John O. Brennan

[0] Welcome.

[1] Welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[2] Experts on expert.

[3] I'm Dan Shepard.

[4] I'm joined by miniature mouse.

[5] Hi.

[6] Hello.

[7] Super interesting guest today.

[8] John Brennan, who is a former American intelligence officer who served as the director of the CIA from 2013 to 2017.

[9] Boy, it's not often you get to chat with the former director of the CIA.

[10] We got inside knowledge.

[11] We might have got classified information.

[12] I hope so.

[13] They might be coming for us.

[14] He has a new book out now called Undaunted My Fight Against America's Enemies at Home and Abroad.

[15] John is so original.

[16] He was such a methodical conversation, right?

[17] The way he processes info and communicates is just so unique.

[18] Yeah.

[19] I wish I could be in the CIA.

[20] Maybe I am.

[21] Oh, my goodness.

[22] You wouldn't know.

[23] No, you would never blow your cover.

[24] You would be a great operative.

[25] Thank you.

[26] Well, let's find out if John recruits.

[27] It's either of us after this wonderful episode with John Brennan.

[28] Enjoy.

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[32] You might not like this, but I just want to say, on first glance, judging a book by its cover.

[33] You just look like a very kind, nice person.

[34] If I saw you at the grocery store, I would not go.

[35] Oh, that guy was definitely the director of the CEO.

[36] Oh, the glasses are off.

[37] There it is.

[38] There's that steely glaze.

[39] And my wife complains I never smile when I'm on TV.

[40] But usually the things I'm talking about is not reason to smile at all.

[41] I think I'm a nice guy.

[42] Also, you know, I would imagine, too, as you get, like, desensitize the stuff.

[43] I know that when I, it sounds like I'm bragging because I bring this up a lot.

[44] I went on two USO tours to Afghanistan, and when I would talk to the soldiers, it becomes immediately clear what they're used to.

[45] And you could interpret it as them being cavalier, but it's just normal life.

[46] So it doesn't have the heightened emotion and reaction we might expect or be judgmental of.

[47] So I would imagine even in your case, you talk about the stuff all the time, you're not going to have the same shock and awe every time you bring something up.

[48] Right.

[49] And a lot depends on the environment, as you point out, if you're in a war theater.

[50] you tend to have a certain attitude, but context and also the type of conversation you're having, the people you talk to.

[51] So I think sometimes people find it surprising that I sometimes have a sense of humor.

[52] Yeah, yeah.

[53] I would imagine just sometimes when you've been on television, you must, I don't know, maybe not, have a little talk with yourself where you go like, oh yes, remember, this will be the first time people are hearing this and I need to bring a certain level of, I don't know, performance to it a little bit.

[54] Yeah, maybe.

[55] I've had the opportunity to appear in front of Congress multiple times.

[56] And sometimes depending on the issue, as well as the committee I'm appearing in front of.

[57] And, you know, I have to prepare myself for the theatrics that I'm going to witness on the other side of the table.

[58] I don't know how you handle that aspect.

[59] When you see someone peacocking and grandstanding and you know it's just a performance, I would be so irritated by that.

[60] Yeah, well, I'm not a good poker player.

[61] So usually my face reveals my feelings.

[62] And more than a couple of commentators that pointed out my expression on my furrow when a congressman person or a senator says something that is totally foolish.

[63] Right.

[64] Or has no value to the conversation other than they've made some declaration on record that they hope will get quoted or something?

[65] Yes, for their next campaign.

[66] Yeah.

[67] Now, you have a new book called Undaunted, My Fight Against America's Enemies at Home and Abroad.

[68] And I unfortunately have not read it yet.

[69] I will.

[70] because this topic interests me greatly.

[71] But I've read a bunch of excerpts from it, and there isn't a topic that I'm interested in that's not in this book.

[72] There's so many things covered, and it seems so comprehensive.

[73] I guess my first question is, like, how long does it take you to write a book like that and decide what you're going to put in it?

[74] Well, first, you have to have a career that would be willing to write about in a memoir.

[75] So that took me 33 years or so.

[76] And I decided about a year and a half after I left government, that I was going to actually write a memoir because I never thought I would.

[77] But then, after talking with my family and friends and former directors as well, they said that you can really make a contribution to the historical record.

[78] So I was hoping that I was going to be able to get access to my files when I was director so that I could, in fact, recount a lot of my experiences with accuracy.

[79] But unfortunately, since I have irritated Mr. Trump, Mr. Trump directed the CIA not to share anything classified with me. So I had to rely on my memory, as well as some conversations I had with former colleagues.

[80] But all former directors who wrote their memoirs were given prompt and full access to their classified files when they were directors so that they could, in fact, write their memoirs with some degree of not just accuracy, but also a depth of coverage.

[81] Yeah.

[82] Now, what conventionally happens when people retire?

[83] I'll even start with, does an ex -president still have access?

[84] to like classified information or briefings?

[85] Or are they let go of that?

[86] Well, they can request a briefing at any time, a former president.

[87] And they don't get, you know, the daily president's daily brief, which is what they get when they're in office.

[88] But a lot of former presidents and I have brief former presidents who requested a briefing on a certain matter, or if they're going to be traveling overseas or meeting with foreign officials.

[89] They retain their clearances for the rest of their life.

[90] Former directors of CIA also retain their clearances.

[91] It's for the benefit of the government because it allows their successors to contact their predecessors and have conversations about what you think about this person or why did we do it that way or can you give me a little bit of context in terms of this capability or whatever.

[92] So it facilitates those discussions.

[93] So even though Mr. Trump or the White House announced to great fanfare in the summer of 2018 that he was revoking my clearances because I had the audacity to speak out against him.

[94] My clearances were never revoked because there was no legal basis to do so.

[95] However, he did send a written directive to the CIA and the intelligence community forbidding anyone from discussing classified information with me, which is why then the CIA was unable to share my classified files when I was writing my memoir.

[96] So it's probably safe to assume that your access to that will resume here shortly then.

[97] Yeah, I would think that the Biden administration, many of the people I know who I think are going to be joining Mr. President -elect Biden, and I know Joe Biden very well, having worked with them for eight years, I would presume that they're not going to continue a lot of the activities and actions and decisions of Mr. Trump.

[98] So I would only go in to review my classified files for a purpose.

[99] I was granted some access when I was going to be interviewed by the Department of Justice for, you know, the investigative.

[100] that Mr. Barr, the Attorney General, has initiated at Donald Trump's request, but I was granted that access, or given that access, only after I finished writing my manuscript.

[101] And do you have pet interest?

[102] Like, imagine if I were you and I had spent 30 years in this job, I would have been tracking some things towards the end that my own curiosity would really want access.

[103] I would want to be able to check up on some things that I cared deeply about or spent a lot of time trying to help resolve.

[104] I have to imagine just also your own curiosity would want to check in on some things, wouldn't it?

[105] Well, I am very curious about a number of things that worked at throughout the course of my career, but I don't believe that former officials should be allowed to access classified material in order to advance their own maybe personal interests or financial interests or whatever.

[106] There are a number of individuals and former directors who retain clearances because to serve on certain boards of directors or companies that do classified work, it requires individuals to have current security clearances, top secret clearances.

[107] I never pursued any of those types of positions or roles.

[108] So I didn't need the clearances for that purpose.

[109] But I can see why former presidents, vice presidents would need it.

[110] If I had a real reason, and I think if the reason was in the national interest to gain access to something.

[111] For example, if I was invited to go overseas and speak to foreign officials or my former counterparts and I needed to have better sense of what it is that they might, you know, be doing or up to, then I would make that request and I believe the CIA then would grant the access as appropriate.

[112] But I think you can think of even the most simple example of someone taking over some managerial job at a business and they cannot figure out how to get the break room cool.

[113] You want to be able to call the previous guy and go like, hey, what was the trick to get the break room cooled off without making the rest of the building icy cold?

[114] That same thing exists in your job.

[115] Whoever takes over your job certainly has some just questions that they would benefit your knowledge on.

[116] Absolutely.

[117] When I was director, I met with my predecessors many times.

[118] I call them in either collectively because once a year I would have all the former directors and deputy directors in so they could be brought up to date about what's happening inside the agency.

[119] We would talk about what we're doing.

[120] I would seek their feedback and reaction because I think, you know, they have tremendous insight based on their previous experiences.

[121] But also I would ask individual directors to come in so I would have lunch with them to talk about a particular issue or something that they were deeply involved in.

[122] It really helped me. And unfortunately, since I've left government, the only time I was asked to go back in, Gina Haspel, the current director of CIA, after she was confirmed, called me into her office and just, you know, ask a few questions.

[123] But that was before I think I got involved in this, these contra -tempts with Donald Trump.

[124] Before you had the scarlet letter?

[125] Yes.

[126] So I'm going to start with just some of the most generic stuff that I guess we could assume most people know, but that I think maybe some people would not know, which is just the distinction between the CIA and, say, the FBI, and you would be best to delineate that difference for us.

[127] Well, the CIA is a organization of the U .S. intelligence community, which consists of about 17 organizations.

[128] The CIA's mission is to understand what's happening around the world outside of the United States in terms of the threats to our national security interests.

[129] The CIA basically has five missions.

[130] One is to collect intelligence clandestinely.

[131] The CIA officers go overseas and recruit spies so that they can provide CIA information about what's going on in different parts of the world.

[132] Another mission is all -source analysis, which is that the CIA analysts are the ones that take in all the information, whether it be clandestinely acquired or whether it be open source information and provide the assessments to the president and to other senior officials.

[133] Another mission is counterintelligence, trying to understand the threats to the United States that Russia, China, or other countries pose.

[134] Another mission is on the foreign liaison side.

[135] CI officers spent a lot of time interacting with their counterparts around the globe.

[136] I spent a lot of time traveling and speaking to our allies and partners, as well as to the heads of services of Russia and China, because we need to have that interaction.

[137] And then the fifth mission is covert action.

[138] This is when a president decides to do something overseas to try to shape developments and events, but to hide the hand of the U .S. government.

[139] And E. will tap the CIA to carry out those types of activities, such as the CIA's detention interrogation program, the raid against bin Laden.

[140] These are things that are kept quiet and covert until a president decides to uncover them.

[141] So again, the CIA's focus is overseas.

[142] The FBI has the domestic law enforcement responsibility to investigate crimes against federal law, but they also have an intelligence collection responsibility.

[143] So they have confidential contacts.

[144] They will try to get people to provide information about maybe organized crime or narcotics trafficking or even proliferation activities.

[145] They also have representatives overseas.

[146] sees called legal attaches who work in embassies and coordinate closely with their CIA counterparts.

[147] But the real difference is FBI is law enforcement.

[148] CIA is intelligence.

[149] FBI focuses primarily on the domestic scene while CIA focuses on the foreign field.

[150] Okay.

[151] So now as we dive into some of this stuff, I want to say that I have an immense gratitude for the work that the CIA does.

[152] I feel just so grateful that we have such an accomplished agency that is doing the work it does.

[153] And I am also very critical of a lot of the stuff that the CIA has done.

[154] So I just want you to know where I'm coming from.

[155] I share those views on both sides.

[156] Okay, great.

[157] Yeah, I don't think I'm like coming from it from a left or a right.

[158] I just have deep admiration and I have deep criticism as this unfolds.

[159] But one of the things I just wanted to go into as an operation that I found incredibly impressive and one that begged the question to me, why don't we put more resources into this approach?

[160] Could you tell us a little bit about what happened in Afghanistan in the immediate wake of 9 -11 with the CIA?

[161] Well, the CIA had been involved for many years in Afghanistan when the Soviets had occupied Afghanistan.

[162] And the CIA was the organization that worked with a lot of the Afghan rebels, the Mujahideen, the ones that were fighting the Soviet occupation.

[163] And so the CIA worked with, with other services in the region, providing weaponry, providing training, providing assistance to those locals to push the Soviets out, which was successful.

[164] And then once the Soviets were pushed out of Afghanistan, I guess the CIA's presence there became less prevalent and less numerous.

[165] But Osama bin Laden was one of the members of that Mujahideen.

[166] The CIA never really worked with Osama bin Laden when he was a member of that opposition, Afghan opposition.

[167] But after 9 -11, the CIA was tapped immediately to go back into Afghanistan to resurrect a number of those contacts they had with the various Afghan groups.

[168] And there are many different ones of different parts of the country and different ethnicities and languages and so on.

[169] And so CIA officers were the first U .S. government officials on the ground in Afghanistan in the Aftermath 9 -11.

[170] Within two weeks, we had CIA boots on the ground, working with the locals, trying to find out exactly where al -Qaeda was.

[171] It was only around 100 agents, right, or operatives.

[172] It was even less than that initially.

[173] It was only a few dozen that they came in.

[174] They crossed the borders, different borders.

[175] Some of them came in on horseback and on vehicles.

[176] It was in the northern part of Afghanistan.

[177] It was also in the southern part.

[178] And it was a way to try to, again, understand exactly where al -Qaeda members were, where the training centers were, and to understand who within the Afghan environment was willing to work with the CIA to try to crush al -Qaeda.

[179] And so over time, over the subsequent months, the CIA's presence increased.

[180] We were preparing the way for the big U .S. military to come in, but it was, in fact, the CIA blood that was shed first when Mike Spann, a CIA officer, a case officer, who was out there working with the local Afghans, he was killed in November of 2001 when there was an uprising at one of the detention centers for the various elements of al -Qaeda and the Taliban.

[181] And so then soon thereafter, the U .S. military came in in large numbers.

[182] But the CIA frequently has tapped because it's a very agile organization.

[183] Well, they were hugely successful on that mission, though.

[184] They had pretty much taken over this enormous valley with around 100 folks enlisting the help of all the Afghan locals, but the amount of just real estate they were able to get control over is just incredibly impressive, no?

[185] I mean, sometimes they got less successful as we had tens of thousands of people there.

[186] Yeah, well, the CIA went in with a fair amount of money as weaponry, and in Afghanistan, you can frequently get people and tribes to work with you if you're willing to provide support, and money and weapons, you know, are the currencies in Afghanistan.

[187] So al -Qaeda was composed of a lot of non -Afghans.

[188] And so there was a fair number of Afghans who were really resentful of the fact that these, you know, Al -Qaeda members had basically come in and taken over parts of their country.

[189] And so the CIA was looking for the different elements, whether it be in the North, the Northern Alliance and other parts of the country to rally support against it.

[190] So the fact that the CIA had these contacts and were able to then, again, bring them up to date quickly.

[191] and then bring in support and, again, money and weaponry, I think it really made, you know, a crucial difference in terms of those early days.

[192] Now, the people that execute those type, and that was the fifth thing you listed, I forget the wordage you use.

[193] COVID action.

[194] Yeah.

[195] Drawing heavily from special forces, is that safe to say?

[196] Are a lot of those guys seals?

[197] Yes.

[198] The CIA has a paramilitary capability.

[199] It's called the Special Activities Center Division, whatever.

[200] And these are either CIA officers who have been trained in military tactics, paramilitary tactics, and many of them, a very large number of them, are former seals, or green berets or special operations military folks who've left the service and then came over to CIA and then our CIA's paramilitary group.

[201] We also, over the course of the last several decades, CIA paramilitary officers work very closely with the U .S. military's special force.

[202] so that a lot of times these units work very closely together and, like, many times are integrated together.

[203] And so there's movement back and forth.

[204] So, yeah, CIA's paramilitary elements are the ones that are that pointing edge of the spear for CIA to go in.

[205] And they were the ones who worked with the Majahedin earlier on against the Soviets.

[206] And they were also the ones that went in to take the fight directly to al -Qaeda.

[207] So I'm curious, that's one route in.

[208] You yourself, as you said, You were in the CIA for 30 years, and you started as a motorcycle riding dude from New Jersey.

[209] How did you personally climb that 3 ,000 foot ladder up to director of the CIA?

[210] In two minutes.

[211] My people have the same question.

[212] How did I do that?

[213] I had gone to school in Egypt when I was in a junior in college, going to New York.

[214] So I learned some Arabic.

[215] I had some street cred, as you pointed out, you know, maybe riding a motorcycle, wearing an earring, smoking hash, whatever.

[216] Whatever it took.

[217] I was hired by the agency to be an operations officer, hoping that they would be able to deploy me overseas to recruit spies.

[218] When I got into the agency, I felt that my skills and interests were better aligned with the analytic side of the agency.

[219] Well, really quick, you had a psychological examination at that time, and the administrator of that determined you weren't a good candidate for that.

[220] Is that true?

[221] Well, before the CIA hire somebody, they'll conduct a number of tests, you know, polygraph tests as well as psychological testing.

[222] And so when the psychologist reviewed my test, I said that I really wasn't the type of extrovert that would go out and try to cultivate, you know, individuals and try to recruit them as spies.

[223] Woo, powerful women?

[224] I tended to agree with her that I wasn't cut out for it, but I tried to get into the CIA organization.

[225] So I said, well, I really am an extrovert.

[226] I just hired it with my introversion and I was babbling.

[227] I wasn't making much sense at all.

[228] I'm already undercover as an introvert.

[229] Right.

[230] But again, I think it was my foreign experience as well as my Arabic that really, I think, convinced them to take a chance on me. And then I was an analyst, and then I served overseas twice in Saudi Arabia.

[231] I spent five years in Saudi Arabia.

[232] What years were those?

[233] From 82 to 84, I was a rotation with the Department of State, and I was working as a political officer at the U .S. Embassy in Jetta, Saudi Arabia.

[234] And so my wife and I were over there and really enjoyed it.

[235] I was able to go out and spend a lot of time with the tribes.

[236] I went down to the border with Yemen and really got to know the kingdom of Saudi Arabia quite well.

[237] We went back then in 96 to 99.

[238] I was the senior U .S. intelligence officer in Saudi Arabia responsible for the entire kingdom.

[239] And we had our three children with us at the time.

[240] So a total of five years, it was a wonderful experience.

[241] I saw how, you know, U .S. intelligence operated overseas.

[242] How old were your kids during that period?

[243] They were in elementary school.

[244] They were between second and fifth or sixth grade or so.

[245] And are you kind of confined into some kind of military family situation where they're going to school in English and stuff?

[246] Well, by the time I returned to Saudi Arabia in the 90s, the U .S. Embassy had moved to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, which is the capital.

[247] It's in the middle of the country.

[248] And there's a diplomatic quarter where the embassies are located and where the residential compounds are located as well.

[249] So it was rather, you know, it's a bit westernized.

[250] You still had to conform to a lot of the local customs, but it was a diplomatic enclave there.

[251] And then I came back to the States in 99.

[252] I became George Tenet's chief of staff.

[253] George Tenet was the director of CIA at the time.

[254] I had worked with them previously.

[255] And then became deputy executive director of CIA.

[256] I was in the right place at the right time.

[257] I had the opportunity to be President Clinton's daily intelligence briefer back in the early 1990s.

[258] And sometimes it's just, again, having the opportunity when people say, are you willing to do this, are you willing to go overseas?

[259] And I seized it because I was trying to gain as much experience as possible throughout my career.

[260] And I retired from the CIA back in 2005, after 25 years of service.

[261] I went out to the private sector, see what was like to earn a living outside of the appropriations of Congress, which was interesting and challenging, came back in when President Obama was elected, and he was gracious enough to invite me to work in the White House with him.

[262] I had the office underneath the Oval Office.

[263] It was his counterterrorism and Homeland Security Advisor during his first term.

[264] He also had submitted you to be the director and you withdrew that nomination, yeah?

[265] Yeah, after he was elected.

[266] And I had never met him during the campaign, but a week after he was elected, he invited me to Chicago.

[267] We spent some time together.

[268] And then he invited me to be the nominee to CIA.

[269] But given that I was in CIA during some of those controversial periods and advanced interrogation technique period.

[270] Right, yes.

[271] And even though I wasn't in the chain of command at the time or wasn't involved in that program, I was still a senior CIA officer.

[272] And so the left came out of the woodwork and said, hell no, Brennan shouldn't do this.

[273] And I told President Obama he didn't need that type of headache early on in his administration.

[274] So I bowed out.

[275] But in fact, I think it was fortuitous because I got to know President Obama very, very well during those first four years, working with them every day in the West Wing of the White House.

[276] Did you guys ever play one -on -one?

[277] Any basketball?

[278] Not one -on -one, but we took some shots together.

[279] Oh, okay, okay.

[280] And you saw that incredible shot he made in front of Biden, right?

[281] This is a big chip on my shoulder about this.

[282] It was too cool.

[283] You can't look that cool in front of the guy campaigning.

[284] He's got a very, very smooth shot.

[285] You know, he's a lefty.

[286] But, yeah, I taught him everything he knew.

[287] Okay.

[288] Now, you've served under six different administrations, and very conveniently three Republican, three Democratic.

[289] Is there a pattern?

[290] or does each era evolve so much that there isn't a pattern or a stereotype?

[291] Well, there are similarities as well as significant differences, as you can imagine.

[292] All six of the presidents that I serve from Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama all approached their responsibilities and duties with great seriousness and tried to do everything they could to advance the interests of the American people and the United States.

[293] And even though I disagreed with a number of the policy decisions that those six presidents made, I never once doubted that they were doing things again in the best interests of the country and we're not doing things to advance their own personal interests.

[294] And so that was a strong, I think, similarity.

[295] They all had different ways of absorbing information and interacting with people, but they all respected the intelligence profession.

[296] They all admired intelligence professionals.

[297] But that pattern or similarity really did change when Donald Trump became president.

[298] He, you know, was unlike any individual who had occupied the overall.

[299] office previously.

[300] So, though they were Democrats, Republicans when they were elected, and they continued to, I think, have partisan, you know, feelings and sentiments, they really tried to represent all Americans and conducted, I think, their responsibilities in a very, very appropriate, thoughtful, and admirable manner.

[301] Well, what's interesting is we've interviewed a few mayors, and they've both had similar things to say in that, regardless of whatever your politics are, once you get the job, the reality of running the city becomes your number one mission.

[302] It transcends whatever political opinion you might have.

[303] You have to get the trash picked up.

[304] You have to get this and that done.

[305] It becomes a very pragmatic job.

[306] And I would imagine the Democrats must enter that job with a history of some cynicism and loyalty to civil liberties and some maybe distrust of the CIA, whereas I would say historically, the Republicans had seemed to be more embracing of the intelligence community.

[307] Are those fair assessments historically?

[308] Yes, I think that's right.

[309] Certainly over the last 50 years or so.

[310] Yeah, and then so Trump came in and he is on a Republican ticket and a Republican president, and yet he seemed to have the least amount of trust in the intelligence community or, you know, disdain almost at times.

[311] Well, he also came in with the least understanding of the intelligence community, the least appreciation for the U .S. government's role organization ethos.

[312] He has no sense of history.

[313] And so he was really ill -prepared, ill -equipped, and lacking, I think, the attitude that is needed.

[314] So although he embraced some of the Republican positions because he knew that that was going to help solidify his standing with the Republican base with a very conservative right -wing base, I don't think he has strong feelings about any of these policy issues, quite frankly.

[315] He just tries to determine which way his political winds are going to blow and then try to, you know, put his sales out accordingly.

[316] Well, the reason I brought up the mayors is I would imagine, and I've thought a lot about this with Obama, who's someone I deeply admire and just love, truly.

[317] And there have been a couple things that, I guess, ended up shocking me once he was the president.

[318] one of them being his militaristic bent.

[319] I guess not that I think he made any wrong decisions, just I thought, oh, that's a little different than what I was expecting.

[320] And I guess my conclusion was, you must get in that office and you must get that first brief.

[321] Your eyes must open up very wide to what's going on around the world and the reality that you're the person who's been tasked with protecting all of us.

[322] And it must be a big, eye -opening experience to really start understanding what's happening around the world in its totality.

[323] Yes, and you said you were surprised by his militaristic bent.

[324] I don't agree with that characterization, but I can understand how you and others have that feeling because of a lot of the counterterrorism practices in particular.

[325] Like I said, really quick, I just want to be very clear.

[326] I didn't disagree with any of them per se.

[327] I just was like, oh, I guess that's not what I was expecting.

[328] Yeah, yeah.

[329] Stay tuned for more armature expert, if you dare.

[330] What's up, guys?

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[340] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[341] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[342] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[343] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[344] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[345] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[346] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[347] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[348] Well, as you point out, once somebody becomes president, they have the responsibility to protect American lives, wherever they may be.

[349] That's the foremost responsibility of a president of the United States to ensure the well -being, the welfare, the prosperity of the American people.

[350] And I think Barack Obama had very strong idealistic views, and still does.

[351] But I think, and what I talk about in the book, is that over the course of his presidency, he was confronted with the harsh reason.

[352] reality of the threats, the challenges, the issues that he had to deal with, that he had to make some very, very weighty decisions about whether to act or not act.

[353] And either course of action has implications.

[354] And so, just like Barack Obama, I wish I never had to be in a position to either decide or to recommend that some type of lethal action be taken.

[355] Yeah.

[356] The reason why it was taken was to save innocent lives.

[357] And war is hell.

[358] It absolutely is hell.

[359] And, you know, I'm sure President Obama doesn't regret what he did, but wishes that he didn't have to do a lot of those things.

[360] But that obligation, I think he took very, very seriously.

[361] And he agonized, just the way I did, agonized over these decisions to try to do the right thing.

[362] Well, that's the great quandary is you have your own philosophical set of values and how you wish everyone could work out their differences and be that through diplomacy or sanctions or all these different things.

[363] And then the stark reality of, well, not everyone's playing by those rules.

[364] So you also have to account for the people that are not in line with your philosophical point of view or playing by your rules and you really can't let them weaponize your ethics against you in some way.

[365] Right.

[366] And how do you stay true to your values, your principles, when you're living in a world where, as you say, the others are not playing by the same rules and principles and ethics that you have?

[367] And that's why I talked in the book about how when I went to Fordham University, I majored in political science, but my philosophy courses were the ones that were most impactful on me, especially dealing with issues like just war theory and trying to understand exactly what are the considerations that go into the waging of war.

[368] You know, in terms of also what type of considerations have to come in when you're going to take a strike against a terrorist, issues about, you know, whether it is wise, whether it's judicious, whether it's proportional.

[369] It's all those factors that come into play.

[370] So, yeah, I consider myself an idealist, but at the same time, I consider myself a realist that, unfortunately, we don't have the opportunity all the time to avoid some very, very tough decisions.

[371] Now, let me ask you this.

[372] having been there for six different administrations, which were the ebbs and which were the flows of the CIA's power of persuasion?

[373] Obviously, I would imagine in the wake of an attack, a terrorist attack, we're going to defer much more to the input of the intelligence community.

[374] And in a long stretch of peace, I have to imagine that input gets devalued.

[375] Yeah, so much depends on how a president views that intelligence mission and how it wants to use the CIA.

[376] During the eight years of the Reagan administration, Bill Casey was the director for five or six of those years who had a very close relationship with Reagan, and Casey had some very strong views about what should happen, you know, a Ron Contra happened under Casey's watch.

[377] And Reagan gave him a fair amount of leash and latitude to do these things.

[378] And so a lot depends on the aggressiveness, I guess, of a president as well as a CIA director.

[379] But over the course of the last 20 years, terrorism really has been very much at the forefront of the intelligence mission, trying to understand the nature of the threats that are out there, trying to dismantle and destroy al -Qaeda, trying to find bin Laden, doing a lot of that.

[380] And the CIA was, in large respects, very much instrumental in doing all of this.

[381] Bill Clinton, George Bush, and Barack Obama, I think, saw that the CIA's capabilities, its authorities, its expertise, its presence in parts of the world were really critically important to trying to mitigate the threats against the United States.

[382] Now, I think in the aftermath of 9 -11, there were some decisions that were made and some authorities given to the CIA that I think were inappropriate.

[383] But the CIA is almost duty -bound to salute when they're asked to do something.

[384] something that is duly authorized by a president of the United States, which is deemed lawful by the Department of Justice.

[385] And that detention interrogation program, and even those enhanced interrogation techniques and waterboarding, were deemed lawful by the Department of Justice.

[386] They were authorized by the President of the United States.

[387] And so that's why I take issue when people refer to it as torture, because torture is illegal by definition in U .S. law.

[388] And you can criticize the Department of Justice determinations at that time.

[389] And I do disagree with those memos that written by John U. and others.

[390] But those CIA officers were really looking at what they needed to do in order to stop this existential threat to U .S. security because we knew that Al -Qaeda was planning second and third wave attacks after 9 -11 strikes.

[391] And they were chemical, biological, and nuclear options that they were exploring.

[392] So CIA was racing against time.

[393] And I think CIA officers also felt that they bore some responsibility for not being able to stop the 9 -11 attacks themselves.

[394] My position on the waterboarding is I don't think falls in line with the left or right cleanly, which is I actually would be fine with it if there was pretty good evidence that yielded the results.

[395] And my objection to it is just so many different people in your line of work as well as psychologists and experts saying it's not actually the most effective strategy for getting information.

[396] So once that's been determined, then it makes that for me a very clean, well, then why the fuck would we do this if it's not even the best way?

[397] But yes, Would I waterboard someone to prevent a nuclear weapon from going off in Manhattan a million times?

[398] But if that's not going to yield any result, then why are we doing it?

[399] Yeah, and there are differences of you regarding efficacy, whether or not they did result in some useful intelligence.

[400] And some useful intelligence was obtained after the application of these enhanced interrogation techniques.

[401] Now, it is unknowable whether or not that information could have been obtained maybe more quickly or more thoroughly if they were not employed.

[402] So there's efficacy, but then there's also morality.

[403] And I think, to your point, I think there are almost dual considerations here.

[404] And I object to that program on both those grounds, on the moral ground, as well as on the efficacy grounds.

[405] I also believe that it was inappropriate for the CIA to be asked to do that.

[406] CIA had no history of having a detention program.

[407] It had no history of doing interrogations of these individuals.

[408] The U .S. military, the FBI, they're the ones that have had that experience.

[409] Unfortunately, in the Bush -Cheney administration, they wanted to do everything sort of covertly, and the CIA was, you know, ready and available there.

[410] And so they opted for that, which, again, I think was a mistake.

[411] Now, I guess I asked how much power of persuasion they've had over various periods, because I see a little bit of a parallel.

[412] Again, it's exactly what I want the CIA to do, but I also want someone above the whole thing recognizing that.

[413] I would infer that CIA is similar to an oncologist, and you have a singular goal of kill.

[414] cancer cells.

[415] And within that singular goal of killing cancer cells, you might lose sight of what someone's overall experience of dying will be like in the pursuit of that.

[416] So I think it would be the nature of the CIA to be singularly focused on threats and very, very concerned with threats, as they should be.

[417] But I also think therein lies a potential problem when advising the president.

[418] Does that make any sense?

[419] Yeah.

[420] And I think one of the issues that the CIA had to confront and CIA officers had to confront is that I don't think the end always justifies the means.

[421] And I think sometimes people feel that way.

[422] And I think there needs to be principled intelligence work, ethical intelligence work.

[423] Otherwise, we're going to resort to the types of tactics that our adversaries use, that the terrorists use.

[424] I mean, CIA is not going to go out there and just, you know, off somebody because they suspect that they are terrorist or even if they have intelligence that it is.

[425] There has to be a set of, I think, rules of ethics of principles that govern the approach.

[426] And that's why I think depending on who is at the helm of CIA, as well as who is in the White House, how are you going to wield that very, very formidable intelligence weapon, which it is in many respects?

[427] What are you going to do to try to gain insight into what the threats are?

[428] To what extent are you going to go into that digital environment, that cybersphere and try to gain access to information that could, in fact, compromise privacy and civil liberties of, you know, U .S. citizens.

[429] Yeah.

[430] So there's just a lot of issues that I think really have to be looked at from the standpoint of, again, efficacy, necessity, as well as appropriateness and consistency, not just with the rule of law, but also with our ethics and values as a country.

[431] And I think there needs to be some level of acceptance that it is and will be an imperfect pursuit.

[432] I would compare it to, I majored in anthropology.

[433] So there was a time when some anthropologists taught some folks to separate where they were washing their dishes and where they were going to the bathroom.

[434] Great.

[435] It saved a bunch of people.

[436] Then there was an enormous famine and way more people died of starvation.

[437] And we learn this concept of blowback, which has been pretty well documented with the CIA in terms of, say, you brought it up earlier, helping the Russians.

[438] Well, great.

[439] Now we also have all these Mujah Hadim that know how to use these rocket launchers and they have the rocket launchers.

[440] And now we leave.

[441] And then in this void, this happens.

[442] That's one documented case.

[443] I would imagine Iran with helping keep a bit of a puppet leader in charge and then a very fundamentalist faction overthrowing him and then giving rise to tons of fundamentalist regimes around the Middle East.

[444] So many of them can be very well -intentioned and their outcomes are largely unknowable or hard to mitigate.

[445] Isn't that the great challenge of all this?

[446] Yeah.

[447] Intelligence and national security and foreign policy, or messy, you may have the best of intentions and the best of objectives, but sometimes, you know, a lot of times, it doesn't turn out the way you want.

[448] And also, in trying to pursue those objectives, sometimes you do things that have other ramifications and implications that can be adverse to what it is that you're trying to accomplish.

[449] And it's one thing that I really admired about President Obama.

[450] He would seem to always be playing four or five -dimensional chess because he really had a good understanding about if he did this on this one chess board in terms of these issues, how is it going to affect the United States' position and opportunities on this other board?

[451] He had this amazing ability to see all the different connections and try to think ahead three, four, five moves on all the chess boards, which is, I think, critically important.

[452] Yeah, and I'll go directly into that.

[453] I just wanted to say, would you ever get frustrated in your role as the director?

[454] that the failures are generally well -known and documented, yet you aren't really allowed to brag or advertise the big successes, you know, the attack that was thwarted.

[455] You know, maybe you intercepted some plutonium going somewhere.

[456] Generally, you can't really come out and say like, hey, look what we did in the prose category, can you?

[457] No, but you also cannot refute things that are, you know, just totally, totally specious as far as the types of things that CIA has done.

[458] Because otherwise, you'd be stomping out these brushbriars all the time.

[459] You know, somebody claims that the CIA assassinated somebody.

[460] Well, if you say, no, he didn't, then what happens when something else goes on?

[461] You have to say it.

[462] So, yes, it was frustrating, certainly as a director.

[463] But when you grow up in the intelligence profession and business, you understand that your successes are not going to be, you know, the source of ticker tape parades.

[464] Very rarely does the CIA success, you know, make it to the front headlines of the paper.

[465] Bin Laden was a good example of one that did.

[466] unfortunately.

[467] But there is so many in CIA's history, both on the failure side as well as on the success side, that will continue to be shrouded in secrecy.

[468] Did they get declassified after some period of time, or are there some that know?

[469] There's a regular process to declassify certain materials.

[470] And some things are, but some things will always remain.

[471] You know, even things related to the JFK assassinations.

[472] There's a lot of things there that, you know, documents, cables, other things that for a variety of reasons, usually it's for, sources and methods protection.

[473] That's what it has to really be.

[474] It can't be just because it's embarrassing.

[475] But I would love to hear the greatest hits.

[476] So I know some of the greatest stumbles, I would love to read about the greatest hits.

[477] I think it would be of value.

[478] Yeah, and a lot of them are things that were done heroically by women and men of CIA over the years, putting themselves at great risk to get behind enemy lines or to go into adversarial countries and try to collect clandestinely information, meeting with contacts and sources, and CIA officers going to great lens to protect the identities of those who spy for us overseas.

[479] Really, the creativity, the ingenuity, as well as just the skill and daring is really quite impressive.

[480] And CIA, over the course of its history, have had many, many of those instances where, again, valor and bravery and success really were the result of these operations.

[481] Well, I hope the office party was really rowdy.

[482] I hope at least internally you guys got to really high -five one another, if not in public.

[483] Frequently in individual components, if something happens that people are holding their breath, and I was involved in many of those things where I would hold my breath because something was going wrong.

[484] And a lot of things were at risk.

[485] When things go well, there's some champagne corks that are popped.

[486] Okay, now back to the multiple chess boards.

[487] What I think you would be really qualified to help us understand, And this was one of my frustrations over the last four years is what felt like a pretty naive understanding of what national security entails.

[488] So I think keeping our safety is a little more complicated than it may appear.

[489] On the surface, you could look at maybe aid we're giving to a country and think, why on earth are we subsidizing that country?

[490] Or why do we invest so much in NATO?

[491] But that investment we make in other countries is really pennies on the dollar, isn't it?

[492] when measured against what a full -scale war costs us?

[493] Yeah, although the United States, I think, is unrivaled in terms of its superpower status on the military, political, economic fronts, the real strength of our international position is due in large part to those relationships that we have established over the course, particularly of the last 75 years since World War II, the alliances, the partnerships, the leadership role that the United States has played in multilateral organizations, helping to forge different types of agreements.

[494] And so it's very important for the United States to continue to leverage that because Russia and China are our main global competitors.

[495] And it's important for the United States to not just rely on those relationships as we do and help to invest in democracy in those countries because democratic systems are going to be ones that we want to align with.

[496] But also it allows us to use those relationships to push back against the Russians and the Chinese and others, whether it be at the UN or whether it be as a result of Russia's activities vis -à -vis Ukraine or takeover annexation of Crimea and other types of things.

[497] So if the United States does not have that suasion, that moral standing, those relationships, its ability to really counter a lot of our adversaries around the globe is far more limited.

[498] Well, and we can easily imagine a country on the brink of a famine, and we know that in the event of this famine, there's this military rebel faction that will most certainly gain power of the country should they fall into actual famine.

[499] Like there's all these many layers that we're hoping to avoid three steps ahead, right?

[500] That might not seem on the surface when you're reading the newspaper why we give this country or that country this amount of money.

[501] You might not be being told the whole story, which is this growing coup happening.

[502] And if we allow this, you know, to happen, then we're just ushering them in.

[503] And now we're looking at an actual war.

[504] Yeah, you're right.

[505] There are multiple objectives frequently or multiple considerations when the United States is involved in certain issues.

[506] I worked very closely on the Yemen issue when I was in the Obama administration.

[507] And I think President Obama was surprised at how much time he had to spend on Yemen.

[508] It was certainly a locus of very, very dangerous terrorist activity on the part of Al -Qaeda and the Raven Peninsula.

[509] And a lot of the attacks were, launched out of Yemen.

[510] But there was also a real humanitarian crisis.

[511] The country of Yemen has been impoverished and it has been beset by foreign intervention.

[512] And so when we pursue our counterterrorism programs and activities, I always wanted to keep in mind that the Yemeni people also needed help.

[513] They needed the assistance.

[514] We needed to help develop their institutions of governance and of justice and making sure that their law enforcement and military and security services were going to be professionalized and not just fall into, you know, this self -destructive activity.

[515] And some of those objectives frequently are at odds with one another.

[516] Because as you point out, sometimes you're trying to do something in a part of the country, but you know that there are extremist or terrorist groups that are there.

[517] And you say, well, we don't want to do anything that's going to allow those terrorist groups to thrive.

[518] Well, no, you don't want to do that.

[519] But the same time, do you really want to drive the enemy people into the ground?

[520] I mean, the amount of poverty and malnourishment and medical diseases and stuff.

[521] It's just, in Yemen, it's just awful.

[522] And that's why the United States, I think, has a particular responsibility to look at the variety of concerns and interests and objectives that we need to pursue in these countries.

[523] Well, and if we recognize that in countries where opportunity is prevalent and fulfillment is obtainable, that the drive towards fundamentalism, militaristic actions, those things are all inversely related, right?

[524] So we benefit, generally from countries flourishing and being democratic.

[525] And that could be a lot cheaper for us to help those places be flourishing with opportunity than deal with the result of no opportunity.

[526] Absolutely.

[527] And Somalia is another good example of a country that really has just been so maltreated, both by its people as well as outside.

[528] I can remember in the Obama administration, there were regulations or rules, policies against allowing al -Shabaab, which was the Somali extremist terrorist group, to gain any financial benefit at all from anything that was going on.

[529] When we were trying to send assistance into Somalia to get into those areas of the camps and malnourished areas, the distributors of these assistants had to provide taxes, tolls, to those who own the roads.

[530] And the ones that owned the roads were al -Shabaab.

[531] And so a lot of people were opposed to allowing the assistance to get in because al -Shabaab was going to get, you know, hundreds of dollars, or thousands of dollars.

[532] And so I pushed for relaxing that because I just thought that the benefits that would accrue to the people who were starving outweighed whatever, you know, monetary gain al -Shabaab would get.

[533] It wasn't going to really affect al -Shabaab's lethal capabilities, but it was going to make a difference in the lives of the people.

[534] Oh, that would be my deepest frustration if I were you, is knowing that you could cherry -pick for a headline, we're funding this rebel group, as opposed to we've sent this much aid and prevented this many people from being angry towards the West, whatever it is, that every one of these global geopolitical issues are so complex.

[535] And at best, you're hoping to get a decision that was 60 % good and 40 % bad.

[536] And the expectation from everyone here is that they're 100 % good options.

[537] Absolutely.

[538] And it's frequently also a domestic element.

[539] to it.

[540] And Cuba is a good example.

[541] For 60 years, that Island Nation, I think, has unfortunately been beset by, you know, misgovernment.

[542] But here's the United States, big, powerful United States.

[543] And one of the reasons why the Obama administration decided to reestablish relations with Cuba was to try to incentivize the Cuban government to start to relax a lot of its oppressive policies.

[544] But, you know, then when the Trump administration came in, that was stopped, you know, immediately because of a very strong anti -Cuba government lobby here in the United States.

[545] And the same thing I think is true when it comes to Iran.

[546] There are a lot of people who are absolutist in their views, and they will oppose any type of opening that may, in fact, you know, provide any type of perceived or real benefit to those individuals that they adamantly oppose.

[547] And it's very, very unfortunate because it's not either or.

[548] Right, right, right.

[549] It has a mix of it.

[550] And, again, I think President Obama recognized that when it came to Canada.

[551] Cuba, when it came to Iran, when it came to other of these challenges, he recognized that the United States is not just going to be able to, you know, reverse the situation because we want to.

[552] It's that we really have to find a way to maneuver to a better place for those involved.

[553] Yeah, it's the total lack of downriver thinking that kind of plagues everyone.

[554] Now, on that topic of the bizarre ways that are national security and maybe not what you would think of immediately when you think of national security, but many people, many, experts believe that climate change will have serious national security implications.

[555] And I'm curious if you believe that and if you do, could you explain how a changing climate could ultimately threaten us?

[556] Well, in fact, I tweeted out, I don't know, it was four or six weeks ago, or saying that I think that climate change is the most serious national security and international security issue that we face in the coming decades.

[557] It already has had, I think, a very serious impact.

[558] when you look at the rising seas and how it is pushing coastal communities out and into cities, the dislocations of people, employment opportunities, as well as just economic issues, showing the migration of people across borders.

[559] We see what's happening in places in Africa that it's led to the massive movements of people.

[560] We see the melting ice caps.

[561] It's led, in fact, there was a piece in the paper today about the, you know, Russian, the United States vying for, you know, the competition or buying for access to a lot of the rare earth minerals that are up there.

[562] There are so many national security implications of it that if we continue to go down this road, I think there's just going to be even more and more challenges that we face, you know, the fires, the extreme weather patterns.

[563] It has economic, political, social, and cultural impacts that will have a national security impact on the United States as well as countries around the world, as well as the competition for resources, for power.

[564] And the fact that it's going at a pace that if we don't take action soon, it's going to accelerate.

[565] And these various trends are going to intensify.

[566] And the ability to not even reverse it, I think we'll pass that.

[567] We can't reverse these things.

[568] But to try to stem the rate of acceleration, I think, is critically important.

[569] And the fact that we're still, you know, debating.

[570] whether or not we should phase out fossil fuels because of the tremendous impact on, you know, the atmosphere.

[571] These are things that, unfortunately, given the fact that we're involved in this partisan bickering over almost trivial stuff, and we're ignoring the bigger issues like climate change, like the digital environment and how we're going to grapple with those problems there, it just shows that we really need to get our act together, both internally United States as well as internationally, if we're going to have an effective, concerted effort to try to stem some of these more strategic challenges that are out there.

[572] But unfortunately, it frequently gets into the too hard -to -do category.

[573] And with our unfortunate political election cycles, as people are worrying about how are they going to acquire enough funding for their next election campaign, they're not focusing on these substantive issues.

[574] When I listen to the congressional hearings, It's embarrassing when I hear people talking about whether it be technological issues or other issues.

[575] There's not that depth of understanding and attention, I think, that is needed.

[576] Yeah, I mean, just in its simplest form, stability is what we desire for all of our neighbors around the world.

[577] In stable countries, we have less problems.

[578] And environmental change is, at the very least, incredibly destabilizing.

[579] It is.

[580] And unfortunately, I think a lot of the recent trends, friends globally in countries that having to deal with these very, very serious challenges, democracy is messy.

[581] And I think too many governments and countries are opting now for more authoritarian practices.

[582] I think that's one of the reasons why Donald Trump was able to, you know, become president because he was appealing to those individuals who want a strong man to sort of deal with these issues.

[583] And it doesn't matter if, you know, the person is just speaking lies, basically.

[584] And unfortunately, the Chinese model, which, you know, as she Jinping, who's the head of government, military, and party, you know, he doesn't have to deal with, you know, elections or this messy democracy stuff.

[585] And I think that's a very, very dangerous trend that we're seeing around the globe.

[586] Yeah, I'm sympathetic to actually the folks, because complexity and nuance is exhausting, and I understand the desire for binary.

[587] I understand the desire for their good, they're evil.

[588] That's a shithole country.

[589] That's this country.

[590] Like, it's not that I can't understand the appeal.

[591] I just wish everyone had more of an appetite for complexity, I guess.

[592] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[593] So there's a great documentary on HBO right now about the Russian troll factory.

[594] I imagine you saw it.

[595] You might even be involved in it somehow.

[596] Yeah, it was in there.

[597] Okay, great, great.

[598] I'm not done with that.

[599] I think I'm only halfway through the first one.

[600] But, you know, there's this interesting predicament we're in, which is we have had enormous military dominance throughout the world.

[601] And that is really afforded us because we have this enormous GDP and we give a pretty huge percentage of that GDP.

[602] We earmark it for defense.

[603] So the financial barrier has kept Russia's military power from keeping pace with ours.

[604] But on the internet, there is no barrier for entry.

[605] It's very affordable to be on the internet carrying out missions.

[606] And I have this bizarre fear that with the history of the Russian chess players, okay, they have historically been much better at chess.

[607] And so if we're just going head to head with the mind to mind without any advantage of our GDP, that makes me nervous.

[608] Could you tell us what we're facing right now with Russia in how on earth we will employ our great resources to give us some advantage over just heads -up hacker war?

[609] Well, resources certainly are very useful in terms of defending a country.

[610] You need that.

[611] But it's not just the amount of weaponry you have.

[612] It is the type of weapons you have.

[613] It's also how you employ them, how you use them to leverage them.

[614] One of the reasons why the North Koreans, Kim Jong -un, you know, have been so successful, they wanted a nuclear capability because they see that as a leveler as far as dealing with the big powers, especially the United States.

[615] It's a real deterrent.

[616] So with the technological advancements that have been taking place over the last civil decades and the ability to put either munitions on target or to exploit that digital environment in order to disrupt, disable, destroy the mechanisms for using weaponry or using capabilities and resources, that is something that I think we, the United States, need to continue to work on and refine because, yes, Russia has a very formidable nuclear weapons arsenal.

[617] That's one of the reasons why they, you know, are a major global competitor.

[618] China doesn't have as large a nuclear capability, but it has one.

[619] But nuclear weapons alone are not going to be what, is going to make a difference in the future.

[620] I think there are other types of things.

[621] I mentioned digital, very sophisticated cyber actors that are out there, working on behalf of the Russians or the Chinese or, you know, non -state actors that also have tremendous capabilities in that area.

[622] What are the areas in terms of genetic engineering or different types of biomedical exploration and experimentation?

[623] When I was at the White House and as a Homeland Security and Counterism Advisor, I really got to know a lot about the biological agent field.

[624] And it's a scary field that you don't need an actual military weapon.

[625] If there are these biological agents that are developed and then distributed, they can cause great havoc both in terms of deaths, but also the psychological impact.

[626] So I do think that the United States, looking out over the next 80 years of the century, really has to anticipate the different mechanisms and means.

[627] that adversaries and players are going to use in that international environment, and it's not just going to be tanks and planes, nor drones and missiles.

[628] It's going to be other types of things in order to leverage capabilities and frequently insidious ones that can really make a difference as far as trying to push one's agenda.

[629] You know, I think we're starting to learn, thank goodness, with the documentary you're in and also, say, the social dilemma.

[630] Social dilemma.

[631] We're learning that we have been led down paths with technology.

[632] And quite often, the holder of the reins has been actors in Russia, actors in China.

[633] And I guess what I'm looking for from you is a blankie.

[634] Why are we positioned to outcompete them if it ultimately is just devious plans that can be unleashed on the internet without any huge cost to the actors?

[635] Well, I think there are a lot of things that are going on inside the U .S. government and inside the U .S. scientific community that give me confidence and hope that we're going to be able to sort of work on these issues in the future.

[636] A lot of things don't see the light of day, but there are a lot of super secret programs and Department of Defense and other places to try to understand what our adversaries might be throwing at us so that we can develop some type of defensive systems in order to counter them, as well as to figure out how things can be developed on the offensive side, even before our enemies do it.

[637] not for us to employ it, but again, to understand just the limits of science and technology.

[638] When I think about it over the last 40 years, when I started CIA back in 1980, we didn't even have personal computers on our desks.

[639] There has been such an acceleration of technological advancement.

[640] And people who are born today or, you know, 10 years ago, or so they don't understand just how rapid that change has been.

[641] When I look out of the next 20, 30, 50 years, that is just going to continue at an even an accelerated rate, and it's going to fundamentally change our lives, just our daily lives, but also is going to change the ability of individuals or countries to be able to exploit science, technology, you name it, in order to advance their interests.

[642] And unfortunately, we have a world that is composed of people who are doing things for the betterment of mankind, but we also have individuals who are trying to find ways to hurt others.

[643] And that's where I think the responsibility, of government, of the President of the United States, of the CIA and others, is to try to understand all of those shoals that are out there that really could be quite disastrous for our country as a whole.

[644] I'm so happy that there are instruments of the government working against that.

[645] I mean, we're very vulnerable.

[646] Now, the personal weight of your job, I guess every single time I watch a movie with CIA operatives, my immediate thought is there's no fucking way I'm not telling my wife stuff.

[647] There's just no way.

[648] I think everyone that watches this stuff goes, yeah, but you'd tell your wife, or you'd tell your husband, or you'd whatever it is.

[649] What is the toll of being in a relationship and having an enormous wall up from some sector of your life?

[650] Or do you tell your wife?

[651] You can tell us.

[652] We won't tell anyone.

[653] We'll mute your answer.

[654] It does take a toll.

[655] And as I relate to my book, my wife and I, we've been married.

[656] 42 years, but after my joining the agency, within the first year, we separated for a year is because I was taking my obligations, you know, very seriously as I needed to, but she was no longer a part of my life, you know, that she was used to.

[657] And I didn't do a good enough job of trying to explain to her exactly why I couldn't.

[658] It was more of a wall that was created.

[659] And so I would always tell new CI officers when I would administer the oath of office to them that they needed to be mindful, not just of their professional responsibilities, but also their personal obligations on the home front to try to ensure that you give the type of love and support to those that provide you the type of love and support to do your jobs.

[660] But on the Bin Laden raid that I was involved in, my wife, Kathy, didn't know about it until the night that it actually happened.

[661] Oh, I'd be pissed at you if I were her.

[662] I mean, come on.

[663] You're going to kill Osama and you're not going to tell me. Yeah, well, I called her up and I said, you know, I turned on the TV.

[664] because the president's going to make an announcement to the world and you're going to be very excited and happy about it.

[665] And I think she recognized that I had certain responsibilities and obligations that, first of all, I didn't want to burden other people with the secrecy that's required because I'm not that they're going to do something willfully, but they could, in fact, inadvertently say something that could, in fact, compromise a very, very sensitive mission.

[666] So I think, you know, once the spouses and family members, you know, understand exactly what the obligations are and responsibilities are of the officers, I think they obviously are very supportive.

[667] But in my experience, my secrets made me feel very lonely.

[668] I feel very isolated in my secrets.

[669] And I wonder if you have experienced that sense of loneliness.

[670] Well, there are times, but also the fact that I could talk with my deputy or the other people inside the CIA and work it through.

[671] And then we'd go down to the White House and I'd be in the situation room with the president and others.

[672] So we had a cocoon that was around us, but we could share everything, you know, within that environment.

[673] But when we go home, we talk to our neighbors or our family or friends or whatever, then you have to really, you know, it's sort of almost a schizophrenia.

[674] Yeah, yeah, very compartmental I have to imagine people are constantly trying to get shit out of you.

[675] Is that safe to say?

[676] Like, if I was talking to you at a party and I noticed you had a few scotches, I'd be trying to charm the shit out of you to get at least some yummy tidbit.

[677] I mean, you're doing it right now.

[678] Yeah, well, but I'm doing it professionally now.

[679] But I'm saying I'd be even more scandalous if you and I were hanging somewhere.

[680] Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I decided to write the memoir, because so much of the intelligence work is shrouded in secrecy and mystery.

[681] And people have these wildly, you know, wild ideas about it.

[682] And so I decided I was going to at least lift the shroud a little bit.

[683] And I do think there needs to be more transparency in terms of what the intelligence community does.

[684] because without that transparency, it just leads to all these wild stories and allegations about, you know, abuse and misuse of authorities.

[685] But over time, I think especially since I became more comfortable with having this sort of dual personality, one where I could talk openly about secrets and one where I had to protect it, you get more used to it.

[686] And so you could, you know, if you gave me lots of bourbons or whatever, I still would, you know, not, if you didn't have clearances, I wouldn't share the secrets with you.

[687] Is there a personality type when you guys are recruiting that you look for, or is it just willy -nilly?

[688] And can I join the CIA?

[689] Have you ever fast -tracked anyone to agent status?

[690] Absolutely.

[691] There are 63 different types of professional disciplines in CIA.

[692] So you have people that you want to be able to go out and actually work as a spy and recruit spies overseas.

[693] But you have analysts, you have logisticians, you have security officers, you have lawyers, you have science, You have engineers, technologists.

[694] And so the CIA really has to be almost self -reliance.

[695] So you basically develop a community of experts from all the different areas.

[696] You want to have someone who is trustworthy.

[697] You want to have somebody who really is committed to, you know, this country's security.

[698] Check, check, check.

[699] So far from Monica.

[700] Just check, check, okay, continue.

[701] You have to be humble, and that's the correct.

[702] I'm out of it, but okay.

[703] And a sense of teamwork.

[704] Because no matter how good you are or how smart you are, when you come into the CIA, you're going to be surrounded by a lot of smart and very talented people.

[705] And the people I saw flame out in CIA were the ones that wanted to do things on their own, as opposed to really try to leverage the skills and capabilities of others around you.

[706] Yeah, that's my strike, probably.

[707] Yeah, that's a big strike for both of us.

[708] Okay, one last question.

[709] It's just a juicy, gossipy question.

[710] Now, I have a good buddy, Mike, who works for the FBI, and I've always been interested.

[711] and asking him, like, you know, you guys are always carrying money and you're paying informants and, like, you're trusted with all this money.

[712] You know, what's the fail say for that?

[713] And he said, well, we take polygraphs all the time.

[714] Like, they constantly have to come back and take polygraphs.

[715] I want to know, what's the biggest chunk of change an agents ever taken off with?

[716] Well, it's probably unknown.

[717] Okay.

[718] I guess is there anyone in the public sphere that you're allowed to tell me?

[719] because I would just be interested.

[720] Because sometimes I know, even in reading blowback, like some of these payments to the Mujahideen were in the millions.

[721] Like, it's a lot of money transferring from here to there.

[722] Yeah, multiple millions.

[723] And I must say that the overwhelming majority of CIA officers are honest and trustworthy.

[724] But like any organization, you're made up of people.

[725] And people are imperfect.

[726] And some people are far more imperfect than others.

[727] And so the CIA has had bad apples over the years.

[728] We've had people who have worked for the Russians while they're, you know, CIA officers, you know, and admitted treason against the country.

[729] And I'm sure that there were a number of officers who put some money in their pocket when they shouldn't have done it.

[730] It was one of the things that I really tried to instill in CIA officers, the sense of ethics and making sure that, you know, you live up to the trust that the American people have put in the organization and in CIA officers themselves.

[731] But yeah, and that's where I think, you know, trust is so important.

[732] If you're going to give a CIA officer not just millions of dollars, but also access to secrets that in and of themselves are worth millions of dollars that people sell to our foreign countries.

[733] That's why you do have polygraphs, you do have security reviews and checks to make sure that somebody has not gone down the wrong path.

[734] And you also do a very, very rigorous job of vetting people before you bring them into the family of the CIA.

[735] Now, with all that due diligence, has anyone made off with like 10 million bucks?

[736] You're going to have to ask the FBI friend that because they have to be the ones to investigate something like that.

[737] I mean, look, I can see the murky ethics of it.

[738] Like, if you give me, Dak Shepard, the briefcase of $5 million, I have a contact in Osamabad, and this guy is a piece of shit.

[739] Now, he's our best option, but he is a piece of shit.

[740] And I think to myself, does this guy really deserve five million more than I deserve one of those millions?

[741] You can see where the gears would start turning when you really just start comparing yourself to the person getting the money.

[742] you might feel more worthy of it.

[743] I'm just saying.

[744] Yeah, I think, you know, humankind, there are people who do ask those questions.

[745] And I'd like to think that, again, the overwhelming majority of CIA officers will do the right thing and what they are, you know, obligated to do as opposed to just, you know, putting that million dollars in their path.

[746] I think I just inadvertently exposed another strike against me. Yeah, you're definitely not.

[747] I'm already trying to figure out how to steal some of that money.

[748] If you decide to apply for the agency, please don't put me down as a record.

[749] reference because you have to relate this conversation that we found today.

[750] Well, John Brennan, what a pleasure to talk to you.

[751] Undaunted, my fight against America's enemies at home and abroad.

[752] I cannot wait to read this book.

[753] Every one of these topics that you cover interests me greatly, and I think will interest a ton of people.

[754] And I'm glad I hate this notion like, oh, people in intelligence should never write books.

[755] Why?

[756] Every other wing of the government should.

[757] As to your point, I think transparency would help the cause on some level, because in shadows of secrecy, you can make the worst assumption or the best assumption.

[758] And I think the more trust we have in these agencies, the better they can do their job.

[759] And we all benefit from that.

[760] So I just thank you so much for being a guest.

[761] It's a real honor to talk to you.

[762] Well, thank you, Dax.

[763] It's a pleasure to be with you.

[764] It's been a great opportunity for me to talk about, you know, my life in the CIA and the national security community.

[765] And it's a great community made up of the, you know, very, very patriotic women and men from across this great country of ours.

[766] And one of the reasons why I wrote the memoir, as I say in the preface, is to encourage young Americans of all different professional pursuits to think about public service and giving back to this country of ours because we benefit so much from living in the United States of America.

[767] And yes, we have our imperfections.

[768] But if we want to stay strong and secure and safe and prosperous in the future, we need young Americans to give back to the country in some form of public service.

[769] So I'm hoping that they will do that.

[770] Yeah, and also it's not unpatriotic to want us to be even better.

[771] No, it's not.

[772] Yeah, in fact, I'd argue it makes us patriotic.

[773] Thank you so much, John.

[774] Good luck with the book, and we hope to talk to you again.

[775] Okay.

[776] Thanks for much.

[777] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[778] To the last fact check of the year.

[779] I hear come Santa Claus.

[780] There is a man outside doing some potted plant.

[781] Is that what he's got going on?

[782] Is he planting point Zedias?

[783] Oh, I hope.

[784] Me too.

[785] Although, aren't they poisonous for small animals and babies?

[786] That's kind of the fun of it.

[787] It's like, maybe.

[788] Yeah, you're right.

[789] There's a plausible threat.

[790] It heightens everything, kind of like the pine needles during the under Christmas tree.

[791] Coitus.

[792] Oh, for Coitus.

[793] Yeah, for Coitus.

[794] Quitum.

[795] As I said, this is my first real tree by myself.

[796] And it's because you shamed me. Oh.

[797] You said that the most Indian thing about me was my big Christmas tree.

[798] So I got a real one and it smells delish.

[799] Well, if that was a thank you, you're welcome.

[800] Okay, sure.

[801] Thank you.

[802] Thank you for shaming me into getting, well, let me just ask you this.

[803] Do you like the Christmas tree more than the fake one?

[804] Yeah, except I do anticipate very much not liking this Christmas tree once Christmas is over.

[805] Uh -huh, and you got to drag it out to the curb.

[806] And I got to figure out what to do, how to get it out.

[807] You just drag it right out.

[808] Just as the dad of the Christmas tree, so maybe he'll take care of it for me. Yeah.

[809] But I normally can't because I go home.

[810] Yeah.

[811] And I'm not going home this year, so I get to relish in the smell.

[812] Isn't it intoxicating?

[813] Oh, it's the best smell.

[814] Ours don't smell enough.

[815] I'm really disappointed with the smell factor.

[816] Well, man, I used to get a big Christmas tree for my tiny one -bedroom apartment in Santa Monica, and it reeked in there like Christmas tree, and I loved it.

[817] Have you ever sprayed the branches?

[818] Every time I spray the branches, I feel it gets a new kick of smell.

[819] Oh, it's like a catalyst for the stink.

[820] I should do that, for sure.

[821] You have a cute little mister bottle?

[822] Yeah, see?

[823] Is it an old hairspray bottle or?

[824] Oh, it's that.

[825] Oh, my God, that copper thing?

[826] Yeah.

[827] You are so fancy.

[828] Well, when I come here, I'm like, I'm intimidated by how classy it is in here.

[829] We already know you don't like fanciness.

[830] No, I like your fanciness a lot.

[831] Well, good.

[832] I like that you're fancy.

[833] Well, that's mixed messages.

[834] Sure, that's my signature.

[835] Anywho, spraying the needles seems to give it an aroma.

[836] A little turbo charge it.

[837] Yeah.

[838] Speaking of turbocharge, we watched the race, Formula One race.

[839] Danny.

[840] Yeah.

[841] Danny Ricardo.

[842] Yeah, we kept an eye on him.

[843] him close eye on him i was sad because of the first step and crash in the first lap yeah were they in monaco they were in barang oh their second week in a row that's one thing i am excited about when i married daniel and become the princess of monaco uh -huh monica of monaco yeah they go to very specific locations for their races and they're all very exotic incredibly exotic yeah i'm excited about that part.

[844] You'll tour with him during the season.

[845] Of course.

[846] Well, he'll need to cheer him on.

[847] What a wonderful supportive wife you're going to be.

[848] You don't think your own career is going to interfere with being on the road with him?

[849] I'm sure we'll have fights about it, but I want to be at all the races I can be at.

[850] Okay, good.

[851] Yeah, I'll do my best.

[852] I want to.

[853] You'll be nervous, though, right?

[854] Of course.

[855] I'm already nervous when he rides, drives.

[856] So you'll want to be there, but you'll be very nervous.

[857] Yeah.

[858] Oh, and you think now he doesn't want me there because of the nervousness.

[859] I know how to pretend like I'm normal.

[860] Okay.

[861] I just didn't know if you were going to enjoy that.

[862] I'm not going to enjoy it.

[863] I'll be nervous, but I'll also feel elation when he's safe.

[864] Yeah, and when he wins.

[865] Do you think he'll attack him in the hotel room after he's been safe?

[866] Because you'll be so gratefully still alive.

[867] Yes.

[868] It's like he's returning for more every weekend.

[869] Exactly.

[870] Wow.

[871] I'm sure, again, I'm sure it will cause me. many problems, but it will also be fun.

[872] You'll be willing to take those on.

[873] Yes.

[874] You're up for the challenge.

[875] Well, you're in Bravenor.

[876] Gryffindor.

[877] Griffin door.

[878] Yeah.

[879] Yeah.

[880] So you're not running for many challenges.

[881] Oh, no. No. No, no, no, no. What's your favorite ornament on my tree?

[882] Can you see well from over here?

[883] Yeah.

[884] My far vision is still pretty good.

[885] Okay.

[886] My near -sightedness is in a fucking nosedive.

[887] Like daily, I notice it's worse.

[888] Yeah.

[889] Remember I tried to read the lyrics and hold the microphone, the phone close to the microphone?

[890] It couldn't be done.

[891] I had to pick whether I wanted the music to be there or I could read it.

[892] Yeah.

[893] How do you feel about that?

[894] I'm pissed.

[895] Yeah.

[896] I hate it.

[897] It's like a sign of age.

[898] Although, can I give this update?

[899] So in the last month, I had a CT heart scan.

[900] Yes.

[901] With the contrast.

[902] And they can literally look in every vessel of your heart.

[903] and then tell you how much plaque you have.

[904] And there's many vessels in there.

[905] I want to say there was like 13.

[906] Well, that came back 0 % plaque, which I was so delighted about and quite frankly shocked.

[907] Yeah.

[908] Then I got my colonoscopy and endoscopy.

[909] Endoscopy.

[910] Endoscopy.

[911] They put the camera down my throat and my butthole.

[912] Up my butthole down my throat hole.

[913] To meet in the middle?

[914] Oh, I wish.

[915] Zero palips.

[916] Zero palips.

[917] I'm very grateful.

[918] Oh, me too.

[919] Those are the two big whammies.

[920] Yeah.

[921] Guys, get checked.

[922] Get checked for sure.

[923] For sure.

[924] Anyways, my sight.

[925] I got distracted.

[926] Yeah, because it's okay if your sight is going a little bit because you're at the rest of your body seems to be doing well.

[927] Yeah.

[928] All things considered, I'd rather have no polyps and shitty nearsightedness.

[929] Well, right at the gates, I love the snowflakes.

[930] Oh, thank you.

[931] They're wonderful.

[932] Yeah, and I've said this to you before.

[933] Generally, these trees, when people get white Christmas lights, that's what they're rich families in my town did.

[934] And so I generally don't like it.

[935] And then this whole story I made up about it was they don't like color and fun, but they'd rather look fancy than have a colorful thing in their house.

[936] So that was my judgment.

[937] And I'm, I've backed off that.

[938] Great.

[939] And I actually really like a Christmas tree.

[940] It's elegant.

[941] It's beautiful.

[942] And I don't think you're a snooty snob.

[943] Thank you.

[944] Or a snooty steam.

[945] There is a whale I thought you might like.

[946] Where's the whale?

[947] The whale is Is that kind of steal the metal piece above the pink macaroon?

[948] A metal piece of...

[949] Do you think I can't see it from my angle?

[950] Perhaps.

[951] You can look at it later.

[952] But I do think that's going to be your pick.

[953] Is it a humpback or a blue whale?

[954] I don't think it's a humpback.

[955] You don't think it's a humpback.

[956] No. Do you have a favorite whale?

[957] I like the blue whale because that's the whale I'm going to create the hotel in for the sex parties.

[958] That's right.

[959] Yeah.

[960] So the blue whale.

[961] Yeah.

[962] Mine's the orca.

[963] And then second to that, it's a blue whale.

[964] You don't like humpbacks?

[965] Nope.

[966] I don't dislike them.

[967] I'm just not drawn to them.

[968] I don't particularly think about whales often.

[969] Not even dolphins or orcas.

[970] Now, for anyone who's in the audience who just bristled at the fact I said dolphins, I just want to say dolphins are toothed whales.

[971] Okay.

[972] So don't get mad.

[973] So are orcas.

[974] Orcas are toothed whales.

[975] People don't think orcas are whales?

[976] Well, a lot of people point out that orcas are dolphins.

[977] That's what they'll try to say.

[978] Oh, really?

[979] Yeah, but they're all whales.

[980] Killer, killer whale, I might add.

[981] That's right.

[982] But they might say that just means it kills whales.

[983] Oh, are they going to say that?

[984] I could see some bonehead saying that.

[985] But all things are true in this case.

[986] They're dolphins and their whales and their toothed whales.

[987] I do like orcas.

[988] Now that I'm looking at them, I like they're coloring.

[989] Can I tell you some things?

[990] things about them that might make you like them more.

[991] Sure.

[992] So I want to say, and I could be wrong about this, I think they're the only animal on planet Earth that has a larger neocortex to mass ratio than humans.

[993] Really?

[994] So conceivably, they're smarter than us.

[995] Wow.

[996] Minimally, they're very, very smart.

[997] And you know, they can talk like five miles underwater.

[998] They talk to each other.

[999] Yeah.

[1000] And they live in these pods and they're very communal.

[1001] And they teach their, it's not instinctual for them to kill those seals down on the beach in Peru.

[1002] So they have to teach.

[1003] It's like military training?

[1004] Yes, they beach themselves, which is crazy.

[1005] They only do it one part of the earth.

[1006] They beach themselves and grab a sneal and they've taught themselves how to wiggle back into the ocean and they spend tons of time teaching their little babies.

[1007] Oh my gosh.

[1008] And that's why you think they're malicious because when they get a seal, they don't eat it right away.

[1009] They take it out into the water and they play volleyball with it.

[1010] They kick it back and forth with their tails, to celebrate so the kid will get excited about the whole thing.

[1011] It's a way to celebrate to encourage them to try it.

[1012] Oof.

[1013] Isn't that cool?

[1014] I just found a whale poster that I like.

[1015] Oh, let me buy it for you for Christmas.

[1016] You have so many things to buy me for Christmas.

[1017] I know.

[1018] I got a busy day.

[1019] I mean.

[1020] Okay, looking at this, I think the type of whale I have on my Christmas tree is a sperm whale.

[1021] Sure.

[1022] The Moby Dick whale?

[1023] Yeah.

[1024] Yeah, okay.

[1025] I like that kind.

[1026] that it has a flat face.

[1027] It's very traditional.

[1028] Yeah.

[1029] Okay, blue whale.

[1030] But I like blue whales because I like that they're blue.

[1031] And elusive.

[1032] Very limited edition.

[1033] The most limited edition.

[1034] Shit, really?

[1035] Yeah.

[1036] Oh, then I like that the most.

[1037] They're so elusive.

[1038] There's almost no footage of blue whales.

[1039] They live so far in the deep.

[1040] And should we go over some of their stats?

[1041] 200 ,000 pounds they weigh.

[1042] Their tongue is a size of an elephant.

[1043] I'm feeling less and less ethical about having that It's a sex hotel.

[1044] No, no, no. You're going to find a beached blue whale carcass and use the rib cage and stuff.

[1045] Don't worry.

[1046] There's nothing to feel sad about.

[1047] We're not going to hunt one.

[1048] Okay, so really quick.

[1049] 200 ,000 pounds.

[1050] Tongues the size of an elephant, like 20 ,000 pounds.

[1051] That's insane.

[1052] Their heart is as big as a Volkswagen bug.

[1053] Oh.

[1054] You could crawl around through the chambers of their heart.

[1055] And you will at my hotel.

[1056] Oh, my God.

[1057] I'll be in every kinky position you can imagine in that heart.

[1058] Okay.

[1059] Let me tell you about some other whales.

[1060] Okay.

[1061] Sperm whale, fin whale, bowhead whale.

[1062] Oh, sure.

[1063] Uh -huh.

[1064] Humpback.

[1065] Gray whale.

[1066] Baluga?

[1067] Baluga?

[1068] Baluga whale.

[1069] Oh, baby beluga.

[1070] That's also a toothed whale.

[1071] Norwal.

[1072] Oh, with the weird horn on its nose.

[1073] Uh -huh.

[1074] And minky whale.

[1075] I don't know that one.

[1076] What's happening with the minky whale?

[1077] What if it looked just like Minky Kelly?

[1078] I like this poster.

[1079] It's cute.

[1080] Yeah, I like whale posters.

[1081] Will you buy me one for Christmas?

[1082] Yes.

[1083] And I'll give it to you for Christmas.

[1084] Yes.

[1085] So I mean, I guess this is a real 2020 thing.

[1086] I don't really have any facts.

[1087] Oh, okay.

[1088] Because John Brennan, like, knows those facts, you know.

[1089] Well, also, his facts would be unsubstantiatable.

[1090] You wouldn't even be able to look them up.

[1091] Exactly.

[1092] There are a few things on this list, but I can't look them up.

[1093] His job is to make sure I can't look it up.

[1094] That's right.

[1095] Yeah.

[1096] He could say that, like, they arrest them.

[1097] for aliens, there's no way for you to find out.

[1098] I know.

[1099] And it could be true.

[1100] Okay, but guess what I do have?

[1101] Tell me. Another quiz.

[1102] Let me give it to you.

[1103] This is a personality quiz that you take at the CIA.

[1104] Oh, let me give it to you.

[1105] Of course, you know where my mind's going immediately.

[1106] Do you know where it's going?

[1107] Where?

[1108] Well, the CIA operatives often had to have sexual relationships with these people they were turning.

[1109] The Russians?

[1110] Well, whoever it was, they wanted to get on the internet.

[1111] I'd track of.

[1112] Germans, you name it.

[1113] That was a tool in their toolkit.

[1114] Well, that was for the Americans, yeah.

[1115] Fem fatal.

[1116] So, you know, my first thought is, would you be willing to do that for your country?

[1117] Hmm.

[1118] If he was hot.

[1119] Oh, yeah.

[1120] Yeah.

[1121] You know, every now and then, like a question, I'll get out that's on a Google interview to work at Google.

[1122] And one of them famously is why our manhole covers round.

[1123] Do you know this one?

[1124] they'll ask you that in the interview.

[1125] Oh, to see if you can pass their riddle test?

[1126] Why are manhole covers round?

[1127] Because the manhole is round.

[1128] Good guess.

[1129] It's the only shape that can't fall in on itself.

[1130] So when you take the cover off, it can't fall in the hole.

[1131] But if it was a square, there's a way for it to fall in the hole if you went diagonal with it.

[1132] So to protect the people who go down into the hole.

[1133] That makes sense.

[1134] Yeah.

[1135] But I didn't know that.

[1136] I thought it was a riddle.

[1137] That's why I answered it in riddle.

[1138] like I thought you I thought it was like why are the covers round oh right well ask me why a manhole why are manhole covers round they're not manhole covers they're man and woman whole covers wow we both did a great job we're getting hired okay this is the quiz a quiz a quiz is a quiz okay are you more street smart or book smart I'm a little of both I'm more about logic I'm more about street smart I'm more about book smarts.

[1139] I think I'm more about...

[1140] That's a shitty question.

[1141] They kind of introduced two different factions of it.

[1142] It's like either about street smarts or book smarts, and then they threw logic in the middle of it.

[1143] I think I'm more logic than street or book.

[1144] Are you a good shot?

[1145] I practice regularly.

[1146] I never fired a weapon.

[1147] That's that, right?

[1148] Never fired a weapon.

[1149] Which television crime show do you like best?

[1150] Criminal Minds, NCIS, Hawaii 50 Law and Order, Special Victims Unit.

[1151] I don't like any of those shows.

[1152] Is that an option?

[1153] Wasn't Donofrey on one of them?

[1154] I think so.

[1155] If I had to pick, I guess I would say criminal minds.

[1156] Okay, great.

[1157] We don't even know what that means, but yes.

[1158] Which brand of the military are you more likely to join?

[1159] Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines.

[1160] I know the answer to this one.

[1161] You know the answer?

[1162] For you, yeah.

[1163] What is the Marines exactly?

[1164] Well, here's what's tricky about this question, is the Marines are officially a part of the Navy.

[1165] That's what I thought.

[1166] Yeah.

[1167] Yeah.

[1168] So I don't understand.

[1169] Okay.

[1170] But people in the Marines will say, say the guys in the Navy are the ones that bring them to battle, that they're the guys that give them a ride to war.

[1171] So there's a lot of animosity between it, but it is under the same category for the armed forces.

[1172] I is Army.

[1173] Okay.

[1174] Was that what you were going to guess?

[1175] No, I would have thought Air Force.

[1176] No. Have you ever been arrested?

[1177] Never, exclamation point.

[1178] I don't want to talk about that.

[1179] I was handcuffed, but not arrested.

[1180] I was falsely arrested once.

[1181] Never.

[1182] Are you a good team player?

[1183] I'm an excellent team player.

[1184] I prefer to work alone.

[1185] I'm a better leader.

[1186] It depends on the team.

[1187] These are bad answers.

[1188] They're like asking you questions.

[1189] I guess I'm going to say it depends on the team.

[1190] Could you pass a polygraph test about your past?

[1191] I'm sure I could.

[1192] I don't want to take a polygraph.

[1193] I wouldn't want to be asked about certain things.

[1194] It depends what I'm asked about.

[1195] Like those two are the same answer.

[1196] I hate this.

[1197] It is.

[1198] I would take one.

[1199] Okay.

[1200] How do you cope with stress?

[1201] I work out.

[1202] I let it pass.

[1203] I meditate.

[1204] I confront the source of my stress.

[1205] I mean, I think it's a mix of all, but maybe confronting the source.

[1206] Could you stay away from home for large periods of time?

[1207] I love being away from home.

[1208] I like sleeping in my own bed.

[1209] I could do it for a few weeks at a time.

[1210] I wouldn't want to be gone for more than a week.

[1211] I could do it for a few weeks.

[1212] Do you scare easily?

[1213] Yes.

[1214] It takes a lot to rat on me. I am very jumpy after dark.

[1215] I only get scared when it comes of my family.

[1216] I don't like sudden noises.

[1217] I think I'm very jumpy after dark.

[1218] Sure.

[1219] Can you tell when someone is lying?

[1220] I'm a human lie detector.

[1221] I tend to believe everyone until I have reason to disbelieve them.

[1222] I can usually tell.

[1223] I know when my kids are lying.

[1224] I'm a human lie detector.

[1225] Okay.

[1226] Do you ask a lot of questions?

[1227] I want to know a lot.

[1228] I try not to question things too much.

[1229] I don't ask them, but I look them up.

[1230] It depends if I'm interested in the subject.

[1231] I ask a lot of questions.

[1232] What was your favorite subject in school?

[1233] History, Math, English, Science.

[1234] What is your highest level of education?

[1235] I know this.

[1236] I have a bachelor's degree.

[1237] Which spy movie do you like the most?

[1238] The Born Identity.

[1239] Ooh.

[1240] True Lies.

[1241] Spy game.

[1242] Casino Royale.

[1243] Spy game is Bill Gates' family.

[1244] He's so clever.

[1245] Well, I've only seen...

[1246] This is easy.

[1247] Born identity.

[1248] It's obviously my favorite.

[1249] Can you make the caveat because of Matt Damon?

[1250] Sure.

[1251] Have you ever smuggled anything?

[1252] Goodness, no. I smuggled tobacco from another state.

[1253] State.

[1254] I smuggled vodka past my parents once.

[1255] I smuggled snacks in my child's diaper bag.

[1256] Oh, vodka past parents?

[1257] Yeah, probably.

[1258] Would you be happy living in Langley, Virginia?

[1259] Yes, I need to be near headquarters.

[1260] I've never been to Virginia.

[1261] Virginia is where I live now.

[1262] I would prefer living at Virginia Beach.

[1263] This seems so random.

[1264] Sure.

[1265] I don't remember the first couple days.

[1266] Yes, I need to be near headquarters.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] Which government agency are you most likely to work for?

[1269] CIA, IRS, FBI, DHS.

[1270] CIA.

[1271] Yeah, smart.

[1272] What law enforcement job would you like the least judge, police officer, lawyer, parole officer?

[1273] Ooh, police officer.

[1274] Oh, I would have said parole officer.

[1275] Well, yeah, I mean, but what do they do exactly?

[1276] People get out of prison, you got to monitor them, they got to come in and be at a cup, you got to make sure they got a job.

[1277] Yeah, I want that.

[1278] I don't want that.

[1279] Yeah, that's the one.

[1280] How would you try to disguise yourself?

[1281] I would wear a wig.

[1282] I would wear sunglasses.

[1283] I would dress as the opposite sex.

[1284] hide behind a newspaper oh my god this i'm sorry i think a horrible quick i would i would wear a wig like the americans do you think you're sneaky i can be very sneaky i can't keep secrets long enough to be sneaky my partner thinks i'm sneaky it depends what i'm sneaking about i can be very sneaky yeah how many hours can you stay awake 48 24 72 12 really 24 maybe 48 oh wow Which one?

[1285] 48.

[1286] Oh, wow, you think so?

[1287] Yeah.

[1288] Okay.

[1289] Would you ever go skydiving?

[1290] I have been skydiving.

[1291] No, thank you.

[1292] I would try it.

[1293] I may need to be pushed out of the plane, but I would do it.

[1294] No, thank you.

[1295] Okay.

[1296] What kind of weapon would you choose in a zombie apocalypse?

[1297] Rifle, machete, crossbow, sword.

[1298] Rifle.

[1299] Okay.

[1300] Keep your hands clean.

[1301] Could you run for five miles?

[1302] I frequently get five miles in.

[1303] I could walk five miles.

[1304] I could easily do three miles.

[1305] I would probably croak.

[1306] I could easily do three.

[1307] Okay.

[1308] Which are the following experiences have you had?

[1309] I can speak more than one language.

[1310] I want a football scholarship.

[1311] I have lived abroad.

[1312] I am familiar with other cultures.

[1313] I have lived abroad?

[1314] Yeah, I guess, yeah.

[1315] How would you describe your current job?

[1316] Boring, stable, easy, challenging.

[1317] Oh, challenging.

[1318] I mean, it's not, that's not, but of those options.

[1319] It's none of the other three.

[1320] It's pretty stable.

[1321] I mean, maybe.

[1322] Yeah, we'll see.

[1323] How would your boss describe your work?

[1324] They'd say it's accurate.

[1325] They'd say it's late.

[1326] They'd say it's timely.

[1327] They'd say it's acceptable.

[1328] They'd say it's accurate?

[1329] How would you pass a secret note to a coworker?

[1330] I would send an encrypted file.

[1331] I would drop a piece of paper on their chair.

[1332] I would write it in invisible ink.

[1333] I would signal for them to meet me at the water cooler.

[1334] Ah, I would signal.

[1335] Yeah, that's a good answer.

[1336] Okay.

[1337] You got future CIA agent.

[1338] Do not go any further, head directly over to the CIA's employment website and begin the application process.

[1339] You are more qualified to be a CIA agent than most people who would hold high -level government jobs.

[1340] You can keep secrets and the level head to solve complex problems.

[1341] The country will benefit greatly from having you in the CIA.

[1342] Wow.

[1343] Congratulations.

[1344] Thank you.

[1345] I got to tell John.

[1346] Oh, my God.

[1347] Let's call John and tell him to look for you in the halls the next time he's there.

[1348] Exciting.

[1349] Exciting, exciting, exciting.

[1350] Well, I love you, Merry Christmas.

[1351] I love you, Merry Christmas.

[1352] Thanks, Armcherry.

[1353] Thanks, cherries.

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