The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] You do think about, is it selfish?
[1] Is it worth it?
[2] Is it something?
[3] So, um...
[4] Sir Richard Branson!
[5] Richard Branson is one of the most fun -loving and adventurous billionaires in the world.
[6] He's conquered our skies, blasted off into space.
[7] The entrepreneur's entrepreneur, the marketer's marketer.
[8] In the school of business, they said focus.
[9] By the age of 33, you've got 50 different companies.
[10] You kind of break that law, it seems.
[11] If we'd stayed still and only focused on one business, We wouldn't have a business today.
[12] We're still going strong 55 years later.
[13] If you get the little details right, it makes for an exceptional company over an average company.
[14] We were the first airline to introduce seatback videos in the world, sleeper seats for business class passengers.
[15] We've always been ahead of the pack.
[16] The airline's been bullied by British Airways, famously through the Dirty Tricks campaign.
[17] The best always succeeds.
[18] As if all that you'd done before wasn't enough, you decided to aim for the stars.
[19] We're going to space.
[20] Looking back at this.
[21] beautiful, beautiful earth that we live on whilst floating, it was a dream come true.
[22] You know, we're still at the early stage of space travel, and there's still risks.
[23] One pilot has died after a passenger spaceship crashed.
[24] Everything that we'd built up looked like it was crashing down.
[25] What impact does that have on you and your mission?
[26] You've got to continue.
[27] Richard, having spent the last 24 hours reading both your...
[28] autobiographies, but also your new HBO docu -series.
[29] It feels very relevant to start where I usually start when I have these conversations, which is, can you tell me the context that I would need to understand about you in your earliest years, your home life before the age of 10, that went on to making you the man that I saw in that documentary series, but the man that we've also observed and been inspired by for many decades.
[30] So I was brought up in the country.
[31] side.
[32] I love the country.
[33] And I was brought up by a mum and dad who I suppose was struggling after the Second World War.
[34] A mother who was fairly extraordinary women who was absolutely determined that we'd stand on our own two feet.
[35] feet, wouldn't let us watch television, you know, made sure that we were outside doing things or creating things.
[36] And, you know, I've been forever grateful for that approach.
[37] And on occasion, she would maybe go a little bit far, you know, pushing us out of the car of age five or six and making us, you know, find our own way to Granny's house.
[38] But, you know, anyway, we survived all her approach and hopefully the stronger for it.
[39] Throughout your docu -series, but also throughout your books and everything that I've heard you talk about, Eve, your mother, she felt like a really, really extraordinarily principled and strong character.
[40] And in the docu -series, you actually say that you didn't realize how much she had influenced you on becoming the entrepreneur you are today.
[41] What was it that she was doing?
[42] Pushing her out of the car at five years old and making you walk home.
[43] But what was, were those principles that underlined her approach?
[44] So, I mean, she was one of the sort of first entrepreneurs around, really.
[45] I mean, not, you know, not a particularly successful one, but she was making table mats and, you know, cutting out pretty pictures from books.
[46] and turning them into pictures that you would then take to Harrods or Harvey Nichols.
[47] Interestingly, and I didn't realize this until I saw it in some letters that she'd written to me, you know, working from a phone box in London.
[48] And that was her office, just like my office had been later on working from a phone box at school.
[49] Um, but, um, uh, yeah, but so she, she, she would never stop.
[50] She, she was an idea, idea a minute.
[51] Um, always trying to, uh, uh, you know, better, better our lives, uh, and, um, and also, always trying to create things that she could be proud of.
[52] When was she most proud of you in terms of what kind of behaviors or achievements would make her most happy when you're young?
[53] Um, she, um, yeah, she was, she was, um, fairly, uh, yeah, she was, she was fairly firm when it came to, you know, the need for, um, you know, being courteous, um, from a young age.
[54] And, I mean, I remember, uh, in church one day, I refused to go and sit next to somebody that she wanted me to sit, to sit.
[55] next to who was maybe visiting our house.
[56] And when I got home, she asked my dad to spank me. And that had never happened before.
[57] And my dad takes me into the living, into the next door room and instructs me to burst into tears.
[58] And he slaps his hands together very hard six times.
[59] I come out rubbing my bum.
[60] But, and then, of course, she regretted having done it in the first place, but of course it never happened.
[61] But that, you know, she, she, she, she, you know, she, generally speaking, it was unreserved love, but she, she wanted us to care for other people properly.
[62] You know, if we ever said ill about somebody, we'd be sent to the mirror and we'd have to stand there for 10 minutes because it, you know, she felt it reflected so badly on us that we'd said ill as somebody.
[63] And, you know, those sort of lessons, I think, were very, very, very powerful and very good later on in life when I was, you know, leading people, always trying to look for the best in everybody.
[64] One of the threads throughout your story, which shocked me, surprised me and inspired me in many ways throughout the docu -series was this continual desire to move on to the next thing and make things bigger and to capture another opportunity which struck me as being at times like really defining character of you.
[65] You know, even when things seem to be successful by anyone's estimation, you pushed on again and then you'd push on again and again.
[66] Do you have any idea where that instinct or that characteristic came from in you?
[67] I'm sure that came from my mum.
[68] I am son of Eve, which is my mum's name.
[69] And but it's also, I think, because I was dyslexic and, you know, pretty hopeless at school, I've forever been trying to prove something to myself and prove something that, you know, when she was alive to her and my dad.
[70] And I'm inquisitive.
[71] I just love learning about new things.
[72] And once I've actually absorbed everything there is to know about, you know, the thing I've just created, I'm apt to want to move on and learn something about something completely different.
[73] Particularly if I feel other people are not doing it well.
[74] And so I just love diving in there and trying to, you know, shake up an industry that is badly run.
[75] Do you think she and your father, even your father, Ted, had high hopes for you?
[76] I think that my mum definitely thought that I would be, yeah, she decided that I was going to be Prime Minister of Britain one day and I think that, yeah, so she definitely had high hopes for me. My dad just wanted us to be happy.
[77] I mean, he was a very lovable, content, funny, witty individual, wanted to be an archaeologist, but ended up going into the law after after the war and would have been happy, I think, as long as we were happy.
[78] He didn't mind, he didn't really want to push us, but my mum, I think, expected more of us.
[79] You mentioned school a few moments ago.
[80] You and me both have a similarity in that we were hopeless in school.
[81] You went off to boarding school at seven years old, which in and of itself is a pretty extreme experience for a seven -year -old.
[82] You described this as being a little bit too young in your view, and you struggled.
[83] in part because of your dyslexia?
[84] At the time, did you know what dyslexia was or what it meant?
[85] No, I had no idea what dyslexia was.
[86] I just assumed that I must be a little bit thick.
[87] I mean, I could just about add up and subtract, but when it got to more complicated stuff, like algebra and geometry and the likes, I couldn't understand the reason for it.
[88] I wasn't interested in it.
[89] I couldn't understand why we were having to learn French when nobody seemed to ever actually speak it when they left school or Latin or and so I suppose in my head I rebelled against being taught things that I couldn't see the relevance of and actually that was a good thing because it ended with me rebelling from actually staying at school and leaving school at 15 and and creating some, and creating a magazine, which, um, to try to sort of address some of the issues in the world.
[90] Your dyslexia, um, you've often highlighted that in many respects.
[91] It's been a superpower.
[92] It's given you skills that have led to your success.
[93] What, what is that?
[94] What are those skills and what is the advantage in your view of this dyslexia and how that's changed how you function and operate?
[95] I think that, first of all, I'd like to say I'm proud of being a dyslexic thinker, and I'm delighted that dyslexic thinking is now becoming almost part of the vocabulary.
[96] And I'm pleased to talk to many dyslexic kids over the years to try to make them realise that, you know, do not.
[97] Do not be worried about it.
[98] You know, look at the areas that you enjoy and concentrate on those.
[99] And the areas that you're not great at, you know, either that you'll catch up later on in life or, you know, if you're going to start a business, you can delegate and find other people who can deal with those.
[100] So I think dyslexic people, really excel at the things that they're that interest them.
[101] And I think I know a lot of business people, for instance, who are dyslexics, who have gone on to do incredible things.
[102] Your headmaster, I read the very slightly humorous, slightly shocking story of when you're at boarding school, you had a little bit of a romantic run -in with his his daughter, Charlotte, got expelled, staged a fake suicide, got unexpelled.
[103] And then as you referenced a second ago, you had this idea for the student magazine.
[104] I read that there was an ultimatum given to you by your headmaster where he said, Richard, I know you're starting this magazine.
[105] You're either got to leave school and start the magazine or stay in school and focus on your formal education.
[106] At that point, you made the decision to jump ship.
[107] Yeah, I mean, I don't think the headmaster.
[108] was very foresighted.
[109] I think, you know, if a kid at school wants to start a national magazine for young people, what a great education.
[110] And they should have welcomed us to stay at school and do it, you know, within it from school.
[111] But the headmaster wasn't going to allow me to do that.
[112] And thank God, because, you know, getting out into the real world, I'd achieved a lot more than I would have done if he'd, if he'd been pleasant and said, you know, run the magazine from school.
[113] And there were a lot, there was a lot going on in the world.
[114] You know, there was the Vietnamese war.
[115] There was the Biafran war.
[116] There were the provos in Holland.
[117] There was the education system that needed students to rebel against.
[118] And, and the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, So it was an exciting time in the 60s to leave school, go to London, and try to start a magazine.
[119] I watched your, as I watched your docu -series yesterday in that theatre that we're all in, including yourself, one of the lines really struck me when they showed the small room that you were building this magazine in, I know sometimes it was a postbox, but sometimes there was a small room, I think, at a later date.
[120] A line was said, which is, this was my education.
[121] and for young people who are considering taking a leap when they have very little responsibility or think, you know, very little to lose, throwing themselves in that kind of, throwing themselves in a situation where they'll fail their way to an education struck me as being so important and so underrated when you don't have kids or you don't have a house or a mortgage.
[122] And it seems like that's exactly what you did.
[123] You used like failure and risk as a way to self -educate.
[124] Yeah.
[125] I mean, it's difficult for me to recommend it to everybody listening to this program because not everyone's going to be successful and obviously you and I have been fortunate that we have had success doing it that way some people and I'm going to get put my conservative hat on knowing that the parents may be listening as well you know some people will benefit from having an education you know degree or whatever to fall back on if they're if they're you're if they find that they just can't make a go of it in business.
[126] But anyway, I think for the two of us, I think being out in the real world, I mean, I learned so much.
[127] And, you know, it's held me into such good stead throughout my life.
[128] You know, in running a magazine, of course, You know, you're going out interviewing people, you're learning every time you interview somebody.
[129] You know, I think being a journalist or being an editor, you, it's not so different from being an entrepreneur.
[130] You're out all the time, meeting new people in different sectors, just learning, learning, learning.
[131] And, you know, through the magazine, a lot of people would write with problems, young people would write with problems.
[132] We ended up setting up a student advisory center where we would give people advice on venereal disease or gay people, the gay population or, you know, contraceptive advice, abortion advice, psychiatric advice, you know, and just meeting all these people with all these different problems, suicidal mental problems.
[133] really open my mind.
[134] It was just a fascinating, fascinating education.
[135] And throughout my life since then, I've spent a lot of my life trying to address some of these issues in a, first of all, in a wider sense in London and now more on a global scale.
[136] And, but that was, you know, that education was so important.
[137] You know, for instance, I remember when I, I was 15 in London, you know, somebody who was gay came to me saying that they wanted help and maybe I just turned 16.
[138] And I thought very naively that when they said they wanted help that, you know, they didn't want to be gay.
[139] Of course, you know, within a month or two, I realized that, you know, that people are born gay and they don't have a choice in the matter and what they desperately needed in those days was to meet other gay people.
[140] And because if they came from some remote place in the UK where gay people weren't accepted, they would come to London desperately seeking love or seeking friendship.
[141] And so, you know, just little things like that I learned from just being out there.
[142] listening and doing.
[143] That magazine was the first sort of big notable thing that you'd done in business.
[144] And throughout your story, and even before I'd met you and watched the docu -series and read the book, I was told by other people, Richard Branson's are an amazing delegator.
[145] You mentioned it earlier on, your delegation skills.
[146] To understand how to delegate to someone else, you first, as you've said, need to understand your strengths and weaknesses and also their strengths and weaknesses.
[147] So what are your strengths in your own words?
[148] What is the bit of the puzzle that you're good at?
[149] I think I'm good with people.
[150] I think I can trust people.
[151] I think I can surround myself with really, really good people.
[152] I think I'm able to delegate, to delegate, not to second guess them all the time.
[153] yeah to praise not criticize and um and um i and i i think i'm i think i'm quite good at uh if i i create something making sure it's the best you know the best in its area um so that the people who are working for virgin are really proud of what they're doing um you know it's really important that, you know, if somebody's in a pub and they work for Virgin and somebody says, what do you do, that they're proud of the fact that, you know, they work for Virgin and they're happy to say it.
[154] And there are some companies that if people work for, they weren't really wanted to be able to say that they work for such and such a company.
[155] Yes, I think the people's skills is, is the most important skill.
[156] I think just giving things a try.
[157] Screw it, let's do it.
[158] Obviously, it's a phrase I made years ago and I've used that phrase many a time.
[159] Somebody comes with an idea and I like them.
[160] and and yeah just say you know let's give it a go and and sometimes we both we all fat fall fat on our face sometimes sometimes it succeeds and conversely then what are the what are the weaknesses that you've kind of observed in yourself or the things that you tend to delegate to other people I actually read something which said which was a quote of yours it said I wanted an IQ test at eight years old I don't think I filled in anything Going forward 30 or so years, I was running Europe's largest private group of companies, but I didn't know the difference between gross and net profit, but it didn't matter.
[161] Yes, I was in a board meeting when I was about 50 years old, and the director said, and I think I said, is that good news or bad news?
[162] And one of the directors said, come outside Richard a minute, so came outside and he said, you don't know the difference between net and gross to you so I said no he said I thought not anyway I brought a sheet of paper so she brings out the sheet of paper and he has some color pens and he he colors it in blue and then he puts a fishing net in the in it and then he puts a little fish in the fishing net and he says so the fish that are in the net that's your profit at the end of the year and the rest of the ocean, that's your gross turnover.
[163] And I went, I've got it.
[164] Ever since then, I've been name -dropping net and gross to people who've obviously know full well what it is.
[165] But the point of the story is it really doesn't matter.
[166] I mean, it's a good idea, most likely, if your chief accountant knows.
[167] But, you know, for somebody who's running a company, what matters is can you, you know, can you create the best company in its sector?
[168] You know, if you're going to create an airline, is it going to be palpably better than the rival airline?
[169] If you create a cruise company, is it going to be palpably better than the other cruise companies?
[170] If you're going to create a trained company, is it going to be palpably better than what's gone before?
[171] And if it is, then at the end of the year, it's likely that more money that will come in than goes out.
[172] And then somebody else can add up the figures.
[173] So I think, you know, to run a business, you know, yes, it helps to add up.
[174] It helps to subtract.
[175] It helps to multiply.
[176] I don't even think you need to worry about division.
[177] that that's it so you know so if you can if you can do those three things you can run a business if you can't do those three things I wouldn't worry too much you find somebody else you can and just but just go out and create something that's going to make a positive difference to other people's lives that student magazine became kind of pivoted at the end into a mail -order music business which is a big part of the docu -series that we watched yesterday but then it became so many more things and it's the interesting thing is kind of how you swang from one of these business ideas to the next because you'd seen a product or service that you thought could be done better or there was an opportunity there when i you know in the school of entrepreneurship if that's like a metaphorical thing we always talk about the importance of focus now when i look at your story from 15 years old starting that magazine to starting a mail order business around i think 20 22 years old when virgin was kind of um conceptualized and launched and then by the age of 30 you you've got 50 different companies involving everything from film making to conditioner cleaning and generating more than $10 million in sales.
[178] I go, this is not what they told me about the need for focus in the school of business.
[179] They said focus.
[180] You kind of break that law, it seems, of focus.
[181] So I've never really thought of myself as a business person.
[182] obviously on paper I am an entrepreneur or a business person I've never really been interested in the bottom line despite what the docu -series seems to betray I really have been interested in creating things I can be proud of and a lot of those things come out of personal frustration and I must be frustrating quite a lot when I was young because I ended up, you know, trying a lot of things.
[183] And I just found it great fun investing in, you know, people I met, you know, somebody will come along and, you know, the music business may have been, you know, struggling at one stage in my career with the advent of the iPod and, you know, a couple of guys come along and say, you know, you should do mobile phones.
[184] This is, you know, this would replace the music business.
[185] And they were great, great people.
[186] And, you know, so we thought, screw it, you know, let's do it.
[187] Let's go into the mobile phone business.
[188] And so if we'd stayed still and only done, only focused on one business, maybe, let's say, the record business.
[189] let's say record stores, which is one of our earlier things, we'd most like we wouldn't have a business today because the mega stores and record stores no longer exist because the iPod and free music really put them out of business.
[190] So by actually going against the rules of what you learn in business school, we, you know, we're still going strong, you know, 55 years later.
[191] And diversification actually saved us.
[192] I mean, like, you know, during COVID, you know, Virgin Atlantic and very badly hit companies was saved by Virgin, I mean, being able to sell Virgin Galactic shares.
[193] So diversification is far more exciting.
[194] You learn a hell of a lot more, and it can be useful in times of crisis.
[195] It's clear that only a great delegator would be able to diversify without creating, spreading themselves too thinly per se.
[196] For sure.
[197] I guess that goes back to that skill of diversity delegation.
[198] Your headmaster said something to you that my best friend, Your Ridgeway, said to me when I was 18 years old, after I dropped out of university.
[199] My best friend, Joe Ridgeway from Plymouth said to me, I remember I stood in this curry shop in Rushholm.
[200] He said, you're either going to be a millionaire or in prison.
[201] Now, when I read that this morning, when I was doing research on your headmaster, it stopped me and my breakfast halfway through my sort of chew.
[202] I thought, gosh.
[203] Now, I know why he said that to me, because he knew there was a certain level of desperation in me and there was a certain craftiness, which was could either take me, could even be used for good or evil.
[204] When you did the student magazine, that prophecy appeared to come true one day when the police raided your magazine and arrested you.
[205] And I learned about this in the docu -series last night.
[206] Your mother then puts her house on the line to get you out of jail, and you choose to expand your way out of the problem, which for you men, as it said in the docu -series, opening 30 record stores that year, to be able to pay your mother back.
[207] Have you always chosen to expand your way out of problems?
[208] Yes, I think the answer is yes.
[209] I mean, I spent one night in prison.
[210] In those days, you had to pay tax on records if you ship them to Europe.
[211] Sadly, with Brexit, people are going to have to do that again.
[212] but and and I stumbled into the fact that if you drove across the channel and drove back again, you had a piece of paper which said you'd exported the records and therefore you didn't have to pay the tax.
[213] But anyway, so we got a bad rap on the knuckles.
[214] I spent a night in prison and swore never, ever, ever to spend a second night in prison in my life.
[215] And yes, we expanded fast in order to pay, pay off the fine.
[216] We just needed the turnover.
[217] And it was actually a really, a wonderful booster to all the team at Virgin.
[218] And fortunately, we managed within three years to pay it off.
[219] But, I mean, sometimes we're expanding, expanding just for the shared pleasure of learning about something new.
[220] And then maybe occasionally, like on that occasion, we're expanding to get ourselves out of trouble.
[221] The most, from my perspective, one of the most terrifying decisions you ever made was to go into the airline industry.
[222] Warren Buffett's fairly famous for saying that he has once considered employing someone to sit in his office and every time he feels like investing in an airline to talk him out of it because it's such a absurd, terrifying business to get into.
[223] You were running a very successful record label and record store business by then.
[224] You had many, many companies, many investments, and you decided to take this huge bet to start an airline.
[225] Now, there's a lot said about why.
[226] Could you tell me in your own words, why?
[227] And it really was out of frustration of flying on other people's airlines, having bad experiences, and feeling that we could do it better.
[228] We could make it, it could be more fun.
[229] I mean, in those days, you know, if you flew on, say, British airways, it was a monopoly.
[230] they you know you were you maybe got a lump of chicken dumped in your lap there was no entertainment the cabin crew certainly didn't enjoy working for the company and and and you really felt like you're just being herded from A to B in a cattle truck and and and and so I flew I was flying all over the world to visit our record companies because we had record companies in most countries around the world and just felt, you know, we could do it better.
[231] Somebody came along to us with the idea of a business airline only.
[232] I didn't think that would be very exciting to run.
[233] But I thought a really good quality airline for everybody, including business people.
[234] people, you know, would be something special to run.
[235] And so ended up ringing up Boeing and having a wonderful discussion with a wonderful guy called R .J. Wilson and ending up being able to lease a secondhand 747 from him.
[236] And because, you know, I do like to protect the dance.
[237] which is obviously important in business.
[238] I did a deal with him whereby I could hand the plane back at the end of 12 months if my instinct was not right.
[239] But fortunately at the end of 12 months, people love flying on Virgin Atlantic, and we ended up getting a second and a third plane from Boeing.
[240] And that was, yeah, 38 years ago.
[241] And, you know, Virgin Atlantic, has, you know, it's like a, it's roughly the same age as my daughter.
[242] You know, she's been, the airline's been bullied by British Airways, I mean, famously through the Dirty Tricks campaign.
[243] It was a really tough time.
[244] We took the A to court and we won the biggest libel damages in history.
[245] She's had, she's had to.
[246] go through the like I think crashes like the 9 -11 disaster the 2008 disaster and it's the COVID disaster and and I'm sure that we've you know that it's cost us more money than than we've ever made from it but it's been the flagship you know for Virgin it's enabled us to launch other companies in different countries around the well on the back of the strong brand and the strong reputation it's had.
[247] And she's a daughter that I will zealously protect and as long as I can.
[248] When you look back at why that business survived, considering the fierce competition, considering what British Airways did and what ultimately found guilty of in court with their 30 tricks campaigns, the bit that really stuck out to me yesterday was hearing that they had a staff member hacking into your customer database um to kind of see spy on what you were doing that went to court you won the battle um and that acted as a a real boost i think for virgin because it kind of staged you as this sort of david versus goliath um situation where you were the underdog but as you look back on that journey many people have fallen in that industry it's a graveyard as you say in the documentary why did virgin win what was it was it brand was it customer experience was it just grit think that I think a lot comes back to staff.
[249] I mean, we've always had a great team of people working at Virgin.
[250] They're really proud of the company.
[251] They've done things, you know, we've always been ahead of the pack in new innovations.
[252] So, you know, seat back videos, for instance, we were the first airline to introduce seatback videos in the world.
[253] The sleeper seats for business class passengers.
[254] You know, stand -up bars and lounges and so on.
[255] You know, collecting money at the door for charity, that Virgin was the first to do that and now pretty well every airline and most airports are doing it as well, this change.
[256] So I think, you know, every little detail, I think, the team have got right at Virgin.
[257] And if you get the little details right, you know, then collectively, it makes for an exceptional company over an average company.
[258] And, you know, if I'm on a Virgin plane, or in any Virgin company, I'll have my notebook, I'll take notes.
[259] I listen to it, listen to the staff, listen to the customers, you know, and then act on it when I get to the far end and then be back in touch with the people who gave me the ideas to thank them and tell them what we've done.
[260] And I think a good leader has to be a good listener.
[261] And if you're, and that's, I think, one of the most important attributes of a good leader.
[262] I grabbed my phone halfway through watching the docu -series yesterday when you mentioned the seat -back videos, because in the same breath, you mentioned how every accountant would tell you not to do many of the things that you've chosen to do, but also the banks wouldn't even lend you the money to do the seat -back videos.
[263] They'd give you the money, like, $2 billion to do the planes, but they wouldn't give you the 10 million to do the seat -back videos.
[264] You've mentioned instinct as well a few times.
[265] As a CEO of the years, I've had this battle between, like, instinct and the CFO.
[266] You seem to tend to, I think the quote you said was, you tend not to consult finance people and accounts people when you have these ideas.
[267] How have you found that battle between the two, between your instinct and your vision and the money people going, this won't work, this doesn't make sense?
[268] I suspect that you're the entrepreneur and they're the CFO because you're the entrepreneur and they're the CFO.
[269] So I think you just got to believe in your, your your your instinct and and and and and and go with it and if you create something you know we're just opening a new hotel in uh new york um you know if it's the best hotel in new york even if it's gone over budget in the building of it which it will have done um uh the the best always succeeds um uh you know we we we famously during COVID, launched a new cruise line, Virgin Voyages.
[270] You know, it is so much better than any other cruise line out there.
[271] You know, we've had two years where we've had to mothball the ships.
[272] But, you know, we've stuck with it because we know that the quality is such that people will seek it out.
[273] And the feedback's been, you know, spectacular.
[274] I mean, it's virgin and it's absolute best.
[275] I'm actually heading there this afternoon.
[276] You know, it's fascinating.
[277] Each ship has 78 different nationalities working on it, you know, 1 ,200 people.
[278] And they're just the best.
[279] And it's adults only and it's a lot of fun.
[280] But, you know, there were moments during COVID that we did think, you know, we definitely chose the wrong business to launch.
[281] virgin at its absolute best what does that mean what is virgin at its best virgin at its best is when you launch a new company and you know that because you know people have experienced previous version companies that they will give it a try you don't really have to even advertise they know that when they went on a version train when we ran the network that it was really good quality when they went on a Virgin plane, it was great quality.
[282] When they went into Virgin Health Club, it was good quality, and so on.
[283] And so, you know, that gives us a big advantage with a brand that people have tried, they've loved.
[284] And so when we launch something new like a cruise line, they will give it a go, and we make sure that we don't let them down.
[285] And then, you know, having them tried the cruise line if we decide to do it, a new venture, you know, it's that much easier for us to launch it off the back of the cruise line.
[286] You are so synonymous with the Virgin.
[287] I don't think I know a person who is as synonymous with their brand as an individual.
[288] So when you think of Virgin, you think of Richard Branson, you think of Richard Branson, you think Virgin.
[289] And in 1985, you start doing some pretty extreme adventures around the world, which become kind of pay into the brand.
[290] and give the brand extra meaning.
[291] Things like crossing the Atlantic by boat, which sunk.
[292] It seems like a lot of the trips you took either collapse like fell out the sky into the sea or the boat sank.
[293] You set so many records through that period.
[294] I was reading about you going 250 miles per hour in a hot air balloon across the Pacific from Japan to the Arctic in Canada, again breaking existing records at the time.
[295] This became a real hallmark of like the Richard Branson and Virgin Brand, these extreme adventures.
[296] Was that intentional?
[297] When you did that first one, did you, was it because of a marketing thing or was it because of the fun of doing it for yourself?
[298] It started out as a mixture of the two, but more, we had one plane and somebody said, you know, why don't we try to bring the blue ribbon back to Britain for the fastest boat across the Atlantic and you know we can we can we can build this boat and and uh but it ended up being much more than just a marketing adventure it became it became a real adventure i mean it was you know tremendously exciting and um i was in in my very early 30s and and and you know it was tough but it was it was great fun there were you know lots of moments of drama which there always are when you're trying something that's never really been tried before um including as you pointed out we say we sang before we got the whole way across um but um but anyway it makes for a good documentary series and and it makes for a good book and and and you know and it did put virgin on the map.
[299] It made Virgin a much more sexy brand, a more adventurous brand than, say, British Air was our rival and other brands.
[300] I mean, Virgin Atlantic cheekily took a full -page ad when we sank in the Atlantic.
[301] The only thing that was sticking out of the Atlantic of the boat was the brand Virgin.
[302] boat sticking out of the water and the ad said next time richard take the plane and and of course there were people who said you know what have you saying what have you end up in the in the atlantic you know no one's going to want to fly an airline where and but of course it's quite the reverse it's you know people you know it helped put it helped put a tiny little airline on the map more effectively than anything else we could do and much more cheaply.
[303] You mentioned that ad from your competitor there.
[304] In the moment, competition is the arch enemy, causing you a ton of nuisance.
[305] But as you look back on the competition you've had throughout the different industries you've been in, has the competition actually made you stronger and better at what you've done?
[306] Yes, and I think the reverse is also true that these, you know, these big public companies or big government -run companies like British Airways have been made the better by having Virgin Atlantic innovating and, you know, them having to, you know, catch us up over the years.
[307] And I think British Airways is a better company today than it was, you know, 38 years ago when we started.
[308] So competition is good for all of us, big and small.
[309] and the only role that governments need to play is intervening when there's unfair competition and that's one of the most important roles the government can play is making sure that they set laws that encourage competition and don't stifle competition and you know we've had yeah, anyway, there have been books written about companies that have tried to stifle Virgin in the past, but somehow we came through.
[310] There's this term now called personal branding, which has become very popular, predominantly because of social media and everybody having a channel and they can build followers and they can try and tell the world who their company is using social media.
[311] But you were kind of the first CEO personal brand to many people, because everything you did, added value to the brand.
[312] And it wasn't just what Virgin said.
[313] I think when I look at your story, it teaches me that the brand is what the people do and what the founder does becomes the brand more so than ever.
[314] And I think that's often what we lose sight of.
[315] And some of the best brands in the world, like the Red Bulls of the world, have figured out that the things you do say much more about the brand than what you say.
[316] Yeah.
[317] And you are like the perfect example of that.
[318] In the early 90s, you got in a bit of a struggle because of the broader economy and you ended up selling your record business from all accounts and from speaking to some of your current team they said that this was a very difficult moment for you that it was crushing, I think, the quote that I was told.
[319] Is that accurate and why was it crushing?
[320] Oh, look, I think if you think of your, if you think of the things that you create like children, which I do, and I'd think of it like, that because it is just a bunch of people and I mean you know your business is yourself and a group of people if you sell it it's like selling selling you know if you sell a company it's like selling a group of children and and that's that's tough all round I needed to I needed a war chest to combat British airways and and the dirty tricks that they were they'd launched at Virgin and and you know so you know the war chest that I thought I could best tap into was Virgin Records and the good thing was that you know the staff at Virgin Records you know still had a had a job that working for another company and the staff at Virgin Atlantic were safe because we had the financial clout to to deal to deal with our competitor.
[321] So there are, you know, there are obviously times in life where you have to make tough decisions like that and, and, yeah, they did, and move, and move on.
[322] Do you have any regrets about how that happened by that phase?
[323] I have, I always think that if, if anybody asked me if I ever have any regrets about anything, it would be, I'd be a very sad person to answer, answered positively because you know I've had the most extraordinary life it's been full of you know interesting twists and turns and I honestly really you know can't think of anything I regret in the past the and I think I really do think I'd be a sad person if I had regrets I mean it's just been rich with you know adventure and and people and I'm not somebody who looks back and by and large.
[324] I mean, obviously, an interview like this, I will, but I suppose I've reached an age where, you know, it's important to write books and it's important to do documentaries and, you know, because it's important not to waste your life and it's important to share what you've learned.
[325] How did you feel yesterday watching the docu -series on your life?
[326] I was sat just behind you, so I'd watch, I'd look at the screen and now I'd look at your reaction and I'd see you laughing sometimes.
[327] I was emotionally drained, to be honest.
[328] I mean, after the after party, I just could not really get my words out for the first half an hour.
[329] You know, I found it quite, you know, fairly exhausting.
[330] I mean, they've, it's incredible, a really good documentary maker and Chris Smith is one of the best.
[331] in the world.
[332] I mean, you know, prides himself on his independence, which I respect completely.
[333] And so we, you know, we didn't have input into it.
[334] You know, obviously, therefore, not everything one's going to agree with.
[335] And not everything is, you know, in my brain would be exactly as it was.
[336] But, you know, 95%, 96 % was as I see it.
[337] But but just what is incredible was the archive footage they managed to find, you know, considering we'd had my main house burnt down, my main house blown down in a hurricane, twice, the fact that anything survived to be able to make such a, you know, such a really full, you know, really quite exciting, I think, documentary series was, you know, I have to take my hat off to them.
[338] and then in the uh as i watched the the last episode of the docu series last night i saw you once again in typical richard branson style set yourself a new frontier which was space as if you you know as if all that you'd done before wasn't enough you decided to aim for the stars why um so i remember many, many, many years ago when President Gorbachev was a leader of Russia and he was trying to bring perestroika to the West and trying to put out peace signs, he invited me to come to Russia to be the first person to go up in a Russian spaceship.
[339] But it would have meant a big cheque you know 60 million it would have meant a year learning russian and being in russia and i just didn't have the time that and already the spare money to do something like that but it did get me thinking you know that's an inordinate amount of money to charge for somebody to go to space you know for that kind of money we why couldn't i just build start building a spaceship.
[340] And so we registered Virgin Galactic Airways and I went around the world trying to see if we could find somebody to build us a spaceship and then just found this genius, Bert Routa.
[341] You know, to me, you know, I've always dreamt of going to space one day.
[342] I think 50 % of the people listening to this program will have dreamt or will dream of going to space 50 % will think why on earth would you want to do that but you know it's it was the most extraordinary day of my life my trip to space and and and you know looking back at this beautiful beautiful earth that we live on it was um from space whilst whilst floating, you know, whilst floating with a lovely group of people, just an extraordinary experience.
[343] And to be honest, yeah, to pinch one's self moment to be doing it in a spaceship that we built.
[344] And, and, yeah, so it was a dream come true.
[345] in that documentary we're also reminded of the cost of all of these endeavors at a moment when there's a shot of you taking a phone call at your house learning that in the lead up to virgin galactics going to space for the first time an astronaut had died in one of the tests it's a very emotional scene but it is a reminder of the cost of these great endeavors to humanity that day when you receive that phone call and then you you rushed yourself to the to the to the the site what's on your mind so it's happened to me twice in my life um uh you know i was once in a cinema in um uh in europe uh with my kids and i my phone just kept uh kept vibrating and and and and i ignored it and then on the sort of third or fourth time i decided to walk out of the cinema and check it and one of our trains had come off the track and and you know straight away I knew that you know I just had to get to the scene of the accident and you know there were no flights that night so we had to had to drive through the through the night and then yeah and and then anyway we got got there at early in the morning the next day one uh lady had died and you know and i um went went to the morgue to meet the relatives and um you know we we had a hug and um and um i mean fortunately it turned out it wasn't actually a virgin's fault but um you know but you're still obviously responsible for um the fact that it was on a virgin train um and um and and And then you've got to, as owner, you know, talk to the press.
[346] But I think the fact that you make, the fact that you make an effort and get there quickly is very important.
[347] And the same, when we lost a test spaceship, I knew straight away, based on my previous experience with the train, that I needed to be there as fast as possible.
[348] Is there a conversation about discontinuing Virgin Galactic at that moment after losing that life?
[349] Yeah, there was.
[350] I mean, you know, we, I sat down with George Whiteside and just said, you know, is it, you know, asked ourselves questions.
[351] Is it worth it?
[352] Is it worth, you know, is it worth continuing?
[353] What would happen if we had a second accident?
[354] You know, we would never, never, never be forgiven.
[355] I mean, it would, you know, it would, um, our reputation.
[356] would be destroyed but then we then we spoke with all the all the engineers and we spoke with many of the people who signed up to go to space and and we spoke with the family and of the pilot who'd lost and with one with one voice they said you know you just got to you've got to continue and and and we did and and we're still you know we're still you know we're still you know we're still at the early stage of space travel there's still risks I mean we think that you know we don't you know we think that we're through all the big risks you know we've got a we can automatically switch off an engine if you know if anything's wrong goes wrong with a rocket motor just, and we've got astronauts actually flying our craft.
[357] But it is the early stages, but I think everybody involved are doing it with their eyes open.
[358] One of the most beautiful heart -wrenching scenes from the docu -series is in 2021 when you are months away from your first spaceflight on your own spaceship, spacecraft, spaceplane, whatever thing, whatever the terminology is um you've named it after your mother you've named the mothership after eve and then tragically um she passes away from covid before she has the chance to embark on that space journey with you which she was planning to do that phase of your life when you lose your mother when you lose eve what impact does that have on you and your mission um it it i mean first of all she'd lived a long life and an extraordinary life and so was yeah I mean you know I was very very fortunate and our family were very fortunate to have had her around so long and and and the absolute last thing that she would have wanted was for for for the mission or any missions to be held up as a result of her death I mean you know she she will you know, there's a star up there and she'll be on it and I'm sure that she was there and there in spirit when I went to space and she definitely would have been smiling, smiling down at us with my dad, Ted.
[359] And so, yeah, and so I think when we, when we lose loved ones, it's, you know, you live on, you live on through your.
[360] your parents and your and your children live on through you and your grandchildren live on through your children and and you know that's the sort of wonder the wonders of life and when you came down from that space flight which is detailed in your your second memoir in the sort of updated version which has just been updated you wrote a letter to your mum after coming down from space you said dear mum you always told me to reach for the stars well I took my own winding road but I always knew when to follow your lead you always pushed us to our limits you were always a dreamer you urged me to strive for every opportunity i saw you told me to chase my wildest fantasies to live life to the full how you lived how you loved and how you are missed yeah i mean she um you know i think uh uh yeah hopefully um yeah when when people read the book they'll think about their own mums and dads and and and you know how lucky lucky we are to have mums and dads who sacrifice so much for us and as we as we as we grow up and then obviously later on in life one can you can give you know give give back and looking after them as they get a little bit older the docu series was a bit of a punch in the face from the start because that because of that opening scene about your family, where you're sat there ahead of your journey to space, trying to say some words to Holly, Sam and Joan, your wonderful wife and your kids, just in case you never make it back from space.
[361] This is something that you've done time and time again before you embarked on these journeys.
[362] Really, really difficult to watch, really difficult to watch and took me by surprise because it was so early on in the film.
[363] Why was, Why is it so hard to get those words out?
[364] Otherwise, you seem like such a composed individual.
[365] But when it came to those words, it seemed like, you know, multiple takes.
[366] You got up, you walked away, you came back, got up, walked away and came back.
[367] So, first of all, I do, I cry in happy films.
[368] I cry in sad films.
[369] My kids bring a box of tissues when we go to the cinema or used to.
[370] And so that I'm, so I am, you know, even now just talking to you, I can feel tears in my eyes.
[371] So, so it's not surprising for me to suddenly not be able to get my, get through my sentence sometimes.
[372] But obviously, look, if you're, if you're reading, if you're speaking about as if you've, as if you've died to, you know, to your kids and your grandkids.
[373] Yeah, lots of emotions go through your head at the time of speaking.
[374] I suspect even the emotions of my God, should I be, you know, is, is it worth it?
[375] And a lot of this documentary series is asking the question, is it selfish?
[376] Is it worth it?
[377] Is it, is it, is it, is it something?
[378] is it something that one should be doing i remember um i was in i was just taking off on um to go across the pacific and hot air balloon and walking into this truck and um jane thirkettle from itn was just finishing editing my obitory in case i didn't come back and she said you know richard do you want to sit and watch the obituary and I said, why not?
[379] And, and, you know, I sat and watched the obituary and again had a couple of tears in my eyes at the end of it.
[380] But, you know, but I do think that in life, you know, one advantage of doing these adventures is actually you do confront the ultimate inevitability of, you know, that you're not going to be here forever.
[381] And so you do think about, you know, have I left everything in order?
[382] You know, what am I going to say to my children?
[383] What am I going to say to my grandchildren?
[384] And a lot of people don't have that opportunity because they die suddenly.
[385] So, you know, so I have written quite a few letters over the years in thinking that I just may not come back from this adventure or that adventure.
[386] The documentary also shone a light on Joan, who has clearly been this huge rock in your life over the years.
[387] She's a strong, tenacious, honest, very, very to the point, wonderful woman.
[388] What does she mean to you?
[389] And what has she meant to you over the last 40, 50 years?
[390] Oof, well, I was lucky enough to meet her 45 years ago in a recording studio called The Manor, walked into the kitchen and just looked across the room and she was the most gorgeous creature.
[391] I'd never seen in my life.
[392] And it was instantaneous love from me to her.
[393] It took me a while the other way around.
[394] But she's just a fantastic down -to -earth, Glasgow Svejan, doesn't suffer fools gladly.
[395] Complete opposite to me. You know, doesn't play tennis, doesn't run, doesn't ski, doesn't climb mountains, you know, doesn't go adventuring.
[396] but she's the most fantastic mother for Holly and Sam and the grandkids and she knows what matters in life I mean the in the end I suppose what matters is you know the love you can give to your children the food on the table and yeah but all above everything just unreserved love um to to all everybody around her and and and uh and everything else is um is sort of icing on the cake you're a man synonymous with living a life worth living one of the film was about you know not living a life um that is full of risk is not living at all words to that effect if i was sam or holly your kids and i asked you i said dad what's um what's um what What is a life worth living?
[397] What would you say to me?
[398] I think just to first of all, fulfill their own dreams.
[399] I mean, not to have their father or mother push them into things they don't want to do.
[400] So, you know, I was lucky my daughter wanted to be a doctor and she did the medical, she became a doctor.
[401] She now helps this with our foundation.
[402] and my son wanted to make films and he's a musician basically, which is his main love, and he does a little bit of both of those things.
[403] They're both fantastic parents, and they find the time for the grandkids.
[404] So I think just to follow whatever dream it is that you have as best you can.
[405] and yeah and you know we've been lucky that our kids have I think found their path in life we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing who they are asking it for the question that has been left for you is where were you when you when you felt most vulnerable and why i think i felt most vulnerable um relatively recently um during the uh about six weeks into covid um when uh everything everything that we'd built up uh looked like it was crashing down um and uh and interestingly when uh they sort of british press rather than being supported of really turned on us and and but fortunately you know my kids and grandkids everybody arrived around about that same time and and and the team just got down and worked really hard hard day and night to make sure we kept as many jobs safe as possible and and and I think pretty well every virgin company got through it and pretty well every employee's jobs got protected.
[406] But that was maybe the toughest time in my life for, you know, suddenly it just looked like one's your reputation and everything else was going out of the window.
[407] But COVID was tough for so many people and but yeah, but we've felt it too.
[408] Holly and several members of your team referenced that as being your toughest moment but the word tough is just a word if I zoomed in and if I was there what would I know I was you what would I have seen and what would I have felt when you say the word tough well I think I think that I've never understood depression and I think I understood a slight you know where people get depression from after that experience.
[409] And it's good, you know, it's good to have gone through it myself a bit.
[410] I mean, I didn't last too long because I've, you know, brought up by, you know, parents who, you know, been through the Second World War and you can waste your time, you know, getting depressed.
[411] You know, there were much far worse things than being depressed.
[412] But anyway, it taught me to understand it, which I think will hope.
[413] hopefully make me better understand other people's depression in the years to come.
[414] What were the symptoms of that?
[415] What were the symptoms of it?
[416] I was very difficult to pinpoint the symptoms.
[417] But, you know, look, you just feel very sorry for yourself for a day or two, and then you just have to snap out of it and get, you know, my mum would have, if she'd been alive, well, she was.
[418] But, I mean, if I'd talked to her about it, she would have told me to pull myself together.
[419] and get back to work and I think within two or three days, you know, her words would have been ringing in my head and I would have overcome it.
[420] And I did overcome it.
[421] But it's just, you know, it's just a taste of it anyway.
[422] Richard.
[423] So Richard Branson, thank you so much for your time.
[424] I, to me, when I started this podcast, you were the name.
[425] You were the name that if one day I could speak to on this podcast, I think we might as well.
[426] pack it up and finish because to me as an entrepreneur my whole life you've always been the north star of entrepreneurs and you've represented and embodied what it is to be a entrepreneur that's striving forward to create better in everything you do i had the pleasure of researching your story again now at 30 years old and it's been a tremendous source of inspiration for me um to meet you today to get to come and watch your docu -series is one of the highlights of my entire entrepreneurial career and life and definitely this podcast so thank you so much for that because because I'm not sure you'll ever really appreciate how much of an impact you have on people like me. So I want to make sure that while I have you here, I have a chance to tell you and to thank you for that because you've definitely changed my life.
[427] And I know I'm not the only person.
[428] So thank you.
[429] Your book is amazing.
[430] The docu -series was so captivating.
[431] I stayed up to about 3 a .m. Last night, making sure I watched all of it and then watched it the last episode again this morning.
[432] And I implore everybody to go and check it out now on HBO.
[433] But yeah, the most important thing is I just wanted to say thank you.
[434] Well, I thank you back and yeah, many, many congratulations and all you've achieved and all you're being a young bastard, all you will achieve in the years to come.
[435] Thank you, Richard.