World Leading Sex Therapist - How To Avoid Having Bad Sex - Kate Moyle

[0] Oh, it's the question everyone wants the answer to.

[1] Yeah, right.

[2] It's...

[3] What is the single biggest killer of relationships in the modern age?

[4] Let's talk about sex.

[5] Today's podcast is very, very different, but incredibly, incredibly important.

[6] Today I'm sitting down with Kate Moyle, who is a sex therapist and a relationship therapist to talk about some of the taboo topics which we don't normally discuss.

[7] Things like erectile dysfunction.

[8] Sexual inadequacies.

[9] issues we all have in our relationships and sex lives the single biggest killer of relationships in 2021 sexual anxiety how to keep a sexual relationship exciting and everything in between I'm going to share some very personal sexual stories that I've never shared before some of the things that have gone well and some of the problems that I've had that have caused relationships that have meant the world to me to end this is a very very honest open podcast today you know this is why this is called the diary of a CEO and Kate is the perfect person to put them to.

[10] So I think you're going to enjoy this conversation.

[11] I certainly did.

[12] I feel very vulnerable sharing some of these stories with you.

[13] But as I always say, just keep it to yourself.

[14] So without further ado, this is the dire of a CEO.

[15] I hope nobody's listening.

[16] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[17] Sex.

[18] I think it's fair to say that everybody has some kind of challenge with sex, at least some point, you know, at least at some point within their life.

[19] And I am no different.

[20] In fact, my last relationship, which was a very, I thought, I genuinely at one point thought that was going to be my wife.

[21] The reason that relationship broke down was because of a sexual issue.

[22] And a sexual issue that showed up about seven or eight months into the relationship.

[23] And long story short, I know this isn't a therapy session, but it kind of is as well.

[24] at some point seven, eight months into our relationship she told me that she didn't like having sex and I didn't know what that meant and as a guy that's never experienced that in my life I read into it probably in the wrong way but it definitely made me insecure I was like what you don't like having sex how's that possible and I thought that was some kind of condemnation on me I thought that was something negative towards me or something that I was doing wrong And I tried various things.

[25] I tried to be a bit more and just listen, you know, listen a little bit more to what she wanted and how she wanted it.

[26] And then, you know, it progressively got to a point where I was getting in bed and I was shitting myself because you don't want to, once you get reject, I've never been like, I've never gone to have sex with someone in my life and been rejected in that way.

[27] And so you get in bed and you don't want to even ask them for sex because you might take an L and you don't want to take that L. And then how the hell am I meant to get an erection as a guy?

[28] when I'm that fucking scared of rejection and eventually long story short we're in um we're away one time and the same issue happened and she we were having sex and I clearly I was looking at her thinking she clearly isn't enjoying this at all and we stopped she started crying she said um I've got a problem um she said like you know I just don't enjoy sex I need to like address it I said to what you want to talk about it she said I'm not comfortable talking about sex with you even though we've been in a relationship for a year and I left and And then I broke up with her.

[29] And I do regret breaking up with her because I did so maybe too flippantly.

[30] And I didn't understand it.

[31] And I didn't think it was fixable.

[32] And I didn't know how to fix it.

[33] And yeah, sorry for my brain, you know, my dumping that on you.

[34] But good place to start.

[35] No, I think.

[36] And, you know, so much of what you've just said, there's so many points there that, you know, I hear all the time.

[37] So difficulties with desire, struggles with communication, struggles with.

[38] knowing like where to start in terms of talking about it, anxiety, you know, all of these points which can kind of get in the bedroom with us or be in bed with us.

[39] And we just don't know how we're meant to address them.

[40] We don't know what we're meant to do about them.

[41] And we all feel that sense of what am I doing wrong here or what's wrong with me?

[42] Do I have a problem?

[43] Am I broken?

[44] You know, all of these phrases.

[45] And actually working with all of the information that you've just given me, you know, as an example, we can kind of target or work with each of those problems in an individual way which isn't terrifying for people, which doesn't create more anxiety, which doesn't damage self -esteem.

[46] But we don't have those conversations in a bigger, more normalizing way.

[47] And I think one of the biggest things that I talk about is this idea that sex like everything else across our lives has good days, bad days, average days, variability but we expect there to be this constant and we expect it to be protected from everything else that we have going on in our lives and that just isn't the case but and somewhat automatically right like we kind of expected to take care of itself yeah and relationships as well we kind of expect that you know once they're good they're always good that they shouldn't falter that we shouldn't have to work at them that they shouldn't struggle and I think that there's such a problem with that as a basic foundation message around sex and relationships.

[48] How do you reframe that then?

[49] How do I reframe my thinking in order to make sure that I'm, I guess that is a reframing of my thinking.

[50] If I think that this thing isn't going to take care of itself and it needs to be worked on like everything else in my life, I guess that's the answer to keeping it exciting.

[51] Yeah.

[52] I mean, I think there's just a normalising of the fact that our sex lives and our relationships are in the context of us.

[53] They're not isolation.

[54] they're not protected they don't have their own kind of special area where they aren't impacted by how we feel about ourselves stress anxiety our health our mental health you know physically what's going on for us um psychologically what's going on for us but why don't we just give ourselves a break and be like do you know what we're not perfect or good or great at everything else we do all the time so why would we be here i don't think you know i think as professionals we often talk about like why aren't we applying the logic that we apply everywhere else in our lives to this part of our lives?

[55] And in that particular case with me and my, this particular person, she turned to me. I remember we were away one time and she said to me, you know, there's loads of people that are like me that don't have like a high libido or whatever.

[56] And I have just never encountered these people in my experiences.

[57] So I thought, oh, that's rubbish.

[58] Was she right?

[59] Yes.

[60] Yeah.

[61] And how right is she?

[62] Very right.

[63] And you know, we understand that, you know, this is a huge part of the conversation around sex lives at the moment and sexual wellness at the moment is this idea about desire.

[64] Desire is not a fixed concept that we're born with.

[65] We're not kind of given or holding a set amount.

[66] It's not like we kind of have an amount and we like use it up.

[67] It is context dependent.

[68] It's responsive.

[69] And we understand that it changes.

[70] But actually how we can change that with.

[71] within kind of take power of our own, I suppose, or change that within the context that we're in, how we can feel in control of that is based in almost how we define it or how we understand it ourselves.

[72] And there's a huge problem with just thinking, okay, well, I had it.

[73] Now I don't have it in the same way anymore.

[74] So what's wrong with me or what's broken or what changed or what's not working here rather than if I reframe my understanding, my thinking about this, it makes a lot more sense.

[75] And it takes the pressure off.

[76] And when the pressure's off, then I can work with this in a more pleasure -focused, enjoyable way, rather than an anxiety -provoking and stressful way.

[77] What should I have done?

[78] So the first time she turns to me, she says, Steve, I'm just not that interested.

[79] Because what it was is we're in bed and we're away on holiday.

[80] And I like, you know, just I don't know what I do, whatever I do to let someone know that I want to have sex.

[81] I don't know, stroke their arm or whatever.

[82] I did whatever I do.

[83] And she was just like, no. And what should I have done then?

[84] Because, you know, I think a lot of people would take that as a bit of an L. And I certainly did.

[85] I was like, what?

[86] And I was angry as well.

[87] Not like visibly angry.

[88] Not like, you know, hitting with a pillar or anything.

[89] But I was like, I remember turning away and thinking, oh, fuck, you know, like, because I'd never experienced that before.

[90] I'd never experienced that like, it is a form of rejection.

[91] It's like a form of, it's a, it's a, kicking the self -esteem.

[92] What should I have done?

[93] Well, I think, you know, I can't talk to what was going on for you to, like, kind of in, in that moment then.

[94] But, you know, the biggest problem that couples in situations like that have is assumption.

[95] So as you said, like, this is the kick in the teeth for me. Like, that hurts.

[96] I feel rejected.

[97] So we internalise.

[98] And actually, the best way for us to deal with something like that is to try and explain, to try and move away from assumption, to explanation, to understanding, because actually, if we can have a conversation which opens it up, and you hear sex and relationship experts, talk about communication being, you know, the kind of biggest pillar of sexual wellness or sexual well -being, and assumption kind of and the gap between expectations and reality is actually the biggest place that we have a lot of these problems.

[99] And I think that it feels like, you know, that's a good example.

[100] of that happening?

[101] Fast forward four months the same sort of issue happened and she turned to me and this is when I thought it was completely over and she said to me, I'm not comfortable with talking to you about sex right and we've been together for a year and I thought well if we can't talk about it and I don't really understand the issue and you're not willing to talk about it then we are fucked and I thought and that's when I left I left that country soon after and I broke up with her maybe like a I don't know two, three weeks later because I thought if we can't talk about it then how do we fix the situation but I do regret it because I think I reflect and I think I don't want to be the type of guy generally that when they care about someone will walk away from it so easily and I think I should have made a more active effort to try and support as you say and understand maybe but I would say sometimes the hardest person to talk to about sex as the person we're having it with.

[102] Yeah.

[103] Because of it's so loaded, it's so, like, intimate, it's so vulnerable.

[104] And also the fear of getting it wrong or making it worse or leading our partners on or it going in the wrong direction or us not being able to unhear what we've heard or unsay what we've said.

[105] So actually, you know, that natural human response to feeling anxiety around something is avoidance.

[106] You know, we don't tend to.

[107] approach the sources of our anxiety unless we're trying really hard to hone in on it or focus on it.

[108] Our most natural instinct is, I don't want to go there.

[109] You know, like it's just easier to keep the status quo, even if that status quo isn't working.

[110] And so it's about thinking about how do we help people to approach that source of anxiety or feel empowered to change their conversation around sex?

[111] Because it's really hard.

[112] It's like talking in a language that we've not been taught.

[113] You know, we're not taught how to have these conversations.

[114] We're not taught to be comfortable about these conversations.

[115] We're not taught that sex is normalized as a topic.

[116] And then we're expected to all be experts and that our partners are going to be experts.

[117] And we're all expecting that from each other.

[118] And then when it doesn't work, you know, we have no solutions or ways of knowing how to deal with it.

[119] Now, some of us muddle through, we kind of work it out.

[120] We're like, okay, well, let's try this or think about this or take expert advice, they'll listen to a podcast or read a book or get the information and we can kind of work our way through it.

[121] But for a lot of us, that's way too intimidating.

[122] You know, sex feels like an off the record, you know, off the table topic.

[123] How do you bring it on the table?

[124] And I'm presuming that couples that are successful in the bedroom are those that bring it on the table to some degree?

[125] Is that a fair assumption?

[126] Yeah, I think that's definitely a fair assumption.

[127] I think that it takes the courage to do it.

[128] It takes the kind of sitting in the uncomfortable.

[129] It might be quite anxiety -provoking.

[130] Obviously, some people kind of seek out therapy or external advice or someone that can help them manage those conversations or they might do it in their own way.

[131] So it might be kind of reading a book and sharing that with each other or listening to a TED talk and then sharing that with each other and using that as a springboard to have that conversation.

[132] but I would say it's talking about it outside of the bedroom is the biggest way to put it on the table.

[133] And is it possible to be just like sexually incompatible with someone?

[134] Yeah, I think it is in the way it's impossible to be incompatible with anything else.

[135] But what we can also do is, you know, when we have different interests for different preferences in other areas of our lives, we can work together to negotiate that, to manage that.

[136] to kind of work to each other's kind of preferences or and kind of switch that around or manage that, manage that kind of relational bit, that kind of bit in between.

[137] And it is possible to do that with sex.

[138] But also for some people, they might have deal breakers and they might not be able to meet those for each other.

[139] This is, I don't know if this is too much information, but I don't think I care.

[140] I remember one day as well, I tried to introduce, because I typically, when I have sex, I typically use a lot of, additional apparatus so i'll use all kinds of stuff i don't care like i'll use handcuffs and all kinds of ropes and toys and whatever else and i remember trying to introduce something like that because i thought maybe it would make it a little bit more interesting for her and um she was like absolutely not she she said to me that she thought i think it was a vibrator she thought a vibrator was for old people and you know i'm already up i'm ready up against it here lad so i'm trying to like do something to help and when she said that I just thought like maybe we are just like sexually incompatible maybe we just speak two different languages here so I don't know if they're like sometimes one part you know what I would say is it's actually more common for couples to not be perfectly sexually matched yeah than it is for them to be like perfectly sexually matched in every way and for some people they are more ready to try something or you know they might be the one that leads something and then the other partner kind of catches up or it's really about also kind of like how we perceive what our partner is suggesting or how we what we think that means because one of the things about sex is we have this idea as humans about like metacognition like we think about our thoughts we think about what that our thoughts mean and I think it's really really apparent when it comes to sex and relationships because we're trying to constantly analyze what happening or as you said kind of looking out for like the risk of rejection or the fear of rejection we're trying to understand what that means about us or what that means about them or what it means about our relationship and so we're always trying to I suppose think about like what's going on and the wider context or meaning of that now when it comes to sex we're already in a culture and a society where it's a bit taboo where it's quite stigmatized where we don't necessarily want to kind of step outside the norms or the expectations because what does that mean about us as a person?

[141] I, you know, since that whole event, I, you know, we spoke a little bit after we broke up and she told me that was actually the first time she told me that she had like a low libido and I actually didn't really understand what that meant.

[142] So I googled it.

[143] But then I started talking to some friends about it, specifically some male friends.

[144] And I had another male friend say to me, one of my best friends said to me that he also had the same problem where he just lost his um sexual desire um in you know when he got to a certain age which i i was shocked about because you don't people don't have these conversations so you don't think it happens so when we encounter it whether it's in the bedroom or wherever else um yeah it really feels like a real anomaly but how how common is low libido and and also what are the what are the typical causes of someone having a low libido i think really common and i think you know like much of the stuff we don't have huge and huge amounts of at least up to date like sex research so you know it's something that people are really trying to kind of develop in the space but what we understand when we think about desire so we've got desire and we've got arousal so arousal the body's physical ability to kind of prepare for sex the desire the want to be sexual and what we understand is that it typically changes across relationships and what feels really difficult about it is that at the start of relationships when everything is new and exciting we're getting to know each other we're exploring it feels like desire is very high we're kind of leaning into that because it's the way of getting to know each other a way of connecting with that person and it's kind of what we understand is it's triggered I suppose a lot because a lot of the situations we find ourselves in our novel are kind of tuning into also the area of our brain that likes the new things that nikes the excitement, and we have that sense of wanting to get closer to that person, wanting to get to know them.

[145] Now, also what we see, particularly this is with a relationship focus, is there's exchange of kind of novelty, newness, the unknown exploration for routine, security, safety, getting to know someone.

[146] So we kind of see these things switching out almost.

[147] And so it's just actually that as we get kind of more used to each other, there are less of those kind of triggering, like exciting moments, which are where desire can tend to thrive.

[148] And what we need to do is perhaps just slightly more consciously or with a bit more of an effort, put in the time to create those spaces.

[149] Now, chuck in, I mean, you know, the year we found ourselves in, where no one's had any kind of personal space or independence or ability to go away and come back together, kind of change of context.

[150] But technology, the kind of, well, third and fourth, if there's two people in the relationship, wheels that are constantly taking our attention, kind of demanding us, you know, distracting us.

[151] So we're missing signals from our partners.

[152] We're missing those kind of, I suppose, quality time moments.

[153] We're constantly being notified or we're distracted.

[154] And actually, then it's harder for us to give each other our full attention to kind of sit down and focus on each other to have the things that promote connection, eye contact, touch.

[155] We're constantly kind of looking around and connecting, I suppose, with everyone apart from the person actually that we're in.

[156] It creates a barrier.

[157] And so how do, you know, you get five, 10, 15, 20 years into a relationship and you've started to get, you know, secure and the things are predictable.

[158] How do you, this is probably the most, you know, popular question I'm sure you get, which is like, how do you keep it fresh?

[159] What advice would you give me to keep my sex life with a partner I've been with for X amount of years still fresh, exciting and, you know, exploratory?

[160] Yeah, I think it's.

[161] I mean, it's the question everyone wants the answer.

[162] It's, it is about, I suppose, first thing, acknowledging that it might be different to how it used to be.

[163] So, again, one of I think the biggest hurdles people can get kind of tripped over on is it's not the same as it used to be or it changed.

[164] Now, why does that mean it's worse?

[165] You know, actually, perhaps the quality of the sex that people might be having might be better, because they know each other better, they understand each other's bodies better, they feel more in tune with each other.

[166] So it's understanding that you might be in a different phase or stage, and that's okay.

[167] It doesn't have to be, you know, that famous phrase, the honeymoon period that kind of everybody quotes or goes back to.

[168] So I think that is one thing.

[169] And I think actually kind of carving out the time and the space and the effort and not seeing that as a bad thing, not seeing that as problematic that we have to be a bit more conscious of that part of our relationships is a huge, huge factor because what the kind of common narrative we see in society, I suppose, is if I have to make an effort for this, then there must be something wrong with that because sex should be spontaneous, should be something that just happened.

[170] That's what it says in the movies.

[171] Which is part of the problem, right?

[172] because that's one of the most easily accessible visual versions of sex that we have.

[173] We don't see into other people's sex lives in the same way.

[174] Now what we do see is social media or pictures of couples or images of couples or and we make assumptions about them.

[175] We make assumptions about they look happy, but they have great sex.

[176] Yeah, in porn, it's just like the gardeners like outside and then he like comes in and the husband's away and then like it's just, boom, perfect.

[177] last an hour, everyone looks like they're having a great time.

[178] But one of the best phrases that I heard and, you know, is trying to learn about sex from porn is like learning to drive from watching the fast and the furious.

[179] And it's one of the things that I go back to it.

[180] I wish I knew who said it.

[181] And if you know, please tell me, so you can claim it.

[182] But porn wasn't designed as an educational tool, but a lot of people have used it as one.

[183] And that's again...

[184] Oh, I mean, like every man ever.

[185] And also women, to be fair, I think men have this bias where we think women don't watch porn.

[186] But then you ask a woman, you know, and I've asked several of my ex -girlfriends if they've watched porn.

[187] And yeah, they do.

[188] Some of them do.

[189] But I'd say, and this is a general, and I'd love you to correct me here, because I'd love to not be, I love to be corrected on things like this, where I'm so naive.

[190] I would tend to believe that, like, 90 % of my male friends watch porn.

[191] And then I think it's probably like 50 % of my female friends.

[192] Do you know the numbers?

[193] Is that?

[194] I don't know the numbers, but I, you know, we know that women.

[195] watch porn.

[196] We know that there are also a huge rise of like female friendly female focus pornography platforms kind of coming forward.

[197] And I think that a lot of those ideas again tie into these old stereotypes or narratives about like male sexuality and female sexuality.

[198] And then, you know, we're trying to change the conversation around this.

[199] And I think that it's also about recognizing that they're not these kind of like two like so separate entities.

[200] And actually that we can understand that we're all.

[201] all sexual creatures, or we all have our own versions of sexuality.

[202] And what that doesn't mean is that it has to, again, kind of line up with the narratives that have always been there, which is like, men do this, women do this.

[203] But are there distinctions between sexual appetite and the type of representation of sex that men and women typically want to see?

[204] I was going to ask you a question, which kind of alludes to the same answer, but it's like, if you were to create a point, because you said there's now sites emerging, which are like female friends.

[205] I'm like what's the what's the difference what's how do they I suppose well you know one of the things that a lot of these sites are creating is a focus on kind of female pleasure in a way which is that what we know for example is that the majority of women and or like the most common way of bringing women to orgasm is through direct digital stimulation but for example in not necessarily porn but in the movies we never see that and so then everyone is kind of what they see in the movies, and no wonder it's not quite working.

[206] So I think that there's also educational elements starting to kind of come forward in a lot of that kind of content as well.

[207] I guess that makes sense.

[208] If the demand for pornography has been skewed male, then what you're seeing in the pornography would also be catered to what a male likes to believe is, you know, men, as you say, like, alluded to their men typically get their arousal from like what do they call it vaginal penetration I guess that's the time of intercourse yeah intercourse whatever but women would typically get reach like an orgasm via clitorial stimulation so porn tends to reflect the the former um so has has porn been a a positive or negative impact on um our perceptions and images of what are own sexual relationship should be like, do you think?

[209] Oh, it's such a big question, is it?

[210] Again, it's the one that everyone wants to know the answer to it.

[211] I think that the problem that we've seen is when people have used it as an educational resource, and that's not how it was designed.

[212] Now, what it has offered is people who are exploring their sexuality and feel that it doesn't fit, for example, the norm or expected norm, you know, however you want, whatever terminology you want to use for that, it's offered those people.

[213] sense of community or safety in exploring or belonging or knowing that they're not alone, not isolated in their experience.

[214] And so there are, you know, like everything in life, there's going to be huge pros and cons.

[215] And like anything in life, it's how people use anything.

[216] But I think for me, you know, working with people with sexual problems and relationship problems, isolation or feeling alone in your experience is probably the biggest side effect or negative side effect on mental health or on the problem itself of what they're experiencing, of what they're struggling with.

[217] And so combating that, which in a way is where therapy helps, you know, we're kind of sharing that conversation.

[218] We know that shame thrives in silence.

[219] We're starting to externalise.

[220] We're starting to talk about these things.

[221] is making people feel they're not alone is massive.

[222] I, um, one of the things you said, I read that you'd said before, which I thought was really good advice, especially as it relates to keeping sex, like fresh and exciting, was just to change one thing every time.

[223] And I wanted to, for you to tell me why you think that's important and how that helps.

[224] It goes back to some of the themes you've talked about, but it was one of the things that I thought I could immediately, do in my own sex life to keep things continually fresh and what are those small things that you're referring to when you say i suppose what i like about that is it's actionable so it's this idea that we can all be like empowered and in control to do something in our sex lives and you know like one of the the phrases we hear kind of all the time is like mixing it up spicing it up and what i think people get intimidated by is the idea that they have to do something massive to do that they have to you know go out like buy a whole new wardrobe yeah exactly or try something that they've like never done before or you know buy 25 sex stories or um you know try everything like and that in itself then becomes a barrier to people trying it because they're like oh god that sounds scary it's expensive as well but you know like that it's that um god like how am i going to do that There's no stepping stones to that.

[225] It's a whole bridge, a whole jump.

[226] And that puts people off.

[227] So again, we're back to that avoidance thing.

[228] Do you know what?

[229] I'll just stay in my safe zone.

[230] I'll stay in my comfort zone.

[231] I'll stay where I am.

[232] Like the idea of trying that and it not working or trying that and it failing feels way scarier than where we're at right now.

[233] And so I think that idea of like changing one thing every time is it's also that routine doesn't kind of help or promote or kind of encouraged desire because we're like, oh, I know what's coming.

[234] I know how this is going to go.

[235] And what we're then doing is we're more likely to kind of let our thoughts wonder or be distracted.

[236] And we see that with people, you know, they're like, I know what's going to go.

[237] So actually I wasn't really noticing what was happening in my body or that experience.

[238] I was thinking about everything I need to do tomorrow.

[239] And so what it does is it works as a way of encouraging, breaking up routine.

[240] Now, these are small things, like having the lights on or having the lights on.

[241] off, starting with your clothes on or your clothes off, keeping your underwear on or underwear off, using lube or not, you know, taking intercourse off the table for that evening and just focusing on non -penetitive sex, trying a sex toy, or, you know, putting, even something simple that I talk about is putting, like, your pillows on the other end of your bed, so your room feels different, like lighting candles, changing a smell, having a shower or not, you know.

[242] Doing it in the street.

[243] You can get arrested for that.

[244] But, you know, it's that idea of these are all accessible within range, non -intimidating things that we can try to create shifts and changes.

[245] Is it possible for some, you know, because I've got this one friend.

[246] And I'm sorry for just rinse one of my friends here.

[247] I've got this one friend.

[248] This is a problem with being friends with me. You always appear in the podcast if you've got any slight, like, peculiarity about you.

[249] And like I feel like all of my friends have been mentioned in this podcast at least once.

[250] They just don't know where they're being mentioned.

[251] but I've got this one friend who is a guy and he I've known him maybe 10 years and I don't think he's ever had sex and he's maybe 27 28 years old or whatever and I don't believe he's ever had sex I've never I've never seen him in a relationship he doesn't talk to girls at all or guys for that matter and I don't it's just so unusual because in our in our friendship group we talk about sex a lot, so we're always talking about, you know, who we're sleeping with and various things.

[252] And we've basically just learned to just not have the conversation with him or when he's there, you know, if we're just like joking with each other as friends, we wouldn't never joke with him because it's just this big question mark and none of us know the answer.

[253] And I think my conclusion has become being, maybe he's just asexual, if that's a thing.

[254] Yeah, that's the thing.

[255] And what, and if you, I'm sure you've heard about this before, right?

[256] What is, what's going on?

[257] Well, I mean, like, we don't know what's going on for that person, but, you know, asexuality is an identity, you know, like people who don't experience sexual attraction.

[258] And what that also doesn't mean, so we have asexuality and aromanticism.

[259] So those are two different concepts.

[260] So what we can see is that people can have successful relationships and be asexual because they can have connection and friendship and intimacy.

[261] And we can see that people who are, So we can understand that it's not a kind of like pairing necessarily.

[262] And something I also talk about is we can have intimacy without sex and sex without intimacy.

[263] Now, what a group that I've also worked with is lots of people who have such bad sexual anxiety, and this is in no way me saying what's going on for your friend, but that limits them in sexually exploring or taking their sex life to where they want to go or dating or seeing people.

[264] Because what it can feel a bit like is if we, get on the ladder of, for example, meeting someone or dating, then we get closer towards the source of our anxiety, which might be sex.

[265] And I think that people who haven't had sexual experiences, and I suppose bear in mind you're only viewing this from your perspective, rather than speaking to the person that you've been speaking to, is that kind of, it can feel like a snowball effect of, and it's something that I talk a lot about in therapy with people that I'm working with is this snowball effect of, okay, well, the older I get, the more I feel that this is a worry, or the more I feel other people will judge me, or the more I feel that I won't match up to what's expected of me, or that I will get kind of found out.

[266] And I think that these anxieties around sex are also, because what we assume is sexuality in people.

[267] So we kind of assume everyone's sexually active.

[268] It goes back to that point about feeling isolated or alone in our experience, everybody else is doing it, so what's wrong with me?

[269] And the problem we have when it comes to sex is we can't know with people until we check it out.

[270] We can't know until we're judging someone's inside world based on what we see from the outside and actually what we know with sex is that they don't always match up.

[271] There's no way of really knowing until we, for example, you know, sit down with a therapist and unpack it or sit down with a friend or a family member or whoever that is we share you know a partner that conversation with I think there's also like I was just thinking then about there's also this like wider philosophical question of like what is the purpose of sex because if you see sex as being you know just to ejaculate then you know you might encounter a bunch of issues there because the role that's sex is playing for your partner might be a completely different one so I guess at first you have to understand what role sex plays in relationships to your partner, but also to yourself.

[272] Like, is that, how would you define the purpose or the role of sex?

[273] What is it?

[274] Why do we do it?

[275] And what's it for?

[276] We're going to make a sexual therapist of you yet.

[277] Oh, here we go.

[278] We're having my job in a minute.

[279] Yeah, I know.

[280] You'll see tomorrow.

[281] I'll see the next page.

[282] It's like, sex with Steve.

[283] It's just everything you've said.

[284] I'm just like reselling it.

[285] So one of my favorite pieces of research and anyone who's listened to my podcast or any of the interviews and stuff I know is going to be so bored of hearing me bang on about this is a paper called why humans have sex.

[286] And it was done in 2007 and it identified 237 reasons for why humans have sex.

[287] We don't have that kind of time unfortunately.

[288] It's the next question.

[289] So it's just this understanding of like the motivations for why people have sex and that is such a wide breadth of those.

[290] And that might be, you know, my favorite, my favorite one from that study is because I was cold because I wanted to get warm but we can understand that it might be because I want an orgasm because my partner looked hot because I wanted to feel close to them because I wanted to show them I loved them because because because because because the meaning of sex goes so beyond the what of what we're doing but we are so focused on the what all the time and then we get so tangled up in everything that's kind of psychologically going on for us.

[291] And I think that, you know, sometimes we're thinking about the why.

[292] You know, what does it represent in our relationship?

[293] If we're in a relationship, what does it represent to us if we're single?

[294] What does it represent to us if actually the sexual relationship we have is just with ourselves?

[295] You know, I think that thinking about that is such a big part of us understanding ourselves sexually.

[296] There's definitely emotional elements, but there's also like a physical, prehistoric, maybe evolutionary role that sex plays, right?

[297] And has that been somewhat lost upon us now.

[298] Like, because my body, my body, you know, the chemicals in my body will start tickling me and telling me that I'm horny.

[299] And then, you know, that will drive me into action, you know, I feel like the role, the sort of prehistoric evolutionary role of sex has been lost upon us a little bit, especially now that, you know, we have all this contraception and we can swerve having kids.

[300] So I think it's become a bit of a sport for many people.

[301] Well, sex is about pleasure, isn't it?

[302] you tell me well you know I think you know well what we see is that the majority of the reasons that people have sex are not to do with procreation yeah and also the problem is I think something you kind of said earlier was it's so goal it can be so goal orientated now again this is where so many people struggle with sex Because if sex is goal -orientated, and as you said, the goal is to orgasm or to ejaculate or to finish, then what happens if that doesn't happen?

[303] We feel like we've failed.

[304] Yeah.

[305] And so what it creates then is this goal -orientated kind of pass or fail model for sex.

[306] Now, the complete irony of that is if we're struggling and we're focused on where we need to get to as a goal, the act of focusing on where we need to get to is actually the thing.

[307] that is most likely to not get us there because it's preventative because if we are in the moment enjoying what we're doing experiencing kind of pleasure and sensations and able to enjoy it then that's actually the thing that's probably most likely to get us there but if we're so distracted by the negative thoughts that are going on in our heads we're so distracted by our concerns our worries, that is going to break down that kind of process of us getting there.

[308] Because I know a lot of people, every sentence I say sounds so strange.

[309] I can say I know a lot of people that struggle with orgasms.

[310] But I know I've spoken to some of my girlfriends and I've asked them if they've orgasmed.

[311] And in fact, one of my ex -girlfriends, she said to me that she had basically never had an orgasm in her life, which I obviously as a guy you find quite, well, well, not obviously, but as a guy that has never had that problem, I found that quite peculiar.

[312] And I wondered why some people can orgasm so easily, and then some people find it a lot more difficult.

[313] In this particular case, my suspicions were that it was an emotional thing.

[314] In fact, what you've just described there about worry, this is one of the people that I know that's very, very tense about the topic of sex.

[315] And I just thought, you know, my suspicion, again, super naive, was that they're not, knowing this person, they would probably not be able to relax in bed and then when they became a sexual partner of mine I thought yeah they're just like not relaxed at all but I wanted to get your take on why some people find it so easy to orgasm and then some people just can't at all well I think it also goes back to almost like the first time you know early messages about this stuff as well you know early messages about what it's like to have these experiences is what it's like to be sexual.

[316] You know, is it something that's never been talked about?

[317] Is it something that's shrouded in shame?

[318] Is it something that we think that we shouldn't be doing or we think about ourselves a certain way for doing?

[319] And so there's so many components to this as a conversation.

[320] You know, probably too many, you know, longer than we have time for.

[321] But there's the idea of how we, again, think about what we're doing, how we know and learn about our bodies, what we know and learn about our bodies, how we discover what works for us and our preferences.

[322] So there's the physical element.

[323] You know, we talk about an orgasm as a peak pleasure experience, but also how we feel about it.

[324] Because if we're feeling shame or embarrassment or that we shouldn't be doing this, that is going to be something which, again, gets in the way of us being able to fully let go and enjoy ourselves or giving ourselves.

[325] In therapy, we talk a lot about this idea of giving ourselves permission to be sexual or to let us.

[326] let go or to enjoy ourselves or to experience pleasure again this is super naive but an orgasm is a pretty natural thing isn't it it's like a natural physiological reaction to stimulation so again super naive I will just disclaimer from here on out that everything I say is largely naive and I'll stop disclaimering every sentence but so one would assume that if you know if we're struggling to orgasm then there's something maybe emotional maybe even physical that's being going unmet there might be something going on but you know it's there's probably like something emotional going on but it's also about you know have we learned to do this like have we learned to kind of experience pleasure enough to take us there and also once we do then we're like okay I understand how my body works now I understand how that feels and I think for lots of the lack of sex education here is a huge part of the problem you know pleasure has historically been left out of the conversation and particularly female pleasure.

[327] Who are your, who are your clients?

[328] Who comes to you with the sex issues and challenges the most?

[329] Normal people with normal problems, you know, everyday people for everyday genders.

[330] Genders, you know, both men and women.

[331] I work with both couples and individuals.

[332] I have a lot of younger clients.

[333] So a lot of my clients are kind of in that sub 45 age bracket.

[334] But I work with a lot of people in their kind of early 20s.

[335] And I think that early 20s, and I think that early 20s, kind of 30s, but also there's a couple of things that are going on.

[336] One is that therapy has become less taboo in itself and sex is much less taboo.

[337] And we have this kind of corner of therapy, which is like a sexual therapy where I think people recognize that it now can be a solution or that sexual problems aren't just medical, that actually there can be something psychological or emotional going on.

[338] And I think that the idea of access to helping help for this stuff now has become much more normalized, which is brilliant, I think, you know, and much needed.

[339] And there are some amazing, amazing sexual experts and sexual therapists in this country who, you know, I hope are really being, and I know of really being used by people to help them improve this part of their lives.

[340] And I think that, again, a part of it is any other aspect of our life, we would go and see a doctor or go and see a physio or go and see a nutritionist or whatever it is you know if another part of if a part of our body wasn't working we would access help for it without feeling embarrassed you know if we'd injured our knee we wouldn't feel embarrassed about going to ask someone about that but why when it comes to sex do we feel that we shouldn't access the help and then the longer we're struggling with that the more of a problem that becomes because we don't just have the original problem, but how we think and feel about it.

[341] But is there like an age range where people are more likely to go into a sexual therapist?

[342] No, I don't think there is than I think that...

[343] So you think it's evenly distributed from like 20 to 80?

[344] Yeah.

[345] I mean, and I think, you know, again, it's a bit about life stages, isn't it?

[346] You know, what are people looking to explore at different stages?

[347] We see, for example, people might go after a cancer diagnosis or cancer treatment.

[348] or for example around menopause or that there are certain health conditions that impact sexuality or you know common side effect of a lot of anti -anxiety medications and antidepressants are an impact on sex lives or it might be that someone is starting their sexual experiences or they've had a relationship where sex has been a problem and they don't want to carry that on into their next relationship I think that it's about understanding like what has brought that person to therapy at that time is a big part of for me as a therapist anyway kind of exploring what's going on for that person what's the trigger for dealing with it now polygamy do you have a lot of people come to you with in polygamous relationships so you mean like polyamory like multi -partner relationships and what are the issues typically that are you'd see with yeah polyamorous polygamous relationships yeah I think that it's something that people have a lot of questions about It's something that, you know, I've talked about on my podcast because it's what people are curious about because it's also a breaking away from our kind of heteronormative, like mononormative model of relationships.

[349] And I think the big questions that people have are how do we do this?

[350] You know, how do we navigate this?

[351] How do we manage it?

[352] And that's about working out what the rules are for those people, you know, how do they, hold, what are the rules for them that work for them?

[353] How do they understand the rules, you know, rules around things like disclosure, rules around things like how much detail do we go into?

[354] How do we manage this?

[355] But actually, communication for lots of those relationships is really good because they have to be really good in order to manage that different style of being or, you know, also just the practicalities of there being more than two partners in a relationship.

[356] I've always wondered if it would cause a lot more problems, but I guess you've answered it there.

[357] It's about setting clear rules and having effective communication.

[358] My next question again, which I was really excited to ask you, was like, what's the, and this is a super hard question.

[359] So just, yeah, yeah.

[360] What are the, what are the things that men don't, typically don't understand about women when it comes to sex and vice versa?

[361] Oh.

[362] It's a hard question, isn't it?

[363] It is a hard question.

[364] I was just thinking, I was thinking, because I know men are super naive and we watch, we were exposed to a certain type of media and content.

[365] And then we like rush into the bedroom thinking that I don't know our partners want to be I don't know tied up or dominated or whatever else and then from the other perspective you know when you speak to a woman about sex and what she's looking for there's obviously she's experienced a certain type of media but she also is I think typically again with being super binary here typically a woman is has a slightly different expectation from the man from my experiences anyway I think part of the problem in that is that binary approach is that if there's something that I would want everyone to understand is that we can be different but we are also so similar and like this idea about like performance when it comes to sex is hugely detrimental to everyone and again probably like what is one of the biggest things I want everyone to think about is the assumptions, you know, what are the assumptions that we're making about each other based on gender norms and expectations, based on historical messages, how do we break away from them?

[366] And it might be that that's a conversation between those two people, and that's the best way of doing it.

[367] But also there's, you know, all of these, kind of, so many of these ideas about sex are so steeped in history, but we've never asked them, we've never had them challenge.

[368] So an assumption, being, you know, a really historical message that we hear all the time.

[369] I mean, something I hear all the time when I'm talking to people about, like, myths, you know, what are the sexual myths or what are the sexual rules that you think are kind of applicable to your sex life?

[370] A really common one is that men initiate sex, like men are the initiators of the sex and women are the responders.

[371] Now, how does that fit people then when they're like, oh, but that's not how it works for us?

[372] Or, you know, a, for example, male partner, if we're talking about heterosexual, you know, heterosexual relationships who is less confident and a female partner who is more confident and so actually it's the other way around but then they're thinking okay but this isn't what we think everyone else is doing so maybe there's a problem here when there isn't because that's what's working for them and do you see big distinctions between the issues that heterosexual and and homosexual relationships have?

[373] I think that what same -sex relationships don't battle with as much is the gender assumptions, the gender narratives, the gender norms, that kind of idea of like men do this and women do this.

[374] But, you know, there are also, kind of every relationship struggles in some way with that dynamic of we're two individuals, how do we work on our, differences and our similarities together that interrelational part which is what happens between us you know how what are our triggers what how do we kind of what makes us both anxious or what makes us both feel secure or what makes us both feel closer and also navigating that you know that that's really the battle that all couples have again super naive question but I'm sure it's one of the most popular questions you get asked which is like is there a healthy amount of time for a couple to have sex per week or whatever super naive question but I'm sure it's one of the most popular questions you get asked which is like is there a healthy amount of times for a couple to have sex per week or whatever and you know one would assume that changes over time right because I think I know just judging by my relationships it starts we start like fucking energize bunny rabbits and then you know life happens but is there you know and I hate these questions because again they're so like unnuanced and so like narrow but is there an average amount of times that couples you would you know if you had to answer this question and not swerve it in this for the sake of nuance what would the answer be i would like to know what you think the answer is i think again context like i'm going to go into nuance here but context matters like if you live on opposite sides of the world then obviously there's there's barriers but if you're living in the same if you're cohabiting living in the same house you're living in the same house I think like at least twice a week, you know, once in the weekend, Tuesday, I don't know.

[375] But where, okay, so where do you think that idea of twice a week would come from?

[376] Just looking at my schedule.

[377] Wait, isn't it?

[378] I'm like, where can I find time?

[379] Probably like once in the week.

[380] And on the weekends, I have a bit more time.

[381] So, yeah, but I mean, it obviously changes every.

[382] time.

[383] I feel like I'd probably have sex every night, but if I, you know, but just energy levels and yeah, what's the answer then?

[384] So someone I interviewed talked about the amount of sex we have as a red herring.

[385] So the kind of regularity of sex doesn't determine like the satisfaction of it or the kind of pleasure of it or the enjoyment of it.

[386] And I think what it feels like we've been trying to do is find an objective way of measuring sex.

[387] So it's this idea of, okay, well, we're all trying to find the answer to sex, like how to be good at sex, like what that looks like, how to know where we pitch ourselves against everyone else.

[388] And regularity is one of the only kind of objective measures we have of that.

[389] So it's the one that we kind of will lean into or we want to know the answer to.

[390] Whereas what I would say is, I don't think we do have an idea of, I don't know what kind of modern, like, surveys say.

[391] There's a big survey that's done kind of every few years, but I haven't actually seen the results of that one yet, but...

[392] What about the monkeys?

[393] How often are they doing?

[394] I haven't asked them.

[395] What are the orangutangans doing?

[396] I haven't got a clue.

[397] Okay, I need to find out.

[398] Maybe your next guest.

[399] Yeah, I was like a zoologist or something.

[400] But I think that the thing is, is working out, again, and what we're looking for is a measure of, like how we're doing by knowing that answer.

[401] And I think one of the things is for some couples, it might be, as you said, they might kind of work in different countries.

[402] It might be every time they see each other, they have great sex and that's enough.

[403] That works for them.

[404] For other couples, it might be we have sex once a month and it's really good.

[405] You know, we're both enjoying ourselves and we feel like I need to met.

[406] Great.

[407] For other people, it might be once a week.

[408] you know, I think it's about determining, like, what your normal is or what is right for you.

[409] But again, the kind of worries and anxieties and stresses come from, A, we're not having enough sex.

[410] Why is that?

[411] You know, is it because my partner is no longer attracted to me?

[412] That tends to be the first thing people go to.

[413] And what's going on?

[414] Is it because our relationship isn't working?

[415] Is it when we don't have a clear kind of obvious answer, like we've just had a baby, for example?

[416] so there's the assumptions that go with that why has sex changed what's going on but also the well everyone else is having sex once a week and we're having sex once a month so that we must have a problem there must be something wrong with us speaking of my ex -girlfriends I feel like I've slightly thrown several of them under the bus but I had another relationship this goes back a little bit further where I just like fell in love with this girl in every other aspect, non -sexual, so intellectually in every other way.

[417] And then when it came time to have sex, which was actually quite a little bit later than it usually isn't the relationships that I have, like three, four months into knowing this person, there was, I don't know how to say this, because it just sounds, I'll just go for it.

[418] The, the, I tend to think, especially when it comes to like vaginal penetration that it's like a hand in a glove and the hand in the glove didn't match and again I genuinely thought that I could have spent the rest of my life with this person but I saw that as a like insurmountable object like my penis didn't suit her vagina and I thought we can't change it can't change this um yeah Is this something that people come to you about often?

[419] They talk about like the practicalities.

[420] The practicalities, like the hand in the glove.

[421] Yeah, I think it is.

[422] And, you know, there are, for example, like conditions that mean that people can't have sex for numerous reasons.

[423] So, like, sexual dysfunctions or, you know, particularly for women, there is a condition called vaginismus, which is where there's an involuntary contracting of the PC muscles, the pelvic floor muscles where they're unable to have sex.

[424] and that we think affects about one in 500 women and no way am I saying that's necessarily what was happening here.

[425] But, you know, we also know that it's about how we work together as couples, how we work with bodies, what would make things more helpful, how we can look for kind of practical advice.

[426] But it's about understanding, like, okay, how do we help ourselves here rather than, again, that assumption of like something's going wrong.

[427] Because it made me believe in this, like, idea of, like, there's a physical compatibility to sex as well, not just like a desire compatibility or like an experimentation compatibility, but there's like a physical compatibility as well to having like good sex where you can just like physically not be compatible.

[428] But I suppose it's been aware how do you, if you want to like explore working around a roadblock, how do you kind of build your sexual so hard to talk about I could never bring my I could talk about the libido issue with my partner but I could never tell that partner that I wasn't that I was basically turned off by our lack of physical compatibility I could never mention it so I ended up the end the relationships I tried multiple times to like fix it in various ways and I just couldn't bring myself to talk about it because I didn't want to hurt the person I didn't want to say something that might hurt them and stay with them forever.

[429] So I ended the relationship on the grounds of something else, but that was fundamentally the issue.

[430] I've actually only had two relationships in my life, but like sexual partners in my life that ended purely because of that.

[431] But yeah.

[432] And I think it's so hard again, isn't it?

[433] Because we just don't know how to tackle these topics.

[434] As you say, like, how do we manage talking about something or exploring something that we just have no idea where even to start.

[435] And I don't want to offend the person, which is it must be a huge thing in the work that you do, like not wanting to offend your partner because, as you said, it's such a sensitive topic.

[436] And I don't know how I could have approached that situation without offending the person.

[437] And I think that it's the fear of judgment, like the fear of offending, the fear of hurting our partner, is the fear of us not being able to go back once we kind of, it feels a bit like Pandora's box for some people But this idea of talking about sex in a relationship, you know, like, if I open this up, like, how do we close it?

[438] Or I think a lot of people have the fear of if I open this up, then every time we have sex, we're both going to be thinking about this or we're both going to be completely in our heads.

[439] And what we know is when we're completely in our heads when it comes to sex, we're not experiencing what's going on in our bodies.

[440] And that is interrupting arousal, you know, the body's process of us kind of enjoying, you know, our body kind of work.

[441] working with us, the kind of sexual arousal process.

[442] And so, you know, our thoughts are as distracting is they're kind of being like someone in the room that's not the person who having sex with or, you know, someone actually like walking in or kind of saying all of that stuff to us.

[443] Just because our thoughts are not a physically represented being doesn't mean they're not as distracting as something else.

[444] And you're completely right because from then on I didn't say anything, but I carried on trying.

[445] I thought maybe, you know, one bad experience, whatever, we'll try again, we'll try again.

[446] And it got to the point where I was, I was almost avoiding sex because I knew that it was going to be an issue and I started to overthink.

[447] And as a guy, overthinking is not what you want to be doing when you're trying to maintain yourself.

[448] So I, so I started having issues keeping my erection up because I was just, I was walking in, I was getting in the bed, thinking, oh my God, here we fucking go again.

[449] And I've got a, you know, like, are you going to be able to get it up?

[450] Because you really don't enjoy this.

[451] And all of that just became too much.

[452] I couldn't tell her because I didn't want to insult her.

[453] And I was starting to have problems like, you know, being aroused because it was a big issue.

[454] And you're right, it's a snowball.

[455] And performance anxiety is one of the key things that I work with with men.

[456] Because where there is not a physical kind of indicator or reason for, for why they might be struggling, for example, with erections.

[457] Because getting into your head too much, again, creates a speed bump for sexual arousal.

[458] Because when you're feeling stressed or you're feeling anxious, you're in that kind of fight, flight, freeze state.

[459] Your body is preparing not for you to kind of lie down and have sex and be comfortable and relaxed, but it's preparing for that kind of threat response.

[460] and that is not compatible with being sexual in that moment.

[461] So in a way, your body's kind of working against you.

[462] And so what you have to do then is work on this kind of like frontal bit of your brain, you know, your thoughts, like focusing on that in order to, in a way, like, reprogram.

[463] Because sex has become not fun, exciting, pleasurable, connecting.

[464] It's become anxiety provoking, stressful, fearful, you know, don't want to be here.

[465] would rather avoid.

[466] So in a way, the way I describe it a lot as the meaning of sex has changed that the way we relate to it has changed.

[467] How does one give their partner good, positive, constructive feedback?

[468] Do you know what I mean?

[469] Because I'm sure there's, I was thinking then, I'm sure there's so many people listening to this that are in relationships that would like their sex to be slightly different.

[470] And they probably, in the same way that I was anxious about approaching it with my ex -X, sex -ex -ex girlfriend, what is the best way to approach these sensitive self -esteem attached topics with your partner?

[471] Not in the moment when you're having sex.

[472] So not just kind of like in bed like just before because also what you don't want to do is, you know, kind of create like a sense, a further sense of like stress or anxiety like in that sexual space.

[473] So what I always talk to people about is like leading with a positive, you know, like I really love our relationship.

[474] like I'm loving what we're doing but maybe there's something we can work on here or how can we do this better or so leading with the positive you know the affirmation because if someone comes at you and you know we're often really sensitive to criticism also in our intimate relationships and this isn't good enough or you're not doing this or our immediate response is defensive or attacking we're not open to hearing what they have to say we're already like shut down before they've even got there.

[475] So kind of approaching it with that positive framework or like connecting framework or open framework.

[476] And also let's work on this together.

[477] This is a shared venture, something we want to do together.

[478] Some, you know, it's something for us to think about.

[479] Like, how can we go about this?

[480] Because what can also happen is we isolate the problem in one partner when there are two of us there.

[481] I guess, I guess another sort of attached to that would be just telling them what you like as opposed to what you don't like.

[482] So it's just like the same outcome but different framing.

[483] So it's like, oh, I like when you blindfold me or I don't like when you don't blind.

[484] You know what I mean?

[485] And just making it, some of my sort of sexual partners that have given me positive feedback in the past have done so by telling me what they like more of.

[486] Because then we can lean into that.

[487] Yeah, exactly.

[488] And we all like to be told we're doing a good job.

[489] We all like to be affirmed.

[490] We all like to be.

[491] Especially in sex.

[492] Mm -hmm.

[493] because we don't have a reference point of, you know, are we doing a good job and we feel, you know, if we think we are bad at sex, that's really personal, isn't it?

[494] It's brutal.

[495] You know, that's really a difficult thing to hold on to.

[496] And then we go into our next sexual situation thinking, I'm bad at this.

[497] And actually, what that's more likely to do is make us struggle.

[498] And actually when people are relaxed and comfortable and calm in those situations, they're able to connect with the other person more and we're kind of able to I suppose follow the pleasure path a bit more or kind of affirm each other a bit more and understand that actually if someone says can you touch me here it's not because you weren't doing it the right way it's just because that might be their preference but we cannot be mind readers we cannot know what our partner's like until we communicate that with them that's such a fascinating thing as well that we never know if we're good at sex we're just like kind of trusting our part and especially because you see all these movies and we read these magazines about people faking orgasms as a guy I swear to God the first couple of times someone said that I was like good and better whatever I thought you're full of shit I thought you say this to everybody and then like I still I still and I've heard that a few times but whatever but I still don't know and that's crazy that like with everything else you have a fairly accurate gauge of whether you're good at it but because we've never seen like pretty much shit really We've never, like, seen anyone doing it in real life or really got to observe it outside of the fakeness of porn.

[499] And you don't know how it feels for the other person and sometimes you don't even know if they're faking it or if it's real.

[500] You can't, well, for me, in my mind, I'm like, kind of float through life assuming you're doing okay until told otherwise.

[501] But it also assumes that, here we go again, good at sex, is a formula that you can apply across the board like everybody every sexual experience is going to be different between those partners in that time in that moment in that context it is not like a universally applicable formula now what we can do is we can kind of kind of good sorry it's best your problem but my ex said I was we know like what we can do do is we can feel more informed.

[502] I consider a big part of my job to be helping people to make informed choices about their sexual wellness and well -being.

[503] So that might be, you know, thinking about the narratives that have shaped how they think about sex, thinking about their current definition of sex, thinking about sex education, how can they feel informed about things like anatomy, things like their body, their preferences, their likes, and the communication bit, how do I then communicate that with a partner and all of that can contribute to better sexual self -confidence and again what we know is like sexual self -confidence is in that person again it's reflected back to them in situations with other people but really it's kind of all about that relationship with self and I know that sounds very therapy and something that all therapists say but it's really true because we put ourselves in those sexual context in those sexual situations for some people they might never struggle with sex they might have kind of muddled through you know like trial and error worked it out and always and be okay and they're satisfied and that's great but for some people they do struggle for some people they have a period of normal sexual functioning and then they start to struggle and it might be that they've never thought about sex really before until they feel like they have to so again there's no kind of one route to all of this and although there are themes for example, in the conversations that I have with people, everyone has their own journey, their own story, their own experiences that have shaped that.

[504] And some of it can start in, you know, the playground, like playground banter about what sex is like.

[505] But at a younger age and we're quite impressionable and that sounds really scary what people are talking about, we can kind of carry that with us and then it presents further down the line or we might have had a negative sexual experience early which means that we then don't want to try again.

[506] And so we hold on to that negative experience because we've had no, in a way, like challenging or corrective or other more positive experiences which can go against those ideas.

[507] We're ever evolving, you know, humans and people and we're changing in every way, you know, mentally, physically.

[508] I think one of the things that has, it's going to be honest, because I think that's just the point.

[509] I think when I'm honest, I think I resonate with more people.

[510] one of the things that I'm slightly concerned about is that at some point in my life I'll fall in love with somebody and the sex will be great and everything and then me or them will change in that we could change in a variety of different ways whether it's our desire but but more so even like I'm we might not be attracted to each other anymore I might you know deteriorate in some form and I wonder how much of an issue that like two people change changing and falling out of attraction with each other is prevalent in the work that you do and the people that, you know, come to you for therapy and for advice.

[511] I think it is.

[512] It's not probably the most prevalent thing I deal with, but also what you're basing that on is an assumption that that's not something that can be worked at.

[513] It's not something that people accept when they are in a relationship with each other or that they, you know, I think it goes back to that relationships moving in stages and phases.

[514] bit as well.

[515] And I think there's, that's that fear of like things not always staying the same, whereas actually what I would say is if we accept that things don't always stay the same, then we can change and work with that and accept it and improve it or adapt.

[516] You know, as humans, we're really, really adaptable.

[517] But we want to feel encouraged in that rather than, I suppose, kind of put off or challenged by the fact that we need to.

[518] In the world we live in now, this is just this incredible like perception of choice i'd say like more so than when my grandparents around i imagine their dating their sort of circle of possible matches extended to like the size of their like street or village didn't have tinder yeah exactly they didn't have tinder or instagram but now in my relationships if like if it's not going well i've got apparently a gazillion people right here that are perfect they're all filtered and i think a cut you know 32 000 of them just like my photo.

[519] So if I lose attraction with my partner in the world we live in now where we've got this huge sort of perceived amount of choice and accessibility, just one swipe.

[520] You know, it must make holding relationships together at times when they hit, you know, rocks more difficult than ever before, no?

[521] Yeah, I think that there are often ideas that like the grass is always greener, but equally we understand that relationships take work.

[522] And I think, you know, we've, we've seen a breakdown of norms.

[523] We've seen that, you know, divorce rates are an all -time high, but it's not the same stigma that it used to be that kind of people changing their models of relationships or changing relationships is not kind of such a big thing.

[524] But also something that I think is important to say is just because a relationship has ended doesn't mean that in itself it wasn't successful.

[525] And I think that's another thing that we need to like to reframe.

[526] You know, people can be in a relationship for 10 years and it ends, that doesn't mean that relationship failed or was a failure.

[527] It might have been for that person at that time.

[528] This is part of the issue in my view with marriage because marriage you say till death do us part but we all know that if there's the only constant is change, we're all going to change.

[529] So how can you honestly make a commitment that you're going to stay with this person?

[530] Why would you want to until death knowing that you're both going to change various ways that are yet to be seen but can you also change together in a positive way you can like i think i think people are moving they can move if you think about it as like two parallel lines they can go they could be slightly tilted one degree to the right which means that in 10 years time they'll be too far apart or they could be slight one degree to the left which means that in 10 years time they'll be closer together um or they could be perfectly straight right so perfectly parallel which means that in 10 years time they'll be the same they'll resonate in the same way they'll be as close you know whatever but you don't know that yet so i think that that's why i've always been slightly let down by the concept of marriage because i think you know you can't predict the future so why would you want to make something like that so final um and i've i think like you know the men in black have you seen men and black oh got a long time ago well they get the pen and they hold it up and if they press the button on the pen basically it raises your memory i sometimes think i think i think if we held that pen up to the world and erased everybody's memory, what are the things that would come back?

[531] Like, science would come back, religion would never come back the same.

[532] We wouldn't come back the same, right?

[533] Science, we would figure all the same things out, the same experiments.

[534] Marriage, I'm like, no, it wouldn't come back the same.

[535] Not in 2021.

[536] I don't think that would come back the same.

[537] I think we'd have a much more bespoke, open, flexible form of marriage that would involve less of the law and would involve less of the church.

[538] And I probably think could be a little bit more effective.

[539] So I guess my question is about marriage.

[540] What do you think about marriage?

[541] I am married.

[542] I am married.

[543] So, okay, well, careful what I say.

[544] We'll cut now.

[545] You know, I think that it's what, what does it offer people?

[546] You know, like, what are people looking for?

[547] And I think for a lot of people, it's security, you know, and it's...

[548] Is that a form of insecurity, though?

[549] Like, I think, I tend to...

[550] I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

[551] Yeah, I do.

[552] Because I think, oh, if you're looking for security from, like, a legal contract, I'm like, then that for me speaks to a little bit of insecurity somewhere else.

[553] But I think it's also about, you know, I suppose marriage has been the norm, right?

[554] Historically, it's always been the norm.

[555] It's always been also considered the gold standard or like what we should kind of aspire to be or aim for.

[556] And I think that again, you know, that to that impact of history, like us doing the things that we've always done.

[557] But it's an institution and a lot of people subscribe to that.

[558] now what we see now is that people can be married multiple times and be happy in every relationship or it be perfect for that stage or for them or for that relationship that people don't need to get married that people can parent and become parents without being married that it's I suppose the biggest representation of commitment that historically we've always had and people now can find other ways to commit to each other you know buying property together that doesn't require it.

[559] So I suppose...

[560] It's probably the biggest commitment.

[561] But it's also about what those people are looking for.

[562] I think that's...

[563] You know, people think I'm really against marriage.

[564] It's actually not the truth.

[565] And my friend's say to me, are Steve's against marriage?

[566] I've listened to his podcast.

[567] I'm like, no, you didn't listen.

[568] What I'm against, what I'm for is a more bespoke, um, tailored approach to how two people come together.

[569] I actually had a friend of mine say to me this week that he and he will will be listening to this podcast for sure.

[570] He said, um, he thinks he can only be with someone for a year at a time.

[571] He says after a year, I just, I don't think I can, you know, the relationship can't go on.

[572] So he's having these continual one year relationships.

[573] And look, I guess the most important macro question is like, are you happy?

[574] Yeah.

[575] And people's happiness is derived in various ways.

[576] I do think, I do think marriage is somewhat.

[577] Do you know what?

[578] I think maybe it's because I tend to have a perspective that conventional solutions aren't always very well equipped to solve new problems and the world we're living in is a very new one we're living longer than ever before we're exposed to different types of information we have much more freedoms than I think our some of our ancestors used to have so maybe the way that humans commit to each other should not involve the law it shouldn't take two years to divorce someone which I think is crazy I think it doesn't have to and I suppose it's about what people are looking for and I suppose as you, you know, you're asking earlier about like multi -partner relationships or like, you know, consensual non -monogamy, it's about us making informed choices about what works for us and our relationships.

[579] And, I mean, there's such a conversation I was having with how much as yesterday is how do we feel more informed?

[580] You know, how do we explore what that might look like in another way?

[581] Because for some people, trying to fit into what they feel they're expected to do might not work for them.

[582] It's a system or a model that doesn't work.

[583] So how do we then start to open up that conversation for ourselves?

[584] But also, we have our fears.

[585] You know, we're humans.

[586] We like to, I suppose, feel that we fit the normal, fit what's expected, or, you know, some of us do at least, that what will other people think for me if I step outside that?

[587] So, as humans we have that balance of like what do I want but also what will other people think yeah which I think is typically quite awful yeah but it isn't it one of the biggest things that drives people in a lot of ways drives them where though like I think I just think in every facet of life it's like your mom wants you to be a doctor but you really want to be a ballet dancer in Costa Rica and it's like you know what's expected of you know you're expected to go get married and then become a doctor but like your intrinsic joy will come from going and being a ballet dancer in Costa and not getting married or whatever and smoking, I don't know, whatever, in the mountains over there.

[588] But, you know, I tend to believe, and this is probably, there's no, like, I don't have a huge scientific basis for this.

[589] I have a couple of, like, philosophical studies I've read, but that people who abandon, like, their true selves or that conform to society's expectations typically have at some point in their life, some kind of moment of realization where they realize that they've not fulfilled themselves.

[590] as they could have.

[591] Isn't this back to that point of like expectation versus reality though?

[592] Yeah, I guess so.

[593] Like the gap between what we expect and then where we kind of find ourselves to be or what we what that looks like.

[594] Because I think again that's that.

[595] And also, you know, it's that idea again, we, I feel like I talk about gaps a lot, but that idea that gap between the person I kind of know myself to be and the person I show everybody else that I am and the bigger that gap the more space for struggles or battles or mental health challenges around that what is and this might just be the title of this video because I because I think it will be so well we'll click bait this part what is the single biggest killer of relationships in the modern age in 2021 in your view if you had to say this one thing is the the single the biggest killer of relationships what we're would it be?

[596] Unrealistic expectations.

[597] One of the big problems, you talked about it earlier, this idea of what we see in the movies, so we're like, oh, that's what it's like.

[598] So then when it's not like that, we're disappointed.

[599] Our partner fails us.

[600] They haven't met our expectations.

[601] They haven't met all of our needs.

[602] You know, we talk about this idea, lots of relationship experts, talk about this idea of how we shouldn't expect one person, our partner.

[603] to meet every single one of our needs, but we do.

[604] And so they're kind of doomed to fail then in that way.

[605] So how do we change that?

[606] How do we start to kind of like open that up?

[607] How do we, you know, we have other relationships in our lives.

[608] We have family.

[609] We have friends.

[610] We have colleagues.

[611] You know, we need to start to think about like how we can do that for ourselves.

[612] And then we work with our partners to create something together.

[613] completely resonate with that and I think most of my relationships fail because the expectation that my partner has on me goes unmet because I am very selfish and I like to work all the time and to think about my stuff all the time and I'm like very self -absorbed and when I have free time I just want to like I don't know do something for me um I've tried over the years to like manage that expectation by making it clear as early as I possibly can that like work is a huge part of my life and I am very selfish.

[614] Selfish sounds like such a negative word, but it means that like I'm so consumed with my passions and the thing.

[615] Yeah, like you could say focused.

[616] I use selfish because it makes it, because I'm trying to take a little bit of blame, I guess.

[617] But I am so consumed with my passions, like I will work all day and then I'll go on YouTube and want to watch something about SpaceX and Elon Musk taking spaceships to Mars and then in the more, you know, I just want to do, and I kind of want them to do their own thing as well.

[618] So I try and very early on lay that expectation down, but it just never seems to work because at the start someone will tell you that they oh they're cool with that they're never cool with that ever i suppose it's about that you know relationships about that balance of independence and dependence and so it's where that balance sits i want independence i want them to be independent me to be independent and will like me in the middle sometimes but yeah i i don't maybe I'm the problem because I think that compromise is important I don't think I compromise very often as much as I should um I went through my life I think pretending that I was just so focused on my work and no one could deal with it but I probably think that I'm also like I think selfish is probably the word and unwilling to compromise and like I think so like the negative version of selfish is also the word where like I prioritize my my needs more than someone else is.

[619] I think that's caused me a lot of problems.

[620] I sit with people on this podcast all the time that's super successful and they'll, they largely struggle in relationships.

[621] Do you think that's because their primary relationship then is with their work?

[622] Yeah, and themselves.

[623] Because it meets, you know, and we see that, right?

[624] We know, people talk about their businesses as their babies, you know, like, that's my first baby or that's my baby.

[625] And I think that, you know, are we, for some people, we get our needs met through, our businesses through our passions through our sport through our careers and for some people they might get enough of their needs for relationships met in those kind of smaller doses or not in those kind of like single intimate or couple or relational relationships but they have that met in other ways across the board or in kind of smaller ways now who are we to pathologize that I suppose difficult I was hoping you'd have all the answers I'm sorry I definitely don't have all the answers but compromise is important right yeah but in any relationship you compromise with people you work with you compromise with friends you compromise with family member like we all we all have to compromise because relationships are however many people there are but you know if we're talking about couples two people who are independent different people trying to work together and they're not going to perfectly fit together or be aligned in every single way.

[626] So how do we navigate that?

[627] When you're running your own business though and you're the CEO, you don't have to compromise as much.

[628] Do you know what I mean?

[629] Things tend to go on your schedule when you know and you get to kind of lay down.

[630] So in your, and then transitioning into your personal life, you have to almost perform the opposite behavior, which is like high patience, listening.

[631] When you're the CEO, you can, you know, condense things how you want and you're leaning into your natural way of working and things are kind of going at your cadence within your how you want things to happen whereas in your personal life that that's maybe where I've struggled whereas I've like I've learned one behavior in my professional life which is about saving time on everything and optimizing everything to be more productive and performance based yeah and I'm like I don't want any sentence to be longer than like it needs to be so then transitioning into my private life where things you know you can shall we go for a walk a fucking walk I'm like What are you doing?

[632] What a waste of towel?

[633] What for?

[634] Like, do you know what I mean?

[635] And I think I've struggled with that transition because the decision -making framework I have that I use at work can't be the same decision.

[636] It's the worst.

[637] And sometimes maybe it seeps over into my personal life.

[638] So they're different.

[639] It's almost like different operating systems.

[640] Exactly.

[641] Exactly.

[642] Two different objectives.

[643] Do you think that, so if I like kind of push that back on to that kind of question of like how relationships work back onto you then do you think that entrepreneurs or people who then kind of go out on their own and do that are more prone to that different way of relating or more that's their more natural style as in do I think they're more likely to say so just to make sure in terms of you were saying like you know as a CEO you're like the person in charge you set the agenda you set the time like it's more you're kind of leading that that in a way that might be a piece of being an entrepreneur is someone who kind of puts their head down and does that yeah and it's also like heavily learnt it's like you learn imagine if you put I don't know they say like you know how diamonds are made that it's like the pressure over a million years or whatever um you get pressured over 10 years and you learn a philosophy for your use of time for how you want things to happen, whatever.

[644] And that becomes part of your character, even if it wasn't when you were, you know, 10 years before, when going through that experience, it makes it part of your character where you're, like, quite impatient, things, you know, typically operate in the way you want them to.

[645] So you learn that personal philosophy because that's what made you successful.

[646] And also that's what's required to succeed.

[647] It's also what's celebrated, right?

[648] Yeah.

[649] And I genuinely think that it's, for me anyway, I mean, of course I've got these crazy hindsight bias, but that's what was required for me to get to where I needed to get to.

[650] But if I want to be successful in my relationships, then it's like all these other things, which is like compromise and patience and doing things for the sake of doing them as opposed to...

[651] Where they're going to get you?

[652] Yeah, with some kind of outcome.

[653] That's what I've struggled with anyway.

[654] But anyway, enough about me. You know a lot of stuff, right?

[655] Questionable.

[656] Yeah, you've learned a lot of stuff.

[657] So how easy do you find it to implement all of this stuff that you know into your own life and your own relationships.

[658] I always, whenever I have like an expert and a specific topic on, I'm always fascinated by their own ability to apply their knowledge in their own lives.

[659] I mean, I think, you know, speaking for myself in this space, like I think we can, I can be a hypocrite.

[660] I think we can all be hypocrites in our own ways.

[661] And, you know, that's because we're also all human.

[662] You know, we all still have our triggers, our anxieties, our defences.

[663] And I try my best.

[664] And I think that, you know, that's the best you can do.

[665] But I think that relationships, there's an acknowledgement that relationships take work and take nurture.

[666] And I think actually when you talk about this stuff all the time, you actually sometimes need to kind of step back and be like, okay, so what am I doing here?

[667] You know, like at home, how do I implement this as a partner, as a parent, as a family member, as a friend?

[668] And it's kind of acknowledging that and being thoughtful of it.

[669] And I think that there's also that idea of like how my best working with or serving the things.

[670] people close to me rather than kind of like everything else, something else to do.

[671] For me, it's about pulling away, I suppose, from being a yes man. You know, there was a stage in my kind of life and career when I said yes to absolutely everything and now you have to be a bit more selected because otherwise then you lose the quality time.

[672] And I think that quality time is an important part and it's actually making sure that is carved out, protected.

[673] So I think for me that's a big part of it.

[674] But yeah, I think not, you know, what is the perfect relationship?

[675] You know, we're all working at everything all the time.

[676] And I don't pretend because I'm someone that works with relationships and sex, I've not to be working at it myself.

[677] I bet all of your friends come to you.

[678] So last night, do you get that a lot?

[679] I think a bit.

[680] But, you know, I think I feel incredibly fortunate that I have a very, you know, emotionally open, emotionally intelligent group of friends.

[681] You know, like I surround myself with the people where we have those open conversations.

[682] We are, able to go to the difficult places.

[683] It is very mutually supportive and none of us pretend to have it all worked out or that it's all perfect.

[684] I think there's kind of a almost like a celebration of like the perfectly imperfectness of it all.

[685] And also putting our hands up and being like, wow, this week is tough or I'm really struggling with this or this is going on.

[686] And I think that there's something in knowing you can pick up the phone and just say that that is hugely hugely important.

[687] Do you ever instruct or advise any of your patients to this is a fucking row question but I just came to my mind to go and get some kind of like training sexual training is that a thing?

[688] I've seen it in like a documentary I think like a place in Amsterdam you can go and they'll teach you how to you know, give someone a hand job or something, I don't know.

[689] No, I think, you know, I think where we're at now, you know, in the world is that there are online platforms kind of creating, I suppose, like more instructional content.

[690] So there's an amazing one that which launched by the Kinsey Institute, which is one of the leading kind of sexuality research institutes in the world.

[691] And it's a platform called OMGS.

[692] And it's basically about helping like instructional videos and interviews about like how to create female orgasm or simulate female pleasure.

[693] Was that website again?

[694] I said a job.

[695] But I think that we are now, you know, with sexual wellness and well -being, becoming such a big important topic, we're seeing that these platforms are coming up, which are to help instruct or to help offer advice.

[696] And that means that the educational content is available to people.

[697] And I recommend lots of that stuff, because if people are feeling informed, they feel more confident and that means that they can have actionable things to work on to build on and that they're more able to be like okay yeah I can I understand how this works now whether this is our bodies or someone else's bodies to a certain extent so that can kind of help set me up for a sexual experience and lastly just to sort of loop around from the from the start what are the if you were to say that they were there were similarities in couples that do enjoy great sexual relationship, just principles, top -line principles.

[698] What are those sort of key distilled top -line principles?

[699] Um, such a big question.

[700] Communication, I think.

[701] Communication, yeah, is like, top of the tree.

[702] And I think, I think it's top of the tree.

[703] And I think it's the one that people don't want to hear because it's less actionable and it's quite scary.

[704] Yeah, exactly.

[705] It's like, in a way, I think talking about it is the hardest thing to do.

[706] And, but it is, you know, any relationship, kind of expert any expert in the sexual kind of well -being health space will say to you that communication is that and then it's like okay but how do I do that and you know we talk about these communication exercises things like kind of speaking from your own position so like I say so there's a place called the Gottman Institute and they have you know done so much research on couples but it's this ownership like my feelings are I'm feeling my perspective is because actually what you're not saying to your partner is you yeah it's not blame it's not blame exactly so i think that the communication part unlike positive communication is a big part of that but it's that break away from assumption it's like clarification or assumption assumption is what trips us up so much of the time because we're mind reading we think we know what our partner's going to say before they say it so we don't even give them a chance yeah that's true well listen thank you so much for your time i feel like um it's been a very enlightening conversation and I appreciate that the fact that you've taken the burden of all of my sexual, every sexually show I've ever had.

[707] It's good to get it out of that.

[708] I feel like this was therapy for me more than anything else, but where can people find you?

[709] And I know you're involved in a bunch of other projects.

[710] I know that you've got a sex toy project, which you're involved in as well.

[711] So where can people find you and reach you?

[712] Yes, so my website is my name, katemoil .com .com.

[713] I host a podcast called the sexual wellness sessions where we have informative but informal conversations about different areas of sexual well -being.

[714] So whether that's desire, sexual functioning, kind of sexual mindset, infertility in sex.

[715] You know, I try and cover kind of specific subjects around like what people might be struggling with.

[716] And then I'm on Instagram at Cape Moil Therapy, but the Sex Toy Project is I'm the UK sex expert for Lilo.

[717] So luxury sex toy brand and they do some amazing, amazing products as well.

[718] And I work with brands kind of creating like sexual kind of wellness focused, I suppose, projects or products.

[719] Yeah.

[720] And I think brands are really trying to get it right.

[721] And I really, really respect that.

[722] I think that's amazing.

[723] So I actually love that work because it feels like it's taking the learning from inside the therapy room and putting it out into the world.

[724] And hopefully then that's creating that social, cultural kind of sex positive shift that I think we all need.

[725] well thank you so much for coming on today it's a real pleasure to speak to and i've been so excited about this conversation for a long time probably because i've been able to unload on my own puzzle issues but because you're someone that really um has a powerful insight on a part of our lives that as you say is taboo and often not talked about enough and that's why i thought it was good to to have this as one of the pages in this podcast's diary so thank you so much and um i'm sure we'll uh well i'll be in touch on my other issues every year i'll be in touch just wanted to say thank you.

[726] Thanks.