GIVING BIRTH IN PRISON HOUSING JULIA WANDELT! Gemma Part 4 & Jen | Podcast 704 McCann Case

[0] Hey, good afternoon everybody if you're in the UK or wherever you are in the world, welcome.

[1] Thank you for tuning back in.

[2] We have got Gemma on who went viral overnight with last night's broadcast answering all of the questions about HMP Peterborough where Gemma has served time in the mother and baby unit as given birth and all of the Julie questions that come in, there's still tons.

[3] So we're going to have a certain structure.

[4] Jen is going to be interviewing Gemma for the first section, whereby Gemma is going to get into great detail about what led up to the incarceration, being pregnant, giving birth, and the horror of a guard that disrespects Gemma.

[5] And this is an ongoing thing.

[6] It's a very tricky situation to deal with.

[7] So Jen is going to...

[8] handle all that section.

[9] I'll be watching Babysitting and I will be...

[10] Babysitting, it's called Dad Duties.

[11] I've just got to stop you there.

[12] I hate it when a guy goes, I'm babysitting.

[13] No, you're looking after your child.

[14] Whatever questions come in, I'll be watching while I'm Dad...

[15] What was it?

[16] After your own child.

[17] While I'm looking after my own child, I will be watching all of the questions coming in, starring them.

[18] And getting them ready.

[19] Let's let Gemma tell her full story.

[20] And then all the questions will be saved by me. And then I'm going to come in.

[21] We're going to switch.

[22] Jen's going to be looking after our own child.

[23] And I'm going to cease looking after our own child.

[24] And then I'm going to come in and handle the question sections.

[25] We're going to do the old switcheroo.

[26] So over to Jen and Gemma.

[27] Enjoy.

[28] Thank you for that political correctness there.

[29] But thank you, Gemma.

[30] Honestly, when Sean told me, now he's only given me sort of snippets of your story surrounding the birth of your child and how you gave birth in HMP Piedborough.

[31] Now, I'm really intrigued.

[32] I found my pregnancy to be difficult and quite challenging, yet one of the most beautiful experiences of my life.

[33] But then I heard about your experience.

[34] I was like, that just completely ruins every sort of wonderful experience that you should have during pregnancy.

[35] So then give birth in prison.

[36] I mean, where do I even begin?

[37] Like I said to Sean, so obviously she wasn't pregnant.

[38] She didn't.

[39] conceive in prison, did you?

[40] No. Like, no, no. So I think we're going to have to go sort of start from that part of your story and go out from there, really.

[41] Just a picture, if you wouldn't mind.

[42] Thanks.

[43] Yes.

[44] So I was incarcerated for GBH with intent due to attacking my perpetrator because he was a vile person.

[45] So I defended myself by using an offensive weapon.

[46] And that's what caused me to be arrested for GBH with intent.

[47] Well, the charge was higher than that.

[48] I don't know if I can say it because it's daytime, isn't it?

[49] But it was lowered from a more serious charge to GBH with intent.

[50] So whilst I was on bail, I got into a whirlwind relationship with my now partner of 16 years.

[51] So it was a success story.

[52] And I ended up getting pregnant on bail, Jen.

[53] So then what happened?

[54] is I rang my solicitor.

[55] I said, I'm pregnant.

[56] What do I do?

[57] Because I thought I never even heard of a mother and baby unit in prison.

[58] I didn't know you could give birth in prison.

[59] I'd never in my life heard of people giving birth in prison.

[60] So she said, there's mother and baby units.

[61] It's highly likely you'll get a place.

[62] She said, don't worry about, you know, abortion or anything like that.

[63] That doesn't have to be an option.

[64] She said, but it will be better if you remand yourself.

[65] at your next court dates because what the prison but what the courts like to do Jen is keep pushing back your court date and adjourning it so that you give birth on the out they don't want to send pregnant mothers to prison they try not to do it but I didn't want my child going into care should my partner not be granted you know the child in his care say they said he was too young or this and that I thought I just want to get a place on the mother and baby unit and know that I can take care of my baby so she said go to court and ask if you can start your sentence go guilty remand yourself so that's what I did I said to the judge can you remand me and I was eight months no I was seven months around six and a half months seven months gone and he said yeah I accept your guilty plea and there you go go down take her down to the cells and that's where i went i went down to the cells to await my escort to prison yeah let's just picture it now you're seven months pregnant you're i don't know what that like obviously and she just you're humongous and you're getting taken into a place like that yeah how are your hormones at that point um do you know it didn't bother me Jen I felt quite safe I felt safer in there because you've got to think I'd just come out of a domestic violence relationship right and unfortunately well not unfortunately I'd share a child with him but unfortunately that pregnancy with him in my ear abusing me and the labour with him at the birth was far worse than me going to prison pregnant so this is why I'm trying to remove the stigma of women going to prison pregnant because Women are out there protesting against it, saying, you know, no woman should be sent to prison pregnant.

[66] But it's equally as bad being in a toxic relationship, Jen, being abused all through your pregnancy and then being abused in the labour.

[67] So I felt quite relieved.

[68] I thought, you know what, I'm going to be fed. I've got a roof over my head.

[69] So I didn't feel too scared.

[70] Now.

[71] Being pregnant, you avoid the sweat box.

[72] You know what sweat box is, don't you?

[73] It's the van with the tiny little compartments.

[74] Yeah, with the little stool.

[75] So I avoided the sweat box.

[76] So they took me in like a transit van style thing.

[77] That's all I can explain it.

[78] And yeah, that was it.

[79] Then I was off to Peterborough, heavily pregnant.

[80] And that was it.

[81] That part.

[82] Not knowing your story then, and obviously there's going to be viewers watching today who don't, was that your first time inside?

[83] Yeah, so it was my first time inside, but it wasn't my first criminal charge.

[84] So I had, unfortunately, I had quite a few criminal charges.

[85] So I'd done community service in the past.

[86] I'd been on electronic tag.

[87] You know, I'd been in and out of magistrates court, but this was my first personal Crown Court case because the charge was so serious and I was...

[88] mildly high profile for certain areas of the district you know um yeah and so no yeah so it was my first time in prison yeah so you're going in you're seven months gone yeah and do they have to do all the the strip searching um and all the usual stuff they do with other inmates or is it just cut and shut and you get a nice do you get a nicer cell as well so i've double questioned you there sorry no that's fine so no so we avoid the strip search so you know that's like you they give you a bit kind of decency so you avoid the strip search but you get the same process as everybody else apart from the strip search so you still get your health care check you still get your microwave meal and yeah that's pretty much it really and then you just shipped off to health care and You're just spending your pregnancy on the normal wings.

[89] But they will put you on a vulnerable wing, it's called, where they house, Jen, pregnant inmates, vulnerable inmates, and child unalivers.

[90] So you're putting your pregnant women with your child unalivers.

[91] But I can't stress to you enough, it's safe.

[92] They're not going to attack you.

[93] Nobody in prison is going to attack a pregnant woman.

[94] It's just the code.

[95] So I felt extremely safe.

[96] But I just...

[97] didn't like sharing the same space as a child unaliver, even though, you know, I was quite intrigued to know.

[98] I didn't know too many details because they keep it quite hush -hush, but there was two women on there that were suspected to have done.

[99] something there was rumors but they were conflicting so you never really knew the truth so but yeah so that's where they put you think they would put them on a different wing wouldn't you the child on the lives but they don't because people want to attack them you see and that's classed as a privilege wing so it houses the decent inmates as well that don't kick off so that's where they're safe yeah yeah i don't know how i'd feel about that especially with the the pregnancy rage hormones and meeting people who like you said have but allegedly or potentially unalive children i i think i really struggle to sit with that information but yeah no and so you're on the wing uh yeah you you you're not sharing a cell you're in a cell on your own pregnant i guess now then i don't know if they do pad up pregnant inmates with other inmates i'll have to ask my friend because she just gave birth in there in 2017 so i'll have to double check that information but i got a single cell because i was classed as a prolific violent offender under maca too so basically i'm a menace to society but if you knew my past charges as to why i got that you would actually I mean, not the one I went to prison for.

[100] That was not funny.

[101] But the two prior to that is ridiculous.

[102] It was more or less guilty by association because everything I've been done for on my criminal record was all with my toxic ex, who was an absolute, well, you know, yeah, he weren't nice anyway.

[103] So that was, I was just dragged into all of his carry on.

[104] So I did get a single cell, luckily.

[105] Now, going into labour, some people might.

[106] go over to the mother and baby unit.

[107] They might get their place before they go into labour.

[108] But I went to my midwife appointment because you still get all your midwife appointments.

[109] You still get to go to the hospital for your scans.

[110] You get all the same privileges as you would do on the out, right?

[111] I went to the midwife appointment.

[112] She goes, there's something in your urine.

[113] I can't remember what the terminology was, but it triggered that the baby was in distress, right?

[114] so I was like okay she goes you need to get her to the hospital well I was in the hospital Jen within 45 minutes I was there right and they handcuffed you in the taxi and then they release you from the handcuffs when you're at the hospital but you do turn up to the hospital in handcuffs now it was like this in 2009 and it was like this in 2017 whether these rules have changed I don't know I can only talk from mine and my friend's experience my close friend's experience They released me at the hospital.

[115] But by that time, you're already a spectacle, Jen, because all the expecting mothers from the out have seen you in handcuffs pregnant.

[116] So it's a little bit demeaning.

[117] But, you know, that's prison.

[118] You can't really complain about it.

[119] They put me in for my test, you know, where they put the monitors on your belly to check that his heart rate's all right.

[120] And his heart rate kept dropping.

[121] It was like he was coming in and out of consciousness.

[122] So they said, right, we need her induced.

[123] So they took me up to the birthing suite.

[124] where you have to have two prison officers with you at all time.

[125] But again, you still get all the same privileges, gas and air, epidural, whatever that other one is.

[126] Yeah, all the good stuff.

[127] Yeah, all the good stuff, right?

[128] Yeah.

[129] They ring your partner or your family member for you so you can still have a birthing partner.

[130] So the only difference is you've got two prison officers on the other side of the curtain.

[131] So you've got to give birth with them there.

[132] Yeah.

[133] Sorry, I don't know what I caught there or not.

[134] Your partner was allowed there as well?

[135] Was it just the two police officers?

[136] Yeah, you're allowed your spouse or a family member there as a birthing partner.

[137] So you still get all the same privileges, but you've just got your two prison officers in there as well.

[138] But they have to stay in the room.

[139] What were they like?

[140] Were they decent?

[141] Yeah, go on.

[142] Right, OK.

[143] I want to build like a real picture of this.

[144] So we've got, you know, you're in there.

[145] getting induced it's really going for it and you've got these two coffers well prison officers not quite the same but you know what i mean at least good value um The two that they sent in afterwards.

[146] Now, the prison officer that took me to the hospital with another one, I can't remember what the other one was like, but she was lovely.

[147] She was proper lovely.

[148] And she said, I wish I could stay with you, but I can't.

[149] And I thought, well, you could if you ask for an extra shift, but OK, whatever.

[150] And then the two they sent after that.

[151] Well, one of this little woman, right, she must have been about 35, 40.

[152] She should have never have been a prison officer.

[153] She was a little dumpy thing, right?

[154] She didn't have a flipping clue.

[155] No lived experience.

[156] The guy was exactly the same.

[157] He was like this great big, he looked like, I don't mean to be rude, but like a computer nerd.

[158] Do you know what I mean?

[159] So you can imagine what they were thinking.

[160] I'm there.

[161] I've been on the front page news as, you know, the local stabber, let's say, right?

[162] So they must, I don't know what they were thinking, to be fair.

[163] Right?

[164] So, yeah, they just didn't have a clue.

[165] And when my partner said, can you give us some dignity and step out, they were like, no, we can't do that.

[166] They were a little bit shirty, but I just think they felt awkward, to be fair, because, I mean, what do you do in that situation?

[167] So that's what they were like.

[168] And then, yeah, it was all just go.

[169] But to be honest, Jen, right, I was in that much pain.

[170] I just didn't care who was in the room.

[171] No. I was going to get on.

[172] So you had an induction, as you said.

[173] Did that take a while to kick in?

[174] Because with me, I had to be induced in the end because it was a weekday.

[175] And they used that, I won't go into grand detail for people watching, but they used that pessary and that then forced a labour on.

[176] Was that the same view?

[177] It was, and they also put me on a drip, on a timed drip.

[178] Oh, yes, yes.

[179] They put me on that timed drip, and then it literally just went, it went so quick.

[180] But in the end, they had to get a Von Toos.

[181] Now, a Von Toos is like a big...

[182] plunger that you use down the toilet yeah so they're pulling the baby but as they're pulling his head out the cord has wrapped around his neck four times so they're pulling him and then the umbilical cord's pulling him back into the placenta so they're going in and out with him in and out in and out and he's blue and then she's gone stop and then she's cut it one time but she had to pull him out keep pulling him out a bit more to make sure she could cut it without hurting him four times they had to cut him and then they they got him out he was breathing for a second he put him on me on my chest and then he just went blue and they grabbed him off me and had to put him in the little incubator and resuscitate him um but he was fine um he had jaundice and they took him down to intensive care where I was still able to breastfeed him and get milk to him from my breast and yeah that was that that was the process of the birth yeah Oh, wow.

[183] I thought my burp was pretty intense, but that's, oh, the bullet, my.

[184] Yeah.

[185] That is so traumatic.

[186] Did they not think of Caesarian during any of this?

[187] Or was it too late?

[188] I think it was too late.

[189] I think it was too late because he was there.

[190] Do you know what I mean?

[191] And they didn't know the cord was around his neck.

[192] So what he'd done is he'd opened his bowels in the womb and he'd been swallowing the...

[193] the dirty water and whatnot but anyway he's absolutely fine now and he's six foot so he's he's he's survived really well so then i had to stay in the hospital gen and i can't remember if it was one week or two and i had to have two prison prison officers with me at all times so if i went for a shower and you've got to think you know you're still damaged down there so you've got to change all your bits and bobs with these prisoner officers in the room oh no yeah yeah So there's a curtain.

[194] You can close the curtain, but you can imagine it's your dignity is completely gone, you know.

[195] And then that was it.

[196] That I managed to get despite Officer Greasy and we'll go into him in a moment.

[197] Right.

[198] Despite Officer Greasy trying to get my mother and baby units place stopped.

[199] They warranted me one because I went through all the checks with social services.

[200] There was nothing.

[201] I was not a risk to children.

[202] I was a good mom to my.

[203] other child you know there was no i wasn't on the band list or anything like that so they said give her a place and the next thing i know i'm going back to the prison with my baby in tow so yeah it was he was safe i was safe and then i get to the mother and baby unit and then who opens my door straight away officer greasy so should i go should i touch on that right yeah let's get in for anyone who hasn't obviously heard your story before let's get real deep with officer greasy which obviously by the sounds of his name is an absolute greaseball That's a polite way of putting it.

[204] Right.

[205] So what happened is when I was still on the normal wings, which was the general population wings on C wing, right?

[206] He came over for a visit.

[207] And because I didn't know what was happening with my mother and baby unit place, I was eager to ask him, was he there to see me?

[208] So I said, oh, have you come about my mother and baby unit place?

[209] And he just looked at me and went, no, like really, really nastily.

[210] So that ticked me off.

[211] I was heavily pregnant and upset.

[212] I've gone and saw his CO, SO, sorry, his SO was on the wing somewhere and I said, oh, you can tell that greasy, well, see you next Tuesday, that he doesn't have to speak to me like that.

[213] I'm still a human being, right?

[214] Worst thing I could have said, Jen, because this other...

[215] so who was probably jealous of a younger guy working on the unit you know how they get couldn't wait to tell this other guy oh she's called you greasy she thinks you look greasy so that stuck in his head and he tried his best to get my mother and baby unit place revoked Jen just because I'd said something in the heat of pregnancy yeah so yeah what we're all capable of anyway so i've got to the mother and baby unit i'm breastfeeding my baby so you know i'm naked from the top half right because it was easier because i didn't have any um proper tops and bras like that he's bursting he goes greasy am i and i was like oh My flipping gosh, I've just given birth.

[216] Like, are we really going to have this conversation?

[217] So straight away, I went into fight or flight mode.

[218] So I was like, oh, I didn't mean you were greasy looking.

[219] I meant you were greasy.

[220] It's a street word for being cool.

[221] I just made it up.

[222] I never even heard that word in my flipping life, right?

[223] But, you know, as women, we go into fight survival mode, don't we?

[224] We're greasy.

[225] It's cool.

[226] Oh, does it make me cool?

[227] All right.

[228] OK, well, great.

[229] And anyway, right?

[230] Maybe we can start in a trend here.

[231] You never know.

[232] We don't know what it means anyway.

[233] And then he goes, oh, you think I'm cool, right?

[234] And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Anyway, the next thing I know, two weeks down the line, you know, he keeps coming to the cell and chit -chatting.

[235] And then all the other officers were off duty.

[236] He then moved me cells.

[237] I was in this lovely big cell opposite the phone and the office.

[238] Right.

[239] He goes, oh, I'm going to move yourselves.

[240] So he moved me up the wing and I thought, well, why is that?

[241] And he said, oh, somebody's coming in with twins.

[242] This is what he said to me. Nobody came in with twins, Jen.

[243] Nobody came in with twins.

[244] Anyway, so he put me in this cell out of the eyes view of the offices.

[245] Right.

[246] And then he was.

[247] just hounding me coming saying things like oh you're the best mum on the unit a girl like you shouldn't be in prison I can't believe what you went through I've got your file on the desk I know everything about you blah blah blah blah blah then he would write um he would say about my letters now it goes in the little communal post box right and because there's not that many women on the wing He obviously was reading it at night time for something to do.

[248] So he was like, he came to my cell one day and he was like, oh, I read your mail to your man last night.

[249] And he was like, why haven't you written anything about me and all this?

[250] And I was like, what on earth?

[251] So then I had to time when I read to my boyfriend to make sure he wasn't on duty so that he didn't get wound up.

[252] So I would write to my boyfriend on certain days and then when it was him on duty, I would have to write to my friend who had been shipped out and say, oh, there's a really lovely officer on the wing and he's so cool.

[253] Just like that, you know, so like, honestly, it was just mental torture, Jen, right?

[254] And then one day, but I want to, I do want to separate this terrible experience from my birthing and raising a baby in prison experience because it's two totally different experiences and I don't want to maul that.

[255] more my experience by that i was just very unlucky and i don't know any other women that that happened to it's just he took a shine to me an unnecessary shine anyway i was sitting in my cell the next thing i know he storms in grabs hold of me and just starts kissing me and all i can remember yeah all i can remember was his belt pressing on me his shirt you know the the The uniform and that.

[256] Honestly, this is why I can't stand the uniform.

[257] There's a well -known TikToker.

[258] And every time I see the uniform, I'm just like, oh, it just gives me PTSD, Jen.

[259] Proper, proper, proper bad.

[260] Right.

[261] And then it was then because on the mother and baby unit, you can send your baby out for visits home.

[262] So my partner would collect my son, our son, sorry, and take him out on visits.

[263] Well, that was his prime time then to have his way with me. So then he would.

[264] Well, you know, it was full intimacy.

[265] Yeah.

[266] That he coerced me into.

[267] Yeah.

[268] And I thought, what do I do?

[269] You know, do I bring it up to the SO?

[270] And I sat and I rackled my, you know, I racked my brain about it.

[271] And I was like, there's just no way, Jen, I could have done it because, you know, they're a clique.

[272] Do you know what I mean?

[273] If I'd have gone and told the SO that he would have spun it around onto me because that's how he was, I would have got another charge.

[274] I would have had my baby taken away from me. So I couldn't risk it, Jen.

[275] So I had to go along with it until he got moved to a different part of the prison.

[276] And then what was it one night?

[277] One day, this is how abusive he was, right?

[278] It was me and my friend from Luton up the...

[279] up in the next cell right we're all there on the landing as mothers with our babies yeah he's come bursting on the wing he said um there's been a bomb scare everybody get in your rooms he's grabbed me physically grabbed me and my friend from loot and dragged us into our cell and said we've got to stay in here until the bomb scare has been um you know squash or whatever and he was making all this big thing and then when i went to my work placement the next day.

[280] And I said, oh, what about the, you know, the scare that we had yesterday?

[281] And they were like, what are you on about?

[282] So he fabricated it.

[283] He fabricated it, Jen.

[284] Proper, honestly.

[285] So that, oh, I can't even.

[286] Oh, and then that.

[287] He took you and your mate into the room this time.

[288] Yeah, he took me and my mate into the room this time.

[289] Yeah, but he didn't do anything to her, you know.

[290] intimacy or anything like that but he was just scaring us he was just scaring us all psychological game all psychological yeah absolutely and she was like this is weird and then the girls on the unit knew that he was like on me and then and one of my friends was like he's on you and i couldn't i was like oh i couldn't say to her because there was already jealousy brewing do you know what i mean but it wasn't what it wasn't wanted attention And and then I told my mate over the phone in code who had just been released from Sea Wing.

[291] And she was like, Gemma, this isn't right.

[292] She's like, it isn't right.

[293] She goes, what can I do?

[294] And I was like, there's nothing we can do.

[295] And she goes, I knew it when he kept coming to your work placement.

[296] There was something going on.

[297] And I said, yeah.

[298] So all this went on.

[299] But apart from so apart from that, you know, I also did manage to raise my baby really well.

[300] So apart from this prison officer who was eventually moved.

[301] to a part of the prison now you would have thought he would have if he wanted to get away from me like he said in court yeah he would have moved to like the mail side or somewhere else he moved jen to my work placement because he was worried about what other officers i was talking to at the work placement so although the intimacy stopped just before i left his control tactics is he was with me all day at my work placement looking who i was interacting with yeah worried who i was saying anything to then he would come and target my friends to see if i'd said any information about him um interrogating my friends in the prison oh jen it was exhausting it really was but um so aside from that the mother and baby unit was brilliant though they offered a fantastic nursery service i know it seems traumatic how can she get through it how can she go from one situation to the next but i can't stress enough that the babies are so safe i was just unfortunate in my experience i have him on around because i've watched um and i can't remember the program now maybe you might have a clue where they they were showing the mother of baby unit in prison once and they had yeah uh there were tons tons of um you know women in there who pregnant or given birth and they were showing like the playroom they have there and the kids looked well looked after and then they sadly were showing I remember this one woman who she was it was a real sad story but she was a bit she was not very well in there and she kept leaving her cell messy and then taking the baby from the cot and putting the baby in the bed with her, which is apparently a big no -no in there.

[302] You're not allowed to sleep with your child in there.

[303] And so then they put a child into care, if I remember rightly, and chucked her back in general population.

[304] Oh, we've seen it.

[305] I'm going to have to find out, because that was probably about a good four years ago I watched that.

[306] Oh, really?

[307] I'm going to find out what that was.

[308] Yeah.

[309] documentary it was here in the uk yeah i'm not seeing that well that's the thing you're always there's a possibility you've got to get one poor parent on there where they've just misjudged her or they've tried to give her a chance and guide her because they do guide a lot of the women in there you know they do do really fun things with the children as well so for me With my first pregnancy, I didn't have any help.

[310] I didn't have any aftercare.

[311] But in prison, I had loads of aftercare.

[312] I had the nursery service, so I could go to my job placement two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon.

[313] So when the baby turns six weeks old, by the rules, you have to go to your work placement.

[314] Now, you could have a work placement on the wing where you can still see your baby, or you'll go to the general population.

[315] Well, I went to general population, but I would have never left my baby.

[316] If I didn't trust the two nursery staff that were there, Jen, they were absolutely fantastic.

[317] So your baby will, they will take your baby to the park on the out.

[318] They will take your baby to cafes.

[319] They'll take photos.

[320] You get a great big folder like this.

[321] So this is the folder that.

[322] I won't go too much into it, but there's a big folder and they log every single milestone.

[323] They do like messy art. So you've got all the memories.

[324] They do little footprints and handprints.

[325] Now, I would have never thought of anything like that on the out because I was a young parent, Jen, and I was misguided, you know.

[326] I never thought of anything like this.

[327] And especially things like this now, little, hold on, where are we?

[328] Messy play they did.

[329] Oh, Siggy loves his mercy play.

[330] Yeah, you know, and I would never have thought.

[331] Yeah.

[332] I feel like without his nursery, he wouldn't do mercy play here because I am like extreme OCD.

[333] But I try my best.

[334] I try my best.

[335] But I don't know.

[336] I guess a lot of people out there probably assume, wrongfully assume that.

[337] Because the mother's in prison, the child's in prison, but by the sounds of it, the child is thriving and they are putting the child's development first, which is really important.

[338] I think that would be, that's what my mind would go to, would be like, right.

[339] So I just, I don't know, have these visions, well, had these visions of women just being chained to a bed, giving birth, the child comes off, they get shoved back in the cell.

[340] I did watch, obviously, that programme, but it didn't go into detail about the child's development and taking them to the park and messy play and stuff like that.

[341] Not that we're promoting.

[342] No. We're like, oh, yeah, yeah, your child's got the best start in life.

[343] Yeah.

[344] Go to prison.

[345] But, no, it sounds like the taxpayer's money, where it's going, that's actually a good place it's going.

[346] Yes.

[347] It is.

[348] I cannot fault the mother and baby unit on Peterborough.

[349] when it came to the babies and how they're looked after.

[350] And they also promoted healthy eating, Jen, which is something I never did with my firstborn, right?

[351] So they won't let you have any baby.

[352] Well, I can only speak from HMP Peterborough's perspective, right?

[353] They don't let you have any baby jars, any of those sachets.

[354] You've got to cook everything from fresh.

[355] So they give you meat, fish, veg and fruit, and you have to batch cook it for the week.

[356] So your baby will have like butternut squash and chicken or...

[357] mints or you know all sorts so they promote healthy eating um say any money that you get sent in for your baby so say there was somebody in there that had to claim working tax credits all from the benefit system anyway all that money gets sent to the prison it goes on your account but you can only spend it on your baby.

[358] So people might think women are in there spending it on tobacco or vapes, whatever it is these days, but you're not.

[359] You're only allowed to spend it on baby products and then you'll get the rest that's stocked up when you leave.

[360] You're not handcuffed to the bed.

[361] There was one episode, apparently, right?

[362] And it's only hearsay where a woman was handcuffed to the bed in 1996.

[363] Now, they've not forgot this and they just keep running it through the press.

[364] But I guarantee you, you are not handcuffed to the bed.

[365] And, you know, you don't when people here giving birth in prison, they presume you're actually giving birth in prison in your cell around, you know, unalivers and villains.

[366] But you're not.

[367] You go to the hospital, you get all the same privileges.

[368] And like I said, my son now is six foot.

[369] tall he's huge he's whopping so he had a really good start in there and was it because they promoted breastfeeding and healthy eating and yeah you know i feel like all these uh ready -made meals i've popped the top on i feel a bit no no no because guess what jen as soon as i got out and had more kids that's what i did mate i didn't carry it on and now they're small and i'm thinking I wish I'd have brought up squash.

[370] I'm down to the health food shop in the morning now.

[371] Yeah, I know.

[372] Nothing like a bit of mum's shaming, eh?

[373] Goodness me. No, because as soon as I got out, I was guilty.

[374] I was like, where's the town gate, Jaws?

[375] Anyway.

[376] Top, top, top.

[377] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.

[378] So, and then what else really?

[379] Oh, and registering the baby.

[380] So, the registrar will come to the prison.

[381] And where you put your address, instead of it being stamped with HMP Peterborough, so say your child has to go and give their birth certificate to the passport office or wherever, or a workplace, it's not stamped.

[382] So they're not stigmatised with HMP Peterborough.

[383] They'll put a separate address as though it's just a house.

[384] So that's another thing.

[385] And also when you go to...

[386] take your baby on visits.

[387] Now, you can apply for a family room visit, which is the family room on the unit, and you have to apply for this.

[388] And then any parent or family member that's been checked by social services can come and have a family room visit.

[389] And I think you get two hours in a lovely room with a couple of sofas and a telly.

[390] But if you can't get a family room visit, you have to go to the main visiting hall.

[391] Now, they will put the whole prison on lockdown, so nobody can move around the prison until you've escorted your baby to the visitor's hall.

[392] But then...

[393] In the visitor's hall, you know, you are going to be in there with unalivers and, well, all your average villains, I guess.

[394] And also you can take your baby to chapel on a Sunday where, again, there will be unalivers.

[395] So your baby will be raised around unalivers and villains, but they will keep them separate.

[396] So they keep the mothers at the back of the chapel and they do warn.

[397] the prisoners not to approach the babies but if you're like me i see everything as an experience and i thought i knew a couple of women there that had done a life their husbands right and i couldn't judge jen because that could have been me all right that could have been me i could have done that yeah i was just lucky that he didn't he got out of surgery and he was okay so they used used to come over and they always asked you know can we bless your baby they always asked me they never approached without caution or whatever and i always said yeah go on Bless him.

[398] And I remember one lady that unaligned her husband, she rubbed her hands together and she blew on her hands and she just put both of her hands on his head and blessed him.

[399] And I just, there was just an energy, Jen.

[400] You know, if anybody's into their spirituality and divinity, the energy, Jen, I couldn't believe it.

[401] But then she never came up again.

[402] And I think it hit home, you know, what she was missing.

[403] Oh, that could have been the only baby she'd ever seen.

[404] You know what I mean?

[405] So, I mean, people can judge me for that.

[406] But I just thought if I can offer a little bit of a...

[407] you know, release to some of these prisoners by seeing my baby for five minutes and I'm going to do it.

[408] And I just thought it's a good story for the book.

[409] So there you have it.

[410] I'm just trying to think what else was in there.

[411] You know, the facilities were good.

[412] You've got an outdoor area.

[413] So your baby gets outdoor access, which can go out for the majority of the day.

[414] That's about it, really.

[415] You've got your washroom, your TV room, your communal phone, your dining area, high chairs.

[416] It's all pretty clean.

[417] Well, it was extremely clean when I was in there.

[418] So, yeah, that's what it's like raising your baby in prison.

[419] And they get their own canteen sheet where they get the nappies and all their bits and bobs.

[420] So, yeah, they get their own little canteen sheet or commissary sheet, should we say.

[421] Oh, my God.

[422] Yeah, we're definitely not recommending this.

[423] No. it clearly and obviously it was uh still be a struggle bringing up your child inside because of the lost freedom and um you know the right to just be out in fresh air and whatnot um but right I've got a lot of people tuning in and saying what's this uh got to do with Julia and because the name is in the title so I just want to clarify for everyone watching um Julia is in Peterborough prison where Gemma was based um we're just talking about her experience in Peterborough prison she had a child a birth child in well was it in Peterborough prison or it was in a hospital it was in the hospital Yeah.

[424] More than Peterborough Prison.

[425] But, and we're tying it in, obviously, I wanted to hear this birth story because being one of the most, well, the most beautiful yet difficult experience of my life, I was inquiring how she managed to do it with the added pressure of prison.

[426] But, sorry, I've got a lot of comments.

[427] I get the ADHD brain.

[428] I'm like, no, no, no. They're like, oh, Jen's got dark hair.

[429] I didn't recognise her.

[430] I was like, no, you won't.

[431] But no, so with Julia, she would be in a vulnerable person's wing, wouldn't she, right now?

[432] So we'll tie this in before we go back to it.

[433] Just, you know, as it is in the title, thanks for reminding us.

[434] No, absolutely.

[435] I'm happy to tie it in.

[436] We went off on a bit of a tangent, didn't we?

[437] Yeah, so let's add Julia.

[438] No, I like that.

[439] We'll do that for us.

[440] Yeah.

[441] So I think given...

[442] her state of mind and being yeah that she is clear she is vulnerable she is vulnerable she's going through a lot we don't know what's going on and I do think they're going to place her on the vulnerable wing I really do I think she's quite she seems quite calm in nature as well so I think they will put her on the vulnerable wing especially because she's so high profile as well and I do think she will fit in quite well to be fair there might be some girls there that are trying to get information so they can run a story on her when they get out.

[443] But I do think she'll be safe in there for anybody that's worrying.

[444] And it is a very clean prison.

[445] It's one of the newer ones.

[446] It's private.

[447] So Julia should be okay in there.

[448] The only struggle is the communal showers and the food isn't very good.

[449] Yeah.

[450] I wanted to ask, I was thinking about this when I was having a bath this morning.

[451] I was thinking...

[452] Would she have any possible way to have access to watch the podcast with or without the prison officers knowing?

[453] If somebody's got a phone in there, quite possibly, but only if she pays their money or she friends them up.

[454] But I didn't know many women with phones in there.

[455] I think there was one when I was in there.

[456] So I don't know.

[457] But they wouldn't let her use it straight away, Jen.

[458] That is a massive privilege.

[459] And she would have to pay a lot of money.

[460] Yeah.

[461] Yeah.

[462] So obviously money gets you phone access, so she might be able to see.

[463] Because I went with Sean to HMP Ford.

[464] Now, that's a man's prison, Cat C. I think it's Cat C or Cat D. And they had tablets.

[465] i mean they had ensuite showers yeah i thought like it was uh the most luxurious prison i've ever been to obviously but yeah they all had their own style um showers and they had tablets and they were telling me about it these guys sure was doing a talk there and i was like whoa what you could access the internet on these tablets yeah what is the only thing they had was obviously the lack of freedom of being able to, you know, pop down the pub or whatnot.

[466] Yeah, their own rooms, en suite showers and tablets.

[467] I thought this was a living dream for, like, my stepbrother.

[468] He's so lazy.

[469] He's always in the bedroom.

[470] And if he could go his whole life, he'd suit that up.

[471] But no, it's like a real luxury.

[472] So I didn't know whether she was – because what category is Peterborough?

[473] i think it's cat c isn't it is it cat c i think so i'm not do you know what i'm not sure somebody will have to google that because otherwise they'll be coming at me for misinformation so i'm not sure what category it is but no she's not going to have a communal she's not going to have her own shower she has to use the communal showers which aren't very nice and like i've said women do poo in there so there will sometimes be feces in the shower room um due to I don't know what reasons.

[474] Maybe they don't dare do it in front of their cellmate if they've got a cellmate.

[475] So they just do it in the shower.

[476] Whether that'll happen when she's in there, I don't know.

[477] But she, like I said, she will have to use the communal showers and she doesn't get a phone in her room.

[478] She won't have a tablet in her room and she won't have a shower in her room.

[479] She'll have to use the communal phone.

[480] And that won't happen quickly because if she can't remember any phone numbers, then she's going to be stuck.

[481] You know what I mean?

[482] Because they confiscated her phone, haven't they, at the police station?

[483] Of course, yeah.

[484] Only if she can remember a phone number off the top of her head.

[485] Wow.

[486] Yeah.

[487] And so she's so Sean, I know, has been trying.

[488] Well, I think he has had access to be able to write to her with supplying her date of birth and writing to the prison.

[489] Yeah.

[490] She hasn't got Sean's number.

[491] It will just be a case of writing to and from until they have that communication.

[492] Yeah.

[493] Because I think.

[494] what about i'm sorry i've got to be careful because i can't remember what i can and can't say on this podcast to do with information about her um so go on i'll stop right there because i was like yeah um yeah i've got there well it's a stay obviously but no so how long were you in prison with your your son before you were able to be released so i spent about Yeah, I spent about three months on the general population wings.

[495] And then we left when he was nine months old.

[496] So he spent the first nine months of his life behind bars.

[497] It sounds bad, but he went out quite a lot.

[498] He went to the parks.

[499] You still get all your doctor's appointments.

[500] So you can still take your baby to the doctors.

[501] If you trust the nursery staff to take your baby for his injections, his vaccinations, then you can trust them to go.

[502] But I did go on the first two occasions or the first occasion.

[503] And then they took him on the second.

[504] So you still get all the same privileges as you do in the out.

[505] It's no different to say you had to give birth in a hostel or in a women's refuge or a single parent.

[506] You know, you're still going to be under some form of stress.

[507] So although I'm not promoting giving birth in prison, I'm also just trying to lift the stigma of mothers giving birth in prison because it's always frowned upon.

[508] But it shouldn't be because it's no different to giving birth in a women's refuge or a hostel.

[509] You know, it's just.

[510] So happens to be behind bars and it's not in the main prison.

[511] You've got it's almost like a little hostel attached to the main prison.

[512] Yeah.

[513] Did you hear of any difficult stories from women in there who were pregnant at the time?

[514] No, no difficult stories.

[515] I heard of near birth.

[516] So there was occasions where the baby was nearly coming out in on the mother and baby unit.

[517] But they've got the ambulance there and then they would give birth in the ambulance or as soon as they got to hospital.

[518] So there was very near.

[519] occasions where the baby came out yeah but it all depends on the woman you know some women can just spit them out so to speak and others like myself and i don't know how you got on but it took me a long time yeah two days yeah exactly yeah first and then a whole day I was having a chat with a woman yesterday in the salon.

[520] Strange enough, before I knew I was going to do this interview with you, when you're talking about childbirth, I don't know how the conversation, as a woman, it always kind of, when you're both mothers, it swings back to that.

[521] Wherever you go, whenever you're, you know, going to get your nails done, actually shout out Casey Carr and Bristol for the nails, thank you.

[522] But wherever you go, you always get on some chat of how long it took to give birth.

[523] And I honestly thought I was going to be a two -hour job.

[524] yeah in and out and yeah no two days later well it's two weeks in hospital scrape after scrape and he just didn't want to come and then it was the induction that the scrape where they yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the sweet that won't be up five times i had it and he just didn't want to come and then it was just so much drama and and then i've already got people now asking oh when are you gonna have the next and it's like yeah Yeah, give me a chance.

[525] Just give me a chance.

[526] Yeah, yeah.

[527] Cheers.

[528] People don't...

[529] Yeah, go on.

[530] Let's go.

[531] Sorry there.

[532] I was just going to say, people don't realise how much trauma that is for a woman.

[533] Giving birth is a traumatic experience, especially if you get baby blues, you know, afterwards.

[534] And I think we're all guilty getting the baby blues afterwards because our bodies just go through so much, you know.

[535] It is just...

[536] Men will never understand it, let's just say that.

[537] They never do.

[538] They never do.

[539] But, well, obviously, sorry, I've got a few questions in for you now, so I'm going to start asking them.

[540] But if everyone can support Gemma and the work she does, all her links are in the description box below this video.

[541] I thought I'd drop that now.

[542] And if you wouldn't mind giving me a subscribe on my channel, guys, that'd be fantastic.

[543] I like to plug my shit.

[544] So we've got a question from Deborah Cogan.

[545] Gemma, looking back now, what emotional impact did this have on you in the long term?

[546] I appreciate you sharing.

[547] Giving birth in prison or officer greasy?

[548] Giving birth in prison.

[549] We could go with both.

[550] Giving birth in prison, the emotional impact, that's a really fair question.

[551] Yeah.

[552] Giving birth in prison was absolutely fine to me. It didn't cause me any distress or any trauma.

[553] My previous relationship caused me more trauma and stress giving birth with him by my side than it did of me in prison.

[554] I found the experience...

[555] quite lovely and i've got lots of lovely memories with my boy and it's an experience that only him and i shared so i really i really love my prison giving birth in prison experience officer greasy on the other hand left me with a lot of trauma because once i'm tearing up sorry um sorry but you know it was just it was reiterating jen that i was just a piece of meat once again sorry god i don't want to be crying on the internet all the time But it just reiterated to me that I was just a piece of meat.

[556] And I had to go.

[557] I'd just come out of that relationship.

[558] Do you know what I mean?

[559] I'd found a good partner.

[560] But then once again, I met with another monster, you know.

[561] So he ruined it.

[562] You know, he ruined my experience.

[563] Yeah.

[564] Oh, gosh.

[565] Sorry.

[566] Yeah.

[567] That's so tough there.

[568] You've hit the nail on the head.

[569] It's like, that would have been, you spoke.

[570] I've heard you speak, obviously, for, you know, 45 minutes for the last hour about how fantastic it was in there for you.

[571] Sorry, someone just popped that up.

[572] I don't know who did.

[573] I think that's Sean in the background.

[574] But how, you know, how positive the experience was.

[575] But there's that one person, that one piece of S who has just put that, like, negative experience onto you.

[576] That's absolutely horrendous.

[577] Yeah, yeah.

[578] Yeah, but I did get him sacked.

[579] I must add, as soon as I got out of probation, my probation worker said to me, because he tried to keep me in there, Jen.

[580] He tried to get my early release stopped.

[581] He rang my probation worker and said she doesn't want her early release.

[582] Who the hell doesn't want her early release with her son, right?

[583] And my probation worker said, I just want to touch on something.

[584] I had this very strange phone call with this prison officer, right?

[585] And then that was it.

[586] I just broke.

[587] I let loose.

[588] And I said, yeah, this happened and this happened and this happened.

[589] And she marched me to the police station and he got...

[590] let off on leave with full pay until it went to the courts.

[591] He admitted it.

[592] So it did go to court.

[593] He admitted it, but he said it was just an act.

[594] It wasn't full intimacy because I didn't go to the courts because my boyfriend's parents didn't want me to drag my name all through the papers.

[595] I didn't think I could stand up and go through another essay case.

[596] I mean, if you don't know about my previous essay case, please go watch my part one and two.

[597] We'll put that in the description box below this video.

[598] Part one and part two will be in the description box below.

[599] Thank you.

[600] And so he was able to go to court and I'll ping the article because it's all on the internet.

[601] I'll ping the article below when I get off this live.

[602] And he was able to turn it all around and say, I was the seducer, Jen.

[603] I was the seducer.

[604] Even though I just give birth, I had milk leaking.

[605] I've got a picture here.

[606] This is how young I looked when I was in there.

[607] Where are we?

[608] Oh, my God.

[609] This is how young I looked when I was in there.

[610] So do I look like a blooming seducer?

[611] And then the judge said he's a reputable character.

[612] He works in children's schools doing talks around crimes.

[613] How on earth is he a reputable character if he's essaying young girls in the prison system but then doing talks around young girls in schools?

[614] It's the system letting victims down again.

[615] So anyway, listen, he got, took out of his job.

[616] He doesn't hopefully touch woodwork around vulnerable women anymore.

[617] So I did my job.

[618] He's out of that line of work.

[619] So that's all that matters.

[620] Yeah.

[621] Let's hope he stays there because the system have a horrible way of letting these snakes slide back in.

[622] But yeah.

[623] Right.

[624] So the next question.

[625] Right.

[626] Question.

[627] What happens to the baby after you give birth?

[628] Silly question.

[629] I know.

[630] So I presume Pete means.

[631] So you've given birth and the baby gets put on your chest.

[632] Obviously, you have the difficulty where he turned blue and has to be resuscitated.

[633] So maybe what happens when you get put in the recovery section of the hospital?

[634] Is the baby with you at all times like he was with me?

[635] So my baby was in intensive care, so I had to keep going down at certain intervals to breastfeed to put him on the breast.

[636] He was tied up to all the tubes.

[637] But as soon as he come out of intensive care, he was with me until he got his tubes out.

[638] As soon as he got his little tube out, we could go back to the hospital.

[639] Now, for a regular woman that gives birth, if her baby is fit and healthy, they can be back at the prison within four or five hours.

[640] So in a normal circumstance, your baby is with you straight away and your baby will accompany you back to prison in the taxi with the prison officers.

[641] I can see it's Sean doing these lovely messages coming up here at the moment.

[642] So we're talking about, Sean wants me to talk about stalking today.

[643] Obviously, we're here talking about Julia's case and the other popular conversation that is.

[644] But I was having a conversation with Sean earlier and I said, like, slipped to Julia and obviously what she's facing.

[645] Yeah.

[646] And I said, the thing is, I had one of the worst, well, to me, one of the worst stalking incidents I've ever had in my life, where he not only on various occasions, numerous occasions, should I say, threatened to R -word me, break into my house and R -word me. He would attack my house with orange paint.

[647] um he would try and get into my house at night i mysteriously had a window smashed in another address we don't know about that one um i he would buy different phone numbers he was he was constant this guy he would never leave me alone so it started off um this guy just becoming infatuated with me not an ex -boyfriend or anything like that just a random person random person who came to buy a fridge That is so petrifying.

[648] And then he started off by sort of going, I believe he lived on a farm and he was like, I'll, what was it?

[649] I'll bring you some eggs.

[650] And I was like, I don't want chicken eggs.

[651] Cheers mate.

[652] And I was trying to sort of be polite and be like, oh yeah, that's great.

[653] This is what we have to do.

[654] like yeah which goes to officer grease you know sort of comparison there but is you sort of be polite because you think right if i'm not polite something bad can happen i was a single woman i did have my friend live with me down down in devon at the time but we were both you know single females and this this guy sort of appeared in my life and i was like okay right just be polite and you know it would it will go away and um then it developed to obviously over time it was constant calls texas whatnot and i was blocking at this point i was like block so then you buy a new phone and start harassing me again like a new sim card because i think at the time you could get sim cards for like a quid couldn't you yeah yeah yeah clearly doing that it clearly had a bag of sim cards i'm just switching them up because every time i'd um like get a message i was like who's this they'd be like you know who it is so i block it and then again and then i bought one of those ring cameras and that's when my house i could see my house being like him driving past my house to begin with then he chucked orange paint all over my front door once what my friend sat down having our dinner one night and we just heard this big crash out the front of the house so i just ran out and Like there was just orange paint covering everything.

[655] And that was, yeah, because I didn't respond to any of his text messages, of course.

[656] It was absolutely significant.

[657] So how me and Sean were discussing this, turning this into, you know, round to Julia, is I was like, I had all this happen.

[658] And yeah, it was constant for four years of my life.

[659] And the Devon and Cornwall police did nothing.

[660] And the Surrey police, when it happened again, did absolutely nothing.

[661] They don't.

[662] They did nothing.

[663] And then there's Julia who, yes, she, I'm not condemning what Julia did and saying it's okay to turn up at someone's address unannounced.

[664] That in itself is very irresponsible in my eyes.

[665] Now, she, to the level where, she's now in a prison, a woman's prison.

[666] She hasn't even made bail.

[667] It's highly probably unlikely she will.

[668] And she will spend time in prison for going to someone's front garden.

[669] And my stalker's out there walking out and about, probably doing it to another woman.

[670] Because I don't know, matter of fact, my friend asked me the other day, she came over to visit and somehow we got onto the topic a bit.

[671] And I said to her, I...

[672] think what stopped him because he would always send me the odd email up until pregnancy photos were arriving on my instagram because i i was not afraid i was like i'm having an open instagram i think that stopped my stalker from like sending me emails phone calls text messages stuff that is so recent it's only stopped this is what i'm saying i was going to say this is really recent again oh yeah how are you I don't know what it is with me. I've got one of those dark, dark humours where I've been through so much that I go, okay, I can live with that.

[673] It's not as bad as something else.

[674] Yeah.

[675] It's just another bump in the road.

[676] Yeah.

[677] I mean, it did get quiet over the last two years in comparison when it was in the heat of things, i .e. there were attacks on my home, the R -word threats and stuff like that.

[678] But now, I don't know.

[679] So obviously, yeah, when I was pregnant, I think that that's triggered something in a, and I'm not generalising all men, but it triggered something in his brain like, oh, I can no longer harass her because.

[680] She's having a child with someone else.

[681] It's very clear.

[682] But that's what it took.

[683] And then now I haven't heard, you know, touch wood, I haven't heard a thing.

[684] And there was a time where I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to have to hide myself online before I started working with Sean and put myself out there to the internet.

[685] And it got to the point where I went, actually, F you.

[686] Yes.

[687] I'm not doing that in my life from some little.

[688] down in devon yeah who hasn't got a life yeah just clearly likes to try and get i mean he was disgusting i can imagine just a vile person who yeah they always are they're just yeah not well um and yeah he It gives me the creeps talking about it now.

[689] You've got to relive it again.

[690] But it's really important that these things get spoke about.

[691] And then, yeah, there's nothing that's been done about him.

[692] And I guarantee you he's doing it to someone else right now.

[693] Yeah, he's got a new victim.

[694] Let it slip that he had done it to someone else before me. yeah yeah there's a person here he's a predator rising some poor woman's life right now i'm devon cornwall police i'm sorry guys you are useless yeah i'm doing nothing about it i i literally gave them every single fake number his full name all the information and nothing happened no they don't care like when i was moving out of my home in devon with my mother there and started driving around the house and it was just really bizarre wow this guy is a lunatic it needs locking up it's not safe for it to be in public oh my gosh but the police won't do anything Jen because it happens so much this is a daily occurrence it happens every minute somebody is stalked and harassed so that's why they don't look into it because otherwise they've got to look into every single one so they just go oh there's nothing we can do you know it escalates to physical violence But that's the thing.

[695] They only touch us women's cases when it escalates to physical violence.

[696] Or you're six feet under there.

[697] I'm not justifying what she's done again, but her case hasn't escalated to any act of physical violence.

[698] You know, she probably didn't go about it in the right way and, you know, turning up at their house.

[699] I think she was perhaps, I get the feeling she was ill -advised to do that, that he would get attention to then be able to progress with the DNA reports that she wants.

[700] If you keep pounding, you might get somewhere.

[701] But unfortunately that's ended up, you know, ended up with her where she is today.

[702] But as...

[703] I don't know.

[704] It doesn't, to me, sit well that there are plenty of guys walking around and then there's Julia in Peterborough Prison right now.

[705] Yeah.

[706] The women are penalised why the men walk free.

[707] And that's, well, I guess that's the patriarchy.

[708] We are branded as hysterical lunatics, but the men are just able to get a slap on the wrist and, oh, go about your day.

[709] You know what I mean?

[710] But they're going to lock a woman up and brand her as hysterical and mentally ill. she's probably just got complex post -traumatic stress disorder through everything that she's been through uh you know substance as a child forced upon her essay you know if all this is kosher and no wonder she's in the state that she's in because it affects your brain chemistry do you know what i mean but people don't understand this unless you've been through essay or you've been through abuse or you've been through adopt you know you're adopted and you don't know where your parents are and is it the parents that Her own parents are even refusing her DNA.

[711] Is that right?

[712] Did somebody say?

[713] Yeah.

[714] And I read in the newspapers this morning, printed by the Daily Mail, that her parents are now in hiding because of the media retention.

[715] anything the daily mail says i take literally obviously not um but i'd say their parents have probably gone to stay with their mates because they're scared of the media attention or they're scared of something that might come to light either way this there's a real question mark surrounding um julia's background and heritage and her parents aren't giving her the answer which is false to go out and finally the yes you know try and find the answers in let's just say a a manner that isn't right going to you know turning up at the McCann's house whatever anyone might think of the McCann's yeah having someone turn up at your front like door is scary yeah I'm sorry yeah where you want to look about whether you know there is wrong wrongdoing involved here whatever it's yeah it's still unfortunately breaking the law yeah it's a difficult one isn't it It's like we sympathise with her because she's clearly going through a lot, but we can't condone her behaviour and we don't condone her behaviour.

[716] Like you say, if she was ill -advised and she's a vulnerable person and somebody's in her ear saying, do this, it's a good idea, she's been coaxed into doing that.

[717] So then that's not really her fault because she's had somebody in her ear telling her to do that, if that's the case.

[718] So there's lots of there's lots of things at play here.

[719] So people can't, you know, make assumptions.

[720] We have to wait until all the information's out there, you know.

[721] Yeah.

[722] And even at one point, I don't think there will be all the information is correctly.

[723] But I think my gut instinct is telling me this was orchestrated to because Julia did say to.

[724] I can't remember if it was Beverly or someone, but anyway, she said someone close and made arrangements for her little dog to go to someone's for a while.

[725] So she knew she was going to be going somewhere for a while.

[726] Okay.

[727] I don't know the full story behind that, but that's just his say there.

[728] But no, so it's a real strange moment when it comes to stalking here in the UK, clearly, as we've just said.

[729] But you, can we talk about...

[730] you your stalker your ex because I haven't heard that story so he yeah well yeah I could say you did you could say he did stalk me so my ex was very toxic and I should have known from day one that he was no good because he would turn up to my mum's house um drunk and aggressive um It was the love bombing straight away, Jen.

[731] So I'd only been with him like three or four and it was a saviour complex.

[732] So what happened was I was quite vulnerable after I'd been gang essayed by, well, you know, a certain group of people.

[733] And he knew I was vulnerable.

[734] I was in this pub and I met this Irish woman, right?

[735] And then again, grooming.

[736] She goes to me, come to Ireland and be an escort because she could see that I was like downtrodden.

[737] She went, come and be an escort.

[738] I'll look after you.

[739] And my mum said to me, if you go with that woman, you're going to be run round the IRA.

[740] They're going to run you through the IRA and you'll just be a...

[741] trafficked right but i didn't know you know i was vulnerable and so he and he knew this story so he was like i'm gonna save you you're not going to ireland i'm gonna take care of you don't you ever talk to people like that he was you know my savior so i thought oh he really cares you know then he loved bomb me then he turned up to my workplace with an engagement ring after about four weeks five weeks right you know did the whole shebang um you know he'd buy me little gifts it was all You know, it was just tactics, you know, to get to lure me in.

[742] Then he was like, oh, come and move into my house share, which I should have never done.

[743] Soon as I moved in the house share, that was it.

[744] He would kick it off, smashing up the house share.

[745] He tried to, well, I don't know if he wanted to win a live.

[746] Somebody took two knives out of the kitchen drawer and he was wielding these knives through the street trying to get at this lad.

[747] And then the police came and then arrested us both.

[748] Oh, hey, Sean.

[749] Hiya, Sean.

[750] Yeah, keep going, keep going.

[751] I've been listening.

[752] The police come, arrested us both, took us both down.

[753] And it's one thing after another.

[754] And then he just, we had to move to my mum's.

[755] Then I got pregnant.

[756] I should have never done it.

[757] I should have never got pregnant with him.

[758] I don't regret him.

[759] But unfortunately, he's kidnapped my son now.

[760] So my son has now fallen.

[761] into the trap of his father's personality and tactics.

[762] Unfortunately, he's gone the same way according to social services.

[763] I tried in the courts for 15 years to get access to him and he kept moving.

[764] He kept stopping my letterbox contact.

[765] You know what family courts like, guys, if, you know, somebody like me who's been to prison, they take the other person's side, you know, long story anyway.

[766] And then he would turn up to our work, Jen.

[767] I went to the pub one day and he must have been stalking me, Jen, because I went to the pub with two friends.

[768] We finished early because I was the manager at one point.

[769] I was assistant manager.

[770] Then they made me to manager, promoted me, sorry, to manager and me and my friends.

[771] And I said, oh, we'll close up early and we'll nip for a pint.

[772] Now I closed up early so I could nip for a pint.

[773] But he must have been watching my workplace because he came to the White Lion pub.

[774] and dragged me out of the pub and said how dare you go for a drink it was just one thing after another gen and then it would he would the beatings would start and then he used to take the mickey out of me because i love singing you know i was raised in church i was in the choir i like to sing i grew up on a wireless well a wireless i've lived with my grandma too long a radio so i was always singing and then he would take the mickey out me singing he would say i was ugly without makeup and he basically tortured me through my labor uh and pregnancy and then he just beat me hit me and then it came to the point where i went out to the pub we came back after 20 minutes he'd kicked off by this point then there was a huge altercation with him and my two friends i'd gone to go back in the flat and there was a weapon on the floor a knife and i thought he'd already tried to unalive me two nights previous and i was covered in black eyes even when i went to the police station i had uh bruising And so what happened was is I picked up that knife, Jen.

[775] And in that moment, I thought if he comes back in and gets this, it's going to be me. So I thought, right, it's going to be you.

[776] And that's when I did what I did.

[777] But it was only in his arms, guys.

[778] So it wasn't in his torso.

[779] It didn't unalive him.

[780] It was just superficial wounds, so to speak.

[781] Yeah.

[782] But he was, yeah, he's evil.

[783] I don't want to go too into it because we do have a son together.

[784] I don't want to, you know, rock the boat, but he's not a nice person, Jen.

[785] I can tell, I can tell.

[786] I wanted to ask, in your opinion, when does infatuation turn to stalking?

[787] Oh, jeepers.

[788] That's a deep one.

[789] It's amazing.

[790] Yeah, it's immediately, I think, Jen, especially with social media.

[791] They get to know everything about you, don't they?

[792] I think it starts straight away in this day and age.

[793] It starts straight away in this day and age.

[794] So they start online stalking you.

[795] And then the next thing you know, they're at your workplace.

[796] They're ringing your work.

[797] They know your mates.

[798] They message your mates.

[799] They go into your mate's work.

[800] You know, it's a quick process.

[801] It happens straight away.

[802] Yeah.

[803] They become infatuated quite quickly, Jen.

[804] Yeah.

[805] Sean, have you ever had a case of stalking?

[806] No, just trolling is what we get in hackers.

[807] Hackers and trolls.

[808] Yeah.

[809] I see you've been working your way through the questions.

[810] I'm only...

[811] What was the last one you got to?

[812] I got to...

[813] Oh God, I'm still quite far up because I only got to one, two...

[814] Because you've obviously got the new member, one, two.

[815] My screen keeps getting stuck because it's touchscreen.

[816] Yeah.

[817] So after Sugar Plums, comment there.

[818] Okay.

[819] So do you want me to go on to the next one then?

[820] Do you need to go and have a look at Ziggy?

[821] Take care of Ziggy.

[822] Yeah, I'll be listening, but I'll quickly go check in with Ziggy.

[823] Two seconds.

[824] All right.

[825] So Pam.

[826] Hi, Gemma.

[827] I think you're an amazing person considering you've been through so much.

[828] Had a baby in prison.

[829] You're still a lovely, chatty and funny person.

[830] We have to be, Sean.

[831] Well, what do you do?

[832] Do you let it make you or break you, Sean?

[833] You have to let it make you.

[834] You have to.

[835] And having a sense of humour through all the darkness, it just gives you the strength to continue, doesn't it?

[836] And not weigh yourself down with it all.

[837] Yeah.

[838] You've got to laugh.

[839] Tanya wants to know, will Julia get a ban from internet usage while she's incarcerated?

[840] Can she access the internet?

[841] No, you can't access the internet unless, like I say, somebody's got a phone and she offers them a substantial amount of money.

[842] She might get to use that phone, but I don't think that'll happen overnight.

[843] But no, she cannot access the internet whilst incarcerated.

[844] No. So in this prison that Julia's at then, do they allow male officers to strip search females?

[845] No, no. It's always a female.

[846] doing a strip search it's never a mate well it shouldn't be a male whether that happens or not but it shouldn't do it's always a female officer that does a strip search yeah and the second part of this carrie wants to know how the hell can a male officer be in the room of a mother giving birth yeah it has to be one female officer and one male officer that's just the rules at the moment whether this has changed i don't know but it was like this even in 2017 it has to be one female officer and one male officer to balance it out yeah Holly, this love could be so valuable to expecting mothers facing prison, Gemma.

[847] Thank you for sharing your story.

[848] No problem.

[849] Lofty wants to know if this is a private prison or a government -owned prison.

[850] It's a private prison.

[851] HMPP, if there is a private prison.

[852] Yeah.

[853] Sarah's wondering if the guard is still working there, if he should be fired and arrested.

[854] It's absolutely a disgrace.

[855] What happened to you?

[856] Yeah, he's gone.

[857] He's gone.

[858] He's long gone.

[859] He was arrested.

[860] The newspaper article is online.

[861] However, it's wrong.

[862] It's a misinformation because he denies that it was full intimacy.

[863] He said it was just an act, which is completely untrue.

[864] But again, I should have gone to court.

[865] But I will ping it in the comments after this live.

[866] I'll ping the newspaper article.

[867] But he's sacked.

[868] He's not working around young girls, hopefully, anymore, depending on his new job.

[869] Pam, sorry for everything that you have had to go through.

[870] Are you having therapy to help you cope with everything?

[871] No, I've had plenty of therapy and I think my own therapy was better.

[872] And yeah, let's just leave that where it is.

[873] Yeah.

[874] All right.

[875] So, Steve, the Julia thing could be planned.

[876] They could ban her from the UK, just thinking out loud.

[877] Yeah.

[878] From what Fran said, a lot of the foreign nationals, when the cases are concluded and they've been found guilty, they do get deported and banned from the UK.

[879] So that is a possibility with Julia.

[880] Yeah.

[881] Will Julia get any counselling in prison, as this must be so traumatising for her?

[882] It's a long waiting list, so she could get it.

[883] It's a possibility, but it won't happen overnight.

[884] Everything in prison is very long -winded.

[885] You have to wait, so it's a waiting game.

[886] Yeah.

[887] Jen Hoppo, did you show Sean the pics?

[888] Laugh, laugh, laugh, smiley, smiley, smiley.

[889] I forgot to show you these amazing pics.

[890] It's on my email from Kazza.

[891] I will show you after this stream.

[892] I don't know whether I can put them online.

[893] But they are funny.

[894] Yeah, if you're asking, let's not.

[895] All right, will Julia attend school?

[896] Education.

[897] Yeah.

[898] Yeah, so she can...

[899] request for education or a work placement, whichever she decides to do.

[900] There's also a gym facility, so she can also apply to use the gym.

[901] So anything she applies for will come, but just time, you know, it's a matter of time.

[902] Yeah.

[903] Yeah.

[904] What's the update on Julia?

[905] Has she been detained?

[906] So if you've just learned about Julia's story, you know, in the last week, it's been the craziest, one of the craziest weeks of Julia's life.

[907] mojo joe she got arrested at bristol airport on wednesday i believe and then she was shipped up to leicester where is the legal jurisdiction of the mccans she had a hearing and now she's been moved to hmp peterborough because she's been charged with four offenses stalking and harassment of the mccans not just the parents but the siblings as well and that is that's through going to the house That is through attending a vigil and that is from sending messages through Instagram, through WhatsApp and telephone calls, etc. So Julia is not going home anytime soon.

[908] The latest news is we're trying to get a court hearing for her this week so she can get bailed to my house so she can fight a case from the outs.

[909] It's a lot easier to fight your case from the outs than have to deal with the raw survival of...

[910] being in the jail.

[911] How do we ask Gemma questions?

[912] Debbie wants to know.

[913] So Debbie, if you are on this live, just put the question in the live chat because we're about to conclude it actually.

[914] So get your final questions in folks.

[915] But if you're watching this on a replay, all of Gemma's links, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram are in the description box.

[916] A lot of people said they subscribed to Gemma last night.

[917] So please continue to do so.

[918] And you can ask Gemma questions on Instagram, et cetera.

[919] Just go right over there.

[920] Did you get a few people contacting you last night, Gemma?

[921] A couple.

[922] Not too many, though.

[923] Yeah, I think everybody asked their questions in the comments.

[924] Yeah.

[925] Surely what happened to you is against your human rights.

[926] What do you say to that, Gemma?

[927] What happened to me?

[928] Well, which part?

[929] I think referring to the president.

[930] Officer.

[931] Oh, the officer.

[932] Yeah.

[933] Yeah, but what can you do?

[934] It's a catch -22.

[935] If you tell the other officers it's happening to you.

[936] you will be accused and blamed and slapped with an extra charge because you'll be seen as a promiscuous, hypersexual teen ager because it always goes to the victim.

[937] You know, blame goes to the victim.

[938] Human rights don't exist in many prisons quite often.

[939] When I said to a guard, how did they get away with the violations of the human rights where I was at?

[940] Dead rats in the foods, men's people getting unalive, etc. The guard said to me, the public has no idea what's going on in here and they don't give a crap about prisoners.

[941] So that's how they get away with these things because the media leads the public to believe prisoners are all...

[942] you know pdf files serial killers r worders but it's not a lot of mentally ill people a lot of drug addicted people more than half my friends in prison were veterans come back from wars didn't get any help for the trauma yeah medicated on street medication ended up in prison did jemma ever get any compensation due to the officer No. Can I be totally honest with you here?

[943] I would never accept any compensation from an SA case because to me it's dirty money.

[944] Does that make sense?

[945] Yeah.

[946] No, I just couldn't.

[947] I couldn't.

[948] Yeah, no, no, no. It just wouldn't sit right with me. It's like inheritance.

[949] I don't want to touch my nan's inheritance.

[950] I don't want anything from it because she's caused that much trouble to my mother.

[951] It would just be...

[952] dirty money to me. I'm not interested, Sean.

[953] I don't need other people's money.

[954] You're a very proud woman.

[955] I like that.

[956] Yeah, got to be.

[957] Standing on principle.

[958] So what do we think of the Dr. Fia revelation?

[959] So Raccoon, I only became aware of Dr. Fia through Julia.

[960] And the things that she's saying are quite bizarre.

[961] She said that Sinclair doesn't exist.

[962] And I've been speaking to him all week.

[963] This is Julia's media representative who's raised her legal counsel.

[964] So how can I take seriously someone who's saying a guy doesn't exist who I've been speaking to all week?

[965] And then Ron sent me some other things this lady had said.

[966] And they were just completely off the wall, just like plucked out of the thinner, doing no research at all.

[967] So I can't take this person seriously.

[968] They're not worth giving any of our attention.

[969] There are some dark forces at work right now trying to attack all of us for helping Julia.

[970] and trying to attack Julia.

[971] And people are sending me links and videos.

[972] And I say, don't give these people any attention, folks.

[973] That's what they crave.

[974] They're just putting out toxic vibes.

[975] And when you're trying to destroy other people or trying to destroy their stories, negative energy.

[976] And all they do is attract toxic followers.

[977] And in the end, these people self -destruct.

[978] They need to hold up mirrors to themselves and ask themselves, why?

[979] They are, you know, they've got this toxic energy.

[980] Yeah.

[981] Yeah.

[982] No, because if Julia, I know what it's like to be newly incarcerated.

[983] And if we could save Julia from having to go through the stress of just waking up every day and go through the horrors of what Gemma and Fran have described, I don't give a shit about the press giving my address.

[984] If I could save someone through that, that will be some good karma.

[985] When I'm, you know, at the end of my life.

[986] No, and I'll be there beating them up with a chair leg.

[987] Yeah, yeah.

[988] You're like, get off.

[989] Can Amnesty International help in these cases?

[990] Yeah, good luck with that, folks.

[991] I wrote to them when I was in the jail.

[992] Yeah, useless.

[993] It's a dream world.

[994] It is a dream world.

[995] You think they're going to...

[996] Gemma, you are a very strong and principled person.

[997] Yeah, 100%.

[998] Thank you.

[999] Yeah.

[1000] The Atwoods are being sweet.

[1001] They've earned their blessings, are willing to share Gemma as well.

[1002] Times are changing.

[1003] Thank you, Lofty Morgaine.

[1004] And yeah, these people, Mariana, when they are attacking us and Julia, they're just showing their true colours, that they've got this dark side to them.

[1005] So there's no point in responding to them because they just feed off it and clickbait us.

[1006] And they're craving the attention.

[1007] That's why they're attacking us.

[1008] So there's no point in lowering ourselves to their levels by acknowledging the idiocy.

[1009] Truth tellers try to be shut down.

[1010] No, thank you, Mojojo.

[1011] And yeah, so we're not going to acknowledge any of these other people who people are asking about in the chat.

[1012] I think we've zipped for all the questions there.

[1013] If there's anything else, get them in now, folks.

[1014] I'm going to interrupt Sean now.

[1015] What inspired you to speak out then, Gemma?

[1016] I was just sick of feeling ashamed.

[1017] I've always been a strong person, but there was always this cloud of shame hanging over me. And I thought, do you know what?

[1018] No. And then I got on Instagram and I said, hey, Sean, check me out.

[1019] Do you want to share my story?

[1020] And he said...

[1021] Yeah, go on then.

[1022] So I was like, boom, and there we go.

[1023] And do you know what?

[1024] It's the best thing I ever did because I have had over 3 ,000 messages from survivors who were groomed because I was always ashamed of my grooming story, Jen.

[1025] And even when I first spoke to Sean, I didn't come out with a grooming.

[1026] I came out with my essay.

[1027] But I was always taught that I'd brought it on myself by going with these lads in the first place.

[1028] And then it led on to this targeted attack or alleged targeted attack, right?

[1029] And I thought, how many more people are sitting?

[1030] at home thinking i've been through the same and then lo and behold so many girls and then even some girls have gone oh do you know what i didn't even know that was grooming but now i've heard your story and now i know it was grooming you know this is how it gets us you don't even know you're being groomed and women in the 30s and 40s now saying to me oh i didn't realize that yeah i was groomed And I was groomed.

[1031] And then I was speaking to my friend on TikTok Live the other day who also gave birth in HMP Peterborough.

[1032] And then she said, yeah, and I was nearly gang essayed in a taxi firm and her mates used to go to the takeaway shops.

[1033] It's an epidemic.

[1034] It's these grooming gangs are operating at warp speed and it will continue to cover up and continue to happen unless people like myself take to the stand and say these swines are operating.

[1035] You know what I mean?

[1036] Yeah, and the government's protecting them.

[1037] They're getting votes out of it.

[1038] We had a few people talk about the mechanics of it.

[1039] So Sammy's asking, the lady got arrested with Julia.

[1040] There's all kinds of theories swirling about this lady, but let's just assume for now that Julia acted of her own free will, and perhaps this lady knew Julia was going to do certain things and couldn't stop her, but was there.

[1041] to kind of minimize any damage or shield her.

[1042] And this lady ended up getting arrested with her.

[1043] So there was some good intention, I've been told, from this lady to protect Julia from her own actions that she's chose to do.

[1044] We don't know what she's doing.

[1045] I'm writing a letter to her right now.

[1046] I'm going to get this put in the mail tonight.

[1047] And hope to hear from her soon and get her prison number.

[1048] And anyone else who wants to write to her, it's in the description box below this video.

[1049] where there is the address.

[1050] You've got to put Julia's name, date of birth, and then the prison address.

[1051] So I think we're nearly through all the questions.

[1052] Any final thoughts, folks?

[1053] I mean, you're doing wonderful work, Gemma.

[1054] I'd love to have you actually come down and have a proper sit down because I hate the computer things.

[1055] But we'll definitely arrange that.

[1056] Yeah, definitely.

[1057] Because there's so much you're sorry that...

[1058] I know, obviously, you sat down with Sean twice now, but I've got a feeling you've got...

[1059] a few more hours at least yeah i am especially women's perspective hey yeah yeah yeah thank you thanks for coming on i have also been asking around um people i've got links to hmp peterborough so i am trying to get this prison number as well asap so We'll keep you posted.

[1060] Oh, should we just cover the fact that let's not ever send the money in?

[1061] Because I've been hounded that that was misinformation.

[1062] And then talking to my friend now, she said, yeah, all the visiting is done through the booking system on the tablet or the computer system.

[1063] They don't do with VOs anymore.

[1064] So that's, you know, my old way of doing it.

[1065] And she said, don't send money in.

[1066] Only use the online system once you've got the prison number.

[1067] So, yeah.

[1068] OK, should we just go with that?

[1069] Yeah, and I'll put the prison link.

[1070] Let me see if I've got the prison link.

[1071] I'll get the link to the prison in the description box in a minute.

[1072] It was put in last night's stream.

[1073] And if you miss that last night's stream with Gemma, when the stream finishes, it will customize you right over to it.

[1074] So stay tuned if you want to watch last night as well.

[1075] Thanks, guys.

[1076] This has been tremendous.

[1077] We appreciate you sharing your information.

[1078] And thanks viewers for all the questions.

[1079] Leave some to Gemma and follow her on her socials.

[1080] Bye.

[1081] Take care, everyone.