Sara Bareilles

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] You sound like a miniature mouse.

[2] I am miniature mouse today.

[3] Oh, my gosh, body swap?

[4] Yeah, and I'm talking.

[5] I'm Jack Shepherd.

[6] Oh, wow.

[7] You're full of yourself, it seems.

[8] We had the funnest conversation with Sarah Borellis.

[9] I loved her as a musician.

[10] I'm in love with her as a musician.

[11] And in love with her as a songwriter.

[12] And then just got completely bowled over with who she is.

[13] Her personality.

[14] She's awesome.

[15] I know.

[16] We really want to hang out with her.

[17] Yeah.

[18] You're really going to want to hang out with her, too.

[19] Sarah Borellis is a Grammy Award -winning and Tony and Emmy Award -nominated singer, songwriter, actress, and author.

[20] She was in Jesus Christ Superstar with John Legend, and she also wrote all the music for the hit Broadway musical Waitress, and she's had a bevy of wonderful albums, careful confessions, little voice, kaleidoscope, heart, the blessed unrest, what's inside.

[21] miss the chaos.

[22] And she has a new album out right now called More Love songs from Little Voice Season 1.

[23] You should check that out.

[24] She couldn't be a better songwriter.

[25] So please enjoy Sarah Borellis.

[26] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[27] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[28] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[29] Can you hear us?

[30] Yay!

[31] Oh my God, is that embarrassing?

[32] We were half -plugged in like we could get your audio, but the part, for whatever reason, that turned off the mic, yeah, needed to go in another eighth of an inch.

[33] No worries.

[34] Most things need to go in another eighth of an inch.

[35] I really think a little bit.

[36] I don't know.

[37] In six months, we've done...

[38] A lot.

[39] I don't know, 80 of these, and then we can't figure out how to talk to you.

[40] It's really shameful.

[41] Sorry.

[42] There's nothing shameful about it.

[43] I just peed with my ear pods on and I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm just peeing into this microphone.

[44] I haven't like quite, you know what?

[45] It's 2020 is a beast.

[46] Can I tell you the funniest story along that way?

[47] A good friend of mine joined a Zoom AA meeting.

[48] It was morning.

[49] It was really early.

[50] So he's making his coffee and everything.

[51] And he thinks his video's off and his audio's off.

[52] He starts coughing pretty bad.

[53] He's a smoker, right?

[54] He goes, Dax, I am making noises right.

[55] I'm like, like really trying to get it and then right at this moment where he is like oh my God I almost got to he's like I got to go to the bathroom this second takes the fucking computer into the bathroom has a full explosion and starts hearing people laughing from the Zoom A meeting and realizing the entire thing has been heard by everyone Oh my gosh if they weren't close then they are now Needless to say, he has not returned to that AA Zoom meeting.

[56] How are you doing?

[57] Are you in New York?

[58] In New York?

[59] I think, you know, for all intents and purposes, I'm doing okay at the moment.

[60] It's a real moment to moment this year.

[61] That's been my experience of it.

[62] I'm like kind of even, you know, within a day.

[63] I'm very prone to the peaks and valleys.

[64] And it's been obviously an emotional year.

[65] So right now I'm like fine.

[66] Uh -huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, minute to minute.

[67] Monica and I were talking last night about how, like, you have your normal life.

[68] You have your normal challenges and struggles that everyone has, but I think we keep forgetting that it's happening within also this context of like crazy uncertainty, but you're not aware of it.

[69] And then your other problems just are taking this shape that are so profound.

[70] You're like, wow, I normally handle this.

[71] And then you just, you've got to keep reminding yourself like, oh, this is very atypical and it's very stressful.

[72] Yeah, completely.

[73] And I've found that I think because of the severity of everything, like all of the real issues that are going on, it starts to feel like, does any of this other shit matter?

[74] Does anything matter other than literally life and death and this election?

[75] That's like so I care about.

[76] It's true.

[77] But yeah, there's like half the country's on fire.

[78] There's the global pandemic.

[79] There's an election, you know, seconds away.

[80] It's a lot.

[81] It is a lot.

[82] Too much.

[83] Some would argue too much.

[84] Some would argue too much and I would agree.

[85] Well, let's start with the fact that you wrote a song that my wife then sang that is by far my favorite thing she's ever sang.

[86] I can't tell you how often I force her to put on superhero.

[87] Oh, my God, is it good.

[88] Oh, my God.

[89] And the girls sing it.

[90] And it's such a goose bump maker.

[91] And it's on Central Park, the cartoon.

[92] How did you end up working on that?

[93] I think it came through Josh Gad.

[94] I think he reached out.

[95] And also, Lauren, because so my friend Kelvin Yu works on Bob's burgers with Lauren.

[96] And so Lauren and Josh both reached out.

[97] Asked if I was interested in writing for this.

[98] And animation is like the big bucket list for me. So this is a dream come true.

[99] And then getting to write something for Kristen, this thing was just like, come on, get out of it.

[100] And it's such a sweet scene and that character is so delicious.

[101] and then just getting to be really playful and imaginative and trying to imbue humor and kind of the awkwardness of her age and I had a lot of fun and they were so collaborative it was a really fun easy kind of back and forth it's awesome you too um creatively kind of share some connective tissue in that there's like acuteness and awkwardness and then yet there's also the perfection of some section of the song there's like like that's what christin does so well say in frozen or something where she can be bumbling and insecure at a moment and then really brave and all these things.

[102] And I think you creatively are kind of similar.

[103] I don't know.

[104] That's my assessment of you.

[105] I think that it feels really honest.

[106] Like that sort of version of how people, well, the people that I tend to, I guess, gravitate towards are the people that kind of approach life that way.

[107] Like I'm so not cool and collected.

[108] You know what I mean?

[109] So the people that kind of move through honestly, that feels well honest to me. It's because we're all kind of like a little bit of a mess and trying to have.

[110] hide it most of the time.

[111] Yeah.

[112] Collecting secrets along the way.

[113] Yeah, exactly.

[114] You're from Eureka, which is an intriguing place for me to think that you're from, simply that we drive through there often on our way to Oregon.

[115] We've stayed there.

[116] Where did you stay?

[117] I'm so curious.

[118] Do you remember?

[119] Where did we stay in Eureka?

[120] Like in the actual city, or did you camp?

[121] Or was it, did you stay in a hotel?

[122] No, no, I want to say that we got some coastal, I can't remember.

[123] I can't remember.

[124] We've been through there a few times and I'm kind of obsessed with Humboldt Coney in general and what is it called the like emerald triangle oh is that what it's called it could be there's a lot of weed there yeah but the weed i could care less about but there's also like crime and there's like people disappear yeah oh yeah there was that documentary like murder mountain or something like that yeah did you watch it no i didn't see it actually which i should totally watch it but which i think is kind of hilarious because i've never heard anybody refers to anything as Murder Mountain.

[125] Like, they made it seem like, ah, we all caught talking about Murder Mountain.

[126] I was like, I don't know if that's actually accurate.

[127] No, I should watch it.

[128] You're destroying my fantasy.

[129] Of Murder Mountain.

[130] Your fantasy is like, are there a lot of meth heads everywhere?

[131] It's very working class.

[132] It's this really interesting mixture of super crunchy granola, progressive, liberal -mindedness, and very conservative redneck, you know.

[133] People trying to live off the grid.

[134] and stuff.

[135] Yeah, some of that.

[136] And then a lot of country music, a lot of oddly, like, a little bit of Southern accent sometimes.

[137] Yeah, yeah.

[138] We're not that close to there.

[139] I have such a fun for the place, but it's a really unique place, which I think is why, you know, I love telling people, like, go explore.

[140] It's like a beloved and weird place.

[141] My main memory is, like, driving through the town on our last trip there, looking up healthy restaurants for my wife, clearly not for me. And And there being like 13 great options for organic food.

[142] And like you say, logging trucks passing you and all this conflicting stuff like dudes in lumberjack wardrobe and then all these healthy restaurants.

[143] It is.

[144] It's really unique.

[145] Yeah.

[146] It's got a really cute little downtown.

[147] It's like an area that used to have really robust industry logging and fishing being the main ones, which is why the community sort of built up.

[148] And then a lot of those jobs went away.

[149] So it hasn't really figured out what's next in terms of, like, how to sustain economically.

[150] So unfortunately, there's a lot of homelessness.

[151] There's a lot of people just kind of making it work.

[152] Okay.

[153] Now, your mother worked at a funeral parlor, which is just fantastic.

[154] I got a few questions about that.

[155] What role did she have there, I guess is let's start there.

[156] So she was, and this is sort of brief, it wasn't like six feet under where, like, I went down.

[157] saw the dead bodies.

[158] You know what I mean?

[159] All right.

[160] Rats, but, okay.

[161] Moving fast.

[162] She did, like, intake, so, you know, families would come in and she would work with them on designing the service, essentially, and she really loved it for a while.

[163] It was a hard job for obvious reasons, but I think it made her feel like she could really offer support in a really difficult time to people, and she's really good at that.

[164] So she liked it.

[165] And then I think actually it went corporate and they started getting pressure to upsell, like get the grieving family to buy the really nice coffin.

[166] And she's like, I don't like this anymore.

[167] I've always like been really perplexed by, of course it's a business.

[168] And of course they sell products.

[169] But it is a weird time to be like really strong.

[170] I mean advantage of somebody.

[171] I know also like the amount you spend on this coffin is going to be a real representation of how much you valued this person.

[172] Totally.

[173] But he doesn't need a cup holder.

[174] It's like down and around.

[175] I don't think he needs the iPad attachment.

[176] I don't think he's going to watch him anymore.

[177] You should have heard how savage I was when my father died.

[178] I was dealing with it over the phone.

[179] It had happened in Michigan.

[180] And so I'm calling around out.

[181] I'm like, I just need a cremation.

[182] Okay, well, we can cremate them in this box or that box.

[183] And I'm like, put them in a plywood box.

[184] I don't mean to be rude.

[185] But what are we talking about?

[186] You're going to throw this thing in the fucking oven.

[187] Why would I buy something nice?

[188] Is there a cardboard option?

[189] We won't burn plastic because that's not going to go well for the environment.

[190] But yeah, totally.

[191] I'm with you.

[192] Honestly, I'm with you.

[193] Okay, now, at what age would you say you start getting interested?

[194] I know obviously you did musicals in high school, but does it predate that or is high school your kind of introduction to when you start singing and performing?

[195] I started singing and performing maybe a little earlier than that.

[196] I did some community theater probably when I was around 12.

[197] But I started playing piano when I was really young, like six.

[198] And I took lessons for a little while when I didn't like it.

[199] I didn't like when they were like, do something different with your right hand than your left hand.

[200] And I was like, this is hard.

[201] Bye.

[202] And so I didn't follow through in that sense.

[203] But I never fell out of love with the piano.

[204] So I did a lot of afternoons at the piano on my own.

[205] And then got involved in like choir and stuff in high school.

[206] But community theater was maybe my more introduction into performance.

[207] and I just loved it.

[208] I was a total ham.

[209] And I was an awkward kid and I got made fun of at school.

[210] And so I felt like, you know, you get all the weirdos to go to the theater community.

[211] And it's like this beautifully inclusive, wonderfully diverse group of people who like lift each other up.

[212] I'm like, this is the magic spot for sure.

[213] Yeah.

[214] But yeah.

[215] Yeah, I feel like I really missed out on that.

[216] I wish I would have done more of it when I got to college.

[217] I was a communications major in college.

[218] Oh, hold on.

[219] That's going to be the bulk of you and I because we were there.

[220] the same time I just figured out.

[221] No way.

[222] Yeah, let's just put it up in because I really want to geek out on that.

[223] Okay, great.

[224] Great, great, great, great.

[225] Yeah, so community theater and then high school, I did, you know, little shop of horrors at high school, and that was, like, peak existence.

[226] I was living for that production.

[227] Yeah.

[228] But seeing you now, I feel like it'd be hard to think that you got made fun of.

[229] Yeah, yeah, you're a major babe.

[230] Yeah.

[231] You'd be surprised.

[232] But what about just, like, awkwardness?

[233] Or awkwardness?

[234] I was a chubby kids.

[235] I went to Catholic school, which is just a whole other separate.

[236] We can dive into that too.

[237] But yeah, I had like some new kids in my class and it was such a small class.

[238] And you just like as I want to say like maybe even, you know, second or third grade, you kind of get your roles or your whatever the stereotypes about you.

[239] Like they're just indelible and they didn't change.

[240] Each year would pass.

[241] And I'm like, I don't think they should be like called that anymore.

[242] I'm like, I would have this like real crisis of identity where I'm like, I would feel good during the summer and I'd like work really hard.

[243] But anyway, there was no upward migration out of your class strata.

[244] No, until I changed schools.

[245] I went to public school in eighth grade and then it changed.

[246] But the body dysmorphia and all of the self -image issues, those are still intact.

[247] So thank you.

[248] Thank you.

[249] Thank you.

[250] Catholic school.

[251] Did you have to battle to get into public school.

[252] Was that a hard fight?

[253] I assume you wanted to go to public school or no?

[254] No, actually, I have a strong memory of a really good conversation with my mom.

[255] And by good, I mean, she was like a real tough love with me on this moment.

[256] I would come on crying from school all the time.

[257] And finally, she just was like, what do you want to do about this?

[258] You cannot come home crying from school every single day.

[259] Do you want to switch schools or not?

[260] And then finally decided it's the school.

[261] And my best friend at the time, her name's Anna Massey.

[262] She switched schools to and we like went to public school and I was like you get to choose what you wear every day this is a dream come true and also very stressful my mom had the exact same experience so catholic school up to eighth grade then went to high school and she's like oh my god what is fashion what i what are these shoes and you pin your pants and like just total panic of what everyone seemed to already have figured out totally it was body suits and flannels is really what i was prime in my like junior high high school A lot of like grunge, 90s grunge.

[263] Absolutely.

[264] Okay, now this is very exciting because we started UCLA at the same time.

[265] Despite the fact that I'm four years older than you, we started both in 98.

[266] And what I love about the fact that you were a comm major is my main memory of the first few months at that school where every class they'd kind of ask you what your major was.

[267] And 80 % in the class was always like, come, hopefully.

[268] Like it was every, and I was like, what this many people want to be in calm?

[269] What's going on?

[270] And you made the cut.

[271] This is very exciting.

[272] Yeah, but I was undeclared my first year.

[273] And then I knew communications was like this impacted major.

[274] And then once you finally got in, you realize it was like, oh, it's because all of the jocks, all of the sorority girls, like all everybody, like everybody's in this thing.

[275] And then you get to the end of your years of studying it.

[276] You're like, I'm not totally sure I studied anything.

[277] Yeah.

[278] I can't tell you what we learned.

[279] Well, that makes me so happy to hear because my first thought was just like, can you study communicating for two years?

[280] I mean, I had like a one -com class.

[281] You learned interpersonal, interpersonal, and interpersonal.

[282] And isn't that a wrap on communication?

[283] Right, right.

[284] I remember we had a couple of sociology classes that I really thought were interesting.

[285] But I think the reason I liked it is because it felt like it was just studying human behavior.

[286] So that's what I can tell you about it.

[287] Yeah.

[288] Now, coming from Eureka, you were Catholic school, then public, that's a big leap.

[289] And then you leave Eureka and you come to UCLA.

[290] Did you want to go to UCLA just because it was in L .A.?

[291] I didn't even want to go to UCLA.

[292] I was all set to go to San Francisco State.

[293] I think one of the things about growing up in a small town that I have learned about myself is that I tend to be very myopic about what's right in front of me. I'm not really like a big dreamer that way.

[294] I'm just like kind of do the thing right in front of me. And I had a lot of family in the Bay Area, so San Francisco felt very logical next step.

[295] And I had, I almost said auditioned.

[296] I had auditioned for San Francisco State.

[297] I got into San Francisco State, and I actually was getting like a little vocal scholarship to go join the music program there.

[298] It was like $2 ,000 or something.

[299] And then I wasn't even going to apply to UC schools because I didn't come from money and they were expensive and I didn't even want to put that burden on the family.

[300] And my sister gave me a check for a, 200 bucks.

[301] And she's like, use these $200, apply to some schools, some of the UC schools.

[302] And I got into UCLA.

[303] I've never in a million years that I think I would even get in.

[304] And then my English teacher at the time, this is a spalter, she pulled me aside.

[305] I had showed her the acceptance letter thinking like, well, I'm not going to go here.

[306] But this is cool.

[307] I got into UCLA.

[308] And she's like, you may not not go there.

[309] Like, you cannot get into UCLA and not go to UCLA.

[310] I won't allow it.

[311] Wow.

[312] And so I went to UCLA.

[313] So your sister and your English teacher.

[314] Yeah, it's people telling me what to do.

[315] That's my whole life.

[316] Okay, so now I want to just drill into one thought.

[317] When you first were like fuck piano lessons, your explanation was, it was just hard, which is a great one, and I can relate to, but yet you seem to be open to, like, suggestion or trusting people.

[318] There's like a humility in the fact that you listen to your English teacher or that you listen to your sister.

[319] Yeah, I still struggle with trust.

[320] my gut on things.

[321] And I struggle a little bit with answering that question that feels like it should be so simple.

[322] The question of what do you want?

[323] Like, what are you aiming at?

[324] What do you want for yourself?

[325] And sometimes I find that question to be impossible to answer.

[326] I can't possibly know.

[327] And so I tend to do what's in front of me because it's easier than like figuring out that very tragically difficult question.

[328] But yeah, I think I trusted them certainly.

[329] My English teacher It was a really close confidant of mine through school, and I loved her so much.

[330] And, yeah, it was just serendipitous.

[331] And I accepted without going to see the campus.

[332] And then I got to orientation and was like, the fuck is my doing here.

[333] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[334] Like what?

[335] And Beverly Hills 902 on now.

[336] Oh, my God.

[337] I remember seeing the beaches of Los Angeles for the first time.

[338] And, like, I grew up in Norkout.

[339] You dress like this to go to the beach.

[340] Yeah, and it's a dark brown beach in the water is 39 degrees.

[341] There's like sharks.

[342] You don't go in the water.

[343] You're just walking your dog or whatever.

[344] And then I go down and it's legit Baywatch down there.

[345] And I'm like, my mind is blown.

[346] Blown.

[347] I too moved L .A. and I moved from a town similar to the one you've described, which is like it was very blue collar, all automotive workers, very high hillbilly contingency, even though we were by Detroit.

[348] Dudes with accents to your point, inexplicably.

[349] Crazy how that happened, huh?

[350] Yeah, tons of violence just fights every day.

[351] Everyone.

[352] one's violent.

[353] People are challenging each other at Burger King and everywhere else.

[354] And then, yeah, I moved to L .A. and I was like, this is incredibly different.

[355] And whatever thing that I had defined myself is cool is not working here.

[356] People don't want to hear any fight stories.

[357] I'm smoking on campus.

[358] No one smoked.

[359] Everyone smoked in Detroit.

[360] And I'm like, oh my God, I'm a fucking dirtbag here.

[361] I'm a complete dirt bag.

[362] I remember feeling just like tragically inadequate because I didn't know what anyone was talking about.

[363] Like I got to school and it seemed like all the girls had these Kate Spade bags, I had never heard of it.

[364] I didn't even know what it was.

[365] And I'm like, why is that thing important?

[366] Like, you cannot purchase something that is Gucci where I go, it doesn't exist.

[367] So my whole understanding of the world was completely different.

[368] I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to care about this stuff, which is why I still fucking don't care about it.

[369] But like, it was mind -blowing.

[370] And then I just felt like an alien.

[371] Did you try to care?

[372] Like, was there a section of time where you were like, I guess this is how I'll assimilate, so I'll get the bag and I'll do it and then ultimately just no, or you were just like, no. I did.

[373] I had a little bout of time where some of my dear friends still all joined the same sorority.

[374] So my freshman year, I made a close group of girlfriends, and they all rushed and joined the same sorority right when we got their freshman year.

[375] Now, I didn't join, and by the end of the year, I was like, these are all my friends, they're all in the same sorority.

[376] Like, am I a sorority?

[377] I never even really know what that.

[378] means and I went to a rush event first of all I felt so weird in the room like everyone is perfectly nice to me but I like turned on this real like bushy tail like sweet gal I'm like I just went through like the body snatcher thing I don't even know what happened and I walked out I was like well I can't do that that is just too crazy for me but they're all super super sweet to me and very inclusive but I went through a period of time where I was looking for my home and then I met my a cappella group.

[379] And that was like a real game changer for me where I started singing.

[380] It was again, it was like a little bit of a misfit, you know, like a coming together of misfits.

[381] And that's where I felt like I belonged way more than anywhere else.

[382] Here's where you start racking up the victories.

[383] You win two spring sings at UCLA.

[384] Right?

[385] That's pretty awesome.

[386] You've done your homework.

[387] This is what I love about this podcast.

[388] Y 'all dive deep.

[389] Well, let's let's be honest.

[390] I go through Wikipedia.

[391] And by the way, I find out 30 % of it's wrong in every interview.

[392] So the fact that your mom worked at a funeral parlor, I was like, who past that hurdle.

[393] We just interviewed Keith Urban.

[394] I was like, look, man, I just want to say, I love people who paid their dues.

[395] And the fact that you performed every summer at a wave pool in Australia makes me like you.

[396] And he's like, I didn't do that.

[397] I've never performed at a wave pool.

[398] What are you talking about?

[399] I'm like, there was a water slide park.

[400] No, didn't you perform every Sunday?

[401] He's like, no, I don't know what you're talking about.

[402] There's no water side plaque and I'm like, oh, that was the thing I thought was awesome.

[403] That's such a specific and inaccurate thing.

[404] Like, what a specific dream to have for Keith Urban from whoever added that to Wikipedia?

[405] You know what I mean?

[406] A thousand percent.

[407] And by the way, it wasn't even, like, there'd be an obvious incentive for the owner of the actual wave pool or a water slide part to start that rumor, but they would add their name.

[408] But it just said it was like an indiscriminate, right?

[409] Yeah.

[410] She looked it up in the fact check.

[411] Yeah.

[412] Okay, so you become I'm friends with the Maroon 5 guys.

[413] They're all L .A. guys, right?

[414] Yeah, yeah.

[415] They were all L .A. guys, and a lot of them went to Brentwood together, high school or middle school.

[416] Which is like 85 feet from UCLA.

[417] Yeah, exactly.

[418] Right?

[419] It's like, I don't know, 18 blocks.

[420] Totally.

[421] Yeah, I met all of those guys through Spring Thing.

[422] So Spring Thing is like the talent show, the springtime talent show.

[423] We had Mr. Belding was the judge the first year.

[424] I know.

[425] Oh, wow.

[426] Who's that?

[427] Mr. Belding from Save by the Bell.

[428] Oh.

[429] Dennis Haskin.

[430] Wow.

[431] Oh, wow.

[432] I love saved by the Bell.

[433] So you're kind of getting a sense of how cool it is, right?

[434] You're starting to pick up on what a high -level vogue scene this was.

[435] Okay, okay.

[436] Can I tell you, my level one of the groundlings, there was a guy that had been on hundreds of episodes of Saved by the Bell in a very small role.

[437] I think he worked at the restaurant they all hung out with.

[438] I don't want to further embarrass myself for forgetting who we're talking about.

[439] He would know, he was older than the guys.

[440] Yes.

[441] Probably Max.

[442] Okay.

[443] And he was in the first level of the groundlings and he had a convertible jaguar.

[444] And I was like, man, that's the shit right there.

[445] Driving a convertible jaguar to like level one groundlings to learn improv.

[446] I was blown away.

[447] Yeah.

[448] I don't know if that's the first place I put my money, but that is, that's awesome.

[449] You have it.

[450] Now, you're fine performing or do you have anxiety?

[451] Like, I imagine the spring sing because it's a competition.

[452] Like, did you have nerves?

[453] I mean, is it interesting?

[454] to do an art form that's competitive.

[455] Totally, and that's what we do.

[456] We just take these cool things that people do and then we pit us against each other and we make it a contest.

[457] Yeah, I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't eating.

[458] I was like really, really jacked up with nerves.

[459] But the first year, my freshman year, I auditioned to perform and I was too nervous to audition as a solo act.

[460] So I auditioned as a duet with my friend and we didn't get in.

[461] So because I didn't get in, I joined the company, which is like their little sketch group through my friend Barry, who is still a very good friend of mine.

[462] He was in my group, and he was the connector to all the Maroon 5 guys and stuff.

[463] So that's how I ended up meeting so many of my really close friends from my UCLA days was from not getting into bringing as a performer.

[464] But then the second year, I dominated, and I beat Maroon five, and it was awesome.

[465] Did you have a boyfriend at this period?

[466] Did you date a Bruin?

[467] No, I did not date.

[468] Well, I made out with people because I was a drunk asshole, but I did not date at all in college.

[469] I almost, I lost my breath asking that.

[470] I wasn't that I didn't want to date.

[471] I just could not get anyone to pay attention to me. I can relate.

[472] Monica can relay.

[473] You didn't date in college either?

[474] I barely date now for the same reason.

[475] But yes, no, I did not.

[476] And everyone was dating around me and you feel like there's something wrong with you.

[477] Yeah.

[478] And then people ask you questions like, why didn't you date?

[479] It's like people going, why haven't you hosted Saturday Live?

[480] And I'm like, oh, well, I don't want to.

[481] I'm so glad you said that one because I've been asked that a couple thousand times.

[482] And I'm like, well, not because I wouldn't kill to.

[483] I know that part of it.

[484] You're like, shut up, mom.

[485] Okay, so you get out of college.

[486] And at that time, are you certain you'll stay in in Los Angeles or what are you thinking once you get out of college?

[487] Yeah.

[488] So by the time I get out of college, I have started playing some little shows.

[489] in and around town, a lot in Westwood, like at Westwood Brewco, and I was doing a lot of just, like, local small shows and had just started to build, you know, a really loving and loyal fan base that was kind of UCLA -based.

[490] I had started writing songs, and so Spring Sing was definitely, like, a big pivot point for me of getting a taste of what it felt like to sing in front of a big crowd was, like, so intoxicating.

[491] Yeah.

[492] So I knew I wanted more of that, and then it was just about writing more.

[493] material and trying to get up the courage, I suppose, to really pursue it more seriously.

[494] But yeah, I knew I was sticking around L .A. I also went to UCLA for five years.

[495] I didn't graduate in four.

[496] So I did my third, my junior year in Italy.

[497] And because I'm so intimidated to talk to professors, I didn't get any of my credits to transfer.

[498] So I basically like took a year off, went to school for a year in Italy, in Italian, and then was too, like, nervous to go into the offices to ask them to, like, write the credit, like, the normal thing you're supposed to do if you go away to school.

[499] So it's as if my junior year didn't count.

[500] You had a gap year within your studies.

[501] I had a gap year in which I went to school.

[502] Yeah, yeah.

[503] My first question is, do you have an explanation for it?

[504] Are you still wondering about it as far as, like, why you wouldn't have been able to muster up the confidence to do that?

[505] I mean, it comes from the same place that makes me like a little nervous to like call to order pizza.

[506] It's like that same part of me that's like just anxious about having any kind of interaction with a stranger, which I've gotten over quite a bit.

[507] But yeah, it felt too complicated.

[508] It felt like doing my taxes or something.

[509] It was just like, this is going to be too hard.

[510] There's too many forms to fill out.

[511] I'd rather just go to school for an entire other year.

[512] It's like you're going, no, I don't want to use my second hand on the piano at a different rhythm, so I'm out.

[513] Yeah, so I gave up.

[514] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[515] What's up, guys?

[516] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[517] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[518] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[519] And I don't mean just friends.

[520] I mean the likes of Amy Polis.

[521] Kelle Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[522] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[523] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[524] We've all been there.

[525] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[526] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

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[528] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[529] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[530] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[531] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[532] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[533] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[534] Now, really quick about Italy, where were you?

[535] Did you speak Italian before you got there?

[536] I know you were Italian, and you grew up Catholic.

[537] Yeah, I was an Italian minor at UCLA, so I was a comm major Italian minor.

[538] So I had a language class every day.

[539] And I lived in Bologna, which is northern central Italy.

[540] Home of Ducati, I've been.

[541] Yes, and pasta Bolognese.

[542] The food is incredible, incredible, incredible.

[543] And yeah, I lived there for a year, or I guess it ends up being like the nine months of the school year or whatever, but it was amazing.

[544] And also, I would say one of the pivot points in my life, when I lived in Italy, I realized that songwriting was not just a passion or a side project, but it was actually like a really important part of my identity.

[545] I had several nervous breakdowns while I was there.

[546] I feel like it's so important for everybody to feel foreign.

[547] It's so important to, like, build empathy and compassion for how hard it is to be in a country that you're not from.

[548] And I was extremely homesick.

[549] But I stuck it out.

[550] And then I started really channeling my feelings through music.

[551] That was a big shift for me. Bader Meinhoff, frequency illusion.

[552] We literally were just talking about this two days ago because a friend of Monica's went out on her own to visit somewhere.

[553] And I was saying I once went to Italy.

[554] And my friends didn't arrive through a series of drinking.

[555] accidents.

[556] They didn't show up when they were supposed to.

[557] So I was just by myself just for three days in Venice.

[558] And on day two, I was like, I am all alone on the planet.

[559] No one will care if I die.

[560] I can't speak to anybody.

[561] I mean, the level of loneliness I felt.

[562] And then I just, I had brought a book, thank fucking God.

[563] And I read an entire book in three days because the pain of that loneliness I was not expecting.

[564] I'm outgoing, blah, blah, blah.

[565] So yeah, to do a year of that.

[566] I have to imagine, in retrospect, an incredible character moment just in life.

[567] Oh, totally.

[568] I mean, it was amazing.

[569] And I look back and I did things that I'm like, what were you thinking?

[570] Like, oh, my God, like, you know, I had an American girl who was my roommate and then we also lived with three other Italians.

[571] And you get two weeks of like, you can live here.

[572] And then you have to figure it out.

[573] You have to find an apartment, figure out where your classes are.

[574] I mean, the whole thing was just like, I cannot believe I got on that plane.

[575] Like, I had it.

[576] As an 18 -year -old, what an idiot.

[577] But it was extraordinary.

[578] And living there, and by the end, I really missed home.

[579] America is certainly fucked up, but I love it here.

[580] And I love being here, you know.

[581] Okay.

[582] Did you take an Italian lover at any point?

[583] Yes.

[584] I had a couple.

[585] Yes.

[586] Yeah.

[587] Oh, I was so scared you were going to say no. I know.

[588] That would be real tragic because, you know, the Italian men are down to clowns.

[589] though.

[590] Yeah, and they are not afraid to chat up a gal, huh?

[591] However invisible you felt at UCLA, I have to imagine it was like a light switch where you're like, oh, every light is pointing at me, I think.

[592] The beginning, you're just so like, oh, my God, Bella, chaubella, oh my goodness.

[593] And then by the end of the year, I'm like, you motherfucker, won't you shut your mouth?

[594] But you don't, like, I did not ask you to comment on my appearance.

[595] Yeah.

[596] That's it culturally imbued in them.

[597] The men comment on the women, on their physicality, incessantly, to a point that I find to be really ugly and distracting and unhealthy.

[598] Now, I don't know if that's changed.

[599] This was a lot of years ago, but one of my professors in our final oral exam told me I gained weight while I was saying, oh, say ingratta, boy.

[600] I'm like, did you just tell me I got fatter this year?

[601] Oh, my God.

[602] It was wild.

[603] It was wild.

[604] Wow.

[605] Yeah.

[606] I don't know what sentence I want you to say in Italian, but I just really want.

[607] want you to say like a love.

[608] Can you describe my looks?

[609] Objectify me and I won't know.

[610] So be as harsh as you'd like to be.

[611] This will be great.

[612] And then for whatever Italian listeners, this will be really fun.

[613] And I'll never find out.

[614] I don't remember a lot of words.

[615] I feel like one was tall.

[616] Tall.

[617] Alto, right?

[618] Isn't that tall?

[619] That's what I That was what I put two and two together.

[620] Wow.

[621] You're really good at it.

[622] You speak Italian too.

[623] I guess I do.

[624] Chaubello, chabello, chabello.

[625] I embarrassed Kristen so bad.

[626] We did a movie that shot for two weeks that we were both in and we were in Rome.

[627] And I was infected with that place and everywhere we went, I was charitically, if that's a word, like I have Tourette's.

[628] I do have OCD and some impulse control issues.

[629] Everywhere we went, I couldn't stop.

[630] I mean, just on fire to be in that city.

[631] And we would get elevators and just under my breath.

[632] I'm like, you got to fucking stop.

[633] And I'm like, what are you talking about?

[634] If I saw a couple Italian dudes in an elevator in Beverly Hills and they were like, I'd be like, yeah, man, welcome to the country.

[635] We never have agreed on that.

[636] But yeah, everywhere I went.

[637] Hey, chabello.

[638] I loved it.

[639] I mean, Italy is just the greatest, the greatest.

[640] I took my boyfriend and I went to Venice together because he'd never been to Italy at all.

[641] And so I felt like, you're going to see something quintessentially Italian.

[642] You know, Venice is extraordinary.

[643] And Rome is probably my favorite city.

[644] Besides New York City, it's probably my favorite city on the planet.

[645] I think it's unbelievable.

[646] I have this funny memory.

[647] When I was in college, I started singing with this little Italian jazz.

[648] orchestra.

[649] It was part of, like, why I, like, reclaimed music.

[650] I met this guy who was, like, an expat, American guy that was the conductor for this jazz orchestra.

[651] And then we started doing gigs together, and we played a wedding.

[652] And I were singing at the reception, and they played that song from the band Abba.

[653] The winner takes it all.

[654] As the couple is coming down this hill on, like, a tractor.

[655] And I'm like, I've never seen anything like this.

[656] And are, do you understand the lyrics because that song is a really particular choice for a wedding.

[657] Oh, that's great.

[658] You return, you start performing locally, and then you put up, your first album, did you kind of self -produced and self -put -out?

[659] Actually, someone that my a cappella group had worked with, his name's Gabriel Man, and he's a writer -composer.

[660] He actually did all the music for Modern Family, which he's done for forever and ever now.

[661] Yeah, good friend, known him forever, and he produced my first record.

[662] We did like five songs, I kind of scraped together enough money.

[663] needed to do a few songs together and then put that out and my buddies in maroon five invited me to go on my first tour and so we did the two weeks with them on the east coast and it was a game changer in just every way shape and form I got a taste of what it felt like you know they took really good care of us because we're buddies and I just had the time of my freaking life and then I ended up working with their manager eventually oh oh okay so so then I got a manager and we kind of went the road of doing showcases and I did tons and tons of showcases for labels and lawyers and nobody wanted to touch me. Nobody knew what to do with me. They're like, yeah, you just like have a nice voice, but what's up with all the headscarves and like, I don't really get your thing on stage.

[664] And I have never been able to get over this tremendous sense of awkwardness that I have and it's very present on stage.

[665] And now it's become more of like, you know, that's a real comfort zone for me but I think people experiencing it for the first time they're like you swear a lot and I don't know why you're talking about your period so much yeah when you get nervous you just start like just every thought just starts kind of coming out it's completely verbal diarrhea yeah and I find that like my mind oddly just goes to like really obscure like strange like overshare because I think it's gonna like make people real I don't even know why people would relax knowing about my menstrual cycle but It's a fast fall.

[666] Just hearing that you have one has put me at tremendousness.

[667] I like it.

[668] It's relatable.

[669] We all, well, half of us have them.

[670] Well, half of us have it.

[671] A little more than half.

[672] Yeah, a little bit.

[673] We don't like to go to the doctor, so, us boys.

[674] So, yeah, you guys end up outnumbering us.

[675] I think what seems a little bit interesting about your story, and I might have it wrong, but you did so much kind of, I don't want to say high level, but like big tours before, per se, your own album warranted that.

[676] Is that an accurate assessment?

[677] I think I did a couple of good -sized tours.

[678] The Moon 5 definitely being one of them, especially after I signed with my manager, because I didn't get a deal until quite a ways after that.

[679] But it was always a good philosophy of his that he really believes in grassroots, like tour, tour, tour, tour.

[680] And that's why Maroon 5, that was how they built such a loyal, lifelong fan bases.

[681] They spent so much time, still do they spend so much time on the road.

[682] And it was a good skill.

[683] to learn.

[684] And I played a lot of local shows.

[685] I mean, hundreds and hundreds of shows before getting a deal.

[686] It's a bit like your Italian experience in that.

[687] So they give this incredibly high connected feeling with thousands of people.

[688] And then you go back to your hotel room and you're kind of high from that.

[689] And then it's lonely.

[690] It's very light switchy.

[691] How did you navigate that part?

[692] Were the parts you like, didn't like?

[693] Yeah.

[694] And I still feel that way about it.

[695] I think that's why so many people get really unhealthy.

[696] Yeah.

[697] And drink too much or use too much or use it all or whatever it is because the roller coaster.

[698] It's a bipolar lifestyle.

[699] That's what I want to say.

[700] It's like even if you're not mentally have anything, the actual experience is incredibly bipolar.

[701] Totally.

[702] And it's really confusing to feel like, oh, I'm so valuable in this one space.

[703] And then everybody goes away.

[704] And the interesting thing that I've found is that As you grow in the public sphere and some, I mean, and I just like don't walk down the street and have any, I'm not famous like that.

[705] But in the times like on tour, people do sort of treat you a little differently too.

[706] And there's like this interesting sort of insulation that just builds around you.

[707] And it is extremely lonely.

[708] It's very isolating and confusing.

[709] And you start feeling like, I don't feel like normal here.

[710] Well, it's almost like your insides are not matching your outside.

[711] at all, right?

[712] For me. And then there's these weird little potholes, too, that you don't anticipate.

[713] It's like you go on stage.

[714] It's this amazing experience between you and the crowd.

[715] And then you leave and there's a ton of people that have now waited for you.

[716] And so now you're in a much different dynamic where you're like, well, I want to give myself to these people.

[717] And also we're going on now four hours of us doing this.

[718] And now this could go on forever.

[719] And then there's guilt.

[720] Like eventually you got to get in the car and drive away.

[721] And that's just it's like, oh, wait, I was on this high.

[722] And now I feel kind of guilty.

[723] Again, it's just a lot of really high.

[724] heightened feelings all happening within four or five hours and then you're back in a hotel and you don't even know what city you're in and can you order food and blah blah blah yeah and i do think that you know the relationship to fans has changed so much especially with social media and there's like this sort of perceived intimacy that happens and there are people that i do know their names because i see interactions happening all the time but you know back in the day if you were giving a concert or doing a talk or doing something publicly there wouldn't be an expectation of like the runoff of what happened beyond that.

[725] It's like you did your job by being on stage and showing up and giving a thousand percent.

[726] But then beyond that, that isn't like required reading by anybody, you know?

[727] Well, and now this I think we're very similar in that is that your songs are very emotional.

[728] Like Kristen just loves love songs.

[729] Not only does she love love song, but she loves so much the story behind love song.

[730] Your storytelling is so unbelievable.

[731] I'm such a huge fan.

[732] is one of my favorite songs ever.

[733] I love it so much.

[734] And, yeah, the way you weave language, it's just, it's incredible.

[735] Thank you so much.

[736] I really, really appreciate that.

[737] So the things that you're singing about are connecting to people in this very emotional way.

[738] I have to imagine people are coming up to you and they're saying, after I heard your song, I left my husband.

[739] Or I, you know what I'm saying?

[740] Like something really, really important in their life.

[741] And then you're like, oh, my God, this deserves all of my.

[742] attention and my compassion and my presence.

[743] Yeah.

[744] And then you're just a human being as well who's only got so much of that to give.

[745] I think over the years you start to insulate a little bit from that.

[746] I wrote this book of essays a handful of years ago at this point.

[747] And I did one little book tour.

[748] And so I sat and I don't often do this like at shows.

[749] There's not a scenario where every person who wants to say hello can say hello, but I did that on the book tours.

[750] And it was quick.

[751] people moved through, but I was so struck by really what people wanted to share more than, like, I love your music or thank you for whatever.

[752] They wanted to share their pain.

[753] And I was so struck by that.

[754] And I would just come home from these events and I would like cry.

[755] There just, there isn't a way to hold it all.

[756] And I'm not even equipped.

[757] I think everybody should just have like four therapists at all times.

[758] I love that impulsing people, but certainly being on the receiving end is just, It is happy.

[759] It really is.

[760] What tools have you employed to not go down the attic road or the self -destructive road?

[761] Because, again, too, I think for me, so I on some level feel fraudulent often.

[762] Like, I don't deserve this.

[763] Yeah, that imposter syndrome.

[764] Everyone I know has it, especially, like, shockingly, every very successful person I know has it to some degree where they're just like, I don't know how I got here.

[765] And I don't think I deserve it.

[766] I've only met a couple where I. I'm like, like, and I don't know this about him.

[767] I met Matthew McConaughey.

[768] And I'm like, man, this is the dude.

[769] He, like, he's feeling it.

[770] He was built for this and it is great.

[771] Like, I just could feel this motherfucker was built for this.

[772] I'm like, happy for him.

[773] Yeah.

[774] He's like, yeah, this is about ride.

[775] This is like kind of what I imagine.

[776] Get in my car.

[777] Yeah, let's go for a ride.

[778] And I love it.

[779] I think it's spectacular.

[780] But yeah, I think a lot of us to feel like, well, I don't, I know I'm darker than you know I'm dark.

[781] You know, I know I'm not the thing.

[782] I've been in therapy for, I still talk to my therapist once a week, and I have for 10 years, and meditation is a massive practice.

[783] I get dark.

[784] I haven't really gotten close to, well, I had some bad habits.

[785] I think that we're growing on tour, but also as a singer, I just physically couldn't abuse myself and then still sing.

[786] So I think there was like a limitation that just lived in my world in a way, because I do love to drink, and I'm 40.

[787] That train kind of skipped me by, I think.

[788] But, yeah, I think, you know, a lot of self -reflection and meditation and it has been the lifesavers for me. Have you watched the Whitney Houston documentary, either of the two?

[789] I don't know which one I've watched, but I saw it in the theaters.

[790] Yeah, that was probably the Miramax one.

[791] The Showtime one I liked more.

[792] She was performing in these stadium tours.

[793] And as you know about Whitney Houston, she doesn't have one song that she can take off.

[794] or recoup, right?

[795] Every song is like a hundred percent.

[796] Yeah.

[797] And she is coaked to the max.

[798] She's not sleeping.

[799] She's super skinny and she's still going out there and doing it is.

[800] I've never seen someone with a force of will.

[801] Juggling what she was juggling and also putting on the level of performance is like unimaginable and heartbreaking.

[802] I know.

[803] That's what I remember about the one that I saw.

[804] I felt the same way when I watched the Amy Winehouse documentary where it's like, you're so angry at the people around them to.

[805] where you're like, you're using this person.

[806] You're using them to not prioritize their health.

[807] It's just, you know, such a crime.

[808] And, you know, we have this thing hanging up in the studio and we're normally in the attic.

[809] And it's a cut out of me. It says, would you date Dak Shepard?

[810] And, like, 78 % say no in America, right?

[811] Like, this was a poll that us weekly did.

[812] And, you know, it's so embarrassing that I'm like, I'm just going to, like, embrace this.

[813] So it hangs in our studio.

[814] But the other day, Monica, and I were in there.

[815] with some downtime.

[816] And the other side of that is Amy Winehouse, and it's a similar pull.

[817] And the poll is, do you like her style?

[818] And it's like 80 % no, I hate her style.

[819] And I'm like, you know, you're part of it.

[820] You're part of what killed her.

[821] Why the fuck are you evaluating, you know, why would you have a poll and take out a full page ad and fucking burn some human being about there.

[822] Yeah, it really hit me like, oh, there are a lot of things coming her way that you just have to feel bad about.

[823] Yeah, totally.

[824] I mean, yeah, this industry is so toxic on so many levels.

[825] know, to the celebrity of people eclipses their humanity so quickly.

[826] And then, like, we buy into it.

[827] We start caring about all the wrong shit.

[828] And you're like, oh, this matters.

[829] But you realize, especially in a year like 2020, you're like, no, it doesn't.

[830] None of this shit matters.

[831] I got too sad.

[832] I'm sorry.

[833] I bring up Whitney.

[834] But real quick, can I just really quick?

[835] Because you brought up, I'm going to go really long.

[836] Go on.

[837] Love song.

[838] There's a story behind that, right?

[839] Like, weren't you asked?

[840] You're right.

[841] I'm assuming everyone just knows the story behind that.

[842] Will you tell us?

[843] Yeah.

[844] Can you just tell us briefly?

[845] I think it's so awesome.

[846] So I think the story that kind of lives is not a total truth, but it kind of got easier to stop fighting it.

[847] Uh -huh.

[848] So the quick and dirty story is that like the record label told me to write a love song, and this was me like, you know, middle finger at the label saying I'm not going to write you a love song.

[849] What kind of really happened, which is sort of less interesting, is that I just wasn't getting the green light to go into the studio.

[850] I had signed my deal.

[851] I was working with a producer, co -writer.

[852] I thought I had all the songs ready to go.

[853] And I was like, I don't know why they're not letting me start recording.

[854] But I understood they were waiting for a single.

[855] Like, there wasn't really a lead single yet.

[856] And I was on my way to my little studio, which was a storage unit.

[857] It was literally like a, you know, the roll -down metal box things.

[858] And so I was working at a public storage in Marina Del Rey.

[859] and I was driving there and I was listening to the radio and I caught myself trying to like cop what was on the radio and and just like I was like oh I could write something that kind of sounds like this and then I was furious with myself I was like this is not fucking how I roll and I got into the studio and I kind of just like said a prayer and I was like just please let me remember me because I'm just I was the whole time I cried the day I signed my record deal I was devastated I was like I sold out I was always fearful that they were going to take something from me that I didn't want to give they, the big capital T. I don't know what that means.

[860] But I was like, oh, shit, I fell for it.

[861] I started doing it.

[862] And the song just poured out.

[863] I wrote it really quickly, which doesn't happen very often.

[864] And it felt like this very spiritual moment, actually.

[865] I was like, I'm not going to write you the thing that I think you need.

[866] I have to do this for me. And I thought they'd hate it.

[867] I had no confidence in the song.

[868] I thought they were going to be mad at me. I thought that they were going to be like, how dare you?

[869] Yeah, we get it.

[870] But motherfucker, yeah.

[871] Yeah, exactly.

[872] The beauty is they didn't even, they didn't know it was about them.

[873] They were like, all those like, yeah, cool, let's do this.

[874] I'm like, okay.

[875] Is the opposite of you're so vain.

[876] Yeah.

[877] I think the song is about you.

[878] They did not think the song was about them.

[879] For a moment.

[880] Yeah.

[881] Now, in retrospect, when you were telling yourself, I didn't want to be a sellout, do you think now from this vantage point that what you really had a fear of is that you would get a big chance and you wouldn't deliver in that the story you told yourself in your head was, I don't want to sell out?

[882] Or do you still feel the same way?

[883] Yeah.

[884] So my contemporaries were, you know, Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera and Jessica Simpson and Katie Perry.

[885] And from a, you know, even just from an aesthetic, I didn't see myself in those women.

[886] And they were very, very, very successful.

[887] And I think I was really fearful.

[888] And honestly, like my body image issues and my relationship.

[889] to my body and my health and feeling fat and feeling ugly and like all of these things that are still so alive for me you're overwhelmingly beautiful like this whole interview i'm like you are so overwhelmingly beautiful oh thank you no no truly my favorite thing is when you turn to the left or right and i see the profile of your nose it's my favorite i had so i had to learn to love my knows.

[890] I had to, like, choose to get on board with what God gave me. Like, I had to decide that.

[891] I had people in interviews being like, don't ever get a nose job.

[892] And I'm like, don't fucking say that to me. You fucking British bitch.

[893] Like, I couldn't.

[894] Well, by the way, Monica and I still hate ours.

[895] So I'm five years ahead of you and I'm still, I still fucking would blow mine up with a nuke if I could.

[896] You have to like decide at some point, like, am I going to be on my team or not?

[897] And I'm like, I want to be on my team.

[898] We had this hypnotist on, and as goofy as it sounds, this guy said the most brilliant thing to Monica, which is so true, is like, we underestimate the value of uniqueness.

[899] We really do.

[900] We don't ever think we're the only person that looks like this.

[901] And just being the only person that looks like this is intriguing and attractive and interesting to anyone who likes you.

[902] Yeah.

[903] It's really hard because everyone looks pretty similar on television.

[904] So it appears that there's an accepted aesthetic.

[905] But then if you really analyze your life, that's not how your circle works.

[906] No, no. And the people that I find the most intriguing and the most beautiful, there's so often, like, it's a quality that has absolutely nothing to do with their physical appearance.

[907] It's just, you know, people love confidence and curiosity and...

[908] Genuineness, authenticity.

[909] There's so many attractive elements other than the golden rule proportion.

[910] Yeah.

[911] But I think to your point, like that's...

[912] was a big part of what I was afraid of is that there was going to be all this pressure to like become something different.

[913] And the truth is, is that there was all this pressure to become something different.

[914] And you just have to keep saying no. Keep going like, no, I'm going to just wear the sneakers.

[915] And I'm not going to wear the high heels.

[916] And I'm going to just like not wear the sparkly tank top.

[917] You also like had the experience at UCLA with the girls in the handbags.

[918] That's essentially the same thing.

[919] So you kind of had practice.

[920] being like, oh, I tried that for a second and that really didn't feel good.

[921] Yeah.

[922] It's why I'm so grateful I had such a painful experience in middle school and in elementary school is because I know what it feels like to feel left out.

[923] And I don't ever want to be someone who makes somebody feel left out.

[924] I don't, I'm not here to like represent the fucking popular kids.

[925] Like, they're fine.

[926] They're fine.

[927] They don't need me. Like, who might need me is the person who.

[928] feels like they're not enough, and I want to just keep telling them that they are.

[929] Okay, we're going to fast forward a little bit, but after Little Voice, you get nominated for two Grammys.

[930] It goes number four.

[931] It's very, very successful.

[932] And then is this part right of Wikipedia that you did experience a little writer's block after the first album?

[933] Yeah, totally.

[934] I immediately know that I personally would be like, oh my God, I might have got lucky.

[935] I don't know if I can replicate this.

[936] That would be my fear.

[937] What was your fear?

[938] Same.

[939] Nobody, myself included, label included, no one thought that that first record would be successful.

[940] Like, it was kind of an accident.

[941] In fact, there's like this very shitty sort of story that happened behind the scenes where the president of my label bet my product manager.

[942] So I had two of these guys at the label that were like my homies.

[943] Like we were super tight.

[944] They took really good care of me. It was my product manager.

[945] And then my A &R guy, the guy that signed me. So Pete and Scott, we worked super close together.

[946] And the president of the label at the time bet my product manager $50 ,000 worth of advertising money that I wouldn't sell a certain number of records that week.

[947] And like he was betting against me. And so what ended up happening is like...

[948] For his own business.

[949] I know.

[950] I'm like, he's the son of a bitch.

[951] And so then when the record became successful and we were all like going, I don't I did not see that coming and so I didn't know what to do with that yeah the whole thing happened I mean it hadn't happened so quickly but the I guess that sort of leaped to the next level that did happen quickly where I went from being sort of like touring locally and feeling pretty much in charge of myself to flying all over the world and singing you know for strangers in different languages that was all very new and sort of like discombobulating so yeah writer's lock definitely Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[952] Now, how did you decide you wanted to get involved with Waitress?

[953] So I had done three records, and I realized very quickly that the cycle of being a recording artist starts to feel really monotonous really quickly.

[954] And I started to feel, I think, a little claustrophobic about the idea that you write a record, you record it, you go tour, you come home.

[955] when you take a break, you write a record, you record it really good.

[956] My life just started to really look cyclical that way in a way that did not feel good to me at all.

[957] And I wasn't unhappy or uncomfortable really.

[958] I have a cute little house in Venice, like boyfriend, friends.

[959] Like, I was fine, but I was like just not alive.

[960] So I'm a Sagittarius and I always want to like know, well, what else?

[961] What else is out there?

[962] What else can I do?

[963] Like, what other coffee shop?

[964] Like, I love this one.

[965] I already know that I love this one.

[966] I'll come back to this one.

[967] But I want to, It's like, is there another coffee shop?

[968] So I took a month and I just did like a little rum springa in New York.

[969] And I came to New York for a month with my sister.

[970] And I played and I hung out and I did nothing but just like have an adventure.

[971] And during that time, I took a couple of meetings.

[972] And one was with Diane Paulus, who's the director of waitress.

[973] And I had reached out to my theatrical agent saying like, I'm kind of curious about is there a theater project.

[974] I grew up on theater.

[975] I love theater, thinking that I would audition for something to be in a show for a while.

[976] And I had a meeting with Diane, and she was lovely and really intelligent.

[977] But the opportunity was to be a composer for the show, which felt like beyond even, I would have never even considered that as a place to go.

[978] It sounds very scary, especially for someone like you who I can tell is not going to force creativity.

[979] Like you're going to wait for it.

[980] And I didn't know what I was really saying yes too, but we had such a nice lunch and I basically said, you know, I hadn't seen the movie yet.

[981] I was like, let me watch the movie and let me see how it feels and, you know, we can agree to like, let's see what this is like.

[982] And if I suck at it, you'll let me know and we'll like shake hands and move on.

[983] And I watched the movie and I liked the movie a lot.

[984] I didn't, I now fucking love the movie.

[985] But I, it was a slow burn for me. So I watched the movie and I think that was actually helpful because I don't think if I had felt really intimidated by the movie, I may have, it may have hindered my ability to sort of feel like I had something to offer.

[986] Yeah, like you weren't worthy of it.

[987] Yeah.

[988] Now I feel like I'm not worthy of it, but I just, I'm so grateful for like the role it's played in my life.

[989] But yeah, so I wrote, and she used to be mine was, was the first song that I wrote for the show.

[990] It was watching Carrie Russell and Jeremy Sistow in the kitchen in that scene and she's just like so broken and so is he, and that was, like, the first song that came out.

[991] And then it felt like that was, again, a very spiritual moment where it was like, there's a connective tissue here that I have to go towards.

[992] Boy, you guys are kind of similar.

[993] Her and Carrie?

[994] Yeah, Carrie Russell, she's so down to earth, right?

[995] She's so blue collar.

[996] Never met her.

[997] Oh, my God, you must.

[998] She's very cool.

[999] It's a little bit like looking at the sun.

[1000] I don't know if I can.

[1001] How could you have not met her throughout this whole process?

[1002] She showed up to our attic with a sick.

[1003] pack and she's like you mind if I kill a couple beers while we do this and I'm like fuck yeah girl shockingly normal that's great so once you had success in that and it ran up until this year right yeah did corona have anything to do with it going away or it just was going away anyways thankfully our broadway company we had an official like closing date like I look back on that and it feels like such a gift to have been able to say goodbye to the show I mean it was heart -wrenching but we had almost four years on Broadway, which was an extraordinary run beyond any of our wildest dreams.

[1004] And you got nominated for Tony.

[1005] Yeah, so we had four Tony nominations for the show, and my score got nominated.

[1006] A little show called Hamilton also came out that year, so we were pretty fucked.

[1007] But, you know.

[1008] You're like Brian Wilson.

[1009] You're like, cool album.

[1010] What's it called, the White album?

[1011] Yeah, a rough year to compete.

[1012] Totally.

[1013] But it was, I mean, in a way, I feel like it was actually such a gift to the whole theater community because it shined this massive spotlight.

[1014] There was all of a sudden all this new interest in like what was happening on stage and I think it revitalized the community in such a cool way.

[1015] But yeah, I feel like my life falls into two categories.

[1016] It's before waitress and after waitress.

[1017] Everything about my life changed because of that show and I'm like forever.

[1018] In what way and that you have your foot in the door of a different avenue that isn't his taxing or repetitive?

[1019] Is that what it is?

[1020] I think it has to do with at a time in my life where I needed to be reminded about sort of the vastness of creativity and that how rewarding it can be to work on something because you enjoy it versus like there's so many Broadway shows that are in development and have been for 10 years like there's no guarantee that anything's A going to see the light of day be be successful in any way shape or form monetarily I'm speaking yeah but like it's this giant gamble and the beauty of theater, which I cannot say enough good things about, is that it's so deeply collaborative.

[1021] And there's like this many people paying attention.

[1022] Let me just say really quick, Sarah just made her fingers.

[1023] Like the tiniest, like less than a quarter inch was her fingers.

[1024] For how many people are interested.

[1025] Yeah, yeah.

[1026] I just imagine someone at home is like, did she hold her hands completely apart?

[1027] Like the whole world's paying attention or We're going to go ahead to make that the screenshot for the show.

[1028] But the odds of coming into this medium and becoming rich and famous are just like...

[1029] Yeah.

[1030] Yeah, like the motive stays kind of pure.

[1031] I watched Hamilton on Disney Plus, they're not a sponsor.

[1032] Yes.

[1033] My first greedy thought was these people work so much harder than I worked on television and they make, I think, an eighth as much is what you would make on TV.

[1034] And I immediately, I text Josh Gadd.

[1035] Like, what does the star of something make?

[1036] And the response is just you quickly realize, like, oh, these people are a lot purer than me. They are just doing it because they love it.

[1037] And there's something great about it.

[1038] And it's so rewarding, but it is so fucking hard.

[1039] They do eight shows a week.

[1040] They do two shows a day, twice a week.

[1041] It's incredible.

[1042] The perseverance and the dedication and the discipline.

[1043] And then, you know, what I also love about it is that it's not as competitive as it feels like in the music industry, at least to me, because the odds of you sort of like crossing paths with other people in your community, you know, shows don't run forever.

[1044] So you've been in a show with somebody or you came up with somebody or that was your lighting designer and now they're working on this other thing.

[1045] And it's a small community and in that way, like the Tonys are by far the most fun award show I've ever been to.

[1046] Oh, really?

[1047] I've been to the other ones now.

[1048] So, yeah.

[1049] I see it in Kristen, you know, because she went to musical theater school.

[1050] And, yeah, these people have hung on to the feeling that they're the kids in your high school theater.

[1051] Like they, where is, where, yeah, misfits.

[1052] Whereas, like, the movie business and the television business is more star -driven.

[1053] Yeah.

[1054] And it's more popular -driven.

[1055] It's more alpha -driven.

[1056] There's all these components.

[1057] But, yeah, it seems like even when these musical theater people get tons of recognition, they still just seem a lot more humble, I think, than.

[1058] other actors.

[1059] I think so too.

[1060] I mean, there's still assholes, of course, but, you know, for the most part, per capita.

[1061] There's less asshole per capita.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] And I just think you're really relying on people real time in such a way that you have great appreciation for them because you're very aware of how everyone has to do it in that moment or, you know, on a TV show, someone can show up like either still drunk or not show up or four hours late.

[1064] I can shoot my side and be like, well, I'm out of here, so I'm going to shoot my side.

[1065] There's all these ways where you're not dependent so much on everyone else.

[1066] And there's something about like the imperfection of theater.

[1067] Because you have to do it every day and it's live and shit goes wrong all the time.

[1068] There's just like, it's got precious in the way that's like maybe film or TV or music can feel because there's nothing to capture perfectly.

[1069] You know, it's just you do the best you can with what's showing up on that day.

[1070] Yeah.

[1071] Okay.

[1072] Now, the last thing I want to ask you about is, well, A, you wrote a and I just want people to buy it.

[1073] So sounds like me, my life's so far in song.

[1074] So everyone should pause right now and buy that book.

[1075] Pause and buy that book.

[1076] You'll be done with it in about a half an hour.

[1077] Okay, great.

[1078] Pause it, buy it, read it.

[1079] And then, okay, so everybody, welcome back.

[1080] Hope you enjoyed the book.

[1081] It's a great one.

[1082] Now, you did Jesus Christ Superstar with John Legend.

[1083] That seems having met you now, like a huge swing for you.

[1084] Yeah.

[1085] First of all, getting it.

[1086] offered it at all was like are you sure are you sure but thankfully i was just i mean i was in waitress at the time so so i guess my my like stage muscles were kind of primed at the moment and it could not have been a lovelier group from every person on the creative team to every person on stage it was so much fun it was so much fun and john and brandon victor dixon by the way playing judas i mean these are heavy heavy roles and they just carried them so lightly so i felt like well mary mags doesn't get to have a panic attack when you have one song or you have like two songs you got to just relax and just sing it yeah like you can draft on maybe john legend's confidence which i absolutely did yeah like i'm just going to step behind you and let you suck me through this yeah yeah exactly okay so you have a new album coming out or a record or an LP or a piece of vinyl.

[1087] I have an album that just came out, and it's called More Love, and it's songs from Little Voice, season one.

[1088] So I executive produced and created a television show with J .J. Abrams and Jesse Nelson, my partner on Waitress.

[1089] And it's about a young songwriter in New York City, and I wrote all the original music, and it's sort of loosely inspired by my life, except her life is a way cooler than mine was.

[1090] And, yeah, so that whole season, that first season, is out on Apple TV, us and it's binge -worthy at this point.

[1091] And so the album is the music from the first season of Little Voice?

[1092] Exactly.

[1093] We did a cast album, kind of similarly to how we did Waitress where there's a cast album and then I did my version of the songs as well.

[1094] So some of these songs were written when I was Beth's age.

[1095] In fact, so my first record was called Little Voice that we talked about that has love song on it.

[1096] And I had a dream when I was 24 or 25 about writing this song.

[1097] I was like, this is the song that's going to capture me right now.

[1098] wow, it's really important.

[1099] And then I tried to put it on the record, and they were like, it's not good enough.

[1100] And so it didn't end up on the record, but I was so attached to the song.

[1101] I wanted to name the record, Little Voice, so we did.

[1102] And then all these years, 15 years later or whatever, it's now that same song, Unchanged, is the theme song for the show and sort of like the little seed of the...

[1103] Oh.

[1104] It's like the thesis statement for the show, you know.

[1105] So, yeah, it's a beautiful show.

[1106] It's really heart -forward and hopeful and strangely nostalgic about.

[1107] New York because we shot it, you know, pre -coronavirus.

[1108] So it's uncinical and very heartforward.

[1109] And so it felt really good to put that out this year in a time, which is just a dumpster fire of hell.

[1110] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1111] Now, here's my question.

[1112] I've thought early on, now this is evolved for me, but early on I was like, I want coronavirus.

[1113] I want to get it over with.

[1114] And then I want to feel like I have a superpower.

[1115] And I want to like go everywhere because no one's going anywhere.

[1116] Like I thought, you had it, right?

[1117] Yeah, I had it super, super mild, thankfully.

[1118] Okay.

[1119] But I do, I must say, I do feel a little bit like a superhero, even though I'm sure you can totally, I mean, there's evidence or reports of people getting it again.

[1120] But yeah, I had it and I had the antibodies, so I feel fairly safe.

[1121] So I'm just licking the subway poles at this point.

[1122] Yeah, it's so interesting.

[1123] I do wonder when we get to a point where it's like, you know, there's so many people that have had it.

[1124] I don't know what percentage that would be, but like, I don't know, would you be allowed to walk around without a mask?

[1125] I don't think yet.

[1126] I don't think we're at that stage yet.

[1127] I wouldn't just because I think the anti -maskers are just out of their minds.

[1128] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1129] Yeah.

[1130] I just mean like there would be no reason for you, too, I don't think.

[1131] Well, yeah, but you can get it again.

[1132] I don't know how long.

[1133] And I think just at the off chance that, I mean, I know it seems like we know everything about the virus and we're really organized and like we have our shit together.

[1134] But on the off chance that we've missed something, I think The low percentage chance.

[1135] I'm just going to be safe on the safe side.

[1136] All right.

[1137] So little voice you've just read sounds like me and now you're going to go listen to Little Voice and watch the show.

[1138] And watch the show.

[1139] Welcome back.

[1140] Is there a recording of you singing superhero?

[1141] I have a demo.

[1142] I have an early demo.

[1143] We'd like it.

[1144] Oh my gosh.

[1145] Oh, no, I want to hit, please give me. Oh, my God, it's the best song ever written.

[1146] It is.

[1147] It's incredible.

[1148] Oh, my God, it gives me such fucking goosebumps.

[1149] It's so good.

[1150] Combining that amazing song with also every time I see my wife sing, I start crying.

[1151] It's like, it's lights out every time that thing comes on.

[1152] It's so great.

[1153] And you hear my little girls running around the house singing it.

[1154] It is so great.

[1155] What a beautiful song.

[1156] Thank you.

[1157] Sarah, you're so wonderful.

[1158] I know this, we've been trying to do this for a long time, and I'm glad that you hung in there with us and that we got to do it.

[1159] Thank you so much.

[1160] We want to meet you in real life.

[1161] Yeah.

[1162] Let's hang out.

[1163] Let's hang out.

[1164] Let's hang out.

[1165] In Canada.

[1166] We'll hang you.

[1167] Thank you so much.

[1168] This is so much fun.

[1169] And I'm such a fan.

[1170] Go Bruins.

[1171] Bye.

[1172] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1173] My favorite.

[1174] I cannot stop listening to this song.

[1175] I know.

[1176] I was jogging yesterday, listening to this on repeat.

[1177] Yeah, that's my MO, too.

[1178] Dancing on the treadmill.

[1179] Oh, wow.

[1180] Oh, my God.

[1181] You should have seen it.

[1182] And then Lincoln came down, and she was just dancing in front of the mirror, and we were both just dancing our asses off.

[1183] Oh, that's so nice.

[1184] I love it.

[1185] The lyrics are so perfect.

[1186] You know, I have a really hard time hearing lyrics.

[1187] Uh -huh.

[1188] Me too.

[1189] You too.

[1190] And I've been so selfishly delighted you have that problem, too, because I live with three ladies who can hear this, you know, two times they hear it.

[1191] So I bet I listened to it on the treadmill 14 times in a row.

[1192] And I'd already listened to it about 10 in the early part of the morning.

[1193] And I just now heard the Eve part of it.

[1194] Oh, yeah.

[1195] How the hell did Eve get all the damn blame?

[1196] And I was like, oh, God.

[1197] It's so, so good.

[1198] I love that you love it because.

[1199] It's a female anthem.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] It's a real feminist anthem.

[1202] I love it.

[1203] But men are feminists.

[1204] You know, I posted the video of me shaving my head to it.

[1205] And as I said in that post, like, I'm genuinely grateful that she gave my daughter's an anthem.

[1206] Yeah.

[1207] And that she gave you an anthem.

[1208] I know.

[1209] And then she gave Kristen an anthem.

[1210] And it's just so awesome.

[1211] So powerful.

[1212] I mean, I told her that I was a fan.

[1213] Yeah.

[1214] But I kept it kind of cool.

[1215] Sure.

[1216] Because I'm a huge fan.

[1217] The biggest?

[1218] Yeah.

[1219] The smallest biggest.

[1220] as I said to her, her songwriting is impeccable.

[1221] And fun and like not conventional and not boring in any way and goes different places.

[1222] And there's always like at least one line that's pretty profound.

[1223] But also just her voice is so unbelievable.

[1224] The way she hits like 40 notes in two seconds.

[1225] Yeah.

[1226] Well, you know, some people you can, I can sing along too and I can pretty much match.

[1227] Yep.

[1228] But she is almost impossible because she's so, like, each knows so specific and new and, oh, I love her.

[1229] I love her, too.

[1230] When I got home, I asked Kristen if she had the version of superhero from her, and she did.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] And when I realized, interestingly, because I think she wrote it for Kristen's voice and not her own, the chorus, I like Kristen's chorus.

[1233] But on the track, she has to sing Titus's part, too.

[1234] And when she sings Titus's part, I'm like, oh.

[1235] she got fucking nasty like she can get nasty too you know how much i like dirty nasty you like nasty yeah like that down south georgia fucking just oh because somebody fucking fucking 40 up in here oh thanks um remember during the Hillary campaign nasty woman was a big thing yeah i had a lot of pins and stuff That's a little nasty woman.

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] That's kind of funny because both sides took their, their negative moniker and owned it.

[1238] Yeah.

[1239] Like the deplorables owned deplorables and then the left owned nasty woman.

[1240] Totally.

[1241] That's what you got to do, I guess.

[1242] That's a ding, ding, ding, ding.

[1243] Oh, yeah.

[1244] Ding ding, ding.

[1245] I do want to say, I have one political message I want to say.

[1246] Okay.

[1247] Wow.

[1248] And it's to both people.

[1249] It's to both sides.

[1250] Okay.

[1251] Then it's, okay.

[1252] Yeah.

[1253] That's not really political.

[1254] But it is.

[1255] Okay.

[1256] is it's getting dangerous.

[1257] That's what I want to say.

[1258] Oh, the divisiveness.

[1259] It's getting really, really dangerous.

[1260] A lot of smart people I really respect are concerned.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] And I'm not one to generally get fearful about this stuff, but, and then also watching the social dilemma, knowing that's ramping us up.

[1263] And it's just, I just really beg everyone to just breathe a bit.

[1264] Detach your identity just a little bit.

[1265] Vote.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] Go vote.

[1268] We're in democracy.

[1269] Go vote.

[1270] And also just unplug a little bit.

[1271] And remember way more than left or right, everyone's a human here.

[1272] So that's all I want to see.

[1273] There was a cool sweater I saw that said, humankind, be both.

[1274] Ah, I like that.

[1275] Did you buy it?

[1276] Should I buy it?

[1277] It's like $400.

[1278] I'll buy it for you.

[1279] Oh, my God.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] So it's a BTS behind the scenes.

[1282] Okay.

[1283] It's early for us.

[1284] Oh, my God.

[1285] It's so early.

[1286] Monica's been pretty drowsy in the morning.

[1287] So she's like, yeah, I'll leave the door open and, you know, just what I'm going to be hanging.

[1288] kind of, it's fading in and out until you get here.

[1289] Yeah.

[1290] So I got here and I went to your bedroom and you were all fucking bundled up in your snuggles.

[1291] And then I basically karate kidded you, right?

[1292] Mr. Miyagi.

[1293] Yeah.

[1294] I started grabbing your feet and jostling your body around kind of radically.

[1295] It was an interesting way to wake up.

[1296] And then I was moving your legs like you were a baby who had gas.

[1297] And then.

[1298] Luckily, I didn't release any gas.

[1299] And then you got pretty fired up, right?

[1300] So we've decided that perhaps I'm going to start.

[1301] waking Monica up with some light calisthetics.

[1302] I imagine it's how they wake up Kim Jong -un.

[1303] Yeah.

[1304] He's just that little baby sitting in his bed.

[1305] He doesn't want to get up and be a dictator.

[1306] And then they have to come in and like flap his arms and get the blood moving and stop, move his head left and right, go blood flow.

[1307] God, it is so weird to think like he goes to bed at night in pajamas.

[1308] I suspect he sleeps for like 14 hours a night.

[1309] He is small.

[1310] Well, he's, yeah, he's got a rotund baby shape.

[1311] Yeah.

[1312] That's not to diminish any of the atrocities happening on the human rights.

[1313] Not at all.

[1314] Okay, Sarah.

[1315] Yeah, Sarah.

[1316] Okay.

[1317] Sarah B. Okay.

[1318] So Sarah's from Eureka.

[1319] You said you stayed there, but you couldn't remember where.

[1320] I thought it was some sort of coastal place.

[1321] You still don't know, right?

[1322] You know, the more I was talking to her, the restaurant part is definitely accurate.

[1323] it.

[1324] We might have stayed like on the coast, then drove into Eureka in the morning to head up to Oregon.

[1325] And I think we've driven through Eureka and eaten there a few times.

[1326] I don't actually know that we've stayed in a hotel there.

[1327] Don't you guys stay in like a specific hotel that you love?

[1328] No, like we spice it up every time.

[1329] Like sometimes we've taken the coast.

[1330] We'll make like two days of it and we'll go up through like Redwood City and then out onto the water and then up the Oregon like Coos Bay and then we'll come back.

[1331] Sometimes we go up towards Napa Valley and and stay at that really nice hotel, Kastoga Ranch, and then continue up.

[1332] You know, I'm a novelty addicts.

[1333] So I just want some new experience on the same thousand mile drive that we do often.

[1334] That's interesting.

[1335] It's a little counterintuitive.

[1336] For me, because I want to get places so fast.

[1337] Well, no, I just mean you also like the same.

[1338] I'm a creature of habit.

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] It's very conflicting.

[1341] You're right.

[1342] It's like what I do is I want to go to all these places.

[1343] But then I want to eat at the same restaurant.

[1344] I ate there last time.

[1345] Like, I want to go back to Enchantment so fucking bad.

[1346] Me too.

[1347] It's all I've been thinking about for two weeks.

[1348] Yeah, it's a hotel in Sedona that we went to when you were doing Top Gear.

[1349] And I want to eat that hamburger every single day we're there.

[1350] Me too, me too.

[1351] I want to sit by the pool and eat that hamburger every day.

[1352] That place is fucking.

[1353] I cannot encourage people more than to go to Enchantment in Sedona.

[1354] And that's where we recorded with Rob Cordry.

[1355] Yes.

[1356] Beautiful Bobby.

[1357] You know, when he was back home in Boston, everyone calls him Bobby.

[1358] They do.

[1359] Yeah, so we had one episode of Top Gear where we were using heavy machinery.

[1360] So I suggested we all had different names for that episode.

[1361] Oh.

[1362] And Rob was Bobby.

[1363] And Jethro was Jet.

[1364] And what were you?

[1365] Ah, what was I?

[1366] Fuck.

[1367] I don't know.

[1368] Something tough sounding.

[1369] Like Steve?

[1370] Dan.

[1371] No, I don't know.

[1372] I can't remember mine.

[1373] All right.

[1374] Well, watch the show.

[1375] Jet and Bobby.

[1376] Ha.

[1377] Bobby.

[1378] Okay, the Emerald Triangle.

[1379] you thought that was connected somehow and she didn't know what that was.

[1380] So Emerald Triangle is in California, Northern California.

[1381] Named as such due to its being the largest cannabis producing region in the United States.

[1382] The region includes three counties in an upside down triangular configuration.

[1383] Can I guess them?

[1384] Yeah.

[1385] Humboldt County.

[1386] Yep.

[1387] Cascade?

[1388] No. I'm really impressed you got Humboldt.

[1389] How do you know the counties in Northern California?

[1390] Humboldt's a very famous weed thing.

[1391] Oh.

[1392] Like, is this humble green?

[1393] Is this, you know, okay, I'm just going to try one more.

[1394] So, oh, fuck.

[1395] I don't know.

[1396] Fuck.

[1397] I thought I would have been to get, guess, one of them.

[1398] Well, okay, I'm going to give you a hint for one.

[1399] One is a restaurant we like.

[1400] Oh, wow.

[1401] Not Stamp County.

[1402] No, no, no. Okay.

[1403] Think like salad, sandwiches, but not stamp.

[1404] Like.

[1405] Oh, oh, oh, oh, Jones?

[1406] No. Um, they have a, okay, I'm getting, I'm kind of giving, oh, they have a salad.

[1407] You really like that is of the Chinese variety.

[1408] Jones.

[1409] Oh, shit.

[1410] Okay.

[1411] That's where I like the Chinese chicken salad.

[1412] Yeah.

[1413] Okay, I mess up.

[1414] They have a curried kuskus.

[1415] Oh, Mendocino County.

[1416] Yes.

[1417] I could have come up with that linked in it.

[1418] Yeah, I know.

[1419] And then there's going to be the northern one that has something to do with some mountains maybe or something.

[1420] All right, what's the last one?

[1421] Trinity.

[1422] Would have never got it.

[1423] I was way off.

[1424] Okay.

[1425] Humboldt, Trinity, Mendocino.

[1426] Should I look up what county Eureka's in?

[1427] It's in Humble.

[1428] It is?

[1429] Mm -hmm.

[1430] Okay, so you were right.

[1431] I feel like I should still check.

[1432] You should.

[1433] Humble County.

[1434] Humble County.

[1435] It's a Humble Pie County.

[1436] It's a humble county, Humboldt County.

[1437] Wow.

[1438] Good job.

[1439] I can't believe you know that stuff.

[1440] It's not that impressive.

[1441] Yes, it is.

[1442] Like a lot of people are going to be listening going.

[1443] That's, yeah, everyone knows that.

[1444] No, no one knows it.

[1445] Anyways, that documentary Murder Mountain is terrifying.

[1446] It's like ghost world.

[1447] Yeah, it's creepy.

[1448] People disappear there all the time.

[1449] Okay, when talking about Maroon Five guys were all from Brentwood, you said it was like 18 blocks from UCLA.

[1450] It's 3 .7 miles, 11 minutes.

[1451] Oh, roughly 18 blocks.

[1452] Okay.

[1453] Is that?

[1454] No, no, no, no, no. How many blocks is a mile?

[1455] Oh, wow.

[1456] Are blocks that standard?

[1457] Because in New York, the ones that run north and south are way shorter than the ones that run east and west.

[1458] Oh, exactly.

[1459] You know?

[1460] Man, I miss New York.

[1461] Me too.

[1462] Me too.

[1463] I was just encouraging, though, Kristen, to take a play, which I've always been against.

[1464] Oh, wow.

[1465] But after talking to Sarah, funny enough, I was like, she is right.

[1466] That's such a cool community.

[1467] Oh, yeah.

[1468] And it's so special.

[1469] Yeah.

[1470] And then just last time, I was like, you should try to find one in the summer.

[1471] And then Monica and I will just go And we can record in New York Oh my God Should we go to live there for the summer?

[1472] Yeah for like probably like four months I've always wanted to live there It's the only city I guess Except Enchantment Hotel in Sedona That I get a longing for Yeah I get like kings for it Yep like a lover you haven't seen Yeah I want to say one more thing about enchantment They are not a sponsor And it's won't be clear about that.

[1473] It is not cheap.

[1474] No. But compared to L .A. or California in general, it's about a third of what we would have to pay to have that hotel in California.

[1475] Right.

[1476] Like I just kept going like, this is the best bang for your buck.

[1477] I've spent in the last five years.

[1478] Yeah.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] And they have just the tastiest burger.

[1481] Not as good as Emily's.

[1482] I will say that on record.

[1483] It is not as good as Emily's.

[1484] Nothing is as good as families, but by God, you're not expecting to get, like, I think it's about the fourth best hamburger I've ever had, or maybe even the third.

[1485] And you're not expecting that in the middle of Arizona.

[1486] Pool food.

[1487] Pool food.

[1488] Yeah.

[1489] But they had, what a caramelized brisket?

[1490] Is that what they were describing?

[1491] Yeah, had some onion.

[1492] Crisp onions.

[1493] Crispy to onions.

[1494] Man, what a meal.

[1495] I'm starving.

[1496] Let's go to Sedona for lunch.

[1497] Okay, you went to groundlings with someone who you said, was insane by the bell.

[1498] And I'm guessing it was Max.

[1499] And I was just wondering if I said the name, if you'd know.

[1500] Hit me. Ed Alonzo.

[1501] Yep.

[1502] Was it?

[1503] Ed Alonzo.

[1504] In fact, I'm really sad I didn't remember that.

[1505] But that was 25 years ago at this point.

[1506] But it was at Alonzo.

[1507] And he was a very awesome dude.

[1508] That's so cool.

[1509] But I was just like, I was totally starstruck.

[1510] I was like, how could I be in a class with that guy who's been on TV forever?

[1511] It was very exciting.

[1512] And again, he had that old like a 90s Jaguar XJ like convertible, it's a 12 -7.

[1513] Yeah.

[1514] Black on Black on Black.

[1515] Oh, really?

[1516] Just like you're Pacific.

[1517] Well, speaking of Black on Black on Black, I have made a car purchase.

[1518] Yeah, I got a Dodge Charger, Hellcat, wide body.

[1519] Because I reviewed one on Top Gear, and it was out of all the cars I reviewed, it was the one I thought was the most ridiculous.

[1520] I have a question.

[1521] Yeah.

[1522] And you make car purchases.

[1523] Uh -huh.

[1524] Do you ever have buyer's remorse?

[1525] I've never had buyer's remorse.

[1526] But in honestly, let's see, I bought my pickup truck new in 2010.

[1527] That's the first new car I ever bought in my life.

[1528] And then in 2015, I got the new, that Mercedes Station wagon.

[1529] Yeah.

[1530] Now, I love that Mercedes Station wagon so much that I don't want to rack up a bunch of miles on it.

[1531] Like, that's a car I want to have the rest of my life as a collector's car.

[1532] So I got to stop driving it, basically.

[1533] Oh.

[1534] So this, I was like, I'm going to get this.

[1535] I'm going to drive.

[1536] Lease.

[1537] I've never leased a car.

[1538] Oh.

[1539] So I'm leasing it for three years.

[1540] Oh.

[1541] And it's ideal.

[1542] That's cool.

[1543] So we did mention about getting COVID twice and just in this science magazine.

[1544] Scientists have found the first solid evidence that people can be reinfected with the virus that causes COVID -19.

[1545] A new study shows a 33 -year -old man who was treated at the hospital for a mild case in March.

[1546] Harper of the virus again when he was tested at the Hong Kong airport after returning from Europe on August 15th, less than five months later.

[1547] He had no symptoms this time.

[1548] Researchers had sequenced the virus.

[1549] SARS -CoV -2.

[1550] the first infection, they did so again after the patient's second diagnosis and found numerous differences between the two, boistering the case that the patient had been infected a second time.

[1551] Ooh.

[1552] This case proves that at least some patients do not have lifelong immunity.

[1553] Hmm.

[1554] So that's that.

[1555] That's a bummer.

[1556] Yeah.

[1557] That's a real bummer.

[1558] Anyway, we love Sarah.

[1559] That's the last fact that we have to say is that we love her.

[1560] Yeah.

[1561] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1562] There's nothing else to say.

[1563] I can't believe someone said to her.

[1564] Don't get that nose fixed.

[1565] I know.

[1566] People are trying to, people have good intentions.

[1567] They do.

[1568] They bumble the execution.

[1569] I wish people would think just a little longer before they talk.

[1570] Yeah, yeah, myself included.

[1571] Well, I love you.

[1572] Love you.

[1573] And I want you to have a really good day.

[1574] Are you going to hop back in that bed?

[1575] Probably.

[1576] Fantastic.

[1577] Bye.

[1578] See an enchantment.

[1579] Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get.

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