What’s My Next Right Step With Money?

[0] from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

[1] I'm Dave Ramsey, your host.

[2] Thank you for joining us, Dr. John Deloney, number one bestselling author and host of the Dr. John Deloney podcast on the Ramsey Networks is my co -host today.

[3] We're happy to talk to you about your life, your money, your relationships.

[4] We're here to help you do life a little bit better.

[5] The phone number is AAA 825 -5 -225.

[6] Taylor starts this hour in Knoxville.

[7] Hi, Taylor.

[8] How are you?

[9] Hey, Dave.

[10] Hey, Dr. John.

[11] Thank you so much for taking my call.

[12] Sure.

[13] What's up?

[14] So I need some help navigating money and family.

[15] My question is, is it wrong for my husband and I to lie about our accomplishments and pretend to be broke in order to financially and emotionally protect ourselves and I'm happy to give a little context with that it's just cowardly yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I own that yeah yeah how old are you guys how long y 'all been married Taylor so we've been married a little over a year together for five I am 32 and my husband is 35.

[16] So who's the twerp that's going to have a hard time with you succeeding?

[17] It's my family, specifically my mom.

[18] So my husband and I have paid off over $100 ,000 in student loans over the last three years.

[19] And your mom will feel entitled to some of your money if she hears your winning?

[20] Correct.

[21] Okay.

[22] Correct.

[23] Almost like I talked about this before.

[24] Okay.

[25] Uh -huh.

[26] Uh -huh.

[27] And so she uses money to show love, but more as a means of control.

[28] And yeah, anytime one of her kids starts making money, she's got her handout wanting some.

[29] And to clarify, she is financially well off and is not in need of any help.

[30] And she has actually stolen thousands of dollars from me in the past when I had my very first job when I was 16 years old.

[31] And when I do with her, we're pretty much saying mom's got issues.

[32] Yes.

[33] Why do you continue to allow your mom to control you?

[34] You're 30s.

[35] yet that she'll finally you'll finally do it you'll finally give her the amount of money you'll finally do the thing and she'll go I'm so proud of you and I love you that's what I think you're chasing and I think you wrap it up in words like honor thy father and mother honor thy father and mother does not mean honor their misbehavior exactly yeah in all honesty I would love to just cut her off completely I don't think I'm ready to do that I think that's what makes it hard.

[36] Here's what you're giving her right now.

[37] You've given her money in the past.

[38] You've given her your life in the past.

[39] Now you're giving her your integrity.

[40] Free rent in your head.

[41] Don't give her your integrity anymore.

[42] Tell the truth.

[43] Yeah.

[44] And when she says, well, I want, no, we're on a budget.

[45] It's a muscle you're going to have to practice.

[46] You're going to have to, you're going to have to, it's like going to go to the gym.

[47] You just never done squats before.

[48] You're going to have to start light, but you're going to have to learn how to squats.

[49] The first time you do it, your heart rate is going to go.

[50] and your stomach's going to go into your throat.

[51] The 80th time you do it, you're just going to be smiling, looking at a poor pitiful lady who hasn't been able to control her own emotions.

[52] Yeah.

[53] Because that's actually what she is.

[54] She's kind of pitiful.

[55] You will never do a thing that makes her finally say.

[56] Because she doesn't have that, she doesn't have that too on her kit.

[57] She can't do it.

[58] She doesn't know how.

[59] So you're dealing with an incomplete person who's got major, major gaps and you cannot have any expectation that she's going to be anything other than that and you just smile and go no um i mean pretend like uh she had had a stroke okay and she was incapable of uh behaving you would just look at her and smile and go gosh that's a horrible malady you've got but that still doesn't mean you get to come over here and you know throw rocks through my window yeah and um we you didn't hear any no you don't want to so bad why you just kept driving why uh can i okay i'm gonna cut to it you're scared you're gonna haunt your marriage yeah and at some point your husband if he hasn't already is going to ask why her over me why her over our future that we're trying to build together she's taking up a lot of space in your head so this may be you guys you may need to sit down and talk to somebody and work this through because this is a mother -daughter dysfunction that's pretty pretty serious and it's just it's just manifesting itself in the money but it's there's a lot of others parts of this and so but the truth is you're not going to have peace hiding as a 30 -year -old hiding like you're some kind of misbehaving teenager you know I can't tell my mom I got good grades.

[60] You know, I think, come on, what?

[61] So, because she, she does not have the capacity.

[62] She's a diminished capacity as if she's had a stroke.

[63] We'll just call it that, okay?

[64] And it affected her ability to be a good mom.

[65] And so you just treat her like that, and it's kind of sad and it's kind of pitiful.

[66] But it doesn't mean I can't tell her truth.

[67] Mom, you know, if it comes up, but you don't need to go in there and go, da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da.

[68] Well, look what we did because that's not going to do it either.

[69] But you just, if it comes up, you just go, well, you know, Hey, yeah, we paid off some money.

[70] But I don't tell, I don't sit down with anybody and go, look at what I did.

[71] Yeah, how does that even come up in your house?

[72] Yeah, really.

[73] Well, whenever me and my husband go, which is less and less frequently now, if I need to go to the restroom or leave the room, they will corner my husband and straight up say, how much money did you make this year?

[74] What are you making now?

[75] Hold on, but all you say is I had a good year.

[76] I'm not going to give you those numbers and you smile real big I don't I'm going to tell you that it's not your business or when you come out of the bathroom go hey mom dad we don't talk about our private financial matters anymore we don't put those numbers out into the world those are private those are ours and if they can't honor that boundary then they're asking you we don't want you here yeah right that could be the exit that I'm looking for no it could be but that would be them running you off not you yelling I'm leaving until you learn to behave.

[77] That's not what we're telling you, okay?

[78] Yeah, I don't want, I don't want, I don't want, I don't want to talk about my sex life with you.

[79] I don't want to talk about my, like, the dollar amount we made last year.

[80] I don't want to talk about any number of things.

[81] That's for us.

[82] It's not for you.

[83] As I started having grandbabies, I have had way more information from my children about the arrival of children.

[84] I'm sure you have.

[85] And how they got here than I wanted to know.

[86] I'm just telling you.

[87] So I just soon we went her direction and just said, you know, y 'all just keep, you Keep that to yourself.

[88] I really don't want to know some of this.

[89] I just want to see the baby when it comes.

[90] Thank you very much.

[91] I'm happy.

[92] I'm happy.

[93] I don't need to know about the practice.

[94] Nope.

[95] Thank you very much.

[96] It's all good.

[97] Oh, my gosh.

[98] It's the same stuff.

[99] You're exactly right.

[100] I'm not going to tell you about that stuff.

[101] No. Papa Dave don't want to know.

[102] Popper Dave don't want to know.

[103] I'm saying.

[104] I want to meet the baby.

[105] I just show, just tell me what the name is and tell me what the sex is when it's appropriate to tell me and then tell me when I can tell people that and then I will and don't tell me unless you want me to tell somebody unless you tell me not to tell them.

[106] I need America to know I had a great joke that I didn't just use.

[107] You didn't use it.

[108] Are you working the baby steps?

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[116] 800 -356 -4282 or zander .com.

[117] Dr. John Deloney -Ramsi, personality is my co -host today.

[118] Open phones at AAA 8255 -225.

[119] Today's question of the day is brought to you by Neighborly, your hub for home services.

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[123] All right, today's question comes from Flustered in Florida.

[124] Sounds like a dear Abby column.

[125] What would your name be, Dave?

[126] handsome in Nashville.

[127] Devilish, Dave.

[128] Today's question comes from Flustered in Florida.

[129] My wife and I have been married for nine months, and for the last three months, we've been working the baby steps.

[130] We each came into the marriage with debt.

[131] Our total combined debt was close to 50 ,000 bucks, but I recently cashed in a whole life policy that was worth 22 ,000.

[132] We've used it to pay off all our credit cards and a small student loan that I had.

[133] Had no problem using this money this way, even though most of the credit card debt was hers.

[134] The way I feel is we're now one, and so is our debt.

[135] However, she feels very guilty about taking this money.

[136] It makes her feel indebted to me. I hate to make her feel like she needs to pay me back since I don't feel like this at all.

[137] Do you have any advice for this situation?

[138] What do you think, ma 'am?

[139] Well, I mean, yeah, it's a discussion of a view of marriage.

[140] You know, you're not in debt to your spouse ever.

[141] You're all into your, you know, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health.

[142] I mean, if you get the flu and she makes your chicken soup, do you have to pay for it in sickness and in health?

[143] You know, if she, if you're laying in the bed, you know, sweating through a fever because you got the flu and she's working and she's taking care of you and, you know, so forth, do you have to write a check for that?

[144] Right.

[145] You know, no, we took, we took on each other's bird.

[146] where our goal once we walk down that aisle is to serve each other the rest of our lives to do everything we can to make the other one's person and life better and that includes we took on each other's debt we took on each other's income we took on each other's assets and we took on each other's crazy parents yeah i i don't think flustered in florida i don't think you can make your wife feel anything i don't think you have that kind of power agreed um and my guess is she probably I grew up in a home where anytime somebody had to do something for her, whether it's buy her a new pair of shoes or some jeans or get her to school on time, she was made to feel like she was a burden to them.

[147] And so now she's married somebody who loves her and is all in.

[148] And she doesn't have the, for lack of better term, she doesn't have the script for that.

[149] She doesn't have the wiring for that.

[150] And so she's going to have to choose on her own to feel that discomfort and realize you're not holding this over her head.

[151] This isn't an ROI.

[152] In fact, Dave, I talked to somebody recently who's had a relationship struggle, and he said the person that he was with was listing off all these things that they do versus, and I said, once you get into list, once you get into ROI comparison, your relationship's in trouble.

[153] Sometimes that's an important conversation to have because it's way out of whack, but, man, once you start keeping tabs, that can be the death of a relationship, and she married someone that doesn't do that.

[154] And so she's going to have to learn how to not feel guilty every time she needs some support, some love and some care.

[155] Well, this is just a, it's a philosophical view of a proper marriage relationship.

[156] And the philosophical theological view is, I no longer own anything, we.

[157] We do.

[158] On everything.

[159] And that's training that you can decide to do that.

[160] I tell couples all the time when you get married, your pronouns change.

[161] It's not mine and yours.

[162] It's ours.

[163] We're French.

[164] We, we, we know.

[165] And so everything's a we.

[166] It's a pronoun is a plural now.

[167] And I'm not talking about pronouns out in the crazy world.

[168] That's not what I'm talking about.

[169] I'm talking about out of the abundance of your heart, the mouth speaks and just go, we had some debt.

[170] We paid off the debt, which is how flustered feels, but his wife didn't feel that way.

[171] And so I think we just talk about it out loud and go, look, the right way for us to view this, both of us is that everything that's mine is yours and everything that yours is mine.

[172] There's not any ears in mine.

[173] It's ours.

[174] and if we can get there and start using our intellect as an act of our will to practice that and practice thinking about it that way, then, you know, it changes everything.

[175] I'll give me an extreme example out there for those of you listening.

[176] I mean, Sharon, my wife, has not earned $1 of income other than consignment sale clothing since Denise was born and Denise is 38.

[177] But we have had a really good income during those 38 years, you know, or 36 or whatever she is.

[178] But we have an income.

[179] The Ramsey's have an income.

[180] I technically earned all of it, technically, except for the part where I get to go to work all the time because she's doing all this other work.

[181] That's right.

[182] But, you know, so you can't really bifurcate all that.

[183] and it worked out any other way.

[184] So we have an income.

[185] And, you know, and Sharon, Sharon will use that.

[186] It took a while, but, you know, she was like, hey, you know, you're making pretty good money.

[187] No, we are making pretty good money.

[188] We are, we make enough for us to buy that car that you're going to drive.

[189] Right.

[190] You know, and you really got to kind of practice it.

[191] Yeah.

[192] Especially when there's a single income family.

[193] Or when one of you brought more assets to the table, in his case, they used his whole life policy to pay off her credit cards but it's not his and her anymore once you get married it's ours here's another side i made this mistake um i bought a car with cash i don't know five years ago and we didn't take a note out on it i just bought the car i went down to the courthouse but i put it in just my name and it never occurred to me and it my wife said that makes me feel like you went and did a thing on your own and it never even it never even it never even No, no, no, no. This is ours.

[194] All this is ours, right?

[195] And so even the going back to the courthouse and changing the name, this is John, both of our names are on the title.

[196] Which costs a little money.

[197] Yeah, but it's an important.

[198] It's an important thing.

[199] It's a very important.

[200] Very important.

[201] Well done.

[202] So it's something flustered.

[203] You've been married a whole nine months.

[204] And so it's something you, it's a muscle you guys can grow into and learn.

[205] It's very possible.

[206] You're going to be just fine, but it gives us a chance to get up on a soapbox and tell everybody.

[207] ought to do it.

[208] Corey's in Norfolk, Virginia.

[209] Hi, Corey.

[210] How are you?

[211] Hey, I'm doing good.

[212] How are you guys?

[213] Better than we deserve.

[214] What's up?

[215] Good.

[216] Well, me and my wife, we're looking to move from Virginia to North Carolina.

[217] We have a toddler that is three years old, so we're looking to get to a lower crime city and somewhere with better schools.

[218] So we currently don't have any debt other than our mortgage.

[219] We owe about 240 on that.

[220] We can sell our home for around 450 here.

[221] we would be looking to purchase there for 5 to 600 ,000.

[222] We'd be looking to roll probably 175 ,000 from our current home in.

[223] We also have 125 ,000 total in savings.

[224] So just trying to get an idea of, is this a smart move for us to go ahead and make, taking our emotions out of the situation, and how much would you put down if it is a good situation?

[225] I put down everything I had except for three to six months of expenses, and I would put the payment or put the mortgage that you take out on a 15 year, as long as the payment's no more than a fourth of your take -home pay, then you can afford this.

[226] Okay.

[227] And I think you can.

[228] All right.

[229] I think it fits in your numbers.

[230] I think you're just fine.

[231] You are moving to a less expensive real estate market and still moving up in -house, by the way, and blaming a little baby.

[232] Yeah, somewhat.

[233] Yeah.

[234] I would much rather Dave's on to something really important I think for the sake of your relationship with your kid I think it's important for you and your wife to say hey we want to move for a better because we have some goals for our life but during that stress of moving that stress of getting new driver's license it can be really easy to look at that kid and slowly start to resent that kid we're doing this for you no you're not you're doing it for y 'all and the kid yeah one new schools too of course but also it's for y 'all yep yep yep yep yep yep yep that's how that works yeah just i mean it's it's it all of it's fine but you did move up in house in a cheaper real estate market um point being you didn't have to to accomplish the school goal only but that's okay you can afford it i think corey so i'd probably go right ahead i just watch my i always try to think about how i what I used to reason my way through that and was that reason process factual.

[235] And that's why I'm challenging you just to help you with that in the future.

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[243] 1749, Mallory Lane, Suite 100, Brentwood, Tennessee, 37027.

[244] Dr. John Deloney -Ramsie personality is my co -host today.

[245] Lee and Nicole are on the debt -free stage in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions.

[246] Hey, guys, how are you?

[247] Hey, great.

[248] How are you?

[249] Better than we deserve.

[250] Where do you all live?

[251] we live in greenville south carolina oh love it what a great town beautiful welcome to nashville how much debt have you paid we paid off four hundred and sixty two thousand dollars whoa yeah how long did this take 53 months 53 months and your range of income during that time we started out about 180 and then up to 305 wow what do y 'all do for a living we're veterinarians oh very good both of you You on the practice?

[252] No. But both of you making $100 .5.

[253] About 80 -kow or thereabouts, huh?

[254] Good for y 'all.

[255] Student loans.

[256] It was.

[257] Yeah, those vet loans will get you, man. Big old student loans.

[258] So bad.

[259] I took a call last week from a guy whose wife was wanting to go be a veterinary.

[260] He was an accountant.

[261] He was trying to figure out if it was worth it.

[262] I was with you.

[263] Yeah.

[264] Yeah, I said, it was worth.

[265] It's worth it.

[266] But you got to really think it through.

[267] 400.

[268] So you've been out of school five years, I'm guessing.

[269] Four years?

[270] Almost nine years.

[271] Oh, okay.

[272] So what happened after, you know, about this, it looks like about five years ago, this thing blew up.

[273] What's the story?

[274] So it started in 2015.

[275] That's when we graduated at school.

[276] And each of us owed probably 170 ,000 or so.

[277] We were put on an income -based repayment plan.

[278] As you do.

[279] And, you know, at six and a half percent interest, 170 ,000, we weren't even covering the interest.

[280] Not even.

[281] Yeah.

[282] And so between 2015 and 2019, our loans went from 170 ,000 to well over 200 ,000.

[283] Each.

[284] So each.

[285] Double.

[286] And so it was early 2019.

[287] It didn't do a lot of math in vet school, but even you knew that was backward, right?

[288] Yeah, we had no plan to try to tackle this.

[289] We had absolutely no idea.

[290] It was so stressful for sure.

[291] And Thomas Griner, he's a vet.

[292] He was our classmate.

[293] He and I were working together.

[294] And early 2019, he invited us to his church to attend FPU.

[295] Oh, wow.

[296] And Nicole, she was really excited about it.

[297] I was very hesitant.

[298] I was like, you know, we make what we make.

[299] What's this Dave guy going to tell us that we don't already know about money?

[300] Boy, was I wrong.

[301] So early 2019, we went through FPU.

[302] We actually missed week nine, the last one, because our son was born.

[303] Oh, wow.

[304] And him coming into the world, it just kind of changed everything.

[305] That's the icing on the cake.

[306] We got to get rid of this.

[307] and we don't want him to have to go through what we did go through what we did we want to be able to pay for his college one day so he was born in early 2019 we had like a thousand dollars worth of cell phone debt 29 ,000 between two vehicles and the remaining 432 ,000 was our student loans and so it was like late 2019 we started in on my half of the student loans and we still we still didn't even really know if we could do it.

[308] It seemed like such a huge mountain.

[309] And then.

[310] Such a timeline.

[311] Early 2020, COVID.

[312] Thanks, COVID.

[313] It helped us so much.

[314] So, you know, we got the pause on the interest, and that's when we just really.

[315] We were able to through everything.

[316] And y 'all were essential, so you kept working like crazy people.

[317] Worked more than, yeah, yeah.

[318] And you weren't part of the 99 .9 % of Americans who just sat.

[319] You all looked at this as an opportunity.

[320] It saved us.

[321] Probably $80 ,000, $90 ,000 of interest.

[322] You know what, I bet it did.

[323] Mm -hmm.

[324] Over five, that's pretty time.

[325] That's right, because you hit it exactly right.

[326] Yeah.

[327] That's amazing.

[328] We started the loans just before COVID hit.

[329] Just before you all.

[330] Wow.

[331] And then early this summer, we actually decided to move to Greenville.

[332] We had been living in Georgia the entire time.

[333] So we sold our house, took some of the equity from it and paid off the rest of her.

[334] Yeah.

[335] Her loans right before the payment started back.

[336] Oh, perfect.

[337] So perfect timing.

[338] And then took new vet jobs there.

[339] Exactly.

[340] Are y 'all working the same practice?

[341] We actually are.

[342] Large animals?

[343] Small animal, what?

[344] Small.

[345] Small animal.

[346] And now y 'all are 300 plus with no dead.

[347] That's right.

[348] We've got to get a house again.

[349] So that's where we're headed next.

[350] We're in 3B now.

[351] Way to go.

[352] That's a different house when you don't owe 400 ,000 dollars.

[353] That's right.

[354] It's going to be better.

[355] Well, you don't need a bedroom for Sally Mae.

[356] No. That's pretty cool.

[357] Way to go, y 'all.

[358] Thank you.

[359] You got to feel like I can do anything.

[360] anything like you've got a superpower it's a weight weight going for sure yeah yeah all right hey can i can i ask you a hard question sure i want you to speak on behalf of everybody in this industry okay um and i say this industry that's not true and with this mindset millions of people go through fp u and they know i don't know what i'm doing yeah there's a whole bunch of people that make a lot of money that think ain't nobody going to tell me and they're real smart and they got a lot of fancy letters after their name and some huge frame diplomas on their walls and a huge student loan debt to go with it.

[361] And a huge student loan debt and they can't breathe and they're arrogant at the same time.

[362] What finally got through to you?

[363] Because what you said, I hear that all the time from my medical doctor buddies my nurse practitioner buddies.

[364] What's his Ramsey guy?

[365] Like what's that?

[366] Oh, okay, just live on less than you?

[367] Okay man. like that's a hard thing to get through that ego yeah yeah no it was um you know just going through the class it all made sense and and when i when i actually sat down and figured up the numbers and did the calculations it's like yeah this would work like all we've got to do is do it we have to set our mind to it and just do it just plow through and go yeah so once i actually ran the numbers that's what flipped the mindset it's so daunting looking at the big picture like that and then if you kind of scale it back and do one step at a time like like the baby step show it's it's much more manageable how do you eat an elephant a bite at a time exactly right yeah that's right way to go y 'all thank you thank you so proud of you who was who was cheering you on telling you could do it um so thomas of course yeah got us started and then uh our good friends marcy and eric they're watching hey and then my parents as well all right very good anybody roll their eyes and say you're crazy a lot of it came up quite a bit at work and we just mentioned what we were doing and some people were like you know yeah that's cool some people looked at us like we had six heads it's like what you're throwing $10 ,000 a month out the window you know when you could be buying a bass boat and foregoing that many years of retirement savings it's just yeah yeah yeah yeah 53 months I mean you've been scratching for a while yeah this is really deal.

[368] And do you have the junkiest car pulling into the parking lot?

[369] Not really because I was part of our debt, right?

[370] Oh, there you go.

[371] Yeah.

[372] So a stupid move is like six months before I graduate of V -150.

[373] I bought a brand new F -150.

[374] Oh, of course.

[375] Well, that's required.

[376] I had to have it.

[377] It's required.

[378] I've still got that truck.

[379] It's 10 years old now, but it's paid for.

[380] Well, treat it right and you can give it to your child with 13.

[381] That's right.

[382] That's right.

[383] Great job, Lee and Nicole.

[384] Way to go, y 'all.

[385] We've got the live and give box for you.

[386] It has in it.

[387] The Baby Steps Millionaire's book.

[388] You'll be there in a minute if you're not already.

[389] And, of course, the Total Money Makeover book as well, and Financial Peace University, which did it for you guys.

[390] And you guys can, of course, give that to somebody or go back through again, whatever you need to do.

[391] All of this is for you to enjoy or to give away, the live and give box.

[392] So congratulations.

[393] Very proud of y 'all, heroes.

[394] Thank you.

[395] You kicked it, man. That's a long run right there.

[396] It is a big deal.

[397] All right, Lee and Nicole, a couple of veterinarians and Greenvale, South Carolina these days, making four, or paid off $462 ,053 months, making $180 up to 305.

[398] Count it down!

[399] Let's hear a debt -free scream!

[400] Three, two, one.

[401] We're debt -free!

[402] Yeah!

[403] That's how it's done right there.

[404] It is amazing that.

[405] for a math nerd like me, that when you crunch numbers and can see that you can do it, how math becomes hope.

[406] Yeah.

[407] Oh, yeah.

[408] Nobody thinks of math being hope, right?

[409] But when you go, wait a minute, I can do that.

[410] The first time I ever saw $100 a month invested from age 25 to age 65 at, you know, a decent gross stock mutual fund becomes $1 ,176 ,000, the power of compound interest, I thought, I could do $100, and I'm only $22.

[411] That's the first time I saw it.

[412] And I thought, I'm going to be a millionaire.

[413] This is really going to be me. Bing!

[414] Math gave me hope.

[415] It's amazing to me how many very, very smart people don't sit down and do that very thing.

[416] Because like him, he just ran the numbers.

[417] And then he thought, he's a smart guy.

[418] He's like, oh, I've got a path now.

[419] I can do it.

[420] I can see it.

[421] This is the Ramsey Show.

[422] Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, is my co -host today.

[423] Alex is in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

[424] Hey, Alex, how are you?

[425] How's it going, guys?

[426] How are you?

[427] Better than we deserve, sir.

[428] What's up?

[429] Hey, so I am 20 years old.

[430] A little backstory about me. I am actually married.

[431] I know it's quite a young age with my beautiful high school sweetheart of five years.

[432] My father and my grandfather unfortunately passed away just a couple months ago.

[433] They mainly helped me when it came to finances, even though they were still heavy plastic swipers.

[434] My mom kept my dad's debit card away quite frequently because of that reason.

[435] Um, my wife and I are kind of just at a standstill right now.

[436] Um, we, the way we're saving money, I just feel like isn't right.

[437] Um, we, we make about, uh, about $76, $78 ,000 a year.

[438] We both do patient transport at the university hospital.

[439] Um, and, uh, we don't have much saved up.

[440] Um, and we're just kind of, we've got about $22 ,000 or $2 ,000 in debt, $22 ,000, including our cars.

[441] Um, We just bought our first home with a condo, and we're just kind of seeing what would be the best way and where we should start paying our debt off.

[442] Okay.

[443] It sounds like you've got the opportunity at a young age to really start a whole plan and implement every detail of that plan to get you to where you want to go.

[444] And right now, all you're doing is just trying to make sure we keep the lights on, food on the table and nobody picks up anything repose it right right right yeah instead of a plan instead of a plan you're kind of in survival right did your granddad or dad leave you any money um no they did not um they this is all of our all of our money when it comes to um with the money that we use for like down payments on our condo and for you know down payments on our vehicles and stuff has done 100 % self -earned we haven't received any money we haven't loaned any money from family or anything.

[445] So I want you to internalize really deeply in your heart, what Dave just said.

[446] You and your wife at a really young age are deciding to change everything about how y 'all do marriage, how you do money, and what your kid, when he reaches to be 20, when your daughter reaches the age of 20, what their life will look like because of the decisions you'll make today.

[447] Yeah, that's a big deal.

[448] It's a huge deal what you're doing.

[449] I'm proud of you.

[450] Yeah, way to go.

[451] Thank you.

[452] Very, very good question the way you're where your mind is the way you framed the question is you're in a really good place so what we do is we we have a class called financial peace university that's nine weeks long and about 10 million people have been through the class now uh okay over the last you know 30 years and so uh and it's of course the class has evolved and has gotten better over time and uh but but in its current form if you go through that it's everything you've should have been taught about money before we let you out of school, you know, but nobody teaches it hardly.

[453] So we're going to give that to you guys as a belated wedding gift.

[454] And I want you to go through the class with your wife, both of you attend, both of you go to the nine lessons, both of you buy off on, here's what we're going to do, you join hands, you get a very clear, high definition picture of what the future looks like.

[455] and what the price has to be paid to get to that future.

[456] And when you do that, you'll go do it, and you're going to be in a position to, you know, again, like John said, you'll be very wealthy.

[457] You haven't made any huge mistakes.

[458] You haven't been thrashing around.

[459] And I think that's the gift your granddad and your dad gave you.

[460] They didn't give you any real insight in where money comes from and how to think big about it because they didn't have any.

[461] uh we know that because they didn't leave you any but the uh but they did kind of keep you tempered to where you haven't gone crazy like a lot of the people in the public have gone so you've not got a way huge piles of debt you know you've got not gone you know some silly numbers in the numbers you gave me there there's some trouble there there's some problems there but there's nothing nothing bad nothing super bad so if you'll address the stuff that's there that we teach you and go do this you're going to be in a really really really good position.

[462] Hang on.

[463] Austin will pick up and we'll get you signed up and get you guys to go through that at 20 years old.

[464] God, I'm mighty.

[465] I wish I'd gone through that at 20.

[466] Oh, dude.

[467] Don't even get me started.

[468] It'd be awesome.

[469] Natalie is in Logan, Utah.

[470] Hey, Natalie, welcome to the Ramsey show.

[471] Oh, my gosh.

[472] Hi, you guys.

[473] This is so exciting to talk to you.

[474] My heart is racing, which seems to I'm in my living room, but I'm so excited to talk to you guys today.

[475] Well, we're excited to talk to you.

[476] How can we help?

[477] okay so I am a mom I have two little boys I've got a three year old and a five month old and so ever since our three year old is born we put a small amount of money to the side for his future and so what I'm wondering is I recently found out about 529 plans so I'm trying to figure out we've already have some money saved up and so it's like what's the best way to invest that for our children should we invest in Doc, should we put it in CDs, or I guess, what do you think about 529 accounts?

[478] That's really what I'm wondering here.

[479] Well, 529 is used for education.

[480] It grows tax -free, which is wonderful.

[481] And we always recommend you put that in good mutual funds that you control.

[482] 529, in other words, what we're suggesting is mutual funds, and the way it's treated for taxes is dictated by 529.

[483] And just like IRA is not a real investment, IRA is how an investment is treated for taxes.

[484] And so that's what you're looking for here.

[485] So if you're saving for a kid's college, 529 is the way to go.

[486] And you can learn about them.

[487] They're really easy to learn about.

[488] Just go to, you know, go to Ramsey Solutions .com.

[489] Click on SmartVestor Pro.

[490] You can sit down with some of the folks that we endorse around the country for helping people with the heart of a teacher with their investments and they can help you get that started.

[491] How much have you been putting aside for these kids?

[492] So both of my boys get $40 a month, so it's $80 a month that we put away for them.

[493] Okay, all right, not bad at all.

[494] Good.

[495] And so, yeah, they can sit down with you and help you put that together.

[496] And, you know, that's going to turn into some money.

[497] I mean, it's going to end up with some money there.

[498] An ESA is the 529's cousin, educational savings account, same thing, by a mutual fund, and qualified as an ESA.

[499] The maximum on it is $2 ,000 per year, which would be $166 to $66 .67 per child per month.

[500] And if you did that from zero to $18, you'd have about $125 ,000, give or $125 ,000, give or take, in there, in that $529.

[501] You would have only put in about, let's see, $2 ,000 times 18.

[502] You would put in about $36 ,000.

[503] So you got about $90 ,000 growth.

[504] that's tax -free.

[505] And so that, that from a, for fully funding a baby at $2 ,000 of your $166 ,66, 67 a month, that set you up.

[506] And that today would send you to an in -state school for your undergrad.

[507] That would take care of it.

[508] What is, what's the max on a 529?

[509] It depends on the state, 10 ,000 a year, usually.

[510] You can put more in it than you should.

[511] Or sometimes you can load it up, like three or four years, put 10 ,000 in, and then quit.

[512] Set it and forget it.

[513] It'll grow.

[514] It'll grow up to be enough then, and you don't have to keep adding to it every month the whole 18 years.

[515] And I've heard recently that there was adjustment made the last couple of years that if you're, you end up putting enough money in the 529, your kid goes to college, that they can roll out into an IRA at some point?

[516] You can move it to a Roth IRA, but the limitations on it are pretty severe.

[517] So I really wouldn't.

[518] I mean, think that way.

[519] Yeah, I would more likely move it to another family member to go to school.

[520] Okay.

[521] More than likely.

[522] It's going to be a better use of the money.

[523] money but because the formula they're using that what you can move and how long you have to wait to move it and all that you know they there's a good idea and then they mucked it up with too many rules but the but either way it's still a great place to save money for a kid for college if you're if they're not going to go to college it's not a great place because it has to be used for education for someone or that 90 ,000 dollars in growth will be penalized and so you're not going to the fact that it grew tax -free all that wonderful idea is gone if you don't use it for that so you're going to make sure that that's what we're all up for but here's the thing i have never met someone oh by the way if you if the kid gets a scholarship you can take that much out of the 529 and pay no taxes on it at all so if your kid gets a $2 ,000 scholarship you can take $2 ,000 out of the 529 put it in your pocket oh that's always been the argument what if my kid gets a soccer scholarship or is a genius you can you know if you get a scholarship you can take it out but here's the thing i've been doing this 30 years i have yet to run into a single person call me up said davy told me to save up for my kids college and i hate it i hate you i screwed up everything i hate you this is the ramsie show from the headquarters of ramsie solutions it's the ramsie show where we help people build wealth do work that they love and create actual amazing relationships dr john Deloney, number one bestselling author, is my co -host today, Ramsey Personality and host of the Dr. John Deloney Show.

[524] Own Your Past, Change, Your Future was his first one.

[525] You can check that out or how to build a non -anxious life.

[526] Second number one bestseller just came out last fall and check it out as well.

[527] Jonathan is with us in Fort Myers, Florida.

[528] Hey, Jonathan, what's up in your world?

[529] Hi, how are you doing today, Dave?

[530] Better than I deserve.

[531] What's up?

[532] Um, so I had a situation happen a couple years ago, uh, during COVID.

[533] My mother passed away.

[534] Um, she was actually, uh, killed by her, um, her new husband.

[535] Oh my gosh.

[536] Man. Yeah.

[537] They were both in their late 70s.

[538] Um, and they, uh, they left me with quite a bit of money.

[539] Wow.

[540] So, uh, I had never, uh, I never made more than about 85 grand a year and then was left with a couple million dollars, and I hope I've been doing the right steps with what I've done with it.

[541] I just wanted to get mostly some reassurance that I've been doing the right things or what you would recommend moving forward with this.

[542] Oh, my gosh.

[543] How have you navigated the last few years with the loss of your mom?

[544] You know, the first year wasn't too well.

[545] You know, kind of went backwards probably a little bit, and then trying to, I got, couple kids and I tried to get myself together and be better for my kids and I think I've been been doing pretty well the last two years how old are you Jonathan uh 36 okay and I assume he the uh the husband's been put in jail uh no he killed himself afterwards oh my gosh yeah in our in our house that we grew up in oh I'm so sorry Well, that just makes it, I mean, managing $2 million that you don't know how to manage is freaky enough, and then you put this layer on it, it just gets super freaky, right?

[546] Yeah, yeah, it's a little more than that.

[547] We were left about $2 million, $2 .5 million from our parents, and then he left us another $1 .1 million.

[548] Oh, wow.

[549] Which we weren't expecting.

[550] We didn't know that we were written into as well.

[551] Wow.

[552] Does that money feel weird?

[553] Are you happy to spend it?

[554] I haven't really, I wouldn't say I've spent it.

[555] I've used most of it to live off of the last couple years from the new husband.

[556] He left us two IRAs, a traditional IRA and a Roth IRA.

[557] So I've been pulling out.

[558] Let's get, yeah, let me get past all the, right, and just answer your question.

[559] So how much money do you have?

[560] today um today let me just flip over here i've got total between properties and everything yes i would say about um three and a half million four okay all right and you're still working making 80 no i haven't been working since the day she died oh wow okay what did you do for a living i worked in restaurants mostly um bartender salmallier and server and the reason I didn't go back to work was a lot of that the reason why I made good money was because I was always forward about my life and talking to people about things in my life and I just felt like I couldn't do that anymore well you can't go into this story part of the story anyway wow okay are you are you married still or single no I've never been married I'm single you said you had kids Yeah, two children, one that I have full custody, I have one that I split custody.

[561] Okay.

[562] An important part of your recovery moving forward is you're going to have to get a job.

[563] You're going to have to get a purpose, a thing to do, a thing to go to, a thing that you are a part of, that the world's going to be better because you were a part of it.

[564] You got that?

[565] Yeah, I feel that as well.

[566] Okay.

[567] Yeah, it's time to go back to work, Jonathan, doing something.

[568] Yeah, I'm actually starting a business this year.

[569] Tor boat business.

[570] A what business?

[571] Tour boat.

[572] A teakie boat, tour boat.

[573] Oh, okay.

[574] All right.

[575] You're buying the boat and going to do tours.

[576] And do trips on the boat.

[577] When?

[578] The boat's going to be delivered in April or May of this year, and we should be operating by June.

[579] Okay.

[580] What did you spend on that boat?

[581] 220 ,000 total.

[582] Okay.

[583] All right.

[584] Now, you're going to be leaning in, learning how to run a, of business learning how to handle and operate the boat you're going to be leaning in all of this i really want you to i want you to go make a living for your sake because at 36 doing nothing is not a plan okay uh for emotionally spiritually john's right about that now so let's pretend that you're making a living you don't need this money then right so now we just need to invest this money well yes okay jonathan i buy two things for investments.

[585] The first thing I tell people, and I was with a bunch of wealthy people this weekend, do not put money in something you don't understand.

[586] Don't do it because I do it, don't do it because somebody else says to do it, or you read an article once.

[587] That's a nightmare way to lose money.

[588] Put money in something you understand.

[589] Now, that may mean you need to go to school a little bit by sitting with an investment advisor and letting them teach you.

[590] But I buy real estate that I pay cash for because I like the real estate business.

[591] I've done that.

[592] already okay and I buy mutual funds and that's all I buy okay I've got about total about 1 .8 million in real estate okay and it's making money right we I have one house that's gonna be worth about 1 .2 million and I'm planning on renting that gonna be when why is it not worth that now that it's about to be finished being built and I think in March or April of this year it'll be done okay all right so you're going to have and then i have a i have another rental house and then i have the house i live in okay that's fine great now manage those to where they make a good return on the amount of money you have tied up in them and then sit down with a good someone like a smart vestor pro you can find them at ramsie solutions dot com and they'll help you sit down and start to understand some mutual funds and invest it but i mean if you make 10 % on three million dollars average across those investments then you'd have 300 ,000 a year coming in if you don't touch it in seven years that three million at 10 percent would be worth about four million or would be worth about six million in seven more years it'd be worth about 12 and seven more years would be worth 24 that's 21 years from today you're 36 that puts you at 57 with 24 million I like that okay that's you working providing your own living not touching these investments and letting them just grow at an average growth rate of 10 % a year and that's invested in mutual funds and real estate now it's a little more complicated than that but basically that's how the math will roll out the trick here to the thing is put money and stuff that's steady and is predictable not super conservative but not we're not taking any big risks here we're trying to reinvent the crypto world or some bull crap like that.

[593] And don't buy a tiki boat for a quarter million dollars.

[594] And then six months go and be like, well, I'm going to do this.

[595] And I'm going to buy a snow cone stand.

[596] And then you're going to stay on track.

[597] Small business yourself broke.

[598] Yeah.

[599] Stay on track with that.

[600] And so you're now in the tiki boat business for the next decade, buddy.

[601] And you're going to make a go of it.

[602] You know, John's right.

[603] You don't get to change.

[604] This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[605] Hey good folks, the back to school madness is upon us.

[606] It's hitting us for right now.

[607] We've got travel and work and all these forms to fill out now and sports to travel to and on and on.

[608] My family's schedule is so packed and we haven't even begun talking about things like exercise and date nights and counseling and church and home projects.

[609] And those are the things that make our life even worth living.

[610] Here's what I've learned.

[611] When it comes to taking care of me, I have to put on my oxygen mask first.

[612] And that means that I have to do the things that keep me well and whole.

[613] and I know that you have to do those same things too.

[614] So don't skip the things that matter to you, including regular exercise, hanging out with your friends and regular therapy appointments.

[615] And when it comes to therapy, contact my friends at BetterHelp.

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[618] And therapy can help you learn positive coping skills, how to set and practice boundaries, how to become the best version of yourself and most importantly, how to find peace in all of this chaos.

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[622] Visit BetterHelp .com slash Deloney today for 10 % off your first month.

[623] That's BetterHelp, H -E -L -P -com slash Deloni.

[624] Dr. John Deloney.

[625] Ramsey Personality is my co -host and is with us.

[626] in New Orleans.

[627] Hi, Ann.

[628] How are you?

[629] Hello, I'm fine.

[630] Thank you so much for taking my call.

[631] Our honor.

[632] How can we know?

[633] Okay, my question is, my husband and I, my ex -husband and I, were a co -signer on my son's condo back in 2004.

[634] And since that time, my son is unable to pay his mortgage because he's unemployed.

[635] He lost his job.

[636] Since 2004?

[637] Before?

[638] No, no, no. We purchased the condo in 2004.

[639] This past April, he lost his job and he's been unable to pay the mortgage.

[640] How many times did you pay it since 2004?

[641] Oh, it's happened before about 10 years ago.

[642] He ran into trouble paying his mortgage and he was able to do a forbearance and, of course, I assisted financially at that time.

[643] And you keep using the word.

[644] Unable?

[645] Is he unable or is he unwilling?

[646] Why do you not have a job since April?

[647] One of my best friends in the world is paraplegic, he is unable.

[648] No, no. He's physically capable.

[649] He has not, and he has not found a job since April.

[650] He says he's looking and he can't bond a job.

[651] On the hottest hiring markets in human history.

[652] He's chosen not to work.

[653] I guess so.

[654] Okay, let's use, I just want to be, I just want to call a spade a spade because it helps to make decisions, right?

[655] Yeah.

[656] Now, you're still on the mortgage?

[657] Yes.

[658] My ex -husband and I are co -signer, so we're responsible for paying the note if he does not.

[659] And he's not been paying it.

[660] Yes, so I have been paying it since April.

[661] My ex -husband made about three of the mortgage payments.

[662] So now I want to know what would be the best avenue for me to convince my son to sell it, let it go for foreclosure, and I told him, or else you get a job and you pick up the payment.

[663] But I don't want it to go to foreclosure because I don't want it to affect my credit.

[664] I haven't, my credit rating is 820.

[665] Every time it's paid late, it affects your credit.

[666] Yes, I understand.

[667] So I just don't know if there's any options for me. Is he on the note at all?

[668] Is he on the note?

[669] My son is the owner of it.

[670] Yeah, he's on the note.

[671] She's the coach signer, yeah.

[672] You can't force him to sell it.

[673] You can just talk him into selling it.

[674] Will he sell it if you tell him to?

[675] No, he's dragging his feet about that.

[676] Yeah, no kidding.

[677] Well, he's dragging his feet because he knows you're going to pay.

[678] For 20 years, you bail them out.

[679] Yes, I understand that.

[680] And you've probably given him some stern talking tos over the last 20 years.

[681] Yes, I have.

[682] You still paid it.

[683] So, yeah, he's dragging his feet because you taught him how to.

[684] I think you have to sit down and say, I'm not paying this rent.

[685] Dave, I'll leave it to you.

[686] I mean, it's going to ruin your...

[687] Yeah, you're going to get foreclosed on if he gets foreclosed.

[688] Yeah.

[689] That's how this works.

[690] Can you afford to buy him out?

[691] I could.

[692] But I just don't know what my best options are because if I buy, if he would tell me the condo, then it's mine, right, for me to do what I want with.

[693] exactly and then you can then you just sell it then he you sell it and right resell it and get your money back out and at least that way you didn't lose anything um yeah you could just say all right let's get a praise i'm gonna buy it from you and then you put it on the market and sell it that's what's best for you that is unbelievably aggravating and it's not necessarily what's best for him what's best for him is to experience some pain, but he's not going to in this scenario unless you do.

[694] That's the problem with co -signing.

[695] You get to experience the pain with him.

[696] And he's going to play chicken with you, and you've got a lot more to lose than he does financially, right?

[697] Yes, I do.

[698] Yeah.

[699] And what's the condo worth?

[700] Maybe about 40 ,000.

[701] Worth?

[702] Forty -five.

[703] No, I would, well, he would be, he would, be lucky if he could get 60 for it.

[704] Oh, my God.

[705] What do you owe on it?

[706] 30.

[707] Okay.

[708] And he's got 11 more years.

[709] Okay.

[710] Go tell him that, you know, he can no longer screw up your life with his laziness.

[711] He needs to sell you this condo, even if you buy it for whatever, have a real estate agent, give you an appraisal, buy it for that amount, put it back on the market and resell it, and he needs to move.

[712] Okay.

[713] Yeah.

[714] That protection.

[715] you I'm for some reason I thought this was a $600 ,000 condo it's a $60 ,000 yeah just you can you're you're you may lose a couple thousand bucks here or there by moving all this gyration around but you need to get out of this trap you put yourself in and the trap is co -signing you can't get out of the trap you're either going to be an enabler or you're not going to pay and then he's going to get foreclosed on which means you're going to have a foreclosure on you and then they're going to come around looking for all of you wanting some money out of y 'all because the condo won't bring enough at repo to even cover the old mortgage on it but it's a piece of crap condo to start with and and i'm the one and i'm sorry will you forgive yourself for the divorce finally yeah yes you're still trying to make that right with him stop 20 years yes you're going to lose you're going to lose some money but you're also going to lose your relationship with your son's not worth it yeah i would i would buy it from him have him move out and turn around put it right back on the market and sell it and if you lose a little bit that way that gets you out of this trap and then you have a standalone relationship with your son that's mother's son that is no longer cosigner because cosigner's putting a strain on everything it's making you do things you're not you don't feel good about and it makes you resent your son every time that phone rings you you feel your chest tighten up because what's he going to ask like it's it's altered your relationship what's he going to ask for now yeah this time because you're aggravated with him like we are for being lazy not working since april my god how much does it take to pay the condo note on 30 000 bucks i mean you can you can do like do uber one day a month and pull this off this is about the laziest human i've run into uh that's pretty rough i mean really yeah think about this just i mean it's not like it's a lot of money i don't even know how the boy's eating Well, oh, yeah, I do, Ann.

[716] Yeah, Ann's making sure he's got groceries.

[717] Yeah, so, Ann, you've got to stop it.

[718] It's time.

[719] You put him on, put him out and let him figure out how to do life and just love him from a distance that doesn't include your checkbook for the rest of his life.

[720] And that's the biggest favor you can do him and yourself.

[721] And moms and dads out there never, ever co -signed.

[722] It's not an act of love.

[723] It's not.

[724] It's the ultimate enabling.

[725] and it locks you into enabling because out of self -preservation, you have to cover the stupidity of the other party.

[726] What about this, Dave?

[727] I'm trying to think of how this situation for her could go wrong.

[728] Is there a moment when, and again, I know I'm speaking in ratios here, but $50 ,000 against what Ann has is not a lot of money.

[729] Can she buy this thing and hand it over to him and dust her hands off walk away?

[730] Is that too much enabling?

[731] I wouldn't do that, no. Yeah.

[732] I think he's not going to move is what I think he's not going to sell it to his mom yeah well then I would just take the pain of being foreclosed on you would I just stop okay you're either going to sell it to me or the days of me giving you money are done they're over and that's what I'm getting yeah either you're going to sell this to me or you're going to have to figure it out okay I'm done okay because that's this is so bad for him yeah she stunned his emotional growth I mean, he's six years freaking old.

[733] Yeah.

[734] You can't get a job since April to pay condo notes on 30 ,000 bucks.

[735] This is lame.

[736] Yeah.

[737] This is really a lame boy.

[738] Especially when we talked to elementary school teachers trapped in a New York apartment during COVID who pay off six figures because they drive and scratch and claw and flip and do whatever they got to do.

[739] Yeah.

[740] Yeah.

[741] It's tough, man. Tid could sell enough clothing out of his closet.

[742] Plasma.

[743] Yeah, plasma your way to that one.

[744] It's just not.

[745] money.

[746] So, yeah, honey, you got it.

[747] You got to get him free of you and you got to get free of him in order to have a decent relationship with him and in order for him to ever be a real man. And it's going to cost you that precious 820 that you're really, you're really proud of.

[748] It's going to cost you that.

[749] Who cares about that?

[750] Let that stupid thing go.

[751] Oh, my gosh.

[752] Now, condo's never been late.

[753] She's paid it on time every time.

[754] It's never been late.

[755] It wouldn't be 820.

[756] This is the Ramsey show.

[757] Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey, personality is my co -host today.

[758] Ryan and Haley are with us on the debt -free stage.

[759] Yep, right here in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions.

[760] How are you guys?

[761] Wonderful.

[762] How are you?

[763] Better than we deserve.

[764] Where do you live?

[765] Lewisburg, Kansas, about 45 minutes south of Kansas City.

[766] So, yeah, you need to be wearing some Kansas City gear today for sure.

[767] Oh, yeah.

[768] Wide right, baby.

[769] Yeah.

[770] Here we go, man. Here we go.

[771] Way to go.

[772] Good stop.

[773] so how much debt have you guys paid off uh 458 ,680 wow love it how long did that take uh six years six years and your range of income during that time well when we first started it was around 100 our peak was 260 and we went down to 112 now okay that was with the job change okay so all right very cool good good good and uh 459000 what kind of of debt was this a little bit everything of course um so we have a few cars that we paid off um of course our student loans we paid for um credit cards and our house paid up so right looking at weird people yes i love it very good great job what's this housework uh right at 350 good for you man that's awesome how old are you to 35 and have a paid for house and now don't have to work as much so took a different job and um we've downsized ones you're job and all that kind of stuff.

[774] Finally got to do the thing he likes to do.

[775] It doesn't have to work.

[776] Very, very cool.

[777] Excellent job.

[778] Excellent job.

[779] Well, for those of you out there in America that don't know, we have a program here at Ramsey called Smart Dollar, and it's from the financial wellness side of things.

[780] What happens is companies buy Smart Dollar and provide the financial curriculum to free to their employees.

[781] and it's having a massive impact on employees all across America.

[782] U -Haul had a bunch of their folks come on here a few months ago and do debt -free screams.

[783] We've had, you know, Costco has taken their folks through it.

[784] And companies of all size, it's not just huge ones like U -Haul and Costco.

[785] But I understand that your company bought Smart Dollar, and that's what got you guys started.

[786] Is that right?

[787] For the most part, I mean, we were already doing the program really before, but it just added an extra when we started.

[788] working there because I started working there about eight months ago.

[789] Oh, okay.

[790] So you were well on your way.

[791] And this just helped you.

[792] The new job that you got that you love is the company that has smart dollars.

[793] Yep.

[794] Well, that's good news.

[795] It's great.

[796] Okay.

[797] So a little bit worried about it there for a minute.

[798] All right.

[799] And so your company name that furnishes smart dollars, what?

[800] Strategy LLC.

[801] What do they do?

[802] It's a marketing company, web development, and then IT.

[803] Okay.

[804] What do you do?

[805] I'm in the IT side.

[806] Okay.

[807] Cool.

[808] And Haley, what did you, used to do?

[809] I'm a nurse.

[810] You are a nurse.

[811] I am.

[812] Okay.

[813] Good.

[814] Very good.

[815] So what happened this many months ago the oldest decided.

[816] Even before strategy LLC was doing it, you guys were already game on and then you 60 months into this or six years into this, you knock it out.

[817] What got all this started?

[818] John's right.

[819] Well, we got married back in 2017 and then, you know, we started making some decent money.

[820] And so when you make decent money, you go out and buy new things.

[821] Oh, of course.

[822] Bought three new vehicles within like six months brand new so you know a lot of depreciation for two drivers for two that makes sense yeah yeah they're toys too so motorcycles you know all that so we uh bought those and then you know when we're paying 2 ,000 a month on just payments good Lord for three vehicles good Lord yeah it kind is overwhelming it was a wake -up call yeah kind of a wake -up call kind of thing so then our son we he was born 19 um he's staying home today but uh uh he was born 19 or 21 sorry 21 and uh we were like we just want to have a good life for him and so we just kind of buckled down before um and just went after it so okay very fine so you ran into us earlier yeah so and then it was just added onto when you went to work for uh strategy LLC yep okay it was it was awesome program Haley how did you convince him to sell the motorcycle we didn't oh okay they're all paid for it and we got to keep them you just did We paid them off, okay.

[823] We paid them off.

[824] She's smiling.

[825] We got to keep them.

[826] She's riding out.

[827] She has her own as well.

[828] So what are these bikes?

[829] You married well, Ryan.

[830] They're Harley's.

[831] Yeah, I got a street glide, and then she's got a sportsster.

[832] I love it.

[833] Very fun.

[834] You are so much cooler than I am.

[835] Haley, it's embarrassing.

[836] That's a very low bar, but you're way cooler.

[837] Man. Yeah.

[838] Way to go, you guys.

[839] Thank you.

[840] And you're how old?

[841] 35.

[842] And you have paid for her house for $350 ,000.

[843] thousand dollars.

[844] How's that feel?

[845] It's amazing.

[846] It's just different.

[847] I mean, it's hard to imagine it really.

[848] We actually made our last payment and it was like October 1st I think we did and it's still not settling yet.

[849] We had made the goal to ourselves that we wanted to pay it off by Christmas and that would be our Christmas present to ourselves.

[850] So we really cranked down and worked extra shifts and he was working a couple of extra side jobs to make the extra money and we were able to pay it in October, not in December.

[851] I love it.

[852] Yeah.

[853] Very cool.

[854] Very cool.

[855] Man, that's a, it's a great place you're.

[856] Six years is a long time to crank on this.

[857] It is.

[858] How did you stay with it?

[859] Well, we really were like hyper focused on in the last two years mainly.

[860] We really enjoyed like your podcasts and the books and everything that we've been reading over the years.

[861] But the last two years are really when we've been cranking down and focusing on it.

[862] A lot, a lot of, or culture will tell us that success is a dollar amount and we don't often ask the question like what what I actually want to be doing we just get good at something and then they reward us with money and we do more of it and we do it faster and then all of a sudden we're making great money and everyone's telling us look how lucky you should feel and inside you're dying right oh yeah talk to the person who feels like they have golden handcuffs they're stuck because quote unquote they make all this money you look like a guy who's free you look like a family who's free and y 'all made a choice to basically cut your income in half right we did but it looks like it was the right thing for you yeah you just got to i mean as long as you know focus and you work and if you have a spouse you work with them together um you have to do it both together it can't be separate um and that's the biggest thing we just were we were helping each other kind of feeding off each other and i think that's the best thing or if you don't have any spouse or anybody you got to find somebody to keep you accountable that's the that's the accountability do you get some positive peer pressure with the guys at your company all doing this at the same time yeah I mean, they're actually, it's actually pretty cool because they're all, no, we pay the house off and they're all like, you know, now we want to do this too.

[863] Yeah.

[864] You're kind of helping.

[865] That's kind of, yeah, and it's very good feeling.

[866] I mean, we don't like to, you know, we're not those type of people, but it's kind of really inspiring and stuff, even for us to be here.

[867] Yeah, there's a difference between bragging and setting an example.

[868] Correct.

[869] Yeah, and you just said an example.

[870] Well done.

[871] Good for you guys.

[872] I'm so proud of you.

[873] Thank you.

[874] Who was cheering you along?

[875] Who was telling you to go for it?

[876] I mean, really, everybody.

[877] Everybody.

[878] Yeah, our whole family, both sides.

[879] My son, your son.

[880] Even though he's only two, he's just been our, like, emotional support guy.

[881] He's been hanging in there with us.

[882] Yeah, my dad started me a lot when he was, we would drive around.

[883] He'd be listening to your podcast, and this was a long, long time ago.

[884] And just never really did it.

[885] And, you know, my dad passed away in 19.

[886] And so we, that was one thing I wanted to do.

[887] is I wanted to finish this.

[888] I wanted to do this and kind of, you know, for him.

[889] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[890] Well, he's smiling.

[891] Oh, yeah.

[892] Smiling from heaven at you right now.

[893] Yeah, what a way to honor your dad, man. That's cool.

[894] Yep, very cool.

[895] All right.

[896] We've got the live and give box for you.

[897] That includes the Baby Steps Millionaire's book.

[898] You're on your way to that for sure.

[899] Total Money Makeover book, Financial Peace University.

[900] You'll be able to give that away since Strategy LLC is furnishing smart dollar to their whole team and tell them thanks for us.

[901] We appreciate it.

[902] sure that's pretty incredible this is what happens employers when you uh when you furnish something like financial wellness like this to your smart dollar program to your employees they uh they're set up to win like this this is incredible all right ryan and haley wow kansas city 459000 paid off in six years making a hundred to 260 count it down let's hear a debt free scream three two one we're debt free Love it.

[903] Way to go, you guys.

[904] Hey, you mentioned something, Dave, and I don't want us to lose.

[905] Now that that company put this benefit out, they're really successful.

[906] He's going to be a better employee.

[907] He's going to be a more peaceful employee.

[908] They get to pay him less.

[909] He's going to knock it out of the park for him.

[910] Smartdollar .com.

[911] Check it out, boys.

[912] Dr. John Deloney -Ramsey Personality, number one bestselling author is my co -host.

[913] today.

[914] Dan is with us in Greenville, South Carolina.

[915] Hi, Dan.

[916] How are you?

[917] Hey, I'm good.

[918] I hope you guys are doing well.

[919] We are, sir.

[920] What's up?

[921] So a question for you about the, I'm on a all -commission position, and in reading your book, in regards to the Hills and Valleys account, they have set up.

[922] So I've got myself budgeted out to the end of April.

[923] And then I've got some about 12 ,000 extra on top of that.

[924] Do I throw that extra 12 ,000 straight at debt?

[925] Or should I be adding another line item into my budget?

[926] No, just throw out of debt.

[927] If you're in baby, are you in baby step two?

[928] Correct.

[929] Yeah, just list your debt smallest to largest.

[930] Every excess dollar you can squeeze out of your budget above your basic living expenses.

[931] You throw it at that.

[932] Now, do you have any money?

[933] Do you have down months?

[934] low where you never where you don't even make enough commission to cover your basics yes yeah so commercial real estate so for instance um December commission check was 67 ,000 for December but the first the the probably six months before that it was zero to a thousand dollars you know so it really varies and so I have to budget myself out for months at a time and my worry is that I I throw some extra money when I have it at some debt, and then maybe a deal doesn't go through or a deal gets extended, and there I am with a paid off car, but I should have had money in my account.

[935] So that's what I'm struggling with there.

[936] Yeah.

[937] You know, what we're trying to do is reasonably predict the volatility.

[938] And how long have you been doing this?

[939] Three years.

[940] Commercial real estate.

[941] Okay.

[942] I mean, you probably can get some comfort from looking at the, patterns if you went back three years.

[943] You should see a trend line up in your income overall.

[944] Your overall income should be going up over three years.

[945] You should be making more three years in than you did the first year, right?

[946] Correct.

[947] Okay.

[948] And you can tell if there's some kind of a rhythm at all to, you know, about how often you see checks coming and going.

[949] But, yeah, you just, you know, the Valley account, if you're going to have an extreme volatility like you do, where you literally have zero or have $1 ,000 or something, then you've got to set aside money for as many months in that Valley account because you're in a valley to cover your basic needs until you get another check -in.

[950] Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about.

[951] So, you know, there's not a – we have to try to predict the future is what we're doing, right?

[952] which of course is an imperfect science but um you know if you had six months this is not your emergency fund this is money to eat with okay this is us planning to make no money for four months so we set four months of basics aside in a separate account that's called the valley account you do that when you have a hill like December with 267 ,000 dollars in one month so the trick is to try to ascertain with some kind of pattern if you look at on your look back, you know, how often am I going to have to dip into this account to eat and to keep the basic lights on and everything above that then you need to dump.

[953] But you should reach a point where you're getting something every month.

[954] You should not continue to get to have zeros the rest of your life.

[955] I mean, you ought to be able to get your pipeline full to where something is coming out all the time.

[956] Now, it might take a little while to get there.

[957] It might be every other month or something, but otherwise, I'm going to put something else in your mix.

[958] You're only elephant hunting, and I'm going to put a few rabbits in your mix as well.

[959] I mean, let's try to do some lease deals or something that's a little smaller, a little more quick to close, that kind of thing than just selling the $35 million apartment complex or whatever.

[960] If you're only hunting elephants, you may have this the rest of your life.

[961] uh but but you really do have to get some something built up to where you're not sitting around hungry waiting on one of these checks you're right so i but the magic is to predict the future that that's tells you how much you got to set aside for how many down months you're going to have and that's very difficult to do in your world but that that is the concept you you nailed it when you called in thanks for joining us uh nothing quite like um even in something as sophisticated as commercial real estate.

[962] Nothing smells bad like a salesman that's broke.

[963] Yeah, and I, the analogy you gave is good, and I think I could put that on everything.

[964] Marriages, on work relationships, on jobs.

[965] So often we sit around waiting for the perfect situation.

[966] It's got to be a home run or I'm not swinging the bat and you end up striking out a whole bunch, right?

[967] Or you get real hungry.

[968] And then it makes you not an effective salesman.

[969] Yep.

[970] And but that elephant hunting man, finding another.

[971] way to get some money that's what i was going to ask him like for those four months are you making calls all day are you out surveying properties all day and you just can't get anything because that may not be your calling man four months you got nothing man that's tough that's tough yeah and and one thirty five million dollar deal does not take four months of 40 every day every day 40 hour work weeks that's right that's not how it works right it's all you're you know when you're on you're be on but you're not there 40 hours they got to talk to their team and their banker and their people but not for 40 hours a week for four months you need to have other stuff in your pipeline and that's the nature of the real estate business i've been in it my whole life in one way or another all right deborah is with us in milwaukee hi deborah how are you hi there um thank you for having me sure how can we help okay um my daughter has actually um introduced me to your name in December.

[972] Okay.

[973] And I've been listening to you quite a bit.

[974] So, real quick, my, I'm retired.

[975] I've been retired for a while, and I'm $25 ,000 in credit card debt.

[976] Rutrow.

[977] Yep, Rutrow was right.

[978] I guess as I'm listening, as I've listened to you guys, the different times in this like, and I see that I've turned that blind eye to what was happening.

[979] and so when I just look at everything, I don't know how to start everything.

[980] So I've signed up for everything that you have.

[981] And I got the book the other day.

[982] And but my income is.

[983] I am 68.

[984] 68.

[985] And how much in credit card debt have you run up?

[986] 25 .5.

[987] 25 ,000.

[988] Do you have any money?

[989] No. None.

[990] I mean, well, you know, one, I, um, I, um, I, I, I, only have about 20 ,000 in my 401k because I messed, well, about 30 ,000 because I messed that up, too.

[991] What are you living on?

[992] You have a retirement income from your old job?

[993] No, that's done.

[994] And I get 3879.

[995] That's my income every month.

[996] Is that Social Security?

[997] Yeah, that's our Social Security.

[998] If Social Security, I get something from a job that I work for, about 10 years back in the 80s.

[999] How's your health?

[1000] My health is okay.

[1001] My health is okay.

[1002] And I have a condo that I own outright.

[1003] Good.

[1004] That you live in?

[1005] No, I do not.

[1006] I live in a home with my husband.

[1007] Oh.

[1008] What does your husband make, pray tell?

[1009] He makes over $100 ,000.

[1010] And I'm going to tell you, I listen to your He and I have always been separate.

[1011] Yeah, not anymore.

[1012] Now he's married to a woman that's got $28 ,000 in debt, and he's 68.

[1013] I thought you were a single 68 -year -old lady living on Social Security, and I was about to put you to work until I discovered you have a husband that has a $100 ,000 income.

[1014] And now I'm about to take some of his money to pay off his wife's debt, which is what he needs to do.

[1015] Tell Bubba to step up and take care of this.

[1016] And by the way, you need to cut up your credit card, sister.

[1017] chop them all up and never do that again.

[1018] But you guys are, you're together.

[1019] If he gets sick, you're going to take care of him.

[1020] And right now you're sick and he's going to take care of you.

[1021] And y 'all have been playing a house for a long, long time.

[1022] And now y 'all need to have a conversation about what the back 20 years is going to look like.

[1023] Yeah.

[1024] And that's going to be all working together financially, health -wise, marriage -wise, house -wise.

[1025] Y 'all got too much money.

[1026] You got an extra paid -for -house over here.

[1027] You've got too much stuff going around to be this broke.

[1028] And they're scared about it.

[1029] Yeah, unable to breathe because of Social Security.

[1030] The magic, listen, the plans are important.

[1031] The books are great.

[1032] Sometimes the magic is in that hard work or in that really hard conversation.

[1033] That's where you are.

[1034] Yeah.

[1035] You guys need to sit down and talk about this and he needs to help you pay it off.

[1036] Silly to sell a condo to pay off this when he makes that kind of money.

[1037] This is the Ramsey Show.

[1038] Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions.

[1039] It's the Ramsey Show.

[1040] where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

[1041] Ken Coleman, number one, bestselling author of the book, Paycheck to Purpose, host of the Ken Coleman Show, is my co -host today.

[1042] Thank you for joining us, America.

[1043] Open phones at AAA 825 -5 -2 -225.

[1044] Ken, long before there was a Ken Coleman, When I first started this broadcast a long, long time ago, it was called The Money Game.

[1045] Yes.

[1046] And back in those days, 30 years ago, we were on in Nashville only.

[1047] And a friend of mine that I had known from church put a book out helping people like you do in the career space, 48 days to the work you love.

[1048] His name's Dan Miller.

[1049] And Dan and his wife, Joanne, have been friends of Sharon's in mind for almost 40 years now.

[1050] And 48 days became a perennial bestseller, so millions of copies and helped millions of people in the same space that you're in with their career and selecting the right passion and all of those kinds of things.

[1051] Dan and I were in a Bible study with a bunch of high -performing guys.

[1052] We call it the Eagles group when we met every Wednesday morning for 14 years.

[1053] And that group disbanded it ran its course several years ago about a decade ago or so.

[1054] And Dan moved, he and Joanne moved to Florida, and he called me in December and told me he had a very aggressive cancer.

[1055] And he went home to be with Jesus last night about 9, 915.

[1056] And so lost a dear friend and a guy that's an icon in the space that you're in, for sure.

[1057] Yeah.

[1058] And has helped a lot of people in that career space.

[1059] So we'll honor him today and continue to cry and pray with his family.

[1060] And so just an incredible, incredible friend, incredible man. Great dad, great husband, too.

[1061] That's what people, sometimes behind the scenes, you don't know what people are.

[1062] And this guy is like the real dude.

[1063] Well, you know, I had the privilege of having dinner with a couple of guys that he has mentored.

[1064] And about my age.

[1065] And just the way they talked about him, of course, I got to know Dan was on his show.

[1066] And he interviewed Dan on my show as well.

[1067] And, you know, when you think about someone's legacy, it's the impact that they leave behind.

[1068] that has nothing to do with the public stuff, and he had a tremendous impact there, but just the way he has impacted people for decades, pouring into guys and a mastermind group, I got to talk to two of these guys, and they both teared up just talking about the impact that he had had on their lives.

[1069] Yep, absolutely.

[1070] Which is what it's all about.

[1071] Absolutely.

[1072] Quite a legacy.

[1073] Yeah.

[1074] Quite a legacy.

[1075] Great man. Quite a guy.

[1076] So our condolences to our friends there, and just take a second and honor the work that he had done is absolutely incredible.

[1077] All right, Billy is with us.

[1078] Billy is in Atlanta, Georgia.

[1079] Hi, Billy.

[1080] How are you?

[1081] Hello, Dave.

[1082] Hello, Ken. How are you guys?

[1083] Better than we deserve.

[1084] What's up?

[1085] Well, my wife and I want to make a new car purchase for the first time in over a decade, and I just want to make sure that it could be a pretty sizable car purchase.

[1086] I just want to make sure that this makes sense from your perspective.

[1087] We've been followers of years for quite some time now, and I would just like to get the Dave blessing if I can.

[1088] Well, it's not something that's required for a car, I can tell you that.

[1089] If you've been following us a long time, you know, that we don't buy new cars unless you have at least a million -dollar net worth.

[1090] Are you talking about new to you or a brand -new car?

[1091] It's a brand -new car, and the only reason why I'm calling in is because before I was about $10 ,000 underneath the millionaire status, and now as of this morning, I'm $3 ,909 over the millionaire status.

[1092] Just cross the finish line.

[1093] All right.

[1094] So you're ready to go on that one, all right?

[1095] And you probably also know, we tell folks, regardless of their level of wealth, not to buy things with wheels and motors all added together that equals more than half your annual income.

[1096] So what's your household income?

[1097] About half a million dollars.

[1098] Wow.

[1099] You're killing it.

[1100] What do you do for a living?

[1101] I'm a solutions architect at a technology company and my wife's tech sales executive at a startup.

[1102] Phenomenal.

[1103] Way to go, you guys.

[1104] Well, it sounds like you're going to be able to afford this car.

[1105] What is it?

[1106] What kind of car?

[1107] it's an electric SUV it's a rivian and i know you're a car guy so it goes zero to 60 and three seconds yeah i know the rivian yeah i was talking to a guy i bought one the other day i parked beside him at church and i parked my raptor beside him we were talking about as we're walking into church it was a great conversation is a lot of fun so um so it's a wonderful vehicle for i mean if you like the electric stuff everybody i mean they're just it's an incredible the engineering is very cool what is that thing about 90 grand 100 grand uh out the door with tax title license and everything 98 ,000.

[1108] Yeah, okay.

[1109] All right.

[1110] And I assume you've got the cash.

[1111] Yes, I just crossed 100 grand on the high -yield savings account, so I wanted to pay for everything, you know, the insurance for the whole year and everything as well.

[1112] So unless your wife is driving a $150 ,000 vehicle, your two vehicles would be under half your annual income and you're over a million dollars and you're paying cash.

[1113] That's the only thing we tell people to look at.

[1114] Awesome, Awesome.

[1115] Yeah, and we're driving right now, like a 10 -year -old Hyundai, and we're still going to keep it until it dies just for, like, memory's sake.

[1116] Yeah, yeah.

[1117] Yeah, I mean, it's, apparently the engineering on this thing is incredible.

[1118] I've not driven one of them.

[1119] The only thing I worry about with a brand -new manufacturer on anything is I end up owning a DeLorean or something, right?

[1120] Yeah.

[1121] You know, or Studebaker or something that goes out of business, you know, and then leave you, you know, they make them for three years and then they're gone.

[1122] I don't have any reason to think that this company is going to do that, but I'm just saying then just as a general comment, but can you afford this?

[1123] Yes, you can afford it, sir, and yes, you should go buy it if it's what you want.

[1124] Amazing.

[1125] Thank you, Dave.

[1126] I really appreciate it.

[1127] Very cool.

[1128] That's fun.

[1129] Very fun.

[1130] He walked through it.

[1131] I don't get to do that very often.

[1132] Most of the time I say don't buy the car.

[1133] Well, yeah.

[1134] Or sell the car.

[1135] Right.

[1136] Usually when they call saying, I need your blessing, it's because they feel like they're going to He'd do something stupid that's stupid.

[1137] Yeah, please save me. But this guy had walked right through it.

[1138] I'm with you.

[1139] I still wouldn't do it.

[1140] It's just a car taste.

[1141] I would do it.

[1142] I get a year old one or something like that because it is a new manufacturer.

[1143] But, you know, I guess it's coming with all the warranties and everything.

[1144] But it's brand new.

[1145] I see them driving all over the place.

[1146] Oh, yeah, they're great.

[1147] They got a dealership about a mile and a half from my house in downtown Franklin.

[1148] Okay.

[1149] So I see them.

[1150] They look cool.

[1151] I'm telling you, it's a BA car, man. It'll ride.

[1152] It'll go.

[1153] It's faster than it.

[1154] Zero to 60 and three seconds.

[1155] It's just, it makes a test.

[1156] A little look, yeah.

[1157] What's the, is it, is it a foreign manufacturer, I guess?

[1158] No, they're a U .S. It's a U .S. Okay, all right.

[1159] Didn't even know.

[1160] Yeah, it's crazy.

[1161] Ah, man, it's expensive, too.

[1162] It's good.

[1163] Hey, that's what, he's earned.

[1164] This is why you work for it.

[1165] That's right.

[1166] You live like no one else.

[1167] So later, you can live like no one else.

[1168] Freaking making a half million dollars a year, got a million dollar net worth, young guy.

[1169] Yeah.

[1170] But, and it's saved up the cash to do it.

[1171] Yeah.

[1172] And that's what he was.

[1173] And he's making a big leap up.

[1174] Big jump.

[1175] From a, from, I feel bad for the poor Hyundai.

[1176] for a hoopty.

[1177] The 10 -year -old Hyundai is going to feel bad when the new shiny vehicle shows up, but they're going to keep it.

[1178] I like it.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] So what's the thing on the Hyundai is all getting stolen?

[1181] Have you seen the TikTok thing?

[1182] No. You know, Dave, I'm not on TikTok.

[1183] I'm not either, but I heard it this morning.

[1184] I heard it this morning in a different setting that it's hard to have, that there's some kind of a...

[1185] This is true.

[1186] A guy in the audience is shaking his head.

[1187] It's hard to get insurance on them.

[1188] They're getting stolen because somebody put out a hack on how to get one started, how to break into it.

[1189] it.

[1190] And all these people are using that hack.

[1191] Oh, I see.

[1192] And they're stealing hundays.

[1193] Okay.

[1194] Like crazy.

[1195] So you Hyundai people, be careful out there.

[1196] Wow.

[1197] Wow.

[1198] Get the low jack.

[1199] Who knew?

[1200] Who knew?

[1201] This is the Ramsey show.

[1202] Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality is my co -host today.

[1203] Hey, folks, we want you to join us in Nashville for a brand new event that we just launch the ticket sales on.

[1204] It's called the Total Money Makeover Weekend.

[1205] It's going to be May 10 ,000.

[1206] It's going to be May 10, and 11th.

[1207] There's millions of you out there who have been listening for a while and are still sitting on the sidelines.

[1208] No more setting.

[1209] It's time to do it.

[1210] Time to take action.

[1211] In just one weekend, we're going to give you a crash course on everything we teach you about money, and you're going to hear brand new content in addition to that from the Ramsey personalities on budgeting, beating debt, investing, careers, and more.

[1212] No matter what baby step you're on, this event will light a fire under your butt and you'll make progress.

[1213] All the Ramsey personalities, including Ken Coleman and my right, will be part of this weekend, the total money makeover weekend.

[1214] It's going to be live question and answers all throughout the weekend, lots of opportunities for fun and pictures and everything else.

[1215] It is a total immersion.

[1216] So come join us, May 10 and 11.

[1217] Early bird tickets went on sale just a couple days ago at $99, and they are for a limited time.

[1218] We're going to up the prices as we go along.

[1219] So if you want the best prices, you do it now.

[1220] Get your tickets right now at ramsysolutions .com slash events.

[1221] The event center only holds 2 ,500 folks, so you do need to get your tickets as soon as possible, please, for your sake.

[1222] Cassandra is in Colorado Springs.

[1223] Hi, Cassandra.

[1224] How are you?

[1225] Hi, guys.

[1226] I'm good.

[1227] How are you guys?

[1228] Better than we deserve.

[1229] What's up?

[1230] So I'm curious about doing a HELOC to consolidate our debt to pay.

[1231] off quicker.

[1232] So we have about $55 ,000 that we are wanting to pay off, but what I was hoping to do was to do the he lock, so pull out the $55 ,000 and then do about a $400 payment a week.

[1233] So it would be either an automatic withdrawal or we do, well, automatic is easier.

[1234] So if we do the automatic withdrawal, and then I'm hoping it would be paid off in about three years.

[1235] Not at $18 ,000 a year, it won't be.

[1236] The interest is $18?

[1237] No, $400 a week is $1 ,600 a month.

[1238] That's $19 ,000 a year, times $3 is not $55.

[1239] It might get there.

[1240] You might get there, but it's going to be tough.

[1241] Yeah, you'll get there, I guess.

[1242] but okay so um so what kind of debt is this um we've got about uh just under 10 000 on a credit card and then the rest are auto loans no student loans and this is not including the house so what's your household income uh like after taxes take home it's about 7100 a month husband has two jobs and then i um also work work on commissions.

[1243] So I get bonuses.

[1244] And so whatever we get in those extra incomes go straight to debt, but I'm wanting it to go faster.

[1245] Going faster will be about you guys sacrificing and cutting deeper.

[1246] It won't be about interest.

[1247] Interest rate's not your problem when you have only a two -year or a three -year problem.

[1248] Your problem is just straight cash flow.

[1249] And you can increase that, of course, by increasing income or decreasing outgo, which is sacrifice.

[1250] The problem with moving this onto your home is you've now put your home at risk for your misbehavior.

[1251] And your misbehavior was you bought things you couldn't afford to buy.

[1252] Right.

[1253] And now recognizing that and changing that behavior.

[1254] Yeah, maybe.

[1255] 88 % of the people that do debt consolidation end up going further in debt, not less debt because they don't change the habits and the behavior.

[1256] I personally would tell you to never do it.

[1257] I would list these debts smallest to largest.

[1258] I'd cut up the credit cards.

[1259] I would sacrifice so deeply that people think you joined a cult.

[1260] I'd sell so much stuff the kids think they're next.

[1261] I would go crazy and get this done in about two years with your income and live on nothing, not going out to eat, not going on vacation, not looking for an easy way out, attacking this with an absolute freaking vengeance.

[1262] That's the formula that we have seen that has the most success.

[1263] Because here's the thing.

[1264] Debt is not the problem.

[1265] Debt is the symptom.

[1266] And interest rates when you run the actual math are not what's killing you here.

[1267] Especially when you pay those credit cards off really, really fast because they're going to be the smaller of these debts.

[1268] The cars are going to be the larger of the debts.

[1269] And so when you list these things smallest to largest, pay minimum.

[1270] on everything but the little one, attack the little one with a vengeance.

[1271] Credit cards are going to be the first thing out the door.

[1272] They're going to be gone.

[1273] And so now your interest rates are not going to be substantially different from that point forward between that and the helock, and you put your home at risk to buy a car, or in this case, to keep a car that you shouldn't have bought.

[1274] Yeah, the key that we have seen Cassandra in all these years, when Dave talks about, you've heard him talk about it over and over and over again, gazelle intensity.

[1275] The word there is urgency.

[1276] And here's what happens.

[1277] When you take the route of the HELOC, you remove all urgency.

[1278] In fact, the way you laid it out to us was so relaxed and we'll pay $400 a week and in three years we'll pay it off.

[1279] And that's where things go awry and Dave's right and the data backs him up.

[1280] So urgency is we don't rely on the HELOC.

[1281] We don't rely on a steady monthly payment to get out of this.

[1282] We get after it right now.

[1283] We sell a car if we've got some equity.

[1284] We drive a car that maybe we wouldn't choose to drive.

[1285] You know, we work two and three extra jobs.

[1286] We sacrifice like Dave talked about.

[1287] What's going on there is urgency.

[1288] And when your urgency is driving behavior, you're going to see faster results.

[1289] And you see permanent behavior change.

[1290] That's correct, because you don't ever want to do that again.

[1291] Yeah, you don't, you don't see that when you just ease into it.

[1292] That's right.

[1293] The HELOC's too easy.

[1294] Yeah.

[1295] I'm going to keep eating donuts, but I'm also going to start having a protein shake.

[1296] I'm going to walk five miles a day, but I'm not giving up the donuts.

[1297] That's right.

[1298] And six big max at lunch, yeah.

[1299] And so, yeah, that's, you know, that is the equivalent of what we're talking about.

[1300] It's right.

[1301] You, there is a thing.

[1302] So you asked, and so we're answering you fairly, and that is I wouldn't do it because when you lean into this with that urgency, with that level of sacrifice, you'll never go back.

[1303] It causes the behavior to permanently be changed.

[1304] because you never see it the same way again.

[1305] This is not a math problem.

[1306] It's a behavior problem.

[1307] And when you address it through that lens, it changes the answer dramatically here.

[1308] Never would I see.

[1309] You go out to eat and you put a steak on your credit card and then you put your credit card on your home.

[1310] You've now financed a steak on a he lock.

[1311] That's a great way of looking at it.

[1312] I mean, that's just when you think about it's just nuts.

[1313] All right.

[1314] Roger is in Tampa, Florida.

[1315] Hey, Roger, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[1316] How are you doing, Dave?

[1317] How are you doing, Dr. John?

[1318] Great.

[1319] Ken's with me this hour.

[1320] What's up?

[1321] Oh, sorry about that.

[1322] That's okay.

[1323] All good.

[1324] Ken likes to be called doctor, but it's just not accurate.

[1325] I've never been called doctor ever, so I'm going to take it.

[1326] Cool.

[1327] Well, all right, my question is, you know, I've worked in the wedding industry doing music for weddings for almost 18 years now.

[1328] And in 2022, I was making about, you know, $80 ,000 a year.

[1329] Halfway through 2022, I decided to go into business for myself.

[1330] Last year, 2023, I did really well and took in about almost $250 ,000, where's my income up.

[1331] In the same thing?

[1332] Doing the same thing?

[1333] In the same thing.

[1334] Wow.

[1335] Yeah.

[1336] Good for you.

[1337] Thank you.

[1338] So, you know, we spent the last year.

[1339] We paid off our credit cards.

[1340] We don't have any car loans or anything.

[1341] But we do have two loans that are kind of hanging over my head.

[1342] And I'm a little overwhelmed just trying to figure out how to manage the money.

[1343] We have, my wife has about $120 ,000 in student debt.

[1344] And I, years ago made a bad decision, took out an SBA loan, small business association loan.

[1345] And it's about $100 ,000 that I took.

[1346] out.

[1347] So you got $220 ,000 to pay off and you made $250 last year?

[1348] Correct.

[1349] Dude.

[1350] You used to make $80.

[1351] Yeah.

[1352] Live on your old income and you're debt free in two years.

[1353] Yes.

[1354] Okay.

[1355] So my, well, the question I have to you is, you know, because the business has really grown pretty quickly, almost, almost quick, quicker than I, a lot quicker than I expected.

[1356] So I'm like facing these issues where, not issues, but I need to, I'm, I'm, I'm looking at future jobs and realizing that I need to purchase.

[1357] No, you don't need to purchase anything else.

[1358] You need to keep making $250 ,000 and pay off $220 ,000 in debt.

[1359] You don't need to be buying anything right now.

[1360] You can clean up your mess first.

[1361] Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co -host today.

[1362] One of our other fellow Ramsey personalities is in the middle of book launch week.

[1363] Tomorrow will be one week that the book has been out, Breaking Free from Broke by George Camel, the ultimate guide to more money and less stress.

[1364] It is fun and packed with research, and you will never look at some of the villains in the marketplace the same again.

[1365] He exposes everyone that is ripping you off.

[1366] Breaking Free from Broke, you will love the read.

[1367] It's a lot of fun to read.

[1368] A lot of people hadn't read a book in five years of reading it.

[1369] That's a good indicator.

[1370] That's a good book.

[1371] George Camel, check it out.

[1372] You can get it at Ramsey.

[1373] ramsysolutions .com or anywhere great books are sold lexie is in st paul minnesota hi lexie welcome to the ramsay show hi thank you so much for having me how are you guys today better than we deserve what's up hi um i just wanted your advice on um some career uh trajectories um i just gave some background i'm a recent uh law student graduate um i chose my law school because i got a full so I'm out debt -free.

[1374] Great.

[1375] Good for you.

[1376] And thank you.

[1377] And I took a job with my state's government as a civil litigator where I currently make $80 ,000 a year.

[1378] And I love this job because I get the mentorship of a corporate law firm, but I get to do work that is meaningful to me. And I get to volunteer 15 hours a week.

[1379] What is the work that you're doing that's meaningful?

[1380] I get to help protect people in my state from bad actors.

[1381] Protect who?

[1382] Residents of my state.

[1383] Residents of your state.

[1384] So who are the bad actors?

[1385] Give us an example of who you're protecting them from.

[1386] So, I mean, if there's someone who isn't paying fair wages to their employees or there's harassment in the workplace, I get to help step in and make sure.

[1387] that that isn't happening to my fellow Vitsyn.

[1388] Is that a form of...

[1389] Are you working for the Attorney General?

[1390] Yeah.

[1391] Are you working for the Attorney General?

[1392] Yes, sir.

[1393] Okay.

[1394] All right.

[1395] I'm trying to make sure we go.

[1396] That makes sense, then.

[1397] Cool.

[1398] Yeah.

[1399] And I love the work.

[1400] I get a lot of really great mentorship.

[1401] I get to go into court three to four days a week, which a lot of my classmates who went into Big Law.

[1402] I mean, they're in cubicles.

[1403] I don't...

[1404] Right.

[1405] They're not going to make.

[1406] experience I am.

[1407] And I get to volunteer, right?

[1408] I run a housing clinic through a legal aid.

[1409] I get to volunteer 15 hours a week.

[1410] But I chose my law school because I would come out debt -free, and I went into it after spending three years working for illegal aid, and that's really where my heart is.

[1411] That's where I want to give back to.

[1412] And I'm wondering if I should suck it up and go into a corporate law firm where I'd make an additional $100 ,000 a year easily, pay off my house and, you know, be able to really give myself to legal aid without any financial burden or if I should go straight to legal aid work and, you know, potentially burn out because it's a lower paid position and, you know, option A. Option A. Now, this is me. I'm going to answer it is what would I do if I were in your shoes with everything you've given me?

[1413] you love the work that you do, you love the result of that work, and you want to volunteer and legal aid is close to your heart, but the reality is that if you go into a legal aid position, you are probably going to burn out, your income is going to be absolutely capped, and I don't know that you're making more of a difference working in that type of a situation, 40 hours a week, 50 hours a week, as you would, going to work for a great law firm with no cap essentially or certainly raise the cap tremendously on your income ability and then give back with your time that way.

[1414] The more money you make and the more money you keep, Lexi, always leads to more freedom, more options with what you want to do with your time.

[1415] You can give back financially and you can give back with your time in both positions.

[1416] And I think you've got to create more income and more freedom for you to be able to have more impact.

[1417] Now, I'm not going to say that you wouldn't make great impact.

[1418] It wouldn't be fulfilled.

[1419] But I'm telling you what I would do.

[1420] I'd choose both.

[1421] Income and impact, Dave, is what I would choose.

[1422] Because you can still volunteer.

[1423] The good news is there's almost an infinite number of answers to your question.

[1424] There's a lot of different ways you can use the law to accomplish your goal.

[1425] And I don't think it's necessarily, you know, all in on legal aid.

[1426] versus all in on big law and I lose my soul but I make a lot of money so I can come back and find my soul again you know that kind of thing I don't I don't think you have to go one direction or the other there you're in a mid level you're in a mid middle decision where you are where you're getting to do some of the legal aid work and like you said you're getting great mentorship you're in court every day so for a season staying where you are might not be bad um then a third option pops into my head because I'm entrepreneurial I wonder what kind of of boutique law firm you could own and operate after you've got a little bit more experience under your belt that would allow you to make a couple of hundred thousand and still have a lot of room for pro bono and you select the type of legal aid you want to provide as a part of the business model of running your own firm at some point where you made serious money off of good people that you want to help and you also have have the margin to do the other stuff too So there's a lot of different ways to get at this.

[1427] I just, I don't, I always resist the idea that the only way you can do something noble and fulfilling is to be broke.

[1428] That's why the contrary is true.

[1429] You can do a lot of noble and fulfilling things and, you know, the people that you're helping will help you to help others in the process.

[1430] and so I, you know, I don't mind where you are for a period of time.

[1431] It's scratching a whole lot of your itches right now.

[1432] Yeah.

[1433] And just say, okay, this is my, this is my internship.

[1434] This is my apprenticeship.

[1435] And I'm going to do this for three years or I'm going to do this for four years.

[1436] And then I'm going to take that and go open a boutique firm, make serious money on part of my clients and pro bono the rest of them.

[1437] and still scratch a lot of that edge.

[1438] I don't think you have to necessarily build up a pile of wealth and then work for nothing at legal aid to have done good in society or done good in society the way you're defining it even.

[1439] So I just, you've done, and I love that you did this debt -free.

[1440] That's pretty sticking.

[1441] Remember, you and I were talking about this recently that most young people don't realize the amount of law schools that are in this country because they think, well, I've got to go to the big -name law school, you know, Ivy League or a Vanderbilt in our neck of the woods, but there are law schools in every state that if you have the right GPA and the LSAT scored, they will give you a full ride.

[1442] Lexi's an example of this.

[1443] And I want to applaud her too, Dave, because here's a young lady who's come out and she's getting courtroom experience, which is incredibly valuable.

[1444] She's right.

[1445] Her colleagues are sitting in the cube.

[1446] They're waiting for their chance to get in court.

[1447] She's in there every day on the battlefield.

[1448] I like my option plus Dave's option.

[1449] I thought both are those are sound ideas for you.

[1450] You can give back, but you can move up at the same time.

[1451] They're not separate choices, as Dave said.

[1452] That's a false narrative.

[1453] And you don't need to feel bad.

[1454] I didn't like how she said, and I have to suck it up and go to the big law firm.

[1455] I wouldn't look at it that way.

[1456] And I would look at it as if I don't like the big law firm, that's one thing.

[1457] But moving up doesn't mean that I am somehow not being authentic to who I am and wanting to use the law for good.

[1458] Yeah, she just doesn't want to, she didn't like that environment.

[1459] I get that.

[1460] And I don't blame her for that.

[1461] I agree.

[1462] I don't blame her for that.

[1463] She's a warrior.

[1464] Basically, they ride you like a horse, man. I mean, it's like nuts.

[1465] So, yeah, I don't, I don't argue that part of it.

[1466] But, you know, there's a lot of ways to get at helping folks with, you know, with the law.

[1467] And there's a lot of, a lot of angles on that that you can do.

[1468] that are not in any way of sellout.

[1469] So good question.

[1470] Good question.

[1471] You're amazing young lady.

[1472] Thank you for calling in.

[1473] This is the Ramsey Show.

[1474] Power Scripture of the day, Luke 1428, suppose one of you wants to build a tower.

[1475] Won't you sit down first and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?

[1476] Dan Miller that we referenced at the top of the hour said success is never an accident.

[1477] It typically starts as imagination.

[1478] comes a dream, stimulates a goal, grows into a plan of action, which then inevitably meets with opportunity.

[1479] Don't get stuck along the way.

[1480] That's good.

[1481] Really good.

[1482] Open phones at AAA 825 -5 -225.

[1483] Morgan is in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

[1484] Hey, Morgan, how are you?

[1485] I'm doing great.

[1486] How are you?

[1487] Better than we deserve.

[1488] What's up?

[1489] Yeah, my husband and I have been married for about two and a half years, and we have no debt.

[1490] we would love to buy a house, invest more into retirement, and grow our wealth, but with the budget we have, there seems to be no extra room, even though we're living on as minimum as we can.

[1491] So what advice do you guys have for growing wealth on a small budget or maybe maximizing that wealth?

[1492] Well, either you're not living on as little as you can, or you don't make much money, which is it?

[1493] I think if we don't make much money, what's your household income?

[1494] About $50 ,000.

[1495] Okay.

[1496] Yeah, you're below -out.

[1497] average.

[1498] I don't mean that in a negative way.

[1499] I'm just saying the average of 72 ,000 nationally.

[1500] What do you each do?

[1501] My husband is an audiovisual technician, and I currently don't work.

[1502] I'm a full -time student.

[1503] We have a baby.

[1504] Full -time student.

[1505] When will you be done?

[1506] In about six months.

[1507] And what do you plan to do?

[1508] I don't really plan to work.

[1509] I probably plan to stay home with the kids and eventually homeschool my kids.

[1510] Why did you get a degree?

[1511] I'm not paying for it, so it was kind of presented to me as a way to get I got I started school before I got married and was maybe going to use it then and now I am married for a few years with kids what's your degree in Christian ministries okay um well I mean there's only two sides to the equation the income and the outgo and so if you all want to address your income side then you're going to have more margin it's that simple you'll have more you'll have more wiggle room in this budget um If you said you got two kids?

[1512] One kid.

[1513] One kid.

[1514] Okay.

[1515] And you guys are what, 25?

[1516] I'm 21.

[1517] My husband's 26.

[1518] Okay.

[1519] All right.

[1520] And so, I mean, you do not have a lot of room in a $50 ,000 budget.

[1521] That would make sense in Ann Arbor Michigan.

[1522] I mean, it's not like you're some kind of crazy spender.

[1523] Like you're going to, you know, out on the town buying $300 dinners every night.

[1524] I know you're not.

[1525] You don't have room in that budget to do that.

[1526] You've done a good job staying.

[1527] within that budget, not getting into debt, way to go.

[1528] Good job.

[1529] But I think what you've got to do is I remember a guy teaching one time I was in a conference on leadership and business and he said the problem with hitting goals is not what you're willing to do to get there.

[1530] It's what you're willing to give up to get there.

[1531] And giving up in your all's case might be if we want to have a house, we're going to have to give up some time and be working.

[1532] If we want to build some wealth, we're going to have to trade some time for that.

[1533] And so at 21 with a baby, you've got this stay -at -home mom homeschooling thing, dream dialed in, which is nothing wrong with at all.

[1534] My wife stayed at home with our children.

[1535] But you have to, on the other side of the equation, then, go make some stinking money.

[1536] And if you're going to be doing that, he's going to be working more and or differently.

[1537] What's a number?

[1538] Do you guys have an idea in your head how much more per month would make a real difference for you, realistically?

[1539] I mean, probably $500 to $1 ,000, because that's $500 to $1 ,000 to $1 ,000.

[1540] So, okay, here's why I ask that question.

[1541] It's really important to get that number in your head and you two sit down and go, okay, what do we have to do to come up with an additional $1 ,000?

[1542] Could you find some of that in the budget?

[1543] It's possible.

[1544] I don't think you have a lot of fat.

[1545] So now it's how do I make $1 ,000?

[1546] how does he make a thousand you know can we do it collectively could you make a thousand even being home with the one baby could he make a thousand you can you can rack that up pretty quickly and now all of a sudden you've got two thousand dollars but you've got to reverse engineer your activity to go all right this is what has to be true for us to be able to make an additional $1 ,000 and if you go above and beyond that that's fine but that's when you get some laser focus and now you've got that margin yeah I'm going to send you a copy of Ken's book from paycheck to purpose for your husband.

[1547] And you can read too, of course.

[1548] But what I'm thinking about for him is I think this is just a job he fell into.

[1549] Like he ran sound over at the church and some buddies that were in the sound business had come work for us.

[1550] Now he runs sound.

[1551] And, you know, he's 26.

[1552] So you start asking yourself the question, what am I doing when I'm 36 that I'm making 100 ,000?

[1553] It's at a 50.

[1554] That's right.

[1555] And do I own the sound company?

[1556] Do I have a completely different career direction?

[1557] Do I take a class or two to make myself more valuable?

[1558] But if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, that's the definition of insanity.

[1559] So change something.

[1560] And from paycheck to purpose helps lead him through a really clear path to do that.

[1561] Yeah, it'll go from ideation in stage one all the way to realization of that, as Dave is talking about, 10 -year, 20 -year, 30 -year plan, and he's got some skill set.

[1562] He's got some experience.

[1563] He can freelance with that skill set, but he needs to be raising the bar as to what he can make in the now, but with an eye on the next.

[1564] That's how you guys get to real financial independence and then the ability to do whatever you want to, fund those dreams.

[1565] Very good.

[1566] Excellent stuff.

[1567] All right.

[1568] Nick is with us in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

[1569] Hi, Nick.

[1570] What's up?

[1571] Hey, thanks for taking my call, gentlemen.

[1572] How are you guys doing?

[1573] Better than we deserve.

[1574] How can we help, sir?

[1575] Excellent.

[1576] So here's my question.

[1577] My wife and I are new to the Ramsey program.

[1578] We, you know, we have significant savings already built up.

[1579] We do have some consumer debt that I think we can manage rather quickly.

[1580] What is the question is?

[1581] How much significant savings?

[1582] About 18 ,000.

[1583] And that's not in retirement.

[1584] no no no how much how much debt do you have so i have a couple car loans in a in a credit card so 18000 for my wife's car seven on my daughter's car and a credit card um that uh that we have on the remainder uh okay so how can we help well so my question is um you know my wife and i are Once we take care of this consumer debt and we start to tackle our mortgage, we sort of have a disagreement.

[1585] I contribute roughly 35 % of my income to retirement, and the question is, should I reduce that and take that extra money and contribute it towards our mortgage in addition to any additional funds?

[1586] Gotcha.

[1587] Well, Nick, what we teach is this idea of total.

[1588] focus because your most powerful wealth building tools, your income.

[1589] If you didn't have any payments right now except your house, you'd have a lot of wiggle room in this budget.

[1590] And so you've been trying to do three things at once, and you ended up financing your car because you're over -investing in your 401k, so you didn't have the money to buy a car.

[1591] And so in a sense, you borrowed on your car to put money in your 401k.

[1592] Mathematically, that's what's occurred.

[1593] So, Yeah, temporarily, I would stop putting any money in, not reduce it.

[1594] I'd reduce it to zero temporarily.

[1595] Temporarily, I'd not go out to eat, not go on vacation.

[1596] I'd be on a tight budget, scorched earth.

[1597] You and your wife sit down, make every penny scream.

[1598] And then I would take every dollar of that 18 except $1 ,000, and I would throw it at your smallest debts, list your debts smallest to largest, and pay them off in that order.

[1599] So those cards and that daughter's car are gone.

[1600] The debt's gone.

[1601] We're going to put a big chunk on your wife's, and then we're going to attack your wife's really, really quickly and get it finished up.

[1602] Now you got no payments but a house payment.

[1603] That feels good.

[1604] Although it didn't feel good to stop that 401k for a minute, but it was just for a hot minute.

[1605] Now we're going to build an emergency fund back of three to six months of expenses, put that savings back, and then you got your rainy day fund, and then you restart your 401k.

[1606] The problem is you try to do everything at once, so you're doing nothing.

[1607] And that's the order of attack.

[1608] Hang on.

[1609] I'll send you a copy of the book of the Total Money Makeover to help you do it.

[1610] Ken Coleman, good show today.

[1611] sir.

[1612] That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books.

[1613] We'll be back with you before you know it.

[1614] In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace.

[1615] Christ Jesus.

[1616] Hey folks, Dave here.

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