S1: Bonus Ep 4 - The Smile That Hides

[0] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

[1] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[2] We cloned his voice using AI.

[3] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode.

[4] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[5] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[6] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[7] As I track down clues.

[8] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[9] Hunting.

[10] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[11] Robert Fisher.

[12] Do you recognize my voice?

[13] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday.

[14] on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[15] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[16] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[17] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[18] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[19] Listen to the podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast, weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[20] This could be the craziest podcast pairing ever.

[21] The governor of California, Gavin Newsom and Super Bowl champ Marshaun Beast Mode Lynch are Politiccan.

[22] What does Politiccan even mean?

[23] There's bridge and gaps with no politics.

[24] Joined by their friend and agent Doug Hendrickson, it's going to be a wild ride.

[25] We can change the world.

[26] Podcast by podcasts.

[27] Listen to Politicin with Gavin Newsom, Marshaun Lynch, and Doug Hendrick.

[28] on America's number one podcast network.

[29] IHeart.

[30] Open your free IHeart app and search Politicking and start listening.

[31] Hi, everyone.

[32] It's Andrea Gunning.

[33] I know it's been a while, but today we are back with not just new bonus content, but with two major updates.

[34] First, we'll be back with season two of Betrayal starting May 18th, and we even have a sneak peek at the end of this episode.

[35] Second, Betrayal Season 1 is being turned into a documentary.

[36] More details on where and when it will launch, so stay tuned on the feed for updates.

[37] In the meantime, check out this bonus episode about an incredible organization.

[38] Jen, one of the best parts of doing the podcast is learning about the resources we didn't know about.

[39] And there's an organization called Sasko that really intrigues me. I had the opportunity a couple weekends ago to attend and I Will Survive Weekend, which was put on by the Sasko organization out of South Carolina.

[40] And it was a great weekend.

[41] One of the ways we spent our time was learning self -defense moves, specifically what were to happen if someone were to assault you or to come at you and attack you.

[42] And you brought some of the ladies back from the weekend?

[43] I wanted to bring back a little souvenir.

[44] So today, Shannon Henry and Brett Carney Brown of the SAS organization are here to talk to us about the five tactics predators used to break down their targets.

[45] Brett, can you share how SAS began?

[46] It really started because we have been working with survivors of violence for 17 years in a number of different ways.

[47] And we kept hearing the same three questions.

[48] One, why didn't I know that this could happen to me?

[49] Two, why didn't I know what to do when it did?

[50] And three, why didn't I know where to go for help?

[51] And that really was the beginning of what ultimately became the nonprofit because we wanted to make sure that everyone had the answers to those questions before anything ever happened.

[52] That makes total sense.

[53] Shannon, what was the idea that empowered you to do this?

[54] It wasn't until I took a self -defense course that I really felt like for the first time I could trust my mind and my body to recognize danger and hopefully end it before anything happened.

[55] and it gave me the tools to do that.

[56] So really, that was the impetus for me, was that empowerment.

[57] It's the prevention, which is super important.

[58] If we can keep people from having to experience this, that's what we want to do, first and foremost.

[59] But it's also making sure that systems and agencies and women and girls and families know how to intervene when it does happen and then how to get the response, the help that they need in the aftermath.

[60] Shannon, you have gone through your own personal experience with sexual assault.

[61] Would you mind sharing that story with us?

[62] Like any other teenage girl, I dated a guy, fell in love.

[63] I thought he was wonderful.

[64] We dated for about a year.

[65] He put me on a pedestal and made me feel special.

[66] He was older than me. And I always had this idea in the back of my mind that I was lucky to be with him.

[67] because he was somebody that other people wanted to be with as well.

[68] And he chose me. So one day after school, he asked me to come by and bring him a mountain dew to his place.

[69] I didn't want to go and I knew I didn't want to go, but I felt this disease to please.

[70] And so I thought, okay, I'll just go by, I'll drop it off.

[71] I'm not going to tell my mom where I'm going because she'd kill me if she knew I was going to his house by myself.

[72] But I did.

[73] When I walked in, things were different than they normally were there.

[74] It was loud and there were a few other people there.

[75] I also noticed that he had alcohol in his breath and so I said, you know, here's your drink.

[76] I've got to go, but I'll talk to you later.

[77] And he said, well, just wait a second.

[78] I want you to come back in my bedroom with me for just a second.

[79] I want to show you something.

[80] And I thought, I don't want to go back in his bedroom, but at the same time, this is my boyfriend.

[81] And I trust him and I love him.

[82] He loves me. We're fine.

[83] So I walked back in his bedroom and he shut the door and I can still see him turning the lock on it.

[84] And I remember looking at that and going, why is he locking the door?

[85] And then that's when he looked at me and he started to kiss me. But it was a kiss that wasn't about me and it wasn't about us.

[86] It was about him.

[87] And I didn't like it.

[88] I was very uncomfortable.

[89] And I pushed away from him and I said, look, I've got to go.

[90] And he grabbed my wrist and it hurt.

[91] And he said, get on the bed or that's next.

[92] And beside the bed was a hunting knife.

[93] And I remember thinking, there's no way he's going to hurt me. But I was scared enough to lay down on the bed and not make a noise.

[94] And he did with me what I didn't want to do.

[95] And then he stood me up and he opened the door and kissed me on the cheek and said, how fun it dance.

[96] And I walked out.

[97] I remember just being totally in a fog.

[98] And as I looked to my right, there were three people that I knew well from high school.

[99] And they all high -fived each other as I walked out, as if it had been planned before I got there.

[100] And I got in my car.

[101] I went to dance.

[102] I didn't say a word.

[103] I went home.

[104] I got in the bed and I cried myself to sleep.

[105] and I never talked about it again.

[106] In my mind, I was already turning in -word and blaming myself.

[107] I was in dance clothes.

[108] I shouldn't have gone there.

[109] I knew better.

[110] Like, what was I doing?

[111] And so that started a spiral.

[112] I turned to drugs and alcohol and boys to self -medicate because I was only 16.

[113] But eventually, I got the help that I needed.

[114] And that was a turning point for me. But it wasn't until I took that self -defense class that I really felt like I could trust my mind and my body again and fight for myself if I needed to.

[115] And I said, you know, if you left your purse out and somebody stole your wallet, it's not because you left your purse out.

[116] It's because there was a thief in the room.

[117] So nothing that I did that day should have resulted in my rape, except that there was a rapist in the room.

[118] Shannon, thank you for sharing that it was difficult to hear as a fellow survivor, to be honest.

[119] Drey, you've never brought this up before.

[120] I know.

[121] I don't really talk about it.

[122] I think that the one thing that I'm just kind of reckoning with is the fact that you can kind of define and look at this behavior after the fact.

[123] But these perpetrators and these predators are so good that the red flags are usually not even there.

[124] Like, in my case, I wasn't picking up these character traits in the moment.

[125] You would never know.

[126] This was your boyfriend, Shannon.

[127] This was your husband that you knew from college, Jen.

[128] Shannon, I think one of the words that can describe my ex -husband's behavior is predatory.

[129] What are some of the tactics that these predators use?

[130] Spencer was using what we call the top five predatory tactics.

[131] The first one is what we call the smile that hides.

[132] Nobody can come into your world unless you invite them in.

[133] And these predators know that.

[134] And from the time we're little, when somebody smiles at us, it means what?

[135] That they like you.

[136] They're approachable.

[137] Yeah.

[138] And so in that way, they start to build the trust with you.

[139] And it seems like a welcoming environment.

[140] And so they use that.

[141] And there's something that we call charm that they use.

[142] And charm is not something that we're born with.

[143] It is a mechanism we use in order to get what we want.

[144] And so when we look at what Spence did, there was a point in there when Jen, your friend said, I wanted to come to you, but he was just so charming.

[145] And I think that's a clear indicator right there of just how charming he was.

[146] And part of the reason he was such a beloved and decorated teacher was because he was charming to not only her, but to students and faculty and staff so that he could be perceived as trustworthy and somebody that you would want to be around.

[147] And embedding himself in the community, that's something we see over and over again.

[148] So the second thing that happens is something called forced teaming.

[149] So it's a way to build a camaraderie and to kind of gain some trust.

[150] And in order to do the things that he wanted to do, he had to gain trust.

[151] We listened to your former friends.

[152] We listened to your former friends.

[153] talk about how he would talk to her about soccer.

[154] It happened so slowly.

[155] Finding things that were similarities between us, like I played soccer, you know, he played soccer.

[156] I coached, he coached.

[157] So early conversations would be, you know, when we run into each other, like, oh, how's the game or how's coaching or, hey, coach, you know, certain things that were not necessarily flirtatious, but getting to know me and my family, and, you know, making me feel comfortable with him over time.

[158] They turn what would be a normal conversation of a I like to do this to a we like to do this because you want to form that bond between the two of you to further build trust.

[159] It killed me in his letter when he said, dear villagers, that's a we.

[160] We're all in this together.

[161] This is our village.

[162] Then he said, thanks for being such a. good friends to Jen.

[163] And that was another way for him to create the we, where none existed.

[164] I never thought about it like that.

[165] I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

[166] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[167] We cloned his voice using AI.

[168] In 2001, police say I killed my family.

[169] First mom, then the kids.

[170] And rigged my house to explode.

[171] In a quiet suburb.

[172] This is the Beverly Hills up the valley.

[173] before escaping into the wilderness.

[174] There was sleet and hail and snow coming down.

[175] They found my wife's SUV.

[176] Right on the reservation boundary.

[177] And my dog blew.

[178] All I could think of is going to sniper me out of some tree.

[179] But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[180] For two years.

[181] They won't tell you anything.

[182] I've traveled the nation.

[183] I'm going down in the cave.

[184] Tracking down clues.

[185] They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere.

[186] If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[187] Searching for Robert Fisher.

[188] One of the most dangerous fugitive.

[189] in the world.

[190] Do you recognize my voice?

[191] Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation.

[192] Today.

[193] And a disappearing act.

[194] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[195] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know and those you'll be hard pressed to forget.

[196] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[197] Gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meet in the world.

[198] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[199] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[200] This could be the craziest podcast pairing ever.

[201] The governor of California, Gavin Newsom and Super Bowl champ Marshaun Beast Mode Lynch, our Politicking.

[202] What does Politiccan even mean?

[203] There's bridge and gaps with no politics.

[204] joined by their friend and agent Doug Hendrickson.

[205] It's going to be a wild ride.

[206] We can change the world podcast by podcast.

[207] Listen to Politiccan with Gavin Newsom, Marshawn Lynch, and Doug Hendrickson on America's number one podcast network.

[208] Iheart.

[209] Open your free IHard app and search Politiken and start listening.

[210] Then we go into number three, which is too many details.

[211] So perpetrators often give too many details when they're covering their tracks.

[212] And the reason they do that is because they know.

[213] know that what they're saying is a lie.

[214] But they have to convince you that what they're saying is not a lie.

[215] So they go on and on giving you so many details to where it sounds convincing.

[216] And unless they see on your face that you believe them, they'll keep going on and on and on.

[217] When we go into the fourth one, we've got typecasting and judgment that pops up.

[218] I remember in one specific instance when the student was talking about meeting with Spencer.

[219] And she said at some point in that conversation, I quote, you are a woman.

[220] Are you not?

[221] In 2015, Spencer made a hard play for at least one other student at Cal High School.

[222] And yes, she was a teenager.

[223] Here are some of the messages he sent to that student.

[224] What about hanging after school one day?

[225] We'd get away from this place.

[226] And when he didn't get the result he wanted, he tried a different tactic, her adulthood.

[227] You are a woman, are you not?

[228] That is a judgment.

[229] That is him saying, are you not going to act like a woman?

[230] And it typecast her into a role that she didn't sign up for.

[231] You mentioned earlier the need to please, trying to be friendly, be a good friend.

[232] Do you feel like the need to please comes from a place of fear, fear of losing your boyfriend, the fear of losing a friend.

[233] One of the things we teach in classes is really flipping that script.

[234] We talk about the fact that we have all walked into a room or relationship and thought, oh, I hope they like me. But instead thinking, I hope I like them.

[235] I hope they live up to my standard.

[236] I hope that this is somebody that I want to show off to the whole world.

[237] And if I don't, something is wrong.

[238] And it's not something wrong with me. something is wrong with them and looking at it that way and giving ourselves permission to hurt their feelings.

[239] You're allowed to say no and they will survive it, even if they're unhappy about it.

[240] No is a full sentence.

[241] It doesn't have to be explained.

[242] It doesn't have to be excused.

[243] Like it is no, period.

[244] And teaching women and girls, you can do that.

[245] And that's okay and still be a good person and happy with yourself.

[246] Because if you need to say no, they're not living up to your standard.

[247] you can walk out with no explanation.

[248] Was there anything else that you heard in Jen's story that stayed with you?

[249] I think about the woman in the band because I remember she said, I wasn't as good as everybody else and I didn't know why I was there.

[250] That hook of where there was a certain amount of really low self -esteem and not trusting herself to be enough, which is not her fault.

[251] And he took advantage of that.

[252] I wasn't nearly as talented as any of the rest of them in the group.

[253] I don't really know how I got approved.

[254] but I felt like he made it a point to push for me to be in the band.

[255] Here I'm having this awesome opportunity, and I knew like I shouldn't be going.

[256] So I guess I felt like I owed him something.

[257] I have so much gratitude for hope for being that radically honest about herself, worth, and self -esteem, because that really showed the dynamic.

[258] at play.

[259] Throughout the history of the podcast, it was so incredible to watch the different dynamics play out and the different people.

[260] And Jen, it's so eye -opening to people like us who've been doing this for a long time to hear the different patterns and to see the way that he moved through all of these people and the way he selected his victims.

[261] But it was also interesting to see that he chose you.

[262] And I think, you know, there was a partisans that really did look up to you and really thought you were this incredible woman who had all these gifts and all these talents and you were confident.

[263] And in a way, when you look at it, strategically, I guess we'll say, it also was another plaque on the wall.

[264] I'm married.

[265] I have this great wife.

[266] She's smart.

[267] I'm not the guy that's doing these things.

[268] Jennifer, ever since I saw you walk into that hotel lobby last year, I've known what I'm supposed to do.

[269] the rest of my life.

[270] I feel beyond honored to know you, to love you, and to accept the most privilege of all things being your husband.

[271] It was the Hollywood movie said that he was portraying with all of his accolades and his wife that is this amazing human.

[272] The other thing that stood out to me was your kindness in hearing the truth and being honest about all the hard parts, but offering a soft place to land for these women who, while you have been through so much, you know, they'd been through something also.

[273] That stood out to me over and over and over again because part of the conversation that we have, particularly with families or schools, is understanding what grace looks like and how to wrap your arms around somebody in an almost impossible situation.

[274] I think it sets an example and opens up a safe space, like you said, for more people.

[275] to come forward and to talk about it and to feel free doing that.

[276] What were some of the questions that a lot of survivors are bringing to the table when they're looking for help?

[277] More so than their general questions is that they felt alone.

[278] And it wasn't until somebody stood up in front of a group of people and acknowledged that these things do happen, that we are not alone.

[279] And the more we talk about it, the stronger we get together.

[280] And that we can look at what's going on and recognize in every incident, of violence or assault or abuse, there's really only one person to blame.

[281] And so how can we take freedom from that and then move forward?

[282] Looking at the world with a slightly different lens.

[283] Watching so many women recognize that there is a sisterhood in that room and yeah, that they're not alone.

[284] You genuinely can see people get taller and start to recognize that they did everything they could with what they had and collectively will build from here.

[285] When we look at natural disasters and different things that happen in the world, let's say a hurricane, there's this collective community response where everybody shows up and says, we're all here to support you and help.

[286] The problem with sexual assault, domestic violence, stalking, any kind of interpersonal violence is behind closed doors.

[287] It's private.

[288] And so you do feel alone.

[289] But once you collectively come together as a group and podcasts like yours are so helpful because you're saying, no, no, you're not alone.

[290] You're not alone.

[291] Never forget that.

[292] You guys are doing incredible work.

[293] For more information on SAS's educational and self -defense programs, go to sasko .org.

[294] Thank you for joining us today.

[295] Yes, thank you.

[296] And thanks to you guys, our betrayal community.

[297] And get ready.

[298] We'll be back with season two of betrayal starting May 18th.

[299] It's about a new betrayal that rarely ever is spoken about, but we'll confront it head on.

[300] Here's a sneak peek.

[301] My husband and I were opening a business.

[302] His first job was that very next day.

[303] One of the clients had asked if they could Benmo him.

[304] So he'd called me that morning.

[305] September 29th, 2021, he was like, I need you to set up my business Venmo.

[306] And I was like, all right, username and password for whatever email is connected to your Venmo.

[307] So he sent me the login for his iCloud.

[308] And as I'm signing in, he frantically calls me back.

[309] He was like, oh, don't worry about it.

[310] We'll do it together when we get home.

[311] Like, I'm sorry.

[312] It's going to be too much.

[313] Like, don't do it.

[314] I knew by the tenor of his voice that he was trying to hide something.

[315] I thought maybe he bought something they didn't want me to know about.

[316] There was nothing in his photos.

[317] And then I scrolled down, and that's when I saw a hidden folder, and I opened it.

[318] You know, when you open your photos, it's going to show you, like, a whole bunch of them at once.

[319] I slammed my computer shut.

[320] What the hell did I just see?

[321] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

[322] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[323] We cloned his voice using AI.

[324] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode.

[325] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[326] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[327] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[328] As I track down clues.

[329] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[330] Hunting.

[331] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[332] Robert Fisher.

[333] Do you recognize my first.

[334] voice listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows the podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into olympic and paralympic stories you know and those you'll be hard pressed to forget I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten the gosh the US limit trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world we are athletes are going out there smashing into each other full force Listen to The Podium on the I -Heart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[335] This could be the craziest podcast pairing ever.

[336] The governor of California, Gavin Newsom and Super Bowl champ Marshawn Beast Mode Lynch, our politicking.

[337] What does politicking even mean?

[338] There's bridge and gaps with no politics.

[339] Joined by their friend and agent Doug Hendrickson, it's going to be a wild ride.

[340] We can change the world.

[341] Podcast by podcasts.

[342] Listen to Politiken with Gavin Newsom, Marshawn Lynch, and Doug Hendrickson on America's number one podcast network.

[343] Eyeheart.

[344] Open your free IHeart app and search Politiken and start listening.