Former Mafia Boss: "I Was Running The Biggest Scam In The World! $1.4 Million A Day!" - Michael Franzese

[0] In your time in the Mafia, what did you witness?

[1] I'm going to be honest with you.

[2] We're bringing in $9, $10 million a week.

[3] I was arrested 18 times, and I saw guys that died for the wrong reasons.

[4] But I'll tell you one thing, Steve, you're not going to want to hear this.

[5] But it's the truth.

[6] Michael Franzisi, one of the highest earning mafia members turned motivational speaker, who is sharing the ruthless lessons.

[7] He learned about business, leadership, and resilience.

[8] So there's two levels in that life.

[9] You're either a raceteer or you were a gangster.

[10] And I was a raceteer, meaning, I was elevating the family by making them money.

[11] I had 18 companies defrauding the government out of tax, bringing in $10 million a week.

[12] It was living a lifestyle in a jet plan, I had an helicopter.

[13] What was the most cash you ever saw?

[14] 40, 50 million?

[15] In cash.

[16] In cash.

[17] Now, you can learn so much from the mafia.

[18] I'll give you an example.

[19] The art of negotiations.

[20] This is a tremendous technique to get what you want.

[21] And I always want.

[22] So here's what you have to do.

[23] Now, you may be making all this money, but we have rules.

[24] And you don't violate the rules because the consequences are severe.

[25] was a guy that had to kill his father, and then a very dear friend of mine, he did something that was a total violation of our life, and he ended up getting killed.

[26] But the one thing that really hurt me bad, my dad had a powerful position in the mafia, and he betrayed me. That was rough.

[27] Steve, the thing is, I've done a lot of bad things in my life, but it's not the path that I wanted to take.

[28] I realized, you know, I got to get away from this.

[29] Like, you don't walk away from this life, we're not allowed to do that.

[30] When does it all come crashing down for you?

[31] This is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my mind.

[32] life.

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[43] Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[44] Let's get to the conversation.

[45] Michael, who were you?

[46] Who was I?

[47] Interesting question.

[48] I, um, You know, I have to start with this because you just came right off the bat and asked me a question that I don't want to say stumped me, but maybe in a way did in the same way that Jordan Peterson did.

[49] I'll tell you why.

[50] Jordan said to me, he said, Michael, you spent 20 years in that life.

[51] Obviously, you did some things that were not good.

[52] I said, yeah.

[53] Well, how'd you do that?

[54] And I said, you know, Jordan, when I had to do something that I was uncomfortable with, I kind of stepped out of myself, I believe, took care of business, and then stepped back in.

[55] So he looked at me and he said, well, how do you know who the real Michael is, the guy that stepped out or the guy that's sitting here in front of me now?

[56] I said, that's a good question, Jordan.

[57] I said, but I've been this guy for the last almost 30 years, so hopefully.

[58] hopefully this is the guy.

[59] So, you know, who am I?

[60] I mean, I'm a guy that, you know, at a point in time in my life, I was on the right track.

[61] Love my dad very much.

[62] And as a result of that, I followed him into this life to try to help him out.

[63] He had a 50 -year prison sentence.

[64] And I thought the only way to help him, and he thought the same, was to really get on the street and do some of the work that was necessary to try to overturn a conviction that he got.

[65] Wrongful conviction, by the way.

[66] So I became that other guy that was able to, I was going to be a doctor.

[67] I was my, I was a pre -med student when my dad got this 50 -year sentence.

[68] So, but then I just, I mean, I fell into that life and I, I thought I did a pretty good job while I was there.

[69] And I acclimated to it pretty, pretty, you know, easily.

[70] When someone thinks about you joining the mafia, they assume that your home life must have been a certain way.

[71] you must have had a really, really rough early upbringing.

[72] Is that the case?

[73] You know, I had a very strict mother.

[74] I mean, she was 16 when I was born.

[75] And we had a very turbulent life because of my father's involvement in that life.

[76] My father was an extremely high profile guy at that time, major target of law enforcement.

[77] So from the time I was four or five years old, my dad was in and out of jail, going on trial.

[78] and we allowed a lot of turbulence, police around us all the time.

[79] So I witnessed all that, was part of that.

[80] I don't know if that contributed to, you know, who I am now.

[81] I don't know.

[82] I mean, but it certainly, I mean, it had an effect on me at that point in time.

[83] I hated the police.

[84] I hated the government.

[85] I hated anything about law enforcement because I saw them as the enemy, the way they, you know, harassing my dad, harassing my family, at least in my view at that point.

[86] So it did shape, you know, my, my worldview of those people at that time.

[87] And they were parked outside your house, I read.

[88] They, we had six or seven different agencies parked around our house.

[89] And every time we left, there was a parade of law enforcement vehicles following us.

[90] I mean, it was that severe with my dad.

[91] I've never seen anything like that, quite honestly.

[92] You know, other people have had surveillance.

[93] But I guess because I grew up and I witnessed that I was part of it.

[94] But it was so intense with him.

[95] It really was.

[96] Did you know why they were there and did you know what your dad was doing?

[97] You know, it was hard not to, although he never sat down with me and said to me, this is what I'm all about.

[98] It was basically from other people, from what I read and what I witnessed.

[99] So, yeah, I mean, I knew what he was about, but I thought it was a good thing, you know, because, you know, his friends came to the house.

[100] To me, they were like Uncle Joe, Uncle this, Uncle that, good people.

[101] You know, we'd go out together.

[102] So I thought it was a good thing at that time.

[103] what was he about my dad yeah yeah a very charismatic guy you know a good father i mean he wanted the best for me he didn't want me in this life originally wanted me to go to school be a doctor get an education stay off the street that was his initial desire for me um it was a good husband to my mother i thought at that time but you know he had that other side of him that once or twice growing up i kind of witnessed.

[104] And I saw there was something else, you know, with it.

[105] What did you witness?

[106] You know, I'll never forget.

[107] It was really two things that happened.

[108] I was, he was taking me up.

[109] My dad was involved in the music business.

[110] So he was taking me into Manhattan to meet with some of the people, you know, just his daily work.

[111] And along the way, he had to stop, and he had to meet with somebody.

[112] And I was in the car, and two of his guys that I knew very well with my dad, and they were talking to this guy and the conversation got very heated.

[113] And I see my dad really angry, never saw him like that before.

[114] And Steve, I'm not kidding.

[115] At least this was a kid's impression.

[116] I was young.

[117] He just picked that guy up like his throat and had him up against the wall.

[118] And I saw the guy was horror -strick.

[119] And I never saw my dad like that before because he didn't he didn't hit us or anything his kids.

[120] You know, I had brothers and sisters.

[121] He didn't treat us that.

[122] My mom was tough.

[123] My mom forget her.

[124] She didn't spare the rob.

[125] But my dad was not.

[126] So to see him like that, I said, wow, there is really another side of him, you know, a street side of him.

[127] You said there was another experience.

[128] Another experience, it was kind of funny, but in a way it wasn't.

[129] We had a carpenter that was working in our house, and he was kind of a, his name was Sal, I'll never forget, a big guy, huge guy.

[130] And he would never finish anything on time, the carpentry.

[131] My dad would hire him because he probably didn't have to pay him much, right?

[132] And my mom was always on him, you know, a guy who comes, he don't finish.

[133] the job and all of that and came to the house once and my dad just just went off on and punched him like in the house and knocked the guy out and you know in front of all of us we were kind of surprised but he said don't blame me your mother's nagging me too much i can't take it you know it's one of those things so those as a young person those were the two things that i really witnessed with him those were clues those were clues of something else those were a window into his other life And what was his other life?

[134] What was the reality of his other life, as you've come to understand it?

[135] Well, another thing, and this, it's amazing how you can remember things sometimes at a young age, but you can't really put it together.

[136] I have to go back.

[137] The first real incident that I had is I was probably four years old.

[138] And we were living in Brooklyn, but my dad had moved us out, me and my mom, to Long Island, where my grandparents were.

[139] We were living in their house for a while.

[140] and I didn't see my dad for a couple of days.

[141] He's gone.

[142] And then one morning he comes in, and my dad had a heavy beard.

[143] He hadn't shaved.

[144] And his right -hand man was just standing out on the porch, kind of standing guard.

[145] And my dad came in, hugged my mother.

[146] My mother was a little upset, so he was crying.

[147] Then he came over and hug me. I was sitting on the step in my grandmother's house.

[148] I was saying, what was this all about?

[149] He was there for about a half an hour, and then he left.

[150] Well, but I didn't find out until later on, our family, the Colombo family, was at war at that point.

[151] And so my dad was not at home.

[152] It's kind of dangerous to be at home.

[153] And, you know, it lasted for a while.

[154] And I didn't know what that meant at that time.

[155] You know, it's you, you look back and you put these things together later on.

[156] So really, I would say it was those three incidents.

[157] But look, my dad was a, you know, he was a captain in that life and then an underboss in that life.

[158] We had a very high position, powerful position.

[159] A lot of people around him, a lot of guys that were subordinate to him.

[160] And, you know, he was big time in that life.

[161] He was a captain and an underboss.

[162] Yeah.

[163] I have been trying to understand the structure of a Mafia family.

[164] So I printed off this to try and understand it from what I can see.

[165] And I'll put this on the screen for anyone that's interested in pin it below.

[166] Is that somewhat accurate in terms of the structure of a Mafia family?

[167] Yeah.

[168] Yeah, that's it.

[169] These are, this is the true rankings.

[170] And that's the, I mean, there's a boss and an underboss, and the consulieri is kind of an advisor to the boss.

[171] And then you have the capo regimes is the real term for it, or capos.

[172] And they are, they're kind of the street bosses.

[173] They're an elevated position.

[174] And then you have the soldiers, which is the first official rank.

[175] When you get made, the term is made.

[176] The night that you take the oath, and you become an official member of that life, your rank as a soldier.

[177] And the associates are guys that are around us, but never taken the oath.

[178] They're not full -fledged members.

[179] They're just associates.

[180] So from the bottom up, the bottom level is the associates.

[181] I'm going to repeat this back to you to make sure I've got it.

[182] And they haven't taken the earth, so they've not become what you call made men.

[183] Correct.

[184] The soldiers are the first level that have taken the oath.

[185] And they report into capos.

[186] Yes.

[187] And the capos report into the underboss?

[188] Capos can go right to the boss also.

[189] Okay.

[190] And then there's the boss above the underboss?

[191] Yes, he's the boss.

[192] He's the official ruler of the family.

[193] And your dad became an underboss?

[194] Underboss, yes.

[195] So he was one below the boss?

[196] Yes.

[197] And you mentioned your family had a certain name.

[198] What was that name?

[199] Colombo.

[200] Colombo.

[201] Yeah.

[202] What is the, because I think I need to understand the kind of history of the mafia to understand what Colombo is.

[203] Yes.

[204] Well, you know, originated in Italy, obviously, Sicily.

[205] And it was originally just a group in Italy that banned together to protect their towns from marauders that were coming in and, you know, doing damage in the towns and the cities.

[206] And eventually, for some reason, they started becoming a little bit of a criminal, you know, body.

[207] And then they migrated many of them to New York, you know, back in 190.

[208] 2001, I think the earliest in the late, late 19, I think it was maybe in 1885 or something like that, was when they first started coming here to the United States.

[209] Came legally, went through Ellis Island and came in legally.

[210] And originally, the guys that came in, they were just kind of preying on their own people in the cities that, you know, they got into.

[211] And, you know, I can go through all of this, but you go back to the days of Al Capone.

[212] You know, you've heard that name, who originally came from Brooklyn, then went out to Chicago.

[213] And I always say this.

[214] They were obviously involved in criminal activity, you know, loan shocking, lending money at usurious rates, extorting some of the shop owners, you know, for protection, getting money out of them, a little bit of the gambling business.

[215] But what really happened, I always say this, it was the government, the United States government, that made the mafia strong in the United States.

[216] And when did they do that with prohibition?

[217] Because it was then that the guys realized, hey, people want this.

[218] They want to drink.

[219] The government is, you know, banning it, but we're going to allow them to have it.

[220] And so they started to create, they got into the illegal booze business, basically.

[221] And to give you the extent to that, in New York State alone, there were 36 ,000 speakeas, which were illegal bars at the time.

[222] 36 ,000 in New York alone, and the mafia controlled all of them.

[223] And people wanted it, and they gave it to them.

[224] And it was extremely lucrative.

[225] I mean, you're talking, you know, in today's money, billions of dollars.

[226] And that's what started to create this organization.

[227] And then in the 40s, Lucky Luciano, who again came from Italy, saw that a lot of the guys were starting to war among each other.

[228] It was always power and control and money.

[229] And he said, we're not going to exist.

[230] We're not going to survive like this.

[231] We have to become an organization, a business.

[232] And he's the one that created the Mafia Commission and split it up into families.

[233] Actually, at that time, there were nine families nationwide.

[234] And there were bosses of each family.

[235] And that's how this whole structure came about.

[236] It was in the 40s.

[237] It was actually him, Meyer Lansky, who played a significant role, even though Myerlansky was not a maid guy because he was Jewish and you have to be of Italian descent.

[238] But he was a right -hand man to Lucky Luchano.

[239] And that's when the mafia really came to be here in the United States.

[240] So the mafia was this one organization.

[241] And then Lucky Luchiano, did you say?

[242] Yes.

[243] He split it into lots of families.

[244] Correct.

[245] Were those families actually related by blood in any way?

[246] No. Was it just, when you say split it into families, was he, did he essentially just appoint lots of CEOs to run different parts of the same organization.

[247] Yeah, it was called a family.

[248] I mean, you could have called it a group or whatever you wanted to call it, but we called it families.

[249] And no, they weren't necessarily related.

[250] And somebody emerged in that group as the top guy and he officially appointed them as the boss.

[251] And in order to have a seat on the commission, which was the ruling body of all of these families nationwide, you had to be the boss or representative of your family.

[252] that the boss designated, and you can then sit on the commission, and the commission allegedly created policy for all of the families nationwide.

[253] And that's how it worked.

[254] Allegedly.

[255] Allegedly because, you know, I got to understand that the commission was like the United Nations.

[256] Sounds good, you know, and they're going to create policy, but really you can't tell a boss of his own family what to do.

[257] He has total autonomy.

[258] So it sounded good.

[259] and sometimes the commission will make a policy that people will respect, but if the boss of that family doesn't want to, they don't have to.

[260] And how big were the families?

[261] In New York, we had five families, and in each of the total made guys in those families was about 750 guys.

[262] You know, the Gambino family had about 250 guys, and this is through my era.

[263] Genevice family, 250 guys.

[264] Bonanno family, Colombo family, Lucchese.

[265] is we had about a hundred and some odd each.

[266] We were the smaller families.

[267] But you had totaled about 750 made men, guys that actually took the oath.

[268] And then we had a lot of associates, you know, hundreds.

[269] So we had a big presence, especially in New York.

[270] And did the families fight each other even in New York?

[271] Were there arguments amongst families?

[272] Prior to the 40s, yes.

[273] When the commission was created, yes.

[274] They would go to war among each other.

[275] Once that commission was created, there was no wars among the families.

[276] Anytime there was a war, it was a civil war, and it was always a war for power.

[277] Our family, the Colombo family, we were one of the more violent warring families.

[278] We had three wars during my lifetime in the Colombo's, and it was always for power, who wanted to be the boss.

[279] You don't have elections.

[280] Somebody wants to take over, it's a power struggle, and however it turns out, it turns out.

[281] Within the family.

[282] Within the family.

[283] Now, other families could say, okay, we throw our support behind you, but not with manpower.

[284] It's, you know, whoever you're rooting for at that point.

[285] But, no, things was solved.

[286] You know, once the commission came into place in the family, things were solved amicably, usually, you know, peacefully.

[287] But there was always a lot of disagreements.

[288] There was a lot of sit -downs, you know, to straighten things out.

[289] We had a lot of that.

[290] You know, I was very active in that life, and I was going to sit down every other day, you know, trying to resolve something.

[291] Either one of my crazy guys got in trouble or it was a business situation, it was a lot of that.

[292] What is a sit -down?

[293] I was reading about this in your work, and I found it quite interesting because I think sometimes in business as a CEO, maybe we should emulate this idea of having a sit -down.

[294] We have a lot of meetings and a lot of emails and stuff like that, but it seems like you have a pure way of dealing with things.

[295] We do.

[296] Sit -down was the way we resolved everything, everything.

[297] We sat down, they were structured.

[298] When I say structured, you had, normally the boss was in control of that.

[299] was a serious one rather than two captains or capos getting together.

[300] You had to bring the boss in.

[301] He was the final rule.

[302] What he says goes, like it or not.

[303] And there was rules.

[304] If you're a made guy and I'm a made guy and we're arguing over a business issue and you're lying through your teeth, I can't call you a liar.

[305] If I call you a liar, I lose the argument automatically because I disrespected you.

[306] They have to be respectful to meetings.

[307] So if a guy's lying, got to figure out how to let the boss understand that without calling him a liar.

[308] And then at the end of this, you know, whatever decision the boss makes, that's it.

[309] There's no appeals.

[310] There's no nothing.

[311] Shake hands.

[312] Get up and you leave.

[313] And that's the final ruling.

[314] So you mentioned this.

[315] I wrote a book.

[316] It was actually a business book.

[317] I'll make you an offer you can't refuse.

[318] Harper Collins was the publisher.

[319] After they heard about that, they said, we're not having any more meetings from now on the wall sit downs.

[320] He said, that's it.

[321] You know, because it was a lot more efficient.

[322] What kind of things would get resolved in a sit -down?

[323] Normally business disputes.

[324] And then sometimes, quite honestly, you know, look, that's a life with serious consequences.

[325] And if somebody violated policy, made a mistake to the point where he was going to pay for it seriously, you had to sit down to decide his fate, basically.

[326] People speaking for him, people speaking against him, and then the boss would make the final ruling.

[327] So that could be, you know, a serious sit -down, could be a business matter.

[328] So if in the case of deciding someone's fate, would the person you were deciding their fate, would they be sat there?

[329] No. So it'd be someone on basically speaking.

[330] Yes.

[331] On behalf of one side of that decision.

[332] Correct.

[333] Things like whether this person should live.

[334] Correct.

[335] Have you ever been in a sit -down where people were discussing if someone should live?

[336] And you've seen it go both ways.

[337] Yes.

[338] Your father got sent to prison when you were 19?

[339] Yeah.

[340] Well, he finally, he was in and out before that, but he started to do time on that 50 -year prison sentence.

[341] I was 19.

[342] How did that change your life?

[343] Through everything I read, you really loved this man. I loved him.

[344] He's a good dad.

[345] And he wanted the best for me at that point.

[346] And he taught me great things.

[347] I mean, he really did.

[348] And, you know, the one advantage I had in my life, and again, taught to me by my dad, he always said, son, be a good listener, listen before you speak, you know, be careful.

[349] Don't, you know, don't speak out of turn.

[350] He always told me to be a good listener.

[351] So the person I listened to the most was him.

[352] And he taught me well in that regard.

[353] So I had a lot of love and respect for my dad.

[354] And when he went away, it was devastating because he was 50 years old when he went into prison figure you had 50 on top of that he'd never come out of prison alive that's what we thought you know so it was it was uh it was tough i can almost still see the emotion in you when you talk about him going away to prison yeah it was a defining moment in my life because you know i i realized things were going to dramatically change i mean i was the oldest with my mom had three younger brothers and sisters and um i knew i had a player role in that, you know, and taking care of my mom because my dad, when he went away, he said, listen, I'm entrusting the family to you.

[355] He said, you know, be a good son and take care of your brothers and sisters, take care of your mother.

[356] So, I mean, I had that responsibility.

[357] And I was doing that anyway, because during many of my dad's trials, my mom would go and I would, one time he was, you know, tried a couple of hundred miles away from us.

[358] They moved the venue to Albany, New York, and I'm in Long Island.

[359] So my mom would be away for three or four days at a time with my dad.

[360] I'd be watching the kids.

[361] So, I mean, I took on that rule early on, but then when he went away, it became a lot more, you know, serious.

[362] Your life when he went away, you were studying to be a doctor.

[363] Be a doctor?

[364] Yeah.

[365] It's hard to imagine the sort of turn of events that happened in your life at that point.

[366] When you're studying to be a doctor, your dad goes to prison, and it ends up changing the trajectory of your...

[367] life, it ends up swaying you towards the life he had just come from.

[368] And you say that he was wrongly imprisoned.

[369] My dad was framed on that case.

[370] Framed?

[371] Yeah, 100%.

[372] I'll take it to my grave, Steve.

[373] He was supposedly masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies.

[374] And, you know, when my dad first went away, I was with him in the visiting room.

[375] We were in the jail.

[376] And I looked I said, Dad, bank robbery?

[377] And he looked at me and he said, son, I'm innocent.

[378] I'm not a bank robber.

[379] I didn't order these bank robber.

[380] I was framed.

[381] Government framed me. My dad had never lied to me to that point.

[382] And he said, we got to work to overturn this conviction.

[383] And why did I believe?

[384] First of all, he never lied to me, so I believed it.

[385] But the four witnesses that testified against him were all drug addicts.

[386] My dad, my entire life preached against drugs to me. He used to make up stories.

[387] parables, to show me the dangers of drugs, all of us, all the kids, so that we would never get involved.

[388] He hated anything to do with drugs.

[389] Always spoke about it.

[390] So I never saw my dad as a hypocrite in that regard.

[391] He wouldn't associate with these people, no less do bank robberies with them.

[392] So it made it very real.

[393] And so it angered me in some ways, but it motivated me to say, you know what, I can't let my dad die in here, you know?

[394] And then at the same time, I was getting very close to Joe Colombo, who was the boss of our family, Colombo family.

[395] And he kind of took me under his wing because, you know, he, obviously my dad was his underboss.

[396] And I started to meet a lot more of my dad's friends.

[397] And they would say to me, Mike, what are you doing going to school?

[398] If you don't help your father out, he's going to die in prison.

[399] So I was very, it affected me in a big way.

[400] I said, I can't let that happen.

[401] And even though my dad did not want me involved in the life, but I went to visit him in a visiting room in Leavenworth Penitentiary.

[402] I said, Dad, I'm not going to school anymore.

[403] If I don't help you out, you're going to die in here.

[404] And we kind of argued about it because he was disappointed.

[405] He didn't want that for me. He knew the life was tough.

[406] He didn't want it for me. He wanted for any of those kids.

[407] But I was pretty headstrong as a kid.

[408] And I said, Dad, my mind is made up.

[409] I lost interest of school.

[410] I'm not going to go.

[411] I said, you're wasting your breath.

[412] And basically, he looked at me, Steve, and I don't ever want to be offensive to the audience, but he looked at me and he said, okay, but if you're going to be on the street, Then I want you on the street the right way.

[413] In his mind, the right way was to become a member of his life.

[414] So he looked at me and he said, I got to ask you a question, very serious.

[415] I said, go ahead.

[416] He said, if you ever had to kill anybody, could you do it?

[417] And I said, Dad, under the right circumstances, yeah, I could do it.

[418] He said, that's the right answer.

[419] He said to me, then he looked at me and he said, go home.

[420] Somebody's going to be in touch with you, do what you're told.

[421] That's all he said.

[422] He didn't break it down.

[423] He didn't said, this is what's required of you, nothing.

[424] Because, you know, Steve, that's a secret life.

[425] You're not supposed to talk about that life with anybody outside of it.

[426] My dad wouldn't violate that policy, even with me, his own son.

[427] He just figured, okay, kids got it in him.

[428] Go home and do what you're told.

[429] And I didn't question him.

[430] I said, okay, Dad, this is what you want.

[431] Just point me in the right direction.

[432] I mean, that's the kind of bond that we had together at that point.

[433] And I left there, and that's how things started for me. When you answered that question your dad asked you, were you telling the truth?

[434] Yeah.

[435] I mean, obviously I'd never been in that situation, but I thought about it.

[436] And I don't remember what rolled through my mind at that point.

[437] Did I say to myself, well, this is the answer my dad wants?

[438] Or did I say to myself, yeah, I could really do it?

[439] As I sit here now, all these years later, I can't honestly answer that.

[440] But the answer was yes.

[441] He didn't ever try and stop you?

[442] Or did he?

[443] Did he ever try and persuade you out of joining the Mafia?

[444] No. I mean, prior to that point, that's not what he wanted for me. But once I made up my mind, I think there was a feeling of pride or joy in my dad.

[445] I kind of seen it in him.

[446] And that, you know, once I did become a made guy, he was overjoyed.

[447] He was thrilled.

[448] How did he or anyone else think that you joining the Mafia would help him?

[449] Simple.

[450] Needed money for attorneys.

[451] I had kind of a business head.

[452] My dad knew that we needed to track down witnesses and people that were involved in the case that could, you know, say this was a frame -up.

[453] And that's exactly what I did.

[454] I mean, I went after all of these witnesses to try to find them and get them to recant their testimony.

[455] I worked with the lawyers as a result of that.

[456] And eventually did get, you know, three of the witnesses to recant their testimony, gave them lie -detected test, proved they lied at the trial, that the FBI had gone along with the story that they made.

[457] up because my father was such a, they wanted him so bad.

[458] They really did.

[459] I mean, if you go back to the 60s and you look at the amount of media attention he had, you know, you wouldn't believe it.

[460] But so the FBI at that time, I believe, was complicit in this frame -up because they might have known that these guys were lying.

[461] One of the, one of the witnesses told me that when they agreed to cooperate with the government, they were going to put these bank robbery.

[462] or to make the mastermind somebody else.

[463] And they actually did.

[464] A guy by name of Tony Polici.

[465] They said, well, he was the original guy that told us how to do these bank robberies.

[466] And then when the FBI told him, this came right from the witness.

[467] The FBI told him, well, that'll get you some time off, but I ain't going to go that far.

[468] We don't care about Tony Polici.

[469] A guy like Sunny Franzee, that would matter.

[470] And then they went and they concocted this story because, Steve, the thing is, they committed all the bank robberies, every one of them.

[471] And they described it, great detail at the trial.

[472] And all they said was that Sunny Francis ordered them at a meeting that we had once at the Q motor in.

[473] And why did they pick the night for the meeting?

[474] Because my dad was under constant surveillance.

[475] And the FBI told them what day my dad would be available to that wouldn't have an alibi.

[476] It was probably sitting at home.

[477] Wouldn't have an alibi to say that he wasn't at that meeting.

[478] So they structured this whole thing.

[479] And many people afterwards, have said, Sonny would never associate with these type of guys.

[480] So, you know, all those things came together.

[481] And I really, like I said, look, I went to jail for a crime I was guilty of, pled guilty did my time.

[482] But this particular crime that my dad did, I'd take it to my grave.

[483] He was not, he was no bankrupt.

[484] Was your dad a good guy?

[485] I thought so.

[486] I mean, yeah.

[487] Listen, people liked him.

[488] My dad was very well liked.

[489] Objectively.

[490] As you sit here today, do you think he was a, a net positive.

[491] Listen, my dad, look, I'm going to tell you this.

[492] You know, the word on the street from the FBI, my dad was involved in 30, 35 murders.

[493] No, he never admitted that to me about anyone in particular.

[494] He was indicted for one murder and he was acquitted in that case, found not guilty.

[495] But my dad was, he was a tough guy.

[496] There's no question.

[497] So, if he was involved in 35 murders, as the FBI suggests, do you think he was better?

[498] off behind bars.

[499] What I'm getting at here really is if they framed him, was it a net benefit to society that they framed him?

[500] Well, you know, Steve, let me, I know there's going to be a tough one, but let me tell you how I think.

[501] The right and just side of me, the legally just side of me, says that the government is never allowed to break the law, to uphold the law, because if you allow that to happen, then it falls into monarchy and people are not protected.

[502] Because if they do it against sunny francies, they can do it against anybody.

[503] So I believe strictly, the government has enough tools and weapons to get people the right way.

[504] And they do 96, 97 % of the time.

[505] They shouldn't be allowed to violate the law to go after a criminal.

[506] That's my feeling on it.

[507] Now, another thing is this.

[508] People think when we take an oath, the oath of America, it's an oath to stay silent.

[509] It's not an oath to lie, steal, cheat, and kill.

[510] Does that happen as part of that light?

[511] Yes.

[512] But we're told straight out.

[513] Now, try to understand the thinking here.

[514] You come into that life, you told straight out.

[515] We have rules.

[516] You don't ever violate another man's wife, daughter, sister, girl, never.

[517] That'll cause you to die.

[518] During my era, we weren't allowed to deal with drugs.

[519] You get caught.

[520] You die.

[521] You maybe do some other things.

[522] You're not honest with people, you disrespect somebody, you hit another made guy, you die.

[523] Now, we understand that.

[524] And they tell you, your best friend may be the one that pulls a trigger because the life comes before anything.

[525] That's it.

[526] You don't violate the rules.

[527] That's how we maintain control in this life.

[528] That's how we existed for 100 years.

[529] And that's how it's going to stay.

[530] So now you're saying, okay, we all agreed to this.

[531] We all admitted it.

[532] If one of us decides to violate the policy of the law, and we get caught.

[533] Well, we understand the consequences.

[534] So that's how I looked at it, and that's how I justified it.

[535] Now, does that say you can go out and start to do random killings?

[536] No. If the boss tells you to go kill somebody because he doesn't like him and you do it, that's not right.

[537] But if we kill our own, and you know, you hear a lot of times, well, we only kill our own.

[538] Well, we don't only kill our own.

[539] But if we only kill our own, knowing that we made that choice, well, then, okay, I kind of get it in a way.

[540] Even though murder is murder and it's a crime and it's sinful and I understand that.

[541] But that's how you justify it.

[542] But it wasn't the case that you only killed your own.

[543] Well, for some of us it was and for others it was not.

[544] And I've seen both sides of that.

[545] You've never talked about having to kill someone, have you?

[546] No. Why is that?

[547] It's just not a subject I care to get into, you know?

[548] Listen, I like to be as honest as I possibly can because I am a Christian and you don't want to lie to people.

[549] But it's not something I want to talk about.

[550] I was wondering, because when I read that, I thought maybe it's because, you know, there's something might be legal retribution.

[551] Maybe it's because, you know, it's not nice for people to hear about.

[552] Maybe it's because there's still some kind of like rule where you can't say anything.

[553] But I wondered why.

[554] Maybe it's all of the above.

[555] I don't know.

[556] Well, you know, Steve, look, there's guys, there's a lot of guys on the street now.

[557] And if you go on YouTube, you'll see a number of them.

[558] And they've admitted to murders that they were involved in.

[559] These are made guys.

[560] And they've admitted to it.

[561] And many of them had struck a deal with the government.

[562] They had immunity for the crimes they'd committed, even murder.

[563] I mean, the government give you immunity for murder if you want to, if they want you to cooperate.

[564] and help them out.

[565] It's amazing, but they'll do it.

[566] And so they have immunity.

[567] They could talk about their crimes.

[568] I didn't cooperate to that level at all.

[569] I don't have immunity for anything that I've done in the past, you know?

[570] And listen, you know, our laws here in the United States, if you were standing next to somebody when they murdered somebody else, you're there, you could, you could be charged for murder the same way to them.

[571] So, you know, I'm saying I was in that position.

[572] I'm just saying that's the law.

[573] So, you know, why talk about it?

[574] Number one and number two, Murder is ugly, you know, it's ugly.

[575] And you don't ever want to talk about it.

[576] I mean, I don't, if I were to do something like that, I wouldn't be proud of it.

[577] I'm not trying to throw my chest out and say, hey, look what I could do.

[578] Guys go to war.

[579] They tell people all the time, you know, in defense of our country or defensive.

[580] So, I mean, it's not like, oh, God, you know, nobody.

[581] I mean, murder happens every single day.

[582] Who wants to talk about it?

[583] Some people do.

[584] I know.

[585] Not me. You got closer to the Mafia when your father was sent down, and this was the point where you decided not to go to school, the boss of the Colombo family, that brings you close, brings you under his wing.

[586] Do you have to do some kind of training or something to join the Mafia, or is there any, or you do?

[587] Oh, yeah.

[588] Well, when you come into it, here's what happened.

[589] I leave there.

[590] A captain and a family picked me up and took me to see the boss.

[591] Now, unfortunately, Joe Colombo was assassinated.

[592] He was shot, seriously wounded.

[593] He lingered for about seven years, and then he died as a result of these wounds.

[594] So a new boss took over, and he's passed away now.

[595] And I sat with him.

[596] This was about two weeks after my father sent word downtown that he was proposing me to be part of that life.

[597] You can't just go up to somebody to say, I'd like to join.

[598] Somebody has to propose you, vouch for you, say you have what it takes.

[599] There's a lot of nepotism in that life.

[600] A lot of fathers brought their sons in, their nephews, whatever.

[601] So in my case, it was my dad that proposed me. and so I sat with the boss and he said to me here's the deal you want to become a member of our life your father sent the message is that true and I said yes he's well here's the deal from now on 24 hours a day seven days a week you're on call to serve this family the colombo family that means if your mother is sick and she's dying you're at her bedside we call you to service you leave your mother you come and serve us from now on we're number one in your life before anything and everything, when and if we feel you've deserved this privilege, this honor to become a member, we'll let you know.

[602] That's it.

[603] And do you accept that?

[604] And I said, yes, I do.

[605] And so over the next two and a half years, I was in like a recruit pledge period where I had to do anything and everything I was told to do, prove myself worthy.

[606] Could have been something very menial, a lot of discipline in that life, a lot of authority, a lot of alleged respect.

[607] You had a meeting at 8 o 'clock.

[608] You weren't there at 7 .30.

[609] You were late.

[610] You could never be late in that life.

[611] I don't care.

[612] what the situation is.

[613] You had a meeting at 8 o 'clock.

[614] If there was traffic and you were concerned, come the night before and sleep in the car.

[615] It can never be late.

[616] No excuses.

[617] You know, drive the boss to a meeting, sit in a car three, four, five hours.

[618] God forbid you leave.

[619] You go to a restroom, get a newspaper.

[620] He comes out.

[621] You're not there.

[622] Oh, my gosh, we could have had trouble.

[623] You were the getaway driver.

[624] You weren't there.

[625] I know I did that once, and I paid the price for it.

[626] That's very serious stuff.

[627] You paid the price.

[628] Well, paid the price.

[629] In other words, I got a real good tongue lashing.

[630] I'll tell you, you know, just stuff like that.

[631] They kind of put you on the shelf for two weeks, you know, to make you understand the seriousness of what you did, so you never do it again.

[632] You never repeat your mistakes in that life.

[633] If you're smart, you want to, if you number one want to survive and number two, you want to move up, you never repeat your mistakes.

[634] So, you know, things like that.

[635] And then look, I'm going to be honest with you, you know, as honest as I possibly can.

[636] It's a violent life at times.

[637] If you're part of the life in some shape or form, part of the violence.

[638] And if anybody tells you differently, they're either not being honest or they weren't a made member of that life.

[639] And that's just how it goes.

[640] Why did you say that?

[641] Because you said the menial and then you said it's a violent life.

[642] Are you saying that in that sort of probationary two years, you had to do both of those things.

[643] You had to be involved in the violence and do the menial stuff.

[644] Let's put it this way.

[645] They've got to have enough faith in you that you can be capable of doing whatever it is they tell you to do.

[646] They have to understand that and feel that.

[647] Because if they don't feel that, you're not going anywhere.

[648] That's it.

[649] So during that time, you're going to be tested.

[650] And you were tested?

[651] Yeah.

[652] When they made you pledge that if your mother was dying and you were at her bedside and they called you and asked you to do something, you'd leave, would you have left if your mother was dying?

[653] Back then, I mean, I might have.

[654] I mean, you know, I was a play by the rule guy.

[655] you know i uh you know i was very fortunate in that i had a great teacher in my dad he was a student and master of the life and so and i was like a sponge i absorbed whatever my dad told me i listened and you know some of the things that he told me were right so i might have at the time i'm going to be honest with you i mean i i don't know it it would have to depend on what's happening at that moment but you know i was so indoctrinated into that life at some point point, it's who I was.

[656] Sounds a bit like a cult.

[657] In a way.

[658] It's cult -like, I guess, you know, in a way.

[659] I mean, we didn't do silly things, you know, when we wouldn't have rituals and ceremonies other than that one.

[660] Sounds like that one.

[661] Other than that one, nothing after that.

[662] But what did it teach you about people skills?

[663] Because you're around these bosses, these very talented men.

[664] You're seeing how they conduct themselves.

[665] influence people, win friends.

[666] What did that phase of your life teach you about how to be a motivator slash manipulator of people?

[667] Yeah, it taught me well.

[668] I think I got to, you know, there's kind of two levels in that life.

[669] You're either a racketeer or you're a gangster.

[670] What's the difference?

[671] I'll tell you the difference.

[672] A gangster is a guy that really doesn't know how to use that life to benefit him in business.

[673] So he's more of a, I don't want to say tough guy, I don't want to say the term, but he's more of a guy that, hey, we had something done, this is the guy, send him out, let him do it, because you've got to earn your keep in that life.

[674] We, in the Colombo family, we had 115 made guys at that time.

[675] Out of the 115, 20 of us were really earning money and supporting the family in some way and really elevating the family.

[676] We were racketeers.

[677] Now, a gangster could never really be a racketeer.

[678] He just doesn't know how.

[679] But a racketeer has to be a gangster also, because you're going to be called upon.

[680] Not as much as this guy, but when you're called upon, you've got to do it.

[681] So, you know, I was more of a racketeer, and as a result of that, I was constantly in business disputes and sitting down with other guys.

[682] And you have to learn, you know, how to negotiate.

[683] I mean, I learned the art of negotiation at these sit downs, you know, learned how to try to, you know, really before I walk into a meeting with, with somebody.

[684] Number one, try to know the personality of that person, know if there's a fallback position, if I'm not winning, what I'll accept.

[685] And so I had to prepare myself for these meetings, because unprepared, you know, they'll chew you up.

[686] Because a lot of these old times were very skillful.

[687] And believe me, you could be 100 % right and end up wrong.

[688] And they'll put you in a trap.

[689] So you really had to know what you were doing.

[690] And so my people skills in that regard, as far as negotiating and identifying a true leader were really honed to a, you know, a high degree because I came out on top many, many times.

[691] What are the principles, in your view, of a good sell or a good negotiation?

[692] Are there small things that you saw within the mafia that you probably don't see in the outside world?

[693] One of them you've already named, which is this idea of being really punctual.

[694] But it seems like respect is at the very heart of much of what you've said.

[695] What are those small things that are important for a negotiation or a sales pitch in your view?

[696] Well, understand, you know, again, you know, I always learn this.

[697] There's sometimes you can walk into a room and be the smartest person in the room.

[698] You don't want anybody to know that.

[699] And you want people to just talk.

[700] Let, you know, just talk.

[701] Give them an opening.

[702] Give them, throw them a bone so that they're going to come back and talk and learn the person.

[703] personality of this person.

[704] You can learn so much from people just when they talk and you keep quiet.

[705] There's other times when you're not the smartest person in the room.

[706] And by keeping quiet, nobody knows that.

[707] What is this guy thinking?

[708] What, you know, what is this thinking?

[709] It's a tremendous technique.

[710] And in that life, it was extremely valuable for me. I was always the last guy to talk.

[711] Tell me everything, you know.

[712] And it helped me kind of master that art in that life because you had, these guys never sell them short.

[713] There were some very smart guys there.

[714] If they weren't in that life, they would have been successful somewhere else, you know, very smart.

[715] So you had to really know what you were doing because the consequences too were very severe.

[716] I mean, you could walk in there and lose your shirt, you know, because the boss could say, hey, not only you're going to pay this guy this, but you're going to pay the family, everything else.

[717] And everything you got, I'm taking away from you right now.

[718] That's how severe it could have been.

[719] So yes, you really had to know.

[720] I'll tell you this, when I, I think, you know, I was in the gas business, right?

[721] The gas tax business.

[722] I was defrauding the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline.

[723] It was probably the biggest scam since the days of prohibition.

[724] Explain to me how that was even possible.

[725] The law at that time is that the gas tax was collected by a wholesaler.

[726] You had to be a licensed wholesaler.

[727] But the government really wasn't up to their collection process.

[728] So, to make a long story short, I had 18 companies that were licensed to collect the tax on every gallon of gasoline.

[729] They were all shell companies, every single one of them, all right?

[730] And they were all Panamanian companies.

[731] Why Panama?

[732] Because Panama, a corporation in Panama had bare stock.

[733] You give me the stock?

[734] I'm the owner.

[735] I give it to you, you're the owner.

[736] So we didn't have to give a lot of information.

[737] The only reason I needed the company was number one to get the license, and number two, to open a bank account.

[738] I didn't need brick or more.

[739] I need anything, right?

[740] That's all I needed.

[741] So now I'm allowed to collect the tax.

[742] Well, we had a very sophisticated process or strategy to collect that tax for about 10, 11, sometimes a whole year before the government came down on us because we had a report, we had to pay quarterly and so on or so.

[743] They were very slow.

[744] They're very slow.

[745] So we had a way to keep them at bay for almost a year.

[746] When they finally came down on us, we closed the office, closed the, that license and just started operating under a new license.

[747] Well, I ran this for seven years.

[748] So just to summarize I'll make sure I'm clear, you had the supply chain coming from Panama?

[749] That was where the No, we had the companies were Panamanian companies.

[750] Ah, okay, right.

[751] So where was the gas coming from?

[752] We were buying barges as they came over from the Middle East, and we were buying gas from all the major oil companies.

[753] Ah, okay.

[754] So you bought the gas with a shell company in Panama.

[755] which allowed you to get the wholesale license so that you could collect the tax from the retailer of the gas, and then you would sell it to the retailer, and then when the government come for their tax, maybe 12 months later, you say, sorry, the company's gone bust and you shut it down.

[756] You would say anything.

[757] The door would be closed.

[758] There would be nobody there.

[759] They wouldn't even know where to go.

[760] Okay.

[761] Yeah.

[762] So were you then giving the retailer a discount on the gas?

[763] Yes.

[764] Okay.

[765] You know, the way I do it, let's say, you know, and I had 350 gas stations, they either owned or operated, 300 plus gas stations.

[766] We either owned or operated, leased, whatever.

[767] But if we would go buy a gas station on a corner where there were four stations and you have a lot of that in New York, we would buy one station, lease one station.

[768] It could have been a mobile, any brand, it didn't matter.

[769] And we'd get the other three station owners and say, come here, we want to talk to you.

[770] Here's the deal.

[771] Okay, whatever you sell the gas for, we're going to be two cents cheaper.

[772] If you go down five, we'll go down 10.

[773] If you go down 10, we'll go down 20 because I had 40 cents to work with in most cases.

[774] I said, we'll put you out of business.

[775] So just stay, understand that we're going to stay two cents.

[776] We don't want to kill you.

[777] We want you to earn money, but we're always going to be cheaper.

[778] Before you know it, they're buying all their gas from us anyway.

[779] So we were selling all four stations being supplied by us.

[780] Because look, the gas station owner, if you're saving them five, six, seven cents a gallon, 10 cents a gallon, it's a lot of money, you know, if they're doing volume too.

[781] So we were selling gas to everybody, branded stations, unbranded stations, didn't matter.

[782] And the government just could not keep up with us.

[783] So when I realized what I had, you'll appreciate this.

[784] I went to my boss at the time, Garmai Persigo, he's passed on now.

[785] And we called him Junior, and I said, Jr., here's the deal.

[786] I'm going to show you more money than you've ever seen in your life, because I realized what I had, right?

[787] He says, we don't do drugs.

[788] I says, not drugs.

[789] You know, I hate drugs.

[790] There's nothing to do with drugs.

[791] He's what is it?

[792] I said, it's gas.

[793] Gas.

[794] I said, yes, tax money.

[795] Oh, okay, that's clean.

[796] I said, but here's the deal.

[797] Everybody's going to want a piece of this.

[798] Everybody on the street, when they realize what I have here, they're going to want a piece of it.

[799] So here's what you have to do.

[800] You have to make me win every argument.

[801] I said, anytime I sit down, it doesn't matter what family it is.

[802] I said, don't play politics.

[803] You know, I says, I'm not telling you as the boss what to do, but I'm telling you I'm going to make you wealthy.

[804] So I said, make me win every argument.

[805] I'm going to be right anyway.

[806] I'll come in right.

[807] I said, so make me win.

[808] I'll make you more money than you ever seen before.

[809] I'll never forget, Steve, you just sit back like this.

[810] He said, show me. Okay.

[811] I was bringing him $2 million a week at Buildup, too.

[812] That buys a lot of loyalty and a lot of wins on the street because I was constantly sitting down with people.

[813] They wanted a piece, wanted this, wanted that.

[814] Then if somebody wasn't, I wasn't the only guy in the business.

[815] We just did it better than anybody else.

[816] But if somebody wanted to buy gas from us, I'd say, okay, but you've got to pay.

[817] If you don't pay, it's going to be a problem.

[818] So when people didn't pay, we had to sit down.

[819] I always won.

[820] So it was, I mean, look, at an elevated, I became a captain as a result of the money that I was turning in, and I had a big crew under me. I was living a lifetime, and a jet plane, I had helicopter, we're bringing in $7, $8, $9, $10 million a week at times.

[821] It was that big.

[822] Selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month, taking down $0 .40, $0 .40 a gallon, whatever we decided to charge somebody at that time.

[823] It was a lot of money.

[824] That's a lot of money.

[825] I think I'm in the wrong business.

[826] No, you're in the right for this.

[827] Yeah, from what I understand, you're doing pretty well.

[828] So it's okay.

[829] Seven or eight, seven to ten million a week.

[830] I'm not doing that well.

[831] Wow.

[832] Does this little gas loophole to work?

[833] Let's put it this way.

[834] I'm out of it.

[835] And I don't even want to, I don't even want to be tempted.

[836] So if I wanted to become a made man back then, which is basically when you kind of swear the oath and you join the mafia, that was after your two years.

[837] of sort of probationary period, being an intern.

[838] I mean, that process of becoming a made man sounded a little bit culty.

[839] Well, I'll tell you this, you know, when I got straightened out, and we call it straightened out, believe it or not.

[840] You're straightened out, that's when you become a made man. Right.

[841] You know, the same term.

[842] But that was in 1975.

[843] For 20 years prior to that, almost 25 years, they had a term that the books were closed.

[844] They weren't bringing any new guys into the life.

[845] nationwide.

[846] Security reasons, they said.

[847] The only time you can make a guy is if a guy died in a family, you could replace him.

[848] So you're replacing the ranks.

[849] But you couldn't bring anybody else in.

[850] Well, in the mid -70s, they opened the books.

[851] Okay, now we're going to start to build the families up again.

[852] When I was made, there was guys waiting 20 years, 25 years.

[853] Yeah, that were part of that and just waiting for the day when they can have their turn.

[854] So I was, you know, definitely a younger guy.

[855] I mean, it was a couple of younger guys that got in at that time.

[856] You know, the double -edged sword because there's a lot of resentment to the young guys that got in after two, three years and guys were waiting 20, 25 years, you know, it's like anything else.

[857] Just that you have the resentment from the older guys, and I had to deal with that.

[858] It's just that, again, it's a little more severe on the street than it would be a normal life.

[859] Do you still, you become a maid man, you have to swear an oath to the mafia.

[860] What is that oath that you?

[861] You swear?

[862] Well, for me, it was Halloween night, 1975, when I took the oath.

[863] It was me and five other guys that night.

[864] And you don't have any preparation.

[865] They just tell you wear a suit.

[866] And then all of a sudden, that night it happens.

[867] You kind of get maybe a little inkling because you're waiting for this to happen.

[868] And we walked into a room individually.

[869] It was late at night, very solemn ceremony, a dimly lit room.

[870] The boss was seated at the head of like a horseshoe configuration.

[871] The underboss and the concierie was.

[872] to his left and right, and all the copper regimes were alongside of them.

[873] Soldiers can't attend this.

[874] Only the capos, only the brass of the family.

[875] I walked down the aisle, stood in front of the boss.

[876] I held out my hand.

[877] He took a knife, cut my finger.

[878] Some blood dropped on the floor.

[879] This is a blood oath.

[880] I cupped my hands.

[881] He took a picture of a saint, Catholic alter God, put it in my hands, lit it aflame, didn't hurt, it burned quickly.

[882] He was merely symbolic.

[883] And he said, tonight, Michael Francis, who are born again into a new life, into Kosovoz, this thing of ours.

[884] Violate what you know about this life.

[885] Betray your brothers and you will die and burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands.

[886] Do you accept?

[887] Yes, I do.

[888] And that's how it started.

[889] That's the oath.

[890] Very fast, very simple, very serious.

[891] Were you scared when you walked into that room?

[892] I was exhilarated that night.

[893] I was like, wow, finally.

[894] You know, I'm going to have this even closer bond with my dad.

[895] I've worked for this now for two and a half years.

[896] I've worked for I was exhilarated that night.

[897] I mean, and so were the other five guys, everybody.

[898] Why, when you look back with the wisdom that you have now as to why you joined that life, I know your father was a catalyst in some respects, but I imagine it's probably a bit more complex than it just being about your father.

[899] What were your genuine motivations?

[900] You know, quite honestly, I didn't aspire to be a mom guy.

[901] I mean, even though I admired my dad, it's not the path that I wanted to take.

[902] It didn't say, I wish I could do that.

[903] You know, and it's kind of odd because a lot of the young people I speak to now, a lot of these gangbangers, I go into juvenile halls and prisons.

[904] And they say the same thing.

[905] Wow, you guys had all the money.

[906] You had all the power.

[907] You had the cars.

[908] You had the women.

[909] And it turned them on.

[910] And that's what wanted, they wanted to be that guy.

[911] I didn't have that feeling.

[912] Maybe because I grew up with it.

[913] Maybe because that was my dad.

[914] You know, we didn't grow up poor, weren't wealthy.

[915] But we didn't really, you know, want for anything.

[916] We had a roof over our head.

[917] We went on a vacation every once in a while.

[918] So we didn't struggle it financially in that regard.

[919] So, I mean, it's not something I aspired to be.

[920] It was strictly, strictly to help my dad.

[921] Really?

[922] Yeah, it really was.

[923] Then, of course, as I get into the process, well, now I want to complete it.

[924] I want to become that made guy.

[925] I'm working for it.

[926] You know, it's like anything I do.

[927] You know, I want to complete it.

[928] I want to succeed.

[929] So that became part of it.

[930] And then, you know, because watching my dad is one thing.

[931] going through the process, understanding what the life is about, being around the other guys that were mentoring me, now I started to really get an understanding of the life.

[932] Dare I say, you sound like you were maybe slightly different, in the sense of your intentions of being there were slightly different from those around you in that life.

[933] What were everybody else's intentions?

[934] What were their motivations?

[935] And I was wondering, as you were speaking about the different personality types, you must have encountered in that life.

[936] I've heard you say before, there are two types of people in the Mafia, people who enjoyed killing and people who were just following orders.

[937] Which camp were you in?

[938] Oh, definitely following orders.

[939] I mean, I was, listen, there was some, you know, I can mention his name because everybody knows it, it's not, but there's a guy by name Roy de Mayo.

[940] I don't know if you ever heard that night.

[941] Roy was, you know, it was, he was a serial killer, no question.

[942] But what I say about Roy, and I knew him, Roy would have been a serial killer if he wasn't in a mafia.

[943] The mafia didn't make him a serial killer.

[944] That's just who he was.

[945] I mean, he enjoyed it.

[946] You know, and there were guys like that.

[947] He enjoyed it.

[948] I think so.

[949] Had to.

[950] Because how could you do that?

[951] I mean, what did he do?

[952] A couple hundred murders.

[953] And if you, you know, he had a place called the Gemini Club.

[954] It was a club that he had.

[955] And they described the way.

[956] they would kill because some people became informants that were involved with him.

[957] And, I mean, killing people, chopping up bodies.

[958] I mean, it was gruesome, you know.

[959] I mean, you're a different kind of human being if you're doing stuff like that, you know.

[960] Have you, your experience in the Mafia must have taught you something about the nature of humans and what we're capable of, because we all walk around thinking that we're, quote, unquote, good and that we are just, we were born with this perfect sort of moral compass and that none of us are capable of doing violent things or morbid things or amoral things.

[961] But you must have a slightly different perspective on that.

[962] Yeah, not true at all.

[963] I think just the opposite.

[964] I think we all have something in us that, you know, if we're triggered in the right way, we can do damage.

[965] Let's put it that way.

[966] I've seen that my whole life.

[967] Sometimes for the right reasons and sometimes for the wrong reasons.

[968] Obviously, if you're in defense of your family, of your friend.

[969] I mean, you might do some horrible things to somebody that's trying to victimize them.

[970] But there's others that, you know, just do it because they can do it.

[971] And I've seen that.

[972] I've seen both.

[973] Do you think things like murder are part of human nature?

[974] Yes, absolutely.

[975] I do believe that.

[976] I mean, you know, and I want to be clear on this, be careful on this.

[977] murder is murder.

[978] Murder is murder.

[979] The reason you commit it is another thing.

[980] But listen, you're going to the military, you're killing people on the other side.

[981] Why are you doing it?

[982] Well, I'm defending my country, and I get it, and I understand that.

[983] And that's a noble thing.

[984] Supposedly, right?

[985] But you're still committing murders.

[986] You're still having in you.

[987] You could have been the nicest guy in the world.

[988] Okay?

[989] You could have been the most laid -back, soft person in the world.

[990] You go into the military, they're going to teach you to be a killer, and you're going to do it.

[991] So you have it in you, you know, it's a tough thing.

[992] But I think everybody has the capability of doing something, doing damage.

[993] Let's, let me use that word.

[994] How have you been affected by what you saw?

[995] Because I can imagine your eyes have seen some things that mine absolutely haven't.

[996] And it's impossible to think that one can just shake that off.

[997] You know, I've been blessed in a way that sometimes you might have.

[998] my wife gets upset with me, that I can compartmentalize things pretty well.

[999] And I think it's a result of being in that life.

[1000] And I think this is what triggered it for me, Steve.

[1001] I had a fellow, when my dad went to prison, he was a, they called him Marty the animal.

[1002] He's a real tough guy, right?

[1003] He was a Jewish guy.

[1004] But I loved him.

[1005] He was like a second dad for me. My father and him were very close.

[1006] When my dad went away, he kind of, again, took not only me, but my whole family, very close with his family.

[1007] He had younger kids.

[1008] His wife was wonderful.

[1009] And he got murdered.

[1010] I was young.

[1011] I was 17, 18 years old.

[1012] And he got murdered.

[1013] No, I'm sorry.

[1014] I'm sorry.

[1015] I'm sorry.

[1016] It was when my dad first went into prison.

[1017] So I was 19 or 20.

[1018] And I walked into the funeral parlor.

[1019] I'll never forget.

[1020] And his sister came up to me and hugged me. And she said, you need to come with me. you need to look at what these animals did to my brother.

[1021] I'll never forget the words.

[1022] The coffin was closed.

[1023] And she opened a coffin, and he was unrecognizable.

[1024] There's a guy I loved.

[1025] I didn't faint, but it got to me. It really got to me. I've never seen anything like that before, in reality, especially somebody I really cared for, really loved.

[1026] And it did have an impact on me. There's no question.

[1027] But somehow, I was able to, get beyond that as a young person.

[1028] I don't know what that says about me in that regard.

[1029] And I'm able to do that about certain things.

[1030] Even if it's wrong, this was wrong, but I can't sit on it.

[1031] I can't let it get to me. I can't, I got to overcome it.

[1032] And I think that was a defining moment in my life to be able to move that and then continue to move into the life.

[1033] Because I said, this is part of it.

[1034] of it.

[1035] Do you regret that she did that, that she showed you in?

[1036] Yeah, I didn't need to see that.

[1037] I didn't need to.

[1038] She did it out of love.

[1039] She didn't do it out of, because she loved me, and she was her sister, devastated.

[1040] And I think she felt close enough to me because she knew how I cared about Artie and how he cared about me. So she just, it was grief, no other reason, you know.

[1041] It was a sincere, sincere movement.

[1042] that she did.

[1043] But I didn't need to see that.

[1044] And you know what?

[1045] There's times when I have visions of that.

[1046] My wife, you know, I have a tendency in my sleep.

[1047] Things don't come out of me when I'm awake, but when I'm in my sleep, she says, you know, you had a fight last night.

[1048] Who was it with?

[1049] And it happens fairly often, you know, more than I think a normal person.

[1050] But I don't remember.

[1051] I wake up, hey, I'm fine.

[1052] You see him in your sleep?

[1053] I have.

[1054] Yeah, I have.

[1055] Again, that was like, boom, you know, and something just impacts you in a way, like, whoa.

[1056] Compartmentalizing sounds like a good short -term strategy to things, to grief, to traumatic events and things.

[1057] But I don't know if I believe one can truly compartmentalize something forever without it rearing its heads somewhere else.

[1058] I almost see it like kind of like whack -a -mole.

[1059] Like I might be able to shut it down in this part of my life, but it's probably going to emerge over here in some other way.

[1060] I agree with that.

[1061] I think when something is so severe, even at that moment, I think it could last and come out in different ways.

[1062] You know, I mean, another thing, I mean, there was a very dear friend of mine.

[1063] It was like a brother to me, and he ended up getting killed.

[1064] And that had an impact on me. because I honestly tried to save him and I couldn't.

[1065] Yeah, because he, without getting into the details, he did something that was total violation of our life.

[1066] And he lost his life as a result of it.

[1067] And I couldn't save him.

[1068] I tried, but I couldn't.

[1069] He was in the mafia?

[1070] Yeah.

[1071] So there was a sit -down, I'm presuming.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] It was decided that he wasn't going to live.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] Were you in a sit -down?

[1076] I was in a number of sit -downs in my life, you know.

[1077] Yeah, it was a tough one.

[1078] You know, one of the horrors of that life is, you know, you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into that room, you don't walk out again, and throughout the course of my life, I've seen that, obviously.

[1079] I've seen guys that, you know, we're here one day gone the next.

[1080] And it's one of the evil parts of that life.

[1081] There's no question.

[1082] And I saw guys that died for the wrong reasons.

[1083] You know, it's like anything else.

[1084] You know, in a corporate world, you have greed and you have backstabbing and all of that.

[1085] But you lose your job, you lose some money.

[1086] You move on.

[1087] And that life, the consequences are severe.

[1088] So I was thinking about my best friend.

[1089] And I was thinking if my best friend did something, which was disrespectful in some way, I don't know, he stole something, maybe.

[1090] He, something even more extreme.

[1091] He slept with my sister.

[1092] You know, I wouldn't want him to die.

[1093] No, you wouldn't want him to die.

[1094] But in the life you came from, he would die.

[1095] It's, uh, it's a, it's the most severe policy.

[1096] I'll tell you this.

[1097] I'll tell you how severe it is.

[1098] There's another guy, you know, and I'll have to mention his name.

[1099] It was two brothers that were made guys in that life and I was friendly with them both.

[1100] One of them happened to be in our family.

[1101] the other one was with another family.

[1102] But I drove him home to Brooklyn one day.

[1103] And he got out of the car and I said, I'll see.

[1104] He said, no, wait, wait, don't leave yet.

[1105] I said, okay, I waited.

[1106] So he opened the door of his house and he looked in and like he was looking at something.

[1107] I wasn't really paying attention.

[1108] But then I seen him close the door and come out.

[1109] And he got in the car and I said, what happened?

[1110] He said, well, nobody's home.

[1111] But that's your house.

[1112] What do you mean nobody's home?

[1113] Why doesn't somebody have to be home?

[1114] And he said, I can't go in my house.

[1115] I said, what do you mean?

[1116] Well, his father had been caught fooling around with somebody else's wife or daughter at the time.

[1117] And him and his brother were given the contract.

[1118] And he killed his father.

[1119] And he said, anytime I walk in the house, if I'm alone, the ghost of my father is in there and haunts me. So he said, I haven't been in my house alone in 20 -some -odd years.

[1120] He killed his own father.

[1121] Yeah.

[1122] Now, I want to, you know, I don't want to, how should I say this, I don't want to give the impression that that's what the life is all about every day and all the time.

[1123] It's not.

[1124] But there are extreme cases where these things happen.

[1125] And that's what makes it a bad life.

[1126] And I call it an evil life because families are destroyed as a result of this.

[1127] I don't know any family of any made member of that life that hasn't been devastated, including.

[1128] including my own.

[1129] Now, not my wife and kids.

[1130] I've been able to spare them of that, praise God, but my mother, 33 years without a husband.

[1131] When she passed away in 2012, her relationship with my dad ugly, because she blamed him for everything that went wrong.

[1132] Rightfully so.

[1133] He was gone.

[1134] Only 40 years my dad did on that 50.

[1135] So what went wrong?

[1136] My sister, 27 years old, dies of an overdose of drugs.

[1137] My brother, 25 years of drug addict.

[1138] Steve, you don't know what I had to do to save his life so many times.

[1139] You know, drug addict.

[1140] If he wasn't my brother and my father's son, he wouldn't have made it.

[1141] My youngest sister, 40 years old, she died young.

[1142] She was never mentally stable.

[1143] The whole family was devastated.

[1144] And my father ended up doing 40 years out of 50 in that prison.

[1145] He was out a few times on parole, but 40 years out of the 50.

[1146] His life destroyed, basically.

[1147] So any lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad life.

[1148] It's an evil life.

[1149] And I don't know any family of any member that hasn't met a similar fate in some way, shape, or form.

[1150] So, you know, I came to that conclusion.

[1151] I said, this is bad.

[1152] And what got me out of it, you know, I met a young girl, and I fell in love with, she was 20 years old.

[1153] My wife, we were married 39 years this week.

[1154] I said, am I going to do this to this girl and marry her?

[1155] I'm a major target.

[1156] I'm never going to get away with this long term.

[1157] I had huge bullseye on my back.

[1158] I went to trial five times.

[1159] I had seven indictments, arrested 18 times.

[1160] They were never going to let me go.

[1161] They had a 14 agency task force that was assigned to put me in jail forever.

[1162] It's all documented.

[1163] So I said, what am I doing?

[1164] I'm going to marry this girl.

[1165] And two years, I'll be in jail for the rest of my life.

[1166] So that's what started to give me, I got to get away from this.

[1167] Do you think you would have gotten away from it just with the well of love alone?

[1168] No. if it was, you know, I really thought about this myself so often, you know, I had an incident where my dad actually betrayed me and it was devastating to me. And it made me think, I said, if this life can separate father and son, what do I really have here?

[1169] What do we really have?

[1170] What are we doing here?

[1171] And I didn't meet my wife until two years after that.

[1172] But I don't, if that The fact of betrayal didn't happen from my dad.

[1173] I don't know if I would have ever left the life because the pull he had on me was very strong.

[1174] I don't know if I would have walked away.

[1175] But I think that had to happen to kind of separate me from him and really make me understand that this life, if it could separate us, what is it?

[1176] What was the betrayal?

[1177] I was called into a room one night.

[1178] It was over money.

[1179] There was an article that came out in a Long Island newspaper.

[1180] but I think it was a Long Island press out of circulation now that said I was becoming powerful enough to take over to stop my own family, break away from the Colombo, stop my own family.

[1181] No truth in it whatsoever.

[1182] Some reporter just made it up because I was doing well.

[1183] I had a jet plane, helicopter, big crew.

[1184] I was in the media.

[1185] What was your net worth and how old were you?

[1186] I was, well, when I walked away from that life, I was 34.

[1187] I was around 30 at that point, 2930.

[1188] Do you know what your net worth was?

[1189] I have no idea because I had a lot of cash.

[1190] It was in the millions, for sure.

[1191] It was a lot of money.

[1192] And then it was saying that I had defrauded the government at $2 billion.

[1193] It wasn't $2 billion.

[1194] It was a lot of money.

[1195] But, you know, they always exaggerate.

[1196] So now guys on the street are starting to get a little $2 billion.

[1197] It's going family.

[1198] I had the Russians.

[1199] I had organized the Russians with me. We had a very strong crew.

[1200] And a lot of guys around me. So I think they walked me into that room one night.

[1201] And my father was in there before me. And, I mean, this story can take an hour, so I don't want to hold you up with it.

[1202] But the bottom line is I talked my sense into them and said, basically, I'm bringing you all this money and I'm being put on the spot for this.

[1203] I said, I'm taking all the risk.

[1204] Nobody else is in jeopardy here.

[1205] These are my guys.

[1206] Nobody knows who you are.

[1207] I purposely kept my guys away from them so that if my thing ever blew up, we wouldn't be hurting any of the guys in the family.

[1208] And I said, and now I'm being questioned.

[1209] I said, they write an article about me all of a sudden is true.

[1210] They write about everybody else that's false.

[1211] So I started to get angry with the boss.

[1212] You don't do that.

[1213] You know the, you never outshine the master.

[1214] You know that principle.

[1215] And that life for sure.

[1216] So I calm myself down.

[1217] I said, okay, I'm walking out of here.

[1218] Everything's going to be all right.

[1219] And then we finished up and, you know, glass of wine, everything's great, you know, the usual thing.

[1220] And then it wasn't until I got in the car with the guy that drove me there, who I knew my whole life.

[1221] He was a captain along with me. And I got in a car and I got very upset with him.

[1222] I said, you knew, you didn't tell me what was happening here tonight.

[1223] I were walking into a trap.

[1224] And you don't prepare me. You don't see anything to me. You know what he said, Steve?

[1225] He looked at me and he said, if it was the other way around, would you have told me?

[1226] I said, he was a smart guy.

[1227] And I said, no. I said, Michael, you know to life as well as anybody.

[1228] You grew up around the best.

[1229] I said, okay.

[1230] I go to get out of the car, and he grabs my hand, my arm.

[1231] And he says, I'm going to tell you something.

[1232] You're not going to want to hear this, but it's the truth.

[1233] I am your friend.

[1234] He said, we live by a certain code, but I am your friend.

[1235] I said, what?

[1236] Your father was in there before you tonight.

[1237] He didn't help you one bit.

[1238] He hurt you in there tonight.

[1239] And I was like, devastated.

[1240] What do you mean?

[1241] And I said it to myself.

[1242] I didn't ask him.

[1243] I couldn't even answer him.

[1244] I got out of car and was walking towards my car, and I started to think.

[1245] Knowing my father so well, I said, I know what he did.

[1246] Hey, my son is stealing.

[1247] He does everything.

[1248] I'm on parole.

[1249] I don't know what he's doing.

[1250] I have no idea.

[1251] He just kind of took the high road and left me on my own instead of standing up for me because we were both captains at that point.

[1252] My dad could have forcefully said, how dare you?

[1253] My son would never rob me. He could have really came out, but he didn't.

[1254] I was really on my own.

[1255] And I could have been dangerous.

[1256] You know, again, the traps that they set up for you during that time, because believe me, they would have loved to take over my business and just, you know, and you've got to watch for that.

[1257] So the traps that were set up, you know, fortunately I was able to navigate him.

[1258] But it really was devastating because I said, how could that happen?

[1259] You were running multiple businesses at that point, not just the fuel business?

[1260] No, I had, well, you know, I had legitimate business.

[1261] I had two automobile agencies.

[1262] I had a Mazda dealership, very successful.

[1263] I had a Chevrolet dealership, successful.

[1264] I had a leasing company.

[1265] I had a film production company at that time.

[1266] I was making movies.

[1267] I made about 30 films during that time.

[1268] All horror exploitation films, they were big at that point.

[1269] I had a number of restaurants that I was involved in.

[1270] I had a video shop and video, you know, cassettes and everything were big.

[1271] didn't compete with Blockbuster, but we had a good neighborhood spot, you know.

[1272] So I had a lot of things going on.

[1273] I had a lot of money on the street.

[1274] I was lending money out to a lot of my own guys.

[1275] I'd lend it to them.

[1276] They, in turn, would lend it to somebody else.

[1277] You know, so, I mean, I had a lot going on.

[1278] And did you have to pay a tax to the Mafia for earning money?

[1279] Did you have to then pay the Mafia some of that money?

[1280] If it was illegitimate, yes.

[1281] Okay, so if it's legal, no. If it's legal, no. Unless they contributed in some way, and they didn't.

[1282] My dealerships were mine.

[1283] I didn't owe them anything.

[1284] You know, my film company was mine.

[1285] But anything I had on the street, yes, you have to pay up.

[1286] How did being part of the Mafia help you in business?

[1287] Could you just, you told me the gas station story.

[1288] I imagine you weren't strong arming your way all the time into business.

[1289] Well, didn't have to strong arm, you know.

[1290] Listen, the Mazda agency that I got, people knew who I was.

[1291] You know, I was going broke.

[1292] I didn't have any money.

[1293] I was on trial a couple.

[1294] I was broke.

[1295] But I told the guy, I said, listen, I understand.

[1296] understand the business.

[1297] I'm very aggressive.

[1298] Give me the place.

[1299] You know who my father is, you know.

[1300] Ah, you got it.

[1301] I'm going broke.

[1302] So he gave me the dealership, basically.

[1303] And then through a series of things, I was able to get floor planning.

[1304] I mean, it was a whole stuff.

[1305] I worked hard, Steve.

[1306] I was seven -day -a -week working guy, worked hard.

[1307] I kind of understood certain things like, you know, right away.

[1308] There was a guy in general electric credit, you know.

[1309] I went to him.

[1310] I knew he kind of was fascinated with the life.

[1311] And I said to him, look, I need a floor plan for my cars.

[1312] I don't have any money.

[1313] I said, I need a couple hundred thousand dollars.

[1314] I got to be able to buy cars from Mazda.

[1315] I said, I'll give you so much your car.

[1316] I said, you floor plan me. I'll play it straight with you.

[1317] Every car I sell, I'll give you a couple hundred bucks.

[1318] He was in troll.

[1319] He floor planned me. That's how I got the floor plan.

[1320] What's the floor plan?

[1321] Floor plan is financing to buy the cars from the manufacturer so you can put them on your yacht.

[1322] They don't give you credit.

[1323] You've got buy him.

[1324] When does it all come crashing down for you?

[1325] Well, came crashing down really.

[1326] Like, I had went to trial five times and is either dismissed or acquitted in every case.

[1327] I beat him five times.

[1328] But it came crashing down in the gasoline tax case, my partner, who he and I developed this scheme together.

[1329] He was really the brains of it.

[1330] I was the polish.

[1331] I knew how to do certain things that he couldn't do.

[1332] But he came up with the scheme.

[1333] I brought the accountant in.

[1334] I brought a certain strategy in.

[1335] I brought people to the table and I made sure nobody messed up and we got the right money.

[1336] I was the expansion part of the business, you know.

[1337] And he became an informant.

[1338] He got in trouble on an unrelated case.

[1339] And they told him, listen, you're going to jail forever unless you give us Michael.

[1340] And that's when it started to come down on me. I took a plea to the gasoline case, even though he had testified against me in a prior case, and I was acquitted.

[1341] We destroyed him on the stand.

[1342] He wasn't a good witness.

[1343] But part of my strategy, I'll take a plea.

[1344] I'll marry, I knew my wife at that point.

[1345] I'm going to marry this girl.

[1346] I'll get a lower sentence by taking a plea.

[1347] I'll give the government back some money.

[1348] I gave up my plane, my helicoptered a whole bit.

[1349] Take it forfeitures.

[1350] I had five million in forfeitures and 15 million in restitution to pay them.

[1351] So it was part of my strategy to take a plea, do some time, give them some money, move out to the West Coast to marry this girl and then try to get out of life.

[1352] It's part of my strategy, really.

[1353] How'd you feel about him?

[1354] You know, I'm going to tell you, God's honest truth.

[1355] He was six foot four, almost six, five, 450 pounds.

[1356] Big guy.

[1357] He wasn't a sloppy fat.

[1358] He was a big guy, right?

[1359] We were together seven, eight years, never had an argument.

[1360] His kids called me Uncle Michael.

[1361] I was married before for a short time and my young kids called him Uncle Larry.

[1362] We made millions together.

[1363] But I knew he was weak.

[1364] I knew if he ever got in trouble.

[1365] And look, when he got in trouble, they said to me, we'll take care of him for you.

[1366] And I said, listen, I'm going to fight him.

[1367] His wife, I know his family.

[1368] I can't do it.

[1369] I said, just, I'll fight him in court.

[1370] They were upset with me for making that decision.

[1371] And that was my decision.

[1372] I said, I'll fight him in court.

[1373] And that's what happened.

[1374] How'd you feel about him?

[1375] It's almost like I couldn't even be really upset with him because we got along so well.

[1376] We made so much money.

[1377] I just knew he was weak.

[1378] So, you know, I learned one thing, Steve.

[1379] I try not to put the blame on anybody else.

[1380] Anything that goes wrong, I take responsibility for personally.

[1381] I should have known better.

[1382] Even if some guy does me wrong, why didn't I figure that out?

[1383] Why didn't I know this?

[1384] I always try to take responsibility so I don't make the same mistake again.

[1385] It's worked for me my whole life.

[1386] When you start playing a blame game and start, all it does, it's a sign of weakness in my view.

[1387] And, you know, if you accept responsibility for everything, even when it really isn't your fault, and you say, I shouldn't own better.

[1388] Come on.

[1389] How did I do this?

[1390] Why do I let this guy get to take advantage of me like this?

[1391] You know, until right now, I have a situation now.

[1392] I'm saying the same thing.

[1393] My fault, you know, what am I going to do?

[1394] Get mad?

[1395] You know?

[1396] So, you know, it's just the way I operate.

[1397] So was I really upset with him?

[1398] Like, you know, no. When you say you knew he was weak, how are you defining weakness and strength?

[1399] I knew if he got in trouble, he wouldn't stand up.

[1400] He would cooperate.

[1401] He didn't want to go to prison.

[1402] He wasn't a guy that was going to do jail time.

[1403] I knew that.

[1404] And my other guy.

[1405] You know, one of the things is my boss always wanted to meet him.

[1406] And I said, I'm not going to make, and I know why they wanted to meet him, you know, in case of anything, they would take him away from me, right?

[1407] I said, I'm not going to make you meet him because he's weak.

[1408] If we ever get, he's going to give up everybody.

[1409] So why would I make him meet you?

[1410] And then you're going to blame me for introducing him to you strategy, right?

[1411] They couldn't say no to that.

[1412] They couldn't say no. And I said it in front of people.

[1413] I said, I'm telling you this guy is not going to stand up.

[1414] When I have a problem, he's my problem, I'll take care of it my way.

[1415] but I'm not going to introduce him to people that he can put in trouble, no way.

[1416] And they couldn't argue with that as part of my strategy.

[1417] So when he snitched effectively, did they not want to take care of him?

[1418] Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[1419] They said, we'll handle it for you.

[1420] You know, turn us, you know, let us know, they wanted him out of the picture.

[1421] So they didn't want this to end because they figured if he's gone, I can still keep this going.

[1422] How easy was that for them to order someone's murder?

[1423] Because it sounds so a matter of fact, like, I will take care of this.

[1424] The boss had total, how hard was it for the boss to order a murder and then have it executed?

[1425] Yeah.

[1426] It wasn't hard at all.

[1427] It was not hard at all.

[1428] Especially with somebody within our life, it wasn't hard, unfortunately.

[1429] So the boss could you say take care of him and then someone would go and do it?

[1430] Absolutely.

[1431] No questions asked.

[1432] Boss at that point say, he's going to go.

[1433] They need to sign it to somebody, and then it's up to them.

[1434] How they handle it.

[1435] What if they didn't handle it?

[1436] They'd be in trouble.

[1437] They've got to handle it.

[1438] Was there ever an instance you can recall where someone didn't handle it?

[1439] Well, it could have been an aborted attempt.

[1440] And if it was a legitimately aborted attempt, you're normally not going to be held responsible for that.

[1441] But if you're given a job, you better get it done.

[1442] Let's put it that way.

[1443] Or you're going to be responsible.

[1444] In some ways, yes, you could be, especially if that person goes on to do something hurtful to everybody else.

[1445] Eventually, you do get sent to prison.

[1446] You take a plea deal.

[1447] What's your plea deal?

[1448] I pled to, it was a racketeering case.

[1449] The underlying act was tax fraud.

[1450] And two counts that I pled guilty to, racketeering, conspiracy, something.

[1451] And 10 -year prison sentence, $14 .7 million of restitution, $5 million of forfeitures.

[1452] Don't leave you with any money?

[1453] Well, yes, because in negotiating the plea, I was able to keep certain things and not.

[1454] I said, listen, if I'm going to take a plea, my wife's not going to go to work.

[1455] I'm going to make sure my wife, my kid, they're all okay.

[1456] So I'm going to keep some of the money.

[1457] You know, so when you're negotiating a plea, my lawyer, he was, able to at least give me enough.

[1458] My wife never had to go to work when I was in jail.

[1459] I was wondering this because a lot of the things you described sound like they were done in cash.

[1460] A lot of cash, no question.

[1461] But there was a lot of wire transfers and money sent in different places.

[1462] We had a lot.

[1463] But not everybody paid.

[1464] And you were selling to legitimate gas station owners, you know, they didn't pay you in cash all the time.

[1465] And especially when you're selling big volume, there was a lot of wire transfers, a lot of wire activity.

[1466] What was the most cash you ever saw in person.

[1467] Oh, gosh.

[1468] I think the most I've ever seen is like 10K.

[1469] 10K?

[1470] Well, I've just never seen a lot of cash.

[1471] In my lifetime, I don't even have a wallet.

[1472] You don't deal with cash.

[1473] I just have my phone, so.

[1474] You know, probably 40, 50 million around there.

[1475] In cash?

[1476] In cash, yeah.

[1477] Yeah.

[1478] You've seen 40 or 50 million in cash?

[1479] When was that?

[1480] Back in the 80s, early 80s.

[1481] Was it just in a room or something?

[1482] Yeah, it was in a room.

[1483] Yeah.

[1484] How big does a room have to be to have 14?

[1485] That'd be pretty big because gas station money is small bills.

[1486] Okay, yeah.

[1487] I mean, listen, it got to a point with the cash where I used to come home and I used to get the fives and ones and I used to give them to my wife.

[1488] So I'd give this to your brothers and sisters because I have no room for them.

[1489] There's no place to put them.

[1490] And I'd give her a couple grand and say, yeah, just give it out.

[1491] We wouldn't keep the 20s and, you know, the tens.

[1492] And it was, you know, washing the money was an issue.

[1493] I mean, once my wife went to the bank and I gave her, I don't know, thousands of dollars to deposit.

[1494] And the banker said, why does your bunny always smell like gas?

[1495] So my wife said, I'm not going to the bank anymore for you.

[1496] And she didn't know I was doing anything wrong.

[1497] I never discussed it with her and never told her anything.

[1498] I said, hey, I'm in this business.

[1499] I'm a wholesaler.

[1500] We have a lot of cash.

[1501] You know, you go to a gas and they pay with cash.

[1502] And I have as many credit cards as I have now.

[1503] So it came to a point I said, all right, I'll fix it.

[1504] And I bought a refrigerator, and I put baking soda in the refrigerator with the cash, and that took the smell out.

[1505] And she said, I never seen anything like that before.

[1506] I said, well, you know, gas, nobody wants to smell gas, you know.

[1507] But I made everything legitimate out of it.

[1508] I never told her a thing that was going on, never.

[1509] Did you not, I always think when I read stories like this, that if I was in that moment, I would live in a permanent state of fear that I might go to jail.

[1510] So I'd take, I don't know, a couple of million and bury it somewhere?

[1511] You're nodding.

[1512] Is that what you did?

[1513] Well, listen, I, you know, I was resourceful in that regard.

[1514] But, you know, your plans don't always work out the way you want them to.

[1515] I'll tell you one thing that really hurt me bad.

[1516] I hired a lawyer that had just come out of the government, the prosecution's office.

[1517] He was, as a matter of fact, he was almost on one of my cases, but he wasn't.

[1518] So there was no conflict.

[1519] But he just came out of the Eastern District of New York, which is Brooklyn, where my cases were, most of them.

[1520] And so I hired him.

[1521] And I said, John, I need one thing from you.

[1522] I want to know when I'm going to be arrested or locked up or indicted on this gasoline case because this was after my partner became a snitch.

[1523] And he said, I'll never forget.

[1524] He said, don't worry about it.

[1525] June of 86, that's when it's going to happen.

[1526] You got time, right?

[1527] And this was like the middle of 85.

[1528] I said, great.

[1529] I got married in July of 85, right?

[1530] I said, great, I got time.

[1531] I had my own plane.

[1532] I was moving things around.

[1533] But I was figuring I had seven, eight, nine months.

[1534] Well, I got indicted in December of that year and no bail.

[1535] So they kind of derailed a lot of my plan and strategy, because I got locked up six months earlier than I thought.

[1536] And so that was hurtful.

[1537] I can tell you that.

[1538] What was your plan?

[1539] I was moving a lot of money around, right honestly.

[1540] Moving a lot of money around at different places and...

[1541] Physical money or...

[1542] Yeah.

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] And money that I had put in certain places, I was taking it out, and I was putting it so I said, I never have to worry about anything again.

[1545] I'm going to have to sit on this cash because another thing happened.

[1546] My partner and I had a bank in Austria, and we were taking the federal tax money, nine cents, and we were just putting in that banking.

[1547] We opened up a bank account.

[1548] He had half the number.

[1549] It was a number to count.

[1550] He had half the number.

[1551] I had half the number.

[1552] Neither one of us knew the other half, right?

[1553] We just did it.

[1554] I was came up dad.

[1555] I said, let's make sure we have no temptation.

[1556] It was more for him than for me, right?

[1557] And we had about $33 million in that account.

[1558] When he became a snitch, I got a hold of his son, Larry Jr. His name was Larry.

[1559] And I said, tell your father, I'll fight him in court.

[1560] Don't give up the money.

[1561] It's our money.

[1562] It's for you, your mother.

[1563] Don't give up the money.

[1564] Whatever happens.

[1565] We'll worry about the court situation.

[1566] Well, he testifies against me. He becomes an informant, goes to hope he never gives up the money, never gives up the account.

[1567] He testifies against me in a Giuliani case, I get acquitted.

[1568] Jury didn't believe him, right?

[1569] We destroyed him on the stand.

[1570] So now the government in the Eastern District, the other side in Brooklyn, said, you're worthless.

[1571] You couldn't get a conviction on Francis, you're worthless.

[1572] We're throwing you out of the program.

[1573] You're done.

[1574] He gets scared.

[1575] He says, wait a second.

[1576] You know, there's more.

[1577] It gives them half of the number.

[1578] The FBI goes to Austria, true story, goes to Austria and says, it's mafia money, we have half the account number.

[1579] We want it.

[1580] Austria says, I don't care what money it is.

[1581] You come with the full account number, you're not getting anything.

[1582] Tells the FBI, they didn't care.

[1583] They wouldn't give it up.

[1584] Austria, not Switzerland, Austria, right?

[1585] So now, when I get indicted and then negotiating the plea.

[1586] Originally, they want to give me $100 million fine and 25 years in prison.

[1587] That was where we were negotiating.

[1588] So my lawyer comes to me and says, you're never going to get the money.

[1589] He's got the, it's done.

[1590] It's over, it's finished.

[1591] He says, give me the account number.

[1592] It'll help me negotiate the plea down.

[1593] I give it to him.

[1594] They negotiate the plea from 25 years and 100 million down to 10 years and 15 million with a 5 million forfeiture clause, right?

[1595] He did.

[1596] It was very helpful in that regard.

[1597] But we lost all that money.

[1598] It was it.

[1599] It was meaningful.

[1600] It wasn't everything, but it was meaningful.

[1601] And when he cooperated, they gave him back $2 .5 million out of that $33 million.

[1602] So he profited a little bit out of it, at least.

[1603] Did you have anything buried in the ground?

[1604] Yes.

[1605] Physically buried in the ground?

[1606] In a safe, yes.

[1607] In a safe in the ground.

[1608] Safs, I would say.

[1609] Yes.

[1610] Saves in the ground.

[1611] Yes.

[1612] up until you were released?

[1613] They were there.

[1614] Let's put it down.

[1615] No, because it's what I think anyone with a brain would do, but you just, if you don't know the timing of your, well, even if you didn't, I think if I was in that life, I'd live assuming that at some point I was probably going to have to do some time for something.

[1616] So I'd bury it all over the place.

[1617] I will tell you this.

[1618] They believe that I have a lot of money there someplace to the point where they hired an investigator who wrote a book about it just to go and investigate and search and this guy went around the world to different accounts that he thought I might have had money in he wrote a book about it they couldn't identify they couldn't find it but until today I get plagued with that they say we know you got it 100 % we know you got it we just wonder when you're going to go get it I don't I say I don't respond to silly stuff like that you know do you think you're being followed and watched no I mean I think let's put it this way.

[1619] At any moment, you can get in their crosshairs again, and who knows.

[1620] But I don't think they're worried or concerned about me at this moment.

[1621] It's not to say that that could not be a concern of theirs again.

[1622] But I don't worry about that.

[1623] But you were just saying there that you said they are just waiting for me to go and get it.

[1624] They think they're just waiting for you to go and get it.

[1625] Yeah, retired agents have told me that.

[1626] Agents, okay.

[1627] So not the Mafia agents.

[1628] Yeah.

[1629] Well, they absolutely think I do.

[1630] There's no question about that I know.

[1631] Yeah, I've been a, there's guys that have told me that, you know.

[1632] Told you what?

[1633] We know you have it.

[1634] When are you going to go get it, you know.

[1635] When they say go get it, do they mean New York?

[1636] No, you know, wherever the money is buried or wherever it is, you know, when is it going to appear?

[1637] I hear that.

[1638] I've heard that consistently over the years.

[1639] Is it buried?

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[1647] You went to prison, though.

[1648] You're in solitary confinement for a while while you're in prison.

[1649] I can't imagine.

[1650] I can't imagine.

[1651] One of my recurring nightmares is going to prison.

[1652] I think it's just like my deepest, darkest fear.

[1653] Yeah, it is.

[1654] Specifically going to prison for something I didn't do is one of my recurring nightmares that will happen every couple of months.

[1655] That's just the worst feeling in the world.

[1656] That is a nightmare.

[1657] I mean, to go for something you didn't do, for sure.

[1658] Yeah, prison is, listen, it's like anything else.

[1659] You're going to know how to navigate the system as best you can.

[1660] And, you know, my father taught me again.

[1661] He said, Mike, I'm going to tell you three things that are going to help you when you go to prison because you're going to go one day.

[1662] He said three words that are going to go a long way.

[1663] Please, thank you, excuse me. And he said, the reason for that, he said, all these guys in prison that never got respect on the street, they want it all in there.

[1664] They want to show their people, you know, that they're tough guys or whatever.

[1665] You bunk into somebody, excuse me. You want to cut somebody on the line, go to eat, whatever?

[1666] I said, do you mind, you know, excuse me, please, if I can come in front of you, don't ever just get in front of them, you know?

[1667] And somebody hands you, hey, thank you, thank you very much.

[1668] Be cordial, you know, and it really helped because I saw guys try to throw their weight around.

[1669] John Gotti tried to throw his weight around.

[1670] Don't work in there.

[1671] Guys are doing life in prison.

[1672] They don't care who you are.

[1673] What did they got to lose, you know?

[1674] But I never had a problem.

[1675] Never had a problem in prison.

[1676] I treated people that way.

[1677] And, yeah, I did spend 29 months and seven days in solitary.

[1678] And honestly, not easy.

[1679] That was rough.

[1680] I saw a lot of guys that not do well.

[1681] And I don't demean them for it.

[1682] You know, lights went out sometimes.

[1683] You heard a lot of things.

[1684] I've seen a lot of things in there.

[1685] Guys couldn't deal with it.

[1686] extended times.

[1687] It's rough.

[1688] I'm dead set against it for young people.

[1689] I think it's a form of torture really, really hurt them emotionally.

[1690] And I'm against it, you know, unless somebody's such a danger to themselves or a danger to others, you know, I'm dead set against it.

[1691] But I got through it.

[1692] Why were you sent to solitary?

[1693] They were upset with me. You know, when I wouldn't cooperate to the level that they wanted me to, especially in one big case that they tried to get me to take to stand against a friend of mine and I refused.

[1694] And within a few days, I was back on a parole violation.

[1695] They locked me up and sent me right to the hole.

[1696] And I was in solitary the whole time getting me, just getting even with me. 29 months and seven days?

[1697] In seven days, yeah.

[1698] In a row or?

[1699] Yes, it was, I did 11 months in one place and then they moved me. I took about two days and then put me in another place and I finished it up.

[1700] When you say that you had grown men in their breaking, what do you mean?

[1701] You know, banging heads against the barns and just some other disgusting things you don't want to hear.

[1702] I mean, you know, damaging themselves, you know, hurting themselves just to get out of the hole.

[1703] You know, I'd see guys that did things to themselves to get out of the hole in jail and get sent to the prison so they didn't have to stay in that environment anymore.

[1704] It was just bad.

[1705] That's nightmare stuff.

[1706] It really is.

[1707] You're quite uncomfortable talking about it, aren't you?

[1708] Yeah, because, you know, it's kind of demeaning to, and I'm not trying to come off that way.

[1709] I'm not saying, well, I was a tough guy.

[1710] I was able to handle it.

[1711] I was, by the grace of God, I was able to handle it.

[1712] I had my days and my nights where, you know, you're saying, God, it's one long day.

[1713] It never ends, you know.

[1714] And, I mean, I lost a lot of weight in there.

[1715] I was down to him.

[1716] I'm like 190 something now.

[1717] I was 166 when I got out of there because I wouldn't eat.

[1718] You know, the food that they gave us, I got tomming poisoning a couple of times.

[1719] I said, hey, give me cereal, give me bananas, and give me cup of soup.

[1720] That's all I want to eat.

[1721] I don't want to eat anything else.

[1722] And so I lived on that for quite some time.

[1723] And, you know, I don't want to make it sound that, I mean, it wasn't, you know, some of these places where, you know, you don't have a toilet or anything else.

[1724] I mean, I'm sure there's places around the world that are a lot worse, could be.

[1725] But it's just desolitary.

[1726] It wasn't so much the conditions.

[1727] You know what I mean?

[1728] We had a sink.

[1729] We had a toilet.

[1730] You had your bed with a little mattress.

[1731] So that was, it was just being solitary.

[1732] That's hard.

[1733] Did you find yourself losing your own mind in there and whatever that might mean?

[1734] No. No, Steve, honestly.

[1735] And I was pretty, I think I have a fairly strong constitution as something in me. And that's, that's God -given.

[1736] You know, I can't say, I don't know how.

[1737] Do you acquire something like that or it's just who you are?

[1738] I don't know.

[1739] But I was able to deal with it.

[1740] I mean, I had my bad nights in there, you know, and you just, fortunately, I had a Sony Walkman.

[1741] Music was, you have no idea.

[1742] music was so soothing.

[1743] I remember one Christmas Eve, I had just gotten off the phone with my wife, and it was devastating.

[1744] The whole family was there, and it was just, and I just put my walkman on, and it just lifted me out of there for a minute.

[1745] Just the music, you forget stuff.

[1746] You know, and, you know, I got into my Bible during that time, and I was listening to a pastor that I had not known.

[1747] I never met him.

[1748] His name was Greg Lorry, his Harvest Crusade, huge pastor here now, a very dear friend of mine now.

[1749] but his words were so uplifting.

[1750] I look forward to listening to him every morning.

[1751] He had a morning radio shows.

[1752] And so things like that meant a lot.

[1753] And then getting to a phone.

[1754] Everything is about the phone and having, you know, contact with your family.

[1755] So the thing that worried me, when my dad went away at that time, he got one three -minute phone call a month and one visit a month, One of eight -hour visit.

[1756] That was it.

[1757] So he lost touch with the family.

[1758] And him and my mother drifted apart.

[1759] My sister hardly knew him.

[1760] You just can't.

[1761] If you're not in touch with people, it just naturally happens.

[1762] So when I went away, my fear was that was going to happen to me and my wife.

[1763] So I did all I wanted.

[1764] I told it, I told me you, you want to lock me up?

[1765] Lock me up.

[1766] Just give me my phone calls and give me my visits.

[1767] I don't care what you do.

[1768] I'll take everything else.

[1769] But don't take my phone call, don't take my visit.

[1770] I'm not going to do anything that will cause you to do that.

[1771] So don't do it.

[1772] That's all I care about because I wanted to maintain a relationship with my wife.

[1773] And she stuck by you?

[1774] She did.

[1775] She did.

[1776] Eight years that I did, she stuck by me. And she was young.

[1777] She had a great mom, good Christian mom who held her up.

[1778] Our church at that time, Westwood Hills Christian Church, they rallied around my wife and me and my kids.

[1779] We had little babies back then.

[1780] And she stood up.

[1781] When I went to, I did five years.

[1782] I was home for 13 months.

[1783] Very difficult 13 months.

[1784] It was to have a contract on my life.

[1785] People wanted to kill me. And government was all over me to become a witness.

[1786] And I had a very tough time.

[1787] I violated my parole.

[1788] And when I went in, the feds told her, you're never going to see your husband free again.

[1789] We're indicted him on another case.

[1790] We violated his parole.

[1791] He's done.

[1792] He may as well pack it up.

[1793] And she had a breakdown on me at that point.

[1794] She probably couldn't see me for about six or seven weeks.

[1795] She didn't come to visit.

[1796] Can you imagine what life would have been like in solitary if she had decided that it was all too much for her?

[1797] I would have been bitter and resentful.

[1798] I don't think I would have come out of there the same.

[1799] I really don't.

[1800] Because she meant that much to me. It still does.

[1801] because I did everything for her, basically.

[1802] You know, I mean, she was the reason why I left that life.

[1803] Even though I knew it was a bad life, I wouldn't have left.

[1804] I was so indoctrinated.

[1805] Steve, when I walked into that room that night, I thought I was going to die.

[1806] And yet I walked into the room.

[1807] Wow, what a hero.

[1808] It wasn't heroic.

[1809] It was robotic.

[1810] I was so much a part of that life.

[1811] I had seen so much.

[1812] I said, well, it's my turn.

[1813] It's my turn.

[1814] It wasn't heroic.

[1815] scared out of my mind.

[1816] My knees were weak.

[1817] My heart was thumping out of my chest.

[1818] You know, and I still didn't want them to realize that I was that scared, but I was really scared.

[1819] Which room?

[1820] The room of your father?

[1821] The night they walked me, I told you, they walked me into that room and I didn't know if I was going to, you know, that's one of the horrors of that life.

[1822] The night my dad betrayed me. Your dad, you walked into that room that night with the bosses there and a lot of other people there and your dad there.

[1823] He wasn't there.

[1824] He had left already.

[1825] He had left already.

[1826] Yes.

[1827] They talked to us.

[1828] separately.

[1829] And when they had a conversation with him, had they told him that there was going to be a contract on you?

[1830] They didn't tell him that, but they were fishing to find out if there was a reason for it to happen.

[1831] In other words, if I believe, now this is my perception of that night, there was two reasons they walked me in, one of two.

[1832] Number one, trying to scare me to let me know you may be making all this money you may have this big crew that article came out in the paper but we're the boss you try to make a move you're going to die that's what I think that was either that or they really believed I was doing something wrong and they were going to try to take over the business now again remember one of the safeguards I never let him meet that guy and I never lit them my crew was my crew I didn't bring them around they were my guys and when we fell nobody no maid guy fell with us it was only my crew so I protected them in that way but but in another way I was safeguarding my business so were they going to look for an excuse that night to take me out very possibly and you think your dad might have been aware of that yes in a way yes because and again I've struggled with this too okay dad you betrayed me that night you threw me under the bus.

[1833] He didn't say, well, my son did this wrong.

[1834] My son did that.

[1835] He didn't do that.

[1836] He just said, I don't know.

[1837] I can't tell you.

[1838] I don't know.

[1839] And that was damaging.

[1840] He didn't stand up for me. How'd you know he didn't?

[1841] Jimmy told me. And I approached my father two years later.

[1842] He denied it.

[1843] I said, Dad, I know you did it.

[1844] It was confirmed.

[1845] I know what you did.

[1846] I know what you did.

[1847] But it's okay.

[1848] I love you.

[1849] It's all right.

[1850] I get it.

[1851] I understand the life.

[1852] I get it.

[1853] What did Jimmy tell you?

[1854] Tell me your father threw you under the bus.

[1855] bus.

[1856] He didn't help you one bit.

[1857] It's his exact words.

[1858] He didn't help you one bit.

[1859] He hurt you in there tonight.

[1860] And, you know, I was devastating.

[1861] Have you forgiven him for that?

[1862] Absolutely forgave him.

[1863] You know, something happens to you in that life, you know?

[1864] It's like, which right is wrong, which wrong is right.

[1865] You justify certain things, but I understood because that night, I mean, what kind of insanity to walk into a room when you think you're going to get killed or you think you might get that's your perception whether it's real or not that's your perception okay people say why don't you cut and run robotic okay i was so consumed by the life so this was me okay i'm going to die tonight scared of course i was scared no i'm not ashamed of it not at all i mean i know that door opened i almost fainted probably i don't know because i know it had up, you know, I walk in, it would have been over quick.

[1866] So when that door was going to open, I almost fainted.

[1867] But I can tell you this, what I believe now as a person of faith, I strongly believe this, that the way my life has turned out now, two things, that bond between my dad and me had to be broken.

[1868] It had to be broken.

[1869] And I had to realize in my life that I could face death if I had to.

[1870] Because when I walked away from that life, I didn't know I was going to walk away.

[1871] But when I walked away from that life, you know, contract on my life, my boss was very upset with me. He took it very personal.

[1872] He was a tough guy.

[1873] He was an old time, real tough guy.

[1874] And he took it very personal.

[1875] You know, walk away.

[1876] You don't walk away from this life.

[1877] We're not allowed to do that.

[1878] My dad disowned me for a number of years until we patched it up.

[1879] When they realized I wasn't going to be testifying against everybody because they thought I was, okay, this is what he's going to do.

[1880] I wasn't interested in that.

[1881] They thought I was going to go into the witness protection program and start hurting guys left and right.

[1882] That's not what I was going to do.

[1883] Never would have done that.

[1884] Not in a chance.

[1885] But they didn't know because when guys walk away, that's what they do.

[1886] Do you think your dad loved you?

[1887] I know he loved me. No question.

[1888] I tell you what the problem with my dad was.

[1889] His legend in that life meant everything to him.

[1890] I just can't square the fact that he would allow you talk into that room and not defend you with the risk of you dying and at the same time he loves you.

[1891] I like to think that maybe he didn't perceive it that way.

[1892] There was some other things playing.

[1893] You know, this is like, it was like it's Shakespearean in a way.

[1894] My mother who I loved, very difficult woman, I can tell you this.

[1895] She had her issues for whatever reason, but, you know, I think my mother liked to be my father's wife for a time.

[1896] I mean, she got a lot of attention, right?

[1897] When I became prominent in that life, a lot of the tension was not on her.

[1898] And I think she said some things to my dad, you know, that kind of maybe got in his head a little bit about me. Maybe I hate to say this, it doesn't sound right now.

[1899] I don't want people to perceive it.

[1900] Maybe there was a little jealousy or envy there.

[1901] don't know, Steve.

[1902] You know, I've never talked like this before, and I don't like to do it because it puts my father in a very bad light, but sometimes you can play on somebody's mind so much, you know, especially a woman that he loved.

[1903] And I know my mother loved me too.

[1904] Figure this one out.

[1905] There's no question my mother loved me, but I can't explain what dynamic they had going on within them.

[1906] I don't know.

[1907] But maybe there was some resentment there a little bit, even though face -to -face, I never experienced that with him, but then this happens in that room.

[1908] I don't know.

[1909] I don't think if my dad thought I was going to get killed that night, I don't think he would have gone through it.

[1910] Maybe he was in on it, you know, I don't know.

[1911] Maybe he said, hey, let's flush my son out.

[1912] I don't know.

[1913] I don't know.

[1914] And Jimmy wouldn't have known that, the guy that drove me. So I don't know.

[1915] How do you square all of this?

[1916] Because one of the things I think all human beings need, regardless of how to how to they are is love.

[1917] Yeah, absolutely.

[1918] Absolutely.

[1919] And listen, I got, my relationship with my dad was never the same, especially after I walked away.

[1920] You know, when, we didn't speak for about 10 years.

[1921] And then when I got out of prison and he was on parole and we realized, he realized, I wasn't hurting anybody.

[1922] He said, I want to see you.

[1923] Called me. I said, okay.

[1924] He said, I'm going to meet you in such and such a place.

[1925] I said, nope, I'll meet you at the house, your house.

[1926] Not going anywhere to meet you, Dad.

[1927] Almost a little mistrust there.

[1928] I'm going to be honest, you know.

[1929] And so I go to see him at, I go to his house, 5 .30 in the morning, because I was on parole, had a record at that time.

[1930] I didn't know if I was allowed to see him, you know, another violation.

[1931] He was on parole.

[1932] I was on parole.

[1933] Why did you get to his house?

[1934] I knew my mom was there, and I'm in his house.

[1935] I don't have to worry about it.

[1936] I wasn't going to go anywhere where somebody else could have been there, you know.

[1937] And I knew my dad would never do anything in his house.

[1938] That's my feeling.

[1939] So I seen him.

[1940] It was 5 .30 in the morning.

[1941] Open the door.

[1942] And he's standing there, arms folded.

[1943] And he looks at me. And his first words to me, he said, if you would have listened to me, you would have been the boss of the Colombo family.

[1944] I looked at him.

[1945] I said, Dad, are you in the twilight zone or something?

[1946] I said, I serve a different master right now.

[1947] And he looked at me and he said, do you mean his Bible stuff is for real with you because I had turned Christian at that point I said yes for real he said okay let's talk and that's kind of how we broke the ice and we spent three hours talking and going over a lot of the stuff that happened and you know some of the anger of I had in me I expressed to him you know and some of the things he said you know what he said to me and I said him I said to him if you're on call I said I'm not going back in that life I said dead You see, I wasn't here to hurt anybody, but if there's things that you don't want to express, just don't tell me. I don't want to hear it.

[1948] I mean, it was a very open, hard conversation that he and I had, but it was good because we came to an agreement in terms after that.

[1949] You know, one of the things, Steve, the mob genre on social media is like people talk and they say, think they don't know what really went on with me and my dad and our personal conversations and all of that.

[1950] And, you know, well, you know, you never went to see your dad.

[1951] When your dad died, you didn't go to his funeral.

[1952] And I didn't go.

[1953] And I didn't go for a reason.

[1954] Because, number one, I knew who else was going to be there.

[1955] I'm not going to go there and be the center of attention or maybe have something happen at my dad's funeral.

[1956] If somebody wants to make remarks for me and then it's going to be a bad time in there, I've respected my dad enough to do that.

[1957] I went to visit him privately.

[1958] I didn't need to make a show or display out of it.

[1959] And actually, people says, I mean, Michael, you better off not going.

[1960] You know, who knows if there's going to be a scene.

[1961] because I'd walked away from that life.

[1962] Other guys might have been friends of my father might have showed up, and it could have been confrontational.

[1963] I don't need to do that.

[1964] I'm not looking to put on a show.

[1965] You know, but guys make remarks, oh, you didn't care about your father.

[1966] They don't know.

[1967] They don't know when I'm personally between us.

[1968] It's not in their business.

[1969] This is probably the most open conversation I've ever had about it publicly.

[1970] Maybe at all.

[1971] I don't talk about it.

[1972] What are the stories that you're unable to tell about your time in the mafia?

[1973] You don't have to tell me the stories because you're unable to tell them.

[1974] But what are the nature of those stories that you're unable to tell?

[1975] Because you do a lot of interviews these days.

[1976] You're on podcasts.

[1977] You speak now.

[1978] You know, I mean, look, it's like I said, there was a lot of guys that I knew that were gone.

[1979] You know, it's just not there.

[1980] And I'll give you an example.

[1981] It was a guy that was around my dad, then became around me. I was his captain.

[1982] And he got involved in a drug deal with somebody that was higher up.

[1983] So he came to me. I was at a funeral, Paul, and he came to me, and he told me what happened.

[1984] And I got mad.

[1985] I said, Tony, what does it matter with you?

[1986] You've been around all this?

[1987] How the heck did you let this happen?

[1988] I said, don't worry about it.

[1989] I'm going to straighten it out.

[1990] And we were at a funeral of a guy that got killed.

[1991] And he said to me, you couldn't straight that one out, Michael.

[1992] I said, don't compare the two situations.

[1993] This was something else.

[1994] I said, don't worry about it.

[1995] I'm going to handle it.

[1996] He said, Mike, they're not going to walk me in a room.

[1997] I said, it's not going to happen.

[1998] Relax.

[1999] I promise you, I'll take care of it.

[2000] You've been around.

[2001] You're a good soldier.

[2002] You've been around a long time.

[2003] You've got a lot of respect.

[2004] Don't worry about it.

[2005] He made a stupid mistake.

[2006] We'll clear it.

[2007] I get on my plane.

[2008] I go to Florida.

[2009] My movie was being made down there.

[2010] And I go to Florida.

[2011] I get off the plane.

[2012] One of my guys calls me up.

[2013] He says, Mike, you're not going to believe this.

[2014] He said, what?

[2015] He said, Tony, went into a phone booth and blew his brains out.

[2016] He was an old time.

[2017] I was so afraid.

[2018] He said, I'm not going out.

[2019] Nobody's going to take me out, walking me into a room.

[2020] And he did it himself.

[2021] So you see things like that in that life.

[2022] And it's like, you know, I don't know what to say, you know.

[2023] How are you?

[2024] I'm good.

[2025] You know, if your wife is in a room over there, in the green room over there in another building, if I were to ask her, if I were to say, what are the type of type of things that Michael struggles with?

[2026] what would she say to me well because if you ask my girlfriend that you'd get a laundry list so I imagine your wife would say you know what do I struggle within the family you know it's funny I'm on the street I got all this stuff going for me in my house I'm just dad you know sometimes they get mad my kids take advantage of me I said I go out of my way for all of you you don't do anything in return you know you guys don't appreciate anything I guess I still have that you know I'm a pretty giving guy, Steve.

[2027] You know, I give you everything I can possibly give you.

[2028] Just, you don't have to give it back to me. Just treat me right.

[2029] Respect is a lot.

[2030] If I feel I'm being disrespect, I don't like it.

[2031] You even tell my wife sometimes.

[2032] He struggles with, you know, the littlest thing, he thinks it's disrespect.

[2033] Can't help it.

[2034] That's my nature.

[2035] You know, I don't like that.

[2036] I have a guy now, you know, trying to call him up.

[2037] He doesn't call you back for two, three days.

[2038] That's disrespectful.

[2039] You know, I don't like stuff like that.

[2040] I struggle with it because I see a lot of it around around.

[2041] You know, I don't know what else.

[2042] When people come to you and they ask, because you've been a speaker for some time now, about two decades, almost?

[2043] In 25 years.

[2044] 25 years.

[2045] What are the key things that people approach you to speak about based on your experience?

[2046] Well, it's a number.

[2047] I mean, look, everybody wants to hear the mob story.

[2048] It's intrigued with the mob story worldwide.

[2049] And I never realized that when I was in the life until I became what I am now and all over the world.

[2050] People are fascinated with more than any other criminal group, they're fascinated with the mafia.

[2051] Media, why, of course, all the great movies, you know, Al Capone, John Gotti, bigger than life, all that stuff.

[2052] So there's a fascination with this life.

[2053] United Kingdom, you know, two tours there, people, they don't, because you don't have a mafia there.

[2054] You're lucky in that regard.

[2055] But so people want to hear that.

[2056] But then they want to hear how that life has impacted me, how I've been able to get out of it and still, you know, succeed in a way.

[2057] their perception I'm succeeding, but you'll be surprised with this, Steve.

[2058] Whenever I open it up for a Q &A, which is often, you think you're going to hear all the mob questions.

[2059] You don't.

[2060] You know what it is?

[2061] How did your wife react with you after being away so long?

[2062] How did you patch that up?

[2063] How did your kids react to you?

[2064] How were you able to adjust?

[2065] Did you feel you were doing the right thing?

[2066] How is it struggles?

[2067] People, and I'm saying to myself, these people might be going through these same things in a different way.

[2068] And wow, I came out of a tough situation.

[2069] How did I make it?

[2070] Can they apply it to their own lives?

[2071] People are struggling, you know, and I see it more and more and more.

[2072] If I wanted to spend my time mentoring to people all the time, I would be overloaded just from social media and emails and texts that I get.

[2073] And it's a good feeling.

[2074] Don't get me wrong, that people see something in me that maybe can be helpful to them.

[2075] and I pursue it as much as I can.

[2076] As a matter of fact, I'm starting a platform now.

[2077] I think it's come to that point, you know, God has put it on my heart that maybe it's time to, you know, offer these people something more than just the conversation.

[2078] And so we are starting a platform where we can create this kind of family or community where not only I can be of assistance, but my team can.

[2079] And people can start to, you know, help one another.

[2080] I think we need that more than ever.

[2081] Well, link that below if you are able to send me a link to that so people can check it out.

[2082] I understand why there is intrigue.

[2083] I think a lot of people will be intrigued because the Mafia, you know, as I said to you before we start recording, I haven't watched Mafia movies.

[2084] I don't really know anything about the Mafia.

[2085] I've been enlightened today.

[2086] It's quite fascinating.

[2087] I feel like I'm going to go watch all of the movies.

[2088] But the thing that I found so compelling is just what I can learn from it.

[2089] Because I think everybody that's lived a anomalous life where they've done something different and they've walked a different path has something different that they've learned.

[2090] That is also a fundamental truth, i .e regardless of what you've done um whatever divergent path you've taken you've learned a bunch of fundamental principles of how the world works how people work how to navigate how to survive um and some of those principles are super applicable to the my day to day life i've learned so much about even business the concept of having a sit down you know we don't in business we there's not enough candor there's not enough honesty there's not enough frank conversations in that regard there's lots of emails brainstorms this person's on annual leave we're going to talk on blah blah blah blah but there's not enough of that frankness.

[2091] So those are the things that I really wanted to understand.

[2092] If you've got any more of those for me in terms of how, because you're a businessman now and you're an entrepreneur in this season of life.

[2093] And some of those principles that you learned from the Mafia days must still be applicable.

[2094] Absolutely.

[2095] Well, I'll tell you this, and I'm sure this is a principle that you follow.

[2096] You don't look like a micromanager to me. Well, I don't know.

[2097] Are you?

[2098] Well, I don't know.

[2099] I don't know.

[2100] Do you know what the honest answer is?

[2101] Yeah.

[2102] The honest answer is, I think.

[2103] and you can ask my team privately.

[2104] Actually, Jack, come over here.

[2105] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2106] No, because I genuinely want to know the truth.

[2107] Yeah.

[2108] I want to know the actual truth.

[2109] Does you micromanage?

[2110] No, Jack, you come over.

[2111] Can you speak into that mic?

[2112] Yeah.

[2113] It can pick you up.

[2114] Yeah.

[2115] Okay, Jack, 100 % honesty.

[2116] I think in some areas you can be a micromanager, but I think other areas are not.

[2117] And then I think we need to be love.

[2118] Yeah, I think I am and I'm not, and it's a real dichotomy, i .e., and again, this is just my opinion, I don't know if I've got the self -awareness for this to be accurate, but I, okay, I think that I am obsessed with the smallest details of a system, and I like to understand the smallest details of a system to some degree, and I think when I get to a point where I realize, honestly, this is what it is, that whoever's running that system can do it way better than me, I resign to it.

[2119] and I don't feel like I'm at all necessary.

[2120] And so, for example, with this production, there's nothing I can tell Jack about cameras.

[2121] Right.

[2122] There's zero.

[2123] I don't know anything about these bloody cameras or about what he does in post -production.

[2124] Do you want to know anything about it?

[2125] No. Good.

[2126] Because he's, because I trust him.

[2127] But there are instances with other team members or within other businesses that I run where I don't have the trust yet.

[2128] And I've always said to my team, and people don't like this, but you can't fake trust.

[2129] Trust for me is evidence.

[2130] So, like, how do I describe this?

[2131] If I told you to believe that I was the spaghetti monster, no matter how much you wanted to will that, I said I'm going to give you a million dollars in cash right now if you believe I'm the spaghetti monster, all of the evidence you have says that I'm a human being.

[2132] I've got two arms, two legs.

[2133] So all you could do is lie.

[2134] Right.

[2135] But you wouldn't actually believe it.

[2136] And I think trust is the same.

[2137] Like, it's evidence you do or don't have.

[2138] I have so much evidence that Jack doesn't need to be told anything about production.

[2139] Because he's, you know.

[2140] So that's kind of how my system works.

[2141] So on one end, I think a lot of my team, and I've heard them say in interviews before, that I've given them immense freedom in certain areas.

[2142] And then in other elements, I think I can be maniacal about detail and being in the weeds.

[2143] Well, my motto, and it's worked for me most of the time when I'm really paying attention.

[2144] I'm older now.

[2145] I used to be a little bit different when I was younger.

[2146] I was more hands -on.

[2147] But I came to a conclusion early on.

[2148] You can't micromanage because when you micromanage, you're taking yourself away from your best talent.

[2149] and the thing that you can contribute to the best in your business.

[2150] And so I always said, do what I do best, delegate the rest.

[2151] And then hopefully you have the talent to motivate the people and get the most out of them.

[2152] So it's a double sword, double -edged sword.

[2153] Do what you do best.

[2154] Delegate the rest.

[2155] But motivate them to the point where you're getting the most out of them.

[2156] That's critical.

[2157] That's critical because you can't do everything well.

[2158] You know, I know.

[2159] No, I know, yeah.

[2160] You know, and it's, you know, and I always say this too.

[2161] I tell people, get your personal life in order, because normally your business is going to be a reflection of your personal life in some way, shape, or form.

[2162] And you can't do both.

[2163] You can't do one well and do the other not good, because they're going to affect one another.

[2164] So have your personal life in order, be a reflection, your business will be a reflection of your personal life.

[2165] And if you can do that, do what you do best, delegate the rest, give your personal life in order.

[2166] Your business will be a reflection of that, and you're going to do okay.

[2167] I believe it.

[2168] Michael, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for.

[2169] And the question that's been left for you is, what is one event, conversation or experience that was your aha light bulb that influenced or changed your life?

[2170] Oh, look, I think the, unfortunately, you know, these are defining moments.

[2171] and in the course of my life there's been more than one but really two i'll boil it down to two one was with my dad and during that time when he proposed me into the life and the second one was with the pastor of the church that married me that i hardly knew and when we're going to get married in that church i was with him and my wife and for some reason and i was still a mob guy at that point.

[2172] I told my wife, I said, I want you to leave.

[2173] I want to speak to Dr. Taylor, Dr. Myron Taylor was.

[2174] And he was a pastor.

[2175] And I sat down with him and I said, Doc, you don't know my background.

[2176] I said, but I've done a lot of bad things in my life.

[2177] I was part of a rough lifestyle.

[2178] My wife is telling me, you know, I could be forgiven for these things.

[2179] Is it possible?

[2180] And he really opened up to me. And it was a very inspiring conversation because I really really, he was such a good man. I mean, I got to know and love this man. He's passed on now, but he married us.

[2181] And he was the one that filled me with some hope that, yeah, well, maybe I can't turn this around.

[2182] Because up till then, I didn't know.

[2183] You know, my wife was a Christian, and I was marrying her, and I respected her for her faith, but I wasn't buying into it.

[2184] You know, okay, you know, and my mother -in -law, a strong woman of faith, but I wasn't buying into it myself.

[2185] Because I said, they don't know who I am.

[2186] And then I had this conversation, and it planted the seeds to say, you know what, maybe there is something else.

[2187] Maybe I can undo some of the things, not undo them, but change some of the things, change the path of my life.

[2188] And it was a short term, maybe half hour the most, but meaningful.

[2189] And that's ultimately where your life began to change.

[2190] Yeah.

[2191] You found God.

[2192] Yes.

[2193] Or he found me, one of the two.

[2194] I don't know.

[2195] What is your closing message, Michael?

[2196] You know, it's a message, hopefully, of encouragement and hope, you know, to people that are struggling and facing challenges in their life.

[2197] And, you know, you don't always be defeated by your past.

[2198] And you're not always defined by your past.

[2199] You can change that in many cases, not in every case, but in many cases.

[2200] and I think I'm an example of that and it's been inspiring to people and it's extremely rewarding to me to know that I've been able to turn it around to a point where it's been a positive influence on people so I like people to know that that's that's what motivates me to continue to speaking not about you know it's about the way people react and you see that there's hope it's the emails the text the messages hey you've inspired me you know you've Give me hope.

[2201] And I want people to know that.

[2202] You're not defined by your past all the time, and you can make changes in your life.

[2203] I mean, that's certainly one of the very inspiring messages you leave me with is just this idea that in all of our lives, it's going to come in seasons, and we're able, and we have the permission to change with the seasons.

[2204] We don't have to be fixed to an identity or to a past or to an old job title.

[2205] or to a group of people we used to associate with at any time we can make the decision, although it's not going to be fast, to become who we always were, I guess.

[2206] You know, I started this conversation asking you who you were.

[2207] Yeah.

[2208] I kind of suspect you were the same person you always were fundamentally, but circumstances changed.

[2209] Beliefs have changed.

[2210] Your who you're accountable to has changed.

[2211] Yes.

[2212] Your values have become refined, you know, and all these things.

[2213] But at the end of the day, it's the same human being but with a different sense of principles and purpose in their life.

[2214] And I look back at my life and it's the same.

[2215] I haven't always been great.

[2216] I haven't always done good things.

[2217] There were tough parts where I did things that I'm not proud of and probably wouldn't say on camera too much.

[2218] But I think that's really important.

[2219] I think the best thing for humanity is that people have a chance to evolve and can be forgiven and move on and they're judged for how they show up today.

[2220] Your book is incredibly inspiring.

[2221] It's also incredibly fascinating.

[2222] mafia democracy by yourself.

[2223] And the forward on here is from Rudy Giuliani, which I thought was hilarious, because I know that he was an enemy for much of your careers.

[2224] And he was trying to destroy you, give you a hundred year sentence.

[2225] He was instrumental in imposing some of the laws that shut down the mafia's heyday as well.

[2226] And thank you for your honesty, because although I know it's not always easy to recount certain memories from certain chapters of our life, in doing so, you enlighten us to the true nature of what it is to be a human and the complexities of what it is to be a human and all the forces that are in play and all of us all of the time.

[2227] And that's inspiring, but it's also liberating because even though we've walked very different lives, there's so many similarities and so many lessons that I've learned from you.

[2228] So thank you, Michael.

[2229] I appreciate you.

[2230] Well, I appreciate that.

[2231] And I want to tell you, I'm very inspired by you.

[2232] You know, like I said, I'm very impressed when somebody at a young age has it together, works hard and reaches the level that you've reached at a young age.

[2233] I mean, it's very inspiring.

[2234] We need, you know, I hope you continue to be, you know, an example of somebody that can just really put their head to the grind and make it.

[2235] And I've read up on you, and I know that's what you've done.

[2236] You've created a great, great business here, and just keep going.

[2237] Thank you, Michael.

[2238] Okay, thank you.

[2239] You got it.