Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard XX
[0] I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander who ended up accidentally marooned in America, and I want to grasp what makes this country tick.
[1] Now, I've always had a fascination with subcultures, be it heavy metal music fans, live action role players, people who like to dress up as furries, or adults that like to tickle each other.
[2] But there's one subculture that's always felt like such a mystery to me, and it could only have been created in the United States of America.
[3] Whoop -whoop is the cry of the juggalo's, a subculture of fans that adore a rap group from Detroit called Insane Clown Posse, ICP for short.
[4] I remember first hearing about the group when I was at school in New Zealand, best song Miracles even a hit down under.
[5] GQ magazine has called ICP the worst rappers of all time.
[6] Despite lines like around, it's all astounding, water, fire, air and dirt, fucking magnets, how do they work?
[7] Despite lines like fucking magnets, how do they work, or maybe because of lines like that, the rappers have been around for over three decades.
[8] According to the band, their music empire brings in around $10 million a year.
[9] That's largely thanks to their incredibly loyal fan base of so -called juggaloes, who often wear black and white face paint like their heroes.
[10] But back in 20, juggalo's got so big and so loyal, the FBI decided to classify them as a gang.
[11] In return, the insane clown posse sued the FBI.
[12] I wanted to know how in America one minute you can be a fan and the next minute you're in a gang.
[13] So, grab your clown makeup and get ready to ask, how do magnets work?
[14] Because this is the juggalo's episode.
[15] This is bird touchdown in America I'm a flyless bird touchdown in America This is probably the most niche episode of this show Could be a mistake, could be our greatest endeavor They'll tell us They'll tell us people, listeners will tell us I'm so biased I have certainly an inflated sense of who they are Because their home stage was St. Andrews Hall, which I live like eight blocks from and where we saw all punk rock shows.
[16] Have you ever seen insane clown posse perform?
[17] Because I embarrassingly have not.
[18] I was having an ethical dilemma while I was listening to the intro going like, am I going to pretend I just saw them?
[19] Because clearly I could have.
[20] They played nonstop at St. Andrews.
[21] That is a good ethical glimmer.
[22] Do I lie or do I tell the truth?
[23] I've never seen them.
[24] But they were unavoidable in Detroit in the 90s when I was going.
[25] going to shows.
[26] Yeah, and they are prolific.
[27] They've released, I think, over 15 albums.
[28] Their fan base is, I mean, if I try and figure out in the documentary, they are rabid and they're so passionate and they get involved.
[29] And the fact that the FBI took notice of them and went, hey, a certain proportion of juggaloes are actually committing quite a few crimes.
[30] Therefore, if you proclaim to be a fan, a juggalo, you are a gang member.
[31] That was particularly interesting to me. The period I'm familiar with, they had a following in Detroit.
[32] They had enough fans.
[33] that they could regularly book St. Andrews Hall, which is, you know, moderate -sized space.
[34] I don't think it was to later where I said there was that maybe I stumbled upon a documentary about them.
[35] And I realized, oh, my God, this has grown to hundreds of thousands of fans.
[36] And also the fans, to me, evolved from what I associated with ICP in Detroit.
[37] Completely.
[38] And I think it goes from we like this rap that speaks to issues that are close to us, whether it's violence or family violence or that, how to make.
[39] I mean, by the way, that line, in New Zealand, that line was such a big joke.
[40] Magnets, how do they work?
[41] Such a good question.
[42] I mean, who really knows?
[43] Nobody knows.
[44] And to just drop that into a song is kind of amazing.
[45] They do really interesting things.
[46] Their favorite drink is this drink, which I've never had called Fago.
[47] Fago?
[48] Everyone in Michigan drinks Fago, yeah.
[49] Can you just, it's like an orange -flavored drink?
[50] There's a lot of different options on the table.
[51] all of them equally delicious.
[52] I think the most popular would be red pop.
[53] And Rock and Rye.
[54] Rock and Rye's incredible.
[55] It's almost like a cream soda -y taste, but with the red pop mixed in and a cola flavor, it's a lot going on.
[56] There was also Frosh, which was like, if you can imagine it was green, it would be like their take on maybe Mountain Dew or something.
[57] They're like counter -programming to the boring run -of -the -mill pedestrian sodas.
[58] Now, I don't know if they predate Coca -Cola or not, But yes, Fago, Werner's, Stros beer, Saunders, Kony Dogs.
[59] These are the staples of the Detroit cuisine.
[60] This is a whole different, I think, topic of this podcast, actually, is drinks like that.
[61] Yes.
[62] But at some point, Insane Clown Passet decided that that was their favorite drink, and so they would bring it to concerts, and a big part of their show is just showering the audience in Fago.
[63] Oh, I wonder what flavor they use.
[64] And people love it.
[65] I think the orange one, I might be wrong.
[66] Okay.
[67] But, yeah, so that's like a big thing.
[68] And there was big controversy because when they toured in Australia, which is near New Zealand, they got all their Fago confiscated because they thought it was they were going to sell it for commercial purposes.
[69] Oh, sure.
[70] They were importing it with them.
[71] But they were, no, we bought a head a spray for free on our fans.
[72] Yeah.
[73] Custom didn't believe them.
[74] And all their drinks got.
[75] Did people demand refunds?
[76] Like, is that?
[77] They got a replacement drink.
[78] I think they got Fanta.
[79] Okay.
[80] If you've had Fanta, you're in the world of Fago.
[81] Insane Clown Posse brushes up against other favorite American.
[82] institutions like wrestling, they've got their own wrestling network, and that's a whole big thing.
[83] So they appeals like a very specific part of America.
[84] I'm not trying to be disrespectful to them as musicians, but it did appear to me in the mid -90s when I was going to show, is like, okay, these guys are pursuing a niche.
[85] They're not great musicians.
[86] That's not what they're going to get known for.
[87] And you had other bands of this era that were getting pretty popular, like Guar.
[88] war was performance first guys in huge Titan outfits spraying the audience with blood you go for a show yes they had huge oversized bats with nails in it and maces and it was like a gladiator band does any of this appeal to your moniker at all or are you just like what is going on with these sounds like a true nightmare well when you sent a list of stuff we were going to be taught like you were like oh for the next five flightless birds it's going to be this this this I thought you were talking about Jigalos And I was really excited about that There's many email exchanges where Monica's saying jigalos And of course I'm just thinking, oh, that's auto -correct Like she's definitely typed juggalo and I got I thought it was weird how excited you did get About that very specific topic Because I didn't think you were a juggalo And I was like, why would you be into juggalo?
[89] What if I was?
[90] What if I was a secret?
[91] If you secretly face painted your face like a clown And went and sprayed Fago over people I would love that so much.
[92] From what I understand about the fan base, you're like antithetical to it in every way.
[93] I am.
[94] I remember when it was on MTV, I was like horrified.
[95] Really actually scared.
[96] Well, it's clowns are scary.
[97] They're trying to be dangerous.
[98] Yeah, their lyrics are pretty scary.
[99] The whole thing's pretty scary.
[100] This is a well -worn tradition in heavy metal and in punk rock.
[101] Not all these guys can play that well, so let's give them something else.
[102] Yeah, I'm more pop.
[103] Yeah, musicianship.
[104] You like your musicians to have some command of the instrument.
[105] I went and hit the streets, as always, to get some other thoughts on jugglers.
[106] This is what the rest of America thought.
[107] Are you aware of what juggaloes are?
[108] Yeah, like circus animal jugglers or juggaloos?
[109] Juggalo's?
[110] No. Do you have any idea?
[111] No. Juggalo?
[112] No, I haven't.
[113] No, I haven't.
[114] No. heard of the word jiggle -o.
[115] How do you spell that?
[116] It's J -U -G -G -O -L -A -L -O.
[117] I've heard of Jigolo.
[118] Hey, do you know the word juggalo?
[119] Yes.
[120] What is a juggalo?
[121] Oh, it's like an older man who, like, disrespects women.
[122] Does it ring any bells for you?
[123] Juggalo.
[124] Are you talking about insane clown posse?
[125] Yeah, I know that is.
[126] Can you explain your understanding of it?
[127] Because I'm trying to understand juggalo culture myself, because we don't really have any jugglers in New Zealand where I'm from.
[128] People who follow insane clown posse.
[129] They wear clown makeup, usually kind of scarier clown makeup almost.
[130] And I think they're just really intense fans of the band.
[131] You're not a juggler?
[132] No, I am not.
[133] You're not a juggler.
[134] No, no, I don't follow any of that stuff.
[135] I also realize listening back that I spout jugglers wrong when I spout it out to those people, which makes me feel particularly stupid.
[136] Real -time fact -cha.
[137] But yeah, Monica, you're not a lot of.
[138] alone.
[139] Again, makes me think this is probably the nichest flightless bird will ever, ever, ever do.
[140] That's a euphemism for worst.
[141] Yeah.
[142] Look, I'm going to start that.
[143] No, no, hold on, hold on.
[144] This is not genie.
[145] We're not in genie territory yet.
[146] No, that her name?
[147] Oh, no. Jennifer.
[148] Geneifer.
[149] Geneifer.
[150] Oh, I got no. Geniefer.
[151] Geneifer.
[152] Yeah, look, I'm going to start.
[153] No, hold on.
[154] This is an Easterer.
[155] Over, like, throughout the course of 100 episodes of flightless bird, it will be revealed, David's only misfileged.
[156] And I just want to tease it out for a long time.
[157] But just know that one of the clues is genie fair.
[158] Yeah, and it makes me recoil.
[159] I kind of want to just tell people what happened.
[160] No, we got to tease it out.
[161] We got to tease it out.
[162] Maybe ultimately we'll play that episode.
[163] I mean, I'm out there.
[164] You know, I'm out there every week.
[165] I'm trying to find topics.
[166] You are a brave and loyal soldier.
[167] You're working your ass off.
[168] When you were not around, we were commiserating about you yesterday.
[169] Oh, we were all like going, I don't know how he's as prolific as he is.
[170] take a break the writing the webworm doing all these episodes we were astounded by the output and concerned so just know that we we hold you in the highest regard you so much i mean look i'm a single man i live alone in los angeles what else am i going to do except write episodes of flightless bird you know when i saw the documentary what i saw was to me the general appeal would have been from the kids in my school that we would have called the trench coat mafia is the documentary you're talking about the United States of Insanity, because I talked to the director in this episode, and he's great, because he spent seven years with juggalo's, so he knows this community inside out.
[171] Part of what makes it fascinating is generally fans are white, they're poor, they're at the sort of lower end of society in general, but they kind of embrace it.
[172] That's the thing.
[173] It's not like, oh, poor us.
[174] So they would probably hear that and just be like, great, that's us.
[175] I relate to that deeply.
[176] I remember being the kid on the wrong side of the tracks and feeling like, yeah, go ahead and judge us.
[177] And fuck you, and watch how gross this is.
[178] There's something empowering about whatever thing you think I am, I'm going to scream it from the rooftops.
[179] And it's the opposite to where so much of American, and just the Western society is going in general, of this is my best self, like social media.
[180] Like this is me looking the best, this is my best, everything.
[181] Juggalo's are like, we are pretty much the opposite of that.
[182] We know that we don't have a lot of money and we don't have a lot of friends.
[183] We don't live in the most affluent parts of America.
[184] But that's fine.
[185] We fucking love it.
[186] We know how to rage and have a good.
[187] Yeah, which is kind of magical.
[188] Yes.
[189] They're not in denial about who they are.
[190] Right, I like it.
[191] Yeah, they're dressing up as clowns.
[192] Like, it's leaning in to the whole thing.
[193] But yeah, this is my little documentary for this week, because I really didn't know very much about jugglers.
[194] Not jugglers.
[195] Pocus, pocus, chokers, why?
[196] Come there's been on a corny bye.
[197] Insane clown posse is made up of Violent J and Shaggy Too Dope, two Detroit men who both have the first name Joseph.
[198] But to be honest, I'm more curious about their fan base than their music.
[199] Their fans call themselves Juggalo's.
[200] They were a fan base I was introduced to thanks to the first ever documentary made about Juggalo culture.
[201] It was a seven -minute film uploaded to YouTube in 2009 and documented the yearly gathering of the ICP fans, an event known as the Gathering of the Juggalo's.
[202] You call one of us, Alcash, you better call out, straight up.
[203] You know, you step to one of us, you better step to the whole month.
[204] It was a really pure documentary.
[205] It's just clips of jugglers talking about the band and the culture they love.
[206] There's barely any editorializing.
[207] The fans just speak for themselves.
[208] I have six and a half months pregnant.
[209] Will your baby be a juggalo?
[210] Oh, yeah.
[211] I decided to track down the man who made that clip, Derek Erdman.
[212] My mother was the one that introduced me into, I guess, juggalism, one would say, because I have a cousin who is a juggalo, and then she told me a little bit about it, and then we saw the ridiculous commercial that came out for this gathering.
[213] The massive family reunion that brings together the most misunderstood people of all time.
[214] It's the 10th annual, Gathering of the Juggalo.
[215] The gathering looks like a mixture of jackass, a music festival, and a comedy festival all rolled into one, plus some wrestling thrown in as well.
[216] 550 pounds of viscera.
[217] It seemed so ridiculous.
[218] And since it was in Illinois that year and I was in Chicago, it seemed to make a lot of sense.
[219] to easily just go down there.
[220] And we actually pretended we were working with NPR and got free press passes.
[221] A great journalistic trick.
[222] If you're with some tiny media outlet, just pretend you're with CNN or something.
[223] They'll probably let you in.
[224] I noted this down for the next time I tried it and infiltrate something.
[225] Southern Illinois, it's pretty rural.
[226] We were pretty surprised to see that there were signs from local residents.
[227] Juggalo parking here or Welcome Juggalo's.
[228] From what I could tell, they had been kicked out of another area in Ohio, and this was their first gathering in Illinois.
[229] Just walking up, meeting people in the parking lot and seeing that style.
[230] They all look very similar with the braided cornrows and the face paint and fishnets are walking around to just a bra.
[231] Fucking million people more.
[232] There's like a fucking thousand people.
[233] What did you make of it when you walked in there?
[234] I guess it was intimidating by the amount of people who were there and the amount of people who all sort of looked the same, but the whole time, We were overwhelmed with how friendly everybody was.
[235] I'd been to Grateful Dead shows in the past, and it was kind of similar in a way.
[236] Everybody was positive, they were happy you were there.
[237] You would think with these types of people, you know, it would be agro or there'd be violence, but there was nothing like that.
[238] And because that was the law of the land, that really fed into it being a really positive experience, which was so surprising, and that made us really happy.
[239] It sounds like a good time, like Burning Man, but with less tech bros and hipsters.
[240] And that's where it gets so confusing, because I'm watching an old episode of Nightline from 2010.
[241] It seems worlds apart from what Derek's just described to me. We've got multiple individuals committing gang -related crimes, gang -motivated crimes, and they're using the name Joan Lowe.
[242] The clip is only 12 years old, but it feels like I'm watching something from the satanic panic days of the 80s.
[243] But in this case, Satan is the insane clown posse.
[244] The nightline crew embeds with a police officer who's traveling America warning other officers about the dangers posed by juggalo's.
[245] After a series of murders and other violent acts linked to their followers, Juggalo's are now classified as a gang.
[246] The weapons, they prefer obviously hatchets because they talk about that all the time.
[247] Battle axes, we got machetes, we got anything that can make the most violent and gruesome wound.
[248] There was a bit of a juggalo crime spree, carried out by people with a distinctive look.
[249] cornrows and painted faces.
[250] Some had the same tattoo, a silhouette of a man with a hatchet.
[251] And juggalo's could get pretty inappropriate, even at the gathering.
[252] Tila Tequila performed in front of Jugglers in 2010 and was literally chased off stage by men drunk and high, had been hurling insults and bottles in her direction.
[253] I didn't see anything that was dark.
[254] The year after that Tila tequila incident, it really bummed me out.
[255] Kind of turned me against the jugglers a little bit.
[256] Okay, I'm just checking in with you guys.
[257] How are we feeling about jugglers so far?
[258] Documentary maker that I watched that documentary on YouTube when I was in New Zealand, he says, had a great time, peaceful, loving people.
[259] Then you hear Nightline Reporting, the 90s, early 2000s.
[260] They love getting hatchets and doing crime.
[261] Yeah.
[262] To me, it seems like an unavoidable arc to all organizations.
[263] There's a honeymoon phase.
[264] You've come together.
[265] You've discovered you're not alone.
[266] That's beautiful.
[267] and then it's okay now we're a group now everyone else is on the outside of that group you get into this in -group out -group thing and then i feel like this is where humans are we do our thing intrinsically dangerous because then it's like well okay first i'm relieved i have a companion now it's like oh now that i got this buddy let's talk about these fucking assholes that put us in this group and now is there anything we can do to get even with these people it just seems inevitable yeah it could we could easily be in an episode of armchied and dangerous because It's like the conspiracists, they find each other, and suddenly you're empowered.
[268] What are we going to do about it?
[269] Yes, there was probably some sweet spot of the mole children before the guy drives the train off the tracks.
[270] 100%.
[271] Yeah, 100%.
[272] It starts somewhere sensible and ends up somewhere ridiculous.
[273] And I guess also when you're dealing with a group of people who probably have grown up in broken homes and conditions that aren't as, you know, they're not going to push you in a certain direction, then probably some people are going to turn to crime.
[274] We're brought together by this fact that society at large thinks we're disgusting.
[275] We're deplorables and we're gross.
[276] So we know that scares them.
[277] This group we don't like that we've been rejected from.
[278] So let's scare them.
[279] Yeah, 100%.
[280] This also reminds me, Monica, speaking of Waffle House's many episodes back, there was a headline I found after a show in Indianapolis, insane clown possees, two of us stopped at a waffle house when a customer began to harass two of the members, a fight broke out, and all of the band members got involved.
[281] And until I spoke to you, I didn't know Waffle House.
[282] Hosted fights.
[283] Hosted fights.
[284] Yeah, they do.
[285] If I plotted the plot line, it would be, we've come together.
[286] Now I'm at Waffle House with more than by myself.
[287] Normally I'm at Waffle House my whole life as a kid and everyone's pointing at me and laughing in my combat boots and my clown makeup.
[288] Now I'm with five guys and we actually win.
[289] And now that spreads through the community like, oh my God, Jay and Pete were at the thing and they beat these jocks up, blah, blah, blah.
[290] now everyone wants a little taste of that.
[291] So what would have probably started innocently as a self -defense situation, now people probably actively want that revenge.
[292] Yeah, the image is shifted, and it means something now to people that were loners.
[293] There's a psychological component to it where if they have grown up in chaos, they're used to that.
[294] So they feel safe in that space.
[295] They're ready to get wild.
[296] Stay tuned for more flightless bird.
[297] We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
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[336] All right, back into it.
[337] Lots of people were turning against the juggaloes in the late 2000s, and in 2011, the FBI classified juggaloes as a gang, a loosely organized hybrid gang.
[338] Overnight, fans were now officially gang members.
[339] Now, the National Gang Intelligence Center says there are at least a million juggaloes across the United States.
[340] They say around 10 to 15 % of those are involved in specific criminal activity.
[341] things like extortion, murder, domestic terrorism, drive -by shootings, drug trafficking, and arson.
[342] And jugglers formed not just one gang, but subsets of gangs with names like the downtown clowns, the tunnel rat ninjas, and the North End villains.
[343] Unfortunately, for the non -criminal 90 % of jugglers, the FBI still lumped them in as a gang too.
[344] I wanted to talk to a man who followed all of this, another documentary maker, Tom Putnam.
[345] Last year he released the United States of Insanity, a film documenting his seven years with juggalo's.
[346] Their reputation is really gnarly.
[347] There are some crimes that are the mass shootings.
[348] Guy goes into a gay bar with a hatchet and murders people, shoots a police officer.
[349] Guy barricades himself into a radio station and takes hostages, stabbing.
[350] I mean, the worst crimes you can possibly imagine.
[351] And even more alarming, they're committing murders using.
[352] scenarios and weapons that the band sings about in their songs.
[353] They're very clearly inspired by the music.
[354] So I should note here that insane clown posse's style of rap is loosely termed horror core.
[355] It has a lot of horror imagery and a cast of characters and themes that pop up throughout all their music.
[356] They're also pretty open about their rough childhoods, abuse and violence.
[357] And that clearly connects and speaks to fans who have had similar experiences.
[358] After talking with various gang experts, we came to realize that it used to You take a million of anybody, you're going to find not just some bad people, some mentally ill people, some very, very dangerous criminals in that group.
[359] You take a million people who are from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum, for whom music that sings about abuse is important, it's probably going to be a higher number of criminals.
[360] So in 2014, the insane clown posse did something quite insane.
[361] They sued the FBI.
[362] The Anti -Defamation League backed them.
[363] The FBI and the Justice Department told CNN they were aware of the lawsuit, but they declined to comment on the pending litigation.
[364] Technically, that case is still ongoing.
[365] The ACLU filed an appeal after the last ruling against them.
[366] But the reality is that everyone knows it's not going to make it to the next higher circuit court.
[367] It's probably dumb.
[368] It's a blow for the juggaloes.
[369] Imagine how difficult it's been for them and the toll it's taken.
[370] toll it's taken on their fans, people have had their lives absolutely ruined, and then imagine you're one person who gets put on a list.
[371] There's really almost nothing that you can do.
[372] I think the average person, no matter what their politics, can recognize that that's just inherently wrong.
[373] I mean, I've never been on any kind of FBI watch lists that I'm aware of.
[374] How do it affect them in like a day -to -day way as they try and live their lives as a band, and just as a couple of individuals in America?
[375] So for the band, it's affected them in terms of money.
[376] If you have three or more of the juggaloes in the same place, that's a gang meeting.
[377] Well, that makes it hard to get a venue for a concert.
[378] It makes it harder to sell merchandise, and it makes it harder to run your business.
[379] You can have just walked into like a hot topic.
[380] They sell ICP shirts in malt.
[381] And buy a shirt, you're now considered a gang member.
[382] The police can and do pull over.
[383] they'll photograph you, they'll put you in the gang database, which means you can't get social services, you can't get college scholarships, can't join the military.
[384] If you're arrested for a crime, you get a gang enhancement.
[385] And these things have happened to hundreds of people.
[386] Your life can be ruined.
[387] We interviewed a guy who had his son put in a group home for years because he had ICP posters on this wall.
[388] That was considered gang paraphernalia.
[389] This juggle a couple, they were, to a ridiculous degree, the most clean -cut people you've ever seen.
[390] They're both physical therapists in rural Ohio.
[391] They love Harry Potter.
[392] They love the X -Men.
[393] And they both dress in all -white and high school sweethearts.
[394] They're the most delightful people.
[395] And while we're filming, her boss at the facility she worked at asked her, hey, what's this documentary about?
[396] Oh, it's about this music we listen to.
[397] This isn't the music.
[398] She got fired on the spot, and there's nothing you can do about it.
[399] It's all pretty weird.
[400] I think of all the things I'm a fan of.
[401] What if my fellow Jurassic Park enthusiast started murdering people?
[402] Will Jurassic Park fandom be destined for gang status?
[403] I think of how passionate people are about Marvel films and DC Comics.
[404] Are they going to be gangs?
[405] I know I've been a bit dramatic, but you get the idea.
[406] It's terrifying.
[407] It can happen to anybody.
[408] The FBI has no published criteria for what makes a gang.
[409] There's an unofficial three -item checklist of which the band only checks two of those items, which means the Boy Scouts, a church group, any other group of people that essentially has what's called a name symbol identifier, they can be considered a gang.
[410] And there's nothing you can do about it.
[411] No one's ever been taken off the gang list.
[412] And in looking at the history of the FBI and the various groups they've targeted from immigration activists to environmental activists to reporters who have been critical of the agency and of the government, I think it's very clear that it is easy for the government.
[413] government to have too much power.
[414] And as with any large organization, it's not the power that's the problem.
[415] It's when they make a mistake.
[416] There's almost nothing the average person can do to stop it.
[417] I mean, you look at this ban.
[418] They make $10 million a year.
[419] They have a million fans.
[420] They're backed by the ACLU.
[421] They have the ability to get a lot of press.
[422] They've been in this lawsuit for seven years.
[423] There's a victory in that they got taken off of the FBI's website, but there's never been a formal apology.
[424] They've never actually been removed from the gang list.
[425] The case is one circuit below the Supreme Court.
[426] Do you think juggaloes could have happened in any country besides the United States?
[427] At this point, there are juggaloes in a number of other countries, but I think America has a very unique brand of social collapse that we're dealing with.
[428] And for a country where the school system isn't supporting them economically, we're all struggling and feeling isolated, and the media here, followed by the law enforcement, really truly vilifies anybody who is different.
[429] And where's their heart on their sleeve?
[430] This is a band that will sing openly about the most embarrassing stuff, and they get made fun of in the national media for that.
[431] And they're just being honest about their feelings.
[432] And I haven't really run across a lot of many other countries that are as mean as the United States, and I think that that's created a situation where someone is willing to gravitate toward something like a band that has that much value.
[433] I put the same question to Derek, the man who was the first to document the Juggalo movement way back in 2009.
[434] What's your insight into what makes this band and this community tick?
[435] Honestly, I think it's inevitable byproduct of the collapse of American society in a way.
[436] It is a lot of people celebrate, their lot in life.
[437] And the songs I've heard by the Insane Clown Posse are sort of communal, but also celebrating the more white trash sides of life and saying, hey, that's okay.
[438] And obviously a lot of people identify with that.
[439] If you can get thousands of people to come to a field and camp out in the mud for three days, there's obviously an audience for this.
[440] And I would also say this is definitely a Midwest thing.
[441] When you visit the Midwest, you see this, especially in those smaller towns that maybe at one time thriving and now they have a lot of meth or opioid use.
[442] If you can celebrate your way of life and see it not as a great detriment or something ultimately sad, I guess you should do that.
[443] Yeah, and there's some of a purity to it as well.
[444] Like, no one's trying too hard.
[445] They're just being themselves in a way and not pretending to be something cooler.
[446] They're just all communing with each other.
[447] Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that.
[448] But it would also be absolutely fucking insane for anybody to.
[449] to try to pose to be a juggalo.
[450] You're right, in a way that it is kind of a boiled -down purity.
[451] And it is almost like the base of culture, like base as in the bottom of culture.
[452] And so it's a celebration of the bottom of that culture, I guess, unless that sounds fully psycho to say.
[453] I think this whole story is psycho, a weird race to the bottom, with an understanding that maybe the bottom's okay.
[454] It's sort of the opposite.
[455] to the American dream.
[456] And I guess it explains the success of insane clown posse with their one million loyal fans.
[457] They're honest.
[458] They know who they are and they know who their audiences.
[459] They're not trying to be better than that.
[460] And to think all of this sprang from the minds of two men who once posed a question that sort of became one of the first big memes.
[461] I feel like magnets kind of went viral because it was this weird mix of like earnestness and humor.
[462] Like how much does humor play into the same?
[463] scene, do you think?
[464] David, do you think that magnets thing was a joke?
[465] I am, okay, so am I, am I think?
[466] I don't think that was a joke.
[467] I think they really didn't know how magnets worked.
[468] And you know what?
[469] As I laughed at all this and thought, gosh, those idiots not knowing how magnets work, it occurred to me that I'm not really sure how magnets work.
[470] I mean, magnetic fields, north and south poles, push and pull, but really, how the fuck do magnets work?
[471] Hello, this is Caroline Ross.
[472] Oh, hey, Caroline, it's David Ferry.
[473] Caroline is an expert on magnets.
[474] So I'm a professor in MIT in the Department of Material Science and Engineering.
[475] Magnetism comes from the electrons in atoms.
[476] As you think of them whizzing around the nucleus, it's a little bit like a current going round and round in a circle.
[477] Look, to be honest, I think maybe it's easier to go with Shaggy 2 -Dopes' explanation of magnets.
[478] They're a miracle.
[479] I've seen miracles all around me. Stop and look around.
[480] It's all astounding.
[481] Water, fire, air and dirt.
[482] Fucking Magnus.
[483] How do they work?
[484] And I don't want to talk to a scientist.
[485] Y' motherfucker's lying and getting me pissed.
[486] I've missed this year's gathering of the juggalo's, but I might go next year.
[487] I've touched bass with Violent Jay and Shaggy 2 -Dopes manager.
[488] He seems really nice and says they're open to talking to this particular flightless bird.
[489] If I end up going to a gathering, because I would like to try and get along to one, any particular advice, I mean, I'm a pretty lanky white guy, so I've got the whiteness on my side, don't have cornrows, don't have face paint.
[490] Any advice?
[491] Be yourself, maybe get a hatchet man tattoo.
[492] Try the face paint on, see how you see the world through the face painted face.
[493] Whoop, whoop, whoop.
[494] So, stay tuned, I guess.
[495] There might be a million and one juggaloes soon enough.
[496] Yeah, I think I can go to the next gathering, which I'm excited about.
[497] Maybe I will do the face pain.
[498] I won't do any crime or any violence.
[499] Please don't.
[500] Like with any group, there's a bunch of those people that are truly awful and abhorrent, and there'll be a bunch of jugglers.
[501] I like to think that some jugglers will be listening to this and going, oh, God, those people, like they give her in a bad name, you know?
[502] On the surface, this episode, maybe doesn't seem like it's in keeping with flightless bird.
[503] But I got to say, the themes that burble up in this episode, episode are maybe the most poignant American themes that you've stumbled upon.
[504] There's an underpinning of our deep Christian worldview in that if you look at the groups that have been easy to villainize, they're generally going to play on the evil side of the paradigms.
[505] So Ozzy Osbourne, right?
[506] He bit the head off of a bat.
[507] Because it actually represented devil worship or evil, the country mobilized and they were obsessed with it in law enforcement correct now other birds are getting harmed in much bigger numbers and other activities that are not that don't fall into the good and evil dichotomy and because of the symbolism yes as being interpreted as satanic suddenly and mind you down the road they released a thousand doves at a wedding and like 18 of them were killed immediately by the gas heaters and the the romey owl you can't say that we object to the harming of birds because the harming of bird represented evil Now it's mass moral panic.
[508] I think the reason the FBI didn't think twice about identifying them is that they, through their face painting and how they look, they do harken to this sense of evil, that they're evil, they're anti -Christian in some way.
[509] Oh, totally.
[510] And they play up to that, like that whole genre of horacle.
[511] They've got a lot of what would be seen by that part of America's evil imagery.
[512] And so absolutely, that would be part of it.
[513] But they're actually violent Well hold on They're not actually violent Some members of them are violent Like if you were to take The people who went to Rolling Stone concerts Certainly as many murderers Involve You're talking about millions of people So you can't say they do anything They're promoting that go It's tricky because it's that thing of artistic expression It almost goes back to that thing Of people that play violent video games Will they carry out awful things because at no point our insane clown posse telling an audience to go and commit acts of violence they'll sing about that stuff but then I guess it goes back to other rappers who are probably slightly more skilled like Eminem who's got horrific lyrics I mean so many so much of I guess metal and rap and music in general is filled with certain bad ideas they're not actively encouraging it but it's certainly a big part of it so yeah how much does that play in we do revere literature in this weird way we all have this core belief that you shouldn't burn books and that literature should be allowed to be what it is.
[514] Catcher in the Rye.
[515] Catcher in the Rye, there's been multiple assassins holding a copy of the book when they were caught.
[516] No one would dare say get rid of Catcher in the Rye.
[517] Look, the last five shooters were holding the book.
[518] Clearly, that makes people shoot people.
[519] You go, no, it's literature and these guys are knuckleheads and they latched onto some aspect of this book, but nowhere are we getting rid of this book.
[520] The vast majority people aren't.
[521] But music we don't hold in that same reverence.
[522] No, not at all.
[523] And it reminds me of something else kind of amazing about this band is that briefly, I think in the late 90s, they were on Hollywood Records.
[524] And Hollywood Records, I don't think it's around anymore, but it was owned by Disney.
[525] And so at one point, literally insane clown posse, with all we know about them now, about their violent lyrics and crazy ideas, release an album via Disney.
[526] It went out there.
[527] Disney recalled it.
[528] It had sold, I think, something like 20 ,000 units, not a lot.
[529] But Disney yanked it because everyone had started turning on Disney and going, you cannot be representing these people.
[530] Do you know what they're singing about?
[531] Do you think Disney just saw a clown?
[532] And they're like, I actually think they did.
[533] I think they probably looked to them and like, these guys are funny and wacky and did that song about magnets.
[534] I just love that.
[535] The idea that these guys were signed to Disney at one point, like chefs kiss, hilarious.
[536] The other, you want to say something, Rob?
[537] Have we got a fan in the house?
[538] This is what I desperately hope is that Rob speaks up as an ICP fan.
[539] We look over and Rob's in full clown makeup.
[540] He put it on while we were paying attention and we all scream.
[541] And he kills us with a hatchet.
[542] I remember that there was a woman I think got advice that went undercover like 10 years ago there at one of the gatherings.
[543] And the police couldn't patrol at them.
[544] Like they weren't able to.
[545] And there was tons of drugs and all this insane.
[546] stuff happening.
[547] So the cop's almost too scared to go in or it would create too much drama.
[548] Big area in Ohio, which they're kicked out of.
[549] They just stay away from.
[550] Yeah, but it was just unlawful and all this insane stuff was happening there.
[551] See, that's why when I say I'm going to go to a gathering, I am genuinely curious whether it's going to be kind of fun and a bit drunk and silly or if it does actually turn proper feral.
[552] I'm very curious.
[553] But if I'm in the makeup, in the clown makeup, I'll be fine.
[554] I'll be one of them.
[555] You should go in a varsity jacket holding a football and see what happened.
[556] We know that the divide between the left and the right, to some extent, is driven by a sense of elitism, college graduates versus non -college graduates.
[557] And that seemingly inane song about magnets is incredibly deep.
[558] That song is broadcasting, I'm dumb and I'm not embarrassed about it, and I'm not going to let you make me feel shame or less than because of it.
[559] We have total willingness and.
[560] acceptance over ridiculing people for being dumb.
[561] Genetically, some people are smarter than others.
[562] I understand how a magnet works.
[563] I didn't work hard to do it.
[564] I just can.
[565] Yeah, you can grasp that.
[566] Particles are electrically charged or positively a charge, and two electric charges are going to repel each other.
[567] Yeah, I'm still struggling.
[568] Two positive charges are going to repel each other and positive and negative bond.
[569] If you're not, say, above a 90 IQ and you live in this country, I don't want to call it a disability because I don't think it's a disability.
[570] It's a part of the...
[571] Yeah, why should you be allowed to turn on those people that aren't as smart as you think they should be?
[572] You can see them owning it.
[573] In finding their own prime and say, I'm not going to be shamed by you.
[574] It's a deep song.
[575] And I think that is what a lot of their lyrics are like and connecting.
[576] They're completely honest with the fan basis likes them, which is like, we're damaged, we're broken, we're struggling.
[577] We always have, and we feel kind of terrible about ourselves.
[578] but we're all together in this and we shouldn't be judged by it because this is how we are, so screw you.
[579] And I also don't want to paint with a broad brush and say that juggaloes are not of the average intelligence.
[580] But also, if you come from a violent broken home, school is in a place you can really focus.
[581] Even if you're smart and you're in that classroom, you have the shitty clothes on and you're not listening to the explanation of magnets.
[582] So it's like a dual -fold nature -nurture thing that results in these kids being shame for being dumb and stupid and bad students.
[583] But how much of it is people shaming them and how much comes from a defense that's not getting put on them.
[584] I've never been around someone of lower intelligence and I'm like, you're stupid.
[585] I think so.
[586] I've been with you.
[587] When we're watching the Capitol riots, we're like, look at these fucking dumbasses.
[588] They don't even know what they're rioting about.
[589] It's not true.
[590] I don't say they're stupid.
[591] I say that's scary.
[592] That's crazy.
[593] Trump is, I never said they're stupid.
[594] I know I do it.
[595] I absolutely am judgmental as heck.
[596] My end conclusion after writing while I was listening is we're part of the problem, ironically.
[597] I'd go met her on it and say even the fact that I've put this episode together without speaking to any jugglers directly.
[598] I've spoken to two other white men who have made documentaries who are smart and our experts on them.
[599] and educated and I'm talking to them to get in it was sort of like two layers down it's like I haven't met them I'm talking to people that have yeah what am I to on my high chair not to go and meet and talk to some people well in some part of this show I think there's a good part of this show too which is I think we're really fair which is great I completely agree but but the baseline interest is how the fuck could these people believe these things I think this how are they so stupid that they think that hundreds of workers were stringing up explosives within the World Trade Center and no one saw it?
[600] How do you think that could physically happen on planet Earth?
[601] Yeah, people who believe that there are 100 Bigfoot wandering around in the forest.
[602] Yeah, this is stupid, you're stupid.
[603] And I always try and pull myself back from it, but I'm definitely guilty of having that thought.
[604] And I'm a guy that couldn't explain to you in a logical manner exactly how magnets work.
[605] Well, because you're stupid as fuck.
[606] Because I'm stupid as far.
[607] But we're all like, we all have these blind spots, you know?
[608] That's the thing both documentary makers also said they had some problems while they're filming because it's that constant dichotomy of your jugglers have just horrific things they've done particularly like with murders with hatchets etc that can't be denied but their experience was you know our car broke down and actually like helped us with all this gear and they were like quite drunk and high but there was no threats of violence we just had a really great time shooting with them and i've made my documentary and it worked out really well and i hope i'm clear monica at no point am i trying to excuse anyone that had been violent because this is their self -defense mechanism.
[609] I'm only trying to recognize how does it get to that point?
[610] Well, I think here's all the ingredients.
[611] You're laughed at.
[612] You're not accelerating through school as you're supposed to.
[613] Once you don't do that, you're not going to ever have a job that's because your life is fucking done.
[614] I get that.
[615] There's an upstream issue, but the end result, what do we do?
[616] Yeah.
[617] Are you saying that just sitting in and accepting it and not wanting something better is a problem potentially?
[618] Yeah, I mean, I think that's a through line in general.
[619] Like, I mean, it should giving up be a thing to aspire to.
[620] Exactly.
[621] That's not ever my argument.
[622] It's like when I argue that we should be compassionate towards criminals and the judicial system, put them in jail.
[623] I want punishment.
[624] I want all the deterring factors that are applied to everyone, not just because I feel bad for these people.
[625] But I can do both things, you know?
[626] Yeah, we can do both things.
[627] I definitely don't think distinguishing them as a gang.
[628] is the answer.
[629] That's preposterous that they're all in a gang.
[630] Yeah, that's just a particularly wild thing that happened and terrifying.
[631] That's a side note that it's insane that the FBI has made it illegal for more than three of them to gather.
[632] Yeah, that is crazy.
[633] Yes, and again, and I'm only pointing out that it is very interesting, who has earned those distinctions, because you've got a ton of far right -wing Christian groups that are blowing up abortion clinics and are committing murders, but we are never going to label any more than three Christians gathering as a conspiracy.
[634] No, like, is that Phelps family that gathers and protests outside soldiers' funerals, you know.
[635] So we got to at least be honest about who we're willing to put the gang label on.
[636] In my opinion, that's a bigger issue than the 0 .01 % of juggalo's who went and committed murder.
[637] 100%.
[638] Yeah, and all this thing is so American to me, the fact that you can walk into a hot topic, which is a store, which is very funny to me. the idea that all these sort of genres are being commodified into like a mall store where you go in to look edgy just very funny to me but again because all those little rejects are at the mall and they want to send up a flag completely we're in this together and that's what that store does to people we're in this together go there you know buy some insane clown posse shirts if you're driving in the wrong part of America and there's like a bunch of you all in the car and you get pulled over like you have to watch yourself it's just such an outrageous concept it's so odd to me it's a big over correct it's a big over here so look i'm going to go to the gathering i don't know if rob do you want to come along on that particular road trip you know this could be the kind of thing i could attend because i could be in clown makeup and i would be anonymous i think it could be kind of wonderful yeah to get you to a gathering yeah i do too it's one of the few things you go out and not just yeah you're not going to be mobbed you can just be a juggalo for a day when you asked me what doc i saw and then when rob you brought up the vice thing all i could have have told you is that the amount of muddiness they were all comfortable with was such a like all my walk away was like man they don't mind being muddy like I would be so uncomfortable covered in that much mud they were relishing in it yeah I don't know how that ties in but it does seem like every gathering is just always a muddy field it's never green beauty it's always mud and what a metaphor for like where they see themselves yeah it's a part of the whole thing it's part of the whole thing just die yeah yeah whoop whoop whoop oh shit are we now on the list if either rob or monica now say whoop -whoop then this becomes a syndicate whoop whoop oh fuck we're dead