The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] I started to feel anxious.
[1] Or getting followed by a guy, like my mind is panicking.
[2] I actually can't concentrate on driving because I know this person is just trying to follow us.
[3] Strictly finalist, written a book, a West End.
[4] An internet sensation.
[5] Joe's son.
[6] You started at 19, 20 years old.
[7] By 22, you had about 6 million subscribers.
[8] Yeah.
[9] That's fucking nuts.
[10] It was so uncertain about where that was going to go.
[11] The rise, but also the fall, can happen so quick.
[12] That imposter syndrome I already had, got.
[13] amplified anxiety, self -doubt.
[14] The whole thing just didn't feel real.
[15] You met her on strictly.
[16] First real, proper girlfriend, yeah.
[17] The further you go in that competition, the higher the pressure is and the stress gets.
[18] We saw the best and the worst of each other.
[19] I always saw it would be a very private thing.
[20] It's actually ended up being the complete opposite.
[21] Hand on heart, do you think if you had never started YouTube, you'd be happier overall?
[22] Good question.
[23] Um...
[24] So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this This is the diary of a CEO.
[25] I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
[26] Joe.
[27] Hello.
[28] Tell me, what are the most important things that I need to know about you from your early years in order to understand you?
[29] In order to understand the man that you are today.
[30] Man that I'm today.
[31] I was quite a loud child.
[32] I was a loud, annoying child growing up.
[33] When we look back through like family videos, it's quite embarrassing.
[34] to watch, particularly me, because I was the sort of boy that I'd be like, mommy, watch this, watch this, like repeating myself over and ever again, and we're watching it back like, oh, shut up, like you were annoying child.
[35] But then at some point, I flipped, and I don't know when that was, but at some point I flipped and became a very sort of timid, quite a shy child, always very creative, even from an early, early age.
[36] I was a good drawer.
[37] I used to illustrate and draw a lot of pictures at school, which definitely came from, passed down from my parents, mum and dad, both very creative in their own sense.
[38] I went to a very, very small primary school in rural Wiltshire.
[39] I think there's 52 pupils in our whole school.
[40] Going from there to secondary school was a big change for me because that was going from 52 pupils in the whole school to over 1 ,000.
[41] So that was.
[42] was a big, which probably could have a reason why I went from being sort of quite a loud, annoying child to being a lot more sort of, oh, I'm at my depth here.
[43] I'm now a small fish in a big pond.
[44] You were, I read in the book in Chapter 1 of Grow that you were quite self -deprecating at that point.
[45] In secondary school, yeah.
[46] Yeah.
[47] Yeah.
[48] Primary school, I, I feel like primary school i was a i was a lot more confident everyone knew everyone very well and i just felt like a lot more popular then and then yeah moving to secondary school it was much more like yeah like i said it was it was a very different place um and that's when i first sort of encountered teasing and bullying and stuff and i wasn't necessarily like bullied i would but it was more like if there was ever like teasing going on or or things that they were trying to sort of dig, I very quickly sort of realized if I'm already sort of poking fun at myself, they will get bored of trying to poke fun at me. So there's less chance of that happenings.
[49] At that age in secondary school, would you consider yourself to be a confident child?
[50] No, no. Do you know what?
[51] Silently confident.
[52] Like in my head, I've always been the sort of person where I can, I know what I'm capable of.
[53] And I know that I think, you know, I know that I'm, I can do certain things to a good standard and I know that I can be a good student and all this kind of stuff.
[54] But on the outside, not as confident at all.
[55] So with work and stuff, I was very confident.
[56] I was confident that I'd be able to get the grades and do well in school and things like that.
[57] But it's the more the sort of social side of it, I found that a lot more difficult.
[58] Well, if I'd asked you at that age, what you wanted to be when you grew up, what would you what would you tell me say like 16ish 16 i wanted to be i wanted to work in media but i wanted to be more go more down the route of um animation my goal as a kid initially first of all it was an archaeologist of course i wanted to be in down jones and then uh secondary school um i wanted to work for ardman i wanted to be an animator like model builder um or just i think i've got i've got a lot of patience and uh if you know animation like, oh, how long it took to make Chicken Run or Wallace and Gromit, those films take a long time to make.
[59] So I wanted to, yeah, I felt like I'd be good to do that.
[60] I wanted to work for Hartman.
[61] Your grades at A level were really good.
[62] Yeah.
[63] Which was surprising, because then, you know, most people with those kind of grades that get A's and stuff would then go off to university.
[64] Yeah.
[65] You chose not to.
[66] No, yeah.
[67] So we did work experience.
[68] I don't know if you did the same.
[69] Like when you turned 16.
[70] you have to get to a dentist did you yeah i feel asleep every day so i um i i decided to go roof thatching with my uncle so my uncle is a roof thatcher which is a uh a very old traditional craft that they don't really teach anymore it's very like kind of there's no classes you can go and take and you can't study for it you've got to actually go on the job and work on the job and you learn that when the master thatcher thinks you're ready you then go from being a apprentice to Master Thatcher.
[71] And my school, I remember my school advised that I didn't do it, but I went and did it anyway.
[72] Shouldn't have done, sorry.
[73] But I, I, so I went and did that.
[74] And then, um, I absolutely loved it.
[75] I, and it was, I was outside.
[76] I think what it was, is I was outside.
[77] It was, it was, it was tough.
[78] I wasn't really, I was lifting a lot of straw and moving things and sweeping up, but I was, but I absolutely loved it.
[79] Is there's something about, like, when we finished a roof, we'd look at what we've done and it's just, that feeling, I want to bottle that up and be like, that's what I want for the rest of my life.
[80] So I decided that I wanted to be a Ruth Thatcher for the rest of my life.
[81] I'm the sort of, I'm very kind of, I'm very bad at making my mind up on things as well.
[82] There's a lot going on.
[83] I'm very bad at making my mind up on stuff.
[84] So I was like, what if it doesn't work out later on down the line?
[85] I need to have A levels.
[86] So if I, if this doesn't go to plan or, you know, after a while I don't like it, I can at least then try out university and go back to trying to work for something in the media or arden or something so but i didn't i'd sort of i i always like the idea of having safety nets underneath me so if something if something doesn't go to plan it's all right you've always got that safety net of and that's kind of like in a way what roof thatching became because i started doing youtube as a hobby off the back of the thatching did it at my spare time and that started to take off and and and become a full -time career but then i was in a way safe going into that because i was like if it all doesn't pan out because this is going back to when youtube wasn't really a career as well so it was it was so uncertain about where that was going to go by always felt very like secure in the fact that i knew that if it didn't pan out i try it for a year if doesn't work i can go back to a job that i genuinely really really love so yeah the two the two ideas that that almost in sort of collision there was this idea that you are very self -confident in your abilities and that you've always needed a plan B. Yeah.
[87] I was trying to make them make sense as two kind of separate ideas because one of them sounded a bit like self -doubt, this idea that sometimes there's a struggle to make a definitive decision and that there's a need for a plan B. Are you someone that has self -doubt at the same time?
[88] Because I think it's possible to understand your talents but also have doubt in the future and how things will plan out.
[89] Yeah.
[90] I'm the sort of person where I think of the best case scenario.
[91] So like I have those, like I've got a very vivid imagination.
[92] So with everything I go into, I always think of the best possible outcome, which then gives me that sort of self -confidence.
[93] But then I also have Mr. Self -Doubt on the other side who finds the worst case scenario.
[94] And then they have a battle in my head of how I should think.
[95] And I think that's where the indecision comes from with a lot of stuff.
[96] I live with it.
[97] I'm glad I've kind of got it because without, like, I would, I wouldn't want to always have the self -doubt there.
[98] And I also wouldn't ever always want to have the self -confidence there.
[99] Because I think that would make me a completely different person, maybe a person that I don't like either.
[100] So I don't know.
[101] There's, there's, um, yeah, I have, I have both.
[102] That's the thing with, um, with the self -doubt.
[103] If it's just a little bit too high.
[104] And I learned this actually from a guest on this podcast called Nia Rial.
[105] He, um, his, he's, he, he, he's, he, he, he, he's, he, he, he, he, he's, he, he, he, he, he, he's, he, he wrote a book on why we get distracted and ultimately like why we procrastinate on things and he says procrastination is the result of us trying to avoid a task or thing that's that we have psychological discomfort associated with yeah so when you're like you know you've got the essay to do you'll end up doing the washing up because that's the task you're competent in and whereas with the essay you know there's loads of research to do you're not necessarily you don't feel comfortable starting yet there's something missing so there's mental psychological discomfort so you just go do the dishes yeah and i think self -doubt is one of the things that leads us to have that psychological called discomfort where we just kind of delay it and wait for that perfect time or go do the dishes.
[106] I have that all the time.
[107] I always say it's because I'm creative.
[108] It's because I'm creative.
[109] It's like I get scared.
[110] I don't know it's the right word, but I, yeah, I put it off.
[111] Like if I know I've got something I want to do that's, that is creative and requires a lot of sort of sitting around thinking beforehand and then putting pen to paper or, or anything that's going to involve the creative process.
[112] I delay it.
[113] And I, I think, it's a thing of like what if I start doing it and instantly I don't like it and I'm like ah this is not how I imagine because you sort of in your mind you have this version of it's all going to come flowing out of the pen or you're going to start filming um something and it's always going to go perfect plan and it doesn't very very often does it all just completely flow um and I think that that kind of puts a block in I'm always like if I'm going to do it I need to make sure everything's prepared beforehand but it's very interesting a lot of the time is what we say to ourselves that we're the reason I'm not starting it or the reason I have that procrastination is because I'm a perfectionist.
[114] I've really what you know everyone loves that because it's a nice way of framing yourself as being as having really really really high standards and being honestly it's kind of like saying I'm the reason I've not started it yet or the reason I struggle is because I'm amazing yeah it's almost like saying that when really a lot of the time it's probably self -doubt and that psychological discomfort associated with you don't feel fully competent or like you could fully nail it and you're trying to avoid the mess, which we all encounter as we do anything.
[115] Yeah, I think it's like, it's kind of like that.
[116] I think it's from that part of my brain that's like seeing the best possible outcome.
[117] So like, let's say, for example, I'm doing a painting in my head, I'll have that thing of like almost going ahead because of my imagination, I see it finished.
[118] And I'm like, this is, it's going to be amazing.
[119] It's going to, you know, I'm going to post it online and people are going to love it and things like that.
[120] But then I, start and it doesn't quite go.
[121] I'm like, oh, actually this is, in my mind, I've gone for this process of like doing it over and over again and getting it to how I want it to go.
[122] And then I start doing it.
[123] It's not going how I imagined it.
[124] And that sort of scares me a bit.
[125] And that's why I think I put things off more from that kind of side.
[126] Unfinished paintings.
[127] Yeah, a lot of them.
[128] Too many of them.
[129] What have you learned about?
[130] Is there anything that you've learned or anything that's helped you get past that initial hesitancy of procrastination or, Because, you know, reading through your story and even speaking to you today, even before we start recording, I was like, God, this guy's got so many ideas.
[131] I was going to say, yeah, that is something that I've struggled with, especially nowadays where, like, going into things like business, like starting businesses and stuff, I feel like from what I've seen, very rarely, do you see people that are doing so many different things?
[132] And it is that thing of, like, I'm a plate spinner.
[133] Like, I love spinning plates of different things and trying to.
[134] trying to keep up with these spinning plates.
[135] And I take time to sort of sit back and look at these things and think, when are you going to sit on one thing and actually just do that thing and devote you?
[136] Because you see, like, you look throughout history of like artists and people who have devoted their whole life to sculpting, do I mean?
[137] And I sort of tell myself, I'm not going to achieve anything sort of near that if I don't dedicate my whole life to one thing.
[138] But for me, I just find it so difficult because I'm like, I've got a limited time.
[139] and I want to dip my toe into everything.
[140] And it's weird because I feel like I use this analogy and I don't know if it's a great analogy or not, but with the YouTube sort of career that I've had over the last 10 years, that is something that I did sort of double down on and really focus all my energy on at one point.
[141] But then it became a point of branching it out and doing different things, just as a form of like stability as well because we didn't know, we still like back in those days, we didn't know how I'm going to last for.
[142] So we did sort of branch out into different things.
[143] I think I just got a bit carried away with the branching out and just I was like there's so many things to sort of see and try out and do I see like the that YouTube thing of like catching a like going out to sea and catching a wave and caught that wave in and it was incredible it was a it was a record breaking wave it was a major wave kind of thing and you know and now I feel like I'm sort of I'm back out on my board again and I'm padding around I've caught a few little waves but that they've not been like another, you know, ripper of a wave like, like the YouTube one was yet.
[144] But I'm sort of like, I know that there's more big waves out there, but it's just kind of like knowing which wave you start paddling.
[145] You know like how surfers sort of start to paddle out, trying to catch him and you watch them, they sort of get it and then doesn't go.
[146] And it's like I feel like at the moment I'm sort of paddling out and sort of waiting for that sort of next big wave.
[147] in a sense?
[148] Why do you need a next big wave?
[149] Good point.
[150] I should just stay on the beach.
[151] I think that's actually what my therapist.
[152] I have a therapist I speak to.
[153] I used that analogy with her and she said, but it's the exact same thing.
[154] Why do you need to catch the next big wave?
[155] Why not stay on the beach?
[156] You don't need to go out and constantly catch big waves.
[157] I was thinking this because you said earlier.
[158] I mean, the question I was going to ask before you talked about the wave analogy was kind of similar, which is, you're happy, spinning multiple plates and trying lots of things and sculpting for the joy of sculpting, it seems like, and this is, I'm guilty of this in the biggest way, it seems like there's this other narrative which is saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, forget what you love doing, focus because success is the most important thing.
[159] Yeah.
[160] And when I say success, I mean like accomplishment.
[161] Yeah.
[162] Because real success probably is actually being happy.
[163] Yeah.
[164] And you're happy.
[165] Like, but, but it's almost, it's almost like we deny ourselves of happiness because there's not a gold medal there or there's not a gazillion followers there yeah but you're enjoying sculpting yeah for the sake of sculpting it's like it's like a punishment of yourself like I um it in a way I yeah it's kind of like a form of like Joe you know you love doing this and this makes you genuinely happy so why don't you just do it you know I mean and if if you love it that much and you stick out it and do it then good things may come from it but it's not going to happen straight away and it's like it's almost like I get into a thing of like I like to sort of the things that I know I love doing, I put aside, and I focus on the things that, that maybe I don't love as much or not as passionate about as much, but I'll sort of almost put that before the little things that make me really happy.
[166] It's bizarre.
[167] I've no idea.
[168] No idea.
[169] I've tried to, I've tried to, like, think about it a lot, and it's, it's weird that it comes from, I don't know where, where it comes from.
[170] Because, are you saying because those things you could be, although you might not love them as much, you might be able to be successful in the eyes of the world in them, or...
[171] I think it's because I've got that thing in me that's looking for instant success and stuff, which is weird.
[172] And maybe that's because of, like, before on YouTube and stuff, there was a time where, you know, we were, I say we, like, might speak for myself, but, like, me and a lot of the people around at the similar to time on that sort of wave that we were on, we all um everything we sort of would go into almost became an instant success in a way it was like yeah i think because we like back then i felt like it was it was so much bigger anything you sort of went into you you know it did end up sort of getting attention and doing really well and and things whereas now maybe not so much and i think that's kind of we signed some youtubeers back in those days so maybe not because you were you were very very uh but in 2013 -14, we signed a bunch of YouTubers.
[173] And still to this day, none of them were near the size of you and that sort of British cohort of like YouTube megastars.
[174] But still to this day, and they must have been 18, 19, 20 years old.
[175] I still think it ruined their lives.
[176] Yeah.
[177] Because I watched an 18 -year -old, 19 -year -old kid who had started a YouTube channel, got to 200 ,000, 300 ,000 subscribers when there was no video, that was the only shop in town for video.
[178] Yeah, yeah.
[179] Facebook video and Instagram and stuff.
[180] snap and Twitter video.
[181] So that was where as brands, we were just pumping all the money into these YouTubers.
[182] Yeah.
[183] I watched those kids turn down 15 grand to show up to a fucking movie premiere.
[184] Yeah.
[185] Or to just show face.
[186] When that, when that wave comes into shore and hits the beach and it's over.
[187] Yeah.
[188] I don't, I don't, those kids are in a psychological trap almost with their own personal expectations of the world.
[189] And I, and I, and I really worry about that because success has often is, can be a curse because of because of the way, it messes with our own personal expectations of ourselves and of the world.
[190] Yeah.
[191] And in some respects, that sounds like what you're saying.
[192] Your expectations, back then, everything you guys touched did turn to gold.
[193] Yeah.
[194] Now you're saying it's a little bit more difficult.
[195] Yeah.
[196] Yeah.
[197] No. Do you want, does any of that resonate with you?
[198] 100%.
[199] Yeah.
[200] I think that's a big part of why, um, myself and Caspo is also a YouTuber.
[201] We started a management company because in the future there's going to be kids.
[202] I mean, we were even seeing it then, like young kids that were shooting to fame overnight.
[203] but even I think nowadays with other social medias it happens even quicker like the rise but also the fall can happen so quick and I was like for me and Casper we were like we want to make a management company a big role of what we have in that is being in a way kind of mentors when needed to to for any questions they have or anything that any concerns they have about that kind of thing we can sort of give it's I kind of use it as like a I guess like the you know like um the hunger games that guy who's like sat on the train who sort of takes her through it and be like this is going to happen I guess like a very different version of yeah like a mentor kind of role and that for me is like one of the best things that I do at the moment is having that sort of one on one with our own clients and sort of if they've got any sort of issues being able to actually offer advice and see it make a change I'm Joe at 19 and you're Joe at 30 right what do you say?
[204] to me. I'm about to embark, as you were, I'm about, I'm thinking about uploading that first video.
[205] Yeah.
[206] What advice would you give me?
[207] I would say if you want it to get to that level, you can do it.
[208] If you put in the sort of the consistency and you're, you're making stuff that is going to get seen and stuff, but just be prepared for, there's other sides of it that aren't, aren't all bells and whistles and that kind of thing.
[209] There's, there's going to be obstacles.
[210] There's going to be things that, that you're going to need advice on.
[211] And we're going to be here to help and hold your hand through that if you needed.
[212] What are the things aren't going to run?
[213] Press, negative press.
[214] You know, haters, you're going to get trolls.
[215] That's the bigger audience size, the more issues it brings in terms of the more eyes that are on you, the more people that watch your stuff that may not like what you do.
[216] And then they've got a thing out against you, and there's a lot.
[217] What's the mental cost?
[218] I would say that if you're me, it's still worth it.
[219] It's still, don't ever regret doing it.
[220] It's still worth it.
[221] Like you, of course, there's as negatives, but the positives that you've gained out of it or you will gain out of it in everything outweighs a negative.
[222] And don't get, don't get bogged down by the negatives because there's more positive.
[223] You know there's more positive.
[224] more positives and negatives.
[225] The negatives don't matter as much as you think they're going to matter at the time.
[226] At the time when you experience these negatives and these things that, you know, don't go your way or that's going to happen.
[227] But don't let it, don't dwell on it.
[228] Don't let it consume you because there's positives beyond that.
[229] And you'll look back and you won't regret it.
[230] What is the worst thing that's going to happen to me?
[231] The worst thing that's going to happen to you over the next 10 years.
[232] So I'm 19 years old.
[233] you know how it all plays out yeah overthinking overthinking and worrying about what other people how they perceive you what cost is that going to have um a few sleepless nights uh a lot of anxiety self -doubt i'm guessing at 19 years old joe didn't know what anxiety was no no what is it it's a feeling of claustophobia feeling a bit trapped um do you remember do you remember days through that period i mean you talked a little bit in the book about i think 2015 or so a couple of years in i mean so you you said earlier you started at 19 20 years old by 22 am i correct to say that you had about six million subscribers possibly yeah that's fucking it's it yeah it happened really quick i was very fortunate that my uh my sister zoe sort of um and alfi actually um her partner they they really encourage me to do it.
[234] Before YouTube, we used to buy blank set tapes and make our own radio shows or I guess by podcast back in the day.
[235] As like kids, we were always taking our parents camcorder and recording shows.
[236] And Zoe was very much like the leader in that.
[237] She was very much sort of the director, let's say.
[238] And I was always the sort of, I just did what she told me to.
[239] Like I was the little brother that would just go along with it and that kind of thing.
[240] And so when YouTube came around, she started to get a bit of success from it.
[241] And she was like, you should give us a go because it's the kind of stuff that we were doing as kids or have done.
[242] We're kind of like, it's not that far off from what we used to do.
[243] But, you know, there's an audience that can watch you from around the world.
[244] And so, yeah, so I gave it a go.
[245] And I think back then the success of like the, some of the stuff we'd film back then, wouldn't it be like a drop in the ocean now in terms of like how big, social media's got and YouTube and stuff, our stuff wouldn't be watched nowadays.
[246] It was like we were very much kind of hit it at the right time.
[247] And yeah, so I started and it just sort of snowballed and it snowballed really quickly.
[248] I remember there's a time where I was still thatching on a roof five days of the week and then I had an email come through asking if I'd go to fly out to Los Angeles to interview Simon Cowell.
[249] and yeah I flew out there and it was all first I'm ever experiencing a business class flight I still had like straw in my shoes from like being on the roof and like hadn't showered like just Groy Thatcher getting on this plane like a chauffeur driven car pulled up to a house and took me off to the Heathrow airport and I went through the there's like a little secret bit where they put these barriers down you have your own like private security kind of thing and you go through and I was like it just blew my mind And I hadn't even got to Los Angeles yet.
[250] First I'm ever flying on my own, like, solo.
[251] And that whole experience was just like, the whole thing just didn't feel real.
[252] It just felt like I was sort of like living like a double life in a way.
[253] Like yesterday I was on a roof, Thatching, and now I'm sat in Simon Cowell's fancy house, sort of talking to them about Skype.
[254] Those experiences, especially when they're, really quick and they go from zero to a hundred people when i sit here with them often talk to me about imposter syndrome yeah because you as you said you're kind of living a double life you're like what the fuck am i doing yeah just draw on my shoe and simon cal then definitely yeah imposter syndrome there's definitely a lot of that going on um and that must result in overthinking and doubt and yeah all those things we talked about and that's another thing actually that i would say to younger jo's but you're going to get this thing called imposter syndrome um you'll learn about later but yeah it'll be there um and i've i've had that even even now to this day like i've even sort of like even now with this podcast like i've listened to this podcast all the time and even on the way here i was a bit nervous because i was like you get like these you know these incredible CEOs on and these people that are so good at talking and i struggle to get a sentence together most of the time and i'm like i even me i feel like there's people on there that I've done such amazing things and I'm like even for me it still gives me that a little bit of imposter syndrome of like there should be other people there's a lot more people that should be sat in this chair rather than me what's the risk of that because you know a lot of people for me the risk is um you end up like avoiding like opportunities and life and stuff because I'm sure there must have been people that we've asked to come on this podcast before that through imposter syndrome said no like they because we do get a lot of people come here and they'll say some of the thing.
[255] I mean, I can think of a few people who literally came here and was like, I don't know why you've asked me to be here.
[256] And that must impact performance.
[257] It must make the whole thing unpleasant.
[258] I mean, at least the lead -up anyway.
[259] Yeah.
[260] Until I'm such a, you know.
[261] It does.
[262] Yeah.
[263] I think like a good example for me is doing strictly or even actually probably more so as waitress in the West End.
[264] So I did a stint on the West End and waitress.
[265] And this was coming off the back of doing strictly.
[266] So my confidence actually it completely changed me in a sense that it gave me such a big boost of confidence which I didn't hadn't had for a long time and so riding on that confidence I agreed to do an audition for Ogie and waitress in the West End and I remember I kept asking sort of my team being like have they asked me because of like strictly or you know will they be honest and like if I'm not good enough will they to tell I don't want to sort of put me in it if I'm actually not good because I'm not to standard that they'd take someone on, do I mean if it's not me?
[267] And they were sort of like, I think you'll, you know, just go along, you'll be, you'll go this kind of stuff.
[268] And I remember even after doing the audition, and they said they really loved it and things like, in my mind, I was still like, but did you though?
[269] Like, are you sure?
[270] Like, are you sure?
[271] And especially like the, the backlash that I kind got from that was was quite like I mean it's it's nothing that sort of worried me too much but there was a lot of like people that was mesh to me being like you you don't deserve this as people that have trained their entire lives in musical theater and they're not going to they didn't get that they won't ever get that opportunity because people like you coming in taking those roles and so I started to have like a massive and that kind of like that imposter syndrome I already had got amplified and I was like maybe I should shouldn't do it and just sort of but then i wonder if there's been any i wonder if there's been any times where people have then turned around and said actually do you know what i don't i don't want this because of what people on social media have said did i mean or give their opinion on um so that was a real sort of that was a definitely a moment that stands out to me of being like i probably shouldn't be here doing this in your in your journey with social media and youtube was there a moment where you go, that was where I really started to see the symptoms of getting burnt out by doing this.
[272] Was there a year or a time where you just thought, fuck, I don't want to, I don't want to open my emails.
[273] I don't want to do.
[274] I don't want to upload.
[275] Yeah, there was, I think around 2016, 17, I think it might be.
[276] I remember it clearly.
[277] It was just a time where there was just a lot going on.
[278] I think YouTube was like massive.
[279] We were, you know, like I think at the time I mean I run at the time I had three YouTube channels that I was trying to all keep up at the same time and this was actually before I had any I was doing it all solo as well so I'd think of the ideas I'd shoot them all edit them obviously distribute it I guess kind of in a way market it by promoting it and putting it out there and trying to get people to watch my stuff but I also had a a book coming out which I was working on we'd also be and Casper did a feature with BBC studios like a sort of like a straight to DVD kind of like film of us sort of travelling around in a camphan so there's like there's a lot of things going on and obviously lots of other different things in the background and it got to a point where I was like my life was a roof thatcher before all this was there was no feeling like this how I'm feeling now it was just I had my so I had such a solid structure like up at this time go to work until this time go back unload the straw let up the van again go and see my nan give her the paper go home go to the gym and then that was it was that was that your life there's been a lot of times throughout my life where I've looked back and thought that was like I think I think it's because that's that structure it does make you feel like it's I was living a more yeah yeah hand on heart do you think if you'd never started YouTube you'd be happier overall over the last 10 years hand on up.
[280] I think I'm more happy the route I've gone down as well.
[281] I think because the thing is I can't I can never sort of as much as you know I've had my struggles online and stuff that actually the online has also been such a big help for me and especially like in terms of like YouTube and the way that I've worked with them and personally and like had support from them has been incredible.
[282] So I'm very fortunate as a creator on YouTube that YouTube has actually given me a lot of support and I've had a good team around me that have given me the support and the friendships and the family that I've had around me although I went through a time where I did struggle a lot and I had that burnout and I had that sort of anxiety and worry and self -doubt and stuff I've had a really good set of people around me that have helped me sort of get past that even with the roof thatching you know I look back on it now because I'm so far down a different path but if I went back to Thatching I'm sure there were times where I'd be up on the roof when it's like sideways rain, wind, freezing cold, thinking like what am I doing up here?
[283] Like, so I think it's all sort of comparative to where you are at certain points in your life.
[284] Did your love for YouTube shift though?
[285] Because obviously you start posting less frequently on your main channel.
[286] Yep.
[287] To the point where it's funny because as someone that's kind of observed of the whole YouTube journey over the years.
[288] There seems to have been this point, which you've literally spoken about, where multiple YouTubers appear to have kind of vanished a little bit.
[289] Yeah.
[290] And then they end up posting a video saying, like almost giving their reason why, saying they're going to come back.
[291] It's another one, a year later, saying they're going to come back and they never come back.
[292] What is going on?
[293] I think, I mean, I have to see, I can't speak for everyone, but for myself personally, I think it's partly because you're my always, audience have all grown up, or the audience I had back then, they've all got older.
[294] They've all, they're all in their sort of, I presume a lot of ones to start watching me when they were 14, 15.
[295] They're all now in their 20s.
[296] They've got their own stuff going on.
[297] And the stuff that I knew how to make back then is not what they want to consume now as content.
[298] It's what I sort of gauge from it.
[299] I have like, I have, I have, I have a guess as well, which is I think very much in line with what you're saying.
[300] I think that the algorithm might have changed a little bit.
[301] Yeah.
[302] And I think that, I think a few things happen when that happens.
[303] So I think as a creator, you get psychologically demotivated.
[304] Yeah.
[305] When you're doing the same work and you're not getting a, basically, you're getting a vote from your audience to say, which sounds like we don't like it.
[306] Yeah.
[307] And then it seemed like that happened all at the same time with that initial sort of YouTube cohort.
[308] And so a lot of them, because they saw declining numbers and whatever they were making, decided to try the formats and other things and go into other places.
[309] I remember back in the day, like YouTube seemed to be.
[310] be much shorter form videos.
[311] Yep.
[312] And now you have a lot of long form stuff, a lot of 55 minute, hour, Gerogen, three hour videos on there.
[313] Yes, there's always like rumors that go around being like, oh, this, if you heard the latest, this is what now, you know, this is what the algorithm wants and stuff.
[314] And I agree with that to a degree, but I also think you've got the people that take it to the extreme sometimes and like, you know, the reason why I'm not doing this is because of this.
[315] And I never want to solely blame it.
[316] I think that's why I don't always blame it on and now.
[317] algorithm.
[318] This might go back to me being the sort of self -doubting kind of imposter syndrome type vibe again of thinking like it's not just because of this mechanical thing that goes on in the background.
[319] It's also because I need to switch things up and change my, you know, who I am online or what I'm doing online.
[320] I need to move.
[321] I need to shift what I'm doing with the times.
[322] And I think that's harder than I thought when I was sort of like, I'm going to change my stuff now, and I think it's more difficult than I thought.
[323] Was there a point where you saw numbers decline, and you thought, where you start to think, wait a minute, this is not how it used to be?
[324] Yeah.
[325] When was that?
[326] It was right before I said yes to doing strictly.
[327] I thought, you know, it'll be fine.
[328] I'll get used to it and try with different content and things.
[329] And I started to post different stuff, and it just wasn't doing, performing as well as it used to.
[330] And I'd always kind of like prepared myself for it.
[331] it like my dad's actually gave me a good piece of advice looking back on it of being like this what you're doing now is great but you know in the future it's only going to get more more people trying to do what you do and there's many people there's always there's always people out there that have new talents and stuff and it's going to it's going to change over time and there's going to be people that come into this that have got you know not saying that yeah there's me people that come into it that have got super talent and stuff that's completely dominate and things in it so unless you've got really got something about you you're going to struggle to keep up because it's just going to get bigger and bigger and I kind of like I look back now I'm like actually a lot of what he said makes sense you know there is you know it's that's the sort of way it's gone how do you define yourself now who are you now like as a from a self -definition point not that that's something I like to do to myself I don't like to self -define.
[332] But if you, if you someone, if someone asks you to write a bio, what'd you say?
[333] It's one of the hardest things for me to answer.
[334] It genuinely is.
[335] If I'm ever asked to sort of sum myself up what I do, I just, I think it's like my Instagram bio is like I, I am creative or something like that.
[336] Because I just, I don't, I find it so hard to sort of pigeonhole myself as this is what I do and this is what I am.
[337] So I'd say like, it's difficult.
[338] I'd just like to say, like, I'm just a creative person.
[339] You wrote a book, Groh, about being outside and in nature.
[340] It seems like a fairly unobvious topic for someone like yourself to write about.
[341] So it was very compelling.
[342] Why did you decide to write about this, about the importance of going outside?
[343] During the lockdown, we were all sort of looking for things to keep us busy.
[344] and I like we've mentioned before I love hobbies I'm always looking for things to do and I had like a balcony that ran off from my living area and I got into gardening in that small little balcony of the things I could do at the time and the things I had lying around I got really into it and it's like sort of like caring for a plant I'm just trying to make a plant grow of putting time and effort into something else and and sort of not being in this sort of the world went that was going on online on our phones and stuff at that time disconnecting myself from that and sort of reconnecting myself with something as simple as as nature made me feel so good it took away all kind of like anxieties um i just felt very calm and very like it took me back to my childhood in a sense of like how i grew up i was very lucky to grow up in a in a little cottage type place um so getting all that thoughts it's it's it's it's part part memoir.
[345] I talk a lot about like growing up in the countryside and like and sort of things actually living in London and and all that kind of stuff, but also a part practical guide of hopefully giving some tips for other people in terms of like how they can find their imbalance that suits them in terms of the real world and social media world.
[346] It's quite a personal pivot, isn't it?
[347] Going from being a YouTuber who's uploading across three YouTube channels and is glued to a screen to standing here holding these pots.
[348] Yeah, it is, yeah, it is very different.
[349] I think, but that's, that's kind of like how I've been.
[350] I like to separate out, like, those two things.
[351] And what I've realized is separating those two things out is really beneficial for me. But it's, but it's in no way sort of saying that social media is bad in this kind of thing.
[352] You shouldn't be on social media because, like, it's a tool that we all use and we kind of like need to use.
[353] Like in terms of like we've got a personal computer in our hands.
[354] It's kind of like an extension of our arm.
[355] we use it for so many things so it's not saying like don't use your phone your phone is evil it's more kind of like finding a balance that's right for you that is going to help you feel better about yourself mentally on that point of thinking um mental health has become an increasing conversation over the last 10 years social media has played it's kind of sat in the middle of that debate um being someone that started a big social media business i talk about this a lot um and obviously you know people when we talk about social media and mental health they'll say well you all your money from it so and and my rebuttal is always the same which is you know if I if I spent 10 years within it and I knew there was something wrong and I didn't tell you I'd make me even more of an asshole right just because it had made me money so having having been us like very deep in social media over the last 10 years I think we're probably more qualified than most talk about the impacts it has on us the mind for better and for worse when you were going through your hard times of social media when you were having those real anxious moments where you've written a few things about how there was about a two -year period when you'd really got going where you just had this overwhelming sensation that felt like it was impossible to escape.
[356] Were you telling anybody about it?
[357] Were you talking to people?
[358] Were you speaking to Zoe, your family and saying, I'm getting anxiety right now?
[359] Yeah, more so my sister, because my sister has suffered with it a lot throughout her career.
[360] So I found it, I was very lucky that I could speak to her about it.
[361] and um and obviously got a therapist as well um that was recommended to me um through my sister do you remember that first time you spoke to her about it she she was she was very good about it to be fair because she's been through a lot of that stuff she's sort of um straight away made me feel better in knowing that at least sort of sort of acknowledging what it is and then bringing some sort of understanding to it um but it definitely definitely helped having someone so close to me like my sister being able to sort of help with that and you spoke to a therapist about this yes going to see a therapist has a lot of stigma surrounding it so especially men are often very reluctant to do that because i think especially once upon a time going and seeing a therapist meant that i was crazy oh yeah yeah so your journey to actually getting into the into therapy can you talk to me about that process and what pushed you ultimately to take that step i think for me it was I was, I never saw it as a sort of, I don't know whether it's because of my sister, once again, like through everything sort of, in a way sort of paving the way through that of like being like, she was, um, seeing a therapist.
[362] So I already felt like, well, if my sister, my big sister can do it, then, then I can.
[363] Do I mean, she, you know, if she can do it, I can, I can do it.
[364] So, so.
[365] I was quite lucky in a sense.
[366] It was actually a very easy process for me. What has therapy done for you practically?
[367] Is there anything you go, that's, it really helped me with that particular challenge that I had?
[368] It's made me realize that I am a, I've got a thing about people pleasing, I'm a people pleaser.
[369] So I often feel like I can't be my unapologetic self in a situation without risking causing offence to someone.
[370] I'm like terrified of upsetting someone or saying the wrong thing.
[371] I'm learning through therapy that how to sort of manage that and to acknowledge it first and foremost and then to sort of, and we're working on that at the moment of trying to sort of work on like why I have this thing of being worried so much about what other people think, about what I do.
[372] It's a tough business to be and if you have that as a kind of predisposition.
[373] Has your therapist been able to offer you any advice about overthinking at all yes uh more so in like the sort of anxiety side of things there's three there was i think two or three points that she suggested and it's like de -de -catastrophising the catastrophe um using time to separate so like if i'm if i'm feeling anxious i've got a sort of the way you think about time helps for example i was at um chelsea flower show recently with my mom and um i was i was engaged in conversation with someone else and i was but my mind was thinking like there's so much going on around me i's like i started to feel anxious i just needed to get out of there and it started to make me feel sick that i was like i couldn't leave and i and i had um remember i had a glass of champagne in my hand and i was like i don't know what to do because i can't i was starting to think of all these different scenarios of being like i can't just be sick here because i'm in like someone's garden i can't just like I can't just run away and leave mid -conversations I'm so worried about going to them sorry I can't listen to what you're saying right now because my mind is panicking I need to go I was so worried about how they would think of me so it's like all that going on but if you what I've learned is that if you take that and think this conversation is max going to last five minutes that helps and it's like no that after those five minutes you can walk over there and you can be on your own and do this kind of stuff and it's going to help so it's like if you're going into something that you think oh this can be a fine hour thing or two -hour exam you break it down into like chunks so it's like I've got okay this two -hour exam is four 30 -minute chunks and that that starts to make me feel less anxious about things and then also sort of thinking ahead of that whole thing so you've got an exam thinking well after this I'm going to go and do this this this and this and when you're thinking about things further in the future it actually starts to make make me feel more calm Diane you met her on Strictly yes strictly gave you a lot didn't it yeah it did yeah yeah what was really interesting is that was your first girlfriend yeah that's that's first yeah first yeah first real girlfriend yeah at what age 27 26 yeah i wonder if had you met her outside of strictly if you would be together yeah because it seems like you would have done a pretty good job of overthinking your way.
[374] We have the same conversation where like how lucky it was in a way that we were even parted together.
[375] Because when you're partnered, if we weren't even partners on the show, we're on the same show, we still say we may not have got together because when you're actually with your partners, you don't see each other throughout the week.
[376] So we're like this, we sort of see it as like the stars sort of realigned there.
[377] And but it wasn't, it was, it was an odd sort of situation.
[378] I guess.
[379] It's not how I thought it would happen.
[380] I used to be quite like nervous about sort of getting a girlfriend publicly because I would always think what because I had at the time I had this sort of large female young female demographic that were that really into sort of what I did and things like that and I was kind of like I've seen through like friends I've got girlfriends you know and when they introduce their girlfriends to their audience it's a bit kind of like a I always thought it would be a very private thing and in my head the whole time I was like it'll be very private and it's actually end up being the complete opposite it's like you can now watch the moment we met which is kind of unusual it seems from just speaking to you today and getting to know but it does seem like that was the perfect way for you to get past because you were forced together yeah yeah yeah and it's you know what I mean in the context of the show you were forced to spend time with each other you weren't there to fall in love but they put you together to do this very quite intimate thing very deep journey over many, many months.
[381] And it feels like from a, from just understanding you a little bit, that was probably the best way for you to get past a lot of that sort of talking yourself out of it.
[382] 100%.
[383] And you know what?
[384] You see the, I feel like on that, in that environment anyway, especially for me, it's like we saw, I feel like we saw the best and the worst in each other over that sort of 16 week period.
[385] There have been times where we're going to training in like things weren't going to plan with our going home and we, you know, stress.
[386] The further you go in that competition, the higher the, pressure is and the stress gets and things like that so we we saw the best and the worst of each other within those 16 excuse me within those 16 weeks and and I was and afterwards I was kind of like when we even sort of like had time to really kind of sort of address things like post and be like I actually kind of want to spend more time with you because I felt like I kind of I've seen the best and the worst and I can you know I'm happy with that and it's by versa and so yeah that's how it yeah that's how it sort of happened so the show ends yeah you get to the final you do very well and then you did the tour yes which everyone a lot of people do and they love that process as well when did you decide that your dance partner was not just a dance partner and was a girlfriend it was it was actually it was before the tour before the tour was before the tour it was after strictly but before the show finished um and like a few days after we had time to sort of like we obviously missed each other because we didn't see each other so after we were like sort like do miss like miss spending time with you and things like that and so obviously we had a conversation had a sort of decided and to see each other more often and things like that and we actually then went uh went away to a place in the new forest wait a minute that was very quick you had a conversation on WhatsApp or in person no no like in person okay so you met up a few times in person yeah yeah and then and then we went yeah he went uh we went uh we went uh we went to the new forest, like a little trip.
[387] Right.
[388] And I remember we were getting like followed because there's like there's a lot of like, sort of, there was a lot of like attention on us at the time, I think.
[389] And so yeah, we were getting followed by a guy.
[390] Like I'm very like sort of aware of like what's going on around me and stuff.
[391] I think it's just from the career that I've had over the last 10 years.
[392] I don't know.
[393] But I'm like, I was like, that guy who's parked, I can see from my flat.
[394] I was like, that guy who's parked there.
[395] He's a paparazzi, yeah.
[396] And this is going to sound really like, really wanky.
[397] But I was lent to Naston Martin that morning.
[398] So I went down and I was like, this is the best.
[399] I do things like this more often.
[400] I get lent cars like this.
[401] And I was like, and so I went down and parked it.
[402] And he must have seen me, parks.
[403] He knew what car to follow.
[404] And later on that day, I was driving along.
[405] And I looked at the rear of the mirror.
[406] I was like, I think we're being followed.
[407] And then I recognize the license plate or something to do with the car.
[408] And it put me on so much edge.
[409] I was like driving along thinking like, I actually can't concentrate on driving because I know this person is just trying to follow us.
[410] So I, yeah, I sort of turned off from where I was trying to go to because I don't want them to actually turn up to where we're going.
[411] So I was like trying to like shake him off a little bit.
[412] So I was like, right, Diane, you know I was working Bluetooth.
[413] It's like, yeah.
[414] Put on the James Bond theme song.
[415] And we had that moment of just like trying to sort of avoid this guy who was following us.
[416] And we did manage to do it, obviously, very safely.
[417] Did the pictures come out in the paper?
[418] No, no, nothing.
[419] Luckily, because we were moving on the move.
[420] But, but yeah, I remember that very clearly of that kind of like a moment of being like, this is not what I'm used to at all.
[421] don't know if I like this but but then yeah that's where we sort of yeah that's where you're a couple of years into the relationship now yeah you live together right yes yeah how's it going yeah it's going good yeah going really well it's it's it's really nice because we are both very like she's also one of the professional dancers so she's still very much involved in the show and and when the show is not on she's involved in the tours and things like that so a lot of our time is separate and we had one year obviously 2019 was a year where we were like together and but we had our own stuff that we're working on it's a very busy year for me and also a very busy year for her with like tours and and back then even like I think they do like cruise like I did like cruise ships and stuff as well so like those are different tours and stuff so we're away a lot of each a lot of the time but then when we come together it's so nice because we've got so much to as they say like distance makes the heart grow fonder and like kind of sort of situation like although we are away from each other a fair bit because of our work commitments and stuff it works really really well and like when we do when we are together it's nice just to spend quality time together um but yeah no absolutely loving it we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing who they're asking it for do you remember a moment where you realized that that you loved your job, when was it and why?
[422] And was there a moment when you realized you hated your job?
[423] When was it and why?
[424] Ooh, good question.
[425] The moment that I remember that I loved my job was, there's a lot of little moments that stick out, but I think this was going back to the old YouTube gang.
[426] So like me, my sister, Alfie, Marcus Butler, Jim, Tanya, a lot of that kind of, the brickery we were called back in the day.
[427] We got invited to Harry Potter World.
[428] And I'll admit I'm not the biggest Harry Potter fan, but just being around, like having like a day out with that group, that first sort of, because it's kind of like our first sort of big group out somewhere.
[429] And just being around these people and we're all going through the same situation, which I really appreciate the that there's people within this group that I could chat to and speak to about what was going on and it was such a new and exciting time and we're all kind of on that journey up.
[430] And I just remember that's all that memory's always stuck in my head and there's weirdly there's a there's a vlog.
[431] We all vloged it.
[432] So it's like it's actually been documented so we can go back and watch it in the future and stuff.
[433] But that really sticks out.
[434] So what about the second part of that question?
[435] So a moment where I hated my job.
[436] Yeah.
[437] I guess it was the time where I had that burnout feeling and I was, I had so much going on.
[438] I just thought, you know what?
[439] I actually don't really know if I want to do this anymore.
[440] And I remember telling my manager at the time, Alex, that I was like, I just don't know if I want to do this.
[441] There's too much going on.
[442] I don't, I actually can't really handle it.
[443] I'm, you know, and I'm thinking about my old job and how much sort of simpler that was and thinking like, It's like, but I had all these things going from my head of like that thing of like, don't be ungrateful, but also I am struggling with it.
[444] I guess in that moment would feel like the time I hated it.
[445] But it didn't last very long because my manager at the time, Alex, she sent me a like a care package.
[446] She like went out and above and beyond and sent me this care package of like a book.
[447] And weirdly, it was a Harry Potter book, which, as we know, not the biggest fan.
[448] But at the time, it was exactly, like I said, is exactly what I needed.
[449] so but right before she saved the day it was um yeah tough probably about that that time i think um joe thank you so much thank you for your time thank you for writing a really important book i think these kind of messages in the digital overstimulated worlds where living in especially our generation the generation that are coming are very very important and they're very simplifying which i love because it's very easy to write very complex things that are that try and make things more complicated than they are in order to make yourself sound super smart or to try and trick people to buy something or to think you're a scientist.
[450] But I love stuff that is simplifying.
[451] It makes it much more accessible.
[452] And I think that is why I love this particular book so much.
[453] But I also really appreciate your honesty because you're talking about topics and themes that on one hand, very few people will ever get to experience with the crazy career that you had in YouTube and that you're having in the media and all of these things.
[454] But also topics that are not always easy to talk about, which is the difficult, harder times.
[455] And that balance is exactly why we do what we do here.
[456] So thank you for your time.
[457] Thank you very much.
[458] No, pleasure.
[459] Thanks for having me. I can't wait to see what happens next.
[460] Save.