Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 5: Five Favorite Murders

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Listen up.

[2] I'm Lisa Trager.

[3] And I'm Kara Clank, and we're the hosts of the True Crime Comedy podcast, That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

[4] Every Tuesday, we break down an episode of Law & Order SVU, the true crime it's based on, and we chat with an actor from the episode.

[5] Over the past few years, we've chatted with series icons like Beatty Wong, Kelly Giddish, Danny Pino, and guest stars like Padget Brewster and Matthew Lillard.

[6] And just like an SVU marathon, you can jump in anywhere.

[7] Don't miss new episodes every Tuesday.

[8] Follow That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[9] Dun, done!

[10] Hello.

[11] Welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[12] In this series, we're re -listening to our favorite moments from the old episodes, the beginning of this whole...

[13] What is this?

[14] What is this?

[15] I don't know.

[16] This is like an experience.

[17] No, this is like an experiment, kind of.

[18] It's both...

[19] Both are true.

[20] Yeah.

[21] And we're going to process the embarrassing moments.

[22] We're going to reflect on the people.

[23] people we used to be.

[24] But we'll also give you important case updates about the murders we covered way back in the beginning when we kind of didn't know how to podcast.

[25] So we didn't do research.

[26] We kind of made it a conversation.

[27] It was before we knew.

[28] And so it's interesting to look back.

[29] And, you know, let's all do it together.

[30] Yep.

[31] So today we're going to rewind to episode five, which first aired on a Tuesday because we just dropped in when we could.

[32] Why not?

[33] Why be consistent?

[34] It's like, just put your podcast out when you can get around to it.

[35] Right.

[36] So this is Tuesday, February 16th, 2016.

[37] I was 35 years old.

[38] I was 22.

[39] We were little babies.

[40] We are little babies, innocent children.

[41] We didn't know how and why and when and what.

[42] But we're going to figure that out on this episode today.

[43] That's right.

[44] So gather up your dog walker.

[45] your stepmom Oh yeah get your stepmom into this and your favorite high school science teacher and let's all join together and become day one listeners so here's the beginning of episode five and us chatting about our fears listener feedback and so much more enjoy enjoy talk about murder let's get it done let's get into murder let's get our murder chores taken care of.

[46] Let's vacuum the murder and take out the murder.

[47] Let's vacuum up the hair follicles and the carpet fibers that will not be admissible in court.

[48] Right.

[49] And then just throw them out.

[50] Yeah.

[51] Because they're just garbage.

[52] And then we'll overturn the conviction.

[53] We'll overturn history.

[54] Hi, this is my favorite murder.

[55] That's Karen.

[56] And that's Georgia.

[57] And we're here to talk about crime and punishment and all the things that we like that a lot of people really don't.

[58] I feel like so many people are emailing us and you like, thank you.

[59] that they do.

[60] Yeah.

[61] I'm always too embarrassed to talk about it with anyone.

[62] Do you think even, like, even grammar school teachers and even cheerleaders have these feelings?

[63] Yeah.

[64] I think most women like to talk about murder.

[65] Yeah.

[66] Yeah.

[67] And some dudes.

[68] Some dudes do.

[69] Okay.

[70] Here's the thing I read recently.

[71] Does you know they have, like, an age range that you'll most likely, like, this is when this is when your chances of getting murdered.

[72] Are this age?

[73] Like, they have an exact age.

[74] And this is from Paranoia magazine?

[75] No, this is from fucking psychology today.

[76] Okay, similar.

[77] It was a relief because we're both older than this age.

[78] Okay, good.

[79] So the average aid of homicide victims in, this last time, I guess, was 2008, was 32 .7 years old.

[80] And then the average age of murderers in 2008 was 28 .8.

[81] Whoa.

[82] That's very young, it seems to me. To get murdered or to murder?

[83] To be a murderer that seems young.

[84] I know.

[85] I would have guessed older, personally.

[86] You would have guessed younger for the murder?

[87] Yeah, because you have less control over your impulses and that sort of thing.

[88] But by 28, you're like, I'm going to be a murderer, definitely or no. You know what it is too?

[89] I think when I think of stuff like this, I'm thinking of the specific kind of murders.

[90] that I'm interested in where obviously this is this is gang mafia uh all you know impulse all that stuff uh spousal abuse the crimes of passion crimes of portion crimes of portion crimes of portions what about you know what I'm really afraid of getting shot out on the freeway oh yeah what about someone throwing a brick over an off and overpass onto your windshield don't do that no don't do that has that happened to people there was like sometimes Sometimes there's, there's, like, I was going to say spates of that, but I'm not sure if that's the right word.

[91] That's terrifying.

[92] Little, that starts happenings in certain parts of, that's a very Los Angeles thing.

[93] No. Sure.

[94] I know.

[95] I got to go.

[96] Okay, bye.

[97] I got to go.

[98] I got to go.

[99] And to be murdered, 32.

[100] That sounds right, because you're like, you're out of your 20s.

[101] You kind of like, you relax into adulthood.

[102] You think you got it together You no longer carry your keys Between your fingers At night You're kind of like Look, I lived in the city long enough You let your shoulders down a little bit You relax Yeah The fun kind of murders that we like That's like your fucking college co -ed Yeah Not fun And I don't like them Just to clear this up Whatever We simply must demand Understanding from our audience That's why we're gonna have to stop Explaining that A We don't want to be murdered by anyone You know why is because I made the fatal mistake of not only reading some of our iTunes reviews that were bad, which there were very few.

[103] So I went straight to them and then telling you about them.

[104] And like the funniest one was one where it was like, these women have no respect.

[105] They're laughing about child death or whatever.

[106] And so I keep feeling like I have to clarify or be apologetic.

[107] Like you want to call her and be like, let me tell you about this.

[108] I pictured it to be an old man with horn rim glasses and kind of half balding.

[109] of like an old Bob Odenkirk is the way I was picturing it.

[110] Just like a crooked finger shaking at the screen always.

[111] You women.

[112] His grandson comes and boots it up for him every day.

[113] Totally.

[114] Yeah, we just said we can't worry.

[115] We have to be talking to the people that understand us.

[116] Yeah.

[117] They get us.

[118] They do and they like it like you're saying.

[119] They're excited.

[120] I was going to ask you a question and then I forgot it.

[121] I'm just going to keep telling each other that.

[122] That people like murder?

[123] They like it.

[124] Yeah.

[125] Why would they be listening to a person?

[126] podcast called my favorite murder.

[127] Yeah, people are much smarter than the media would have you believe.

[128] That's true.

[129] Do you want to go first?

[130] You want to talk about your favorite murder?

[131] Yeah.

[132] Maybe after this one, we're going to start having categories each time.

[133] Sure.

[134] Like, call a theme.

[135] Yeah, theme.

[136] Totally.

[137] So we're not right now.

[138] So I was just like in the wind, twisting in the wind to grab one.

[139] Tip for tonight.

[140] I don't know why it's been harder.

[141] Yeah.

[142] So why that you go first.

[143] That's my point.

[144] Oh, okay.

[145] No, wait.

[146] Why don't I go first?

[147] And then yours is probably really well researched.

[148] Why?

[149] Because I have a legal pad.

[150] I just carry that around with me like a nerd.

[151] There's just nothing written, like the same word written over and over and over it.

[152] It just says murder Georgia over and over on it.

[153] What if this whole time?

[154] It was you that murder me. Oh my God.

[155] Yeah, that's the great irony of life.

[156] It's always what's right in front of you.

[157] Nice to meet you.

[158] Hi.

[159] Meet my murderer.

[160] Meet my murderer.

[161] God, listening to us talk about bad iTunes reviews from you from me of all people and I mean I think that stopped probably three episodes later just that idea where it's like watching us watching ourselves like be received it's not a good idea if you have a podcast and that's something that you do I don't recommend it don't recommend it's you know what it is it's the feeling of, oh, my God, the person I'm talking about is standing behind me, aren't they?

[162] Yes.

[163] Like, when we realized that people were listening to the podcast, slowly it was like this slow -mo turn around of, oh, I didn't know you were here, and they heard everything.

[164] We truly were gossiping to each other in the beginning.

[165] And we, I think the mentality, like that complaint where there were people saying, you know, you covered child murders and people saying they didn't live.

[166] like the way we covered it, that was the first realization of like, oh, we have to be doing this in a structured, conscious, intentional way.

[167] Yeah, there has to be a standard.

[168] And if anyone's going to set it, I feel like we knew we could.

[169] We could follow along of all people.

[170] We could literally do better.

[171] Yeah, we could do clap, clap, do better.

[172] So I think we have.

[173] And I think another thing, too, about this is that we've slowly learned throughout the years that it's not just women listening.

[174] It's a lot of men, which is awesome.

[175] And we do also love that when people sign their hometowns, they give their pronouns as well.

[176] So it's such a bigger community than just women.

[177] And, you know, that's incredible.

[178] Yeah, it's nice.

[179] We've gotten some, oh, this is the episode where it has one of the most epic hometowns we've ever received.

[180] Yeah.

[181] So stay tuned for that.

[182] But in the meantime, we're going to hear my story about a class.

[183] classic murder that's just troubled all of us.

[184] Some could say it's a cold case.

[185] Some could say it's totally been solved and there's no justice.

[186] True.

[187] So this is the murder of Martha Moxley from 1975.

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[208] Goodbye.

[209] All right.

[210] Well, mine is my favorite murder this week is one that I'm sure you know about.

[211] And it's a classic.

[212] And I feel like I just need to get out of the way because whenever, and there's been recent news updates about it.

[213] And whenever I see it, whenever I watch a documentary about it, I'm fucking in it.

[214] Yeah.

[215] It's the murder of Martha Moxley.

[216] Georgia, you know.

[217] I got to tell you.

[218] Yeah.

[219] Just the name.

[220] Martha Moxley.

[221] Moxley.

[222] The word Moxley.

[223] It's the best name and it's the worst story.

[224] That's just like, and she's just a fucking kid.

[225] Yeah.

[226] Yeah.

[227] So those who don't know, don't know anything, apparently.

[228] Martha Moxley, in 1975, she was a 15 -year -old girl living in Greenwich, Connecticut, which is a fucking Tonytown.

[229] Love the word Tony.

[230] Don't they have like their own gates and stuff?

[231] It's, like, truly, like, crazy rich.

[232] Yeah, and it's like, you live on acres.

[233] Yeah.

[234] So Martha Moxley's body was found beaten in her yard the night after Halloween.

[235] It was, she was beaten.

[236] They found half of a golf club there, which is what had been used to beat her.

[237] She's, like, a cute, pretty, this doesn't matter.

[238] She could be ugly.

[239] It's still terrible.

[240] She looks like a girl that's in a black and white picture in an 80s yearbook.

[241] Totally.

[242] She's like that perfect girl.

[243] Like the popular, but like, but she's also on student body.

[244] Like she's popular and smart.

[245] She's not mean, you know.

[246] Yeah.

[247] Freckles.

[248] Totally.

[249] Genuine smile.

[250] Like she'd probably end up being like a, like a lawyer for like the ocean.

[251] You know?

[252] Like a lawyer defending like actually getting something good done.

[253] OSHA.

[254] Is that a thing?

[255] OSHA, yes.

[256] But OSHA is the work, is the work environment making sure, making sure it's safe for people to work there she'd be a lawyer for them okay uh i like the ocean too it's kind of nice she just has dolphins all around her anyhow she totally has dolphins uh so the person who ended up ultimately getting arrested and put in jail for this murder but not until 2002 was her neighbor who lived across the street who was her age named michael skakel who this is so unimportant and such a stupid fact of the the whole thing but probably the reason why it's a famous murder is that the Michael Skakel's family was related to Senator Robert Kennedy's wife, Ethel Kennedy.

[257] Ethel Skakel Kennedy, who RFK has been in on this podcast.

[258] So my favorite murder in the past.

[259] Anyways.

[260] So what's recently happened is that Michael Skakel has been released from jail.

[261] Oh, I didn't know that.

[262] They filed for a new trial because he was not adequately represented by his defense attorney.

[263] Doubt it.

[264] The habeas petition was granted.

[265] The judgment of conviction is set aside and the matters referred back.

[266] So for retrial, meaning as far as I know, so he got out.

[267] And as far as I know, it doesn't look like they're pursuing the case anymore.

[268] Because I guess, you know, they had very little, it was all circumstantial evidence.

[269] Not even that wasn't very strong.

[270] So it was surprising that he got convicted.

[271] However, he admitted that that night, somewhere between 10 and 2 in the morning or something like that, he was in a tree masturbating while looking in Martha Mox's window.

[272] Yes, that was the justification of why his semen would be on her body.

[273] Was it on her body?

[274] Yeah.

[275] Okay, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.

[276] Right.

[277] I mean, clearly he had pretty good lawyers the first time around if they're coming up with shit like that.

[278] It's just, I know this is insane bias because I've seen this like so many versions of this story, but it's, but I've decided.

[279] I've decided.

[280] But I mean, it's because of things like that.

[281] Well, the problem with it is is that there's other strong suspects, you know, like the brother.

[282] The brother who was making out with her that evening, which is why maybe Michael got jealous and killed her.

[283] Or did she catch him drinking off?

[284] Like, how did she come out there, do you suppose?

[285] I think she was out because it was mischief night, right?

[286] Was it the night before Halloween or Halloween?

[287] It was, uh, yeah.

[288] Sorry, I know, you're so, the night before Halloween.

[289] Yeah, mischief night, which I didn't know as a thing.

[290] I know it's not a thing out here.

[291] I think it's, it might be exclusively for rich white people in Greenwich.

[292] It's also in Detroit, which is terrifying.

[293] Oh, is it?

[294] Yeah.

[295] Slightly different tone of that mischief night.

[296] Every night is mischief night in Detroit.

[297] Yeah.

[298] Yeah, I've never heard of Mrs. mischief night until I heard this story.

[299] Yeah, me too.

[300] So, yeah.

[301] So, like, the most obvious answer is usually the correct answer.

[302] Yeah.

[303] And him jerking off in a tree and not being the killer is not the obvious answer.

[304] That's right.

[305] Well, and also just then why weren't there other people, even, you know, like, it just didn't seem like there was other people brought forward because this is one of, not just a safe town or whatever, it's like an exclusive shut off city.

[306] Yeah.

[307] But here's the thing is there, the Skakles had a tutor named John, let's see where they're right.

[308] John's something foreign?

[309] Ken. Ken Littleton.

[310] Oh, okay.

[311] So he was a tutor and they were like, this guy's sketchy.

[312] And so he was a suspect for a long time too.

[313] Why was he sketchy?

[314] Do you remember?

[315] Because maybe he had a part on for Martha Moxley.

[316] Oh, okay.

[317] But he says he never even met her.

[318] Okay.

[319] But then so recently, Kobe Bryant, here's another, like, relative, Kobe Bryant's cousin.

[320] His name is Tony Bryant.

[321] Okay.

[322] Like, why there needs to be, you know, connections to family members that are famous.

[323] I don't know.

[324] Says that he knows who killed Martha Moxley.

[325] He's from this town.

[326] Oh.

[327] And he came out recently and said, I know who actually did it, and it wasn't Michael Skagel.

[328] No. He says it was two of his friends who lived in, where do they live, the Bronx, I believe?

[329] Yeah, two friends visiting him from the Bronx.

[330] They went to Moxley's neighborhood the night of the murder, and this guy, Bryant, was with them.

[331] The two friends reportedly picked up Skakel's golf clubs from Skakel's Yard, which is what she was murdered with, on a whim and told Bryant, they wanted to attack a girl, quote, caveman style using the club.

[332] Bryant says he left the neighborhood and learned about the murder later and the friends told him they committed a crime, but he never said anything.

[333] So now he's saying he's coming forward with the story.

[334] If the story is true, I call bullshit on him leaving.

[335] He was there.

[336] People are going to tell you to your face, they're going to kill a girl and you're like, well, I've got to go.

[337] So what kind of person?

[338] I mean, look, whatever.

[339] There's all details.

[340] You could run a million scenarios that are like...

[341] I just don't think a teenager would be like, would leave.

[342] Even if he was like, I don't want to murder anyone.

[343] I just want to see what happens.

[344] Or I don't believe these guys, you know.

[345] Well, the other thing I remember hearing is that the Skagel's golf clubs, the set of clubs were in their attic, that the cops found them later with that one club missing.

[346] So the idea that they were picking golf clubs out of her front yard, seems a bit bullshitty.

[347] Or did someone stash the golf clubs up there after they realized the murder weapon was a golf club or...

[348] That could be connected to them.

[349] Yeah.

[350] Did Michael Skagel do it?

[351] Put the golf clubs up there.

[352] The dad, the mom.

[353] Weren't the dad and their mom gone?

[354] They were gone.

[355] Like, their dad and mom almost didn't live there.

[356] They were like teen boys that lived on their own.

[357] Rich white teen boys running a muck that lived on their own.

[358] That sounds terrible.

[359] Now, am I wrong to assume that Kobe Bryant's cousin is black and that the kids coming in from whatever, but did you say Brooklyn or the Bronx?

[360] The Bronx.

[361] Coming in from the Bronx are black?

[362] That's an assumption we can make.

[363] I would think that the Greenwich, Connecticut cops would see three black kids walking around on mischief night and at least ask a question.

[364] Totally.

[365] If not harass the fuck out of them.

[366] And then how did Michael Skagel Seaman?

[367] I have to go back.

[368] And get on this poor girl.

[369] This poor girl and her poor, every interview, like, her family is, like, die hard.

[370] Like, we never did anything else with our lives, but try to get justice.

[371] Yeah.

[372] It's fucking heartbreaking for this poor family.

[373] There's, I remember, I remember seeing this story way early in a, it wasn't Forensic Files, but it was like one of those ones and they interviewed the mom.

[374] Oh, she's.

[375] She seemed like a thousand miles away.

[376] I remember watching it and just going, oh, I never want to see any, any, any, murder victim's mom speak again, because that's the most painful thing.

[377] You know what hurts me?

[378] The brothers, brothers of the murder victims always bummed me out because they're like, I should have been there to help my little sister.

[379] Yeah.

[380] Terrible.

[381] Well, also, I don't like the idea that, so he has served, is it 30 years in prison or 20?

[382] No. He didn't get arrested until 2002.

[383] Oh, so this is crazy, like, white people justice where it's a rich guy who basically, basically kind of did a symbolic time.

[384] And now they're faking out some black people to say, hey, maybe we did it.

[385] And then his thing goes away.

[386] Probably.

[387] He got, he didn't, Michael Skickle didn't get arrested until, and unconvicted for 27 years.

[388] He was free.

[389] So this whole thing happened.

[390] I think it was 2002.

[391] So I remember having watched the whole story of the murder and then like that happened.

[392] It was insane.

[393] I never thought he would get anyone would get arrested for it.

[394] And now, he's fucking out again.

[395] So he spent a, he spent a couple years.

[396] I just think that the logic of, oh wait, so 2000, he was arrested.

[397] And then, yeah, now he's out.

[398] Yeah, the logic of.

[399] Oh, just the logic of a very rich teen boy who gets spurned and maybe even shamed like his older brother who ruins his life in every other way gets the girl that he likes, him having this huge crazy emotional reaction in the moment that he maybe hugely regrets even but that maybe even a girl that he was obsessed with that sparking murderous rampage makes way more sense than just a teen going I'm going to kill a girl tonight caveman style like you have to be a very specific type of person to be able to do that in the first place it's not it's not like going I'm going to sniff glue and then there were two other kids at Michael Skakell's boarding school later who said, yeah, he admitted to it.

[400] Yeah.

[401] So these kids from the Bronx would have probably gone back and bragged about it.

[402] And there would have been more people saying that they did it, not Kobe Bryant's cousin.

[403] Yeah.

[404] But I just hate that idea that, I mean, most black people have a hard time driving around Los Angeles, California.

[405] Yeah.

[406] You're going to roll up into Greenwich, Connecticut.

[407] Yeah.

[408] And just be like, let's see what we can do murder -wise.

[409] Yeah, let's wander around with clubs.

[410] I don't think so.

[411] No, yeah, you're right.

[412] Also, if you live in the Bronx, where you're getting the gas money, where are you getting any of the money to get there?

[413] Yeah.

[414] Like, I don't know.

[415] It just doesn't, it just doesn't add up as quickly to me. It's just a, it's, but what's, yeah.

[416] But who knows?

[417] And I just don't understand why this guy who has a family, Kobe Bryant's cousin, would want to do that.

[418] But there's fucking narcissistic people who want attention all the time.

[419] Or maybe he really believes it.

[420] Maybe he believes it.

[421] Maybe he doesn't, he's remembering incorrectly.

[422] He really believes that's what happened.

[423] Here's what I will say.

[424] I love the idea that we still get to talk about the Martha Moxley murder, that there's something still happening with it.

[425] That's fascinating to me. So no one's in prison for her murder still.

[426] I want Michael Skagel not to have done it.

[427] I want there to be a different answer, but I don't think there is.

[428] I think that the thing it comes down to with me with a lot of these stories is my irritation over the fact that people accept kind of like if you're a white guy wearing a button down Oxford shirt you can kind of do whatever the fuck you want and people will be like oh no that nice boy down the street yeah like you can you get to hide in plain sight with this camouflage and meanwhile be whatever and people will not believe it they'll immediately believe three black kids driving up from the Bronx to kill this one girl okay great job thank you i hope i said it in the episode but i'm not sure um this case as georgia was saying is a really old it's next year marks the 50th anniversary of this case and it's technically still unsolved it's still a cold case i mean what a what a miscarriage of justice for this poor girl who had the rest of her life in front of her i mean yeah you know it's just it's just it's It's a hard one.

[429] Yeah.

[430] For sure.

[431] And as I said in the episode, Michael Skakel was charged with the murder of Martha Moxley in 2000, found guilty in 2002, spent more than a decade in prison.

[432] In 2013, he got a new trial.

[433] And a bunch of shits happened in between them.

[434] But I will just say that in 2020, prosecutors announced that they would not seek a second trial for Skakel on the murder charge.

[435] And in late 2023, he actually filed a civil rights lawsuit.

[436] against the town of Greenwich, as well as the lead detective seeking damages for what he claims was his wrongful conviction.

[437] So let's follow along with that.

[438] That case is still in court.

[439] We'll give you any updates as we get them.

[440] And so because ultimately Michael Skakel's conviction was vacated, Martha Moxley's murder technically remains unsolved to this day.

[441] Yeah.

[442] I mean, if it is a wrongful conviction, that's horrible, and that is everyone's fear and that is, but just pure personal opinion, rich people are able to make these arguments to get the best lawyers who figure out the loopholes or who figure out the technicalities to get people out of prison all the time.

[443] But there's plenty of people who should be getting out of prison because their, you know, trial was a joke or whatever and they don't have the money.

[444] So they just sit there.

[445] Yeah.

[446] It's a fucked up.

[447] It's a fucked up system.

[448] Yeah, it is.

[449] Okay, so now it's time for Karen's story.

[450] Speaking of fucked up, this is like one of the darkest.

[451] So awful.

[452] And like early on, we were just like going in hot with the darks.

[453] This is Karen's story of the L .A. Freeway Killers of the 1970s.

[454] It's your murder.

[455] I'm like a moxley.

[456] Well, my, so I picked mine because we were talking about hitchhiking.

[457] and laughing about how insanely dangerous and crazy hitchhiking is.

[458] And so I went to look up why we think that and know that and what the story, what the actual stories and murders are behind that.

[459] And it turns out that I looked up freeway killer because I remember hearing there was like the story of the one guy with the van on the freeway.

[460] It turns out there were three.

[461] Wow.

[462] And between like the mid -70s and 1980, There were three serial killers that dumped bodies on freeways in Los Angeles and Southern California, working all at the same time.

[463] In this area?

[464] In this area.

[465] And on top of that, in the same time frame were the hillside stranglers.

[466] Yeah.

[467] And so they weren't even counted in this.

[468] Because they'd dump bodies.

[469] Yeah, but they'd dump bodies in the hills.

[470] So they would take women off the streets.

[471] Okay.

[472] And then they would, they, it was where they were dumping in the hills.

[473] That's what they called them hillside.

[474] They thought it was one guy doing it, like, as if they were walking up there and then realized they were bringing bodies to there.

[475] I just think it's crazy that when two people joined forces and are both in agreement that they want to do the same.

[476] Like, it's insane.

[477] How do you find someone like that?

[478] Okay, that's exactly right.

[479] And here's why I love the story, because the guy I focused on is William Bonnan.

[480] He had four accomplices over his, I believe, it was just a year or it was like a year and a half where he was doing the most of these killers.

[481] killings, sorry, and he had four different people who helped him.

[482] That's insane.

[483] It's crazy.

[484] Something was going on in the late 70s because that's also when Bundy, when John Wing -Gasey, like, it was all around 1978.

[485] There was this weird explosion of like, maybe it was just that people learned about what it was and the story started coming out.

[486] Like, Dommer was later, right?

[487] Dommer was later, yeah.

[488] Yeah, I mean, or, because the term, serial killer wasn't even coined until, but I didn't mean that they weren't doing it.

[489] They weren't doing that.

[490] Right.

[491] I just don't think people understood.

[492] And also, how do you introduce that concept to, like, without introducing huge mass panic?

[493] So one of the guys, I'll just tell you the other ones first.

[494] One was the scorecard killer.

[495] And this was a guy named Randy Kraft.

[496] So from 1972 to 1983, he killed, for sure, 16 boys, but they think 51.

[497] 51.

[498] And there was also, so, and he, they call him scorecard killer because he kept this really long list where he had code words for the people that he killed.

[499] So they were able to track.

[500] That's why they know it's at least 51 because there would just be a word that would say like tank top or whatever that would somehow relate to the victim.

[501] Oh my God.

[502] Yeah.

[503] It's crazy.

[504] And he was like, he looked like anyone in the store.

[505] When you see pictures.

[506] He looks like a high school teacher.

[507] Holy shit.

[508] He looks like he would have been on an episode of Mary Tyler Moore.

[509] He has like kind of a pointy nose and like he has kind of a jolly looking face.

[510] He's like, he's a guy in the 70s.

[511] A guy in the 70s just like, hey, come on, do you need a ride?

[512] And he would pick up little kids?

[513] He would pick up men of any kind.

[514] Okay.

[515] And then he would brutally, he would brutally rape them and then dump their bodies.

[516] There was also Patrick Wayne Kearney, who.

[517] worked from 75 to 77, who killed definitely 28.

[518] Holy shit, that's two years.

[519] He killed 28 people?

[520] 28.

[521] And they think 43.

[522] They just can only pin 28 on him.

[523] Yeah, like there's no way he didn't start earlier and they just don't know yet.

[524] Right, exactly.

[525] And especially because at this time, imagine three of these people doing this at once.

[526] And this guy would pick up hitchhikers, shoot them in the head, then do stuff to their bodies, and then wrap them in trash bags.

[527] And keep their heads?

[528] Is that him?

[529] No. Not that I know of.

[530] No, I don't think so.

[531] I think that's, uh, anyways.

[532] Uh, yeah.

[533] This is one of these people?

[534] No. Well, anyway.

[535] Can you imagine like living right now and like, like how, you know, summer of Sam how like, yeah, there's a person killing people out there right now.

[536] Like, I just wouldn't leave the house anymore.

[537] I know.

[538] And three.

[539] Three at a time.

[540] There's three of them that at any given time could be driving down any fucking street.

[541] But the key in this, in all three of these, and the reason that they didn't go, that they went on Solve for so long is because they were gay.

[542] It was gay boys and it was, it was that situation of boy hitchhikers, usually young.

[543] And for William Bonin, his youngest was 12, a little boy who was trying to get to Disneyland.

[544] And, but William Bonnan is like the worst, the worst of the worst.

[545] Um, we can just go through his super quick, because it's just a humongous bummer.

[546] Okay.

[547] He's kind of got shades of Charles Manson in that way where it was never okay for him from day one.

[548] Yeah.

[549] So he, he was born to two, two alcoholic parents.

[550] And, um, the mom left him and his two brothers with her father who molested her and who molested the boys.

[551] Oh, they.

[552] Then he, he ran away when he was nine.

[553] and he got arrested for stealing license plates and he got sent to a boys you know like Juvie basically for boys where he was again raped and molested we can talk about this person and at least draw a strain of like with that why question that I always have with this like you cannot torture human beings like this.

[554] How do you create a serial killer just follow this guy's life?

[555] Yeah basically and you know neglect they were like the neighborhood people said that they looked like they were starving all the time.

[556] They were like, you know, they were completely neglected children who then of course became criminals because what else were they going to do?

[557] Well, it's the thing of like, where do you go?

[558] At what point do you switch from feeling sorry for this child to thinking that this man should be dead?

[559] You know, like there's like a moment.

[560] I guess it's when he kills the first person he ever killed.

[561] Yeah, because there's a lot of people that get molested and fucked with those children who never do.

[562] do anything bad to other people.

[563] So there's definitely that element of responsibility, but it's just like, you just see that thing where, like, that mother couldn't be responsible enough to go, I'm going to get you out of this cycle of abuse and not let what happened to me happen to you.

[564] But how horrible that is.

[565] So anyway, he, of course, then when he gets out of, like, that juvie, he starts molesting kids in the neighborhood.

[566] I mean, this is just like now with the thing that he does.

[567] Yeah.

[568] He gets arrested for it once.

[569] Then he gets sent to, I think he goes to Vietnam, has a full tour in the air.

[570] He joins the Air Force.

[571] He came back.

[572] He was in Vietnam from 69 to 71, came back and immediately started kidnapping and raping boys.

[573] He did it to five boys.

[574] Can you imagine the fucking fondling he did in Vietnam?

[575] Yeah.

[576] Like that was like a free for all for him, I bet.

[577] I'm sure.

[578] Yeah.

[579] He could do anything he wanted.

[580] So he comes back.

[581] He gets caught for kidnapping and raping five different boys.

[582] They send him to a mental hospital.

[583] Oh, great.

[584] So he goes from being in a mental hospital.

[585] In the mental hospital, they say he can't be rehabilitated.

[586] So they send him to real jail.

[587] But then he's released in 1974 because there they decide he's no longer a danger to others.

[588] You've got to be kidding.

[589] And so 16 months later, he's charged with the gunpoint rape of a 14 -year -old hitchhiker and the attempted abduction of another teen.

[590] So he's sentenced from one to 15 years in jail.

[591] From one to 15 years?

[592] How cute is that?

[593] Yeah.

[594] Just, you know what?

[595] Go think about what you did for a little while.

[596] A year.

[597] That you've been doing your entire life.

[598] The fucking penal system, of all these stories of horrific things, I'm usually the most disturbed and disgusted by how little time people get.

[599] for heinous the crimes.

[600] Well, when are rape and child molester are going to start being really seen as like these are people who should not be in, should not be getting out in six months?

[601] I don't know, but when that happens, they're going to stop putting a fucking statute of limitations on prosecuting people for rape.

[602] Yeah.

[603] There's a statute of limitations for rape and kidnapping.

[604] Yeah.

[605] How fucking, how fucked up is that?

[606] Yeah, it's insane.

[607] So the cops can't find the dude who raped and kidnapped you for 15 years.

[608] He got away.

[609] He's free now.

[610] Sure.

[611] Do what you want.

[612] Boys will be boys.

[613] Yeah.

[614] So in 1978, he's released from jail and he moved to Downey.

[615] Oh my God, I was just in Downey.

[616] And I read the, I had breakfast and I read the criminal section of their newspaper.

[617] Did you?

[618] Yeah, it's fun.

[619] Anything exciting happening in Downey?

[620] There was a home invasion robbery.

[621] Yeah.

[622] Oh, okay.

[623] It's not too bad.

[624] No. They later found out that he murdered.

[625] a 13 -year -old hitchhiker, but he was ultimately arrested for molesting a boy in Dana Point, should have gone back to prison because he was on parole at the time.

[626] But due to a clerical error, clerical error, he was released.

[627] Someone spelled his last name wrong.

[628] Exactly.

[629] He walked right out of the jail and he got picked up by his main accomplice for all of these murders.

[630] A man named, what is it, something buts.

[631] something something buts it's a classic name so anyway and that's when he tells he tells butts now there's not going to be any more witnesses that's what you're creating when you keep letting these people when you keep arresting them for one to 15 years is that they learn the lesson not to let anyone identify them right so you should kill them yeah so then he makes this what they ended up calling like the death machine or something and it's this green Fort O 'Connelline van that he's got chains, he's got like handcuffs, he's got all this stuff, and they would pick up hitchhikers, the butts guy would be in the back.

[632] And then they basically, he'd like pull over and like attack and rape.

[633] And he was a big strangler.

[634] He, for most of his victims, he strangled them with a t -shirt.

[635] And that's how that's how he killed most of them.

[636] And, uh, uh, uh, Vernon butts.

[637] That was his first name.

[638] Vernon.

[639] And they also were lovers.

[640] Uh, and they played Dungeon and Dragons in the sewer system of Los Angeles.

[641] The fuck.

[642] That was just a small detail that I wrote on the side of here that I remembered.

[643] And I just am fascinated.

[644] That's, that's just, we could kind of go into that for quite some time.

[645] But I find that fascinating.

[646] This isn't a gaming podcast.

[647] Otherwise, we would get.

[648] He would get deep into Vernon butts.

[649] So into it.

[650] Oh, so basically it's just, he then, it was basically a year -long tear where they went and picked up, you know, what they think is, I think he got prosecuted.

[651] What did I say?

[652] He got prosecuted for 16.

[653] She was.

[654] No, he got prosecuted for 14, but they think he did 44 murders.

[655] That is the most staggering number.

[656] I mean, people were getting fucking kidnapped left and right.

[657] Just boys disappearing everywhere.

[658] And apparently there was a reporter at the Orange County Register, which is, as you know, Orange County is very Republican, very white Republican kind of Christian area in Southern California.

[659] And he found an envelope at the Southern County Register with all the paper clippings of all these different individual stories of hitchhikers or bodies that were found murdered.

[660] And on the front of the envelope, it said dead gay boys.

[661] So he was like, why isn't anybody looking at this as like some trend at the very least?

[662] But that was basically, he kind of wrote, I think he wrote a book, he wrote something about that I was reading part of that was basically all about how the attitude was like, well, too bad for them because they signed up for that lifestyle.

[663] It's the same as prostitutes.

[664] Yeah.

[665] It's like, well, they live a, what was it a high risk lifestyle?

[666] Right.

[667] They chose to live a high risk lifestyle.

[668] Yeah.

[669] Which is so, oh, okay, you're right.

[670] So then any serial killer should get to do whatever you want.

[671] That's bananas.

[672] It's super crazy.

[673] I can't believe.

[674] I mean, just the thought of knowing that there are those people out there.

[675] I mean, there are now, but like in your, working actively in your, in your hood?

[676] In your hood.

[677] Well, and also down here, I mean, there was so much murder down here.

[678] And also 78 was the same year as Jones Town.

[679] Like, there was something, there was something in the air.

[680] Great job.

[681] Oh, thank you.

[682] Thank you.

[683] So much, so much to unpack there.

[684] Yeah.

[685] So, well, and it also reflects the way we used to tell these stories, which is kind of partially researched.

[686] There's a lot of information I didn't give in this that we do have now to give.

[687] So I didn't talk about what happened to William Bonnan in this episode.

[688] So in late May of 1980, William Pugh, who was an accomplice, was arrested on for stealing a car.

[689] He wound up telling detectives that Bonin was the freeway killer.

[690] So police surveilled Bonin in June of 1980.

[691] They actually caught him raping a 15 -year -old boy in a parking lot.

[692] That's just unbelievable.

[693] Caught him in the act.

[694] So he was arrested, and he had four accomplices.

[695] And those accomplices all agreed to testify against him so that they could escape the death penalty.

[696] But one of them, before he was able to appear in court, died by suicide.

[697] Ultimately, Bonham was convicted of 14 murders.

[698] He admitted to killing 21 people.

[699] Oh, my God.

[700] What a monster.

[701] And they believe the victim count is actually much higher.

[702] But he was tried in both Los Angeles County and Orange County.

[703] He was sentenced to death in 1982 for the 10 murders in Los Angeles.

[704] A year later, he was given a second death penalty sentence for four.

[705] of the murders that took place in Orange County.

[706] He was on death row for 14 years, and he died by lethal injection at San Quentin in 1996.

[707] And he was actually the first prisoner in California to die by lethal injection.

[708] Wow.

[709] I know.

[710] So this was back when, in my mind, I thought that if we didn't name the victims, that was more respectful.

[711] Yes, I agreed at the time.

[712] Yeah.

[713] So we have learned.

[714] well how that's just incorrect.

[715] And so no victims were named when I did it last time.

[716] So I would like to name the 14 men and boys who were murdered.

[717] Dennis Frank Fox who was 17.

[718] Glenn Barker who was 14.

[719] Russell Rue, who is 15.

[720] Lawrence Sharp 17.

[721] Marcus Grabs, who was 17.

[722] Donald Hayden, who was 15.

[723] David Merlo, who was 17.

[724] Charles Miranda, who's 15.

[725] James McCabe, who was 12 years old, Ronald Gatlin, who was 19, Harry Todd Turner, who was 14, Stephen Wood, who is 16, Darren Lee Kendrick, who is 19, and Stephen Jay Wells, who was 18 years old.

[726] So just, I feel like that was probably the beginning of our reality check of, like, what we're doing is much, much bigger than the idea we had when we started the podcast, which is you and I are going to talk about an interest.

[727] Right.

[728] And it turns out our interest isn't murderers.

[729] It's these stories of these people whose lives are forever changed because of these monsters.

[730] So to focus on them more is how we wanted to move forward.

[731] Right.

[732] Yes.

[733] And that the interest of what the serial killers do, which I think in the whole early part of the catalog, is like the concept of we love serial killers where it's like we are interested.

[734] in the psychology that gets a person to the point where they are driving around on the L .A. freeways picking up teenagers and murdering them.

[735] Yeah.

[736] How does a person become that monster?

[737] Yeah.

[738] And how could we recognize it if it was anywhere around us?

[739] Right.

[740] Right.

[741] And like, yeah, let's also not pretend it doesn't happen because we are not that kind of people.

[742] We have the anxiety to prove it.

[743] Right.

[744] Exactly.

[745] And then a perfect hometown email to end it.

[746] One of the greats.

[747] Let's hear it.

[748] Oh, wait, no, now we get to read some of your hometown murders.

[749] We've asked you guys to send us hometown murders because we love it and you've done it.

[750] And we appreciate it.

[751] We have a Facebook group, My Favorite Murder, and we have a Gmail account, My Favorite Murder.

[752] So you can send us your hometown murders.

[753] This is by Mark Schrum.

[754] Hi, Mark.

[755] Hi, Mark.

[756] He's very nice.

[757] He said, I hope I have the right email.

[758] If not, I'm sorry for the frightening subject line.

[759] Because if it went to the wrong person, it just is my favorite murder.

[760] You open up your email and you're like, there's just someone describing a murder to you.

[761] How you would be shitting a brick.

[762] That's hilarious.

[763] Mark, he says, when I was a freshman in high school, there was a high profile kidnapping case here in West Des Moines, Iowa.

[764] Maybe you heard of it.

[765] It was the Johnny Gorsh, Gosh, Johnny Gosh case.

[766] Yes.

[767] It's pretty well known nationwide and drug.

[768] on for years and isn't 100 % solved for this day.

[769] This happened in 1982.

[770] He was a paper boy and was kidnapped while doing his paper route one morning.

[771] Didn't they just find his bike?

[772] And that's it.

[773] Yeah, I think so.

[774] There was another boy, Eugene Martin, that was taken in 1984.

[775] Same story.

[776] He was a paper boy.

[777] My story comes in in 1983 when I was a paper boy.

[778] Mark, your mom should not have let you be a paper boy.

[779] Mark.

[780] My brother and I were delivering papers one morning and it was still dark.

[781] We were on a street that the houses were pretty far apart and set back from the road so we weren't right on the street.

[782] I looked up the street and saw a blue panel van coming down the street extremely slow with no headlights on.

[783] Uh -oh.

[784] As we walked, it kept following.

[785] My brother from the street, wait, my brother and I had walkie -talkies.

[786] Awesome.

[787] Nice.

[788] So we were communicating about it and we decided to run and head behind the houses to get away from the street and meet up a few houses down.

[789] As we took off running, the van took off down the street and finally after a few houses, is turn the lights on and sped away.

[790] Is I going to me next?

[791] I guess I'll never know.

[792] About five minutes later, we saw our manager told him and he called it into the paper dispatch.

[793] I don't know what from there, but I was never questioned by the police.

[794] And one year later, Eugene was gone.

[795] Haunts me to this day, even though you are only one of the handful of people I've ever spoken to about it since it happened.

[796] Wow, Mark.

[797] He said, keep up the good work and don't ever remove the humor from the podcast.

[798] We're doing that.

[799] It's just depressing.

[800] We did it a little bit on this one.

[801] He said, it isn't being disrespectful and you aren't going to hell.

[802] We're just coping with a fucked up world in the best way we know how.

[803] And he wrote F up.

[804] Thank you, Mark.

[805] Thank you, Mark.

[806] That's so true.

[807] It's coping.

[808] It's coping.

[809] But, wow, ground zero at the Johnny Gosh.

[810] There was no way that wasn't involved.

[811] He was in the middle between two boys, paper boys being kidnapped.

[812] I'm sorry.

[813] If you're driving a van, you should be pulled over more than people of color.

[814] Vans are, what good is happening in vans?

[815] Especially like a green van with their headlights off, slowly cruising down the street.

[816] Please.

[817] You're the biggest child monster.

[818] My guy that I just did, William Bonin had a green van who murdered so many people.

[819] It's like you're either a serial killer or your Scooby -Doo team.

[820] Yes.

[821] But Scooby -Doo, they were smart enough to put pink daisies on the side, which is really declared.

[822] It's a decoy.

[823] It was the mystery machine, but it actually means rape and murder.

[824] It's kind of like also my story that I covered, this idea that at this time, children were roaming freely and alone all the time, everywhere.

[825] No supervision, no concern.

[826] Oh, if a child's missing, they're a runaway.

[827] Don't worry about it.

[828] Give it 48 hours.

[829] The casual neglect of truly children is, it's.

[830] just so wild.

[831] It's mind -boggling.

[832] It's mind -boggling, I think, especially for people today to realize, for people who grew up in the 2000s, you know, with helicopter parents, how free you were back then, and how easy it was to be just targeted by a predator.

[833] Yeah, because no one talked about any of this stuff.

[834] I mean, that's the kind of thing that it is cool to think about when people criticize other people, women, following true crime, talking about it makes people aware and understand and takes away that kind of, we get to talk about stuff like, if a man is asking you for help, why would a man want a child's help?

[835] That kind of stuff that is super important and used to be like, how dare you talk about that?

[836] I also love the idea that we got away from the term, which I don't think was even around then, stranger danger, because that's not the fucking danger most of the time.

[837] The danger is right next.

[838] you right there at home.

[839] So we have learned so much from us, women, mostly, studying true crime, you know, and being fascinated.

[840] Yeah, and putting true crime through not the lens of salacious celebration of a killer.

[841] Right.

[842] And what was John Wayne Gacy doing?

[843] It's more of like, what's happening here, what's the pattern here, who is at risk?

[844] Yeah.

[845] I don't know.

[846] I think it's kind of interesting.

[847] Signs to look out for, yeah.

[848] Yeah.

[849] Yeah.

[850] So thank you, Mark from Des Moines, for sending in that gorgeous hometown.

[851] So sorry you went through that.

[852] It's such a scary.

[853] That's another case where it's like years and years and years later.

[854] Yeah.

[855] And just the case you're new here, you can send your hometown, whatever it is, to my favorite murder at Gmail.

[856] Every week we have a mini episode just reading those.

[857] Yeah.

[858] So if you like that, you can listen.

[859] Be a part of it.

[860] Be a part.

[861] All right.

[862] Well, I think we're done.

[863] And the thing that we like to do now is, This was the era where we did pun titles.

[864] And, of course, now we pick the titles of the episodes based on things that we say within the episode.

[865] Yes.

[866] So the title of this originally was five favorite murders because it rhymes, I guess.

[867] That doesn't mind.

[868] You know what I mean?

[869] Five favorite.

[870] Yeah.

[871] It goes together.

[872] Like you could tell we were already like, oh, no. I can't think of one.

[873] I'm sure it was like, I can think one I have to go.

[874] Like to go to work.

[875] So, okay, what do you have?

[876] Oh, I guess there was a part where I jokingly said, talking about my interest in crimes of passion, I said crimes of portions.

[877] And...

[878] Crimes of portions is...

[879] Crimes of portions is pretty great.

[880] I like Tony Town because I was telling you that Greenwich is a Tony Town and you love the word Tony.

[881] Yes.

[882] So Tony Townie is a really good way to describe rich people areas.

[883] It's Tony.

[884] Yeah.

[885] I said to you, why?

[886] Because I have a legal pad?

[887] Because you said it looked like my story was well researched because I was holding a legal pad.

[888] Yes.

[889] You have a legal pad and a pen behind your ear.

[890] I am following your directions because you're the manager.

[891] Imagine what you'd do if I had a clipboard.

[892] Oh, shit.

[893] There's also lawyer for the ocean, which of course is what I thought Martha Moxley would have become had she had the chance to live our full life.

[894] Yeah.

[895] Yeah.

[896] You can tell us which one you like.

[897] That's right.

[898] There's poles.

[899] Poles.

[900] We have polls.

[901] There's so many ways to interact.

[902] Yeah, at my favorite murder on everything.

[903] Wow.

[904] Well, thanks for listening to Another Rewind, guys.

[905] I hope you like these.

[906] We love guiding through our past.

[907] Yeah.

[908] Do you feel like a day one listener?

[909] Because you are one.

[910] You're now a day one listener.

[911] We also still want to give props to the real day one listeners.

[912] I feel like some of them are a little annoyed that everyone's going to think they're dayline.

[913] Everyone else, you know what I mean?

[914] Like, there's something special about it.

[915] So like, props to you.

[916] Well, maybe we'll figure out some merch that day one listener.

[917] only can order.

[918] Yes.

[919] But you have to come with your seats.

[920] I don't know how.

[921] What?

[922] Oh, for seats.

[923] You have to somehow be able to prove that you hit play on episode one.

[924] Yeah.

[925] We'll be able to test your mental health.

[926] That's how we'll know.

[927] Oh, that's right.

[928] People that seem especially shaky.

[929] We're like, yeah, that's one of our day one of our day one listener.

[930] They've been through the shit with us.

[931] Well, thanks for listening.

[932] Yes.

[933] Stay sexy.

[934] And don't get murdered.

[935] Goodbye.

[936] Elvis, do you want a cookie?