#164 – Andrew Huberman: Sleep, Dreams, Creativity & the Limits of the Human Mind

[0] The following is a conversation with Andrew Huberman, his second time in the podcast.

[1] He's a neuroscientist at Stanford, a world -class researcher and educator, and now he has a new podcast on YouTube and all the usual places called Huberman Lab that I can't recommend highly enough.

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[6] And I'm pretty sure Andrew will have a neuroscience masterclass on there soon enough, though his podcast is basically a weekly masterclass in itself.

[7] As a side note, let me say that Andrew is a friend and a new collaborator.

[8] We're working on a paper together about a topic we're both really passionate about.

[9] at the intersection of neuroscience and machine learning.

[10] But that's probably many months away from being published.

[11] Still, I'm really excited about this work.

[12] He's one of the smartest and kindest people I have the pleasure of talking to on this podcast, so I hope we'll talk many more times in the future.

[13] If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it, and have a podcast, follow on Spotify, support it on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

[14] As usual, I'll do all of the ads now, none in the middle.

[15] I'll try to improvise and rant a little bit more than I've done in the past.

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[24] So you have the MIT courses that I've been a part of and you have open courseware that can teach stuff.

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[39] No, friends, it does not.

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[49] Low carb, keto -friendly cereal, it has zero sugar, 11 grams of protein, and only three net grams of carbs.

[50] If you know what's good for you, you'll go with a cocoa flavor, my favorite flavor and the flavor of champions.

[51] Actually, speaking of Coco, I got a chance to exchange a bunch of messages with the great Joey Diaz, Joey Coco Diaz.

[52] He is, as Joe Rogan says, the sweetest human being.

[53] It's kind of incredible, actually, how much care he has.

[54] Given how sort of edgy his comedy is, there's so much love underneath that, that is just beautiful.

[55] I do hope I get to talk to him on this podcast.

[56] Eventually, he's just a special human being.

[57] I just felt the love.

[58] It was great.

[59] Plus, I was a bit starstruck.

[60] I mean, the whole thing is amazing.

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[65] I've mentioned before that I actually wanted to be a psychiatrist when I was younger.

[66] It was a way for me to try to understand the human mind.

[67] And of course, talk therapy or, you know, psychotherapy was a fascinating tool in my mind of exploring the human mind.

[68] And I suppose you can think of podcast as a kind of psychotherapy.

[69] Maybe for me. Maybe that's the reason I'm doing this thing in general.

[70] But there's also other forms.

[71] Like I'm doing the Gagans challenge.

[72] that's a kind of therapy.

[73] I'll be alone with my thoughts and with a madman, Mr. David Gockens.

[74] So in a Freudian sense, I'm sure I'm going to discover something about myself, something maybe that I don't want to discover, but probably something I definitely need to work through.

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[78] I think one of the luxuries I have now is there's so many people that want to advocate on this podcast.

[79] I'm starting to care less and less in reading the copy they give me. I'm just going to go off script and just speak from the heart.

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[81] Who cares?

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[84] Okay.

[85] And now finally, here's my conversation with Andrew Huberman.

[86] Why do humans need sleep?

[87] Let's go with a big first question.

[88] The answer I'll start with is the one that I always default to when there's a why question.

[89] I wasn't consulted at the design phase.

[90] So I wriggle my way out of giving a absolute answer, right?

[91] But there's one mechanism that's very clear that's super important, which is that the longer we are awake, the more adenosine accumulates in our brain.

[92] And adenosine binds to adenosine receptors, no surprise there.

[93] And it creates the feeling of sleepiness, independent of time of day or night.

[94] So there are two mechanisms.

[95] One is we get sleepy as adenosine accumulates.

[96] The longer we've been awake, the more adenosine is accumulated in our system.

[97] But how sleepy we get for a given amount of adenosine depends on where we are in this so -called circadian cycle.

[98] And the circadian cycle is just this very, very well -conserved oscillation.

[99] It's a temperature oscillation where you go from a low point.

[100] Typically, if you're awake during the day and you're asleep at night, your lowest temperature point will be like 3 a .m. 4 a .m. and then your temperature will start to creep up as you wake up in the morning and then it'll peak in the late afternoon and then it'll start to drop again toward the evening and then you get sleep again.

[101] That oscillation in temperature takes 24 hours.

[102] temperature.

[103] Yeah, plus or minus an hour.

[104] And I don't, even though I wasn't consulted at the design phase, I do not think it's a coincidence that it's aligned to the 24 -hour spin of the earth on its axis and the fact that we tend to be bathed in sunlight for a portion of that spin and in darkness for the other portion of that spin.

[105] So there are two mechanisms, the adenosine accumulation and the circadian time point that we happen to be at.

[106] And those converge to create a sense of sleepiness, awakefulness.

[107] The simple way to reveal these two mechanisms to uncouple them is stay up for 24 hours and you will find that even though you've been, let's say you stay up midnight, 2 a .m., 3 a .m., provided you're on a regular schedule, like that I follow, not like the kind that you follow, I will get very sleepy around 3, 4 a .m. But then around 5 or 6 or 7 a .m., which is my normal wake up time, I'll start to feel more alert, even though adenicine has been accumulating.

[108] further.

[109] So adenosine is higher for me the longer I stay up and yet I feel more alert than I did a few hours ago.

[110] And that's because these are two interacting forces.

[111] So adenosine makes you sleepy and then just how sleepy or how awake you feel also depends on where you are in this temperature oscillation that takes 24 out.

[112] Okay.

[113] So that's fascinating.

[114] So there's a bunch of oscillations going on and then they kind of through the evolutionary process have evolved to all be aligned somewhat.

[115] And they interplay.

[116] So you said your body temperature goes up and down.

[117] There's chemicals in your brain that oscillate.

[118] And then there's the actual oscillation of the sun in the sky.

[119] So all of that together has some impact on each other.

[120] And somehow that all results in us wanting to go sleep every night.

[121] Right.

[122] So, and we can get right into the me to this.

[123] I guess we just dove right in.

[124] But the, so that the temperature oscillation is the effector of the circadian clock.

[125] So every cell in our body has a 24 -hour rhythm that's dictated by genes like clock per be -mout.

[126] This is one of the great successes of biology.

[127] They give a Nobel prize to the Rupert.

[128] I don't know if Repard got it.

[129] Forgive me. But sorry, if you got it, Steve, congratulations.

[130] If you didn't, I'm sorry, I wasn't on the committee.

[131] Nonetheless, did beautiful work, Steve Rappert and others.

[132] But my.

[133] Mike Roshbosch and like other people worked out these mechanisms in flies and bacteria and mammals, there are these genes that create 24 -hour oscillations in gene expression, et cetera, in every cell of our body.

[134] But what aligns those is a signal from the master circadian clock, which sits right above the roof of the mouth, called the superkiosmatic nucleus.

[135] And that clock synchronizes all the clocks of the body to this general temperature rhythm by way of controlling systemic temperature, which makes perfect sense.

[136] If you want to create a general oscillation in all the tissues and organs of the body, use temperature.

[137] And so that work on temperature, if people want to explore it further, was Joe Takahashi, who was at Northwestern now at U .T. Southwestern in Dallas.

[138] And it is absolutely clear that humans do better on a diurnal schedule, sorry Lex, than a nocturnal schedule.

[139] Because you could say, well, provided I sleep and push adenosine back downhill, which is what happens when we sleep, adenosine is then reduced, and provided I am on more or less a 24 -hour schedule, why should it matter that I'm awake when the sun's out and I'm asleep when the sun is down?

[140] But it turns out that if you look at health metrics, people that are strictly nocturnal do far worse on immune function, on metabolic function, et cetera, than people who are diurnal who are awake during the daytime.

[141] And animals that are nocturnal, it's the opposite.

[142] And animals that are so -called crepuscular, which tend to be active at dawn.

[143] in at dusk.

[144] This is a beautiful system.

[145] I won't go down that rabbit hole, but these are animals whose visual systems operate best.

[146] They tend to be predators like mountain lions.

[147] They have optimized their waking times for the times when the animals they eat can't see well in those light conditions.

[148] But given the rod cone ratios in their eyes, the mountain line is picking off.

[149] It's like when you see special forces and they are looking through night vision goggles and they have a clear advantage, right?

[150] They're seeing in the dark.

[151] That's basically what it's like to be a mountain line as opposed to a bunny rabbit.

[152] Would you say that a lot of these cycles evolved in the predator -prey relationships of the different throughout the food chain?

[153] So it's basically all somehow has to do with survival in this complicated web of predators and prey?

[154] Almost certainly.

[155] There had to have been a time in which humans being awake and active at night as opposed to during the day led to higher levels of lethality and probably particular in kids.

[156] You imagine kids running around in the dark and getting where there are a lot of animals that can see really well under those conditions and humans can't.

[157] And this would be all pre -electricity.

[158] Even if you're carrying a torch, I mean, the range of illumination on a torch is nothing compared to what a nighttime predator like a large cat or something can do.

[159] I mean, they basically can see everything they need to in order to eat us and not the other way around.

[160] So one fascinating thing you said is that blew my mind and we went right past it, which is the temperature is a really powerful, like if you were to think about the ways that different parts of the body, different systems in the body would communicate with each other, temperature would be a really good one.

[161] And that just, I mean, maybe it's obvious, but it kind of blew my mind just now that, yeah, these systems are all distributed.

[162] Right.

[163] And they have to kind of, they're not actually sending signals, but they're coordinating.

[164] They need some sort of universal thing to look at in order to coordinate.

[165] And temperature is a nice one to build around.

[166] And that way, you could control the behavior of all these different systems by controlling the temperature.

[167] Right.

[168] It's attractive to think of a mechanism where this master circadian clock secretes a peptide or something that goes and locks to receptors in all the cells and gets it just right.

[169] But that leaves far too much room for variability, binding affinities, cells in a lot of parts of our body are at different stages of maturation.

[170] They're turning over, liver cells and so forth.

[171] And for instance, we have a clock in our gut and in our liver, such that if we were just take out your liver and put it on a table and just look at the expression of these genes, it would be in a 24 -hour oscillation on its own.

[172] It's independent.

[173] But something has to entrain them and keep them all synchronized.

[174] And so it's not obvious that it would be temperature.

[175] Takahashi's great gift to biology was to show that all the stuff coming out of this master circadian clock at the end of the day, that's a weird statement, no pun intended, at the end of the day and the night, at the end of the story, it all boils down to making sure that the temperature of tissues oscillates in the same fashion.

[176] That's blowing my mind and thinking like what other mechanism could possibly exist to create that kind of oscillation.

[177] Well, you're Russian, it's cold in Russia for a lot of the year, the hibernation signal in certain animals is a remarkable signal.

[178] There are peptides secreted from this very same clock that in animals like ground squirrels or bears, they go into a kind of a torpor where everything, reproduction, metabolism, everything is reduced while they're in their cave.

[179] They don't actually stay asleep all of winter.

[180] That's a myth.

[181] And they actually do these very dramatic and periodic arousal.

[182] from hibernation where they just shake and shake and shake it looks like a seizure and then they go back under into the torpor that's from a peptide that's released but that's different because that's about shutting down the whole system it's clear that having these very regular oscillations every 24 hours is essential for everything from metabolism to reproduction is there an optimal temperature for sleep that I should mention I think your latest episode you and people should go check out Helixleep .com slash Huberman to support Andrew.

[183] Thanks for the plug.

[184] I mean, the amazing thing about the stuff they're creating, oh, and yes, you have a new podcast.

[185] That's amazing.

[186] And this past month, he did a whole series on Sleep, which people should definitely check out.

[187] There's some podcasts that come out.

[188] that just make me want to be a better human being by just the quality.

[189] Three Blue One Brown, Grant Sanderson is like that for me. Just like, wow, this is education is best.

[190] So Andrew symbolizes that and captures that brilliantly.

[191] So go support the sponsor, so he doesn't stop doing the thing.

[192] So they, I think they have a cooling pad too.

[193] So I, eight sleep mattress sponsors me. They've been, they sent me a mattress and has been, I've never, listen, I used to sleep on the floor.

[194] Sleep where you fall.

[195] Sleep where I fall.

[196] I don't give a shit.

[197] It doesn't really matter.

[198] But so like I would have never bought a nice mattress because it's like, why?

[199] I'm fine.

[200] This is the floor.

[201] It's fine.

[202] But it was a game changer to be able to control temperature.

[203] Like for me, it's cooling to cool.

[204] I don't know what the hell it is.

[205] Well, you want the brain.

[206] nervous system and rest of the body needs to drop by about anywhere from two to three degrees in order to get into your deepest sleep and transition to sleep, that's really going to help.

[207] You don't want to be cold that you're bothered and can't fall asleep, but that's why some people like it really cold in the room and under a warm blanket or with socks on for some people that can be good because this temperature oscillation is such that as your temperature is dropping, that correlates with generally with the most sleepy phase of your circadian cycle.

[208] So cool is better for falling and staying asleep and sleeping deeply.

[209] And then I guess, like, that's what eight sleep showed.

[210] They have like an app is it warms back up to wake you up.

[211] The idea that I haven't actually used it.

[212] I'm like, this is stupid.

[213] People say it works, but I just keep it the same temperature throughout the night.

[214] But warming it up, I guess, wakes you up, which is fascinating.

[215] Yeah, because the wake -up signal is, it's interesting.

[216] to think about it.

[217] It's not just correlated with an increase in body temperature.

[218] The increase in body temperature is triggering the release of cortisol from your adrenals, and that's the wake -up signal.

[219] Do you think it's absolute temperatures we're talking about is just even relative, just even just the decrease?

[220] Well, everyone's going to have slightly different basal temperature.

[221] The idea that everybody should be 98 .6, I mean, that's a myth.

[222] And there are the theories that body temperature overall has been dropping in the last 50 years or so.

[223] I doubt that's true for somebody who is athletic like you and is young and healthy.

[224] But basically the coldest period of that 24 -hour cycle is when you are going to be sleepiest.

[225] There's actually a period within that 24 -hour cycle.

[226] It's a time point called your temperature minimum.

[227] And your temperature minimum tends to be about two hours before your typical wake -up time.

[228] I'm not talking about the wake -up time in the middle of the night where you go use the bathroom or where you set an alarm to go catch a flight.

[229] I or to just allow yourself to sleep without a clock for a few days, measure when you typically wake up.

[230] Two hours before then is your temperature minimum.

[231] And that temperature minimum turns out to be a very important landmark in your circadian cycle because it turns out that if you get bright light in your eyes in the hours immediately before your temperature minimum, so two to four hours or any time within the two or four hour window before that temperature minimum, you are going to what's called delay your circadian clock.

[232] The next day, that whole oscillation is going to move forward.

[233] It will make you want to go to sleep later and wake up later.

[234] Whereas if you get bright light in your eyes in the hours after that temperature minimum, so let's say for me, typical wake up time is 6 a .m. My temperature minimum is somewhere around 4 a .m. If I get bright light in my eyes 5 a .m. 6 a .m. 7 a .m. It's going to advance that oscillation so that I'll want to go to bed earlier and wake up earlier the subsequent nights.

[235] So you might say, wait, but most nights I go to sleep and wake up at more or less the same time.

[236] Why is that?

[237] And that's because the same thing is happening on both sides.

[238] You are both advancing your clock a little bit and assuming that you're looking at light in the evening.

[239] You're also delaying your clock a little bit.

[240] So you get kind of captured in between.

[241] And then your rhythm more or less oscillates at the same period, as we say, as the spin of the earth, unless you're like you where you're, I guess.

[242] get text messages from you sometimes at odd hours, and if you're on the East Coast, then I know that you had to have been pulling basically an all night.

[243] Yeah, yeah.

[244] That's the interesting point about the messiness of sleep.

[245] So most people seem to perform the best when they have like a regular sleep schedule.

[246] I perhaps am the same, but I don't know that.

[247] And I tend to believe that you can also perform relatively optimally with chaos of sleep of a weird soup of like power naps and all -nighters and all of that as long as you're like happy doing what you love and maybe you can tell me what you think about this so I tend to for myself, tried to minimize stress in life.

[248] So what I found for myself with diet, with sleep, is that if I obsess about it being perfect, then I'll actually stress quite a bit when it's not.

[249] Like, I'll feel shitty when I don't get enough sleep because I know I should be getting more sleep as opposed to the actual physiological effects of not getting enough sleep.

[250] I find if I just accept whatever the hell happens happens and smile and just, you know, take it all in like David Gagin's style, like if it sucks, it's even better.

[251] Or what is it, Jocko?

[252] I was like, good or whatever he says.

[253] Right.

[254] I think there are several things that you said, they're important.

[255] But I agree that one can have a dysregulated sleep schedule and still be a happy person and productive.

[256] Much of my life, I've pulled all -nighters and slept weird.

[257] schedules, you know, I think many people can probably relate to going to sleep, waking up four hours later, being up for an hour or two on your computer, then going back to sleep and getting amazing sleep the next day functioning.

[258] I think we've, I think it's important that people have highlighted the importance of sleep and getting enough rest.

[259] I do think it's gone too far.

[260] And now I'm editorializing a little bit, but I think that we've created this anxiety about sleep that it's, if we don't sleep enough, we're going to get dementia.

[261] if we don't get sleep, then, you know, the reproductive access is going to, you know, completely crash.

[262] You know, there's a lot of evidence to the contrary and as well, just based on personal experience and based on the fact that, sure, it may be that a solid eight hours with no interruptions in there or nine or ten could do great benefit, but you can do really well if you do what you say, which is you wake up, you don't want to start stressing about it, creating this meta -stress about sleep.

[263] being happy it is actually one of the most powerful things that you can do not allowing yourself to go down that rabbit hole of stress for the following reason a lot of our fatigue is not due just to the build up of adenosine or time of day the circadian thing we were talking about earlier an additional factor is that effort is related to the release of epinephrine of adrenaline in our brain and body at some point those levels get so high that we're we get stressed mentally, we get stressed physically and we want to give up.

[264] There are good data published in cell showing that that signal, the epinephrine signal, is eventually accumulates and there's a quit point.

[265] Dopamine, the molecule of pursuit and reward and feeling good, resets our ability to be an effort.

[266] In fact, a lot of people don't know this, but dopamine is actually what epinephrine is made from.

[267] If you look at the biochemical cascade, it starts with tyrosy, which is rich in red, found in red meats and things of that sort.

[268] And tyrosine is eventually converted through things like el -dopa into dopamine.

[269] Dopamine is made into epinephrine.

[270] So, I mean, this sounds kind of new agey, but happiness, joy, and pleasure in what you're doing creates a chemical milieu that provides more of the chemicals that allow for effort.

[271] And there's nothing new agey about that.

[272] It's in every biochemistry textbook.

[273] It's in every decent neuroscience textbook.

[274] They just don't talk about the happiness.

[275] part.

[276] They just talk about the dopamine part.

[277] So I think that limiting your stress and at least recognizing, okay, if you're pulling it all night or you're somehow on messed up sleep, that there is going to be a point in that 24 hour cycle where your brain is not trustworthy, where your mental state is not worth placing too much weight on because you are near that temperature minimum.

[278] And near that temperature minimum, which is correlates to that two hour, about two hours before you would normally wake up, the brain is hobbling along.

[279] And anything you feel or think at that time should not be given too much value.

[280] But if you can trick yourself into thinking that's the pleasure point, you afford yourself a huge advantage.

[281] There's a study done by a colleague of mine at Stanford that showed that positive anticipation about the next day events actually is a powerful metric for creating quality sleep, even if the sleep is very reduced.

[282] And you'll love this one.

[283] And a lot of people are going to, you know, might be critical of this.

[284] So I just want to make sure that.

[285] So this was work done out of Harvard Medical.

[286] It was Bob Stickgold's lab.

[287] And Emily Hoagland did this study that showed looking at O -Chem performance on O -Cem scores.

[288] Okay.

[289] So organic chemistry at Harvard's pretty tough subject.

[290] Highly motivated.

[291] A number of very good control groups in this study.

[292] what she showed was that consistency of total sleep duration was far more important for performance on these exams than total sleep duration itself.

[293] So it's not that just getting more sleep allows you to perform better.

[294] Consistently getting about the same amount of sleep is better for performance, at least on Okem, than just getting more.

[295] That's interesting.

[296] So that's referring to more that there should be a consistent habit versus the total amount.

[297] To me, like the entirety of the picture of sleep is similar to nutrition in that it feels like there's so many variables involved and it's so person -specific.

[298] So, you know, a lot of studies, I mean, this is the way of science, has to look in aggregate the effects on sleep.

[299] It doesn't focus on high performers, which are individuals, ultimately.

[300] Like, the question isn't, so it's a very important question is like what kind of diet fights obesity, reduces obesity.

[301] It's another question, what kind of diet allows David Goggins to be the best version of himself?

[302] So these high performers in different avenues.

[303] And the same thing with sleep, like people that tell me that I should get eight hours of sleep, it's like, it's, I mean, I get it and they may be right.

[304] but they may be very wrong.

[305] There's no evidence that eight is better than six, that you could very well do better on six than on eight.

[306] There are a few other things that turn out to be strong parameters for success in this domain.

[307] For instance, your entire life, waking or asleep, is broken up into these 90 -minute ultradian cycles.

[308] If you look at ability to attend or do math problems or do anything, drive, performance tends to ramp up slowly within a 90 -minute cycle peak and then, come down at the end of that 90 -minute cycle.

[309] And in sleep, we go through the stage 1, 2, 3, 4, REM, et cetera.

[310] We talk more about that if you like, those on 90 -minute ultradian cycles as well.

[311] Ending your sleep after a 90 -minute cycle, at the near the end of a 90 -minute cycle, say at the end of six hours, in many cases, is better for you than sleeping an additional hour, seven hours, and waking up in the middle of an ultradian cycle.

[312] And there are a few apps that can measure this based on body movements and things like that that have you, your alarm go off at the end of an ultradian cycle.

[313] And if you wake up in the middle of an ultradian cycle, sometimes not always you can be very groggy for a long period of time.

[314] I certainly do better on six hours than I do on seven.

[315] I happen to like an eight hour sleep.

[316] It feels great.

[317] But I haven't slept an entire eight hours without waking up in the middle of the night at some point in, I don't know, forever.

[318] I can't remember.

[319] It's probably some point in infancy but and I function well during the day I think that that's a big that's an important parameter is how do you feel during the day almost everybody experiences some sort of dip in energy in the late afternoon or what would correlate to their temperature peak and that's a good time of day to get either a 90 minute or less nap or if you're not a napper or you can't nap feet elevated has been shown to be good for clear out of some of this, the glymphatic system is this kind of like sewer system of the brain that you can clear stuff out.

[320] So legs elevated or one thing that I'm a big proponent of and that my lab has been studying is what I now call NSDR non -sleep deep rest.

[321] And this is just lying down.

[322] There are some scripts that we're going to put out there soon as a free resource.

[323] There's some hypnosis scripts that my colleague David Spiegel has put out there as a free resource.

[324] but non -sleep deep rest is allowing your system to drop into states of a real calm that allow you to get better at falling asleep later.

[325] And they can be very restorative for cognitive and motor function.

[326] There's at least one study out of Denmark that shows that the basal ganglia, which is an area of the brain that's involved in motor planning and action, one of these 20 -minute non -sleep deep rest protocols resets levels of neuromodulators like dopamine in the basal ganglia to the same levels that they were right out.

[327] after a long night's sleep.

[328] So I also respectfully or semi respectfully disagree with the idea that you can't recover lost sleep.

[329] What does that mean?

[330] I mean, there's no IRS for sleep.

[331] So what does it mean to be in debt for sleep?

[332] If you're falling asleep during the day and you're sleepy, like you're falling asleep, that's a good sign of insomnia.

[333] It means you're not sleeping enough at night.

[334] If you're fatigued during the day, but you're not falling asleep, so you're just exhausted, but you're not finding yourself falling asleep in meetings and in conversation, then chances are you're fatiguing your system through something else like a long run in the middle of the night in Boston or whatever it is that you're up to lately at 3 a .m. Yes.

[335] There is a magic to the nap and maybe you could speak to the, because you mentioned these protocols that don't necessarily, so they're non -sleep.

[336] But to me, the nap, one of the nap, one, or two a day, almost irrespective of how much sleep I get the night before, have a fundamental change in my mood and my performance.

[337] For the better, for the better, for the better.

[338] Yeah, likewise.

[339] So I do tend to kind of experiment with durations.

[340] It's consistently surprising to me how, like, a nap of like 10 minutes.

[341] I don't know, maybe you can speak to the perfect duration of a nap, but I find that it's like magic that a short nap does as much good and often better than a longer one for me for me subjective experience what would be a longer one longer than 90 minutes no no like 90 minutes or but longer than 90 minutes like two hours yeah that's dropping you starting to drop you into REM sleep and even if it's a tiny amount of REM sleep people can come out of those naps kind of disoriented right I mean remember in sleep space and time are are totally uncoupled and so that's an odd state to reenter the world in if you're not going to stay there for a while like for a good night's sleep.

[342] I think a 20 -minute nap is pretty fantastic.

[343] Would you say that's the option?

[344] If you were to recommend to the general, it's very weird to recommend anything to the general populace because obviously it's very person -specific, but what's a good one will you say to friends?

[345] Is 20 minutes?

[346] 20 or 30 minutes?

[347] Because you're going, unless you're sleep deprived, you're going to stay out of REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep.

[348] If you're sleep deprived, you'll drop right into it.

[349] If you've ever traveled and you're really jet lagged, you go to the hotel, you lay down for one second.

[350] All of a sudden, you're just like, you're in a psychedelic dream, which can be pretty great too.

[351] But I think that 20, 30 minutes, and if you can't sleep, some people have trouble napping, then learning to relax the body as much as possible, like trying to remove all expression from your face, completely letting your body kind of float.

[352] If people have a hard time relaxing when they're awake, there's some terrific clinically and research tested hypnosis protocols that we could provide links to that are cost -free and that teach you how to just completely release the alertness button and you just start drifting.

[353] Now, the problem is if you don't have an alarm or something to go off, you the other day i did one and i'm almost embarrassed to say this but there's a component of it where you actually are supposed to let your hand float up because it's a hypnosis script so they that's my colleague david spiegel in the script he says um let your hand float up i woke up an hour later my hand was still floating yeah and i was and i was completely relaxed so hypnosis is hypnosis is just a matter of going deep relaxation narrowing of context and it's all self -imposed a lot of people think that hypnosis is like the stage thing with the pendant and the chicken, you know, people fucking like chickens.

[354] But real hypnosis is self -hypnosis.

[355] You're learning to, it involves some shifts in the way that you, the hypnotic induction involves looking up, closing your eyes, slowly, deep breath, and then imagine yourself floating.

[356] And people vary on a scale of about one to four, for being the most easily hypnotized.

[357] There are a few people who it's very hard for them to allow themselves to go into these states.

[358] But for most people, They just, they're gone.

[359] And it's nice if you can have access to those states because when you come out of it, you feel amazing.

[360] You feel like you slept the whole night, at least most people report that.

[361] So refresh alert.

[362] Ready to go.

[363] I mean, basically, you're ready.

[364] Yeah, I know you have this interesting challenge coming up.

[365] And I'm curious what you're going to do to reset in the hours.

[366] The frequency of running is every four hours.

[367] It's not going to allow you to get any more than a couple hours sleep in between.

[368] A couple hours.

[369] So we should tell to people, I'd be curious to get your thoughts and advice on it.

[370] I'm March 5th running 48 miles with Mr. David Gagins.

[371] So four miles every four hours, and people should join us.

[372] He's, that madman is going to be live on Instagram, starting at 8 p .m. Pacific on March 5th.

[373] So...

[374] You're going to join him in person.

[375] In person.

[376] Undisclosed location.

[377] Undisclosed location.

[378] And I was trying to clarify like, okay, so...

[379] So we're going to, like, there'll be like friendly people around or something.

[380] No, it's just me and him.

[381] Friendly people.

[382] I don't know.

[383] Like, I just feel it's very difficult to be with David alone in the room.

[384] I imagine his, I mean, I've done some work with David.

[385] His energy is infectious.

[386] Yeah.

[387] That's an intense schedule.

[388] And the periodicity of those four hour, every four hours, four miles, means that there's no chance of catching an extended block.

[389] of sleep.

[390] So it's about three hours that you have non -exercising every time.

[391] And of course, it takes time to try to fall asleep, and there's an intensity of the whole thing.

[392] I mean, it's probably impossible to get anything more than two hours of sleep if you wanted to.

[393] So the optimal thing is probably, from the sound of it, I'd be curious to see what you think, but like it's getting a few 90 -minute naps.

[394] Well, I thought about this a bit.

[395] before we met up today.

[396] So I think there are two general approaches that could work.

[397] Neither one necessarily better than the other.

[398] One would be just to hammer through the whole thing, just to get your level of alertness and adrenaline ramped up so that you don't expect yourself to sleep.

[399] There are certain advantages there.

[400] One is a subjective kind of emotional advantage, which is if you can't sleep, you're not going to be stressed about that.

[401] And if you do fall asleep, it's a bonus provided you wake up and you don't look up and you realize David's been out running for half an hour and you're behind right but chances are that's not the way it'll go you set an alarm so that's one approach and and I grab that from you know I've a couple friends who were in the seal teams and they'll say that you know during buds there's this infamous hell week and there's this five hour five days excuse me definitely five days of no sleep although there is a component where they offer a nap at one particular point.

[402] And a lot of people will say that it's worse to go down for that nap and then be woken up 20 minutes later than to just stay up.

[403] So that's one option.

[404] Let's call it the full blitz hammer through option.

[405] And if you happen to fall asleep, you do.

[406] Bonus.

[407] The bonus.

[408] The other one would be to really anchor in these ultradian cycles.

[409] So coming back from a run, unless you're thoroughly exhausted, you're probably going to have a few minutes where you're going to want to stay awake.

[410] It's going to be hard to just immediately fall asleep and getting as much sleep as you can in the intervening periods, provided that you guys aren't posting constantly or doing something else.

[411] You also, there's a question of whether not you want to nourish, whether or not you want to eat or not in that time.

[412] Anytime we put food in our gut, I don't care if it's meat or oatmeal or broccoli or cross.

[413] cardboard, you're drawing blood into the gut, and so you are going to divert some energy towards digestion, and it's going to make you sleep.

[414] There's a reason why the rest and digest, the paracymothetic nervous system is called that.

[415] So you could decide that you were only going to sleep in between certain blocks.

[416] That would be another way to think about this.

[417] Because I did this last year, I ran very slow.

[418] Some of it was walking.

[419] I was listening to audiobooks.

[420] And one of the biggest mistakes I did is to overeat during that time.

[421] Right.

[422] It made the experience very unpleasant.

[423] So I have been considering basically eating almost nothing throughout the day.

[424] Being fasted will increase alertness because high levels of epinephrine in your system from fasting.

[425] You just think about fasting or being thirsty before you get exhausted.

[426] People always think if I don't eat, I'm going to be tired.

[427] No, the energy that you derive from food is going to be used from glycogen and after a long storage and conversion process.

[428] So the food that you eat is going to consume energy to digest.

[429] And so a lot of people feel better fasted.

[430] And presumably throughout history, people have fasted for long periods of time and had to stay up for two or three days.

[431] And God forbid, if a family member is sick, you can stay awake in the hospital without any trouble.

[432] So that alertness system, and it's all mental.

[433] Actually, and then there's a third.

[434] So you could try and sleep or take care in between.

[435] Yes.

[436] And then there's a third approach.

[437] Uh -oh.

[438] Yeah.

[439] But I didn't come up with it.

[440] What is it?

[441] But David did.

[442] So I actually texted him earlier because I had a feeling that I heard that you were going to do this challenge.

[443] So I asked David.

[444] Oh, God.

[445] So these are David Goggins' words, not mine.

[446] Okay.

[447] One.

[448] Being organized is super important.

[449] Two, you want to waste as little time as possible.

[450] three you need to eat sleep and rehab in as little time as possible so you can sleep as much as possible interesting by the way this is the first time i'm reading this so um four meal prep and gear prep et cetera are very important that's um that's consistent with everything i know about military they they don't they don't leave too much to chance five again these are david's words all that said he's fucked on most all that because he'll be interviewing me before or after I will also be interviewing him.

[451] Oh shit.

[452] Five, long story short, the only thing that might help is a very special pill.

[453] Ooh, this is interesting.

[454] They're called S -I -U pills.

[455] Hard to get, but I believe he can get them.

[456] S -I -U stands for suck it up.

[457] Tell him to grab his balls.

[458] He will find those pills there.

[459] That's number six.

[460] And then the last one, stay hard, brother.

[461] Stay hard, brother.

[462] Amen.

[463] That was one of the other things that I think makes this challenging is that it'll be doing a podcast throughout.

[464] So first of all, I'll do a long one before and after, but also I'll have to come up with things that talk to him about.

[465] So it's a different thing to do something privately and then publicly.

[466] I know it doesn't seem that way, but like one of the hardest, the hardest, the hardest, thing I had to do last time was to turn on the camera and talk to the camera.

[467] Because last time I did it, I recorded every single time I did a leg.

[468] I recorded something I'm grateful for.

[469] It's just kind of unrelated.

[470] I'm not a fan of talking about like how I'm feeling or how the run is going.

[471] I want to do something totally unrelated to the run with the run as the background, you know, sort of something I'm grateful for or just any kind of interesting discussion.

[472] Gratitude, I mean, I hate the word hack, like, oh, it's a dopamine hack or it's a serotonin.

[473] I don't like the word hack because, A, it's disrespectful to hackers who do a real thing.

[474] And B, a hack implies that it's some sort of trick that you're kind of gaming the system.

[475] You know, what works is mechanism, right?

[476] Biological mechanisms were designed to work and they were selected for to work under variable conditions.

[477] And as you know, and I know, and we have great appreciation for the fact that the nervous system was designed to be an adaptive machine so that you don't have to sleep eight hours every night.

[478] You can do this thing.

[479] And things like gratitude allow you to tap into chemical resources, and that's not a hack.

[480] The fact that being grateful for something external to the event happens to release serotonin and have a certain soothing effect or dopamine and give you more epinephrine and let you.

[481] you go further, that's not a hack.

[482] That's actually what allowed the human machine to evolve to the point that it is now.

[483] Every time, you know, an inventor eventually created something that worked and felt great about it, you can imagine that the first, you know, air flight felt pretty awesome and motivated those people to go on and do more.

[484] They didn't just go on, you know, yawn and go have a beer.

[485] So being able to access the genuine internal states of gratitude and reward works.

[486] You can't trick the system.

[487] You can't pretend that you're grateful for something.

[488] But if you can identify or attach yourself to some larger goal or something that's deeply gratifying to you or place it in service to a relative that passed away that you care a lot about, that's not a hack.

[489] That's accessing the deepest components of your nervous system.

[490] And to steal your kind of, you know, there's real beauty there, right?

[491] Yeah, but for an introvert like myself, and I think David, I don't know if he's an introvert, but he's not, despite the fact that he has written a great book and he communicates, he puts himself out there, he's not really a fan of communication.

[492] He's not, I don't know if he's energized by speaking his mind.

[493] I don't know well enough to know.

[494] I mean, we've done a little bit of work together and, you know, we're in communication now and again.

[495] He's obviously super impressive.

[496] I don't know.

[497] It seems like he's a pretty, it seems like he's a pretty private guy.

[498] Yeah.

[499] So I don't have access to that.

[500] So for me, I'll just speak to myself, and I think David is the same, but I'll speak to myself that it was a hugely draining thing, not to experience the gratitude, experiencing the gratitude, just like you're saying, is really energizing.

[501] And it's, it's a powerful thing.

[502] It's a, it can lift up your mood.

[503] But to turn on the camera, and have to use words, which is very difficult to do, to explain like what you're feeling and do it in the way that you know a bunch of people will be watching is really draining.

[504] And one of the things I'm concerned about that in this whole process, how do I keep my mind sharp while also keeping the physical performance sharp?

[505] And that's a little bit scary because talking to David, like, actual intellectually sharp, like thinking, being charismatic and as much as I can be, and, like, being still maintaining a sense of humor or two, because I become, with sleep deprivation, with exhaustion, you start being...

[506] The Russian bear comes out.

[507] You start being such a, like, I become a David Goggins, essentially.

[508] Oh, it makes you irritable.

[509] Sleep deprivation makes us irritable.

[510] Yeah.

[511] Yeah.

[512] It's clear so that in the early part of the night, we get a higher percentage of those ultradian cycles are occupied by slow wave sleep, sometimes just called non -REM sleep.

[513] And those early night sleep bouts are great for muscular repair and for certain forms of learning.

[514] But REM sleep, the rapid eye movement sleep, which it starts to accumulate and occupy more of those 90 -minute altradian cycles toward the late part of a sleep bout, so typically toward morning.

[515] but after you've been to sleep a while, that's when you do the emotional processing.

[516] That's when we recover the ability to feel refreshed and not irritated by things.

[517] And if you deprive people of REM sleep, they become selectively bad at uncoupling the emotion from things that happened in the previous days.

[518] So the little things start to seem like big things.

[519] I always know I'm REM sleep deprived when I'm irritable and when I look at like the word the, and it doesn't look like it's spelled right, and I'm kind of pissed off about it.

[520] Like something's off.

[521] And we actually are becoming slightly psychotic when we're REM sleep deprived.

[522] You're not going to get a lot of REM sleep in this thing, except as you fatigue more, if you do fall asleep, you're going to drop more and more into REM so that those 90 -minute cycles, you won't have to go through stage one, stage two, stage three, and then REM.

[523] You're just going to drop right into REM.

[524] So you can count on your system to compensate for you.

[525] but I think that just the knowledge that you tend to get irritable as the time goes on, just that third personing of yourself, that awareness, the observer, that can be very beneficial because there may be bouts during this event when you just should probably say nothing and maybe you just, I don't know, smile and record or not smile or do whatever it is because you're going to be conserving energy.

[526] If it feels like a grind, that's epinephrine being released.

[527] That's epinephrine that you could devote to the physical effort.

[528] But humor is an amazing anecdote for this because it resets that, it's that dopamine release that gives us that fresh perspective.

[529] And it's a, it's a real chemical thing.

[530] It's not a, it's not a hack, it's not a trick, it's not a visualization, it's biology in action.

[531] Well, but I think the act of interviewing of conversation in these processes, even if you don't want to do it.

[532] The right thing to do, even when you're feeling irritable, is to do the third person view and be able to express with words that you're feeling irritable.

[533] Like, express what you're going through.

[534] Use words, which I hate doing.

[535] I honestly, I think my ultimate thing would be just to never say a single word to David Gagas.

[536] It just go through hell.

[537] It doesn't matter what we do, but to do it quietly, to also express it.

[538] That's my ultimate hell.

[539] And I think that's definitely going to be, if I know David at all, he's going to try and find your buttons.

[540] Like he's going to, I mean, he, even though he knows he can complete this, and I believe that he trusts that you can complete it too, I believe you can, you will complete it.

[541] You know you will complete it.

[542] Right.

[543] There's no question about that.

[544] But he's not going to make it easier for you.

[545] He's going to make it harder.

[546] Well, I'm afraid.

[547] So I'm like, you know, it's very difficult for me. So 40, miles is not easy.

[548] I haven't not been training that much.

[549] I'm not ramping up, but it's not like going to kill me. We'll see what happens.

[550] Of course, for him, he might almost get bored because I think the 48 miles for him is easy.

[551] I think...

[552] I don't know that ever gets easy.

[553] I have a friend, Casey Cordial, who works with David.

[554] He does some physical rehab type stuff with him, and he took Casey on a 50 -mileer and he said it's like 16 miles into it he was just like he hit his wall yeah but they he found it they they find it to get you know you find that portal there is one thing I want to mention there's some very good physiology that can perhaps support the actual running effort part these are very new data and we have a study going on with david spiegel at Stanford looking at how different patterns of breathing can affect heart rate variability heart rate variability is good There's this interesting mechanism that I think most people might not realize, but that medical students learn that your breathing and your heart rate and your brain are in this really remarkable interplay.

[555] It goes like this.

[556] When you inhale, this isn't breathwork.

[557] We're not going to do breathwork.

[558] But when you inhale, the diaphragm moves down.

[559] The heart gets a little bigger because there's a little more space in the thoracic cavity.

[560] And as a consequence, blood flows a little bit more slowly through that larger volume.

[561] And there's a category of neurons, a sin of atrial.

[562] node that sees that, that recognizes that slower rate through that larger volume, sends a signal to the brainstem and the brain stem sends a signal back to the heart to speed the heart up.

[563] So every time you inhale, you're in speeding the heart up.

[564] When you exhale, the diaphragm moves up.

[565] The heart gets a little smaller.

[566] The volume is smaller.

[567] Blood flows more quickly through the heart, a signal sent up to the brain and the brain sends a signal back to slow the heart down.

[568] This is the basis of heart rate variability.

[569] So at any point, if you feel like your heart is racing, and you feel like you're working too hard per unit of effort, focus on making your exhales longer or more intense than your inhales.

[570] If ever you feel like you're truly flagging, you do not have the energy to get up.

[571] It's like, okay, it's time to go and you're exhausted.

[572] You want to draw more oxygen into the system, get your heart rate going faster.

[573] Now, some people when they hear this, probably thinking, well, this is really obvious.

[574] But there's so much out there about breath work and how to breathe and all this stuff.

[575] But no one talks about how to do it in real time while you're exerting effort.

[576] So this is something like almost like second by second you can adjust things that just in real time based on how you're feeling, by based on the heart rate.

[577] That's right.

[578] The experience of the heart rate.

[579] That's right.

[580] So one thing that could be very efficient and we're doing some work with athletes now, so these are unpublished data.

[581] But if you, while you're running, if you want to get into a nice cadence of heart rate variability, do double inhales.

[582] while you're running what this will do is that when you do the double inhale has the effect of reopening the avioli of the lungs your lungs are filled with tons of little sacks when you they tend to collapse as you fatigue when you and carbon dioxide builds up in the bloodstream and that's when we start getting stress if you've ever been sprinting you start getting beat and you're going as hard as you can what what you really need to do is double inhale and reinflate these sacks in the lungs and then offload a lot of carbon dioxide so when you're at a steady cadence and you're feeling good, double inhale, exhale.

[583] Double inhale, exhale is a terrific way to breathe while you're in ongoing effort.

[584] By the way, any recommendations or differences in nose or mouth breathing?

[585] So nasal breathing, there's a lot of excitement now, obviously, about nasal breathing because of James Nestor's book, Breath.

[586] There was also, if people are going to know about that book, I do feel like out of respect for my colleagues, There was a book by Sandra Kahn and Paul Ehrlich at Stanford, both professors at Stanford, with a forward by Jared Diamond and Robert Sapolsky.

[587] So some heavy hitters in this book.

[588] And the book is called Jaws, a hidden epidemic.

[589] And it's all about how nasal breathing is better for us, especially kids, than being mouth breathers under most conditions for sake of improving immunity.

[590] It turns out there's a microbiome in the nose, like all sorts of good stuff about nasal breathing preferentially.

[591] but when we exercise you can you can do pure nasal breathing but the problem is once you get up to kind of third and fourth and fifth gear effort you can't nasal breathing be at maximum capacity unless you've been training it for a very long time so i would say double inhale through the nose offload through the mouth so double inhale exhale while you're in steady effort and then if you really feel like you need to gas it and you're pushing the data show that then just use whatever's there right just go into kind of default mode because bringing too much concentration to something is also going to spend epinephrine the goal is to get into that i don't like the word but the flow state where you're not thinking too much you're just in exertion so these are so these are things that can help in the transitions um but i don't think there's any secret breathing technique you know anyone who's been in the seal teams will kind of you know they'll tell you like there's no breathing technique right there's a And these double inhale exhales can be great for setting heart rate ability very quickly and getting into a steady cadence while you're exercising.

[592] But if there's a sprint, like if suddenly you guys are sprinting, ditch the double inhale exhale and just sprint.

[593] One thing you mentioned, he's probably going to push my buttons.

[594] It's a good place to ask a question about anger.

[595] So I'll probably get pissed off at him at some point, I'm guessing.

[596] And do you have thoughts from a scientific perspective?

[597] or also just the personal philosophical perspective about the role of anger and all of this in managing alertness, performance.

[598] I think about this a lot because there's so much out there about how important it is to do things from a place of love.

[599] I tweet about it all the time.

[600] And love is powerful, right?

[601] It is interesting that autonomic arousal, alertness, let's just use simple language, alertness physiologically looks identical for love and excitement as it does for anger and frustration and wanting to defeat your opponent or whoever that opponent happens to be.

[602] They're identical, except that the love component does tend to be associated with the release of neurochemicals of the serotonin and dopamine type that do have this replenishment component.

[603] I don't think one wants to be in constant anger and friction, but I mean, I'll come clean a bit.

[604] portions of my career where some of my best work, my extra two hours, my ability to nail a really hard deadline or problem has come from not wanting to get out competed or from wanting to prove something.

[605] These days, I don't, I'm not oriented from that place toward my work quite as often.

[606] But I think we should be really honest.

[607] Anger is powerful.

[608] It provided it's channeled.

[609] It's very, very powerful.

[610] And it can give you a ton of fuel and gas to push when otherwise you'd tap.

[611] Yeah, Joe Rogan has, aside from being a fan of his, has been an inspiration to sort of be, to have a kind of loving view on the world in the way you approach the world to me. So I've tended to want to approach the world that way.

[612] But in the same way, David Goggins has been an inspiration to like, yeah, be angry at stuff and use it as fuel.

[613] He almost conjures up artificial demons in his mind just so he can fight them.

[614] But at the same time, I tried that because I did a challenge in the summer of, well, for 30 days, I was doing a lot of push -ups.

[615] And it was over time, it was counterproductive for me. I found that it was easier to just, like, the role of the role of the, you know, coaster that the emotional, like being angry at stuff takes you, can also be exhausting.

[616] Oh, absolutely.

[617] And it can take you down, like the ups of it are good, but the downs are bad.

[618] And what I found is better to get, to use it as a boost every once in a while, but mostly to get lost in the, you're talking about the breathwork, like getting lost in the ritual of it, like the beat like that, as opposed to going on the big roller coasters of emotion.

[619] Yeah, this brings us into the realm of neuroendocrinology is there's a fascinating relationship between the hormone system and the nervous system.

[620] And, you know, hormones work in general on slower timescales.

[621] The definition of a hormone is a chemical released at one location in the body, goes in acts at multiple locations far away within the body.

[622] Pharmon would be between two bodies.

[623] Neurochemicals like dopamine and serotonin tend to work a little more quickly.

[624] There are hormones like adrenaline and cortisol that can work very fast.

[625] But here I'm referring mainly to testosterone prolactin prolactin tends to be in men and women tends to make people kind of lazy and want to take care of young it tends to throw down body fat so we can stay up late it's secreted in response to having children these are all in humans and in animals there's a very interesting relationship between testosterone and dopamine that speaks directly to what we're talking about now.

[626] So dopamine and testosterone are closely related in the pituitary system.

[627] And obviously testosterone comes from the adrenals and from the testes.

[628] But the major effect of testosterone is to make effort feel good.

[629] That's what testosterone does.

[630] It has other effects too, right?

[631] Reproductive effects, androgenizing parts of the body, etc. But it makes effort feel good.

[632] The testosterone molecule is synthesized from cholesterol.

[633] Cholesterol can either be made into cortisol, a stress hormone, or testosterone, but not both.

[634] So you have a limited amount of cholesterol and it gets diverted towards stress or this pathway where effort feels good.

[635] That's the pathway you want to get into.

[636] The anger pathway, if we were to just kind of play a mind experiment here, the anger.

[637] The anger, eventually is going to divert more of that cholesterol molecule to cortisol and stress, and you will be slowly depleting testosterone.

[638] Now, going into this, you'll have plenty of testosterone, but after a couple days, there have been very interesting studies showing that testosterone doesn't necessarily drop with sleep deprivation.

[639] That's a bit of a myth.

[640] You need it to replenish testosterone.

[641] You need sleep to replenish testosterone eventually.

[642] But the real question is, are you enjoying what you're doing?

[643] And here that the work was, some of the major, work on this was done by Duncan French, who runs the UFC Training Center.

[644] He did his PhD at Yukon stores, did a really beautiful PhD thesis, looking at the relationship between stress hormones, testosterone, and dopamine.

[645] Really interesting work.

[646] And the takeaway from all of this is if you can just convince yourself, or ideally if you can just enjoy yourself, you are going to maintain or maybe even increase testosterone stores, which will make effort feel good.

[647] And to me, aside from neuroplasticity where everything becomes automatic after this experience, to me, that's the Holy Grail.

[648] When effort feels good, life just gets way better.

[649] And we're not talking about achieving the reward.

[650] I'm not talking about the end of this thing.

[651] I'm talking about the process of it feeling really good.

[652] Yeah, there is a magic to, I don't know if you can comment on this, but I find myself being able to, if I just say I'm feeling good, like this old hack of like smiling while you're running.

[653] If I just tell myself, I'm feeling really good right now.

[654] No matter how I'm actually feeling, I'll start feeling way better.

[655] And the whole thing, there's the cascading effect that allows me to maximize the effort.

[656] It's quite fascinating.

[657] It's weird.

[658] Hormones are powerful.

[659] The relationship between thoughts and hormones and these physiological things is enormous.

[660] I had a colleague that a few years ago, he was dying.

[661] pancreatic cancer.

[662] And I was interviewing him just because he's an important figure in our community and I was a friend.

[663] And there was one day where he told me, he said, you know, I don't want to make it past the new year.

[664] I just, and it was crushing for me to hear.

[665] And I knew that he had been on some androgen therapy for a whole set of other things.

[666] And I said, you know, have you taken your androgen cream?

[667] And he was like, no, I haven't done it.

[668] Go get it for me. I have this on film, he takes it, he puts the andro cream on.

[669] I'm not suggesting people take androgens, by the way.

[670] Ten minutes later, he says, you know what, I think I want to live into the new year, and I'm going to write 12 letters of recommendation.

[671] He went to MIT, by the way.

[672] He said, I'm going to write 12 letters of recommendation.

[673] And he did.

[674] And so there's something about these molecules that in an ancient way, in all organisms, all mammals, as far as we know, are linked to the will to live.

[675] They're linked to effort and making effort feel good, which is been fundamental to the evolution of our species.

[676] I always say people think that the opposite of testosterone is estrogen, but it's not.

[677] The opposite of testosterone is prolactin, which makes us feel quiescent and not in pursuit of things, et cetera.

[678] Testosterone makes effort feel good.

[679] Estrogen makes emotions feel okay.

[680] And they are in mixed amounts in people, as I say, have all chromosomal backgrounds.

[681] Yeah.

[682] Yeah.

[683] I mean, you also mentioned fasting potentially through this two -day thing.

[684] It'd be cool to get your thoughts about fasting in general.

[685] Do you think on a personal level and at a higher sort of level of studies that you're aware of and physiology and so on, what do you think about intermittent fasting of like not eating for 16 hours and then having an eight -hour window or something I've been doing a lot recently, which is, eating only once a day, so that's 24 -hour fast, I guess, one meal a day, or something I've been thinking about doing, haven't done yet, or doing like 72 hours, or some people do like five -day fasts in general.

[686] So this would be, for this particular run, would be a 48 -hour fast if I don't eat at all.

[687] What do you think about that for performance, for mood, for all those kinds of things?

[688] I can speak a little bit to the science and a little bit of my own experience and then some anecdotes of people that have done very hard, very long duration things and what they've told me. So I just want to make sure I'm separating those out so people know my sourcing.

[689] I think now none of this is about the actual long -term nutritional benefits of one thing or the other.

[690] But if you look at the science on intermittent fasting, it's pretty remarkable.

[691] Before I was at Stanford, my lab was in San Diego.

[692] One of my colleagues was Sachin Panda at the Salk is phenomenal biologist and researcher.

[693] Wrote a book called the Circadian Code.

[694] it's very, very good and kind of popularized intermittent fasting, although there were others that had talked about this before Ori Hoffmeckler talked about the warrior diet.

[695] People probably might not know who Orii is, but he's sort of the originator of this business of intermittent fasting, eating once a day or limited.

[696] Anyway, Sachin has published papers, peer -reviewed papers in very good journals like Cell and elsewhere showing that limiting the consumption of calories to eight, you know, four, six, or eight, or even 10 hours of every 24 -hour cycle, and keeping that more or less correlated with the light, with when the sun is out, leads to less liver disease, improved metabolic markers, less body fat, et cetera.

[697] In the mouse studies, they even gave the mice the choice to eat whatever they wanted as much as they want as long as they restricted it to a certain period within the 24 -hour cycle.

[698] They did great.

[699] They maintained a healthy weight or even lost weight.

[700] when they took the same amount of food and they stretched it out across the entire 24 -hour cycle, so this is eating every hour or two hours, the animals got fat and sick.

[701] So it's pretty remarkable data.

[702] How much of that translates to humans isn't clear, but one thing that's really clear with humans is adherence, right?

[703] We could talk a lot about nutrition and some of the problems with the studies on nutrition is that what people will do in a laboratory is often hard to do in the real world.

[704] Low carbohydrate diets, just they tend, because they tend to focus on foods that, that have high amino acid content like meats, generally people are less hungry on those than they are on calorie matched diets of fruits and vegetables and carbohydrates because when the insulin goes up, you get hungry and you wanna eat more.

[705] So this is not a push for carnivore or a push against one thing or the other, it's just there are a lot of factors.

[706] But we know for sure that when you're fasted or when you have low amounts of carbohydrate in your system, complex carbohydrate, your alertness is going to go up.

[707] Fast increases, increases alertness and epinephrine for the sole purpose of getting you to go out and find food.

[708] Can you imagine if our ancestors got hungry and they were like, oh, I'm too tired to go find food?

[709] We wouldn't be here.

[710] It'd be like robots or someone, one of your alien buddies will be like running Atlanta.

[711] So I think that if you want to be alert, fasting or keeping complex carbohydrates to a minimum is very valuable.

[712] If you want to sleep and you want to be sleepy, ingesting foods that have a lot of tryptophan, which is the precursor to serotonin, so complex carbohydrates like rice and grains, turkey, white meats, those things do create a sense of sleepiness.

[713] However, there is a caveat.

[714] And this is one problem with the once a meal, once a day meal, is that anytime you have a lot of food in the gut, you're increasing sleepiness because you're diverting blood to the gut.

[715] It's going to trigger the vagus to signal to the brain to shut down your system and utilize those nutrients, you know, digest and utilize those nutrients.

[716] So I've done the once a day eating thing.

[717] The problem is I eat so much in that meal that I'm exhausted.

[718] And so it doesn't always lend itself well to the schedule.

[719] But so in a six or eight hour eating block for me is a little bit better.

[720] I do eat carbohydrates.

[721] I'm probably one of the few people left on the West Coast that actually consumes carbohydrates and we'll say that out loud.

[722] I don't know people eat carbs anymore.

[723] That's weird.

[724] They don't.

[725] Where do you even find carbons.

[726] I like oatmeal.

[727] I like rice.

[728] The other time is if people are doing very high intensity weight train, they need to replenish glycogen.

[729] On the alertness side, I do feel like it's probably person -dependent.

[730] For me, alertness, being alert makes my life better in a lot of ways more than just the alertness itself.

[731] Like, for example, one of the things I discovered with fasting is that when I was training twice a day in jiu -jitsu, for example, and competing and so on, I performed way better at things that you traditionally would say you need carbs for, which is explosive movements and all that.

[732] I don't know if I actually perform better in terms of like the force of the explosion, the explosiveness.

[733] What I do know is the alertness resulted in me doing the technique more precisely.

[734] That's the dopamine and epinephrine system in action.

[735] And there's a, you know, and there are some other just purely physical aspects to one diet versus the other that can be complicated.

[736] If you're ingesting carbohydrates, complex carbohydrates, you're going to replenish glycogen, which is great.

[737] But they also tend to be bulky and fibrous.

[738] And I've never rolled jiu -jitsu, but running when you have a lot of bulky fibrous food in your gut or in your intestine, it can be a barrier.

[739] It can be uncomfortable.

[740] And so some people do really well on low carbohydrate meat -rich diet.

[741] diets because they're just not as bloated.

[742] They're not carrying as much water and other stuff.

[743] Carbohydrate carries a lot of water molecules with it.

[744] So there are aspects to being able to train and being really explosive because you feel light.

[745] One anecdote that really, again, I'm not encouraging any one particular kind of diet, but I have a friend who is in the seal teams.

[746] I happen to know a number of people in that community.

[747] And he told me that he did this very long fast.

[748] It was a fast that I think you get to eat a little bit of soup or broth.

[749] And there's like a bar or something, but it's like a nine day thing.

[750] And he's a very strong athlete.

[751] And he said that on day six or seven, he was running up some hills or something while he was on deployment.

[752] And he felt amazing.

[753] He had kind of hit this other level.

[754] He was somebody who had boxed in the Naval Academy.

[755] He was somebody who had, he knew, knows and knew high output.

[756] And he felt like he discovered the 13th floor, that there was another floor to this performance.

[757] space that he hadn't experienced except while he had fasted.

[758] And he said that that was a remarkable clarity of mind, energy.

[759] It's a little bit of what you describe.

[760] He described a kind of suppleness and explosiveness.

[761] So there's probably something there.

[762] On which day?

[763] At once he was in the fifth or sixth day of the fast.

[764] See, this is the thing is I've never been there on the second, third, fourth, fifth day, that kind of thing.

[765] But when I just don't eat for 20 hours, many times, through my training, the clarity.

[766] It's like you feel like everyone is moving super slowly and you're able to like dominate people you weren't able to before.

[767] It's like, well, you might have slipped into, or switched over rather into full ketosis.

[768] And ketogenic diets done properly can be great for people.

[769] The problem is if you do it wrong, you can really mess it.

[770] I tried it once and I basically got psoriasis.

[771] I thought my scalp was going to fall off.

[772] I was like sloughing off all this.

[773] And then I stopped and I was taking the liquid ketones and then all of a sudden I felt better again.

[774] But I was told that I just did it wrong.

[775] Yes.

[776] So I think there's a right way and a wrong way and you have to get it right.

[777] Definitely.

[778] And so I've experimented quite a bit with keto to see how my body feels and doing it the right way and following all the instructions.

[779] There's definitely a huge difference that like for example, one of the things I discovered, everyone know who said this, but I tried this recently over the past year as I started drinking when I don't feel great if I'm fasting bone broth, chicken bone broth.

[780] And for some reason, like magically, it could be, this is the other thing, the mind, I don't know, but it makes me feel really good.

[781] Well, it could be the salt.

[782] So, I mean, neurons, the action potential of neurons, as you know, is sodium's rushing into the cell.

[783] You need enough extra cellar sodium.

[784] in order for your brain and nervous system to function.

[785] And so salt, I mean, unless people have hypertension, salt is great.

[786] There was an article in Science Magazine about a decade ago about how salt had been demonized, and unless people have hypertension, provide you drink enough water, salt is great.

[787] You need sodium, magnesium, and potassium to function and for your nerve cells to work.

[788] I mean, people who overdrink water and don't consume enough electrolyte, die.

[789] Now, hydration is really important.

[790] I know David's really into hydration.

[791] He's mentioned that a few times.

[792] I mean, hydrating properly is key.

[793] And so you definitely want to make sure that you're drinking enough water and getting enough electrolytes.

[794] That, I mean, we should have actually talked about that at the beginning because that's going to keep your nervous system functioning well.

[795] And a lot of people, they'll get shaky or jittery and when they're fasting and they'll think they need sugar.

[796] And if they just put some salt in some water, they feel fine.

[797] And like the other stuff from potassium, magnesium, whatever the other electrolytes are.

[798] But yeah, those three.

[799] So, I mean, salt, yeah.

[800] Yeah, magnesium is good before sleep, salt.

[801] I mean, this is a vast space, and we're kind of talking about the overlap between neurochemicals, hormones, and nutrition.

[802] And it's a fascinating space, and it's one that the academic community has gems within the textbooks.

[803] It hasn't really made it into the public sphere yet.

[804] And I think that's because people get so caught up in the, you know, being, are you vegan or are you carnivore?

[805] And there's a vast space in between, too, that people can explore.

[806] Like, I'm not a competitive athlete, so I eat meat and I also eat vegetables and I eat fruits and it's just about timing them.

[807] But I tend to eat carbohydrates when I want to be sleepy.

[808] I eat them at night.

[809] And everyone said that's the worst thing.

[810] You can't do that.

[811] You sleep great after eating a big bowl of pasta, I'll tell you.

[812] And by the way, I should give you a big thank you for connecting me with Bell Campo Farms.

[813] They send me some meat, I think, because of you.

[814] And it's delicious.

[815] So I really, I really appreciate that.

[816] I mean, it also connected me with this whole world of people who are doing farming in this ethical way and really love the whole process.

[817] And like, from both like a human level, but also scientific level.

[818] And the result is, it's like ethical, but also it's delicious.

[819] And it makes you think about your diet in a whole new kind of way.

[820] Yeah, I've known, I don't have any commercial relationship.

[821] relationship to Bel Campo, so I can be very clear.

[822] I've known Anya Fernald, who's one of the founder and CEO of Bel Campo.

[823] I've known her since the ninth grade.

[824] It is true that her parents are faculty members at Stanford, their colleagues of mine.

[825] But she's just a serious academic of nutrition, but also of sustainable agriculture, of, you know, all sorts of things.

[826] And also the meat, just, it's awesome.

[827] It tastes really good.

[828] And no, I'm not getting paid to say that.

[829] And no, they're not sponsoring my podcast.

[830] It's just if you, I feel like if you're going to eat animals, if that's in your framework and you're going to eat animals, knowing that the animals were raised as happy as could be until, you know, time of slaughter is at least important to me. And actually, talk to her.

[831] So I will talk to her on this podcast, actually.

[832] And she invited me like a week ago out to visit the farm in May or June or whatever.

[833] Yeah, they have a farm up at the Oregon border.

[834] I haven't been there yet, but I've seen the pictures.

[835] It looks awesome.

[836] And I was like, yes.

[837] It looks beautiful.

[838] Let me know when you're going.

[839] and yeah let's go together you'll probably run there but i'll drive there yeah but that all that said i do want to because i a lot of people who are vegan write to me and i do want to seriously in the same seriousness that i approached keto i do want to go like on a few months to switch to a vegan diet at some point to really try it yeah i haven't done it yet because i'm afraid i'm in a function better I'm Argentine by my dad's side and I I don't eat I don't eat meat super often but well for most people it would seem often but but I do love steak I do so I'm afraid I'm going to feel better there's a social element to steak you're right because coming from a Russian background like I can't imagine going to visit my folks like my parents for Thanksgiving or something to say mom and dad I'm uh you know I don't eat meat so is it a you know I don't eat meat so is it Yeah.

[840] Well, I think if you're going to eat meat, getting it from sources that are compatible with, you know, continuation of the planet is good.

[841] I mean, there are some real problems with the factory farm meat.

[842] You know, you drive up and down the five and you pass that point where are there all those cows.

[843] I mean, as somebody who loves animals, it's, it's clear that it's, you know, you want to limit the amount of suffering of those animals.

[844] Whenever I hear about, you know, we have, we know people that hunt and that go and get their own meat.

[845] I really admire that.

[846] I admire that people do that.

[847] We don't, we don't tend to do that in the hills around Stanford.

[848] They're mountain lines back there, but that's about it.

[849] And I'm certainly, I admire the vegan mindset of just making that decision.

[850] You're just not going to consume other beings, but, you know, I haven't gone that way.

[851] But performance -wise, I'm just curious, because I was surprised.

[852] I was certain that eating five, six, seven meals a day is the right thing to do if you want to perform your best when I was like 20 or whatever.

[853] And I would eat oatmeal.

[854] Like I thought it's obvious.

[855] I have to have a really a lot of carbs in the breakfast.

[856] I had a lot of preconceived notions.

[857] And then when I started eating like once a day, this was at the peak of my competing in jihitsu, it was like everything I know about nutrition is wrong.

[858] You realize that like you have to become a scientist.

[859] First, of all you have to read literature you have to learn you experiment but you also have to become a scientist of your own body and in the same way I have a lot of preconceived notions of what performance is like under vegan diet and I want to do it right like seriously not not necessarily for the ethical reasons but to see if it's performance -wise like can I I remember there's like a fruitarian diet where you eat fruit only you know these extremes are like they're pretty they're interesting because people have this need.

[860] The extremes are informative, though, right?

[861] I mean, well -controlled experiments, you eliminate as many variables as you can, except the one you're interested in.

[862] So people are running these experiments.

[863] I think that it's hard to imagine getting...

[864] I know people say you can get enough amino acids from plant -based sources, and I believe that.

[865] I think it probably takes a little more work.

[866] One thing that's really clear is that the benefit of these omega -3 -Omega -6 radius.

[867] shields like fish oils and things like that.

[868] There are some data that show that the getting at least a thousand milligrams of the EPA, which is in high in fish oils, but other things too, even some meats and other plants.

[869] It in double, you know, in matched placebo, double -blind controlled studies, placebo -controlled double -blind studies have shown that those can offset antidepressive symptoms as much as some of the selective serotonin re -uptake inhibitors like Prozac and Zoloff.

[870] So, That's pretty impressive.

[871] And in Scandinavia, people know, especially in winter, to consume a lot of those omega -3s because they're good for you.

[872] They're good for the brain.

[873] That's the other question.

[874] Nutrition -wise, what kind of stuff have you come across that's useful?

[875] Like, I basically only take fish oil, like you said, electrolytes.

[876] Electrolites with water, the David Goggins diet.

[877] Fish oil.

[878] Plus fish oil.

[879] And then, again, the sponsor, they made it so easier.

[880] The sponsor of your podcast and mine, Athletic Greens .com slash Huberman.

[881] Great stuff.

[882] Support it.

[883] I don't know.

[884] Like, it's great stuff for sure.

[885] But also just takes away the headache of like, I don't have to think about.

[886] Yeah, you're going to get a bunch of vitamins and minerals.

[887] It does that.

[888] It sounds like a plug, but I have genuinely been buying it.

[889] You know, no discount, no affiliation or anything since 2012.

[890] I think I heard about it on the Tim.

[891] Ferris podcast.

[892] I was like, oh, I'm going to try that stuff.

[893] And I liked it.

[894] I mean, when I was starting my lab, I was working insane hours.

[895] I still work very long hours.

[896] And getting sick limits productivity.

[897] And I also wanted to train.

[898] And I wasn't doing much training back then.

[899] Now I try and get, you know, three, four sessions in a week.

[900] I'm not doing nothing like what you and David are doing or what, you know, Joe does or like you guys are way more regimented and consistent than I am.

[901] But I think that being healthy and and feeling good is one of the great benefits to a career is having energy and just being not sick.

[902] Can we take a step back to sleep for a little bit?

[903] So people should definitely look through your podcast.

[904] The first five episodes were on sleep.

[905] Or, no, I guess the first opening episode wasn't.

[906] First one was sort of how the brain works generally, is to give people some background.

[907] And then we did four episodes on, sleep, including some stuff about food temperature exercise, jet lag, shift work for the jet lag folks and shift work.

[908] Yeah, take a master class on sleep.

[909] And then you're going on to a next topic in the next few episodes, which is incredible.

[910] Well, neuroplasticity, we'll talk about it.

[911] But on sleep, one of the cool things about the human mind when it sleeps is dreaming.

[912] What do you think we understand about the contents of dreams?

[913] Like, what do dreams mean, all the stuff we see when we dream?

[914] Is there something that we understand about the contents of dreams?

[915] Some of it is very concrete.

[916] So Matt Wilson, who at MIT, it showed in rodents, and it's been shown in non -human primates, and now it's been shown in humans, that there is replay of spatial information during sleep.

[917] So initially what Matt showed was that as these little rodents navigate through a maze, they're these cells in the hippocampus called place cells that fire when the animal encounters a turn or a corridor and that same exact same sequence is replayed during sleep.

[918] And it turns out this is true in London taxi cab drivers.

[919] Before phones and GPS were what they are today, the London taxi cab drivers were famous for knowing the routes through the city through these mental maps.

[920] and their analysis of their place cell firing during sleep and during wakefulness.

[921] And so we are essentially taking spatial information about the location of things and replaying it during sleep.

[922] However, it's not replayed so that you remember it all.

[923] It's replayed so that if there's a reason to remember it, the links to the emotional system, to the components of the limbic system and hypothalamus that are relevant, like you got into a car crash or a particular location, or you lost a bunch of money because you were a cab driver, Uber driver, we'd say nowadays, and you were stuck at one particular avenue all day and frustrated and you were getting yelled at by your spouse, that information gets encoded so that you never forget that at that particular time of day and that particular time of year and this thing happened.

[924] So context starts getting linked to experience.

[925] So there's spatial information that's absolutely replayed during sleep.

[926] And we experience this sometimes as dreams.

[927] The dreams that happen early in the night, when slow wave sleep or non -REM sleep dominates.

[928] Tends to be sleep of very kind of general themes and kind of location.

[929] It can feel a little bit eerie and kind of strange.

[930] Not so incidentally, the early phase of the night is when growth hormone is released.

[931] In the 80s and 90s, there was a drug that was very popular.

[932] It's very illegal now called GHB.

[933] You could actually buy it at GNC or a store then.

[934] I never took it, but it was a popular party drug and some people, Some famous celebrities died while on GHB.

[935] They were also on a bunch of other things, so it's not clear what killed them.

[936] But GHB was very big in certain communities because it promoted a massive release of growth hormone and gave people these very hypnotic states.

[937] So people go to clubs and they were in these very hypnotic states.

[938] It was part of a whole culture.

[939] That's early night.

[940] And those dreams tend to not have a lot of emotional content or load.

[941] That phase of dreaming is a lot of.

[942] associated with the occasional jolting yourself out of sleep because it's somewhat lighter sleep.

[943] The dreams that occur during REM, during rapid eye movement sleep and that dominate towards morning are very different.

[944] They tend to have very little epinephrine is available in the brain at that time.

[945] Epinephrine, again, being this molecule, stress, fear, and excitement.

[946] You are paralyzed during these REM dreams.

[947] You cannot move.

[948] There's intense emotion at the level of what you're feeling and their so -called theory of mind.

[949] Theory of mind is an idea that was put forward by Simon Baron Cohen, Sasha Baron Cohen's cousin.

[950] I think on the podcast I mistakenly said that he was at Oxford.

[951] It's like the Cardinal Sin.

[952] He's at Cambridge.

[953] Forgive me. I'm not British.

[954] So the dreams in REM are heavily emotionally laden.

[955] And it's very clear that those dreams and REM sleep, if you deprive yourself of them for too long, you become irritable and you start linking generally, negative emotions to almost everything.

[956] The dreams that occur in REM sleep are when we divorce emotion from our prior experiences.

[957] And it's when we extract general rules and themes.

[958] MIT seems to come up a lot today, but it's highly relevant.

[959] Sasumutonagawa, no more prize for immunoglobulin, but obviously fantastic neuroscientists as well, has shown that the replay of neurons in the hippocampus and elsewhere in the brain is kind of an approximation of the previous episode and a lot of fear unlearning of uncoupling emotion from hard or traumatic events that happened previously occurs in REM sleep.

[960] So you don't want to deprive yourself of REM sleep for too long.

[961] And those dreams tend to be very intense.

[962] Now, epinephrine is low so that you can't suddenly act out your dreams.

[963] But what's interesting is sometimes people will wake up suddenly while in a REM dream and their heart will be really, really, fast.

[964] That's a surge of epinephrine that occurs as you exit REM sleep.

[965] So you were having this intense emotional experience without the fear.

[966] You were essentially going through therapy in your sleep, self -induced therapy.

[967] It's like trauma therapy where you try and divorce the emotion from the experience.

[968] And then you wake up.

[969] And some people also have the other component of REM, which is atonia, which is paralysis.

[970] Pot smokers experienced this a lot more than non -pot smokers.

[971] there's an invasion of paralysis into the waking state.

[972] I'm not a pot smoker, but I have experienced this.

[973] And when you wake up and you're paralyzed for a second, it's terrifying.

[974] But then you jolt yourself alert.

[975] So the REM sleep is important for kind of the self -induced therapy and forgetting the bad stuff.

[976] It's good for uncoupling the emotions from bad experiences.

[977] And just there are two therapies, eye movement desensization reprocessing, which is a eye movement thing that shuts down the amygdala during therapy, not during sleep, and ketamine, which is a dissociative analgesic.

[978] It's actually very similar to PCP.

[979] And ketamine is now being used as a trauma therapy when someone comes into the ER, for instance, and they were in a terrible car accident.

[980] I mean, these are horrible things to describe, but, you know, they saw a relative impaled on the driving, steering column or something.

[981] And they will give this drug to try and shut off the emotion system so that, because they're not going to forget, let's be honest.

[982] You don't forget the bad stuff but it is possible to uncouple the bad events from the emotional system and there's all sorts of ethical issues about whether or not that's good or bad to do but PTSD is a failure to uncouple the emotion from these intense experiences so the goal of this kind of therapy is in the uncoupling for that to be permanent yeah to to to separate so they can recount the event and they can describe it without it triggering the same somatic experience of terror and dread um because terror, those feelings can be debilitating, obviously.

[983] And you're saying physiologically in REM sleep, a similar process is happening.

[984] That's right.

[985] The thematically, REM sleep is about experiencing or replaying intense emotions without experience the somatic, the physical component of the emotion, either the acting out or the accelerated heart rate and agitation.

[986] Likewise with things like ketamine therapies, that's the idea, is you're uncoupling the physical sensation from the mental events.

[987] What is REM sleep and why is it so special?

[988] Maybe we can comment on that, rapid eye movement sleep.

[989] Yeah, discovered in the 50s at the University of Chicago, it's intense brain activity, high levels of metabolic activity, dreams in which people report a lot of the theory of mind.

[990] We were talking about Simon Baron Cohen.

[991] Theory of mind was actually something that he developed for the diagnosis of autism.

[992] If you take kids, most kids of age 5, 6, 7, put them in front of a TV screen in the laboratory and you have them watch a video where a kid is playing with a ball or a doll.

[993] And then the kid puts it into a drawer, shuts the drawer and walks away.

[994] And another kid comes in and you ask the child who's observing this little movie, you say, what does this second child think?

[995] And a typical kid would say, they want to play and they don't know where the ball or doll is or they're upset or they're sad.

[996] They want the doll.

[997] autistic children tend to say the dolls in the drawer the the toys in the drawer they tend to fixate they can't get in on the event they can't get into the mind of that they don't have a theory of mind dreams in rem have a heavy theory of mind component people are after me trying to get me you can assign motive to other people I'm afraid but it's because there's an expectation that doesn't tend to happen in slow wave sleep dreams now all this of course is by waking people up and asking them what they were dreaming about, which from a standpoint of an AI guy or a machine learning or neuroscience is kind of like, but it's the best we've got.

[998] But brain imaging in waking states while people view a movie and then brain imaging while people are sleeping supports the idea that that's basically what's going on.

[999] So REM sleep is amazing and you're not going to get much of it during your bout with Goggins, but you will afterward.

[1000] Why?

[1001] So to comment, why won't I?

[1002] So is it?

[1003] is it not possible to get into it real quick only if you're very very sleep deprived but because you're going to be at high muscular output that's going to bias you towards more slow wave sleep overall and your body and brain are smart they it will know they will know that your main goal is to recover so you can keep going so you can keep firing neuromuscular contractions and you can keep running so that you can I mean it's amazing to think like why do we ever stop the unlike weight training where I can't do a 500 pound deadlift I just can't I could train for it but I certainly can't do a 600 pound dead I can't do that what causes us to stop an endurance event is usually not a physical barrier it's almost always a purely mental barrier and that's a very interesting problem I mean neuroscientists don't tend to think about those sorts of problems because it sounds so non -neuroscientific.

[1004] But that's fundamentally related to the question of, you know, what is pursuit?

[1005] What is the desire to push and to carry on?

[1006] Is there a neuroscientific answer for that question, you think?

[1007] I think the closest thing is this paper from Janalia Farms, the Howard Hughes campus, showing that if you put animals into a simulated environment where you can measure their effort, the forces on while they're running and you can look at the and you can control the visual environment and you can create a scenario where the animal thinks that it's output is futile it thinks it knows it's running and it's actually running but you change the frequency of the stripes going by in their visual world such that they think they're not getting anywhere and eventually they quit and the thing that determines whether or not they quit is a threshold level of epinephrine in the brainstem if you drop that level back down or you or you give the animals dopamine essentially they keep going.

[1008] If you take dopamine down, they're like, this isn't worth it.

[1009] It's helplessness.

[1010] They're just, this isn't worth my time and energy.

[1011] Well, this is where the difference in humans and non -human animals is interesting, because it does feel like humans have an extra level of cognitive ability that might be relevant here.

[1012] Well, you can pull from different time references.

[1013] So if you're in that moment, you're going to need a kit of things to pull from.

[1014] So you can think this is in honor of someone else that passed away.

[1015] Right.

[1016] And you will find a gas reserve that's amazing, right?

[1017] Now, whether or not mice are like, I remember my brother back in the other cage when I was a little mouse, you know, we don't know.

[1018] But it's very likely that they don't do that, that they're so present.

[1019] They're in the experience of there and then and now that they aren't able to extract from the past and they're not able to project into the future, like how great it's going to feel when I get to the end of this really lame VR corridor.

[1020] I don't think they think about that.

[1021] And think about like if I quit now, how will that have, what kind of effect will it have in the rest of my life in the future difficult times?

[1022] Like if you allow yourself to quit in this particular moment, you'll become a quitter more and more in life.

[1023] And then you're going to not get the other nice, the opposite sex mammals.

[1024] That's pretty severe.

[1025] You went there.

[1026] You took it all, You took it the whole way to evolution and back again.

[1027] I mean, but that's really it.

[1028] I mean, our ability to time reference in the past, present, or future.

[1029] I do believe that we can be in the present and the past or the present in the future or only in the present, or only in the present, or only in the past, but I don't think that we can really think about past, present, and future all at once.

[1030] And this has a similarity to covert attention.

[1031] Like, we can split our visual attention into two things.

[1032] We really can duo task, even though we can't multitask.

[1033] So, or we can bring those two spotlights of attention to the same location, but it's very hard to split our attention really well into three domains, excuse me, into three domains.

[1034] I think that that's very, very challenging.

[1035] And our time referencing scheme tends to be just one or two time references.

[1036] So Lisa Feldman Barrett, I'm not sure if you've done work together, but at least you can.

[1037] I found out about her because of you, in your podcast with her, and I brought her on to Instagram, dude on Instagram live about emotion.

[1038] And it was fascinating.

[1039] And she's a very spirited and very, very smart woman.

[1040] Fearless and brilliant.

[1041] So I love her.

[1042] She's amazing.

[1043] She's not a scholar of hallucinogens or dreams.

[1044] But she had this intuition that there may be a connection between the kind of dissociation that happens in dreaming and that happens in like psychedelics.

[1045] I, because of my previous conversation with you on this podcast, Matthew Johnson from Johnston Hopkins reached out.

[1046] And he said, but he commented, I think, on something that we commented on.

[1047] I don't even remember exactly what, but that there's not many studies.

[1048] It's not being psychedelics and not being rigorously studied in an academic setting, like with the full rigor of science.

[1049] And he said, well, actually, that's exactly what we're doing, and they're extremely well -funded now.

[1050] And it's been a long battle to get it accepted as a serious scientific pursuit.

[1051] So, but, and I'd like to ask you a little bit about that.

[1052] Do you have a sense about connection between dreams and psychedelics or these different explorations of mind states that are outside of the standard normal one?

[1053] that's the wake mindset yeah i loved your discussion with matthew i knew of the hopkins group and the stuff they were doing but i didn't know much about it at all and i learned a ton from that podcast i reached out to him just to say i love what you're doing i think it's incredible so yeah your podcast has been a great source of uh serious academic and intellectual um conversation for me um i think what they're doing at hopkins is amazing um he has a collaborator there actually they had a very popular paper I just throw out there for fun, who was a postdoc at Stanford.

[1054] Her name is Gould.

[1055] She's Turkish, I believe.

[1056] And I apologize.

[1057] Her last name escapes me at the moment, but that's just a function of my brain.

[1058] She had a paper showing that she put Octopi on MDMA on Ecstasy and found out, this was published in current biology, showing it was a great journal, showing that the Octopi then wanted to spend more time with other Octopi.

[1059] They started cuddling.

[1060] So their colleagues out there.

[1061] But the Hopkins project is super interesting because I think they were initially supported mainly through private philanthropy.

[1062] And now you're starting to see some more interest at the level of NIH about psychedelics.

[1063] It's a complicated space because the psychedelics are always looked at through the lens of the 60s and people losing their mind.

[1064] And there's a, you know, I always say, you know, you don't.

[1065] I don't want a Ken Keezy out of the game.

[1066] You know, Ken Kese was amazing, right, part of the whole beat generation thing.

[1067] And he was actually at the VA near Stanford.

[1068] That's where he eventually in Menlo Park.

[1069] He wrote one floor of the cuckoo's nest or maybe that was about him.

[1070] Anyway, the comments will tell me how wrong I am.

[1071] But I think I'm tossing these words in the general, in the right general direction.

[1072] But, you know, Huxley, Kesey, they did a lot of LSD.

[1073] And they all lost their jobs, right?

[1074] they lost their jobs at big institutions like Harvard and Stanford and elsewhere, or they left because they made themselves the experiments.

[1075] Hopkins, as far as I know, is one of the first places, if not the first place, where whatever Matt may or may not be doing in his own life, I don't know, it's really about the patients and whether or not the patients in these institutional review board approved studies, whether or not they're getting better in situations like depression.

[1076] I think it's clear that there's a very close relationship between hallucinogenic states and dreaming of the sort that were described for REM dreaming.

[1077] And there's a terrific set of books and body of scientific literature from a guy named Alan Hobson, who was an MD, is at Harvard Med, and he wrote books like Dream Drug Store.

[1078] One of the first neuroscience books I ever read was about hallucinations and how psychedelics and dreaming are very similar.

[1079] That was way back when I was in high school.

[1080] I was just curious, and he really understood the relationship between LSD and REM dreams and how similar they are.

[1081] I think psychedelics, and Matt knows way more about this than I do, of course, but psychedelics have some very interesting properties.

[1082] They are certainly not for everybody, right?

[1083] And kids, it's a problem, you know.

[1084] I think the major issues right now around the psychedelic conversation is that it's clear that they can unveil certain elements of neuroplasticity.

[1085] They make the brain amenable to change, changing up space -time relationships, changing up the emotional load of an event and being able to reframe that.

[1086] It's clear that happens.

[1087] But there's two major issues.

[1088] One is that people talk about plasticity as if plasticity is the goal.

[1089] But plasticity is a state within which you can direct neurology.

[1090] And the question is, what changes are you trying to get to?

[1091] So people are just taking psychedelics to unveil plasticity without thinking about what circuits.

[1092] they want to modify and how, I think that's a problem.

[1093] I think there's great potential, however, for people opening up these states of plasticity with psychedelics or otherwise and directing the plastic changes toward a particular endpoint.

[1094] And there's an absolutely spectacular paper out of UC Davis published as a full article in nature just a couple months ago, showing that there are psychedelics that are now can be modified.

[1095] So chemists have gotten into the game now and modifying to take away the hallucinogenic component where you still get the neuroplasticity components.

[1096] Wow.

[1097] And for a lot of people, it would be like, oh, that's no fun.

[1098] That's not giving you the wild experience.

[1099] But I do think that that holds great potential for people that wouldn't otherwise orient towards some of these drugs.

[1100] So I think it's really marvelous what's happening and what's about to happen.

[1101] And I think there is one drug in that kit of drugs that's very unusual, like psilocybin LSD, those promote heavy, heavy serotonin release and lateralized connections ramp up, etc. Matt talked about all that.

[1102] But MDMA, ecstasy, is a very unusual situation where dopamine is very, very high because of the way the drug is designed.

[1103] Dopamine release, it goes through the roof.

[1104] So people feel great and they want to move and they have a lot of energy.

[1105] But serotonin levels are also high.

[1106] And that's a very unnatural.

[1107] state and why MDMA may may and I want to highlight may have particularly high potential for the treatment of certain forms of depression is an interesting question because never before as far as we know in human history has there been a possibility of opening up dopaminergic and serotonergic states at the same time dopamine being the molecule pursuit and reward and more and and serotonin being one of bliss and being content right where you're at.

[1108] So it's almost like those two things wrap back on themselves and create this very unusual state and I think the bigger conversation is what to do with a state like that.

[1109] Like do you, is it about self -love?

[1110] Is it about developing love for another person?

[1111] Is it about forgetting hate?

[1112] These are powerful molecules and I think if the academic community and the clinical community is going to move forward with them in any serious way, I think there needs to be a conversation about what, they're being used for.

[1113] Right.

[1114] And coupled with that, I think, similar to what you're saying, like Matt has talked about, as others have talked about, some of the biggest benefits of, like, progress, whether it's like quitting smoking and all those kind of stuff, is in the days after.

[1115] It's the integration of the experience.

[1116] So maybe you open up the brain to the neuroplasticity, but then there's, like, work to be done it's not you're like you shake up something in the biology of the brain but you have to do then it's work absolutely a friend of mine who's a physician he says um who's quite open to this idea that psychedelics could play a real role in in real medicine says um better living through chemistry still requires better living and and i think it's it's a beautiful statement i wish i had said it be but he gets the credit, but the plasticity window opens and then, as you said, what are you going to do in the two weeks, three weeks, four weeks afterward?

[1117] Because that's the real opportunity.

[1118] But those psychedelic experiences are really a case of an amplified experience inside of an amplified experience, so much so that everything seems relevant.

[1119] And it's fascinating.

[1120] I mean, my hope is that the AI and machine learning and the brain machine interface and all that will eventually be merged with the psychedelic treatments so that an individual can go in, take whatever amount of whatever safe for them, working with a clinician, and really direct the plasticity while maybe stimulating the orbital frontal, medial orbital cortex or increasing the observer or decreasing the observer in the brain or decreasing the amygdala.

[1121] I mean, it's doable.

[1122] It's doable with transcranial magnetic stimulation and it's for shutting down activity and it's doable with ultrasound.

[1123] Ultrasound now allows very focal activation of particular brain regions through the skull, non -invasively.

[1124] So it's approaching the same kind of therapy from different angles.

[1125] One of AI is the computational size of injecting like the robotics, injecting like maybe you can even think about it as like electricity, the electrical approach versus then like the chemical approach.

[1126] Absolutely.

[1127] And then the psychology is subjective, right?

[1128] So it's going to take some real, um, understanding of what that person's, um, lexicon is.

[1129] Like, you know, that wasn't a pun.

[1130] Sorry.

[1131] I'm sorry.

[1132] I'm sorry.

[1133] Terrible.

[1134] That's the one thing I know from the feedback on my podcast.

[1135] My jokes are terrible, but I never claim to be funny.

[1136] The, the, uh, but somebody who they really trust and understands when somebody says, you know, for a very stoic person, like I'm imagining, uh, you interviewed the great Dan Gable.

[1137] Right.

[1138] I don't know anything about.

[1139] but can you imagine like you ask Dan like you know how you feel about something while on one of these drugs and like I mean his languaging might if he says that was troubling it might mean that it was very troubling or not troubling at all so people are language is a poor guide because if I say I'm upset how upset is that well that's very subjective so you need we need can you build a tool for that can you build an AI tool for that yeah deeper yeah well maybe that's the I maybe that's our that's what the eyes could reveal.

[1140] So language is not just words, it's everything together.

[1141] And that's one of the fascinating things about the eyes in the window to the soul.

[1142] I mean, they express so much, the face, the eyes, the body.

[1143] I mean, Lisa talks about that, the communication of emotions.

[1144] It's a super complex.

[1145] Perhaps it's a bit of a side, fun tangent, but Matt, Matthew Johnson brings up DMT.

[1146] And the experience of DMT is a, as a as a as from a scientific perspective just a just a mystery in itself over its intensity and what happens to the brain and of course joe rogan and others bring it up as a very different special kind of experience uh the and elves seem to come up often i've never tried DMT what allows for hallucinogenic states yes and it i mean DMT is a really interesting molecule there there are a lot of people experimenting now with DMT.

[1147] And they just the way they've described it is as a kind of a freight train through space and time, very different than the way people describe LSD type experiences or psilocybin, where time and space are very fluid, but it tends to be a kind of a slower role, if you will.

[1148] So it's clear that DMT is tapping into a brain state that's distinctly different than the other psychedelics.

[1149] And you mentioned jiu -jitsu and these other communities.

[1150] I mean, it's, I think it's interesting because jiu -jitsu is a nonverbal activity and people get together and talk about this non -verbal activity and they show great love for it.

[1151] In the same way that surfers, you know, I've known some surfers in my time, and they will get up at the crack of dawn and drive really, really far to sit in the water and wait for this wave to come.

[1152] I have to imagine it's pretty fantastic.

[1153] I think that human beings now, some of whom we're in the scientific community, are starting to feel comfortable enough to talk about some of these other loves and other endeavors because they do reveal a certain component about our underlying neurology.

[1154] I'm fascinated by the concept of wordlessness.

[1155] Activities in which language is just not sufficient to capture and in which feel so vital as a reset, as important as sleep.

[1156] You know, I think that's one of the dangers of the phone is not that you're going to get into some online battle or that you're always staring at the phone, is that it's of words.

[1157] As we read things, we're hearing the script in our head.

[1158] And I think getting into states where we are in a state of wordlessness is very renewing and replenishing and just can feel amazing.

[1159] And I believe also can help us tap into creative states and allow our neurology to access creative states.

[1160] And sleep is one such wordlessness, period.

[1161] So one of the most interesting things to me are states that one can approach in waking, non -sleep depressed, wordlessness through maybe it's jujitsu, maybe it's for some people surfing, maybe it's dancing, maybe it's just, I don't know, staring at a wall, who knows, but where the language components of the brain are completely shut down.

[1162] And it has to be the case that drugs are no drugs, that the brain is entering, and starting to states and starting to use algorithms that are distinctly different than when we're trying to compose things in any kind of coherent way for someone else to understand.

[1163] There's no interest in anyone else understanding what you're experiencing in that moment.

[1164] And that's beautiful.

[1165] And I think it's not just beautiful because it feels good.

[1166] I think it's beautiful because it's important and it's clearly fundamental to our neurology.

[1167] And your sense is there's a connection between dreams and DMT and like psychedelic, But like all of the, you can understand one by studying the other.

[1168] So, for example, dreams are also very difficult to study, right?

[1169] But they're more accessible.

[1170] It's safe for the study.

[1171] And we're told we need to get more of it.

[1172] Whereas with psychedelics, there's this big question mark.

[1173] Is it going to make everyone crazy?

[1174] Is it going to be legal?

[1175] I mean, it's kind of interesting how if one looks on Instagram, one could almost think that these drugs are already legal based on the way that people commute.

[1176] But they're not yet.

[1177] there's still a lot of them are scheduling.

[1178] And there's a lot of questions.

[1179] I mean, but nevertheless, it's like, my hope is that science opens up to these drugs a little bit more.

[1180] It's just, I have this intuition that like a lot of people share that they would be able to unlock deeper understanding of our own mind.

[1181] It's any kind of, same as studying dreams.

[1182] Absolutely.

[1183] Well, creativity is a. in the non -linearities, right?

[1184] But productivity is in the implementation of linearities.

[1185] I mean, that's what is absolutely clear.

[1186] This is why I think we were talking earlier about why a formal rigorous training in something where other people are looking at you and telling you, no, not good enough, go back and do it again.

[1187] There's real value to that because otherwise it's just ideas.

[1188] It's just vapors.

[1189] You know, one thing that Matt mentioned is the study that they're working on is as opposed to, I think most of the psychedelic studies they've done is on how to treat different conditions.

[1190] And one of the things they're working on now is to try to do a study where for creatives, for people that don't have a condition that's trying to treat, but instead see how this, how psychedelics can help you create.

[1191] So like, goodness, if you take creatives and you give them more psychedelics, they're not going to be able to get out of their right i don't well but this is the i maybe you can speak to that uh psychedelics or not or dreams or tools in general how to be better creative that that's an interesting i don't often see studies of this nature of like how to take high performance in the mental creative space and get them to perform even uh better so it's not average people it's like masters of their craft like taking, I mean, his examples was taking an Elon Musk, which is in the engineering space and maybe musicians and all that kind of stuff and studying that.

[1192] That's a, I mean, that's weird.

[1193] Usually the science, the scientific exploration there has been done by the musicians themselves as has been documented.

[1194] Like jazz is like all non -linearities.

[1195] Yeah.

[1196] But if it's, but the people still have to know how to play their instruments.

[1197] Right.

[1198] Right.

[1199] There's some early, early skill building that's critical.

[1200] I mean, when you mentioned someone like Elon, I mean, virtual, I mean, he's already a virtuoso, right?

[1201] And in so many different domains.

[1202] I've never met them, but it's clear, right?

[1203] He, it's not just that he's ambitious and bold and brave and all that.

[1204] It's all that.

[1205] And there's, there's clearly a different way of looking at the same problems that everyone else is looking at.

[1206] And people are probably banging their head against the refrigerators and think differently.

[1207] It doesn't work that way.

[1208] It involved, there's a certain anxiety in for the I'm not talking about for Elon but I don't have no idea but I think for somebody who's very structured very regimented very linear the anxiety comes from letting go of those linearities and for the person that's very creative the anxiety comes from trying to impose linearities right the really creative artists or musician they're they seem nuts they seem like they can't get their life together because they can't and they you know we look at people who are kind of pseudo -asperger's or asperger's or some forms of autism and they are so hyper -linear but you take away those linear and they freak out and that's kind of the essence of some of those syndromes so i think that the ability to toggle back and forth between those states is what's remarkable i mean because we're here and we're having this discussion i mean steve jobs is a good example he probably the best example somebody who actually talked about his own process about the merging of art and science art and engineering humanities and science very few people can do that well i you seem to have a capacity to do that i like you you know poetry and you are a i guy like you there's nothing linear about poetry as far as i can tell i mean i i do wonder just like what we've been talking about if there's any ways to push that to its limits to explore further i don't like leaning this this is why i'm bothered there's not more science and psychedelics is i haven't done almost so i've eaten mushrooms a few times, allegedly.

[1209] But that's it.

[1210] And the reason I don't do more, the reason I haven't done DMT is because it's illegal.

[1211] And it's like not well studied.

[1212] And it, you know, I'm in those things, I'm not usually at the cutting edge, but I'm very curious.

[1213] And it feels like there could be tools to be discovered there, not for fun, not for recreation, but for like encouraging.

[1214] whether you're a linear thinking to go non -linear or it's non -linear to go linear, like to shake things up.

[1215] You mentioned Dan Gable.

[1216] The idea of Dan Gable on psychedelics is fascinating to me because he's such a control freak.

[1217] I mean, that I would show up for.

[1218] That would I show up for.

[1219] But like so much of these psychedelics experiences it feels like are letting go.

[1220] That's right.

[1221] You don't want to resist.

[1222] But that's supposedly where the growth is in giving oneself over to the process.

[1223] And that's for people who are like master controllers.

[1224] He's one of the greatest coaches of all time.

[1225] It's fascinating to see what that battle looks like of resistance and then of letting go.

[1226] Yeah, I mean, I can't wait to see where these studies takes us.

[1227] What's clearly happening.

[1228] You know, I've asked, there I have a couple colleagues at Stanford who are doing animal studies.

[1229] I've asked around, you know, there's a lot of discussion in the neuroscience community about what the perception of a laboratory is if they work on psychedelics.

[1230] I mean, I have to tip my hat to the folks at Hopkins.

[1231] They are pioneers.

[1232] And as Terry Signowski, he's a computational neuroscientist down at Salk says, I don't think he was the first person to say he says, you know how to spot the pioneers.

[1233] They're the ones with the arrows in their backs.

[1234] Yeah.

[1235] And, you know, it's an unkind world to a scientist that's trying to do really cutting -edge stuff.

[1236] My colleague, David Spiegel, who studies medical hypnosis.

[1237] He's got dozens of studies now showing that hypnosis can be beneficial for pain management, anxiety management, cancer outcomes.

[1238] And it's finally, you know, at the point where there's so much data.

[1239] But people hear hypnosis and they think of stage hypnosis, which is like the furthest thing from what he's doing.

[1240] And I think mind -body type stuff, hypnosis, respiration and breathing.

[1241] I think the hard science walk into the problem is always going to be best to get the community.

[1242] on board.

[1243] And then it's up to people like Matt and to really, you know, take it to the next level.

[1244] And as I say, not Keezy out of the game because Kesey basically was taken too much of his own stuff and he started dressing crazy of banana hats.

[1245] And like you see him, he had the magic bus.

[1246] So, you know, the day I, the day I start driving to work in the magic bus.

[1247] That's the day I lose my job.

[1248] I'm not into buses or wearing fruit.

[1249] But you're going to get a phone call for me and I hope you do the same for me as like you like dude what are you doing well what's interesting earlier we're talking about the challenge with david that you're about to do i mean that is a psychedelic experience of sorts because you're biasing your mind towards a pretty extreme neurochemical state and you don't know what you're going to find there and that's kind of the excitement at least for me as an observer it's like i want to know what what the experience is like afterward i want to know like how was it i mean i'm sure you're going to get something Like you said, you're going to grow.

[1250] The question is how.

[1251] And not resisting.

[1252] I mean, it's the same as with a psychedelic experience.

[1253] It's like not, like giving yourself over completely to the experience and not resisting and going through the whole mental journey of whether it's anger or excitement or exhaustion, the whole thing.

[1254] It's, I mean, that's the entirety of the process that David goes through when he does his own challenges and so on is that whole journey.

[1255] he finds purposely like missile seeks the limits of the mind that that whatever the resistance is felt runs up against it and then goes to the full journey of going beyond it and seeing what's there on the other side well stress has these two sides the limbic friction of being tired and needing to get more energized that's one form of stress and then there's the feeling too amped up and needing to calm down the the typical discussion around stress is one thing but it's all limbic friction.

[1256] It's just that when I say limbic friction, that's not a real scientific term.

[1257] I just mean the limbic system wanting to pull you down into sleep or wanting to put you into panic and you using top -down processing, using that evolved forebrain to say, I'm not going to go to sleep and I'm not going to freak out.

[1258] And those top -down control mechanisms are, I mean, when those get honed, that's beautiful because then you're increasing capacity for everything.

[1259] you uh this month on the podcast you're talking about neuroplasticity you mentioned in a bunch already is there something you're looking forward to specifically like something maybe you're fascinated by that jumps to mind about neuroplasticity this fascinating property of the brain yeah i think that it's clear there's one facet of neuroplasticity that is very well supported by the research data that hardly anyone is implemented in the real world.

[1260] And that's the release of acetylcholine from these neurons in the forebrain called nucleus basalis.

[1261] This is mainly the work of Mike Mersinich, who used to be at UCSF, and some of his scientific offspring, Greg Reckin's own and Michael Kilgard and others.

[1262] What they showed was increases in acetylcholine, this molecule associated with focus, in concert, meaning at the same time as some event, motor event or music event or any kind of sensory event immediately reorganizes the neocortex so that there's a permanent map representation of that event.

[1263] And I absolutely believe that this can be channeled toward accelerated skill learning.

[1264] And my friend and colleague Eddie Chang is now the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, but also a fine scientist in his own right, not just a clinician.

[1265] He's doing studies looking at rapid acquisition of language using these principles.

[1266] He trained with Mersenik.

[1267] it's clear we have these gates on plasticity in the forebrain, and they are gated by nicotinic acetylcholine transmission.

[1268] And why that hasn't made it into protocols for motor learning, sport learning, language learning, music learning, emotional learning.

[1269] I don't know.

[1270] I think part of the reason has been kind of cultural is that scientists publish their paper and they move on.

[1271] Mersenik talked a lot and still can be found from time to time talking about how these plasticity mechanisms can be leveraged.

[1272] But he had a commercial company, and so then people kind of backed away from him a little bit.

[1273] I think he was, to be honest, I think Mersenick was ahead of his time.

[1274] And I think the timing is right now for people to understand these mechanisms of plasticity and start to implement them.

[1275] Also, you know, it all sounds like becoming superhuman or optimizing or whatever.

[1276] All that, yes.

[1277] But also, what about kids with language learning deficits or with dyslexia or just performance in school in general.

[1278] I have a deep interesting concern for the future of science and mathematics and not just in this country, but all over the world.

[1279] And more plasticity equals faster, better, deeper learning.

[1280] And if we don't do this, I don't think we're going to get the full reach out of all the machine learning tools either.

[1281] Because everyone talks about these huge data sets.

[1282] But those huge data sets have funnel into human interpretation.

[1283] I mean, And we don't just like stare at the numbers and bask, right?

[1284] So the human brain, I think, needs to leverage these plasticity mechanisms to keep up with the thing that's happening very, very fast, which is technology development.

[1285] So that's a long -winded way of saying basal forebrain, cholinergic transmission, and plasticity, it allows for plastic in adulthood, and it allows for it in single trial learning, which is incredible.

[1286] But how do we leverage that?

[1287] Like, in the physical space taking actions, or is there some chemicals that can stimulate neuroplasticity?

[1288] I think it's the intersection of the two.

[1289] I think it's being engaged in a physical practice while enhancing pharmacology.

[1290] It has to be done safely.

[1291] And this is full of open questions.

[1292] This is the very beginnings of it, like you're saying.

[1293] Yeah, a pill that's safe that increases nicotinic transmission.

[1294] I mean, I know a number of people that chew Nicorette.

[1295] Actually, I have a Nobel Prize winning colleague at Columbia, not to be named, who choose like six pieces of Nicorette and a half hour conversation with him.

[1296] And he started doing that as a replacement for smoking because smoking is nicotine, nicotinic stimulation of the colonergic system.

[1297] So smokers have long known that increases focus and attention and learning.

[1298] It's just the lung cancer thing is a barrier.

[1299] Now, I'm not suggesting people take Nicorette, but it's clear that we need better directed pharmacology.

[1300] But you can imagine next time you go in for a learning about if it's really essential, you might want to stimulate the nicotinic system, if that's safe for you.

[1301] Again, I'm a doctor, so again, I'm not telling people to do this, but that's where it's going.

[1302] Until we start merging machines with pharmacology and behavior, we're just kind of walking around in the circle over and over again, and it's going to happen.

[1303] Do you find computer vision, machine learning from the perspective of tooling as an interesting tool for analyzing, for processing all the data from the neuroscience world, from the neurobiology, biology, all the different data sets that you can have about the mind, the eye, everything that's neck and above, and also the central nervous system and all.

[1304] Absolutely.

[1305] I think that computer science and engineering and chemistry, bioengineering is that's what's creating the acceleration in progress in neuroscience right now.

[1306] I think it's actually one place where science, I'm very reassured, science has invited in psychologists, computational biologists, at least at Stanford, MIT, and other places too, of course, it's clear that it's a everyone's invited kind of party right now.

[1307] The major issue in the field of neuroscience, at least through my view, is that there's no conceptual leadership.

[1308] No one is saying we need to work on and solve this problem or that problem.

[1309] It's very fragmented right now.

[1310] Now the good news is people are communicating.

[1311] So computer scientists and people who work on AI, machine vision are talking to biologists and vice versa.

[1312] But it's very dispersed.

[1313] Is there a lot of different data sets?

[1314] Like in your work that you've just come across, is there a huge number of disparate data sets around neuroscience and on or well there's a lot of cell sequencing stuff so the brod over it you know in in boston and then on this coast the chan zookerberg initiative um what you know um they did you know three billion dollars to sequence every cell type in humans and in animals and trying i think their goal is to cure every disease by some date i don't know in the in the future um huge data sets of gene expression and protein expression, that's valuable.

[1315] I think no one really knows how to think about neural circuits and what is a neural circuit.

[1316] Is it one structure?

[1317] Is it two structures communicating?

[1318] I think this is where I actually think that the robotics is going to tell us how the brain works.

[1319] Because it's tempting to think that the brain has all these cell types and circuits in order to solve specific problems.

[1320] But it might be that the fundamental algorithm is to create cells and circuits that can solve variable problems.

[1321] We know in the retina, just a very simple example is that we've always heard about like cones are for color vision and high acuity and rods are for night vision and non -color vision.

[1322] But at the dusk -dawn transition, certain cell types switch to do completely different, have a completely different function for viewing starry night versus what they do during the daytime.

[1323] So neurons multiplex.

[1324] And I think building machines, that can multiplex and can evolve themselves is going to help us really understand what the brain is doing.

[1325] We need to tease out the fundamental algorithms.

[1326] We know they're like motion detection and spatial vision and things like that.

[1327] I think machines are going to be much faster at that than our understanding of biology and how the brain does that.

[1328] Basically, I'll be out of a job and people like you will have a job.

[1329] Well, no, I think the main idea is that there won't be a job that's machine learning or computer vision.

[1330] It's just, it's a tool that neuroscientists will use more and more and more, and biologists would use.

[1331] I mean, this whole idea that it will just be a tool that allows you to start expanding the kind of things you can study.

[1332] Well, the next generation coming up, I can say this, because I now am blessed to have a bioengineering student.

[1333] They think about problems so differently than biologists do.

[1334] We realized the other day we both.

[1335] came up with a set of ideas around a certain project and we realized that her version of it was the exact opposite of mine, you know, and hers was far, far more rational.

[1336] It's just an engineering perspective.

[1337] It's like, why would we do that last?

[1338] We should do that first.

[1339] I think that the next generation is really interested in solving practical problems.

[1340] It's a lot like computer science and engineering was in the late 90s.

[1341] It was like you can go do a PhD in computer science and engineering, maybe, or you go work for a company and actually build stuff that's useful.

[1342] I think neuroscientists and people interested in neuroscience are starting to think, how can I build stuff that's useful?

[1343] And this statement is supported by the fact that many people in my business leave their academic labs.

[1344] Fortunately, not all of them, but they leave their academic labs and they go work for companies, like NeuralLink.

[1345] Like Neurrelink.

[1346] This is something I think we've spoken a few times offline about, I mean, speaking of computer vision, I'm fascinated by the eye.

[1347] I did a bunch of work on the eye.

[1348] So there's the neuroscientist, there's a neurobiology way of studying the eye, and there's the computer vision way of studying the eye, and the computer vision way of studying the eye of just like observing, non -contact sensing of humans is really fascinating to me in studying human behavior in different contexts, like in semi -autonomous vehicles.

[1349] It seemed like there's a lot of signal that comes from the eye that comes from blinking that's not fully understood yet.

[1350] It's been in the lab, it's been used quite a bit to study like the dilation of the pupil, all those kinds of things are used to infer workload, cognitive load, all those kinds of things.

[1351] But the pictures is murky.

[1352] It's not completely well understood, especially in the wild, how much signal you can get from the eye, from the human face.

[1353] I've downloaded Joe Rogan's all of the podcast he's ever done video.

[1354] You have the YouTube bank.

[1355] I have the YouTube bank for a reason that this was before he went with Spotify.

[1356] You own the archive.

[1357] There's PubMed, and then there's the Joe Rogan experience owned by, or maintained by Lex.

[1358] Yeah, privately, for my private collection.

[1359] No, the reason I did it, and I did the really, like, rigorous processing of it, which is like the, I extracted all of the faces.

[1360] I did the really good blink track of the pupil tracking and the blink detection for the entirety.

[1361] I should say it's from episode like, I forget what it is, but it's like episode 900 when they switched to 1080P video.

[1362] But it was like much crappier video.

[1363] It's still kind of.

[1364] Did you log when there was marijuana consumption or when they were drinking?

[1365] I mean, there's so many.

[1366] Because that's going to, like, just, it won't throw off the data, but it's relevant to the, the pupil data.

[1367] So let's just put it this way.

[1368] There's a lot of fascinating computer vision problems involved, but I only kept long sequences of data where the eyes detected exceptionally well.

[1369] And I also removed people that were wearing glasses.

[1370] I removed, there are certain people that have a way of, uh, moving their eyes and squinting where it's harder to infer like concrete blinks.

[1371] You know, they'll kind of have a squint the whole time.

[1372] And their blink is very light.

[1373] It's very tough to know what's, uh, what's an actual blink.

[1374] And you got those baseball cap wearing guys like that.

[1375] There are certain people that go on podcasts and wear baseball caps and don't reveal their, I don't know if they realize it or not until it comes out, but their face is completely obscured from vision.

[1376] And from a computer vision perspective, people that wear makeup, and usually women on their eyes, it complicates things.

[1377] Like eyelashes, all complicated things.

[1378] So, you know, you can clean stuff up just so you have really crisp signal.

[1379] You don't have to.

[1380] You can deal with issues, but, you know, there's so many hours of Joe Rogan video.

[1381] Anyway, I say all that because I was searching for an interesting personal experiment for me because I saw in drivers when I was looking at eye movement and drivers, there seemed to indicate there seem to be quite a lot of signal there that indicates amount of cognitive load.

[1382] But it's not clear if there's something conclusive.

[1383] But if there is some signal, that's a really powerful one because eye movement can be detected in the wild.

[1384] Like you and I sitting here, I can detect eye movement really well.

[1385] Pupil dilation is a really crappy indicator.

[1386] And it's luminance dependent.

[1387] Like if I turn toward a light, it's a route, people change size depending on level of alertness, autonomic arousal, but also overall levels of luminance.

[1388] It's very, very hard.

[1389] But there are, I mean, you're sitting on a gold mine because there is a lot of interest right now in measuring state through non -content.

[1390] exact sensing.

[1391] Heart rate variability through changes in skin tone, just off a camera.

[1392] Can you imagine that at the point where you just look at some video and you're like, oh, they're getting more stressed or worked up and they're not based on a heat map of some little patch on their face because everyone's going to have this like, you know, sort of compartmentalize it slightly differently, but you can learn it pretty quickly.

[1393] We know this when someone's like giving a talk and we see them starting it blotching on their, on their neck.

[1394] You know, this is like the thesis defense response, right?

[1395] We know it and it's a stressful situation.

[1396] because not passing your thesis defense is rough.

[1397] And we can see that, but cameras can pick that up really easily at much lower levels than the blatant blotching kind of effect.

[1398] And eye movements certainly are powerful indications of the state of the autonomic system.

[1399] So do you think there are things from a high level that you can pick up from eye movement and blinking?

[1400] Well, blink frequency is going to increase as people get tired.

[1401] Right.

[1402] It's actually been teased a lot online because I don't blink much when I'll do a post.

[1403] And so I did a whole post about blinking, about the science of blinking.

[1404] There's some data, very strong data, not from my lab, that show that every time you blink, it resets your perception of time.

[1405] They have people do these kind of track a kind of a Doppler -like thing.

[1406] And anyway, blinking resets your perception of time.

[1407] There's a dopaminergic mechanism in the blink -related circuitry of the brain.

[1408] When people are very alert, they tend to not blink very much.

[1409] When we're sleepy, we tend to blink.

[1410] more and our eyes tend to close.

[1411] Now, some people are more hooded in the way their eyes sit.

[1412] Some people are like this all the time.

[1413] There are some very famous people.

[1414] I'm not going to name them because I might run into them at some point who are like accused of being sociopaths because they don't blink very often.

[1415] But they might just have high levels of autonomic arousal.

[1416] They just don't blink very much.

[1417] Also depends on how lubricated the eyes are.

[1418] So I think within individual, you can get a lot of information.

[1419] I don't think we can say this person's blinking a lot.

[1420] They're lying.

[1421] This person or they're tired.

[1422] This person doesn't blink.

[1423] They're stressed.

[1424] I think if you understand that person's baseline, you can get it.

[1425] And presumably, well, having been on the Joe Rogan experience, I can say when you first sit down there if you've never been in there before.

[1426] You're in my day aside, by the way.

[1427] Well, I bet you I will admit to being, you know, first time being sitting down there.

[1428] I mean, Joe is incredibly gracious.

[1429] Made me feel very comfortable there.

[1430] But it's a, It's an intense experience.

[1431] It's a small space, too.

[1432] Anytime you enter a small space from a big space in his old studio, you're familiar with, there's a breaking in period where you're getting to know somebody.

[1433] And so I'm sure my levels of autonomic arousal front of the podcast were higher than later.

[1434] But once you have a baseline established, you can get a lot of data on somebody simply from blinks, some people averting gaze to.

[1435] If you have both people, that's really powerful.

[1436] This is the holy grail of another holy grail of neuroscience.

[1437] We've mainly looked at subjects in isolation.

[1438] There hasn't been much brain imaging of two people in interacting or even in animal models of two mice or two monkeys interacting.

[1439] It's all like person scanner, bite bar.

[1440] I mean, if you've ever been in one of these scanners, you're like in a bite bar.

[1441] It's very medieval.

[1442] So you think in the interaction, there's actually you can almost study them as a single brain or as a single system.

[1443] The two brains are a single system.

[1444] I think with AI, highly correlated.

[1445] Yeah, maybe are your blinks triggering my blinks?

[1446] Like, you know, are your non -blink epochs, you know, extending my non -blink epochs?

[1447] There's a fascinating space to explore there, and no one's done it.

[1448] And because everyone let the Joe Rogan experience archive disappear, except for you.

[1449] You grabbed, did you get the comments too?

[1450] Because I think the comments were almost as entertaining as the conversation.

[1451] You know what you just made me realize with the coupling is I have a better data set in the Joe Rogan podcast with high -resum.

[1452] resolution video, which is the raw video for this podcast.

[1453] So, for example, both cameras right now are recording you and I full feed.

[1454] The final result will switch cameras back and forth, but I have the full feed.

[1455] Right.

[1456] So I can have the blinking for both you and I the whole time.

[1457] I bet you people trigger blinks and in one another, you know, and there's also like the simplest way to think about the blinks and the attentional thing and the alertness is two fighters in the in the standoff there's this whole lore around who blinks first yeah it's like they blink first well what are what are we really asking they're asking whether or not one person can maintain focus longer than the other person which is an important parameter it's not the only parameter but it's an important parameter and so that blinking contest even though they don't square off as a blinking contest it's well known that the first to blink is revealing something about their capacity to hold attention.

[1458] You've started an amazing podcast.

[1459] We mentioned a few times.

[1460] People should definitely check it out.

[1461] It's called the Huberman Lab Podcasts.

[1462] It does your, it's basically, it embodies the personality of Andrew Huberman, which is like make science accessible, but also fascinating and and giving it, like, what do you call it?

[1463] You give tools for everyday life, meaning it kind of grounds it and like, what the hell does this mean for my life?

[1464] But then also does the beauty of science at the same time.

[1465] So I love both the rigor and the openness of the whole thing plus the whole corrections things that we mentioned.

[1466] Anyway, what's been the hardest part of this whole process?

[1467] You're one of already, one of the only, and one of the best science podcasters out there.

[1468] So in that process, what's been the hardest, what's been the most exciting part.

[1469] Well, first of all, thanks for the kind words about the podcast.

[1470] It was inspired by you.

[1471] I absolutely, that's no BS.

[1472] The last time we met to do an interview for your podcast, we talked a little bit about it, and you gave me the subtle nudge that maybe there was a podcast there was a podcast there thought about it and I left and it was just like I got to do this thing and you really gave me the encouragement to do it and your podcast this podcast has really forged the way you've been tip of the spear on serious scientific intellectual yet fun accessible conversation and so I as your colleague and friend and but just even if those things weren't true like this podcast was and is the inspiration there's no question so much yeah i really like 100 % and when i decided to do the podcast the huberman lab podcast i thought really long and hard about what would work best and would be most beneficial turned out to be the hardest thing which is to stay on a single topic for three or four more episodes before switching to a new topic because i know from the experience of university and teaching in university as you know i'm as well that there's always the temptation to pivot to something else.

[1473] But the drilling into something really deeply is where the where the gems reside.

[1474] And the challenge has been how to make it interesting, how to keep people on board, how to give people tools along the way, but also stay close to the scientific data.

[1475] I like to think that we're headed in the right direction.

[1476] It still needs to evolve.

[1477] But that's been a challenge.

[1478] I think, I also am challenged by the fact that there's a tremendous range of backgrounds of listeners.

[1479] So some people have asked for more names, like more bits and parts of the nervous system and cellular molecular mechanisms and all that kind of thing.

[1480] And other people have said, I don't understand any of that stuff, but I think I'm keeping up.

[1481] And so unlike a university course where there are prerequisites and everyone's coming in the table with more or less the same knowledge, I have a very limited sense of what the audience knows and doesn't know.

[1482] So that's why I incorporated the feature of the comment section on YouTube being a source of feedback.

[1483] And I do a kind of an office hours like episode every third or fourth episode where I address common questions.

[1484] And I think that the podcast space in my mind, at least for the sort of podcast I'm doing, needed a venue for the listeners to be a more integral part of the experience as opposed to just commenting on what they liked or didn't like.

[1485] So while I like to hear what people liked and didn't like, I also really like to hear about, hey, tell me more about temperature minimums and how they can be used to phase shifts or cadium rhythms or whatever it is.

[1486] And I realize that I'm probably losing some people along the way.

[1487] But hopefully at the end of each month and because of the way that the episodes are archived, people will come away feeling as if they've learned a ton and they have tools that they can implement.

[1488] And perhaps most importantly, that they're starting to think scientifically about the tons of other stuff that's out there.

[1489] So that's been the challenge and it's still really early days.

[1490] But, and of course, there's also an intentional challenge.

[1491] I realize that people are busy.

[1492] Not everyone has two hours to listen to a podcast about jet lag and shift work and raising kids and sleep and that kind of thing.

[1493] I'm not raising kids, but I did a whole thing about babies and sleep with, you know, and how parents can manage their sleep when kids aren't sleeping.

[1494] So it's been, I'm hacking through the jungle of all this stuff.

[1495] but and I'll come right back to I it my inspiration and my my my my uh north star on this is getting to a point where the audience that listens to this feels the same way that I do when I listen to your podcast thank you so much like when I turn into your podcast I'm going to embarrass you a little bit more by complimenting you a little bit more um but not out of a sadistic thing but just because when I tune into your podcast or Joe's podcast, I have the same sensation that other people have, like, I feel like I'm home of sorts.

[1496] I'm like, I'm familiar with the space, and I'd like people to feel comfortable in the space that is the Huber and Lab podcast, whatever that ends up being.

[1497] Yeah, that's the magic of podcasting.

[1498] It's like, I feel like I'm part of your life now in a way that, as a fan, that I wouldn't be otherwise.

[1499] And, you know, like, I never was able to have that with Carl Sagan, for example.

[1500] you know and that's a whole other level of connection with a human being that gets you excited and then I share your excitement about different topics in neuroscience or just biology in general and then I don't have to actually understand everything you're saying to really enjoy it so that's the magical podcasting is like you can go through like 10 minutes and understanding what the hell of person is saying, and then you enjoy the excitement, and then you reconnect to a thing that you do understand what they're saying.

[1501] And, you know, that's that personal coupled with the scientific rigor is magic.

[1502] And finding the right, it's exploration.

[1503] Like, Joe found something that works for comedians, which is like, you know, having a good laugh, but also every once in a while talking seriously about difficult topics.

[1504] The scientific space, it was unclear.

[1505] You haven't had guests on yet.

[1506] Maybe you'll come on as our first guest.

[1507] I was going to invite my, I was going to try to force myself in there.

[1508] I'm officially inviting you now.

[1509] Will you come on the podcast?

[1510] I would love to it.

[1511] Fantastic.

[1512] But it was hard, it's still a little bit difficult to tell people that, no, you don't get it.

[1513] We're not going to talk for 10 minutes.

[1514] We're going to talk for three or four hours.

[1515] hours.

[1516] It's a different for scientists, for like, they're like, what, I don't, what are we going to talk about?

[1517] They think it's like the NPR interview.

[1518] Yes.

[1519] And they don't realize, first of all, I think at his best, if you're like at the level of Joe Rogan, who I think is an excellent conversationalist, it, you just lose track of time.

[1520] It can be three, four, five hours and you lose track of time.

[1521] I'm still not there.

[1522] I find that it's still painful.

[1523] Like, the conversation is still challenging sometimes you don't lose quite as much of track of time it's still an intellectual effort and i think it might always be as it would be with you because you're talking about difficult topics maybe that require more brain you're not just shooting the shit with like a brian red band or somebody like comedians or just joking what's like uh remember those shows um like where those shows where someone would come out and like spin plates and they're running back and forth And so really good scientific discussion is like that.

[1524] You have to be maintaining three or four different logical arguments and jumping back and forth.

[1525] It's occasionally getting to like a real streak of linearity.

[1526] But as we found today that typically there's three or four different things that we're bouncing back and forth from.

[1527] And that requires a lot of updating of these, you know, four brain circuits.

[1528] It's not it's not a passive listening experience.

[1529] But I like to think that the brain likes that.

[1530] I do want to ask just because we all.

[1531] I don't want to forget the question came up to me is your podcast has the same kind of rigor that I think like a Dan Carlin podcast has who's a history podcaster That's definitely a compliment Thank you of Dan's Dan's way You know he's something for me to aspire to So he goes through hell to prepare He spends months preparing It feels like You've had to really prepare for your podcast I definitely prepare hard.

[1532] How, is that, are you okay?

[1533] Yeah, I mean, how much effort does that take?

[1534] It feels like a conference presentation.

[1535] Yeah, so we record once a week, and in the intervening time, I listen to many university level lectures, so NIH has a bank of lectures, I have some sources of recorded university seminars.

[1536] I'm trying to find the points of intersection.

[1537] So like for four episodes on sleep, it's not like I'm going to just regurgitate a popular book or take one lecture and just, you know, poach the content.

[1538] I'm going to find the overlap in the different elements.

[1539] I also, so what I'll do is I'll generally read 10 or 15 papers, and generally those are good reviews, annual reviews, interview of neuroscience, annual review of physiology, those kinds of things.

[1540] I'll chase a few references.

[1541] I'll listen to some YouTube videos, but of university level lectures.

[1542] And then I throw all that on a whiteboard, usually while I work out in the morning, I'll just be working out.

[1543] I have a gym in my house and I'll just put up all these random ideas.

[1544] I want to cover that.

[1545] Dreams, hallucination.

[1546] And then I take that and I start eliminate, I draw lines between the common points of intersection.

[1547] And then from that, I distill out an outline.

[1548] And then I basically think about what I want to say on my walks with my dog.

[1549] And I bother a couple people and blab to them.

[1550] So I would say each podcast, yeah, I put in 10 to 15 hours at least of passive listening preparation and maybe five or six of active preparation.

[1551] So I do prepare quite a lot.

[1552] But it has a certain reward component for me. To come up at the end with something that's somewhat crystallized for me is just so satisfying.

[1553] It feel like there's something about my dopamine circuits that just love that.

[1554] And the only pain is that a year later, after I've talked about the stuff a bunch of times, it's so much more succinct.

[1555] But that's life.

[1556] You know, at some point you got to pull the trigger.

[1557] Well, I don't know what you think, but for me, YouTube is, that's why I'm sad that Joe left YouTube.

[1558] There's a archival nature to YouTube.

[1559] It's kind of magical, and so I'm really glad you're now, you're, you, you're, uh, doing a lot of educational content on Instagram before, but now I'm doing this podcast thing on YouTube, it's like, uh, it's, you know, it's like Feynman lectures, like, I'm not saying every podcast, right, but there will be, there, you will have some podcast, I could already tell.

[1560] There'll be some lectures, which are like definitive, like, really special ones.

[1561] That's the hope.

[1562] And there's some aspect that's archival to YouTube where, at least I hope, like 20 years from now, some kid is going to watch a lecture of yours and, you know, it'll create the next Nobel Prize, right?

[1563] It'll create another, you know, a dream that then becomes a reality.

[1564] And that's a special thing that YouTube provides.

[1565] So I'm really excited that you're on YouTube.

[1566] and at the same time, I'm excited to see where this thing goes because it seems like change is the cliched thing.

[1567] The change is the only constant in these times because you're paving with this podcast, with this creativity, what you were doing on Instagram as well, you're paving the new era of what it means to do science.

[1568] So actively doing research and actively explaining that research in new media.

[1569] It's very interesting.

[1570] I was inspired and genuinely inspired by you.

[1571] We had this discussion last time after the podcast recording, and it was, it's clear that communication of science cannot be left to the existing institutions.

[1572] And I'm going to talk about universities.

[1573] I just mean that the science section of newspapers is, sometimes there's some gems there, but generally it goes, you know, and I think you really have to know a field in order to extract the best things from that field.

[1574] And my hope is that other practicing scientists and people finishing their Ph .D. and postdoc and people who are running labs or working at companies will start to do this.

[1575] I mean, how amazing would it be, for instance, if someone at Neurrelink was giving us hints about not necessarily what they're developing, because that's complicated for all sorts of reasons, but would talk to us about what the real challenges of building futuristic brain machine interface are like and what the what it means to understand a clinical problem and address it.

[1576] I mean, my hope is somebody there might eventually do that, that somebody in the world of chemistry or synthetic materials or whatever it is will do this in a way that I could understand because I don't have expertise in those.

[1577] I think it would be marvelous and you were tip of the spear.

[1578] You were out first and I'm just happily trying to move on.

[1579] along in the direction I'm going.

[1580] But I think the future of science education is online.

[1581] And I think that's going to be scary to a lot of existing institutions.

[1582] But it's not about disrupting anything.

[1583] It's just about trying to do things better.

[1584] Yeah.

[1585] You know, some of the best interviews, some of the best investigative journalism is done by people inside the field.

[1586] Comes to mind a guy by the name of Elon Musk, who I love the possibility.

[1587] that he gets the Pulitzer for that interview.

[1588] But he grilled the crap out of Vlad, the CEO of Robin Hood.

[1589] I'm not sure if you're familiar.

[1590] Oh, on Clubhouse.

[1591] On Clubhouse the other night.

[1592] Yeah, I saw you guys in there.

[1593] I was kept out.

[1594] I wasn't quick enough.

[1595] My thumb is done to go fast enough, and I wasn't about to sit in the waiting room.

[1596] Have you tried that social network, by the way, the Clubhouse?

[1597] I've gone in there a few times and check some things out.

[1598] I have a few questions about it that, like, if I'm in there, how one can participate or not participate.

[1599] I like being a fly on the wall for those conversations.

[1600] I've been very curious as to what's going on in there.

[1601] Oh, it's quite, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts.

[1602] Maybe it's useful to comment.

[1603] I also have a Discord server that has a few tens of thousands of people on it, and then they have also a voice chat capability.

[1604] So they have these get -togethers.

[1605] And I was using it in the spring and summer, like actively on those voice discussions, and it's anywhere from 10 to like a thousand people all together in voice.

[1606] Like anyone can speak anytime, right?

[1607] But there's this weird dynamic that people stay quiet and only one person speaks at a time.

[1608] Because they're all, like, respectful.

[1609] And it's a community of, like, fundamentally respectful people, even though they're all anonymous.

[1610] So, like, except like me and a few.

[1611] few others, it's all anonymous people.

[1612] So interesting.

[1613] And it works.

[1614] But the magical thing to me about that community was how intimate voice -only communication can be.

[1615] It felt as intimate as like a small get -together at a home with close friends.

[1616] It felt like there's a calmness to it and you're revealing things about, you know, somebody's suffering from depression or being suicidal.

[1617] So those are the dark things or being super excited, getting a new girlfriend or boyfriend.

[1618] Like, just the depth of human experience shared on voice without video is, I was really surprised how intimate that is for human connection, especially in this time of COVID to replace that.

[1619] So that, so just to give you some context, there's something there.

[1620] there's definitely something there one thing that comes to mind is when like in clubhouse you have your little icon so they don't actually you don't see your face moving i think when people see their own image it puts them in a state of self -consciousness that is eliminated by just having an icon or an avatar yes right so like zoom is dreadful because if i'm not used to talking to people and seeing a little image of myself staring back at me in the mirror and it's just i know there are ways that you can adjust that but it's really awful.

[1621] And I think that when I get on Zooms now, I say hello, and then I shut down the video component, and then I just talk in the end.

[1622] I come back on just a show that's still there, still me. But I think that voice only is really interesting.

[1623] Eddie Chang would be an interesting person to talk to about this because he understands so much about how inflection communicates emotionality and deeper state.

[1624] There's a balance between, I think, just like you said, is that the privacy somehow allows for the intimacy.

[1625] So like being able to, as opposed to putting on an act, which I realize we do when we're visually presenting ourselves in remote communication.

[1626] But I think that there's so few places where people can actually communicate without the fear of penalty.

[1627] Yes.

[1628] That's, you know, woefully absent these days.

[1629] And so maybe people are just relieved to be in a place where they feel like I can say what I want or not say anything, and it's okay.

[1630] And so Clubhouse, to answer your kind of question, is there was a big improvement to me over Discord, which is it has tears.

[1631] It has a stage where people, the person that created the room can invite people up that would like to speak potentially, have the opportunity to speak.

[1632] And then there's a bigger audience that don't get a chance to speak unless they click, raise their hand, and they get called on.

[1633] So there's like a tier.

[1634] system that allows for there to be a group of like 5, 10, 20, 30 people talking and a lot larger amount in the audience, which in Discord was the problem was that everybody could talk.

[1635] And the other thing about Clubhouse is everybody is strongly encouraged to represent themselves.

[1636] So you're using your real name.

[1637] It's not anonymous.

[1638] How many people were in that GameStop discussion the other day?

[1639] They currently limit rooms to 5 ,000.

[1640] So I'm sure maxed out of 5 ,000.

[1641] There's a lot of overflow rooms.

[1642] This is the cool thing about Clubhouse.

[1643] Really big people were on there all tuned in and having a conversation, having all these different worlds being able to connect.

[1644] Even though without the niceties of like arranging the meeting, you could just show up and leave, which is really nice.

[1645] But the reason I'm, for my lessons from Discord, I'm going to mostly stay away from Kohlhouse.

[1646] And I think, or going there under another name.

[1647] Right.

[1648] I'll pretend I know your actual name on.

[1649] Yeah.

[1650] It's, I've learned, it's quite addicting.

[1651] It's a time sync.

[1652] It's so, the intimacy of it is, you find yourself wasting quite a bit of time on there.

[1653] It pulls you in.

[1654] Well, it's interesting, the, we're sort of going back to the podcast or earlier we're talking about books or creating a technology.

[1655] One thing that's absolutely clear is that anything that's easy to reproduce is probably not worth much effort and time.

[1656] Yes.

[1657] Right?

[1658] I mean, most posts could be easily reproduced.

[1659] You just repost them.

[1660] Yeah.

[1661] So now there are some original posts for which the attribution goes to the, original person.

[1662] It's clear it came from you.

[1663] But anything that can be easily reproduced is doesn't really expand us very much as individuals or as groups.

[1664] And most of what I see on social media is stuff that is purely reproduced.

[1665] But I think Clubhouse, I mean, it could be that some real magic emerges on there.

[1666] So in moderation it could be good.

[1667] The magic is, this is another thing that I've found through COVID that maybe you can think about.

[1668] is live.

[1669] I used to be not understand the appeal of live video or live connection or like in this clubhouse live events because clubhouse is technically for the most part.

[1670] It's not supposed to be recorded.

[1671] Most people don't record most conversations.

[1672] It's a one -time live event.

[1673] And there's a magic to that.

[1674] There is.

[1675] That's not captured by a like your podcast or my podcast, produced video that's like recorded like packaged up well anything can happen it's that anything can happen and those that's the kind of thing like live concerts i definitely i love live music and it's the idea that because you can always listen to the album actually the album usually sounds cleaner and better but it's just this idea that anything can happen and then you listen to like the parts i don't know you uh like castella did something weird uh your dog did something weird and then you have to go God damn it.

[1676] You have to go to the kitchen or something to get something and then you come back.

[1677] And it's funny, I watch a lot of video like that of people and I'll be there for the whole time.

[1678] I'll wait for them to go to the kitchen and come back.

[1679] It's not like I tune out.

[1680] And that makes it like a richer experience for some reason.

[1681] It's weird.

[1682] Well, it humanizes it.

[1683] Yeah, humanizes it.

[1684] And I think there is this weird effect of whether or not it's a podcast, Instagram, or Twitter or anything else.

[1685] There is kind of like two people shouting into a tunnel and then a bunch of people with ears at the other.

[1686] end of those tunnels and shouting some things back.

[1687] You know, that's kind of the format we're in.

[1688] I think I'll check out Clubhouse again.

[1689] I've gone in there a few times during the day and I was surprised to see how many people were in there in the middle of the day.

[1690] I was like, aren't these people supposed to be working?

[1691] Exactly.

[1692] But maybe that is their work.

[1693] Well, be very careful about the time sync of it.

[1694] But yeah, if you want to, you and I go together.

[1695] We have a conversation on there.

[1696] But one of the things you have to figure out, I don't still know how to do it, but how to exit which is just do that isn't there the leave quietly button yeah no but like when you and i are on stage having a conversation um okay you and i is harder but like uh you really if it's just you and i then it's the usual human communication of like all right i got to go like but when it's like four people you're you don't want to interrupt everyone and else you're leaving you just have to I mean, there's a weird dynamic that I haven't quite figured out of how - The etiquette isn't clear.

[1697] The etiquette is not clear.

[1698] Well, the etiquette on different platforms and how that changes is really interesting, you know, how YouTube has one etiquette, which is kind of, it's a lot of harshness is tolerated on YouTube video comments.

[1699] Twitter seems a bit harsher than Instagram.

[1700] Instagram, there's kind of, it seems to be a little.

[1701] People are nice.

[1702] People are really nice on Instagram for the most part.

[1703] except for those fishing things.

[1704] I actually know someone who had their quite sizable account poached by those copyright.

[1705] They come in with those like, you violated copyright things.

[1706] There's all sorts of harshness in there that if you think about it in the real world, I like to think about Instagram as if it was the real world.

[1707] Someone that comes over and is basically saying like, hey, can I hold your wallet and go into the bank and I'll get some money out for you?

[1708] But there's this trust based on the format it comes in that it can almost get past your radar unless you're suspicious.

[1709] if if you took comments like you know your post -scale lot of comments and you said you just walk past 500 random people on the street and just listen to what they say it's me like that's ridiculous i don't have time for that yeah but the comments somehow take on this importance and this relevance yes and you feel we we feel obligated to give them value right and so the online communities the rules really are different yeah um and they evolve with town which is fascinating with clubhouse It's a new social network, so it's evolving, and people are figuring out as you go.

[1710] And the same thing with podcasting on video and, like, scientific podcasting.

[1711] This is the cool thing when I look at what you've created, I'm learning.

[1712] I'm thinking like, hmm, that's interesting to do it this way.

[1713] Because, like, nobody, I have nobody to copy.

[1714] Not many people to copy, you know what I mean?

[1715] Well, you threw out an idea.

[1716] I'm not going to put it out here now because I don't want to, because knowing you, you'll hold yourself to it no matter what.

[1717] But when we talked about this issue of the challenge of staying on a particular topic for a while, I mean, you do have some cool stuff brewing in there.

[1718] that's separate from this format.

[1719] And I love your interview format.

[1720] But when you told me about that, I got really excited that you might go forward.

[1721] I'm not going to tell your audience what it is.

[1722] But I will say this, it is super cool.

[1723] I would have never thought about it.

[1724] It's distinctly different than what I'm doing or what Lex is currently doing.

[1725] And if you decide to do that podcast, I will be your first and your number one fan.

[1726] And I know there are going to be millions of other people interested in that.

[1727] It would be amazing.

[1728] So if you decide to go forward with you, idea that would be awesome i was going to say what it is but now i'm not going to because that's even more interesting uh i brought up the the clubhouse thing actually in elon um because i just wanted to uh get your thoughts about something he's said a few times to me to me and in general is that he's under a huge amount of stress and i'm thinking of doing a startup now and kind of thinking about all of this because I you know I enjoy podcasts I enjoy science but he says that his life is basically hell it's very difficult that he looks happy but he's probably very good at he's fulfilled he's fulfilled but the stress levels the constant fires that he has to put out and he says that most people wouldn't want to be me and that basically the reason he does what he does is because there's probably something wrong with him.

[1729] Like it's not he can't help it but do that.

[1730] It's kind of beautiful in a kind of Russian masochistic way.

[1731] Well, I just wonder the stress, I mean, I'm sure you can imagine the kind of stress he's under because, so it's running three plus companies and there's constant like he says that, you know, Every single meeting is not about like should we install a coffee maker in the kitchen.

[1732] It's like, you know, this rocket is going to blow up and we're all fucked.

[1733] I don't know what to do.

[1734] And we have to, you have to fix, you have to fix real, like, big problems that are.

[1735] And like, how do you deal with that?

[1736] What do you think about that kind of life?

[1737] One, is there a way to, you know, walk through that fire?

[1738] and two, should you walk through that fire?

[1739] Well, I mean, without knowing, I've never met Elon, but certainly we have common friends in you and in other people that he worked with long ago, the PayPal days, all of whom speak very highly of him and express immense admiration for the number of things that he can maintain.

[1740] I think it's fair to say that he accomplishes more before 9 a .m. than most people do in a decade, it's clear, and that what he does would dissolve most people into a puddle of tears.

[1741] Mostly because of this whole thing about the brain working hard equates to thinking about duration path and outcome and anticipating outcomes given A, B, C, or D, a lot of very scripted linear thinking and prediction.

[1742] And that is hard.

[1743] It's stressful.

[1744] It requires intense neurochemical output.

[1745] And he's doing that for multiple projects.

[1746] So presumably he's buffered himself from the coffee maker issues and the little tiny issues.

[1747] But he is himself, unless there's something I don't know, he's walking around in a biological system.

[1748] He is.

[1749] That's allegedly, yes.

[1750] Yeah, allegedly.

[1751] So, and I don't want to reveal too much here, but I have a common a coworker and colleague through some contract work I do that what I can tell you is that he's accessing the best resources in terms of how to optimize his biology and he's thinking about that not just for himself but for all of NeuralLink because I think I'm not trying to dodge the question but I think there's the scale of the individual but then there's the companies that he's creating and you've got people there that you could imagine if they're working at 10 % better capacity or can focus 5 % better for 20 % of the day, you're looking at an enormous increase in productivity and a reduction in the time to reach goals, which will reduce the amount of stress, presumably on Elon, unless he goes and starts another endeavor.

[1752] So I think it's certainly not healthy for most people.

[1753] It seems to be where he gets his dopamine hits.

[1754] I'm also really struck by the fact that he has a family and he has, you know, he's got kids growing up in a relationship and all that.

[1755] So it's super impressive.

[1756] I think that I don't know, how old is Elon?

[1757] I'm pushing 50.

[1758] I think 48.

[1759] So even more impressive.

[1760] Because many people who've been at exceedingly high output for a decade or more don't do well.

[1761] Their system breaks down.

[1762] Well, this is what he was saying.

[1763] He actually, I mean, I don't listen to all of his interviews but on that live on the clubhouse he mentioned that he was kind of worried it's interesting he was worried that like sometimes what I think he said is I'm worried that some at some point my brain is just going to fail because of the amount of load it's under like how much I have to think through throughout the day like how many like problems you have to think through like you know it's like puzzles it's constant puzzle solving i would be concerned about taking somebody who's in that regime and suddenly putting them into a regime where they don't have enough to bite down into it's like my bulldog costello he's happiest when chewing and tugging that big old neck of his and he is just not going to become a retriever he's not going to that he does well and gets his dopamine hits from chewing and pulling and it it seems like elon is that ended up where he is by way of his natural leanings.

[1764] Unless there's a backstory that's trauma -based or something and I don't even begin to think that there is, it seems that he has, he's one of those rare individuals in history that has an immense drive to create in all these different domains.

[1765] I'm just saying the obvious here, but it seems like that's what makes him tick.

[1766] I mean, you're doing an awful lot too.

[1767] Well, but the problem is not really, the problem is about, I've been on the verge of pulling the trigger on starting a company, which will increase the workload significantly.

[1768] And I'm attracted to that because of a dream I have, but it's a little bit scary because it can destroy you in a lot of ways.

[1769] there's two sources of destruction.

[1770] So one source is, for the first time in my life, a few months ago, I think, have gotten, it feels like such a noob thing to say it, but I've gotten some hate on the internet.

[1771] No. I know, right?

[1772] No. But, like, I'm such an idiot.

[1773] I'm so naive to, it was, I had the question that I guess, a lot of people have when they get hate on the internet.

[1774] It's like, it's like, mom, why are these people making up stuff about me?

[1775] You know, that kind of feeling of like, why are you saying that?

[1776] And the reason I mention that is like, well, if you want to go and start a business and do, as I think people should when they start a big, ambitious business, really try to go big.

[1777] like, what does success look like in terms of your emotional journey?

[1778] You're going to have a lot of people who make up stuff about you, who say negative things.

[1779] I mean, majority, hopefully, if you do a good job, will be supportive, but there's still going to be this army of people.

[1780] And, like, that was scary to me because of how much emotional impact they had on me. Well, and I also know a little bit, I have some glimpse into the fact that you put your heart and soul into everything you do right you're not a you're lighthearted about certain things but you're even lighthearted about being full gas pedal 24 -7 there's kind of this you know uh was it um was it laird hamilton always says you know the big wave surfers uh he always says you know um bright light dark shadow you know and uh i think it's that intensity and when you do that and then suddenly people are starting to like throw some paint on your picture.

[1781] You're like, wait, hold, you know, you're going max capacity.

[1782] But I think the company is an interesting one because you've talked about doing this company before.

[1783] I've been afraid.

[1784] I've just not been pulling the trigger out of fear because I enjoy this life.

[1785] This is, it's starting to interrupt.

[1786] It's ultimately this question of taking a leap is like, say you're in academia, like you're at MIT, I really love doing research at MIT.

[1787] I really love that life.

[1788] Why take a leap out?

[1789] But I did because it's been a dream.

[1790] But now accidentally along the way, I found this podcasting thing, which is also really fulfilling.

[1791] And it's like, why take a leap?

[1792] Because you have a huge lust for life.

[1793] Yeah.

[1794] I mean, that's you.

[1795] I mean, sometimes when I'm on the internet, and I think, is this, you know, you hear about, like, oh, it's addicting, you know, YouTube's addicting, all that.

[1796] Actually, sometimes I think maybe that's true, but a lot of times I just think there's so much here.

[1797] There's a lot of garbage, but there's so many gems out there in the world now.

[1798] It's almost like, sure, how you allocate time is key, but I think you can do it all.

[1799] Yeah, maybe not five more things, but all.

[1800] And one thing, I just had this idea, and this is not grounded in any scientific paper, but I think the answer might come to you during this torture that you're about to put yourself through with David.

[1801] Because in those mental states, you're really asking the question, right?

[1802] You're asking the question, where is my capacity?

[1803] And am I even close to my capacity?

[1804] And if I am, what's of the most value?

[1805] I think we find the answers to those things in those nonverbal, non -analytic states.

[1806] It just comes to us.

[1807] I hope you're right.

[1808] and I hope it's a profoundly fulfilling experience as opposed to one that leads to my demise.

[1809] You have a mill, right?

[1810] It all goes to the hedgehog.

[1811] Yeah, exactly, to the hedgehog.

[1812] Now it all makes sense.

[1813] Andrew, like we talked about offline on this podcast, I do hope we write some stuff together, do some research together.

[1814] You're one of the most inspiring scientists, speaking of communicating to the world.

[1815] So I can't wait to see what you do with the podcast.

[1816] I'm already a huge fan.

[1817] I've been telling everybody about it.

[1818] I can't wait to see you talk to Joe as well soon.

[1819] And I can't wait to see what kind of paper we write together.

[1820] Thanks so much for talking to it.

[1821] Thank you.

[1822] That project's going to be a lot of fun.

[1823] Can't wait.

[1824] And thanks again for having me on.

[1825] Appreciate you, brother.

[1826] Thanks for listening to this conversation with Andrew Huberman.

[1827] and thank you to our sponsors, Masterclass Online Courses, 4Sigmatic mushroom coffee, magic spoon, low -carb cereal, and BetterHelp Online Therapy.

[1828] Click the sponsor links to get a discount, and remember, now is the time to sign up to Masterclass if that's something you've been on the fence about.

[1829] And now, let me leave you with some words from Woodrow Wilson.

[1830] We should not only use the brains we have, but all that we can borrow.

[1831] Thank you for listening, and hope to see you.

[1832] next time.