Glennon Doyle

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dach Shepherd.

[2] I'm sitting next to a very small, powerful mouse.

[3] That's me. By the name of Monica Padman.

[4] Hi there.

[5] How you doing?

[6] Fantastic.

[7] Oh, good.

[8] Well, we have a very wonderful guest today.

[9] Glennon Doyle.

[10] Glennon Doyle is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Untamed and Love Warrior, as well as the New York Times bestseller of Carry On Warrior.

[11] She is our mothers and our wives' favorite person alive.

[12] She is so much so that we asked Kristen to come join us for this episode since she pretty much knows all these books by heart.

[13] Yes, she reads them over and over again.

[14] So it's a full house today, and we hope you enjoy Glennon Doyle.

[15] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[16] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[17] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[18] He's an arm chair and spread.

[19] Oh, my goodness.

[20] We're good.

[21] Glenn and welcome.

[22] Hi.

[23] I'm so thrilled and sweaty to be here.

[24] Very.

[25] Well, this is our second attempt at this and almost foiled once again by technology in this case.

[26] But last time you were going to be our guest in Denver and then a force majeure caused you to.

[27] to be grounded in Florida, right?

[28] Yeah, that was a tough day.

[29] Tough day.

[30] I think I was in the airport for 13 hours.

[31] Oh.

[32] And then got sent home.

[33] And it was a live event that we were supposed to be doing together.

[34] That was the sweatiest day.

[35] Yes.

[36] But we made it through and you are so kind and so wonderful about it.

[37] So thank you for that.

[38] Well, I often assume, and probably wrongly, one of my bad habits is lots of projection.

[39] but I do assume that because you and I are both recovering addicts, I feel like I have some sense of what you be going through at the airport in a very powerless situation.

[40] Dax?

[41] Yeah.

[42] There's no, I don't think even you could know what that day was like.

[43] I think I may have told you in an email that a woman actually, I was sitting on the floor in the airport because the whole airport was shut down.

[44] So everyone had lost their flights.

[45] And a woman actually came and sat next to me and said, honey, are you okay?

[46] Because of my level of, yeah, I just, I think as a recovering addict, I'm always trying to figure out, am I an irresponsible person who's just acting responsible now, or was I always a responsible person who just was acting irresponsible when I was drunk all the time?

[47] So when things like that happen and I'm late to something or I can't get to something, all of my terror about actually being a bad person comes to the search.

[48] Yes, yes.

[49] Yes, that's what it was.

[50] And I think as well for you and I, like this muscle memory of not showing up for people, it's like for me so linked to the addiction phase of my life that I just don't ever want to revisit it.

[51] So yeah, for me, the personal pain of missing something I wanted to attend might be a three, but knowing I've let people down is like an 11 for me. Yeah.

[52] Yeah.

[53] And you have that right like a people pleasing complex yeah i think you could say that i have yeah yeah and also i wrote to you afterwards because i was so devastated because and i'll just get through this fast but when my family was going through the divorce and the remarrying of abbey and my kids were in so much pain and it was complicated and some of it was public and it was a lot and my kids we just couldn't talk about things directly.

[54] Like, I put them in therapy.

[55] We did all the things.

[56] But still, when I sat down and asked, you know, how are you feeling, it's just too much sometimes.

[57] They didn't know what to say.

[58] We were having a hard time talking about things.

[59] So for some reason, I had already watched the whole thing, but we sat down with the kids and started watching parenthood from the beginning.

[60] Somehow, through watching the show each night, during this, like, traumatic firestorm of our family, afterwards, they would start talking.

[61] First of all, in that show, they dealt with every single freaking thing that any family can go through.

[62] But in our family, it was like all in one family.

[63] Uh -huh.

[64] Yeah, the whole, the storyline of 10 people in one family.

[65] Right, like the divorces and the addiction and all of it.

[66] And we started to be able to talk.

[67] So that became our family therapy.

[68] We were able to talk about all the things, but sideways through characters, right?

[69] Uh -huh, uh -huh.

[70] And then when Hattie turned out to be gay, I was like, holy shit.

[71] They could not stop hooking me up with everything.

[72] It was just, so it meant a lot to me. And so I really was excited to thank you for that in person that day.

[73] But now I can do it.

[74] So thank you very much for all of that.

[75] Well, you should know there is a seventh season that's writ where Christina writes three really popular books and goes on a speaking tour.

[76] Yeah, I just never saw the light of day.

[77] I think we should tell people what's going on.

[78] It's a little different than normal.

[79] We have an extra person on our podcast.

[80] Yes.

[81] I thought it was appropriate to bring a super fan of yours with us today.

[82] Not that we're not, but your number one fan happens to be our wife.

[83] Yes.

[84] If you had bought land and you wanted to start your cult, I guarantee Kristen would be the very first person to raise her hand.

[85] Honey?

[86] Without a doubt.

[87] I often refer to you as my true north because I just, just find so much comfort in your writing and everything you post on social media and when I'm wandering, which is often and usually just through the big cavernous space I call my brain, I can find a little bit of light through some of what you've written about.

[88] And I'm very, very grateful.

[89] Honey, when did you discover Glenn?

[90] I was actually given Love Warrior by Chelsea Handler, who loves the book.

[91] This was probably six or seven years ago, I want to say, and she sent it to me and said, she wrote in it, Kristen, this is a book I read and feel every woman should read.

[92] I really believe you'll love it.

[93] And I did.

[94] and I was like, who is this honest, raw, tiny firecracker?

[95] I want to consume more of her ideas because I'm inspired by them.

[96] And then I proceeded to gobble up pretty much everything you've ever written.

[97] It's very that, it's amazing to me. I mean, as Kristen knows, since she follows my social media, our avianized belief is that you should always have secret service surrounding you because you are a national treasure that should be protected.

[98] at all costs.

[99] So for you to say that is completely amazing and I'm grateful.

[100] Well, I will say that when you sort of repeat often that feelings are for feeling, that's why they're there.

[101] And I feel a lot of feelings and often feel raw.

[102] And though I'm not an addict, I do feel, you know, the air stings my skin.

[103] And I often, like you've said, have a problem as an empath, understanding what are my feelings and what are other people's feelings.

[104] Like, figuring out what my pain is versus someone else's pain.

[105] And there's just so many things you say that I feel organize my thoughts.

[106] You're like my thought organizer.

[107] Like when you said, someone once asked me why I cry all the time.

[108] And I told them it's the same reason I laugh all the time because I'm paying attention.

[109] I was like, I felt like I was going to explode.

[110] I was like, yes, yes, yes, that's what I've been feeling.

[111] Yeah.

[112] It's been a long journey for me to figure out that sensitivity is a bit of a superpower.

[113] You know, I even wrote in my first book, I wrote, I was born broken with an extra dose of sensitivity.

[114] I actually used to think that about myself.

[115] Raising my daughter Tish has helped me kind of recalibrate everything I used to think about myself.

[116] I started binging and purging when I was 10 years old.

[117] That turned into alcoholism and then drug addiction and all the things until I was 25.

[118] And my whole life became, you know, therapists and medication and diagnoses, and then I actually went to a, what was a mental hospital, my senior year in high school, because there were no eating disorder clinics where we were.

[119] And so, you know, the narrative in my head forever has been, I'm crazy.

[120] I can do other things somehow, like I can write, but my base belief was, I am crazy.

[121] And it's hard to trust yourself when you have that base belief about yourself because, you know, can you trust yourself not to sabotage your life and your family's life.

[122] But raising Tish, she is, I imagine, a lot like I was when I was 10.

[123] Like she has big freaking feelings.

[124] And you guys, it is very hard to raise a highly sensitive person.

[125] Like I would have thought being a highly sensitive person that it would be easy for me. But it is not easy.

[126] She's extremely difficult and amazing and fantastic.

[127] And watching the way that she reacts to the world, I mean, she has a teacher, her teacher called me recently and said, we have a situation at school.

[128] And I said, I bet we do.

[129] And she said, yeah, so I may have mentioned to the class that the ice caps are melting because of climate change and the polar bears are losing their homes.

[130] And she said, the other kids were able to, you know, feel sad but soldier on to recess.

[131] But Tish is still sitting on the carpet, just asking question after.

[132] or question, like, where are the polar bears' moms?

[133] Why aren't the grownups doing anything about this?

[134] How old is she?

[135] Well, she's 14 now.

[136] So this was when she, this was a few years ago.

[137] And our whole family's life became revolved around polar bears forever.

[138] It was just fucking, I, a few weeks later, I just hated polar bears.

[139] I just wished polar bears had never been born, you know, by the end of the polar bear saga of our family.

[140] But what I realized is one night she went to bed and she said, Mommy, It's just that it's the polar bears now.

[141] Nobody cares so soon it'll be us.

[142] And I just stared at her and thought, oh, my God, okay, you're not crazy to be heartbroken about the polar bears.

[143] Like the rest of us are crazy not to be broken about polar bears, right?

[144] Like what I figured out, Kristen, is like people like us in most cultures, in most times forever, for the history of all time, people like us are pointed out.

[145] They're set apart from the tribe.

[146] They're considered to be a little bit eccentric and a little different, but also crucial to the tribe's survival because they're the shaman and the medicine men and women and the clergy and the poets and the artists, right?

[147] They're people who see things that other people can't see and are willing to feel things that other people can't feel.

[148] But I think in our culture, we're so hell -bent on productivity and efficiency and speed that it is easier for us to call those people broken than to consider that they're responding appropriately to a broken world, right?

[149] What I have learned about sensitivity and people like us and people like Tish is that there's like a lot of being a profit in that kind of sensitivity, right?

[150] Like we are kind of the people that are standing on the deck of the Titanic yelling iceberg, right?

[151] And everyone else is like, we just want to keep dancing.

[152] So I think it's hard to live as an empath and a sensitive person, but I try to teach Tish all the time that there's also incredible gifts and responsibilities that come with you.

[153] it.

[154] Yeah, I remember the first time I actually acknowledged that I was different in that way was when I was, I think I was about 14 and I stepped on a slug.

[155] It like, someone had tracked it into the kitchen of my home and I stepped on it with my sock and I felt it and it was like a lightning bolt up to my body that I, and I never killed anything at that point.

[156] I mean, not knowingly, I'm sure I'd trampled bugs before on accident, but I'd never sort of done something and recognized it in the moment and I was so heartbroken.

[157] I didn't know the slug prior to this experience, but I found a matchbox and I buried it in a matchbox in my backyard.

[158] And as I was doing it by myself, I was like, yeah, you're not normal.

[159] Normal.

[160] Yeah.

[161] Yeah, we've got a couple of those in our house.

[162] And I have raised them from the beginning to feel all their feelings and express all their feelings.

[163] And now you guys especially half like this far into quarantine sometimes they're just hours into discussing their feelings and I just think maybe I went wrong like maybe I over it's too much it's I overcorrected here like perhaps I should have talked about suffering silently a little bit more well don't you ever find that you're like you're caught between what would be most quote healthy or productive emotionally for your kids and then the reality that they're going to join the real world where no one's going to give a flying fuck.

[164] It's like the Chris Rock joke of his last stand -up is like, bad news, I'm the only person that's going to care about this shit.

[165] You leave this house and no one gives a fuck about what you're going to see.

[166] I almost wonder sometimes if I'm like misleading them or false advertising what the world is because, you know, I'm a dude who's all ears for these two girls at all times and I'm like, good luck finding this replacement.

[167] Because I, you know, I've not met a ton of dudes that want to hear about anyone's feelings around the clock.

[168] Yeah, that's why I don't hang out with boys.

[169] I don't know about boys.

[170] I don't know many.

[171] I do hear that.

[172] I do hear that, though.

[173] But you know what, Dax, in our family, sports has helped solve that problem.

[174] So when Abby came to our family, Abby has big feelings, too.

[175] But she felt like maybe our children needed to be able to carry on a little bit more in the real world.

[176] Yeah.

[177] And so they all started playing soccer seriously.

[178] And I was not a sports.

[179] I don't know about the sports, okay?

[180] But I will tell you that I have become the biggest believer in sports for kids.

[181] Because I'm watching my kids out on these fields.

[182] And I have tried to talk to them and teach them forever about, you know, like winning with class and losing with dignity and like persevering.

[183] persevering, even when you're frustrated and, like, dealing with your feelings of disappointment.

[184] And they are doing it all on the sports field.

[185] Like, I have figured out.

[186] It's like this safe little place inside of a game where they get to experience the entire range of human emotions and deal with it.

[187] Mm -hmm.

[188] You know?

[189] And do it in a community of other people with a shared goal and learning how to, yeah, do that all together, I think is profound.

[190] Yeah.

[191] I want to know a little bit, to me, 10 years old seems really young to have an eating disorder, not in the sense that that's basically the age I developed all these ticks, like these OCD ticks.

[192] And so I recognize that in that way it makes sense because at 10 you probably felt like a lot of your world was out of control.

[193] But a body image thing, was it linked at all to you having a body image at 10 years old of what a girl was supposed to look like already?

[194] Maybe.

[195] I mean, I don't know.

[196] When I think about that now, I make, I look at.

[197] my kids, and my youngest one is, shit, I don't know, she's 12 or 11 or something.

[198] And it makes me want to cry when I think about myself as a 10 -year -old having that secret, you know, that secret life.

[199] I think that, I'm sure, I'm sure.

[200] I mean, with writing untamed, I know that when we start to internalize social conditioning often happens right at 10 years old, you know, between like 8 and 12 is when we start losing ourselves to start pleasing, right?

[201] So we start to understand oh, that's what a girl's supposed to do.

[202] That's what a Doyle's supposed to do.

[203] That's what a Christian's supposed to do.

[204] That's what a straight person is supposed to do.

[205] We really do start to understand those social conditions and we get a little bit caged by them.

[206] But I think for me, I would imagine that that young, I mean, I still have a lot of the feelings that I had when I was 10, when I was binging.

[207] I think it had to do with hunger.

[208] Like it had to do with, I feel pain.

[209] and I can numb pain with food.

[210] I think it was a discovery that, like, I have all these feelings and I don't know what to do with them.

[211] I think, like, we don't tell kids how to deal with feelings.

[212] I never learned how to deal with fear and anger and jealousy and pain.

[213] And I just felt like as a kid that everybody else was happy and I was full of pain.

[214] And then I was ashamed of that.

[215] And food was a way to just escape from it.

[216] it for a while.

[217] Stuff it all down.

[218] But I think I did understand that it was important for me to stay small.

[219] I have always, that, that message is ground into my bones still.

[220] And in all senses of the word?

[221] Yes.

[222] Physically small.

[223] Your opinion should be small.

[224] The space you're occupying should be small.

[225] I think that I have now finally in this last decade of my life gotten myself largely free from the idea that my opinion should be small.

[226] Ambition I still get confused about, but my physical body, I mean, I am telling you, I was crying to add me about it.

[227] It's gotten a little bit worse during quarantine because, well, actually it was getting worse before quarantine because I was supposed to be going on a book tour.

[228] And whenever I'm about to do something really public, we call it my family, I get weird, which really just means like I'm working out too much, I'm not eating as much, whatever.

[229] And I told Abby, I bet that if I could measure my thoughts, that 50 % of my thoughts each day are about food and body.

[230] Wow.

[231] Which pisses me off so much.

[232] It just, it enrages me because I'm a very smart woman and I'm a powerful woman and I can't imagine the opportunity cost of those thoughts.

[233] Like what I could create and the work.

[234] that I could do and the time that I could spend thinking about my family and myself if I had those thoughts back.

[235] It's not food, right?

[236] It's the control of food.

[237] Yeah.

[238] Yeah.

[239] What would you, Gail, say, what percentage of your day is occupied by that?

[240] So that's what I'm trying to think, because for food, like, two, three percent, you know, just I'm hungry and I want food.

[241] But control very high, too.

[242] It's just manifest itself in a different way for me. And Mama, instead of food, you're thinking about shit online, right?

[243] Is that your control mechanism?

[244] No, I'm thinking about nesting, nesting, and nurturing in the bad sense of the word, and the word that I need to be doing something different to make everyone happy.

[245] And if we only had this drawer organizer, then everyone would have a much better family dinner.

[246] and we wouldn't have fought about politics because I, but I didn't get the drawer organizer.

[247] So that's why it happened.

[248] So it's, what are the outside sources that I can fix the, all the inside stuff, which is really just, you know, family interaction and confirmation bias and all these different things.

[249] So, yeah, it's, it's mostly nesting of different things I need in my life that are material.

[250] I do that too.

[251] Mine's usually, it's something for the house.

[252] Or, like, I always think I am one click away from happiness and joy and peace.

[253] Like, just have to order that one other thing, and it'll all be fixed.

[254] So this control thing is so interesting because I would say in my marriage with Abby, I have come to understand that I am a very controlling person, okay?

[255] And before, in my other relationships, I just thought that I was a very good leader.

[256] okay i just felt like that's what we tell ourselves so i say alphas yeah yes yeah yes i just felt like in any given conversation of people that i have the best ideas and so i'll hear you and then we will all get to my idea yeah yeah i i feel the weight of always having the best plan as well i can really right.

[257] Yeah.

[258] So, which it worked okay for a while.

[259] But then with Abby, it just stopped working.

[260] And I think that she also thinks that she has good ideas, right?

[261] I remember one night, I was doing my thing where I just try to manipulate the situation.

[262] And she said, it makes me so sad when you do that.

[263] And I was like, what?

[264] And she's like, when you try to control what I'm doing, it makes me feel like you don't trust me. And that makes me really.

[265] And that makes me really, sad because I really trust you.

[266] Boy, what a great way to communicate and get through to you.

[267] Yeah, two girls being married, you guys?

[268] Like two girls being married who are both seekers and both sober and have nothing else to do but talk each other to death all day.

[269] Okay, this is what we do.

[270] So the reason I'm telling that story is because when she said that to me, I realized, oh, okay, so I don't think I've really been loving before because I've been controlling.

[271] And I think you can control people or love people, but you can't do both because love, love requires trust, right?

[272] And we only control things we don't trust, okay?

[273] So in my marriage with Abby, I'm trying to, like, take the control out of love and just love.

[274] But that's what I figured out, how I know I don't love my body, and I don't mean the shape of my body.

[275] Like, I could give two shits.

[276] It's not that anymore.

[277] It's that I don't actually love it because I don't trust it.

[278] I don't trust it to just eat what I want.

[279] move when it wants and let it become whatever it's meant to become.

[280] Instead, I'm trying to control it all the time, right?

[281] Like, control what I eat, control how I exercise, keep it a certain size.

[282] So, you know, I just hope that at some point I will be able to take the control out of that part of my life too.

[283] I'm glad to hear you say this stuff because I think you and I run a fatal risk of having a lot of the answers.

[284] And that's what's appealing about us to certain people.

[285] And I don't know about you, but I personally get a lot of esteem from that and validation.

[286] And I'm flattered and blown away that someone would want my perspective on something.

[287] But then the danger in it for me is I can stop being honest in the moment about what I'm currently struggling with.

[288] So you and I have great stories about what we've overcome.

[289] And then I think that the pothole is that it's then hard to own what's.

[290] going on currently because I'm afraid I'll lose that, you know, privileged position I have in some people's lives.

[291] I just wondered if that's something that, you know, as you write books and people will tell you that this book changed their life, do you feel like it's harder to actually own all your real -time defects and struggles?

[292] No, I don't feel like that.

[293] I don't ever feel like I have answers, actually.

[294] I don't, that's not what I'm doing.

[295] Like, I just, I am really, really curious about the mess of it all and not having answers, but just having interesting observations and feelings that we all kind of have at the same time.

[296] Like, I think maybe the know -it -all thing can happen in my family.

[297] You know, I think I did realize after observing the difference between the way I do things and Abby does things, she's not a controller, she's the kindest person I know, is I kept thinking, okay, yeah, like I might have.

[298] the smartest thing to say in this situation.

[299] But everyone likes her more.

[300] Oh.

[301] Like, everyone likes her more.

[302] I like her more.

[303] Okay.

[304] Yeah, sure.

[305] My parents like her more.

[306] And so I just kept thinking, okay, like I could keep doing this.

[307] Like, I could keep running this ship or I could try to like have friends like she does.

[308] Yeah.

[309] I could try it that way, you know?

[310] Yeah.

[311] She seems happy.

[312] Then do you struggle with the opposite thing, which is that a lot of people do very much think you have the answers and they read your book and it's like a holy grail for them and do you struggle with that?

[313] Knowing that you yourself feel like, no, this is just a mess and I'm just working through it and I'm putting this stuff out there.

[314] But people immortalize that.

[315] But I think that is the thing, that that is the answer.

[316] The answer is that this is all a mess and we're all working through it.

[317] Like, that's what should be immortalized, right?

[318] So there might be like little glimmers of insight that come through each struggle that I happen to be able to put down on paper.

[319] That's good.

[320] Also, forget everything.

[321] Like, it amazes me that there's an entire book of wisdom that I don't know anything right now.

[322] Like, I forget everything that just happened.

[323] I'm like Dory from Nemo.

[324] Like, I can, it's like every day I'm learning the same things over and over and over again.

[325] It's embarrassing, isn't it?

[326] It's embarrassing, isn't it?

[327] That I've known for 10 years.

[328] I'm like, Jesus Christ, I got to write it down and glance at it every couple hours.

[329] Absolutely.

[330] I mean, I just went through this.

[331] Last night, I was laying in bed, like, feeling so awful because I had lost my temper last week.

[332] I said some shitty things to a really good person.

[333] And I just get thinking, wow, we're still doing this.

[334] We are still doing this, you know?

[335] Yeah.

[336] God.

[337] Well, do you ever think, too, because I assume that you do a lot of ten -stepping, do you?

[338] No, I did AA.

[339] Or I know we're not supposed to talk about it out of love.

[340] No, I say AA.

[341] You can say it all the time.

[342] I'm in AA.

[343] That's the fact.

[344] Yeah.

[345] So for the first part of my sobriety, and now I am big, huge.

[346] fan and believer, but I haven't been to a meeting in a really, really long time.

[347] But, you know, 10th is like a daily, you take a quick daily inventory and then you make amends when appropriate.

[348] You just kind of fix what you've done daily.

[349] And I think it's...

[350] That's what I was doing last.

[351] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[352] So, like, so part of me is like, I'm proud that I'm in a good habit of that.

[353] You know, I do that pretty often.

[354] But then another voice in my head's like, you know, these people, you know what they would like a lot more than an apology for you to fucking stop doing it?

[355] Like, I'm waiting for someone.

[356] I'm waiting for someone.

[357] someone to say to me, like, oh, good for you.

[358] Thank you for the 1 ,000th apology this year.

[359] Just fucking stop doing it.

[360] Like, I found myself at work this year going, they're getting, they must be getting apology fatigue from me. Like, oh, here comes back.

[361] He's either offending me or apologizing for it.

[362] Those are the only two gears he seems to have.

[363] That's amazing.

[364] Same.

[365] Yeah.

[366] And then I was lying in Ben talking to Abby about this particular situation.

[367] And one of the reasons I was so annoyed is because I had this idea of myself that during Corona, I was going to be like this amazing leader.

[368] Like I was going to be like the best leader that ever led.

[369] Like people were going to look back on this time and they were going to be like, that was our anchor.

[370] And then in the meeting with these people who in my head, I am leading the shit out of them.

[371] I just completely lost my shit.

[372] I lost my shit.

[373] I said ridiculous things that most fourth graders wouldn't say.

[374] So I'm laying in bed.

[375] I'm laying in bed and I'm saying, Abby, and I really wanted to be a good leader.

[376] And I just feel like I blew it.

[377] And then she said, and also you're sad because you hurt her feelings, right?

[378] Ah.

[379] Oh, boy.

[380] Wow, wow, wow.

[381] Yeah.

[382] I was like, I can't even feel guilty unselfishly.

[383] Yeah.

[384] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[385] What's up, guys?

[386] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[387] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[388] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[389] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[390] And I don't mean just friends.

[391] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[392] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[393] Kikiie Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[394] We've all been there.

[395] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[396] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

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[403] Mama, what were your thoughts as we headed into Panthers?

[404] pandemic.

[405] What role did you think in your mind you would occupy?

[406] Very, very similar.

[407] I didn't, I didn't think I'd be the leader, you know, for the free world, but I definitely thought I've got this family on lock.

[408] My kids are going to come out going into second grade with their times tables, with a bigger vocabulary, with a hunger for learning, and a growth mindset, because I can stimulate all of those things.

[409] And when we began this quarantine, you know, I saw online all the beautiful pictures that color -coded schedules and I made it.

[410] I sat down with colored pencils.

[411] And I'm saying these words right now and I want to puke thinking about it.

[412] But I shaded it and it was beautiful in rainbow and I hung it up.

[413] I made them little place settings where we would learn.

[414] And this is when you were still out of town dachs.

[415] Oh, believe me. Yeah, I was watching it from afar going, oh, I'm so glad I'm in Texas.

[416] Yeah, and we had five days of this, and my girls hated me. I mean, they hated me. Monica, you saw a lot of it.

[417] Well, yeah, no one was happy.

[418] No one was happy.

[419] And I, on the fifth day, I woke them up.

[420] I was like, I'm going to get up earlier, and this is going to be a dramatic, huge reveal.

[421] Even that I couldn't let go.

[422] like now and now I'm going to do it right.

[423] I woke them up and I said, girls, girls, come into the kitchen.

[424] I have a very important job, maybe the most important job you've ever had.

[425] And they were like, what?

[426] And I took the schedule off the wall and I said, I handed it to them and I said, rip it up, shred it.

[427] And they were like, what?

[428] And because again, they're not used to me not having a ton of control and they got really excited like tiny wolverines and they shredded it and they did then they looked at me like uh oh was this a trap or something they failed the test right right and i will say this part with pride i said here's the lesson if you have a plan that is making everyone miserable the lesson is you pivot you pivot because i was making you guys miserable with this huge idea I had about our school days.

[429] None of us are happy.

[430] We are pivoting and I want you to take these shreds and throw them in the trash.

[431] And we've done very little learning since that day.

[432] But this is my parenting.

[433] I feel so bad for all you guys because I mean, I honestly, I look at this and I saw the schedule and I was like, okay, so people are going to be a little upset that they have to do reading for an hour or this and that.

[434] But good for Kristen for making them do it at a time when she could just be like, whatever.

[435] She's like trying to bring some structure.

[436] It came from a good place.

[437] It came from a place of let's keep your brains moving and active.

[438] And so there's like no right, there's just no right answer.

[439] I feel horrible for you people.

[440] You should.

[441] I do.

[442] It's really rough.

[443] It's really rough.

[444] I often say, boy, what you're willing to go through just to have the tiny arms around your neck for like 30 seconds a day.

[445] Because that's pretty much it.

[446] That's the little arms around your neck for 30 seconds a day.

[447] And that's the only fuel you get in the tank for all the other shit.

[448] That's right.

[449] So, Glenn, I have a quick question for you because you said, you know, you wanted to be the leader and stuff.

[450] And is that because you've established your identity as that?

[451] So when it was like falling apart, it felt so brute.

[452] Like, do you do you, do you, Call yourself a leader in life.

[453] I just wanted to be good.

[454] You know, I just wanted, like, to, I love this little team I was going through this with, and all of their plans were dashed because they've all been working on this launch all year.

[455] Right.

[456] So it was just a mess, and I just wanted to be like the steady, loving force, right?

[457] So that didn't work out so well.

[458] But, you know, like every plan, it's like what you said.

[459] We make these plans, and then it's always, there's a human thing that happens.

[460] I mean, when you said that thing to the kids, Kristen, about the lesson is when a structure's not working, we pivot.

[461] It reminded me of the conversation I had with my kids when we were divorcing, not that that is the same.

[462] Yeah, can I just, I did you a disservice.

[463] I want to, for anyone who doesn't know your story, let me just encapsulate it quickly, which is you graduated college, you became a teacher.

[464] in northern Virginia, you got married to a man and you had three children.

[465] You were married for quite a while for 14 years, something like that.

[466] Incredible amount of time as Kristen and I near 13 years and we're already planning our exit.

[467] So it's incredibly impressive.

[468] And then you met Abby and fell in love with Abby and then you got divorced and you got married to Abby.

[469] So that in a nutshell is the overarching story.

[470] But within that, I'm curious, how deep into the marriage did you start feeling like this wasn't the fit for you.

[471] I know that that he had cheated several times and then I listened to your part in the book where he described having sex or you were telling your therapist about it.

[472] I'm wondering how many years into that 14 year run before you were feeling like you were only doing it for the children.

[473] Yeah.

[474] I mean, Craig and I got married.

[475] Craig is, he listens to every one of these podcasts.

[476] Oh, he does.

[477] I mean, he's the big ducks.

[478] Every, basically it dinner.

[479] Well, we all have dinner together a lot.

[480] We're very close.

[481] And we will just be at dinner.

[482] And somebody will say, well, like Doc said today.

[483] And I'm like, you guys, like, you're not, it wasn't a conversation that you had with them.

[484] Yes, it was.

[485] Yes, it was.

[486] So we got married when I found out that I was pregnant.

[487] Okay.

[488] And I got sober the day I found out I was pregnant.

[489] So everything happened at once.

[490] Okay.

[491] And how long had you been an addict at that point?

[492] 15 years.

[493] 15 years.

[494] And booze and what else?

[495] I was never, ever addicted to a drug.

[496] I did drugs.

[497] I did all the drugs.

[498] I don't think there's any drug that I didn't do.

[499] But I never found myself addicted to any drugs.

[500] Booze was my thing.

[501] Just all.

[502] And cocaine in college was probably got a little too much.

[503] So I started drinking at the end of high school.

[504] So I would have been maybe 16, 17.

[505] And then I quit when I was 25 when I found out I was pregnant.

[506] Okay.

[507] And you were still, you were still, you were.

[508] teaching at this time.

[509] Yeah.

[510] Yeah.

[511] And I was drinking to blackout every night.

[512] I never, ever had a night where I wasn't.

[513] I didn't know what going to sleep was.

[514] I had to pass out.

[515] But I was still teaching every day.

[516] I was actually a really good teacher.

[517] I know it's so scary.

[518] People are probably thinking that homeschooling is a good idea after hearing that.

[519] But I was a good teacher.

[520] I loved my students.

[521] It was my slice of goodness.

[522] And it's where I got all of my self -esteem because it was the only thing that I was good at.

[523] I think that the functional alcoholics, it's harder for us sometimes.

[524] I do too.

[525] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[526] Because you don't have as many obvious things.

[527] You don't have people confronting you as often.

[528] And I will say sometimes my addiction and the shame spiral benefited a lot of other people.

[529] So I would imagine for you, you black out, you come too.

[530] You don't go to sleep and wake up.

[531] The shame each morning.

[532] And the only thing you have to rebuild that self -esteem is being a good teacher.

[533] So in many ways, I worked much harder trying to catch up for the time wasted, and I was extra available because shame is a great source of fuel, unfortunately.

[534] So, you know, sometimes I can work to your advantage.

[535] Yeah, yeah, it did.

[536] So Craig and I got married right around then.

[537] And when you said, when did I know?

[538] I mean, I would say that Craig and I were amazing co -parents.

[539] We were really good at creating a little family.

[540] a fantastic dad and I was a good mom and we made this beautiful little family but as a couple we just couldn't get there emotionally or physically like we just never had a depth of you know date nights were hard for us because then you're supposed to go out and talk more and make out more and we sucked at both of those things so that sort of thing and then and sex was really confusing and hard for me I just thought there was something wrong with me that I hated it so much, that it was really not a good experience for me. I just always felt like I was acting.

[541] I never felt like lost in any moment.

[542] I just, it was a performance.

[543] And even prior to Craig?

[544] Well, it's hard for me to think about it before Craig because I was always drinking.

[545] Sure.

[546] So, so I don't know.

[547] I mean, I had boyfriends.

[548] I never, ever, ever remember thinking sex is this magical thing.

[549] Okay.

[550] Yeah.

[551] Gotcha.

[552] So, you know, I just, like, knew how to act in sex.

[553] Like, I'm supposed to bend this way.

[554] I'm supposed to make this noise.

[555] I'm supposed to, like, wear this thing.

[556] It was more about being wanted than wanting.

[557] And I actually remember thinking, you know, sex in a mirror just like an oil change.

[558] You just have to, like, keep doing it to, like, keep things running smoothly.

[559] And so no one gets annoyed.

[560] And that's it.

[561] So that's lovely and romantic thought.

[562] So then 10 years in, Craig told me, that he had been unfaithful, right, throughout our marriage.

[563] Mm -hmm.

[564] And that was a doozy, but when I think back on it, I remember my friends thinking that my reaction was strange because I was utterly furious and heartbroken because of what it was going to do to my family.

[565] Right.

[566] Because on some level, did you feel like I'm sure he needed that because it wasn't happening with us?

[567] No. No, I wasn't that wise at the time.

[568] I just, I thought of it the opposite way.

[569] I thought, well, no shit, there's something wrong with us having, like, no wonder I'm pissed all the time.

[570] No wonder we can't connect in bed because you're out there.

[571] I kind of thought about it the opposite way.

[572] Uh -huh.

[573] But my rage about it was more geared toward screwing up my kids than it was like a person would feel when they were betrayed by their person.

[574] Right.

[575] You know, like it wasn't, like, personally gut -wrenching.

[576] It was like, how could you do this to our family type thing?

[577] But still, at the time, everybody had, you know, ideas about what I should do.

[578] I just knew that it wasn't time for me to leave yet, that there was unfinished business there.

[579] And I think I knew that if I left him with that much rage, that we would never be able to co -parent.

[580] We had to work through something, right?

[581] Yeah, yeah.

[582] So we did.

[583] We worked our asses off for years, and he did every single thing that a person could ask of another human being.

[584] He tried so hard.

[585] He went to all the therapy.

[586] He did everything, right?

[587] And I was still just, like, low -level, ragey all the time.

[588] Like, no matter what I did, no matter how hard I tried, I was just, like, praying for this, like, forgiveness thing to land on me. but it wouldn't really.

[589] And this is a really fun part of the story, which is you write a book about this experience.

[590] This is the moment in your life I just really, the projection stops.

[591] Character default of mine is like, I made my bed and I will fucking lay in it in misery.

[592] So if I wrote a book about salvaging a marriage that had been rocked by infidelity, and the fact that you announced that you're getting divorced, was it two weeks after the book came out?

[593] Before.

[594] Before.

[595] Oh, my God.

[596] And this was an Oprah book club.

[597] Like the money and things that have gone to getting this book to the, and the tagline was epic marriage redemption story.

[598] Wow.

[599] This is how it was being touted.

[600] This is incredible.

[601] So I'm at the first event launching Love Warrior.

[602] The first event I've ever done for Love Warrior.

[603] So I'm out in the world and it's like it's this librarians convention and there's like thousands of librarians there.

[604] And I'm sitting at this table in this back room with a bunch of other writers before the event happens.

[605] And I look over into the doorway and Abby is standing in the doorway.

[606] Part of me hates telling the story because it's so cheesy and I can't.

[607] believe that this is the story I have to tell you.

[608] But what I have to tell you is that all of my being was like, there she is.

[609] And she was a stranger.

[610] She's a complete stranger.

[611] What the fuck was she doing there?

[612] She's not a librarian.

[613] She's a professional soccer player, many times decorated, two -time gold medal winner.

[614] Yes.

[615] She was launching a book too.

[616] She was launching her memoir.

[617] She was launching forward.

[618] And actually, this part is not in the book because I didn't know how to explain this because it was so weird, but it's our favorite family party story, which is that for some reason, when I saw her in the doorway, I stood up and opened my arms, which no one can understand to this day.

[619] I just, it was like I could not contain myself.

[620] So then I was standing up and had to figure out how to get back to the chair.

[621] Sure.

[622] Which was awkward.

[623] It was one of the most awkward moments in my life.

[624] Can I ask really quick, were you a fan of soccer?

[625] Did you know that she was?

[626] No. I I mean, my ex -husband was a semi -pro soccer player.

[627] Oh, my God.

[628] You got a type.

[629] I know.

[630] I know.

[631] So interesting, right?

[632] Same position?

[633] Did they play the same position?

[634] I don't think so.

[635] Oh, okay.

[636] I think Abby's in the front and Craig was in the back.

[637] Metaphor.

[638] Yeah, yeah.

[639] Hi, Craig.

[640] So, yeah.

[641] So then the crazy thing is that we started emailing back and forth.

[642] we spent a couple hours together in that room with all the librarians and then we both went our separate ways and then we started emailing each other and you know months later like i admitted to myself that i was in love with her and i told crag as close to possible from when i knew i told him and i disassembled my entire life and we had never even been in a room together alone like we had never seen each other from that day that we met at the Librarian's Convention.

[643] So that was wild.

[644] So you started your exit before you even started dating.

[645] Oh, yeah.

[646] No, I did the exit.

[647] I did the exit.

[648] Like, we both disassembled our entire lives.

[649] Uh -huh.

[650] And then after all of that, after having told my people, all the things, then we met in L .A. Wow.

[651] To like see if this was a thing.

[652] So since you had this baseline, your whole life of I'm crazy.

[653] Yeah.

[654] You know, that was part of your narrative.

[655] Were you thinking that during this?

[656] Like, I'm in love with someone.

[657] I met once in a room.

[658] Yeah, because some things are objectively crazy.

[659] That's one of them.

[660] This worked out, but we think we could all agree.

[661] It was crazy.

[662] It's extreme anyway.

[663] It's extreme.

[664] No, because it felt to me the only other time my life I've ever been as sure as I was with Abby was when I found that I was pregnant with Chase.

[665] So in that scenario, I found myself holding a positive pregnancy test on a bathroom floor, almost dead from addiction.

[666] Like, I had nothing left.

[667] I'd burned every bridge in my life.

[668] I was so sick.

[669] And there was just this, like, yes inside of me that was completely undeniable and in complete opposition to all of my reality, Right.

[670] There was nothing in my life that would have proven like, yes, you'd be a good mom.

[671] Like, of course, this makes sense.

[672] It made no sense.

[673] And I was 100 % sure that I was going to have Chase become a mom.

[674] And that's how I felt with Abby.

[675] It felt like, oh, I mean, a lot made sense to me suddenly.

[676] Maybe this is the reason that I've never been able to understand what love is.

[677] Like maybe this is a reason I've never been able to be intimate with another human being.

[678] Maybe this is the reason I've never been able to be intimate with another human being.

[679] Maybe this is the reason I've, felt like I've been slowly dying for inside of love for so long.

[680] It sounds crazy, but, you know, when I told Craig, it was like, I don't know if this thing's going to work out with Abby.

[681] Who the hell knows about that?

[682] I'm not leaving just for Abby.

[683] I'm leaving because now I know I can't pretend anymore that this is the thing.

[684] Like, the thing that we have is love.

[685] Like, I understand now that this isn't what that could be.

[686] So I wasn't leaving just because of Abby.

[687] I was leaving because I could no longer pretend that my marriage was.

[688] was real.

[689] In that moment, did that give you the forgiveness you had been hoping you could give him?

[690] Like when you were able to see her, it was like, oh, I can let this part go.

[691] I love that question.

[692] And I think, I think a lot about what forgiveness is through this process and now.

[693] And I think sometimes we just wait for forgiveness to just like fall upon us.

[694] Like forgiveness is a thing that just happens to us, but what I would keep saying to myself, like that, that low -level river of rage that I was describing to you, the narrative of that river was, how could he do this to me?

[695] Like, how could he abandon me like this?

[696] How could he?

[697] And what I realized after a while was, like, he'd already done it.

[698] Like, the question for me was, why do you keep doing this?

[699] Like, why are you abandoning yourself, right?

[700] The first time I felt real forgiveness for Craig was after our divorce mediation when we were in the elevator together going back down to the parking lot.

[701] And I looked over at him.

[702] And for the first time, I felt complete and total empathy and kindness and fondness for him.

[703] And I think that's because I had finally done the work to make myself safe.

[704] Right?

[705] Yeah, you wanted him to give you a feeling that he can't give you.

[706] Exactly.

[707] Exactly.

[708] Forgiveness has to be forged by you sometimes, by restoring whatever boundary.

[709] makes you feel unsafe.

[710] Yeah.

[711] You know?

[712] And Glennon, you talk a lot in your book about the knowing, which I love so much because I feel like I have a problem listening to my knowing because you have to kind of stop and really listen to your internal voices.

[713] Do you feel like that decision to end the marriage for good and then maybe start something with Abby was the first or perhaps second maybe the second being after you decided to have Chase and become a mom, the second.

[714] time you had actually listened to your knowing, or were you familiar with it from other small decisions?

[715] I started actually practicing that.

[716] A little while after I found myself on my bed at three o 'clock in the morning, Googling, should I stay with my husband who cheated on me, but is a good dad?

[717] Kristen, if she typed in should, the rest would fill in.

[718] Great.

[719] Side note, one time Dax Googled on my phone just to corner me and cage me, how to get away with murdering your husband.

[720] So it's permanently in her history.

[721] Just in case.

[722] That's so smart, Dax.

[723] Good job.

[724] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[725] Covering your track.

[726] So that was just a moment.

[727] It was like a rock bottom of having any sort of inner wisdom that I was Googling, like, what to do with the most important decision.

[728] of my life, right?

[729] I put the story in Untamed.

[730] My son was having friends over, and he had a bunch of boys and a bunch of girls over.

[731] I peeked my head in and said, is anybody hungry?

[732] And this really amazing thing happened, which is that all of the boys in the room, without taking their eyes off the TV, they just said, yes, okay, the girls did something completely different, okay?

[733] Every single girl in that room, there's probably six of them.

[734] They each took their eyes off the TV, and they started looking at each other's faces.

[735] Okay?

[736] Looking at each other's faces to find out if they themselves were hungry inside their own bodies, right?

[737] Okay?

[738] And then some kind of mental telepathy started happening, like between these children's faces, and then they somehow silently appointed pointed a spokesgirl.

[739] Okay, I still don't know how this happens, but this little freckled, sweet, braided child turns toward me and she says, no, thank you, we're fine.

[740] And this was right around the same time as the Googling, and I realized, oh, that's how this happened to me. Right?

[741] Like, because in our culture, in many ways, boys are taught in any moment of uncertainty to look inside themselves, find an answer, say it, right?

[742] And girls are taught to look outside themselves for consensus, for permission.

[743] I'll add just for my side of the boy spectrum, it's deeper than that.

[744] It's that indecision is weakness.

[745] So our endless threat is that we are weak and impotent.

[746] And so indecision is a sign of that.

[747] So we're fighting our thing, which is weakness.

[748] And that's what's happening.

[749] Yeah, that's it.

[750] Yeah.

[751] That is it.

[752] That's what happened in that TV room.

[753] So, and then this interesting thing happened, which that was right around when I was deciding what to do with Craig after the infidelity.

[754] And I have had this interesting Venn diagram going on in my life then publicly, which that I was a sort of a feminist person and a Christian person.

[755] That is a weird Venn diagram to have, right?

[756] So at that point, half the people were certain I should do one thing.

[757] And half the people were certain that I should do another thing, right?

[758] That's when I realized there is no right thing to do.

[759] Like, right is just culturally constructed, depending on which group you're in, right?

[760] So that's when I started practicing, literally going into my closet and sitting and trying to practice finding whatever this freaking knowing thing is that people talked about.

[761] And I'd been practicing for a long time.

[762] So I had been practiced trusting it with little things.

[763] And I think once you start practicing, trusting your own intuition and your own knowing with small things, it becomes unthinkable to not honor it, even with the big things.

[764] Yeah.

[765] Now, so your new book, Untamed, you start the book with, you're at this animal park, and they bring out a cheetah, and you're there with your kids, and they also have a golden retriever there or some dog that the cheetah's been raised with, and the two of them chase this.

[766] silly pink -stuffed animal attached to a Jeep.

[767] And the whole thing ultimately was you were having very strong emotional reaction to watching this cheetah live in a construct that's quite far from what her design was.

[768] And you start putting together these pieces that you like the cheetah and probably most women are tamed by this culture and that you seek to be untamed.

[769] Did I sum that up efficiently?

[770] It's not just women, everybody, just like what you just said, you know, the struggle that we have, which is that we're two different things.

[771] We are born with this individuality and uniqueness, and then over time, we have to be assimilated into groups.

[772] We're assigned things.

[773] You're a girl.

[774] You're a Doyle.

[775] You're a Christian.

[776] You're a whatever.

[777] You're straight.

[778] You're gay.

[779] You're straight.

[780] All these categories, right?

[781] And so we want that belonging of having that tribe or the tribe.

[782] that clan or that identity.

[783] But of course, it does start to cage us.

[784] All of the things that go along with being a girl, I just remember watching that cheetah and being like, oh, okay.

[785] So if a cheetah, if a wild animal could be tamed to forget who she is and think she's a lab that should chase dirty pink bunnies all day, then certainly a human being can be trained to chase things till they die.

[786] and forget who they are, right?

[787] Yeah.

[788] Another animal analogy that for whatever reason really registered with me is I was at the zoo and there was like a zookeeper next to me or something that worked at the zoo and I was watching them clean the elephants, right?

[789] And they chain the elephant's foot to this post in the ground, the steak, so it stays still while they clean it.

[790] And I said, couldn't the elephant pull that steak out of the ground?

[791] It's like, it's 10 ,000 pounds.

[792] And the guy goes, Oh, yeah, yeah.

[793] They totally can pull it out of the ground, but they don't know they can because they were hooked to it when they were babies when they couldn't pull it out of the ground.

[794] And they tried and tried and tried.

[795] And eventually they stopped trying.

[796] And then for the rest of their life, they'll never try to pull it out.

[797] And I was like, oh, my God.

[798] This is like, that for me is so relevant, you know.

[799] Same.

[800] Okay.

[801] And when you just said that, I just remembered there's this little zoo down the street and they have this.

[802] they're like called little monkey islands.

[803] So you get on this little boat and you drive around this thing of water and there's teeny islands where one monkey lives on each island.

[804] And my daughter said why don't they just like swim to each other can monkeys not swim?

[805] And the zookeeper said actually they can, they just don't know they can.

[806] Like they could get to each other.

[807] They just don't know that they can swim.

[808] It's heartbreaking.

[809] It's so interesting because beyond the lessons we're learning in this conversation, which is that we need to be kinder to animals.

[810] It's also that, you know, one thing that I feel like I've learned in my marriage with Dax, who I do truly believe is the perfect match for me because we are so in opposition about everything and he's constantly challenging me is that I feel all the feelings.

[811] I think feelings are for feeling.

[812] I'm completely raw and I'm constantly trying to, you know, figure out how not to feel everyone else's pain, but he often, or at least when he speaks to me, comes from a place of what the sports team was doing for your children, which is, yeah, but get through it.

[813] Be a part of this community.

[814] There are certain things you can't do at the dinner table, like sob about whatever article about Syria you read that day.

[815] Use that on your own time.

[816] Right now we're going to communicate.

[817] And it's like, I think what I've learned is that although I do want to develop all these feel all your feelings parts of Christ.

[818] in, I'm also really, really grateful that he has, it tamed wouldn't be the word, but I guess trained me to act to be a part of a team, kind of like what the soccer is doing for your kids, where you can talk about your feelings all day, but you still got to know how to work within the human race, which is that sometimes we all have to deal with our own shit and we have to sit in the pain and get over it and be a part of the team and work for a common goal.

[819] Yeah.

[820] Absolutely.

[821] That's the pattern in our house, too, Kristen.

[822] It's like that's really sad.

[823] And also what else can we talk about today?

[824] Abby says a lot of that.

[825] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[826] Well, I think what's great is, you know, not unlike you, Glennon, I've been with someone for almost 13 years that just people generally like more than me. So like whatever theory I have that I can win in a court case, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day because a million more people want to do her favor than me and they want to be around her.

[827] And it's challenged everything.

[828] The way I think of being responsible about money, I think she's completely irresponsible.

[829] And yet it just keeps coming in fucking buckets.

[830] And so then the more irresponsible she is, the more arrives for her to redistribute.

[831] So, you know.

[832] We have the same.

[833] We have the same.

[834] I'm always so.

[835] worried about money always if she gets three catchups i'm like why why three catchups like we only need one she orders too much pizza all the things and and the big things too and damned dax if if it doesn't work for her it just works and to be fair to Kristen her irresponsibility is giving to charity she's not well i mean thank you monica my number one wife thank you for defending just had to say no hold It's not, it's the generosity of spirit compared to the scarcity mindset.

[836] It's just, the scarcity person, because it's not just about money.

[837] It's about all the thing.

[838] It's about control.

[839] Oh, it's about time.

[840] It's about people being in our house.

[841] It's about, yeah, that everything's finite for me and everything has to be protected.

[842] And everyone's going to try to steal the stuff from you that you want to protect.

[843] Yes.

[844] And, but it's been great to be forced to live with someone to realize I don't end up with more of the stuff I'm trying to protect.

[845] I end up with less of it.

[846] It's so counterintuitive.

[847] I know.

[848] But here we are.

[849] I know.

[850] I have the same exact experience in my house.

[851] Glennon, can you talk a little bit?

[852] One thing that really struck me in Untamed is the way you, I guess, through your own experience, encourage people.

[853] to find their own knowing and they're sort of true untaming and what's inside them is recognizing what your memos were and acknowledging that you were given memos.

[854] Can you talk a little bit about sort of what memos are and how you read them and then burn them?

[855] Yeah.

[856] Well, I mean, I guess that I'll tell you a story about what I figured out that this might be an issue was that when I was deciding whether or not to pursue my relationship with Abby or stay in my marriage, which to me really felt like, okay, am I going to honor myself or abandon myself?

[857] That's how I was thinking of it.

[858] It wasn't just like Abby or Craig.

[859] It was like, am I going to honor this self or am I just going to freaking bury it forever again?

[860] You know?

[861] And I really did in the beginning decide I'm going to bury it.

[862] I'm going to stay in this marriage because I believed back then that a good mother does not hurt her children, right?

[863] That a good mother puts all of her kids' needs above hers.

[864] And so that's what I was going to do.

[865] And one day I was braiding my little girl's hair, and she was looking at herself in the mirror.

[866] And she looked at me and she said something like, Mom, can I do my hair like yours?

[867] And something about the way she said it just made me think, oh, every time this little girl looks at me, she's asking a question, right?

[868] She's thinking, she's asking, how does a woman do her hair?

[869] How does a woman love?

[870] How does a woman live?

[871] And I realized, I'm staying in this marriage for her, but would I want this marriage for her?

[872] And if I wouldn't want this marriage for her, then why am I modeling bad love and calling that good mothering, right?

[873] And I realized that the reason I was doing that is because, I was given a message, what we would call memos in the book, and the memo was a good mother is a martyr, right?

[874] A good mother just slowly dies.

[875] She just buries her own dreams and her emotions and her ambition and her desire forever.

[876] And she just calls that love, right?

[877] And I just started thinking really hard about that message in that memo.

[878] And I started realizing, I don't think that's true.

[879] Right?

[880] Because what a burden for children of martyr mothers to bear, right?

[881] To know that they are the reason that their mother stopped living, right?

[882] To know that if they ever have children one day, they will be required to stop living too, because if we show our kids that the epitome of motherhood is martyrdom, that's what they will try to live up to.

[883] Right?

[884] And I think this is why Carl Young said the greatest burden that a child can bear is the unlived life of a parent.

[885] Right?

[886] So that's when I realized like there are these memos that we get, one being a good mother is a martyr, that we really have to burn and write our own memos.

[887] What I changed mind to was that a good mother is not a martyr.

[888] A good mother is a model.

[889] It is not my duty as a mother to show my children how to slowly die, but how to bravely live until the day they die.

[890] And it's my duty to show them that real love does not ever require the lover or the beloved to disappear, right?

[891] In fact, it always requires the lover or the beloved to emerge fully.

[892] And the truth that I really believe is that our children will only allow themselves to live as fully as we allow ourselves to live.

[893] In fact, it becomes our duty to never settle for a situation or a relationship that is less true and beautiful than the one we would want for our kids.

[894] the idea of this is that we all want to be good.

[895] We want to be good because we're good and we want to be good and that's fine.

[896] But if we default to the cultural ideas of what is good, then I know for a woman, all of those messages will tell us to disappear, right?

[897] If you want to be a good girl, you have to be quiet and pretty and smile.

[898] If you want to be a good wife according to cultural ideals, accommodating and pleasing, and you want to be a good coworker.

[899] You have to be grateful and a team player.

[900] if you want to be a good mother, you have to slowly disappear.

[901] All of the messages to girls will tell them to get smaller and smaller.

[902] Right?

[903] So what all of Untamed is about what all of my life has been about for the last decade is really what Walt Whitman said, which is that if we want to live examined lives, conscious, intentional lives, we have to re -examine every single thing we've been taught in the world, in a book, in a classroom, in religion, and dismiss everything that insults our own soul.

[904] So this is what it means.

[905] It's just that I know I want to be good, but I want to define what good means for me in terms of womanhood, in terms of sisterhood, in terms of marriage, faith, all of it.

[906] So that I'm not defaulting to cultural definitions of good that will leave me trapped the rest of my life.

[907] So you don't ever worry about, like, because I'm sure some people at first glance could take these messages and be like, well, wait, what she's saying, that you're not supposed to be grateful if you're a coworker?

[908] because then you're caged and tamed and you're not supposed to be accommodating if you're in a marriage, because then you're caged and tamed?

[909] Like, do you ever worry that anyone could take these messages or that anyone's receiving them as like, shit should hit the fan and women should rage?

[910] And then we're all untamed and there's anarchy?

[911] I mean, I think that that just depends on, first of all, I think it depends on what you think of when you think of untamed.

[912] I think people think of wild when they think of untamed, and then they think of something that's like that's dangerous, you know, or bad, I think that when I think of wild, I think of something that's really beautiful and true and also maybe a little bit dangerous.

[913] I mean, I think that one of the really hard things for women is that we are always taught that we need to be grateful.

[914] I mean, had I done what a lot of people were telling me to do in my marriage, which is just be grateful.

[915] It's good enough.

[916] I had a marriage that a lot of women are trained to think is good enough, right?

[917] The idea that you could want more, I think, is a good thing.

[918] I mean, you guys, like, the first story I ever learned about being a woman and God was this, okay?

[919] I was, I think, in second grade, and my teacher, my CCD teacher, it's like Catholic Sunday school, called us down to the carpet.

[920] And she said, okay, I'm going to teach you about how God made people.

[921] And she said, um, so God made Adam and Adam and God were best friends.

[922] Okay.

[923] And then Eve came because Adam got bored and needed a helper.

[924] And everything was perfect when it was just God and Adam.

[925] But then Eve wanted more.

[926] She couldn't just be grateful.

[927] She wanted more.

[928] And she went for it.

[929] And then all hell broke loose all over the earth and suffering was unleashed forever.

[930] Go with God.

[931] Girls.

[932] Okay.

[933] Like this is what.

[934] the message is, right?

[935] Like, honestly, Kristen, that doesn't scare me at all because I feel like women are grateful enough.

[936] Every woman I know is grateful.

[937] It's not like we're either ungrateful or we want more.

[938] Like, it's okay to be grateful for what you have and also want more.

[939] I mean, I know so many women who have this, like, longing, this like deep longing inside of them for true or more beautiful relationships, for true or more beautiful communities, for true or more beautiful careers.

[940] and they just won't admit their discontent or their longing because, I don't know, because they think that they should just be fine with good enough.

[941] For me, the distinction is you're just asking for the examination of yourself and what you want and what you need.

[942] But if you want and need to be accommodating, if that feels true to you, if that feels like your best self, that's okay.

[943] You're not saying all these things are bad.

[944] You're just saying this is the program and take a second to examine that program.

[945] and see whether it's really working for you, whether it's fulfilling you.

[946] Because some parts of it might be, and that's okay, too.

[947] Yeah.

[948] Well, and also the idea that we all have different conditioning.

[949] Yeah.

[950] I mean, my family, it was very important for children and for me to be sweet and quiet and accommodating and grateful.

[951] Somebody else might have a completely different conditioning or program, right?

[952] Yeah.

[953] I have a similar thought that Kristen does, which is the potential.

[954] risk is, well, guess what?

[955] Living in a society in general comes with eating a lot of shit.

[956] There's some communal benefits.

[957] It's the social contract.

[958] It's like, yes, I'm not going to shit on the street because I know someone else has to deal with it.

[959] So, you know, on some level, I think we're aware that we're all going to have to take it on the chin to just coexist, to be in a family together.

[960] It's endless compromise.

[961] It's not just what I want to do.

[962] it's there's three other people that also need to get their slice of the pie and so yeah i wonder if the fear on first glance is like everyone should just be true to themselves and is it even possible for everyone to be true to themselves yet still live in a society where we get the benefits of that well i mean to me that just sounds like the slippery slope compromise like we can't just all go around being what will happen like yeah that's it just feels like what's the alternative like i'm just talking about not slowly dying inside.

[963] Like, I'm talking about being in a relationship and when you have a feeling or a need, not burying it, right?

[964] We can't go around in a family all being true to ourselves.

[965] Like, what if we can?

[966] Like, what if in every conversation, we have created communities where people actually do feel safe bringing their full self to the table, right?

[967] Like, where people actually do feel safe saying, oh, actually, like, when you said that, I felt something and I'm going to say it.

[968] It doesn't mean like people are going to start shitting in the street.

[969] It just means, it just means like people are going to have safe spaces to bring more of themselves to tables.

[970] So they don't have to keep swallowing themselves over and over again.

[971] But again, not to beat a dead horse, but I really would like to shit in the street.

[972] It's just so convenient sometimes.

[973] I'm there already and I don't want to run to a bathroom.

[974] Well, we're going to need you to stay stay tuned then.

[975] Yeah, for real.

[976] But you're equating and what I think a lot of people do and our condition to do is equate being true to yourself with being selfish.

[977] Like we think we're being selfish if we have a need.

[978] Well, it's also the idea of, I think it gets to like, what do you believe about people at the base of things?

[979] Because if you're afraid that like if people are true to themselves, everything's going to go to shit, then that really does kind of reveal a root belief that people are bad.

[980] Right?

[981] Like what I actually believe believe is that when you get to the truthiest truth of things is that people are good.

[982] Like, I was at a speaking event recently and somebody said, what?

[983] We can't just go around doing what we want.

[984] Like, I want to drink a bottle of Malibu every night.

[985] Can I just do that?

[986] But the fact is that, like, of course not.

[987] And the reason why she asked that is because she didn't trust that belief.

[988] Like, she didn't trust that desire or she wouldn't have asked it, right?

[989] Like, what I think is that since we live in a capitalist culture, is that what their job is to take these basic human needs that we have and attach a product to it, right?

[990] So the idea of the bottle of Malibu is there's a desire beneath it.

[991] The desire beneath it is just for rest, for an escape.

[992] If you don't trust that desire, then you go beneath it to find the good, real true thing that you need.

[993] I mean, what I believe is that people are better the freer they are.

[994] I actually believe that.

[995] And I think we need to create communities, relationships, families.

[996] nations, all of it, where people do feel safe bringing their full self to the table.

[997] I agree.

[998] I agree.

[999] Let's talk about religion for two seconds.

[1000] Because I feel like initially when Kristen was reading your stuff, I think you were still bridging a gap or trying to make peace with multiple things that to me on the surface seemed contradictory.

[1001] And I know that you've had like an evolution and I don't know how to sum up where you're at now or maybe even where you were when I was first.

[1002] hearing passages.

[1003] But I did hear you say something recently that I felt like was approaching how I look at it because obviously I'm in this program that's you're supposed to, you know, requires you to believe in a higher power.

[1004] I've got all sorts of workarounds for that.

[1005] I don't make the sun and moon rise as some other force.

[1006] Gravity does that.

[1007] It's more powerful than me. But I guess when I'm doing the work where I'm asking for God's will to be known and for me to do God's will, what I find and what I'm shocked that other people don't have the confidence in is that I know the right thing.

[1008] I've always known the right thing.

[1009] I don't need to pray for divine inspiration.

[1010] I can feel it.

[1011] I often do things in opposition to that because I'm a selfish, greedy creature and I want to stockpile everything I'm afraid of not having.

[1012] But the voice is in me. I know how to exist in harmony with other people in other people.

[1013] creatures and on this planet.

[1014] And there's great harmony in this solar system and in this universe.

[1015] And I know when I'm in discord with that harmony and I can look for that.

[1016] So I'm just curious, you know, where you started and where you're at currently.

[1017] Well, I mean, I guess I feel the same way as you do.

[1018] I mean, I don't feel like there's something necessarily outside of me that I need to pray to.

[1019] But I do feel like there's something inside of me that I can get more deeply connected to when I'm quiet, I guess, when I'm not, like, reaching for all of the shit that I'd reach for to numb it out.

[1020] So I guess that it's similar, right?

[1021] What you would say, I just know, you know, I know what to do.

[1022] Like, that's what I would call, like, the divine in me. Whatever that thing is.

[1023] What would you call it?

[1024] Like, intuition or something?

[1025] Like, what would you call, if you had to name it?

[1026] Yeah, I guess it's, for me, it's when I'm not scared.

[1027] I can hear the voice.

[1028] So when I'm scared or threatened or frightened, the other voice that is to protect my selfish, animalistic needs and desires, that's the only voice I can hear.

[1029] But when I feel totally safe, I can hear the not scared answer.

[1030] Yeah.

[1031] Same.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] Same.

[1034] Like, this is exactly, I mean, it's one of my favorite things to talk about because Abby and I talk about it constantly.

[1035] because she, like, if I said I'm praying, she'll say, so you're talking to yourself again?

[1036] Like, we have, we have, like, completely different, but she's so fascinated by it.

[1037] You know, she's, she's so fascinated by this faith thing.

[1038] I mean, all I know, Dax, is that, like, even when I was waste, like, really sick and wasted all the time, I used to sit outside and just, like, talk to, I don't know who.

[1039] I don't know.

[1040] Something, my better self, my heart, something, some weeness.

[1041] is all that I can say, I can describe it as a weeness.

[1042] Like, I never think it's just me. I just feel like a connection to something else.

[1043] But I, and I've always felt like this spark that has something to do with God or the divine or magic or I don't know what it is.

[1044] I think it's kind of like if you feel like you're an artist.

[1045] And then you go to an art class and you sit down at a desk and this really mean teacher gives you a coloring page and tells you that you have to color inside the lines.

[1046] And if you mess up, they're going to shame you and they're going to kick you out.

[1047] That's how I felt about religion, right?

[1048] I felt like I had a spark.

[1049] I was meant to be like some sort of divine, I don't know.

[1050] And then I went to religion and it was all about like coloring inside the lines.

[1051] And then after a while, I just lost the spark.

[1052] And it took me basically to stop going to art class for a very long time, like to stop going to places where people pretended to know what faith was.

[1053] getting out of the institution of all of that helped me kind of reconnect to that spark, certainly.

[1054] I don't know.

[1055] Where I am now is that I certainly do not, by any stretch of the imagination, believe that God has to do with church, right?

[1056] I think there are two completely separate things.

[1057] I don't believe that faith to me is like some allegiance to a set of rules or dogma that people made up millennia ago to control people.

[1058] And yet, like, if the question is, like, is there something, my answer is always going to be like, yes.

[1059] I don't know.

[1060] That's a bell.

[1061] That's how you feel about, right?

[1062] And I'm always interested in kind of how you, because when we met, she was definitely Christian by all stretches.

[1063] is we were driving in Hawaii.

[1064] I can remember the exact place on the road we were driving.

[1065] And I said, do you believe in Jesus?

[1066] And she goes, yeah.

[1067] And I go, well, not that there was a man named Jesus Christ.

[1068] I think we all agree on that, but that he was the son of God.

[1069] And then he came here for him.

[1070] And she goes, yeah.

[1071] And I was like, oh, okay.

[1072] And for the first time ever, I was not like, oh, fuck.

[1073] How am I going to do this?

[1074] How will I raise kids with this person?

[1075] I was just like, oh, okay, that's her.

[1076] I'm not that way.

[1077] And that's plenty fine.

[1078] And I wasn't panicked about it, which was new.

[1079] That would have freaked me out before that.

[1080] But anyways, it's evolved.

[1081] I like checking in with her.

[1082] Because we also have friends, we have this friend Amy where I don't believe in God.

[1083] But by God, I can see it in her.

[1084] Like, I can see that she has specifically Jesus in her heart.

[1085] And it's doing wonders.

[1086] And I'm not in denial of that.

[1087] It's not for me, but it's clearly for her.

[1088] And I love.

[1089] it in her and yeah i try to check in with bell to see like how her path is i remember that specific stretch of road as well dax but what's odd is that i had a lot of fear in that moment of saying that out loud because it wasn't my truest self because i realized oh i went to catholic school i know the answer to repeat right now i know how to get an a on this test and that's saying yes and you to your credit, Dax, you brought me to the dark side, and you have exposed me to a ton of different ideas and the powers in the universe that come from science.

[1090] And I fully invest.

[1091] That's what I would bet on.

[1092] If I were at a, if I were at a table in Vegas, that's what I would bet on.

[1093] But I do also, there is something magic.

[1094] And I don't know how to describe.

[1095] Magic is probably the best word.

[1096] or, you know, Glenn and you were saying weeness, I would say like oneness.

[1097] There's something about the Buddhist saying that if you see a bus coming and someone's in the way, you push him out of the way, not because he was going to get hit because you were going to get hit.

[1098] Because there is something intertwined.

[1099] We are a giant friendship bracelet.

[1100] And I'm sort of walk around the earth a little shocked that other people can't see that.

[1101] And that's what I do feel like is my superpower.

[1102] Not in a way to like pat myself on the back.

[1103] Like I have all this knowledge, but in a way of like, oh my God, I am really grateful I can see this because I make decisions that I like because I see how we're woven together.

[1104] You know, and I do have to police myself a lot because, again, like you said, Glenn and I have trouble distinguishing my pain from other people's pain.

[1105] I would often sit on the bed crying about something that wasn't mine and Dax would say, you're being very selfish right now.

[1106] If you're hurting about this issue, get off the bed and do something about it.

[1107] Donate money, fix a problem, whatever, but nobody's benefiting from you crying right now.

[1108] And I think I've come to this medium in that of going, I might need a couple minutes to cry about, you know, world peace or whatever it is that's on my mind that day.

[1109] And then also I'm going to be active about it.

[1110] And that's what's going to start healing me. But yeah, it is interesting.

[1111] And I've almost put less emphasis on organizing my thoughts about who created us, why we're here, blah, blah, blah.

[1112] But I do find, you know, last night, Dax, I was talking to Lincoln and her top bunk.

[1113] And she was saying, I've been asking myself all these questions about what even are my eyes?

[1114] Why are they seeing?

[1115] What is Delta?

[1116] Is she even here?

[1117] Are you here?

[1118] Am I here?

[1119] And I said, you're having an existential crisis.

[1120] And she said, yeah, but it feels crowded.

[1121] And I don't like all those questions.

[1122] And they hurt my head sometimes.

[1123] She said, do I ever wonder too much?

[1124] Can you wonder too much?

[1125] And I said, no way.

[1126] I said, just ask all the questions.

[1127] And it, you know, made me happy that she was sort of this hybrid of you and I, that she wants the answers, but I also know she's a really sensitive being.

[1128] I would be curious to know Monica's perspective on this.

[1129] Like, Monica, what do you believe?

[1130] Can you put that into words?

[1131] Because I don't think I've ever heard you talk about this.

[1132] I never grew up religious at all.

[1133] In fact, my parents, I mean, technically the religion is Hindu.

[1134] which we didn't do anything, we didn't go anywhere.

[1135] And I was really at that age, of course, like pushing aside anything that was other.

[1136] So I would never have claimed that.

[1137] Even if I believed it, I would never have claimed it.

[1138] And I didn't know enough to believe it.

[1139] But I agree that there is a force I can't name that is happening.

[1140] And I've had too many experiences in life, whether it's just like the secret.

[1141] I've had too many, even just being connected with you two, where I, I think a lot of people already know the story, but I was obsessed with Veronica Mars and I loved it and I would watch video, I mean, this sounds just crazy at this point, but I would watch videos of Kristen and I was like, oh, I just feel like I could be really, I just feel like we could be friends.

[1142] And you were right.

[1143] I know, but do you know how many people think that?

[1144] Now I know because I get the emails.

[1145] That's true.

[1146] But like a billion people think that.

[1147] But I, I just, like, had this sense.

[1148] And then all this, like, I've had so many full circle moments in life enough to make me feel like there's no way there's not something else happening.

[1149] And I don't know what that is.

[1150] And I don't, I don't even need to put a name to it.

[1151] Like, I don't feel.

[1152] Well, I am.

[1153] We are living in my dad's simulation.

[1154] So that probably answers the question.

[1155] But I don't, I don't feel the need to put a name to it.

[1156] I really don't.

[1157] I don't have this obsession with, like, figuring out what it is.

[1158] I just feel kind of safe knowing there's a something.

[1159] Isn't that wonderful, though?

[1160] It is.

[1161] That's what we're all saying.

[1162] Like, if you would have asked me 10 years ago, you guys, I would have had so many things to say.

[1163] I would have said words and then more words and then additionally words and some more words.

[1164] I don't care.

[1165] I don't care at all.

[1166] There's no parts of me that care.

[1167] If anybody starts talking about what they know, then I know they just don't know.

[1168] They don't know.

[1169] They don't know.

[1170] Well, then you would not like being around me. Oh, I claim to know everything.

[1171] Jesus.

[1172] Well, Glennon, I really want to do this in person with you, too.

[1173] You think we can do it in person?

[1174] Yay!

[1175] Yes, please.

[1176] I mean, I'm just looking at you guys and I'm like, I just wish I was in sweatpants in your living room.

[1177] And I feel like we would probably be a really fun double date because Kristen would probably be really drawn to you and Abby and I would probably be really drawn to each other.

[1178] other.

[1179] We all know that.

[1180] Everyone knows that.

[1181] Don't box us in.

[1182] You don't know what's going to happen.

[1183] I like Abby, too.

[1184] Okay, wonderful.

[1185] Thanks so much for doing this.

[1186] I've listened to a ton of untamed.

[1187] I really, really enjoyed it.

[1188] And, you know, my wife can't speak high enough about it.

[1189] And so I thank you for what you're doing.

[1190] And I hope we get to do this again.

[1191] Thank you guys for being who you are.

[1192] I love you guys.

[1193] Love you too.

[1194] Thanks, Glennon.

[1195] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1196] Oh, boy.

[1197] Your mic got real limp.

[1198] Yeah, really went flaccid there for a second.

[1199] Should we tell everyone we were just watching the Mark Twain Prize of Chappelle?

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] Oh, my gosh, gosh, gosh.

[1202] Now, how do you feel when you watch it?

[1203] I love it.

[1204] You just love him, right?

[1205] And I love him, and I love that he's being celebrated.

[1206] You know, I was thinking we were watching it because a few episodes ago we had this talk about genius.

[1207] Yeah.

[1208] Uh -huh.

[1209] And I was saying, I don't think genius is worth it.

[1210] Uh -huh.

[1211] Like, I don't think the world needs that level of genius if it comes with a human cost.

[1212] Uh -huh.

[1213] Yeah, we were talking specifically about an actor, right?

[1214] Oh, Marlon Brando, yeah.

[1215] Yes.

[1216] Though, I have to admit, when it comes to comedy, I think I have a different person.

[1217] Oh, you do.

[1218] You do.

[1219] Okay.

[1220] It's fine.

[1221] By the way, you're drawing no comparison because Chappelle's a lovely guy.

[1222] Well, that's the whole, that's where I'll get to.

[1223] Oh, okay.

[1224] Sorry.

[1225] I was having this conversation with someone else recently and I was starting to think about comedies and comedic moments that I think are brilliant.

[1226] And I was like, oh, I mean, yeah, if we didn't have that, the world is worse.

[1227] Like, I feel that.

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] So it's probably not fair.

[1230] It's just because I care more about comedy and I feel like I know more about that world.

[1231] Yes.

[1232] So it's not fair because I, oh, I was saying like Picasso, yeah, I know he's a genius, but when I'm at the museum, the second best person to me is like, sure.

[1233] Your life would not be measurably worse if Picasso had not been in it.

[1234] Yes.

[1235] But maybe your life would be measurably worse without Chappelle.

[1236] Yeah, when I was watching the Mark Twain thing, I was like, no, I think if he was a huge asshole, I'd still want him.

[1237] To do what he does.

[1238] To do what he does, because it's so special.

[1239] But he's not a huge asshole.

[1240] To our knowledge, he is not an asshole.

[1241] And so even better.

[1242] Yeah, I watch it thinking all those feelings and then additionally, just tons of self -loathing.

[1243] Because he's so good.

[1244] He's so good.

[1245] And I've not dedicated myself in any way to becoming great at anything.

[1246] And I'm like, oh, that guy is so special and I am so insignificant.

[1247] That's a bad takeaway.

[1248] It is, but it's the truth.

[1249] I'm just telling you the truth.

[1250] I understand that's how you feel.

[1251] And I'm just wondering, because you're a woman and he's much older than you.

[1252] But the fact that he and I are both guys from the Midwest who are roughly the same age, I feel like, well, I should have been able to be that good if I tried hard enough.

[1253] That's my theory always is like, I'm.

[1254] capable of doing all these things.

[1255] I just haven't put any time or energy in.

[1256] And the older I get, the less, I think that's true.

[1257] Right.

[1258] Like, I'm not capable of that.

[1259] Of what he does.

[1260] You don't certainly know what he does.

[1261] You're capable of what you do.

[1262] It just feels like what he does is so much more important than worth doing.

[1263] I felt this way, though, when I watched that amazing HBO documentary about Dr. Dre and...

[1264] Oh, yeah.

[1265] And Iveen.

[1266] Yeah, Jimmy Iveen.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] I just, at the end of it, I was like, I, I am impotent.

[1269] I am, I am useless.

[1270] I haven't accomplished anything.

[1271] Mind you the happier.

[1272] You can't think that.

[1273] I know.

[1274] You've accomplished way more than someone.

[1275] I'm telling you, look, it, logic is not part of fear.

[1276] Fear rarely resembles reality.

[1277] You're right.

[1278] I just look at those, when I see something that I'm so blown away with those people.

[1279] I know.

[1280] And I just think, God, I just fucking, what did I do?

[1281] When you see what is capable on a human being, even like when you watch the Olympics, you're like, wow, that's what a human body can do?

[1282] Yeah.

[1283] I'm not even in the 10th percentile of what that human's doing on the gymnastics, Matt.

[1284] But here's the other thing.

[1285] Okay.

[1286] I guess I'm going to out you.

[1287] Okay.

[1288] We started this.

[1289] Oh, no. I was afraid you're going to bring this up.

[1290] Before we turned it on.

[1291] I'm going to have to say a lot of disclaimers before you say this.

[1292] Before we turned it on.

[1293] Because we knew we were going to watch it.

[1294] And my understanding of the Mark Twain Prize was simply I knew Will Ferrell won it.

[1295] Uh -huh.

[1296] That's all you knew.

[1297] That's all I knew about it, really.

[1298] But you knew it was incredibly, incredibly.

[1299] Prestigious.

[1300] Yeah.

[1301] It was very prestigious.

[1302] Esteemed, prestigious, hoity tooty.

[1303] And so I admitted to you, now regretfully, that I wasted at least a half hour of one of my days on planet Earth, considering if I have been nominated for a Mark Twain.

[1304] Okay, I can't make a clearer point.

[1305] I have no illusion that I would ever get nominated for a mark.

[1306] I know I don't qualify.

[1307] That's not the point.

[1308] I know I do not deserve nor do.

[1309] I think I'll ever get nominated for a prize.

[1310] Right.

[1311] But regardless, I allowed myself to fantasize for 30 minutes that I had been nominated for a Mark Twain Award.

[1312] If you even get, I don't even know if it's a nominator.

[1313] I just, I found out I won.

[1314] I guess you just win it.

[1315] You just get it.

[1316] You're not like, it's not a shootout.

[1317] It wasn't like it was Chappelle and Chris Rock and Chappelle won.

[1318] Well, maybe whoever's making the decision is like deciding.

[1319] Mark Twain.

[1320] Yeah, Mark Twosomably.

[1321] But anyways, I gave it a good 30 minutes of thought.

[1322] And I had told you, I had decided.

[1323] I wouldn't accept.

[1324] Right.

[1325] Right.

[1326] Well, I was coming from a place that it would be healthiest for me to not desire a public accolade and a prestigious award.

[1327] Like, I just thought that it would be healthier for me not to desire something like that.

[1328] Yeah.

[1329] Because what does it mean?

[1330] And you said it was going to be inconvenient to have to.

[1331] Well, and then I started thinking, all right, so I don't believe in it conceptually for a person to be outed as being brilliant, although I just enjoyed the hell out of watching Chappelle be brilliant.

[1332] Regardless, in this moment, I was like, it's not anything good for me. And then it would just be very inconvenient.

[1333] You got to fly to D .C. I'd have to get a tuxedo that I own three and they never fit when I try to put them on.

[1334] They got to get an alter.

[1335] And then I got to travel with it means I got to pack a, you know, I got to check in a bag.

[1336] I sound just like Howard Stern now.

[1337] Uh -huh.

[1338] The simplest things for him are so inconvenient.

[1339] But anyways, he's probably won it.

[1340] He probably.

[1341] I wonder if he's thought about turning it down.

[1342] He won't.

[1343] He'll accept it.

[1344] He'll accept the shit out of it.

[1345] Like everyone does because it's a huge honor.

[1346] Well, what I'm now now having why.

[1347] the whole thing.

[1348] When I've come away with this, forget the award.

[1349] I stand by that it's weird.

[1350] It's just weird.

[1351] These awards are weird.

[1352] I'm going to stand by that.

[1353] But it became a big celebration of Chappelle with all these other people I love watching and to hear their personal experiences with him.

[1354] It just became a fun trip down his life.

[1355] Yeah.

[1356] The reason I brought up that was because you're saying two things in opposition to each other.

[1357] Okay.

[1358] Paradoxical?

[1359] You're saying that you shouldn't really be celebrated for your.

[1360] brilliance and like it's fine well hold on a second um you are celebrated and i believe in that and the celebration is you have a big audience and people come see you and you put on a good show and they're happy and you're happy with the work and that's that's the accomplishment the celebration that's what i'm saying yeah now when now a committee of people decided that that thing you did was not worthy of this award i'm a little on the fence about that but then you're also saying you watch it and you're like oh i'm a loser i haven't done anything oh sure i added the loser part but no no that's that's what i'm feeling yeah yeah i'm also calling myself a pussy no that's part of it yeah yeah yeah all the old baggage from um playground comes out yeah absolutely oh god yeah every pejorative i can launch it myself so you're saying in one hand you're saying oh it's just a thing and it doesn't really matter and everyone's doing their thing and who cares yeah and then you're also then saying oh i haven't done anything yeah i'm a loser and a p word and an f word But when I watch it...

[1361] Like if you were watching Mindy, would you be taunting yourself of like, why can't, why didn't I do what she did?

[1362] No. I mean, I also feel pretty good about what I'm doing.

[1363] You should.

[1364] You're doing wonderful.

[1365] I think...

[1366] I'm not trying to plant that seat.

[1367] I'm wondering if you would think that.

[1368] No, I know.

[1369] But I'm just saying, like, I don't feel complacent.

[1370] I feel like I feel like I'm.

[1371] still pushing myself?

[1372] Yeah.

[1373] And I still have a long way to go.

[1374] Yes, I'm coming down the mountain.

[1375] That's the difference between you and I. Like, I'm watching that thing.

[1376] What am I kidding myself?

[1377] In the next 13 years, I'm going to become one of the greatest stand -ups of all time.

[1378] But why do you need to?

[1379] I wish you had what I currently have, which is like, but I'm doing a lot.

[1380] I'm proud of what I'm doing and I like my life.

[1381] Yeah.

[1382] Well, all those things are true.

[1383] I know.

[1384] I know.

[1385] Yeah, for me too.

[1386] I love my life.

[1387] I have tons of gratitude for the work I do have.

[1388] And your day -to -day, the people around you and how you spend it and...

[1389] It's a huge win.

[1390] It's fulfilling.

[1391] You're not just, you know.

[1392] Is it foe -filling or full -filling?

[1393] Full.

[1394] Okay.

[1395] Did I say -ful -filling?

[1396] I don't know, but when I write it, I'm always kidding.

[1397] Why, what is fulfilling?

[1398] Nothing.

[1399] That's not a word?

[1400] It's filling with, um, your enemies, or, or your enemies.

[1401] Fofilling.

[1402] Yeah.

[1403] Is fulfilling a word?

[1404] No. It's not.

[1405] Moving on.

[1406] But I want you to be proud of yourself.

[1407] And, you know why you, you have a responsibility to be proud of yourself because there are so many people who would die to be doing what you're doing and be in your position most certainly and all i'm doing is rediscovering the lesson that i learn every few days which is comparison is the end of my gratitude and my happiness and all that the thief of happiness that's that Pinterest quote yeah i can't help but watch him and be jealous of how talented he is i feel like i should have pushed harder and been better and spent more less time off -roading and more time writing or something?

[1408] Would you have been happier?

[1409] No!

[1410] Exactly.

[1411] I don't want No, that's the other great irony.

[1412] No, I know.

[1413] You wouldn't be happier.

[1414] I'm shocked because I'm a jealous person.

[1415] So I'm surprised I can't relate to you in this because when I watch that, I don't have any jealousy.

[1416] I only have awe.

[1417] Admiration.

[1418] Yeah.

[1419] Well, I have a bunch of that too.

[1420] Yeah.

[1421] I just think he's the coolest dude ever.

[1422] I think he's a 13 on the soul spectrum.

[1423] yeah he might be the high water mark i believe like the closer you are in proximity to someone the more you compare yeah yeah well i guess it's just the it's the NBA analogy which is we're both in the NBA by a lot of measures but he is michael jordan and i'm like you know yeah i just can't i don't care less about basketball so it doesn't that analogy doesn't hold a lot of water for you like to me chappelle is more impressive than michael jordan so that's more i mean that's a big statement.

[1424] Well, I just don't care about that.

[1425] He would love to hear that.

[1426] You should have come out on stage during that war and you use that one sentence.

[1427] Dave Chappelle is more impressive than Michael Jordan.

[1428] And then you leave and everyone.

[1429] And they'll be like, who's that?

[1430] It goes crazy.

[1431] Someone came in from off the street?

[1432] I mean, I am jealous, but I still have hope for myself.

[1433] You should.

[1434] You should.

[1435] You're still climbing the mountain.

[1436] I'm falling off the other side.

[1437] No, you're not.

[1438] You have a lot of time left.

[1439] You're going to have that epigenome thing, and you're going to anti -age, and then you're going to take that one sorcerer stone, and then you're going to live forever.

[1440] What a great segue, because here's another preposterous thing I spent about 40 minutes this morning thinking about the epigenome thing.

[1441] I spent my whole morning thinking about this.

[1442] I'm like, okay, so I'm going to get this procedure.

[1443] They're going to erase my flawed epigenome.

[1444] It's going to start reading my DNA perfectly, and I'm going to be 20.

[1445] Then I thought, what happens to old growth muscle?

[1446] Like, I've been working out for 20 years at this point, and the physical shape of my body is now different than it was in my 20s.

[1447] I had to, like, train it and have old growth muscle, layer after layer of old, dead, rigid muscle that's in there.

[1448] Ew.

[1449] So I was wondering, great, I'll have, like, a youthful face, but am I going to be doughy and...

[1450] What?

[1451] I'm saying when I was 20, my body sucked in many ways.

[1452] Oh, I see.

[1453] Yes, like, it took years of, like, training my muscle memory to respond to exercise, and it comes.

[1454] kind of does now.

[1455] Oh.

[1456] But it took a decade before that started happening.

[1457] And I was like, is that gone?

[1458] And then I started, you know, I'd rather look ugly and have a good body.

[1459] Oh, man. I spent so much time.

[1460] General worry.

[1461] Yeah, worry.

[1462] If that's not a sign that my life's too easy and I have too much money, I'm like, I'm panicking about whether or not my aging, reversing procedure is going to take away some of my muscle mass. Oh, my goodness.

[1463] This is a problem.

[1464] And then I'm jealous of Chappelle at the same time.

[1465] Anyways, Glennon Doyle.

[1466] Glennon, Glenn.

[1467] Okay.

[1468] So you said Abby is a two -time gold medal winner.

[1469] She is.

[1470] Yeah.

[1471] I just wanted to give you a boost.

[1472] Women's soccer.

[1473] I think she's in the famous pitcher where they all rip their jerseys off and they're wearing their sports presiers.

[1474] What if all of them are wearing sports presiers, but one of them was wearing like a Vicki secret, like lace bra?

[1475] Like maybe her was wearing big enough that she required an actual athletic bra to play.

[1476] And so she's like, why would I wear this big cumbersome sports bra?

[1477] I just wear my lacy, Vicki.

[1478] And then no one talked about what was going to happen.

[1479] And either one of two things could happen.

[1480] Either everyone has their tops off except for her.

[1481] And she's just in her jersey and people think she's a prude or she bangs it off.

[1482] And she's in like a lacy, sexy top.

[1483] And everyone's in sports receivers.

[1484] You wouldn't because I know from being on a sports team.

[1485] Yeah.

[1486] That, like, you'd be changing in the locker room and everyone would be putting on their bras and you wouldn't.

[1487] You'd feel weird.

[1488] You think?

[1489] Yeah, and I think you'd feel superstitious.

[1490] I don't think on a team like that, if one person is doing something totally off, it doesn't feel good.

[1491] You just wouldn't do it.

[1492] There's so much superstition on teams.

[1493] Uh -huh.

[1494] Like, we had to stand next to a specific person when we would, like, do our huddle.

[1495] You decide, one time it worked and then it was like, okay, now I have to stand by this person.

[1496] I have to squeeze their hand twice.

[1497] I have to get really superstitious.

[1498] Yeah, athletes get real.

[1499] But, you know, the worse are these, like, pitchers and the batters.

[1500] Oh, yeah.

[1501] They're doing all these.

[1502] Oh, my God.

[1503] It's tiresome.

[1504] I love it.

[1505] It's so human.

[1506] Yeah, it is.

[1507] Okay.

[1508] And what is her position forward?

[1509] Oh, okay.

[1510] Great.

[1511] Okay, you said the elephant, you gave an analogy about an elephant.

[1512] You said 10 ,000 pounds.

[1513] So the African bush elephant mass average, 13 ,000 pounds.

[1514] Asian elephant, 8 ,800 pounds.

[1515] I just did an average of the two species.

[1516] And then African forest elephant, 6 ,000 pounds.

[1517] Ooh, tiny.

[1518] There was, you know, there was pygmy elephants and pypotomy, hippopotamus, hippopotamus, hippopotamai on Madagascar.

[1519] They have in the bone record because all animals on an island succumb to Foster's Island principle.

[1520] So the mammals all get smaller and the birds get bigger.

[1521] Can you imagine Okuda pygmy hippopotamus, the size of a pigmy hippodomis, the size of a pig.

[1522] pig is?

[1523] Oh, my God.

[1524] And a pygmy elephant.

[1525] How much would you love to have a team of pygmy elephants in the backyard?

[1526] I would love that.

[1527] Oh, they're so sweet.

[1528] But it wouldn't be good.

[1529] We wouldn't do it because it's not nice for them.

[1530] Well, if they're invented to be pets.

[1531] Are they invented to be pets?

[1532] They don't exist right now, pygmy elephants.

[1533] You said there were in Madagascar.

[1534] In Madagascar.

[1535] They have them in the archaeological record, but they're long extinct.

[1536] And, you know, there's pygmy, there were pygmy woolly mammoths on the Channel Islands.

[1537] Picture a fucking St. Bernard.

[1538] size woolly mammoth is your pet that's cute i would love a little tiny elephant me too but i would feel elephants have a sadness to them yeah because you've seen them mourn the dead is that why you think that and they have such a good memory yeah which makes you sad well maybe that is why because i like know that they are retaining all the sad information yeah they never forget they never forget They move so slowly and, you know, they're kind of droopy and people are mean to them and ride them and use them.

[1539] Oh, wow.

[1540] They're a sacred animal to my people.

[1541] Yeah.

[1542] So, okay, so she talks about the story of Eve and how that is sort of ingrained in Christian culture.

[1543] And that has repercussions, obviously.

[1544] I wanted to jump in there, but I didn't.

[1545] Okay, what were you going to say?

[1546] I was going to say the thing is such a thinly veiled metaphor for man's, insecurity that he can't please a woman.

[1547] The whole thing is about that Eve might fuck another dude.

[1548] That's really what it is.

[1549] Don't Eve, don't have that forbidden fruit, that forbidden fruit, don't wander, don't be curious, don't.

[1550] It's all men's deep, deep, deep fear that they won't satisfy their female partner.

[1551] Yeah, but it's still the man controlling it all.

[1552] Well, the man wrote the story.

[1553] Yeah.

[1554] I was sitting the other day, I think I told you, I was in an AA meeting.

[1555] And again, I apologize ahead of time.

[1556] having to offend any Christians.

[1557] But I was, I was sitting there and I was, you know, I was like, it's amazing to me that women have embraced Christianity.

[1558] There's a male God, and then the male God sends his son down to planet earth, not his daughter.

[1559] There's not even a daughter in the mix.

[1560] It's just, it's a male god, and then he is a male son, and the male son comes down, and they all both have all the answers.

[1561] The big person is a woman who had to have the baby is a virgin, because if she wasn't a virgin, she'd be, what, a slut?

[1562] I don't know.

[1563] I don't I don't know how it even found purchase in the mind of women.

[1564] But, but feminism is new.

[1565] I'm just saying, I have a hard enough time buying into the story, and I'm represented.

[1566] But you're able to have some perspective because you're not the one, like, we've just been entrained.

[1567] Yeah, everyone's been conditioned to just be like, okay, okay, yes, yes.

[1568] It's only now that people like, I guess like Lenin.

[1569] I mean, that's her whole thing is like, where are the women?

[1570] What are we doing?

[1571] Why don't we examine this?

[1572] The apostles, they're all dudes.

[1573] Everyone's a dude.

[1574] Women have no role in this religion other than the Mary.

[1575] I'm just saying if I was a woman, I couldn't even latch on and it's all about me. So I don't know how women found their way into that story.

[1576] We didn't find our way in.

[1577] It just, that was the story.

[1578] Well, the story was presented to being my grandma, Mules, and I had a Bible and I looked at the pictures and I had to go to Sunday school and I had to do the prayers.

[1579] And the whole time I was just like, I'm not.

[1580] this isn't resonating with me. But women have not been able to say, this is weird.

[1581] It's a rare woman to be able to step outside this patriarchy and be like, this is fucked up.

[1582] There are problems here.

[1583] It's easier to just fall in line.

[1584] Yeah.

[1585] And, you know, now things are starting to change.

[1586] I think it's fantastic that things are starting to change.

[1587] But it's hard and it's slow.

[1588] Well, the text itself, though, is what it is.

[1589] they're never going to update the Bible and add female characters to it.

[1590] But I'm just saying if I'm passing on a religion to my two daughters, and I'm like, here's this religion.

[1591] It's all about men.

[1592] They're the only ones that were smart.

[1593] They're the only ones that knew that were speaking to God.

[1594] They're the only, you know, and God's a guy too.

[1595] So like, I expect my daughters to be like, yeah, why don't you show me a religion that involves me and maybe I'd be interested in it.

[1596] Yeah, but you also have to like look at the history of this country.

[1597] It also doesn't involve women.

[1598] And you're not going to say, well, I guess I reject that history.

[1599] Like, I mean, that is what's happening.

[1600] Some people are like, whoa, this is all messed up.

[1601] There has not been a woman represented in so long, you know, at the foundation of all of this stuff.

[1602] Right.

[1603] But, yes.

[1604] And so to me, that makes sense.

[1605] What makes sense is the last 75 years of our culture where women increasingly are going, hold on, hold on, why aren't we in offices of government?

[1606] That's logical to me. Someone born in 1990, who's presented this story, and women have no role in it, I don't know how it's attractive to them.

[1607] But there's so many details of religion.

[1608] So they're probably not focusing so much on the lack of women.

[1609] They're focusing on all the other components that seem positive.

[1610] And I think there are positive things in religion.

[1611] Oh, sure.

[1612] Of course.

[1613] It would not be, yeah, going on for 2 ,000 years if it didn't have some major benefits to people's lives.

[1614] Yeah.

[1615] And it's just modeling.

[1616] It's just the kid goes to church because the parents go to church.

[1617] And, you know, a lot of people just take things at face value and they take it based on whatever their parents are doing.

[1618] And many people are fed to believe that that's the key to being a good person.

[1619] You're being told that you have to follow this or you'll get all off track.

[1620] And well, you'll end up in hell.

[1621] And you'll go to hell, yeah.

[1622] And however shitty life is on planet Earth for a woman or in heaven, it's got to be absolutely the worst in hell.

[1623] Yeah.

[1624] I think presumably it only gets worse.

[1625] Yeah.

[1626] But it just reminded me when she was talking about it.

[1627] There's a Sarah Borella song called Armor.

[1628] That's so good.

[1629] It's a female anthem.

[1630] Uh -huh.

[1631] And then there's part of the song is, Let it Begin, Let Adam in, Step 1, Original Sin.

[1632] Underneath the leaves, Adam found Eve.

[1633] Both of them found something sweet under the apple tree.

[1634] Then it was over, roads divide, step two, learning how to lie.

[1635] Let me ask a question to present day.

[1636] How the hell did Eve end up with all the damn blame?

[1637] I think he, well, I think I can, I can still see the photo in my little kid's Bible.

[1638] It seemed like she was about to bite and he looked nervous.

[1639] Anywho, yeah.

[1640] So she gets a lot of shit.

[1641] Yeah.

[1642] Yeah.

[1643] So Kristen said.

[1644] that the Buddhists say, if a bus is about to hit somebody, you'd move, you'd shove that person out of the way, not for their sake, but because it'd be like the bus was hitting you, too, because everyone's won.

[1645] And I could not find that in my research.

[1646] It didn't ring a bell when I was here.

[1647] Well, that's a play on words.

[1648] Oh, yeah.

[1649] I didn't ring a bell.

[1650] I didn't remember that.

[1651] Yeah.

[1652] But I don't know, maybe that's something they learned at The Good Place because they did a lot of philosophy stuff.

[1653] So I'm not saying it's not true.

[1654] I just did not find it.

[1655] But then I did find there was an article in The Atlantic and a few others about what would Buddhists say to the trolley dilemma.

[1656] Yeah.

[1657] The trolley Dalai Lama?

[1658] The trolley Lama.

[1659] According to, there was this Harvard professor maybe.

[1660] Yeah, he had a thesis student who posed question to Buddhist monks in northern India, like a lot of them.

[1661] How did they respond?

[1662] The majority of monks said they would push the person off the bridge.

[1663] In this case, it was a bridge.

[1664] But the same scenario.

[1665] They would kill one to save many.

[1666] They look at it as a matter of compassion.

[1667] Of course, killing someone is a terrible thing to do.

[1668] But if your intention is pure and you're really doing it for the greater good and you're not doing it for yourself or your family, that could be justified.

[1669] I'm just now thinking back that the Greek mythology had female gods.

[1670] Yeah, many.

[1671] So we regressed in some ways.

[1672] Oh, yeah.

[1673] I mean, in a lot of ways.

[1674] I wonder if it talks, you know, I wonder if that's a comment on even the way you watch the ebbs and flows of world politics.

[1675] Like there's, for the last five years has been this huge populist movement globally.

[1676] Mm -hmm.

[1677] Yeah.

[1678] And that society just ebbs and flows like that.

[1679] that like it constricts and it expands and it's conservative then it's progressive and i just wonder if christianity's exact time was in a retrograde of some big progressive expansion and that was the response i don't know i'm just curious on the on the on the long -term timeline what why why that religion then excluded all females when there were ones before it that had included them It's been an awful long time for that to still be the reigning philosophy, which it is.

[1680] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1681] Isn't it weird to think, like, but there's going to be so much time after us, well, I hope.

[1682] And who knows what that will look.

[1683] Like, our time is going to look like the Roman, like the Parthenon time at some point.

[1684] Yeah, what you hope is that we look like either the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, or the birth of the Greek, democracy, philosophy, all that stuff.

[1685] You hope that we're in a period that'll be looked back on favorably.

[1686] Yeah.

[1687] I don't know.

[1688] Verdict's out.

[1689] But we won't be alive to know.

[1690] No. That's all.

[1691] That's all?

[1692] All right.

[1693] Yeah.

[1694] Well, I love you.

[1695] I love you.

[1696] See you in hell.

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