Rio Ferdinand Reveals The Training Ground & Dressing Room Secrets That Made United Unbeatable.

[0] How did they create high standards at Old Trafford?

[1] Because I want to create high standards in my team and within my life.

[2] You must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't.

[3] What are the things that matter?

[4] If people were in 10, 20 years, say, that's Rio pay for my United.

[5] I haven't really done what I'm here to do.

[6] Do I even need to introduce my next guest?

[7] Rio Ferdinand, former football player, one of the most decorated English footballers of all time, and as the Man United fan, probably one of my favourite players of all time ever.

[8] And he's played alongside some of the greatest players ever, but he's also been managed by the best manager ever.

[9] I grew up as a Manchester United fan watching him, idolising him.

[10] And now he's my mate.

[11] So this is going to be a fairly interesting conversation.

[12] After retiring, he's become a sports commentator for BT Sport.

[13] He's the founder of a charity, a foundation.

[14] He's a non -executive director, which he'll talk about today as well.

[15] And as you'll hear, he's also so much more.

[16] Some things that you probably wouldn't expect.

[17] He's also a husband and a dad.

[18] One that's experienced tremendous unthinkable tragedy.

[19] Tragedy, I pray, that most of us will never know.

[20] Rio is a special guy, not least for what he's achieved on the field, but for who he is.

[21] And today, you're going to find out who he actually is.

[22] the philosophy to life that he swears by and the culture required to win in an ambitious career, but also the culture required to win in your personal life.

[23] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the diary of a CEO.

[24] I hope nobody's listening.

[25] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[26] I'm trying to find the right words to ask this question because it's one that I haven't seen been asked in previous interviews of you, but what are the key things that happened when you were very, very young that made you choose football as your future or enabled you to take that path because a lot of kids grow up in London, a lot of kids do a lot of things, they have a lot of passions.

[27] But for some reason, as I read through your story, football was this ballet as well, but football was the path that you chose to take above all other things.

[28] Yeah, it's a good question.

[29] Because when I was younger, I was into everything.

[30] I were running around on the estate.

[31] I was doing gymnastics a couple of times a week i was doing ballet i was obviously playing football i was doing athletics i was doing a drama class why were you doing all those things there because i just was interested in it all i liked it i enjoyed it and my mom and dad were really my mom especially were really like if you like something go on do it try it they were always like that go on do it what's the worst it can do is you you don't enjoy it i used to do karate sometimes as well and I got to a point I think I was like 13 or 14 years old and obviously my dad was having to come from east like obviously we live in south London he'd drive to east north east London drive home pick me up from school take me to west London to play football and back to dropping friends off on the way it's hard graft and in the end I got to 13, 14 years old and my dad said listen you're doing a lot at the moment you're going to burn yourself out so let's just pick something that you really enjoy and you want to do and just go for it and i was like it was like an easy conversation it was difficult in that i had to let down i thought and disappoint central school of ballet where i was doing it which is a real like a top school in london in farringdon um and i made good friends there and the other stuff i wasn't too that concerned about it but four years i was three or four years i was at the central school of ballet so i'd got good relationships there told them i couldn't do it and then went full throttle and full steam ahead with football and it was just it was the best decision obviously made in my life in that sense but i was i knew that that was my passion i liked the other stuff i enjoyed doing the other stuff there were good distractions from what was probably going on my estate as well probably my parents thought like that as well but football was there's something that i got up every day from when i knocked on my friends house borough ship all just go and play football etc so ballet um interesting one a lot of people don't know know that you did ballet but the sounds that you did at a pretty good level yeah i've done gymnastics uh gymnastics at the london olympic games and they obviously i didn't notice there were scouts there from from ballet schools or someone was watching or a family friend was there and they said oh he looks like you might i don't know how what i had or what i was my posture or something like that looks good to be a ballet dancer so i went there and i wasn't really one for saying no to stuff i was like i'll try it i'll try anything and they said and one of the reasons I was going to be able to get off my estate, meet new people, new girls, maybe, as a young kid.

[32] And then it was in a different part of London, travelling.

[33] So I've done it.

[34] It's funny.

[35] I read a tweet the other day, which was kind of linked to something you said there, and it said, on the way up, say yes to everything.

[36] When you get to the top, start saying no to everything.

[37] Yeah, yeah.

[38] And it's like, and I'm almost saying that as well when we, the conversation we're having now about like the stuff you're up to now.

[39] Try it.

[40] Yeah.

[41] What's the, I always think this, what's the worst?

[42] that can happen.

[43] As long as it's not a health issue.

[44] I might fail.

[45] I might not be good at it.

[46] I might fail.

[47] Who cares?

[48] It's like with a boxing.

[49] I wanted to go trying to be from a professional footballer.

[50] Just trying to be a professional boxer.

[51] Crazy.

[52] Yeah.

[53] But what's the worst that can really happen?

[54] I lose a fight.

[55] My life goes on.

[56] That's it.

[57] But some people, they can't allow their ego to be squashed maybe at a certain point or their pride and they're sitting there as this macho person.

[58] They can't feel vulnerable at any point.

[59] And when you try things, there is an element of vulnerability that comes with that, because you're opening yourself up, you're leaving yourself a bit wide open for criticism, for failure.

[60] But I'm not scared of failure.

[61] I never have been.

[62] I'm not, I'm not fearful.

[63] And that's what I try and put in my kids.

[64] If you fail, what's, what, get up and go again?

[65] People like, they trap themselves in their career and their sense, their sort of self -identity, because we were talking before we started chatting about, like, me trying to resist my labels and I've left social chain, they think they are an X. But from a very, very young age, and I'm kind of connecting the dots now through the rest of your life, and even now, you were a kid on the estate in Peckham, and that is an identity.

[66] That's not one that's also conducive with ballet.

[67] No, it's just such, like the different ends of the spectrum.

[68] Like, you just wouldn't associate one with the other.

[69] And again, I wasn't, we were speaking, just as you mentioned before, before he came on here.

[70] One of the things that my mum used to say to me is that don't let anyone tell you what you are.

[71] Don't be pigeonholed.

[72] I mean you go and find out and explore and find out what you are and you've got to have experiences to get to that point it's not going to happen overnight it's not going to happen in your childhood not in your teens when you get to become an adult you'll start working your way and finding out who you are and what you are and I've always thought that so going to a ballet school I could have been ridiculed my mates I was one of the boys on the estate but at the same time I was confident enough that oh you're going ballet laughing I don't care what and I know I'm good at football I know I'm a fastest runner on the estate in my age group I can keep up with older boys because I go ballet, there's nothing wrong.

[73] Who are you?

[74] And to answer that question, your mum's telling you to go out and find out who you are.

[75] Did you ever answer that question?

[76] Not really.

[77] I think that question you don't really answer it in the end.

[78] I think you're always evolving.

[79] It's like, for instance, it's something you said earlier, it pricked my ears about, you said more or less the same thing, just in a different way, probably a more eloquent way, about not wanting to be pigeonholed.

[80] and my aim in my life now like people think you've played football and you've done all these amazing things as a footballer I've done really well at football I acknowledge that but slight in the statement but I don't that's not enough for me like my next phase of my life I don't want to be remember when someone sees me my success in my next phase of life is when someone sees me and says that's Rio, do you know Rio and they mention something that I'm doing or I've done around that time not that's Rio as a footballer If people were in 10, 20 years, say that's Rio Pays for May United, I ain't really kicked on.

[81] I haven't really done what I'm here to do, to setting out to do, which is to evolve and become something different and make something of myself somewhere else.

[82] And I think my family were a lot like that.

[83] Whether my mum and that was successful or not, they were always to us, make something of yourself, be something.

[84] Nothing, there's no barriers to that.

[85] So that's the way I've always kind of thought about things.

[86] What if I said to you now, how would you feel if I said you couldn't ever do anything else and that, like the football thing was it and now I'd just...

[87] I'd just laugh, I'd laugh.

[88] It would make me laugh because I don't see no, I don't see barriers.

[89] Yeah.

[90] And I'm fortunate as well, by the way.

[91] I understand that, that I've got to a position where there are a lot of boundaries that have been kind of put down for me to skip over because of my career as a footballer.

[92] Yeah.

[93] And you're getting that now as someone who's been really successful for in your field.

[94] So you see that colour and age, etc, get put to the side because we acknowledge what you've done.

[95] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[96] And so we do sometimes have a easy, there's not as big a barrier to entry for certain things for us, but then you've still got to go in and produce.

[97] You've still got to go and prove yourself.

[98] And so even things like I've gone on the board now for a company, the gym group, as a ned.

[99] Oh, really?

[100] Yeah, which is out of my comfort zone because I like fitness, but I don't understand the business behind that and what goes into having a actual having 125 180 sites and managing that and there's a property arm and there's a commercial arm and there's a market and that all coming together under one umbrella and having to manage all that and to be a part of those conversations like that stuff is what I'm super interested in that type of stuff in the workings behind the mechanics of all these type of businesses in different industries so that's like do you not feel out of your depth yeah but I always find something what I can clear on to that I'll just try and find something within a conversation that would allow me to gain confidence through talking in that conversation.

[101] Do I mean?

[102] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[103] I might not understand everything.

[104] And when the conversation's finished and the laptop's closed, I'll be somewhere looking and finding out, I didn't understand that I'll call that person back or I'll call someone on that call just to clear up a few things I haven't quite grasped.

[105] But there'll be something within that conversation where I feel that I can add some sort of value.

[106] I think all of that is a very, again, very synonymous as to why you're like even sat here today because a lot of people in that situation would A, just fucking avoid it from the jump.

[107] And then B, if they encounter something they don't understand on the call, they'll probably bounce then.

[108] Or they definitely wouldn't inquire because by inquiring, you're actually making yourself vulnerable.

[109] A lot of people don't want to avoid vulnerability, right?

[110] And being exposed.

[111] And it's so funny that the people that, from what I'm hearing from me, like the people that achieve the most success are the ones that are at some point willing to look fucking stupid.

[112] Yeah, you've got to.

[113] No one gets to where they're going to get on the cleanest without a bump on the road.

[114] Yeah.

[115] You have to have bumps in the road to be able to get there to experience them vulnerable moments so that when you are there, you know what it's like.

[116] And then you can drag people up with you.

[117] Yeah, yeah.

[118] And you become stronger with more people.

[119] So I always think, there's a lot of people want to get to the top and stay on the mountain on their own and don't want to bring no one up.

[120] I don't agree with that.

[121] I'm always like, I want to share and help.

[122] and because that is the foundations of me being stronger for a longer period of time and can sustain success.

[123] But it is, I don't know, it's an important thing for me as well, which I'm, again, I'm never scared to do is to ask questions.

[124] Like, it's the same thing with football.

[125] You don't understand something what a manager is telling you or a coach is telling you, don't go away and have a bit of a blurred idea of what it is because then you're going to be judged on that, not understanding, executing.

[126] It's going to repeat.

[127] Exactly.

[128] So you want good habits, but you've got to understand what it is before you can create the habit.

[129] So that's what I'll try and always ask questions.

[130] If I'm wrong, if I feel I'm not sure or certain, I'll definitely ask questions.

[131] Isn't that crazy?

[132] You've, you know, you've achieved all the success.

[133] You're a football legend.

[134] And yet you're still voluntarily throwing yourself into really uncomfortable situations, which you don't need to be in.

[135] Yeah.

[136] In terms of finance anyway, like you don't need to be it or in terms of like a status.

[137] You don't need to be there.

[138] And it's funny because there's loads of people that are haven't achieved that that are that will never throw themselves into uncertainty but it's but again this is probably why you're the ones that stay where they are yeah exactly this probably why you sat here yeah they don't grow they don't yeah and like and all those people who will stay there some of them are like oh I just want to stay here but a lot of them are they're scared to open up because of that vulnerability and them feeling silly if they're told oh you got it wrong but it's not I'm not like that everyone's on this earth for different reasons and some people happy just be like stay in a situation they're in and be very happy just going along that road and no spikes or drops.

[139] I'd rather have a drop at some point, but to get, I know that spike's going to come somewhere through being able to do the things we're talking about.

[140] In your group chat with your friends from your estate, I had there's a group chat.

[141] I've been doing the research.

[142] I didn't need to research your career because I was there watching, but just, you know, I was intrigued by when you said, you've got this group chat with your friends from back home and stuff.

[143] And one of the topics and conversation is something that I talk about a lot in this podcast, which is there's a growing culture of like softness, dare I say it, and like avoiding discomfort.

[144] And also there's this crazy thing on Instagram at the moment, which is like demonizing hard work as if it's like, because of the mental health revolution we've had, which is a great thing and everyone's aware of the impact, you know, of this thing called mental health.

[145] There's now this other thing which is like, well, you can overwork and you can burn yourself out and hard work.

[146] If I advise it as an entrepreneur, even though I've never met someone or had anyone sit in this seat who didn't work hard, then I'm somewhat toxic because I'm telling people that success and hard worker.

[147] Yeah.

[148] Yeah.

[149] And it's like you're looking down on people, almost.

[150] Like, and listen, I don't agree with none of that.

[151] I've got to be honest.

[152] Work hard, man. That should be just an absolute normal ask of any person.

[153] And I always keep talking about my kids because they're a big part of my life but that's all I talk about my kids when they talk to me about school football washing up your chores that's what's been one of the great things that we've had a lot of negativity about the the COVID situation in this country staying at home etc at home schooling but one of the great things to come out of it for us as a family these kids know their chores and they're doing them properly and that's what I say do your choice right because them habits there will lead on to other things in your life going forward your football stuff you won't take short cuts you're taking shortcuts there of your work shortcuts with your football shortcuts making your bed shortcuts with your schoolwork homework etc it will all be the same you I need high standards everywhere but are you scared that because they've grown up in a different circumstance to what you had I always have this conversation gone yeah you know what you're not going to say yeah I'm trying to instill that in in them how do you do that when they're living in like a really nice house and they've got that is that The guy who comes up with this, the answers for that is the main man. Because it's so difficult.

[154] I was doing a podcast yesterday with Eddie Hearn.

[155] And he's like the generation, my children are.

[156] So his father was well off, successful.

[157] And he was where my children are now.

[158] And he was saying, like, one of the things that he was, he was scared of being that rich kid.

[159] Yeah.

[160] Do you mean?

[161] And so he's done everything not to go out and work and to go and have a hard, hard work.

[162] mentality and to be a success himself.

[163] Our friend, Umar, was the same.

[164] Umar is exactly.

[165] So Umar's a lived, all, all three of them, by the way, I like that.

[166] All three of the, come on your kids, do I mean, they're exactly the same in terms of, they've gone out to, they never had to work, their parents would spoil them, and they've all knuckled down and said, yeah, we've been given an opportunity.

[167] Now you've got to go and execute and they've gone executed beyond belief.

[168] Yeah.

[169] And I see Mahmoud, who's...

[170] The owner of Behoo.

[171] of boohoo who's the father of Umar and the guys and this is what I say to him man you must be so happy man what you mean your kids man what they're doing how hard they work created these wicked businesses but you gave them an opportunity but what they've done with that you can't be disappointed he said no man he said for me to sit here and just see them what they're doing what they're doing that's where I want to be man and it doesn't matter how much money you make or how big of the business my success as a parent is that my kids get up every day, they've got a work ethic and they do stuff to the best of their ability.

[172] If they do that, whatever job they're in, they do that, and I think you've laid the foundations for a good life for your kids.

[173] Whether it's in, you know, you talk there about having high standards being one of the really important things for your kids.

[174] This is something that clearly, you know, was demonstrated when you got to Old Trafford and you joined Manchester United for that record transfer.

[175] But how did they create high, standards at Old Trafford versus the other clubs you'd played at what, you know, West Ham and Leeds, etc. What was it they were doing that kept those standards so high?

[176] You then also talk about going to KPR and seeing low standards and a certain type of negativity in the changing room.

[177] But what was it that they were doing or not doing?

[178] Because I want to create high standards in my team and within my life.

[179] Good habits.

[180] Right.

[181] Every day good habits.

[182] Whether it's punctuality.

[183] Again, work ethic.

[184] attention to detail, intensity when you're training on a training pitch, respecting each other.

[185] All those things just, they come together and it creates a culture at the club.

[186] And I've been at West Ham, I've been at Leeds, two very good clubs, great clubs.

[187] But they didn't have that culture, which meant there was an ability to win.

[188] But it starts from somewhere.

[189] So Alex Ferguson, we already won at Aberdeen.

[190] Dean.

[191] So he knew how to create that culture.

[192] He went to Man United, didn't have that winning mentality at the time when he went there.

[193] He created that.

[194] And it all stems.

[195] I always think great leadership is definitely what gives you an opportunity to be successful.

[196] And I noticed that throughout my career.

[197] And when you've set the foundations and you've created that culture, you don't as a leader have to be there every day in that sense.

[198] He was at a training ground every day.

[199] How many times do you think he came into our change room?

[200] No idea.

[201] You wouldn't feel one hand.

[202] Really?

[203] No. Never came in a change room in the training ground where they're every day.

[204] Because he knew that the culture was set and then he had lieutenants like me, Giggsie, Gary Neville, etc., who were then filtering that down to any of the younger players on new signs who didn't know the culture yet.

[205] And then those players became the culture leaders.

[206] And so it was crazy, man. And even, for instance, if he wasn't at a training ground watching training, the training intensity might drop that little 1 %.

[207] 2%, but you'd notice it because the manager's not there.

[208] Because he wasn't in the building.

[209] Because he wasn't, you didn't feel him that aura, that he could be on his phone making bets, which you normally would be, not interested in training, but his presence alone was enough.

[210] And it just made, when you look back and you think leadership is just key.

[211] And we're talking about investing earlier.

[212] Yeah.

[213] You don't invest in the leader.

[214] The people, yeah.

[215] The people.

[216] Like, it's so important, I think.

[217] And I think every industry, it's like that.

[218] Football's where I'm from and that's what it's like there.

[219] but I see since I've retired, that's replicated in other industries, 100%.

[220] Isn't it funny as well with culture?

[221] Because what you said there is basically like, something I used to think at social chain, which is if the culture is strong enough, new people become like the culture.

[222] If this culture's weak, the culture becomes like the new people.

[223] 100%.

[224] You couldn't have put it any better.

[225] And I'll give you an example.

[226] Like, and again, I didn't say it as eloquently as that when I was made football, but...

[227] Berbertoff came to May United.

[228] Oh, yeah, casual burbs.

[229] He was wicked player, beautiful touch, sexy looking footballer, wicked.

[230] And before Big Champions League, I think it was Barcelona, he just weren't working hard enough for the team.

[231] And I had the ball on this side of the pitch, and I needed him to come over and help.

[232] He's just walking, like, and I ended up just kicking the ball off and going crazy.

[233] What are you doing?

[234] Get over.

[235] Wait, when I get over, then we'll do it.

[236] And that's, again, that's not our culture.

[237] At Barcelona, they play, they wait That's their culture, that's not our culture You want to play Barcelona, wait, go Barcelona Here, it's not the same And if you don't buy into our culture, you won't be here long And that's the way it was at United If you came and you weren't in the, you didn't buy into the culture And immerse yourself in it And become part of the fabric of the place You weren't there more than a year or two Or you definitely wasn't an integral member of that squad And so it was definitely like you say the culture is just you have to become part of that culture that you go into if it's strong enough.

[238] You see this in business, it's crazy.

[239] You should do, I feel like the perspective you've got from being in that changing room and understand, because it's the same principles in business.

[240] It was the same at social chain when we grew the company and I realized that I had to be like...

[241] Did you drive that?

[242] 100%.

[243] And it got to the point where what you've described is people would understand who we were without us having to say and you'd have your disciples basically introducing new people to the company.

[244] and going, that's not a social chain thing to do.

[245] And we'd get that all the time.

[246] You'd say people in the office would go, and for example, and the crazy, the other point I was going to say is, when the culture is that strong, it's so easy to see when someone doesn't fit or they don't stand out.

[247] We had, you know, someone start on their first day at social chain, and they were doing their initiation, and then at the end of the initiation, they did two middle fingers, and then walked back to their desk.

[248] I said, go get him, we fired him, it's gone.

[249] First day at social chain.

[250] And then the second instance where, and it sends a message to the team because they, I never knew, It was instinctive to me. I said, that's not such a person, get them out.

[251] There was another instance where we had a girl join who someone had hired, and they told me that she used to bully people at her last place and she had a really bad attitude and stuff.

[252] And actually, one of the guys, two of the guys in our team said, oh, yeah, we used to work with her and she was a bit of a bully.

[253] So I remember having the conversation, and I said, you can't, like, in a very, very nice way, I said, she can't be here tomorrow because that's not who we are here.

[254] And my team were like, but we need her for this client.

[255] We need her for this project.

[256] I was uncompromising.

[257] I said, no, we're not having her here.

[258] I don't care if we lose the job.

[259] You know, I can't, I used to say to my team, I can't have my name attached to a culture like where we have people in it who are like that.

[260] So she's gone today.

[261] We'll figure it out if we lose the client, whatever.

[262] And it wasn't until years later that you hear the team come back to you and they say that moment where you weren't willing to let that person we needed in the team because they weren't right for the culture.

[263] The team said that to me. And it's exactly what I hear from you.

[264] I'm not blowing smoke at my own ass because I didn't realize that time.

[265] But you've recognised that.

[266] It wasn't intentional.

[267] It was, I just wanted to enjoy my life in the company to be a really, really clear certain way and I felt that that's what we needed to do to succeed and in hindsight, and as you say it to me, I'm like, oh yeah, it was being unnegotiable, right?

[268] Yeah, and that's what Sirix Ferguson was great at.

[269] If he saw something that was going to be detrimental to the culture of the club, it was out.

[270] That was a non -negotiable.

[271] Even if you needed them.

[272] So you look at Roy Keene.

[273] Yeah, yeah.

[274] He was the captain, was the leader.

[275] The rules been broken, you're gone.

[276] David Beckham Peak of his powers Going out of a Spice Girl Bringing all sorts of eyeballs To the football club Making it an international play See you later Yapsdam The best centre half in the world at the time Said something about some of the players In a book or something Goodbye Rud van Istroy The best number nine in the world At the time Goodbye Like If you don't fit the culture And you don't adhere to the rules That are there Good night and we'll move on and we'll build around other people it's crazy and at the time you sit there and you think Bex you can't sell Bex man Jesus who's going to come in like number seven sells all the shirts like everyone loves him everywhere we go Bex is like a Beatles like crazy same with Rudrana and you're thinking how are we going to score goals now man who's going to score us to goals Rooney and Ronaldo are really young still inexperienced but he had that belief and that vision just to like, it was the culture over everything.

[277] No one's bigger in the club.

[278] Yeah, no one's bigger than the club.

[279] It's so true, man. And again, like you say, that reverberates around a dressing room.

[280] Right, you better stay in line.

[281] You better just like live by the rules that are here already and stay part of that culture, the hard work, the intensity, the respect.

[282] And so that he would dig out the most experienced player who hasn't even done anything.

[283] And you sit there and go, what are you shouting at me for?

[284] but he was doing that to you because he knew you could take it but the effect they don't have on the young ones or the other ones do you know what I mean so playing the mind games man I love it it's good but you only the mind thing is when you're in it like you're saying you're talking about social chain you probably didn't realize at the time but when you sit back and you're outside and you look back in that bubble you think shit man yeah that's why I didn't think about it but that's why I'd done it yeah yeah and I'm right now or I'm wrong whatever it is do I mean that's how we think about like certain things that Fergie done, you think actually he weren't just lucky, man. He actually obviously was plotting and planning that type of stuff.

[285] I wonder how much of that stuff was intentional with him, though, in terms of like, I'm sure he wasn't going in the back room and planning it.

[286] It's just like, surely it's just like who he was.

[287] And I sometimes think, you know, you get managers that will come into clubs and they'll try and be like Fergie.

[288] But you can't because you can't act for that long and that consistently.

[289] Because from what you're saying about Fergie, it's like, it's not like four things he's doing, it's a thousand things he's doing consistently, which show his values, right?

[290] And you can't act for 27 years, whatever it is, across a thousand touch points.

[291] So it makes me feel like how do you teach that?

[292] Like, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, a, it was, it was, a, it was, a, a, a valuable amount of experience gained in that time.

[293] But I always look at it like when I went into the main night of change room, I sat there and just looked around and thought, who's good at what, and let me just take elements of these people and add it to my game and my preparation and my recovery.

[294] And that's what I've done.

[295] Ryan Giggs was great at recovery and preparation, done yoga and stuff like that, took that out of his book.

[296] Roy Keene leadership, the way he demanded standards on a daily basis, skulls, the best levels in training every day.

[297] All them things, I was just trying to be like little parts of different people.

[298] And then that allows hopefully for you to grow into a better person, a better player, etc. And I think that's the same with other industries and business since I retired.

[299] It's like you go in and try and be like someone else, you're going to fail because you can't be like the original.

[300] But if you're taking bits from elsewhere, you might be able to get beyond that, what you see is the best, because you're getting more.

[301] you're taking more good things from that person, but then from various other people to build maybe past that.

[302] And that's the way I'll try and work with stuff now in my life.

[303] There's no one person that's going to make me the best of what I want to be.

[304] But a group and taking from everywhere, I've got a better chance.

[305] People never talk about the things that Fergie was bad at.

[306] Well, Roy Keen does.

[307] But other than that, I never hear people saying, and I've got his book somewhere knocking around as well.

[308] But you never hear players talking about some of the things where you think, do you know what, I actually think he would have been more successful if he didn't do that thing.

[309] Do you know, it's weird, when people die or when people retire, you only remember the good stuff, really.

[310] Interesting.

[311] You only think about what they were, their existence before becomes magnified and they're built up even bigger sometimes.

[312] And Fergie, I think that's with him as well, because you just don't, you don't think, I can think of instances or tactics he got wrong.

[313] That's easy to find, but, But he'd always make stuff right.

[314] It was weird.

[315] Like, even for instance, the anti -racism stuff.

[316] And the situation, I saw the documentation my brother, brother -done.

[317] Yeah, yeah.

[318] Yeah, so he went a couple of the wards, actually, yesterday.

[319] I saw it in your story as well.

[320] Yeah, so he, the situation happened with him and John Terry.

[321] And I decided not to wear the next, well, one of, during that period, once a year, all the teams are given T -shirts, show racism the red card, or kick racism out one of the campaigns.

[322] I wasn't willing to wear it because I didn't believe that they supported enough during that time.

[323] So I said, I'm not wearing it.

[324] He went crazy, find me. I was like, we end up winning the game, which was okay, which was lucky.

[325] But the next day, I went into his office to just try and explain to him why I hadn't won the T -shirt.

[326] And to be fair, he said, you know what, I understand.

[327] And I'm sorry for the way I reacted.

[328] Like stuff like that He might make a mistake Or he'd done that wrong But he'd always rectify it It'd always come back around You'd get you back around somehow And because he was just like a I don't know He just he knew how to deal with people He knew how to treat people To get the best out of them For what his main goal was How'd you teach that?

[329] I don't know man That's just a stuff I think that's something that's inside Being able to deal with people Read people Treat your team Do you mean So that they're running through brick walls for you Because he'd come in a room and he'd say to you, you're not playing.

[330] And I'd be, you'd want to scream and you'd be like, blood will be boiling.

[331] But he'd leave the room and you go into a change room.

[332] And you're sitting in there, jean everyone up.

[333] Come on, boys.

[334] Not sulking.

[335] Because he's told you Tuesday you're playing, because I need you for that game.

[336] You miss this one.

[337] This is a big game, but you're going to play on Tuesday.

[338] Like, normally you miss a game.

[339] You want to go home and cry about it.

[340] Do you mean?

[341] But he's managed to build you back up.

[342] And that's my management.

[343] And in any industry, that's like a massive part of, again, the culture, but maintain and sustaining a successful company or a successful football club.

[344] You need to be able to build people, pick them up, knock them down sometimes, but be able to keep them on that track with you.

[345] The contradiction I hear within like the story you recount of Sir Alex versus the one I've seen in the newspapers is you hear about the, you know, kicking the football boot at Beckham.

[346] And this guy who in the sidelines looks like he's out of control.

[347] but what you're describing is like super self -aware.

[348] Yeah, calculated.

[349] And he's actually pretending to be out of control when he needs to be.

[350] We used to talk about it all the time, especially me and Amanja Vidich.

[351] And Vida's a deep guy, loves talking about deep style, gets deep into stuff.

[352] Yeah, he loves it.

[353] I thought it's just a murderer.

[354] No, no, he just loves like the beyond behind, how was he thinking about that, etc. We always talk about the manager.

[355] And like, you look back and it's like anything, everything he'd done was like calculated.

[356] like the way he spoke on the TV blaming the ref so very rarely did he come on he didn't come on TV and ever hammer none of the players individually we could lose a game and the referee will be the back page the next day but he's taking the heat of us he's making us think about it's not us we're not down in the doldrums it's because of the referee that's dangerous sometimes because you've got his self accountability but he makes there's enough self accountability in the building but also the first Focus is over there now, not on us as a team.

[357] So we go again without that pressure.

[358] Oh, they've lost.

[359] They're not as good anymore.

[360] But the referee was the reason.

[361] Do I mean?

[362] Just like, that's just like calculated, this is what I'm doing for the goodness of my team.

[363] And the betterment of my team is good, man. But people think anger, and like you were a player that wasn't afraid to shout at someone.

[364] I heard you talking about some of the plays you gave a hard time like Anderson, etc. Still.

[365] In the WhatsApp group.

[366] Yeah, really?

[367] Yeah.

[368] What role does anger play in leadership?

[369] then, because you see it in football, but if I were to start screaming at people in the same way that you did to, I don't know, Berber or whatever, imagine if I just fucking kick this table and said to the team, what the fuck?

[370] The camera's not working.

[371] I would be, I'd be cancelled, everyone would walk out.

[372] Yeah.

[373] I talk about this with my missus quite a lot now.

[374] We're like, some of the stuff that we are, when I went talking about memories and whatnot and how we spoke to Sonsor or what's happening in the change room, would never happen in the office.

[375] Because it's like, you say it's like that relationship's over.

[376] It's gone too far Whereas you can have a fight at football And then you're shaking hands And having a laugh and a shower after It's so different It's just a different way of working But I think it's understanding people I don't think you treat any two people the same In that sense Like the blanket treatment I don't think is the best way To treat a team Because everyone's different Everyone takes advice differently Everyone takes criticism differently So you've got to be able to pick the right people To be able to shout out to pick the right people you've got to get an arm round.

[377] And that's about, as again, a manager, a captain, knowing that team, knowing that the players individually, all this coming into work and ghosting everybody is, Matt, I don't get it.

[378] I don't think you can create that environment for success if you're going to come in and not know nobody.

[379] And another one of these, Sir Alex's great traits, is that he knew everything about everyone.

[380] Like if you're, my granddad was in hospital once.

[381] met my granddad probably twice in the players lounge after a game knew my granddad's favorite drink brandy a flower was turned up on my mom's house do I mean it's like that stuff there then people are coming to work for you every day after stuff like that little things little details not any time out of your diary really his PA's probably done it all but his name's at the bottom it's like big it's little percentages like that are just a key.

[382] It's funny because those little gestures help you know that he does care about you, regardless of what happens on the training ground or in the match.

[383] Fundamentally, he cares about you and wants you to do well.

[384] And he's, you know what I mean?

[385] You're not enemies, you are in.

[386] So I think by him setting that as the foundation, it's clear that having that as a foundation allows him to put pressure on in the right places, it seems.

[387] Yeah.

[388] And you're not his mate.

[389] Yeah.

[390] Well, really?

[391] No, you're not his mate.

[392] I speak to him more now than I did when I played.

[393] Really?

[394] because there was that line and that he felt it was always needed to be there that we can have a little laugh here and there but in the end of the day I'm the manager you guys do your thing there and have a laugh etc but then there's that line you don't go past so but you just got it right and I think that's down to experience as well he would have learnt that and a lot of the guys used to say he was even crazy before you guys came when he was younger so he's obviously and he worked out as well the new generation of players couldn't take that anger and that craziness, like the old generation.

[395] Like probably my generation, probably the last generation that you could do that with.

[396] The next ones, the younger ones, that Andersons, the Narnis, the Rinaldos, etc. That's not the way that they don't respond as well to that type of criticism and anger and aggressiveness.

[397] What was the anger issue you ever saw him?

[398] Too many times The times when he kicked the boot at Bex's head was a And you're in there Crazy one, yeah That was crazy What happened?

[399] What was the anger issue You ever saw him?

[400] Too many times Time when he kicked the boot At Bex's head was a And you're in there Crazy one, yeah That was crazy What happened?

[401] It was It was mad It was funny It was actually funny I've got to be honest I can't laugh But the manager He kicked the boot in anger because he asked Bex's to do something tactically that he didn't carry out and he booted the...

[402] And listen, anybody, I don't care Ronaldo playing to nail Messi wouldn't have hit the target the way he hit the target.

[403] It was so clean and the ball went in slow -mo like bang.

[404] And it hit him in the head and then obviously Bex was upset, got up and I just remember the gaffer was devastated you could tell you could see when he looked at him and he sat down and he was just slumped almost like that's not what he'd done he kicked the boot for.

[405] kicked it in anger and it accidentally hit back in the head so he looked devastated with it but that was one it was i had had a few scrapes of him in terms of i didn't agree with things that he'd done a couple of times and i was screaming and he didn't he didn't take too well to it and he lost it and he just would go purple over the top of you and just spray you screaming in front of you like that like crazy so but he was what it was never personal which is that why you respected it and you kind of it kind of always was washed away because he you knew that deep down you just want you to do well do i mean it wasn't vindictive it wasn't personal just do what i'm telling you to do and you will win i heard you say that that culture isn't there now it's it's all friendly now on it everyone's mates everyone's like for instance everyone's mates and commenting on each other's posts on social media so You're more attached to someone.

[406] You're more involved with someone.

[407] Whereas before, I would only see certain players twice a year, home and away.

[408] So I've got no attachment to you.

[409] So to me, have a bit of venom or to go at you a little bit, was normal.

[410] And I've got no qualms about doing that because I ain't going to see you again.

[411] Don't care.

[412] I might see you at England camp or something like that, but I don't, that's like three or four times a year.

[413] So we're colleagues.

[414] Exactly.

[415] We're not really matey.

[416] Whereas now, in the tunnel, they're all shaking, cuddling, yeah, man, comment on your post you the other day.

[417] It's very different.

[418] I'm not saying it's bad, but it's just different.

[419] Is it bad?

[420] So, I don't know, it's just like, it's different.

[421] So going into battle, into a game, I've got no emotional ties or no social media ties to anybody.

[422] So I can, there seem to be that bit more.

[423] I don't know if there's more passion before to now, but it seemed to be like there was.

[424] because and I think all of this stuff with social media makes it a bit more fluffy and people are hugging and shaking hands and whatnot now because they've spoken or had a message or liked a post very different.

[425] Me and my friends in my Manchester United Chat when one of the observations that we have all the time is like why has everyone been so nice to each other and I remember last week there was a tweet went out from one of the United press people and it was just a quote of something Harry McGuire said on the field and he'd basically he screamed, I don't know, rash or someone else.

[426] Yeah, and he said, like, get fucking back in line or whatever.

[427] It's like trending on Twitter.

[428] Yeah, yeah, because you don't see it.

[429] Because you don't see it anymore.

[430] And then, and then also, you know, love him, love him or whatever, but watching Olly fist bump the managers with a smile on his face, we've been grown up as United fans with a set.

[431] We would, Fergie would look fucking furious to even have to look at the opposing manager.

[432] And it just feels different now.

[433] And then we look at where we are and how we're performing in the big games and We're not winning like we used to.

[434] And we're all saying, oh, that, you know, we're coming like Arsenal or something.

[435] But we, we, everyone always, like, clings on to the history and it and the past.

[436] That's, that's the problem as a football fan.

[437] I'm the same.

[438] Like, you just want it to be like it was before, please.

[439] Like, but it's never going to be the same.

[440] It may be a successful or even more successful one day, but it will never be the same.

[441] So our expectation then will sometimes just have to change a little bit.

[442] But, yeah, I mean, again, like, it was coming in anyway because, like, for instance, I remember Gerard Piquet, hugging and fist pumping, et cetera, in the tunnel with Fabragas.

[443] And we were mad rivals with Arsenal at that point, like Pizza Gate and all that stuff.

[444] And he got hammered after that PK in our change room.

[445] What are you doing?

[446] Before a game, you were sitting there chatting or would make fun of him a little bit.

[447] There's two different ways you ridicule and get someone in line, either humor or being firm, and he probably got both.

[448] But it was, that was a, you could sense a change coming.

[449] It was coming.

[450] And obviously social media, I think it's accelerated that, definitely.

[451] Ed Woodward as well.

[452] There's a lot of controversy surrounding him at the moment, again, because for better or four worse.

[453] Have you had him on?

[454] No, not yet.

[455] No. It would be good.

[456] Yeah.

[457] When we can travel a little bit more, we'll, I think he'll come on.

[458] But I remember hearing the story about the exit treatment that you had with him.

[459] And I wondered if you were still somewhat bitter about that.

[460] I heard, you know, one of your last games at the club and he comes into the training room and tells you that you're not going to be playing for the club anymore.

[461] you didn't get your send -off.

[462] Yeah, of course.

[463] I think there's nothing that anyone could tell me that wouldn't make me feel that was the wrong way.

[464] Would Fergie have done that?

[465] No. Faggy Zero.

[466] No. You'd have told me before the end of the season because he didn't know what it means, but the difference is that Fergie was a footballer and he knows what it means.

[467] He knows what it is to be able to say thank you for your support, etc. Just have that little runway to a send -off.

[468] Now listen, I understand not everybody can have it that way, But if you've got, if you know and you've got the opportunity to give someone the best possible route out of a situation, you give it to them.

[469] And my situation, I think you could see down the line from a month, two months before that, that you knew what was going to happen with me. So give me the opportunity to have the best possible send off, given the time, given the relationship that I built with the club.

[470] So that was my only discrepancy of the whole way it worked out because it wasn't like, oh, actually a knee joke situation, knee joke decision.

[471] So, but I think, listen, Ed knows how I feel about it, but we've moved on past that.

[472] I speak to him on the phone about various different things anywhere when we meet up sometimes, so it's cool.

[473] But those small moments, that's an isolated incident.

[474] But that isolated incident is attached to a wider philosophy in the same way that Fergie had this, like, wider philosophy of, like, you know, sending your granddad the flowers.

[475] And that's attached to a wider philosophy.

[476] So although that's just one instance, I think the risk that I would see, and when I hear things like that, I think, well, that same philosophy of, like, not really caring, being that empathetic is got to be popping up in other places, right?

[477] Oh, 100%.

[478] And that, again, we've said culture about 10 times already in this conversation.

[479] Yeah.

[480] But that's part of a culture.

[481] Like, there has to be, like, you say, compassion, empathy, respect.

[482] As a family, right?

[483] Like, that's what the club was.

[484] And that was the way I used to explain, man. United.

[485] I left Leeds, which was like a family.

[486] I used to say this is a smaller version without obviously the success, but a smaller version in terms of the people here, been here for 30 years, 40 years, 20 years.

[487] My dad used to work here.

[488] My mom used to work here.

[489] That's a family club.

[490] Man United was that when I was there.

[491] My fear is that it becomes something else.

[492] Some of the waiting staff, I had a box at Man United.

[493] And it's funny, this is a staggering thing.

[494] But for me, because you don't think of the waiting staff in the box are going to notice a cultural shift at the club, right?

[495] But they would tell me, they said to me, you know, when Fergie and David Gill were here, it was different.

[496] How did it touch the waiting staff that served me?

[497] Because they know all their names.

[498] Yes, that's what they said to me. They know all their names.

[499] They had a relationship.

[500] David Gill had a relationship with the person giving me a stake.

[501] And I just thought that was staggering that this, you know, anything of how strong the culture must be and how important it must be for the waiter, giving me, you know, some chips to be like, it's different now.

[502] The dinner lady at the training ground, I actually spoke to her on the way here, funny enough, just me a voice note, but the dinner lady Carol, she could have banter with the manager or David Gill.

[503] Like, first name terms.

[504] Banta that had been spread over a number of years so they could go back and have a proper back and forth.

[505] He knew the name of the groundsman.

[506] But it was like, and if I'm at Man United now, that is part where I'm going.

[507] That has to be recreated.

[508] Bring that back.

[509] Because that's the strength.

[510] Like I said before about strength in numbers.

[511] That's the foundation of the football club.

[512] People come in that place and think, oh my God, they're all May United here.

[513] They all feel part of it.

[514] That creates...

[515] Does that start with Fergie and David at the top?

[516] Yeah, I think it has to.

[517] And that's what I look back on things like that.

[518] And like, you speak to any of the people that work there.

[519] That was a big part of it.

[520] Because everyone thinks it's the first 11 The team, the squad The first team that play That's Man United It's not It's the fans And it's all the people that work behind the scenes To enable that first 11 That team, that squad to go out there and perform If them people around that aren't working That's what they manage you to say All these people The Kitman The Physio Nutritionist The Dinner Lady etc These lot help you enable you to be successful So don't forget that Do you what I mean?

[521] And all those people have an expectation of the performance and like the they all become winners like as a united fan growing up i was like we win yeah 100 % and and and you know as a fan i was like yeah no we come and we win and then at some point when fergy left i'm like i'm not sure really what happens sometimes yeah yeah and you know that crazy thing fergy had in the last couple of minutes of every game where you thought we're gonna fucking win this there's only two minutes left but somehow but you know like the world of things i just mentioned there about the club as well that does that is a byproduct of success as well that becomes easier it's something like a self -fulfilling cycle right exactly when you're winning it's like everything when you're successful and you're winning everything's kind of run smoothly don't it yeah and then obviously when things start to go a little bit wrong you see so many more bumps in the road so many more splinter groups come out and start pointing the finger etc so I just think that it's keeping it getting that culture right and getting the people who feel part of the club and then you win with that as well there's no better kind of and you got to defend it right but defend the culture again because the culture is the thing that made you win and so you might get big people getting too big for their boots or whatever or distracted and then Fergie's just got this great reputation of defending that culture as the most important thing and people say why did he win how did he win for 20 odd years no one else has managed to do that in the modern era and it's just that but it's I always put it down to as well things like dedication desire he was always the first in a training round I used to try and beat him to get in a training round sometimes take my kids to school and get there like we used to start at like half nine used to be in at half nine I used to get in something at eight o 'clock and his car's there already last to leave most of the time that's again that goes back to the point about showing your kids rather than telling them be early, just be there then they know he's always there can't be late why are you late the manager's there He's been 26 years and he's early every day and you're not, he's obviously prepping like you don't do your prep work in the gym, why?

[522] I remember Rakeem pulled a meeting and called a meeting because he thought that the young players weren't doing the extras.

[523] Why are you going home before an experienced player there?

[524] Is that we said to them?

[525] Yeah, when you're in the start of the ladder.

[526] What's we called an actual meeting?

[527] Yeah, so he just said to the lads, listen, like after training or before training, all come in a change room.

[528] And everyone sat down and he was like, listen, I've got to say it because I'm seeing it every day and it ain't good for the club.

[529] Some of you young boys, I'm seeing you, and some of even the players are a little bit older than that.

[530] But how can you be going home before him?

[531] He's doing extras working outside or he goes in the gym or before training.

[532] I see Sanso doing that and you're just messing about in the canteen or something like that.

[533] It's valuable time.

[534] Don't miss it.

[535] Short career.

[536] Things like that.

[537] But that's, again, the manager allowing people to manage a change room.

[538] And that's like it was there.

[539] You had people that managed a change room and you had to manage it, I oversaw it all.

[540] What was the difference between some players that arrive at Manchester United and ultimately end up reaching their potential and then some that don't?

[541] And there's been a lot of, you know, well written about players that never reached their potential.

[542] Was there a commonality that you saw that made it?

[543] Because I'm like Gary Neville.

[544] I'm like, he wasn't the most...

[545] I like the guy.

[546] He's actually managed me once in this charity game.

[547] I like the guy.

[548] But he didn't strike me as the most naturally talented.

[549] talented player.

[550] Hard work.

[551] But he thought, yeah.

[552] Hard work, dedication, attention to detail, application on a daily basis.

[553] Like, this is the thing.

[554] A lot of people think, I've worked hard for two weeks and I haven't got any rewards out of it.

[555] The manager's still not playing me. I'll give up.

[556] That's got to be, we're talking before, a lifestyle.

[557] Hard work every day is a lifestyle.

[558] That should be like the standard.

[559] That's the standard that is here.

[560] And you've got to be at that every day.

[561] There's none of those taking your foot off to pedal because it's difficult Carlos Carroll said to me you can't just switch it on and off like that mentality that intensity the dedication the hard work on the daily but you can't just go I'll work hard on Monday to Wednesday Thursday Friday I'll just chill and then Saturday switch it on again habits lifestyle all the time like that so when it comes to match time it's not a big shift because your body can't do with that your mind can't do with that if it's normalized this is normal on a Saturday 3 o 'clock 60 ,000 people screaming 100 million people right in the world that's not pressure i'll do this every day one of the like alienating things when people might hear you talk and they think oh well almost intimidating it's like well rio's mentality is just so fucking like disciplined and you know he's got it now and no i did listen i weren't perfect this is what i was going to ask is like tell me about tell me how you weren't perfect yeah i weren't perfect it took me a long time to start understanding like your body understanding your mindset and my state of mind had to to be at tip top condition both mentally and physically on a game day and West Ham I didn't have it Leeds I didn't have it because I was inconsistent I was really I train hard but then I'd be going out every other night I'd go out four or five times a week parties pissed West Ham I don't remember a lot of results or certain things when people say what about that game when you I actually can't remember I used to go out and get pissed so often And then I got to Maine United and I just was surrounded by people that had won and I was desperate to win.

[562] So what do you do to win?

[563] I'm going to copy of him, him, him like we spoke about before.

[564] And then you become part of that.

[565] And then you realize that none of these lot are going out all the time.

[566] So if I'm going to go out and continue that lifestyle I had before, my levels are obviously always going to be a bit below these guys because you can't sustain that.

[567] You're always working at from a less from a lower standpoint.

[568] So I changed that.

[569] And listen, I still made mistakes, but my intentions and my desire was to always be as good as I could be.

[570] I wanted to be better than Vida, Vidditch, John Terry, Sol Campbell.

[571] I need to be the best.

[572] When people talk about the best centreback, I need to be the first name on their lips.

[573] So what can I do?

[574] I was that obsessed with it.

[575] Do you know what I mean?

[576] Why?

[577] The Lads wouldn't probably know how obsessed I was with it because I would never show that, really.

[578] But inside, the thought that someone thought that someone else is a better centreback than me used to, like, it would eat away at me. Why?

[579] Because I just, pride, ego.

[580] We all got egos.

[581] You want to be the best.

[582] And I was never ashamed of myself to feel like that.

[583] I'll say that.

[584] I didn't say it at the time because it's etiquette.

[585] It's not the thing to do.

[586] In American sports, they do it.

[587] They talk like that, which I wish we was more.

[588] Because naturally, I'm that type of person.

[589] I would say it.

[590] I think I'm the best on it, so I don't care.

[591] I would say now, I thought I was the best centreback.

[592] But I was always, I just wanted to be the best.

[593] Whether I was or not, it's for other people to decide, but that was always my intention.

[594] You and Vidditch, partnership.

[595] A lot of my friends at the moment, I swear I've been, I'm a big fan of Harry Maguire and what he does, mainly because from what I hear, he's one of the only leaders in the back line, like, you know, always shouting.

[596] What was it that made you and Vich so successful as a partnership?

[597] Because my friends, they'd do anything to have you guys back.

[598] What was it about you two?

[599] Because you're known as, in my opinion, the best centre -back partnership we've ever had.

[600] That's why I'm here, because I knew you'd say that.

[601] I appreciate that, man. No, I don't know, man. He had attributes that just complimented mine and vice versa.

[602] He wanted to go and attack every ball.

[603] Okay.

[604] When the ball got kicked in the skies, he just saw one thing and that was the ball and he was better at that than me but I read stuff and would clean up around all of that and was more of, I don't know I read the game probably a little bit different to him but at the same time I was capable of going up and winning the ball and then he'd do that with me whether he was as good at me it cleaned up or not for people to decide but like I don't know we were just we just compliment each other and what it was there was a pride about our defendant us too so you see a lot of people it's like me I'm the best I want to be the best which is true but the overriding factor of me wanting to be the best is that we don't concede and we're a partnership I'm going to be I got your back and that's what you'll just say before a game Vida you go up I'm behind you don't worry when I go up you're behind me yeah that's all the time you challenge I'm behind you don't worry just go for the ball go for the man take the man in the ball I'm here if it goes wrong and is that having that sense of security for each other.

[605] There was a chant, Vidditch's chant about him being a bit of a murderer.

[606] Yeah, yeah, crazy.

[607] How did he feel about that?

[608] He's quite an unassuming guy.

[609] He's really like, he's not really taken or by anything.

[610] Right.

[611] Did they say that about me?

[612] Oh, cool.

[613] It's good.

[614] Not bad.

[615] Not bad.

[616] And then carries on with life.

[617] Like, he's really just chilled, man. He's so different to what he's like on the pitch.

[618] It's just a chill guy.

[619] He's intense guy, to be fair.

[620] Intense.

[621] And some players may have found him at times quite moody at times and just really like in with what he's doing because he's so intense and he would really like to think about a lot of stuff and probably overthink certain situations but I've gotten really well with him he's one of my closest guys at Maine when I was there.

[622] You still talk to him now?

[623] Yeah, I talk to him now on the text and stuff.

[624] He's living in Milan at the moment.

[625] Oh really?

[626] Yeah.

[627] One of the things that has happened since your playing days is there's been a huge rise in the conversation around mental health.

[628] It wasn't a conversation back then, really.

[629] even for me growing up that didn't know what it meant I'll be completely honest I thought mental health was someone goes crazy psychiatrist yeah yeah just in a straitjacket or something that's why we always thought it was that's all the depiction of someone that's lost their mind and we've come to learn about it in a much different way now we view it as a sort of intrinsic part of health but everyone has mental health and it can sit on some kind of spectrum based on what happens I was wondering back then Like the players in that dressing room, they had mental health then.

[630] They had mental health issues and stuff then.

[631] But I'm guessing it was never addressed.

[632] It was never talked about or...

[633] I've done a documentary on BBC about that grief and bereavement and stuff.

[634] And obviously mental health is a huge part of that.

[635] And I got to understand mental health through that journey of making a documentary.

[636] And understanding that when I played, again, mental health was not a thing at all.

[637] and it was never considered there was no compassion and if you acknowledged your mental health and started to talk about it as I have problems or an issue you was then seen as a weak link whether it was spoke about or not it was there that would be the case that would be how you would see that whole situation and so no one then talks about it through fear of being called the weak link and I look back now and think yeah definitely if we would have been more open If we had today's thought process about mental health, we would have got more out of certain players, definitely.

[638] Really?

[639] Yeah, because Louis Saha, for instance, what a player.

[640] Yeah.

[641] Unbelievable footballer.

[642] Had injuries.

[643] But along with the injuries, that brought a mental health problem for him and, like, a bit depressed and down and whatnot because he felt he was letting everyone down.

[644] That's what you feel when you're injured.

[645] you're letting it your teammates down and it's hard to deal with sometimes especially if you just keep getting little injuries and you come back you go again you come back and people start oh he's always always injured mentally he's not strong is he don't fancy it and as a player you know them conversations are going on so you start thinking about that and when people see you think he's all he's doubts me anyway and so that mental warfare that goes on it could be sorted out through conversation and acknowledging certain things but you're taught in a macho dressing room that talking is seen as a weakness back then.

[646] I think there's big changes now, like you say, the narrative now is very different.

[647] So you'd like to think it's changing and clubs are more aware of that.

[648] I remember watching that documentary.

[649] I think I remember where I was when I watched it because it really, really hit me. And I don't watch a lot of TV, but also it's quite hard to make something impact me. But because you were so vulnerable as someone that I grew up watching as a kid and you were able to be emotional it, yeah, it really hits you in a completely different way tell me about your thought process why you wanted to do that because I'm betting it wasn't easy, right?

[650] No, it was crazy, it was hard man, but it was mainly for my kids, if I'm honest and for everyone else because I wanted my obviously my kids lost, they lost their mum so again, it's like it was about to the same point.

[651] You can't just keep telling them sometimes.

[652] It'd be nice to have something you can just show them and that speaks for itself and is visual as well.

[653] And so they get a clear idea of where we're all at, where we was at and how we've got to this point of hopefully a little bit of healing.

[654] And on that journey, we realized, actually, we're going to help a lot of people here so many more than just selfishly our own family.

[655] So it became like a real, real, a positive journey for us in that sense of working out what it means to talk, to communicate your feelings, how much benefit that is to you as an individual, but also other people, working on relationships and how it can change your relationship when you are talking.

[656] And so, again, it was a difficult journey because you've got to open up, like you say, showed that vulnerable side to you.

[657] And again, that's probably again how we started the conversation.

[658] I wasn't scared to do that.

[659] It was a difficult situation, but I weren't scared of doing that because I knew at the end of the day my kids are going to benefit from this.

[660] And whatever that, however this journey goes, I'm willing to be a part of it for that one reason.

[661] And then when it was, when it was finished and we went a BAFTA in the end with it.

[662] And the great part of it is that you walk down the street or you go down the aisle in the same streets or where a Tesco is and an old age lady or a man come up to you, you know what?

[663] The tear in the eye or something like that and the throat's all croaky and I watch your program.

[664] I've never spoken before really.

[665] You help me. That stuff, that's the reward that you get from something like that that I didn't anticipate.

[666] And one of the things you said when I was, you know, hearing you talk about mental health and really, I guess the crux of the documentary is that the healing comes from opening up and communicating and in fact you might never get over what happened and you don't necessarily need to but it's like when you take it out from the closet in the back part of your mind because you were talking about compartmentalizing it a lot and that was how you were handling it at first and you know I think a lot of the data shows that when you try and compartmentalize grief or trauma but it comes at you in other ways right and it jumps out and you get bad habits you fall into the holes that you never knew were ever possible to go down and then to get back out of them is it becomes it like almost an impossible journey so it was it was and that's how I probably would have been with a lot of stuff in my life before you just compartmentalize it you put it over there you don't think about it but you've never dealt with it you've never got that situation out and unpacked it and then used it to bring some sort of positivity to your life people don't want to open it though no because it's scary yeah vulnerable and it Today I'd rather just get through today than unpack that stuff and feel the...

[667] I have to go through that stuff.

[668] I have to go through them feelings, them emotions, have to have that hurt a little bit again.

[669] But we've said it to the kids all the time.

[670] Like sometimes crying is such a relief sometimes.

[671] And the weight that goes off your shoulder sometimes when you do release that emotion is like, it's crazy.

[672] You can't really put it into words what it feels like at times that you can't really put it into words what it feels like at times that you've had then moments where you felt really down or you're missing someone and then you have a little bit of emotional time on your own or with friends or with family, whatever it is.

[673] And then there's a smile immediately come sometimes out of the back of it because you feel actually I actually feel better now and you move on, you carry on with your day but it is, it's a that type of situation that we've kind of been through it, it's never gone but you learn how to deal with things that bit better all the time what are some of the sort of techniques you use to try it when you do feel down or you feel like you know there's something bugging playing on your mind and stuff and you might be getting about anxious about something is there anything that you've learned from your experiences that helps you um in those moments like outside of talking what strategies or is there one of the things that i was um i've started doing this is that might sound really strange is when i so what will happen with me is something will be playing on my mind and i try and tell myself how you can deal with that you're fine whatever and then three hours later in the shower and you're still thinking about it.

[674] And I know that it's going to harm me if I don't, like, address it.

[675] So I will literally, this sounds like fucking bonkers.

[676] First time I've said this, I'll literally say it out loud and I have this like weird conversation with myself where I say, Steve, like, you're feeling, I'll go literally, you're feeling like this because of this and this.

[677] And yeah, it's making you feel a bit like, you know, it's making you feel a bit bad at the moment or whatever.

[678] But then I try and reason with myself as if I'm talking to someone else.

[679] And it has really helped me. But it makes me feel like a nutter.

[680] Yeah, I understand 100.

[681] 100 % of what you're saying.

[682] But, you know, unfortunate I've got an unbelievable wife who I can talk to.

[683] Like, communication is a massive part and where I've improved in my life, 100%.

[684] So that conversation you're having there, I'll have with my wife.

[685] And I'm lucky.

[686] How she helped you with that?

[687] Oh, massively.

[688] I don't probably tell her enough, but, like, what she's brought to my life in terms of being able to open up to communicate, not only with her, but with my kids now.

[689] I speak to my kids in a different way now in terms of because I know communicating and letting them show their feelings trying to just always if there's a situation that's for instance mother's day just come obviously in my house is quite my mum passed away and the babies their mum passed away as well so mother's days and then Kate's a new mum so there's so many dynamics in the house on that one day the emotional kind of energy in the house on that day is like through the roof and so to manage that and to make it a day where everybody's enjoying it and happy and celebrating Mother's Day is a task in itself but talking to the kids we said a conversation on Mother's Day at the table he was eating food and stuff and it was like my little boy was like I said to him like you don't post anything on Mother's Day do you and he's not an emotional poster anyway you just post about what he likes like football and stuff and whatever so he's like yeah i was actually thinking of doing it this this um this mother's day but like obviously because like i wasn't sure what to what to do like with kate and mum so i didn't know what to do and it was like Kate almost like i think she started crying really because like i don't want you to feel like that post what you feel don't worry about no one else just post what you feel because no one can tell you what you feel and you're not going to disappoint anybody do what you feel do you mean and it's like Those conversations I would never have had with my kids before because I just wasn't, I wasn't in that, in that, in that zone.

[690] I was always very like, again, compartmentalized, very closed, closed, but emotionally zero coming out really.

[691] But that was conditioned because my dad was like that.

[692] Oh, right.

[693] So, and we talk about that in the doctor's well.

[694] My dad was very, very, he wasn't open with his feelings, really.

[695] And old school.

[696] Very old school, West Indian man. So that follows through generations.

[697] So, so yeah, talking is and communicating with the kids and Kate, and she's the one who's really brought that since I've met her in that sense, and I'd never be able to thank her enough of that, just that one element, let alone the other stuff that she's brought to the table.

[698] You just said you don't talk to her, and you think you might not talk to her enough, though.

[699] I don't tell her enough, maybe.

[700] How, how, I tell everyone else, like, all my mates know that she's been unbelievable for us, she's like, oh, you don't tell her.

[701] I probably don't tell her enough sometimes.

[702] And sometimes I have conversations and I'll go, yeah, but I told her, I was like, you done it, and you said, oh, you told them before me, like, which is crazy, really, isn't it?

[703] You should really just tell that person.

[704] Why don't you?

[705] I don't know, it's the old me still about.

[706] Really?

[707] Probably, yeah.

[708] Probably the old me is still about, I don't know.

[709] And sometimes a bit, like, shy, not shy, I'm embarrassed, maybe, I don't know.

[710] To say that, yeah.

[711] But it's, yeah, I should.

[712] I will.

[713] I will I'll send you the clip You can just let the clip You can just let the clip She'll see this on in She's go Why didn't you just tell me?

[714] Yeah, yeah It's true That's incredible As a guy that's single Me And has struggled For thinking, am I?

[715] Sorry Yeah No, not you So, yeah As a guy that's single And has struggled Over the years To get into a relationship Because I've been busy Well, this is what The bullshit I tell myself What is commitment issues Is it?

[716] Well, well my parents So there's a slight issue For my childhood Where like my mom and dad you should scream each other all the time.

[717] So I just learned that relationships were like prison because my dad would sit there passively.

[718] My mom's screaming in his face.

[719] And I would, I just learned that as a man, when you get in a relationship, you're in prison and your freedom's gone.

[720] And so I'm someone that now like really doesn't want to give up my freedom.

[721] And whenever I get close to that commitment, I feel the fear, which clearly comes from my childhood.

[722] But what are the things that you know, as a guy that it's super successful over the last, you know, a couple of decades and now is running businesses and chasing a bunch of other.

[723] ambitions that you have.

[724] What are some of the things you've learned about how to have a successful relationship as a busy guy?

[725] One of them is communication, I guess, but...

[726] Yeah, communication, but I think time management is massive as well.

[727] Really?

[728] And, yeah, time management, like, and Kate's help with that as well.

[729] Like, managing your diary, like, I'm busy.

[730] I've got a lot of stuff on and that I enjoy and I want and I'm passionate about, which is key, but I'm as passionate, if not more, about my family as well.

[731] So managing that diary to make sure you've got quality time and you've got enough time with your family but also you know you're going to work is so key but also the time when you're there be there okay do you mean like i'll speak to a lot of guys who are managers a lot of my friends and managers now and that's why i'll never go into management i don't think because as a football manager you have to be you've to live it breathe it every minute like that's the same in business but there's i don't know with football i just find there's a different it's quite different that we're talking about the way that people talk to each other at football it's different to an office there's elements that are probably different as manager I feel but as a football manager you're at home you're having Sunday dinner with your family but you're not there you're thinking about logistics you're thinking about the nutritious as he sorted things out with the players that player is you going to be fit this week or not I need him fit that player just got injured at the weekend I can't believe it thinking about how am I going to replace him what formation am I going to play the other team have got a formation they play different at the weekend I need to watch that video I need to watch that for that 90 minutes.

[732] They played two games last week different.

[733] I got to watch them games as well.

[734] That's without thinking about like doing your team talk and doing your tactics on a training pitch and setting up your training sessions for the week without thinking about any.

[735] And so when you're at home, you're not home.

[736] You're not there really.

[737] You're physically there, but mentally you're not there.

[738] You might as well not be there.

[739] So I never wanted to get in that position, especially given what we've been through.

[740] So I definitely, I just kind of wrote that off as being something I'll do because of that.

[741] reason.

[742] And we were talking, again, before we start recording about your real deep desire to make sure that football isn't a thing that you're, you become known for, right?

[743] And I, I, I find that fascinating, but like, it's a big mountain to climb, right?

[744] Like, to get known for some of the things you're doing now, you're heavily involved in business, you're investing, you've got five.

[745] What are these, what, we talked about focus as well at the start of your journey, deciding that it wasn't going to be gymnastics, it wasn't going to be ballet, it was going to be football.

[746] Yeah.

[747] What is it now?

[748] So that's what I mean.

[749] That situation, that scenario is almost replicating itself now.

[750] I'm in that space right now.

[751] So when my dad said to me, Rio, what do you want to do?

[752] Make a choice.

[753] I've retired.

[754] And the last four or five years, I've been working out what I'm going to do.

[755] I'm trying this.

[756] I'm trying that.

[757] I'm not scared to try this.

[758] I'm not scared to try that.

[759] If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

[760] But then I know I'm not, that's not for me. And I've kind of get into a place now where I'm starting to drill down and focus on a couple of different spheres to go down.

[761] So the five YouTube channel and creating that football hub, that football place to be, my foundation, which goes into communities and gets kids from disadvantaged backgrounds gives them the opportunity to get an education and then the opportunity to get into work through the relationships with a few of the commercial companies that I've built relationships with over the years.

[762] What else?

[763] The management company, football management company, so we've got managers and players, past and present that we manage, probably about 85, 95 players, which is, that's one of our passions, and I'll get to mentor players within that, which is the best bit for me, where, so for instance, England player, Michael Keane, Ben Godfrey, Mason Holgate, the Murphy Twins, even Chris Wilder I speak to as well, but I get to mentor these players who I can have some sort of effect given the experience that I've gained over the years.

[764] So to have played that little role in a lot of these guys and I'll do that with the Premier League players in nationals to players that are from lower leagues or just starting on the journey who haven't made it yet.

[765] We were 17 and 18 years old.

[766] So I get great kicks out of stuff like that as well.

[767] Do you know which path you're going to take?

[768] I don't know.

[769] I'd love to be able to do it all, but I know it's not possible to be super successful spreading yourself thing like that so I will eventually go this is me it's funny because when I when I speak to you and I've spoken to you and obviously all my punditry stuff of course yeah yeah which is interesting I used to give them yeah when I spoke to you last time and we met a couple of I don't know a year or two ago I was standing in the sea for about 35 about an hour I think we're talking remember that in Dubai standing oh that yeah yeah I was talking about the other time where like I came to like roughly where you live you came to social chain one time yeah yeah yeah I came to where you lived And then I forgot the Dubai time, yeah.

[770] But every single time when I speak, you look at me in a certain way and I can see it.

[771] You're like listening very, and then you start asking questions around certain things.

[772] And you're very, very, very, very curious.

[773] And I've noticed this.

[774] I feel it.

[775] When I start talking, you look at me like this.

[776] Umar does the same thing.

[777] Yeah, yeah.

[778] Because you're another, you do a lot of stuff.

[779] You're doing this.

[780] You've got a book coming out.

[781] You're investing.

[782] You've been a part of a company that was valued at 200 plus million pounds.

[783] Like, you're doing so much stuff.

[784] There's a theatre show you're doing or whatever you mentioned before.

[785] So there's so much stuff that you're doing, you're spinning plates.

[786] I'll find that exciting.

[787] How the fuck are you doing that?

[788] I want to know.

[789] I don't want to know, like, sometimes it's nothing about what you're doing for me. How are you doing it?

[790] Do you mean?

[791] Like, even the podcast, I'm looking at your equipment.

[792] You know what I'm just like all the little things out of that.

[793] I love it.

[794] So I don't know.

[795] I'm just, I've got a curious.

[796] mine in that sense, definitely.

[797] When I was young, I was curious to find out what nightclubs look like inside.

[798] I mean, that's all I wanted to do is find out.

[799] I want to get in nightclubs.

[800] That's what I don't want to West Ham.

[801] Yeah.

[802] So, I mean, you're a young player just coming up in the primally, get invited to everything.

[803] I was curious.

[804] I mean, but that's for the wrong reasons.

[805] You've lived this crazy life, right?

[806] You've lived a life that me as a young kid growing up in Devon and Plymouth, I was, you know, watching my little, tiny little one -foot TV with my three of brothers sat there.

[807] that was the life that I wanted to lead and you've gone through that journey you've now come out the other end and you're doing all this other crazy stuff as you look back on the span of your career you must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't what are the things that matter you must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't what are the things that matter because I'm a little bit earlier on so I'm still figuring out some of these things I'm like, oh, look, money, this is interesting.

[808] You know, like, health, man. Really?

[809] Health is the, it's the biggest, it's the biggest thing.

[810] Because when you're healthy, you're so happy.

[811] We spoke about it before.

[812] Like, confidence, it breeds, how happy you are, it energizes you.

[813] But if you're not healthy, it can be devastating.

[814] So, health is a massive thing, which I didn't consider for many years, probably till we hit that bad patch in our lives.

[815] We're talking for granted.

[816] I mean, the pandemic now has been another way.

[817] And the pandemic is an absolute, like, if you wasn't awake then, you are woken now to health.

[818] What does that mean for you in terms of staying healthy now?

[819] Well, we spoke about it before in terms of, like, what does health mean to?

[820] It's passing it on to the next generation of kids, my own kids first and foremost, but then like to, kids to understand that going to the gym and just like in and out, all fads here and there, health kicks here and there isn't.

[821] At me. You're talking about me. It's not a lifestyle.

[822] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[823] Like, and we've got friends that we both know who are like that as well, and you've been like that before.

[824] Yeah, it's just, it's not, yeah, it's not the way, it's not healthy for starters, but up here, it just leaves you, you're always chasing something, Whereas when you get a consistency with your lifestyle and your healthy lifestyle there's almost like an exile like actually I get it now and it becomes it's not a drain on your life it becomes something that adds value to your life in the end and I think that's something to try and transfer that over to this next generation of kids is I think a key way and this pandemic is something that I think can accelerate that and it will accelerate that because like I said I'm on the board at the gym group now and trying to get people to understand and get back into coming into gyms is a massive push.

[825] It's a massive, it's a key part and how do you do that?

[826] Because it's not only the importance of a spreadsheet, it's actually you're doing something that's going to help people now and prevent illnesses from being healthy a lot of the time.

[827] And help their mental health, which people are doing.

[828] Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[829] People think it's just physical.

[830] Yeah.

[831] It's not.

[832] Like I'll go in a gym and that hour is unbelievable three, four times a week.

[833] Because you're on your own, or with a partner or a PT, whatever it is.

[834] And some of your best ideas or best flushing of things is there.

[835] All my ideas.

[836] Do you know what I mean?

[837] It's like because you're having that time alone and you're getting to sit and not think about anything else but your reps or whatever it is and then actually bang, something hits you, shit.

[838] That's kind of for later.

[839] That's one.

[840] I'll go back to that.

[841] It's unbelievable.

[842] It unlocks so much.

[843] It does, yeah.

[844] It's my time.

[845] I said, so now every day at 9pm, every single day without fail.

[846] I go to the gym.

[847] And regardless of how busy I am here, which is always too busy, every day the team say, they know that at a certain time I get up and I go to the gym every single day without fail.

[848] And you see it as, okay, well, I'm trying to get muscles.

[849] It's like, no, that's where I think of ideas.

[850] So health.

[851] And I'm really happy that you said that because I've had that revelation in the last year.

[852] And I think making health call, thank you.

[853] Making health call again would help more parts of society than we realize, especially guys that are looking for a sense the purpose in that life, you know?

[854] Yeah, definitely.

[855] I think that, and it's, again, the pandemic as well, maybe created a lot more health -conscious people.

[856] And it's just the ways in which they're going to work out now is going to be key.

[857] And even my kids are the same, like, I say to him, I don't want to have to come home and tell you to work out.

[858] You should want to work out.

[859] Just do it.

[860] And then sometimes I'm, sometimes, I'm already driving somewhere, and all of a sudden, one of the boys is, or my little girl, they're running somewhere.

[861] Nice.

[862] And that's like, for me, that's a success.

[863] That's what I want to see because I'm not forcing them to do it if they're doing it off their own back now this could be like their lifestyle for the rest of their life that they're healthy living healthy understand what it means and my two boys want to be footballers as well so it's important for them to be physically active as a dad that was a football legend what do you do to help a son that wants to be a football player get there pray I pray every night and just say please man let my kids be players like every other parent I'd give everything for them to play football and be like top players seriously man but if they don't this is what I always say to them but there ain't pressure if you don't make it I don't care it's life I would love you to be but if you don't make it it's fine you do something else one unfortunately is a centreback like me at the moment because then he'll be judged against me more if he played a different position like my other one's a goalkeeper so no one's going to say oh he's not as good as real because he's a goalkeeper, you know what I mean?

[864] So, but yeah, but they're both playing now.

[865] They're both a club, so they're happy.

[866] The biggest thing they're enjoying it, which is great.

[867] So it's a basic answer, but it's so true, do I mean?

[868] You're doing something that they enjoy that they want to get up out of bed every day for, and that's all you want.

[869] And it goes back to the same thing.

[870] When you're there, you better be working.

[871] I don't want this.

[872] Like, if the manager comes to me and they're doing the appraisal of your performances the last two months, I do it every quarter, they come back and tell me that you don't work hard enough you ain't going because it's just embarrassing for yourself to hear that but do is there anything that you can do can you like call someone and be like give my kid a chance because that's how always I thought it was like yeah but every footballer's kids would have been players then it's true I mean it's like saying that your child is going to be able to build a 200 million pound company because you have yeah it's true I mean it's just not it doesn't happen because there's so many variables that can affect that I guess all you can do is just try and give them some lessons Yeah, definitely some advice.

[873] And it's like, but it's like when you become a parent, it'll be the same.

[874] Your kids don't want to hear it from you.

[875] You're their dad.

[876] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[877] They don't want to hear all of this from you.

[878] You're your dad.

[879] They'd rather hear it from the Sunday league coach.

[880] You've got no qualifications and listen to him.

[881] And I'm sitting there looking at my son.

[882] Like, do you realize what I have done?

[883] What I did, why you're here.

[884] And you're not listening to me. You're not taking my advice.

[885] You used to kill me, right?

[886] Really.

[887] But then I realize it's more about, just giving them the tools from a mental perspective to how to think and live like a professional.

[888] Do they know who you are?

[889] They do, it's weird.

[890] My son said this to me the other day.

[891] He said, Dad, until I got FIFA, I didn't really know how good you was, you know?

[892] I said, what did you mean?

[893] He says, like, because you're a legend on FIFA, the game.

[894] So now I know, obviously, I see your stats.

[895] They're sick, man, they're sick.

[896] How old is he?

[897] He's 14 now.

[898] But like, he took him, he probably said, only like about until two years ago when he started playing FIFA.

[899] He realized it, oh, dad, you're like, yeah.

[900] Before that there was looking at me like I was just any man Like any guy Like And I say to them like Yeah And one of my sons Used to go Yeah but dad You really know that though Seriously I just go What's this guy saying What are you talking about I meet you bro But he was like But that's how they were And because they were just oblivious to it And a lot of players I spoke to And I'll ask them Did your kid know That you were like Top player Not really They don't Really Yeah You must want to set them down And show him some tapes Yeah But then you don't sit there and do that.

[901] It's almost like they've got to go and find it.

[902] And that's what they've done now since, obviously, they go on YouTube and look and stuff.

[903] As you go, Dad, you actually, not bad.

[904] People are saying, like, you are Virgil Van Dyke, so who's better?

[905] And like, Virgil Van Dyke is sick.

[906] And you're sitting there and you make your mind up, then you better be back in your dad.

[907] Who is better than you are you, Virginia's Van Dyke?

[908] I'll say me, isn't it?

[909] Plus he's Liverpool, so I can't support that.

[910] Who is the best defender in the world in your view?

[911] Right now.

[912] Yeah.

[913] Yeah, it's Van Dyke.

[914] You think it's Van Dyme?

[915] Ramos.

[916] Ramos, his age is obviously it works against him but Ramos in terms of influence in the last seven or eight years has been the standout because he's like, he's just, he's been a monster, scores goals, scored over 100 goals, you know, sent it back.

[917] Really?

[918] Yeah, crazy.

[919] But Van Dyke, the last two years has been the best, yeah.

[920] Liverpool and aren't having a good time at the moment.

[921] I'm not guided.

[922] I'm not the best, we've got some Liverpool fans in here and I tell you what, I've I've made the most of this Every day I'm like watching the games I didn't care before I'm like watching sat there watching the games Like I'm watching the United Final Yeah just like that Oh and then I'll text them Oh you've just conceded What's the excuse today Oh no fans all that nonsense No players got an injury Yeah Heard it all You know lastly You said you said that you're happy now Happiest you've You've felt in a long time Yeah Yeah definitely I'm just My face didn't actually say I did it My face didn't say that.

[923] No, your face is...

[924] No, I'm the happiest I've been, man. It's just because, I don't know, I've got three healthy children, four healthy children, now got a newborn just coming.

[925] A wife who does everything, who's brilliant, family, friends, yeah, man, it's just...

[926] And business is going well as well.

[927] And I can see stuff happening and evolving.

[928] you can almost you can feel stuff happening you know what I mean you must have felt that with some of the stuff that you do you feel you get onto something and you think the momentum starts coming you can see it building so I'm in a good place man I'm I'm really happy what do you want what do you mean what I want purposefully ambiguous like what do you want when you think about what you want now what is it I just I just want to be part of something that people go well that was that's the shit that's how they've done that fair play well played that's what i want why because that's how i've always been you play football first and foremost i want it because i want it to be a success before that obviously but that recognition i think we all have a little bit in us that you want that recognition whether it's from your friends you close network of people family or outside that why why as a football player did you buy the paper or do you go online what numbers beside your name if you got a four out of ten that papers are getting thrown away get a nine or ten or ten or ten or you're looking for that recognition and I think we've all got a little bit in that why do you say well done to your team one members of your team because you know that person will feed off that recognition so I'm not ashamed to say that I'm definitely like that as well well thank you so much for for coming today means a lot and you're an incredibly inspiring guy like I have no doubt that you you're going to find that thing and it's going to become just as successful as everything else you've done in your life because you've got all the philosophical attributes that are conducive with success.

[929] Like you're not someone that got lucky.

[930] You've clearly got a mindset that is conducive with success.

[931] And especially when you talk about how curious you are with things.

[932] When I say it, I mean it, like the way you look at me when I talk about something, like if I talk about something that's maybe a little bit outside of your realm of experience, you might as well have pen and paper in the hand because that's the facial expression, right?

[933] Yeah, I've got notepads at home.

[934] their scan, it's going in.

[935] Really?

[936] So, Umar, who I referenced in the podcast is the see a pretty little thing.

[937] And he was always the same.

[938] And he said to me, he was like, I'd get 16 year olds in this office.

[939] And I'd be like, tell me about TikTok.

[940] And he just sits there and studies them.

[941] He doesn't know about it.

[942] He knows about it.

[943] But he will know through them.

[944] And he'll learn.

[945] And he used to say to me, I'm a sponge.

[946] So Mahmood and Uma would invite me to the office, sometimes four days a week.

[947] And I'd just sit in the office and they'd just ask me questions.

[948] And then you'd see them just sort of changing their strategy a little bit on social media, etc and uh you know their record speaks for itself but yeah you've been a huge inspiration for me for many many years as a leader um as a guy you know i didn't know you before you know a couple years ago and when we met and the guy you are and the leader you are is um is tremendously inspiring you're a good guy and you're incredibly inspiring as well so thank you for making the time today and you inspire me now as well so it's uh kind of it works both ways uh appreciate you appreciate you Thank you.

[949] Cool, man.