A Mother Talks to Her Sons About Brett Kavanaugh

[0] From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro.

[1] This is a daily.

[2] This week, the Daily is revisiting our favorite episodes of the year, listening back and then hearing what's happened in the time since they first ran.

[3] Today, a new episode, inspired by one of those shows, about one of the biggest stories of the year, the confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

[4] At the center of that process was the accusation from Dr. Christine Blasey Ford that Kavanaugh had sexually assaulted her when they were in high school, an accusation he denied.

[5] Their closely watched testimony fueled a national debate about who is believed and who is blamed.

[6] It's Friday, December 28.

[7] Am I too close to you?

[8] No?

[9] In October, I sat down with a group of teenage girls in Brooklyn to discuss their reaction to his confirmation hearings.

[10] You know, I have friends that have had something like this happen to them or worse, and they have only gone to me and a select group of people about it because of the fear that nobody's going to believe them, that their parents are going to be angry at them for whatever reason.

[11] I'm curious what you think as high schoolers, should what you do now, should what anyone in high school does now, follow you around for the rest of your life?

[12] Yes, yes.

[13] Because I feel like, obviously high school is like a rite of passage and you've got to make mistakes and learn your way through it.

[14] But there are certain things that it's just like sexual misconduct.

[15] That kind of stuff follows the victims forever.

[16] And if it follows the victims forever, well, then you've got to do with it too since it's your fault.

[17] You know what I mean?

[18] After we originally aired this conversation, we received dozens of emails from listeners who wanted to hear the same questions, this time, posed to a group of boys.

[19] Okay, thanks guys for being here.

[20] One of those emails came from a woman named Ann Powers who lives in Oregon and offered to record a conversation with her two sons and one of their friends over the Thanksgiving holiday.

[21] So the Daily asks me to ask you a few starter questions.

[22] Tell me your names, how old you are, what your relationship is to each other, and describe, just do a little description of yourself.

[23] My name is Zach.

[24] I'm 13 years old, and I'm in eighth grade.

[25] I like to play sports.

[26] I like to play video games.

[27] I also like to drum.

[28] I'm in a band with my friend Elliot.

[29] I'm Elliot.

[30] I'm Zach's friend.

[31] I'm also 13 and in eighth grade.

[32] And yeah, we're in a band, and that's pretty cool.

[33] And I'm Patrick.

[34] I'm 20.

[35] I'm Zach's older brother, and I'm a second year student at Oberlin College.

[36] All right.

[37] Did any of you watch the testimony, either her testimony or his?

[38] Yeah.

[39] I watched Dr. Ford's testimony before school, and I thought she sounded very sincere.

[40] It did seem like she was traumatized, and I understand why she came forward.

[41] But part of me was a little confused why it took her so long to come forward.

[42] And I understand traumatized, but if you want, especially if you want someone to go down for, especially with something bad they did to you, doing it sooner rather than later is the better move.

[43] And it's not just about your personal comfort zone because if he's still out there, he can go on to do it to more girls.

[44] I mean, some people, maybe he was just drunk, but there are serial rapists or he didn't actually rape her, but it gets to a point where it's not just about how you feel.

[45] It's kind of about like looking out for everyone, in my opinion at least.

[46] Mm -hmm.

[47] Mm -hmm.

[48] Well, I know she was describing a scene where Judge Kavanaugh and his friends were kind of, like, cornered her and got her into, like, a bedroom at a party.

[49] And I feel like I was really moved by her bravery in coming forward with the story, and, yeah.

[50] Were kids talking about it at your school?

[51] Yeah.

[52] We live in a more conservative area.

[53] So most kids in my school were saying, Dr. Ford, her testimony was fake.

[54] It didn't actually happen.

[55] She was lying.

[56] She was stuttering in her testimony.

[57] The majority of kids in my school were saying, Brett Kavanaugh is innocent.

[58] That's also the majority of kids at my school said.

[59] About half, for the girls, it's about half and half.

[60] And basically the teacher showed like a clip of some of their testimonies and we were talking about what we thought.

[61] And one of the girls brought up.

[62] like how something about Christy Ford and then like half the boys in the back just yelled like fake fake yeah like that and I think that it shouldn't be enough to ruin his career just one woman coming forward saying that he raped her because they tried to I mean there was an FBI investigation the people in power did say hey we want an FBI investigation and they weren't able to find much I mean they were able to find quotes in his yearbook and they were able to like they found out that there were other people there but none of those people were able to say anything that they remembered.

[63] We'll be right back.

[64] Anne Powers offered to record a conversation with her two sons and one of their friends about one of the biggest stories of the year, the confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

[65] Okay, let's talk about Kavanaugh's testimony.

[66] You guys all saw at least some of his testimony, right?

[67] Right.

[68] Yeah, and what did you think of it?

[69] He seemed very defensive.

[70] and if you want to I don't know what happened I'm not going to say he did it I'm not going to say he didn't but if you want to convince people that he didn't do it I don't think it like the way he presented himself it was very I don't know it made me more likely to believe that he did it oh really that's interesting the way he was very a little too defensive yeah a little too defensive kind of like throwing in stuff when he didn't need to I could understand where he's coming from at some point And especially though, if you're, you know, about to get your dream job and then some, you know, so you've been working hard your whole life, something comes along your way to mess that all up.

[71] I understand why he would be so defensive.

[72] Right, yeah.

[73] But, I mean, there is saying innocent and tell proven guilty, so I'm not going to assume if he did it.

[74] I, my position on that is pretty neutral, but I just think, I think he could have handled it.

[75] Yeah, I don't know.

[76] I feel like the, to me, it was just so, like, it gave me this really gross feeling.

[77] It was just, it was just gross all over because it was, yeah, because it was like the whole thing of, um, oh, you know, I, I, I hung out with my friends, with my boys and he had, like, his calendar with his friends, like, nicknames, right, from, from back in the day.

[78] And he was like, my, my boys and I were just out there, like, having a good time.

[79] bonding, doing guys stuff, like just guys being dudes, right?

[80] And then tied into that is the indignation that he seemed to feel around the assumption that anything could disqualify him for this job, right?

[81] Like, I know you guys are talking about, oh, you know, I can understand like where he's coming by like he's about to get his dream job.

[82] And to me it was just like, wow, this guy has absolutely no doubt in his mind that he somehow deserves this job, that this belongs to him already and that everything should be just a formality.

[83] Mm -hmm.

[84] Mm -hmm.

[85] Do you think that what you do right now and what you do in high school and college, is that, should you be held accountable for that for, you know, the rest of your lives?

[86] I mean, I think that if you rape someone or commit a serious crime like that, then, yeah, I think it should stick with you because by high school, you know, you're gaining that awareness, kind of like being able to judge your actions and, like, stuff like that.

[87] But I don't think that, like, a tweet that you make should be able to ruin your career later on in life like it does for a lot of athletes or, like, a video that surfaces of you.

[88] Because it gets to the point where it's just people looking to ruin your career, right?

[89] People find out you rape someone that's different, but to just say, oh, look, I found this video or I found this tweet.

[90] It's like, it's kind of just like, you need to mind your own business and stop getting offended.

[91] Well, what about the video of Trump?

[92] The video, okay.

[93] Yeah, no, I mean, that makes sense.

[94] But, like, well, I mean, when you're, I think when you're a president, it's different.

[95] But I don't think that that should have been, like, if, say he were applying for a job, I don't think that that should have been able to really, like, disqualify him.

[96] I think it should, because, I mean, it could have harassed him in the workplace.

[97] I guess it's looking at the implications that it has, right?

[98] It's like.

[99] I think if he truly regrets it and he's sorry for what he said and he's changed his ways because that video is very old then then that's very different but it didn't appear that he had changed much Do you know of any boys who have been accused of sexual attacks or sexual harassment and rightly or wrongly accused?

[100] I do actually myself and last year I was in the seventh grade I had a pretty ugly breakup with a girl.

[101] And after that, you know, a couple days later, the principal calls me in the office and said, this girl, you know, she came forward and said that you sexually harassed her.

[102] Now you touched her inappropriately or making inappropriate remarks.

[103] And at that point, it was kind of a he said versus she said situation.

[104] And after that, you know, her friends came forward and said like, oh, yeah, he did this to me too.

[105] And it even got worse than that because no one was, you know, blaming the victim by school, you know.

[106] Everyone's, you know, shaming on me, saying all that stuff.

[107] But just to be clear, you did not do it.

[108] I did not do it.

[109] So you were falsely accused.

[110] I was falsely accused, yes.

[111] People thought it was funny.

[112] Girls were giggling about it.

[113] They thought it was like a joke to like do it and it was funny.

[114] And at that point, looking at half the student body, the female student body, or just me is one guy.

[115] Like that's where the whole Me Too movement, I feel like that's kind of what's wrong because you can just get a bunch of people.

[116] Because you'd be surprised that people do for attention.

[117] and I've kind of experienced that firsthand.

[118] But that's what made my seventh grade year in middle school just complete.

[119] It's awful.

[120] How do you prove you didn't do something?

[121] How do you prove you did?

[122] And I mean, at some point, the principal checked the cameras and all that at school, and I turned out to be, yeah, it was innocent.

[123] I didn't get in trouble with the school.

[124] But, you know, there's points where I was just like, I didn't want to go to school.

[125] I was scared to go to school.

[126] Yeah.

[127] I was figuring out how can I walk home avoiding these people.

[128] It sucked having to go through that.

[129] But the big part of it for me was that it just made me really sad.

[130] You know, a bunch of women use their power like that.

[131] Some of them, you know, help out a friend.

[132] Some of them are angry.

[133] Some of them, you know, they just thought it was funny.

[134] And it just kind of, it makes me sad just to.

[135] Does it make you not trust girls as much?

[136] It definitely does.

[137] And it's kind of bad because when there are real situations where that stuff does happen, People are going to believe them.

[138] Yeah, what if people don't believe them?

[139] It's kind of like the boy who cried wolf situation.

[140] So you also had a bad middle school experience with girls, didn't you?

[141] Yeah, I had a bad middle school experience in general.

[142] I doubt that very many people had awesome.

[143] Why don't you tell your, if you're willing to, tell your girl middle school experience?

[144] Yeah, so this is my seventh grade year.

[145] Also, there was a girl who I really loved.

[146] and who like it wasn't really a secret um and then one day she she asked me out and I was like so happy right because I was like this kind of unpopular seventh grader and whatever um and I was really pumped and then like a week a week went by and stuff was really weird and then one of the other girls in the class I think kind of took pity on me and told me like her friends had put her up to it like had dared her to ask me out as a joke um and I was just like crushed because I like said you know So she's this huge crush on this girl, and I was so sad.

[147] And then after that, they created a fake Facebook account to pretending to be some random girl on the internet who was like into me. And then I found out that it was fake because I googled like stock photos of like girls.

[148] It was like the second photo.

[149] I was like, wait a minute.

[150] Something's not right.

[151] So but no. Did you ever figure out who did it?

[152] Oh, totally.

[153] Yeah, no, it was the same girls.

[154] It was the same girls.

[155] How did you handle that?

[156] I mean, I was really, I was really hurt, and it definitely stung my trust in girls for a while.

[157] And I think the immediate thing that I did was fall back on girls suck, girls are mean, they're liars, they're blah, blah, blah, yada, yada.

[158] And I think in middle school, when a lot of the girls are being super mean to a lot of the boys, and you have that negative experience, it can sort of set you on this path that shoots you out as a 22 -year -old that is just really bitter, sexist, misogynistic, like really bad stuff.

[159] But they have a reason too.

[160] And they have a reason that is from seventh or eighth grade.

[161] They haven't had a positive experience that pulls them out of that.

[162] I don't think it should be a thing that it's expected, oh, this is going to happen to middle school, it will get better.

[163] It shouldn't be a thing that happens in the first place.

[164] This is one of the reasons why, you know, there's a controversy between genders and why some matter, you know, angry and they can be sexist towards women and, you know, just...

[165] I also was sort of thinking what you were talking.

[166] I think the reason why I was able to move past that stuff that happened in middle school is that I stayed in school with that group of people for a few.

[167] And a few years later, they, we were pretty close friends and they apologized repeatedly for the way that they had acted in middle school.

[168] And I think that hearing that from them and watching those people evolve and go through legitimate character growth and then apologize for the way that they had been jerks earlier in our lives, kind of let me move past that.

[169] Yeah.

[170] Well, we've talked for a long time.

[171] We should probably wrap things up.

[172] You know, I'm hoping, I'm raising boys, and I'm hoping to raise you to be honorable, kind, strong men.

[173] And it's a real question, like, what do you do when you get falsely accused?

[174] What is the high road for you as boys and men?

[175] You know, I'm worried that these Brett Kavanaugh hearings are.

[176] teaching boys a bad lesson of what I think is a wrong lesson, which is that if you make a mistake and somebody accuses you of it, what's the right thing to do?

[177] If you've actually made a mistake, you've treated somebody badly, what's the right thing to do when they accuse you?

[178] Well, I think it depends on the severity of what you're being accused of, the way it ties in of a relation to the situation.

[179] So, yeah, if you're accused of rape and you...

[180] Anything.

[181] If you're accused of anything and you've done it, what's generically for giving?

[182] What's the right thing to do?

[183] But that's what I think.

[184] I think it's different.

[185] I think if that maybe say that you, let's think of something that's rather innocent.

[186] You drank the last of the milk when I told you not to.

[187] Right.

[188] Okay.

[189] So let's say that I did that.

[190] Yes.

[191] See that I did that.

[192] But it were five years later.

[193] and the cops had come because I had been drunk driving And then you went Oh yeah Elliot does have a tendency to drink things Like when he drank the milk Like Keep going I'm with you Like when he drank the milk five years ago And I think like I don't know It just seems to me like that's not needed To bring it up Okay Well I What That's a very funny example But I think there is a generic rule that I would hope that you boys already know this when you make a mistake you need to apologize for it you need to own up to it you need to own up to what you did you need to apologize for it you need to do what you can to make it right and then you need to take steps to make sure that you don't do it again right so those are the four steps that should be in your back pocket anytime you make a mistake those are the four things you should do and you should be able to do them graciously because you will make mistakes and some of them are dumb mistakes some of them are minor mistakes sometimes you'll make mistakes that really hurt people and maybe you can't make it right it's stuff so it's harder when you're wrongfully accused or don't be Brett Kaffin all yeah don't scream and shout Yeah, it's, it's, okay, it's, that's one of the things, though, like, I don't think he should have acted like that, but I understand why it's, it's hard not to.

[194] I mean, when I was falsely accused, I was very upset.

[195] And I, I was yelling.

[196] I was, I was, I was being hysterical.

[197] And looking back, I probably should have been more calm about it.

[198] But I can see why you would act like that.

[199] Mm -hmm.

[200] Yeah.

[201] And I think it's really hard when you're falsely accused.

[202] There's not that, I don't have that, that nice little formula of four steps for when you're falsely accused, what do you do?

[203] Um, Alia and Zach, do you have any last words before we wrap up?

[204] Uh, no, I don't think so.

[205] Zach?

[206] No. Nope.

[207] All right.

[208] We're done.

[209] Thanks for talking.

[210] That's it for the Daily.

[211] I'm Michael Barbaro.

[212] See you on Monday.

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