#1714 - Josh Dubin & Robert Jones

[0] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

[1] The Joe Rogan Experience.

[2] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[3] Gentlemen.

[4] What's up?

[5] How are you?

[6] Good to see you, man. See you, bro.

[7] Always.

[8] And Robert, very nice to meet you.

[9] That's a pleasure as well.

[10] Pull this sucker up right to your face.

[11] It moves around.

[12] Yeah, it's very...

[13] That's cool.

[14] Yeah, try to keep it like a fist from your face.

[15] All right.

[16] Before we...

[17] Let's just get into it.

[18] Let's explain Robert.

[19] Robert, why don't you get started with this?

[20] Explain how you came to know Robert and what his circumstances were.

[21] Yeah.

[22] In 2016, 2016, right?

[23] I was speaking in New Orleans.

[24] I was asked to speak at this conference of like hundreds of criminal defense attorneys with Barry Sheck, who founded the Innocence Project.

[25] And we were teaching a class, essentially, from the National Association of Criminal Defense lawyers.

[26] And Barry and I were giving a presentation in front of hundreds of lawyers about things that they could do to ensure that during jury selection and a trial, that you can expose prosecutorial misconduct, how you can make stronger legal pleas to get.

[27] what we call exculpatory evidence or evidence that would tend to show someone's innocence.

[28] So it was an hour -long speech, and Barry and I were, like, going in 15 -minute blocks.

[29] And at some point, while we're on the stage, and I feel like we're killing it, you know, I'm, like, feeling myself.

[30] Like, they're really loving this stuff.

[31] And at some point on stage, Barry goes to me, by the way, you know, we just had an exoneration here in New Orleans.

[32] And this guy might show up.

[33] and I said when was the exoneration he said just a couple of weeks ago and I said it's kind of a tricky thing to put him in a position to come up and speak in front of hundreds of lawyers and I said how long was he in for he said almost 24 years 23 years seven months for a vicious rape and murder that he didn't commit so we're wrapping up our speech and all of a sudden I see this man walk in the room and like a lot of heads turn around because it was at like a big hotel like ballroom and all the heads swung around because the door opened real loud and slammed so everybody is looking at this guy and I see this very well -dressed man and Barry you know it says oh and you know we have a very special treat for you this man just a few weeks ago was walked out of Angola one of the most violent penitentiaries in the country.

[34] And I feel like, you know, something bad is about to happen because I know what that's like to, at least I don't know what it's like, but I know what it's like to see somebody in the throes of just getting out.

[35] And they're usually shell -shocked in a way that is not conducive to public speaking.

[36] So this guy just strides up on the stage, grabs the mic, and, gives this this galvanizing speech where you know like you could see the jaws dropping open about how important it is to fight while you're in court and to not back down from judges that aren't letting you you know protect your client's constitutional rights and I'm sitting there watching him and I'm thinking to myself this I've never seen anything like this is special so rob robert and i met right there on the stage and uh we got to talking and then we went across the street to a bar and we had a more than a few cocktails and he he told me his whole story um about the crime about this awful you know set of prosecutors and detectives that covered up evidence and lied and were responsible for his incarceration.

[37] And I've said this to you before.

[38] These, you know, if you've never been in the presence of an exonerie, you don't really know, you know, really the true strength and, like, the triumph of the human spirit in a way that is very hard to describe.

[39] So, you know, 25 minutes in, we're at a very crowded bar in the French quarter, and I'm weeping.

[40] So this woman is sitting at the bar, and Robert puts his arm on me, he's like, it's all right, I'm going to be all right.

[41] And we had, like, one of those conversations where it was like we just connected in a way that was, you know, really extraordinary.

[42] And then I went on to help represent him in his civil rights case.

[43] And but that's how we met.

[44] I don't want to give away too much of his story because I'd rather him tell it.

[45] But that's how we met and then, you know, have kept in close contact over the last, you know, five years or so.

[46] And I say this with full confidence that none of it is hyperbole.

[47] You're in the presence of a miracle.

[48] I mean, what this man was able to endure, overcome, and accomplish since he's been out, is nothing short of mind -blown.

[49] I mean, he's a force of nature, and it's just such an honor to bring them here.

[50] How long have you been out, Robert?

[51] Five years or so.

[52] And has it, what has the transition been like from the first day you're out to now?

[53] Is it, have you, like, gradually become accustomed to this idea that they're not going to drag you back in?

[54] Have you, like, has freedom changed, like, the way it feels?

[55] Is it like normal now?

[56] Maybe after, after my charges was dismissed, I was released in 2015, but maybe two years after that, being threatened for a retry.

[57] After that was over, when the charges was actually dismissed on my 44th birthday, right?

[58] Which a day I'll never forget.

[59] I started feeling freedom from there in a sense because I wasn't tied into anything no more in the sense of...

[60] You didn't have it hovering.

[61] Right.

[62] So, yes, it's been a transition from the first day I got out until even to now a lot of things of getting accustomed to.

[63] And just the way the world is, right?

[64] You know, inside of prison, you live under a set of rules and guidelines.

[65] administrative and as a prisoner, right?

[66] They got their own set of rules, you know.

[67] And one of the things is about respect.

[68] Respect is huge, and just having that empathy for other people that's in the situation that you are in, right?

[69] So immediately when I got out, maybe by the first week I was out, I'm going to tell you, one of the transitional phases.

[70] out with a friend in a river walk like near the French Guards in New Orleans and I mean I just was talking and I seen the old lady crossing the streets old white lady on one of those canes like the full stand canes Yeah Like a walker Yeah like a walker right And it's like she's crossing the streets But these cars kind of like moving kind of fast and a lot of traffic, you know, and people blowing homes and different things of that nature.

[71] And I'm like looking at everybody like, ain't nobody going to help this over there?

[72] Like, she might get hit.

[73] You know, it might hit her, right?

[74] So I'm talking to my friend, but I'm constantly paying attention to what's going on, right?

[75] Pay attention to my surroundings.

[76] So I said, man, what the hell?

[77] I went to help her, make sure that she crossed the street safely.

[78] And when I got back to the other side, people were like clapping and pat me on my my back, I'm like, this is a fucked up, bro.

[79] Like, you're giving me accolades.

[80] We're doing a normal human thing.

[81] Right.

[82] Yeah, they're supposed to do.

[83] Yeah, absolutely.

[84] So I knew that I was in for hell of a transition.

[85] Just to see that people didn't have respect for one another.

[86] I mean, it's passing my people in the saying, excuse me, right?

[87] Open the door for women and older people and children, shit like that.

[88] So are you saying that there's more of that in prison?

[89] Well, in prison it's like, it's a lot of respect.

[90] Because when you don't respect nobody, I mean, that's consequences for it, right?

[91] Right.

[92] Maybe not those particular instance, but just that level and that mindset of having that level of respect, you know.

[93] If you're in your own space, a guy not going to invade your space, and if you invade space, that's consequences for that, right?

[94] So it's having that level of respect.

[95] So what I said is coming in a society and making that transition was, it was difficult in that aspect amongst a lot of other things.

[96] So you were 20 years old when they arrested you?

[97] 19.

[98] 19.

[99] And could you explain the circumstances, like what happened and how you found out about it?

[100] I found out about How do you find out You were being accused As something that you didn't do Well, actually They They came to my mom's house Knocking on the door banging on the door The police raided the house Pull out guns And saying they were looking for Me for some crimes And I was like I mean knowing I committed No crimes, right?

[101] So, like...

[102] You had never been in trouble before that?

[103] Little shit?

[104] Yeah, just normal things that people growing up in private they'd get in trouble for.

[105] Selling drugs, or this being, basically being a product of your environment and the things that you see and participate in.

[106] But not no shit I did was trying to, say I was involved in, like murder, robberies.

[107] rape, like, what the hell?

[108] And so when I was thinking in more terms of, okay, well, I'm just going to go to the station, and I told my mom, I can stay with me. I remember this, I said, I'll be back, be right back, because I know I didn't do shit, right?

[109] So I left out the house and went down to the station when they went to telling me about this murder out with child with these own robbers and rape them, like, man, y 'all people have lost your mind.

[110] Like, so me understanding the system as from what I was, I mean, for what was known, innocent people wasn't, it wasn't prevalent during that time.

[111] In 1992, it wasn't a huge thing where innocent people would get arrested for crimes and get convicted, right?

[112] So I'm thinking that when people commit crime, they get arrested, they go to jail.

[113] That's the standard norm, right?

[114] So I was under that presumption of assuming that, well, eventually they'll get their shit right once they go to talking to folks and different things of that nature.

[115] And so, yeah, it was mind -blunging.

[116] It's to be knowing I would charge of aggravated rape, first -degree murder at the time, and a whole slew of own robberies, you know.

[117] And what did they try to say they had on you as far as evidence?

[118] Well, a lot of that stuff kind of came out in the proceedings thereafter.

[119] I mean, initially during the arrest, they don't really tell you all that.

[120] You don't find these things out until eventually you're arrested.

[121] And I mean, because it was a British tourist that was involved in the, I mean, that was a part of the crime.

[122] So shit made national news.

[123] So I was on television, like, internationally.

[124] This case was, like, really huge because of publicity.

[125] So, I mean, half of the stuff technically, I would talk about I didn't even understand as to what was the evidence and, I mean, what they had against me or what have you, until I started going through the court proceedings.

[126] And, you know, they say they had eyewitnesses, then they didn't, and then they said they didn't have eyewitnesses.

[127] So in the Orleans Parish Jail, right, I stayed in the Orleans Parish Jail four years, four years before I was actually convicted.

[128] And that because the state case had a lot of difficulties in as it relates to the identification procedures that happened.

[129] and eventually I was end up convicted because a lot of things was with hell that showed that someone else actually committed the crime committed the crime.

[130] And they knew about this evidence that would have exonerated you.

[131] They knew about it.

[132] These motherfuckers, that to me is the craziest thing when I hear about that over and over and over again.

[133] Josh has brought this up, I don't know, to me, more than a dozen times horrific cases where the prosecutors absolutely knew that they were convicting an innocent person.

[134] They knew that there was evidence.

[135] They withheld that evidence.

[136] How the fuck do those people not wind up going to jail?

[137] That to me, wanting to put someone in jail for a crime that they're innocent of is almost as horrific as the crime you're charging the person with because you're ruining a life and you know better.

[138] You know better.

[139] willfully holding back innocent people's evidence that would exonerate them.

[140] That's insanity.

[141] You know, Robert and I probably have different perspectives on this.

[142] I went into this thinking, and when I say this, I mean this work.

[143] I went into this thinking these were just a bunch of malicious people that, you know, were out to frame young people of color.

[144] I don't think that that's always the case.

[145] think subconsciously it's there.

[146] I think that they become so focused on winning and believing their own hunches.

[147] And that's what happened in Robert's case, that they go down a path.

[148] And you'll never really know what their motivation is unless you could climb into their mind and they tell you.

[149] But I know in Robert's case, because I know the case really well, that they took the, I mean, I want you to explain it, but they took the word of people that claimed they can.

[150] identify him, they knew and had, it's not that they had reasonably, they knew that someone else committed this crime.

[151] And they had an obligation to turn that evidence over to Robert and his attorneys, and they affirmatively didn't.

[152] So, you know, what their motivation was is for people to figure out on their own, but it's infuriating.

[153] And I think that the only answer, we could talk about this probably later, about the reform work that Robert's doing, that we're doing.

[154] The only answer is that we need to change laws to make people more accountable as law enforcement officers and prosecutors to make sure that they can't just do this shit with impunity.

[155] Well, this should be a crime.

[156] It should be a crime of the highest order.

[157] If you want to imprison someone for something that you absolutely know they didn't commit, if you have the evidence that shows that that person's innocent and you withhold that evidence and still prosecute and convict them, that should be a horrific crime.

[158] You should never work in the criminal justice system again and you should lose your freedom if anything will motivate you motivate your your listeners to to believe what you're saying and to feel the same way i can think of no other way than to take you through this man's journey because even over dinner last night you know i you know i had to like turn away and not get emotional because i don't know how he did it i don't know how these people can have the where the the mental stability and find the wherewithal to not only survive in prison but to play such a instrumental role in their own release he's the smartest lawyer in the room so you know why don't you tell joe about how that how you even became a suspect and what some of the initial problems were with the case Yes.

[159] How it became initial suspect is they had a, well, allegedly, they had a false tip.

[160] It was a false tip that led the police to arrest me for these particular crimes, saying that they knew that I was involved in these crimes or what have you.

[161] Who gave them the false tip?

[162] it was anonymous.

[163] Anonymous.

[164] Was it someone that had a grudge against you, do you think?

[165] Was it someone that was just trying to throw themselves off the case?

[166] I really don't know that.

[167] You don't know?

[168] I really don't know.

[169] I don't know how that happened.

[170] But someone...

[171] Someone actually did it, right?

[172] And that's how easy someone in life can get thrown away and going to show you how things can take a different turn.

[173] So, you know, and a lot of these things, it didn't, and one way you look at a lot of times that, I mean, growing up in the disgrace neighborhoods and growing up in the poor neighborhoods, you're young, you're black, a crime happened to a tourist, white tourists, a lot of people is looking at the city, because tourists, tourism as I learned I didn't know these things now but as I learned why I was incarcerated no tourism is a big attraction for the city of New Orleans there was a British tourist and a lot of news cover nationally like this shit got to get done somebody got to go to jail for this right right this something have to happen and so you know when you take all those things into a account and somebody allegedly called and said that I had something to do with the crime I get arrested I mean, when I got arrested, as I said, you know, I grew up, and I can go off into this.

[174] You know, I grew up in poor neighborhoods and poor environments.

[175] I come from a single -parent household.

[176] I was the elder of five other siblings, which is one that's deceased now, because I essentially became a product of my environment.

[177] in the sense of maybe, you know, telling drugs and doing things that normal teens do in those kind of environments.

[178] Eventually, I dropped out of school and maybe a few years after that I ended up getting arrested for these crimes, right?

[179] So when I went to prison, went to the jail first, and they eventually going to prison.

[180] Only then I was equipped with a lot of courage, shriek common sense and that's it that's it I mean I can read to the extent to get myself by but I wasn't an external reader right?

[181] This had a lot of common sense and a lot of courage so I mean going through that process was horrible it was horrific and it was really horrific in a sense because in more in terms of I went through that system, and I tell folks all the time, it's like standing before a system, and they're speaking a whole nother language to me. Legally's.

[182] Jogging.

[183] The legal jargon and terminology is that totally didn't understand.

[184] They didn't understand that were a period, right?

[185] So, going from that and being in the parish prison, have to use my courage and my scrounge.

[186] from growing up in poor environments that survive inside this institution or jail was horrific, I mean.

[187] Did you still have hope that they were going to figure out that you were innocent because you were innocent?

[188] Right.

[189] I still had a lot of hope because I didn't know, as I said, innocent people wasn't into my knowledge until the world knowledge in 1992.

[190] It wasn't really prevalent that innocent people get in comfort.

[191] I mean, get found guilty, right?

[192] Right.

[193] So I still had like a smission of hope even in the parish.

[194] Like, they're going to venture to get this shit right.

[195] Or if I go to trial, nobody's going to find me guilty because I know I'm innocent.

[196] Just living off, just holding on to that, right?

[197] But as the time went on me, being in the parish, I started seeing guys that was getting convicted and they actually were saying that it was innocent.

[198] I'm like, he lied because that shit don't happen, right?

[199] You must be lying, right?

[200] That shit don't happen.

[201] I'm like, and God was more like convincing.

[202] I'm like, okay, maybe that can't blame or happen to me, right?

[203] So when the shit happened to me, I'm like, so it was like mind -blugging to us and it's like, man, it was crazy.

[204] Robert, did they assign a defense tourney for you, right?

[205] A public defender?

[206] No, I had Yes and no Because what happened was I hired a guy But my family was poor They couldn't really afford him And I think he was apparently At some level of the case Right And Yeah so And that That was the gist of that But Man It was so much stacks against me though To the extent of man like I need a dream team yeah you needed this a serious group of actual excellent defenders who could go through all this information and and with a lot of work right find out that you were innocent but did you get you got a public defender eventually no he was a private attorney so you had this private attorney when you had conversations with him initially and you were trying to explain that you had nothing to do with this what was his initial reaction and what was his plan like what how did he did he try to reassure you what was his conversations with you like a lot of his conversation was that I think I think we can beat this I think we could be this predicated on if I get this information if I get this if I get this and I was like okay if you can get this then you know what was the information they wanted to get it you know different reports, supplement reports and different things of that that he kept on fighting for that the coach were rejecting him on.

[207] He was like, man, I need that supplement report.

[208] I need to get this report.

[209] And it's weird because a lot of the things that he were requesting for eventually years later, a lot of years later, after I was found guilty, me litigating my own case.

[210] And and working with the innocent project of New Orleans where they was able to provide the resources to investigators some of these same documents that this guy was looking for with some of the documents that has exculpatory evidence withheld inside these documents and other documents as well but for the most part so I got understood why he was looking for those things but he always telling me like man we can do this and we maybe can do this if this happened and this happened.

[211] But a lot of things never happened.

[212] Did you learn law when you were in prison?

[213] Yeah.

[214] And I can tell you about that.

[215] That was a long journey.

[216] And it was a long and it was a fast journey because I was left with no other options.

[217] As I said, after being convicted, I'm maybe about 20, years old, and I went to Angola.

[218] When I first went there, I look at a lot of the guys who was already there.

[219] When I got there, they had the guys who was down like 25, 30 years, 25, 40 years.

[220] You know, I'm like, what?

[221] You've been locked up that long?

[222] And I'm a person that I observe a lot and, you know, I think a lot, right?

[223] And I strategize a lot.

[224] So when I actually just look at a lot of these guys was talking to a lot of them, I noticed that these guys was uneducated.

[225] They didn't know the law, and they didn't have a lot of outside resources and connection with their families and other people, you know.

[226] So I kind of like picked those three things out of like, what the hell?

[227] And they explained to me why those things happen.

[228] They've been there so long they lose, you know, to get out of touch with a lot of family members and different things of that nature and they don't worry about educating themselves because they're worried about how to defend themselves all those years.

[229] So all those things kind of like put them in that situation a lot of them, not all of them, but most of them was always angry guys, there was bitter, there was extremely dangerous.

[230] And I kind of like use those guys as a mirror, like, I'm not going to be like that, right?

[231] So I kind of like took the opposite direction, but what happened was very interesting, that actually changed my life.

[232] Me getting found guilty was like one of the more horrific, traumatizing thing in my entire life, right?

[233] That was at that time.

[234] But within that same year, I lost a brother, my younger brother, he was killed in the former street violence and what have you, right?

[235] And I sort of like felt, and I can laugh about it now, but I used to cry all the time when I talk about it.

[236] I can laugh about it now because I sort of understand and I'm able to accept it, right?

[237] But I felt kind of responsible for his debt in a sense, even though I was incarcerated, and he was free.

[238] But the reason why he was killed because he was selling drugs not to justify his means because that's all he knew because the environment he grew up in.

[239] He was selling drugs to raise money the higher turn to get me out of prison.

[240] And I felt really horrible and bad about that, man, you know?

[241] So, you know, I threw the months and weeks or whatever, I felt so depressed actually wanted to kill myself because I couldn't even go to the funeral, you know, so all these things I was really, I was thinking about coming suicide and everything.

[242] But what happened was, interestingly, what happened was, a guy who I met when I first got there, one of the guys who I got very close with in the sense of, because me and them had a subject matter that we can relate to.

[243] When I was seven years old, I lost my father.

[244] My father was killed.

[245] Yeah, my father was killed, but my father was a boxer, right?

[246] And so after my father was killed, like, for maybe a couple of years after his trainers, they wanted to, like, man, your dad was so good.

[247] We want to keep this bloodline going.

[248] Like, you got to go ahead and try to be a boxer.

[249] So they kind of like usher me in that mood, and I started training, and I started understanding dynamics and the concept of the basic.

[250] basics of boxing how old are you how what I was doing when they started training you maybe eight eight to me about 11 or 12 something to that in that right it was a couple of years I stayed and going back and forward was this something you wanted to do is there something that you felt like they were just trying to push you into doing I think they was pushing me to it's nothing that I actually didn't want to do but that's why I stopped doing it right right eventually I stopped doing it and did something else.

[251] But, so me and this guy who I'm speaking of had this kind of relationship as it relates to, because he was a boxing trainer inside the institution.

[252] And me and I mean, I have discussion about certain things, about how you train guys.

[253] It's like, you know, if you train a guy to be aggressive in a sense, don't hit him too much with the midglobs, because you're going to make them a defensive, you know?

[254] And that kind of, just different things like that, right?

[255] So we had these kind of discussions, and so he was the one that kind of came to my aid when I was going through the dramatic process with my brother being killed, right?

[256] I was walking in y 'all was crying one day, and he just walked up to me like, man, what's going on?

[257] I'm like, man, I don't really want to talk about it, you know?

[258] I'm like, man, just getting in my space.

[259] He was like, man, no, man, you're my friend.

[260] I won't, I'm going to help you.

[261] He said, let me tell you this, and you might understand this.

[262] He said that life is life's boxing, right?

[263] He said, every time life throw a punch at you, you got to do a counter punch.

[264] And he said, if you don't throw a counter punch, life would just knock you out, just like I can get knocked out in the ring.

[265] And I'm like, it ain't dawn on me when you told me. When I went back to myself, I'm like, you know what?

[266] this guy is fucking right you know I got to fight back I can't just you know just sit back and continue on to blame the system oh do the system is that fault and blame other people for what they ain't doing I got to fight and that conversation sparked something to me and actually changed my life so from there I enrolled myself in a literacy program inside the institution, and it's funny now when I think about it because they started me out in the third grade.

[267] I dropped out in the eighth grade, but they started me out in the third grade in the literacy program, and which I excel, those programs extremely fast because I'm like, what the hell, third grade?

[268] But I was glad I had to take that route, right?

[269] Because I wanted to relearn all those things and fresher myself up.

[270] And eventually I got that to GED school and at the same time I was studying the law right?

[271] Because I knew I said man my brother was gone he technically was my only financial resource that I had or a change that I ever had was of getting an attorney my family couldn't afford it right so that led him to what he was doing to try to help me so I was like I got to do this shit myself ain't no way I'm going to get experience in the law if I don't know how to if I don't have no academic skills, right?

[272] So I got to master this shit and they came back to these different things I'm like all these guys that've been there all this time they were uneducated that meant I got to get educated they didn't know the law that means I got to master this shit right and they didn't have no resources I got to get resources so that's all I ever focus on So inside the institution, after, you know, I studied a law for years, and I went in from the Constitution all the way up to, man, I studied everything about the law.

[273] To the point is I started taking corresponding courses in various aspects of laws on different branches, criminal, civil.

[274] and I started studying politics started studying all this stuff and one of the things reason why I didn't want to be the smartest person inside and go to prison but I didn't want to be that same 19 -year -old kid that stood before the courtroom and didn't understand shit that was going on in front of me right and I wanted to be educated enough to help myself get out of prison and stay out of prison and change the system So that was brought on that level of education.

[275] So for many years, and one of the things I maintain a lot of my resources I get, got a lot of resources is a lot of people used to spend a lot of their money in the commissary, and which I used to spend money in the commissary as well.

[276] But a lot of my money I used to sacrifice, so I told him I'm a very strategic person.

[277] I used to invest in 100 stamps a month, and I said if I, and I think stamp was maybe 25 cents, 29 cents during the time.

[278] So it was more than, it was less than $30 a month, right, for the, for the, for to get me 100 stamps.

[279] So if I, I say, if I can write 100 people in a month, and if three people respond from, The 100 people I wrote and bring me help, that's a third dollar of investment, right?

[280] For me to actually get the help that I need and to get my freedom.

[281] And who are you writing to?

[282] Everybody.

[283] I wrote the President of the United States.

[284] I wrote the federal government.

[285] I wrote everybody.

[286] And I started talking over the period of years, I started talking to certain people, investigators, lawyers.

[287] Then when I started hearing about the innocent projects, that was surfacing around the country.

[288] I started writing them.

[289] And eventually, it worked out, all right?

[290] But prior to those folks coming on and bringing the resources to help me, I was litigating my own cases.

[291] I was litigating cases for other guys inside the institution.

[292] I had got so good at litigating to the extent I was winning cases in the high state court, the circuit courts.

[293] I was getting guys like hearings.

[294] I had an impeccable prison record for us rehabilitate myself.

[295] I completed all the self -help programs.

[296] I was in charge of three of the organizations there that was creating programs for guys.

[297] I mean, it was a whole lot of things I was doing.

[298] I didn't have like ruling fractions for like expand from like 10 to 15 years, and which is, it's hard to do.

[299] What do you mean by that?

[300] Rule infractions, 10 to 15 years.

[301] But getting a write -up.

[302] What do you mean?

[303] Inside, when you're in prison, it's like a ruling fraction is like they got a set of rules, really strict rules.

[304] And if you violate in any kind of way, they call that a write -up or a ruling fraction.

[305] Okay.

[306] And it's hard that get that inside the institution, not to get write -ups, right?

[307] Right.

[308] Because they got, some guards, you, this don't like you, or whatever, they might get you to do something that you don't want to do.

[309] So it's hard to balance those things, but I managed to do that, right?

[310] And I was getting all these, help for these guys, getting reversible guys, and some guys was getting less of sentencing and getting out of prison.

[311] I'm like, I can't help myself.

[312] I can't win shit for myself, you know.

[313] And I had all the right things.

[314] As a matter of fact, some of the very same issue.

[315] that I eventually got out on when I had the resources, some of the very same issues that I was litigating myself like years before I got out.

[316] Like, why I couldn't get out then?

[317] Well, I just didn't have the resources.

[318] So, yeah, that's all, like, explained, you know, my level of educating myself to the extent of, I've learned all these things, man, you know?

[319] you know i was joe last night you know i know robert now for five years and i almost i told him last night i was like i almost feel ashamed to ask you this because i got this reputation as like this real aggressive hard -charging um attorney when it comes to these innocence cases and that i'll say things that other people may be you know, a little bit more reluctant to say to a judge and, you know, I'm not the traditional attorney.

[320] But I, and I said to Robert last night, you know, but I don't kid myself that when it comes to toughness, I can't even wrap my head around trying to get it in your mind space where you're having ninth grade education.

[321] You're put in prison for something you didn't do.

[322] And I know myself and know that I would have been a puddle and I don't know how I would have survived, let alone had the wherewithal to overcome what he overcame.

[323] So he was telling me a story last night about how, because I said, I know Angola is one of the most dangerous penitentiaries in the country.

[324] It's a very violent place full of very violent people.

[325] and has a long sorted past of not having oversight there's murders there's everything that you think about when you think of nightmares in a penitentiary happens there maybe twofold that's a guess but it's a very violent place suffice to say so I said well how did you navigate that and I'm you know I'm not going to put you on the spot to explain it I mean I love to hear that shit because, you know, he very early on, he said, I got that out of the way right away so that I could focus on, I identified these three things and wanted to do the opposite of what people lacked.

[326] In other words, he said, the people that weren't getting out of there had no education, didn't know the law, and had no support.

[327] He said, I was going to get those three things and I made that decision early and I realized if I don't get respect to be able to focus on those three things and I'm going to have to worry about violence the whole time and protecting myself so just the contours you could hear these words about people getting out and I just that's why I think this is so important that people understand the contours of the suffering and the practical considerations of survival that he had to go through.

[328] I mean, if you feel comfortable telling some of those stories, you should because I think it helps people understand what you have to deal with just to stay alive.

[329] Right.

[330] Just to fend off assaults.

[331] Right, right.

[332] And, yeah, it's...

[333] So you had to get that out of the way.

[334] You had to make that a non -issue.

[335] Right.

[336] You had to concentrate on all the things that you needed to concentrate on to get you out of jail.

[337] So how did you manage to avoid all that violence?

[338] By addressing the head -on, you know, and that became, that because of who I am as a person.

[339] I'm just a very courageous type person.

[340] But the environment I was raised in, it groomed you to be tough.

[341] right groom you to be tough and you know as one thing when I got there I was saying okay I'm gonna come in I'm gonna leave out just like I came in I came in a man and I'm gonna leave out there like that when it you know if it's for me to get out of the prison I say I'm a leave out so I'm gonna keep my dignity and my pride and I'm gonna stand up so once I seeing how that was then in a situation that confronted me in other words it's like you bring me ignorance I'm gonna bring your ignorance like you've never seen before right you know matter how small I am how big you are how many of you are you are if you you bring me bullshit I'm gonna get you a cesspool I'm going to always go hide in your ignorance, right?

[342] And having that mindset, so, you know, and I had some instance where, and like I said, it was a good boxer, it was a good fighter.

[343] And, you know, I had a mindset because I understood boxing.

[344] It's like, you know, when I'm boxing, you know, if I'm in the rank, I can't hit below the belt, right?

[345] But if I'm fighting you on the street, I'm trying to win.

[346] I mean, I'm going to bite your ass.

[347] I'm going to poke your eyes.

[348] eyes out, I'm a razzle you.

[349] They ain't got no damn rules.

[350] I'm trying to win.

[351] And me having that mindset of defending myself what years later came to I had to use weapons.

[352] So I had a mindset and I had incident after incident until until guys realized that this guy, he ain't to be fucked with.

[353] Right?

[354] and he's not afraid because most guys are afraid.

[355] In other words, like, if me and you exchange words, I'm giving you a primary example.

[356] Like, fuck you.

[357] My fuck you is a physical competition.

[358] Your fuck you is a verbal mind physical competition.

[359] I'm always going higher than your ignorance, right?

[360] And me having that mindset, I protected myself to the extent a lot of boy shit stayed around from ramen not that guy has feared me but it's like you were too much danger yeah if you cross his pat he's gonna he gonna bring you the best he told me about he's the second day he was in the parish jail yeah well you tell it because I said how quickly did you have to establish that you know well you don't have to tell all the gritty details Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[361] Or you can.

[362] You know, the second days is being in arrested for the crimes and charges.

[363] I had to, I went in a situation of like, okay, I'm going to be here, so I had to kind of like see how things was moving around.

[364] So it was a situation where the stronger guys would get more food and the weaker guys that kind of.

[365] to get less of food.

[366] And there's certain things that was happening, right?

[367] The stronger guys eat first and the weaker guys eat less.

[368] And I'm like, I ain't either one of these kind of guys, so I'm going to get my shit straight now.

[369] You know, so incident occurred.

[370] I was able to manage to take care of my business in the sense of challenging one of the guys.

[371] And eventually it got to a level where guys had respected me from doing that because I was a newcomer that was coming into it, and I took it up on myself to actually challenge this guy and confront one of these guys and dominated the situation into the extent where everybody started giving me a level of respect, you know, to an extent like, you know, he's a newcomer, but he ain't not the...

[372] So I kind of like mimic that same way.

[373] role, a concept when I got to Angola to establish myself first.

[374] And like I say, it occurred over the period of years, over the period of years, but eventually the shit this like starts smoothing out, you know, even though it's still happening around me, all around me, guys were getting killed, I didn't see a lot of that stuff, you know, guys, you know, it's horrible, you know, but I just was there and not there because I was focused, man. I was trying to get out of prison.

[375] I know I ain't belonging there for number one.

[376] And I know what I had to do in order for to put myself in the position to win.

[377] How difficult was it to stay on track?

[378] You're in there for 24 years for something that you didn't do.

[379] Like, was it hard not to lose hope?

[380] Yeah.

[381] It's, I wouldn't, you, it's always a, And people can tell you this is as much as strong as, strongest as people say I am and other people are that come from a wrongful fiction inside of institution.

[382] And I think that's like one of the most two feared things that they say and I will agree with it that scientists and other people say man is two worse as fears of dying and being terminally ill, right?

[383] That's too ill. So, me having all the hope and saying, man, I'm going to get out of here.

[384] I'm going to get out of year.

[385] Didn't really know how, how that was going to happen, but it's a level of faith that you got to hold on until, right?

[386] But somewhere in your back in your mind because you constantly seeing it every day.

[387] And in Angola, guys been now incarcerated for so long They die almost every day A lot of people don't know that People die in that institution every day And you're seeing this shit They're dying of old age They're dying for murder Old age Old age You know they've been there for so long How many people are in Angola locked up More than 5 ,000 They have their own TV station Radio station Magazine It's like a world and, you know, what's, what's hard to, you know, and the reason why I think that this is so important is because you have to transport yourself and allow yourself to go, you know, he gave the story short shrift.

[388] What happens is the second day he's in there, you know, the guys that are there for a long time, they call him a new jack.

[389] they he was first in line he got out of his cell first and he's ready to go get food and he said he saw on the first day that what happened is they come out with loaves of bread the guys that have been there for the longest take all the bread and leave the ends for the new jacks so he was out of his cell and was the third in line and one of the guys was like you need to get your ass to the back of the line and he was like okay And he went to the back of the line.

[390] And then when it came time to eat, the guy that put him to the back of the line didn't end up eating.

[391] He ended up on the floor.

[392] And to protect the details, you know, Robert put him on the floor as a way to say, okay, if you kick me to the back of the line, I'm not going to have words with you.

[393] I'm going to make you feel it so that no one's sending me to the back of the line because I'm going to eat like everybody else.

[394] Right.

[395] And that takes a level of ballziness, I think.

[396] Yeah, and to also interject into the story, yeah, and when he told me to get to the back of the line, actually, I didn't go to the back of the line.

[397] Another guy allowed me to get, like, maybe three spots behind him because he were like, that's bull crap.

[398] But I already had it in my mind, like, I'm going to kick his ass.

[399] I'm going to kick his.

[400] Thank God you knew how to fight.

[401] Yeah, I'm going to kick his ass.

[402] Dad or either pick up something and use it as a weapon on him.

[403] And eventually I did.

[404] To care my business, I put his ass on the ground and I pulled the blood.

[405] And I let everybody know on both sides of tears, a tear that was maybe 56 people.

[406] I let everybody know on the pie that.

[407] I ain't the one.

[408] And if you think I'm just talking or I'm just verbally just saying these things, if you just give me a fair chance with each one of y 'all that feel that way and I kick everybody, I kick all y 'all ass.

[409] And I wasn't, I mean, I know I can't beat everybody in the world, but I damn try, right?

[410] So me, during that, that's what's kind of like, hold up, man, this little guy, you ain't something, something else.

[411] else, right?

[412] So eventually, start getting my little respect.

[413] I ate just like everybody else ate, the ones who was doing what they was doing.

[414] And eventually, over the period of time, a lot of that stuff I got upset with because it wasn't right.

[415] I'm all a fair person, right?

[416] So eventually, I end up taking a guy's job and what they call like tear reps, right?

[417] You're a rep for this these guys and, you know, so I ended up getting into the competition with the guy took his position and from that person I was in the parish I always maintained that kind of position that's being a representative for a lot of these guys and guys wanted me with that position because not that I was didn't know I wasn't aside with the administration right?

[418] They didn't know I'm going to play a fair across the board like the administration was to bring me a plan that I know that wasn't going to feed the 50 people, I'm going to slide that shit back out of the door.

[419] We're not eating, right?

[420] We're going on ban.

[421] We're going to ban.

[422] We're not going to eat because I'm not going to take that and feed all these men.

[423] It's not enough food.

[424] And having that kind of, it gives a lot of people a lot of respect for me. Why I was there?

[425] Like I said, I still went through shit that everybody else going through by being in jail.

[426] So they gave you, like they would give you a plan for how much food everybody would get?

[427] And then you would be able to negotiate with them?

[428] No, in the parish deal, what happened was, you know, like...

[429] Robert, try to talk into the microphone.

[430] Just pull it up towards you.

[431] Or move your seat, it doesn't matter.

[432] Yeah, so what happens is they, if they give you a pan of red beans, right, and a pan of rice, and it may not be, it's not enough.

[433] It's supposed to have two pans and maybe two pans of rice or a pan and a half a rice and all the feed that, in order for to give people amount of food that's going to make them full.

[434] Now, it might be enough for somebody else to serve and skim guys on the trade, not giving them a lot of food, but I'm not going to accept that, to feed them guys.

[435] I'm not going to do that.

[436] You might do that with somebody help.

[437] You're not going to...

[438] So you were able to negotiate?

[439] You were able to get more food?

[440] Yes.

[441] Every time.

[442] Every time.

[443] And guys respected me for that because I was able to play fair across the ball on those different levels there.

[444] You know, and that's who I am.

[445] And I'm just a fair person.

[446] So how many years did it take you before you started to see the light at the end of the tunnel?

[447] How many years did it take you before you were...

[448] able to get people to review your case and recognize you had been wrongly convicted?

[449] They had, you know, maybe I thought, no, I can tell you this.

[450] It's what happens.

[451] And unbelievable.

[452] I got convicted in 1996.

[453] I filed my first post -conviction as a, what they call pro se litigant, litigant, me and I did it myself.

[454] And in the year of 2000, I received the evidentiary hearing, which is a hearing without no attorney.

[455] And my issue was mainly was about the DNA testing.

[456] I was asking the courts to preserve the testin if there's any testing, If there's any testing that's available to preserve the DNA testing, so I can test it and prove my innocence.

[457] And I got granted evidence in hearing from a motion I did.

[458] Well, unbeknownst to me years later, that was the first ever of a motion that was granted on that capacity because they end up creating a law for.

[459] to preserve DNA testing.

[460] That's way after I did this in 2000 in the year 2000, right?

[461] I was like so ahead of time with this filing.

[462] And I didn't even know it.

[463] So from there, I ended up getting denied in the courts and this is a whole chain of other things.

[464] But I may be, I think in 2000 2010 or 11 that the Innocent Project, New Orleans, came on board to bring their resource to help me out.

[465] And even after that, even after that, I still was getting denials with them, right?

[466] We still was getting denials.

[467] So, and I tell people all the time, it's like, you know, I threw out of the course of 23 years and seven months.

[468] I had 16 denials from every court, from the lower courts to the middle courts to the highest court.

[469] And let's think about what's happening here, by the way.

[470] What's happening here, just to put this into context, is that Robert is asking the court to order the prosecutors preserve the biological evidence from the crime scene.

[471] This was a rape and a murder.

[472] they had collected evidence and he is saying to them please don't destroy the evidence because I want to prove my innocence and I've talked to you about this before about how prosecutors and state politicians fight this being made a law all over the country and they come up with excuses like well then we're going to have a rash of people that want to their evidence preserved and retested, there'll be a run on the courts.

[473] I mean, this seems to me to be a fundamental human right, okay, of somebody that's accused of a crime that on the strength of snitch testimony and hidden evidence, which we're going to get to what was hidden from him and his legal team in a minute, that he is fighting a seven -year battle, excuse me, a 14 -year battle just to try to get somebody to help him get an order from the court to preserve the DNA.

[474] I would like to say that this is an anomaly and that this only happened in Robert's case.

[475] It happens in way too many cases that I've handled and that the Innocence Project handles in the criminal justice reform organizations handle all over the country.

[476] So a lot of what we of what I get as a result of speaking out is how can I help.

[477] One of the ways you can help is, you know, your voice matters when you are voting for elected officials.

[478] Your voice matters when you are writing a letter to a governor.

[479] Your voice matters if you show up at a town hall meeting.

[480] It really does all matter.

[481] And we have to keep on pounding the beating the drum to make sure that fundamental rights like this laws to protect these rights are enacted.

[482] But I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that before I lost the thought.

[483] Right.

[484] Right.

[485] Because by the time the Innocence Project of New Orleans comes along, and eventually Barry Sheck and my dear friend Nina Morrison, who were at, you know, Barry is, but Nina's one of the leaders at the Innocence Project in New York.

[486] She just got, you know, put forth as a potential federal judge pick.

[487] She'd be an amazing choice.

[488] Really started to take his case on and expose all of this evidence that was hidden.

[489] But prior.

[490] to that, he was, you know, a one -legged man in a shit -kicking contest to say the least.

[491] I mean, he's fighting this all on his own.

[492] But go ahead.

[493] I don't want to...

[494] Yeah.

[495] And, well, not only did a lot of my pleadings was about preserving the evidence, it was also about all the withheld evidence and all the things that actually pertinent to my innocence.

[496] So this one pleading, it was multiple pleadings that I were followed, that was following throughout the like the span of time so as I said these 16 denials came over the course of the 23 years and seven months and trust me each one of them denials felt like a guilty verdict all over again every one of them right well well eventually they became numb to like this shit it's all the same right like one denials feel like the same You know, even though it hurt because you've been to build yourself up to the extent, like, all right, I'm doing all this amazing shit, I'm re -educated myself, I'm doing all this great shit, but what the hell?

[497] I'm still not out of prison.

[498] And so when the Innocent Project of New Orleans was able to bring all the resources, we still was getting denial, still getting with denial.

[499] I'm like, God damn, I got the facts, I got the law on my side, like, what the hell?

[500] you know and you know you you hold on to the hope but you know it's always in the back of your mind to get back to this piece it's always in the back of your mind like man it's a possibility that might die here right and something that you dread you know that's one of the worst thing for any person incarcerated especially like when you're innocent like there's a reasonable probability that I might die here how many guys you think you met in jail that were innocent, that we're probably going to die there?

[501] I mean, a lot of innocent guys in there, but I also met a lot of guys who actually die, right?

[502] Because, like, in some instance, when I was in prison, I used to work for this hospice program.

[503] We deal with a lot of the elderly, the terminally ill prisoners over there on the hospital wall, in the hospital wall, right?

[504] You go to, you go over there and you care for them and do these things for these guys.

[505] And a lot of those guys who, right before they die, like, you know, because I share my story and let them know I was innocent, you know.

[506] And they're like, it was in their right mind.

[507] It's like, Rob, I'm innocent, man. I'm innocent.

[508] And I'm like, not all of them, but I, I, I don't.

[509] I didn't had that conversation with a lot of them.

[510] And I'm like, okay, he's got no reason to lie.

[511] He's about to die.

[512] Right?

[513] Yeah.

[514] There's no reason for him to lie, right?

[515] As nothing that could happen.

[516] And so I believed them, right?

[517] So, and it was quite a few of them that came into the junction of expressing that they were innocent.

[518] I'm glad you're wearing that T -shirt.

[519] the death penalty kills innocent people because I think there's a lot of people that have this sort of hard -nosed idea that the death penalty is a good thing because it kills people who do bad things and it's very simplistic but the problem with that is the legal system is very, very, very flawed, very flawed.

[520] So this idea that the death penalty kills innocent people is a very important idea and people need to understand that for your, in your case, your situation, it's not unusual.

[521] This story that you're telling, it's unique and it's amazing that you went through it and that you figured out a way to educate yourself and to get yourself out, but you're not an unusual case in that there's a lot of innocent people that get locked up.

[522] That's right.

[523] Look at the back of my shirt.

[524] Those all innocent.

[525] people who were killed those are all those are all innocent people that were convicted and sentenced to death and have since been exonerated right so clement de geary's on the back of the shirt you've heard his story before and um you know we're going to talk a little bit later about some cases of people that are still on that are still on death row right now um that there are strong strong strong cases for innocence for them and you know you touched on something really important which is that when you hear about a horrific crime i think it's human nature i for now yeah yeah and there's this really fascinating thing that happens during the death penalty case the first phase of jury selection is called death qualification it's a pretty shitty name for it and it's this phase where you are there to gauge people's feelings about the death penalty.

[526] And having gone through jury selection and death penalty cases, it's rather fascinating sort of human experiment, if you think about it, because what the Supreme Court of the United States, not of any particular state has said, is that if a state is going to put someone to death, you have to have this process by which you cannot have, people on the jury.

[527] This is a bit of an oversimplification, but you cannot have people on the jury that feel that if somebody is convicted of a capital case and a capital crime that you will automatically vote for the death penalty, and you also can't have people on the jury that are so against the death penalty that they'll never vote for it.

[528] Now, during this process of gauging people's feelings about the death penalty, you get to have a conversation with them.

[529] And you can see the conflict, the emotional tumult in their words, in their body language, in wrestling with, well, if somebody would, you know, murder a child or, you know, they deserve to die.

[530] But then you also, you know, see, but how, but unless I know 100 % they did it, I don't know if it makes sense to hold that.

[531] And you see this wrestling, this existential wrestling going on then.

[532] There are some people that come in and say, that's right.

[533] I'm definitely voting for death if I think they did it.

[534] And, you know, it's fraught with so many problems because of the finality of it, right?

[535] And, you know, people have different philosophical beliefs.

[536] But if you knew the sheer number of people that, you know, Florida leads the nation in death row exonerations, it's had, it would have put 30 people to death that were actually innocent that have been exonerated from Florida's death row.

[537] Over what period time?

[538] 30 or so years.

[539] So that would be, you know, one person, one person a year.

[540] innocent person killed on the death.

[541] So, yeah, we all, I think a lot of criminal justice reform is about, we live in a society that so if you're not this, you're that, you're either on this team or that team.

[542] It's a very binary.

[543] Simplified.

[544] Yeah, zero -sum game.

[545] And, you know, I think human existence is far more complicated, and there are too many layers of gray areas that, you know, everybody should really see.

[546] stop and pump the brakes in their thought process and not be so wedded to how they were brought up or what their parents believe or what they think their friends believe and really take stock of you know what am I really about and what do I stand for you know I say often that I stand in all of these exoneries because even as I'm listening to it today I'm hearing it and I know the story but to know what what Robert had to endure um It's just hard to imagine how a human being could get past it.

[547] I mean, he told me about the first time he saw people go for food in jail.

[548] And he said it was like a bunch of fucking savages, you know, running after food and grabbing it and running away.

[549] He said, I thought it looked to me. It was like, you know, I think what you said, it was like paralyzing to me because it was like, you know, I saw human beings in their most sort of primitive form.

[550] And he said, well, this is different.

[551] you know I'm in a battle yeah Robert can you explain some of the what you ended up finding out was hidden from you what was the exculpatory evidence well they were they were held that uh first of all first of all maybe I can explain the crimes right that was a a crime that happened in the French quarters in New Orleans.

[552] It was, I think, three armed robberies, a rape and and kidnapping.

[553] And a murder was tied to that.

[554] So they took all these crimes and said it was a part of a spree.

[555] They had a car that was involved in the crime.

[556] And they eventually, over the period of, well, over the couple of weeks after the crime happened, maybe, they found out who the car that was involved.

[557] And during the time when it was during the investigation, my name came up as the anonymous tip came in, right?

[558] So what they did was they eventually arrested me and connected me to the car.

[559] that was actually using in all these sprees of crime, including the murder, the robbery, the kidnappings, and the rape.

[560] And years later, eventually found out that another guy got arrested for the murder and was connected.

[561] In his possession, he had possessed.

[562] jury and articles of evidence from each crime spree.

[563] From each of the victims.

[564] He had jewelry from the woman that was robbed.

[565] He had clothing from one of the other women, I think the woman that was raped.

[566] Right.

[567] And they never turned this over to him.

[568] Right.

[569] And so, yeah, they would have held that from it.

[570] That was that.

[571] How did they connect you with the car?

[572] That's what I'm about to explain.

[573] They connected me the car.

[574] How they connected me with the car?

[575] The prosecutor theory was that, like, when they arrested this guy, they got him to say that me and him was friends.

[576] And he allowed me to use the car, right?

[577] At times, to commit the crime.

[578] but all the evidence suggests it differently.

[579] And so at trial, what they did was they charged, he got convicted of the actual murder, right?

[580] He got convicted of murder, and they separated him from the other crimes, and they charged me with the other crimes, right?

[581] But unbeknownst to me on a day of trial that I was, for the rape, kidnapping, and the own robberies, that he told the prosecutor that I had nothing to do with, none of crimes that he, I never used to car, none of that, right?

[582] But when I went to trial, the prosecutor said something totally opposite.

[583] They prosecute me on the theory that means guy was best friend.

[584] He allowed me to use the call.

[585] Did you know him?

[586] I didn't know him at all.

[587] never seen him a day in my life and the short answer to your question Joe about what they had connecting him to the car a driver's license you would think a driver's license a registration insurance someone that had seen them in the car the answer is they had absolutely nothing they had a word they had the word of a guy that had been accused and tied to these murders who was looking to put it on someone else how did he put it on you though he found out that there was a tip implicating him right right absolutely and so he tried to be a snitch to get the heat off of him and put it on you absolutely and they let that happen yep even though they knew right and it goes deeper than that so after I get convicted I'm still charged with the murder of the British tourists right I'm still actually charged with it even though I haven't been gone back and forth the court with it at this time after I get convicted and I know I was going to get a life sentence for the rape to kidnap and the three -owned robbers so the district attorney made an offer to my defense attorney and eventually brought to me on the day of my sentence and say that, okay, we can give him 25 years, 21 years for the murder, get him a manslaughter, right?

[588] And I don't know what type of stuff that happens out of my present between my attorney and district attorney, but I was scared of shit.

[589] I just received a life sentence.

[590] I know I was about to give sentence to life for the rape, and 25 or whatever, maybe 99 years for every own robbery.

[591] I don't know.

[592] I was scared that shit.

[593] So I took the 21 -year plea, but I never admitted to anything, right?

[594] And the part of evidence was that the guy who we're talking about that was initially trying to involve me, he was found guilty of the murder already.

[595] He was already found guilty of the murder.

[596] So they were trying you for a crime they already had convicted someone for?

[597] Absolutely.

[598] How is that possible?

[599] It happened.

[600] Because what they were trying to say is that if two people are in a car, and you're both out committing crimes, right?

[601] You're both responsible.

[602] You're both responsible.

[603] There's something called the felony murder rule.

[604] And the felony murder rule is that if you're in the commission of a crime and somebody dies, so if you and I went and robbed a bank and I go in and start, you know, shooting up with the tellers and kill two tellers, you're responsible for the murder also.

[605] So the theory of Robert's prosecution was that they were friends, they were on this crime spree together and that even though he was convicted of the murder um you know he was still responsible and guilty of murder it's no different than the james daily case which i've talked about before they convicted one guy jack percy and then they tried my client after that one guy got sentenced to life one guy got sentenced to death it's crazy they don't have to have any evidence whatsoever that you even friends with that guy right right and had his word right isn't his word enough and and the the piece of evidence another article evidence that were held is a report that uh that when he made a statement like the money on my trial as i said that i didn't have anything to do with the murder he never knew me and different things of that nature uh and they withheld that and it and it would held that and that was only important to change the outcome of my my trial because They took me the trial on the theory that we were friends and that I knew him and that I had a connection to him through the car.

[606] But had I would have had that piece of information that interject in my trial, I wouldn't have probably got found guilty to that extent.

[607] And they also would have various different statements and evidence as relates to the witnesses that was very inconsistent and that was very favorable to me. and that could have actually putting it back to the guy who was actually convicted of the murder and attached to all those other spree of crimes.

[608] Yeah, so it just was a lot of stuff, man, that they would have held that almost made it impossible for me to unravel and to obtain my freedom.

[609] And, you know, I'd like to say that that's uncommon, too, but it's not.

[610] So, in other words, when prosecutors are working on one theory, full steam ahead, right?

[611] And they then are met with, you might be wrong, we might have been wrong all along.

[612] The instinct, 99 times out of 100, is to plow ahead and rationalize why the true perpetrator in Roberts case, why did he all of a sudden say Robert had nothing to do with it, oh, well, maybe he is making this up because he feels guilty that he implicated his friend, who really wasn't his friend.

[613] In Clementiagiri's case, which we've talked about and your listeners know about, the true killer confessed.

[614] She confessed over and over again to friends, to neighbors, drunk, not drunk, to police.

[615] In denying him post -conviction relief, now this is a judge.

[616] judge.

[617] The judge chalked it up as survivors guilt.

[618] So in other words, whether it's a prosecutor's judges, they'll make an excuse to protect the prosecution because it's all about winning or losing.

[619] Let's talk about that.

[620] What is that?

[621] Is that human nature?

[622] Is it like, do people just want to confirm their initial suspicions and they rationalize all sorts of reasons why what they initially thought was right and this new evidence that shows that it's not right is wrong?

[623] Like, What is it?

[624] They don't just don't want to be, they don't want to lose?

[625] I think it's a fundamental flaw that we have as human beings that I share.

[626] As a Taurus, I especially share it.

[627] How dare you bring up astrology?

[628] But I, I'm stubborn, but I think as I see this time and time again in watching juries deliberate because I do mock trials and focus groups or speaking to people post -verting.

[629] but you can apply it to politics.

[630] To anything.

[631] To anything.

[632] I think one fundamental flaw we have as mammals is our inability to be flexible in our reasoning.

[633] And I think that once we make a decision about something, it's very, very difficult to get people to reconsider.

[634] I see that and really intelligent people too, and it makes me sad.

[635] It's maddening.

[636] It's maddening.

[637] It drives me crazy because it's like you aren't, the part of the process, I think with police with prosecutors with the whole legal system is that it becomes a game and I don't mean a game like it's a joke I mean a game like you're trying to win yes and whenever someone is involved in something where they're trying to win they do whatever the fuck they can people cheat they move golf balls right they do whatever the fuck they can don't look at Jamie whenever I hear people moving those fucking things whenever I hear they do they choose right here golf balls Well, people cheat, man. They find ways to pretend that they didn't do something when they did it.

[638] They find ways to justify the things that they did do.

[639] They find ways to pass the buck and put it on.

[640] If they can score that W, right?

[641] And you see cops do it.

[642] They plant evidence on someone they think was probably guilty, but they don't have enough evidence on them.

[643] They find rationalizations.

[644] And it's because there's a game.

[645] going on.

[646] It's a win or lose.

[647] And it becomes a real problem.

[648] And not only that, with a lot of cops, there's quotas.

[649] Like, you literally have to arrest a certain amount of people.

[650] Right.

[651] Which is insanity.

[652] Like, what the fuck do they do if no one commits a crime?

[653] What do they do if no one speeds?

[654] If you have a quota where you have to arrest 100 people for speeding, what the fuck do you do?

[655] If everybody makes an agreement, we all get on Facebook and we say, hey, let everybody drive the fucking speed limit for the next 60 days.

[656] And let's crush the legal system because these cops have to they have to make a certain amount of pullovers they have to pull a certain amount of people over and write a certain amount of tickets they have quotas if you don't meet those quotas they get in trouble so what the fuck kind of game is that right I would say a lot a lot of that a lot of just like we have structural racism right and what when I say structural racism meaning like institutional things that set up through regulation rules and policies.

[657] Like redlining.

[658] Right.

[659] And you just have like flawlessness in a variety of different systems.

[660] They got people that work for company.

[661] They got a lot of flawedness.

[662] And they don't really understand that you're employed in a system that treat people unfair, cause people home, and you can't even see it.

[663] And some people can be a part of a system, a part of a program, or a part of an organization that have that win mentality, right, that win -win -win -man by -all -cause mentality, and they lose their empathy for people.

[664] Right.

[665] And when people lose their empathy, when we define those things, and a lot of people don't like the hear this type of shit.

[666] but when you lose your impetus for people, you become technical a sociopath.

[667] That's a real problem with corporations.

[668] That's like a thing that they say about corporations, that corporations, technically, if you look at the actions, behavior, corporations, particularly ones that cause harm to the environment or to people or sell products they know are dangerous and harmful and hide the evidence, that they're acting like sociopaths.

[669] And there's a term called a diffusion of responsibility.

[670] and diffusion of responsibility happens if you have like a large group of people like here's the the term applies to if you're standing around there's a hundred people in this group and you watch some guy beating the shit out of somebody you don't step in because you feel like it's not my fault I'm not responsible there's so many people here but if it's just you and one guy beating the shit out of someone then you feel responsible because no one else is there to help but the large number of people you would think would stop someone from doing something like a corporation.

[671] Like there's so many people, how could this corporation, how could they act in such an unethical way that they know is harmful to a community, polluting rivers or harmful to the people that they're selling these products to?

[672] There's so many people, surely someone's going to tell.

[673] But it's actually easier for them to get away with it, which is how pharmaceutical companies operate.

[674] It's easier for them to get away with it if it's an enormous amount of people because there is a diffusion of responsibility and there's an overall commitment to keep the profits going, for the greater good of the corporation.

[675] And there's no accountability.

[676] No accountability.

[677] We've stumbled on something very magical here in this moment.

[678] I'll tell you why.

[679] It's no different with a corporation than it is with prosecutors and detectives.

[680] And I'm going to tell you why.

[681] My theory, at least.

[682] My humble perspective on this is that when you're a prosecutor or a corporation, a case or a person, whether they're taking a drug or buying your product, is just a number on a sheet and a name on a sheet in a spreadsheet or in a program and what they lack and when talking about lack of empathy is that they lack the ability partly because of how they're positioned to be positioned practically in other words to be able to sit down with the person accused and hear from them they're in a position where they're told they have to win or in a corporations, in the case of a corporation, make money and increase profitability, but I think it's the same flavor, which is that the lack of human interaction and being able to understand with prosecutors, the human toll that is left in the wake of these prosecutions, I cannot tell you, Joe, how many former state prosecutors, federal prosecutors, federal judges who are now criminal defense attorneys have moments where they break down emotionally and go through years of regret about how callous they were and how much they lack sensitivity and some of them and realize sort of I don't know if it's so much the error of their ways but you know I know and he doesn't fall into any of those categories I know a form of federal judge, I don't even want to name him, who is doing, who is a former federal judge, who was a former prosecutor.

[683] I've become very, very close with him in New York.

[684] And he is doing unbelievable things now through a project where he is trying to get clemency for people that were disproportionately sentenced.

[685] And he is moving mountains to do it.

[686] And I think some of it is because he feels a sense of obligation.

[687] Because in some instances, he was forced to sentence people because of sentencing guidelines disproportionately.

[688] I think some of it is a change in perspective.

[689] And if we could figure out a way, like I have a theory that it's lack of training.

[690] It's the lack of, you know, a system whereby prosecutors can really sit down with a criminal defendant, the accused, and their attorneys and get to know them and understand how damaging this all is.

[691] Because just getting accused of a crime, even if you get acquitted, it's life ruining.

[692] Now, I've seen it happen in white collar crimes, certainly in crimes where you're, you know, accused of some violent offense.

[693] So I think we've, you've put your finger on something remarkably relevant.

[694] And if, if we could somehow get across to people in law enforcement, prosecutors, I have someone that's an expert in a civil rights case right now.

[695] who was a former warden at a prison in Florida and at a place where they used to execute people.

[696] And he's come to the other side and cannot believe that he was ever, you know, in a position where he was taking lives and realizes how many mistakes are made.

[697] So oftentimes it takes them sort of coming to the other side, having interaction with someone like Robert and seeing the empathy because what he's been able to accomplish in the five short years since he's been out, and reforming the system is nothing short of remarkable.

[698] To me, it's both a happy ending and it's, you know, terribly depressing because look what they wasted on taking him through this.

[699] And we were talking about on the way over here whether or not he ever would have become the force that he's become in criminal justice reform if this all didn't happen to him.

[700] So maybe that's the silver lining.

[701] easy for me to say because I wasn't the one you know toiling in a terrible penitentiary for 23 plus year it's a horrible thing that people get a thought in their head and then try to confirm it right like this guy's guilty and then you do your best to try to confirm it instead of looking at it objectively and trying to figure out if you're right or wrong right well that's called confirmation bias it's a very real thing it's a very real thing and that these prosecutors they're not held accountable for bad mistakes.

[702] That's what's crazy.

[703] I can tell you another.

[704] Not just mistakes, but exonerate, I mean, holding back evidence that would exonerate someone.

[705] Right.

[706] I can tell you another ticker in this thing, another thing that they kind of would have.

[707] And this was very important.

[708] The detective that, the detective, detective steward, and I can say that's a, he an honorable person.

[709] and I have a lot of respect for him because what what ended up happening is Detective Stewart was the detective as on the he was the head detective on the homicide and his job when he did his his investigation was for the murder and he determined from his own investigation and the investigation of teams that he worked it with that the spree of crimes as far as as well as the homicides were all tied into one person who committed the crime.

[710] And that was the person who was convicted of the murder.

[711] So in other words, he did that and he told the prosecutor that he had the wrong man. There was the first time he ever did it in over 20 -something years of him being a police.

[712] He told the prosecutor that, because he was the one that made the arrest on me. And he felt so bad when the incident.

[713] the project of New Orleans reached out to him and say, hey, do you remember the Robb of Jones case?

[714] He said, yes, I do remember the Robert Jones case.

[715] He was saying, hey, how are you doing?

[716] He's out, huh?

[717] He said, hell, no, he's not out.

[718] He's in prison.

[719] Well, how he was in prison?

[720] I told a discreturn that we had the wrong guy.

[721] And his mind was blown.

[722] When I met him at court, that I going through my hearing process, he brought his wife.

[723] He met me in court because he went from New Orleans, detective in New Orleans.

[724] to working for the FBI to work in in various high -level places.

[725] And this man was blown away.

[726] He was like, I thought that cleared that guy up at case for this guy years ago.

[727] He felt so bad and he felt so relieved when I got out of prison.

[728] It was crazy.

[729] For the prosecutor to have all this kind of information in their pocket, and it would hold that information.

[730] Now, knowing what we know now, now that you are exonerated, that you are out, what are the repercussions?

[731] Did they have to compensate you?

[732] Does anything happen to them?

[733] The people that withheld that evidence, do they continue to work?

[734] Are they punished?

[735] That's a timely question, huh?

[736] What's going on?

[737] I think you can like ask that.

[738] Well, no, you should answer it.

[739] I mean, Robert just agreed.

[740] He filed a federal civil rights claim, which is for monetary damages.

[741] In term, let me answer the first part of it first.

[742] The people that did this to Robert were not held accountable.

[743] Criminally, they were not held accountable in any way, and that's a huge problem.

[744] Robert just, it made headlines in our world quite a bit.

[745] He was compensated.

[746] It wasn't nearly enough.

[747] In fact, it was an amount that I find tragic relative to his experience, but it took a lot of, it took a change in leadership in New Orleans.

[748] The new district attorney there is a gentleman by the name of Jason Williams, who's a remarkable guy, former defense lawyer, who just became district attorney and knew that Robert needed to be compensated.

[749] But he wasn't compensated nearly enough.

[750] if he did 24 years and how do you put a number on that on 24 years of lost life Robert's 48 today right he spent half his life in prison for a crime he didn't commit you know and he got I mean it was public right the amount yeah two million dollars what now the I know intimately well you know what Robert has been through I don't I can't empathize I can sympathize I can't empathize because I didn't go through it but I've seen how he's struggled financially since he's been out and how do you pick up the pieces of a lost life um you know I once heard a civil rights attorney asked for 36 million dollars in a in a case where two guys were both spent 18 years in prison for crimes they didn't commit and he said it and it brought me to tears I was his co -counsel in the case but I'll give him the credit because because it was a remarkable line.

[751] He said $36 million, a lot of money, ladies and gentlemen.

[752] That's not nearly enough.

[753] So he was compensated, but is it enough?

[754] I don't know.

[755] Unless you sit in a prison cell and know what it's like for a day, a week, a month, and your lifetime starts passing by, it's hard to put a dollar value on it.

[756] Well, here's a good way to judge it.

[757] Ask any of those people that wrongfully put him in prison if they'd be willing to go to prison for 24 years for $2 million.

[758] I guarantee you none of them would say yes.

[759] It's not nearly enough.

[760] It's not nearly enough.

[761] It's a lot of money for a regular person to consider.

[762] Like, oh, my God, $2 million.

[763] It's not enough for 24 years in prison for a crime you didn't commit.

[764] And, you know, a lot of your listeners have reached out to me asking, what can I do?

[765] There's a lot of states in this country right now, and we can provide you with the information to put in the notes of the episode that have limits or no compensation for people that were wrongfully incarcerated.

[766] That's crazy.

[767] And that's a big reform effort that not only the Innocence Project has undertaken, but people all over the country in criminal justice reform organizations that there should be minimum amount set.

[768] And they jump through trap doors all the time.

[769] Watch what happens in Florida.

[770] In Clementi Aguirre's case, the state of Florida owes him a lot of money for his wrongful incarceration.

[771] And there is a statute in the state of Florida to show you how fraught this is.

[772] And so he applied for the compensation after his exoneration.

[773] And what the state of Florida did was they said, you know what?

[774] the statute of limitations has passed because when we overturned the verdict when the state overturned the verdict in 2017 whatever it was he went from being incarcerated to being in custody and what the statute says is that you have to file within whatever the limit the whatever the time frame was two years from being from from being released from incarceration so the state's argument was that well when the Supreme Court threw out his conviction, the same day, the same day that the Supreme Court unanimously reversed his conviction, the state announced we are retrying him.

[775] Nobody came to Clementi Aguirre cell and said, by the way, you're no longer incarcerated.

[776] You're just in custody now, just so you know, all right?

[777] So what they would have you think is that, or have the court think, is that at that moment, when his conviction is thrown out and they say, we're going to.

[778] to try you again and try to put you to death, that you should have filed a wrongful compensation claim when you're trying to save your own life and get out of this mess yet again.

[779] So they jumped through this trapdoor.

[780] And the judge, who was a magnificent man, his name is Judge John Galuzzo, who I credit with saving Clemente's life because in his retrial, he let the jury selection process play out like it should.

[781] And he at one point said to the prosecutors, you know, what you'd think as the truth may not be the truth after all.

[782] And he let me put the real killer on the stand because I was afraid she was going to leave town as a material witness to preserve her testimony.

[783] And she all but confessed on the stand.

[784] And the state dropped the case.

[785] He wrote an opinion denying Clemente post -conviction relief and apologized essentially in the conviction.

[786] And he said that basically the Florida legislator wrote this statute in a way that ties my hands because he wasn't incarcerated anymore he was in custody awaiting trial so even when you get these laws on the books it's like you know your mind starts to spin like where does the fuckery end so that's why you know you know the way that robert has not only when he should tell the story of how he finally got out and and but he you know can you tell me what's happening with clementi though before we do that yeah so clementi right now is I'm in the process of representing him in his federal civil rights case.

[787] I can't talk too much about it because there's a law or there's a rule about not speaking out.

[788] But we are holding the people accountable civilly.

[789] I was able to, I've taken some of the depositions so far.

[790] And we're, you know, excited to be able to get him some measure of compensation.

[791] But he is, you know, he's in a tough place.

[792] He's here.

[793] He can't work.

[794] He's in immigration limbo.

[795] And he is doing the best he can, you know, to survive.

[796] And hopefully the civil rights case works out.

[797] I have a great team of people working, you know.

[798] How long something like that usually take?

[799] Yeah.

[800] And I mean, the wheels adjusts as grind slow in getting both exonerated and compensated.

[801] I mean, the case has been going on for a couple years or a year and a half.

[802] It'll probably go on for a couple of more.

[803] And then, you know, there's more.

[804] hoops to jump through to finally get them to write the check they can appeal and sometimes it can drag on for many many years.

[805] Absolutely.

[806] Robert, what are you doing with your time these days?

[807] That's a good question.

[808] Well, I'm doing a lot.

[809] Right now, right now I'm coming in the director of community outreach and lead organizing and client advocate for all these public defenders' office.

[810] And that's public defenders, as you know, is attorneys who represent people who can't afford attorney, generally poor people.

[811] I work in that office, and so I kind of like work in the same criminal justice system on the same court system that actually sit me to prison.

[812] Wow.

[813] You know, it was more in terms of, like, when I got the job and I sort of worked my way into a position, because some of the things I used to tell guys, like, when I was in prison, anticipating getting out, when I started seeing things was going to work, I was like, okay, increasing my hope I was going to get out.

[814] I used to tell guys in prison, because I was an emma counselor when I was in prison, right?

[815] I used to tell a guy, I said, one day, you're going to, you're going to, see me come back inside the prison and suit and tie.

[816] I'm not going to be a prisoner.

[817] So I had that experience like several times.

[818] I have more than like 50 -something clients in Angola while I was housed.

[819] So I actually walked back into the same prison that I was actually housed with a suit and tie.

[820] It was a great feeling.

[821] So and I take that I share that same level of inspiration and gratitude when I go back in the same courtrooms that I was actually prosecuted in.

[822] This is a court building and able to establish a working relationship, a respectful relationship with a lot of the judges.

[823] And now that we have a new district attorney and they're district attorney so we have a beautiful working relationship and understanding both aspects of the criminal justice system from a, you know, from the prosecutor perspective, from a defense perspective, which all surround fairness to me, right, and justice.

[824] So I see it.

[825] So I do that.

[826] I run a nonprofit organization that meant to the youth.

[827] So I like to help them make a transition from childhood to adulthood, which is a, it's, It's a huge thing for a lot of you.

[828] I'm called Freedom Foundations, and I'll give you information where people can actually go and check it out.

[829] Me and another guy who was formerly incarcerated, who also is a zanerie.

[830] I do some public speaking in different places and help change different laws, and because of the position I am, I have a lot of influence in the community.

[831] amongst a lot of our state representatives, city councilmen.

[832] And I sit on a lot of boards and committees for the city of New Orleans.

[833] So I have a lot of influence and a lot of respect in the city of New Orleans, not just because of my experience, because of my skill set, of bringing everybody on one accord, not being afraid to speak truth to power, and which a lot of people don't like me for it, but they respect me for it as well.

[834] And, yeah, so that's what I'm doing, you know.

[835] And we can get off until later, but it's another book that I'm writing and it's going to tie everything in it, you know.

[836] And because of your platform and what you're doing, to uplift the voice of people who have been in these type of situation and also to affect change.

[837] And that's one of the reason why I respect your podcast and what you do and people that's in your position.

[838] People like, because I can go on and on about this guy, Joss and Jason, how they use their position to help people.

[839] And I'm going to be really asking for your help to push this book that I'm about to do because I want to be on the platform, right?

[840] create my own platform of fairness and using the influence I have to expand these type of things and to change the concept, you know, change the mindset of a lot of people, man, because they need more people like yourself, you know, using their platforms to change things, man, to break this system that we have that's destroying people.

[841] I think there's a problem in that a lot of people have no idea how the system works until they're getting trapped by it.

[842] Absolutely.

[843] So there's a lot of people that until they hear a story like yours or some of the other stories that Josh and Jason have brought to us and explained until you see the horrific details of it, there's a lot of people that just don't know how these things work and they assume like you assumed when you got arrested that innocent people don't go to jail for crimes that didn't commit.

[844] And then having a person like yourself who can explain what happened to you and all the horrific details, when we have a few of these conversations, then people realize like, oh, this system is fucked up.

[845] And then when Josh can explain just this human nature that's involved in this confirmation bias and then trying to confirm your initial suspicions and ignore all evidence to the contrary and all that there's some sort of a weird flaw in human nature, we'll get these conversations going and people can sort of have a different perspective.

[846] So when they hear about someone getting convicted or they hear about someone getting arrested instead of just immediately assuming that they're guilty instead it's going to bring up a conversation like this is a flawed system a very flawed system in so many different ways and all of that if i if i may interject uh a lot of a lot of people look at uh the individual that that have been impact like myself right uh by the system but wrong for convictions of putting people through the system is, it's beyond me. This stuff impact the lives of family members, your children, your mother.

[847] It changes a lot of things.

[848] It's a lot of things that I experienced inside a prison of losing family members, losing relationships, losing connections with family members, and have to be released out of prison to rebuild those relationships, right?

[849] To rebuild those relationships, some relationships I had to cut off.

[850] some relationship that just got lost and don't know how and tried to mend a lot of those things.

[851] But, and in my state, the state of Louisiana, as he said, yes, I have been, you know what I mean, the years it took for me to actually get to this burden of being compensated to extent, I had to fight for that, right?

[852] In my state, the state of Louisiana, they have a compensation law.

[853] it was $25 ,000 for a cap of 10 years so no matter how many years you stayed in prison there was $25 ,000 per year that you stayed That's crazy Yes That is fucking crazy Now they increases the 40 ,000 Right Whatever Still crazy What a 10th A 10 year cap Give someone a year in jail Tell them like For every year in jail You get to keep $40 ,000 Who the fuck is going to say yes to that Right Right.

[854] So, and we have been, and that's a part of my refund working, working with the Insta Project New Orleans and a variety of other organizations and working with state legislative to keep on fighting for that change, right?

[855] That's some of the things that I also participate in.

[856] But the thing is, even in that conversation, you still got to fight for that.

[857] It's not automatically given to them.

[858] And I like for the dispel the myth that when a lot of guys get out of prison, and get a zanerated that a big fact check is waiting on them and they're going to ride off until the sunset.

[859] We need to dispel that.

[860] People need to get that out of their mind.

[861] That don't happen because when I came home, I didn't have Jack nothing, right?

[862] Outside of the innocent project of New Orleans and the Innocent Project in New York helping me financially.

[863] And this guy, and Jason Flum, like, you know, and man, if I wouldn't have had that, I don't know what type of situations that I will be in right now, you know, because I eventually got a job.

[864] It wasn't paying much of nothing, but it was a job, right?

[865] I worked there, and I got good at what I do.

[866] I work at a meal shop.

[867] I respect that the owner so much for giving me an opportunity because I learned a lot there.

[868] And I was able to build myself into the capacity of where I'm working now.

[869] But financially, morally, to surround myself with guys like Josh and Jason Flum is huge.

[870] Because, you know, these guys have platform.

[871] They're famous, right?

[872] You don't like to call it so there.

[873] I mean, you know a lot of people.

[874] You're in position.

[875] and I mean to be real friends with these guys and allow me the opportunity and don't look at you like you know just because they may be at a certain level and that's why I respect about them because they're going to see you equal.

[876] You know what I mean?

[877] And I would not only assume but just maybe done my own research on you, I will presume you are the same way.

[878] You know, to have that type of humility for for people that maybe have been in and bad circumstance a situation that you may have been in but to still be able to look a person that I and extend the opportunity for that person is huge to me that's that's real humanity you know what I mean because it's like he don't have to do what he have to do Jason Fleming to do do what they'll do I mean you don't have to do what you have to do I mean you don't have to do what you to do you don't have to raise your voice about certain things but to do that it's huge to me you know what i mean that's that's that's really huge and that's real that's human kind because most people we all are human but some people don't act like human people they think about their own problems you know and everybody's got their own problems it's easy to ignore other people's problems absolutely here's the here's the point you know when we and and robert and i have the opportunity to speak to lawmakers that have different political views.

[879] This type of conversation is extraordinarily rare.

[880] I spoke to the governor of Florida about the James Daly case.

[881] He literally has a snapshot view of it, gave me less than 35 seconds after having me wait for several hours to meet with him.

[882] And there's a clemency mechanism in the state of Florida.

[883] All that means is that you listen.

[884] You just listen.

[885] You can deny it.

[886] You can say, sorry, not granting you it.

[887] But what point is there in having it if you're not going to listen?

[888] And the problem is that, you know, like Julius Jones is about to be executed in Oklahoma.

[889] Richard Glossop is sitting on Oklahoma's death row, stone cold innocent and you know these it becomes a political thing with protecting the the win you know we talked about this herd man this this tribal tribal mentality now you got me on herd immunity tribal mentality and it becomes you know rather than just sitting and having the conversation and listen and being able to break through and saying okay I've heard you now hear me hear what I have to say about the reasons why you might want to you know did you hesitate at all if you hesitated a little bit, are you sure you want to take a life?

[890] You know, and that, in the case of Robert and so many others, it took an army of people.

[891] It's really easy to throw someone in jail.

[892] It took a literal army of people fighting and clawing and kicking and scratching to get him out.

[893] And why I think he's such an extraordinary story is that, you know, to be able to get out and now basically create a position for himself at the public defender's office, it's a miracle to get out in the first place it's more of a miracle to find the I mean to find though the sort of emotional physical fortitude to want to stay in the system that imprisoned you a lot of people that get exonerated run and they have every reason to California Florida just get the fuck away get the fuck away they don't want to see their lawyers again the son of a postcard well Robert what you bring to this is you have a peace and composure about you that's very unusual you know because of the horrific horrific thing that you went through and to to have to educate yourself about law and to try to figure out your case while you're locked up in a jail dealing with all the other stresses of that environment you have a composure about you like you have a you have a character that's literally built under fire.

[894] I mean you you were forged under horrible conditions and because of that you are uniquely uniquely qualified to discuss this and to have these kind of conversations and to open people's eyes because of who you are and how you've gone through it and who you what kind of man you are now and the way you can describe it so calmly and serenely which is so it's very impressive most people who would have gone through what you've gone through would be a broken husk of a person after all those years but you're not but you're not and in the fact that you continue to help and work with the Innocence Project and try to help people and actually go do what you said go back to Angola with a suit on and help people right absolutely it's an amazing thing it's an amazing thing and you you've literally turned I mean there's no way to completely turn that negative into a positive but you've made the most out of it for sure right that's all like my model you know um in the sense of turning all my negatives everything that that that happened bad in my life i try to make it out of positive for for the most part uh from and working at the uh public defender's office i also uh was in charge along with two attorneys that i work with like currently right now we created like a rescindicentism program about a new law that changed and And currently we, I was a part of a team that maybe 60, 60 guys that got out of prison, help 60 guys that got out of prison.

[895] And it's not about, it's a joy to me in the sense of seeing those guys get out and be reunited with their family, guys who maybe would have thought they would never get out of prison to have that type of thing is, I mean, it's a joy, it's a thing.

[896] And because of my experience, and because of the education I have about the system, not just the criminal justice system, about the entire system, because that's what I studied, right?

[897] Me, understand, it's hard to stay inside.

[898] It's like, you know, it's like if you was a doctor that knew a cure, or something that'll bring someone relief from pain.

[899] And you see this person in pain, and you're just like, you know how to help them, but you don't do it.

[900] That's in the sense of that's what it is to me. You know, and me having educated myself and put myself in position, it's hard for me to stay inside.

[901] It's no way I can have a knowledge of these things and not help someone.

[902] I mean, I wouldn't be the person who I am.

[903] That speaks to your character.

[904] Absolutely.

[905] It's very inspiring.

[906] It's very inspiring, I'm sure, to other people that are listening to this, too.

[907] Right, absolutely.

[908] And it's sort of right.

[909] Bring me to the Pernive is one of the things that, outside the things that I do and the relationship I build inside the community.

[910] And like I say, I'm working towards this book I'm working towards, it's power of endurance.

[911] And you're writing it right now?

[912] It's almost complete, yes.

[913] When do you think it will be done?

[914] done uh maybe maybe maybe two more weeks i say have it all edited out do you have a publisher already um you can help me with it we'll do what we can we'll do what we can to get it out there for sure and we'll do what we can to promote it once it's actually for sale absolutely absolutely and it's done with the power of endurance and i and the book came about uh because i get this question all the time.

[915] Like, people always ask me, like, Robert, how the hell can you do it?

[916] How you can keep your composure, how you can do these things, how you can be, grew up in, in distressed neighborhoods and all your life, poor, come from Singapore household, uneducated, to all this.

[917] How you do these days is still not we're in a pandemic.

[918] You're not scared.

[919] You're not afraid.

[920] You know, like, man, how you keep a smile on your face?

[921] And I used to always joke, I say, one time, one day, I'm a put it in the book, I'm going to tell you how.

[922] And I created, like, well, it's four easy steps, and I actually tell them, like, through my own experience, and how I was able to maintain a build a tough mentality.

[923] And, I mean, Josh was talking about last night, and I think that what I want to do is sort of different from people that inspire people, like motivational speakers.

[924] Got a million to them, right?

[925] I'm not a motivational speaker.

[926] I'm a transformative speaker, right?

[927] It's like, because anybody or anything can basically inspire you.

[928] Like, I can inspire you right now.

[929] You can leave out of here.

[930] And soon you face adversity is like a deflated bloom.

[931] That inspiration leave.

[932] Right.

[933] But if you've got a tough mentality, I can maintain, I can teach you how to maintain your inspiration.

[934] right how when you face difficulties that you're able to overcome you can still keep your inspiration and keep on scribing well the difference is also you're coming from a place that you've actually had to overcome something absolutely horrific whereas there's a lot of people that are what you would call motivational speakers but if you try to find the actual adversity that they had to overcome like where what are they doing well they're taking advantage of a thing that people desire They desire external motivation.

[935] They desire people that have said, that say something to them that gets them fired up.

[936] And there's benefit in that.

[937] I'm not knocking it, but there's a big difference between that kind of motivation and the kind of motivation that someone like you could bring.

[938] Absolutely.

[939] Absolutely.

[940] Should we wrap this up?

[941] Sure.

[942] All right.

[943] Let us know when your book comes out.

[944] We'll definitely let the world know.

[945] And we'll try to get you in touch with publishers.

[946] And I'm sure Josh can help with that too.

[947] and anything else on your end?

[948] No, I just, I know that I do this as much as I can, but I want to thank you for giving us this platform.

[949] You know, I'm eternally grateful to you for your humility, your empathy, your compassion because if we don't get these stories told and make people realize that this is not a political thing, this is not anything but a human thing, and, you know, all it really, takes is being able to sit down and realize that you're dealing with a person of mind, body, and flesh, and that, you know, they're worthy of being listened to and certainly of redemption.

[950] And I think Robert's just a living, breathing example of the miracles that can happen when people come together to try to help.

[951] I think it's important to have as many of these people on as we can, whether it's as many cases that you could describe when you come on or have people like Robert come on and talk about this so people can get a more nuanced understanding of what's actually going on that these is these aren't this isn't some fucking thing that you know may or may not exist this is a real human being they're right in front of you right now and they're telling you their story and it's real right and there's DNA evidence and there's evidence that the prosecutors withheld evidence and there's evidence that you were innocent the entire time that they knew it.

[952] This is important.

[953] Yeah, I'll say this in closing.

[954] I can't, that's why we're so grateful that we're like, you know, we can't express it enough because we have seen the difference that it's already making.

[955] Thousands of emails, Instagram messages, of people that are writing to me and Jason, you know, you've changed my path in life.

[956] I want to now become a criminal defense attorney.

[957] want to become a legislator and enact new laws, you know, the amazing reach of this podcast has been transformative.

[958] Talk about transformative speakers.

[959] It's been transformative in our approach to this.

[960] And if we didn't have this platform through you, it wouldn't be possible.

[961] So you have my eternal thanks.

[962] Well, you have my eternal thanks for your hard work.

[963] And what you've done is exceptional and extraordinary and selfless and humbling.

[964] And I think, you know, as a friend, I'm honored to be your friend.

[965] Well, I feel the same way.

[966] I think what you do is amazing.

[967] And thank you, Robert, for coming on here and telling your story.

[968] And I think these stories make a difference.

[969] I think, you know, having people on here to discuss these things, I think it can make a difference.

[970] Thank you, brother.

[971] Thank you.

[972] Thank you, thank you all.

[973] Thank you.

[974] Thank you for giving you the opportunity for to share my story.

[975] And hopefully to build from it, you know.

[976] Yes.

[977] And continue on to reach out to folks.

[978] And allow people to have that conversation.

[979] And how are them to see different perspectives.

[980] Sometimes that we can grow up with if it's an all theology or perception that's passed down from our family and for friends and just our own experiences.

[981] And to keep our mind closed, right, to the real perspectives of life.

[982] So I just thank you for giving us this opportunity.

[983] And I think that it's going to change some people lives.

[984] It's going to inspire some folks.

[985] Start looking at things differently, you know.

[986] I think so.

[987] Thank you.

[988] All right.

[989] Thank you.

[990] Thank you, everybody.

[991] Bye -bye.