S15 E4: [Alice + John + Naomi] The Wheels Fall Off

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something was wrong is intended for mature audiences, as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence.

[11] Content warnings for each episode and confidential and free resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes.

[12] Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[13] pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection.

[14] Testimony shared by guests on this show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, broken cycle media, or wondering.

[15] The podcast or any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional expertise or treatment.

[16] All persons are considered innocent and less proven guilty in a court of law.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] I'm so anxious and, like, nauseous.

[19] Here I am going behind her back to her boss and saying it doesn't add up.

[20] She would have been a Jane Doe.

[21] And he was like, I'm sure with her concussion, the details are foggy.

[22] And I was like, look, Steve, I feel like shit going behind my friends back to you.

[23] I need you to look into this.

[24] me and if you come back and you tell me that it happened.

[25] I will let it go 100%.

[26] I was like none of the people in the office know I haven't told anybody.

[27] The last thing I wanted to do was gossip around the office because everybody loved her so much and really accepted her wholeheartedly.

[28] I felt like I could trust Steve.

[29] I said, I'm coming to you to ask you as someone who's known me as a child.

[30] I am asking you to look into this to tell me if I'm friends with a psychopath or not.

[31] He said, okay, I will look into it and I will let you know.

[32] And I said, thank you.

[33] Three weeks later, he called me. I go back to the greasy spoon because that's where I'm like undercover, an agent doing my thing.

[34] I answer the phone.

[35] I'm like, hello.

[36] And he's like, hey, it happened.

[37] I was like, what?

[38] And he's like, everything happened.

[39] she got in the accident it happened in that moment i feel like the shittiest friend of all time if i found out that my best friend went to my boss behind my back and said to them that they thought i was lying about a major traumatic accident being hurt would be an understatement i don't know if i could get over that i really after that double down on our friendship because I felt like I was such a bad friend.

[40] Through this time of her being off work, I'm texting her.

[41] Her parents have come over to visit.

[42] She's texting me. I got to go.

[43] My mom has me on a very strict screen time regimen.

[44] So like every couple days, she would text me a bunch of updates and then be like, I got to go because my mom's taking my phone away.

[45] They're a bit harsh, but it's for my own good and it's for my healing.

[46] And I was like, all good.

[47] I remember feeling so awful about it.

[48] She was off work for about two months.

[49] So we had to clear her schedule.

[50] I talked to Steve.

[51] I was like, how is Karina doing?

[52] He assured me she's off and he was subsidizing her pay.

[53] He was paying what her normal salary would be so she could get by because our city is not cheap for rent.

[54] They created a back -to -work plan for her.

[55] Her parents, they fly over and they're helping her.

[56] She's going to all these doctor's appointments.

[57] They're checking her out and I'm being as supportive as I can.

[58] I was like, hey, I can drive you if you need.

[59] And she's like, no, my parents are here.

[60] They're taking me. Blah, blah, blah.

[61] Alice was Karina's roommate for quite some time.

[62] And when I first met Alice, Karina and her were living together.

[63] But at one point, Karina was like, oh my gosh, Alice is kicking me out.

[64] And I was like, why is she kicking you out?

[65] And she's like, oh, she's just this like uppity therapist.

[66] She's so stuck up.

[67] I drink her ginger ale one day.

[68] And she told me, hey, if you take any of my things out of the fridge, I'm going to ask you to leave because you've crossed a boundary.

[69] So ages later, she's like, Alice asked me to leave her apartment.

[70] And I was like, oh my gosh, Alice is such a bitch.

[71] She's so stuck up.

[72] Why is she asking to leave?

[73] And she's like, oh, it's so stupid, Naomi.

[74] I got home one night.

[75] I was so hungry.

[76] I just saw like 10 clients in the day.

[77] It was really late.

[78] She had some cheese in the fridge and I had nothing and I was just so exhausted.

[79] And so, like, I ate a piece of her cheese.

[80] Alice, the next morning, was like, I got you.

[81] You ate my cheese.

[82] I'm kicking you out.

[83] I remember being like, oh, my gosh, Greena, that is insane.

[84] Fuck her.

[85] Go find your own place.

[86] Who needs her?

[87] She seems like a weird friend anyway.

[88] During this time, she's coming back to work.

[89] She's coming into the office.

[90] She's starting to see, like, one or two clients a day.

[91] And I get a weird text.

[92] from Alice.

[93] And I was like, ooh, look who this is.

[94] It's Alice.

[95] Culty, mean girl.

[96] I open it up and I read it.

[97] Hey, have you heard from Karina?

[98] I was like, no, she's recovering from that accident that she was in.

[99] She's slowly coming back to work, but she's not here today.

[100] Why?

[101] And she was like, because she missed a meet up with friends and were just a bit worried about her.

[102] I was like, oh, well, she has that massive head injury, she probably didn't remember or isn't prioritizing socializing right now.

[103] And Alice never text me back.

[104] That was the end of that.

[105] I'm starting to see Karina regularly now.

[106] Our friendship resumes.

[107] She's back at work pretty much full time.

[108] She's trying to keep her head injury under check.

[109] Again, here I am.

[110] I feel so bad that I doubted her and went behind her back to her boss.

[111] That is something that was really weighing on me. I was trying to be such a nice friend.

[112] We would hang out, and I would see her at work.

[113] I felt bad because she would be, like, shaking, and she just looked like she was really struggling.

[114] A few months go by, and I'm moving.

[115] Me and my boyfriend were getting ready, and all of a sudden, Karina calls me, hysterically crying.

[116] I was like, just let me know what's going on.

[117] Through the tears, she tells me they biopsyed the tissue that was removed from that keyhole surgery that was completed about a year ago, and it came back as cancerous.

[118] She said that she found out today.

[119] I was like, tell me more about that.

[120] She's crying.

[121] She's like, yeah, they biopsyed it, and it came back as cancerous, and I got it going on Friday for chemotherapy.

[122] be.

[123] In that moment, I was like, I got you, bitch.

[124] I fucking got you.

[125] You're lying.

[126] So, little backstory.

[127] My husband, he's had cancer.

[128] I've gone through this process.

[129] I know this process.

[130] I know cancer.

[131] And so for her to be crying, sobbing, telling me she has cancer, and that she has chemotherapy on Friday, I'm like, I wasn't crazy.

[132] you are such a fucking liar and I know that you're lying she's crying she's like I got chemo on Friday I was just like hey you know I've gone through this before you know that my boyfriend has had cancer before it's not my first rodeo I'll help you have chemo on Friday I will go to your appointment on Friday you best believe that and she told me I already called Steve he was driving home with his family my boyfriend is at home and he's like what's happening and I was like I don't know it wasn't even just anger it was more shock confusion a mix of emotions and of course I didn't realize how far spreading or how far reaching her lives were I hung up the phone and I texted Steve hey I heard you talk to Karina and he was like yeah what are you thinking about this I was like we We need to talk on the phone.

[133] And he was like, okay, I can chat tomorrow.

[134] So the next day, I'm anxiously waiting.

[135] Steve calls me. And he's like, how's it going?

[136] How are you feeling about that with Karina?

[137] And I was like, she's fucking lying.

[138] And he's like, chill on the accusations.

[139] She's going through a lot.

[140] Emotions are heightened.

[141] She's probably not processed everything.

[142] And I was like, Steve, I fucking know cancer.

[143] I know how it works.

[144] this isn't how it works.

[145] There's no way in hell some year -old biopsy or some year -old skin tissue is being biopsied and then all of a sudden you are told you have cancer and then on Friday you go in for chemotherapy.

[146] There's absolutely no way that happens.

[147] When my boyfriend went in for chemotherapy and for surgery and everything that came along with it, it's actually uncomfortably slow.

[148] If anyone out there who has been diagnosed or living with somebody with cancer.

[149] You know how painfully slow the process is.

[150] Part of the discomfort and fear is like, just get it out of me now.

[151] You know where it is.

[152] That's go.

[153] And they're like, no, we need to see your kidney function.

[154] We need to see your liver function for chemotherapy.

[155] We need to do all these different tests.

[156] We're going to locate it.

[157] We got to figure out what type of cancer it is.

[158] We got to see if it's red.

[159] We got to make sure your body can handle the treatment.

[160] For her to be diagnosed on a Tuesday and going in on a Friday for chemotherapy, she's fucking lying, Steve.

[161] I was like, Steve, you need to listen to me. Something is seriously wrong.

[162] She's not telling the truth.

[163] And you need to believe me. This whole entire time, my imposter syndrome kept me in check because I kept looking at everybody that I worked with who has master's degrees, PhDs, and I'm this girl who almost flunked out of school and is trying to go and do her undergrad.

[164] I'm seeing everybody who's so smart believe.

[165] this person in this moment talking to see if I was not yelling, but just being like, you don't understand.

[166] You have somebody so dangerous working in your agency.

[167] You need to fucking pay attention.

[168] Seriously.

[169] After I explained the whole cancer thing, he started taking me seriously.

[170] He was like, okay, let me look into it.

[171] Part of me, I'm like, I've heard that before.

[172] But I was like, okay, whatever.

[173] Please fucking look into it.

[174] He said, I have a couple of friends who are knowledgeable in this area.

[175] I'm going to hang up and I'm going to consult with them.

[176] And I was like, please do.

[177] So he hangs up and I start being like, who the fuck am I friends with?

[178] What do I need to do to figure out who this person is?

[179] Actually, at this point, I was like, okay, she lied about the cancer thing, for sure.

[180] I didn't realize what I was about to un -cover.

[181] For a while, I remember Naomi telling me, maybe this is me. Maybe I'm a bad person who doesn't trust people.

[182] And she questioned herself.

[183] Naomi has a great character.

[184] It's to her credit that she would do that, right?

[185] When somebody seemed to be doing strange things, especially somebody who allegedly has had all these tragic things happen to them, she was questioning herself.

[186] So many bad things that happened, was sort of interpreting as, wow, you have faced such bad luck and hardship.

[187] My first thought, and this is in a person who presents as anxious, right?

[188] So you look at them and you'd be like, oh, are you going to do okay with all these bad things that have happened?

[189] These kidney problems with this, falling off your bike, your father being in the hospital, all of these different things.

[190] At the time, I was sort of the lead on the team and I had to think about my human resources.

[191] It's this person going to be able to do this job?

[192] Are they going to stay?

[193] I think that's partly what was distracting me. With this cancer diagnosis after, this has got to be like four or five months later, after she started coming to work again, I was so scared that they liked her so much that they might slip up and give away that I don't believe her.

[194] I just remember going to work the day or two after she told me she had cancer.

[195] I remember sitting in the reception area and these people that I work, with, who I still love deeply to this day.

[196] They came out and I see her.

[197] I'm sure some of the listeners understand what it's like to just have surging anxiety, witnessing pure evil.

[198] This person that I've known for so many years, I'm staring at them and I do not know who they are at all.

[199] I remember watching my coworkers going up to her and they gave her a hug and she's crying and they're crying about this cancer diagnosis.

[200] She came up to me and I went, I'm so sorry and I was trying really hard to channel this sad energy but I was looking at a complete stranger.

[201] I didn't know how dangerous this person was.

[202] I remember giving her a hug, adrenaline coursing through my veins, feeling so nauseous.

[203] I thought in my head while we were interacting, do not show how nervous you are.

[204] Do not show her that you don't believe her.

[205] I was trying to be so sympathetic, but I was so scared at the same time.

[206] I'm Dan Tibersky.

[207] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[208] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[209] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[210] She's like, I can't.

[211] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[212] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[213] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the download.

[214] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[215] Well, you were holding something back.

[216] Intentionally.

[217] Yeah, well, yeah.

[218] No, it's hysteria.

[219] It's all in your head.

[220] It's not physical.

[221] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[222] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[223] Or is it something else entirely?

[224] Something's wrong here.

[225] Something's not right.

[226] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[227] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[228] Follow hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[229] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[230] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[231] I'm Sachi Cole.

[232] And I'm Sarah Hagey.

[233] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time.

[234] the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

[235] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[236] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[237] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real House.

[238] Housewives Hall of Fame.

[239] Follow scam influencers on the Wendry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[240] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[241] Steve checked in with his super smart people and he calls me and he's like, hey, Naomi, it is maybe not true.

[242] He had to look for some HR person to figure out what his rights were because she was working at his agency and he wanted to do everything by the book.

[243] In the meantime, I search up Alice on social media.

[244] I was like, hey, Alice, I just have a couple of questions.

[245] I'm wondering if you would talk to me. Alice wrote back to me. She was super cagey.

[246] She's like, what do you need to know?

[247] And I was like, I'm wondering why Karina moved out of your place.

[248] Could you give me a call?

[249] She was like, yeah, okay, I'll call you tomorrow.

[250] She calls me, and I answer the phone.

[251] and she's super standoffish.

[252] And I was like, look, why did Karina move out?

[253] And she was like, what's going on?

[254] And she wouldn't answer my questions.

[255] And I was like, can I tell you what Karina told me why she moved out?

[256] And Alice is like, yeah, sure.

[257] I was like, she told me she ate your cheese.

[258] And Alice is like, what?

[259] And I was like, she told me that she drank your ginger ale one day and that a couple weeks later she ate your cheese.

[260] and you freaked out and told her to move out.

[261] And she was like, what the fuck?

[262] No, that's not what happened.

[263] And she just unleashes this story.

[264] The memory stands out really clearly.

[265] I was in a new apartment living by myself at this point because I clearly did not want a roommate at all.

[266] I remember she messaged me on Instagram.

[267] She's told me that I came off as really cagey.

[268] and really on edge.

[269] And honestly, I felt that way.

[270] I think at that point, all I wanted was to get the fuck away from anything related to Karina.

[271] And my founders were just huge.

[272] She messaged me and it's like, hey, I wanted to talk to you about her.

[273] What do you know?

[274] And I was playing this dodgy game.

[275] Because there's a level of confidentiality here too, right?

[276] she actually ended up calling me, which helped.

[277] We could hear each other, the tone softened, and in true Naomi style, I think she just was like, you seem really edgy, what's up?

[278] And I think that just kind of broke it, like spilled.

[279] And then we'd started naming things.

[280] And there was always a bit of risk in unpacking this, because what if we named something that was actually true, that was possibly hurtful for the other person?

[281] There was always this hesitancy around naming anything because you didn't want to send the other person or talk about something really painful.

[282] But the more we started to unpack, we both were shocked at the gravity of the web of lies and how calculated it was and how much triangulation had happened.

[283] From Karina's point of view, she had eaten my cheese.

[284] I was pissed off about that and then asked her to leave.

[285] And although I do love the cheese, it definitely was way more complicated than that.

[286] Basically, I had set some boundaries.

[287] I'd been gifted to really nice bottles of wine that you couldn't get anymore.

[288] She had drank all of them.

[289] We had talked about that.

[290] She had replaced them with something else.

[291] And then me not trusting her, I had.

[292] hidden them in my room.

[293] In a very specific spot, from time to time, I would check that they were still there because there was just such a lack of trust in our relationship.

[294] At one point, I am checking on where I've hidden these bottles, and there was two that I was checking.

[295] One was right way up, how I'd put it in there, and the other was actually flipped.

[296] It felt like basically she was saying, I know what you're doing, fuck you, and I'm just going to mess with you at this point.

[297] They weren't open.

[298] She was just letting me know that she knew and she was in control.

[299] Then the behavior continued.

[300] She kept on drinking my stuff, eating my stuff.

[301] I had asked her, can you at least give me the number of your parents?

[302] So if anything happens, I know you're using.

[303] I just need to make sure that I have people that I can call to make sure you're safe.

[304] None of that happened.

[305] So I had had enough.

[306] So it was definitely not just cheese.

[307] It was not a one -time thing.

[308] And the conversation actually went really well.

[309] I was also getting guidance from my own therapist at this time and learning how to navigate this and set limits and also show compassion and empathy.

[310] She totally respected me. She moved out the next month.

[311] I gave her time to do that.

[312] On my end, I felt like we had worked through that.

[313] We kept on being friends.

[314] That's, I think, why the betrayal felt so intense.

[315] Because we kept on hanging out with the group of friends, we messaged.

[316] It felt like the friendship was still intact.

[317] There was more distance, obviously, because some huge violations had happened.

[318] But on my end, I wanted to still have some form of friendship.

[319] Me and Alice are talking on the phone, and I'm starting to come to the realization that I obviously did not know.

[320] the extent of the lying.

[321] I'm comparing things and Alice is comparing things.

[322] We ended up talking about these lies came out.

[323] All the lies.

[324] At least I found out that she told about me and different reasons why she had to miss work in support of me. And I'm saying this with big air quotes.

[325] One that was that my family was part of a cult and there was different religious practices that we had.

[326] My dad had died, which is not true.

[327] very much alive.

[328] She had to drive me to where my parents lived and support me through the funeral.

[329] And it was because we were part of this cult, that it was a drawn out day after day process.

[330] There was other lies about her involvement in my relationship.

[331] The list just went on and on and on.

[332] I think really, really to, A, justify her not being at work and maybe some of the behavior that was coming up around that, and B, to really separate us from anybody in her life.

[333] I know there was a whole kind of cancer scare that she used.

[334] That didn't come into our friend group.

[335] She didn't go there, I think, just because she didn't need to.

[336] She didn't live with any of us anymore, and she could just miss work, and we wouldn't even know.

[337] I know a bunch of tragedies she lied to work about in terms of her grandparents, her parents, and having to fly home and go to funerals.

[338] The list is unending.

[339] I can't even remember all of them.

[340] Do you know if her dad had any heart attacks in the last little while?

[341] She's like, no. He hasn't had any heart attacks.

[342] He like runs marathons.

[343] He's this finance guy.

[344] He's never had a health issue at all.

[345] He's the pinnacle of health.

[346] And I was like, what?

[347] I was like, well, can you think of anything weird?

[348] And she was like, I know that time that her client took their own life.

[349] I was like, what?

[350] And she was like, what?

[351] And She's like a couple months ago, she had a client that took their own life.

[352] And I was like, she never told me about that.

[353] And as somebody who sort of can see the clients on the appointments, that's never happened.

[354] I remember her pulling up the text.

[355] And on the day that Karina sent that text message to Alice and her group of friends from grad school, She got into some minor accident.

[356] When I checked my data back, she got into this bike accident.

[357] She sent Alice and her grad school friends a message saying, Hey, girls, I'm so heartbroken and at a loss for words.

[358] I had my very first client take their own life today, and I feel so lost and so empty.

[359] I just don't know what to do.

[360] and everyone's messaging her in the chat.

[361] Their condolences, they all work in mental health.

[362] They're all therapists.

[363] So they're like, that is so heartbreaking.

[364] I'm here if you need me. And to me, she's telling me, I can't come out because she was biking over this bridge and she fell off and hit her arm in the railing of the bridge.

[365] It hurt too much.

[366] She just wanted to go and chill.

[367] And that was the beginning of, oh, shit.

[368] This is crazy.

[369] For a long time, we had no idea.

[370] Near the end when it all came out, there was definitely some more questioning.

[371] There was definitely some doubt, but it was things so severe that you kind of feel like an asshole for questioning.

[372] That was always the risk, right?

[373] Am I an asshole for even doubting this for a second?

[374] I just think it was so calculated.

[375] it was so well thought out that it wasn't worth the risk because if you were wrong, the shame or the guilt of, I can't believe I'd second guess or checked.

[376] Part of what I wrestled with, too, what if I doubt and what if I question and what if I'm right, how can someone get to the point where they're lying about something so tragic?

[377] What does that mean about what humanity is capable of?

[378] Like, wow, this is so dark.

[379] After the conversation with Naomi, she was updating me on what Karina was doing.

[380] So there was checking in and out of the hospital happening.

[381] There was a bunch of stuff going down, or at least that's what she was being told.

[382] I don't know what was true or not at that point.

[383] At this point in time, she's not showing up for work.

[384] Steve, through her head injury, he was paying her wage in good faith because he was kind.

[385] He consulted with an HR lawyer and they were like, okay, you have the right to not allow an employee to leave work for X, Y, Z amounts of hours for their appointments and she had exceeded that.

[386] And so it was like, okay, you can go to your appointments, but not on company time.

[387] She one day didn't show up for work.

[388] I texted her because at this time, I'm trying to be like buddy, buddy.

[389] I was so terrified because I know this person is not who I think that they are.

[390] I was like, what's going on?

[391] And she's like, oh, I have this appointment.

[392] And eventually, Steve is putting a lot of pressure on her.

[393] She's not showing up for work.

[394] I am frantically trying to cancel clients because she's so sporadic with her attendance at the agency.

[395] I'm talking to Steve and I'm telling him like, hey, Karina didn't show up for work today.

[396] She's saying she has this appointment and she's not allowed to use company time for the appointment.

[397] The walls were sort of closing in on her and she checked herself into a mental health facility where we live.

[398] If you check yourself into a mental health facility or emergency psychiatric care, you cannot be fired.

[399] So she checked herself into a mental health facility and in that time, Steve is no longer able to fire her because she is, under medical supervision, even though we had like all this overwhelming evidence of the time in this facility.

[400] She's calling me, updating me. I'm a lot of the time not answering your phone calls.

[401] I was too anxious.

[402] I think it was talking to Naomi in a meeting room.

[403] And the world spun for a moment when I realized what was going on.

[404] Karina eventually gave up.

[405] She was like, I can't do this anymore.

[406] I'm done.

[407] And Karina admitted what happened?

[408] and she had to involve her parents.

[409] I think that's sort of what broke it all open.

[410] This is this tremendous aha moment where the lights come on and you're just like, this is what we've been going on for almost two years.

[411] When I lived overseas, I met this guy.

[412] And funnily enough, I came back to the States and he was living in her home city and started dating her sister.

[413] So I had this connection to the family.

[414] I messaged him and I was like, hey, I'm super worried about Karina.

[415] What is going on?

[416] And he just messaged me back.

[417] Here's her dad's phone number.

[418] We didn't speak again.

[419] I'm going to call her parents.

[420] Because at this point in time, she's not showing up for work.

[421] Fuck it.

[422] I'm calling her dad.

[423] I was at home, and I dialed the number that my friend from overseas gave me, and her mom answers.

[424] I was like, hello, and she's like, hey, I was like, this might be a bit random and out of the blue, but my name's Naomi, and she's like, oh my gosh, Naomi, of course we know you.

[425] Karina loves you.

[426] Thank you so much for everything that you've done.

[427] And I was like, of course, she's been such a good friend.

[428] me and I'm just calling because I'm really worried about her and I want to check in with you because I would love to be able to support her through this process.

[429] Of course, I'm being a bit fake, but I know this family and I know that they have lots of resources.

[430] I of course also do care about Karina in my own way.

[431] I need to figure this out.

[432] Me and her mom were talking and I was like, yeah, what can I do when she's like, oh, you know, she's in the mental health facility.

[433] We're trying to figure it out.

[434] And I was like, would it be okay if I just asked you a couple of questions?

[435] And she was like, yeah, of course.

[436] I was like, I'm so sorry if this is weird and you don't have to answer any of them.

[437] If you don't feel comfortable, I'm just worried.

[438] And I'd love to be there for her as her friend.

[439] And she's like, yeah, please, no worries.

[440] I was like, has Karina like ever fallen off of her bike and broke her arm?

[441] Her mom's like, no, no accidents.

[442] And I was like, oh, okay.

[443] Did you ever come and visit any time over the couple years that she's lived in our city?

[444] And she's like, no, we haven't come over.

[445] And I was like, oh, okay, I'm really sorry.

[446] Has she had any surgeries on her kidneys?

[447] She says, no, no surgeries, why?

[448] And I was like, oh, I don't know.

[449] I thought she said something about a surgery, but she didn't even seem surprised.

[450] And I said, I'm really sorry if this is triggering or overwhelming to you, but did your husband ever have a heart attack?

[451] She's like, no, he's never had a heart attack.

[452] I was like, do you know if Carina was in a pretty serious accident where she had a major concussion for a couple months?

[453] Nope.

[454] I said, hey, I am really sorry if this is triggering for you or inappropriate or overwhelming.

[455] But I have a question, and I'm asking you permission if I could ask it.

[456] She was like, sure, go ahead.

[457] She was very nice.

[458] And I was like, did either you or your husband's parents, parents die in a car accident and her mom's like, what?

[459] She said that.

[460] And I was like, yeah, she did say that.

[461] They were in a car accident and they died recently.

[462] She was like, they are all still alive.

[463] I just remember being like, oh my gosh, Karina is something else.

[464] Her mom, she wasn't even shocked.

[465] She wasn't even like, oh my gosh, wait, what?

[466] I remember what she said after I asked her all these questions about everything that happened about the surgeries, the heart attacks, the deaths, about the concussions, about the multiple accidents, about just visiting, about her boyfriends.

[467] She said, you know, the wheels fall off like this when she gets stressed.

[468] I can't even deal with it.

[469] It wasn't even like, oh my gosh, that's so crazy.

[470] She must be stressed.

[471] It was like, the wheels fall off like this when she gets stressed.

[472] And it's like, okay, so this has happened again and again and again.

[473] This isn't the first time.

[474] I was sitting on the other end of the phone.

[475] Think of adrenaline coursing through your veins.

[476] My eyes are like twitching and rolling to the back of my head.

[477] The wheels fall off like this when she gets stressed.

[478] I just remember being like, is there anything else that is weird?

[479] that she has told you.

[480] She's like, no. And I was like, is there anything weird that she's told you about me?

[481] Because at this point, I've heard people are like, well, aren't you secretly in a lesbian relationship with her under your boyfriend's nose?

[482] And I'd heard all that stuff now.

[483] And she's like, no, I just know you guys were super close.

[484] I was like, is there anything else about her group of friends where she worked?

[485] She was like, well, I know she had that one friend, a coworker for the sake of confidentiality.

[486] I don't even want to bring up what her mom said because her mom brought up some things about our friends and a couple of people that we worked with that were just so blatantly untrue.

[487] it was shocking.

[488] Those types of things would be career ending for individuals who are so dedicated and they worked so hard to provide the best quality of care for their clients.

[489] I don't even want to dignify what she said because it's just outrageous.

[490] I'm really sorry about the whole situation.

[491] It's so fucked up in so many ways.

[492] Words matter.

[493] And like you said, it sounds like she almost enjoyed telling people these horrific stories just to see their reactions.

[494] I think she enjoys it, the chaos and the attention.

[495] She's a good -looking girl from a decent family.

[496] No one's going to suspect that.

[497] And it's sad that she takes advantage of others.

[498] Because unfortunately, Karina is somebody who has had ample opportunity, ample resources.

[499] to get and receive help.

[500] I can remember it looking like the sympathy she was getting tasted good to her.

[501] You know, if you would say, oh, that just sounds terrible.

[502] I can't believe it.

[503] One more thing in your life, it's been so hard lately for you.

[504] And she would be like, yeah, it has been so hard for me. I'm not somebody who could diagnose exactly what is wrong with somebody like this.

[505] You would want to take that person to a registered psychologist, a psychiatrist.

[506] You'd want to have a huge body of data and a lot of therapy.

[507] And then they could maybe say what the complicated psychology of someone like this is.

[508] But I would definitely say they did seem to really sort of thrive on the sympathy that they would get.

[509] A couple of us tried to make a report where our license is based.

[510] It's complicated, but basically we were given the feedback that we couldn't because we weren't.

[511] clients.

[512] That sucked.

[513] I felt helpless.

[514] And then I heard that she had gone to like a fancy rehab at some point.

[515] And during that period, I don't know what's true or not.

[516] There was a copy -paste message that got sent to a bunch of us.

[517] Honestly, I didn't even read it.

[518] I just didn't have and take what was said with any ounce of sincerity.

[519] It all felt like a ploy.

[520] I wasn't in a space where I could even respond to that.

[521] There's been no contact since then.

[522] I hope she got help, I wish her well.

[523] It's hard, man. But what strikes me so much about her is she's smart enough and she knows there were so many things that I witnessed that were unethical.

[524] and she chose to do that.

[525] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[526] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[527] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[528] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[529] What happens next?

[530] Depends on who you ask.

[531] Was it a crime of passion?

[532] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[533] This was clearly an intentional act.

[534] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[535] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[536] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[537] Everyone had an opinion.

[538] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[539] To end in a mistrial, it's just a, confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[540] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[541] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[542] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[543] I remember when she was house -sitting for our friend Cora, that story is crazy.

[544] She's like, I'm looking after these cats.

[545] They're just so annoying.

[546] they're just shitting everywhere.

[547] And I looked at her and I was like, Karina, are you cleaning the litter box?

[548] Like, that's all you got to do.

[549] She looked at me like I was so stupid.

[550] She looked at me like, scathing, being like, of course I'm cleaning the litter box.

[551] I'm not fucking stupid.

[552] And I was like, maybe they're nervous because their owner's not there.

[553] I remember her texting me. And she's like, I'm literally laying in bed reading my book.

[554] And this cat is shitting on my foot at the end of the bed.

[555] and it's so fucking gross.

[556] Her exact words.

[557] I wrote back to her like, rough, dude, that's tough.

[558] Maybe just check if the litter box is clean, but like, it's going to be fun.

[559] Sorry that you're dealing with that.

[560] They're obviously stressed.

[561] I didn't know what happened after.

[562] She looked after this house.

[563] However, money months later, we all got together after this kicked off and we're like comparing stories.

[564] I remember asking Cora, hey, so when Karina was looking after your house.

[565] and she slams her hands on the table.

[566] And I was like, oh, what?

[567] Because she kept telling me that your cats kept shitting at one point.

[568] They, like, shit on her foot, like on your bed.

[569] She was like, I got home from three weeks vacation.

[570] And there was a seven -inch thick, solidified concrete sludge of kitty litter.

[571] She had not changed that litter box one time, that whole entire time.

[572] that image of Karina sitting in that house and not cleaning the litter box and the cats pooping and peeing everywhere around the house because they have nowhere else to go.

[573] And her texting me, actively texting me about how awful these cats were and how she was doing such a good job when she never did anything is actually one of the most disturbing parts of this whole experience for me. Cora told me not one piece of poop, not one puddle of pee was cleaned up.

[574] There was feces and pee everywhere.

[575] Her house reeked like cat pee.

[576] There was candle wax strewn all over the apartment.

[577] Her Dyson vacuum cleaner was broken in half.

[578] There was like vomit all over the inner part of her shower.

[579] I cannot imagine that scene.

[580] I came to work one day to the agency and Karina comes in and walks into her office and then promptly steps out, like, shocked.

[581] And I looked at her because I was in the main foyer.

[582] I was like, what's up?

[583] And she was like, I think my office was broken into.

[584] And I get up.

[585] I walked over and I opened up her office door and her whole office is completely.

[586] totally torn apart.

[587] There's papers everywhere.

[588] Everything's knocked over.

[589] It looks like a tornado was in there.

[590] But one of the main sort of things that I'll always remember is that there was maranera sauce splattered all over the walls like paint.

[591] I was shocked.

[592] It was destroyed.

[593] I remember looking at her and she was like, oh my gosh, I feel so violated.

[594] She was checking her filing cabinets to make sure they were still locked, which they were.

[595] But it was just like papers everywhere and everything knocked over and then this mariner sauce everywhere so I helped her clean it I thought obviously something happened like a window or something was left open someone came in and was like chilling in there at night as we're cleaning up we're finding alcohol bottles wine bottles we're cleaning and smearing off this mariner sauce she was like oh I feel so violated.

[596] I think it's one of my clients.

[597] I know who it is and she felt sure about it.

[598] I was like, oh, damn, just make sure that window is locked and closed.

[599] Put a piece of wood in it to like reinforce it so nobody can get in.

[600] That's such a fluke accident.

[601] It's so good that they didn't get into the main part or they didn't get into any records.

[602] When she was in the mental health facility, she would call me, I'd get a state number from the facility she was at.

[603] And sometimes I would answer and sometimes I wouldn't because I was so anxious.

[604] This one time I answered, and I was like, Karina, what happened?

[605] And she's like, I was doing drugs.

[606] And I was like, what kind of drugs?

[607] And she's like, Coke mostly.

[608] I was like, can I ask you a question?

[609] You know your office?

[610] You did that right.

[611] And she was like, yeah, I did do that.

[612] And I was like, why?

[613] Why did you do that?

[614] She was like, to be honest, I don't even know.

[615] I just trashed it.

[616] I was like, why did you blame it on a client?

[617] She was like, I was lost.

[618] That was pretty crazy.

[619] I don't remember if Karina said, my office is a mess.

[620] But we all went into the office to see, and it was trashed.

[621] And there was booze in there, and there was all this stuff.

[622] What we thought is a youth client who knew Karina had come in.

[623] I think there was a window that was open maybe and busted into their office and drank in their office.

[624] This is a very strange situation, but it's in the community where the agency is, and it's certainly possible.

[625] But the office was a shambles.

[626] There were papers everywhere.

[627] Like I said, there was multiple bottles of booze.

[628] And we never would have dreamed the true story.

[629] Of course, makes perfect sense in the context of that person had gone there to drink, maybe to flee the roommates or something during the weekend, just to drink by themselves and trash their own office.

[630] That makes so much more sense than the story we had come up with.

[631] She was in a mental health facility, and she understood labor law, and she knew that she could not be fired.

[632] So she quit while she was there.

[633] If she didn't, Steve would have actually been required to create a back -to -work plan for her and scaffold her back to work, which was something I was terrified about.

[634] I couldn't even imagine if she had come back to the office, if I ever saw her again, that was something that was so terrifying to me. she quit and so steve and i went into her office to clear it out we were going through her boxes and there were credit card statements and there were pretty insane charges she was spending a lot of money and come to find out later which actually terrified me she was forging our friends signatures on loans like quick loans as a co -signer so for about a year after the this, I was frantically checking my credit because we were the closest friends.

[635] And if she was going to forge anyone's signature, it's pretty easy to forge wine.

[636] Going through her office, she had hard alcohol, tequila, whiskey, liters of wine.

[637] She had baggies of coke, meth, crack, many, many, many little drug bags with drug residue.

[638] It was wild.

[639] It was a wild time.

[640] I'm incredibly sorry that you went through this experience and I think that the behavior is harmful.

[641] It's unacceptable.

[642] It's damaging.

[643] How do you feel like this impacted you, this level of deceit, this level of manipulation?

[644] To this day, I cannot make sense of it.

[645] I really can't.

[646] I think I understand her personality profile and some of the things she has to be struggling with and battling with.

[647] I really don't understand.

[648] I wish I could sit here and say, my heart goes out to her because she has to be battling some things.

[649] But I'm actually kind of like, fuck you.

[650] You inflicted so much hurt.

[651] I feel like I'm pretty resilient.

[652] I think if I ever am in a manager role, you need to sit down and really contemplate the full context.

[653] of someone.

[654] And if there are things that really just don't add up and they sort of niggle at the back of your mind telling you this doesn't make sense, it doesn't add up.

[655] I think you should continue to be curious and you shouldn't hold on to your assessments of things too tightly.

[656] You should be willing to reassess things because I feel somewhat responsible for not making sense of what was going on sooner.

[657] There's things that I take away from that.

[658] There's learnings.

[659] If you're getting a lot of odd stuff from people.

[660] You should really think about all of it altogether and just see if the facts fit your assessments of things that has affected me and how I do things and how I see people.

[661] I think humans are complex beings and so it's hard to take this very specific situation and say, what can we know?

[662] But I think people who are trusting people go through a school of hard knocks when they first meet people that can't be trusted, right?

[663] I saw this where in our agency we would have really good people who would come into the agency and would want to help people who had a lot of complex problems and they couldn't help but be naive.

[664] And so I think what's important to realize is you just can't trust some people for various reasons.

[665] You should always consider the possibility that someone's being profoundly dishonest with you.

[666] you'll sort of trust but verify at a sooner stage in your relationship and you'll be able to figure that out.

[667] I'll only speak from my experience here, but anytime we go into trying to understand other, it takes us out of our own experience and making sense of our own effect, our own emotions, our own role in that dynamic.

[668] So for me, it's been about not actually analyzing her because who knows if it's accurate or not.

[669] Oftentimes, I think our assumptions about others are not accurate for a number of different reasons.

[670] So my process, how I've worked through this, is really actually to stay with me. For me, it doesn't actually matter what her intention was, what she was getting out of it.

[671] There was some kind of payoff, right?

[672] In the theory that I've been taught, behavior has functioned, and we have manipulating it's doing something for us.

[673] But it's been about coming back to me and really working through the violation, the betrayal, maybe reasons why I missed certain things, not to blame myself for that level of manipulation and what was going on there.

[674] I don't own that.

[675] It's really been about processing my own anger, processing my own guilt and reasserting boundaries.

[676] When I meet someone new, when my alarm bells start going off, I now have this experience.

[677] And I now have to kind of be aware how that shows up anytime I meet someone new, right?

[678] And so for me, it's really been about staying with that and focusing on what's mine and what's within my control.

[679] The severity of what she was willing to tell people.

[680] There was many nights with different groups of us where we'd sit with each other and debrief and be shocked and be angry and reclaim the truth.

[681] That's what it felt like.

[682] We were digging through the nasty layers to get down to what was true.

[683] What did she create?

[684] Where did my reality get warped?

[685] How can we help each other get back there?

[686] It was really cathartic.

[687] There was many nights where we would just go out and talk.

[688] I'm so glad I had Naomi and these other friends.

[689] It was absolutely community and support during that time and putting pieces back into place and just processing what had happened.

[690] I think those nights where we all got together really helped.

[691] I'm a strong believer in community and relationships and connection being a big part of my own healing.

[692] There was a lot of shock initially that someone could act in those ways and just use people in that way.

[693] Shock, a lot of anger.

[694] Honestly, there wasn't a whole lot of grief and maybe that's to come.

[695] Maybe I've let the anger and the boundaries kind of just hold themselves there, but maybe the grief won't come in the severity of her being revealed in that way.

[696] It didn't feel like I was losing somebody that I actually wanted in my life or anywhere near my life.

[697] I think that helped for me. There was maybe a bit of sadness around this false image that I had of her and the different ways that I maintained that.

[698] She manipulated me in maintaining that.

[699] I think it's really affected how I conduct myself when I'm practicing.

[700] I encourage clients to challenge me. I also work very relationally, so this might look different depending on who you are or who you're seeing.

[701] It's really changed how I show up in the room, what I encourage, what dynamic I help create in the room in regards to the power.

[702] And what I hope people get from it is that I hope they feel capable of doing that at the same time, not to create a bunch of doubt and distrust in people out there.

[703] Because I genuinely believe that there are beautiful human beings out there that have very good intentions.

[704] Thank you so much for your time.

[705] I'm welcome.

[706] Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening.

[707] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[708] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production, created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[709] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[710] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[711] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[712] Thank you so much.

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