Megan Phelps-Roper

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, expert, son, expert.

[1] I'm Dan Rather, I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[2] Hello.

[3] Hello, Lily Padman.

[4] Good gloomy morning to you.

[5] Good gloomy morning to you.

[6] It's June gloom, we're in the thick of it.

[7] Yes, June gloom, apex gloom.

[8] Hasn't been sunny in four years.

[9] Yeah, but we're getting through.

[10] We have multiple times over the last three or four months recommended the witch trials of J .K. Rowling podcast.

[11] We're obsessed with it.

[12] I've been recommending everyone listen to it.

[13] And we have on today the creator and the journalist behind that podcast.

[14] Her name is Megan Phelps Roper.

[15] And she also, interestingly, was a member as a child of Westboro Baptist and left that church.

[16] That's right.

[17] Making her very capable of telling this story.

[18] Yes, which she told beautifully.

[19] in her memoir called Unfollow.

[20] So everyone should check out Unfollow as well.

[21] You're going to fall in love with her as everyone does.

[22] She's so thoughtful.

[23] Exceedingly thoughtful.

[24] We loved getting to talk to her.

[25] And again, one more gentle nudge to check out the Witch Trials of J .K. Rowling.

[26] It's so wonderfully done.

[27] Please enjoy Megan Phelps Roper.

[28] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[29] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[30] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[31] He's an opportunity.

[32] Nice to meet you.

[33] Where did you fly from?

[34] From Sioux Falls.

[35] I live in a really tiny town in South Dakota.

[36] We spent a couple weeks in North Dakota last summer.

[37] We were on the Missouri River.

[38] We were like in a field in the family bus, riding dirt bikes and catching frogs.

[39] Very nice.

[40] For two weeks.

[41] It was incredible.

[42] I didn't do a lot of frog catching, but my daughters did a tremendous amount.

[43] How old are your daughters now?

[44] Eight and ten.

[45] Oh, nice.

[46] What do you have?

[47] I have a little girl who's four and a half.

[48] Right.

[49] And a seven -month -old boy?

[50] Yes.

[51] Is he here?

[52] He was going to be here, and then the Uber driver could not bring him.

[53] And also, I'm so sorry, I'm late.

[54] We were in Norway last week and then got home on Central Time, and then we were in Mountain Time yesterday.

[55] And, like, all of my notices said 1 p .m. And I was like, okay, well.

[56] And then I looked at my phone 20 minutes ago, and it was like, in one minute.

[57] I was like, oh, what?

[58] Excuse me. No worries.

[59] What was happening in Norway?

[60] There was this media festival, and they wanted to talk about witch trials.

[61] And both Andy Mills, who's essentially the director of our podcast, he and I are both huge fans of Norway.

[62] I got married there.

[63] My husband's family is from there.

[64] They immigrated from.

[65] So we got married, like, right by the farm where his surname comes from.

[66] No kidding.

[67] That explains when I saw the names of your children's, they all had.

[68] Letters I don't recognize.

[69] There were zeros of lines.

[70] Yes.

[71] What is that?

[72] It's a Norwegian letter.

[73] We looked it up at the time.

[74] It's like it's literally called O with stroke.

[75] So Solvi.

[76] Solve is how you say it.

[77] Yeah.

[78] We just call her Solvi.

[79] Oh, okay.

[80] It means strength of the sun.

[81] Okay.

[82] So to bring everyone up to speed, Monica and I both listened to the witch trials of J .K. Rowling.

[83] A friend of mine suggested it.

[84] Funny enough, a gay friend of mine.

[85] And he said, don't tell anyone I suggest this.

[86] That was an interesting setup for it, which got me intrigued.

[87] And then, of course, I told Monica like, oh, it's about J .K. Rowling.

[88] And Monica's the biggest.

[89] Well, that's a huge claim.

[90] There's a lot of very militant.

[91] But I love the books.

[92] So I don't think I've listened to a podcast that quickly.

[93] I was in the sauna.

[94] I had to figure how to listen to it inside there.

[95] And no matter where I was at, I was listening to it.

[96] And for a lot of reasons, I think it's incredible.

[97] But maybe just right out of the gates, I don't know.

[98] anything about J .K. Rowling.

[99] I'm too old to have been a hairy pie.

[100] I saw the movies maybe.

[101] And then, of course, I'm not living underground.

[102] So I know that there's been a humongous backlash against her in the last few years over tweets that truthfully, I never even heard, right?

[103] Which might be common.

[104] I imagine is semi -common.

[105] Yeah.

[106] And so I was captivated initially by her own personal story, which I knew nothing about.

[107] It's so compelling.

[108] And I think being raised by a single mother and having had a lot of stepdad's that were controlling and violent and all these things.

[109] Of course, to me, it really spoke and felt real and heartbreaking.

[110] And then coming to learn that our narrator, you, which is fun because I want to say it's maybe episode four or five that we learn your history with us six, right?

[111] When we talk to Noah and Natalie, right?

[112] Yes, Natalie and Noah, yeah.

[113] And then I really was kind of just thunderstruck by that whole thing because, again, I don't know that someone has left.

[114] Again, I know Westboro Baptist from the signs.

[115] You grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church.

[116] Yeah.

[117] Actually, it's funny.

[118] The first episode of your podcast that I listened to was the live show that you two did with Brne Brown.

[119] Oh.

[120] And I was like remodeling the basement as like painting.

[121] And you brought up Westbro in that because like she was talking about, I think, congregations that disproportionately use shame.

[122] You mentioned Westbro.

[123] And she was like, yeah, but they're just hateful assholes.

[124] And I started laughing.

[125] And then you were like, now hold on a minute.

[126] Oh, yeah, me joking.

[127] A comedic moment.

[128] You seemed like somebody in the episodes that I've listened to.

[129] You are willing to look at somebody, you know, at the environment and the context that they became who they were.

[130] It's a really important and useful instinct.

[131] It seems like that perspective's definitely helped by being exposed to a lot of things.

[132] And then there's some power and moving, right, of like being able to look backwards at where you came from, some separation.

[133] And then AA.

[134] I can give you a really profound example of this.

[135] My crusader, my moral high horse is generally hypocrisy.

[136] It seems to be the thing that makes me the most upset.

[137] And there was a popular person who had been pushing a lot of legislation against the anti -gay legislation, who was then later found to be in a bathroom soliciting sex from a stranger, right?

[138] A male stranger.

[139] And I was on a three -day, righteous indignation tirade about this fucking asshole and he should blah, blah, blah.

[140] And he's hypocrites, et cetera.

[141] Well, doesn't this person walk into my AA meeting?

[142] Oh, wow.

[143] Yeah.

[144] And I was like, are you kidding, this motherfucker?

[145] I mean, that's where I start.

[146] And then I have to listen to him share for a while.

[147] And in that share, I can relate to being completely demoralized by a compulsion and a secret and all these things that to me are so human.

[148] And I certainly think the guy was still a hypocrite at the end of it.

[149] And I don't think he should be in politics, whatever it was.

[150] But I really was able to at the end of it go like, Yeah, there's a human that's really suffering and not like having a blast, not doing end zone dance.

[151] There's nothing victorious about this person's life.

[152] Yeah.

[153] And I have compassion for that.

[154] And so it's almost impossible to hear someone's full story and really hold on to all that hate and judgment if it's really well done.

[155] And you did that incredibly well in the witch trials.

[156] Thank you so much.

[157] You're probably afraid to brag, but it's enormous, right?

[158] Yeah, we came close to unseating, Joe Rogan.

[159] Oh, that's my way.

[160] That's a good goal.

[161] There'll be no unceding, Jim.

[162] But, yeah, I mean, honestly, it's been really incredible.

[163] Because, I mean, when we started this a couple years ago, my friend Andy Mills was the one who called me with the, you know.

[164] I know that name.

[165] Why do I know Andy Mills?

[166] He's a co -creator of the Daily Podcast at the New York Times.

[167] Oh, okay.

[168] He's incredible.

[169] We connected after I was on Sam Harris's podcast in 2015, and he had seen the BBC documentaries about my family.

[170] Of which there are three?

[171] There are three, yeah.

[172] Okay.

[173] The third one was made after I left the church a few years.

[174] ago.

[175] And so, yeah, we just became instant friends.

[176] He also comes from a background of fundamentalism.

[177] He was going to be a preacher.

[178] He's got his own incredible story as well.

[179] And so when he called me with the idea for this show, he wasn't pitching me on it.

[180] He was just like, I had this idea.

[181] I was instantly intrigued because my family actually didn't participate in the boycotts and condemnation of J .K. Rowling back in the day over Witchcraft.

[182] My dad actually brought the first book home from work.

[183] Like his boss had given it to him.

[184] She had read it and loved it.

[185] He'd read it and loved it.

[186] He's like, insisted I would love it.

[187] And so my whole family were huge fans of the books.

[188] Well, here's where we get into all the many glorious contradictions that exist within what now I have learned through watching your TED Talk and reading a bunch about you, but a lot of probably the contradictions you were juggling while being born in.

[189] And so maybe let's start with a little history of how you were born into Westboro Baptist, maybe started with your grandfather in 1955.

[190] Yes.

[191] So my grandfather, Fred Phelps, the first pastor of the Westboro, Baptist Church.

[192] He had 13 children and I am the third of 11 children.

[193] The church is actually populated almost entirely by my immediate and extended family.

[194] Really?

[195] Oh, I didn't realize that.

[196] And it's quite small, about 80 people for the people who know how huge the name got, you know, because of the protest.

[197] It was just a very small group of people who were extraordinarily dedicated to spreading this message that we believed was the most important message in the world.

[198] It was the only hope for mankind.

[199] Yeah, you're going to save mankind.

[200] Save and condemn.

[201] That was part of the whole package.

[202] Yeah, it was like we couldn't control how people would respond to it.

[203] Only God could control.

[204] We would say that was the prerogative of God.

[205] Our job was just to go and publish the message and knowing that most people would hate it.

[206] You know, Jesus said, if you follow me, you will be hated.

[207] And we would always say, like, they crucified Jesus.

[208] So clearly he didn't have a message that most people would like.

[209] It condemns them.

[210] That's a pretty good point, yeah.

[211] We went out knowing.

[212] that we would be hated.

[213] And so for me, from the age of five, that was when we started protesting every single day in our hometown.

[214] And then we pretty quickly started traveling across the U .S. regularly and essentially constantly met with rage and threats and, you know, people driving their cars at us.

[215] And for me, like standing behind a picket sign and seeing the world from this perspective.

[216] It was a very us versus them mentality.

[217] Well, first of all, I would imagine from a marketing standpoint, if you were taking a marketing class in college, this would be worth studying.

[218] It has to be the most widely disseminated thought from such a few amount of people with no funds at the top of the list.

[219] It's crazy how ubiquitous that term Hillsborough Baptist is.

[220] Westboro.

[221] I'm also watching the Hillsborough dock right now.

[222] Right?

[223] Is that what it's called?

[224] Hillsong?

[225] Oh, Hill Song.

[226] Yeah, there you go.

[227] Hilsong.

[228] I'm watching the Hillsong, Doc.

[229] So I'm so sorry.

[230] Yes.

[231] It's so good that I don't know the name of it.

[232] I just feel like perhaps if you guys weren't ultimately attacking liberals.

[233] I mean, that's really what you were attacking.

[234] Do you think there had been a lot more violence?

[235] It's dangerous because I don't want to condemn the right to violence, but I also think it's interesting that if I were going to pick a fight with people, it'd be liberals because they're generally going to be less inclined to be violent.

[236] I think gay people, they were the initial target of the church.

[237] Like that was the first major and the longest running target of the church.

[238] But pretty quickly, we were saying, God hates America.

[239] And we started protesting soldiers' funerals.

[240] America is doomed.

[241] What's the why behind?

[242] that.

[243] What we would say is that America has forgotten God.

[244] It's so funny.

[245] It's like all these like whores come like.

[246] Yeah.

[247] It's like a telemarketer 20 years ago and you can still remember this script.

[248] Exactly.

[249] America has institutionalized sin at every level and you know, you are promoting these ideas and behaviors that God has called an abomination.

[250] And so therefore, my mom would say we are going to connect the dots.

[251] And the dots are America's sins and then America's punishments.

[252] We would essentially think, why do you not realize that actions have consequences?

[253] And For us, it was just, exactly.

[254] It was so obvious.

[255] A detail I'd love to add is that your grandfather himself, ironically, was a civil rights attorney in the 70s.

[256] Mm -hmm.

[257] Yeah.

[258] That's kind of counter of what you would think the leader of the movement's history would be.

[259] For my grandfather, there was no contradiction between the two positions that he took.

[260] The one that he would say, God never said it was an abomination to be black or female or old, like these things that people were discriminated on the basis of.

[261] But homosexuality is conduct.

[262] And it's not neutral conduct.

[263] It is an abomination according to God.

[264] God was clear about that in his perspective.

[265] Exactly.

[266] Yeah.

[267] And so he's starting this church and this movement, but also simultaneously, there's also a family business, which I think is relevant.

[268] So your mother was an attorney for the law firm that he presumably started?

[269] Yes.

[270] And many family members, I guess.

[271] My grandparents had 13 children, and 11 of the 13 went to law school.

[272] Unreal.

[273] My grandfather actually required not only his children to go to.

[274] law school, but also their spouses.

[275] So my dad also went to law school.

[276] Oh, really?

[277] Yeah.

[278] He had to do that in order to marry my mom.

[279] So was your dad, he was obviously religious, but he wasn't in the church.

[280] No, he was actually best friends with my mom's youngest brother.

[281] And so he went to a local Episcopal church.

[282] I was so shocked when I discovered this because it was a church that we protested every single day.

[283] And I was like, he went here and he was an altar boy.

[284] That's like the craziest thing ever.

[285] And you're like, wow, we're really open -minded.

[286] So they were Romeo and Juliet.

[287] They were the Montecuze and the camp you live.

[288] Well, he's best friends with my mom's youngest brother, Tim, and they would have arguments about the Bible.

[289] And Tim would go and, like, point to all these Bible verses.

[290] And my dad pretty quickly was convinced.

[291] He was a teenager at the time.

[292] Right.

[293] He was like 16 when he was baptized at Westboro.

[294] Oh, so he jumped ship while still a teen.

[295] Yeah.

[296] Oh, my God.

[297] How did his family feel about that?

[298] I didn't know his parents so much growing up, because essentially, Westbrook sees other church members as your family.

[299] I understood my family, like these are the cousins who live in the surrounding houses.

[300] And, you know, we see each other all the time.

[301] We stand together on the picket line, you know, most days.

[302] It sounds really fun when I was reading about it because they own an entire neighborhood virtually, right?

[303] And they've connected all the backyard.

[304] So there's all this communal space.

[305] So you guys had a pool and a trampling and you're all together.

[306] And I imagine it's a pretty fun environment.

[307] It was the best.

[308] I mean, like that community.

[309] You're a commune.

[310] Yeah.

[311] I mean, it was one of the things when I left, it took me a while to realize that that kind of community, it's not common.

[312] You know, it really hit me one day.

[313] It isn't just that I have lost that for a time.

[314] It's that the normal people don't operate this way.

[315] It was really hard to come to terms with that.

[316] Well, and this is where the correlation versus causation could be curious because we know through the social scientists, like your guys is probably baseline of happiness was elevated from being in a community.

[317] And you could easily correlate that with your righteousness when in fact it probably was just the fact that you guys were a community misleading when you're trying to decide why you guys are so happy and no one else's yeah and purpose too we believe that we have the truth of god we have this special access to the truth existential angst does not exist at westboro like i knew exactly what i was supposed to be doing every single day every moment of every day everything was directed you know there were times when that could be i'm sure for certain people like very stifling to have your path completely set out in front of you.

[318] But I got very good at just accepting the bounds of your habitation are ordained by God himself.

[319] And you just have to, you just accept.

[320] It's kind of freeing in some ways.

[321] You don't have to make any decisions.

[322] Not a lot of thinking.

[323] Yeah.

[324] Exactly.

[325] No decisions.

[326] And then the ultimate reward on the other side of it, which is you believe in heaven and you'll be getting there.

[327] And that's going to be a blissful eternity.

[328] Yeah.

[329] And it was really interesting.

[330] Do you know Sebastian Younger?

[331] No. Oh my gosh.

[332] He's incredible.

[333] He has this book called Tribe.

[334] But I watched his TED Talk, and he was basically talking about, I think it was this outpost, I'm pretty sure it was in Afghanistan, and it's incredibly violent.

[335] They are under attack all the time.

[336] The soldiers there, they loved it.

[337] They had a very hard time coming home, and it's not because you like being under attack, but because that sense of brotherhood and connectedness, and you are sacrificing all these things for your brethren, right?

[338] I was like, this is exactly, it's how it was, bro.

[339] Do we like to be attacked?

[340] No, but it's certainly.

[341] made those bonds incredibly tight.

[342] I observed that.

[343] I went to Samabad, all these fobs in Afghanistan, in 07 and 09.

[344] And yes, I would be there.

[345] And there were helicopters shooting dudes in a cave in eyesight.

[346] And the general morale was quite high.

[347] I remember saying to my friend who was with me like, and this is wild, this is going to be the best time of a lot of these people's lives.

[348] And it's going to be very confusing.

[349] Because coming back from that, maybe the danger is gone.

[350] But so is that, again, sense of meaning and purpose and connectedness to people that you love and that you are willing to sacrifice it all for.

[351] There's just so much there.

[352] And there's not a lot of appealing turnkey options when you're a young man that can give you that.

[353] Sports.

[354] I think that's why a lot of people thrive in team sports is that exact same thing.

[355] Like, we'll bleed for each other.

[356] And it's all for this common goal.

[357] That might be the least damaging one.

[358] So you were very involved.

[359] You're, I guess, from the outside, from my perspective, you're kind of an era parent.

[360] Your mother was the matriarch of this organization, right?

[361] And she was a lawyer herself and had originally picked all the picketing spots and whatnot.

[362] Ultimately turned over to you at some point that became your role.

[363] About a year and a half before I left, there was kind of this big shift within the church where these elders took over.

[364] It was all of the essentially older married men.

[365] And so a lot of the things that my mom did fell to me. My mom, a lot of her influence within the church came from the fact that she would do anything.

[366] So, again, I'm the third of 11th.

[367] I felt like she had like seven or eight full -time jobs like she was doing the media for the church and all the logistical operations, which it's all of the external facing stuff, like the protests, but also all the internal stuff, like lawn mowing and daycare operations and like piano lessons.

[368] And it's an incredibly well -orchestrated operation.

[369] And did she ever say to you guys behind closed doors?

[370] Did she ever have to preface that?

[371] Like, I know this is extreme, but never.

[372] No, no, it's really funny because my husband had these questions too.

[373] Before he was my husband, he would ask these questions, like, we had to know how crazy this was, right?

[374] This had to be something that we like wink wink, nod, and I was like, no, because we believed that the Bible was the infallible word of God.

[375] In other words, it wasn't us.

[376] We weren't wrong.

[377] It was other people were wrong.

[378] Like, they were the ones who had left the truth of God.

[379] And it's so clearly set out here.

[380] Can she just memorize this verse?

[381] Yeah, and it wasn't intentionally inflammatory as much as it's intentionally the truth.

[382] So it wasn't until after I left.

[383] And actually, the process of writing my book as I was kind of following the way things had fallen out.

[384] Because, you know, again, I was five when all this started.

[385] You start doing interviews very, very young, and you two start participating in a lot of the forward -facing media stuff.

[386] So you're pretty fucking savvy by the time you're 17 years old.

[387] I was just right there with my mom.

[388] It was one of the things, you know, she required me. I'm the oldest girl.

[389] I think she was trying to protect me and like keep me close.

[390] And so there were moments where, you know, I started to go out into the world, like to get an outside job and those ended very quickly.

[391] So I accepted that this was my role as I was going back through my memories and the, you know, newspaper articles and talking to the older people in my mom's generation who had left when I was very young.

[392] So people who I didn't really know and I was asking them all these questions, I think one of the things that I didn't realize at first was my grandfather was absolutely using the power of the 24 -hour news cycle.

[393] And it's very funny because you can see this happening on social media today.

[394] Outrage, provocative things.

[395] Like, this is what gets attention.

[396] And so we optimize for those things.

[397] My mom would say, this is the soundbite generation.

[398] This is why we have three to five words on a picket sign.

[399] Like the most inflammatory version of our message.

[400] It's real and it's true.

[401] And we believed every word of it.

[402] But it's also clearly something that is designed.

[403] to get attention.

[404] And it's funny, I remember sitting in on an interview that my grandfather gave and the reporter said, some people say that you're just doing this for attention.

[405] And my grandfather looked at her like, she was an idiot.

[406] And he was like, well, of course, I'm doing this for attention.

[407] How am I going to preach to these people if I don't have their attention?

[408] And so they see, I saw, the publicity as a function of, you know, this is God is with us.

[409] Right.

[410] Look how outsized the responses.

[411] Absolutely.

[412] And now looking back, it's like, well, of course it was outsized.

[413] It's this incredibly provocative message, very dedicated going to the most sensitive places.

[414] The person who yells fire in a theater gets a lot of attention.

[415] A lot of attention.

[416] It makes a lot more sense now.

[417] And it's also just kind of very strange looking back.

[418] It's like the sense of meaning and purpose and God being with us and now seeing it kind of more directly as this just makes perfect sense from a mundane point of view, like not from a celestial everlasting thing.

[419] it was very sad to realize for all of that stuff to kind of be drained out of it.

[420] Yeah.

[421] What a loss.

[422] So your transition out of it starts in I guess 2009 when you joined Twitter.

[423] Yes.

[424] Your TED Talk, which I urge everyone to see, it's tremendous.

[425] You really detail this whole experience.

[426] And you're urging people who would like to challenge other people's beliefs to use four steps.

[427] So maybe we can talk about the four steps because I think they're wonderful.

[428] and they're the ones that ultimately broke through to you.

[429] Yeah, I got on Twitter to spread the church's message.

[430] Initially, the responses that I got there were very much, like what I experienced on the picket line, a lot of anger and reflecting the same kind of hostility and provocation that people felt from me. And then there were these individuals who just used these, to me, the very basic tactics.

[431] I'm essentially in that TED talk, I'm just describing what people did for me. So the four steps, the first one is don't assume bad intent because it immediately cuts you off.

[432] off from being able to understand, you know, like we were saying earlier, seeing people in their own context.

[433] Because if you believe that they are doing this on purpose, if they are purposefully doing what they know is wrong.

[434] They're nefarious.

[435] They're forces of evils.

[436] Exactly.

[437] Like, what hope do you have of changing their mind?

[438] They have to be defeated, right?

[439] That's the sense.

[440] Second point was ask questions.

[441] For a number of reasons, like first, that's the thing that helps you understand where they're coming from so that you can address what they actually believe.

[442] But there's also this other point, which is that when you ask people questions and you give them an opportunity to be heard, that sense of feeling heard, I think also makes us more likely to listen.

[443] These people are asking me all these questions.

[444] So I'm like going on and on about, you know, I have a lot of things to tell you because I've memorized all these Bible verses and then I get to the end of it and then what?

[445] And it's like, well, what do you think?

[446] What do you make of this?

[447] Like, how could you possibly disagree with this?

[448] Yeah, right.

[449] Yeah.

[450] Asking questions is actually a really powerful tool.

[451] I feel like they seem very obvious, but they're not easy.

[452] they're not i mean before we go to three let's just talk about one for a second oh sure i found myself very frustrated with my political side during the trump era that the conclusion was 50 % of this country was hate -mongering racist i found that very problematic and concerning it's just reeks of us them of tribalism we're morally superior they're inferior at some point in that process i started really thinking of it in terms of like there are two factions in this country and they're afraid of different things but they're afraid that's really what we have the most in common we're all very afraid and we're afraid of different things and I can find compassion for people who are scared I know what it's like to be scared I don't do my best thinking when I'm scared I don't act to my best when I'm scared in fact it's the worst version of me is when I'm scared yeah when people are afraid you kind of see that they are looking at the people on the other side.

[453] And they seem so powerful.

[454] They're looking at the power that they have.

[455] So I think on the left, they tend to look at the legislative power.

[456] And then people on the right are looking at the cultural power and the, you know, education and all these.

[457] Media news.

[458] They seem like they have so much power.

[459] And so therefore, it's very important that we have to fight them.

[460] So much of this comes down to because there's a lot of hopelessness.

[461] It's like there's not even any point in truly engaging with what they actually think.

[462] They don't need to be persuaded.

[463] They need to be defeated.

[464] And so it's like using whatever power we have to make that happen.

[465] They can't be persuaded because they're amoral and other.

[466] They're incapable of it.

[467] Yeah.

[468] Also, everyone is David and the David and Goliath parable.

[469] And what does David do?

[470] Well, David obviously can't fight the Goliath fairly.

[471] He has to use a weapon, right?

[472] So he kind of cheats.

[473] They both had weapons, though.

[474] I think Goliath had, I think, a huge sword.

[475] You were the wrong person to bring this to that too.

[476] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[477] But he did outsmart him with a clever, right?

[478] Right?

[479] A sling?

[480] Yes.

[481] And five smooth stones.

[482] And five smooth stones.

[483] Well, that's a delicious detail.

[484] You know, when you study urban legends, they always say that there's certain things that you can isolate that make them so sticky like the black coffin and the AIDS one.

[485] Five smooth.

[486] For somehow, the Bible figured out a lot of really good.

[487] But at any rate, if you're David and you're fighting Goliath, all means are open to you is what I'm saying.

[488] Yeah.

[489] And we all feel justified in however nasty we got to get because we're David and the Goliath is.

[490] the opposition.

[491] This might be bad, but they're worse, and they must lose.

[492] That's, I think.

[493] The thought.

[494] Yeah.

[495] Okay.

[496] So then now number three.

[497] Yes, number three is stay calm, which again, these seem very obvious.

[498] But yeah, like, think about whenever you are in these incredibly tense conversations with people who disagree with you about things that you feel so strongly and so certain about, it is very hard to stay calm.

[499] One of the things about Twitter that was so good for me was when you're standing on the picket line and you're looking at somebody face to face, I've got these shouty talking points and all these Bible verses and I can quote them to you, you know, at the drop of a head.

[500] And they're all very strongly worded condemnations.

[501] On Twitter, there was a way to just step back.

[502] Like, I could listen to people.

[503] And when things started to feel heated, to just step away from it and then come back to it, that was really powerful because it kind of gave me time and space to consider what was actually being said.

[504] It's a very difficult thing to do, I think.

[505] That's impressive, though, because most people on Twitter are doing the opposite.

[506] They are whatever's happening in their head is immediately out there.

[507] They're not taking any space.

[508] Right.

[509] And so it's like recognizing that that's actually a really powerful thing that you can do.

[510] It's a tool that you can use.

[511] So many of the things that I eventually used Twitter for were things that I just picked up from these people who were engaging me civilly, kindly.

[512] They weren't pretending to agree with me. They were very clear about the fact that they disagreed, that they thought.

[513] I was doing something that was really wrong and destructive and, like, really hurtful to people.

[514] Yeah, endangered the lives of people.

[515] And just the fact that we were celebrating all these really horrible things.

[516] Well, yeah, a couple of the big turning points for you were, A, the proposed picket of Sandy Hook.

[517] That actually was after I left.

[518] It was like a month after I left.

[519] Oh, okay, okay.

[520] Yeah, there were these moments.

[521] So you talk about shame.

[522] I remember that was also in the Bernie Brown episode we were talking about.

[523] So I was talking to an anthropologist a couple years ago.

[524] She described shame as being the feeling that we have when we know that we have violated the norms of our community.

[525] Well, when I was at Westboro, before I got on Twitter, that was my community.

[526] Everybody around me, when something horrible would happen, they would be celebrating.

[527] After I got on Twitter and started to develop rapport and then these acquaintances and then ultimately people that I really liked, over time I started to feel shame about what we were doing.

[528] So like there was this mismatch between, you know, I'm sitting here on Twitter.

[529] Twitter, like when a celebrity dies or when some horrible tragedy happens.

[530] And everybody in my physical space is essentially good riddance, you know.

[531] More proof.

[532] Exactly.

[533] This is a punishment from God.

[534] This is well -deserved.

[535] It's a reminder you're on the right path.

[536] And then these people on Twitter who I'm learning about them and their family.

[537] I'm watching their children grow older and the photos they're posting.

[538] These are people that I talk to about music and films.

[539] So we're sharing genuine moments of human connection.

[540] And I really tried to write that off and minimize that when I was at the church.

[541] But it was really meaningful to me. That was how I started to feel shame about celebrating death and tragedy.

[542] One of the moments was this horrible thing that happened in Norway when this guy, Anders Breivik, this terrorist, went and set off a bomb and then also shot a bunch of children at this camp.

[543] And as those details were coming out and the body counts are rising.

[544] My family is getting more and more.

[545] It's like points on the scoreboard.

[546] Exactly.

[547] And, you know, I had this man who would eventually become my husband.

[548] I knew that he had a family connection in Norway.

[549] He said something like, my Facebook wall is all shattered Norwegian innocence.

[550] I had known him for several months anonymously, playing words with France.

[551] Before Twitter, when we would read articles about people, we'd be looking for their sins.

[552] Like, this is a woman and her hair is cut.

[553] This sounds like very silly, but like the things that we would write people off for, they celebrated Christmas or Halloween, this man and his pregnant girlfriend, all these things that were their sins.

[554] And we knew just from those little details about their lives, that they were hellbound and that God hated them and was punishing them.

[555] And because of Twitter, I was now seeing all of these other aspects of their lives that complicated the narrative.

[556] And then just the feelings that complicated the narrative.

[557] I mean, it's funny.

[558] I can hear my family listening to this and, you know, God hates your feelings.

[559] We had a sign that said, God hates your feelings.

[560] Right, right.

[561] Yeah.

[562] And God hates a lot of stuff.

[563] He's very angry.

[564] He's a man. Yeah.

[565] Now I do think he is a man. If he's that angry, actually, I'm coming around to the notion that he's probably a man. This guy hates everything.

[566] Hate skinny jeans.

[567] Fucking hate skinny jeans.

[568] What's funny is we used to actually make those kind of jokes too.

[569] Like we'd be out of a picket in the middle of winter and be like freezing cold and I don't know, Ann Arbor or something.

[570] And then it's like, God hates winter.

[571] Like, we need to own my death.

[572] We need to only fly south.

[573] Well, then another thing was that in these kind of what sounds like started really hot, but then the people you were talking to you had some patient stayed calm, asked questions, all these things.

[574] Also, some of the contradictions were being pointed out to you.

[575] One of them being...

[576] The penalty for...

[577] For what?

[578] Nearly everything, but that penalty for having a child out of wedlock.

[579] I don't know what to call that.

[580] Well, yeah.

[581] Yeah, so the reason I froze is because I used to just quote all these things from those days.

[582] And now I think, I don't know.

[583] I've had this conversation with a lot of gay people specifically.

[584] Of course.

[585] Well, the website was death to fags.

[586] No, it's god hates fags .com.

[587] Yeah.

[588] He was able to get that domain.

[589] So death penalty for fags was the sign.

[590] Oh, okay, death penalty for fags.

[591] Yes.

[592] But can we get into a little bit of why you now feel like you don't want to.

[593] Yeah.

[594] I know that some people will hear me say that as if I don't recognize.

[595] That is crazy.

[596] that word, we minimized it, we justified it.

[597] But one of the reasons that I still use it when I'm quoting is because I had all these conversations with gay people in my life who said that they think it's important to use the language.

[598] I think it's essential.

[599] Yeah.

[600] Because otherwise it's...

[601] It's sanitized.

[602] Yeah, it is.

[603] Yeah, atrocities shan't be glossed over or sugar -coded, I don't think.

[604] Yeah.

[605] But the one in particular I'm thinking of is someone pointed out that your own mother was not married when she had your oldest brother.

[606] Yes.

[607] How did that even happen given the community she was living?

[608] I mean, I know they had sex, clearly.

[609] Yes, I don't actually know all of the details of that.

[610] I do know that my mom was in law school and obviously got into a premarial relationship with somebody.

[611] And though not your dad.

[612] No, my oldest brother is my half -brother technically, but we never thought about him that way.

[613] So the way that the conversation went was we had that death penalty for a fag sign and my now friend, David Abbottball, who, Jewish was his handle.

[614] He ran a Jewish cultural blog.

[615] You know, he said, well, having a child out of wedlock is also a sin that is worthy of death.

[616] What about your own mom?

[617] And we would just say, like, she repented of that sin.

[618] And so therefore, it's easy.

[619] So she can, yeah.

[620] Right.

[621] And it was like, but if she had been killed, she wouldn't have had the opportunity to repent and be forgiven.

[622] Yeah.

[623] And he quoted the Bible verse about what he was without sin cast the first stone.

[624] And we would say, we're not casting stones.

[625] We're preaching words.

[626] And he said, yeah, but you're advocating that the government cast stones.

[627] And again, these seem like very obvious points, but like coming from my family full of lawyers coming from this like very legalistic, like we had answers for everything that I learned on the picket line from the time I was five.

[628] We're reading the Bible every single day and spending a ton of time memorizing these things.

[629] You're not going to get out bribled.

[630] Well, yeah, I mean, but that's what was so wild about it.

[631] But what's really funny is as you're saying all this and how you had these things, in my mind, I'm like, it's so ironic.

[632] That book doesn't mean anything to me. Great.

[633] You have memorized the words of one of 10 million books that have been written in human history.

[634] Let me add that that book only arrived at the 99th, of our time on earth, like your conviction about what that means.

[635] And to me, who doesn't think that book's any more significant than any other book is like, yeah, I could be quoting to you Huck Finn over and over again.

[636] But you're so divorced from any other perspective that, yeah, for you, if you nailed the verse, court case closed.

[637] It's proved.

[638] That's it.

[639] Absolutely.

[640] Without any knowledge that maybe someone doesn't think that book is really the word of God.

[641] Well, that's what was so interesting after I kind of had this deconstruction moment was realizing I kind of instinctively avoided questions from atheists and questions about the authenticity and the origin of the Bible itself.

[642] It's not a great topic.

[643] Yeah, exactly.

[644] It's definitely.

[645] I mean, how do I justify this?

[646] Because Gramps said so, like, why the King James version of the Bible?

[647] And there were these arguments that you could make.

[648] But on the basis of conscience, I'm accepting this argument because it's coming from my grandfather.

[649] Why would that be compelling to you?

[650] And so I just avoided those arguments.

[651] Right, right, right.

[652] Stay tuned.

[653] for more armchair expert if you dare What's up guys, this your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[654] Every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation and I don't mean just friends, I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on so follow, watch, and listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[655] We've all been there.

[656] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[657] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[658] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[659] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[660] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[661] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[662] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[663] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[664] Now this person, I'm going to ask a dicey question, but I'd be dishonest if I didn't think this was happening while I was learning of the patience people showed you, like this David guy, spending that much time to point out, as opposed to me, that would just be like, yeah, you're quoting a book that was written 300 years after the guy you worship died.

[665] Like, what are you talking?

[666] You know, I would have gone that route.

[667] Was there photos of you on your Twitter account?

[668] Because I think you might have benefited greatly from being beautiful.

[669] Oh, thanks.

[670] I mean, truly.

[671] I can't see why these mostly men in these stories were being.

[672] so insanely patient.

[673] I feel like some weird, primitive evolutionary thing was happening.

[674] I was like, I can't accept that this creature who's so pretty is this wayward.

[675] I have the patience to rescue you to try my hardest and be my most patient and take my most.

[676] I think you might have had a little bit of an advantage that someone else probably wouldn't have been given.

[677] That's not to make you feel guilty.

[678] I just want to recognize the full reality of this because I can't relate to these people spending this much time being gentle to you.

[679] Okay, so there's a couple things.

[680] So first of all, my husband would absolutely agree.

[681] with you.

[682] He would definitely say that that was part of...

[683] Sure.

[684] The thinking of your husband is like, yeah, he was like, I'm in love so I can't accept that she's on this path.

[685] I'm going to fight for her.

[686] Yes.

[687] David, though, the way that he's explained it is that he actually didn't think that he could convince me. Although some of our communication was by email or by Twitter DM, like the conversation I was telling you about the death penalty sign, that was on DM.

[688] A lot of it was public.

[689] He wanted to model a good argument or a good strategy for penetrating.

[690] This is one of the arguments about the importance of free speech.

[691] Like, why should people be able to say stupid, destructive things out loud?

[692] It's like, because they're not the only ones who have those views.

[693] What we need is to help give people the language to make the arguments.

[694] Like, why have we chosen a different path?

[695] Like, why do we reject those things?

[696] Because people come to bad ideas in all kinds of ways.

[697] Yes.

[698] We're all holding bad ideas.

[699] And for him to be publicly explaining and to counter the arguments that I was making, that was a big part.

[700] He didn't actually think that he could convince me. me. Right.

[701] And he probably had some kind of intellectual integrity that he was adhering to that he believed in.

[702] It's his strength.

[703] Yeah.

[704] But you're smart and you're a worthy adversary.

[705] It's not like if he was talking to, I'm sure, many other people.

[706] It probably felt like this is a person I'm willing to engage with because she is coming back with some actual points that, yes, need to be modeled.

[707] Yeah.

[708] Because it's easy to just dismiss someone who you think isn't.

[709] Well, I think he was adhering to rule number one, which is he probably had assessed at some point that you probably didn't have bad intent, that you were just probably quite misled.

[710] Yeah, he knew that I grew up in the church.

[711] That helps.

[712] We don't choose things.

[713] We were handed our worldview until we got old enough to start challenging it, but we're all handed a worldview.

[714] I want to say two other things, though, really quick, because you said other people wouldn't have benefited.

[715] This was actually something that I didn't realize until after I left as I started to talk to siblings.

[716] and cousins who left, almost all of them.

[717] I can't remember anybody who doesn't quite fit this description, but they all had some kind of relationship.

[718] For some people, it was romantic relationships.

[719] For some people, it was friends, where they got closer than they should have, according to Westboro.

[720] The real power of earth took over humanity.

[721] Exactly.

[722] And it's really fascinating because I remember talking to, do you guys know Derek Black?

[723] No. He's fascinating.

[724] David Duke was his godfather.

[725] He grew up, era parent.

[726] Like his dad, I think, started Stormfront, just like gathering place for a white nationalist on the internet.

[727] We actually were at the Jenny Jones Show in Chicago at the same time about hate websites, and he had started one for kids, a white nationalist one for kids.

[728] Anyways, like we had very similar stories.

[729] And there was this amazing article.

[730] It later became a book.

[731] Anyway, we became friends.

[732] And he said something that really stuck with me. He said, change your community.

[733] Change your mind.

[734] He went to college.

[735] Also, for him, it was a Jewish guy.

[736] He started going to these Shabbat dinners and having these conversations.

[737] And eventually he gets argued out of his belief.

[738] Again, that stuck with me because I think that is absolutely true.

[739] It's also a recruiting tactic for groups like ISIS.

[740] They are building relationships with people and slowly you become convinced.

[741] Anyways, all that to say, I don't think I'm the only person.

[742] I think I just responded in a very human way to people who were willing to treat me like a human being.

[743] Yeah, I'm just trying to be a little honest about the fact that the 300 pound toothless dude with long hair and back who's balding, he's at a disadvantage.

[744] People are not going to put in the time for him.

[745] They're going to write him off.

[746] this whole other spectrum of our civilization that we're kind of not acknowledging, which is there is a fucking tax on people who are not attractive and who are not appealing.

[747] And they're not given the benefit of the doubt and they have not shown empathy.

[748] I'm with you.

[749] I'm not saying that you're completely wrong about that or anything.

[750] Again, Chad, my husband.

[751] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[752] He's definitely one on that.

[753] You don't need to feel any.

[754] I'm not trying to suggesting you should feel guilt about that or need to apologize for that.

[755] It's more a call to help everybody.

[756] Yeah.

[757] That's what I'm pointing out.

[758] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[759] I always say this on here.

[760] which is like the dude in the jacked up truck with the nut sack hanging off, that guy actually needs your love more than any other person.

[761] And he's the hardest to love.

[762] But it's incumbent upon us to go, no, rule number one, this dude is just as misled.

[763] From my perspective, we are all the product of our biology and our upbringing, our environment.

[764] So it's really funny.

[765] The epigraph of my book is this line from the Great Gatsby that says, reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope.

[766] Oh, I like that.

[767] I love it so much.

[768] That was one of the things that I read, you know, because it was Chad's profile picture when he was anonymous on Twitter back in the day was Robert Redford as Jay Gatsby.

[769] Oh, you're kidding.

[770] Oh, wow.

[771] I surprised you guys don't live on West Egg and stay up in South Dakota.

[772] I went back to reread that because I'd read it in high school.

[773] And that was near the beginning of the book.

[774] Even for people who seem to be doing really bad things, the recognition that who they are in this moment isn't who they have to be forever.

[775] And it's essentially a message of grace.

[776] And a little humility to know that you, too, would be.

[777] be exactly who this person is if you had walked every step of their life.

[778] Yeah.

[779] We're also proud of ourselves for not being Westboro Baskett's members.

[780] They do it right this time?

[781] Yes.

[782] I was not super clean.

[783] It was not super clean.

[784] But yeah, it's really funny.

[785] When I think about ideological privilege, it's like how lucky are you to have been born in a normal family that did?

[786] Yeah.

[787] He's another pet people of mine.

[788] I've watched people bring, specifically some rappers, really put them over the Coles and I am so frustrated that yes if you were born in a household that was an eight out of a 10 on the liberal scale and you made it to nine after graduation and you're looking at this rapper one I'm thinking of in particular grew up his mother was a hooker got roped up as a child he was at a one and he's made it to a five so fuck you he's actually made far greater strides than you have and have some recognition that you were probably born into a seven or an eight and all you've really done is clicked up one.

[789] So just some humility, I think, about where people start from is relevant.

[790] Yeah.

[791] I'm in full lockstep with all of this.

[792] And I think ideological proof.

[793] I've never heard that.

[794] And that's so spot on and important to remember.

[795] But I'm okay having expectations of people, at least in my life, that I want growth from all of us, including myself.

[796] I don't think saying, okay, they grew up in this way.

[797] So I guess it's just like fine that they're picking.

[798] at the Sandy Hook.

[799] No, I'm with you.

[800] You know what I mean?

[801] But that's a false dichotomy.

[802] And it's what we always talk about in here, which is like you can be compassionate to criminals and insist that they pay for their crimes.

[803] Both things are possible.

[804] Exactly.

[805] So you're saying the first part and I'm making sure the second part is said.

[806] Both have to be said.

[807] Yeah, no, I'm totally with you.

[808] I miss my family so much.

[809] I bet.

[810] So much.

[811] Yeah, what a community.

[812] Yeah.

[813] It's your family.

[814] 99 % I imagine of your life was just.

[815] helping on trampoline, not talking about what the clears we're doing.

[816] Yeah.

[817] Running around and having fun.

[818] I have a daughter now who's four and a half and she's very close to my husband's parents.

[819] And so now I'm trying to make sure this isn't a thing that I have to like reveal to her later.

[820] Like I'm trying to help her understand.

[821] Yes, I also have parents and they live far away and here's why they're not in our lives.

[822] And I'm very open with her about the very good parts of my family.

[823] but I'm now also the point where I'm explaining why we don't have a relationship.

[824] And I can say that I love my family.

[825] The subtitle of my book was initially loving and leaving the Westboro Baptist Church.

[826] And it's both, right?

[827] So I absolutely love my family.

[828] I can recognize that they are doing what they're doing because they really believe that it is their duty to God and to their fellow man. And it is the way that they love their neighbor and that their intentions are good.

[829] But I'm also very open and clear about all of the harmful and destructive things that they do and have done and that I have done in my life very proudly and to also explain why I no longer believe those things and to try now to convince them to change their minds.

[830] You know, when I first left, I thought this is just the way it is now and I have lost them forever.

[831] And then I realized pretty quickly, how dare I?

[832] I was never going to leave.

[833] I was so absolutely persuaded and convinced and I changed.

[834] Yeah.

[835] So how dare I limit their ability to change?

[836] And a lot has changed since I left.

[837] And I know probably because of these very public arguments that I've made in my book and interviews and things.

[838] Did a lot of people leave after you left and became public?

[839] Because they obviously knew and loved you.

[840] Yeah.

[841] They had at least listened to what you were saying.

[842] Some people who have left since I left have directly cited arguments that I've made, including I have a little brother, number of 10 of the 11 who left in 2020.

[843] Oh.

[844] Really?

[845] It's amazing.

[846] It's rarely one thing because, you know, at first it can seem like, okay, well, maybe we're just wrong about this.

[847] And then as the number of things grows, finally, you are willing to.

[848] question the most basic premises of what we believe and to think, oh, this isn't just a few things, maybe the entire way that we see the world.

[849] Yeah, I did want to illustrate that point.

[850] Like, I have had role reversals on, let's say, death penalty, right?

[851] Or some issues I've flipped.

[852] But I have never completely removed the foundation that every other thing was built upon, which I can only imagine must create a crisis of identity that I probably would never relate to.

[853] It is completely terrifying.

[854] What the fuck is up and what is down?

[855] Exactly.

[856] The very core foundation is there's a God.

[857] He made us.

[858] We have a responsibility to carry out his wishes.

[859] If that's off the table, what are we building anything on?

[860] It's like you've got to catch up with a secular, how we defined and valued our lives.

[861] And there's so many options there.

[862] There's like too many.

[863] Yeah.

[864] And if you were wrong all that time about the thing that you believed, how do you move forward from that at all?

[865] And then also, if you were wrong about all those things, and I have very proudly engaged in these behaviors that I had believed were not just justified, but good.

[866] And then realizing, oh, my God, it's not justified.

[867] I did all these horrible things.

[868] How am I going to live in the world that I've been demonizing my entire life?

[869] Is there a road to redemption?

[870] Is that even a thing?

[871] Yeah.

[872] It's this beautiful life and all of the meaning and purpose and community.

[873] Everything was so good and beautiful.

[874] And then it was like it turned to ashes in my hands in a moment.

[875] Not only do I not have this anymore, all I'm left with is a world that I've spent my entire life antagonizing, openly, proudly, publicly.

[876] It was really terrifying.

[877] And also it's very funny.

[878] There's this weird owl song.

[879] Oh, there we go.

[880] In the moments after I have this revelation, all of it's like hitting me at once.

[881] And I'm just absolutely terrified.

[882] the lyrics for this weird else song come into my brain.

[883] Everything you know is wrong.

[884] Black is white, up is down and short as long.

[885] And everything you thought was just so important doesn't matter.

[886] And then, of course, I felt like insane that I was thinking about how weird out.

[887] Yeah.

[888] Nellism would look most appealing to me after all this.

[889] Like, oh, God, I guess nothing matters.

[890] I am an atheist.

[891] I just don't believe.

[892] But I don't even like to say I don't believe because I still feel like a believer in many ways.

[893] It's just in people.

[894] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[895] I mean, it's partly because of the way that.

[896] that I didn't find my way out.

[897] I was led out very kindly by people who were really wonderful.

[898] Well, it's good to remember that we were not created in God's image.

[899] God was created in our image.

[900] So everything you felt about God is us.

[901] And everything that we are drawn to in it is simple, social primate, status structure.

[902] It's the ultimate alpha God.

[903] We revere.

[904] We obsess over.

[905] We stare at.

[906] So really the root of everything you felt is still right here.

[907] And in fact, it's tangible.

[908] And you can tell it.

[909] And instead of displaying your love for this fictitious thing, you can do it to a real human in front of you.

[910] You can take all that energy in love and give to someone that's actually here with you.

[911] The status seeking things, the jealousy, the ego, like all those things.

[912] The Westboro version of me would see all those things.

[913] It's like, oh, we are so deprared.

[914] I mean, that was literally the first of the five points that we talked about all the time, total depravity.

[915] And now I just accept it's part of being human.

[916] And like, what can we do to not get around that exactly, but to optimize the kind of life that we want to live, in light of the fact that we have these, like, common human.

[917] Oh, yeah, we're hardwired.

[918] We got a lot to battle.

[919] It's really, really impressive.

[920] Oh, yeah.

[921] 9 .999 people would have just been like, I'm just going to stay.

[922] Even with the knowledge that this doesn't feel right, I think most people would be like, I'm here.

[923] It's too hard.

[924] Well, you're at, yes.

[925] The price I'd have to pay is my entire life.

[926] Yeah.

[927] And all my community.

[928] Most people aren't picking us.

[929] It's really incredible.

[930] Thank you.

[931] It's really funny, though.

[932] David, he was incredible before.

[933] I love the church, but I think he was even more so after.

[934] He invited, actually here, to Los Angeles, to speak at the festival, the Jewish festival, that I had protested three years earlier.

[935] David would go to where she was protesting, bring her Jewish food he had brought from Israel, and feed her.

[936] Yeah.

[937] Despite her same.

[938] I was literally holding a Ghani's Jews sign.

[939] I'm like, that's Jesus.

[940] You're like, that's the irony of all of it.

[941] It's funny because, you know, we are Midwestern, polite.

[942] And so when he told me he was bringing this stuff, I was like, oh my gosh, I can't come empty -handed.

[943] I brought him one of my favorite bars of peppermint chocolate.

[944] So I'm literally holding a God -Hid juice on where exchanging these gifts.

[945] And he like flips the bar over and starts teaching me about the kosher symbols on the packaging.

[946] It was like this totally surreal moment.

[947] So when he invited me back here, it was like a couple months after I left and I was still in this, you know, moment of complete terror.

[948] The way I described is like I felt like I had this huge boulder sitting on my chest.

[949] Like I felt like I couldn't breathe.

[950] And to have gone my whole life being so certain about what I was doing next and not having to make any decisions and now I have to decide everything.

[951] But he was so wonderful because as I was sitting at this Shabbat table with him and just absolutely weeping over everything, the loss of everything and coming to terms with what I had done to other people, he said, you are your parents' children talking to me and my sister, my sister left with me. And I was like, how can you possibly say that?

[952] We have just betrayed everyone and everything.

[953] And he said, in many ways, what you did, it was the most Westboro Baptist Church thing you could have done.

[954] Like, your family are the ones who taught you to stand up for what you believe in, no matter what it cost you.

[955] They just never imagine you would be standing up to them.

[956] And that was the realization that there were many wonderful things that we could still keep after we left, even though it seemed like we had totally and completely lost everything.

[957] Okay, so let's now get into J .K. Rowling a little bit.

[958] I guess my first question is, why do you suppose you were approached?

[959] So Andy, my friend, Andy Mills.

[960] So he just called me. I don't know this, but he's one of the co -creators of the idea.

[961] Yes.

[962] So, yeah, he just called me with the idea because it was interesting.

[963] What did he find interesting?

[964] Well, I mean, so just the fact that, you know, J .K. Rolling had been the subject of these two major backlashes.

[965] one from the right, one from the left.

[966] And she wrote these books about Witches and Wizards.

[967] And so we even have a great title, The Witch Trials of J .K. Roll it.

[968] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[969] So when he first called me, I had forgotten about the Christian backlash, because, again, we hadn't taken part in it.

[970] As did I, by the way, until I was listening to your show.

[971] Really quick.

[972] It just speaks to, Monica and I talked about this.

[973] The most fascinating thing for me to walk away was, it's funny how easily you don't care when the other side rejects you.

[974] Yes.

[975] I'm sure she didn't give a shit.

[976] I remember watching that and thought, Oh, these crazy Christians are up to another thing.

[977] Like, they're worried about this fucking book now.

[978] I didn't even care.

[979] And then when the left started skewering her, I was like, oh, no, this is trouble.

[980] What's going on?

[981] As I'm sure she did.

[982] And it's just really also another great example of like us and them.

[983] You don't even care if you're pissing off the tonic.

[984] Well, not even you don't care.

[985] Sometimes it makes you feel good.

[986] Vindicated maybe.

[987] Yeah, more evidence that they're crazy and I'm not.

[988] When people that you think are wrong think that you're wrong, it's like, good.

[989] I mean, I think you're wrong.

[990] I don't want to be close to them.

[991] Yes, yes.

[992] This is why the shame thing, it's when you violated the norms of your community.

[993] Yes.

[994] When it's the other guys, my gramps would say, like, we wear this as a badge of honor.

[995] Yeah, it's value, yeah.

[996] When he first mentioned that to me, I immediately got off the phone and I just started Googling.

[997] It's so fascinating.

[998] After a couple days of that, he was like, do you want to be a research producer?

[999] I was like, well, I've never done anything like that before, but yeah.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] And then a few days later, he asked about hosting.

[1002] And I definitely took some time before I said yes to that for a lot of reasons.

[1003] I mean, we talk about this in episode six, knowing it's an incredibly toxic conversation.

[1004] And again, given my history, am I the right person to try to have this conversation?

[1005] I ultimately obviously said yes.

[1006] I spent a lot of time talking to people, trans people, gay people.

[1007] I don't come to this clean, right?

[1008] And so there were a lot of reasons that I ultimately said yes.

[1009] One of them is just the conversation has to happen.

[1010] We can't keep yelling at each other from silos and trying to defeat.

[1011] We have to actually have a conversation.

[1012] This is what I eventually wrote to JK Rowling.

[1013] The fact that so much this is happening on social media where it's optimizing for the most extreme versions of our positions.

[1014] And those extreme versions get conflated with anybody who is vaguely on one side or another.

[1015] And amplifying our worst impulses.

[1016] For the last, you know, at this point it's 10 years since I left Westboro.

[1017] I spent all this time talking about the importance and the value.

[1018] of good faith dialogue.

[1019] That's what was challenging for me is I'm just pretty much against Twitter.

[1020] But then to hear you so positively say that it really saved your life, I like it.

[1021] It complicates it for me. Yeah.

[1022] One of the things that made it so good for me is just coming from the picket line.

[1023] Twitter was better.

[1024] Yeah, it's an improvement.

[1025] Yeah, I had a very thick skin.

[1026] You know, death threats and rape threats, except the most extreme ones, this is just part of the landscape of my life.

[1027] Whereas for most people, those stop people from engaging.

[1028] But can I ask really quick, were you afraid it would seem self -indulgent?

[1029] for you to share the letter you sent to her?

[1030] Or did you feel like that'd be a violation of the privacy between the two of you?

[1031] Why didn't we hear that letter?

[1032] She referenced it many times as being super persuasive and agreeing to do it.

[1033] And it left a big question mark.

[1034] Oh, really?

[1035] That's so funny.

[1036] Nobody's asked me actually to see the letter.

[1037] I said a lot of things.

[1038] Like I quoted one of my favorite writers, Marilyn Robinson, who said that the language of public life has lost the character of generosity, which I think it's a massive understatement.

[1039] And the fact that so much this is happening on social media and all the negative effects of that.

[1040] And just how concerned I am.

[1041] For me, public discourse, civil dialogue, this is an essential function of a pluralistic society.

[1042] There's no question in my mind.

[1043] Like, that has been absolutely absent here.

[1044] Ultimately, just something had to give.

[1045] And I felt like if I ruined my life over this, I believe very strongly in these principles.

[1046] And that way you're kind of the perfect person for it.

[1047] Well, you've bounced back from much worse.

[1048] Yes.

[1049] You've proven to be extremely resilient.

[1050] But, I mean, that was the thing that I was really worried about, though, right?

[1051] Because people had given me an enormous amount of grace after I left him, which shocked me. And you were afraid they'd be like, here she is again.

[1052] She's actually back at it.

[1053] Absolutely.

[1054] But now in a subversive liberal context.

[1055] Yeah, exactly.

[1056] And people have said that.

[1057] They have said that.

[1058] That I have exchanged homophobia for transphobia because this is just more acceptable now.

[1059] I felt like you stayed shockingly neutral.

[1060] To the point where at the very end, I thought, is she trying to get J .K. Rowling to think maybe away?

[1061] Like, it flipped for me in a beautiful way, really, where I was like, oh, I don't know what she thinks other than she thinks people should be able to have conversation and question their opinions.

[1062] You must have had to remind yourself of your intention nonstop, is my guess.

[1063] I was really trying to understand where people on all sides of this were coming from.

[1064] We made seven episodes.

[1065] There's more than seven hours upon it.

[1066] And only the last, like, four of the seven episodes really cover sex and gender.

[1067] We could have made so many more.

[1068] Like, I interviewed dozens of people.

[1069] Rolling was actually the first person I ever conducted an interview with.

[1070] Wow.

[1071] Which, by the way, great job.

[1072] And you had to ask a lot of very hard questions.

[1073] And I was quite impressed with your stalwartness, especially if that's not where you came from.

[1074] It's extra impressive.

[1075] Thank you.

[1076] It was very nice.

[1077] She was very open.

[1078] You can hear at the beginning of episode one, the first question about why do humans like stories about magic?

[1079] It seems like a weird place to start with us because it was like a warm -up question, like a throwaway question just to get us.

[1080] And then she gives a fucking.

[1081] masterclass.

[1082] Oh my God, I was crying.

[1083] She's the most well -spoken person I think I've ever heard talk.

[1084] I thought two things when she said that, it was like, one, we have to include this.

[1085] And two, I am definitely not smart enough to be doing this.

[1086] No. I would have had that thought, too.

[1087] The next question was going back to her life in the early 90s.

[1088] And I barely got out, I think, half of the question.

[1089] And she just opened up immediately.

[1090] She was very generous as a speaker, as a interlocutor.

[1091] She didn't know that it was my first interview.

[1092] And it was really set up as a conversation.

[1093] But I just think she was ready to talk.

[1094] So I didn't feel bad about asking all of those questions.

[1095] Yes, she was a very willing participant.

[1096] In fact, you have the sense that she's been dying to have a thoughtful, long, not 140 characters, nuanced, in -depth dive.

[1097] It was actually one of the really interesting things.

[1098] Like, I was watching all these old interviews that she gave.

[1099] She was accepting an award, I think, from the Penn Foundation.

[1100] I'm going to get this quote wrong.

[1101] But it was something like, you know, my critics at the time who were these, like, the Christian right, my critics are at liberty to claim that I am promoting witchcraft, and I am at liberty to claim that these stories are about human nature, or you're an idiot, depending on which side of the bed I woke up on.

[1102] And I felt like Twitter was getting the second kind of response from her.

[1103] And in our conversations, you can see there is a massive amount of background, her history of feminism, and all of those things that we go into so deeply in the show, I mean, those are things that I think, even if you still vehemently disagree with the positions that she's taken, knowing where she's coming from helps understand, like, why has she taken these positions?

[1104] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1105] Well, look, any project like this runs the risk of fueling the people you don't want to fuel.

[1106] That's what scares people, I think, a lot.

[1107] But I think one's full commitment to the truth has to be pursued regardless of how someone nefarious weaponizes it.

[1108] I don't think you cannot explore it because it could end up in the wrong hands.

[1109] That feels a little unethical in some way.

[1110] The fear that people experience, they don't even want to publicly explore what those ideas might be because they're afraid to give them any kind of power.

[1111] From my perspective, J .K. Rowling's positions, you can tell from the polling and stuff, a lot of people share the positions that she has espoused in living again and in this pluralistic society.

[1112] We can't just try to force a consensus.

[1113] And this is one of the things that Michelle Goldberg mentioned at the end of episode four.

[1114] the seeds of the backlash are contained in this effort to silence dissent, trying to force that consensus without having reached it organically.

[1115] People have to be persuaded.

[1116] So if you think they are wrong, just like with me, right?

[1117] It's so funny because sometimes people say, you're centering yourself, you are trying to make yourself the main character of reality.

[1118] And I would say, like, it's not about me. It is a human thing.

[1119] Like, we do not change our minds on our own.

[1120] It happens because we become persuaded somehow.

[1121] This is from a certain kind of person.

[1122] I would say, like, you're prioritizing bigots at the expense of their targets.

[1123] I come to this from a very practical perspective.

[1124] I never actually got to this.

[1125] The fourth step in my tent.

[1126] I was, you have to actually make the argument because even though all of those things I described were very powerful, the sense of shame that I started to feel, but I still felt like that sense of shame was wrong.

[1127] Westboro's understanding of the world was still very central in my understanding.

[1128] And it wasn't until they actually showed me what was wrong with Westboro's thinking and actually made the argument that I realized, oh, my God, we're wrong.

[1129] Your wrong isn't a persuasive counterclaim.

[1130] It's not enough.

[1131] You can say it, but if you actually want to persuade somebody, you have to actually make the argument offer an alternative that is more compelling.

[1132] And it sucks, by the way.

[1133] It's not fair, I would say.

[1134] It sucks that David, a Jewish man who is absolutely a central target of my church, is the one who had to persuade me. That sucks.

[1135] But it's also because of who he was, like, that was part of what made his argument so powerful.

[1136] His person was an argument against what Westboro was teaching me. Even in the show, one of the trans women you had on.

[1137] Natalie.

[1138] She was like, I'm exhausted.

[1139] Yeah.

[1140] And I get that.

[1141] It does suck.

[1142] It does suck for the people who have to give that patience.

[1143] It is hard and exhausting.

[1144] And I think for a lot of people, like, I don't have the end.

[1145] energy for that.

[1146] Absolutely.

[1147] I've always been very clear.

[1148] I don't think it is the obligation or responsibility of any particular person.

[1149] Whenever I talk about this, I'm talking about it in terms of this is the power.

[1150] Yes.

[1151] This is the potential.

[1152] And the more of us who are willing and able to engage, who have the space and the capacity, the better off all of us will be.

[1153] And it's not from a position, again, of like, shaming people who adopt a different approach or who take the, as rolling with like the urine idiot approach like it's totally human stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare well i imagine a lot of people will walk away from the witch trials of jk rilling thinking that it was in a way a trial of the current trans friction or whatever you want to call it but i actually think it's only an example of a much bigger issue which is it's a fight against binary thinking.

[1154] So if J .K. Rowling isn't in lockstep with you as a trans woman, any deviation makes her a transphobic person.

[1155] I might like 85 things.

[1156] And I'm not going to allow you to summarize me in a black or white because the world isn't binary.

[1157] It doesn't work that way.

[1158] We won't get anywhere with the binary model.

[1159] It's a zigzagging towards some future.

[1160] We're not even sure.

[1161] But in that dodging left, dodging right, dodging, left, dodging right, is this weird compromise of many different thoughts and ideas and just the notion that your only options all in or all out, I reject.

[1162] And I feel like this podcast, I was so infuriated many times listening to it.

[1163] I was very passionate about it.

[1164] I found myself having to check my passion and check my outrage and check all those things and try to navigate my own way through it.

[1165] You really hit the nail on the head there, though.

[1166] It is not just an indictment of one group or one way of thinking or one issue.

[1167] It is just an example of this very common human impulse.

[1168] Yeah.

[1169] I guess I got more frustrated with her opponents because it felt like believe everything I'm saying or you're the enemy.

[1170] And I found myself very confined by that.

[1171] But a lot of trans people agree and say this is complicated and there is nuance.

[1172] Well, that's why I said her opponents, just to be clear.

[1173] I want to very clear on this.

[1174] Yeah.

[1175] I mean, so Natalie and Noah in episode six, That was such a revelation for me, and not just those two, many other trans people we spoke to for the show, and also not for the show.

[1176] It was really fascinating to realize how much overlap there is in the actual positions, Natalie talking about sports and saying, this is actually a question I have.

[1177] Like, where is the line for fairness?

[1178] And it probably depends on what the actual sport is.

[1179] And then also Noah talking about the care for people who transition as young people.

[1180] We don't want to rush anybody through the transition pipeline, as Natalie put it.

[1181] There's a lot of overlap in the actual position.

[1182] It just seems like because of the way the conversation is happening and not happening, so much of the issue, I think, is a function of that, the lack of good faith conversation.

[1183] Noah, I absolutely loved.

[1184] I felt so much love and compassion for Noah, and I feel so certain that Noah is on the right path.

[1185] It's a big kaleidoscope, and the notion that we're going to split it into transphobic or pro -trans is preposterous and lazy.

[1186] It really impassioned me, but then I asked me, so why am I so heated about that?

[1187] it's a very American point of view.

[1188] Everything we're talking about here, the importance of public conversation, the importance of freedom of speech, and the idea that somebody would try to shut it down when it seems so clearly to us to be an important conversation that needs to be had, it's easy to get really riled up when it seems like people are using all kinds of tactics to shut it down.

[1189] The same thing we talked about with my TED Talk, right?

[1190] It's that sense of certainty that we feel that this is the right way and you guys are not doing it the right way.

[1191] I want to own my point of view, which is, my God, the thing I feel passionate about and would defend with my life the way you did about God at one point is democracy.

[1192] If we have that, if that's the foundation, everything else is navigable and we can improve.

[1193] Bionary thinking is anti -democratic.

[1194] It's not a compromise.

[1195] It's not the will of the people.

[1196] It's winner take all zero sum and it's completely destructive to democracy.

[1197] So I think that's why I got so impassionately.

[1198] claimed by this thing.

[1199] But I could be wrong.

[1200] I could totally be wrong.

[1201] There could be some other thing I'm not hyper aware of.

[1202] I guess I have one question for you, which is when you came here, they said Megan is happy to talk about how she came to do the job, anything about her.

[1203] She, A, which I agree, she doesn't want to be in a position to have to defend J .K. Rowling's position, which I would never ask you to do.

[1204] Again, I don't think you did that on the show.

[1205] No. So why we're just exploring it, yeah.

[1206] It's very neutral.

[1207] But if we agree from at least the supporter of the podcast being that self -censoring is an issue.

[1208] How have you decided that you'd rather stay out of any kind of declaration of your own position?

[1209] For me, the more I've dug into this, the more complicated of this.

[1210] Unless you feel certain about it.

[1211] Oh my God.

[1212] Yeah.

[1213] So I did not feel like I can litigate these issues.

[1214] That was not my role.

[1215] I'm not knowledgeable enough on all these issues.

[1216] And so even though I spent a ton of time interviewing people and asking a ton of questions that even as I was asking the question sometimes, I felt like I was violating some rule.

[1217] Yes, of course.

[1218] And these were people who would agreed to be interviewed.

[1219] I know that a lot of people who did not have somebody who agreed to be interviewed, how people feel, who self -censor, because they are afraid to face some kind of public backlash for saying the wrong thing.

[1220] Yes.

[1221] So it's not from a position of cowardice.

[1222] I just don't think I am the person to do that.

[1223] My role felt like I'm just asking the questions.

[1224] I'm trying to help people understand each other.

[1225] Right.

[1226] That felt like something that I could do.

[1227] Yeah.

[1228] And by the way, If someone's telling their position to you, and then J .K. can hear that.

[1229] It's not to her.

[1230] That right there already decompresses the whole situation by 80%.

[1231] It's like, oh, I'm just listening to these two people now.

[1232] This is kind of the hack of AA, which is you can't give anyone advice, really.

[1233] You can share your story.

[1234] Either there's some truth in it to that person or not.

[1235] People who are being told stuff are argued with.

[1236] We could watch them in an fMRI, a different area of their brain starts working.

[1237] So just the distance, perhaps, that you give in this to people.

[1238] I think they could hear perhaps different layers of the argument that they couldn't hear if it was being directed at them.

[1239] The show's been criticized in a few different ways, but one of them is it should have been more equal.

[1240] Half the episode should have been trans people.

[1241] But the thing is, we weren't doing that.

[1242] The show fails as a debate.

[1243] It was not a debate.

[1244] It's a much bigger story going back 30 years at this point.

[1245] Her history and this story of like how society has changed, how the internet and social media have changed public discourse.

[1246] There's so many things that we cover in this show.

[1247] It is a narrative.

[1248] And I remember listening to, do you know, John Ronson?

[1249] I love John.

[1250] We don't know any of the people.

[1251] We don't know anyone you know.

[1252] It's so embarrassing.

[1253] One of the things John talked about, because he made this show called Things Fell Apart, like the origins of the culture wars.

[1254] Really fascinating stuff, like how abortion became a culture.

[1255] Because it didn't used to be this huge wedge in the culture war.

[1256] But one of the things he talked about in this interview was essentially by taking it out of this debate mode and having it be a story that you're telling.

[1257] Like you said, it uses a different part of your brain.

[1258] It gets you out of the us, them.

[1259] You're preparing for like what argument are they going to be making and how is this argument wrong?

[1260] Well, you're busy crafting your response.

[1261] Exactly.

[1262] And so this is also partly what we were doing here is we are telling a story, a very human story that people hopefully could hear themselves in.

[1263] Well, and a very extraordinary story, really.

[1264] I mean, you're talking the most successful writer of all time.

[1265] She's been in obscurity for some period of time.

[1266] But I will say, yes.

[1267] People were screaming for marriage equality in a debate style, and it didn't move the needle.

[1268] It had been happening for 20 years, pretty impassioned and organized.

[1269] And then Will and Grace comes along.

[1270] That's the thing that moves the needle very quickly by 30, 40 % swing in the country because it's a story.

[1271] And Natalie Wynn talked about this in episode six.

[1272] The reality of gay people just coming out to their friends and family.

[1273] Like, we are not trying to groom your children.

[1274] We are not pedophiles.

[1275] We're not.

[1276] We are just people and we just happen to love people of the same sex.

[1277] And that is the thing that moved the needle, right?

[1278] You know, when Natalie said, that is the reality of, like, how tolerance and equality are one.

[1279] I think the same is true here.

[1280] Oh, yeah.

[1281] There was an incredible documentary called...

[1282] Which one?

[1283] The one about the woman who created the car company.

[1284] Oh, yeah.

[1285] I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

[1286] You would love it.

[1287] Complicated story.

[1288] The Lady in the Dale?

[1289] The Lady in the Dale.

[1290] He was a criminal.

[1291] On the run, took his family with him, transitioned as much as one could do in the 70s, arrived in L .A., starts this car company.

[1292] Crazy enough, Tucker Carlson's father, who was like an Orange County news reporter, becomes obsessed that he knows she is a heat.

[1293] Dedicates all these episodes of his show.

[1294] It's obsessed.

[1295] And watching her story, seeing what she dealt with, seeing this vitriolic attack and obsession with her by Tucker Carlson's father, knowing that she has to go to a prison with breasts in a male prison, how fucking dangerous is that?

[1296] I saw it and I was like, I'm so grateful to have observed that because I'm not friends with any trans women that I would have known that story personally from.

[1297] And then we had a trans historic expert on right after because now I wanted to know more.

[1298] But yeah, that little thing for me really kind of opened my eyes.

[1299] Or like Orange is the New Black, these little stories that we see and we recognize like, oh, this is a human being.

[1300] And how can we navigate the human.

[1301] conflicts, the willingness to listen.

[1302] It sounds so cliche, but the willingness to recognize that other people have come to different conclusions for a reason and the willingness to engage with those things publicly, openly, without just shaming them.

[1303] It's incredibly powerful.

[1304] Yeah.

[1305] And acknowledging like, this is one of the hardest rose one could hoe.

[1306] No one's picking this.

[1307] Yeah.

[1308] Well, picking this.

[1309] Yeah.

[1310] Because it's going to be a party.

[1311] Like, this is a brutal uphill, really, really hard life to navigate, and I have tremendous compassion for it.

[1312] I'm a fucking straight, six -foot -two white dude.

[1313] I had as good as a human can have it in America.

[1314] I'd have no fucking clue what it's like to be on the very opposite end of that power structure.

[1315] And you know how hard life is even for you.

[1316] Exactly.

[1317] I'm still a fucking addict.

[1318] And I had all the outward physical attributes that should ensure that I'll be happy in all these things.

[1319] Well, I got to say, the witch trials of J .K. Rowling, in a two -way tie for me, a favorite podcast I've ever listened to, that you and Dr. Death.

[1320] I don't know if you've ever heard Dr. Death.

[1321] I haven't.

[1322] I need to go.

[1323] Oh!

[1324] I'm trying to think is there's a parallel.

[1325] Do we think there's a thematic parallel at all?

[1326] Oh.

[1327] No. He was complicated.

[1328] He was an incompetent, raging addict spinal column surgeon.

[1329] Wow.

[1330] He was killing a lot of people.

[1331] The only doctor to ever go to prison for crimes committed in the operating room.

[1332] And it's so well done.

[1333] I recommend it highly.

[1334] Okay.

[1335] I'm definitely going to go listen.

[1336] I'm not seeing through lines.

[1337] Maybe in the back check all of Congress are.

[1338] Yeah, there's no, there's really no connected to you.

[1339] They're both just incredible.

[1340] We mentioned Andy Mills all these times.

[1341] I should also mention Matt Bull.

[1342] So it was the three of us, and all three of us have backgrounds as fundamentalist Christians.

[1343] And all of us eventually left.

[1344] And, oh, my God, Matt, like, if you listen to episode five, the way that he uses, like, the sound of those strings as we're going through the tweets, Matt is incredible.

[1345] The third genius behind all this?

[1346] Yes.

[1347] It did make me curious.

[1348] This obviously is open to.

[1349] to more witch trials as a concept as a like seasonable show it seems like there are many many other people who are currently on the sidelines you got some ideas back off the top of my head no I can't think of anyone who I'm like pining for them to be resurrected from the cancel dump but I guarantee if you were to tell me someone's personal story I find my way there yeah a question that I have is we have public condemnation and we have a way like if you violate the law right there's a path to redemption established obviously i think a lot of people have this question like how when you have somebody who has publicly misstepped or you know done something that people consider horrible what is that way back things have changed so much i really think that if i had left even two years later i don't know that i would have been embraced in the same way if anything this really demonstrates and exemplifies why we have law and order i mean truly this is why we have courts is why we have investigation because we're impassioned and we're punitive and we're vengeful yeah and we need systems that are better than us and our judicial system is better than us and our democracy is better than us and so we have to have these systems and so yes there isn't a system in place in the public opinion or the world of public anything it's just a fucking free -for -all it's the town hall meeting yeah i don't know how we get that but i don't even think we need to say if they missed up, someone truly fucks up and shits the bed, stands on a corner with a sign that says fags are going to hell.

[1350] Even that person probably deserves a second shot.

[1351] They may bring us the witch trials of J .K. Rowling at some point.

[1352] Well, it's been an absolute pleasure meeting you.

[1353] I really hope you will continue to do more work in the space because it's incredible.

[1354] Thank you so much.

[1355] That's so amazing to hear.

[1356] Yeah, I really hope everyone checks it out.

[1357] I've already been proselytizing about it now since I listened to it.

[1358] Have you become an evangelical?

[1359] I am.

[1360] Well, Megan, so nice meeting you, and I hope you'll come back when you make another incredible something.

[1361] I will do it.

[1362] Thank you so much, Tax and Monica.

[1363] Next off is the fact check.

[1364] I don't even care about facts.

[1365] I just want to get into your pants.

[1366] Hey, little guy.

[1367] Hi, big guy.

[1368] How are you doing, a little guy?

[1369] Well, do you think part of growing up when you're a girl and you like have dressed up your dolls your whole life that you just transition into the doll because you just walked in you have like some new fun shoes on and I've never seen it before oh I got them in Austin they're not new but you're right I don't wear them very often okay this could be my first time viewing yeah they could be and I just had this flash of like all day yesterday Lincoln was dressing up this little doll she had and she made roller skates for the doll then it had earrings and then I was just had this flash of like all day yesterday Lincoln was dressing up this little doll she had and she made roller skates for the doll then I had earrings and then I was just had.

[1370] having kind of a there's some overlap here well Lincoln is incredibly stylish oh that's good news I guess yeah she really is hard to navigate I tell her okay um and it's true she really can put together an outfit okay great Delta yes she's also very stylish but hers is a little more wacky wild you know what you're gonna get yeah isn't it maybe more just that she pulls off whatever she puts on maybe but it's more that it matches her personality There's some flair to it.

[1371] Yeah.

[1372] Yeah, yeah.

[1373] But Lincoln's is like put together.

[1374] Okay.

[1375] And it's really good.

[1376] I've lost touch of what's stylish, of course, as you know.

[1377] I don't know what size pants you're supposed to wear.

[1378] Everyone's, we're back to baggie, but I did that 93.

[1379] Yeah.

[1380] It's confusing.

[1381] It's a confusing landscape.

[1382] It really is.

[1383] Speaking of the fashionista, I just came from ASM, all school meeting.

[1384] Oh.

[1385] It was where the whole school gathers in the auditorium.

[1386] Okay.

[1387] And Lincoln had some speeches she had to make.

[1388] About what?

[1389] Well, they're celebrating Pride Month.

[1390] Oh, my God.

[1391] There was all sorts of activities and different.

[1392] Each class did a little something.

[1393] She had to speak in front of the whole school and the parents?

[1394] Yeah.

[1395] There weren't a ton of parents there.

[1396] We were among very few parents.

[1397] Wow.

[1398] Like, I don't think if your kid was speaking, you would have been there.

[1399] If they weren't speaking.

[1400] Yeah.

[1401] There was probably all the speaking duties were split up between five or six kids.

[1402] And she was one of them.

[1403] She had practiced a lot.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] That's scary.

[1406] Yeah, she did a great job.

[1407] Oh, my God.

[1408] Oh, I'm proud of her.

[1409] That's scary.

[1410] It's starting to really, I'm starting to accept the fact that she's going to do exactly what I did.

[1411] Oh, you think.

[1412] Yes, yes.

[1413] Because when we got home yesterday from New York, she had prepared two songs to sing for us to welcome us home.

[1414] And one of them I had never heard.

[1415] And she did such a great job and she was really sparkly.

[1416] And I was watching her and I thought, you know, we're going to be watching her do all kinds of things.

[1417] That's exciting.

[1418] I got really excited.

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] I was like, however fun it was for me to be in things, this seems way more fun.

[1421] Yeah.

[1422] I do think I'd like you to turn on the AC.

[1423] Oh, wonderful.

[1424] Yeah, you're getting a little shiny.

[1425] Yeah, I'm sweating.

[1426] Yeah, let's get that.

[1427] Finally, I'm sweating in the attic.

[1428] Yeah, it's well.

[1429] Welcome to the club.

[1430] That's because I walked here.

[1431] I've been waiting for you to ask to put the air on for five and a half years.

[1432] We finally did it.

[1433] And I think I know why.

[1434] I had something bad happened to me. When?

[1435] This weekend?

[1436] Well, I was sick this weekend, but that's neither here nor there.

[1437] Okay.

[1438] What kind of sick?

[1439] Cold.

[1440] A cold.

[1441] Yeah, but just zero energy.

[1442] Oh.

[1443] I'm sorry to hear that.

[1444] It's okay.

[1445] I'm better now for the most part.

[1446] heart except okay so so maybe it's because i'm wearing these thick socks you big green wool socks with your black high heel they're not high heel austrian shoes they're a boutique of it and it's a luxury brand um but they're vintage so sustainable it kind of looks like when men try to pull off shoes with lifts in them oh they all end up looking like those a little bit yeah Okay.

[1447] So last week, I think, yeah, last week, I had a physical, regular, yearly physical, very important to me to do.

[1448] Normally I do it in January, top of the year.

[1449] Oh, okay.

[1450] But I've switched doctors to a new doctor that's walkable, which is the dream.

[1451] I mean, that is.

[1452] That's insane, yeah.

[1453] It is.

[1454] I might offer up some space in my yard for a doctor to set up its practice free of charge as long as I can see she or he.

[1455] That's even closer if it's at your house.

[1456] In your house, yeah, yeah.

[1457] I mean, if it's at your house is closer.

[1458] Oh, yes, yes.

[1459] Because I assume I can use this doctor's true.

[1460] Of course, yeah, yeah.

[1461] It's doors open.

[1462] Okay.

[1463] So Cedars urgent care, but upstairs is our real practice, real Cedars practice.

[1464] And if you don't live in Los Angeles, Cedars is the Primo.

[1465] Yeah, it's nice.

[1466] Dr. It's where I get all my medical work done.

[1467] Yeah.

[1468] UCLA is also quite.

[1469] Yeah.

[1470] It's even further, though.

[1471] Right.

[1472] So I had to make my appointment in January.

[1473] I thought I could go.

[1474] But no. This was the early.

[1475] Yes.

[1476] The earliest was June.

[1477] So clearly they're meeting a demand.

[1478] Yeah.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] Anyway, I go, great doctor.

[1481] I plug the podcast.

[1482] Oh, at the doctor's office.

[1483] Oh.

[1484] Well, he asked what I did.

[1485] Oh, okay.

[1486] And so.

[1487] And you advised him to listen to you.

[1488] Well, he said, oh, I'm going to listen.

[1489] He was excited, which hopefully means I can get in more.

[1490] I had a similar thing on a rooftop.

[1491] Oh.

[1492] Earmark.

[1493] Earmark.

[1494] So anyway, I got my blood work done.

[1495] It seemed fine.

[1496] Mm -hmm.

[1497] I'm great at giving blood.

[1498] Never faint.

[1499] Mm -hmm.

[1500] Then, you know, they send you a thing.

[1501] you have a note in your inbox, whatever.

[1502] Yeah.

[1503] They keep sending it and sending it.

[1504] And I knew it was just the results, and I didn't really care.

[1505] But then on Friday, I guess.

[1506] Can I guess what happened?

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] Really elevated white blood cell count.

[1509] No. But that would have been.

[1510] I had that recently.

[1511] You did?

[1512] Yes.

[1513] And it was from this crazy cold I had that I couldn't get rid of for like three weeks.

[1514] But that's really scary.

[1515] I know it's a sign of cancer.

[1516] Yeah.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] But it's fine.

[1519] You took it again?

[1520] I didn't take it again.

[1521] Jacks.

[1522] Oh, my God.

[1523] No, they were, everyone was totally satisfied with the notion that I had been sick.

[1524] Okay.

[1525] The doctor that's going to be in your backyard is going to be better.

[1526] Okay.

[1527] And it's going to tell you to come back in a couple weeks and get it.

[1528] You need to go back.

[1529] All right.

[1530] We can go together and here, you'll, so this is why.

[1531] So I look, and I have a history of a little bit elevated cholesterol.

[1532] Uh -huh.

[1533] genetically.

[1534] Yeah, same, same.

[1535] Yeah.

[1536] No matter how I eat.

[1537] It's high.

[1538] Yeah.

[1539] And, you know, even when I was a kid, it was.

[1540] So I've been, quote, monitoring it my whole life.

[1541] Yeah.

[1542] My mom once told me not to worry about it because my LDL was very high.

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] Which is the good cholesterol.

[1545] H .D .L. Right?

[1546] I think high density is the good one.

[1547] Okay.

[1548] Okay.

[1549] Whatever the good one was.

[1550] Right.

[1551] You had a lot of the good one.

[1552] Yeah.

[1553] A bad one wasn't that bad for a long time.

[1554] then some years ago I went in once and it was high and my triglycerides were high Okay double whammy Yeah and they were like This is not great Like you need to whatever So that was a long time ago I haven't had any issue since I look at the numbers And at the top it says That I need to retake the test Because basically the numbers Seem weird Okay My cholesterol is like off, it's so high.

[1555] Okay.

[1556] And my triglycerides, this is not a joke.

[1557] It said, it's supposed to be under like 150 or something.

[1558] Uh -huh.

[1559] It was 600 and something.

[1560] Oh, my God.

[1561] Four X. The four X the top.

[1562] I. Where does one get most of their triglycerides?

[1563] Like bad shit.

[1564] Shitty food.

[1565] Yeah.

[1566] And no zero.

[1567] movement, basically.

[1568] Okay.

[1569] And he kind of was saying this looks so weird that it must be a little wrong.

[1570] Okay, sure.

[1571] But I think it might be right.

[1572] Well.

[1573] And I am panicked.

[1574] Also, it makes no sense.

[1575] I'm going to have a heart attack at any second.

[1576] I mean.

[1577] But look how opposite we are.

[1578] Like, your doctor said it's probably just an error.

[1579] And you're like, no, it's ruined.

[1580] Mine was like, yeah, it's probably the white blood so you don't have cancer.

[1581] I'm like, great.

[1582] Yeah.

[1583] Yeah.

[1584] Yeah, but also mine is saying we have to retake it.

[1585] He's not just like, oh, it's probably, but probably fine.

[1586] Anyway, so then I panicked.

[1587] And of course, I was looking up what causes this.

[1588] Uh -huh.

[1589] Really fatty foods, no movement, alcohol.

[1590] Oh.

[1591] And I, uh -oh.

[1592] Yeah.

[1593] I feel, uh -oh about that.

[1594] I also had just come back the next day.

[1595] day.

[1596] It was the next morning after the sexy bachelor.

[1597] I mean, the sexy baby shower.

[1598] Uh -huh.

[1599] So I wondered if maybe that...

[1600] You spiked it on the weekend?

[1601] Yeah.

[1602] Yeah.

[1603] I don't know how long it takes it to accumulate.

[1604] Me either.

[1605] I don't know, but now I'm panicked and trying to be healthy, even though I...

[1606] I'm healthy.

[1607] No, I am.

[1608] These numbers are someone who...

[1609] They're for someone else.

[1610] They're for someone who bought that chair and lives in it.

[1611] Okay.

[1612] All right.

[1613] Well.

[1614] I mean, really.

[1615] I hear you.

[1616] First, let me empathize with you and say that I too have been plagued with high cholesterol.

[1617] And even when I was vegan for a whole year, it didn't go down.

[1618] Yeah.

[1619] So for me, it's very genetic.

[1620] Couple positives, right?

[1621] So I went and had that crazy heart test where they put all the dye in your heart.

[1622] Yeah.

[1623] And I had zero percent plaque.

[1624] Right.

[1625] And then I had my carotid artery.

[1626] ultrasound to see if I had any plaque in there.

[1627] And I had a tiny bit, but nothing high.

[1628] How do they get it out?

[1629] They don't.

[1630] You still have plaque in there?

[1631] Now listen, had I had zero plaque in there, my doctor was like, ignore your cholesterol.

[1632] Yeah, you have high cholesterol, but it's not doing any of the things that high cholesterol do.

[1633] We would see it at this point.

[1634] You're 48 in your heart is, you know, 0 % plaque.

[1635] So you could end up doing those.

[1636] test and find out that it doesn't really matter in your case.

[1637] I had a tiny bit of plaque in my carotid, so anyways, I decided to try to lower mine.

[1638] But I will tell you this.

[1639] I don't mean to sound like an anti -Western.

[1640] I didn't want to be on a stat.

[1641] A stamp.

[1642] Me either.

[1643] Which is totally stupid.

[1644] Listen, every doctor I talked to is like, it's overall good for your body.

[1645] But for whatever reason, I had some bizarre.

[1646] Every time I would try to take it, I'd just stop.

[1647] I didn't want to take it.

[1648] Yeah.

[1649] But I have switched through my hormone doctor to take you.

[1650] to red yeast right rice red yeast yeast red right whatever it's a capsule it's rice yeast that's red okay I was on that for a month and it lowered my cholesterol by like 75 points it does the same thing as a statin but it's really yeah so you should definitely start taking that because that's not that's no what I take two of them before bed and it and it really really lowered my cholesterol significantly.

[1651] I have an added issue of my good cholesterol, which I think is the HDL, what I could be wrong, someone will correct me, is limited when you're on testosterone.

[1652] For whatever reason, testosterone lowers your good.

[1653] Oh, wow.

[1654] Yes, which I'm not getting off testosterone.

[1655] So then I had to start trying to add more good cholesterol.

[1656] I see.

[1657] Yeah.

[1658] Interesting.

[1659] Yeah.

[1660] Anyway.

[1661] But I don't remember, I think my triglycerides or whatever have ticked ticked above the range, but never even 10%, never even 10 % above the range.

[1662] Triclycerides are actually, they're the worst.

[1663] They're the big offenders.

[1664] Like that's the thing that they really look at.

[1665] Like if your cholesterol is not great, they'll look at your triglycerides.

[1666] And if those are fine, they don't care as much.

[1667] Okay.

[1668] But considering mine were 600.

[1669] Well, let's see.

[1670] When did you already give blood again?

[1671] No. And had you fasted the way you were supposed to?

[1672] Okay.

[1673] So that was the thing he said.

[1674] We need to redo this while you're fasting.

[1675] And I was like, I was.

[1676] You were?

[1677] Yeah.

[1678] So.

[1679] Well, let's see what the next test says.

[1680] I, are you in a panic?

[1681] I'm not in a panic.

[1682] It's scary, though.

[1683] It said in one to two weeks do it.

[1684] I think they want to give it a second.

[1685] I don't.

[1686] I don't know.

[1687] Well, let's get some more olive oil on your diet, though.

[1688] Do you already have a lot of olive oil?

[1689] Yes.

[1690] This is, when I was really breaking it down, I, I truly, it does, it does.

[1691] And then I, I was panicking a little bit because I can be better, of course, but I, I, I do pretty good.

[1692] Now I'm, now I'm like disordered eating since Friday.

[1693] Right.

[1694] You're on tilt.

[1695] Yes, I am.

[1696] And I, and I hate that.

[1697] Like, I have, this is a smoothie.

[1698] Oh, good.

[1699] I hate smoothies.

[1700] Yeah, but look good.

[1701] No, but.

[1702] Good, good, good.

[1703] Some people get that news and then it puts them in the opposite spiral, but I'm defeated, I can't do anything right, who gives the fuck, I'm already going to die.

[1704] You know, it goes the other way for people.

[1705] So this is, I'm grateful that it's gone to the, well, I, skew your test now.

[1706] That's actually, so yes, I am all, I don't know what to do because I don't want to do that.

[1707] I kind of want to be normal.

[1708] You don't want to rig the test.

[1709] Yeah, because what will happen is I'm going to eat so clean and I'm not going to drink any alcohol.

[1710] then the test is going to be great.

[1711] And I'm going to...

[1712] Did you not drink alcohol this weekend?

[1713] Well, I was sick.

[1714] You were sick.

[1715] So it was easy.

[1716] Yeah.

[1717] But I want to drink it this week.

[1718] Of course, yeah.

[1719] It's a little guy's a little helper.

[1720] So I don't want to...

[1721] Well, okay, that's sort of a lie.

[1722] I did drink.

[1723] Yeah.

[1724] God.

[1725] I know.

[1726] I know.

[1727] Oh, God.

[1728] You didn't go.

[1729] You didn't.

[1730] for long.

[1731] You only lied for like 25 seconds.

[1732] Oh, my God.

[1733] Oh, my God.

[1734] Put the air on a colder.

[1735] I'm spiraling out.

[1736] I don't know what to do.

[1737] Okay.

[1738] Okay.

[1739] I ate so healthy.

[1740] Yeah.

[1741] I really did.

[1742] Yeah.

[1743] Like, like, yes, in a way that is not sustainable.

[1744] Right.

[1745] And then I made all these muffins and I just stared at them.

[1746] Like, this is bad.

[1747] Because they were going to lower your cholesterol?

[1748] No, because I felt like I have to make these.

[1749] Some thing happened in my brain where I was like, I must make these blueberry muffins.

[1750] I was like craving them like crazy.

[1751] Yeah.

[1752] But then I made them and then I just stared at them.

[1753] Because they had cholesterol.

[1754] Yes.

[1755] Oh, boy.

[1756] And I was like, this is bad.

[1757] None of this.

[1758] This isn't good for me mentally.

[1759] Yeah.

[1760] So all the muffins are just sitting on this beautiful cake dry.

[1761] I haven't eaten any of them.

[1762] She had them out to your neighbors.

[1763] That's a lie, too.

[1764] I had one bite of one muffin.

[1765] These triglycerols are really messing with your sense of honesty.

[1766] No, they're, oh, my God.

[1767] I just forgot.

[1768] I did have one bite of one muffin and then I threw it away.

[1769] We wasted it.

[1770] It all felt bad, disordered.

[1771] Right.

[1772] This feels disordered.

[1773] I don't think this is healthy.

[1774] But anyway, so everything I ate was super healthy minus the one bite of the muffin.

[1775] Uh -huh.

[1776] And then yesterday night, while I was cooking, I really wanted wine.

[1777] And it's kind of Pavlovian, I realize.

[1778] Like, when I'm in the kitchen and I'm cooking, I, like, need it.

[1779] Yeah, yeah.

[1780] Sure.

[1781] Yeah, it's habitual.

[1782] And I kept saying, you just drink water instead.

[1783] By the way, I had a. similar association yeah and it's what would kind of oh my god i was always coming always coming off of a disastrous weekend right and then i could get through monday and tuesday with some shame and not do anything by wednesday and i cooked every night too because it was broke yeah i would go you're allowed to have beer while you're cooking yeah a couple three beers while you're cooking but then you get a little buzz from that and then i have three more and then so Wednesday night I drink a six -pack and then Thursday night I drink a 10 10 of them and then Friday we're fat right back in the ring yeah well I don't have that right right but I just remember the cooking in the in the couple Amstel lights yeah oh is it imperative it is it makes cooking so fun it's so interesting like having had that that crazy emotional attachment to it yeah and the notion that It can't be done without it.

[1784] It really can't be.

[1785] You have that feeling.

[1786] Like, I can't do it.

[1787] I don't want to do it without that.

[1788] Yeah.

[1789] And then to be on the other side of it was like, no. You can.

[1790] Yeah.

[1791] You do it again and you can, you know, totally forget as well that that was even part of it.

[1792] Well, the night before I had.

[1793] I also made dinner.

[1794] Uh -huh.

[1795] You're just too sick.

[1796] But yeah, I think I was sick enough that I didn't want it.

[1797] You were distracted enough.

[1798] And I thought, oh, good.

[1799] Like, I don't have to have this.

[1800] Look, I proved it.

[1801] Yes.

[1802] No problem.

[1803] But then the next day, I wanted it.

[1804] And I kept saying, no. Yeah.

[1805] That also felt disordered.

[1806] Like, you can't have it.

[1807] Now you're white knuckling it.

[1808] Yeah.

[1809] Like, you need to go to a meeting to not cook.

[1810] Exactly.

[1811] Exactly.

[1812] And I, but I had to cook because I had to be healthy.

[1813] Right, right.

[1814] So we're in this catch -twice.

[1815] Reverse engineer.

[1816] Yeah.

[1817] So I decide, okay, I'm going to have, I have these tiny wine glasses.

[1818] Uh -huh.

[1819] So I thought, I'll pour one of those smaller.

[1820] I don't know how much it is, though.

[1821] So I pour it.

[1822] And then I'm cooking, I'm drinking it.

[1823] But every time I take a sip, I'm like, oh, God, should I be drinking that?

[1824] You know, I'm, but I want it, but I don't know if I want it.

[1825] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1826] And then I finish everything and I'm staring at the wine.

[1827] wine glass, and then I go and I get a shot glass, and I measured how much I had.

[1828] Okay.

[1829] Again, all this is - It sounds totally normal.

[1830] I know.

[1831] This is not a good weekend.

[1832] So I measured it, and I had about three ounces.

[1833] Okay.

[1834] Which then felt fine.

[1835] What's a normal pour at the bar?

[1836] Six, four or six?

[1837] Six.

[1838] Because then, of course, then I look on.

[1839] line how many calories is a glass of saviant blanc yeah and that's done by six ounces okay that's the standard yeah but then like at some restaurants i think they give you 20 ounces oh my god that's what i would want pint glass full of basically anyway all this ends and i'm spiraling out i'm measuring the fucking wine this is a disaster i ordered a smoothie for the next morning okay listen to some podcast about amino acids.

[1840] I mean, this is so bad and this is so unsustainable.

[1841] But, oh, yeah, one thing when I was pouring the wine, I thought what Rob said.

[1842] Like, I can't fully change my diet for this test.

[1843] Right.

[1844] I need to be able to measure my normal.

[1845] Your real life.

[1846] Yeah.

[1847] To know if you need some permanent adjustments.

[1848] Mm. Well, that's a bit of a bombshell.

[1849] I know.

[1850] Sorry that happened.

[1851] What do I do?

[1852] Well, you take the test again and see how bad it really is.

[1853] But what do I do for the next week and a half?

[1854] Like, do...

[1855] I think you live normal because this is...

[1856] You're trying to evaluate whether you need to make some life changes.

[1857] And if you are perfect this week and that goes back to normal, what...

[1858] How are you going to in good, conscious, resume?

[1859] Exactly.

[1860] It could be just as bad the following week.

[1861] So I think you've got to live how you live.

[1862] Okay.

[1863] And find out if you need to make some adjustments.

[1864] But what if I have a heart attack?

[1865] I doubt you'll have one between now and...

[1866] Next week.

[1867] I mean, if my triglycerides are really 600 something, I'm due any second for a heart attack.

[1868] Mm. Oh, my goodness.

[1869] You've lost your motor control.

[1870] Oh, my God.

[1871] Is that because of the triglycerides?

[1872] I just spilled.

[1873] I just spilled tea.

[1874] You don't even know how to do this movie.

[1875] That was, that's tea.

[1876] Oh.

[1877] Okay, earmarked the guy.

[1878] Yes.

[1879] About the podcast.

[1880] Yes.

[1881] the rooftop.

[1882] I was at a wedding last weekend.

[1883] And a guest of the wedding, who I didn't know, was telling me, you know, I have listened to your podcasts so many times.

[1884] And I go, oh, that's great.

[1885] And he said, yeah, I just, I relistened to that episode.

[1886] And I said, oh, what episode?

[1887] And he said, of Smartless.

[1888] I love Smartless.

[1889] Oh, Lord.

[1890] And I have listened to your episode.

[1891] multiple times.

[1892] Oh.

[1893] And I said, well, why don't you just listen to my podcast?

[1894] Yeah.

[1895] Which we spoke a lot about.

[1896] And if you liked me so much on that podcast, maybe listen to my own.

[1897] My own podcast.

[1898] And he was like, oh, what's it called?

[1899] And I was like, armchair expert.

[1900] But I just thought that was a little wild that you would listen to something several times because you liked the guests so much.

[1901] Right.

[1902] And then they talked about their podcast.

[1903] Are you sure?

[1904] You might not be doing a good job promoting us.

[1905] That's likely.

[1906] I do feel self -indulgent promoting.

[1907] But they were talking nonstop about it.

[1908] They were.

[1909] You know, they were really complimentary.

[1910] Maybe he got confused.

[1911] Maybe they thought when the boys were saying you're the king of podcasts, maybe he thought they meant like being on.

[1912] Like you're the best podcast guest.

[1913] Maybe.

[1914] But I think they were pretty specific about the success of this one.

[1915] Okay.

[1916] All right.

[1917] At any rate, it was just kind of funny.

[1918] Like, he just loved that episode, but yet didn't want more.

[1919] Interesting.

[1920] Yeah.

[1921] That was the earmarked story.

[1922] Well, I'm sorry I took up so much time with my health.

[1923] I got some news that's going to make you further upset.

[1924] I hate to say it.

[1925] But, again, I have to tell you.

[1926] Okay.

[1927] I did eat an Emily Burger twice in 24 hours.

[1928] But I have some updates for you.

[1929] you that's why i have to bring it up okay it's been four i'm having such a hard week yeah i know and it's monday this is and this isn't great either but listen you've had it between when you and i had it we had it five years ago yeah you start to wonder over the course of five years have i inflated this thing into something that it's not now going to live up to because i've been proselytizing for five years about this thing i know it holds you up fucking more than holds up so good it's so it's french onion soup burger i mean it is incredible yeah back to back had it for dinner then had it for lunch the next day god yeah am i what if i'm never allowed to eat that again of course you're allowed to eat that again i'll die i'll get a hard at times well also one meal's not going to fuck up your cholesterol seems like it's very fragile once every three of years.

[1930] I want it now.

[1931] You want it now.

[1932] Oh, yeah.

[1933] And then I forgot how great the broccoli salad is there.

[1934] No, remember?

[1935] Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[1936] You forgot or you never had it.

[1937] I never had it.

[1938] Right.

[1939] And then because recently when we talked about it, I said, and the broccoli salad.

[1940] I told you that it was really good.

[1941] You said, ew, like, why would anyone get that?

[1942] Yeah, waste.

[1943] cargo space When you're going to be pounded in the burgy And I said last time I was there I was with people who didn't eat burgers So they got that and that's why I tried it And it was so good It's outrageous It should not be that good For a broccoli salad I know I know Well that sucks for me But I'm glad that you enjoyed it Yes and I'm just glad for the burger That's what I mean Yeah and also If you recall when you and I were there It was $27 And I made a big stink about it when we order it.

[1944] Like, oh, my God, this better be a damn good burger.

[1945] Yeah.

[1946] $27.

[1947] And remember, three bites in, I said, this is the most undervalued hamburger in the world.

[1948] I would honestly pay $65 for this hamburger.

[1949] Yeah.

[1950] It's better than any rib -eye I've ever gotten at a restaurant, which I've spent a lot more than that on a rib -eye.

[1951] Yeah.

[1952] So they did move it up.

[1953] Now it's 31.

[1954] Okay.

[1955] But still very underpriced.

[1956] For some reason, okay.

[1957] You remember it always being 31?

[1958] I kind of remember it being in the 30s.

[1959] Okay.

[1960] What if they made it 65?

[1961] I'd buy it.

[1962] A lot of people would probably write me hate letters because I'm the one spearheading that.

[1963] So I just think it's a bargain at 31.

[1964] I'm hungry.

[1965] You are.

[1966] Because I can't eat.

[1967] Right.

[1968] You haven't eaten.

[1969] Okay.

[1970] One glass of wine?

[1971] Stop.

[1972] That's so mean.

[1973] Listen.

[1974] Okay.

[1975] This is all connected to something.

[1976] Okay.

[1977] How do I lay this out?

[1978] There is some stuff going on in the world that I think is bad regarding food.

[1979] Okay.

[1980] This just came to you in this moment or even mulling this over for a while?

[1981] I've been mulling it for a long time, actually, but I hit a new level.

[1982] I leveled up.

[1983] Okay.

[1984] This weekend.

[1985] I feel like there's people who are on these drugs that are making them changing their bodies.

[1986] Great.

[1987] Ozempic, Majorno, any A1C.

[1988] Yeah.

[1989] I mean, honestly, one that they're about to probably prescribe for me. Yeah.

[1990] And I have no problem with people being on it.

[1991] Great.

[1992] Go do that.

[1993] That is so fine.

[1994] If you've been struggling with weight and body issues and whatever, and this helps you, great, do it.

[1995] I really don't like the lies around it.

[1996] Okay.

[1997] I think it's just really bad for anyone consuming these people's content.

[1998] Right.

[1999] That they're being told, it is.

[2000] They're being told, just exercise a lot and I do this.

[2001] And no, you don't because you're taking a drug.

[2002] Again, which is fine.

[2003] But you just have to own that because it's not fair to people who are like looking to you for advice.

[2004] Well, okay.

[2005] So I can totally see why you feel that way.

[2006] I will say if I make it about me for a second.

[2007] So I think a lot of people, like I'm honest about being on testosterone.

[2008] Yeah.

[2009] I'm on testosterone.

[2010] Yeah.

[2011] Let me also say if you're a boy and you've not had kids, you cannot be on testosterone.

[2012] It fucks up your fertility.

[2013] Yeah, yeah.

[2014] You cannot be on testosterone until you've had kids.

[2015] That's what you desire to do.

[2016] Yeah.

[2017] And obviously a doctor should do it.

[2018] And I think there's an age appropriate.

[2019] I don't think 20 -year -olds need to be on it since whatever.

[2020] Yeah.

[2021] But there are a bunch, like, I am in photographs on my Instagram.

[2022] And there are probably a lot of dudes that are like, yeah, here's what his secret is.

[2023] Shoot up steroids.

[2024] And it's like, okay.

[2025] Well, yeah, I am on testosterone.

[2026] But I also do work out six days a week.

[2027] And I also eat 200 grams of protein a day.

[2028] I do a lot of stuff.

[2029] In addition, I think what's where someone could feel justified a little bit in this, and I do to some degree, which is like, if you think just shooting testosterone will make you look like me, do it, try it.

[2030] It won't.

[2031] You know, like it doesn't make your body look any certain way.

[2032] It'll help you keep muscle mass, and it probably increases your motivation.

[2033] actually exercise, but it will be the exercise in the diet, ultimately, that the testosterone has kick started.

[2034] Yeah.

[2035] That will result in these changes.

[2036] So I guess in some way, if anyone who would rule out anything I have to say simply because I'm on testosterone, wouldn't be fair either.

[2037] Mm -hmm.

[2038] I get that.

[2039] That's a really good point.

[2040] You know.

[2041] But I think if someone's like, how do you look like you look?

[2042] Yeah.

[2043] You'd say, I work out a ton.

[2044] I eat.

[2045] This is what I eat.

[2046] And I take testosterone.

[2047] Right, right.

[2048] You'd be really honest about that, yes, you are.

[2049] And that's right.

[2050] That's the recipe.

[2051] It's not just you work out.

[2052] And it's not just.

[2053] But just really quick.

[2054] So that's, I get it.

[2055] And I'm doing that.

[2056] So I'm not, not being honest about it.

[2057] Yes.

[2058] But I can see the fear being, if I say these three things, the only thing people are going to really do is take a shot in the buck because that's effortless.

[2059] Mm -hmm.

[2060] So of the three things I'm saying result in this physique, the easiest one is the one people are going to do.

[2061] And it's not going to create any change in them.

[2062] Well, yeah, but that's on them, right?

[2063] Like, that's not on you.

[2064] Yeah, yeah.

[2065] But it also feels a little, I guess when you know how they're going to interpret it, that also feels misleading.

[2066] Like, just taking this drug is not going to do anything for you.

[2067] So I don't know.

[2068] I agree.

[2069] Maybe say everything.

[2070] Just say everything.

[2071] Everything.

[2072] Again, I have no issue with people on it.

[2073] Great.

[2074] If that is working for you, amazing that there's something like that that can work for you.

[2075] But you have to say it.

[2076] Especially when you are pushing that narrative.

[2077] Like most of the time when people have secrets, they're not like leaning into talking about the thing that's going to make them lie about the secret.

[2078] It's so strange.

[2079] Although weirdly also a pretty good history of that.

[2080] I mean, you got all.

[2081] All the gay senators passing anti -gay legislation.

[2082] You got Bill Cosby shaming people for being sexual in movies.

[2083] Weirdly, I do think you end up getting drawn.

[2084] Like, you are subconsciously trying to out.

[2085] Compensating slash throwing people off the scent.

[2086] Yeah.

[2087] You're presenting the opposite way.

[2088] It feels psychologically fascinating to me when I see some of this stuff.

[2089] I find it like a case study in psychology.

[2090] You won't do it because we're too old.

[2091] You've passed the point where you would ever sit down and do it.

[2092] But if you read crime and punishment, it is the single most fascinating book, in my opinion, about psychology.

[2093] Yeah.

[2094] Because he kills somebody.

[2095] Yeah.

[2096] Or else Kalnikov.

[2097] And he just cannot stop himself from getting himself caught.

[2098] Oh, wow.

[2099] And you just go through the whole mental ride with him.

[2100] And it's so exact.

[2101] And you relate so much to all these things we do psychologically when we have some big secret.

[2102] Yeah.

[2103] It's pretty wild.

[2104] And semi -university.

[2105] I just don't think, I don't think that being on it should be a secret.

[2106] Right.

[2107] Like, there's no reason to make that secret.

[2108] Well, and I, and so part of me wants to just blame the people who are shamers and haters because that's who they're trying to avoid getting on their case by not just owning it, right?

[2109] Yeah.

[2110] And a lot of it's probably imagined because I think, I think I'm the only actor who says he's on testosterone.

[2111] And I know that many of us are.

[2112] Totally.

[2113] And nothing's really happened to me for me. saying it.

[2114] But I guess I had some fear about it.

[2115] I think I had the fear of like I don't want younger guys imitating me because I don't want young guys taking it because it's really bad for your fertility.

[2116] So it's this complicated.

[2117] I mean, I hear what you're saying about the shamers, but I think that there's more to it.

[2118] I think they want the credit.

[2119] Exactly.

[2120] And the feeling of like this willpower or discipline or there's something that happens with food we all are susceptible to this is why I'm saying this is what happened this weekend where I can sense this isn't good I'm slipping into that thing where you're pain exactly yeah I think this is all tied into that where it feels disordered a bit and I thought of it because someone had posted some stuff about food and I think in a very positive way was trying to break down diet culture and say like this is bad which it is of course but I did bristle a tiny bit because you know some people were like don't like something they had been told is don't eat the bread or whatever and I might not be able to eat bread next week like there's real truth to food some things.

[2121] Some food causes bad shit to go down in your body.

[2122] And so I don't like this idea of like completely bucking that system.

[2123] Well, that's my issue is like being simply anti -diet culture to me feels very silly.

[2124] Like to be so hating of this.

[2125] Now, if you have disordered eating, you feel like the world's telling you to do it.

[2126] Yes.

[2127] And so you're very sensitive to it.

[2128] Yes.

[2129] Well, and look, there are plenty of problematic talking points around food and diet.

[2130] There are.

[2131] And I believe that and a lot geared towards men and women.

[2132] But thin is better and all of those things.

[2133] That's not true.

[2134] I'm small.

[2135] Yeah.

[2136] And I have 600 triglycerides.

[2137] Well, yeah.

[2138] So it's not about that.

[2139] It is just, to me, it's about health.

[2140] And there is a reality about the food you take in.

[2141] and the exercise that you output and health.

[2142] They're related.

[2143] We can't act like they're not.

[2144] Right.

[2145] So, you know, it just gets, it gets...

[2146] No, scientifically speaking, there's really no arguing it.

[2147] I know.

[2148] Oh, no, I have a text from Honor.

[2149] She's probably asking if I want to get wine.

[2150] Uh -huh, most certainly.

[2151] I can't even read it.

[2152] Oh, my God.

[2153] I mean, yeah, I got to go to a meeting.

[2154] things have hit critical mass Um Okay Now this is for Who Megan Phelps Roper Ah I loved Megan Phelps Roper She sent me two books Oh What books?

[2155] I think the ones she referenced I brought one into New York I always bring a book with me Everywhere I go and I don't ever pull it out of my backpack I know It's like the extra weight I guess Yeah Yeah, there's the, I do that too.

[2156] And you know the guy with the sign?

[2157] It's an Instagram account, maybe a TikTok.

[2158] A meme.

[2159] Yeah, it's a meme.

[2160] It's this guy and he holds up a sign and, like, people change it and he changes it and stuff.

[2161] But there's a really funny one.

[2162] It's like, you're not going to read the book you brought on vacation.

[2163] Oh, that's good.

[2164] Which is really sad.

[2165] Yeah.

[2166] But you brought it and didn't read it.

[2167] I brought it and didn't read it.

[2168] Because I thought it was such a generous, nice kind thing that she followed through.

[2169] not only recommend it, but I'm going to make it easy for you to read.

[2170] That's very nice.

[2171] Timely, I read a headline today in the New York Times.

[2172] Oh, boy.

[2173] What?

[2174] The NHS, the National Health Service in England.

[2175] Yes.

[2176] Just today announced they are no longer going to give puberty blocking medicine to anyone not in a clinical trial.

[2177] They need more research.

[2178] Oh, interesting.

[2179] But they're doing trials or no. Yeah.

[2180] Yeah.

[2181] There are clinical trials.

[2182] Yeah.

[2183] But that is a reversal of the position.

[2184] Interesting.

[2185] Mm -hmm.

[2186] The NHS is like the populace.

[2187] Like if they decide something that kind of means this is how England feels about this.

[2188] Right.

[2189] I just, I think it's relevant.

[2190] Megan Phelps podcast and this NHS decision are definitely related.

[2191] Oh, you think like this caused that?

[2192] Yeah, I think that JK went down for a while.

[2193] Mm -hmm.

[2194] And now through that podcast in the New York Times saying that she was wrongly vilified, like the New York Times, too, the fucking basse on a liberal opinion.

[2195] Yeah.

[2196] They defended her recently.

[2197] Ah.

[2198] And now the NHS makes this decision.

[2199] To me, that signals, okay, the pendulum had swung.

[2200] Yeah.

[2201] See someone that was trying to nudge it back.

[2202] Yeah.

[2203] It nudged back.

[2204] Now, I don't have an opinion whether it's right or right.

[2205] I'm not on record.

[2206] I could care less.

[2207] But I think it's worth observing.

[2208] Yeah, that is interesting.

[2209] And I can say personally, op -ed section, I, first of all, Noah was so compelling from the podcast, the young man who had gone through the transition.

[2210] And I believe that he's made the right decision.

[2211] I really do believe he's made the right decision.

[2212] I think when you're a parent of a teenager and you find out the suicide rate is exponentially higher for kids with gender morphia, what they call it?

[2213] There's a technical.

[2214] Not gender, fuck what it's called.

[2215] Stop, but it's, fuck, what is it?

[2216] I knew it at the time of interviewing her and I've forgotten.

[2217] But the point is, is that the suicide rate is much higher.

[2218] So that to me, when you're picking between death and someone regretting, because the other fear would be that they would regret this decision and there'd be no going back.

[2219] I think that's what most people's fear is.

[2220] That's a pretty persuasive argument.

[2221] I would rather have my kid alive and regretting that decision than dead.

[2222] So I see the motivation.

[2223] I say, but what I would really, this is the bit of information I'm urging or begging for from the universe to give me is, is the suicide rate still exponentially higher post -transition?

[2224] Because if it doesn't actually adjust the suicide rate after you've had the procedure, then the first part of the argument now has fallen apart.

[2225] It doesn't really have an impact on whether or not the suicide, maybe the suicide rate stays as high.

[2226] I've never seen any data on that, and I would really like to know it because I think, That would be really helpful in making that kind of decision.

[2227] Yeah.

[2228] For a minor, of course, I'm only talking about minors.

[2229] Right, yes, yes.

[2230] No one needs to be involved in any adult's decision to do it.

[2231] But I would be curious for the minors.

[2232] There's probably not enough, we don't know yet.

[2233] Post -transition study cases.

[2234] Especially for minors.

[2235] Well, it wouldn't even have necessarily be for minors.

[2236] It would just be if the suicide rate for post -transition is the exact same as it is for people who want to transition.

[2237] They were adults.

[2238] They've lived a long, like, that's, I guess, part of the issue would be like they've lived so long.

[2239] Feeling it, like they're in the wrong body.

[2240] Yeah.

[2241] Uh -huh.

[2242] And that some trauma and damage has accrued during that.

[2243] Yeah.

[2244] I don't know.

[2245] Maybe that, I don't know.

[2246] I would just, I would really like to know that.

[2247] Yeah.

[2248] Does it solve the suicide problem?

[2249] Right.

[2250] If it does, then it's very compelling.

[2251] If it does nothing to the outcome, then that's really not part of the argument that's relevant.

[2252] Yeah.

[2253] Gender dysphoria.

[2254] Dysphoria.

[2255] Dysphoria.

[2256] Did David defeat Goliath with five smooth stones?

[2257] Yeah.

[2258] Oh, wonderful.

[2259] Okay.

[2260] You said that she was the most successful author in the world ever, in the whole planet.

[2261] Oh, my God.

[2262] Yeah, you said all that.

[2263] She's not.

[2264] She's not.

[2265] It depends on how we're defining it.

[2266] Okay.

[2267] But the top ten authors who make the most money.

[2268] Okay.

[2269] James Patterson is number one.

[2270] If you type in who is the most successful author of all time, he comes up a lot.

[2271] But, you know, and then list of bestselling fiction author is Shakespeare.

[2272] Oh, good for him, Bill.

[2273] Yeah, good old Bill.

[2274] Still crushing.

[2275] And then like Stephen King, Agatha Christie.

[2276] There's a lot.

[2277] But as far as, it says who made, oh, wait, wait, this is so confusing.

[2278] One says, who is the wealthiest author of all time, says, J .K. Rowling.

[2279] Mm -hmm.

[2280] Then, which authors make the most money?

[2281] This one has James Patterson number one.

[2282] She's number two.

[2283] Stephen King number three.

[2284] Well, I will say...

[2285] I don't even understand how that could possibly be different.

[2286] Well, one thing I could throw in that might complicate it is she's made X amount from the book sales, which has to be ginormous.

[2287] But also, she's probably had a percentage of all eight movies, which James Patterson isn't, Even if his things get made into movies, they weren't a billion -dollar franchise, each one of them.

[2288] That's true.

[2289] The Harry Potter film series, All In has got to be a $7, $8 billion affair that she probably had a chunk of.

[2290] And now there's going to be a TV show.

[2291] Oh, there is.

[2292] Oh.

[2293] So aside from the book sales, I'm sure she made a mint from the movies.

[2294] Yeah.

[2295] And James has written almost 180 books.

[2296] Right.

[2297] I think that's also the volume.

[2298] 180 books.

[2299] Where she's only written seven.

[2300] Well, no, that's not true.

[2301] She has others, but anyway.

[2302] Something's in my eye.

[2303] So triglyceride falling out?

[2304] I hope it's coming out.

[2305] Sweat it out.

[2306] Get like one or two out.

[2307] Okay.

[2308] Now, we talked, you said urban legends, you know, some urban legends are sticky and why.

[2309] There's a cool NPR that talks about it.

[2310] I'll cut to the chase, although this is really.

[2311] interesting.

[2312] I want to read it all, but I won't.

[2313] Leave us with a quick list of six principles of making an idea stick.

[2314] The first three are simplicity, unexpectedness, and concreteness.

[2315] Hmm.

[2316] Concreteness.

[2317] Yes.

[2318] So they use Kennedy's Man on the Moon speech as an example in this.

[2319] Okay.

[2320] And they say it was a simple idea.

[2321] It was incredibly unexpected.

[2322] Putting a man on the moon seems like science fiction at the time, but it was also incredibly concrete.

[2323] Nobody could quibble about man, moon, or decade, or what those terms meant.

[2324] The final three are credibility, emotional, and story.

[2325] Back to the JFK, it was credible because it came from the president, and it was an emotional story.

[2326] It appealed to the nation's sense of yearning for the next frontier.

[2327] What's our next zone of exploration?

[2328] And it was that powerful emotional mission that kept us captivated for the better part of a decade.

[2329] Okay.

[2330] That's all I'll read about it.

[2331] But those are the parts to make things stick.

[2332] If you're interested in making things stick.

[2333] Well, I'll just tell my AI to make it sticky when it writes everything for me. Yeah.

[2334] Yeah.

[2335] Put in this article.

[2336] Oh, that's a great.

[2337] You know, I'll have to start with that.

[2338] Okay.

[2339] She mentioned Derek Black, whose grandfather was David Duke, who also like left white nationalism.

[2340] Uh -huh.

[2341] And then she said she thought his dad all.

[2342] also started Stormfront, and that's correct.

[2343] She knew her stuff.

[2344] Yeah, she's very abreast.

[2345] Yes.

[2346] Oh, except, except.

[2347] Uh -oh, she had a little snag?

[2348] Godson, not grandson.

[2349] Godson.

[2350] Much different.

[2351] Yes.

[2352] Okay.

[2353] Wow, I just found that.

[2354] Mm. Mm. Just in time.

[2355] Whoa.

[2356] In the nick of time.

[2357] Ooh.

[2358] I want to make clear something that I think.

[2359] Hmm.

[2360] Okay.

[2361] Because, you know, we talked about how her grandparents were in the ACLU and lawyers and successful.

[2362] I don't think they were in the ACLU, but they were civil rights attorneys.

[2363] Oh, sorry.

[2364] Okay.

[2365] They were civil rights attorneys and they were really smart.

[2366] Mm -hmm.

[2367] Yeah.

[2368] And well -spoken and eloquent and all of those things.

[2369] Made great arguments.

[2370] And so is Megan?

[2371] Yeah.

[2372] And was when she was involved.

[2373] Uh -huh.

[2374] And so what I want to make clear my opinion is those qualities, they will enamel you for a while, sometimes forever.

[2375] They suck you in.

[2376] It's a weird cognitive hiccup to think that this person who's so smart and well -spoken and eloquent is saying something wrong.

[2377] Yeah, yeah.

[2378] It's hard for our brains to manage that.

[2379] Yeah, and I guess I...

[2380] Yeah, to have verbal dexterity.

[2381] doesn't mean to be on the right side of every argument.

[2382] Yes.

[2383] And I try to police myself on that.

[2384] Like, just because I'm very taken with the way somebody is expressing themselves.

[2385] Yeah.

[2386] I can try to separate it from what they're saying.

[2387] Yes.

[2388] Yeah, I will add my two cents.

[2389] My takeaway from this is I think a lot of people will process or frame her personal story as she was on the wrong side and found her way to the right side.

[2390] Mm -hmm.

[2391] And I don't think that's the message of her story at all.

[2392] I think it is always question your side.

[2393] Mm -hmm.

[2394] You know, she didn't join the perfect side, our side.

[2395] Yeah.

[2396] She joined a side.

[2397] And all sides have to be rigorously questioned and, you know, counterbalanced with criticism.

[2398] Yeah.

[2399] Often.

[2400] Yes.

[2401] I agree.

[2402] It should be more a story of like whatever your pocket you're going to be totally convicted on as culturally and societally in that, you know, you got to remember that when you have these total convictions on topics and we're wrong often.

[2403] Sure, sure are.

[2404] Sure are.

[2405] Well, that's it.

[2406] That's everything?

[2407] All right.

[2408] Well, I love you.

[2409] I think everyone will be really impatiently awaiting your next triglyceride report.

[2410] I know I'm now wanting you to go today.

[2411] Is there a medication for triglyceride?

[2412] I mean, probably some sort of statin or one of these, like, diabetes things.

[2413] I don't want to take any of those.

[2414] Yeah.

[2415] I think maybe it was the sexy baby shower.

[2416] Yeah, too sexy, too baby and too showery.

[2417] Yeah, it's too.

[2418] It's too, too indulgent.

[2419] Too indulgent.

[2420] Yeah.

[2421] Too sexy.

[2422] All right, I love you.

[2423] I love you.

[2424] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2425] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2426] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.