Armchair Anonymous: Divorce

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous.

[1] I'm Dak Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[3] Hi.

[4] Hi there.

[5] You know, we have a topic that's kind of inherently sad, although some people pretty happy.

[6] Yeah.

[7] In the wake.

[8] In the absence of their marriage.

[9] Yes, some people quite delighted with it.

[10] Maybe everyone on the, well, yeah.

[11] You'll hear.

[12] You'll hear.

[13] You'll hear.

[14] So, of course, the prompt for this episode is.

[15] Tell us about your crazy divorce.

[16] And we got some for you.

[17] None of the stories are Rob, you, or me. None of us have been divorced.

[18] Not yet.

[19] Nope, not yet.

[20] Not yet.

[21] I've witnessed four.

[22] Yeah.

[23] Why not say this now?

[24] I'm reading a beautiful book that was recommended to me. You know, I don't read fiction.

[25] It's been driving me bonkers.

[26] I've been sad I haven't been reading fiction.

[27] Yeah.

[28] But I'm reading a really great book called Demon Copperhead.

[29] Oh.

[30] And it's about a little boy, demon, in Virginia.

[31] Okay.

[32] In the mountains, like in the thicket, right?

[33] With an addict parent and that stepdad and the whole thing, it's so you know how I didn't like hillbilly allergy?

[34] I was like, this is bullshit.

[35] This person didn't witness this.

[36] Yeah.

[37] I'm reading this and I'm like, oh, man. It's like giving me goose pimple chills with that interesting transition the stepdad makes in front of everybody where he was in salesman mode and now the real him is there and the controlling, jealous, all that stuff.

[38] It's so.

[39] But it's fiction.

[40] It's fiction.

[41] But whoever wrote this has seen this.

[42] It's so accurate.

[43] It mirrors Aaron's life a lot.

[44] It really is.

[45] And it's heartbreaking.

[46] This little boy is.

[47] So cute.

[48] That's the lead of the thing.

[49] He's so cute in your head.

[50] Yeah, he's a 10 -year -old little boy and all the shit's coming his way.

[51] But it's fucking really great.

[52] Oh, that's good.

[53] So now you're into fiction.

[54] So next, you should read Candy House.

[55] I like candy.

[56] It's not a bad candy.

[57] And I love houses.

[58] Yeah, so Demon Copperhead by Barbara King.

[59] King Solver?

[60] Yeah, do you know her?

[61] Oh, she's a huge.

[62] Oh, okay.

[63] She's a huge author.

[64] I'm feeling like I just like to discover.

[65] I'm new to Fiction.

[66] Kings lover.

[67] Kingselver.

[68] King's solver.

[69] She's a huge.

[70] Oh, did she have other?

[71] I should read all of her books.

[72] So many.

[73] Yeah.

[74] She's like, I think one of the Pulitzer, I think.

[75] This seems Pulitzer.

[76] I don't know if this thing's wanting words, but the voice is so good.

[77] It's so authentic.

[78] I don't know if she has that history.

[79] Well, here's what I was thinking, because I know it's written by a woman.

[80] Yeah.

[81] I know that.

[82] I don't know her.

[83] I'm embarrassed to say it.

[84] She identifies as a woman that we know of.

[85] Okay, great.

[86] And it's about a little boy, and he does identify as a little boy.

[87] So obviously, I know it's not her story.

[88] But minimally, I thought, I wonder if this author was in foster care and has heard this story.

[89] Or somehow, I don't know how she has this authentic of a point of view.

[90] She was raised in rural Kentucky and then briefly in the Congo.

[91] Oh, we should interview her.

[92] Sure.

[93] Her huge book was the Poisonwood Bible.

[94] That was the one that really got her on.

[95] the scene the poison wood bible did you read that no it's one of those books that like i should have read it's on all the list it's it was a huge book and when 1998 i'm gonna read it that'll be next well i want you to read candy house oh yeah candy houses than that yeah and also some nonfiction in between just to cleanse my palate i got a few cued up the making of the atomic bomb that's just burning a whole of my walls sitting there anyways it has nothing to do with divorce that I'm reading a book.

[96] So please enjoy crazy divorce stories.

[97] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and add free right now.

[98] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[99] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[100] Hard times.

[101] Come and go.

[102] Take them slow.

[103] Remember one thing you gotta know I'm gonna keep on shining.

[104] Hi.

[105] Hi.

[106] Is this Brian?

[107] This is.

[108] How are you doing?

[109] Good.

[110] How are you guys?

[111] Can you hear me on your end?

[112] Absolutely.

[113] What part of the, I'm going to guess, you're somewhere in the South.

[114] No, actually.

[115] I'm up in Connecticut right now.

[116] Oh, you are?

[117] And are you a hunter?

[118] You're wearing a hunter's jacket.

[119] I do a little bit.

[120] Okay.

[121] Like birds, what are we hunting?

[122] Mostly deer, something to fill the freezer, eat what you shoot.

[123] Bow or a gun?

[124] Both bow more recently, just because it's easier to get licenses up.

[125] here.

[126] Okay.

[127] So unfortunately, Brian, or fortunately, we will find out you had a marriage that came to an end.

[128] Yes.

[129] This starts back in about 2018 -ish.

[130] We knew each other in high school, all that.

[131] She had a pretty bad boyfriend back then.

[132] So once they broke up, we got together.

[133] I had just moved out to San Diego with the Navy, and we got into your typical little couple's fights.

[134] And then one night in particular, we were arguing about something to this day, neither of us remembers.

[135] We went to bed mad.

[136] Then I had to get up like 3 .30, 4 in the mornings and had to go into work.

[137] I tried to kiss her goodbye.

[138] Didn't work.

[139] She didn't wake up.

[140] I'm like, okay, whatever, went to work.

[141] She calls me about halfway to work, yelling at me, crying, whatever, like, you don't love me. I'm like, listen, tried to wake you up, didn't work.

[142] So she's yelling at me for about 10 minutes and then we're like, all right, we'll take care of this later.

[143] Hangs up.

[144] I think, okay, whatever, we'll deal with this when I get home.

[145] I get to the front gate and they have these little ID scanners, and they make the noise you expect them to make.

[146] And mine doesn't make any noise.

[147] And the guard kind of looks at me. And he's like, can you pull aside for me?

[148] And it's worth noting at the time I drove a Fiat 500.

[149] He pulls aside.

[150] He's like, hey, man, so your wife called.

[151] And she said you've got a thousand pound bomb in this car.

[152] No. And he's like, do you mind if I take a look?

[153] Fiff around.

[154] Like, yeah, man, sure.

[155] You know, he does a minute -long search.

[156] He's like, clearly this thing couldn't hold a thousand pounds anyway.

[157] He's like, all right, man, so sorry about this.

[158] Go to work.

[159] You're fine.

[160] We'll take care of this later.

[161] Did you call her immediately after you left that guard shack?

[162] Like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

[163] I didn't.

[164] I think it was a mix of it being five in the morning.

[165] Plus, just kind of in shock.

[166] Did that just happen?

[167] Like, before this, I did call a couple of my friends like that.

[168] That really did happen, right?

[169] Yeah.

[170] They're like, yes, a couple of my buddies are over in security, and they're like, yep, they still talk about that one.

[171] So that night, we're like, yeah, probably not going to work for each other.

[172] We went through a couple rounds of unsuccessful couples therapy.

[173] And after that, I had some training to go to in San Antonio, Texas.

[174] Perfect timing.

[175] Right.

[176] So I actually bought a new car because the fiat wasn't going to move everything for me. So I took everything I wanted.

[177] She took everything she wanted.

[178] Were you at that point, how?

[179] to dissolve it or were you sad I guess it's always sad like you could be sad at the sadness that it didn't work out but still very much want to leave yes yes or you could really wish you could work it out but you feel like this person doesn't have it in them too I'm just curious what version it is so at that time I was kind of at the point of sad that the relationship was ending but also like did I dodge a bullet yeah get me out of this but the decision was made very clear a couple months later so I'm in so I'm in so San Antonio doing medical training.

[180] One of the first weekends were allowed off the base.

[181] A couple of us go out to the bars, get an Airbnb, have a little party.

[182] We're like, okay, it's just a couple of us relax and having a couple drinks.

[183] Then my phone rings, and it's my now ex -wife.

[184] I answer the phone.

[185] It wasn't on speaker, but everyone in the room could hear what she was saying.

[186] She's screaming at me, cussing me out.

[187] It just so happened that both of us happened to be drunk on the same night.

[188] After about 10 minutes of that, I just hung up.

[189] And I was like, screw it, phone's going on silent.

[190] We're going to be dealing with this tonight.

[191] So on my way into base the next day, I'm very hungover because we went well into the night, pull up to the gate, and the same thing happens, except the guard turns pretty much white.

[192] He immediately tries to drag me out of the car.

[193] I'm like, dude, what the fuck?

[194] And he throws me up against the side of the guard shack, which is sandstone.

[195] So, you know, whole half the body scraped up.

[196] He's got his gun in my back.

[197] He's like, your wife calls.

[198] and said, you're going to shoot the base up.

[199] She's like, you bought a rifle in the middle tonight.

[200] Oh, my God.

[201] This wasn't smart.

[202] I was hung over and obviously pissed.

[203] And I was like, where the fuck do you think I got a rifle in the middle of the fucking night?

[204] I get it.

[205] It's Texas.

[206] He's like, well, she says you have a gun.

[207] I'm like, well, I do have 50 rounds of ammo in my glove box because at the time I traveled with a pistol in the car going through remote places.

[208] So my pistol was in the armory on base.

[209] but they refused to accept the ammo.

[210] So I'm like, you can take my 50 rounds of 9mm, but I don't have anything else.

[211] So he's still shaking, terrified.

[212] I'm like, oh, my God, this guy's going to shoot me in the back completely accidentally.

[213] Another guard comes over.

[214] We kind of talk it out a little bit.

[215] I'm handcuffed just sitting in the guard shack.

[216] They pull my car aside.

[217] And then their chief for the day comes screaming in lights and sirens.

[218] I'm like, oh, my God, this is not going to go well.

[219] He comes running out of the car and says, get him out of the handcuffs.

[220] We talked to his Navy leadership, and they knew about this and just didn't tell us.

[221] They knew that ex -wife was cuckoo.

[222] A little bit, yeah, because I had warned them when I had gotten there that, yeah, she might call and say some crazy shit, but I'm here, just call me, talk to me. Oh, my Lord.

[223] Oh, my goodness.

[224] Luckily, after that, the Air Force was a little bit embarrassed, so I got a very good lawyer, and now I live with my girlfriend of two years up here in Connecticut and we're having a good time.

[225] There was no alimony, no nothing after that.

[226] Oh, really?

[227] We just clean split and that was that.

[228] Wow.

[229] Did you ever speak to her after that?

[230] This is so irresponsible.

[231] Like you're playing up on this national fears of the shooters and terrorism.

[232] That's awful.

[233] I mean, that is dark.

[234] Like when you're trying to fuck with somebody, that's about as dark as it gets.

[235] We do occasionally still check up on each other.

[236] She is is funny enough with one of my old best friends.

[237] When you're married to military, you get like the health care benefits and everything.

[238] She used the end of her health care benefits to, I think, get the help she needs.

[239] I could see the records, but I've never cared to.

[240] I think that's too much.

[241] But I think she got the help she needed.

[242] She's doing great in her job now.

[243] She went from retail to corporate.

[244] Oh, good.

[245] Yeah, we like that.

[246] Oh, I like your disposition about this.

[247] You sound very forgiving and hopeful that she just is well.

[248] Yeah, I mean, would I ever go back to her?

[249] absolutely fucking not.

[250] But I'm glad that she's not on a downward spiral of doing stuff that nobody would like.

[251] Makes you wonder if the high school boyfriend that was, quote, a dick was really a dick or she was bonkers.

[252] We didn't grow up in the same hometown, but we were close by.

[253] And he's serving in state prison for all kinds of stuff.

[254] Okay.

[255] All right.

[256] Just a bad situation.

[257] Oh, my God.

[258] Yeah.

[259] I don't think to put on my gratitude list, there's no craziness in my life.

[260] For a lot of people, there's a ton of craziness happening, whether it's the dude going to state prison or her out of control, making these, you know, just in general, I don't have that kind of craziness.

[261] And I'm quite grateful for it.

[262] As I imagine you are, too.

[263] Oh, yeah.

[264] Personal life craziness has definitely gone down.

[265] Professional is off the wall, but we'll just take it one step at a time.

[266] Okay.

[267] Oh, man. Well, Brian, thank you for sharing that.

[268] Yeah, it's very nice to meet you and hear this story.

[269] Thank you guys for having me on.

[270] I saw the email and was like, wait, everyone tells me that my.

[271] A divorce was a crazy story, but what?

[272] Actually, my girlfriend now is the one who turned me on to you guys.

[273] Oh, she sounds like a genius.

[274] Yeah, she's a doctor of physical therapy.

[275] Oh, we love that.

[276] PTs.

[277] Yes, she's awesome.

[278] She listens, consumes everything that you two are in.

[279] She told me this morning she was watching Parenthood on the treadmill and actually started crying.

[280] Oh, wonderful.

[281] That was always our goal.

[282] Yeah.

[283] Well, Brian, you seem so sweet.

[284] I'm so glad that you're with somebody that is treating you correctly.

[285] Yes, indeed.

[286] At least not trying to kill me anymore.

[287] That's a good step up.

[288] Ooh, yeah, that can get you killed.

[289] You roll into a situation, people think you're there to kill people.

[290] I mean, that's fucking dangerous.

[291] She probably could have had some criminal charges against her for that, I'd imagine, if you had been inclined.

[292] It's like yelling fire in a crowded...

[293] Maybe worse, yeah.

[294] Yeah.

[295] Yeah, so they did bring up the fact that I could press domestic terrorism -related charges, but I'm like, do I really want to make my case that much more complicated by putting her in a federal prison?

[296] No, you did all the right stuff.

[297] Then she might meet back up with the original boyfriend.

[298] Oh, well, that could be romantic.

[299] She could be a meat cute.

[300] That'd be wild.

[301] You had the boys and girls prison.

[302] They're at the fences, waving and painting on rocks and throwing them over.

[303] This sounds fun.

[304] All right, well, Brian, what's your girlfriend's name?

[305] Her name's cat.

[306] Well, Kat, thank you so much for turning Brian onto the show.

[307] And thanks for crying on the treadmill.

[308] She'll love to hear that.

[309] All right.

[310] Take care, brother.

[311] Take care.

[312] Thank you.

[313] Bye.

[314] She's in the closet.

[315] Well, fuck the closet.

[316] She's in overalls.

[317] And overalls.

[318] Yeah.

[319] I wear this every Monday to work because I'm just kind of like that.

[320] But I have a lot of pairs of overalls.

[321] overalls.

[322] I was like, I bet you Dax is going to say something about this because they're the best clothing choice in my opinion.

[323] Is that Rachel Comey?

[324] No, they're a brand called Huff.

[325] It's like a skate brand.

[326] It's James Comey, the FBI director's line of overalls.

[327] Yeah, you're close.

[328] It's the other comies.

[329] Very close, Monica.

[330] Okay, what name are we going to call you?

[331] Do you have you picked out a stripper name?

[332] No, I was thinking that if you guys had a name that you felt I looked like that could be a fun way to go with it.

[333] Oh, why don't you name her?

[334] I'm going to call her Brie.

[335] Wow, that's such a compliment.

[336] Yeah.

[337] I'm feeling very honored.

[338] Thank you.

[339] Yeah.

[340] First and foremost, just judging a book by its cover.

[341] You do look young to have already been through a divorce.

[342] Yes, this is not my personal divorce, but this is my parents' divorce that involved me, as most parents' divorces do.

[343] So just a little bit of backstory, or I guess I wanted to preface with saying that I kind of went back and forth on whether or not I wanted to say, submit the story in the first place just because there's other people involved.

[344] And then I came to the conclusion after talking to my mom that I did want to share it just because at the time when this happened to me, it was so life -altering and I felt so alone and so scared and I had no tools on how to deal with it.

[345] So if me telling this story could encourage one young person to seek therapy or just talk to a friend about it or even just feel like less shameful about their experience, that would make it worth to me. So that was kind of where I ended up deciding that I did want to tell it.

[346] So not here to put anyone on blast or anything.

[347] That's very brave.

[348] Well, and you know, just words of wisdom from Laura Zee, my mom, she was big enough to tell me, it's your story.

[349] That's actually my mom listens to armchair.

[350] And when I asked her if I could tell the story, she said, well, do you remember that time that Dax was saying that his mom said it's his story to tell?

[351] So she referenced that Oh, wonderful.

[352] Is her name Laura LaBeau, your mom?

[353] You do kind of look like Dax's sister.

[354] Yeah, you do look like Carly's, too.

[355] We could also call you Carly.

[356] I don't think I've ever seen any pictures of Carly.

[357] Yeah, we keep her private.

[358] We keep her in the basement.

[359] Yeah, he kept her locked away in the coal mine.

[360] Okay, so, Bree, walk us through the order of events.

[361] So my parents met when they were like 15 or 16.

[362] They fell in love, got married in their early 20s, immediately started having kids.

[363] So they were kind of their only partners.

[364] I have one older brother, and we just had a really idyllic childhood.

[365] Really grateful for it.

[366] When I went to high school, my mom was the assistant coach of a sports team at my high school, and I was on this sports team.

[367] And she's very much kind of like a Tammy Taylor type of person.

[368] Oh, our favorite.

[369] Everyone loves her.

[370] She wants to take everyone under her wing.

[371] She had a pretty tumultuous childhood herself.

[372] And so she really likes to try and be that parent figure for people who maybe didn't have that growing up.

[373] So she's just the sweetest pee in the whole world.

[374] So with a lot of the athletes that were on this team, she kind of played this extra motherly role for them.

[375] And it was really special and a good opportunity just for me to spend time with her and make friends.

[376] So that comes back later into the story.

[377] But during my senior year of high school, I was the first one in my family to get into a four -year university.

[378] my parents didn't go to school.

[379] So I was super excited about that.

[380] My older brother was just in community college.

[381] And so I was very much, like, removed from a lot of what was going on in my home life and just really excited about starting this new opportunity at college.

[382] And towards the end of my senior year, my dad kind of just was starting to be different, like a noticeable change.

[383] You can just tell something is kind of off.

[384] But I was 16 or 17.

[385] And so I was kind of like, you know, that's not my problem.

[386] Midlife crisis -y.

[387] Yeah, totally.

[388] Okay.

[389] Married his high school sweetheart.

[390] He's like, oh my God, I'm going to die.

[391] My kids are getting old.

[392] I'm not needed as much anymore.

[393] I'm a very independent person.

[394] And I always have been.

[395] And I think that's just a hard transition for a parent.

[396] Yeah.

[397] Yeah.

[398] Yeah.

[399] I was kind of racking it up to that.

[400] Just like we're leaving.

[401] Things are changing.

[402] And he was MIA a lot, but didn't really think anything of it.

[403] And then the summer before I'm supposed to leave, my parents call us into their bedroom.

[404] And my dad is.

[405] just having like a full blown meltdown panic attack.

[406] He's sitting on the bed, just like bawling his eyes out, like hyperventilating.

[407] I probably have never seen him cry in my life at this point.

[408] Oh, God.

[409] My mom's due most of talking because my dad's kind of freaking out.

[410] And she's kind of explaining, but not really explaining that he's going to need some time away.

[411] And he's probably not going to be around as much.

[412] And, you know, we might not know where he is for extended period of time, but everything is okay.

[413] Ooh, not terribly comforting.

[414] This is very traumatic.

[415] I think I'd rather hear, like, your dad's a junkie.

[416] He's got a habit, but, yeah, we got a plan for it.

[417] I'm looking for an explanation at this point.

[418] I'm like, this is so weird.

[419] I'm trying to get answers from them about what's going on, and it's just full stop from him.

[420] He won't talk about it at all.

[421] My mom is very sad, so I don't really want to bother her with my questions.

[422] I'm kind of just trying to avoid the situation with her.

[423] So I started telling my dad, you know, like, if you don't tell me what's going on, I'm going to stop talking to you.

[424] You can't just pretend that things happening.

[425] And that was kind of the point for him where it took a different turn and he just snapped like a rubber band.

[426] He was so pissed about that.

[427] He said, you know, if you don't want to talk to me anymore, I'm fully cutting you off financially.

[428] Oh, my God.

[429] Which was not good.

[430] So at this point, I started school.

[431] I can't get financial aid now because they're still married.

[432] and he won't show up to any of these meetings and attorney things about getting a divorce.

[433] And so I can't apply for financial aid because it looks like I have a two -parent income.

[434] I'm like working and trying to go to school.

[435] My mom is so committed to me not coming home.

[436] She is such a saint.

[437] She said, you know, like, you work so hard to get here.

[438] Over my dead body, you are coming home.

[439] This is not going to happen.

[440] So she's just like working so much.

[441] My first years of college, it's just this very chaotic situation.

[442] Originally, he says we can keep the family house.

[443] and then I come back at Christmas my first year, and that's not the case.

[444] So the house is on the market.

[445] We're having to move my mom into this other small apartment.

[446] I come to find out during that trip as well that all of the money that my parents had saved, our agreement was like, you pay for two years and we'll pay for two years for college.

[447] He took all of that money out of my parents' joint account and spent it on a limited edition Camaro.

[448] Oh, this is very cliche.

[449] This is very cliche.

[450] Absolutely cliche.

[451] That's even more cliche, I hate to tell you.

[452] Hold on one second.

[453] I want to do some fast math.

[454] Okay, was it at 2003 Camaro?

[455] No, it wasn't.

[456] It would have been around like 2012.

[457] Okay, never mind.

[458] I thought maybe he got himself a 40th anniversary.

[459] That would have been so cute.

[460] Okay, okay.

[461] I was just trying to think what commemorative Camaros came out.

[462] Oh, boy, dad.

[463] Okay.

[464] So just pretty classic stuff like that, but it definitely got into this situation where I was refusing to talk to him.

[465] He'd just call me and like cuss me out about random stuff all the time and just like he wasn't acting like himself.

[466] He was such a good dad.

[467] Like I really want to emphasize that it was almost like he had some sort of like chemical imbalance at a point where you're just like I literally don't know who you are anymore.

[468] I'm going to attempt to empathize with your father knowing nothing of what he was actually doing or up to.

[469] This is terrible.

[470] I can relate to the feeling of being sorry and then a little bit of a switch flipping where if you detect the person's going to try to hurt you with this admission or hurt you with this failing that you can get kind of everything feels existential and now you're defending yourself against being attacked it's so wrong i can imagine if you're carrying a ton of shame about something and it's already killing you and then you get some notion in your head that the person's going to try to make you suffer even further for a met that you would get self -protective.

[471] I completely agree with that.

[472] I wasn't the nicest.

[473] I was 17.

[474] You're a recipient of this behavior.

[475] I mean, it's costing you.

[476] I've seen this once.

[477] This is kind of unrelated, but kind of adjacent.

[478] So I had this really good friend.

[479] She and I were laying on the floor of her house watching TV.

[480] The dad came home drunk.

[481] I'd had this amazing relationship with the dad up to that point.

[482] And he came in and he was really at that point somehow, mad we were on the floor like we were cuddling or something which we weren't even doing and he kind of overreacted he told me I had to go home but I thought he was joking because we had this great rapport and then he went into the kitchen and then he like had a drink and then he came out and then he was fucking like get the fuck like he went crazy telling me to get out of there when nothing was happening he was so embarrassed by having done that that he never talked to me then he had one other incidents where I was at their house and he came home early and then he wanted to fight me and she had to get involved and it was like oh man his pride couldn't handled that he had embarrassed himself in front.

[483] I was so fine to get over that whole thing, but I've seen men do this thing where they like quadruple down on their embarrassment or shame.

[484] The quadruple down, that's definitely a theme.

[485] I feel like that runs true in this story.

[486] In between my sophomore and junior year of college, my dad's mom gets diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and it's going to hit her like that.

[487] So kind of all find out and we're also like, we need to go visit grandma because of the way that it worked out my brother and i were not able to go with my mom the same day that she went because our work schedules didn't match up my brother was still talking to my dad at this point because he saw that i got financially chopped and he was like i got to keep talking to him because mom can't support us both so he's still kind of like toes in toes out and he's like dad's driving out there we got to drive with dad and so he was like it's fine just sit in the backseat I will mediate.

[488] I promise I, like, won't let anything happen.

[489] So my dad comes and picks us up this morning.

[490] I haven't seen him in like two and a half years at this point.

[491] And it's been just this battle the whole time.

[492] And we get in the car.

[493] He also, I'm like, is he going to show up in this Camaro?

[494] Yeah, I got to see this Camaro.

[495] And he shows up in a fucking Prius, which is like so anti my dad.

[496] Or I guess used to be when I knew him was very like, fuck electric cars.

[497] I want real motors.

[498] Like he's a big car guy.

[499] Opposite of a Camaro, we could say, minimally.

[500] Yes.

[501] Shows up and I'm like, who is this person?

[502] This is crazy.

[503] We like get in the car.

[504] He's lost a ton of weight.

[505] He like looks great.

[506] He used to have a lot of like scarring from like acne on his faces.

[507] It looks like he's gotten a lot of face treatments done.

[508] Come to find out he's using my mom's health care plan because she's got a great health care plan to get a bunch of shit like that done.

[509] So we get in the car.

[510] Nothing really chaotic happens on that trip, which was great.

[511] but after my mom offers to help my grandpa plan this funeral.

[512] She's very close with my dad's parents still.

[513] So she goes out to the desert and goes to my grandpa's house and is helping him hash out the details for this funeral and she's looking at the invite list and sees this girl's name on the list and has a full -blown meltdown, like on the floor crying, screaming, and come to find out that my dad had been having an affair with one of my mom's asses.

[514] athletes from our high school, and this began while we were in high school still, and I was friends with this individual.

[515] She was in high school.

[516] It's unclear when they're full -on relationship began, but there's text and call evidence from before it was appropriate for that to be happening.

[517] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[518] And so my mom ended up finding this out through like a Verizon account.

[519] My dad had re -registered one of my old cell phones.

[520] And my mom was confused.

[521] She was like, why are there five lines on our cell phone thing?

[522] And he had added another phone to our account and given it to this girl.

[523] Oh, boy.

[524] So she sees this girl's name on this invite list for my grandma's funeral and freaks out then is telling my grandpa.

[525] And my grandpa's like so confused.

[526] He's old.

[527] He's so sad.

[528] The love of his life just died.

[529] My dad had told him that he had met this woman through work and lied about her age and said she was a lot older than she was.

[530] So my mom comes home from the desert.

[531] my brother and I are at home and we don't know any of this still there's still no talk about what happened and she just like fucking goes all out just dropping truth bomb she's like dad did this dad did this like now he's trying to invite her to grandma's funeral so I'm kind of in the corner like fuck yeah mom you go this is crazy I'm so happy you did all this she had printed out all of their text messages and called him to a parking lot at our high school and like chucked him on the like hood of his car and then took his phone and like snapped it in half and threw it across the parking lot and, like, she has a scar on her hand from it, like, ripping through her skin.

[532] So she just kind of, like, lays it all out.

[533] And my brother and I kind of decide that we should still probably go to the funeral because we want to be there for my grandpa.

[534] In the end, we convince my mom to come to the funeral.

[535] And the girl does not end up coming.

[536] The agreement was, like, she can't come if my mom is going to come.

[537] And just kind of been picking up the pieces since then.

[538] How long ago was the funeral?

[539] 2015.

[540] Mm -hmm.

[541] So a while ago now, my dad got married to this girl, and he still denies the fact that their relationship ever happened, even though they're married now.

[542] Oh, boy.

[543] He still has tried to talk to me many times, and I have repeatedly told him I'm more than happy to try and develop a relationship with you, but we got to talk about what happened.

[544] Yeah.

[545] I've got some things I want to apologize for that I did that I'm not very proud of.

[546] And he still is just like, you can't believe everything your mom says, you know, like there's two sides to every story.

[547] say, okay, well, do you want to tell me your side?

[548] And then nothing for four months.

[549] And then he'll reach out to me again.

[550] And happy Thanksgiving or something random like that.

[551] We don't know what caused when they sat you down.

[552] Like what?

[553] Well, that must have been right after she found out, the mom.

[554] No, the mom just found out.

[555] No, she had found out back when we were in high school.

[556] But she didn't tell anyone and she kept it a secret for the whole two years up until this funeral thing happened.

[557] Well, she's probably feeling weirdly protective of the girl as well.

[558] In some ways, yeah, this was definitely a person that my mom had really taken under her wing.

[559] She had a iffy family situation, and so she would come over to our house at dinner a lot.

[560] My mom would drive her places.

[561] She probably didn't have a strong father figure.

[562] Yeah.

[563] So my mom didn't want to ruin the end of my high school, and so she had kept it a secret the whole time because we grew up in a pretty small and gossipy town.

[564] So it was when she saw the name on the list that she got, oh, wow.

[565] She didn't know that they were still together.

[566] And I think that she thought it was kind of just this one -off situation and that it would run its course, but she still didn't want to be a part of a relationship with him any longer.

[567] And so I think that seeing that they are still together really just sent her on to a different wavelength.

[568] Why wouldn't he divorce her?

[569] Yeah.

[570] They separated when I graduated high school.

[571] And it took them until after I finished college to find.

[572] analyze the divorce because my dad just kept dragging it out, which was really a painful experience for my mom.

[573] And that's kind of, I feel like, what I'm most butt -heard about in the end.

[574] We've all been there.

[575] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[576] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[577] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[578] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[579] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[580] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[581] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[582] Follow Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[583] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon music.

[584] What's up, guys?

[585] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[586] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[587] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[588] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[589] And I don't mean just friends.

[590] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[591] The list goes on.

[592] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[593] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app.

[594] or wherever you get your podcast.

[595] This is horrendously complicated.

[596] And of course, you have a loyalty and a love for your mother who was most certainly a victim of this whole situation.

[597] But I'm compelled to tell you one thing, which is there's nothing on planet Earth that is as important to me is this relationship I have with my girls.

[598] You could take everything I ever made, any accol - there's nothing I would.

[599] went and trade to salvage that fucking thing where they look at you and they love you and they trust you it's the most important thing in my life if i did something that threatened that my state of denial the lack of being able to accept oh my god i took this perfect thing you get one shot at it and i fucked it up i can see any number of weird things coming out of not being able to accept that and do the right thing.

[600] I hate to be making an argument for him, but I just know if I had to deliver that news to my girls, I don't know that there could be something worse.

[601] But she's offering a potential comment.

[602] Like, you know, she's saying, we can maybe try.

[603] Yeah, I think where he's not taking.

[604] I think where he's flawed, yes, he's stuck in some weird fantasy where he doesn't have to accept that that happens.

[605] That he took that thing.

[606] You'll never look at him the same way again.

[607] And his lack of being able to accept that and move forward is what's really standing in the way, is my guess.

[608] Yeah, I think so.

[609] I went to a lot of therapy.

[610] This is my plug for if you're in college and you need to go to therapy.

[611] A lot of colleges have free therapy services.

[612] And I would really implore people to look into that because I don't think that I would have gotten to where I got to without utilizing those services.

[613] where I ended up landing was just that two things that are very conflicting can exist at the same time just because he did a bad thing.

[614] It doesn't make him a bad person.

[615] And I can still have this very wonderful memory of the person that I knew and that I grew up with and who was such an incredible father figure to me and also have him completely be a different person now.

[616] The person that I grew up with and who was my dad in my mind, I feel like has passed away.

[617] Like I feel like my parent died.

[618] And that was kind of the way that I was able to get through a lot of the like shame and guilt that I felt.

[619] Yeah.

[620] And now there's just this other person that he doesn't know who I am and I have no idea who he is because he's a completely different person now and it's not really my place to assume anything about him more than I would assume anything about a random person on the internet.

[621] Do you think it's affected your overall opinion or thoughts about men in general?

[622] I would say just about people in general, not necessarily men.

[623] And then the summer that that all went down was when I started like falling in love with the partner that I'm still with now.

[624] And I think that that kind of is a coincidence in some ways, but also was really a good foundational part of our relationship for him to like see me go through that and recognize what I needed in a partner.

[625] I don't think that I'm very jaded from it or anything like that.

[626] And if anything, I feel like it gave me a lot more sympathy and empathy for people and people just kind of like gut reactions to things.

[627] Like when you're backed into a corner and you don't feel like you have any options, you can do some really crazy shit.

[628] Yeah, I think you see the very worst of people.

[629] There's tons of things that happened in my life that wouldn't have happened to me or I wouldn't have felt confident enough to do if I didn't have that happen to me. So I'm really grateful.

[630] And it also gave me an opportunity to recognize how many other really special male figures I had in my life that were available to be a father figure for me. I don't tell this story very often.

[631] But when I do tell it to people, just making sure that people realize that family doesn't always have to be the person that shares DNA with you.

[632] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[633] There are so many other ways that you can get that same relationship without it having to be your bio dad.

[634] Yes.

[635] God, I pray for him that he can figure out how to finally approach you and really own everything that he did and really own with you.

[636] probably the heartbreak he caused himself and you and everyone in his life.

[637] It's definitely a tricky thing.

[638] I imagine having to wake up every day and look at yourself in the mirror and know that you like did and said all of those things to your child.

[639] Oh, God.

[640] Yes.

[641] No. I'm just imagining having his story be mine and how.

[642] Yeah, that's the big nightmare.

[643] You just feel bad for him, honestly.

[644] His mom got a new bow in the stable.

[645] She did get remarried.

[646] And they were married for six years.

[647] And she's currently in the process of separating from him.

[648] Nothing chaotic.

[649] They just weren't the right match for each other.

[650] Sure, sure.

[651] What she's learned throughout the process is that it's really important to be financially stable on her own.

[652] I feel like for her generation, just like being a woman that was taken care of by her partner, she's always kind of been a baller.

[653] She, for a lot of their relationship, made more money than my dad.

[654] but because he would not separate from her and make the divorce final, she was just hemorrhaging her state banks on all the legal fees.

[655] And it really put her in a bad spot when she came out of it.

[656] And so just the financial side of things, I think, is really what hit her the hardest where she's really careful about that kind of stuff now, which was a great lesson.

[657] Sad lesson after learn.

[658] This sucks.

[659] Happy to have learned it in my earlier years because it's easier to fix when you're young rather than be 50 and be like, oh my God, I don't have any money in a retirement account.

[660] Yeah, yeah.

[661] Oh, yeah.

[662] Oh, man. Well, Bree, that was a very heartbreaking story.

[663] Yeah, I wish I could have shared like a fun poop story with you guys.

[664] No, no, no, no, no. You're right.

[665] It will be helpful for so many people.

[666] Well, look, 50 % of relationships end in divorce or whatever it is.

[667] It's not like this is unique.

[668] And then of that 50%, I imagine half have infidelity to do with it.

[669] You know, it's all copy.

[670] Yeah, not to quote our own stupid tagline, but, you know, it's messy business being adult.

[671] You get through the whole ride and not fucking break a ton of eggs.

[672] You really touched a bullet.

[673] I wasn't surrounded by too many people that didn't break a lot of eggs.

[674] It's a tricky situation to be, and that's for sure.

[675] But there's light at the end of the tunnel.

[676] If you can get through it, reach out to people that care about you and just know that this is not going to be a defining thing in your life.

[677] I feel like that was a sticking point for me. And I was like, this is going to always be the first thing that people think about when they think about me. And that was really hard for me to get over that people are going to think of me as somebody whose dad would be considered a predator by a lot of people.

[678] And I had a really hard time coming to terms with that.

[679] Well, you do feel for so long that your parents are a reflection on you.

[680] And they're not.

[681] But we all feel that way.

[682] Yeah, but there is a level of cruelty in there of your identity.

[683] you feel is marred by somebody else's actions.

[684] It feels unjust.

[685] That feels really wrong.

[686] Especially when you're a kid and you don't really have anything to define yourself as.

[687] You're like, I just went to school and got good grades.

[688] My whole life is just wrapped up in being a part of my family.

[689] I didn't have anything to really hang my hat on is like, this is who I am and what is important to me. But then as you get older, you have your own passions and you find your own niche.

[690] And it just becomes so irrelevant.

[691] as time goes on and I never, ever thought that I would get to a point where I felt like it was irrelevant.

[692] And I just want to make sure that if other people are going through it, that they know that they can probably get to a point where it doesn't seem like it's that bad and as big of a deal any longer.

[693] Yeah.

[694] Well, so nice meeting you.

[695] Thanks for your honesty and vulnerability.

[696] We love this.

[697] So don't think it was a downer.

[698] This is why I love your guys' podcast.

[699] I mean, I'll say like listening to stories about people pooping themselves.

[700] That's absolutely Who doesn't?

[701] Yeah, it's good to pepper those in.

[702] You guys are always so willing to be vulnerable with your guests and your guests always bring that same energy back.

[703] And so I felt like it was the least I could do to the arm cherry world to bring that energy here as a little anonymous person.

[704] Thank you.

[705] Thank you so much.

[706] Really appreciate it.

[707] Tell your mom we love her.

[708] I will.

[709] Also, Monica, I did want to tell you, my best friend and I listened to Race to 35.

[710] We're in our late 20s.

[711] and she wanted me to tell you specifically that she loved it so much and thank you so much for doing it and we don't have anything to do on Wednesdays now.

[712] Oh, we're going to change that.

[713] We're going to change that.

[714] We're very dependent on it.

[715] I drink my morning tea and listen to you guys.

[716] That's really sweet.

[717] Wonderful.

[718] Well, nice meeting you.

[719] It was very nice to meet you guys.

[720] Enjoy the rest of your day and thanks for letting me share.

[721] Okay, take care.

[722] Bye.

[723] Oh, there's two.

[724] Who's waving?

[725] I'm Jenna.

[726] Hi, Jenna.

[727] but who was waving?

[728] Oh, that's Lisa.

[729] So she is my closest friend, and she loves you guys so much, and she was helping me past time because I was nervous waiting.

[730] Okay, that's fair.

[731] That's fair.

[732] It's not every day that you get in your closet and chat with two folks.

[733] About divorce.

[734] About divorce, no less.

[735] Where are you at in the world?

[736] I'm in Denver.

[737] Oh, the mile high.

[738] Yeah, and you were just in bail, right?

[739] I was just in your great state.

[740] Enjoying the winter's splenest.

[741] Do you ski?

[742] Yes, I love skiing, but I was in El Salvador celebrating my 50th birthday.

[743] Oh, my God, congratulations.

[744] What happens in El Salvador?

[745] You go to a surfing and yoga retreat for a week.

[746] Oh, this divorce has been great for you.

[747] I don't even know the details, but if you're surfing and yoguing in El Salvador, cut to the end, it's all good.

[748] So what year did this divorce happen?

[749] So we're going back 10 years.

[750] Okay, great.

[751] So 10 years ago, I was living in Chicago.

[752] My ex -husband, I call him the was -been.

[753] Oh, I like that.

[754] We had been, like, kind of drifting apart.

[755] Something seemed weird to me. I couldn't put my finger on it.

[756] He was traveling a lot for work.

[757] How long had you been together?

[758] A long time.

[759] So we got together in college.

[760] So I was 19 when we started dating and got married at 25, like way too young.

[761] Okay, so good 15 years married?

[762] Yeah.

[763] That's a long time.

[764] Yeah.

[765] And things were good for a long time.

[766] But he was talking about these consultants at work a lot.

[767] I don't know.

[768] It just like spighty senses went off.

[769] And so I did a little digging.

[770] And I'd never done that.

[771] I trusted him like completely.

[772] But the first thing I thought was, oh, we share this open table.

[773] You know, like make reservations at places.

[774] So I look at open table.

[775] There are like 20 reservations over a year for two people.

[776] And they're at really nice restaurants in Chicago that, like, I had not been to, confronted him with it.

[777] It was like, okay, these are all for two people.

[778] They're like at really romantic restaurants.

[779] He denied it up and down.

[780] He's like, you know, everyone knows I'm a foodie.

[781] These consultants are in from out of town.

[782] So they ask me and I make reservations for them.

[783] So he's still saying he's not going.

[784] Right.

[785] Just out of the kindness of his heart making reservations.

[786] It's kind of like a concierge.

[787] he's denying it i don't have any other proof i'm gonna just let it go and just try and work on my marriage but to like about six months later the husband we'll call him tony tony was in paris for business and this is back in the time when we still have a home phone number so i come home and there is a crazy voicemail and it is from a husband So this man calls, and we'll call him Quentin.

[788] Okay, so Quentin calls.

[789] I love your names.

[790] Can I just say, you're showing a lot of creativity with the names.

[791] Thank you.

[792] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[793] Quentin leaves this unhinged voicemail.

[794] It starts out directed towards Tony, but then he's like, Jenna, baby, I just came from therapy with my wife, and I heard some shit about your.

[795] bend, it would blow your mind.

[796] And then he hangs up.

[797] Does he leave a return number?

[798] Like, is he expecting you to call him back?

[799] No, but I can check, obviously, call her ID.

[800] I call immediately.

[801] Oh, wonderful.

[802] Not answering.

[803] So I had this idea, okay, well, this must be somebody that Tony worked with.

[804] I knew his last name.

[805] So I asked for someone with the same last name.

[806] Quentin's last name.

[807] Yeah, and it was Tarantino.

[808] Quincy's wife is named Stephanie.

[809] I asked to speak with her, she picks up her phone at work, and I said, this is Jenna.

[810] And she knows exactly what I'm talking about.

[811] Yeah.

[812] So before you make this call, have you rehearsed in your mind what you're going to say to her?

[813] No, I literally called right away.

[814] I just needed to know.

[815] I couldn't get a hold of Tony.

[816] He's in Paris.

[817] So I call her.

[818] And I said, I just got a really interesting phone call from your husband and she's like, you know, he's a really angry man, but just know that this was just an emotional affair.

[819] Nothing happened physically.

[820] We definitely were leaning on each other.

[821] Tony was her supervisor, okay, like direct supervisor.

[822] Yeah, not ideal.

[823] She won't admit that there was anything physical, but says, yes, they had this emotional affair.

[824] I finally get a hold of Tony and Paris.

[825] He's like, okay, I'm coming home.

[826] This guy's unhinged.

[827] He's blaming the husband.

[828] not admitting anything.

[829] When he comes home, he's acting very weird, very strange.

[830] I look through his briefcase.

[831] He has all these receipts that he's kept.

[832] And, like, one of them says, like, possibly the most romantic restaurant in all of Paris.

[833] So he had been to Paris and London with another woman.

[834] He was there with someone else.

[835] Oh, okay.

[836] A third party or a fourth at this point.

[837] This is a serial situation.

[838] Exactly.

[839] Yeah.

[840] I find out through, like, looking at all these receipts, they had been in London together during this trip.

[841] They took a little ride on the London eye together late at night.

[842] Like, you can see what time it is.

[843] So I confront Tony with all of this info, right?

[844] And he is like, she's just a consultant at work.

[845] We've become really close.

[846] Never would admit a thing.

[847] So meanwhile, Quinton decides he is.

[848] going to break up my marriage.

[849] He wants us both to suffer.

[850] He had a lot of anger towards me. What do you chalk that up to?

[851] I think he's just unhinged.

[852] I think he was very angry.

[853] So he makes it his life mission from like that point on to start harassing me. It was mostly to me. Weird.

[854] So strange.

[855] You can use an app to send anonymous text.

[856] And I was getting all kinds of like anonymous texts.

[857] But I knew they were from him.

[858] because sometimes they were like, you need to leave him.

[859] He's a loser.

[860] You'll be able to find somebody.

[861] But sometimes they were focused more on me and my kids.

[862] He knew stuff about my life that felt really creepy.

[863] Yeah.

[864] But then he was doing stuff that was kind of funny.

[865] Like, have you guys ever heard of the Stiboris?

[866] No. I know about Sybaris.

[867] Wobby Wob knows.

[868] He just piped in.

[869] Wobby Wob knows about Sybaris.

[870] It's a sexy hotel.

[871] Exactly.

[872] Seedy sexy hotel.

[873] Oh.

[874] Like they have pools.

[875] in the rooms.

[876] Oh, okay.

[877] Rows.

[878] Yeah, humid.

[879] Right.

[880] So Quinton decides to start sending my house brochures for the cibiris.

[881] Oh, my God.

[882] Oh, my God.

[883] Quentin.

[884] They're all addressed to Amy and to Tony.

[885] That somehow they're like living at my house.

[886] I don't know.

[887] It's not very well thought out.

[888] Right.

[889] And some of them were really mean.

[890] Like my ex -husband has glaucoma, so he's got some eye stuff going.

[891] on and he was sending stuff for like school for the blind oh my this guy like uh playground stuff he would go from like really immature crazy stuff to like really unhinged scary stuff he sent jehovah's witnesses to the door one day to cleanse your soul of this yeah exactly right are they staying together or quentin and the other gal yeah now i feel worse for her than him like he tipped it yeah there's like needs to leave him he's crazy yeah by now i've kicked tony out the marriage is over, and he is staying together with Amy.

[892] Apparently, Quinton doesn't realize this.

[893] Wait, Amy is from London?

[894] No, the receptionist.

[895] No, Stephanie is the receptionist.

[896] Oh, okay.

[897] It's so complicated.

[898] I know you guys.

[899] It's too much.

[900] Wait, Amy's the London girl.

[901] Yes, and to this day, Tony and Amy are together.

[902] Got it.

[903] Yeah, and so Tony, who is 52 now, has a little four -year -old.

[904] They never got married, but they lived together.

[905] And actually, Amy is a lovely human.

[906] Like, I really like her.

[907] That's nice.

[908] Yeah, that's big of you.

[909] So Quentin stays with his wife, but he's still crazy.

[910] When you told Tony, it's time for you to move out, did he ever admit to everything?

[911] Or did he used to go like, okay, now I guess I'll leave.

[912] He, to this day, has never admitted to anything.

[913] He never even apologized.

[914] Oh.

[915] Do you believe that there's a chance?

[916] that it was just emotional with all these people?

[917] It definitely was not with Amy, the woman that he was in London and Paris with, no. There's evidence.

[918] If you take the London eye ride, you're fucking afterwards.

[919] I hate to say it.

[920] You know, you took that with Lincoln and it did not look sexy.

[921] It looked really silly.

[922] Okay, don't bring the children.

[923] I'm just saying.

[924] I just like right out of a movie.

[925] They go to London and get on the London eye.

[926] I don't know.

[927] So I got divorced and moved to Denver.

[928] But obviously you still have a relationship with him because you have children together.

[929] Yes.

[930] And we call parent well.

[931] He's a good father.

[932] Camel, can I ask now 10 years after the fact, which is a long time, do you think it might have been a blessing?

[933] Do you think maybe that you got out of something that in the absence of cheating you would have stayed in forever?

[934] Maybe you're happier now.

[935] Is that okay to ask?

[936] Yeah, of course.

[937] I was like on the floor of this closet for a little while when I first moved here.

[938] But no, I am so much better off.

[939] And I think we were starting to grow apart anyway.

[940] Who knows if we would have stayed together.

[941] I mean, the funny thing is, is like if he had just admitted everything, we went to couples counseling, but you're not telling the truth there.

[942] I say this kind of often, and I truly mean it, if two human beings figure out how to stay together for 15 years and make babies, this is a very successful union of two people.

[943] It truly is.

[944] I'll see people get divorced and they've been married 20 years and people say something kind of negative.

[945] And I'm like, you know, you go live with someone for 20 years.

[946] If you can do that, that's a huge accomplishment.

[947] It's not easy.

[948] I don't understand the shame of something having worked for some nice long period of time and then not at some point.

[949] That doesn't seem embarrassing to me. It's a success if it's forever and it's not.

[950] Right.

[951] If that's how we're measuring it.

[952] Yeah.

[953] Yeah.

[954] No, I don't consider it like a failed marriage at all.

[955] You know, there were a lot of good years.

[956] I'm dating someone lovely now and he's really kind.

[957] and braid and I'm happy.

[958] I really am.

[959] And I got to do things I wouldn't have done with Tony.

[960] It was time for us to separate, I think.

[961] Well, that's the other thing is if you guys met in college, like, I love Bree.

[962] Bree.

[963] Bree's the most wonderful girl ever.

[964] We didn't change in the same ways at the same pace.

[965] To make it from 21 to life, I don't know.

[966] When people do that, I'm blown away because there's so many iterations of yourself between 20 and me. I'm approaching 50.

[967] It's like, I don't know what version would have worked for you in me. I don't know.

[968] Exactly.

[969] Yeah, in some ways, these things, they almost give you an out.

[970] That's like a weird thing to say.

[971] But in these relationships that have been going on for so long, I know I have a lot of friends who are with their high school sweethearts.

[972] And they're all doing great.

[973] But unless one of them does something actively wrong, I just see those relationships staying.

[974] Does that mean they're going to be the most fulfilled version of themselves?

[975] I don't know.

[976] Well, marriage has the, yes, it has the illusion of safety.

[977] And so we think we should protect the safety at all costs.

[978] And we don't really make it relative to your one little trip on planet Earth.

[979] Right.

[980] That may sound like I'm urging people to get divorced, but I'm not.

[981] But in truth, you know, you're really prioritizing one thing.

[982] thing, which would be like, the most important thing is that I stay with this person I committed to, even if it's at the cost of a life I don't really want.

[983] I definitely am pro having the life you want.

[984] Yeah, I got to do that.

[985] He obviously had to agree to let me move here.

[986] It's not ideal to take your kids away from where their dad is living, but he actually had a better relationship with them after because he was intentionally coming here once a month, spending good time with them yeah scheduling i'm going to give you my full attention yeah yeah tony's a workaholic it sounds like maybe oh yeah yeah no he has a little four -year -old to chase after and i'm like my kids are ones in college you're in surfing and yoga yeah exactly jena does appear that you're very happy and have landed on your feet i'm sorry to then happen to you of course getting gaslit is never a good time that's the part that It sucks.

[987] Obviously, I could have done without the, like, drama of being harassed by someone.

[988] Yeah.

[989] But I think in the end, I'm way better off.

[990] Yeah, any updates through the Great Vine about Quentin and Stephanie?

[991] And Stephanie.

[992] Supposedly, they're still together.

[993] Oh, great.

[994] Yeah.

[995] And, you know, there were actually some rumors going around that Tony has not been especially faithful to Amy, his partner now.

[996] That is often the case.

[997] Oh, no. Not my problem.

[998] Yeah, not your problem.

[999] There's a saying in AA, which is a drunken, horse thief sober, is still a horse thief.

[1000] Oh, wow.

[1001] So you can kind of like clean up one side of it, but, you know, if you're a horse thief, you're a horse thief.

[1002] I don't know.

[1003] I don't know if that applies or not.

[1004] Well, Jenna, it was great meeting you.

[1005] If we get in a pinch and we need someone that's great at renaming people, I want to keep you in the roll of decks.

[1006] My God.

[1007] pleased you yeah you made it very colorful all right well good luck to you it's been such a pleasure talking to you you too all right take care guys all right bye bye she made lemonade out of some lemons she did i mean took 10 years but yeah yeah but we don't know how many of those you maybe right one maybe one mom she said it took four days maybe five times wow wow heavy topic that one was heavy but it's life you know yeah life is complicated two people getting together.

[1008] 50 % that people can relate to this.

[1009] Probably more.

[1010] How about this?

[1011] I've been through four divorces.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] Mom and dad.

[1014] Yep.

[1015] Dad and Tammy.

[1016] My dad got remarried and then divorced.

[1017] I don't think I knew that.

[1018] Oh my God, welcome to the party.

[1019] Maybe I knew that.

[1020] Maybe not.

[1021] I don't hear much about Tammy.

[1022] I know.

[1023] I don't even really remember how long.

[1024] Because again, I only saw them every other weekend.

[1025] But they got divorced.

[1026] They got divorced.

[1027] How long?

[1028] That's what's curious to me. I don't know if they were married for maybe two years it was not a long thing okay so those two and then Greg and mom and then Rick and mom yeah I got to watch four of these things go down yeah but so far so good with you yeah that's right no divorce that's right I have no divorces I know you've never been divorced nor have you had parents that divorce I mean for better or worse okay all right love you glad you're not divorced I'm glad I'm not divorced Rob congratulations you're not divorced and And for everyone who's divorced and loves it, also congratulations to you.

[1029] Yes.

[1030] Don't worry about what people think.

[1031] Don't bring that into the pros and consuls.

[1032] And don't not get divorced if you need to get divorced.

[1033] Right.

[1034] And go to counseling if you think you can make it work.

[1035] And go to college and also don't.

[1036] Yes, pay your taxes and eat well or don't.

[1037] I love you.

[1038] Love you.

[1039] Do you want to sing a tune or something?

[1040] I know a theme song.

[1041] Oh.

[1042] Okay, great.

[1043] We don't have a big song for this.

[1044] new show so here I go go go we're gonna ask some random questions and with the help of armcherry's we'll get some suggestion on the flyer rhyme dish on the flyer rhyme dish enjoy follow armchair expert on the wondry app amazon music or wherever you get your podcast you can listen to every episode of armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining wondry plus in the wondry app or on apple podcasts.

[1045] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.