75 - Breakfast Wine

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] Bye.

[17] Karen.

[18] Hi.

[19] Is this an ad?

[20] No. Can I talk to you about a food delivery system?

[21] It's called your mouth and it delivers food.

[22] It's called your hand.

[23] It's called your hand.

[24] It's a fork.

[25] And we're advertising that today.

[26] Deliver that shit.

[27] It put in your mouth.

[28] Hi, welcome my favorite murder.

[29] Hi, welcome my favorite murder.

[30] That's Karen.

[31] Hi, that's Karen And that's Georgia And you're, yeah Yes Hi guys Thanks for tuning in Oh, it's a late one tonight It's a late night It's kind of It's a sultry hot Los Angeles night We have to record late Because of my work We've got some mood lighting That's actually not mood It's just lighting It's just a bit of lighting It's just pure lighting We've got an unsolved Mysteries paused on the TV Oh shit I forgot to turn that off It looks like decoration kind of can you get okay so it's paused on like a woman walking through a graveyard she's very 80 she's got feathered hair and like a black flowy dress and she looks very forlorn what she's also her dress is belted and she's got a great waist yeah jealous of she looks amazing and she clearly put on a lot of blue eye shadow before she went out you had to back then it was it was kind of like your way of saying him out here the cars don't run me over yeah like i'm single i'm super sad but I'm also, like, living my life.

[32] Yeah.

[33] You know.

[34] Just because I'm at the cemetery doesn't mean I'm not going to bring it 100.

[35] Right.

[36] I'm not saying they didn't have in the 80s.

[37] They didn't.

[38] I'm not a mess.

[39] I always wonder, like, what would happen if he went back in time, went to the 80s, and then, like, use the sayings from today.

[40] People think you're cool or insane.

[41] Or from Germany.

[42] Right.

[43] Those are the only three choices.

[44] How are you?

[45] I would like to go back to the 80s and just tell myself, just relax a little bit.

[46] it.

[47] Oh my God.

[48] You don't have to talk so much.

[49] Yeah.

[50] I would like to say, stop fucking caring.

[51] Stop caring.

[52] You can't do that though when you're a teen.

[53] No. There's too many chemicals in your brain.

[54] But I was in elementary school and I wish I'd stop caring.

[55] Oh.

[56] I went to a new psychiatrist this week and she did this thing where she like asked me a question, like a half an hour, which I love.

[57] But there were all questions where I had to be like, yeah, I guess I do feel like, like, I had to admit a lot of shit and like I had it she's like and when you were a kid how did I how did you feel and I'm like well I guess I hated myself like I had to be like yeah you delayed all on the line to this woman I just met yeah it's like this nice older one like old nice lady who ignored me completely when I was like well my sex drives kind of down she was just like moving on in the next but like I'm not talking about that wow well she was Armenian too like So I think she was just this, like, kind of proper, nice Armenian woman.

[58] What if she was like, here's the thing, we're going to cure that sex drive.

[59] It's going to be out of you entirely.

[60] You're going to be balls deep and fucking, oh, no, I was thinking the opposite where she was just like, we're going to, that's all we're going to concentrate on.

[61] Oh, she's like, we're saving that for its own day.

[62] Separate sex day.

[63] Yeah.

[64] God, I'd love to hear about that when it happens.

[65] Sex day?

[66] Yeah.

[67] I mean, today's right now a sex day.

[68] Is it?

[69] Oh, you got the cure?

[70] I don't know what that meant I don't either I'm just trying to improv your sex talk here look here's the first thing I need to tell you Stephen and everybody in America okay of course there are Italian Jews I know of course there are Italian Jews we knew that we were kidding I mean I don't I think I was just kind of wondering aloud but man did the Italian Jews come out and drove so let me know that they exist me too and I have to quote oh fuck I don't have her name but someone wrote of course there are Italian Jews I'm one of them think of us as as the pizza bagels of religion and that's just like whoa that was perfect yeah or is that racist well if she's the one saying it and it's her thing doesn't she get to describe herself however she wants and also it's like well you're talking about a bagel which is a Jewish thing you're talking about pizza which is an Italian thing you know traditionally and so it's not like it's how yes it totally makes sense anyways go on it is a logical joke let me backtrack and it's a good joke stephen uh so yeah that's i mean we might need to cut corrections corner out entirely it keeps going this direction the corrections corner is that we're cutting out corrections here's the correction we need to make we need to stop talking about it um no but this was a real real good email that stephen just gave me uh subject line is my dad was john or partner.

[71] So this was, I think, from two episodes ago, John Orr was the arsonist, arson investigator in Glendale, California.

[72] It was Glendale, right?

[73] Yeah.

[74] Okay, so, so here's this email.

[75] Howdy, hey, howdy, hey.

[76] That's the greeting.

[77] So I'm driving to work, and I have been listening to your podcast from the beginning.

[78] I hadn't listened in a few days, and I started off with the mini episode, and you started mentioning John Orr.

[79] My mouth dropped open, and suddenly I was in a car searching for the podcast where you talk about the arsonist, John Orr, and I couldn't believe it.

[80] You were talking about a man who I grew up with, who was my dad's partner at the fire station.

[81] My dad worked for the Glendale Police Department, and the two were paired up so that they would have a police officer and a fireman to investigate possible fires that had been started by arsonists.

[82] They were partners for six to ten years, and we knew John and his family.

[83] The entire time, he had been setting fires right under my dad's nose.

[84] my dad does recall that there were times when my dad was the one who was on call for the weekend in case of any fire any fires were suspicious they were on call most of the time and would race to the scene of the fire and most of the time john would show up saying things like i thought you might need my help my dad would get so annoyed but we know but we now know why he was there my dad and a few of the men with some of the ten people uh With some of the 10 people you spoke of were board members of the CCAI, California Conference of Arson Investigators who attended all of the arson seminars in Fresno, in Monterey, and as a matter of fact, they were once John's peers.

[85] As I was listening to your podcast, I just wanted to scream and say, oh, my gosh, oh my gosh.

[86] And I so badly wish I could have called in that would be.

[87] We had a call -in show.

[88] Yeah.

[89] We could have to do one episode where I have a call -in.

[90] I mean, that's so hilarious.

[91] Just someone's screaming, screaming.

[92] I know that is.

[93] There was so much this entire story.

[94] My dad stopped being his partner before he was caught and arrested.

[95] My dad did have to testify against him and was investigated because John Orr was his partner.

[96] You spoke of impossibly being a psychopath, and I recall my dad telling me different stories about how in different situations, oh, how indifferent he would act towards.

[97] different things.

[98] So I think there's something to that, a definite lack of empathy.

[99] I've never seen the forensic files on his story and I remember when the movie was released.

[100] Of course, no one in my family saw it.

[101] The book you spoke of was really disheartening because the man who wrote it mentions my dad several times because John spoke of my dad.

[102] John and the author were not kind.

[103] The author of the book never once spoke to my dad and most of the book is John's opinion.

[104] He is a psycho and deserves to be locked up in jail for the rest of his life.

[105] I think he is.

[106] Crazy because I never thought that there would be anything that would speak of, that you would speak of that would have anything to do with me at all.

[107] And so you bring up the one story that I could say anything about.

[108] I went to work and told everyone the story.

[109] Still my jaws dropped open.

[110] You left me speechless, rock on with your bad selves and don't play with matches.

[111] That's all hugs from the sexy murderino tea.

[112] Oh my God.

[113] I love it.

[114] That's hilarious.

[115] That's crazy.

[116] I mean, are the fucking chances.

[117] Well, also, I mean, as we now know, pretty much everyone we talk to, everybody is one, basically one step away from a murderer, murderer experience like that.

[118] In my story tonight, there's a murder, you know, involvement.

[119] Really?

[120] Yeah.

[121] Which is like so exciting.

[122] That's very cool.

[123] I wanted to tell you, speaking of one step away and hand -to -mouth consumption.

[124] So you did the Zanku chicken murders a while back.

[125] Yeah.

[126] And the other couple nights ago or a while back, Vince got Zanku chicken.

[127] And we, of course, got extra and saved the fucking amazing garlic sauce that they give you with it.

[128] That's like, fucking known all over the city.

[129] I made a martini with it.

[130] With the garlic sauce?

[131] Clearly, it was after one martini.

[132] How was it?

[133] Huh?

[134] It was good.

[135] I mean, it was gross.

[136] It was good.

[137] gross you know what I mean I'm just trying to picture it was it like floating inside the martini no no no I like I like stirred it up really well so it was like a garlic confused martini oh okay with a fucking garlic stuffed olive with it well that sounds good I drank it was like a dirty martini but with Zanku chicken garlic sauce kind of strong tasting I would imagine good I like garlic because that sauce is I mean you taste it for days after you yeah you belch that for fucking days good for you though just want to let you know I love it Anything else?

[138] Do you have any corrections corners, merch corner?

[139] Show corner?

[140] I don't know.

[141] Show corner, Stephen?

[142] Let's even hold on before Stephen does the merch corner.

[143] I mean, the show corner announcement, which is an exciting announcement.

[144] I just want to bring up the hilarious person who mentioned on Twitter yesterday or today.

[145] Hey, don't you think Stephen kind of sounds like Tina Belcher?

[146] And I could not stop laughing.

[147] And then a barrage of people were sending gifts of Tina Belcher going like, yeah, baby.

[148] Oh, my God.

[149] It was so hilarious.

[150] Let me hear it.

[151] Tell me about it.

[152] It's done.

[153] Okay.

[154] Stephen, I want to hear your, do your normal voice because I want to picture it.

[155] But tell us about the show.

[156] But also talk about butts.

[157] No, yeah, butts all the time.

[158] No accents or anything.

[159] Yeah, I hear it.

[160] I fucking hear it.

[161] I totally fucking hear it.

[162] Sure.

[163] And I can hear it in my head, too.

[164] Creaking, yeah.

[165] You guys are going to Boulder, Colorado.

[166] Yeah.

[167] August 26th.

[168] So we're doing the show in Denver for the High Plains Comedy Festival.

[169] And then the next night we're like, fuck it.

[170] Let's go to fucking Boulder.

[171] We're going to Morg and Mindy's town.

[172] Is that where where from?

[173] Yeah, that's where the opening shot of Morg and Mindy after the opening credits was that shot of the mountain that's right behind the city center.

[174] And I was always fascinated by that when I was a kid.

[175] like it looked like the coolest little city right under a mountain basically i'm excited i'm very excited yeah there's cool it's like it's kind of like austin oh it's really cool and when do we know if there's a pre -sail or any kind of info it'll go on sale the day that episode comes out so today thursday oh cool yay there'll be a link online yay go to the website my favorite murder dot com slash live okay there you go and we're supposed to tease and i feel like it is really fucking fun we're planning a big old tour for like September through December or January?

[176] I think September through February.

[177] Fuck.

[178] It's a big long one and we're coming to lots of cities, lots of people who have said, why weren't you come to my city or I know you hate my city?

[179] I didn't want to tell you at the time.

[180] We're like, we're coming.

[181] Yeah, because we didn't know for sure, but we've gone over it.

[182] There's, it's a lot.

[183] So hopefully some people will be excited that maybe have felt snubbed in the past.

[184] Yeah.

[185] Sorry, Des Moines.

[186] we're still not you're not on list yet but you will do someday no when will you learn to not point out one city that's now it's like the mayor of Des Moines never is it Des Moines or Des Moines Stephen De Moines I bet it's Des Moines Tina put his hand straight up into the air I'm singing the song the one song that I know that brings up the I think it's Des Moines singular yeah yeah I think so too okay uh go to my favorite murder Shirts .com if you want merch Or, you know, do those things.

[187] Man, this is a short fucking intro.

[188] We're getting right into it.

[189] It's a late night.

[190] Let's just do it.

[191] It was a late night.

[192] All right.

[193] This is a skipper's dream show.

[194] Come on.

[195] You don't even have to skip.

[196] Steven, who goes first?

[197] It's you.

[198] Am I right?

[199] Yeah, you've been on it.

[200] Woo!

[201] Oh, I'm sorry.

[202] Am I not good enough?

[203] You're not good enough.

[204] This is the episode where we tell you that.

[205] but this but we're going to do it subtly through me naming who goes first i know it's tough to hear i mean i've always known it's like you're not telling elementary school georgia anything new oh no let her come out i want to speak to 11 year old georgia right now okay tell her to tell that psychiatrist that you want to talk about sex ASAP is that creepy to talk about i feel like i'm my own mom when your mom talks about sex and you're like what i said you by mom jan I went, what?

[206] I'm young.

[207] My mom, being the nurse, she'd always be like, girls, it's natural.

[208] And we'd just be like, ew, you sound like a drag queen.

[209] She sounds like a douche commercial.

[210] It was totally like, a woman's body is with, the chemicals in a woman's body are very special.

[211] Women get, have needs and wants to.

[212] Get me out of this carpool.

[213] When you call it.

[214] The female orgasm.

[215] There's something about the wrist, the female orgasm.

[216] The female orgasm has a little pink boats.

[217] on the side of it's adorable and quiet and it's just easy and it smells like baby powder moving on and then you're going to move on from the sex from the real orgasm that's right the man orgasm and we don't even call it the man orgasm that's right it's just the orgasm but female fries up let's talk about a woman got killed now okay all right okay so the other night I couldn't sleep.

[218] And as always, I click on any fucking article that is about some kind of case or murder or horrible thing that's going to make me not be able to sleep.

[219] Yep.

[220] Which I already can't do.

[221] Right.

[222] So I found one called the 18 creepy murder cases you've never heard of that'll fuck you up on BuzzFeed.

[223] Oh, I read that.

[224] Did you?

[225] Well, I read one that was murder cases that you've never heard before because I always love to read them and be like, I've heard of this.

[226] I was just going to say.

[227] Oh, yeah.

[228] try me I was I always heard of it or like when it's like the craziest like 9 -1 -1 call murders and it's like I'm fucking knew that one it's not that crazy and then you have no what crazy is then you have the assholes in the comments that I was like he forgot this murder and it's like they didn't forget it they didn't fucking put it in because it's not that you know yes so it's almost like no matter what is whoever's coming toward that article is going to be an asshole like we are yes exactly and us leading the pack but shout out because at least half of them, I didn't know.

[229] So this is from 18 creepy murder cases you've never heard of.

[230] That'll fuck you up.

[231] Okay.

[232] I almost did one off of this list.

[233] I swear to God.

[234] And at the last minute, I just didn't do it.

[235] You're like, this one's boring.

[236] But go ahead.

[237] I live for the week we do the same murder.

[238] God damn.

[239] I know.

[240] What happens?

[241] The world explodes.

[242] It's just, it'll be a ton of laughing and then we'll like, I don't know, we'll do something totally different.

[243] And we'll never do the podcast yet.

[244] What if Stephen?

[245] Here it is.

[246] Stephen.

[247] at some point in your job that you are now currently being paid for you write up two murders and you keep them in a file in your big backpack and then if there's a day ever comes yeah where we do the same murder you pull out the two mystery murders and then we have to read those no because I go ahead no just from like zero like you're just like here you go yep yeah you guys are good to go no but I love the idea of us doing the same murder would crack the fuck up we'd freak the fuck out.

[248] Like, how did we both know this?

[249] I guess you're right.

[250] Would just do it simultaneously as opposed to one after the other.

[251] It would just be like, and then it has happened.

[252] Paragraph by paragraph.

[253] I think it'd be so fun.

[254] I think people who don't like our speech patterns would hate us, but I think it'd be really fun.

[255] I do too.

[256] I'm like looking forward to it.

[257] Okay, Stephen, cancel that assignment.

[258] And instead, could you just pre -pre - prepare others?

[259] You know what I want you to do?

[260] I want you to fucking get like one of those, I want you to get like party supplies, like loud making party supplies glitter thing.

[261] And the day that we have the same murder, I want you to fucking shoot glitter at us and blow all of those blow, you know, and like put a party hat on all of us.

[262] And you know what that means, Stephen?

[263] That means since you never know when it could happen, you always have to have a pocket full of glitter and a blower in your other pocket.

[264] Party hats for all of us.

[265] Party hats.

[266] He's reaching in his bag right now.

[267] I wish you guys could see Stephen's backpack.

[268] Oh my God.

[269] It is the biggest backpack I've ever seen.

[270] It's a Jan sport.

[271] I think it's standard sized, but there's something about what's even carries in it or whatever he's doing that it honestly looks like, it looks like a four -year -old baby.

[272] Elvis and Mimi could fit in there.

[273] And it's one of those ones that you see on like the late -night news.

[274] Like, is your kid's backpack screwing up its back?

[275] Turn, tune in it.

[276] 11 to find out.

[277] I love that they would call the kid it.

[278] And screwing up.

[279] That's the news I want to watch.

[280] Scrowing up it's back.

[281] Maybe you should get rid of it.

[282] What a pain in the ass that thing is.

[283] Jesus, going to have back problems now.

[284] Just like you, you fucking asshole.

[285] Why are you reproducing?

[286] Why did you reproduce?

[287] Wow, that's a long segment.

[288] Your weak spine child.

[289] Can we cut that segment a little bit short?

[290] Fine.

[291] No, I mean the news.

[292] No, I know.

[293] Not you.

[294] I was continuing the improv, but I went too real with my character.

[295] And then I always blur the line like that.

[296] I meant like, okay.

[297] We should never you.

[298] We should never you.

[299] Always us.

[300] Always the news.

[301] Always the news character.

[302] always their pro if we took one improv class imagine how annoying we would be imagine how we would heighten and expand yes and and lose so many listeners okay let's play zip zabsop and then we'll start you know like one maybe one third of the fucking listeners understood that yes I don't know I think improv and comedy are taking over the world I think it's required now yeah that if you're 24 you've graduated from college you don't have a job you have to have to take a class at you see you learn well in group settings yeah kind of feel lost and you're like i need i need a circle of dudes to stand in yeah and one woman one token woman to objectify it was really funny it was really funny but she doesn't she's not super hot and doesn't wear skirts you might have to wait to see her for a while yeah so she's like a bro so i just keep doing improv scenes where i have to touch her butt what is happening what character are you now I don't know.

[303] Is it the same news anchor?

[304] That guy's fucked up.

[305] Wow.

[306] Now let's get into murder.

[307] Now let's please.

[308] All right.

[309] So 18 criminal murders, blah, blah, blah.

[310] Thanks, by the feet, because you help me a lot.

[311] Karen, Ardmore, Pennsylvania.

[312] Okay.

[313] This is a really fucked up case that I'd really never heard of.

[314] Okay.

[315] And I was shocked because it's fucking crazy.

[316] So it's, okay.

[317] Early 70s, a woman named Susan Reiner.

[318] a pretty kind of mousy -looking 30 -something -year -old English teacher at Upper Marion Area High School in the Mainline suburbs.

[319] Oh, by the way, this is called the Main Line murders.

[320] God damn it.

[321] That's okay.

[322] It's supposed to open with that.

[323] It's about 20 minutes from Philadelphia.

[324] Susan is married with two children, and she's having an affair.

[325] Yes.

[326] Sorry.

[327] With the chair?

[328] With the chair?

[329] No. Like Clint Eastwood in that speech he gave?

[330] sorry remember how I was screaming at the chair in my psychologist recently she's having an affair with that chair oh my god she's doing role play with a chair and then it got out of hand and she's like I'm gonna fuck this chair yeah got serious she left her husband for the chair Stephen we have to pull all of this out no worry she's not dead yet so it's okay um all right so imagine at a high school just picture the chair of the English department okay Tweed vest.

[331] Tweed vest in the 70s, heavy beard.

[332] Very large beard and maybe some like aviator -shaped glasses that are indoor, outdoor, what do you call those, transition lens glasses.

[333] And Susan herself, there's like not a lot of photos of her, but she's like cute and mouseing.

[334] You can tell she's kind of probably soft -spoken.

[335] And she has these, the like the eyeglasses that are just take up half of her face.

[336] They're like saucers on her face.

[337] Right.

[338] Which like looks cute.

[339] And it's like cool.

[340] And it's very 70s is like maybe just when contact lenses started, when the contact lenses were as big as glasses frame, glasses, lenses anyway.

[341] You just had to cram them in your eyeball.

[342] You were just shoving huge things.

[343] And they're made of glass.

[344] Back when.

[345] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[346] Absolutely.

[347] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[348] Exactly.

[349] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[350] But did you know that they also power?

[351] in -person sales?

[352] That's right.

[353] Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in store, on social media, and beyond.

[354] Give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[355] From accepting payments to managing inventory, they have everything you need to sell in person.

[356] So give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[357] Their sleek, reliable POS hardware takes every major payment method and looks fabulous at the same time.

[358] With Shopify, we have a powerful partner for managing our sales, and if you're a business owner, you can too.

[359] Connect with customers in line and online.

[360] Do retail right with Shopify.

[361] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[362] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[363] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today.

[364] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[365] Goodbye.

[366] Hey, this is exciting.

[367] An all new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[368] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[369] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[370] Who killed Saz?

[371] And were they really after Charles?

[372] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[373] This season, murder hits close to home.

[374] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[375] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[376] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[377] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll.

[378] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, Daveine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[379] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[380] Goodbye.

[381] Is that true?

[382] Can you tell me?

[383] It was when, if it fell out at a party, people could help you find it.

[384] That's how big they were.

[385] I was always proud of myself how good I was at finding my mom's contacts when they...

[386] Such a weird...

[387] That era just is gone.

[388] Okay.

[389] So she's boning her, the chair of the English department.

[390] So you're saying, Mousy, and whatever you're judging on my picture, sounds to me like she's a real go -getter.

[391] Yeah.

[392] I mean, she's not afraid sidling up to the English department chair.

[393] And cheating on her husband.

[394] May I speak to you in my private quarters?

[395] Yeah.

[396] But I think, here's the thing.

[397] I think he's a Ted Bundy type.

[398] This English department chair.

[399] Yeah.

[400] His name, okay.

[401] So then he might have been, sorry, but he might have been going toward her.

[402] then.

[403] Yeah.

[404] Okay.

[405] And she's having an affair.

[406] She has two children.

[407] Um, his name is Bill Bradford.

[408] The guy.

[409] Nope.

[410] His name is Bill Bradfield.

[411] Okay.

[412] His name is Bill Bradfield.

[413] I'm going to call him Bill.

[414] Okay.

[415] Okay.

[416] So Susan is the woman.

[417] Bill's the fucking creep English department head.

[418] And he's super charismatic and charming.

[419] He's described by some of the other teachers as a pseudo intellectual who was quote, full of himself.

[420] Oh.

[421] So he's like a Ted Bundy charming.

[422] He's like 10 years older than her.

[423] She's swept off her feet by him.

[424] And she's just like, probably like, I've never felt.

[425] She's never had a female orgasm until she met him.

[426] I bet you.

[427] First second, I thought that was in the BuzzFeed article.

[428] I was just like, huh?

[429] Wait, what?

[430] Also, if he's a pseudo intellectual, I bet you he carried a pipe around with him.

[431] Pipe, tweed elbow pads.

[432] Some kind of transition lenses.

[433] A heavy cologne.

[434] I bet he put like oil in his beard.

[435] Yeah.

[436] You know, like, cultivated his beard.

[437] Really trimmed it up every morning and he probably had like really expensive whiskey.

[438] Right.

[439] And he had a book of erotic Chinese lithographs that he would invite people over to look at.

[440] Like, how are we so good at this?

[441] I just describing someone.

[442] I feel like we've lived past lives in the 70s and we're really pissed off about what we were subjected to.

[443] Dude.

[444] And I agree.

[445] Enough already with us having to deal with these people.

[446] Enough.

[447] Enough.

[448] All right.

[449] By March 79, Susan leaves, has left her husband, and she tells her friends that Bill, pseudo intellectual, is going to marry her.

[450] They're engaged.

[451] So she's truly in love.

[452] She's madly in love with him, obsessed.

[453] So much so, Karen, that she gives him $25 ,000 when he tells her that he has a crazy great investment opportunity, 12 % gains.

[454] It's only going to be six months, and I need it in cash.

[455] damn Susan okay she gives him 25 ,000 dollars to invest she's two children and back then what was that oh my gosh almost 100 ,000 yeah and her kids Karen is 11 hi Karen hi you're 11 don't you're not 11 you're it's not you Karen's 11 Michael's 10 so she was like two young children she's giving this dude money um and are you ready for this she makes him the beneficiary of her life insurance policy this is not going to go well worth how much do you think a life insurance policy for this woman would be $250 ,000 set over $700 ,000 oh no yeah she cuts her children out of the life insurance policy and she changes her will to make him fill the sole hair hair nope no air to her estate so okay so she's she's getting a number run on her hard she's it sounds like she's pretty naive you You know, it's like a small suburb in Pennsylvania.

[456] She's an English teacher.

[457] She's not...

[458] All the things that I wanted to be real for her are probably not true.

[459] She's like, she's got her...

[460] As my dad likes to say, she got her bell wrong by this guy.

[461] Oh, my God, you're right.

[462] Like, the guy that...

[463] It's that thing where, and it's a really good trick that scumbags use, where it's that thing if, like, they pick out people that they know don't get certain kinds of attention, and then they slather you with that kind of attention.

[464] so that you're kind of like, oh, he's picking me of all people in the world.

[465] Yeah.

[466] I've never felt this way before.

[467] Yeah.

[468] And, I mean, fine, get your bell wrong and shit, but, like, at the cost of your children, your young children.

[469] Don't adjust the will.

[470] No. Don't adjust the will for your sweet English chair side piece.

[471] And she wrote in it, like, um, like, who's the beneficiary?

[472] What's his relation?

[473] Like, my intended husband.

[474] Like, she fucking really thought this guy's going to marry her.

[475] Yeah.

[476] So, she didn't, didn't know that Bill, of course, was living with another woman for years, also a teacher at the same school.

[477] So he's just fucking getting his harem, which they did call it that.

[478] Did she, and she didn't know that at all.

[479] I think, I think he was like, we're roommates.

[480] There's no sexual relation, you know, like I think something like that happened.

[481] Okay.

[482] It's really hard.

[483] This took me a long time, you guys, of course, like all of these crazy, really interesting murders, there's just fucking pieces that you just keep finding.

[484] Yeah.

[485] And there's not a lot of information.

[486] on them.

[487] Okay.

[488] He also had at least two, at least two other girlfriends, one of which was an 18 -year -old former student of his.

[489] So, yeah, yes.

[490] So the $25 ,000 he had said was for investing, had gone into a safe deposit box, put in there by one of his girlfriends, and the term was ending soon, so she was expecting her money soon.

[491] Okay.

[492] What's going to happen?

[493] Bad things.

[494] Yes.

[495] The night of June 22nd, 19, So we're in 1979.

[496] Susan and the kids, I'm Karen and Michael.

[497] They're planning on meeting Bill.

[498] It's like a night of a crazy hailstorm.

[499] A neighbor saw them leaving their house just after 9 p .m. And the neighbor happens to be the aunt of a murderer now.

[500] What?

[501] I duck in, I went into my favorite murder email account, put in the name of this thing and out comes like five emails.

[502] And one of them, the chick was like, you've got to look this fucking email up.

[503] Her name is Gina A. She says that her mom, so Gina wasn't born yet, but her mom was the next door neighbor of this family.

[504] And she and her sister used to babysit Karen and Michael.

[505] And that Gina's great grandmother swore that she heard screaming the night they laughed, which is never confirmed.

[506] But the aunt and the great grandma were the last people to see them leaving the house.

[507] Oh, my God.

[508] Yeah.

[509] Yeah.

[510] So at that point, Susan and her kids vanish.

[511] But then, three days later, thank you, Gina A for writing in, by the way.

[512] Yeah.

[513] Three days later, June 25th, 1979, this is like almost exactly a year ago.

[514] No. Yeah.

[515] Well, not a year ago.

[516] I meant.

[517] Okay.

[518] I know what you meant.

[519] Stephen.

[520] Help us.

[521] I met 30 years ago.

[522] Is that right?

[523] No. Yes.

[524] 30 years ago.

[525] Yes.

[526] No. 30, no. It's 2017.

[527] It'll be 30 in two years.

[528] That's exactly the kind of math I can't do.

[529] Me too, and every other kind of math.

[530] And geometry?

[531] And everything.

[532] Oh, man. I even told my psychiatrist about that yesterday that I just can't do math.

[533] Did you have a math shut down in high school?

[534] I had a math shut down my whole life.

[535] I had to get sent to a hypnotist about because my math got so crazy.

[536] The hypnotist isn't going to help you?

[537] Oh, my mother had some ideas about it.

[538] about the female orgasm and about hypnosis.

[539] Did it help?

[540] She was very, she was a very spiritual.

[541] She was like, New Agey.

[542] A touch New Agey, but then, but from a registered nurse background, you know what I mean?

[543] She's like, I've seen results.

[544] These are the things I've seen results in.

[545] Good for her.

[546] I fucking meant to talk to you about this documentary.

[547] I watched about a cult over the weekend, but I forgot.

[548] Okay.

[549] Next time.

[550] Anywho, hypnotists.

[551] Okay, the kids disappear.

[552] Three days later.

[553] A year ago, June 25th, 1979.

[554] Yep.

[555] A man calls the police about a, quote, sick woman in the trunk of a car of a car in the parking lot of the host inn in Swarda Township, Pennsylvania.

[556] It's about 90 miles from Susan's home and in the trunk of her own car, which was an orange i wrote this down for you an orange plymouth horizon hatchback did you write in which is like such an 80s 70s did you write in one of those a plymouth horizon hatchback i feel like i can see what that is yeah yeah um so she's in the back in the hatchback and her body is found there oh she was nude susan was nude she had been severely beaten she had two black eyes she was bound with a chain so tightly that the chains left bruises on her back and she was killed with an injection of morphine and it had been 24 to 36 hours after the beating in which she had been killed and there was no sign of her children oh yeah so obviously bill a fucking teacher or english guy was the main suspect once the investigators found out about the affair which he had been denying to everyone oh and saying wasn't true And they found out about the money, but he had an alibi for that weekend that she went missing.

[557] He was at the beach in Cape May, New Jersey, with a bunch of other teachers, and they all vouched for his whereabouts.

[558] Yeah, but even if he wasn't nearby in that exact same time, why would she leave you as the beneficiary on her will if you weren't having an affair?

[559] Or if there's no connection to you?

[560] But they were at that point, were like, yeah, he was like, I don't think he ever denied it to the police.

[561] they were going on.

[562] Oh, oh, sorry.

[563] Just around town.

[564] Yeah.

[565] Got it got it.

[566] Just like to the other teachers and stuff.

[567] Got it.

[568] But he was out of town and after a couple years, there's still not enough evidence to charge him with Susan's death and the missing children.

[569] Okay.

[570] But there was enough evidence for prosecutors to charge Bill with theft by deception because of the $25 ,000 she had given him and what turned out to be a bogus investment.

[571] Oh.

[572] So they were like, we know he fucking had something to do with her disappear murder.

[573] We can't charge him for that.

[574] Let's just bring him in for this for now.

[575] So 72 hours before his trial was supposed to begin from his jail cell, Bill files a claim to collect Susan's life insurance money that was left to him.

[576] Sorry, what's this?

[577] There are so many twists and turns in this fucking thing.

[578] He sends a stamped envelope out in a bird's mouth out the jail cell window.

[579] I did read conflict.

[580] things that he was actually not in jail yet, but he was or he wasn't.

[581] But like, what kind of fucking idiot right before this would be like, but you know what you should add on to those charges?

[582] Yeah.

[583] If I just get that money real quick.

[584] I'll be able to plea.

[585] And so the, the jury finds him guilty, obviously.

[586] And in 1981, he sentenced to up to two years in jail for the $25 ,000.

[587] And then during this time, police are also investigating someone else.

[588] So here's, okay let's switch fucking let's go to another fucking weird thing happening okay principal of the high school where Susan and Bill were teaching the principal is Dr. Jay Smith I'm going to call him Principal Smith from now on so we know who he is he's a 50 year old dude and he was known as the quote creepy school principal so this dude's a fucking creep principal Smith absolute creep teachers jokingly called him the Prince of Darkness oh wow that's a joke yeah that is funny joke that's funny what's your nickname oh me oh it's a devil joke the prince of darkness because I'm so lighthearted because I love to be around children and I'm of the devil I have goat eyes and a cape it's a thing of like when you go to a doctor's office and you fill out your thing and it's like what name do you like to be what like do you have a nickname that you want to be called yeah Prince of darkness Marty Marty or Prince of Darkness I don't even think not your dad not I go by Marty.

[589] Okay, but okay.

[590] So this is my favorite fucking thing in the entire world.

[591] Ready for the best quote you've ever heard?

[592] Yes.

[593] So crime writer Joseph Womba wrote a book about the whole case called Echoes in the Darkness, which is like same guy that wrote the John Orr book.

[594] Yeah.

[595] Yes.

[596] This guy, he was a cop and he was like, goodbye, I'm going to go make a ton of money instead.

[597] Yeah.

[598] Yeah.

[599] So he in the book says that quote, Some thought that Jay Smith, the principal, looked like an obscene phone call.

[600] Have you ever heard a better description of someone?

[601] That's fucking genius and amazing.

[602] He looked like an obscene phone call.

[603] So he's like, what?

[604] He's like, I picture like shoulders up around the ears, kind of like wringing his hands, like, greasy hair.

[605] Yeah, big thick glasses.

[606] Oh, man. He looked like an obscene phone call.

[607] That's amazing.

[608] I want to go ahead and.

[609] That was That's beautiful.

[610] Congratulations, Joseph Womba.

[611] Or John?

[612] Joseph.

[613] Yeah.

[614] Okay, so he's known to be eccentric and a weird man, often sitting in his office during school hours, wearing only his underwear, which you could get away with in the fucking 70s.

[615] It's not allowed.

[616] You can't do that.

[617] Mary Lou, can you take these papers?

[618] Principal Smith, you're not allowed to be here anymore.

[619] I'm just hot.

[620] I'm hot.

[621] It's winter.

[622] It's hot in here.

[623] It's the dead of winter, Principal Smith, and it's midnight.

[624] Well, I'm the Prince of Darkness, so I'm just constantly sweating.

[625] And it's midnight.

[626] Why did you call me in?

[627] Why did you call me in from home?

[628] Yeah, because I'm the Prince of Darkness.

[629] Okay, there's rumors around town that Principal Smith had devil worship sex parties and had burned bodies in the school incinerator and very chopped up body parts.

[630] So I guess they were building a school pool at this time.

[631] And so people are like, he's fucking bearing bodies under where they're building the pool, so they'll be hidden forever.

[632] I just have to say that both of those rumors that you just named sound like they came out straight out of the third grade classroom.

[633] Yeah.

[634] It's just like, but what if they're true?

[635] He's cutting up bodies.

[636] He's a, he has occult sex parties.

[637] And I'm like, that's not a thing.

[638] I mean, people fucking swap and bone, but like, yeah, there's no occult.

[639] Like, nobody wants to have an occult sex party.

[640] No. That sounds like a bummer.

[641] What's worse and harder to face is he literally is sitting.

[642] in his underwear during school hours in his office.

[643] Like, that part's true.

[644] So who cares if the others isn't?

[645] You don't need to make up satanic parties when the principal's sitting in his underwear in his office.

[646] Like enough.

[647] Come on.

[648] Like, don't, your parents are going to be like, but that's okay about any of it.

[649] Um, my, mom.

[650] Okay.

[651] So, but Dr. Principal Smith's own kid, Stephanie Hunsberger and her husband, Edward, disappeared in early 1978, like a year before Susan went missing.

[652] Um, they were reportedly heroin addicts.

[653] They fucking disappeared out of nowhere and they were assumed they had left on their own because they were drug addicts, but till they say, they've never been seen again.

[654] Wow.

[655] So people assumed.

[656] They're in the pool too.

[657] Yeah.

[658] Um, so a year before Susan's body is found, principal Smith is caught trying to break into cars in a mall parking lot.

[659] The principal.

[660] What the fuck?

[661] It's trying to break into cars in the mall parking lot.

[662] and on him are four loaded guns as well as silencer made from an oil oil filter a tranquilizing drug and quote a hood with two slits for the eyes no yep what are those called cavit cavit balaclava that's not a balaclava though thank you I can never get that thank you for your input I can never get that fucking word it's you know why it's weird but I I always think of Balenciaga, the designer.

[663] But a hood with two isolates is more zodiac -y.

[664] Yeah.

[665] Because a bottle club sticks to your face as like a ski mask.

[666] And you have an opening for the mount to you, right?

[667] You're right.

[668] And also it's just more devil -worshipy.

[669] Yeah, but how do you breathe through that?

[670] I guess just slowly and you stay calm with your tranquilizer in your pocket and your four fucking guns.

[671] If you're a sociopath, you're not panicking.

[672] Right.

[673] That's right.

[674] All right.

[675] So when his house is searched, police finds Swinger publications.

[676] Ooh.

[677] Beastiality porn and chains and locks.

[678] Oh, that's just a safety thing.

[679] He has a ton of bikes.

[680] He loves bicycling.

[681] You know what?

[682] You're probably right.

[683] Let's go back and exonerate.

[684] Bicycling in a mask.

[685] They didn't say how many bikes they found.

[686] So let's hear the whole story.

[687] Like, don't just, Principal Smith's wife.

[688] as a wife she's like i mean here i'm going to do her voice um well he had a double costume and he had a collection of dildos like that's what mrs principal smith said morin smith morin smith morin you need to face the facts marine this isn't normal have you ever had a female orgasm well this episode's going to be called female orgasm i've heard of them i have heard tell there's are those are um what's it called those are made up those are fictional those are none of my business principal smith she calls him principal smith told me that that's just it's a feminist movement where they trying to get you to have sex principal smith told me wait morin do you call your husband principal smith wait it's what he asked on our wedding night he was in the devil's costume if the devil tells me to do something she's suddenly from the south okay that accent has to get weirder yes as you talk like morin smith out of her mind yeah okay they also have find a fake Brink security badge, which they later, which they tied to a $50 ,000 armed robbery at Sears a year earlier.

[689] So he was using his fake fucking costume and his fucking security badge and guns and fucking holding up Sears for 50 grand.

[690] Like, why does Sears have that much money there?

[691] Uh, the popcorn's amazing.

[692] Okay.

[693] Um, but also maybe he's like, maybe that's why he needed to cool off in his office with no pants on.

[694] He was, like, committing major heists.

[695] Like the one time it happened.

[696] Yeah.

[697] The one time.

[698] Yes.

[699] I'm so hot.

[700] Mary Lou, can you just fix this on your own?

[701] Sorry, I just ran from the bank.

[702] All right.

[703] So he's arrested.

[704] And among his defense witnesses at his trial in 1979, three months before Susan's body is found, is our friend Bill.

[705] Oh, Mr. Elbow Patches.

[706] Yeah.

[707] he gives principal smith an alibi and even back then susan who's still alive at the time three months let's a left to live to live she doubted bill's alibi too she thought he was making it up but principal smith either way is found guilty and given five years but okay he's free on bail while he's waiting sentencing his date in court which he was late to was june 25th 1979 which may i thuck and remind you is the date that susan's body was found and he was late that morning to court because he was calling and saying a sick lady is in a car well oh i don't know but listen go ahead susan was found early that morning at like 5 a .m. in the trunk of the car oh oh but her kids disappeared right and the court date he was late to uh was about 15 minutes from the hotel where her park where the parking lot where her body was found and the police at that moment during his arraignment are removing susan's body from the car Okay, so Patches is in, Patches is on, like, in Connecticut or something, right?

[708] He said he was, he had an alibi being, like, far away.

[709] Yeah.

[710] So he got this guy to do it?

[711] All right, let's keep going.

[712] Okay.

[713] We'll have, we'll, yes.

[714] This will be discussed.

[715] This will be discussed.

[716] Oh, we're going to talk about this.

[717] Oh, this is going to happen.

[718] I don't know why I have to keep on guessing.

[719] I'm sorry.

[720] No, I love it.

[721] This is, it's the best.

[722] It's fun.

[723] It makes me, like, happy.

[724] so guess what else is in the back of the hatchback i'll tell you under susan's body there's a a sex toy and b also a plastic comb with the name of principal smith's army reserve unit no no which i'm guessing you know fucking gross old men like that like grandpaws put their fucking gross greasy combs in the front of their fucking shirt pocket like buttoned down with short sleeve shirt pockets that took off when they were in their offices yeah like you know he bent down into the trunk and it probably fell out of that top shirt pocket and then he put her, you know what I mean?

[725] Totally.

[726] Yes.

[727] The little, but it was a comb that he had his own name, Principal Smith put on.

[728] No, it, I think it was the Army Reserve Unit that he was in.

[729] Oh, oh, just that.

[730] Yeah.

[731] It didn't say Principal Smith's Army Reserve Unit.

[732] Okay, sorry.

[733] I took you totally literally on that.

[734] They probably got it at like a fucking Legioneers Hall party.

[735] Got it.

[736] You know, they passed them out.

[737] Got it.

[738] It was just the one he belonged to his name was not on it.

[739] But if his first name was principal.

[740] That would be great.

[741] Mr. Mr. Principal.

[742] It's Principal Paul Smith.

[743] Mr. Principal Paul Smith.

[744] Then later, a cute little green pin that was a souvenir from a class trip to the Philadelphia Museum of Art that Karen, 11 -year -old Karen, wore the day she disappeared, was found under the front passenger seat of Principal Smith's car.

[745] Oh, no. So almost four years after Susan Reinhart's death, Bill Bradford Patches, is arrested in charge with three murders, even though the kids have never been found, charged with three murders.

[746] And on April 6, 1983, thanks to the help of another English teacher who was a good friend of Bill, who was like a really fucking sweet, wonderful guy and got conned by Bill as well, he felt betrayed and freaked out and told the FBI, and he was a key witness in the trial.

[747] What do you tell him?

[748] It's Mr. Villadas.

[749] He told them that for months before Susan's death, Bill was freaking out because he thought he was telling everyone he thought Principal Smith was going to kill her.

[750] But it was really odd and weird.

[751] And he, like, got a gun to defend her, but never told her about his feelings.

[752] Super weird and convoluted and it makes you go, hmm.

[753] Is he setting up an alibi or is he, like, he's pre -throwing people off?

[754] right but why even bring it up in the first place right because he thinks he's smarter than everyone yes so he's getting all these other people involved in it and sympathetic a sociopath so he knows he can like charm and manipulate people to kind of believe whatever right and then so when she dies he can they're all going to be like well yeah bill knew about this bill knew principal smith was going to kill her this is what he feared all along so this is what happened and bill is right instead of being like bill is fucking creeping us all out he has a gun all right so Mr. Valladis was cool.

[755] In 1986, while in prison for his other conviction of the armed robbery, Principal Smith is convicted of conspiring with Bill to kill the Reinhard family.

[756] So he's convicted as well.

[757] Whoa.

[758] Both men tried to pin the murders on the other, claiming they were set up by the other one.

[759] He's, principal Smith is convicted of three counts of murdering given the death penalty.

[760] Wow.

[761] Cut to six years later.

[762] This isn't ending it.

[763] Okay.

[764] More fucking twist.

[765] I never wanted to end.

[766] I know right.

[767] In 1992, good old 92.

[768] An antique dealer.

[769] Like, this is so what the fuck.

[770] I can't even believe this.

[771] An antique dealer, who you know, it's just like, he's like American Pickers, dudes.

[772] You know, like, quote antique dealer sounds really nice.

[773] You know what?

[774] I'll give you $800 for that propeller.

[775] Yeah.

[776] It's worth $10 ,000.

[777] Well, who's going to buy it for that?

[778] You're a dumb farmer.

[779] You don't know that.

[780] I hate the guy I'm working with.

[781] Have you watched that show?

[782] show, it's the fucking, they hate each other.

[783] Did they fight?

[784] No, but you can like feel it.

[785] They hate each other.

[786] Okay, a quote antique dealer is hired to clean out that the addict belonging to the state detective, like the main state detective that was involved in this case, in the Rainer murders.

[787] The attic?

[788] The attic.

[789] Did I say addict?

[790] God, why do I always do that?

[791] Why do I always do that?

[792] Sorry.

[793] No, I'm glad you to correct me. I just want to make sure that's what, because it's a running, He didn't hire him to clean out his addict.

[794] Some heroin out of it.

[795] We already have addicts in this story.

[796] That's right.

[797] But they've disappeared insanely enough.

[798] And they're not in the attic.

[799] But this is the fact that you're even introducing an antique dealer that is about to clean out an attic.

[800] Dude.

[801] Is my favorite.

[802] Please go.

[803] In the attic, there's a box containing a duplicate of the comb found under Susan.

[804] investigative notes contradicting prosecution testimony and an adhesive quote lifters which I think is like tape that they containing grains of sand and quartz from the bottom of Susan's feet that they never turned over to the defense why?

[805] So I don't understand the duplicate comb but maybe that just I don't understand that part they went and got another one maybe to prove that it wasn't to find it to I don't know yeah but whatever reason they had it.

[806] And then contradictory notes, fine.

[807] But the lifters, okay, Bill said he was at the beach that fucking weekend.

[808] Yes.

[809] And they found sand in courts that could have tested the fucking sand at that Jersey Shore beach.

[810] Why does she have that on her feet?

[811] Yeah.

[812] My feeling is, did she leave that night to confront him?

[813] He was there with his living girlfriend.

[814] He fucking freaks out and kills them.

[815] Yeah.

[816] I mean, she, he doesn't expect it like basically, his little separate lives overlap and she's like you got to tell them now or i'm going to fucking leave you or i'm going to tell them myself or just i'm going to change that will and all the other paperwork because i've made a mistake yeah and you're a scum yeah and he freaks out but the other people at the beach i have no doubt they would have if they had known they would have said something because it was that guy who testified against him his living girlfriend didn't seem like the kind of she ended up uh testifying against him as well like they weren't scumbags who ran on it.

[817] All right.

[818] Principal Smith's defense attorney says that this could have placed the murder in the New Jersey's shore, right?

[819] Which would have helped Principal Smith get off.

[820] So after serving six years on death row, Principal Smith is released in 92.

[821] Even though we don't know he didn't have anything to do with it, she was chained up and he was into chains.

[822] His fucking comb was in the car or what if Bill put it in there on purpose?

[823] Right.

[824] He could have placed it in there.

[825] Yeah, maybe they had more of them.

[826] Right.

[827] Maybe there's a can of those combs.

[828] Because he was saying that Principal Smith's going to kill her.

[829] Hey, look, what happens.

[830] And maybe the fucking pin was put in Principal Smith's car.

[831] Yes.

[832] Fuck, dude.

[833] I'm contradicting my whole.

[834] Well, no, but I mean, if he was telling people that many months beforehand, he was probably collecting things to set him up.

[835] He could have been collecting things to set him up before, and that's very realistic.

[836] Right.

[837] so he's released in 92 because the evidence prosecutors may have exonerated him and through the appeals court he they the appeals court agreed that there was unethical conduct but they also said that quote nothing untrustworthy about smith's conviction for murder so they was like they were like we fucking think he did it but he got an unfair trial and so we have to let him go yeah so they so for some whatever reasons whatever evidence they thought he was they were working together all right along with the box found the 911 tape of the call about susan's body was mistakenly destroyed her body was here's the fucking second time this has happened in very short time accidentally cremated oh wait yeah and the autopsy audio tape was lost until after the trial well that's three things that's too many things yeah one thing maybe Where you're like, oh, that's bad.

[838] Creamate a woman.

[839] Well, you don't accidentally do it.

[840] You don't do you.

[841] I don't think so.

[842] No. I mean, I don't think so.

[843] Like, there's basic paperwork.

[844] You don't just toss a fucking body in the crematorium.

[845] No, but you toss 20 grand toward a person that's running that crematorium and then say, look the other way.

[846] Well, I do what I need to get done.

[847] 20 grand is a lot of money.

[848] Or something.

[849] Yeah, no, no, no. Well, but also just the combination of, because also then the autopsy where the coroner is talking and going, now there's mild abrasions on this and that.

[850] So there's no way to read.

[851] It's like they can't dig her up and give her an autopsy again.

[852] They can't check anything like bite marks or anything that would actually indicate.

[853] Or like DNA.

[854] The Reinhart case becomes the biggest investigation in the history of Pennsylvania state police, In 1987, a miniseries based on the Echoes in the Darkness book comes out, which I could only find 10 minutes of online.

[855] Karen, you would fucking lose your mind if you saw this.

[856] Who is in it?

[857] All right.

[858] I wrote every single person down for you.

[859] I knew you would ask that.

[860] Oh, my God.

[861] It's episode 75.

[862] We finally got in sync.

[863] Yes.

[864] It only took us 74.

[865] All right.

[866] Susan is played by Stocker Channing.

[867] Oh, yes.

[868] I knew you'd love that.

[869] Bill, old Patches Bill, is played by Peter Coyote.

[870] Yes, Peter Coyote.

[871] I don't know him.

[872] He's, yes, you do.

[873] He's the narrator for the Oscars.

[874] Oh.

[875] Coming up next.

[876] He's like, and he's like a very, I think he's from theater mostly, but you've seen things.

[877] He's super low -key.

[878] He looks like Ray Romano.

[879] Is that?

[880] He's like Ray Romano's Artie brother.

[881] Because I watched the 10 minutes, which were so good.

[882] And like, there are so many other condoluted points to this whole story.

[883] that like I couldn't even get to that weren't really part of it but they're I think they're in the miniseries I'm so bum I can't find it you know someone listening has it on cassette their mom recorded it when it came out yeah with the commercials we need you to fucking upload it did you imagine with the commercials sorry what year this came out in 87 the commercials would make me barf I would be so happy it would be well it would be new coke yeah uh would be L .A L .A looks hair gel yes it would be whatever market that the mom recorded it in, the fucking panic news coming up next after this miniseries.

[884] Yes.

[885] Your children's backs are fucked.

[886] That's right.

[887] Give up your children.

[888] Yes.

[889] Okay.

[890] Okay.

[891] Oh, and then Principal Smith is played by Robert Loggia?

[892] Robert Logia.

[893] Logia.

[894] Yes.

[895] Who's he?

[896] You know him.

[897] I won't be able to think of anything offhand.

[898] He is the guy.

[899] He's short.

[900] He has had white hair for most of his career.

[901] and he got a dog's like this he's got a big kind of a big nose he has an Italian feel to him because he's not in the 10 minutes he's not in that one at all he's the cop no he's the fucking principal he's principal Smith yeah that's so good oh my god we have to get our hands on this you know where we can go where we can go where we can go the fucking museum of television ooh where's that we it's it's in Beverly Hills you go there you put you fill out a card you say this is what I want to watch they take it in they have a library of like almost everything that's ever been on TV.

[902] How do I not know this?

[903] Yeah, yeah.

[904] It's right in Beverly Hills.

[905] What about the like one of the last cool movie rental places?

[906] It's next to the new art in Santa Monica on Santa Monica Boulevard.

[907] Cinemania or something.

[908] Josh Fatham worked there for a long time because he loved it.

[909] Yes.

[910] Do you know what I'm talking about?

[911] Yeah.

[912] Cinefile.

[913] Cine file.

[914] No. No, Cinefile is the video family.

[915] I don't remember.

[916] Yeah, we'll go there.

[917] Field trip.

[918] Yep.

[919] They won't have it though.

[920] David, you're driving.

[921] Because that's too TV -ish.

[922] Okay.

[923] I think it's too like obscure.

[924] You're right.

[925] Ooh, you're going to find this.

[926] All right.

[927] Bill dies in prison in 1998.

[928] Principal Smith?

[929] No. Bill fucking Patches.

[930] Patches.

[931] Bill Patches.

[932] Dyes 98.

[933] Okay.

[934] Principal Smith dies a free man. Both maintain their innocence the entire, their entire lives.

[935] They didn't even give us the fucking, like, deathbed confession.

[936] All right.

[937] But you're ready for the.

[938] I've saved the creepiest for the last part because it's the creepiest thing I've ever heard in my fucking life.

[939] And there's a photograph of it online.

[940] Uh -oh.

[941] All right.

[942] So Bill Patches, the fucking creepy lover, dies, his cells being cleaned out and a photograph is found hidden in his belongings.

[943] The photograph depicts a stone marker, looks like a small gothic kind of angel stone kind of marker, resembles a hooded figure worn away kind of the stone is surrounded by fallen leaves with woods in the background so it's the middle of some random woods and that photo alone it was it was they found the cops were like it was processed before in like 86 before he went to prison and some people think it's a photograph of the location of Lil Carol and Michael's graves but investigators sent it out and they've been unable to locate the marker as of yet So it's like hidden in a forest somewhere And he had a fucking photograph of it The entire time he was in prison So he fucking did it He did it and he knows where the fucking bodies are And that's his What's the thing?

[944] We forgot this once before And people were yelling at us.

[945] That's his souvenir His, you know, his serial killer Trinket?

[946] Souvenaire.

[947] Yeah, I think it's souvenir.

[948] Whatever.

[949] Or the thing that they keep.

[950] Then I was thinking like how creepy would it have been if like they'd killed them together and and principal smith had buried the body and he gave it to bill in like a warning like if you fucking tell anyone what happened like everyone will know about the dead kids here's the photograph of where they they are buried because of you or maybe bill didn't want them to die maybe but don't you think like the way those kinds of killers do it they keep the keepsakes momento it's about they love that thing looking at it's a positive Yeah, if it was a threat, it wouldn't be as good.

[951] Like, he had to sneak it into prison.

[952] It's probably in one of his books, in his bookshelf or something like that.

[953] Do you think that two people did it?

[954] I think that only one of these creepy men did it.

[955] I think it sounds like they knew they were in on something together.

[956] They so say it was some weird sex ring that they were involved in.

[957] Or there was a lot of money to be split up between them.

[958] Who had the money?

[959] Well, Bill was going to get over $700 ,000 in life insurance money.

[960] Okay, right.

[961] So, all right.

[962] So say they were in a sex ring.

[963] Something where they both had information on each other.

[964] Then it's like, Patches is like, I'll give you $50 ,000 if you, I have to set this thing.

[965] And this is like, it's almost like a stranger's on a train.

[966] Yeah.

[967] If you take care of these bodies, I can be out of town.

[968] There will be no connection.

[969] One of those kind of, but it's a bad plan because it's like, yeah, but I'll work at the same school.

[970] I think that Bill, or I mean, sorry, I think that Principal Smith almost seems too obvious because he's a fucking, his children disappear to his heroin addict daughter and he's robbing banks and shit.

[971] It's almost like, why would you also do these other things?

[972] Or is it because you think you can get away with that shit, which you almost did?

[973] Right.

[974] I mean, the robbing the bank thing is insanity because usually if you're a bank robber, you're not going to then have a double life as a high school principal.

[975] it's like that's so fascinating and the fact that he owns all kinds of weird sex stuff yeah I mean that is fucking insane yeah so that's the mainline murders aka the ryan art murders and it was sorry that was uh Pennsylvania yeah wow I know is that how have we never heard of that I've never heard I feel like when you said the thing about the little girls um museum pin being under the thing.

[976] That kind of made me go a little something.

[977] Dang, but I would have remembered all that other crazy stuff.

[978] Yeah.

[979] I've never heard of so many weird fucking things and one, one simple murder about insurance money.

[980] Right.

[981] Never heard so many crazy things going on.

[982] Well, also, if so she leaves her house with her kids and gets into the car.

[983] Sounds like it was in a hurry in the hailstorm, but I only saw that in like one thing.

[984] Okay.

[985] Because also, it was late at night.

[986] And also, if there's a hail storm, that mean he went to the beach during hail like during the winter he went to new jersey which I think I think the beach I like looked it up on a map was like four hours away but I mean yeah I know why did he pick that yeah if it's winter time why you go skiing totally what are you doing like he planned the trip I want to know like did they go there often did they ever do that before yeah like clearly there's this thing of like your spouse or your loved one gets killed and and you happen to be out of town on a vacation, it's like you can't have a convenient alibi and expect that to be your only, the only thing they're looking to.

[987] Yeah.

[988] Well, and also because you're, the alibi is about killing your secret lover while you're on vacation with your other secret lover.

[989] And then there's other secret lovers.

[990] Like all that, there's so much going on.

[991] Without talking about Principal Smith and his underwear.

[992] If we don't even get into that, There's so much going on.

[993] We'll have a whole episode.

[994] The story we do together is Principal Smith is an underwear.

[995] It's underwear.

[996] But I'm telling you, that final moment of the picture, them finding the picture.

[997] And you can never see it online.

[998] Okay.

[999] Just put in mainline murders and you'll see it.

[1000] How can somebody on Reddit haven't found out exactly where that is yet?

[1001] No shit.

[1002] I mean, you would just think that people in Pennsylvania would just be combing the fucking forest.

[1003] Or on the way from.

[1004] Pennsylvania to New Jersey where the beach the beach place yeah like somewhere along that route so if someone go find it and like then we'll fucking you guys if murderinos solve this I don't even mean us but if like some murderinos solve this and find the bodies it'll be go out there go forth and dig and I mean this was in 1986 though so it's probably not there anymore But if it's a stone marker, and also so creepy, a close to figure.

[1005] Also, if you find the stone marker, if you find any stalker Channing made for TV movie about murder, whether it's this one or another, I'm interested in watching it.

[1006] Email, my favorite murder at gmail .com, putting the title, stalker Channing, and the subject line, stalker Channing, or found the dead children.

[1007] Yes.

[1008] It's just so sad that she put them, that she made these decisions out of her naivety and yet she's a victim, obviously, but like these kids have no choice in any of it.

[1009] If she was getting the full sociopath, psychopath, psychopath, hypnosis deal where it's like, you know, like Ricky Tiki Tavi when that snake goes up and you can't stop staring at the eyes.

[1010] It's that thing where she walked away from.

[1011] a whole life to to be with this man who was a complete criminal and creepo and was turning it over entirely i mean there's that's what i would like to know about and see up close because there's a story there and she probably was a smart woman yeah i don't know i mean that's like one little detail i didn't say that really made me sad was that when he um when he went to court for the $25 ,000, like, from stealing it from her, um, Susan's ex -husband, like, went to fight against him.

[1012] So even after they divorced, he was like, fuck this guy.

[1013] Yes.

[1014] You know, she cheated on me, but this guy is a fucking creep in a piece of shit.

[1015] Yeah.

[1016] Like, not even trying to get the money himself.

[1017] He's just like, she's a con man that, like, hurt the woman I love.

[1018] She was, he was still fighting for her and it just made me so sad.

[1019] That it's, the whole thing is incredibly sad.

[1020] also just remember in the 70s like women it's not the parenting situation was so different in that way where it was like having people had affairs or you know made these kind of it was the me generation too where it was like I'm gonna you know I started out as a housewife in the 60s and that was all fine I gotta have a chance to yeah why can't I have a life and that and I'm sure he played out on that and it was I'm sure she was trying to balance all of that I don't I hope I don't sound like I'm victim blaming it's just no no I just don't want to forget this to sweet and if you see if you if you if you if you Google it you'll see their photos and they're just like these sweet baby angels who just like fuck who knows where they went they fucking disappeared and they never even got at you know funeral from the grandparents and their dad it's just it's so sad it's horrible yeah so yeah mainline murders wow yeah well well done thank you that was crazy thank you I know right mine's a little more um well mine's mine's one that you've seen now that I'm working again I'm doing those ones where I'm like what do I know really well because I've seen it on every true crime show everyone loves those it's so fun to like recognize one and be like yes tell me about it so this is one everyone knows which is the murder of spider savage I'm sorry what the murder of spider savage he is a famous um downhill skier dude I don't know this.

[1021] Are you serious?

[1022] Wait.

[1023] So this is taken, there's a power privilege and justice hosted by Dominic Dunn, one of the greatest true crime series ever because Dominic Dunn, the author, so good.

[1024] Sits there staring into camera doing interstitial narration, and he looks like the most livid individual of all time.

[1025] It's almost like he's blaming you, he's telling you what you did wrong.

[1026] Yes.

[1027] it's he's he's angry at the justicism he's angry at injustice in general and he's just disgusted but at the same time he loves like beverly hills yeah like he's a bit of a status guy or he's a bit of because he was a famous author right so he has a little bit of like i was at that party and i saw like yeah he's a firsthand thing and a lot of these stories but it's not um frivolous he's very serious and he's the one whose daughter was murdered by her ex -boyfriend.

[1028] Right.

[1029] Which, like, did we do that, Dominique Dun?

[1030] Yes.

[1031] We did her murderer.

[1032] Yes.

[1033] So basically he has, he was, like, he was played by, I think.

[1034] Oh, it was so good.

[1035] Nathan Lane played him in the O .J. Ryan Murphy O .J. show.

[1036] Yes.

[1037] So brilliantly, because he was there for the whole OJ thing.

[1038] Dude.

[1039] Yeah, he's, and I think he's mostly a Vanity Fair author writer.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] I'm not sure.

[1042] He's a very famous, like, true crime writer and writer.

[1043] Bad -ass motherfucker.

[1044] So if you, I think there's a, I mean, I was able to watch power privilege and justice on YouTube, although everyone had the same incredibly deep voice.

[1045] So I think that's the way they got away with, like, the last one I tried to watch where the screen was diagonal and it was, you know, it was slightly altered so that you could watch it.

[1046] This one, it was like they basically slightly altered everyone's voice.

[1047] so it sounds like everyone was in the witness protection program, but they weren't being, they weren't in the dark.

[1048] Yeah.

[1049] So anyway.

[1050] Got it.

[1051] If you can.

[1052] So far, I don't remember this one.

[1053] So let's fucking have that.

[1054] And I'm excited that.

[1055] Okay, good.

[1056] All right.

[1057] So roughly around the same time a year ago, Sunday, March 21st, 1976, Vladimir Peter Spider -Savich, a 31 -year -old champion alpine ski racer, returned home from a training session to Starwood, a gated community in the Ritzie Resort Town of Aspen, Colorado.

[1058] Oh, I also got some of this information from a website called shit.

[1059] Shit.

[1060] I didn't write it down.

[1061] It was .com.

[1062] Don't go to that.

[1063] Please don't fucking go to that.

[1064] We can't be responsible.

[1065] No, it was called Snowblitzed or Snowbrained or so.

[1066] I'll figure it out and tell you guys.

[1067] But it was, it's basically like a skier's website.

[1068] Okay.

[1069] Okay.

[1070] So, um, he comes back, uh, to his home in a gated community called Starwood in Aspen.

[1071] So it's like, Aspen, Colorado, as most people know, is an incredibly rich, white ski resort, kind of like one percent or town.

[1072] Um, and this guy was kind of the star of that town.

[1073] So he within this rich, ritsy place lived in a gated, community.

[1074] Oh, because he's like, I'm scared of all you, not rich people.

[1075] I need a gate.

[1076] I'm scared of you people that only make $600 ,000 a year.

[1077] So, yeah, that's like the people who live, they work in Beverly Hills, but they live in Bel Air.

[1078] Right.

[1079] Oh, it must be nice.

[1080] Okay, so he was, he was stopping home at his home and Starwood to change because he had been skiing and he'd gone to a party.

[1081] He was going to go home and take a shower because he was, later on he planned to meet his skiing coach for dinner.

[1082] The chief police, who is in this episode of Power Privilege and Justice, is talking about how he was in his police cruiser.

[1083] He hears a call come out over the radio that there's been a shooting at Starwood.

[1084] So he knows, you know, he immediately races over.

[1085] Yeah, because he's like, these people pay more money to the police department.

[1086] No, Georgia.

[1087] I better check there quick.

[1088] God damn it.

[1089] Well, but it is kind of that way.

[1090] this is there's this kind of tower if something happens you know nothing happens bad there probably exactly so if anything has someone shoots a gun straight up into the air they're like we got to we got to process this immediately and it is a little bit of like shadows of john benet yeah in that way where the police don't have it's like of course they obviously do technically have this jurisdiction but rich people kind of do what they want they lawyer up they fly places on their private jets and like the police are just have to kind of do their best.

[1091] They're public servants.

[1092] So these people who make $800 ,000 a year.

[1093] Their paycheck is paid with the taxes that those people pay.

[1094] Yeah.

[1095] So when they arrive, they go to, they find that they're arriving at the home of Spider -Savich, who lives there with his living girlfriend of four years, singer -actress, Claudine Lange.

[1096] I have never heard of these people.

[1097] Are you serious?

[1098] Never heard of this one.

[1099] definitely seen this forensic file several times, and I've seen this power of privilege and justice at least once.

[1100] I fucking miss this one.

[1101] It's a bit of a class.

[1102] I'm excited.

[1103] Um, so they find Claudine slumped in the hallway crying.

[1104] Oh no. And then they walk back to the bathroom, uh, off the master bedroom and they find spider who's been shot in the abdomen and bleeding out on the bathroom floor.

[1105] Um, shot once.

[1106] Uh, already lost a ton of blood and finally the ambulance arrives.

[1107] Claudine, begs the police to let her ride along in the ambulance with him, and they let her, which I think these days, you know, this is the late 70s.

[1108] These days it'd be like, no, no, no, you're the only person on the scene.

[1109] Unless it's a kid, probably.

[1110] Right.

[1111] But even then, if you're the only person on the scene, it's like, you've got to answer some questions, you don't just get to do whatever you want.

[1112] Yes.

[1113] So they find the gun, which is an antique luger in the bathroom.

[1114] Before they get a chance to thoroughly examine the house, they get a call from the hospital reporting that Spider -Savitch has died on the way to the hospital.

[1115] So the district attorney goes to the hospital, finds Claudine, and he starts to question her about what happened at the house that night.

[1116] Can I just say it's a really interesting thing, and it's almost smart when people who kill someone, They don't die until they're in the hospital because then they have to trample the scene.

[1117] They have to put their hands all over this person's dying body to try to resuscitate them.

[1118] They get them out of there immediately so they don't see how they fall.

[1119] They don't see details that they would see if the person was already dead when they went into the scene.

[1120] That's right.

[1121] You know what I mean?

[1122] They're still alive.

[1123] Yeah.

[1124] It's like almost.

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] It's almost horribly better.

[1127] It's, it's, yeah.

[1128] As opposed to freeze this, tape it.

[1129] Everybody stay away.

[1130] The body's dead.

[1131] have time to don't, to not touch anything.

[1132] Okay, right.

[1133] Okay.

[1134] So the district attorney finds Claudine and he questions her and she is anxious to explain that Spider was going out of town.

[1135] And so he was actually showing her how to use the gun.

[1136] Uh -huh.

[1137] So that she would be safe while he was gone.

[1138] Oh, sure.

[1139] And while he was showing her how to use the gun, it went off accidentally.

[1140] I mean, it could happen.

[1141] It could happen.

[1142] It was an old.

[1143] antique gun.

[1144] I have to say that yeah, I want to know how a gun works if I was going to be alone.

[1145] Sure.

[1146] Yeah.

[1147] Well, the police are immediately suspicious because these people live in a gated community in Aspen, Colorado.

[1148] So.

[1149] They are.

[1150] I bet they have dogs.

[1151] Yeah.

[1152] Yes.

[1153] There's dogs.

[1154] expensive dogs.

[1155] There's gates.

[1156] It's a whole community.

[1157] Everyone in the whole city makes a shit ton of money or is like a ski bomb.

[1158] Yeah.

[1159] Who makes who make slightly less amount of money.

[1160] So they're like, not sure.

[1161] Then the autopsy comes back and shows that Spider -Savich was bending over and had his back turned to the doorway when he was shot.

[1162] How do they know that they're so smart?

[1163] It was a downward, the bullet went in in a downward fashion because it was one shot in the abdomen, but it got his, it's a part of his heart, I believe.

[1164] I didn't have written down, but it basically like went down through his heart.

[1165] So he's bending over forward his butt toward her.

[1166] Right.

[1167] I believe.

[1168] Okay.

[1169] Yeah.

[1170] Okay.

[1171] So the police have no choice but to say that's premeditated and something incredibly suspicious is going on.

[1172] So Claudine is arrested.

[1173] She's charged with homicide and criminal negligence.

[1174] And she immediately hires prominent Aspen attorney Ron Austin, who gets her released on bond, which the cops said they knew she was going to get released.

[1175] That's just part of it, but they were like, because he was saying you can't arrest her.

[1176] This is her boyfriend.

[1177] She's really upset.

[1178] And they're like, know we're arresting her even if you're going to take her out of here.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] So it turns out she was married to the singer Andy Williams, who you may know he was, he was famous in the 60s.

[1181] He's the one that sang Moon River.

[1182] He was like a crooner in the 50s and 60s.

[1183] And he was up there with like Frank Sinatra.

[1184] and Dean Martin and all those guys.

[1185] He was just a little more, he wasn't a rat pack guy.

[1186] He was a little more white bread.

[1187] He was like a little more All -American.

[1188] Okay.

[1189] And he had a TV show that for his Christmas, the Andy Williams Christmas special for years was the number one rated television show of all time.

[1190] Holy shit.

[1191] Until one of the Super Bowls knocked it out of its place.

[1192] Can we watch those in secessions after we watched the life?

[1193] time stalker channing movies.

[1194] Yes.

[1195] Then we go into the Andy Williams Christmas specials.

[1196] We can because his wife, Claudine Lange, is on them with him.

[1197] Wait, okay.

[1198] Holy shit.

[1199] Yes, that's her first husband.

[1200] So...

[1201] Wow.

[1202] Oh, we're watching this shit out of those.

[1203] So when she's released from the police department on bond, they call up the Aspen Airport and have them reopen because it's late at night so that Andy Williams can fly in to Aspen to go and meet her and get her or like you know go meet up with her um so that's from talking about where it's like now we're in rich people territory where like people are kind of doing what they want.

[1204] Get a fucking airport open give that a try right now yeah anyone see what you can do yeah call over the berbank airport right now and see if you can find your keys okay see you can get a fucking phone answer see you get southwest on the line do as much as you can and let us know So, um...

[1205] See if you could get out of us.

[1206] Yeah.

[1207] So the police go back to the house and they, uh, they get a warrant and they start to search the house.

[1208] And they immediately, and they'd, some of the cops had seen it when they were originally on the scene.

[1209] Her diary is sitting on top of the dresser.

[1210] And it's a big, like, ledger size diary.

[1211] And so one of the cops, so the cops are taking pictures of the whole scene and processing the scene.

[1212] One of the cops takes the diary off.

[1213] the top of the dresser and is looking through it of like is this what I think it is sees that it is realizes it's her writing her most private thoughts why the fuck why does anyone have a diary for real stop it you stupid idiot go to a therapist if you're going to have a diary why would it ever ever be out anywhere no and have it be a ledger you think you're that fucking important right like Claudine well this is Claudine we're talking about I don't think she did it because She sounds really naive.

[1214] Okay, so while they're processing and taking photographs of the crime scene and of the bedroom, the photographer takes a picture of the dresser with no diary on top of it.

[1215] Because the cop had picked it up and was looking through it.

[1216] Then the cop put it back.

[1217] And then more pictures were taken.

[1218] With the di - Okay.

[1219] Love it.

[1220] Yeah.

[1221] Okay.

[1222] Why did I put my paper down?

[1223] Because you're telling you.

[1224] best story I had to use my hands to show you what a book looks like um that was a ledger you could tell by the way your hands were right it was nice it was big oh yeah yeah yeah string that goes down the middle so so that's that'll come back later okay um and also there was a couple other things okay so about claudine so we'll learn we'll learn about her a little bit claudine lingerie was born in paris she moved to las vegas when she was 18 she won't she won't be a star oh jesus she was a singer she's gorgeous she's gorgeous So she looks like she has a bit of an Amanda Pete look to her.

[1225] So like strong feature.

[1226] Yes, but like a flared nostril, very sexy, but also very soft spoken and had kind of like a soft spoken singing voice.

[1227] And the woman who, there was somebody that worked with her at the Follet Bourger at the Tropicana in Vegas, which was like the big burlesque show in Las Vegas at the time.

[1228] And this is before Las Vegas was like cheap and gross.

[1229] it was like classy as fuck this was the late 50s or like 60s so it was like the best part of Las Vegas or I mean like yeah whatever the classiest time this was when people wore like tuxitos to casinos and stuff and she became a star very quickly because she was like the French girl who got the picapooka right everyone else is like da -na -na -na -n -twisting it around someone make a fucking what's it called a remix of what Karen just did with all the music.

[1230] You don't have to.

[1231] Don't worry about it.

[1232] Okay, so one night, Claudine is driving home from her job at the burlesque show.

[1233] Her car breaks down, and then a Good Samaritan pulls over to help her out.

[1234] It's Andy Williams.

[1235] Oh.

[1236] So she's the lucky lady.

[1237] So hot.

[1238] So they're married on Christmas Day of 1961.

[1239] and she's 31 at the time and she's 18.

[1240] He's 31, she's 18?

[1241] This was Vegas in the early 60s.

[1242] The next year, Andy Williams released Moon River, which is like legendary.

[1243] All the money.

[1244] And he was one of the most famous singers at the time.

[1245] They got a mansion in Malibu.

[1246] And then in 1963, Andy Williams got his own TV show.

[1247] and Claudine had a baby the same year and another baby the next year but she still wanted to be a performer so she would appear on the Andy Williams show with him as his wife.

[1248] I can not wait to watch these.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] I bet she had so many female orgasms.

[1251] It was ridiculous.

[1252] Well, because she's French and she was raised to be in charge of her own orgasm.

[1253] Yes.

[1254] And to eat a lot of vegetables.

[1255] Sure.

[1256] Sorry, I keep bringing that up.

[1257] It's so gross.

[1258] Go on.

[1259] No, it's all right.

[1260] It's not gross.

[1261] That's the whole point of our podcast.

[1262] You're right.

[1263] Proud.

[1264] I'm proud.

[1265] Christmas show.

[1266] Oh, I told you that already.

[1267] He's basically this guy is like everybody's favorite thing to have on TV because it's easy to have on TV.

[1268] Like when you, Andy Williams had like a Dean Martin quality, but not racy, not, not drunkie.

[1269] He was more like the guy from church.

[1270] It wasn't like, suar -a, what's like, what's the word?

[1271] Swarthy.

[1272] Swo -s -W -W -W -W -E.

[1273] Those were all words.

[1274] Yep, but he is not that.

[1275] No, he's white bread.

[1276] Dominic done that this part of.

[1277] the privilege power privilege and justice goes i used to see them at parties in beverly hills and thought they were beautiful so they were kind of like an early 60s hollywood power couple yeah i love it they have a third child in 1969 and then later that year they shock all of hollywood by announcing that they're getting divorced because on the andy williams show it was all very family and you know it was like the osmonds it's that third child man right i am that one I am the third child.

[1278] We fucking ruin shit.

[1279] So soon after her divorce in 1969, she takes her three kids and moves to Aspen.

[1280] That's where Spider Savage was living at the time.

[1281] Spider Savage in the 60s is such a crazy name.

[1282] Okay.

[1283] So he's the local hero.

[1284] He's the golden boy.

[1285] So a little bit about Spider Savage.

[1286] The reason he has that nickname is because he was born premature.

[1287] And when his father saw him, he said he was just all arms.

[1288] and legs, he looked like a little spider.

[1289] So from a baby, they called him spider, which is the cutest.

[1290] He grew up skiing at Idol Weiss ski area in Khyber's, California, near modern -day Sierra at Tahoe Ski Resort.

[1291] So it's just basically, it's basically the, you know, that part of Northern California, but the Mount East, the mountains where it's all, that's kind of what everybody does up there.

[1292] It's like snowboarding and skiing all the time.

[1293] and he kind of kicked off like in the 70s skiing all the sudden got really popular in this way where like everyone like when I was in grammar school like high school boys would wear ski jackets with their lift tickets still on the zipper it was like that where it was it was that early it was heading into the early 80s where being rich got really popular too like IZod shirts yeah this was the pre IZod shirt way of having status was like if you skied.

[1294] Yeah.

[1295] Because there's like resorts.

[1296] That's it.

[1297] You don't go for the day.

[1298] Yeah, yeah.

[1299] You have to have money to ski.

[1300] Yeah.

[1301] So Spider'sab, which was like the king of skiing and really like made it popular.

[1302] He was, um, uh, in 1968, he made the Olympic, the winter Olympic team placed fifth in the slalom event.

[1303] He was blue -eyed, blonde -haired, good -looking, very skilled with the ladies.

[1304] And he was the most famous skier in America.

[1305] Yeah.

[1306] In 1971, that's when he moved to, oh, I forgot to say, he torched, this is from that skiing website.

[1307] The quote was, he torched the ski racing competition in high school and was taken on scholarship to the Colorado University at Boulder to ski with Billy Kidd.

[1308] So he basically was, you know, like a little skiing savant.

[1309] What's up, Boulder?

[1310] Come on.

[1311] See you soon.

[1312] So, yeah, that's right.

[1313] Head's up, Boulder.

[1314] We're going to come ski with you.

[1315] Never.

[1316] Never, ever.

[1317] So in 71, after his big successes, and he's starting to make money and he had a ton of sponsors.

[1318] And also you see these pictures.

[1319] He was just cool looking, like he had a real chiseled jaw.

[1320] He kind of looked like Dennis Wilson, the drummer for the Beach Boys, like the Hot Brother, where you're like, what's he doing?

[1321] They never let him talk.

[1322] He looked like that guy with like, you know, he had big sideburns.

[1323] I never let him.

[1324] Why can't?

[1325] Just let Dennis talk.

[1326] Like, I just hear what he has to say.

[1327] Um, so I was the drummer.

[1328] Uh, so he, he always had like, um, striped turtlenecks on.

[1329] Like, he was just cool.

[1330] He was cool.

[1331] Dangerous kind of seeming.

[1332] What's the thing?

[1333] He was like a beatnik kind of before.

[1334] Exactly.

[1335] Or that was like.

[1336] Yeah.

[1337] Yeah.

[1338] Like a sunburn cheeks rugged.

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] Outdoorsy.

[1341] But then also.

[1342] sexy super fucking hot okay so 71 he moves to Aspen because it's the place to be for pro skiers and obviously he's the stars he's gonna be in the middle of all that but he's 27 he's the richest pro skier on the circuit um and there was a movie that robert robert redford starred in yeah called downhill racer that is allegedly based on spider savage's like robert redford so like And that's when he moved, you know, he's 27 when he moves into Starwood.

[1343] His neighbors are John Denver, who was the hugest music star at the time.

[1344] And the man who owns Sears, Edgar Stearns, I believe his name was.

[1345] So Sears plays into both of our fucking murders.

[1346] Sears, baby.

[1347] Yeah.

[1348] Sears was, the 70s was all about Sears.

[1349] Rebecca Company.

[1350] There's nothing like looking through the Sears catalog at Christmas time trying to figure out what you wanted to get for Christmas.

[1351] Do you know that they, there's some, there's a. book there's like three books of it's just sears catalogs from the six 50s 60s and 70s I'm buying this for you you know wacko yes they have all the this place in fucking holly or like in silver lake has these insane books that someone made they just made the whole catalog that's crazy sears shit for sale and i would even look i would get so like into greedy what am i going to get i want this i want that yeah that i would take it into the curtains area because right after the toys was, like, the curtains, and I'd be like, I want these curtains.

[1352] Like, my greed wouldn't end.

[1353] It's not greed.

[1354] It just kept going.

[1355] I wanted everything.

[1356] It was just a dream for your future.

[1357] It was just dreams of having nice things.

[1358] And now you can do it.

[1359] But you have dogs, so you can't.

[1360] That's right.

[1361] They'll rip those goddamn curtains down.

[1362] It's fucking wood.

[1363] Okay, so.

[1364] Yeah, go.

[1365] He moves to Aspen.

[1366] He joins the USA's professional ski racing tour in 1970.

[1367] And he's the best one on it.

[1368] He's a baby.

[1369] magnet um as they would say uh and he starts doing celebrity ski racing events that are designed to drum up support and fans for the u .s pro tour that he was on because he did like the world cup he was constantly competing as a professional skier yeah um so at one of those events in 1972 in bear valley he meets claudine langer um and they quickly become an item she there's a story in that uh dominic done show where it was like she's like she's saw him, and she asked a friend who was also a skier, who is that?

[1370] And then she like, it was, she was, he was in her sights.

[1371] She was like, I'm getting that guy.

[1372] Good for her.

[1373] Um, uh, so basically it worked.

[1374] They got together.

[1375] She moved into his house, took her kids.

[1376] They all lived in his house, and they became fitchers on the Aspen party circuit.

[1377] Now, this was 1972 Aspen skiing party circuit so it's all coke i would pay so much money to go to one of those parties i mean imagine like the gold necklaces and the like the tans and the frosty lip gloss and it's and amazing like log cabin mansions like those houses of like really high ceilings of white shag carpeting i would i would die um and so much coke like coke to your ankles just like scoop it up off the ground and shove it's like snow they're just skiing on fucking coke it's snow snow snow everywhere And they are truly the it crowd.

[1378] So there's a lot of people that actually didn't like her because she moved in so quickly and he was so popular and had so many girlfriends and friends and, you know, got around and was this young, you know, beautiful playboy pro athlete.

[1379] And she basically got in there and locked that shit down and was like, I'm in your house.

[1380] We're a boyfriend, girlfriend.

[1381] So after she moved in, his wild days.

[1382] abruptly ended, which was a hard adjustment for him.

[1383] There was fighting.

[1384] She was very jealous, but she kind of had reason to be.

[1385] At one point, she had to forbid him from attending the best breast bash in Aspen.

[1386] Yes, she should have.

[1387] Yeah.

[1388] They were, you know, it was the 70s.

[1389] Jesus.

[1390] They would do things.

[1391] And so this is like these, this inner circle, super rich, like sports partying that they were doing, where it's like, well, I'm going to have a party at my house.

[1392] Bring your best tits.

[1393] We'll line them up.

[1394] It's like a wet t -shirt contest.

[1395] We're like, the thought of that now.

[1396] Yes.

[1397] It was so normal.

[1398] Yeah.

[1399] And this was like a voluntary wet t -shirt contest where no one was being paid or anything.

[1400] It wasn't at a bar.

[1401] No. Yeah.

[1402] Best breast.

[1403] So he couldn't go.

[1404] He was mad.

[1405] She was mad.

[1406] There's stories of them being at a nightclub, him not paying enough attention to her.

[1407] So she throws an entire glass of wine at him from across the room.

[1408] Jesus.

[1409] It's all Coke -fueled.

[1410] Yeah, everyone loves it, though.

[1411] Yes, exactly.

[1412] This was back when they didn't think Coke was bad for you.

[1413] And by 1975, their relationship was beginning to strain.

[1414] He was skiing less, partying more.

[1415] She had to stay home with kids, of course.

[1416] She was intensely jealous of the women that he got to constantly interact with, and the women they were totally drawn to him that I'm sure he was drawn to as well.

[1417] By January of 1976, he was telling friends he wanted her out of his life, but she wouldn't leave.

[1418] Oh, no. And they say that a lot of the reason that he didn't just kick her to the curb was because he loved her kids and he really cared about her kids and he didn't want them to suffer in any way.

[1419] So he, like, kept it going longer than probably he wanted to or should have because he just was so worried about, yeah, worried about that.

[1420] So Spider and Claudine spent the morning, oh, sorry, by, March of 76, he gave her the ultimatum to move out by April 1st.

[1421] So he waited all that time and then was like, look, you've got to go.

[1422] And the only reason, I said that already, so they spent the morning of March 21st apart.

[1423] He was skiing.

[1424] She was sipping wine at a bar called Little Mel's.

[1425] In the morning?

[1426] Like 20 fucking bucks that it was shibli.

[1427] A nice breakfast wine.

[1428] She was like, I fucking hate my life.

[1429] my hot boyfriend's kicking me out what am i going to do my favorite murder line of breakfast wines please they go with eggs yeah you can pour into cereal whatever it takes to get you to noon to your lunch beer to your nap to your lunch beer okay so later that day she joins him at a party at the home of an ABC sportscaster I should have written his name down it was bill something that's always bill something but I also love that it's like Like, there's an afternoon party.

[1430] Like, whatever.

[1431] But people noted that at this party, they were not their normal selves.

[1432] They weren't being warm.

[1433] They were barely around each other.

[1434] And they left separately.

[1435] A lot of people noted it.

[1436] So a little bit later that day, she was seen driving around town erratically.

[1437] And she eventually drove through the gates of Starwood, Starwood, at a very high rate of speed.

[1438] Breakfast wine.

[1439] Breakfast wine.

[1440] Fueled.

[1441] It'll get you.

[1442] Car rage.

[1443] So many times it's gotten me. Shubly.

[1444] And then very soon after her speeding through the gates of Starwood, the gunshots were reported.

[1445] Oh, come on.

[1446] Yeah.

[1447] So the ballistics showed that she was standing more than six feet away from Spider when the gun went off.

[1448] And Spider's father was a highway patrolman, and he grew up with guns.

[1449] He knew a lot about gun safety and proper gun.

[1450] handling and he would have never taught someone to shoot inside the house right that's just basic gun safety stuff of you if you're teaching someone how to use a gun you don't let them hold the gun and point it at you point it at you be and you don't do it in the bathroom see but also he can't teach her how to use the gun if she's standing six feet away with the gun and he's got her his back to her bending over honey okay so they also found small indentations in the cartridge of the bullet, which meant that the gun had jammed and the trigger had been pulled three or four times before it discharged.

[1451] No. So, at the trial, that was in January of 1977.

[1452] God, can you imagine, like, I'm going to kill this person?

[1453] No, wait, I'm going to try it.

[1454] Like, shoot, didn't work.

[1455] No, I'm going to do it again.

[1456] Like, that many times.

[1457] This fucking wine.

[1458] Stupid gun.

[1459] yeah she just has to stand there like keep trying and also he's in this he's about to take a shower so like is the shower running he can't hear the clicks like he's not she's so far away he doesn't even know she's in the room it's so creepy okay and so different than the original like what she claimed sure so at the trial um she said that her diary was not out on the dresser that she had hidden it away in the drawer.

[1460] And then the defense showed the photographs, the police photographs were at one point it's there, or it starts out not there, then it's there.

[1461] Which essentially the police photographs proved her story that it was never out there in the first place.

[1462] Meaning what?

[1463] They planted it?

[1464] Right, but that they found it, that they basically weren't allowed to search.

[1465] Because if you have something in a drawer, that's not really.

[1466] Yeah, you can't search That's illegal search and seizure, I guess.

[1467] Oh, shit.

[1468] So, yeah, I guess.

[1469] So it's like considered private.

[1470] I don't know.

[1471] Like, it has to be out in open view.

[1472] Everyone hide your diaries.

[1473] Go now.

[1474] Deeply.

[1475] And between your mattresses.

[1476] So also, so everything written in that diary, which was all her talking about how the relationship had soured, how he was kicking her out.

[1477] They had it all on paper from her voice.

[1478] and none of that was admissible in court.

[1479] Then they mishandled the gun.

[1480] So when a cop picked it up with a handkerchief and put it into the glove box of a cop car, that's how they dealt with the murder weapon.

[1481] Just like a naked gun into the fucking.

[1482] They're just like, Murray, can you take this and make sure it gets processed?

[1483] And he was like, no problem.

[1484] Murray, that fucking tissue that you used to blow your nose on 10 minutes ago, can you use that tissue to pick up that gun.

[1485] Yeah, and then pass it over here to this guy that's never had a job before.

[1486] Essentially, the person that ended up taking the car, this cop took those bullets out of the gun.

[1487] No. And because he was not a trained ballistics expert, all of that information that there were more indentations on the cartridge was also not admissible in court.

[1488] Right.

[1489] Because anything could have happened when that person was handling the gun.

[1490] So now the jury can't know that the relationship was ending or that it was a misfire.

[1491] It wasn't just one accidental shot.

[1492] The trigger had been pulled up to and maybe more than four times.

[1493] They did use the autopsy report to suggest that when Savage was struck, he was bent over, facing away, and at least six feet away from her, which was inconsistent with her story.

[1494] now as this is as the trial starts of course aspans overrun with reporters and there's they're everywhere they're taking up everything they're and they're trying to get stories from everybody the locals of course are disgusted they're not having it they hate them all they're not talking to them hunter house thompson lived in aspen at the time oh my god and he was quoted as saying it's like fouling your own nest because basically it's like you know they her shooting him has basically ruined their entire community.

[1495] By drawing those people there.

[1496] Also, a reporter, a local overheard a reporter saying, this is the best, we have murder, we have sex, and we have drugs.

[1497] So they were like, there was reporters were thrilled about this story.

[1498] Thirsty.

[1499] The prosecution rested after two days arguing that she, that Claudine should have known the gun was going to go off.

[1500] And the strategy was because they weren't going to be able to convict her without the actual evidence that they needed.

[1501] So they wanted to get her on the lesser charge of criminal negligence.

[1502] The defense put her on the stand.

[1503] And from the first day in court for the jury selection, she was dressed in big baggy gray dresses.

[1504] She was wearing peter pan collars and turtlenecks.

[1505] She was totally did everything she could to make herself look.

[1506] plain, unpretty, and not, like, the gorgeous starlit that she was.

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] She spoke so softly when she was on the stand that the jurors had to lean forward in their seats to hear her.

[1509] Oh, that's so manipulative.

[1510] Uh -huh.

[1511] When they have to move their bodies to come here, you know?

[1512] Right?

[1513] And, like, that she, when she does, there's like a thing where she makes a, after she's, after it's over, she makes this public statement, and then she's like, I just want to say, that like she really does talk like a little kitten girl all the time so um she she maintained it was accidental shooting she kept she stuck to her story she said she and spider were still in love he was her best friend she could never kill anyone especially not him the jury deliberated for just under three hours oh you go and the verdict was guilty of negligent homicide okay um which meant that she could be facing up to two years in prison, but the judge changed that conviction to a misdemeanor of criminal negligence and sentenced her to spend 30 days in the Pitkin County Jail and to pay a fine of $250.

[1514] $250 for taking someone's entire life.

[1515] Yeah.

[1516] There are people that were like that people who like drunk drivers get worse, get worse.

[1517] sentences.

[1518] Oh, my God.

[1519] And they said that the Pickin County Jail in Aspen.

[1520] Yeah.

[1521] Was like Mayberry with really good room service.

[1522] To fucking send me there immediately.

[1523] They allowed her to repaint her cell pink when she was there.

[1524] But she, um, wow.

[1525] The critical, the judge said that she had to serve her 30 days in jail, but that she could do it when it was convenient for her.

[1526] Oh, it's not jury fucking duty.

[1527] So she, even jury duty, you don't.

[1528] it doesn't work that way.

[1529] So it was real.

[1530] Oh, man. Yeah.

[1531] Real like that.

[1532] I mean, there's a, you could, you could theorize distantly that maybe someone was on the take, that it would, it would end up being that forgiving toward her.

[1533] Sure.

[1534] The critical reaction to the verdict and toward her and the sentencing was exasperated when she, after the trial was over, went on vacation to Mexico with her defense attorney, Ron Austin.

[1535] no who was married at the time no yeah honey um they later married and they still live in aspen like now now well at the airing of power privilege and justice like you and i could you and i and i and steven could call the burbank airport right now get on a fucking plan and go meet them no the burbank airport it's closed not for us no stevent call the burbanker um after the criminal trial savage's parents filed a three million dollar wrongful death lawsuit against Langer in May of 77.

[1536] That was eventually resolved out of court in September of 1979 with the proviso that Lange never tell or write about the story.

[1537] Wow.

[1538] And Mick Jagger wrote a song called Claudine for the Emotional Rescue Rolling Stones album.

[1539] No way.

[1540] It was never released because they found out about it and like basically said, we'll sue you.

[1541] Shit.

[1542] Uh -huh.

[1543] Lost track.

[1544] Right?

[1545] and that is the murder of spider savage i have never even fucking heard that name really i think i considered it like kind of a moldy -oldy of like because it's so sensational it's so celebrity and rich people i want to see their photos i want to see how i've never and so they're still alive uh he's not let's say no come on you said they No, you know.

[1546] Wait, what?

[1547] Wait, start over.

[1548] Start over.

[1549] I miss. Tell it again.

[1550] I miss the middle.

[1551] Wow.

[1552] I don't know if she's still alive because I actually, as I was pulling up to your house, it was looking up Claudio Lange today and hitting things.

[1553] And like, I can't drive.

[1554] Well, you shouldn't be.

[1555] I shouldn't.

[1556] But then also, if my, my glasses on, I can't read small.

[1557] Yeah.

[1558] Let's pretend she is.

[1559] You know what, that can be everybody else if you're, and if you're interested in the Claudine Langer story, go ahead and Google it.

[1560] Yeah, and then tell us about it on Twitter.

[1561] That's right.

[1562] If there's anything good, my friend John Levine, who I work with, is we were actually talking about it in the room today, and he said, I think there was a hoax.

[1563] There was something about a hoax in that case, but I couldn't, I looked it up in four different ways, and I couldn't find anything about what he was talking about.

[1564] Where are her kids, is what I want to know, and can they have a podcast?

[1565] Well, Andy Williams, when all that started, he flew in and he would go to court with her, He, like, stood by her and really supported her.

[1566] And I think maybe just as much for the kids as anyone else.

[1567] But, like, there was a bit of a, like, united front presentation in that way.

[1568] Which always helps the defense when...

[1569] But it also helps those kids.

[1570] Like, it's not...

[1571] I mean, at least they had someone...

[1572] I don't know.

[1573] And it just makes me feel slightly better that they could go back to their Malibu mansion and go live there and, you know...

[1574] Yeah.

[1575] be and at least have a dad around normalish life oh man yeah what a boomer what's your um positive positive of the week I don't know yet what's yours I went first last week I just worked so hard telling my whole story for so long um I was trying so hard to think of it you know what it's running errands with Vince like he's not working right now which is great I mean, he's, he's our tour manager, but...

[1576] Yeah, he's working a lot, actually.

[1577] He's working a lot.

[1578] He doesn't have to go to a job, which is kind of new for us.

[1579] And, like, you know, they're all these stupid, like, to get the post office.

[1580] And then I have to go to the fact hand, I have to get my prescription.

[1581] I have to do this and that.

[1582] And, like, we go together and then we go get lunch while we're doing it.

[1583] It's just like, it's so nice.

[1584] I like being alone a lot, but I don't mind it when I'm with him.

[1585] I'd rather be with him than alone, which is really rare for me. So it's just running errands with him.

[1586] It makes me really fucking happy like we did it today.

[1587] And it was just...

[1588] That's nice.

[1589] It's just fucking cool.

[1590] It's much better with him around.

[1591] It's good you married him.

[1592] I know, right?

[1593] He's going to keep him around a little bit.

[1594] Yeah.

[1595] At least through our tour.

[1596] What's yours?

[1597] I'm trying to think.

[1598] I mean, I love that dinner that we got to go to.

[1599] Our friends invited us to a weekly dinner that they do, which was very cool.

[1600] And it was just like one of those things where I, sitting there and it was such good food and it was such fun like smart funny people and it was one of those the feel of it I was like oh this is how like healthy adults live their life yeah like you this is this is how you're supposed to do it it's not like you when you have a weekly meeting it's like you have uh it's not like I'll see you when I see you it's like you have this obligation to these people and throughout the week like however bad your week is you know you're still going to see these people on Sunday and it's going to be nice.

[1601] I kind of like what people make a community for themselves.

[1602] Yeah.

[1603] Or make like if you don't have the family around you that maybe either you used to have or that some people, other people do have.

[1604] Or don't have.

[1605] You still set up kind of like a community for yourself.

[1606] It's good.

[1607] I think it's so healthy for people to do that.

[1608] It's nice when you turn your friends into family.

[1609] So thanks Dave Clark for inviting us.

[1610] Thanks Dave Clark.

[1611] And also, thanks for that restaurant.

[1612] Maybe we shouldn't blow it up, but...

[1613] Yeah.

[1614] Because I don't normally like red sauce, and that bread...

[1615] There was a bowl of red sauce that gave you to dip your bread in.

[1616] And I was just like, I would like to do this for the rest of my life.

[1617] And the red was just, like, insane rosemary bread.

[1618] That was just, like, fucking the best bread I've ever had.

[1619] It was really good.

[1620] That was really nice.

[1621] Yeah.

[1622] Yes.

[1623] Because the first thing I thought it was, like, I did a comedy show, but I was like, I hated my set and I hate this and me, me, me, me, and mom.

[1624] Yeah.

[1625] And so, I don't know.

[1626] All right.

[1627] Well, that's, I think that's lovely.

[1628] Thanks.

[1629] Thank you guys for listening and for being fucking cool as shit.

[1630] And we're on Twitter and Instagram and all these places and all that stuff.

[1631] And thank, yeah, thank you.

[1632] And mostly stay sexy.

[1633] And don't get murdered.

[1634] Elvis, do you want cookie?

[1635] Wait, you want a cookie?

[1636] Okay.