S3 E6: A Psychopathic Narcissist

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and discusses topics that could be triggering to some.

[11] Opinions expressed by guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[12] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[13] All resources, books, and sources mentioned on the podcast can be found linked in the episode notes.

[14] Please note, names have been changed in this story for anonymity purposes.

[15] If you or someone you love is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is struggling with a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 24 -7 at 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] Please note, some of today's episode involves suicidal ideation or thoughts of suicide.

[18] Please take care when listening.

[19] Thank you.

[20] Here's C .J. Bishop, telling me about how Victoria's brother and her brother's wife, aka Ted's BFF's and Brad's aunt and uncle.

[21] discovered the affair between Ted and Patty.

[22] His aunt and uncle, his wife is the one that noticed.

[23] Apparently, they were visiting for Brad's graduation or maybe his sisters, like, but they were here and Patty and Kurt and their family were, you know, also, of course, involved and at this graduation party.

[24] And apparently they saw an interaction with, Ted and Patty that they felt was off, that they just, I mean, they just must have a lot better radar than we do because we never experienced that, but they just caught them in a very odd moment.

[25] And they didn't say anything.

[26] Months went by after this witnessed kind of interaction between Patty and Ted.

[27] And one night they, they were talking to Ted on the phone and joking around and, you know, just kind of bust in each other about certain things.

[28] I mean, that's just what they did.

[29] And I think it was my husband's aunt had ended up saying to my father -in -law, like, oh, you think I don't know every secret about you.

[30] I know a lot more than you think.

[31] And my father -in -law was like, what?

[32] Yeah, right.

[33] You know, you don't, blah, blah, blah.

[34] And she simply said, I know that you and Patty are having an affair.

[35] And apparently there was just dead quiet on the other end of the line.

[36] And he said, how did you know that?

[37] And she's like, I saw you at, you know, whatever graduation party it was at the time.

[38] She's like, I saw it.

[39] And he said, well, if you can see that, how many other people can.

[40] And she's like, exactly, Ted.

[41] So what are you doing?

[42] Like, what are you doing?

[43] And the story with that was, you know, my mother -in -law, Victoria, like, she's just became crazy and he's very unhappy and they want to be together.

[44] and kind of all came out through there.

[45] I mean, ever since then, they knew about it.

[46] They knew about this affair.

[47] They did choose to kind of side with Ted and support him in it because they truly thought that him and Patty were going to end up together.

[48] They had correspondence with Patty.

[49] They talked to Patty on the phone.

[50] They have emails, you know, of her admitting to it and saying, like, you know, that she can't believe that they figured that out.

[51] And they were in full support of it at the time, but as some time went on, they two came around and saw like, okay, something is rotten here.

[52] She's not who she says she is.

[53] She is not a good person to be around and you need to come clean.

[54] She must have done a couple things like that they were like, wait, huh, uh, like.

[55] So they started kind of figuring her out.

[56] Patty knew it.

[57] And in turn, Patty started telling Ted like, huh, uh, like.

[58] Like, you know, he, like, she was trying to steer him away from even them.

[59] So this disconnect with my father -in -law and Brad really started to grill my father -in -law.

[60] Like, hey, like, you need to cut contact from Patty.

[61] You need to make it right with your son.

[62] You need to come clean.

[63] Like, you need to do it.

[64] You need to do it.

[65] Like, they would just hound him and hound him.

[66] Like, I guess they felt like it's not, we can't do this for you.

[67] Like, this has to come from you.

[68] you need to just make things right in your family and he wouldn't like all he would do is just disconnect even further from them and he's been friends with them so long they were the only two people that were that close to him i mean and and like even he disconnected from them which is crazy a few days after we came home from ted's funeral a friend of mine was in that group of friends with Patty, text her, and see how they were, see what was going on.

[69] And Diana confronted Patty.

[70] And Patty had said in a text, and I actually think I still have a copy of it, that she has slept with other people, but she did not sleep with Ted.

[71] But the police report, and the many, many emails that my sister -in -law has says different.

[72] And do you think one of those people that she was sleeping with besides Ted was Mr. Johnson?

[73] Oh, yeah, without a doubt.

[74] Oh, yeah.

[75] Mr. John, I said that for years.

[76] I says, he is very sweet on you.

[77] And she's like, oh, you're just making that up.

[78] I'm like, no, I'm not.

[79] I said, it's blatant.

[80] You can see he is flirting with you.

[81] He is all but kissing your butt.

[82] I said, you don't see that?

[83] She goes, oh, no, he's not doing that.

[84] And I'm not.

[85] Like, everybody can see it.

[86] I don't know where your blind butt is, but everybody can see it.

[87] But Ted did not.

[88] Ted kept it very, very, I never saw it.

[89] After the fact, I saw one picture while we were at Disney.

[90] She had her hand laying on his.

[91] And then, of course, you start putting two and two together, and you see the closeness of Mr. Johnson and Ted and Patty.

[92] Yeah, it was quite, they must have quite a triangle because Ted hated, hated Mr. Johnson.

[93] They tolerated each other and then probably like, I want to say like the last seven, eight years, they loathed each other.

[94] And Patty was always very famous to really rip up Mrs. Johnson.

[95] Just speak badly of her constantly.

[96] And if you called her on things She seemed to back away a little bit But it wasn't very often I called her on things Because I always kept trying to keep the peace I always tried to Keep everybody happy And I made no one happy Including myself I used to tell her I says you have got it all And she used to tell me all the time Oh I just love my life I said you have a man That loves you so much And you can see it I said, I wish I had an ounce of that right now.

[97] I would be ecstatic if my husband put his hand on my hand.

[98] And here he wouldn't, because Patty would see it.

[99] And Patty would get enraged if he touched me. What do you think made Patty so, for lack of a better term, intoxicating?

[100] I think it was a personality that she would sweet talk them.

[101] and she would play giddy and she would like to flirt with them.

[102] Do I think she was good -looking?

[103] She was average.

[104] I don't think she was anything to write home about.

[105] I know that when Ted and I married always used to tell me, he says, you know, if you get bigger than a size 10, I'll divorce you.

[106] I expect a certain look in my wife.

[107] And Patty was none of those things.

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[117] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[118] She had been under the influence and that she left him there.

[119] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[120] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[121] What happens next?

[122] Depends on who you ask.

[123] Was it a crime of passion?

[124] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence.

[125] evidence was so compelling.

[126] This was clearly an intentional act.

[127] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[128] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[129] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[130] Everyone had an opinion.

[131] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[132] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[133] Law and Crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[134] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[135] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[136] Patty lived right next door to Mr. Johnson.

[137] So there was always a little slight difference there because Ted just didn't like Mr. Johnson because he thought he was a sleaze bag and he just because he doted, over Patty and Patty, she liked the attention.

[138] She liked the attention.

[139] We were her puppets and she was in control of all of us.

[140] Patty would tell me that CJ would be talking behind their back, talking about us, talking about them, that CJ hated the O 'Brien family, hated her boy, couldn't stand their daughter that CJ would make things up about them and I'm like really I got to the point where I believed it because I was like why would they lie to me and I felt horrible afterwards and Ted was a flirt I'll be the first to say that and Ted used to flirt with CJ you know very innocent Ted was a flirt with all women especially pretty women after the fact after what we found out it was because CJ is pretty and Patty didn't like it patty could not stand that Ted would occasionally flirt with CJ and it was very innocent it was his daughter -in -law for goodness sake it wasn't like he was coming on to her anything and point -blank that's what it was and so she She used that against CJ and turned Ted away from his son and his daughter -in -law.

[141] And in my opinion, CJ was figuring it out when things started getting really hot and heavy, and that's when Ted completely turned away from Brad.

[142] CJ is a smart, smart young woman.

[143] The night that all of this came out, you know, basically what was said was the whole problem started.

[144] This whole disconnect between us and my father -in -law was the fact that Patty didn't like that Ted and I had a good relationship, you know, because him and I were buddy -buddy, like, you know, I knew I would bust on him about like the stupidest stuff and I could make him laugh a lot and he would make me laugh too.

[145] Like he just, he was just funny to be around.

[146] I mean, his personality and mine like really kind of.

[147] to went together and, I mean, yeah, he was just hysterical, like, back when things were good.

[148] We had a good relationship, and she hated it.

[149] Like, she just hated it.

[150] I don't know.

[151] I don't know if she thought, I don't know if she thought maybe my father -in -law had like a romantic interest in me at some point or something, and that just set her off.

[152] So then she decided to start all this and these rumors, but it breaks my heart because so many times he told me that I was just like a daughter to him.

[153] You know, he, I remember even one time my dad, my dad had called my cell phone when I was over at Brad's parents' house.

[154] This was years ago.

[155] And I didn't have reception or my, my dad didn't have reception on his end.

[156] So I picked up the phone and I like stepped into the next room and I'm on my cell phone and I'm going, dad.

[157] And Ted turned around from watching TV and said, yeah.

[158] And at first I kind of didn't get it.

[159] And then I said again, I'm like, Dad.

[160] And Ted again turned on.

[161] He's like, what?

[162] And I thought, oh my God, he thinks of me like a daughter.

[163] And I will never forget that.

[164] And it just breaks my heart now because things went so awry.

[165] But he really did.

[166] I think think of me like another, like another kid to him.

[167] And it just breaks my heart.

[168] I went along right with it.

[169] Like, I'm not acting like the innocent party here.

[170] Because for a lot of years, I totally took what she was giving me and just like ate it up.

[171] Like, I believed everything she said.

[172] I mean, I just totally like fed right into stuff and whatever she would feed me. I would believe it because I honestly thought she was a person of her word.

[173] She always seemed like she was.

[174] So why would I have any reason to disbelieve it?

[175] Like, she would tell me, you know, really crappy things that my mother -in -law would, like, comment about me. And a few times I had called my mother -in -law out on that and said, like, do you think I, like, did you think it, did you have a problem with me doing this?

[176] Or do you, do you think this?

[177] And she'd be like, no. Why?

[178] What's making you ask me that?

[179] Like, she'd have zero clue.

[180] And whenever I would turn around and tell Patty, well, I confronted her about that and she denied it.

[181] She said, she never said that or whatever.

[182] Patty'd be like, she's lying.

[183] Like, she absolutely did say that.

[184] She was just, anything she could do to turn me against, like, my in -laws.

[185] She definitely did.

[186] We were having people come out of the woodwork that, that knew Patty, saying, oh, yeah, okay, well, since this is out in the open, here's what she was telling me about you, and here's what she was telling me about your husband, and here's what she was saying about Victoria, and we always thought it was so weird that she, that she talked about her friends so badly whenever they were supposed to be best friends.

[187] I mean, it was even like, I mean, as crazy as it sounds, one of my best friends, her mother works in a dentist office in town here, and it's a dentist office that my husband's family I'll go to and that Patty's family I'll go to.

[188] Well, sure enough, didn't she hear a slew of things about me in the dentist office from Patty when Patty would go to have appointments?

[189] It's like, I mean, it's insane.

[190] Any way she could bash.

[191] this family to whoever would listen, she would do it.

[192] Her husband Kurt came to our home at my husband's invitation, like after all of this kind of started to come out.

[193] And basically, you know, he just came over and all my husband asked was okay, like, what do you know?

[194] I called Kurt about a week or two after.

[195] I texted him or something I said, can you come to the house?

[196] We've got to talk.

[197] He said, yeah.

[198] Now my sole purpose in him coming man to man we're going to i'm going to invite him into my home i'm going to tell him what his wife is it's not to listen my dad has a lot of things too was a lot of things too so this isn't i'm just not shoveling the whole pile of junk onto her onto patty we're going to get through this and he needs to know he needs to know and i said what do you know what happened he said i was checking her phone this is kirk kirk telling me he's that I checked Patty's phone, and there was a ridiculous amount of text messages between her and your dad and her and Mr. Johnson.

[199] And I'm like, okay, he's like, and I told her, like, you know, I'm not going to stand for this, blah, blah, blah.

[200] And this is what he's telling me, whatever it's true or not, you know, I believe it.

[201] And I started telling him stuff she had saved emails.

[202] It was denied, denied, denied.

[203] I mean, it was instantly defense.

[204] Oh, yeah, why I heard this.

[205] Oh, yeah, where I heard that.

[206] I was like, Kurt, I ain't talking about that stuff.

[207] man, I ain't talk about it.

[208] Oh, yeah, why?

[209] I heard, I heard that your dad and your wife had an affair at one point.

[210] I'm like, really, really?

[211] And I know who started that.

[212] It was Patty years ago.

[213] And Kurt took it, you know, and started spreading that rumor around.

[214] You know, it was just, it was complete deflection, deflection, deflection, all this stuff.

[215] I'm like, listen, man, this is what happened.

[216] Like, I buried my dad over this stuff.

[217] I'm just telling you, like, this is who she is.

[218] And I said, well, do you know that she went and talked to the city detective.

[219] Yep, yep, I know she did.

[220] I know she did.

[221] She said, I'm like, what she said.

[222] You know, I told her, you know, did you tell him anything you didn't tell me?

[223] No, I swear, I swear.

[224] I was like, Kurt, she admitted to the whole thing.

[225] He really didn't say anything.

[226] He just kind of sat there and looked at me. I'm like, Kurt, she admitted to everything.

[227] Everything.

[228] It's going to go into the police report.

[229] Do you want the detective's number?

[230] I give it to him.

[231] You can hear from him.

[232] It's up to you.

[233] It was one hour on the nose.

[234] and after I told him, I just kept going back, you know, he kept saying, I showed him printed off emails.

[235] He's like, well, that could be fabricated.

[236] You can make that stuff up.

[237] That could be fabricated.

[238] I'm like, okay.

[239] I'd show him another.

[240] That could be fabricated.

[241] No, I don't believe that.

[242] I don't believe that.

[243] When I finally told him about what the detective said, I must have brought it up four times.

[244] I'm like, Kurt, what do you think of the detective?

[245] This is what he said you can call him right now.

[246] What do you think?

[247] What do you have to say about that?

[248] And word for word, he said, well, from my own sanity, I have.

[249] have to believe that she's telling the truth.

[250] And write that in there, I knew, listen, in my own heart, I thought, I did what I had to do before things get stupid.

[251] I'm not saying a fight or anything like, but before, like, I get mouthy or irate or whatever, I'm just going to shut it down.

[252] So I'm like, all right, well, that's it.

[253] I said, that's all I needed.

[254] I says, you can head out if you want.

[255] I says, I'm going to, I'm leaving.

[256] I said, I've got to leave the house.

[257] I'm going to go do something, you know.

[258] He's like, all right, you gave me a hug.

[259] And he left, and he's walking to his truck, and he turned around and looked at me, and he said, how many people from the far department know about this?

[260] And I said, well, there's a couple.

[261] He nodded his head and laughed.

[262] And I've only said that to a couple people, and they said, because they're all about image.

[263] They're all about image.

[264] They don't want to be drug through the mud.

[265] They're all about image.

[266] You know, at one point, he even said, like, I'm pretty much a victim here, too.

[267] I'm like, whoa, whoa, yeah, you are.

[268] From everything on, I know, yeah, you are.

[269] your kids are, you are, you're the victims, just as we are.

[270] I'm letting you know what you're living with, man. I'm Dan Tibersky.

[271] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[272] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[273] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[274] She's like, I can't.

[275] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[276] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[277] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[278] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[279] Well, you were holding something back.

[280] Intentionally.

[281] Yeah, well, yeah.

[282] No, it's hysteria.

[283] It's all in your head.

[284] It's not physical.

[285] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[286] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[287] Or is it something else entirely?

[288] Something's wrong here.

[289] Something's not right.

[290] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[291] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios.

[292] Hysterical.

[293] follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[294] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[295] Kirk came over here at his invitation and came totally on the defense.

[296] Like he came here totally knowing like he was on the defensive and basically just kept saying, well, we were only friends with your parents because we felt sorry for them because they didn't have family here.

[297] And they didn't have any other friends except us.

[298] and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[299] And, you know, Brad said, boy, if you put some boobs and a blonde wig on that, you, you would have thought you were talking to Patty because that sounded exactly like the stuff she would say.

[300] And it's not that they, it's not that my in -laws didn't have friends here.

[301] Like, I recall they had other friends and any friends that they had, Patty never approved of or Patty would, like, steer them away or just talk badly about them or just put in her crappy input like she made it so they didn't need any friends except for Patty and her family just like they didn't need their kids because they had Patty's kids and that's exactly how she liked it is that the kids fault no they're victims in it too it's not their fault but Patty knew exactly what she was doing as far as Kirk goes if that's how he wants to live his life then that's how he's going to live his life life you know no one can force him to leave his wife no one's going to force him to do anything if that's what he wants to live with i guess that's his choice my only goal was to inform him and that was it i don't hate him you know i don't have any real ill feelings i don't trust him no different than his wife i don't hate her i don't and i can forgive her but do i trust her no like like absolutely not like I don't even want you knew my family.

[302] I don't even want you, like, I just don't.

[303] Like, I don't trust you at all.

[304] I don't.

[305] Like, you've lost all that.

[306] She's a good manipulator, obviously.

[307] She's incredibly deceptive.

[308] She's incredibly good at what she does in that aspect of it.

[309] But I half wonder, and maybe this is a slam to my dad, but I think it's the honest truth.

[310] I think the people that she gets involved maybe with doing that sort of thing, are they maybe a little bit like her?

[311] how could you not how could you want to go along with something so deceptive or be a part of something like that if you're not if you're not cut from a little at least a little bit even a shred of the same cloth right i mean how else could you go along with that you know i don't know the full dynamics of an affair how it works and how people tick and all that stuff but it's like if you if you know even a fraction of that what's going on and nothing registers you to say or do anything well then I guess you're just as evil as she is my dad was like I said he was a prideful in a sense like he was a rough guy shaved his head big muscle he was like your veteran fireman that's the aura he had he was just a tough guy he's a tough childhood he had a tough upbringing you know he was just tough and so you know women did kind of you know he was a flirt He was a big flirt.

[312] And I think that was his major fault.

[313] Not only his prideful, horrible pridefulness of him, but he was also a sucker for women.

[314] I mean, he could just be led by a string.

[315] You know, if he thought that he was impressing a girl or something.

[316] That's what, and growing up, that's kind of like what I owe.

[317] And you always kind of saw that like kind of a flirt.

[318] You know, always kind of like, I don't want to say showing off in front of girl.

[319] You know, I don't know how else to say it, but kind of in a sense, you know, I don't know, like, just that, he just had that aura about him, you know what I mean, like, I don't think it was, it was, I don't think it was, I don't think it was always like that growing up, you know what I mean, as far as him, you know, he cheated on my mom very, very early.

[320] I think it was before I was even born.

[321] I'm talking like they were still, you know, he just had my sister, you know, they were still very young, you know, when they got married.

[322] And I think he cheated on her one.

[323] before but growing up I never ever had an inkling that he was doing that you know and they had worked through that once before and you know he would never do it again and my dad always claimed that my mom would hold that over her his head in any big argument she would kind of hold that over his head and I told Mrs. Johnson like about all of this that came out you know I I sent her a text message which I should have picked up the phone and called but I guess I wanted everything in writing at the time I I did fill her in on what was going on and she basically just said like you'll have to just be patient like this is a lot for us to take in blah blah blah blah like they are our friends and I'm like I get it like and I pretty much knew that that would be my last conversation with her because they would side with Curt and Patty and not to mention they're neighbors so so they're neighbors and I'm sure that they want to keep up their friendship and good rapport but I had thanked her, like, for everything she did for us during that week and with the planning and all the tips.

[324] She was so nice.

[325] And I text her knowing that would be probably the last correspondence I'd have with them.

[326] And that's fine.

[327] That's fine.

[328] We don't want any bridges between Patty and this family.

[329] The last time that I had a text from Patty was when I was on my way to the cemetery.

[330] was the last time I had any contact with any of that family or the Johnsons.

[331] Everything was dead silence.

[332] That whole group of people turned into like cockroaches.

[333] We don't see them in town.

[334] Nobody sees them in town.

[335] Nobody sees them at the grocery store anywhere.

[336] They are gone.

[337] And they live not.

[338] A mile and a half from my son.

[339] Kurt, he works in a different part than I do, but it's the same shift.

[340] So we still see each other, you know what I mean, once in a while.

[341] And he works at a different station than I do, but it's the same shift.

[342] And it's kind of weird.

[343] And that's the weird thing.

[344] I mean, I used to see her all the time because we lived in the same area.

[345] I would pass her driving.

[346] I don't see her.

[347] Nobody sees her.

[348] And it's amazing that once this has come out, how many people have realized that she was never a good person.

[349] Like, we, like so many people have come to us saying that they've had run -ins with her.

[350] Like, oh, yeah, like, we, you know, we remember this time and she was just doing nothing but bashing, like, one of her friends.

[351] and we've, we just had a bad taste in our mouth ever since then.

[352] Or the truth comes out about someone that you know, then how many other people say, oh yeah, like, we're aware.

[353] It's just so odd.

[354] At one point, after the funeral, my children convinced me to actually see a trauma counselor on top of my regular counselor.

[355] So at one point, after Ted had passed, I was seeing two counselors.

[356] and after I told my story to the trauma counselor, because I was having a lot of issues with going back to my house, going, opening that door, you know, all of those things from the trauma from it.

[357] And the one thing that will stick in my head probably forever is she described Patty as a psychopathic narcissist.

[358] And when she said that, I said, what do you mean by that?

[359] She says well this person does not know how she she is soulless she does not know how to love she has never known how to truly love what she is doing is a game it's a sport to her where she gets her high is in the deception is in the deceiving is she says it probably even wasn't about sex it was probably more on how much she can tear a family apart and that she was succeeding doing it.

[360] I'm glad she continues to seek counseling for it because for so many years, you know, she was in counseling for totally wrong reasons, aside from trying to figure out what was going on between her and my father -in -law, you know, I mean, Patty really pushed on her that she had a lying issue, that she was this, she was that.

[361] And one time she went and got like a cat scan, or something, because she thought she had early onset dementia because that's what Patty was telling her, like, oh, you can't remember this and you told me this.

[362] No, that's not how it went.

[363] Blah, blah, blah.

[364] Like, she honestly thought she had issues.

[365] Next time.

[366] You think you know me. You don't know me well at all.

[367] Something was wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[368] Music on the show by the band Gladrags.

[369] You can find them on iTunes.

[370] band camp all over the place.

[371] They're also on Instagram, so check them out.

[372] I'd like to thank the Bishop family for being so vulnerable and brave.

[373] If you want to hang out some more, you can add me on Instagram.

[374] I am at Looky Boo.

[375] L -O -O -K -I -E -B -O -O.

[376] We also have a hashtag, something was wrong, pod on Instagram.

[377] Also, if you are interested in any of the materials, sources, sponsors mentioned on the podcast, you can check them out under the episode and show notes.

[378] Also, we will be having another Q &A episode this season, so start sending your questions in.

[379] You can email me, text me, find me on Insta, whatever you want.

[380] Thank you so much.

[381] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[382] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music.

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