Wendy Mogel

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.

[1] I'm Dan Rather.

[2] I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[3] Hello.

[4] Old Friend is back.

[5] One of our very first guest.

[6] Our first expert.

[7] First expert ever.

[8] First expert ever.

[9] Dr. Wendy Mogel.

[10] She's our favorite childhood psychologist.

[11] She is so much so that we did a whole show with her.

[12] Yes.

[13] We have one season of it, Nurture versus Nurture.

[14] And now we have the second season out now.

[15] that everyone should check out.

[16] Please go to Nurture versus Nurture and subscribe.

[17] We'll have one episode in our main feed, but then we'll go over to its own feed.

[18] So we encourage everyone to listen to that.

[19] Of course, Dr. Wendy Moggle is a clinical psychologist, a best -selling author, and podcast hosts.

[20] Her books are wildly popular and wonderful voice lessons for parents, the blessing of a skin knee, and the blessing of a B -minus.

[21] She's a beast.

[22] She's a beast.

[23] You're going to be repeating tidbits that she dropped.

[24] upon us the whole episode.

[25] Yeah, we've been doing it ever since we've recorded with her.

[26] And just a reminder, it's back to school time.

[27] So it's a really good time to jump into nurture versus nurture.

[28] Yes.

[29] And listen to all the problems that other parents are dealing with.

[30] That you're probably dealing with too.

[31] Yes, absolutely.

[32] You're undoubtedly dealing with.

[33] Please enjoy Dr. Wendy Mogul.

[34] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[35] Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[36] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[37] He's an object for.

[38] Testing the sound.

[39] Sounds lovely.

[40] Sound puckery to me. Puckery.

[41] Puckery.

[42] The pops.

[43] The plosives, as he'd say.

[44] Wait, is that a word?

[45] Yeah.

[46] Plosive?

[47] An abbreviated version of explosion?

[48] No. What is plosive?

[49] Words that pop like that.

[50] Oh, my God.

[51] Gosh, you guys are virtually linguists.

[52] We are.

[53] Well, Wendy is a hundred percent one.

[54] Wendy, we had a really awesome linguist on recently.

[55] So we had Valerie Friedland on.

[56] We've had a couple of episodes recently where I was like, boy, I hope there's enough stuff here for a whole episode.

[57] Also, we had an owl expert on.

[58] And I thought, I hope this is interesting.

[59] And it turned out to be very interesting, luckily.

[60] But this linguist, who I was like, I don't know, how long can we talk about like and literally?

[61] And it was one of the best episodes of the year, her passion for it and her.

[62] Knowledge.

[63] of knowledge of where every word started and how it's evolved and changed and flipped meanings and all this stuff.

[64] I kind of believe how interested I was in it.

[65] And most people were.

[66] It was really cool.

[67] So both words and owls are really important right now.

[68] Oh.

[69] Because.

[70] No, they are.

[71] Because we all have to be writers now.

[72] Because so much of our communication is via text.

[73] And so our lexicon needs to be flexible, deep, rich, socially appropriate more than ever because it's also permanent anything you put in a text or put in an email.

[74] Owls are really important because as we grieve the planet and start to get do me and frantic and just future trip in a dark way, there is so much in the press about birds.

[75] New York Times had identified these bird calls the other day.

[76] I looked it up.

[77] Burning groups near where I live, there are 50 of them.

[78] Whoa.

[79] I think that burning has emerged as an antidote.

[80] It's also calming.

[81] I mean, we talked about this a little bit with the woman who spoke on birds.

[82] It's the opposite of going to a concert.

[83] It's very low, level, relaxing, because she was saying, One of her friends is an ER doc, and then we'll come home and just birdwatch because it brings her back down.

[84] It's all pretty chaotic out there right now.

[85] And I asked her if she had to sum up what bird people were, because my hunch was that they're people that are very, very sensitive to stimulation, that it can feel overwhelming quite easily.

[86] And then perhaps have a really high level of, I said it wrong in the interview, it turns out.

[87] You say MAA.

[88] Okay, it's M -O -A.

[89] Mono -Moxidase.

[90] Thank you.

[91] that kind of creates brain activity.

[92] If you're low on it, you crave right stimulus.

[93] And if you have a ton of it, you can watch the grass grow.

[94] So they said in my psychology class.

[95] I asked, do you think it kind of trends that way?

[96] And she thought very much so that her friends are pretty sensitive to stimulation, and she is.

[97] So I think we've all been stimulation fatigued, no?

[98] I think there are two signs.

[99] So one is the Taylor Swift Erez tour and the Barbie movie and the dead -in company that we are so eager for collective effervescence and joy together, loud noises, created community of shared interests, and then looking at one bird.

[100] Okay, so I think it's worth mentioning, and probably in the intro, I'll say this, but the fact that you are our very first experts on expert, I'm delighted by that.

[101] Me too.

[102] I hope in some weird way, that's a feather in your cap.

[103] Oh, for sure.

[104] Because had it not gone well, we might have thought, well, we really don't know how to talk to experts, and we should scrap this idea entirely.

[105] But we both loved you so much.

[106] Yes.

[107] And we're so taken with everything you said that, of course, then we approached you about doing a show with us, which you then did.

[108] And we love and are so proud of how it turned out.

[109] And it's called nurture versus nurture.

[110] For folks who haven't listened to the first season, it's so incredible.

[111] I guess I will compare it to Esther Porell's podcast where you hear real couples counseling.

[112] This is very similar in that you, Wendy, will have two guests on, or one guest, a single parent or a pair of parents, and they will bring to you some problem they're having with raising their children or other concerns.

[113] And then we get to hear virtually real -time counseling.

[114] And it's so pleasing on so many levels.

[115] A, your message is always so comforting From blessing of a skin knee to blessing of a B minus It's so reassuring It's such a great call to calm down, relax and trust That everything will turn out all right So the message is always just so wonderful But also hearing you with such levity and grace Walk the two people through all these problems There is a voyeuristic element of it that I love.

[116] It almost reminds me of going to meetings where you get to hear people just openly talk about their problems and you're not involved in it.

[117] So you're not defensive.

[118] You can just listen and then you can see yourself in all these people because no one's aiming the light at you.

[119] I find it to be very cathartic listening to the episodes.

[120] So thank you and welcome back.

[121] Thank you.

[122] I'm so happy to be here.

[123] These parents that were on the show taught me so much and they were such a pleasure to be with because these are people that I would not have had in my practice.

[124] They wouldn't have found their way to me. They were around the country or around the world.

[125] To have the privilege of talking to them and learning from them every time and laughing at them and having them laugh at me was a lot of fun.

[126] Well, let's just say you were set up here in Los Angeles and in a pretty nice area of Los Angeles.

[127] So there was probably a pretty consistent, at least socioeconomic, bracket that your patients were coming to you from.

[128] Did you have any anxiety that you would maybe lack the skills to connect with people from such varied backgrounds?

[129] Zero.

[130] I have given, I think, 600 lectures around the country and around the world.

[131] And the people I enjoy talking to the most besides the parents who are great at the schools, at the conference, at the gatherings, is talking to the people who drive me around, getting a blow dry in a local salon and talking to the hairdress.

[132] Talking to people I meet on the street, and I talk to everyone compulsively, because I have this manic curiosity about families.

[133] That's where you're questioning generally will take you when you're meeting strangers?

[134] It will.

[135] I was in Texas not too long ago with a member of, what's the most competitive military branch?

[136] Maybe seals?

[137] Black hawks.

[138] Yeah, Black Hawk.

[139] That's not a thing.

[140] Hold on, I think it is a thing.

[141] What?

[142] No, no, no, no. What is it?

[143] Listen, you got Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines.

[144] Marines are part of the Navy.

[145] Navy also has Navy SEALs.

[146] You have special forces.

[147] Special forces.

[148] There we go.

[149] That's what he was.

[150] But they call special force operations sometimes black ops.

[151] Oh, that's where we got that part.

[152] Black Hawks.

[153] I think I must have always heard it as Black Hawk.

[154] And we were talking about birds, so who knows?

[155] Oh, my God.

[156] It's hard to parse out why we said Blackhawks.

[157] Also, Robbie Rob's NHL team, Chicago Blackhawks.

[158] Oh.

[159] Everyone got serviced by the Blackhawks wonder.

[160] All right.

[161] Wow.

[162] Everyone won.

[163] He told me how many times he had jumped out of planes that were way up high in the sky into enemy territory.

[164] And he told me about his voting practices.

[165] And my attitude is just.

[166] curiosity.

[167] And I feel so honored and privileged to gain the trust of people who are so very different than this narrow population, you're exactly right, that I saw in my practice in Los Angeles.

[168] So wherever I am in the world, I just start talking to people and they tell me about their lives and their relationships and their children.

[169] And that's my oxygen.

[170] I'm very happy.

[171] The field that you specialized in is a very, very unifying field in that all, I can't say all.

[172] You can never say all.

[173] All the parents I've ever met have a nice baseline fear about their children, that they'll be healthy, that they'll be safe, that they'll turn out and find some kind of employment or get engaged in something they're passionate about.

[174] We all want the best for our kids.

[175] We probably want the best for our parents.

[176] Brothers and sisters, I don't know.

[177] Kind of the worst.

[178] You can root against the man for them simultaneously.

[179] But of all the topics you could bring up, I do think there's something quite unifying about parents.

[180] I know that when we go to the sand dunes with my family, everyone there's got a Trump flag or a let's go Brandon.

[181] Clearly politically we're opposite.

[182] But I'm looking around and they got their little kids that are the same age as mine.

[183] I go, it took a lot of effort to get out here.

[184] You did that so these little kids would have these memories.

[185] That's obviously much more important to me than all the other stuff.

[186] And I find it to just be very bonding.

[187] This is what I talk to parents about all the time, making memories.

[188] And the way you make memories that get embedded in the amygdala and the hippocampus, so we're going for memory and emotion, is with movement, often outdoors, because it's all five senses in three dimensions.

[189] And, Dax, I know you do this with the girls.

[190] Movement, nature, with parents, and the parents are having a good time.

[191] too.

[192] This is a more and more scarce commodity.

[193] Well, getting the kids just away from screens to begin with is hard enough.

[194] And the parents.

[195] And the parents, you're right.

[196] I was talking to a family this week, so I still have a busy practice, but the same kind of people that I've always seen.

[197] And we were talking about the sound environment in the house.

[198] If kids hear parents talking in an urgent or frantic way on the phone as they move through the living space of the family.

[199] It's frustrating to the brain because we want to complete the gestalt.

[200] So hearing a whole conversation, both sides of it, is more satisfying than one side.

[201] And it's similar to parents looking at their phones because you don't know what they're looking at when they look at a screen.

[202] Are they looking at a very important email for work and that email's going to mean that the mortgage or the rent gets paid or are they looking at pornography?

[203] You just don't know.

[204] Yeah, it's unsettling.

[205] Well, if you're my kid, you come right over and look right at my phone while I'm looking at it.

[206] So what happens when they do that?

[207] I don't know.

[208] I guess I get that feeling of someone reading over my shoulder.

[209] That's something great for me to think about is they are naturally curious, like what on earth has captivated my attention?

[210] That is exactly right.

[211] So I now have two grandsons.

[212] Yes.

[213] And I don't think I realized this when I was raising my children because you're just too busy and crazy and happy and miserable and it's just a tangle of plans and lack of sleep.

[214] But with grandchildren, you see they are primates, they're animals, they are wildly curious and they want to work and solve problems.

[215] And because they're twins, I get to see the difference in temperament.

[216] Are they identical they are fraternal okay they are 11 months old and one of them now loves to open and close the refrigerator door and think about it when we talk about all five senses so it's not that easy it's work he wishes to work it's satisfying when it opens there's a rush of cold air there are all those bottles and jars and boxes inside it and colors they want novelty they want curiosity and challenge.

[217] Yeah.

[218] And if they don't have it, that's when they get fussy and peckish and have a hard time.

[219] And it just got so clear to me watching them.

[220] I had a very similar experience.

[221] We were on vacation and it's us and another family.

[222] So we got four little girls.

[223] We get to the beach and then we meet up with another family that Kristen's been friends with since college.

[224] And when they arrive, there are a shitload of boys, right?

[225] Age range, please.

[226] They're varying probably from three years old till 10 years old.

[227] These boys arrived at the beach and within six seconds they found all this drift wood in lumber and one kid was stabbing the ground and trying to build something.

[228] Then the other kids were carrying these logs.

[229] Again, not to reinforce any kind of gender stereotypes but fucking hey, it was right in front of my face.

[230] These little boys had to get that lumber and they had to do all this stuff.

[231] And I was just watching, to your point, I'm like, yeah, we're little monkeys.

[232] The little women monkeys are over there doing the thing that they do.

[233] What were they doing?

[234] Were they talking the girls?

[235] Oh, they're talking up a storm.

[236] And what else were they doing?

[237] They were also making some sand castles and digging some things.

[238] And Delta had some stuffies and toys involved.

[239] And yeah, they were like being social and communicating.

[240] And they were a group.

[241] And these little boys, like they had been given the orders like, go find every piece of wood.

[242] There's no coordination.

[243] Who knows what they were building.

[244] But I just couldn't believe how quickly they got on this task.

[245] You couldn't not notice it.

[246] My heart is breaking for boys right now.

[247] And I think it's because I have these two.

[248] I have two daughters.

[249] And when I see these tiny little men, how enthusiastic they are about life.

[250] And male infants are more sensitive organisms than female infants.

[251] And then what we do over time is teach them not to express too many emotions, not to be vulnerable, to make sure you project an image of toughness and strength.

[252] But running around the beach and picking up the sticks.

[253] So the little grandsons live on a little ranch.

[254] They are spending a lot of time eating dirt, eating rocks, and collecting sticks.

[255] My younger daughter arrived there the day before yesterday, and she said they were just covered with scratches.

[256] And when we send them to school and expect them to sit with their little bottoms in the chair and figure out how to please the teacher the way the girls.

[257] And again, this is a wild gender stereotype and I never wanted applied to children where it doesn't fit.

[258] Right.

[259] There's definitely exceptions to all these.

[260] Big exceptions.

[261] And we know more about that every day.

[262] And we are more respectful of it.

[263] The schools, not necessarily, but certainly evolved parents.

[264] But to apply the same standards to the boys who wanted to run around on the beach and gather all those sticks.

[265] And I love the way you described it, that they didn't necessarily have a plan.

[266] And the girls already had this architecture just out of the sand and the stuffies and the relationship among the stuffies.

[267] And they were all together, I imagine, in a much smaller circumference than the boys were running around the beach.

[268] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[269] They were invading the beach, the boys.

[270] I think that all the time.

[271] And again, you can only be so sympathetic to the patriarchy.

[272] I understand that.

[273] But I do feel like what we were designed to do versus the modern world we live in for boys particularly is uniquely disjointed.

[274] I think all the skills that would have made us thrive as hunting and gathering humanoids were so far from that.

[275] We don't need anyone to go out and fight the lion or hunt the deer.

[276] There's very little application for the skill set that comes quite intrinsically to boys.

[277] And so, yeah, I worry about.

[278] about them too, and we have all the data.

[279] They're getting outpaced in college now.

[280] They can't find dates.

[281] They're not having sex.

[282] It's a very bleak and dismal prognosis for boys currently.

[283] I think that's okay for us to be worried about them.

[284] We have to be worried about them.

[285] They're half of our population.

[286] Fewer and fewer, the older that moms are.

[287] Yep.

[288] You know about this from your incredible show.

[289] The likelihood of having girls and girls twins.

[290] Oh, as you get older, you're more likely to have a female offspring?

[291] Yes.

[292] Oh, I didn't know that.

[293] Yes.

[294] Wow, my friendship circle is inordinately female, the children in it, and the youngest couple in our group had two boys.

[295] Erica and Charlie, they were so young.

[296] Yeah, I mean, Kristen was young.

[297] She was 33?

[298] That's the new young.

[299] But 33, evolutionarily, is like, you've already been having kids for 15 years.

[300] Well, my friend just had a boy, and she's my age.

[301] Well, again, it's not like there's exceptions, right?

[302] This is all anecdotal.

[303] Yes, of course, of course, yes.

[304] The overall trend is more girls than when we develop standards of decorum of academic performance, how you behave socially, how you behave in school, how you speak to your parents.

[305] And I add to this that there is no worse relationship than 15 -year -old girls than their mothers.

[306] That's the worst.

[307] That's the worst.

[308] is and it gets much better and it was good before that and moms do tend to love their little sons because before they enter puberty they're kind of the best boyfriends they ever had they look a lot like the dad but with more hair and no paunch and they adore their mom that's right they're nice to them she's the greatest and by the time the girls are four they're already little They have a lot of very strong opinions, and they're very forthright and very articulate, and the boys can barely talk and more.

[309] Yeah, they got to gather them sticks.

[310] Who else will gather them?

[311] They have to gather these sticks.

[312] Why waste your time in that dumb conversation?

[313] Talking's not going to get these sticks gathered.

[314] Picking them up is what's going to get them gathered.

[315] And when you're out hunting, you're not supposed to be talking, you scare everything away.

[316] That's right.

[317] You've got to be quiet.

[318] You've got to not look at each other.

[319] It's embarrassing to look at each other, and there are so much more interesting things to look at that are not the people right next to you.

[320] But then the boys are entering puberty, younger, as are the girls.

[321] Interesting.

[322] One of the first signs of boys entering puberty is that their testicles get larger, and a parent doesn't notice that.

[323] Boys don't notice that.

[324] Sometimes a pediatrician doesn't notice that.

[325] So I like parents to be alert to changes in their.

[326] sons.

[327] And one of the questions I ask them, if they say, he's gotten so moody or he can't fall asleep at night or he's kind of clamming up.

[328] We don't know what happened.

[329] And I say, does he have any body odor?

[330] There we go.

[331] Yeah.

[332] Because it would be, if you said, I imagine how big as testicles, they might freak out.

[333] Don't go look at their mouth.

[334] Okay, so odor.

[335] Yeah, I have friends with boys and the mom said, yeah, he's starting to smell.

[336] Like we have to feel.

[337] Like we have to figure out deodor.

[338] And she said, but he's too young.

[339] And he's not.

[340] So girls don't menstruate until two years after the first signs.

[341] And it's body odor, oily hair, a single pimple, and mood swings.

[342] And having difficulty falling asleep at night, separate from the whole blue light and screens, it's the circadian rhythm of adolescence.

[343] Because going back to hunters and gatherers, they are meant to take the night watch, the teenagers.

[344] as we traveled across the belt to protect us from danger.

[345] And so they're not sleepy at 10 o 'clock.

[346] They're 10 years old.

[347] Yeah, this world's not for them.

[348] It's a real mismatch.

[349] That is so funny, because we were just on a group vacation, and there were two actual teens, and they were up far past any of us.

[350] They were up late into the night, and we were always like, the teens.

[351] And then, of course, they slept until, like, 11.

[352] It was just so funny to see just this, Specific to doing that.

[353] So I do most of my work with mom and dad together about the kids.

[354] And these are not people whose marriages are in trouble, and these are loving, devoted, intelligent parents, and they're struggling.

[355] The fact that they've come to therapy says a lot about how dedicated they are.

[356] I ask them if the father and the child that they're concerned about have any things that they enjoy doing together without the rest of the family.

[357] It's really important.

[358] It's very important for girls in their future relationships.

[359] And it's important for the boys to feel important enough for his vaunted dad.

[360] So I don't care what they watch almost.

[361] I'm so happy for them to share.

[362] And I never ever like the phrase guilty pleasures because I want us to have lots of all sorts of pleasure.

[363] So it doesn't have to be educational or cultural or bodybuilding or developing a lifetime sport.

[364] I'm so happy for father and child to be making vibrating mirror neurons together.

[365] Oh, that's lovely.

[366] I had some questions in thinking about the fact that you've actually been doing this for 35 years now.

[367] 45.

[368] 45 years.

[369] How, 45 years.

[370] Oh, you've seen some stuff and changes.

[371] And that's exactly what I was curious about.

[372] Over these 45 years, would you say that kids are generally the same or has this rapidly changing technological environment fundamentally changed children?

[373] And I have some different specific categories.

[374] But I guess overall, have you noticed that?

[375] Or do you think, no, kids are just kids still?

[376] So a couple of things have changed.

[377] The culture has changed.

[378] We've already talked about how kids are entering.

[379] puberty younger, which is a very significant change because the kids are superficially very sophisticated, but they don't have as much life experience as kids did even when I started my practice.

[380] They don't have the opportunity to develop street smarts for two reasons.

[381] One is the false fears that parents have about crime and abduction, and certainly that happens, but it's wildly rare, but it makes a great news headline.

[382] And the other is there aren't other kids on the street.

[383] So when all of us were growing up, we could go outside and there would be other kids and there would be no adult supervising, both of you, right?

[384] Oh, God, yeah.

[385] I saw my mom like 45 minutes a day.

[386] Exactly.

[387] And neither of you minded that.

[388] It was a party.

[389] Oh, that's so nice.

[390] And my parents are scarty cats and they still let us.

[391] They didn't have a choice.

[392] They're both working, right?

[393] Yeah, but even when they were there, like, on the weekends and stuff, I would still go next door or go out in the neighborhood.

[394] And they're, to me, the most scared parents.

[395] And even they were just like, yeah, that's what you do.

[396] That's fine.

[397] I got a text from a neighbor yesterday that said, just saw two blonde little girls wandering around the neighborhood.

[398] I assume they're yours and I'm delighted to see it.

[399] That was my childhood.

[400] But, like, it's so rare that if you see it, you might think to text somebody about it, you know, that they were.

[401] That was so weird to him.

[402] Wow.

[403] Luckily, he was delighted, but I think that's really telling that, yeah, you don't see little kid.

[404] And this is, you're not going to get a safer neighborhood in Los Angeles than this.

[405] Have you had Lenore Scanesi on the show?

[406] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[407] So her organization, Let Grow, is devoted to giving children the opportunity to have some freedom.

[408] Free -range kids.

[409] Free -range kids.

[410] It used to be called free -range parenting.

[411] Now it's called Let Grow or Free Range Kids.

[412] And she was voted the worst mother in New York many, many years ago.

[413] And a lot of news cycles were talking about how terrible she was.

[414] Loved it.

[415] She is an enlightened, courageous, important force in the culture.

[416] So the answer to your question is we've gotten brainwashed about danger, one.

[417] And the other is the displacement of anxiety.

[418] So parents are older than they were when our parents had us.

[419] They're worried about their own mortality, not conscious, the world and the condition of the world, hyper -conscious of this.

[420] And then will their children have the life skills necessary to make it on their own and to thrive?

[421] So a wonderful new book by Lawrence Steinberg, who is the professor who's written all the books on adolescence, textbooks and popular books and he has one now called you and your adult child came out this year and he says this is what we need to do subtract five years from their age and think of yourself when you were that age so if you have a 30 year old think of them as 25 oh wow okay that makes sense because they are and then he says give them money if you can Really?

[422] Be very, very nice and compassionate to them.

[423] Never say to them when I was your age.

[424] I had already blah, blah, and blah.

[425] One place where you need to make boundaries and make rules is if they're 30 and they're living at home instead of scorn, or even if they're 25, you know, college graduates, to say, you know, if you're going to have somebody sleep over.

[426] I don't want to be going into the kitchen for coffee and there's a stranger there in the morning.

[427] So we need to come to an agreement about house rules.

[428] Right, yeah.

[429] I'm not going to love seeing some 25 -year -old dude in boxers in my kitchen.

[430] Oh, right.

[431] Yeah, and you're totally entitled to that?

[432] Yeah, yeah, it's not going to be for me. I'm very pro -sex.

[433] I hope they're very happy and adventurous.

[434] Where are they supposed to have it, next?

[435] You know, in their car like everyone else did, I guess.

[436] If I listed all the places.

[437] Or like leave out the window like they used to do before dad and mom wake up and know.

[438] Exactly right.

[439] But now, because of all the little cams everywhere, they leave out the window and there's a record of that.

[440] Sure, your phone vibrates.

[441] It's just surveillance.

[442] It's true.

[443] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[444] We've all been there.

[445] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[446] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[447] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[448] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[449] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[450] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[451] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[452] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[453] What's up, guys?

[454] This is your girl Kiki and my podcast.

[455] is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[456] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[457] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[458] And I don't mean just friends.

[459] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[460] The list goes on.

[461] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[462] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[463] Okay, so it has changed, obviously.

[464] Social media is one kind of umbrella that's broad.

[465] on as at least the data I read about in headlines, an increased level of anxiety and feelings of separation and self -consciousness and all these different things.

[466] Is that an overblown fear?

[467] Because I'm with you.

[468] In fact, this last election cycle, someone said, well, I'm going to vote for this mayor because they've got this really strong anti -crime bill.

[469] And I said, anti -crime bill, you know Los Angeles, like the most safe place you could possibly be in the country if you're out in the fucking farm you're four times more likely to die they're like no i look up the data from every city in the country always literally your chance of getting killed or like one per whatever it was 150 ,000 the lowest it's ever been in history yes and i'm like this is the data it's not dangerous we don't need a crime it's just not true so a lot of these things are really overblown but the social media thing to me seems legit and seems to be the thing that people are least policing their kids about.

[470] And there are two different aspects of it.

[471] One is what kids are exposed to.

[472] That fear can be slightly exaggerated, that they're going to see things they can never unsee, or this is an old one.

[473] I don't think people do this so much anymore.

[474] They will be groomed by a predator.

[475] Remember that?

[476] Yes, this is the moral panic of, yes, yes.

[477] Or that they'll become anorexic.

[478] I think that's one of the big fears.

[479] The algorithmic motivation to steal your child's spirit, equilibrium, self -confidence, that part is true because there are no guardrails.

[480] And right now there's a lot of activity around this, the heads of the tech companies, the government, all kinds of organizations figuring out how we set in place rules of civil.

[481] engagement, protection of children, because this wildly powerful tool is available to everyone.

[482] And its main motivation is grabbing your eyeballs and making money from it.

[483] Yeah.

[484] And you're going to spend a couple hours a day on it.

[485] Everyone could have a doctor degree by the time they graduated high school if they committed as much time to biology as they do, myself included.

[486] And something that's hard to understand about dopamine is that it's desire.

[487] It's not satisfaction.

[488] There's a new New York Times game since Wordle called Connections, Connections Beta.

[489] Unhear this, both of you.

[490] Oh, really?

[491] Okay.

[492] Oh, boy.

[493] Listen and then forget immediately.

[494] It's so addictive.

[495] Oh, God.

[496] It's ecstasy.

[497] So I wake up in the morning no matter how bad I'm feeling.

[498] And when I wake up in the morning, sometimes I am not feeling good.

[499] By the end of the day, I would feel fine.

[500] Because all of us depressive have that rhythm through the day.

[501] It takes about three minutes.

[502] The ease of access, one click, there you are.

[503] And it's lavender and purple and yellow and turquoise.

[504] And you make, I shouldn't.

[505] Yeah, I'm dying to know what the game is.

[506] I'm dying to know.

[507] Okay, the game is, there are 16 words, and you have to make four categories.

[508] And I won't say which one it was.

[509] But I was once invited to be on the scientific advisory board.

[510] of one of the dating apps.

[511] They said to me, in trying to get me to sign on, we have the top neuroscientists in the country.

[512] And then I was talking to one of the founders of a video game company.

[513] And I said to him, do you design the games to be addictive?

[514] It was a really long time ago.

[515] And he said, we have the top neuroscientists in the country working for us.

[516] Uh -huh.

[517] So, and this is what parents are up against.

[518] Do the girls play games?

[519] You know, we have a contradictory mixed bag of things they can do and not do, right?

[520] So there's no video games.

[521] There's no social media, obviously.

[522] They're only 8 and 10.

[523] But they're allowed to watch a ton of TV, so that's contradictory maybe.

[524] But I'm like, well, it's story and its character.

[525] And it doesn't have an algorithm.

[526] And it's not designed the way the games are so that if you stop, you lose what you have gained.

[527] Oh, that's interesting.

[528] specific different because the boys are always saying mom i can't stop now i'm in the middle of a round or a battle and it's designed that way so they watch tv they watch a lot of tv i'm if i'm being dead honest what do they watch a lot of these disney sitcoms but they also love documentaries like as a family we watch a ton of nature documentaries we went crazy over chimp empire maybe monica would actually be better at saying this because you observe it and i'm stuck on the inside but they do dangerous stuff They ride dirt bikes.

[529] In fact, I'm frustrated that the 10 -year -old doesn't want to stay at home by herself.

[530] I very much think she could stay at home by herself while we went somewhere.

[531] She didn't want to, but I think she's very capable to do so.

[532] What does she say about not wanting to?

[533] She's scared in the house if we're not there, which has been its own ride for me. It's not a little apartment, Dak. Right, exactly.

[534] It's a scary house.

[535] I'd be scared to stay there by myself.

[536] I was scared just to look at it because I haven't been here in a year.

[537] Well, listeners are going to think I'm in like an 8 ,000 square foot house.

[538] It's a very beautiful house.

[539] It's 4 ,000 square feet, just for the record.

[540] But that's not for her.

[541] Not for her.

[542] I just want to say that that's a lovely way to think about it.

[543] It's not for her yet.

[544] Yeah.

[545] So she shares a bedroom with Delta.

[546] They share a room.

[547] The sweetest conversation ever that happened.

[548] Delta was basically like, I want to move out.

[549] She's ready.

[550] Of the room.

[551] She's eight.

[552] She's the younger sister.

[553] And she says, I want to move out.

[554] Because she is, I think, very independent.

[555] And she also wants to text her boyfriend.

[556] Right, right, sure.

[557] She has all these.

[558] imaginative games.

[559] She can go into that world very easily.

[560] She plays with water babies like I did and all of those things.

[561] So she wanted to move out into the guest room and Lincoln was really not wanting that.

[562] They came up with a really cute solution.

[563] Delta said, okay, how about when you're 11, we revisit this basically?

[564] And then Lincoln said, okay, I have a year to toughen up.

[565] It was so sweet.

[566] And the older child is more anxious generally.

[567] Oh, really?

[568] Yes, especially oldest girls because they were the only child.

[569] So they didn't have a posse that provides you with some comfort and relief.

[570] And the parents were less experienced and more nervous.

[571] More nervous for sure.

[572] They tend to achieve a lot firstborn girls, very successful.

[573] only children as well.

[574] And the third.

[575] Who knows?

[576] Great sense of humor generally.

[577] A jester.

[578] Roll around with just whatever is happening.

[579] Anytime there were three boys in my town, the third was always the most fearless humans you ever saw.

[580] Yes, that's right?

[581] Really competing with two people way older than them.

[582] The whole thing with my 10 -year -old's fear, the journey I went on was like, okay, I want her to be brave.

[583] Why?

[584] Because I hate feeling afraid.

[585] I don't want her to be afraid of the world.

[586] I took her on the subway to downtown.

[587] She's hypervigilant, right?

[588] So she's aware of everything that's going on.

[589] This homeless person's taking his pants down, okay, but he doesn't have a weapon.

[590] You know, she's on it.

[591] Did she say those things, or you could tell that's what she was thinking?

[592] I could tell she was scanning, and I said, are you nervous about all the homeless people that are down here?

[593] And she said, yeah.

[594] And I said, totally understood.

[595] I said, but you know, a silverback gorilla could come down the street, and it's not getting through me to get to you.

[596] So you're safe.

[597] Of course, I want that to be comforting.

[598] It's not.

[599] That's my own issue, right?

[600] You're introducing the silverback gorilla and the two of you wrestling, scaring her more.

[601] I think I can just cut to the end after wrestling this for like a year thinking about how, if I had to say I was disappointed by one thing, it was how fearful she was.

[602] It wasn't what I wanted for her.

[603] She and I are really similar, and Delta and her mom are very, very same.

[604] similar.

[605] And what I ultimately came to was I too was terrified and I didn't have anyone protecting me. That's right.

[606] What I've come to embrace is that I've given her a place that she's free to be scared.

[607] And I started looking at this as an accomplishment and not a failure on my end.

[608] But it took me a year.

[609] I was on a hike and I realized like, okay, so we're so identical.

[610] Do we not think I must have been terrified.

[611] I was terrified and it wasn't an option and I had to grow up really quick and I had to get over it because I was by myself at the house and I had a little sister that was six months old and mom was at work and the older brother was supposed to watch the kid left to play hockey.

[612] So I didn't have the option and I just thought this is a win.

[613] She has the option to be scared as long as she wants to be.

[614] But fuck that took a while.

[615] She has the option.

[616] She's not ashamed.

[617] Yes.

[618] And you can think of it as discernment.

[619] As a Yeah, and that's what I started realizing is I'm introducing shame to her.

[620] And I don't want her to be ashamed.

[621] She's just alert.

[622] She's alert and alarmed.

[623] It's appropriate to her age.

[624] This is the purpose of literature.

[625] This is the purpose of some of the TV shows.

[626] She watches to metabolize that because if we were not fearful organisms, not one of us would be here.

[627] So the four of us are in this room because we won the Darwinian battle by by being appropriately afraid, not reckless, and not dumb.

[628] Yeah, exactly.

[629] So she's practicing fear without feeling shame or inhibition about telling her daddy about it.

[630] And this is paradoxical because it sounds like you can reinforce it.

[631] But if you pretend she's not your daughter, you can be interested.

[632] So she's Kristen's sister, who she doesn't like very much.

[633] I'm making this up.

[634] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[635] Kristen's sister's daughter, but they really live in Indiana.

[636] They're coming to a visit.

[637] Okay, sure, sure.

[638] A different kind of creature, and she's talking to her uncle, and you're just interested.

[639] You're right.

[640] I would be so interested.

[641] What's going to happen?

[642] It's scary in the subway.

[643] Yep.

[644] Not just for a kid.

[645] When I heard the story, I was like, it would be crazy if she wasn't.

[646] We should be more worried if she's just like.

[647] Well, like Delta's plopping on the lap of someone on the subway?

[648] Oh, yeah, she don't give a fuck.

[649] She'll just get in the mix.

[650] with anybody that scares me more because i'm like no no no no no no there's some stuff to be aware of yeah these little lies i tell myself along the way is like well no i'm giving her tools to combat this fear right i'm pointing out how safe the world really is but only if you're there that's not even a real tool you're not always going to be there yeah and i'm trying to talk her out of how she feels about it ultimately which i don't want to do and it's funny because i don't do that on other topics do you think i have a good habit of when she is having a problem and she tells me about it.

[651] My very first hunch is not to try to give her a game plan out of it.

[652] I just immediately start trying to remember a time when I was her age and I felt that way.

[653] And all I say is like, oh my gosh, me too.

[654] I used to go to my friend's house and they all prayed and I didn't know any of these prayers and I thought they weren't going to like me. And it's so awkward, isn't it?

[655] And so I've done it that way.

[656] But this fear thing was its own thing.

[657] It scares me if she's afraid.

[658] And you're also projecting.

[659] So you imagine her a fearful woman.

[660] a victim, a martyr, a person without boundaries, or a self.

[661] It's always surprising to parents to see that if you're very relaxed about the fear but curious and just as you said before, respectful of it, that's what helps to dissipate it.

[662] I'm excited to show curiosity next time, yeah.

[663] It's fear about the fear.

[664] They see you right through it.

[665] Yeah, yeah.

[666] Here's something they never do.

[667] Slap themselves on the side of the face and say, oh father thank you so much for enlightening that solves everything about this was it a silverback gorilla ball i'm never going to be scared on the subway again and i may become a conductor or i may commit my own crimes on the subway and how about how egotistical it is for me to think well how could she not feel so safe all of a sudden it was about my ability to protect them and her being fearful somehow that i'm not capable of protecting her and it's sweet you definitely don't want to beat yourself up about it because this is big daddy love and this is your little girl and you want her to feel confident but it's just like the way we want the boys to be as sturdy vigilant self -controlled students as the girls we want the girls to be these wildly valiant glass ceiling and obstacle breakers at every turn and they're just fragile little animals finding their way.

[668] Another one of these little subcategories I thought of in the last 45 years is what do you think about the increased labeling of children with things from the DSM that are giving kids an explanation by way of a condition we give them.

[669] And I guess my hunch and fear is that in any moment of confusion or anxiety or loneliness or feeling excluded, any of the many, many normal trials, We're all looking for an explanation of why are we excluded?

[670] Why are we lonely?

[671] Why do we feel this way?

[672] And if we have this condition, it's an appealing proposition, which is like, well, I'm going to give you an explanation.

[673] You have anxiety disorder.

[674] That concerns me a bit.

[675] As much as I'm very pro -mental health, and I like talking about it, and I like exploring all the different things that people have and the tools.

[676] Has there been any price that we've paid by labeling kids as frequently as we have over the last?

[677] Well, first of all, am I even right that there's been a huge uptick in this?

[678] The DSM has grown.

[679] Because I've been in this game for so long from a slender little volume to an encyclopedia.

[680] And more and more people I'm bumping into are like, yeah, I was wrongly diagnosed as bipolar.

[681] It turns out I'm attachment disorder.

[682] And then I think we'll be open to a third or fourth diagnosis down the road.

[683] Have we paid a price for these labels, do you think?

[684] It's sort of like social media in that it works both ways.

[685] In social media, kids who don't feel they have a tribe or affinity with the people that they're living with, because they're different in their interests or their style or their longings, can find a group to identify with that will support them.

[686] And it's similar to the diagnoses.

[687] So when I started out, we had about three diagnoses that we used.

[688] Pervasive developmental disorder, NOS.

[689] NOS is not otherwise specified.

[690] And then we had old -fashioned schizophrenia.

[691] I remember that?

[692] Sure, sure.

[693] So the developmental disorder covered old learning problem.

[694] And then for mood disorders, for kids, we had one diagnosis.

[695] We had one drug, too.

[696] Kids could get Ritalin in the old days.

[697] And then an antipsychotic drug that we gave to kids who were acting out.

[698] I did my internship and my postdoc at Cedars, Sinai Medical Center here in Los Angeles.

[699] We love it.

[700] Very prestigious.

[701] Yeah, we love it.

[702] Department of psychiatry as a psychologist.

[703] And what insurance companies allowed us to do then was if a teenager was causing their parents' trouble, we could hospitalize them as long as we wanted on the inpatient unit.

[704] Oh, my God.

[705] Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

[706] Based on what the parent is saying.

[707] Yeah, I remember one particular case of a girl, and she was a really good artist.

[708] She did these very dark drawings.

[709] I mean, now she would be an anime queen.

[710] Right.

[711] But it made them nervous.

[712] And I had a family with a seven -year -old who talked about death a lot.

[713] They were worried that he might be severely depressed or suicidal.

[714] And I went to my supervisor, who is a psychologist that I'm having dinner with tonight.

[715] Oh, that's lovely.

[716] And his wife and their daughter is an Olympic athlete.

[717] Oh, my mom.

[718] They are just the coolest people.

[719] So he was my first supervisor, and I went to him and I said, Al, here's what the seven -year -old is saying.

[720] Do we need to hospitalize him?

[721] This is really how we thought then.

[722] It was like the dark ages.

[723] There are books by the Gazelle Institute in New Haven called Your 1 -year -old, your 2 -year -old, your 3 -year -old.

[724] And he took the book, Your 7 -year -old, off the shelf.

[725] And it was called Your 7 -year -old, Life in a Minor Key.

[726] And when you look in the index of this book under death, it's a seven -year -old very preoccupied with death because it's the first time they really can understand.

[727] It was very primitive.

[728] And the lack of understanding we had about the nuance of mood disorders, learning disorders, and child development that seven -year -olds are gloomy.

[729] We hope so.

[730] So we knew very little.

[731] and now we have gone in the other direction.

[732] It's swung.

[733] So we are diagnosing normal childhood as pathology, and we are treating it and depriving children of the opportunity to learn how to manage feelings, to learn how to study, to learn how to apply themselves.

[734] The good path is taking all this enlightenment about the brain.

[735] We didn't have fMRIs.

[736] We didn't know what the working brain looked like at all.

[737] So it was speculation and ignorance.

[738] Right.

[739] And now it's so extreme.

[740] So families want a diagnosis, want things fixed.

[741] I do a lot of support work with teachers and school administrators because parents are driving them out of their minds with worry.

[742] This is very, very common in my practice now is parents who are panicked about a grade of B. I mean, it's so hard to empathize with it, but they're fearful.

[743] And they're fearful because they think that every grade on every quiz or test is a prediction of that child's whole future.

[744] Yeah.

[745] Back to what you were saying about labeling, that helps in some ways because it makes you understand what the feelings are.

[746] If you have anxiety, but you don't know it's anxiety, it causes more anxiety.

[747] There's something helpful to having a label, too.

[748] I mean, even for me, when they find them, we're just like, you have anxiety for so long.

[749] I was like, I have a tumor.

[750] Stuff is happening to me. I'm not making this up, but I'm feeling disoriented.

[751] The answer of its anxiety was like, oh.

[752] That helped you right -size all those fears.

[753] Yes, it was like, oh, that's what is happening.

[754] There's a thing happening.

[755] I'm not going crazy.

[756] It was helpful to me. Many parents find out that they have attention deficit disorder when their child is diagnosed.

[757] Right.

[758] So I did psychological testing for years, and I would tell parents that their child had this problem.

[759] And the mom was frequently elbowing the dad.

[760] Because the description was...

[761] The dad.

[762] I am very compassionate to parents who have a kid that's dealing with something that they themselves haven't dealt with.

[763] So by my expert analysis, I think Lincoln, the oldest, also has dyslexia or some version of that.

[764] I compare her overall intelligence or what I think that to be versus what she's doing at a reading level.

[765] And there's a big discrepancy there.

[766] But I have zero fear about it because I already went through it.

[767] I'm like, yeah, I figured it all out.

[768] Yeah, this is going to be the hard section.

[769] Like elementary is going to be rough for her.

[770] But because I had the experience of it clicking for me, I'm not very worried.

[771] But if I didn't have that experience, I can imagine being like, she's so smart.

[772] Why is she falling behind?

[773] What's going to happen?

[774] Why is the system not catering to this intelligence I know she has?

[775] It would be very overwhelming for me, but simply having gone through it, I'm like, yeah, and it'll all get sorted out.

[776] Lincoln recognizes, and you do, that you can make your way very far in life with all kinds of complicated strengths and challenges.

[777] Let's just say that we have interviewed probably a dozen billionaires at this point.

[778] I can't say one of these billionaires was someone that was neurotypical.

[779] Absolutely not.

[780] Yeah.

[781] Not that that's the goal billion.

[782] But I'd say more often in here, it trends to not neurotypical for the people we interview.

[783] I don't know if it was ever determined to be true or not that Einstein had a hole in his brain.

[784] After he died, they found it.

[785] What this is making me think about in relation to boys is when parents come to me and they say, we're really worried he's going to become a serial killer.

[786] He doesn't think about other people.

[787] He's not kind to us.

[788] And we think it's just going to go really dark and scary.

[789] And invariably, and these are also the people get into my office.

[790] So they're colorful in the way they talk.

[791] And their sons are unlikely to become serial killers.

[792] They might.

[793] But I say, what do the teachers say about him?

[794] And they say, oh, the teachers love.

[795] So we think he's a sociopath.

[796] Oh, sure, sure.

[797] And then I say, okay, okay, how about his grandparents?

[798] How does he treat his grandparents?

[799] And they say, he's lovely with his grandparents, but they give him money.

[800] So we think he's like a manipulative narcissist.

[801] And then I say, okay, how about little kids?

[802] And they say he really, really loves his little cousins and he's so sweet with them.

[803] And that's the thing boys get deprived of a lot.

[804] Is nurturing little things?

[805] Opportunity for the expression of tenderness and trust that adults would give them in taking care of little kids.

[806] Wendy, I can't wait for you to watch Chimp Empire.

[807] Okay.

[808] Because the alphas are terrible.

[809] You hate them.

[810] Everyone's peacefully eating some fruit and these alphas come by and they have these displays of aggression to reinforce that they're in charge.

[811] How did they do the?

[812] They grab logs.

[813] They hit people.

[814] They grab people.

[815] They throw them.

[816] I'm calling the chimps people.

[817] But yes, they're wreaking havoc.

[818] They're running through going, I'm indomitable and I'm in charge and you hate them.

[819] But as the show evolves and you realize the pressure that they have, well, there's two other males that are waiting to kill this one so they can be alpha.

[820] They're fighting this other troop over territory.

[821] And that guy in the show, Jackson, he's first one in, man. He is up against three every single time.

[822] And then the most heartbreaking and beautiful moment.

[823] And this is a very well.

[824] established pattern in chimps the alphas adopt orphans so there's these orphans in all these troops where their mothers have died and they're abandoned and no one takes them in and alphas always take these orphans in now an alpha doesn't groom anyone everyone's got to groom the alpha but he gets to groom the little orphan and you see same things happening in the other troop and you go all these fucking poor alphas it's like the most thankless job and they don't ever get to be tender and nurture lonely at the top it's so sad isolated keeping up your persona and your image.

[825] And this care, nurturing, grooming, it is hardwired into us so hard.

[826] And apparently chimpanzees.

[827] Yeah.

[828] Okay, what happens if the parents say he's tough in school and he hits other kids and my parents also find him difficult?

[829] What if the answers are, no, he's difficult?

[830] He killed a cat last week?

[831] Let's go all the way, Monica.

[832] No, no, because I want to make it realistic, because I actually know a situation like this currently.

[833] How old is that child?

[834] I want to say six -ish.

[835] I don't know this child well.

[836] Did the problem start with the school complaining to the parents?

[837] No, I don't think so.

[838] But the school is complaining to the parents.

[839] I don't know enough.

[840] I know there's been observations made that are worrisome about this little boy, and not just this little boy with parents, but with other kids.

[841] seemingly very little empathy, very aggressive, and the grandparents have concerns as well.

[842] But I don't know about the school.

[843] So that's the first question I always ask of parents, because I basically want kids to be good in school and bad at home.

[844] Yeah, ding, ding, ding.

[845] Those are healthy kids?

[846] That was me. Were you so bad at home?

[847] Oh, I was so mean to my parents.

[848] Yeah, it's so perfect at school.

[849] Yeah.

[850] Mine was flipped.

[851] I was torturous teachers.

[852] And it's so sweet to my mom.

[853] So interesting.

[854] Your situation was very specific, though, and your relationship and your very special mom.

[855] Yeah.

[856] But with a conventional nuclear family template, when kids are respectful and follow the rules at school, which is exhausting for them and boring and frustrating.

[857] So they come home and they let it out when the little child in the parent response.

[858] back to that with frustration or anger or fear of the future, that's what reinforces it.

[859] Something is going on with this little boy where if he is behaving well at home, he's overtired, he doesn't get to run around in free play enough outside, or the parents are afraid to step in and teach family citizenship and etiquette.

[860] And I see this a lot now.

[861] We're so focused on their achievement and on their happiness, dangerous combination.

[862] They need to perform well at everything.

[863] And they should be in a good mood most of the time.

[864] Sure.

[865] Well, they're on top.

[866] Feels good.

[867] That's exactly right.

[868] They're on top and they rule it.

[869] And then the parents are kind of puzzled and angry about why they're not following really ordinary rules.

[870] So I work with families with really big kids who don't dress themselves, who are in diapers for a really long time, who don't clear the table after they eat.

[871] Because they know how to say, by the time they're 10, four magic words, they just say, oh, mother, I would do that.

[872] You know, I would clear the table or even put the dishes in the dishwasher.

[873] But the four magic words are, I have a test.

[874] Yeah, yep.

[875] A test?

[876] Is it in one of the stem Disappanities?

[877] And just go upstairs to your room and I will bring you your dinner on a tray and I'll make you some flash cards do you prefer Ariel or Verdana for the fun.

[878] We worship at that altar instead of, I wish I had like a cooler, more modern word for it, but it's mannerliness towards each other.

[879] Oh man, that is so true.

[880] Since we interviewed you five and a half years ago, there was this great Johns Hopkins study that came out, I believe it was Johns Hopkins.

[881] They had problem children and they were giving the kids therapy and then they thought, well, let's also give therapy to the parents and see what the outcome is.

[882] That was an improvement.

[883] And then they skipped the kid altogether and just did the parents and that by far yielded the best results.

[884] So in that vein, how often do the parents come in thinking they're to receive some beautiful anecdote to their kid's behavior only to realize it's they who need to make some changes and that maybe it's even relationship between the two parents or that the parents generally are the ones that need probably some help more than the kid.

[885] Almost always and certainly in my practice because parents know who they're coming to.

[886] So I'm the one who beats up parents and laughs at them and laughs with them and the kids are generally pretty fine.

[887] However, it gets back to what we were talking about the DSM because sometimes it is.

[888] the kid.

[889] Okay, right.

[890] And they need treatment.

[891] They need medication.

[892] Uh -huh.

[893] And it's such a scary, dirty word at this point.

[894] Oh, the big farm on what we're doing to children.

[895] Some of them need that.

[896] They need therapy.

[897] They need medication.

[898] They need diagnosis.

[899] They need treatment.

[900] So much of the time, just working with parents is the most.

[901] So it'd probably be irresponsible for you to guess unless you had an actual study to quote.

[902] But what percentage of the time do you think there is a an actual pathology that needs a medical intervention and all of this.

[903] I can't say.

[904] Yeah.

[905] Let's just go back to the parents that had a fear that their kid was a sociopath.

[906] I guess my first thought would just be to give them the actual incident rate out of 10 ,000 of people who are sociopaths.

[907] First and foremost, you'd have to go, well, then you hit the lottery.

[908] I mean, this is a very, very unique thing to have landed on your doorstep.

[909] And he's going to be famous if he's a serial killer.

[910] They'll be true crime podcast.

[911] and TV shows and limited series.

[912] You've got a franchise on your hand.

[913] But to be fair to those parents, I mean, when something really bad happens in the world, when there's a school shooting, you do look at the person and think, how do the parents not see this?

[914] Or how did no one intervene earlier on?

[915] There's blame and guilt that gets sent up the chain.

[916] But even that, the school shooting, which is the most horrific and terrible thing possible, there are 60 million kids in the U .S. and two of them a year shoot somebody?

[917] It's horrific, but we do have to keep the scale of it in our minds when we're fearful of it.

[918] It's very hard to do that as a parent because your child in your imagination and their safety.

[919] And again, this is biological.

[920] This is instinct to protect your child exactly the way you wanted to say, I will keep you safe.

[921] Here I am.

[922] Kill everyone around.

[923] The incidence is very, very.

[924] low and the fear threshold just because we are protective humans and then the constant news feed.

[925] It is so amplified and it's so old -fashioned now if it bleeds, it leads.

[926] Yeah, yeah.

[927] But to lead now in our attention economy, it has to be really scary.

[928] Children, victims are the best.

[929] So we have all this crackpot stuff going on right now about child sex trafficking.

[930] Oh, my God.

[931] That it's just wild.

[932] Yeah.

[933] But it's brilliant the way it can capture imagination.

[934] Yeah.

[935] And it's so old.

[936] We had a witchcraft expert on.

[937] What would we call that guy down in Texas?

[938] Yeah.

[939] He was saying the QAnon storyline is identical to the Salem witch trials.

[940] Oh, exactly.

[941] That it's all the exact same thing.

[942] It's always they abduct children, but no one's missing children, but no one really cares about that, right?

[943] So where are the parents of these abducted children?

[944] None of them are on the news.

[945] They're just not reporting these abductions.

[946] It's so old and it just gets recycled and it works every time.

[947] When so many systems feel unstable, the distress over that fragility of a strong social infrastructure gets displaced onto.

[948] to the boogeyman.

[949] And the boogeyman is the fantasized abductor of children.

[950] I love your point about where are those parents?

[951] Why aren't they speaking up?

[952] Yeah, we do this conspiracy show thing.

[953] There's like mold children.

[954] There's like 10 ,000 people under, I'm like, where are the 20 ,000 parents who are missing children that didn't report it?

[955] Okay, now this one I just want to throw at you because I recently heard it.

[956] And I had a strong opinion about it.

[957] Two sets of friends whose teenage children started dating.

[958] Each other.

[959] Uh -huh.

[960] Then there was a breakup, as happens in high school.

[961] And then the breaker -upper was posting pictures of their new boyfriend or girlfriend on social media.

[962] Was it boyfriend or girlfriend?

[963] Do you know?

[964] I think it was the girl who dumped the boy in this case.

[965] You can already tell.

[966] I do too.

[967] Oh, wow.

[968] They also initiate more of the divorces.

[969] Oh, interesting.

[970] Interesting.

[971] By a lot.

[972] Continue.

[973] Oh, my God.

[974] So then the parents of the boy who's grieving and sad and staring at the social media of the ex -girlfriend, those parents go to the other parents and say, you got to tell her to take down those pictures, you know, Bryce will call him is suffering.

[975] How old are the people?

[976] These are 16 -year -olds.

[977] Out.

[978] Yeah.

[979] Also, the boy she's dating is a really bad boy.

[980] Bryce says, I heard this and I was.

[981] like, are they going to do this through college and adulthood?

[982] They are.

[983] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[984] So all the colleges now have someone in a role.

[985] They have other euphemistic names for them, but the real role is Dean of Parents.

[986] First of all, they were deeply involved in the college application process.

[987] Probably did all of it.

[988] Very often.

[989] A student was applying to Kenyan, and the mother changed the spelling to K -E -N -Y -A -N on the essay.

[990] Your love letter to the school about why you want to go there, and it's K -E -N -Y -O -N is the name of the school.

[991] Okay.

[992] I wouldn't know.

[993] You messed it up.

[994] I could tell you to do it.

[995] She messed it up.

[996] She spelled it like the country Kenya, the people who live in the country Kenya.

[997] Oh, my God.

[998] And then they come and they get together sometimes with the roommates, mom, about how to to decorate the room.

[999] They help to choose courses, to choose majors.

[1000] And again, these are loving, devoted, nervous parents.

[1001] Very well -intentioned.

[1002] So the dean of parents at the colleges has to feed calls and mostly their emails that the parent expects to be responded to within hours.

[1003] That they wrote on three glasses of wine at 11 p .m. So I was talking to a mom recently.

[1004] is not a patient to mine, a friend, wrote a letter to the school, upset about the way another child had treated her daughter.

[1005] At college?

[1006] No, this is a five -year -old.

[1007] Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay.

[1008] She wrote a letter to the school saying, you're really not handling this well.

[1009] And then she asked her brother, who's a big tech guy, to pass it through CHAPT, to make sure the tone was respectful enough.

[1010] Oh, my God.

[1011] So he did that for her.

[1012] and the tone was much better, and she accidentally sent the first one.

[1013] Oh, oopsies.

[1014] But the reason I'm telling this story is it has everything baked into it, the involvement, the sense of terrible urgency.

[1015] We have 16 -year -olds here, and the 16 -year -old boys have much greater heartache than the girls, and it goes right back to the beach and to your friends, stacks, because the girls have each other to process it with, to just work it through.

[1016] A boy admitting he's hurting to a friend is so rare.

[1017] Exactly right.

[1018] And the girlfriend say he wasn't good enough for you anyway.

[1019] They support you.

[1020] And they actually love you more than you ever loved a boy.

[1021] I mean, you have the biological crush on a boy, but the deep alliance.

[1022] There's a word I'm going to use on the podcast this season, which is Lao Tong.

[1023] I believe it's Chinese, and it means old sames.

[1024] Yeah, I know, I love that.

[1025] And it's about old Chinese women who are closer to each other than any two sisters or any husband and wife have ever been.

[1026] They're like soulmate sisters?

[1027] Old sames, yes, exactly.

[1028] I love it.

[1029] So these 16 -year -old girls, they have their old sames already, and the boy has nobody but shame and embarrassed about his heartache.

[1030] Who's he going to take?

[1031] To be dumped is to be emasculated.

[1032] It all funnels back.

[1033] Exactly right.

[1034] Yeah, you couldn't handle your woman.

[1035] And it's all public.

[1036] You weren't virile enough to control her.

[1037] She's dating this bad boy.

[1038] And every girl likes to date a bad boy.

[1039] Sorry, the other parents who are saying you better stop her from dating him.

[1040] They're fun and they're cute and they're sexy.

[1041] And it's not going to last most likely, but better to have a little opportunity to do that before he marry him.

[1042] Yeah, let's get wild a little bit.

[1043] And then you have to divorce him.

[1044] those billionaires probably yeah yeah i'm not in that situation so i can't really judge it because i have yet to see heartbreak my daughter's faces but that is my expectation i have no illusion that you can go on this ride through planet earth and not have your heartbroken and then learn from it and adjust and make different choices you could potentially just rob your kid of ever figuring anything out and they're maybe doomed to repeat everything if you're just kind of cleaning up the mess behind them i don't know exactly how they redirect it's not going to fix it she broke up with him that doesn't you can't make her like him the heart that's the only solution to his pain is for her to like him yeah it's not going to be able to accomplish you can't control that what was the tv show it was so good and i'm not going to think of it but there's a meme that emerged from it and the meme was the sentence, what is grief but love persevering?

[1045] Wanda vision?

[1046] Thank you, Rob.

[1047] Wanda vision.

[1048] Wanda said it.

[1049] Isn't he the greatest?

[1050] No, listen, let's just talk about Wabi Wob for one second.

[1051] Oh, I could talk about Wobby Wob forever.

[1052] I wouldn't be here too.

[1053] It wasn't for him, but you know that.

[1054] He's so spectacular.

[1055] He is like, I always say in all these CIA movies where there's like people inside the house and there's a genius like in earshot that's figuring everything.

[1056] No, no, go left here.

[1057] No, there's a tunnel right there.

[1058] That's Wobby Bob, just got all the answers all the time.

[1059] Oh.

[1060] So it's Wanda Vision.

[1061] Wanda said it, and then it became a meme, and people started riffing on it, which is like, what is kimchi, but cabbage persevering, really, really funny ones.

[1062] The reason I bring it up is that there is no grief without love.

[1063] There's no heartbreak without the ecstasy of a crush.

[1064] What a drug that is.

[1065] I hope no child is ever deprived of that.

[1066] We have a new season of nurture versus nurture.

[1067] What happened this season that was exciting for you?

[1068] Like season one, such a privilege.

[1069] It's a good group.

[1070] It's so diverse.

[1071] So for each of the families, I got to find a word that's not translatable into English, that recognizing that our experiences are global, but that in other cultures, they have words to describe some of the painful or embarrassing or confusing things that happen to us, and in other cultures, they have a word for it, and everybody knows it.

[1072] So that was so much fun, the creativity of that, of meeting these families, having a session with them, and then I had a big dictionary of words, and finding the match, and then describing in the outro, the reason I picked that word and sort of summarizing what we had learned from the family because that's really the way I felt that every family taught us something profound.

[1073] Do you ever hear one laid out for you where you get a little panic?

[1074] Like, ooh, I would do this segment on Ellen called, I think, Ask Dr. Dax.

[1075] And it was definitely fly by the seat of your pants.

[1076] And these people would ask kind of relationship advice from the audience.

[1077] And I loved it, but there was always this moment, like, mid -question, I'd start thinking, like, whoa, do I have an answer for this?

[1078] You know, was there anyone this season that you thought, oh, man, this is a tough one, or do I have an answer for that?

[1079] Or not after 45 years.

[1080] You're like, they're all similar in their essence, and I can do it.

[1081] Monica protected me from that.

[1082] So if it happened, I don't remember it happening.

[1083] and 45 years does give you a store of perspectives.

[1084] When it does happen to me sometimes is when I'm giving a talk and somebody says something from the audience that is way out there.

[1085] And you two do this too.

[1086] Sure.

[1087] In your live shows.

[1088] We fielded a couple doozies.

[1089] Yeah, so the crowd work is really you have to be on your feet.

[1090] High wire act.

[1091] It's so exhilarated.

[1092] Oh, yeah.

[1093] It's such a great drug.

[1094] It's the best.

[1095] So do you work your way through it or do you have to say, I don't know?

[1096] I'm such a know -it -all.

[1097] Yeah, sure.

[1098] Monica, you love this season?

[1099] Yeah, it's super fun.

[1100] We have a lot of interesting post -pandemic -y conversations, which obviously affected all kids.

[1101] There's some intense episodes.

[1102] Tell me about one, Moni.

[1103] Well, we have a single dad.

[1104] That one is very.

[1105] Heartbreaking, but hopeful, and what's fun about these episodes is they go all over the place.

[1106] Like, even if they come in with a problem, it ends up being about something completely different, or we go in a much different direction with it.

[1107] It's just lovely.

[1108] And I don't have kids, and it's great.

[1109] It was fun for me to edit.

[1110] I love hearing the words.

[1111] I love old sames.

[1112] I wrote to you that.

[1113] Oh, this is my favorite one.

[1114] Okay, great.

[1115] So Tuesday, August 15th, the second season of Nurture versus Nurture, return.

[1116] I hope everyone checks it out.

[1117] Most importantly, I would want everyone to know that there's so much levity and it's so fun.

[1118] It's very poignant and moving for all the reasons you would guess.

[1119] It's about parents and their children.

[1120] But the amount of comedy that's also in them and levity is so wonderful.

[1121] They're so fun to listen to in addition to being really profound.

[1122] But before you go, I think Monica and I would both like to thank you publicly.

[1123] And we've said this in many episodes since you told us this.

[1124] But you wandered into the addict one day to talk about nurture versus nurture season one.

[1125] And we were right in the middle of some kind of disagreement.

[1126] Oh, I remember that.

[1127] And you said to us, you guys are in the Beatles.

[1128] Do not break up the Beatles.

[1129] And I don't know why that cut through everything for both of us, but it was the most wonderful thing to hear.

[1130] It was very helpful.

[1131] We both feel so lucky and we shan't ever want to leave the Beatles.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] So we want to thank you for that publicly.

[1134] that was very helpful i don't remember saying that i'm so happy i did you know i've been working with my therapist on this concept that he says big s self and little s self i don't know if you've ever heard i haven't what does the s stand for oh self yeah yeah yeah the s and self got it yeah so there's like little s self and there's big s self and i have a very tenuous connection with spirituality or anything bigger than us and i wrestle with it doesn't come easy for me and big s self is a calling to think of you as some force of value that has some kind of celestial destination or some kind of importance that transcends all the minutia of all this right and so i will say this about kids i have a hard time kind of conceptualizing big ass self for me but man can i see big s self in my girls and they're the threat i'm pulling you know i see the big ass self in them they're so special the other part of the ass or the other definition is spirit and we get stuck thinking about big spirit as god right and some really old -fashioned definition of god and one of the cosmic impacts of plant medicine now and all the various serious research that's being done about it.

[1135] A basic underlying concept is we are all knit and tied together.

[1136] The trees to the other trees, the gorillas to the other gorillas, the gorillas to us.

[1137] And the children's voices, their laughter, their silly songs, the pitter -patter of their feet, And that's the music that is the biggest of children's spirit.

[1138] Yeah, yeah.

[1139] I doubt there's a parent that hasn't had the thought that they're absolutely perfect.

[1140] They come out absolutely perfect.

[1141] And you can't see that in yourself, or I can't see that in myself.

[1142] But to be able to just witness it is like a little bridge to thinking you're of value and you exist.

[1143] Boy, they take a shitload, but they give you so much.

[1144] Well, Dr. Wendy Mogul, we love you.

[1145] We love Nurture versus Nurture.

[1146] I hope everyone checks out the new season of Nurture versus Nurture.

[1147] You will absolutely love it.

[1148] It's entertaining and it's enlightening and it's just all around a party.

[1149] It's so nice to see you.

[1150] I can't believe it's been five and a half years.

[1151] I can't either.

[1152] And also just, you know, welcome home for a minute.

[1153] Thank you.

[1154] I'm very happy to be here.

[1155] All right, be well.

[1156] I just want to get into their pants.

[1157] Good morning.

[1158] Good morning.

[1159] It's always nice to see you.

[1160] You too.

[1161] After a weekend.

[1162] It is.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] Although it's not the weekend.

[1165] Ha ha.

[1166] How do we feel today?

[1167] Today's a big day.

[1168] Okay.

[1169] I mean, I think we have to break the fourth wall today.

[1170] We do.

[1171] Yeah.

[1172] Okay.

[1173] Because we're back wide.

[1174] We're back wide as of two days, three days ago.

[1175] Because of Monday.

[1176] As of Monday.

[1177] Also on Monday I wore a crazy outfit.

[1178] You did wear a crazy outfit.

[1179] And again, we're talking about your outfit on a fact check that we're not supposed to do.

[1180] But it's very cute.

[1181] Too much?

[1182] No, I like it.

[1183] Really.

[1184] I mean, it's a huge swing.

[1185] Yeah, but you can pull it off.

[1186] It's because I have, I had such success with the jumpsuits.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] So now you're in your jumpsuit era.

[1189] Yeah.

[1190] And I notice they sell.

[1191] jumpsuit shorts.

[1192] We would call that a romper.

[1193] A romper.

[1194] Okay, so I ordered a bunch of romper's, and this one's the most outrageous of all of them.

[1195] I look like a little baby.

[1196] It's a white and navy vertical stripe.

[1197] Uh -huh.

[1198] A little sailor suit.

[1199] You do look like a little baby sailor.

[1200] I'm going to credit some of this outfit to having seen Barbie this weekend.

[1201] Oh.

[1202] So now I'm, now I can speak your language.

[1203] Now I'm caught up.

[1204] I can't wait to hear your opinion.

[1205] Okay, I've interrupted a flow.

[1206] Were you saying, okay, Monday?

[1207] Oh, yes.

[1208] We're back wide and it's pretty exciting.

[1209] Very exciting.

[1210] Well, those holdouts.

[1211] Yeah, for people who just would not come over to Spotify, they don't have to anymore.

[1212] That's right, even though it was free.

[1213] But I want to make it clear that we're still partners with Spotify and everything's groovy with Spotify.

[1214] We love them very much.

[1215] And it is my preferred listening platform by far.

[1216] Same.

[1217] Yes, I went over for the obvious reason, and then I use it so much.

[1218] Yeah, I've been listening to it all weekend listening to this Taylor Swift podcast.

[1219] We'll put a pin in that, but let's talk Barbie.

[1220] Okay, so saw it yesterday at noon with the girls, Kristen, Delta, and Lincoln.

[1221] They were on their second and, in Lincoln's case, third viewing.

[1222] Wow.

[1223] And I'm not sure what expectations I had.

[1224] heard murmurs that some men are offended by it or whatever I have been saying it seems like a feminist movie and like in a positive way and then I've seen some funny people defending that there's been some funny viral clips Liz reposted one about a guy going you know people are mad that they are talking about women that's like going to Oppenheimer and saying like all they did is talk about Oppenhammer it's like yes what the movie's about whatever I've seen a bunch of funny saying all that to say I can't believe how funny it is it's so funny I couldn't I was dying like uncontrollably laughing for sometimes like seven minutes straight yes oh my god and I don't want to give much of it away but just when Ken's realizing what the real world is and he's looking around that montage oh my god of guys lifting weights and all that I just thought that was so funny and then of course can I play my good guitar at you.

[1225] At you is my favorite line of the whole movie.

[1226] But what they built off of that is so impressive.

[1227] And I walked away going of, yes, I understand what the blowback from some male viewers is in the context that we've talked about on here a ton of times, which is men's biggest fear is being embarrassed.

[1228] Yes.

[1229] In front of people.

[1230] Yes.

[1231] And it is so embarrassing.

[1232] That's very spot -off.

[1233] Now, I like being embarrassed, right?

[1234] So I'm watching it guilty of much of what's being lampooned in there.

[1235] Yeah.

[1236] But it's making me giggle so hard.

[1237] Oh, wow.

[1238] Like, we were driving home, and Lincoln goes, Mom, has dad ever played his guitar at you?

[1239] And she goes, oh, sure, a few times.

[1240] And then I'm just laughing with humiliation.

[1241] Because, yes, it's so embarrassing.

[1242] Oh, my God.

[1243] Wow.

[1244] Oh, I love so.

[1245] I love that you liked it.

[1246] Oh, I loved it.

[1247] It was incredible.

[1248] Good.

[1249] It's impressive on so many levels.

[1250] I definitely was like, this could go 50 -50 for you.

[1251] Uh -huh.

[1252] Sure, sure.

[1253] And I'm really happy and glad.

[1254] But I think it boils down to me laughing when I fall with popcorn.

[1255] Because that was kind of my main takeaway.

[1256] It was like, of course, men aren't enjoying this because they are in there recognizing they're guilty of a lot of these embarrassing things.

[1257] And then I started thinking about the difference that so much of male comedy is pointing out these ridiculous things women do.

[1258] And women laugh at it too.

[1259] I've been with Kristen where she's laughing hysterically when they're, you know, white girl's Instagram page or, you know, the things that women are able to laugh at them.

[1260] And men are just really, I have a hard time doing it.

[1261] But then we were kind of discovering that it, a lot of it has to do if you're a sibling.

[1262] If you're from a family that razzed each other a lot, and especially if you're a younger member of that family, you get really good at laughing at yourself.

[1263] And in fact, most of my compliments to Delta this weekend were about, she has really grown so much in that she can really laugh at herself now.

[1264] Yeah, that was an uphill battle for a while.

[1265] It was.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] And I would have said that was kind of a Kristen attribute that she had inherited.

[1268] But then again, Kristen didn't, she only had older siblings part -time.

[1269] Yeah, I mean, we talked about this on our last fact chat.

[1270] Yes, ding -d -ding -ding.

[1271] About if you grow up in a teat, we were talking about teasing your parents and stuff when the kids called her boob -swoppy Joes.

[1272] Right.

[1273] And I was saying my family doesn't tease.

[1274] Yeah.

[1275] So, yeah, if you're not used to it, it's embarrassing.

[1276] Yes.

[1277] It's upsetting.

[1278] Yeah, but what a gift you get from being a younger sibling that, like, you just keep, there's no way you'll make it.

[1279] Like, Delta put up a good fight, but finally she's like, why I get with the program.

[1280] Because we were at In -N -Out Burger, and we were all seated at the booth, but Delta was, like, standing at the edge of the table.

[1281] And she was moving her body around wildly and taking bites and saying weird things.

[1282] You know, she's in her own world.

[1283] Yeah.

[1284] And Kristen got up and just started doing the same thing Delta was doing.

[1285] And of course, it looked preposterous to see a human not at the booth.

[1286] And Delta immediately started laughing.

[1287] Yeah.

[1288] And that's when I was like, oh, and this was before Barbie.

[1289] Oh, good.

[1290] But I just, I happened to notice that.

[1291] And I said, you know, I'm so impressed with that you can laugh at yourself now.

[1292] But whatever, it's all very fascinating.

[1293] Yeah.

[1294] And yes, we are embarrassed.

[1295] All of us are embarrassing.

[1296] Yeah.

[1297] Yes.

[1298] The roles we play that we inherit and what we think are going to attract mates is so embarrassing.

[1299] Yeah, it is.

[1300] And fucking hysterical.

[1301] Oh, it's so funny.

[1302] Well, good.

[1303] I'm really glad you liked it and didn't feel attacked.

[1304] I think for some men that it's an attack on men.

[1305] Yeah.

[1306] And I think it's a sending up of men.

[1307] Yeah.

[1308] And I mean, I also think the only whole all poke in the movie, and I, of course, loved it.

[1309] feminism is not about flipping the patriarchy into a matriarchy.

[1310] Right, right.

[1311] It's about equality.

[1312] And so I do think at the end when it's like all the women and then no men, you know, like the joke about the Supreme Court and stuff.

[1313] Yeah.

[1314] It's funny and great and what you need in the movie.

[1315] Yeah, yeah.

[1316] But that's not the goal.

[1317] Right.

[1318] I have a much more bigger global, it's not even a criticism.

[1319] It's just, well, but also you have to acknowledgeism, which is all that stuff works.

[1320] That's what no one wants to true.

[1321] All the stuff being lampooned and made fun of with these tactics of men getting women or attracting women.

[1322] They actually work.

[1323] So that's the really hard part of all this that is the most complicated and nuance, which is men aren't pursuing techniques that don't yield results.

[1324] Um, maybe increasingly.

[1325] Yeah, I think increasingly.

[1326] But everything they've grown up seen is that did produce results.

[1327] The jock does get the pretty girl in high school.

[1328] That's true.

[1329] Yeah.

[1330] So it ignores that really crazy reality, which is like also people can want something, but then not be attracted to that, something they want, which is very curious and confusing.

[1331] Of course, yeah.

[1332] I think it's also, though, that now that women have a lot more age and so.

[1333] and their own power and confidence and abilities that that is changing a lot.

[1334] I think that paradigm where the jock wins is fading out a little bit as women feel like they can make their own decision.

[1335] And they don't need a man. And so there's only so many.

[1336] And I guess I need this one because that's the highest status one deemed by society.

[1337] Like those things are coming apart all over the place.

[1338] And so I think it's potentially changing.

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] It may be.

[1341] It was the only thing I think of is like, well, yeah, you can tell someone to not do all this stuff.

[1342] And then if they don't get a mate because of that, it's not going to work very long.

[1343] I personally think a lot of the things that they're making fun of and like guitar at you and stuff.

[1344] Yeah.

[1345] They're not attractive.

[1346] Like that is something to get over.

[1347] Yeah.

[1348] As a woman, it's like, oh, God, we got to like protect an ego.

[1349] Uh -huh.

[1350] It's about protecting a man's ego.

[1351] Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[1352] But the problem is every boy has grown up where all the rock stars had the most access to every girl.

[1353] So they're like, oh, if I'm a musician.

[1354] Of course.

[1355] And I's got to prove to this girl, I'm a musician like a rock star.

[1356] But that's the difference is the rock star isn't doing that.

[1357] They're not saying, look at me. They're just doing it and they're just elusive and hot.

[1358] Yeah, it's intrinsic.

[1359] Yeah.

[1360] And so it's the trying piece that feels like, ugh.

[1361] Well, good.

[1362] I'm glad you saw it.

[1363] Oh, I loved it.

[1364] God, is it funny?

[1365] Also, Penae had made this observation, but I hadn't seen it yet, so it didn't really make sense to me. But he kept saying over and over again, what that movie demonstrated to him is that anytime you need to, you just make a rule or you make some stakes up real time in the movie, and it works.

[1366] Like, I'll give you a prime example.

[1367] Yeah, yeah.

[1368] She's making the speech about feeling ugly.

[1369] Mm -hmm.

[1370] And it was written sincerely, And she performed it sincerely.

[1371] They, no doubt, I mean, I don't have inside information, but I bet my life that they got into the editing room and they're like, well, this is ridiculous.

[1372] It doesn't work.

[1373] Yeah.

[1374] It can't work.

[1375] She's too beautiful to be saying she feels.

[1376] And they're like, what do we do?

[1377] Do we reshoot it?

[1378] Do we, and they're like, hmm, what else can we do?

[1379] Oh, we can have an announcer come in and just go, we realize this is a bad, like, own it.

[1380] Yeah.

[1381] And then you still get to make the point.

[1382] And now you've got a joke on top of it.

[1383] But like, that's an example.

[1384] Like, all right, we'll just fix it this way.

[1385] Oh, yeah.

[1386] Not in the design, but in the after.

[1387] And there are many moments like that where they just decided to fix things in interesting ways.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] For sure.

[1390] Totally.

[1391] And I was like, oh, I wouldn't have thought that would work.

[1392] Yeah, I loved that moment because everyone is just like walking.

[1393] Yeah, trying to feel bad for this.

[1394] How can we possibly believe this?

[1395] And by the way, I know that's also true.

[1396] Like, I know that beautiful people.

[1397] Oh, Cooper thought it was a bit.

[1398] He's being skewered publicly by getting sexiest man alive.

[1399] Yeah, I know, which is like so hard to believe, but it is.

[1400] It's hard to feel bad for that person.

[1401] It's not hard to feel bad.

[1402] It's not hard to feel bad.

[1403] I think it's hard for people to believe.

[1404] I think they're just like, oh, they're lying.

[1405] Or they don't really, they're being fake.

[1406] False humility.

[1407] Exactly.

[1408] Or they don't really feel like that because how could they?

[1409] But it's internal, you know.

[1410] I believe them, but I'm much more likely to just.

[1411] think in my head, get over it.

[1412] You're hot.

[1413] Yeah.

[1414] Like, yeah, I know you feel that way, but look at the other people, maybe down compare a little bit.

[1415] I don't know what person you're looking at that you think is hotter than you, but.

[1416] Anyway, what else?

[1417] Well, I don't know, man. I'm just riding real high on that Barbie experience.

[1418] I'm going to see it again, I think.

[1419] Wow.

[1420] Yeah, yeah.

[1421] I'm so impressed right now.

[1422] Oh, wow.

[1423] There'll be dudes that are thinking, I think I'm.

[1424] virtue signaling to women right now I bet no you don't do that and in fact I was kind of like hmm how are we gonna because I really was expecting you to come back with some like real pushback oh no and I was prepping in my head for that because I want you to be honest and give you a real opinion yeah of course they had a really really incredibly clever device in the movie that really helped let you see it because we're stuck in the water as we always say of course yeah we are stuck in it and we're unaware of what's normal to you so to start the movie in a different world where it wasn't that way and get to know the characters and like get locked into their point of view so that you could actually see our culture through fresh eyes oh that's interesting was a really clever device and I don't know how conscious they were of it but like the ordering of it is very perfect for allowing you to witness our culture like an anthropologist because you started with a different point of view.

[1425] Yeah.

[1426] So like a lot of things worked really soundly in it that I appreciate it.

[1427] I mean, yeah, when he's realizing it's a patriarchy and he's getting so excited, I mean, I was laughing so fun got bros coming out at the gym and bumping fist and it's like, and some guy like dismisses some woman who asks a question and he's practicing wagging his finger like that.

[1428] Oh my.

[1429] Oh, my God.

[1430] He killed it.

[1431] I mean, you have to give him.

[1432] Yeah, yeah, he was great.

[1433] He was great.

[1434] Well, have you heard Ben Shapiro's whole thing?

[1435] Oh, no. Please tell me. I mean, there's no reason.

[1436] You should just watch it.

[1437] It's insane.

[1438] It's insane.

[1439] Okay.

[1440] Any salient points?

[1441] He's pretty smart dude.

[1442] He is, he is an articulate dude.

[1443] Uh -huh.

[1444] I don't know that I can give him.

[1445] Well, he's really smart.

[1446] He just has wildly different opinions in you, right?

[1447] But to me, it's more like he.

[1448] Yes, he's smart in that he can frame a point well.

[1449] Yeah, yeah.

[1450] But it's all in crazy land.

[1451] So I can't really say it's smart because it's so out there.

[1452] The way he titles the response to it is, this is from his YouTube account, Ben Shapiro destroys the Barbie movie for 43 minutes.

[1453] Destroes.

[1454] Okay.

[1455] Yeah.

[1456] Anywho.

[1457] But.

[1458] You thought I might come in with some Shapiroisms?

[1459] Perhaps.

[1460] So I'm glad he didn't.

[1461] Well, also, I can see two words.

[1462] reflexively people think okay so you're saying you're coming and it's going to be a matriarchy well now it's a fight so now it's like winter's going to take all it's either a matriarchy or a patriarchy so yeah we're probably going to fight to protect right that's what i was fearful of that that a takeaway would be men should have no role in society and then of course men are going to feel attacked and upset and then aggressive because that's a common way of behaving.

[1463] So I'm glad you did not see it that way because it's not what anyone wants.

[1464] So it's not what real feminists want at all.

[1465] I really wanted Alan to be allowed on the Supreme Court.

[1466] Yeah, okay.

[1467] I should let Alan in.

[1468] Sure, sure.

[1469] Let's get them in there.

[1470] I liked Alan.

[1471] Well, that's what's funny.

[1472] So many people are saying Alan's like the perfect guy.

[1473] Yeah, Liz keeps saying that.

[1474] He's not.

[1475] That's the part I'm pointing out.

[1476] Alan is not getting Barbie.

[1477] But here's the other thing that we have.

[1478] Perfect is not a thing.

[1479] It's for each.

[1480] No, no, I agree.

[1481] I'm going on what every woman I've said is Alan's the dream guy in Barbie.

[1482] But maybe for that person, like I think you do have to acknowledge, women don't just want one thing.

[1483] Right.

[1484] And men don't just want one thing.

[1485] I mean, I think we all, like, we're all programmed to believe that.

[1486] It's really not true.

[1487] And for some women, Alan is the perfect guy.

[1488] For some women, he is the perfect guy.

[1489] And he's not for a lot of people as well.

[1490] So we can't just keep adding these broad stroke.

[1491] Acting like we're replacing all the kins with Alan and now everyone will be happy.

[1492] It's like, no, there's, as my father said in the car business, there's an ass for every seat.

[1493] Mm -hmm.

[1494] Yeah.

[1495] I'm trying to think.

[1496] Oh, yeah, okay, so my pen.

[1497] So I've been listening, speaking of another hot blonde Taylor.

[1498] Oh, okay, T .S. I wonder how our episode's gone out, and I wonder how my tailor's...

[1499] Oh, do you leave it all in?

[1500] Yeah.

[1501] Oh, I'm impressed.

[1502] No, don't...

[1503] Let me see if anyone's mad.

[1504] No, I don't want to know.

[1505] I don't want to know.

[1506] Thank you.

[1507] Thank you.

[1508] I have to be honest.

[1509] Yeah, no, I am...

[1510] You thought I was going to remove.

[1511] Should I have?

[1512] No, no. I just know that by the end of it, I could see that you were ruminating on it.

[1513] Oh, I was.

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] I was.

[1516] But, like, that's my reality is I do think I made a mistake.

[1517] Uh -huh.

[1518] But you don't regret it.

[1519] Exactly.

[1520] I think I made a mistake.

[1521] I don't regret it.

[1522] And I have to reconcile those two things, which is a weird thing to have to do.

[1523] Yeah, yeah.

[1524] Welcome to my world.

[1525] Well, I know.

[1526] And that's why I left it because life isn't really that easy.

[1527] And you have to be honest about...

[1528] Well, I admire people who are honest more than I admire people that do the right thing and stand in line.

[1529] Yeah.

[1530] And lie.

[1531] Let's just, we got to say that they fit.

[1532] And like, I left me trying to throw all the other celebrities under the bus.

[1533] That's brave.

[1534] Yeah.

[1535] I find this to be brave and impressive.

[1536] Well...

[1537] The only comment I say someone's not...

[1538] I'm just popping in to say, I'm not mad at Monica.

[1539] Oh.

[1540] I've never, ever in 6 ,000 episodes of this show, been anxious about putting out a fact check especially.

[1541] I got another defense.

[1542] Big time, Swifty here.

[1543] No one would be mad about what Monica did.

[1544] Oh.

[1545] What a forgiving.

[1546] That makes you feel worse.

[1547] What a forgiving community.

[1548] I did tell people they could DM me if they.

[1549] And I'm probably, I'm sure.

[1550] It is the most beautiful.

[1551] That is honestly why.

[1552] If I had done it at like a...

[1553] Van Halen concert.

[1554] Piss someone else off.

[1555] I know.

[1556] I'm not...

[1557] Insert UFC.

[1558] Patriarchy.

[1559] Some patriarchal thing.

[1560] I would have felt no shame.

[1561] I would have been glowing.

[1562] You'd like survival of the fittest.

[1563] Exactly.

[1564] You want this man -eat -man world?

[1565] I just survived.

[1566] I'm fittest.

[1567] I know, but the Swifties are the sweetest.

[1568] So I started this podcast because when I was at the concert, Anthony knew everything.

[1569] He has an encyclopedic memory, but he knew even more than he should have known.

[1570] And I asked why.

[1571] And he said he had listened to this podcast.

[1572] It's called Every Single Album.

[1573] And it's by the Ringer.

[1574] It's on Spotify.

[1575] They break down every single album of Taylor Swift.

[1576] And it's like two hours long each episode.

[1577] It gets so detailed.

[1578] And then I think they do it with some other bands to, like Adele and some other people.

[1579] So I started that and I've just been listening to it so much and it's affecting my psyche.

[1580] And like I had a dream about my childhood because of it.

[1581] Anyway, whatever.

[1582] So it's a very good podcast and I've been really in it.

[1583] But because of that, I started to get very anxious about.

[1584] The Swifties.

[1585] The Swifties.

[1586] Yeah, they're...

[1587] They're an extreme group.

[1588] I mean, I want to...

[1589] I'm like gonna be...

[1590] I am one.

[1591] Okay, great.

[1592] I'm gonna declare it.

[1593] Great.

[1594] I'm a Barbie.

[1595] So who knows?

[1596] Maybe Swiftie's next.

[1597] Yeah.

[1598] Also, I think you would really...

[1599] If you deep dove, you would really appreciate her songwriting.

[1600] Like, if you, like, read her lyrics.

[1601] Uh -huh.

[1602] She's an impeccable songwriter.

[1603] Clearly.

[1604] The data's in.

[1605] Right, but...

[1606] The evidence is there.

[1607] Yeah.

[1608] It's true.

[1609] There's no two ways about it.

[1610] No, I have a tremendous amount of respect for her, obviously.

[1611] I know you do.

[1612] I know you do.

[1613] Like, who wouldn't it?

[1614] I'm not unique in that.

[1615] I had early triggers, which I've talked about in here a bunch, which is packaging.

[1616] And I've always identified with the greasers.

[1617] She seems like a soche to me. I thought Miley Cyrus took it on the chin, and she was...

[1618] celebrated by moms.

[1619] That was my initial, that's not her fault.

[1620] That was like America and moms and dad's fault.

[1621] Yes, yes.

[1622] Because I thought about that as I was listening, because we've talked about that a lot on here, how you, yeah, you don't like that she's placed in a wholesome category and Miley is not.

[1623] Yeah.

[1624] And I guess it was all out of defense of Miley.

[1625] Yeah, which I get.

[1626] And they were pitted against each other at that time.

[1627] But she, it's just nothing to do with her.

[1628] Like she's never.

[1629] done that.

[1630] She writes songs about sex and sexual activity.

[1631] That one about me, yeah.

[1632] That one song about me. You can't, you can't not say it.

[1633] It's, well, I don't know how long she's going to pretend it's not about me. I'm, I have that as a little bit of a sense.

[1634] Wildest dreams is the, is the song you're claiming.

[1635] Um, and that goes of the handsome part.

[1636] Just the dull part and the he's bad.

[1637] This would be clear.

[1638] she was being very kind with calling me handsome i think it just rhymed with something to be honest he's so tall and she was like it's got to be something as hell he's so tall and fast as hell that made sense but there's not enough syllables in this is like what's it what's to hand handsome and his house okay i'll just call him handsome he's so tall and handsome is hell he's so bad but he does it so well yeah that's the part yeah That's the part.

[1639] Um, yeah.

[1640] It's, she's got some killers.

[1641] I really am.

[1642] I really am.

[1643] Yeah, you're just rolling around in it.

[1644] It's lovely.

[1645] Any posters you had in your house?

[1646] No, I'm too decorative at this point for posters.

[1647] Your style is.

[1648] Yeah, we've outgrown it.

[1649] Maybe we can find something that's artistic.

[1650] I commission a painting.

[1651] Oh my God, that'd be cool.

[1652] By Monsour, Monsour.

[1653] And Monsour.

[1654] And Monsour.

[1655] All right, let's get into some facts.

[1656] Unless there's, I'm trying to think, is there anything else from the weekend?

[1657] The weekend.

[1658] I slept pretty much all day on Saturday.

[1659] You did?

[1660] Because you were feeling physically.

[1661] Yeah, I mean, I was fighting a bug last week.

[1662] So I think maybe that was just like the tail end of it.

[1663] Uh -huh.

[1664] What's all day on Saturday mean?

[1665] So I accidentally listened to this podcast really late.

[1666] on Friday.

[1667] Oh, yeah.

[1668] And it was weird because it was 10, and I was wide awake.

[1669] And shockingly said, I even thought, I was like, why am I so alert?

[1670] It's not like I drank too much coffee.

[1671] I don't know what happened.

[1672] So I stayed up late, like two -ish.

[1673] Oh, what were you consuming?

[1674] The podcast.

[1675] Oh, the podcast.

[1676] Yeah, that makes sense.

[1677] And then I woke up at 8 .30.

[1678] and then I kind of just like you know through some tantrums in my bed rolled around a little bit made some tea and then didn't drink thrashed yeah and then I had acupuncture at 11 I wanted to cancel so bad I didn't because I'm going to try to freeze yeah to get my eggs up to get the quality up in the quantity and the quantity yeah the quantity is a little trickier but yeah and I'm ovulating I realized so I had to go I felt like oh no this is probably like peak time I'm supposed to go yeah I force myself to go I really how honest I really I really I really don't like going you hate acupuncture but i don't hate the actual acupuncture but i like resent it yeah i resent that i am doing this that i have to go you have to do yes yes so i had acupuncture then i came home and at like from 1230 to 1 30 i napped okay then i woke up for lunch then at 2 .15 i went back to sleep okay after your lunch yeah okay until 5 Whoa.

[1679] What do we do now?

[1680] Yeah.

[1681] You're like, well, I got to go back to bed in five hours?

[1682] Yeah.

[1683] And then I was nervous I had started the cycle over.

[1684] But I was able to go to bed around 11.

[1685] That's good.

[1686] Yeah.

[1687] I similarly, I've watched so many documentaries in the last few days.

[1688] I can't even believe how many I've watched.

[1689] And all of them I've liked.

[1690] Wow, which ones?

[1691] Oscar De La Hoya one's incredible.

[1692] Then two untolds are incredible.

[1693] The Jake Paul one.

[1694] Started it.

[1695] You started it.

[1696] Okay.

[1697] And then the Johnny Mansell one that just came out is incredible.

[1698] I knew nothing about that football player.

[1699] Incredible.

[1700] Oh, then the Sean White one with the family.

[1701] Oh.

[1702] Which is great.

[1703] Okay.

[1704] Really, really good.

[1705] God, is he?

[1706] I love him.

[1707] I know.

[1708] But like, even having interviewed him and learning us to see all the footage of it, it's just five Olympics.

[1709] Yeah, that's crazy.

[1710] Breaking his face in half and then keep going.

[1711] Like, being the best scapeer.

[1712] order in the world and the best nor it's impossible yeah so impressive check that episode out if you haven't heard it yes very good it's a really good one he is such a great interview yes interviewee then i started one last night that's bonkers it's called telemarketers it's about this enormous telemarketing company in oh seven that did all these fundraisers for like police departments and fire departments and they kept 90 % of the money they raised and they raise so much money and they let them do whatever they wanted so people were smoking pot in there drinking beer snorting heroin oh my god dance parties and this guy was like it was so wild i decided to start filming it in 2007 and it's completely unhinged wow wow yeah that's i had to force myself to turn it off last like i'm i'm gonna stay up until two in the morning watching this okay this i don't know why that well no heroin it's like why did i just think of this but remember on here why actually it was on and Armchair Anonymous, you brought up Trank.

[1713] Oh, yeah, the new tranquilizer.

[1714] The new drug that you were telling me about, you had saw something on it, and it was really so upsetting.

[1715] It was footage of a street in, I think, Philadelphia.

[1716] Yes, and all these people are just bent over, like fully bent over.

[1717] Like they've been frozen with a gray gun.

[1718] Yes, and I ended up seeing that picture, and it is so.

[1719] Oh, yeah, zombie apocalypse.

[1720] Yes, it is so sad and scary and darring.

[1721] And the other day I meant to tell you, I was in Pasadena and I was driving to Houston's.

[1722] And someone was on it walking across the street, fully bent over like that.

[1723] Really?

[1724] Yes.

[1725] It was so upsetting.

[1726] I just read an article within the last week about how Oregon's drug experiment's going.

[1727] What is their drug experiment?

[1728] Well, they decriminalize everything, right?

[1729] I mean, everything.

[1730] You can have coke, heroin, all of it.

[1731] Wow.

[1732] You get maybe a $100 fee at some point for some stuff.

[1733] Okay.

[1734] But.

[1735] Oh, fine.

[1736] Yeah, exactly.

[1737] Oh.

[1738] And it was, in theory, modeled after Spain's really successful attempt at this decriminalization process.

[1739] But the article was about that they didn't have any of them the policies in place that Spain did to funnel people into treatment.

[1740] get them sober and in fact the spain results haven't really been replicatable anywhere really yeah like it seems to be working there but it does not seem to be working anywhere else their OD deaths have just gone up every metric you would measure success or failure with the drug epidemic it's it's worse and it's interesting because you know as a kid I grew up as kind of wildly progressive and you know you're looking at Amsterdam and like well they have weed and everything's cool there and and weed has proven to be fine we're in the states it's got it it's not a big deal yeah but now seeing the results of it yeah and having walked around san francisco where everyone's just dealing crack out in public i think i uh i would be no longer in favor of yeah i'm not supportive it's i don't think it's in practice in theory yes in practice i don't think so yeah not here maybe in a small little community where you can really fund the outreach and fund all the positive stuff, but...

[1741] I just saw an article today, a New York Times article, saying in California prisons, they're going to start treating drug addiction.

[1742] Oh.

[1743] Within the prison.

[1744] Oh, good.

[1745] Which I think is amazing.

[1746] Yeah, I have to imagine a huge percentage of people that end up there did so as a result of addiction.

[1747] Yeah.

[1748] Okay.

[1749] Here we are.

[1750] So this is for Wendy.

[1751] Vendiv Mogul.

[1752] Yes, Wendy.

[1753] Reminder.

[1754] Her show's out.

[1755] Listen to Nurture versus Nurture.

[1756] Yes, season two.

[1757] I love that show and I don't have kids and it's still just really fascinating to hear parents struggling with the most important thing in their life, their kids.

[1758] Yeah.

[1759] It's good.

[1760] It's really good.

[1761] Have you found yourself repeating things you learned in this week?

[1762] Yes.

[1763] Mainly what I've repeated so many times is that women divorce.

[1764] more than men.

[1765] Uh -huh.

[1766] That's one of them I have, and that the girls break up with the boys in school more often.

[1767] And there's a few of them that I found myself.

[1768] Plung to.

[1769] Yeah, yeah.

[1770] There was fun tidbits in that.

[1771] She's full of them.

[1772] She really is.

[1773] She knows her shit.

[1774] She does.

[1775] Okay.

[1776] Now, one thing she also said that I was like, can that possibly be true?

[1777] Was that older moms have more girls?

[1778] Oh, right.

[1779] And it's true.

[1780] I repeated that.

[1781] That's another one of the ones I repeated.

[1782] You're allowed to.

[1783] Okay.

[1784] It says two -thirds of children born to parents over 40 are girls.

[1785] Two -thirds of children born to parents over 40 are girls.

[1786] And that's in psychology today.

[1787] Trusted brand.

[1788] Very trusted.

[1789] Much more than psychology tomorrow.

[1790] Or definitely psychology yesterday.

[1791] No, you know.

[1792] Oh, my God.

[1793] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1794] It's not to be trusted.

[1795] You want me to read a little bit of this psychology today?

[1796] Yeah, why not?

[1797] Then maybe you can do one of Taylor's Commencements.

[1798] Oh, I'd love to.

[1799] We should definitely revisit that now, and I'm so sussing.

[1800] I can only imagine what happened now.

[1801] You might cry during it.

[1802] I was just thinking you're definitely going to cry if you watch that.

[1803] I had a thought when I heard that.

[1804] Okay.

[1805] Which is, assuming we're still responding to how we lived for 99 % of it, of the time we lived on planet earth.

[1806] And most of the hunting and gathering societies we witnessed, the vast majority are patriarchal.

[1807] And when the woman leaves, typically the woman has to leave the tribe and go to another tribe where they marry a man and become a part of that family.

[1808] So given that your own survival was dependent on having a son around to provide for you, knowing your firstborn is going to, If it's a girl is going to leave and join another tribe, you won't benefit from having a female first, whereas you would always benefit from having a male.

[1809] It also, it is in the explanation of why some indigenous populations in Alaska, the Inuit, the Nupi, had practiced infanticide because their societally, there is no gathering.

[1810] There's only hunting and only boys hunted.

[1811] So if you didn't have a son, you were going to starve.

[1812] Right.

[1813] So that was the explanation for why they had that practice.

[1814] So I could see if it's induced after the fact, you could see where there might biologically or evolutionarily that could have happened somehow where your survival's higher if you have a boy first and a girl second.

[1815] But then how would this explain?

[1816] How does that relate?

[1817] Because as you get older, presumably you've already had boys.

[1818] Oh.

[1819] So in the latter stage, you're having more girls because you would survive.

[1820] And you don't think the body would just know it's your firstborn?

[1821] Your body would know.

[1822] Yeah, but let's just say, because the eggs are already there from the get.

[1823] Yeah.

[1824] Now, how they fall out, I don't know if they fall out completely randomized or if there's an order to the way they fall out.

[1825] But if there was an order of the way they were released, and sure, it wanted to front load the eggs.

[1826] at the bottom to be male and backload them to be female that could provide a benefit for longevity.

[1827] But I don't know how the egg, I don't know how it works enough.

[1828] Yeah.

[1829] But that was my thought.

[1830] It's just like, oh, well, historically, you did want a boy first.

[1831] Yeah, interesting.

[1832] Okay, let me, hold on.

[1833] Let's see what there.

[1834] Okay, let me read a little bit more.

[1835] Parental investment is much more crucial for the future reproductive success of sons than for that of daughters.

[1836] Sons' reproductive success largely hinges on the status and resources that they inherit from their parents, particularly their fathers.

[1837] This is why the presence of sons deters divorce, whoa, and the departure of the father from the family.

[1838] Sons, therefore, need parents to invest in them to make sure that they inherit the status and the resources of the family.

[1839] In sharp contrast, daughters' future reproductive success is largely determined by their youth and physical attractiveness.

[1840] Once they are conceived with particular genes that influence their physical attractiveness, there is very little that parents can do to increase their daughter's future reproductive success beyond keeping them alive and healthy.

[1841] There's absolutely nothing that parents can do to affect the progression of time that determines the daughter's age, nor is there anything they can do after the conception to influence the daughter's physical appearance.

[1842] Once again, beyond keeping them healthy.

[1843] That's a neat theory as well.

[1844] The problem with the older parents, of course, is that they're more likely to die sooner.

[1845] If the parents die before the children reach sexual maturity, it will have a greater negative impact on sons' future reproductive success than on daughters.

[1846] This may be one evolutionary ultimate reason why older parents are more likely not daughters.

[1847] Interesting.

[1848] Not too distant from my thought.

[1849] Yeah, it's not.

[1850] It's not.

[1851] Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[1852] We are so complicated.

[1853] I know.

[1854] I don't begin to understand.

[1855] I know.

[1856] It's just really weird that the design for all that lays within this little invisible strand of DNA.

[1857] It's crazy.

[1858] Yeah.

[1859] Okay.

[1860] It is a Chinese word.

[1861] She couldn't remember 100 % if it was Chinese.

[1862] It is loud tongue, which means old sames.

[1863] Old sames.

[1864] It is very, very sweet.

[1865] Okay.

[1866] Most competitive military branch.

[1867] Green berets.

[1868] Hmm.

[1869] Navy SEals will not like that answer.

[1870] Well.

[1871] How do they say that?

[1872] Army green berets, special forces.

[1873] Army green berets, okay.

[1874] Are among the most elite groups in the world.

[1875] they have as much street credit as numbered seals and force recon, depending on who's doing the talking.

[1876] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1877] Look, they're the best of the best of two different branches of the military.

[1878] Yeah.

[1879] Navy and Army.

[1880] And so, of course, they're going to both claim to be the best.

[1881] I don't want to be up against either.

[1882] Me either.

[1883] No. Okay, I realize why I said Black Hawk.

[1884] Because you were thinking of Black Ops?

[1885] No, well, that's what we thought.

[1886] Oh, okay.

[1887] But isn't Black Hawk is that military copter?

[1888] A Black Hawk is a helicopter.

[1889] Yeah.

[1890] Yes, yes.

[1891] So that's why.

[1892] Okay, yeah, sure.

[1893] That's in their deal.

[1894] It's still connected to the military.

[1895] Yeah, it's up on the combat vehicles of the U .S. military poster that flies proudly in our...

[1896] It's if, like, you know, in kids, they start giving those like what doesn't belong pictures.

[1897] There's like a carrot, an apple, a two by four, and a celery.

[1898] Yeah Definitely in this space This attic This attic That thing is not like the same Yes you have a military poster in here Yeah All the vehicles in the U .S. military Yes But it's good because a lot of people Stop and talk about that I gotta say more people have mentioned That than any other thing Well no the dog and baby me Baby you And that little clipping Oh and the clipping of us weekly Although I feel like I most Well hold on the I think I most often draw people's attention to that thing No some people are like Is that real?

[1899] Before you come in like They're walking around when I'm sitting here and they're like That's not great But people mention the Military Vehicle poster More than they mentioned the T -Rex Which is crazy Older men that noticed that one Absolutely yeah It's a great great poster I recommend everyone get one in their home.

[1900] It's a conversation starter.

[1901] It doesn't mean you're pro -war.

[1902] It just means you're enamored with engineering as I am.

[1903] Mm -hmm.

[1904] I know.

[1905] I know you are.

[1906] Okay.

[1907] You said that L .A. is the safest place to be in the country.

[1908] Mm -hmm.

[1909] So I have a list.

[1910] Okay, great.

[1911] Of safest cities in America.

[1912] This is January 2023, U .S. News.

[1913] U .S. News.

[1914] Trusted.

[1915] They do the college thing?

[1916] U .S. News and reports.

[1917] Something like that.

[1918] Yeah, I don't know.

[1919] Number one, do I'm going to go down or up?

[1920] My first question is, are they determining it on cases of homicide per 10 ,000?

[1921] They're factoring in like, you know, whether you drink coffee or not and you live to, I just want to be clear about what the criteria that they're.

[1922] Okay, let me see.

[1923] The analysis compared 182 cities based on 42 indicators of safety.

[1924] 42 indicators of safety.

[1925] Among the metrics analyzed for the report are the number of traffic fatalities, hate crimes, percentage of the population with insurance, emergency savings.

[1926] Yeah, okay, it's a lot of stuff.

[1927] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1928] So I just want to be clear.

[1929] I was only claiming on your homicide rate per 10 ,000 in L .A. is like among the tiniest in the country.

[1930] Okay, hold on.

[1931] But I would be interested to hear that list.

[1932] Okay, let's do both lists.

[1933] 42 comprehensive.

[1934] Okay, I'm also going to look at murder rate by city.

[1935] By city, yeah.

[1936] Oh, that's good.

[1937] Murder, that's a juicy search.

[1938] I know.

[1939] Okay, but let's do the other one first.

[1940] Yes, yes, 42 metrics.

[1941] 42 metrics.

[1942] Number 10 is Lewiston, Maine.

[1943] Okay.

[1944] Never heard of it.

[1945] No disrespect for Lewiston.

[1946] Yeah, it's like they have a, they're small, so.

[1947] You know, they all have insurance and stuff, healthy vegetables.

[1948] Number nine, Raleigh, North Carolina.

[1949] Oh, ding, ding, ding.

[1950] Which is also, like, I know someone who got murdered there.

[1951] Number eight, Burlington, Vermont.

[1952] Mm -hmm.

[1953] Okay.

[1954] Seven, Gilbert, Arizona.

[1955] Okay.

[1956] I don't remember these cities, though.

[1957] Well, it's not fair, because they are, just because we live in, like, a very popular one.

[1958] Uh -huh.

[1959] Okay, six is young.

[1960] Onkers, New York.

[1961] Okay.

[1962] Five is Warwick, Rhode Island.

[1963] Let's just say, how about this?

[1964] This is a less offensive way to say it.

[1965] None of these places have a sports team.

[1966] Number four is Portland, Maine.

[1967] Does that have a sports?

[1968] Not like a national.

[1969] Triple A hockey team.

[1970] Yeah, probably.

[1971] Okay, well, that's a big sport, as we know.

[1972] Yeah.

[1973] Hockey from our other list.

[1974] But it's not in NHL.

[1975] No, you're right.

[1976] Okay, three Laredo, Texas.

[1977] Of course.

[1978] Two, Nashua, New Hampshire.

[1979] Nashua, New Hampshire?

[1980] Yep.

[1981] And then number one is Columbia, Maryland.

[1982] Okay.

[1983] Now, let's say that you didn't love that.

[1984] Well, I just, I was, you could have also said today's segment is I'm going to teach you about 10 towns in America you had never heard of.

[1985] Okay.

[1986] We can open up our minds.

[1987] Okay.

[1988] Okay.

[1989] This is the highest murder rate.

[1990] So let's just see if L .A. is on there.

[1991] Murders per 100 ,000 people.

[1992] There we go.

[1993] Can I guess number one?

[1994] Chicago.

[1995] No. Norlands.

[1996] No. What is it?

[1997] St. Louis.

[1998] Oh, bummer.

[1999] I know.

[2000] Sorry St. Louis.

[2001] Okay.

[2002] I mean, this is a depressing list, but here we go.

[2003] Okay, one St. Louis.

[2004] Two Baltimore.

[2005] Three New Orleans.

[2006] Norlands.

[2007] Four?

[2008] Chicago.

[2009] Yay.

[2010] Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[2011] We made it.

[2012] We've fallen.

[2013] We used to be number one.

[2014] Number five, Cleveland.

[2015] Okay.

[2016] Six, Las Vegas.

[2017] Oh, sure.

[2018] Seven, Kansas City.

[2019] A, okay.

[2020] Eight Memphis.

[2021] Oh.

[2022] Nine, Newark.

[2023] Oh.

[2024] Ten, Chicago.

[2025] Oh.

[2026] That's impressive that we're only ten.

[2027] I know.

[2028] It's all you hear about is the murder.

[2029] Ten, exactly.

[2030] They make it out.

[2031] They talk about it.

[2032] It should be one.

[2033] Yeah.

[2034] They have a bad publicist.

[2035] Yeah.

[2036] Yeah.

[2037] Well, it's also racism.

[2038] Okay.

[2039] 11 Cincinnati, 12, Philadelphia, 13 Milwaukee, 14 Tulsa, 15 Pittsburgh, 16 Indianapolis, 17 Louisville, Kentucky, Louisville, Louisville, Louisville, 18 Oakland, California, 19, Washington, D .C., 1E, Atlanta.

[2040] Uh -oh, all three of our hometowns made it.

[2041] They did, they sure did, and I'm not seeing in a Los Angeles on that list.

[2042] Very safe place.

[2043] And I'm happy to hear it.

[2044] Me too, me too.

[2045] Oh, this other list has Memphis is number one and Detroit is number two.

[2046] Oh, there we go, Detroit.

[2047] I see you.

[2048] But the first one was on World Population Review and I trust that.

[2049] Well, anyway, that's, I like that.

[2050] We're not on top 20.

[2051] No, we're at, we're very, very low.

[2052] Yeah, and they do try to make it out to be like so dangerous.

[2053] And we need more crime bills and more crime spending.

[2054] Which is why I was so scared to walk down the street.

[2055] Yeah, they've got us all hype.

[2056] They did.

[2057] Okay.

[2058] You also said that if you live on a farm that you're four times more likely to die.

[2059] Uh -huh.

[2060] Of an accidental death.

[2061] Well, okay.

[2062] There is a scientific American article.

[2063] I must be where I got at.

[2064] I have so many trusted brands today.

[2065] Yeah.

[2066] It's really a who's who of trusted brands today.

[2067] Sentient animals.

[2068] Sentientan animals .org.

[2069] Okay.

[2070] People in rural areas die at higher rates than those on urban areas.

[2071] Scientific American says, deaths from heart disease, cancer, and COVID are all higher in rural areas than urban ones in the U .S. And the gap is only widening.

[2072] So that's one thing.

[2073] And then you get into the farm accidents.

[2074] Right.

[2075] I didn't get into that.

[2076] There are plenty.

[2077] I thought, I didn't actually know.

[2078] I thought you were.

[2079] just saying that as like farms as a synonym for rural areas oh well i was using as a synonym for rural but i think people are getting way more like x -and -oldess with machinery even look at our friend uh jeremy renner yeah he's operating that you know huge snow machine up there and he you know when you're operating that heavy equipment you're at risk yes and i love heavy equipment you're at risk I'm at risk.

[2080] Oh, God.

[2081] I'm of a lot of those activities.

[2082] I don't like that.

[2083] Well, okay.

[2084] Was it Johns Hopkins study where they gave therapy to parents in order to help their kids?

[2085] It's Yale.

[2086] Oh, yeah.

[2087] Sorry to deprive you of that.

[2088] Okay, I have some, like, yucky facts I don't like.

[2089] But we talked about school shootings.

[2090] Okay.

[2091] It was, like, bad timing to talk about this because, like, school's back.

[2092] Yeah, yeah, that is.

[2093] That is.

[2094] But we...

[2095] But we...

[2096] But we were.

[2097] I think she and I at least were trying to have a calming impact If you look at the numbers There's literally Several hundred things you should be worried about Before you're worried about that one If you're just going in order of Likelihood So there were 51 school shootings in 2022 That resulted in injuries or death The most in a single year So that's 51 school shootings And And I also looked up how many kids are enrolled in school, 49 .5 million students.

[2098] Okay.

[2099] So 51 divided by 49 .5 million, it's going to be, I mean, 0 .00, it's going to be 60.

[2100] Yeah, a lot of 0 ,000 ,000, 012.

[2101] But is that right, or should we do how many schools?

[2102] Yeah, schools maybe.

[2103] Well, no, because it's one person.

[2104] Yeah, we'll say one per, which could be wrong.

[2105] But regardless, here's what people I think are afraid of when you say, don't worry about it.

[2106] Two things are true.

[2107] We should be trying to stop this.

[2108] Yeah, yeah.

[2109] And people, I think, believe there's a prerequisite level of fear that has to be present to motivate us to change this.

[2110] Right.

[2111] So if they hear us saying your kids are way more likely to get struck by lightning, you should have that.

[2112] the same categories as far as how much daily fear you're caring about it.

[2113] Yeah.

[2114] That's true.

[2115] And it's not saying we shouldn't try to fix it.

[2116] For sure.

[2117] Right.

[2118] I mean, there should be zero.

[2119] Like, there's no, there is absolutely no reason.

[2120] Well, one you can fix in one of you.

[2121] Like, you can't stop lightning.

[2122] Well, sure, you could not send your kids out when there's lightning.

[2123] Yeah.

[2124] You know?

[2125] Well, yeah.

[2126] Just mean there's more of a control.

[2127] Yeah, yeah.

[2128] More control.

[2129] feels way inflict well even what i just said yeah at least when it's lightning out you can see it and you know not to send your kids out to play baseball but you that's and but again that's why it's an outsized fear it is outsized and you're treating it as something that has a much higher probability than it does but it's because it's so unpredictable and it's the most catastrophic yeah it's just the worst thing that could possibly ever happen was we're sorry am i like i'm like i'm Maybe the lightning people, the lightning commission will be upset with me, but it's much worse.

[2130] If you lose your child in a car accident, it's not any better.

[2131] I don't think it's any better.

[2132] God, how can we even have this conversation?

[2133] Well, I just think there's nothing, I think it's like nothing goes faster than the speed of light.

[2134] I think there's like a nadir of suffering, and that is losing a child.

[2135] Yes.

[2136] And I don't think the version of how the child was lost does anything to take away the hole that is left behind by a dead child.

[2137] That's, I'm sure, yeah.

[2138] Though, like, it's that thing that we talked about a little bit with Paul Bloom, betrayal bias.

[2139] Betrayal bias is very real where if it is natural.

[2140] Yeah.

[2141] It's, yeah, the suffering is, I'm sure, the same.

[2142] But the sense of injustice and the sense of this shouldn't have happened might be different depending on the way it happened.

[2143] But it's just that.

[2144] It's a bias.

[2145] Like, it shouldn't happen anyway.

[2146] No. You know, there's no version of your child dying where you're like, well, that's how it should have been.

[2147] Never.

[2148] You're never ever going to think that.

[2149] If it's a disease or a car accident.

[2150] There's probably some that feel worse, though, like if a neglectful parent has a child drowned.

[2151] That's true.

[2152] I think you could probably carry more personal guilt and responsibility for it.

[2153] Well, same with a car accident.

[2154] Or even, yeah.

[2155] Oh, it's so bad.

[2156] I hate this conversation.

[2157] Yeah, it's really the worst thing.

[2158] I think on planet Earth.

[2159] Oh, for sure.

[2160] What else could be worse?

[2161] You could rate me and torture me a million times.

[2162] Yeah.

[2163] Yeah, be happy to take that option.

[2164] Ugh.

[2165] Listen to nurture versus nurture.

[2166] Ooh, we did not do a great.

[2167] Well, you really.

[2168] Every Tuesday.

[2169] Really shit the bed on that.

[2170] It's not about that at all.

[2171] No, even that's not about that.

[2172] No, it's about.

[2173] Oh, there's some sad.

[2174] Flourishing and growing.

[2175] Yeah, life is complicated.

[2176] Yeah, that's it.

[2177] That's that?

[2178] Mm -hmm.

[2179] Okay.

[2180] Maybe you should talk about something light.

[2181] Yeah, let's say any...

[2182] Bolognais.

[2183] I made you Bolognais.

[2184] I cannot wait to try it.

[2185] I finally brought it.

[2186] I don't think it's the best one.

[2187] I don't think, you know, it's not like, oh, I finally did it so now I can share it.

[2188] I just, it was time.

[2189] I do have to say, you've been so upset.

[2190] I'm going to handle this correctly.

[2191] Okay.

[2192] But there is a slight element to this, which is like I already do a bolognese.

[2193] It's kind of my signature thing.

[2194] And now if you come along and you do a bolognais, it's better than mine.

[2195] Well, can't.

[2196] Yet I'm rooting for you because you're my friend, right?

[2197] So I want it to be great because for you.

[2198] Okay.

[2199] But I also might not have a thing anymore.

[2200] That's not true.

[2201] They're two different things.

[2202] And also then I'm taking it back.

[2203] No, you're not.

[2204] You're over my dead pot?

[2205] I brought it.

[2206] I'm not going to deny myself this delicious meal just to save my own ego and pride.

[2207] I brought it because you've been complaining like crazy.

[2208] It is just funny that the first thing you finally did bring me was bowling egg.

[2209] That's the thing you've been upset about.

[2210] That's the thing.

[2211] Well, no, you made meatballs.

[2212] She brought you brownies, too.

[2213] I did, but you refused to eat those.

[2214] I can't eat those.

[2215] What did you think of the brownies, yeah?

[2216] I kick it.

[2217] Matt had the best feedback.

[2218] He said they were really light but moist.

[2219] Yeah, I would echo that, but it sounds weird.

[2220] Yeah.

[2221] It seems to be true exclusive.

[2222] But they're like, what it really is is they're dense but light.

[2223] Yeah, they're dense but light.

[2224] It's weird.

[2225] Yeah, it's weird.

[2226] It is.

[2227] It was not an easy brownie recipe.

[2228] It wasn't.

[2229] I had to browned.

[2230] I had to brown butter and then make a chocolate butter.

[2231] Yeah, they're good.

[2232] No wonder they're moyes.

[2233] Who's the recipe from?

[2234] It's from...

[2235] Moise .org.

[2236] From sentient animals, Donald.

[2237] What if they had brownie recipes?

[2238] Top brownie recipes from sentient animals.

[2239] It's Della Parks.

[2240] And the cookbook is called Brave Tart.

[2241] It's really good.

[2242] Oh, wonderful.

[2243] Oh, I know one positive thing we can go on on.

[2244] I want to thank all the lovely armed cherries who went and ordered a six -pack or a 12 -pack of Ted Seeger's.

[2245] I don't know if any.

[2246] Anyone who follows Aaron saw his time -lapse video of him fulfilling those orders.

[2247] I saw.

[2248] Aaron and Aaron worked tireless, tirelessly all weekend to fill the orders.

[2249] Oh, one more fact.

[2250] It is M -A -O because it's monoamine oxidase.

[2251] M -A -O.

[2252] I think originally some five episodes ago, I said M -O -A -A.

[2253] Oh, I mean, you've been saying M -A -O your whole life.

[2254] Then maybe you switched it once.

[2255] Okay, but it is M -A -O.

[2256] Yeah.

[2257] It's connected to your neurotransmitters.

[2258] Hmm.

[2259] It says a low -activity form of the M -A -O -A gene has been linked to increased levels of aggression and violence.

[2260] Mm -hmm.

[2261] Mm -hmm.

[2262] Interesting.

[2263] Interesting.

[2264] Get your M -A -O checked.

[2265] Like your oil.

[2266] Dipstick.

[2267] Check the oil.

[2268] All right.

[2269] Well, that's it.

[2270] Love you.

[2271] Love you.

[2272] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2273] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2274] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.