Bruce Springsteen

[0] Hi, my name is Bruce Springsteen, and I feel ecstatic about being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[1] Fall is here, hear the yell, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends, because I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[2] Hey there, and welcome to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[3] I'm going to say this is a big one.

[4] Usually during this beginning chat, I don't often discuss the guest, but there's no way around it today.

[5] It's Bruce Springsteen.

[6] Yes.

[7] It's such a, just a joy to get to talk to him.

[8] I've had the pleasure of speaking to him a bunch of times over the years when he made appearances on my show and bumping into him in different situations.

[9] but man, I just, I love that he's on the podcast and that we're going to have this deep dive conversation.

[10] I'm really looking forward to it.

[11] Sona, I know that you are relatively new to America.

[12] Does Bruce Springsteen mean a lot to you?

[13] Not new to America.

[14] I was born here, but my parents were not.

[15] And I remember I was going through their records recently and they were all, you know, Armenian music and this and this.

[16] And one American album record that they had and it was born in the USA.

[17] And it was the first American record they bought when they came to the States.

[18] Didn't your father try to use that album cover as proof that he was born in the USA to get past the border guards?

[19] You think my dad.

[20] Didn't he hold it up and go, I am citizen, look, born in USA?

[21] And they're like, sir, that is an album by Bruce Springsteen.

[22] It's an iconic album.

[23] That was my dad.

[24] That was the impression you just did?

[25] Was that my dad?

[26] It's not really.

[27] I've just been informed by Springsteen's people that he's canceled the interview.

[28] Yeah, I don't blame him.

[29] I don't blame him.

[30] I didn't appreciate that.

[31] You used to do an impression of my dad where you take a dinner napkin and put it under your nose and pretend it was his mustache.

[32] Prove I've done that.

[33] Prove it.

[34] I have a photo of you doing that.

[35] Damn it.

[36] Yes.

[37] Why do I always let you take photos of me when I'm doing inappropriate things?

[38] You posed for it.

[39] So anyway, one of my point is, and let's get back to the important thing, not that I would put, as you say, a dinner napkin under my nose rolled up in a specific way to make it look like an oversized mustache to look like your father's.

[40] Crazy mustache.

[41] Jealous.

[42] Great mustache.

[43] He has a good mustache.

[44] A man's mustache.

[45] A real man's mustache.

[46] I could not grow that mustache.

[47] You could not.

[48] No. I know.

[49] I grow a nice beard, but my mustache is lacking.

[50] Would your father agree to go to a hospital and do a stash transplant where they take some of his mustache hairs and implant?

[51] It's just so much work.

[52] I've done so much for you that I think your dad owes me a stash implant.

[53] Anyway, I think we've drifted.

[54] You would look like such a perv with a mustache.

[55] or a well -to -do pornographer.

[56] What I would like to say, Sona, to keep us back on track, this is a star of a caliber that even your parents know who he is.

[57] Yes.

[58] And knew who he was when they were in Armenia.

[59] No, they weren't in Armenia.

[60] They were in Turkey.

[61] They are Armenian, but they were in Turkey.

[62] People listening don't care.

[63] What are you talking about?

[64] Just are like, go with the flow.

[65] Don't be like, well, no, you see, they are Armenian, but they were living in Turkey.

[66] But then Greece for a while.

[67] And of course, Istanbul.

[68] Yeah, I've just been informed by Springsteen that he's filing a lawsuit.

[69] That's okay.

[70] I love that his people, I love that Springsteen's people are so professional that they're listening and giving us update on what Bruce is doing.

[71] And they're texting you, Matt?

[72] Bruce loves the, Bruce loves Turkey, both the country and the deli meat and he is very offended now, so he's launched a suit.

[73] Matt, I know that you like polka and stuff like that but bruce springsteen this is a big deal for you yeah never liked polka yeah he is a big deal i admit this is the boss up from day to day i know you is the boss but now the boss is here well i think of myself i know yeah i seem to be fair to our listeners i am the boss no you're girl boss you're a boss he no no no he is a boss of some east street banders i will The boss.

[74] You are a boss of some people.

[75] He is the boss of everything.

[76] But you know what?

[77] I actually don't think I'm the boss of you, Sona.

[78] And I'm not the boss of Gorley.

[79] In fact, I'm hard pressed to find anybody who works technically for me who thinks of me as a boss.

[80] Right?

[81] I don't have that boss thing where people are like, uh -oh, here comes the boss.

[82] Yeah, people aren't going like, here comes the boss.

[83] Because that's superseded by, uh -oh, here comes Conan, the man. You know, like we don't know what you're going to do.

[84] And we know we're in for something.

[85] harrowing.

[86] That's not true.

[87] I think I'm a swell fella.

[88] Any regular listener of this podcast knows me to be gentle as a lamb.

[89] You know when the devil wears Prada when she's walking in and everyone like changes their shoes and change their posture.

[90] I mean when Meryl Streep walks in.

[91] And everyone's getting really nervous.

[92] If I'm watching TV and I'm leaning back in my chair and you're walking in, I do not do anything different.

[93] Yeah.

[94] And I love you started that with when I'm at work and I'm watching TV and leaning back in my chair, meaning you're really not working.

[95] You happen to be at work, but you're binge watching something from Netflix, yes?

[96] Well, yes, that's what I mean, is I'm not terrified enough to be like, oh, I have to make sure he doesn't see me watching, you know, Rick and Morty.

[97] Not terrified enough or not terrified at all, and in fact, quite dismissive of my presence.

[98] That might be, that's accurate.

[99] Yes, there you go.

[100] Anyway, to keep things on track, I just absolutely delighted at Bruce Springsteen's on the podcast today.

[101] And I don't want us to waste time.

[102] I always say that.

[103] But then, of course, I do waste time, but we can't today because this is an opportunity that comes but once in a lifetime.

[104] Yes, that's true.

[105] You've always had a connection with him because of Max Weinberg as well.

[106] Max Weinberg, my drummer and band leader for 16 years in late.

[107] 17 years, I think, actually.

[108] And Bruce always so kind and always checking in with me and saying, I hope it's okay that I'm bringing Max back on a tour and just like a call he didn't have to make.

[109] But a lovely artist, great guy.

[110] So let's do it.

[111] I say we do it.

[112] Let's go.

[113] Let's do it.

[114] But first, a story that goes nowhere.

[115] My guest today, of course, a rock icon who has won 20, great.

[116] Grammy Awards and sold over 135 million albums worldwide, making him one of music's best -selling artists of all time.

[117] His 20th studio album, Letter to You, which I've listened to many times now, and it is beautiful.

[118] It is now out in the documentary film of the same name capturing the making of the album is available to stream on Apple TV Plus.

[119] To say, I'm thrilled, he's with us today, is a pathetically inadequate understatement.

[120] Ladies and gentlemen, Bruce Springsteen, Bruce, welcome.

[121] I am speaking sincerely, first and foremost being how generous you were with Max Weinberg and allowing us to have his services while he was employed by you.

[122] I've always appreciated that.

[123] Okay, Bruce, let's get something straight.

[124] I've tried to explain this to you before because you've been very kind to couch it this way.

[125] I borrowed your drummer, okay?

[126] I would not know who Max Weinberg was, had it not been for the fact that he was the great drummer for the greatest rock band in the world.

[127] And occasionally you'd call me up and you'd say, Conan, we're about to head out on the road.

[128] Might I, please, what are you talking about?

[129] He's yours.

[130] He's your guy.

[131] You lent him to me for 16 years.

[132] For 16 years, you let me have.

[133] That's incredible.

[134] The great Mighty Max Weinberg.

[135] That's mind -boggling.

[136] You know, my plan was is to start borrowing your guys one by one and moving them over the late -night show.

[137] And so, you know, get Steve, get Nils, slowly incorporate them until I had the entire E Street band and then tell you, Bruce, they're mine now.

[138] That was my plan.

[139] It didn't quite work out.

[140] Yeah, it was a long con. It was going to take me about eight years to one by one get every single.

[141] guy.

[142] Either way, for 16 years, it worked out well.

[143] It worked out better than well.

[144] And who knew?

[145] We also found his comedic streak.

[146] It took us a while.

[147] It didn't happen overnight.

[148] But we found out that when you cut to Max for no reason, when he's not paying attention during a sketch, people thought it was the funniest thing in the world.

[149] I'm just saying, you're not maybe using him to his full extent.

[150] I don't think we are.

[151] Max is funny.

[152] I will tell you this, Bruce, the two guys, in my opinion, work, really work the hardest in that band.

[153] I'm going to say it's you first and I'm going to say it's Max second in terms of caloric expenditure during a concert because you burn about, I'm going to say conservatively 8 ,000 calories.

[154] And that could be on an acoustic set where you're sitting on a stool and you were just singing old folk songs at a funeral you would burn 8 ,000 calories but Max would have to So I would see you perform with the East Street Band and get the chance to say hi afterwards and you were always so gracious.

[155] Max would be soaking his hands in ice because people don't realize how difficult it is to continue drumming at that caliber as you get older.

[156] Particularly 50 years in.

[157] I may have to just switch that.

[158] I would say that Max most likely burns a few more calories than I do.

[159] He has to move his hands, his arms, his legs, his feet all at once without ever stopping for three to four hours.

[160] I can step back, get a short breather as the guys take a solo or something.

[161] Not Max Wamburg.

[162] And then on the other side, I've noticed Steve Van Zant, sometimes he, I see him, he's making cords, but I think he can sometimes burn about two calories.

[163] Occasionally he has to lean his head into a microphone, but other than that, he'll take 15 -minute breaks to adjust headscarves, you know, and try on a caftan or something.

[164] I have to say, let me, I have so much to be grateful for, I pride myself on never getting jaded.

[165] One is, I'm talking to you, which I've had the opportunity to do several times in my career, and it is the, highest honor.

[166] And the other thing I'm very grateful for is I really do love this record letter to you.

[167] And I would say the word I would use when I heard it is urgency because I know you guys recorded it in five days.

[168] Your people were kind enough to let me get a sneak peek at the documentary film that goes with it.

[169] This is really a throwback to you guys saying we're going to get this done in a short period of time as possible because we're old and we make die soon.

[170] So we have got to hustle this baby into production right now.

[171] Did you ever think of calling the album, we don't have much time?

[172] Listen to this shit, we don't have much time left.

[173] It is, and I'll give you one of my, there's so many tracks I love on this record, but my ultimate test, and I didn't even realize it, is I've listened to this many times.

[174] And today, on my way to this interview, I'm on the 405 freeway, and I'm listening to Burning Train, and I look down, and I realize I'm going about 110 minutes a night.

[175] And that is my test.

[176] I didn't mean to go that fast, but Burning Train, and there's so many tracks like that, and there's so many different flavors and contours on this album, but Burn and Train is you and the East Street band, kick out the jams, full throttle, joyous, madness is fantastic.

[177] All I can say is mission accomplished.

[178] Yes.

[179] You're not looking at chart position.

[180] You're looking at speeding tickets.

[181] That's right.

[182] A hundred percent is just about right.

[183] I swear to God, when that song kicks in and the way it builds and it's so anthemic, and obviously you've done so much work like that, but you, man, that's your wheelhouse.

[184] I think you have about 15 wheelhouses, but that is one of them, which is pure octane.

[185] That's all it is.

[186] You know, I was thinking about, and this is a thought I've had about you over the years, you are a particular case, and I mean this in the best way, but I wonder, what fuels this man?

[187] I don't understand there is a nuclear rod located in the center of your chest that is singular to you.

[188] I have a theory.

[189] I don't know if it's too early in the day for therapy, but I have a theory.

[190] Let's hear it, my man. You want to hear it?

[191] Yeah, hell yeah.

[192] Illegal drugs.

[193] No. I just threw that out there.

[194] Actually, legal drugs, maybe.

[195] Legal drugs, okay.

[196] We're talking about Advil.

[197] No, here's my theory.

[198] My theory is that to be a truly great artist, you need some components.

[199] An anxiety, especially in your youth.

[200] Absolutely.

[201] An obsessive nature.

[202] Obsessive -compulsive, necessary.

[203] Obsessive -compulsive nature, yes.

[204] Plus, a complicated relationship with a parent.

[205] Unbelievable low self -esteem also helps.

[206] Well, okay, so I've got one, and you've got four.

[207] I've got the low self -esteem.

[208] No, but you, is there something to, and I think great celebrity autobiographies are extremely rare, and yours, I thought, was a beautiful piece of writing.

[209] and also I learned so much about your relationship with your father and contrasting that with your mother and your grandmother and thinking, and people probably don't want to hear this, but maybe that has to be part of the equation.

[210] Well, I believe that the most successful, obsessive artists, and I think the guys that we think of who have something very special eating at them, and that's what makes them interesting to us, There is an undescribable problem at their center that they're constantly sorting, trying to sort out.

[211] It's not completely sort outable, but you can find elements of clues that bring you closer to the source as life.

[212] And this is how people are using their craft.

[213] This is why you can't take your eyes off them or your ears.

[214] And those people have had someone in their life who has told, them they are the second coming of Christ and at the same time someone in their life who's told them they are absolutely worthless and they believe them both and so consequently you're in the process of trying to retrieve the unconditional love that you experienced by the parent who told you you were holier than thou, and trying to prove to your other parent how deeply wrong they were.

[215] So this, I believe, is a psychological makeup of most, of the most interesting artists, I would say, like a Sinatra, De Niro, Brando, Dylan, Hank Williams, all of those people, I believe, have some piece of this in their creative equation.

[216] So, yeah, I think it's essential myself.

[217] I think that kind of historical conflict in your family is very, very critical.

[218] Then add into it eight years of Catholic education, the furnace is starting to burn.

[219] There are many people that would think, oh, to watch Bruce and the East Street band record, or to watch Bruce work would be just to watch these guys having a ball.

[220] That is not true.

[221] You said it is both the most important thing in your life and it's only rock and roll.

[222] And you've got to inhabit both.

[223] What is essential as you become an adult is you have to refine the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in your mind at the same time without it driving you crazy.

[224] That is the mark of adulthood.

[225] so there's a lot of things in life you know it's like when I when we go out on stage and I we're out for murder you know we are out there to burn it down until you go home smiling and hurting you know but at the end of the day it's rock and roll music we're not curing cancer you know so and that's the best we can do you know and so we and so we do it you You know, but keeping those two ideas in your head simultaneously allows you to reach as far into the heavens as your spirit, soul, hopes, and fears will allow while at the same time staying sane and some relatively balanced here on Earth.

[226] It's a next to impossible combination.

[227] I've heard Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln was described that way, as they said, a mark of his intelligence was that he could hold two completely contrasting ideas in his head at the same time.

[228] Yeah.

[229] I think that added to his greatness.

[230] And I think that is, yeah, that's adulthood.

[231] I love my kids and occasionally they make me want to jump out of window.

[232] I'm able to contain both of those ideas.

[233] If you can acknowledge them, it will bring you some peace.

[234] It will quiet your mind, which is something that most artists don't possess, you know.

[235] You know, it's not the nature of artists to possess a quiet mind.

[236] But getting some small things like that straight, I found it did bring some peace into my daily life.

[237] Do you think you've mellowed at all, or do you think because you were probably, I guess you might say, yeah, I've mellowed with age and not just age, but the accomplishments that boggle the mind.

[238] But maybe at the same time, I don't believe that you've mellowed nearly as much as.

[239] other people would have mellowed that would have experienced your kind of success?

[240] Well, it sort of all depends how you're using the term.

[241] I think if you asked my wife, she would say that I have mellowed in some ways that were, I think the destructive parts of my character hold less sway over me than they did 25 years ago.

[242] So that's a good thing.

[243] My raw intensity at approaching my work and my job, I haven't mellowed at all.

[244] And that's the way I like to keep that, you know.

[245] Yes.

[246] And that's an area where, hey, not mellowing is a good thing.

[247] There's other areas, you know, it doesn't work the same way across the boards.

[248] There's other areas where, hey, you want a life, you better mellow out, my friend.

[249] You're not going to make it, yeah.

[250] No, you're not going to have it if you don't.

[251] But so the problem is when you see people make errors or ruin their lives is they take one thing like, you know, I've got to burn.

[252] And then they paint their entire life experience with it.

[253] And yeah, you will burn.

[254] You will burn, my friend.

[255] You will burn yourself right to the ground, you know?

[256] And you may have made some great music while you're doing it, but what's that mean to you?

[257] once you're six foot down you know it's just not going to mean a whole lot so you've got to be able to realize I am going to burn here my brightest here I'm going to do a different type of living in order to live my fullest and to be a solid citizen and partner and parent important to get those things straight there's the romance Some of us had in our 20s for the rock icons who died at 27.

[258] And as I've grown older, I've thought, well, that was just stupid.

[259] It would be just beautiful if Jimmy Hendricks had lived a full life.

[260] Oh, yeah.

[261] And just to name, I mean, you keep going on and on, and Janice Joplin.

[262] Sure.

[263] You know, what would these people have done?

[264] There's no romance at all to me about it anymore.

[265] It's just a waste.

[266] It's a huge waste.

[267] The nature of rock and roll, it's always contained a death cult.

[268] And that may be because of its genesis in youth culture.

[269] When you're young, death and life can feel smushed up against each other.

[270] You're young and you're taking some more physical risks.

[271] I mean, I remember taking some physical risks I took when I was young that I would not do now.

[272] You know, and I mean, there's a whole host of teenage songs about the car crash dying on the railroad tracks.

[273] She had my ring in her finger in her hand.

[274] man back, you know, I mean, there's just a host of, that sort of became a part of rock culture and was heavily romanticized.

[275] And of course, the listener can afford to be romantic about it while the actual, you know, hey, if it's your life, it's not much fun for you.

[276] You know, like, you know, making a mistake and choking on your own vomit.

[277] No, there's not that much romantic about that.

[278] You just talked me out of it, Bruce.

[279] It's my pleasure I wanted to get some street cred I've been thinking about it You know when you're talking about mellowing too I was talking to a doctor once And he said one of the things that helps men mellow over time Is their testosterone levels drop And I thought well then I think I'm good I think I'm safe I think I've been safe since about 1981 But that's something too I think there's something to guys that we just, there's a juice running through our bodies that is amazing in some ways but gives us stupid ideas.

[280] Like, I'll ride that motorcycle without a helmet because who cares?

[281] Nothing can happen to me. Yeah, well, you know, you still carry a little bit of that with you.

[282] It's like Patty said to me, hey, do you want to go skiing?

[283] I said, why?

[284] Why?

[285] Why would we ski?

[286] We're 70.

[287] I think I'd fall down and break my ass, break my leg.

[288] Yeah, yeah.

[289] Why would I go up the mountain just to come down again?

[290] Yeah, it just didn't make sense to me suddenly, you know.

[291] I want to ask you about the Castiles, because they're an important part of this album.

[292] You, looking back, especially the song Last Man Standing, when you were growing up in New Jersey, you belonged in Freehold to this group, the Castiles.

[293] Yes.

[294] And this was your band.

[295] and when you look at it, to be that young, this band lasted through the prime years of the 60s.

[296] Yeah, there was a long time for a bunch of teenagers to stay together.

[297] It's very rare.

[298] And it was quite a long time, and I learned an enormous amount of my craft while in that band and deep feelings for it and for that time of my life, you know.

[299] But it was rare to stay together that long.

[300] Were you guys, was it a cover band primarily?

[301] It was primarily a cover band, and we had a few originals.

[302] Do you remember what was your go -to song like this is the song we do that's maybe our best go -to cover song?

[303] Do you have a memory of what that might have been?

[304] To blow the roof off the house, we did a halacious version of Them's Van Morrison Mystic Eyes.

[305] Oh my God.

[306] That's fantastic.

[307] That's not a very well -known song, but I used to front and play the harmonica and move about like a madman.

[308] on mystic eyes.

[309] You credit, your time in the Castiles put you out in front of live audiences in union halls, in VFW, you know, you name it, potluck dinner halls.

[310] It puts you out there.

[311] Everything.

[312] You guys played everything, and you learned to play live, which is something maybe that isn't happening as much today for young artists.

[313] Well, you know, there are still people who play great, live shows.

[314] There's great live performers out there at every level in the clubs and theaters and stadiums and arenas, you know.

[315] But is it a vanishing skill?

[316] I don't think it will ever vanish, but it's certainly been, you know, it has a lot of competition from the internet and social media and a variety of other things.

[317] But at the end of the day, that act of getting people in a room and a band on stage, which is an act that will never be simulated, is a powerful, powerful experience.

[318] And to feel, we don't have him yet, we got to get them.

[319] Or they're starting to come around, let's really lay it on now.

[320] That's the kind of muscle that you learned when you were in high school with the castiles that I think you've just kept honing and honing and honing into that to the point where you were doing four, I think you set the record, I think four hours and six minutes for a concert when you think about the Beatles in their live performing days when they were huge rock men I think they would do 20 to 25 minute shows Yeah you know that wasn't so bad I was gonna say We screwed the whole thing up by playing too fucking long I know now I have to do it Well what happens now is that if you do three hours and 50 minutes And then leave people want their money back I got fucked Bruce just walked off after three hours and 50 minutes we got a babysitter for nine hours I bought my money back exactly very hard it's hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube no you can't I saw I saw you perform with the East Street band I don't remember exactly which year it was it might have been around 2005 I saw you guys perform as a great show and this is something that I've said to many, many people who've asked me what they think it takes.

[321] And I've cited you many times.

[322] I said, I saw Bruce Springsteen and he's got nothing left to prove, but he gave this amazing show.

[323] And at one point during the show, you did a song where you used, I'd never seen you do this before he used a falsetto.

[324] It was quite powerful and very good.

[325] And so afterwards, because of my Max connection, Max brought me back, and his hands, he went to sew his hands back on.

[326] They had fallen off.

[327] But you chat, with me in your dressing room for second and I said, I really love that falsetto and I'd just seen you completely blow the roof off the place for several hours and you said yeah, I'm really I'm working on that.

[328] I've been working on that for a bunch of years and I thought I would start trying it on this tour and I keep trying to work on it.

[329] I don't think I've quite got it right and I walked out of that room and I thought he's still trying to get to some place.

[330] If you're not trying to get to someplace then you're you're just a careerist, you know?

[331] And that's fine, but it just doesn't interest me that much, you know.

[332] Right.

[333] I want to be a frontiersman.

[334] You know, I want to be out on the edges of my own psychological, emotional, spiritual frontier.

[335] I want to be working there, and I want to work there until the day I die.

[336] To me, that's a fulfilled life.

[337] Pushing forward, always searching.

[338] always looking for that next thing that's going to add that small piece to the puzzle that's going to then allow you to go further than that.

[339] You know, because as we move forward, our life blossoms and the benefits of that search fall into the lapse of our loved ones and our people we work with and into our own lives, into our own lives.

[340] It's a rewarding process, you know.

[341] and one that I would wish on everyone.

[342] And I know people who don't do this at all.

[343] And I could name our most prominent exponent at the moment, but why belabor the topic?

[344] All right.

[345] Yeah.

[346] One of your Joe Biden attacks.

[347] We know, Bruce.

[348] We know that you're not a fan of democracy.

[349] Exactly.

[350] You got that word out a long time ago.

[351] I remember I played behind Roy Orbison in 1988.

[352] Roy was singing like his life depended on it.

[353] Yeah.

[354] He was singing like he'd never heard those songs ever before and that he was having all of these realizations for the very first time.

[355] Yeah.

[356] That's what I'm talking about.

[357] Even with material that he'd probably sung many, many times before, he was approaching it as if he was out.

[358] on the frontier of it, as if tonight if I sing these songs beautifully and well, I will learn something or gain something that I have not learned or gained from the previous nights when I've done this.

[359] That seemed to be, A, it was a way to avoid just nostalgia, which Roy did by being so purely present.

[360] It was just a good lesson.

[361] And I took a little lesson.

[362] And I took a it to heart.

[363] And I said, yeah, that's how I want to approach my work, you know.

[364] And it doesn't seem highfalutin to me. It seems, if anything, it seems grounded to me. You know, it seems like a very grounded approach to take to life on earth, you know, and how we may make the most out of it.

[365] I know you've talked about it.

[366] And it's one of the things I've wondered about, and my life because I'm a huge rock nerd is Chuck Berry and his, you know, one of the greatest poets of the 20th century and maybe one of the most influential musicians who kind of seem to have almost a contempt towards his own music, which I didn't understand.

[367] I know you played behind him when he used you as a pickup band, but the guy would barely tune up.

[368] A lot of people have that, that whatever you want to call, that characteristic.

[369] You can find the the certain inner nihilism that does drive us, you know.

[370] I mean, it's in everyone, and it's in the car with you.

[371] It's not good when you put that part of you behind the wheel.

[372] You know, it's always going to be in the car.

[373] Don't let it drive too much.

[374] You know, there may be a creative moment in a safe circumstance or something where you can let it loose and interesting questions arise.

[375] but I don't want that guy driving my car all the time.

[376] Right.

[377] But some people, you know, Chuck was funny, you know, hundreds of years from now, hundreds of years for now, when people want the purest distillation of rock music, they will play Chuck Berry music.

[378] You know, it's simply a fact.

[379] He may be the purest distillation of us all, you know.

[380] He's, it's magnificently blessed, blessed, transcendent.

[381] music of great American genius.

[382] And the fact that he personally did not value it that highly, that's his tragedy.

[383] Yeah, I know that you, obviously, in your early career, very influenced by Dylan, very influenced by Chuck Berry.

[384] One of my favorite songs of yours, you ever, of all of them, and I love so many of them, but open all night on Nebraska, is one of my absolute I put that song on all the time trying to play along with it I think it's got some of the best writing and imagery just having fried chicken popping our fingers on the Texaco Roadmap I think that is some of the best writing in rock and roll I think it's up there with Chuck Berry and I I just it's absolutely gorgeous evocative imagery and well the song is totally Chuck Berry inspired you know and uh because he was the master of everyday imagery you know nadine honey is that you you know every time i catch up with you uh you know you're in a turn the corner double back i saw her getting in a coffee colored Cadillac yeah yeah yeah man i love that song so much i painted my Cadillac coffee.

[385] I have a 1967 white leather interior coffee -colored catalog.

[386] Did you go and yell at the body shop, guys?

[387] Like Chuck said.

[388] Listen to the song, assholes.

[389] Like what Chuck said.

[390] Strictly because of Chuck Berry.

[391] So he's a patron saint regardless of how he felt about himself.

[392] Yeah.

[393] Chuck came up at a moment when rock music was considered worthless.

[394] It was considered at best a novelty, at worst, dangerous and dangerous trash to expose your children to, and no one believed it had any transcendent value whatsoever, or that the idea that it might address the spirit in some way.

[395] It was laughable.

[396] Now, I grew up at a time when the business went from the single to the album when art was suddenly considered to, when rock was suddenly considered to be this great art, right?

[397] And that did have all the, that did have the ability to, to contain all those qualities.

[398] And so that may have affected the perceptions we have you know, the moment that you, I mean, people ridiculed Elvis.

[399] It's amazing that these guys carried on and were simply so good at what they did because the encouragement was either, it was purely financial, you know, it's selling, okay, I'm going to keep going.

[400] Or people performed like we performed just because they had to, you know, because it was the talent they had, they were good at it, and it brought them rewards in the world.

[401] But those were very different generations, and I think people then, they made people approach their music with very different attitudes, perhaps, you know.

[402] though you know there's plenty of people who I think Elvis Elvis had regard for his music in his own way obviously certainly Roy and there's many many many others you know and uh buddy Holly I think had regard for his music of course of course but I think I think we talk about Chuck because Chuck being the greatest genius of rock and roll songwriting and seeming to be the most conflicted about its own worth is as I say it's a bit of I would have I would have wished him the peace that would have come with realizing just how beautifully he did his job you know how beautifully he did his job but you know but we live different lives you know like I say our minds are not quiet and we do not you know, we're all at the end of the day conflicted souls doing our best to get through the world.

[403] Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that in the 1950s rock was seen as something to do quickly and then get out of it with some money to move up to the next thing.

[404] For Elvis, that was movies.

[405] But everyone saw it as a fad.

[406] Get your money and get out as fast as you can.

[407] You, of course, coming along in the late 60s, rock and pop starts to become, legitimized in the 70s is this renaissance of beautiful, serious writing about rock music.

[408] Yeah, and you, in the late 60s, you had the birth of the rock critic.

[409] John Landau, you know, my manager was one of the pioneers of rock criticism, and they brought a whole different viewpoint towards what music, what popular music was capable of doing and what it was capable of addressing.

[410] I kind of, I always look at, that we were born right in the golden age, you know, right, sort of at a time when, you know, the 70s you had the birth of the album and then into the 80s where the business itself exploded and suddenly you could play to 20 ,000 people and the technology was there to allow you to do that.

[411] You know, the sound systems had gained, which really wasn't there in the 70s or the 60s.

[412] But in the 80s, technology allowed performers to reach a bigger audience live.

[413] And there was a golden age of really live playing that is still there, but we've passed out of quite a bit.

[414] So it's just interesting time.

[415] Now, of course, you know, the whole thing can lead to overdoing, overblown interpretations of what's essentially entertainment.

[416] You know, I always look at it like, yeah, I put my music out, and I want people to vacuum the floor to it.

[417] I want them to do their laundry to it.

[418] I want them to go out, chase their kids around the park to it.

[419] and dance to it and then you know I try to put something else in there so then there's a little more if you want to dig deeper you know that's that's sort of my approach but I was I think I was affected so so fully by popular music that I just said I want to do that and I want to do all of that what Benny King achieves in this magic moment to me transcends just a popular single that was 98 cents down at J .J. Newberry's that you brought home and slow dance to you.

[420] There was something more in it.

[421] I've always been interested in that something more.

[422] Well, it's what you, I think, limits, we think that they're our enemy, but they're our friend.

[423] And there's the limit of, I think, what you call it, the pop song or the rock song, Life in 180 seconds or less, is something that I've heard you say.

[424] Yeah.

[425] That this is, and the limits of getting your band together and saying, we're going to make this record in five days, we're going to limit ourselves.

[426] We are going to put restrictions on ourselves, which will make us, even at this stage of our career, push harder.

[427] Does that resonate with you?

[428] Give me that again, Conan.

[429] Okay, I think you were on the internet for that part.

[430] I don't know what you were looking at.

[431] I don't know what you were looking at.

[432] Are you buying stuff right now?

[433] Are you buying stuff online, are you?

[434] Bruce Springsteen is online shopping while I'm trying to fucking talk about the essence of rock and roll in a hundred and you said.

[435] You lost me in there.

[436] You lost me in there somewhere.

[437] Well, that's my fault, Dad.

[438] I'm bad at what I do.

[439] Hey, let me quickly ask you about get.

[440] guitars because one of the things I love that I saw you using this documentary is you go back and you play your old Sears Kent.

[441] I think it's like Sears Kent, which is a, it's a goofy guitar that has a speaker built into it.

[442] And I know they also make speakers.

[443] Oh, that's a silver tone.

[444] Oh, that's a silver tone.

[445] Okay, the Kent had the speaker built into the case, I think, right?

[446] The Silvertone had both a guitar with a speaker built into the guitar and a Dan Electric Silvertone also had a guitar with a speaker built into the case.

[447] That was a very, very popular item.

[448] And I still see guys play them to this day.

[449] You know, they're not great, but they're different.

[450] And they were relatively sturdy pieces.

[451] And they got you in the game for a relative small amount of money.

[452] Yeah.

[453] Well, you lost me. I wasn't paying attention.

[454] I'm sorry, if you can do it to me, I can do it to you.

[455] I'm watching a 1988 basketball game.

[456] You know, can I ask you a fan?

[457] You talk about you wrote this album on a guitar that a fan gave you.

[458] And let me say why that intrigues me. I would love to give you a guitar just as a token, but that's like bringing Coles to Newcastle.

[459] I cannot think of a guitar I could give you that would mean anything to you because you have apparently every guitar in the world and the means to get any guitar you want.

[460] What did this fan give you that just grabs your imagination?

[461] First of all, every guitar is individual.

[462] You know, there are no two guitars that I've ever played that are the same.

[463] And so I occasionally am gifted a guitar, and I'm always, I'm usually fascinated by it, you know, and fascinated by what it might do that another one might not do.

[464] This guitar was handed to me as I came out of my play on Broadway.

[465] The kid was just on the street holding a guitar.

[466] I thought he wanted me to sign it or something.

[467] And then he said, no, no, Bruce, Bruce, he was Italian.

[468] And he says, I want to give this to you.

[469] So I went over.

[470] I said, you know, are you sure?

[471] Yeah, yeah.

[472] We had it made just for you.

[473] Okay.

[474] So I took the guitar.

[475] It wasn't in a case or anything.

[476] I just took it in my hand and I jumped in the car with it.

[477] And I didn't look at it really very much until I got it home.

[478] But when I got at home, I realized this was a beautifully made guitar.

[479] There was all different types of wood.

[480] The wood was gorgeous.

[481] It played as good as any guitar that I owned and sounded as good as any guitar that I own.

[482] It's just one of the nicest guitars that I had.

[483] And I left it in my living room, just because I'd pick it up and play it.

[484] And when it came time, when I could feel the song starting to gestate a little bit, I picked it up, and over the next six or seven days, most of the songs, phone letter to you, came out of it, you know.

[485] So it was a really sort of lucky little talism.

[486] Do you know who this kid was?

[487] I believe his name is Corrado Gambi.

[488] Wow.

[489] We've got to make this guy famous.

[490] This guy made the guitar that stole Bruce Springsteen's art. Karato Gambi.

[491] I think that's his name.

[492] That's what somebody tracked down.

[493] All right.

[494] Carato, I also play.

[495] Carrotto, I play, and I could always use another guitar.

[496] I'm sure I'll see him again.

[497] Well, I have my last question for you, and this is a quick one.

[498] And it stumps me, but you talk.

[499] about great bands and people start naming them and many of the great rock bands are British when you say okay but you're limited to America I think East Street band and then I start to have a hard time and I don't know a East Street band aside do you have a band an American band in mind that just inspires you that you think is and I'm talking about a real band not an assembly of session guys just an American band you see what I'm saying there's like in Britain you've got, there's the Beatles, there's the stones, there's the, I mean, it just goes on and on, the who, there's Led Zeppelin, it's just, it doesn't stop.

[500] In America, it's very hard, the East Street band feels like an anomaly.

[501] Well, I don't think so.

[502] I think there's a lot of, I mean, if you go back into history, of course, you're going to have the beach boys and the birds.

[503] I mean, you know, that's, if we go back into history, there's a, there's a quiet but if you're asking like today Arcade Fire is a great band The Killers have one of the best live shows I've seen if you want to go have fun and live show the killers had a great live live live live live live live show So what's happening out there?

[504] It's out there Yeah yeah there's all kinds of excellent musicians, foo fighters play great live Pearl Jam There's lots of good American Young American bands out there today I will put East Street Band at the top, as I think you will.

[505] I'll go there.

[506] And I am going to wrap this up.

[507] I want to say one of the great honors to talk to you, and I will leave you with this.

[508] I have, I've got one show business photo that hangs in my house up in my room, in my study, and it's you and me playing together.

[509] You let me play with you on my show, I think, in maybe 2000.

[510] I was impressed, I have to say.

[511] You know, my happiest moment of my life was we were done, and I turned, and Niels looked at me, and he said, you were in the pocket the whole time.

[512] And I thought, and I repeated, it's pretty good.

[513] It's pretty good.

[514] And it's the happiest I've been in show business, and you've made me delightfully happy, and I think you've made people around the world probably three quarters of the world's population ecstatically happy.

[515] at one time or another, and I don't, I can't think of anyone else who can say that.

[516] I think it's, and I, it's a joy to get to talk to you.

[517] It really is.

[518] And give my best to the guys and to Patty and to everybody.

[519] And thank you for making a letter to you, because you didn't have to, you've got nothing to prove, and it's absolutely beautiful.

[520] It really is.

[521] Thank you, Colin.

[522] I appreciate, uh, I, I appreciate your support all these years.

[523] He's been a great guy, and, you know, I know we joke about it, but Max had a great run on your show, and it meant a lot to all of us, meant a lot to me, and, you know, we got a lot of love for you, so God bless me. Well, thank you.

[524] I think we, I think I made the difference for you in your career.

[525] Okay, Bruce, take care, and thank you so much.

[526] All right.

[527] All right, bye -bye.

[528] Bye -bye.

[529] We haven't done any voicemails in a while.

[530] Do you want to check in with the people, the listeners?

[531] I'll be honest, there's some fear involved when I listen.

[532] Every time.

[533] There always is.

[534] You know what?

[535] I'm in a bubble.

[536] I live like many celebrities in a bubble that nothing can penetrate where all I hear is you're the best man. You're the best.

[537] Okay.

[538] Which, by the way, couldn't be further from the truth.

[539] I've created a bubble where I'm filled with people who say you suck.

[540] I hate you.

[541] I don't know why I made that bubble.

[542] I don't know either.

[543] You had a choice and you chose that.

[544] I know.

[545] I chose very, I chose the wrong way to go.

[546] But anyway, it's what I chose and it sort of suits me. Yes, I'm in a bubble where I get nothing but negative criticism.

[547] So maybe we'll hear something nice.

[548] I don't know.

[549] I think we will.

[550] I collected these a while ago, so it's going to be just as much a surprise to me. This will be exciting.

[551] Do you edit out the ones that are like, I'll kill you, man. I hate you.

[552] I hate you.

[553] I hate you.

[554] I'll kill you.

[555] You added those out?

[556] I do.

[557] Well, so you just admitted they exist.

[558] Matt.

[559] Oh, great job, Matt.

[560] Hey, this is the bubble you created, Conan.

[561] Oh, my God.

[562] Well, I hope you're forwarding them on to the correct, you know, authorities.

[563] There we go.

[564] Okay, I'm going to play one for you.

[565] I'm just going to choose these randomly.

[566] This will be exciting.

[567] Hi, Conan.

[568] My name is Kate Trondai, and I'm a college student.

[569] So as a gay woman, I'd like you to know that the lesbian community stands with you.

[570] by the lesbian community, I mostly mean myself, to be honest, I'm not sure if all lesbians like you that much, but I do.

[571] So I think that matters.

[572] So anyways, I'd like you to know that you're my personal lesbian icon and would love it if you could say gay rights on the podcast.

[573] Also, hello, that and soda.

[574] I love you too so much.

[575] Thank you for sacrificing your emotional well -being to be on the podcast.

[576] Bye, bye.

[577] Oh, my God.

[578] Kate, that is fantastic.

[579] Mm -hmm.

[580] And yes, gay pride.

[581] Yep.

[582] I'm totally down with gay pride.

[583] And I clearly, Kate, if you are my only lesbian fan, I am honored.

[584] I am truly honored.

[585] I have friends who are lesbians who love you.

[586] Oh, okay.

[587] So you have more than one.

[588] And I think it's because, and this is what I got from Kate.

[589] She thinks I am a lesbian.

[590] No, you're a lesbian icon.

[591] Yeah, yeah.

[592] That's, I think, part of my secret is that I think there are probably many lesbians out there who think that I am a lesbian.

[593] Well, can't you be a lesbian icon without being a lesbian?

[594] No, she made it, I think Kate made it very clear.

[595] Oh, okay.

[596] That I am thought of as a great lesbian.

[597] Okay.

[598] Which I'll take.

[599] Yeah.

[600] I think I have somewhat gender confusing appearance sometimes.

[601] Oh, yes.

[602] What are you talking about?

[603] Yes, you do.

[604] Well, let's talk about that.

[605] You can sometimes be a little bit more I can't there's like there's features in certain angles that are more feminine female I am very pretty very attractive face very pretty face you think you're pretty I'm dancing around this so hard yeah I think of you as gender scrambling that's that actually makes better sense.

[606] I'm a gender scrambling, okay.

[607] You know how you like jam a radio transmission so you can't tell, you know?

[608] Well, the important thing is Kate, I think, has brought up a very good point, which is I like to be all things to all people.

[609] Yes.

[610] So I really do.

[611] And if, if, and if Kate believes that I am, you know, an important part of the lesbian community, I'm down with that.

[612] Yep.

[613] Yeah.

[614] Yeah, you're the wonderbread of sexuality.

[615] You mean I have no nutrients?

[616] I definitely have no nutritional value.

[617] But you taste good.

[618] No, I taste good for a second, and then you feel horrible a little later on when your body realizes it just ate nine pounds of chemicals that have been whipped up into a white bread.

[619] By the way, apropos of nothing, one of my clearest memories as a child is we went on a field trip when I was at the Baldwin School at one of the, it's an elementary, public elementary school in Brookline, Massachusetts.

[620] And they said, we're going on a field trip today.

[621] And they put us all on a bus and we were so excited and they took us to the Wonder Bread Factory.

[622] Oh, no. And we watched giant machines shit out bread.

[623] Oh.

[624] Fake bread.

[625] You know, you'd think you'd go to a museum.

[626] Yeah.

[627] Or, I mean, we're right near Boston.

[628] But we could have gone into Boston and seen the site of the Boston Massacre.

[629] We could have seen the U .S .S. Constitution.

[630] We could have seen Faniel Hall.

[631] We could have seen the Old North Church.

[632] No. They took us out to some industrial part of Massachusetts.

[633] And they showed us the Wonder Bread Factory.

[634] And then they said we have a surprise for you at the end.

[635] We each got a paper hat that said Wonderbread on it.

[636] And I swear to God, mine, they dissolved instantly when we went outside.

[637] It's made out of Wonderbread.

[638] It was made out of Wonderbread, I think.

[639] It was made out of a...

[640] To this day, I'm like, well, how is that educational?

[641] I think it was teaching us about disappointment.

[642] Oh, come on.

[643] It's an American institution, Wonderbread.

[644] It is.

[645] I, like, you know, if I didn't care about my health, I would eat it all the time.

[646] I don't...

[647] I think we just lost them as a sponsor.

[648] All right, so I got on a little digression there about Wonderbread, but I do want to say, Kate.

[649] Yes.

[650] Gay Pride.

[651] Yes.

[652] Thank you for listening, and you're wrong.

[653] I think I am not toxic for my co -workers here.

[654] What?

[655] Yeah, what?

[656] Kate said that you're sacrificing your emotional well -being by being with me. Yeah, that's right.

[657] Not true.

[658] That's true.

[659] So, yes, Kate, to wrap up, I'm very proud to have you as a fan.

[660] You seem like a very cool, funny person.

[661] And, you know, talk me up on campus.

[662] Tell your friends, hey, Conan, he's the bees' knees.

[663] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend, with Sonamov Sessian and Conan O 'Brien as himself.

[664] Produced by me, Matt Gourley, executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Solitaroff, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Earwolf, theme song by The White Stripes.

[665] Incidental Music by Jimmy Vivino.

[666] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

[667] The show is engineered by Will Beckton.

[668] You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review featured on a future episode.

[669] Got a question for Conan?

[670] Call the Team Coco hotline at 323 -451 -2821 and leave a message.

[671] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[672] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[673] This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.