Erin Lee Carr Returns (documentarian of Britney Vs Spears)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, expert.

[1] I'm Dan Lee Carr.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Lee Carr.

[3] And of course, our guest is the one and only, our mother, Erin Lee Carr.

[4] And I'll repeat.

[5] Oh, yeah, she's back again.

[6] We love her.

[7] We love her.

[8] We love her documentaries.

[9] And she has one that is very tasty, very, uh, debate inspiring.

[10] Oh, it's tasty.

[11] Very relevant.

[12] Very relevant.

[13] She's a film director, a writer, and a producer.

[14] You loved, I love, I love.

[15] You Now Die, or at least I did, at the heart of gold, Mommy Dead and Dearest.

[16] And her new tastiest one yet, Brittany versus Spears on Netflix.

[17] It's fantastic.

[18] We loved it.

[19] This was such a fun chat.

[20] It was.

[21] And I just adore Erin, and I can't wait until she comes back with another one.

[22] Same.

[23] Keep working, Aaron, and enjoy Aaron Lee Carr.

[24] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[25] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[26] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[27] Aaron Lee Karr, can you hear us?

[28] Yes, I can.

[29] Oh, there she is.

[30] There she is.

[31] Let's just take her in for one second, Monty.

[32] Taking her in.

[33] Got a cute little ball cap on with a bee on.

[34] It stands for boner time.

[35] Yes.

[36] What does it stand for?

[37] What do you think it stands for?

[38] What are we here to talk?

[39] about today.

[40] It's Bitney, Britch.

[41] I'm so excited to talk about this.

[42] Me too.

[43] Did it cross your mind to use my catchphrase?

[44] It's Bitney Britch as the title.

[45] It did.

[46] It did.

[47] I was worried that someone else was going to take it.

[48] So I had to sort of stay away from it.

[49] But ultimately, we went with the old what it is.

[50] It's Britney versus Spears.

[51] It's a clever title.

[52] It is really good.

[53] not quite as clever as yours almost well I've already got it planned when she eventually is a guest on the podcast I would like to entitle the episode It's Bitney Bridge Okay That's my game putting that in the chamber And it's you know what it's like Aaron If you get a great title like you just You really want to see that thing Have a use Hell yeah Like I love you now die Sheila Nevins my mentor And the head of HBO docs for 40 years Came up with that And I was like you guys I can't be the director I love you, now die.

[54] And she's like, tits, it's the title.

[55] And I said, all right.

[56] Good for her.

[57] Because you know what?

[58] That title rules.

[59] It sums up the entire fucking thing in a very provocative way.

[60] For anyone that's not seen it, you got to see that.

[61] That's one of my favorite docs.

[62] It's so good.

[63] You really slam dunked it, Aaron.

[64] Thank you.

[65] Yeah.

[66] Really quickly, what's happening in your life before we launch into Britney v. Spears?

[67] I was on this project for two and a half years, and I was completely, addicted to my phone because it was happening at all times, all hours.

[68] And so I'm finally like taking a breather, sleeping.

[69] I'm headed to Mexico with my best sober pal to do some manifesting for the year ahead.

[70] Oh, wow.

[71] Like just feeling happier and lighter, I would say.

[72] Yeah.

[73] What have you reduced your phone use to if I could get specific?

[74] Eight hours versus 14.

[75] Okay.

[76] Okay.

[77] All right.

[78] Well, that still seems I think you guys are also on your phones for that many hours.

[79] Come on.

[80] Yes.

[81] I guess I could look right now.

[82] What's the thing you, there's a way to look, right?

[83] It's the phone usage.

[84] Me and my boyfriend checked and compared ours last night.

[85] Oh, my gosh.

[86] So where do I go, Aaron?

[87] Settings.

[88] Yeah.

[89] It's like, let me figure it out.

[90] Oh, screen time.

[91] Yeah, exactly.

[92] Oh, turn on screen time.

[93] Okay.

[94] I apparently pick up my phone 150.

[95] six times a day.

[96] So that's the number.

[97] Gosh, wow.

[98] Oh, I'm going to turn mine on because now I'm curious.

[99] Yeah, it's horrifying.

[100] I every Sunday look at it and get depressed about what my life has become.

[101] Okay, so my daily average is zero minutes.

[102] Me too.

[103] So not too bad.

[104] Oh, my God.

[105] We're doing pretty good.

[106] Not too shabourini.

[107] Wait, I have a question.

[108] So you can turn off now a little bit.

[109] But can you ever?

[110] Because now you're invested and stuff's still happening?

[111] Like, can you remove yourself from this for the rest of your life?

[112] I mean, it will be a story that I focus on literally yes is that for the rest of my life.

[113] We use a app called Signal to message back and forth on the project and it would come in at 8 o 'clock, 9 o 'clock, 10 o 'clock, 1 o 'clock.

[114] Like, it was just, it's always, so then I got fearful of Signal and what was happening and now it's been dormant.

[115] Like, people are trying to fish me and try to figure out what was going on in the Brittany case.

[116] I had to move my emails.

[117] It was just, I had to deal with a level of paranoia that I've never dealt with before.

[118] Well, really quick, it seems quite obvious that you're a supporter of the free Brittany movement.

[119] So who would be coming after you?

[120] Like, who's incentivized to not like you?

[121] I mean, in the Britney Spears world, everyone is a suspect, including members of the media.

[122] And there were rumors floating around that my project would be pro -conservatorship, which was always pretty confusing because I didn't know really what that was based in, but it would be potentially the people that govern Brittany and what's going on with her, and they knew that I was making it because I had sent outreach to them, or it could be people that think I'm making a pro -conservatorship, like, movie.

[123] I mean, I would get Instagram DM saying, I have this thing on Britney, you need to read, da -da -da, and it's really fishing.

[124] I'm trying to get in my computer.

[125] And so I had to meet with a like a digital specialist.

[126] They were tracking what things were being said and just being, you know, trying to be careful.

[127] I need to learn about fishing.

[128] What if someone's fishing in my computer?

[129] Oh, I'm already in.

[130] For armchair secrets.

[131] I'm already in.

[132] I'm like, click this link to see our fun trip.

[133] Yeah.

[134] And then I own your computer.

[135] Oh, my God.

[136] Okay.

[137] Okay.

[138] Okay.

[139] Well, here's what I think is consistent about what happened to you.

[140] Anytime you join a movement that is really, for lack of a better word, fanatical, right?

[141] In all the ways that we would think of what fanatical means.

[142] I think fan is a derivative of a root word.

[143] A root word.

[144] Just say root word, okay?

[145] Well, there's a derivation.

[146] I don't know.

[147] There's a better word.

[148] Anyways, the point is...

[149] We've gotten worse at this errand since the last time you came.

[150] Yeah, can you tell?

[151] No, this is, come on.

[152] You guys have just gotten better and you know it.

[153] Come on.

[154] Stop fucking foe bragging.

[155] What is it?

[156] See, I can't even, humble brag.

[157] Humble brag.

[158] Okay, let's start from scratch.

[159] When your bedfellows are fanatical about something, to me, it also, it swerves into like, I'm liberal, but it's dangerous to be liberal because someone's always trying to out liberal you.

[160] I know in religion, I'm going to out religion you and stuff, but anytime you're getting into something really where people are passionate, I feel like at some point people's identities, they want to prove that they are even deeper in than someone else.

[161] So it's just kind of ripe for conflict.

[162] I have never seen such an active fan base as the people trying to get Britney free.

[163] And their instances literally, they were ringing the alarm bells before any of the media were there.

[164] They really pushed this into the national conversation.

[165] But then you have people who are trying to root people out or badmouth people or conspiracy theory or where the money go.

[166] and I'm not trying to be dismissive at all.

[167] I was trying to take in all the goodness that this movement had been pushing forward with still having my skeptic hat on, my journalist hat on, and just trying to understand.

[168] The Brittany hat on?

[169] Yeah.

[170] I made this for the whole crew, and so it's like a secret Britney hat.

[171] It's cute.

[172] Oh, it really is.

[173] It looks like an eight ball kind of a little bit.

[174] Yeah.

[175] Yeah.

[176] It's kind of a double purpose, a double wammie, a double entendre.

[177] Mixed messages.

[178] I see to Supreme.

[179] Aaron, what do you think it is that made you?

[180] I mean, in the documentary, which, again, let's just start there.

[181] I fucking loved it, of course.

[182] I watched it the second it was dropped.

[183] Second, I was emailing you already.

[184] I have way more questions.

[185] But you kind of go into it a bit in your setup of it, which is like you had Britney Spears posters on your wall.

[186] And I want to know what's the appeal.

[187] I didn't have Britney Spears posters on my wall.

[188] So I want to know what it is about fans of Brittany, maybe that she represents for them.

[189] them or what is she doing that makes you feel safe as a kid with that poster?

[190] What was happening psychologically with her?

[191] Monica, did you have, did you like Britney growing up?

[192] I did.

[193] I loved her.

[194] She was my first concert.

[195] Oh, wow.

[196] I didn't know that.

[197] Yeah, she was my first concert.

[198] I think because she was so young while I was so young.

[199] Like, it was like, oh my God, this is kind of someone relatable.

[200] It's like the real life Disney show with Miley Cyrus.

[201] Yeah.

[202] Hannah Montana.

[203] The real life Hannah Montana.

[204] Yes.

[205] We felt like we grew up with her a little bit more than in another pop, like Jana Jackson or something.

[206] Right.

[207] And it's exactly that.

[208] So I can go, Monica being our prime example, but I can go into any room and people have this sense of loyalty, nostalgia, and love for Brittany because she came of age when we came of age.

[209] So there's this millions and millions and millions of people.

[210] And for me, I was in Catholic school.

[211] I did not understand what sexuality.

[212] was.

[213] I did not understand the confidence of owning that at an age.

[214] And so when I saw her in that video with Hit Me Baby one more time, I mean, my jaw dropped.

[215] I was like, what girls can do this?

[216] Oh, my God.

[217] Like, I got an autograph and I knew every word.

[218] And it just, I mean, it was teenagehood wrapped up in sort of sexuality, but also in somebody who was undeniably charismatic.

[219] And she always courted controversy.

[220] Do you like Christina or do you like Brittany?

[221] Is she with Justin?

[222] What happened there with Crimea River?

[223] Is she manufactured Barbie doll or is she the talent of her generation?

[224] And so they were just so good at creating and putting her in the zeit guys until it went terribly awry.

[225] And so it was my like in terms of Moby Dick, my white whale of like the story because I am somebody that studies women, what happens to women in the criminal justice system.

[226] And you can't get more of that in the story.

[227] But also I will add that she was pre -social media.

[228] So she was coveted in some way.

[229] It's not like, you know, we had access to her all the time.

[230] All we got were the things she decided to put out or the tabloids.

[231] Like nowadays, I think it'd be hard to have someone like that because you just get inundated.

[232] And you get to hear them just speak and just be like, no, that's not true.

[233] Yes, that's true.

[234] So there was sort of something enigmatic around her.

[235] Yeah, people were dying for more and more and more access, but there was an Instagram.

[236] But she was a sacrificial lamb for us, by us.

[237] And I think that, I mean, she is a symbol of American girlhood and what it means to be sort of like beloved and then hated.

[238] And so I just think that there's a lot of things, universal things, about us being like Britney Spears.

[239] But Britney Spears herself has had to carry the weight of all this.

[240] And like, what happens to someone who has lived a life like this?

[241] And in talking to Adnan, Ghalib, her ex -boyfriend, And one of the things he said to me that stuck with me the whole movie, I know it's controversial that I included him.

[242] This is the paparazzi that she ended up dating.

[243] Right.

[244] And he said, imagine having nobody in your life that you could trust, not dad, not mom, not sister, not management, not the guy that's even, you know, working on your at your house because someone is trying to like sell secrets.

[245] And so I think what does that do to your level of trust and your reality?

[246] I think it's just so damaging.

[247] And so that's one of the things that I just try to understand.

[248] What does it mean to be able to really not trust anyone?

[249] Yeah, he was a really kind of unlikely character in the doc that I maybe did a 180 of my opinion on.

[250] I just hate paparazzi, so of course I didn't like that guy.

[251] But then hearing him talk, I was like, I don't even understand how this guy was a paparcy to begin with because he does seem to have integrity and some kind of moral compass and a lot of compassion for her.

[252] And I don't think he was as exploitive of her as I thought.

[253] I mean, there's a whole sort of racial element to paparazzi that these are people that come to the country and it's a way to make a living.

[254] And specifically, if you're just trying to start out in Hollywood, I'm not somebody that has been harassed by the paparazzi at all, so I'm coming into that perspective.

[255] But it was guys that said you could make $500 up to $50 ,000, up to $100 ,000 if you get the shot of Brittany.

[256] Well, let's be clear, though, because I'm going to push back.

[257] Yeah, you can get 500 or 50 ,000 if you trample a bunch of people, get in a fist fight in front of her.

[258] Call her a bitch to get her mad.

[259] So, yeah, you can also get money fucking stealing people's purses.

[260] So I'm not entirely compassionate about the new arrival who decides that.

[261] Like, you watch a lot of those videos, and it's fucking assault.

[262] There's really no other way you could interpret what's going on.

[263] There was a before and after.

[264] There was paparazzi at the time when Adnan started at the very beginning where you gave people room.

[265] And then when Brittany started to descend into whatever she was dealing with, it was a free for all.

[266] And I agree with you, it was absolutely assault.

[267] And I think that that has not changed.

[268] And specifically, all of the invasive tactics to photograph her children.

[269] And you'll see that we don't show her children's faces in the film because she doesn't want that.

[270] She doesn't need her children to be dragged into it.

[271] And so with Adnan, yeah, he was this deeply unlikable guy.

[272] You just Google him.

[273] He has the crazy facial hair.

[274] You're like, what?

[275] Yeah.

[276] It's a soul patch.

[277] It was big back then.

[278] Yeah.

[279] It was of the era of the time.

[280] You know, he does not want to be tied to the story anymore.

[281] So it took about seven, eight, nine hours from off the record to get him to do anything.

[282] And it was really that we can all say what happened during that time period, but Adnan was actually there.

[283] And people have gotten really upset that I'd use Adnan and Sam Lutfi, who have really intense interests and some manipulations, specifically on the Sam side of what they wanted to happen to Brittany.

[284] But the thing is, they were there.

[285] And people can, I had a minute and a half, I think, of Sam Lutfi.

[286] And the movie is much, much longer than that.

[287] You know, there's a lot more Adnan, but I really truly got that he cared for her.

[288] So I gave sort of leeway.

[289] And so people in documentaries, they want access, but they don't want it to be exploitative.

[290] And so we have to sort of, as a documentary director, just trying to figure out who was there, what they said, fact -checking it.

[291] But I definitely came to a different understanding like you, Dax, of the Adnan story.

[292] Yeah.

[293] I bet for you, there's a lot of things to wade through to make sure you're on the right side of all of it.

[294] Like, is it another round of perpetuating this overexposure of this human being that probably the best thing possible would be everyone on planet Earth would maybe forget about her and let her just live?

[295] I mean, for her own health.

[296] So I wonder how you navigate, like, knowing you're on the right path.

[297] It was a really complex thing that I thought about every day.

[298] When I pitched this to Netflix in May 2019, she was very, very, very much still in the conservatorship.

[299] And there was no light of her getting out.

[300] And, of course, it takes quite a long time to make a movie.

[301] So I'm so thankful that so many things changed over the course of filming, which we were able to capture.

[302] but my intention at the start of this was to show is there predatory abuses happening inside the conservatorship and getting actual evidence and nobody at the time had solved that and so it was really trying to figure that out and so I thought that by doing that I was aiding this story and Brittany and paying attention like not doing the head shave not doing the umbrella incident not showing her in the back of the ambulance things like that but I will tell you like when this came out there's like there's like a rustle Brand, like, I don't know, really long talk, like, this is exploitative, what is happening?

[303] I mean, you know, he just was like...

[304] That's a good Russell Branch.

[305] No, it's not.

[306] I, like, somebody sent it to me, and I was like, I worked for two and a half years on this.

[307] Like, this is for Britney Spears.

[308] I don't know what to tell people.

[309] Like, people think Netflix, blah, blah, blah.

[310] But it's like, it's me alone in a room with a bunch of other ladies alone in a room trying to figure it out and be good to her.

[311] Yeah.

[312] But I'm seeming a defensive.

[313] I don't know.

[314] It would be, um, unhuman of you to know someone that you, I, I would assume probably like Russell Brand.

[315] And so when you, yeah, if you, if someone you like is disappointed with the decision you made, that doesn't hurt you.

[316] You, you probably are a sociopath.

[317] There was a lot of that.

[318] And I think that for me, I put myself in the, in the movie.

[319] Oh, did people not like that?

[320] No. Really?

[321] What?

[322] We don't like women inserting themselves in things because they're looking for attention.

[323] When Michael Moore does it, what is it?

[324] It's him biting the man, right?

[325] And Andrew Jarecki was in the jinx.

[326] No one was upset about that.

[327] Everyone loved that.

[328] But think about how many women put themselves in films, like in documentaries.

[329] Yeah.

[330] I can't.

[331] Yeah, you really can't.

[332] And, you know, our good friend David, who works with y 'all, like, he's incredible on camera and really adds to it.

[333] So I was trying to do it, but I'm sure I get one millionth of what Britney gets and one 500th about you guys getting.

[334] but like, it's like, why is this creep with horrible eyeliner?

[335] Like, it just is so weird.

[336] Like, I've made amazing, I've made films that I'm really into, but this was unlike anything I'd ever experienced, the level of opinions on it.

[337] And so it was just wild to sort of think about.

[338] And when people are making a documentary, like, it's just, this is a part of it, having the stomach to say, people have opinions about the work that you're making.

[339] That's inherent to making art. But also the irony that like every single person has an opinion on this woman and your eyeliner and this.

[340] And that's exactly what happened to her.

[341] It's the same.

[342] Well, I mean, no one would like to admit this as a fan of hers, but they were the problem too.

[343] They bought the fucking magazines.

[344] So it's like everyone's judgmental, but everyone's carrying a little bit of the original sin, which is like everyone wanted more.

[345] They still want more.

[346] Everyone's culpable.

[347] But not everyone's tearing her down.

[348] Just because you want more doesn't mean you're saying, ooh, and then look at her hair here and look at this.

[349] No, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying.

[350] I'm saying they're attacking her because they think she's being exploitative.

[351] Right, but I was talking more about the nitpicking of like, ooh, what's this person, who is she, and what's...

[352] But again, I think you're just going for like, they don't know what the fuck to say.

[353] They're defending Brittany.

[354] And there's some weird level of acknowledgement, whether it's subconscious or or whatnot, is that you're seeing in that person something that you might not be comfortable with yourself, which is like, has my love for her fueled a lot of this?

[355] Like, am I a part of this problem?

[356] You know what I'm saying?

[357] Yeah.

[358] You don't buy it.

[359] No, I don't know.

[360] Yeah.

[361] I don't know either.

[362] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[363] What's up guys?

[364] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[365] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[366] And I don't mean just friends.

[367] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[368] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[369] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[370] We've all been there.

[371] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[372] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[373] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[374] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[375] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[376] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[377] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[378] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[379] Okay, I'm going to push back on some things, having nothing to do with your eyeliner, and I loved the documentary.

[380] I think you under -explored her addiction.

[381] Yes.

[382] And I think part of the conservatorship that we're not privy to has a lot to do with that.

[383] I mean, Brittany has never self -identified as an addict.

[384] And I had a lot more material in the movie, but then it's about Britney doesn't self -identify as an addict, has never said that out loud.

[385] And so who am I as a sober person to out this person and their addiction?

[386] I know so much about that.

[387] And it's a wildly upsetting thing.

[388] And I had edits of it, but it pushed the edge of exploitative and things that she would not want out there.

[389] Basically, addiction is really at the root of this movie.

[390] Yeah, yeah.

[391] And we tiptoed around it and I was like, oh, here we go.

[392] We're going to like the fact that they would up her Adderall prescription by double when she worked and then she works.

[393] Also, let me say, I'm not saying what she did anything.

[394] I've blown a ton of Coke over at that apartment back in the day.

[395] That's me. I'm not saying anyone else did anything else.

[396] But I think there's a pretty good amount of proof that.

[397] that from a very young age, that there's been a tremendous amount of addiction.

[398] And if we hope to approach justice, I feel like all the information kind of has to be in the conversation.

[399] Now, let me say also, I don't think her dad should have ever had anything to do with the conservatorship.

[400] But I also, I have to just look up from the outside and go, okay, well, at the time it was started, she had a shaved head, she had lost her children, it was going as bad as it could go and potentially towards death.

[401] And there's this bozo around that's definitely making moves to steal all this money she's worked her ass off to make.

[402] Cut two years into the conservatorship.

[403] She has her kids back.

[404] It seems like that's going well.

[405] She's working, albeit that part is very weird, considering she has no personal autonomy but can hold a job.

[406] I think that's crazy.

[407] I love it.

[408] It was in your documentary where they said, I've been to a million of these conservatorship meetings and not a single person's ever had a job.

[409] But I just feel like it's a big part of the story that maybe no one who loves Brittany wants to consider because they love her.

[410] But there's nothing to not love about someone who's an addict.

[411] Addicts are fucking lovable.

[412] You're one.

[413] I'm one.

[414] I love you.

[415] I'm okay.

[416] There's just, there was a lot of self -denial in the things that I saw privately.

[417] Yeah.

[418] She said, you know, I've never been addicted to this.

[419] And I was going through a rough time because of my children.

[420] And I just, I sat with it for so long because it's obviously something that drew me to the story.

[421] And it really came, it was born out of early in her career.

[422] What do you need to be skinny as a, as a young pop star?

[423] You need uppers, right?

[424] And I think there's questions running.

[425] Who introduced that to her?

[426] What was it like?

[427] And then how did that progress in terms of the rest of her career?

[428] And also like in looking at the depositions that.

[429] that we were given, depositions that we uncovered, questions again and again were asked about Adderall specifically.

[430] And she just would not own up to it.

[431] And so there was a way for me to communicate that there was denial to it.

[432] And I think you're right, Dax.

[433] I think that I got really nervous and I overthought everything because I'm making a film about somebody that I haven't been able to speak with.

[434] And so it's almost like the, like the emergency break would be on all the time.

[435] And I think we went hard hitting at a bunch of things, but I just felt so nervous about that.

[436] Sure.

[437] And also, you're in a unique, you and I are both in a unique situation, which is we have a tenant that we don't diagnose other people with addiction.

[438] And at the same time, I'm a human being on planet Earth that knows what a fucking addict looks like.

[439] So it's like I'm always juggling this weird thing.

[440] Or even Monaco asked me, you know, like this person, what do you think about that?

[441] And I'm like, you know, I'm not supposed to say whether I think.

[442] But at the same time, I do because there are people that I think clearly have wreckage in their life.

[443] And there's a ton of addiction in her family.

[444] But do you think her being an addict warrants a conservatorship?

[445] Because like you said, they're everywhere.

[446] Neither Dax nor I was in a conservatorship.

[447] We might have needed one at some point, but we did not get in it.

[448] That's my point.

[449] Like there are a lot of people who are off the rails, addict or not.

[450] and they are not under a conservatorship.

[451] I agree.

[452] So here's a debate Monica and I have had off the air after watching this thing is, I just wonder if you play it out, right?

[453] Conservativeship's gone.

[454] It's gone.

[455] She's on her own.

[456] And what happens if within four months she somehow is penniless, is that protecting her?

[457] If that were the case, would we feel good about that?

[458] I mean, again, I don't want her dad anywhere near that thing.

[459] I don't think any of her family members should be.

[460] I'm just wondering if we would want it's really tricky because she's a fucking boss.

[461] Like that's the crazy thing about her.

[462] She is such a boss and she's in such command of her life on stage and with a crew.

[463] And she's a business woman.

[464] It's not she's not just a talented, you know, puppet.

[465] She's a good business woman.

[466] And so, I mean, I, in the spirit of our lively discussion, Dax, I'll push back.

[467] on your what you said like please she is an adult person and we have this prescriptive lens that she is troubled that she can't take care of herself that she needs she's going to end up penniless without somebody's supervision the fact is it's her money and she gets to spend it and for 13 years if she wanted to go out and buy books for her kids or get a hamburger she had to ask for permission and so i think that we can't do the thing where we need to protect her from herself She needs to be given the opportunity, and she still has some safeguards in place.

[468] But I think it's time for her to make her own decisions.

[469] And if she makes some bad decisions, everyone in this beautiful room in the Zoom box has made some bad decisions.

[470] Yes, the consequences are higher because it's Brittany, and there's so much sort of people looking at her.

[471] But it's just, it's time for her to do that.

[472] And she's, you know, she's 38 years old.

[473] And I don't mind if she goes out and spends $50 million tomorrow.

[474] scratch -offs and loses all of her money.

[475] What I don't want is some handsome dude literally conning her and stealing her money.

[476] So that's the part that's scary.

[477] Like, having a right to have your money stolen is a very bizarre right to fight for.

[478] And that's my fear.

[479] And maybe I'm, maybe I'm infanizing her.

[480] Maybe I'm, maybe it's misogynistic.

[481] Maybe I wouldn't worry about a guy as much.

[482] I don't know, but there's just been so many dudes in her life that I don't fucking trust.

[483] And then, of course, the model for her was someone that she shouldn't have trusted and can't trust her father.

[484] So I just get nervous that this woman who's already, look, anyone that's had her career and only has $50 million in the bank, there's a fucking colossal mismanagement right there of what that woman should be worth relative to other stars of much less relevance and ticket sales.

[485] So something's already very fucked up in the finances.

[486] There's been a lot of legal fees.

[487] A lot of lawyers getting paid.

[488] Fuck.

[489] I looked at the accounting records from the origin 2008, 2009, and you, I mean, we all need lawyers.

[490] Some need lawyers protect themselves, but literally the sheer volume in which she was spending on lawyers, her court -appointed attorney one year made in excess of $400 ,000.

[491] And it's a complex thing that he had to do, but it's just like, what is for?

[492] sort of going on here.

[493] And I was astounded at the number of like, you know, 50 or 57 million that her like combined net worth that never made any sense to me. And I asked every single interview subject I ever talked to off the record, on the record, on background, what is going on that this?

[494] Where's the money?

[495] Where's the big leak?

[496] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[497] And the only thing I've been able to come up with is there's something called the SJB Trust, which is not part of the conservatorship.

[498] and so I think that there could be money in that, so I'm hopeful.

[499] Okay.

[500] But I do think if you look at the money that's been spent, yeah, there's a lot of it went to stuff.

[501] Well, I think it totaled $3 million for that one law firm that's, quote, representing her and they've never ever pled for her to end the conservatorship or get her father out of it.

[502] I mean, it's, yeah, it's criminal.

[503] It's fucking, it's so gross.

[504] I would love to hear the lawyer explain how he arrived at those numbers.

[505] Like, how many, what was he, he was working 24 -7 at $400 an hour on this case?

[506] You can't, I mean, yeah, there was a money grab.

[507] I mean, I think that what is uncomfortable about the legal situation is Britney pays for her own court -appointed lawyer that she did not pick.

[508] She pays for her father's lawyers, which is a team of lawyers.

[509] and I think that it really is, people are on weekly billing things.

[510] And so, but basically her lawyer and Jamie's lawyer have to work together as a team to be some paticoe inside the conservatorship.

[511] So the evidence that I saw is for many years, it was about keeping everything copacetic.

[512] And so it's like basically her cornerporn and lawyer needs to be at odds with Jamie's lawyers, but as a part of a working conservatorship, you can't be.

[513] Because one, you're not going to get paid if you're in opposition to the people that are paying you.

[514] And so conservatorship law needs to be reformed.

[515] People that, quote, unquote, lack capacity, need to be able to at least get their own lawyer.

[516] The fact that she finally got a lawyer, Matthew Rosengar, in July.

[517] And then months later, Jamie Spears is suspended, something that she has been asking for.

[518] I'm not kidding you ever since 2000.

[519] 2008, 2009, all the time.

[520] And so I think that that's what, that's where the real story is, like, what does it mean for someone to say, I need help?

[521] This is not working.

[522] And for the court to say, this is the situation you find yourself in.

[523] And again, the irony that she has lost all her money in this.

[524] The thing is to protect her money and to protect her.

[525] But through this conservatorship, somehow, most of it is gone.

[526] So if we're protecting her, we're not protecting her.

[527] I don't know what her finances were before the conservativeship started.

[528] They were brutal.

[529] It was bad.

[530] Right.

[531] Yeah.

[532] She was in debt, I think, when it started.

[533] She had very, very little money.

[534] I mean, a quote, it was in dire straits.

[535] There had been a lot of spending.

[536] And that's what her family is really concerned about.

[537] And I think you brought up a great point of, like, Brittany was somebody that needed help at that moment.

[538] It was very, very clear.

[539] And I think that that's what most people said to me that back then she needed help.

[540] She needed her family to step in.

[541] And then when she got her bearings and was doing the circus tour, and I encourage everybody to go and YouTube and look at the circus tour, look at those videos.

[542] That is somebody who is in control of themselves, their body.

[543] She's figuring it out.

[544] And that's where it started to get really weird, right?

[545] It went from a let's help this person to I'm managing her life and her career.

[546] Well, yes, to me, that's a fundamental hypocrisy that you could be unfit to run your life but fit to go work.

[547] You've got to pick Elaine Conservativeship.

[548] Either she needs to sit in a house and be monitored or she is an autonomous performer.

[549] I don't think you can have both.

[550] Everyone kept telling me the whole legal system has said, nobody knows what's going on behind closed doors.

[551] She may appear this way in the public, but no one really understands.

[552] And I obtained evidence of what was going on at the time.

[553] And that's what is really interesting now.

[554] Like, they said that there was so much going on, but it really was somebody processing and figuring it out.

[555] So they get to hide behind the sort of like nobody understands what's going on when what I could tell it was somebody that was working through a troubled spot, but not somebody that couldn't provide for clothing, food, or shelter, which is mandated for a conservatorship.

[556] And so all this discussion is really about what does it mean to be powerful?

[557] What does it mean to be silence?

[558] and then to be silenced for 13 years.

[559] And it's almost like we've been in this little quarantine for two years, which is a huge amount of time for us.

[560] But Brittany has been in a quarantine for 13 years straight.

[561] And what is that doing?

[562] Things are going to happen as a result.

[563] It's a very, very disturbing way to live.

[564] Now, how was she able to have an Instagram and yet also can't do interviews?

[565] I'm very confused by that feels like a paradox.

[566] God, I don't know the answer to it.

[567] I mean, for a long time, it felt like crowdsurf, the social media agency, was running her Instagram.

[568] And very early on, I started tracking and looking at Instagram all the time and figure it out.

[569] And you can see that Brittany never likes any comments.

[570] She's been dating her boyfriend, Sam Ashgari, super cute, loves him.

[571] They've been together for four years.

[572] And he would say, oh, like, look at you, babe, you look great.

[573] And, like, everyone knows that if you're, like, the gal and getting complicated, you're going to like that and say, thanks, babe, love it.

[574] Brittany never once commented or liked it.

[575] And so that, to me, you know, I'm kind of speaking like the inspiratorial person in the woods, but it was like, she's not running her Instagram.

[576] She would like his comment.

[577] But also the other thing is I think that because of, I don't think they ever allowed her to see the comments because some of them would be probably disturbing for her.

[578] And so maybe that was it.

[579] But now she is running her own Instagram because you can tell.

[580] That's obvious.

[581] Yeah.

[582] So there's this amazing duality or maybe even triality about her, which is like when she speaks on her own behalf at that hearing and she's written that thing, it's like very well written.

[583] She's very articulate.

[584] She's in total command of what's happening.

[585] And then I will watch an Instagram post and I'm like, what is happening here?

[586] where is like this sense of self -awareness that I saw from the courtroom stuff.

[587] It's a paradox to me. Yeah, I'm trying to make peace with that.

[588] Like this is intermittent, like really sharp points of clarity that I, I've been, I'm like, yeah, man, what, this is insane.

[589] Like, literally, they've held this person hostage.

[590] And I'm sure she has Stockholm syndrome from it at this point.

[591] Her captors, you know, you fall in love with your captors, like it's all so confusing.

[592] And then yet I'm not sure what's happening on Instagram.

[593] What do you think of Monica?

[594] Do you have, we need you to.

[595] I mean, look, everyone's doing something on Instagram.

[596] Everyone is creating some sort of false persona or maybe it's real, whatever.

[597] But everyone's doing something there.

[598] It's not that surprising to me that she can write a well -written plea or read one or whatever and also have an Instagram that's kooky.

[599] Yeah, kooky.

[600] That's a great way to.

[601] I love how real it is.

[602] Like, it's not the same manufactured, like, check this out.

[603] Like, it's weird.

[604] It's funny.

[605] It's bizarre.

[606] You know what I mean?

[607] And, like, the dancing and, like, the modeling of the clothes.

[608] And she's been trapped.

[609] We do have to remember she has been trapped.

[610] So now this is a time where she feels free.

[611] And that might lead to some kookiness, I'll say, again.

[612] Well, I want to back up and give her some compliments because we watch the other Britney documentary.

[613] which I also liked a lot, by the way, because the part that that thing exposed for me is how unaware I was in the water at the time all this was happening.

[614] So the fact that this, you know, 45 -year -old man asked her if her boobs are real when she's a minor is like, it's so crazy what she endured in these interviews.

[615] But what's also incredible is she is a fucking master interviewee.

[616] Like, she was able to draw boundaries, be assertive, and be the cute, likable pop star.

[617] Like, she was more masterful in those early stages than many other of her peers.

[618] That's fascinating to me. She really, like, navigated these really gross situations over and over again.

[619] And it was really because it's the beginning of her career because there was a concept of sexuality put in her.

[620] her work, she had to get really good at pivoting.

[621] And there's a scene I wasn't able to include, but it's in the, basically the documentary where it's like three days in Mexico.

[622] And people are asking her, like, how much her house is worth.

[623] And she's like, you know, fuck you.

[624] I'm not going to talk about that.

[625] And then somebody else asks her to like stand up and see what she's wearing and do a twirl.

[626] And she's like, no, I'm not doing a twirl.

[627] And so I think she was somebody that got pressured really early on to do things and she hates interviews and so i think she's a hard time with journalists right everybody has tried to have trespass on her boundaries and i think that there's some trauma from it after watching the first one i instagram messaged her i said to Kristen i'm like you know i don't really have any desire to necessarily develop a new friendship with anybody in the world but i do feel like i'd like to be one i want to offer like i don't want anything if you have if you need some one to chat with that doesn't want a single thing from you, I'm available.

[628] I just felt like I wanted to rescue this person, obviously.

[629] And I felt like one of the fundamental things I saw is crazy.

[630] You already pointed out, which is like, I don't know that she has a single person who is status -wise appear who doesn't want a single thing from her.

[631] I wish there were more people in her life that maybe weren't, there wasn't this huge status gap.

[632] But did she respond?

[633] Like, I feel she never responds to anything, yeah.

[634] No, no. Because people are watching her Instagram messages.

[635] Yeah, they don't want me talking to her.

[636] It's literally, like, what I also notice that you're hitting on is, like, solidarity and friendship.

[637] And this is where we get a lot of the love in our life.

[638] And I think that what I saw that was incredibly unique to Brittany was that there was not a support group of friends around her besides people from back home, which people were watching.

[639] them.

[640] And so I think had she been able to have friends, I think it could have potentially really helped.

[641] Yeah.

[642] And even the people, though, that are genuinely love her, like that woman that was assigned to her over the years.

[643] Belicia, yeah.

[644] Yeah.

[645] She's clearly a beautiful human being and really cares about her.

[646] And there's a limit to that relationship because she's employed by her.

[647] So anytime you're employing the people that love you, it's just dangerous because they can really only be so, It doesn't seem to be slowing you down about not being a yes, man. But she can only do so much that woman.

[648] She ultimately is employed.

[649] I don't know.

[650] It's so fucking complicated.

[651] Brittany is this topic that becomes like you can investigate every single thing about it.

[652] It becomes like I've never had such intense discussions about ethics, about addiction, about ownership, about rights, about friendship about conditional love.

[653] Like it is just wild how many things you can go with it.

[654] And like the other pieces that were made, it's like, you know, that led to this happening.

[655] And so I think that there's been like some fatigue, but it's all about like, is the truth coming out?

[656] And I really believe it is.

[657] And then it's causing all of us to have these conversations that I think can change our perspectives on stuff.

[658] Like what you just said about the paparazzi earlier is like, I think I was being a little soft on them and for you to be like, no, this is assault.

[659] I had to like hear someone say that to me again and really like a re because I've looked at all of that footage and you know, it really can be that.

[660] Oh yeah.

[661] I mean those moments where like she's trying to get to her car and dudes are fist fighting like all hell's breaking loose.

[662] It's literally a riot following her.

[663] And what I was on the verge of saying is what blew me away is actually how insanely strong she is because I, in those situations, I've had a few different physical situations with those folks, and I feel like I'm in a room with no doors, and I am so claustrophobic in those situations.

[664] And if I feel like I can't escape, I'm going to the most primitive part of myself.

[665] So the fact that the umbrella incident took that many years before she finally was in full survival, I got to escape the situation is so impressive.

[666] in so many ways.

[667] I had a millionth of that, but once I had kids, I was like, no, no, no, you are not fucking trapping my children in this bubble.

[668] I will, I will kill all of you and go to jail for it.

[669] But that's not an option.

[670] So it made me immediately my worst person.

[671] And the fact that she could go that long before that occurred, I'll also say she's almost, I'd put her up there with Princess Diana and really a martyr for that whole behavior we all kind of thought was just fine.

[672] And it was every single day, every time she went outside at all times, and she even became friends with some of them, because she was like, what am I going to do?

[673] These people follow me around all the time.

[674] I don't know.

[675] Besides Princess Diana, had there been anybody that dealt with this level of sort of scrutiny?

[676] And it was just, it's, yeah, she's a product born of that time of commercial magazines of like, hey, we're going to offer you $50 ,000, $100 ,000.

[677] And then we buy the magazine.

[678] So it's this circle of sort of shame and going into it.

[679] But I would say one of the interesting things that I didn't think about in terms of that is one time she was with Adnan and he had a trucker hat in the back.

[680] And they were going into a store or Starbucks or something and she put it on.

[681] And then the next months, like that blew up became one of the biggest trends because Brittany put on a hat.

[682] and remember like the trucker hat phenomenon like i think it goes back to brittany like her just being like and so this mightest touch of anything she touches either is corrosive and harms her but also is this incredible trend that everyone sort of seeks out and so i just i always thought that was interesting and like plays so much this woman's doing this one thing and then it like just the money that can be created out of this one singular act chair expert, if you dare.

[683] Okay, now I'm going to have to be devil's advocate again.

[684] And again, I am sympathetic to it.

[685] I do think she had a form of Stockholm syndrome with the press because I'm also watching it going, well, I know how I operated through life knowing I hated those people.

[686] So I just moved in a very specific way.

[687] And there were choices that were made that seemed to not try to mitigate that.

[688] whatsoever and locations you would go to that are you there is no back entrance there is you know you're gonna be there's no way around it like there's a lot of things that could have been done that would have mitigated some of that perhaps not living in l .a i don't know so i'm just curious what you think about that relationship because it seems like more could have been done to escape it on her side i it's a really good question i mean my thing is that i think you get addicted to it and as certain way.

[689] It's a corrosive element in your life, but how could it not make you feel like God, right?

[690] And so I think that when people talk about Princess Diana, they talk about this sort of, you know, incredible vultorism that was exhibited by the press.

[691] And something really upsetting that I found out was that Princess Diana went out multiple times that night.

[692] She was like basically at dinner and then go back to the hotel and then win somebody else.

[693] And it was like people in all senses of the word like being chased and until you don't like being chased.

[694] And I think that unfortunately it was always dangerous for Princess Diana to be out.

[695] And I think the same thing was for Brittany.

[696] And she loved to drive fast and she loved to have people sort of be in pursuit.

[697] It was almost like sort of a video game, but obviously it's really dangerous.

[698] And so I think that in her world at the time, it was something that she was just going to sort of like play with and figure it out.

[699] And she knew the consequences, but she was living life.

[700] And this, you know, her kids had been taken away.

[701] She didn't know who she could trust.

[702] And so I think it was just a part of that addictive thing of like, if I don't have this, then like maybe I'll be pursued.

[703] And she's used to living in chaos already.

[704] So that's kind of her natural state.

[705] That's normal.

[706] And if she has nothing to lose, like, of course she's going to do that.

[707] Of course she's going to go in the front door.

[708] Like she's not trying to protect anything.

[709] unfortunately.

[710] I'll just add that if hypothetically she was wrestling with addiction and knowing the shame that comes from that and knowing the disappointment oneself, that is an immediate hit of like, well, things aren't that bad.

[711] Everyone's still completely interested.

[712] Like, I could imagine it being a tiny bit of a prop you could use to prop yourself up when feeling low and out of control in another way, which is like, how bad could it be?

[713] These people are still wanting to be.

[714] These people are still that interested and I'm still worthy of this, even though I feel like I'm worthless.

[715] Like she could control it or not control it.

[716] And then at like recording studios, 50 people would be climbing the walls and trying to get into the building and trying to track her.

[717] Or there was this thing where she was leading people.

[718] She, they were following her versus her, as you said, the claustrophobia of being surrounded.

[719] What does it mean if she's leading the pack?

[720] And I think that's always something I thought about.

[721] Yeah.

[722] And it's kind of a weird.

[723] I mean, this is like such an extreme analogy.

[724] And I know you weren't saying anything like this.

[725] But there's some element of like, oh, she could have gone to different places.

[726] She could have moved.

[727] She could have, you know, it's a little bit like.

[728] Blaming the victim.

[729] Yeah.

[730] Like, well, the hot girls should not wear the short skirt because you're just, it's going to happen.

[731] You're asking for it a little bit.

[732] I totally agree with you.

[733] It runs the risk of sounding like that.

[734] I'm just speaking for me personally.

[735] Like with that level of attention, I just wouldn't be here.

[736] certainly wouldn't be going to a popular restaurant.

[737] I want me going to a popular bar.

[738] And I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be doing that, that's all I'm saying.

[739] So I've got to make that jive with why I would have done it differently than she did it.

[740] That leads to a curiosity, not that she deserved any of that.

[741] No, I know you weren't saying.

[742] But you're right.

[743] It sounds like, well, if she don't like it, she shouldn't be a pop star.

[744] Right.

[745] And that's not what I'm saying.

[746] I think she should be free to pursue what she's passionate about without being surrounded by a thousand fucking wonderful guys wonderful men and fatigues army fatigues jumping out of every corner oh Aaron what's next how are you going to shift gears what are you going to work on next uh I have a two -part series coming out on HBO that I'm finishing right now involving you guessed it a murder case um baby It's very upsetting and it was really difficult because it was a really sort of intense graphic crime.

[747] And I was able to actually get group therapy for the team.

[748] And so that's something that I'm really trying to get four teams that are dealing with crime stories.

[749] Like, you know, access to not only your own therapist that, of course, we all have to, we all do.

[750] But also, like, what does it mean to process some of these things?

[751] Because I know I've had some secondary trauma stuff from the gymnastics movie, from Mommy Dead and Dearest.

[752] And so, like, taking in the weight of that.

[753] So just making sure that the people that work with me aren't taking that into their lives because it can be really intent.

[754] So doing that and then doing a couple more movies with HBO about, I think, exciting things.

[755] And, yeah, like, just trying to do the thing, you know?

[756] Yeah.

[757] Can we geek out because we all love docs here?

[758] Can we geek out a little bit on what ones you've loved recently?

[759] Can you think of any standouts?

[760] Absolutely.

[761] So let me check.

[762] I have gotten into this really, bizarre thing where I watch between two to six hours of tennis and have it on background.

[763] And so at night, I'm like scrapbooking and watching ATP tennis matches, which is horrifying.

[764] It just is one of the only thing that can take my brain off of what I do during the day.

[765] Right.

[766] And I think that it's just, but I forget the exact name of it, but there's one on HBO that is like a local news state.

[767] in Las Vegas.

[768] Yeah, yeah.

[769] That one, that was so incredible.

[770] And like the Michael Jackson lady, and I was like, this is so different than what I have ever made, but like, I love it.

[771] Yeah, yeah.

[772] Oh, it was the real life office.

[773] I mean, it was, yeah, it was incredible.

[774] It's about an independent news station, which there's very few left, and they were trying to get themselves into the Las Vegas market.

[775] That was great.

[776] I would say recently for us, there's been just a ton of great sports.

[777] both with the guys who did Wild Wild Country.

[778] Yeah, those were called Untold.

[779] Untold.

[780] Yeah, it's like Mous at the Palace, Marty Fish.

[781] I thought it was excellent.

[782] Yeah, that was incredible.

[783] And then there's one called Bad Sports a series right now on Netflix.

[784] Have you seen that?

[785] Mm -mm.

[786] I beg you to watch the one about the dude who he just wants to race cars.

[787] So he starts trafficking marijuana and he becomes like the biggest fucking.

[788] It's that he's so likable.

[789] He just wants to race cars.

[790] And I can't believe it's a real story.

[791] It's so fucking good.

[792] And then what else?

[793] Did you watch Crime of the Century?

[794] That is amazing.

[795] I mean, Alex Gimney, who I worked with before and is my mentor, I thought that was fantastic and jaw -dropping.

[796] Unfortunately, like, so my boyfriend's not an addict, and I make him watch intervention every night before bed.

[797] Yes, great show.

[798] Great show.

[799] He is just like, do we have to keep doing this?

[800] I was like, you got to understand what's going on.

[801] Oh, I have an idea for a lot.

[802] doc for us.

[803] Okay.

[804] I want to see if you can buy into this.

[805] This is my first conspiracy theory that I've launched, I think, which is, as you probably are aware, these people are now dying from cocaine that has been laced with fentanyl.

[806] And you and I as party animals, we know that makes zero fucking sense.

[807] There is no reason any drug salesperson would cut, cocaine with fentanyl.

[808] It does not make sense.

[809] You'd cut heroin with fentanyl because you could have shitty heroin that induced the heroin feeling for much cheaper.

[810] Totally makes sense.

[811] Nobody buying coke is looking for a major opiate in that experience, unless they're going to go out and do a speedball.

[812] And why is someone just blowing some of their fentanyl budget to put in this cocaine?

[813] Nothing has ever made less sense to me ever than lacing coke with fentanyl.

[814] And it's now kind of epidemic.

[815] There was four people here, comedians that died.

[816] I have a friend who's a little brother OD buying a bag of Coke in Detroit.

[817] It's everywhere in Coke, and that has led me to this conspiracy theory.

[818] Is it possible since none of the drug traffickers or the drug lords or the drug salesman, that's not good for their business at all.

[819] It doesn't help anybody.

[820] Could the CIA have figured out, like, fuck, if we just make all these?

[821] potentially deadly.

[822] People are just going to have to stop doing it.

[823] Because like, you can't even do Coke now?

[824] Like, I'm going to have to explain to my daughters, like, experimenting aside, which I'm pro experimenting, you can't now.

[825] Because it's fucking fentanyls and everything.

[826] It's going to be in mushrooms next.

[827] What is happening, Aaron?

[828] Oh, I mean, I was watching an intervention last night where someone was, like, smoking two grams of fentanyl a day.

[829] Oh, then, like, it was just the most sort of shocking sort of thing.

[830] And then there's people who, this woman whose boyfriend died in her arms after a fentanyl re -up.

[831] And so it is what you said.

[832] It's unthinkable.

[833] And it doesn't make sense.

[834] And what happens when things don't make sense?

[835] There's a different ulterior reason for it.

[836] And I think it could be that.

[837] I think it could be other things.

[838] I just...

[839] Something stinks.

[840] Something stinks.

[841] But the thing is, people always take drugs.

[842] Like, I don't think if the CIA was like, this is how it's going to stop it.

[843] Like, literally after COVID.

[844] it's everybody has, it has been such a problem because people are being, even though there's more deaths, people are drawn to more drugs.

[845] And so I don't even know if that makes sense because more and more people are dying.

[846] And I don't think it prohibits other people from doing drugs.

[847] I think it's not going to be me. It's not going to be me. You think, I mean, for you and I, yeah, because we were already trying to kill ourselves.

[848] But I hope that for like the recreational Coke user, which there's tons of, I think in this.

[849] Malcolm Gladwell book I read, they said only 6 % of people who experiment with cocaine will ever be addicted to it.

[850] So the vast majority of people that try it, just try it.

[851] And so I think maybe those people are like, there's no way I'm trying this thing that there's a fucking one in a hundred chance.

[852] There's fentanyl in it and I die.

[853] Well, here's the question.

[854] Is there any way to test your bag of cocaine before you ingest it?

[855] Like, who's coming up with that?

[856] Well, so there is.

[857] There's rapid fentanyl test now.

[858] But my question is, like, what you're going through every single micron of a fucking eight ball of Coke?

[859] And we were talking about it last night at a meeting.

[860] We were saying, like, well, what I would do is get the bag of Coke and be like, well, let's get a good line in so that I can focus on this fentanyl test.

[861] Like, I'll go through it all meticulously, but I'm going to need one line to kick this thing off.

[862] I just, something is really, really fucking amiss with this fentanyl.

[863] thing.

[864] Because it's bad for every part of the chain.

[865] The consumer, the manufacturer, the sales folks, who's benefiting from this?

[866] I mean, I just think back to how much cocaine my father did, which is like the most anybody could ever do like a mirror, a flat, like a full -length mirror and doing a whole line off the mirror.

[867] I just like had, I mean, it would have had a completely different story if it was now versus the 80s.

[868] It's just.

[869] dead and would have never become the guy at the New York Times.

[870] And yeah, I think it's eliminating stories where people could have second chances, second lives and things like that.

[871] Yeah, it's very weird.

[872] Like, I found myself having this thought where it's like, I'm actually anti -war on drugs in some of its derivations.

[873] But they need to figure out fentanyl.

[874] But anyways, I'm certainly, we would both be very fascinated in figuring.

[875] How is that, what does that smell like?

[876] What is a, can you in my hand.

[877] I'm just going to look at it.

[878] I'm just going to look at it.

[879] So you're saying this little bit will get me high for four.

[880] I don't, no way.

[881] That seems like a great project for you too.

[882] Doesn't it?

[883] Specifically.

[884] Yeah.

[885] Did you get fucked up when you were doing the drug one prior to Britney versus Spears?

[886] Yeah, I was at a police station in the evidence room and they handed me a kilo of cocaine.

[887] I could just run right now.

[888] I could just, I mean, they might stop me, but this.

[889] this is a kilo.

[890] Like, if I'm ever going to go out, like, it's this.

[891] And it was like that five seconds and I was like, get out of this room.

[892] Like get out of this room.

[893] This is not a safe place for you.

[894] So, I mean, I saw that as like a duty towards criminal justice and then also addiction.

[895] Like that was one of the things were like as an addict in recovery, just trying to explain that to a mass audience like Netflix or HBO has, you know?

[896] And so yeah, I got fucked up, but nothing like the gymnastics thing, which I literally felt different as a person.

[897] I, like, felt fearful of men.

[898] It was hard to, like, trust people, really hard to trust doctors.

[899] And so that was the one that really sort of bopped it.

[900] You guys look so uncomfortable right now.

[901] No, it's just the sad.

[902] Are you kidding?

[903] I talk about being molest at all the time.

[904] Yeah, I think for a lot of people, they're going through their own memories and they're recognizing moments that were inappropriate that they chose not to think too much about.

[905] I think after I've talked about it so much, I've had people go like, God, you know, I didn't really.

[906] I just, I was like, eh, my uncle's weird, you know, he's drunk.

[907] Yeah, you write things off more than you.

[908] Yeah, yeah, an actor friend of mine was like, you know what I mean?

[909] Yeah, my uncle's a drunk and sometimes he slept in my room.

[910] And I was just like, oh, my drunk, you know, he's a loser in my family.

[911] But no, and that's, that's an adult.

[912] 100%.

[913] Yeah, with an ulterior motive that you're supposed to trust.

[914] And that's fucking, uh, worldview shattering, you know, it's like permanently changes your lens of this planet.

[915] Totally.

[916] Yeah.

[917] Well, I love you.

[918] It's been great to see you.

[919] I know.

[920] You got to come back in person.

[921] I know.

[922] I got to be honest.

[923] I, I walked into the attic today.

[924] I don't know why.

[925] I thought you were here.

[926] And I walked down.

[927] I was very excited to see you and hug you.

[928] And then I saw a computer sitting here.

[929] I was like, what the fuck?

[930] I thought I was going to.

[931] Hey, you know what?

[932] I will fly out next time.

[933] I'm all about the hugs.

[934] Like, I think that truly, like, I just, now I'm making documentaries to have conversations with both of you.

[935] So, I mean, it's also, like, you get into it and your, uh, the arm cherries, like, get into it the same way.

[936] Like, it's the exact prime audience for the stuff I make.

[937] So it's just, it's always fun.

[938] And I just like, I learn from how to go certain ways listening to your guys as interviews and how to, like, you know, change the narrative and things like that.

[939] and I felt like I interrupted too much, but I'm, like, so obsessed with Britney Spears, and so always exciting.

[940] You did not.

[941] You did not at all.

[942] You're the interviewee.

[943] You should always be interrupting.

[944] I think I did a, you know, I generally, that's my lane is the interrupting.

[945] At least if you read my comment section.

[946] Well, I love you, Aaron, and I can't wait to see you in person, and I also can't wait to watch every single movie you continue to make.

[947] So prolific, so young, so lovely, so powerful, Erin Lee Carr.

[948] Love you.

[949] Bye.

[950] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Badman.

[951] You look athletic.

[952] Thank you.

[953] Were you just on some kind of record setting?

[954] I've done a lot of walking today.

[955] You have, how much?

[956] Is it heiress level?

[957] No, I wish.

[958] Uh -oh.

[959] I know.

[960] A grievance.

[961] Oh, you have a grievance.

[962] Well, no, no, no, no. I can't actually say it.

[963] that because it sounds bad.

[964] What?

[965] It's hard to walk here.

[966] Los Angeles.

[967] In what way?

[968] It's scary.

[969] Oh, you're scared.

[970] This is why you definitely need to be carrying, you know.

[971] Nope.

[972] Nope, nope.

[973] What do they call that?

[974] You need a concealed carry permit.

[975] I'm not doing that.

[976] Okay.

[977] How about unconcealed?

[978] So you wear like a machine gun around your neck.

[979] Is there any weapon you could bring that would make you feel?

[980] safer?

[981] I don't think so.

[982] I think I just have to not do it or do it and be scared.

[983] Is there a third option?

[984] I don't know.

[985] I walked to a coffee shop, which was not my close coffee shop.

[986] Oh, okay.

[987] Where?

[988] Like towards Silver Lake?

[989] Yeah, it was by Kismet for your reference.

[990] Oh, thank you.

[991] Uh -huh.

[992] You know, I passed Marud today out on the town doing my errands and it was, there's 45 people outside.

[993] And I looked for you, and then I panicked.

[994] I was like, it's hard to grab one human out of 45 as you're blowing by.

[995] I went to a, wow, that was a good folly.

[996] But it was a long walk, which is lovely.

[997] And I wish I could take more walks like that.

[998] But it scared me. I don't know how much I can say because it's like bad.

[999] Is it all homeless people?

[1000] Is that what it is?

[1001] Yeah.

[1002] But like really bad.

[1003] Yeah.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] Well, wouldn't it be weirder to, like, pretend we don't have a ton of homeless people?

[1006] I know.

[1007] Well, anytime it's dishonesty, I don't feel like it's the move.

[1008] I saw one by Maru.

[1009] You saw one by Maru?

[1010] Well, I saw it's a butthole, though.

[1011] Oh.

[1012] The homeless situation in L .A. is so bad.

[1013] Oh, it's out of control.

[1014] It's completely out of control.

[1015] And it's really bad.

[1016] I think the only place you would get in trouble is if you now proposed a solution and then you might get blowback because people disagreed with that.

[1017] But to point out that you are literally walking over human beings to go to a coffee shop.

[1018] But I don't like feeling like I'm put out by that.

[1019] Why?

[1020] Because that feels, but that feels so privileged to that.

[1021] If you're mad at joggers, you should definitely be mad at people literally living on the sidewalk.

[1022] Joggers are privileged.

[1023] They're jogging and they could easily take one step to the right.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] It's so different.

[1026] Yeah.

[1027] I mean, I walked through like a camp.

[1028] And there was just stuff everywhere.

[1029] I'm just like figuring out where to step and also feeling very scared for myself.

[1030] Yeah, of course.

[1031] And then feeling very guilty.

[1032] It's very complicated.

[1033] Can you walk me through the guilt?

[1034] Yeah, like, I'm scared.

[1035] I'm so privileged.

[1036] I could take an Uber.

[1037] I could take my car.

[1038] I could do anything to avoid this.

[1039] And they can't.

[1040] And this is their light.

[1041] Yeah, I'm just trying to then work out the policy that comes out of that.

[1042] Like, so is it theirs?

[1043] like that's a wrap on like if your privilege just take an uber because the sidewalk's now there is this where they're living and you can't really walk down it but no one hurt me that's the other thing like if I'm really being honest like I'm scared but no one that's is that on me I guess there's there's some different issues to parse out one is like should a city allow people to live on the sidewalk that people use to commute places and I mean I think no I think that's not a great you know civic plan i do think part of it is the city is hard to live in unless you are very privileged right but when you were making three thousand a month what part of town do you go rent in and i have a family who can take care of me at any moment like it's not the same thing well i'm saying that there are very inexpensive cities to live in and there's very very expensive cities to live in and there's really nothing one can do to prevent the market for producing that outcome unless we're getting rid of capitalism this is a really really expensive city so if i have no means uh and i want to have a house i'm going to go somewhere where it's obtainable it's not obtainable you're not you can't possibly be coming here thinking you're going to get a house this is the most expensive place other than manhattan like i wouldn't go to manhattan So some of it's like, you can't pretend we live in a different reality, which is L .A., because of the incredible price per square foot, as has Manhattan and San Francisco and all these places, we can't afford to be putting up tens of thousands of people in houses in this city.

[1044] They'd have to get services outside the most expensive real estate in the world.

[1045] It's just not, it's an insane plan.

[1046] I don't know enough to speak on it, which is why I sort of feel weird talking about it.

[1047] Like there are other cities in the world, not in America, that I think do a much better job than we're doing.

[1048] And I don't know what they're doing.

[1049] Well, I do.

[1050] They aren't republics.

[1051] So they don't have 50 states within the country setting drastically different policies where some states are incentivizing homelessness and some places are de -incentivizing.

[1052] And then virtually California, Oregon and Washington gets stuck with the bill.

[1053] That's the reality of what's going on.

[1054] People in other states are putting homeless folks on buses here.

[1055] And so in a republic where three of the states are going to bear the burden of all 50, that's what's fucked up about the policy.

[1056] Yeah.

[1057] That's what they can do it in England.

[1058] Yeah.

[1059] It's hard for me to look at it in a policy way.

[1060] I mean, I know we have to and I do, but today on my walk, I don't.

[1061] I look at it as people who I'm walking over.

[1062] And of course I feel guilty.

[1063] Yeah.

[1064] I mean, you could get into a hundred different reasons why.

[1065] Just for sanitation, people, there's no facilities out there.

[1066] There's no trash.

[1067] You know, it's unhealthy what's happening.

[1068] Now, I can have great compassion for them.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] I'm so grateful that I'm not in that predicament for sure.

[1071] But I also can't, because I feel bad for them, co -sign on a plan to fix it that's not going to work.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] There's probably going to have to be a federal homeless approach because it's just not working.

[1074] Yeah, but again, it's not working because a lot of states don't have to look at it.

[1075] And we do.

[1076] So we're inundated and that's not really fair to us.

[1077] It's not.

[1078] But other states don't understand.

[1079] The question is if we had no more services than Texas, do you think someone actually crosses 1 ,500 miles to get here?

[1080] if there's no incentive to arrive.

[1081] This is going to be more expensive when you get here.

[1082] I think there is an incentive and just that it's a nicer place to be.

[1083] Well, I don't think you could say that L .A. is nicer than Austin.

[1084] You could bathe at Barton Springs.

[1085] We observe some of that.

[1086] Well, to be fair, not at Barton Springs.

[1087] On the other side of the dammit.

[1088] Anyway, that was my walk.

[1089] So tell us about your day of hard labor.

[1090] Well, my list is it's 22 items long.

[1091] Most of it's mechanical things.

[1092] And just in a nutshell, everything that could possibly prevent it from happening easily has happened to tell people what you're doing and why you're doing okay i am um i've invited five of my male friends to go to the sand dunes for five days and i have all the shit so i have razors i got to get out there three razors i got get out there.

[1093] The sand car, I got to get out there.

[1094] The motorhome, I got to get out there.

[1095] Two trailers.

[1096] None of the other guys that have shit, right?

[1097] Yeah.

[1098] So I got to get all that cracking.

[1099] And let's just start with, like, the locks on the back of the trailer, which I need to open the door so I can get the sand car out, put the key in.

[1100] There's only one key.

[1101] It snaps immediately.

[1102] So I'm like, okay.

[1103] Oh, oh.

[1104] Now what?

[1105] Yeah.

[1106] Go to Home Depot.

[1107] Oh, no. I buy a set of bolt cutters, also buy a battery powered grinder and started charging the grinder and thought, well, I'll give it a shot with these bolt cutters.

[1108] And I got through them.

[1109] It was not easy, but I got through them.

[1110] Got in the sand car to move it out.

[1111] There's a cylinder in the clutch that makes it go in and out.

[1112] And it was in gear.

[1113] And then that cylinder was losing pressure and just letting the clutch out.

[1114] So then backing out of the trailer, there was virtually no control over backing out of the controller because the clutch was just engaged.

[1115] And then so I kind of just blew out.

[1116] the trailer and broke the steel cable.

[1117] Oh, wow.

[1118] You know, and this is nothing.

[1119] This was one of 16 things today that went sideways.

[1120] I think I kept a really good attitude.

[1121] At first I would go, like, you're not going to make it.

[1122] You're running out of time.

[1123] You're not going to be able to leave on time.

[1124] And then I'm going to go, shut up, just plot along.

[1125] And I kept plodding.

[1126] We got to add one more thing.

[1127] I went walking with Sedaris.

[1128] Oh my God.

[1129] Of course we have to talk about that.

[1130] Yes.

[1131] I met him at 7 a .m., which is in itself really funny because, as you know, I don't really wake up early ever for nothing.

[1132] And I was up at 4 .45 so I could do all my business, be in Beverly Hills by 7.

[1133] And we walked six and a half miles.

[1134] And it was so fun.

[1135] It was so fun.

[1136] What are the highlights?

[1137] Well, probably, I think I told you already.

[1138] But I think the highlight for me was we stopped at Starbucks and he was carrying two cups back because he had.

[1139] gotten one for Hugh and they didn't give him one of those insulating sleeves and I could tell it was too hot it was too hot for him yeah so I took mine off and I gave it to him and then he said what but now you have the thing and I said yeah but you're my elder and then he said well I don't know about that and I said look this is the same as when you call someone in the front of the line you got to make up an excuse I'm just carrying it I thought of it the other day because I was in the exact same position I didn't get a sleeve they didn't give you a sleep it was too hot and no one could save me. Oh, my gosh.

[1140] Oh, my God.

[1141] Did you burn your hand off?

[1142] Oh, wow.

[1143] It's off.

[1144] Oh, my gosh.

[1145] That's off.

[1146] Yeah.

[1147] So, anyways, that was fun and super adorable.

[1148] Then we went and seeing him read his stuff.

[1149] And I had not previously been to one of his readings, nor anybody's reading ever.

[1150] I've never gone and seen someone read a book.

[1151] And what was really fun is there's stories that aren't in books.

[1152] Oh, that's fun.

[1153] That adds a really cool novel incentive.

[1154] go.

[1155] It was so fun.

[1156] Okay, Aaron.

[1157] Now, this is kind of fascinating and we didn't even plan.

[1158] This was always going to come out now.

[1159] But Brittany is free.

[1160] Yes.

[1161] This seems like we're out to lunch.

[1162] Well, it seems like we planned it.

[1163] I know, but the whole conversation is like whether or not she'll get out and should she get out.

[1164] And then, but everyone already knows she got out.

[1165] So it seems like we didn't get the news.

[1166] I guess it depends on how you look at it, but yes.

[1167] Ah.

[1168] Yeah.

[1169] And you have complicated.

[1170] feelings and so do I no I mean in general I think I hopefully was really clear about yeah it's like yes she should have her autonomy yeah she's gonna work and do all that stuff and I'm terrified I know you're worried about her yeah yeah I get it so so do I but uh but I'm happy people have a right to smoke cigarettes exactly yeah I know so many people who if I could pick had someone controlling their life I probably would and they and they don't and they don't and so she shouldn't.

[1171] Wait, you would pick someone that should have their life controlled?

[1172] I mean, if there's people who are so...

[1173] Oh, in line in front of her.

[1174] Yeah, exactly.

[1175] There are so many people that I would pick before her.

[1176] I got you.

[1177] I thought you were hinting out of someone specific.

[1178] No, no, no. I just mean like there are people who are so erratic in so many ways that I would be like, yeah, maybe they need someone there before her.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] But it's going to lead to so many other questions and things.

[1181] I know.

[1182] It's not over.

[1183] Anywho.

[1184] Oh, I looked up who else has had conservatorships.

[1185] I found a couple.

[1186] Amanda Bines.

[1187] Okay.

[1188] She had a mental health issue in 2014.

[1189] So she was put on a conservatorship.

[1190] Mickey Rooney.

[1191] Really?

[1192] In 2011.

[1193] Oh, okay.

[1194] It's quite old at that point.

[1195] Correct.

[1196] Correct.

[1197] I think there was like a money thing And then Brian Wilson Oh Lead singer and songwriter of the Beach Boys In the 90s In the 90s Yeah I don't think he still is under one But he was under one Well they're a little more common It does seem I will say like the other ones Feel a little more elderly They feel a little more like protective And then they're done Temporary They end at a time Yeah, yeah.

[1198] Of all the things, I find the legal fees the most inferiority.

[1199] You hated that.

[1200] Yeah, I really do.

[1201] Okay, the doc about the independent news station.

[1202] Yeah.

[1203] Is called Small Town News, KPvvm, Peromp.

[1204] KPvm, Perom.

[1205] That's hard to say.

[1206] KPvm Perop.

[1207] Oh, yeah.

[1208] Small Town News.

[1209] It's really funny.

[1210] Did you ever watch?

[1211] You didn't see any of it, do you?

[1212] No, I need to.

[1213] Yeah.

[1214] But Peromp reminds me so much of one of my favorite.

[1215] shows Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip.

[1216] Why?

[1217] Because there's an episode where one of the guys get stuck in Perrump.

[1218] Okay.

[1219] Perump, Nevada.

[1220] What was he doing out there?

[1221] Chicken Ranch or something?

[1222] No, there was like a sad story about him and his brother.

[1223] Oh.

[1224] I think he was in a war.

[1225] Okay, it was dramatic.

[1226] It was dramatic.

[1227] Okay, great.

[1228] Yeah, I loved it.

[1229] We loved it.

[1230] Watched it so much.

[1231] Oh, my God.

[1232] A lot of heavy hitters there.

[1233] Tommy Shalong.

[1234] Tommy and Sorkin.

[1235] Matthew Perry.

[1236] Bradley Whitford, who has been on this show.

[1237] Whitford.

[1238] I mean, really, truly heavy hitters.

[1239] Sarah Paulson is in that show.

[1240] SP?

[1241] Yeah.

[1242] Oh, my gosh.

[1243] I should check it.

[1244] Really good show.

[1245] Really good show.

[1246] Oh, this was sad.

[1247] Okay, you said you think in a Malcolm Gladwell book.

[1248] It says only 6 % of people who experimented with cocaine get addicted.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] I looked up that stat.

[1251] to Malcolm Babel, but I couldn't find it.

[1252] But then I was going to email Malcolm and ask him.

[1253] But then I couldn't find his email.

[1254] Okay.

[1255] So then I gave up.

[1256] Okay.

[1257] But I'm going to keep looking for his email because I know I have it.

[1258] I don't think he knows his books, though.

[1259] He said that on here.

[1260] But he can email this is probably.

[1261] He can do the dirty work for me. I'm sure he's, you know, clearly he's quoting some study.

[1262] Of course.

[1263] Yeah.

[1264] I'll dig around.

[1265] I'll snoop around.

[1266] So will I, but I wanted to get right to the source.

[1267] mainly because I don't know if the study is true but I want to know if he said it because we can't say that he said a thing if that's not true.

[1268] Isn't that kind of what I do?

[1269] I think everything I've ever read is from a Malcolm Gladwell book.

[1270] So it's incumbent on me to make...

[1271] Some of it's probably Freakonomics.

[1272] Yeah, exactly.

[1273] So I want to make sure he's not getting like roped into a thing you shouldn't get roped into it.

[1274] Right.

[1275] He gets someone goes out and experiments with cocaine based on his data and then they become addicted and then, yeah, he's liable.

[1276] So I'm going to keep reaching out, keep searching through my all -in -box folder.

[1277] Okay, great.

[1278] For his email.

[1279] And then TBD.

[1280] TBD.

[1281] Still don't know the sweater brand.

[1282] Not going to find out.

[1283] Love you.

[1284] Love you.

[1285] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1286] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[1287] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.