405. Anatomy of an (almost) School Shooter | Aaron Stark

[0] This podcast contains graphic discussions about abuse, violence, and self -harm.

[1] Sensitive content may not be appropriate for listeners under 18.

[2] Hello, everyone watching and listening.

[3] Today, I'm pleased to be talking to Mr. Aaron Stark.

[4] You might recognize him from his TED Talk on YouTube, which has got about 13 million views.

[5] Aaron went to some very dark places when he was a kid and a teenager and came from some very dark places.

[6] At one point in his life, he had formulated very detailed plans that related to shooting up a school.

[7] And he decided not to do it.

[8] And what we're talking about, what we're going to talk about, is how he came to make those plans, let's say, what the rationale for it was and the cause of those plans and then also why he decided to back away from the precipice and what the consequence of that backing away has been.

[9] So Mr. Stark, you turned your life around.

[10] Yes, sir.

[11] Okay, so let's go back to when it wasn't turned around.

[12] Now, you've been touring around and talking to people for how long, how long have you been in the public eye?

[13] About five years.

[14] About five years.

[15] How old are you now?

[16] 44.

[17] Okay.

[18] And so, well, Why don't you just tell us the story?

[19] And then I'll start delving into, well, the details.

[20] Well, so I was almost a school shooter.

[21] When I was really young, I went through a really violent, aggressive family.

[22] My first five years are like living in a Stephen King movie.

[23] My birth father was the most violent, a brave person I've ever met.

[24] Beatings and rapes and just violence and aggression the entire time, running from him across state to state, trying to get away.

[25] when my mom finally escaped him got with my stepdad and went from Stephen King to Scarface, so it went from extreme violence to crack cocaine and crime And you were about six at that point?

[26] I was about five or six at the time, yeah.

[27] And I had an older brother who's two years older than I was and so we were very nomadic.

[28] I went to 30 or 40 different schools.

[29] We were constantly moving from state to state running away from the cops or the social workers or counselors or anybody trying to intervene and lived a very nomadic lifestyle and went from early on being a really shy, sensitive, sweet kid to like reading comic books and superheroes and that kind of stuff to, in my early teen years, really adapting that the way to survive was I'm going to be the aggressive one.

[30] I knew, I figured early on that I was the dirty one, I was the nasty one, I was the worthless, I was the outcast, I was the one that was pushed off.

[31] Early on, meaning when?

[32] Six, seven years old.

[33] My older brothers...

[34] So you were assuming it was you?

[35] Oh, yeah, it was me. My older brother, too, as older than I was, because of my family dynamic, he had a lot of responsibility.

[36] He had to be the early man of the house really early on to the extent where he had, at 12 years old, had to handle the sheriff throwing all of our stuff in the front lawn and evicting us when my parents are getting drugged out and drunk at the bar, and we can't find him for days.

[37] And he has to find us a place to stay.

[38] And I was the responsibility to get to take care of two years.

[39] So he was 12, I was 10.

[40] And so he was just another kid going through abuse the same way I was.

[41] but he had to he, I was a responsibility he had to take care of so while he was shouldering all the responsibility I'm like the burden and so that was kind of the identities we adapted he was the one that took care of everything I was the one that was the broken thing that needed to be taken care of all the time and as that grew older I became more and more toxic going into my early teen years why do you think there wasn't enough responsibility also for you like why do you think the rules between you and your brother had to be split that way.

[42] I don't know if they had to be, but that's just kind of the way they ended up being.

[43] I, the, um, he, just because of our personalities, he was more of a hands -on kid.

[44] He, he was a gear head, too.

[45] His, his likes were more physical.

[46] He liked doing things like building things, taking stuff apart, fixing cars, stuff like that.

[47] I was more intellectual.

[48] I liked reading and loved, I would read like the Bull Finch's mythology textbook when I was four or five years old.

[49] My first book report was on Stephen King's Miserables.

[50] when I was in kindergarten.

[51] And because I read really early on, super early.

[52] I was reading full books by the time I was five years old.

[53] And the, so I was, I would suck in information.

[54] So that was my escape.

[55] My escape went all the crime and the violence and people beating each other and digging through crack rock for crack rock behind me was going on.

[56] I would have my nose dug into an X -Men comic book.

[57] My brother would be into taking apart his skateboard, putting a skateboard back together.

[58] So he was more oriented to do it, Practical things in the world.

[59] And so when, as that grew old, he was the one that had to do like, well, the car's broken, and Jake's going to try to fix it.

[60] This thing's busted.

[61] Jake's going to fix it.

[62] I didn't fix anything.

[63] I was off to the side reading a book.

[64] I was out.

[65] Like, I wasn't utilitarian.

[66] So he was older and more practically oriented.

[67] Mm -hmm.

[68] Mm -hmm.

[69] I wasn't utilitarian to anything.

[70] Okay.

[71] So you said you were a sweet kid, but that things started to change, well, maybe about when you were 10, if I got that right?

[72] Oh, earlier.

[73] I'd say seven, eight, nine.

[74] Yeah, because of the way that we moved, we were constantly moving from Colorado to Oregon back and forth, and this was the late 80s.

[75] So it was before the age of the internet.

[76] It was really easy to make up your entire personality and make up a whole new identity.

[77] So my parents would get a job in a house out here in Colorado and then get evicted, lose their job, move to Oregon, lie about their entire resume, lie about their entire history, get an entire new house and everything, and then wash, rinse, repeat every couple of months.

[78] Right, right.

[79] And so we were always moved back and forth.

[80] And they were doing that so that their scams could continue?

[81] It was either their scams could continue or they would evade accountability.

[82] They were trying to...

[83] So that sort of behavior is generally rarer among women.

[84] You said your birth father was a particularly nasty piece of work.

[85] Yes.

[86] And so did you have any sort of quality relationship with your mother or your father?

[87] At that time, yes.

[88] Early on with my father, yes.

[89] My mom at that time was much more like Linda Hamilton from T2.

[90] Okay, I don't, oh, yes.

[91] From Terminator.

[92] She was the survivalist mother who, like, to the point where when my father was so violent and chasing us around, we were bouncing from batter woman shelter to batter woman shelter to get away from him.

[93] And my mom would have things like safety words.

[94] So if we were out about, if she just said the word pocket in conversation, that was a safety tag.

[95] So she could be at the grocery store.

[96] I'm like, oh, $2 .95, here we go, pocket.

[97] If that word came out of her mouth, I was to grab the back pocket of her pants and we need to get out right now.

[98] That meant my father was in sight.

[99] There was trouble.

[100] We need to go now.

[101] We need to move.

[102] And so it was that kind of survivalist.

[103] And that was the first five years of my life.

[104] So why do you think your mother stayed with your father during that five -year period?

[105] During that five -year period, I think that from my stories that I heard, he was a Vietnam vet.

[106] And when he left, to go to the war, he was a good guy.

[107] When he came back, he was kind of a monster.

[108] Oh, yeah.

[109] And so that was, I guess they were together.

[110] Was she with him?

[111] before he went to Vietnam?

[112] She was.

[113] She already established a relationship with someone who was then damaged by the war.

[114] It was then damaged by the war.

[115] Came back and was completely a monster and was just violent and got into, he was epically violent.

[116] Was he hurt physically?

[117] Do you know during the war?

[118] He wasn't hurt physically during the war?

[119] I don't think, I know he was hurt psychologically during the war.

[120] Do you know why?

[121] Do you know what happened?

[122] He was a gunner on a ship.

[123] He was one of the ones that would load the bomb, the ammunition to shoot up off into Cambodia.

[124] And he was on the ship, and one of his best friends got his head taken off right next to him.

[125] Just the ammunition was blue his best friend away right next to him, and that messed him up.

[126] But that pales in comparison of the trauma he suffered from his family.

[127] My father, from his own family, was circumcised at 15 years old.

[128] Okay, so what does that mean exactly?

[129] They circumcised him.

[130] They cut off the foreskin of his penis at 15 years old because they caught him masturbating.

[131] I see.

[132] So that's just an example of the abuse that my father went through.

[133] So that's, abuse, in my opinion, is generational.

[134] It's trauma that rolls downhill.

[135] And from both sides of my family, there were giant boulders of trauma that were rolling downhill.

[136] From my father's side, there was that.

[137] From my mother's side, I had a pedophile great -grandfather, a pedophile uncle rapist.

[138] There was a lot of violence and aggression on both sides.

[139] On both sides.

[140] What about alcoholism?

[141] Lots of alcoholism, mental disorders, lots of, a lot of personality disorders, a lot of drug abuse.

[142] yeah well patterns of behavior are imitated right consciously and unconsciously and what that means is that if there is a pattern of pathology in a family it will echo down the generations until someone digs into the underbelly of the problem sorts it out and stops it and then at least in principle that'll stop the intergenerational transmission there are genetic predispositions but They're complex, so you can have a genetic predisposition to depression, which would mean that you're likely to be higher in the trait neuroticism, which is a trait associated with negative emotion.

[143] There are also heritable tendencies towards antisocial personality.

[144] So if you're extroverted and disagreeable, and even worse, if you're extroverted, disagreeable, and unconscientious, if you take a pathological turn, you'll tilt likely in a criminal direction.

[145] And some of that has a heritable ailment, too.

[146] It doesn't mean that wrongdoing or the proclivity for criminal behavior is heritable precisely.

[147] It means that we inherit different patterns of traits that predispose us to different categories of temptation, you might say.

[148] Yeah, the way I presented to my family is that we are taught different languages of how to express our emotions.

[149] And if your vocabulary of emotional expression is violence and aggression, then that's the language you're going to teach everybody else.

[150] Yeah, well, it also means that you don't know the alternatives.

[151] Precisely.

[152] And so it's really hard to express yourself in a calm, rational manner, if the only language you speak in your head and outside and in your world is violence, aggression, and toxicity.

[153] It's really hard then to assess.

[154] Yeah, well, it's also difficult for people who are temperamentally more aggressive to learn how to integrate that aggression in a socialized manner.

[155] So if you have a small child who's extroverted and disagreeable, they're going to push you, and they're going to test constantly.

[156] And now, if you take a firm tack and you're sophisticated, you can help those children become socialized and competitive, in which case their proclivity to push can be, well, usefully channeled into competitive victory, let's say.

[157] But it's hard to do that, especially if the kid's particularly pushy.

[158] And I see that proclivity to push actually manifests itself in a large scale from my estimation and from what I've seen doing what I do.

[159] And kids who are in that dark place that are in that gray area of depression that might fall into the dark even further that are trying to reach out for help.

[160] Yeah.

[161] The people that reach out to help too, they're going to test.

[162] They're going to push.

[163] Yeah, right.

[164] Are you fake and funk?

[165] Are you lying like everybody else in my life said they were here for me and then they disappeared when everything got hard.

[166] Yeah, yeah.

[167] And so they're going to really test and test and test until you prove consistency.

[168] And so that proclivity to test, if you don't address that early on, it just sprouts and grows.

[169] Right, it's going to be exacerbating by betrayal.

[170] Yeah, it turns into a main defense mechanism and lifestyle that you're going to push and be aggressive to everybody until you can see that one person that actually can stand there.

[171] Yeah, well, people who have been betrayed and rejected sufficiently can get to the point where they won't make a bond with anyone, right?

[172] There was research conducted, I can't remember the people who did it, on children who were separated very young for too long from their parents.

[173] And they go through a period of protest that's very intense to begin with.

[174] Of course, they're distressed about being separated.

[175] And then the protest behavior decreases, but it'll emerge sporadically.

[176] And then that'll decrease.

[177] And once the protest behavior has been eradicated completely, it's very difficult, even if the parent comes back, to reestablish contact.

[178] The children put up a barrier, which is akin to the barrier that you're describing, that's very difficult to pierce.

[179] And as you said, what will happen to children who abandon is that because they've been betrayed repeatedly and deeply and hurt very badly, is they will test like mad to see if they can break the bond to see if it's reliable.

[180] And that can actually get to the point you see this in condition.

[181] like borderline personality disorder where the person will test everyone so completely that no one can actually put up with it.

[182] Yeah, and I see that quite a lot.

[183] And I think that the more we can, that's the advice that I give when I get doing my talks is that be that island or normal in the ocean of chaos for that person.

[184] That person is, everybody, when I was in that spot, everybody in my life thought that I was either a monster or a project.

[185] You either wanted to fix me or you were afraid of me. And if neither one of those were a person.

[186] and so yeah well a project is often something that people undertake for their own self glorification precisely and and if i'm if i'm just a mark on your checklist and i'm and i'm not actually i'm an activity to you i'm not i'm not a person you're engaging with an irrational response and listening to my and and having a rational reasonable discussion and discourse i'm an activity on your checklist and that means that i'm automatically under you when we have activities and we're doing things that activity is a thing we are doing well that's the toxicity of pity Mm -hmm.

[187] The toxicity of pain.

[188] It's demoralizing to that reason.

[189] It is.

[190] And the thing that my best friend did, and he's still my best friend to this day, was he was the one person that saved my life by treating me like I was a respectful person that deserved him.

[191] When did you meet him?

[192] I met him when I was 10.

[193] Okay.

[194] So did you have friends before it being, before the age of 10?

[195] I, not really.

[196] Well, it's hard with an itinerant lifestyle.

[197] Yeah, yeah, I didn't have any real connections.

[198] And then even after that, once they slightly stabilized in my teen years, the moving down slowed down a little bit, was able to stay places for slightly longer.

[199] I didn't really gather friends.

[200] I got what I called disaster groupies.

[201] They were people that wanted to kind of live vicariously through my darkness because they didn't really have anything like me in their world.

[202] So we were, there was a bunch of...

[203] Was that like a group of outcasts?

[204] Yeah, it was a bunch of team kits.

[205] Yeah, so me and maybe one or two others that had a similar kind of background because looking back, it was a bunch of depressed kids trying to navigate depression without any adult supervision.

[206] But it was, in reality, what was going on was there was a house that one of my friends, one of my classmates at school, his dad paid the rent, his dad bought all the food, but his dad didn't live there.

[207] So it was just my 16 -0 friend and his little brother that stayed there.

[208] And so that turned into just a flock house for a bunch of kids.

[209] Right.

[210] And so that was, everybody else that was there.

[211] There's no guidance.

[212] No guidance whatsoever.

[213] And so, So that turned into where all the other kids had houses and had families and could go there.

[214] They were, they were, they were trying to find their own way.

[215] These are all the other kids in the group.

[216] They were like rebelling and stuff.

[217] I didn't have a house to go back to you.

[218] I was going to go back to sleep in the field behind Casabinita and Denver.

[219] I was, I was going to go try to steal free samples out of the grocery store and evade my criminal family.

[220] If I did, if I did hit my family's house, it was to grab a couple, a little bit of clothes so I could gather before the violence started.

[221] So I wasn't going home to any stability I was going to go live on the streets And I was going to go try to survive They all got to go home to their houses And so in that You were in this right like neck deep And they're playing with it Yeah, exactly Exactly They were playing it with it I was living it fully And that That kind of They were like pushing you further off On the edge It was like a real life Reddit forum It was like Were you getting rewarded so to speak For your more The darker parts of your personality?

[222] rewarded, so to speak, in a social sense, where it's like, it turns into like a party favor almost.

[223] Like, let me tell you the craziness of what happened to my family.

[224] Yeah.

[225] Yeah, I had a friend like that who was extraordinarily comedic, and he was probably the funniest person I've ever met in my life.

[226] And it got, at one point, it got to be a burden to him because that's what people expected.

[227] They expected it be on and funny all the time.

[228] Yes.

[229] Yes.

[230] I've had that time where I'm at a party and like, oh, tell me what craziness your family went through today.

[231] I'm like, I don't want to talk about.

[232] about it, dude.

[233] I got cuts in my arms from it.

[234] Like, I don't want to talk about this pain right now.

[235] Yeah.

[236] But it would turn into the, to the, to the fiction.

[237] But so when we're talking about that, that leads into the toxicity of what fed my own anger, toxicity and depression with going into that spot.

[238] Because I, by that point, when I, that was, I started doing that when I was 14 years old.

[239] Okay, what year is this?

[240] So I was 14 years old, I was born in 1979, so we're talking, 93.

[241] 93?

[242] Okay, just to place it.

[243] Just to place it.

[244] And you're in Denver?

[245] at this point?

[246] Yep, Denver.

[247] And you're 14 years old.

[248] That's when I finally left home because I couldn't deal with the violence and the crime and the beatings constantly and watching my mom stab my uncle in the gut with a doorknob.

[249] If you take apart a doorknob, the inside gear parts.

[250] Pointy.

[251] Yeah, that makes a very dangerous weapon.

[252] Don't ever stab someone with it.

[253] And so just violence like that constantly.

[254] And what does constantly mean?

[255] Like living in that fight or flight response every minute of every day.

[256] How often did you see events that were violent in your house?

[257] Three or four times daily.

[258] And what kind of violence?

[259] To the point where, here's an example, I'm sitting in my bedroom, and nobody had seen that I came home from school, or I think I was working a day job.

[260] I think it was 15 or 16 at the time.

[261] I walked in, sat down on my bedroom, nobody heard that I was home.

[262] I picked up the game controller was playing PlayStation for a second, heard a rumble outside my bedroom.

[263] And I stand outside, and my stepdad has my mom up against the wall by her throat, dangling, like, threw two feet off the ground, and he's choking her.

[264] And so I immediately grab him.

[265] I'm large, I just hit hit puberty, so I was big, I was getting into my body, grabbed him, slammed him into the microwave, broke the microwave, pushed him back, stemmed him to the fridge, broke the fridge, pushed it back into the back wall, pushed it back into the back wall, choking him.

[266] And now my mom is smashing plates over the back of my head for me to drop him.

[267] She's attacking me because I got into the fight.

[268] So I drop him, go back to my video game, pick up the gate controller, keep on playing.

[269] Nothing happened.

[270] Like, you go from zero to 60 instantly.

[271] Right, right, right.

[272] And then go back to nothing and do that four or five times a day.

[273] And at the drop of a hat, stuff can go wrong.

[274] And at the same time, dealing with my parents, their method of discipline or any kind of control was to threaten the absolute worst possible thing.

[275] Right.

[276] That's not discipline.

[277] I'm going to beat you terribly.

[278] I'm going to beat you terribly.

[279] I'm going to kick you out.

[280] You're going to be out of here immediately.

[281] And then five minutes later, act like nothing happened.

[282] They wouldn't follow through with any kind of punishment, but act like nothing happened in that conversation at all, and we were just having a good day.

[283] Were you ever disciplined in a manner that you regard as vaguely appropriate?

[284] No, no. And when I was a kid, they had lost the ability to parent me by the time I was 12.

[285] I didn't, they, how are you going to tell me to be home by 10 o 'clock when you're digging through the crack, the carpet of a crack rock in front of me?

[286] Yeah.

[287] Because they didn't think, they didn't want to hide anything.

[288] So they did it all right in front of me. They would pull out the cut, the flat, So why didn't they want to hide anything?

[289] That was just my mom's philosophy.

[290] She just didn't believe it.

[291] So that's like a warped form of honesty.

[292] She, yeah, she would pull out the electric skillet with the water and the vials and the baking poter, and I watched her rock up crack right in front me. I learned how to do it when I was five years old.

[293] I took crack to school as a so -and -tel for one of my schools.

[294] That's not generally a very good idea.

[295] No, it isn't.

[296] Right, but that would also indicate how much you didn't know, how strange what was going on in your family actually was.

[297] And it was part of what built into me that help was apparel, that reaching out for help was a danger.

[298] Okay.

[299] That it was, because I, when I would do that, when I would, I took crack rock to school and then the next day, we're out, we moved out of state.

[300] And so as, as another example, I was really, I was very unkempt, very dirty, very smelly.

[301] I wasn't, I never had clean clothes.

[302] I never changed my, my clothes.

[303] I would constantly be filthy.

[304] And there was one school I was, I was, I went to, I must have been nine, 10 years old, or pretty, really young.

[305] And I went to the school.

[306] And on the walk to the school, I actually defecated in my pants.

[307] kept on going.

[308] I cracked my pants and kept on going to school.

[309] And so I went to school, spent the entire day there.

[310] The next day I go to school and there's a box of stuff for me, okay?

[311] The teacher had brought a box of stuff.

[312] They brought clothes and books and a coat and all these new school supplies.

[313] I take it home and I show my mom like, hey, check this out.

[314] I got all this stuff.

[315] The very next day we're out, we moved away because that's the sign the teacher got too close that someone's investigating too fast and we need to go.

[316] So it turned into a danger signal that if I'm, if I reached out for help.

[317] Someone's attending to you.

[318] If I reached out for help, That meant that the police might get involved.

[319] My parents might go to jail.

[320] My brother might go to foster care.

[321] I might go to foster care, all because I tried to get help.

[322] Right, right.

[323] So, okay, so let's go back to between one and five.

[324] You talked a little bit about your mom and your dad.

[325] You said your dad was particularly damaged in Vietnam.

[326] Your mom had established a relationship with him before he went.

[327] So I imagine she felt somewhat beholden to him.

[328] And also, I would imagine maybe she loved him.

[329] Certainly she would have felt sorry for him when he came back because he was so damaged.

[330] And so how did they, how did the two of them spiral into the trouble that they had?

[331] And then when did you and your brother come along?

[332] So, were they married?

[333] They were married.

[334] They were married.

[335] By the time I was born, the extreme violence had already started.

[336] So I'm not sure about how that spiraled in.

[337] I have memories early on of my father sleeping on the couch.

[338] And my mom realizing he's finally asleep, so she picked up a two by four and beat him bloody, He'd beat him almost until he was dead because she tried to escape.

[339] And she went, so she beat him.

[340] How old do you think you are?

[341] I was four.

[342] And you can remember that.

[343] I remember him beating, I remember him laying on the couch and hers over him slanting into him with a two by four.

[344] I remember that.

[345] And then us going.

[346] And but then he found us.

[347] And the - Okay, you left, but he found us.

[348] And he would chase us down.

[349] So there was a, there's a, there's a distinct memory I have of us.

[350] in a batter woman shelter.

[351] Me and my mom and my older brother were living in a badder woman shelter.

[352] And me and my brother are playing outside.

[353] And a car pulls up and my dad kidnaps me and my brother.

[354] It takes us.

[355] Convinces me particularly to get into the car.

[356] I'm pretty sure my brother just followed us.

[357] I just get in the car because it's my dad.

[358] And so he takes us and then calls the batter woman shelter, talks to my mom, tells my mom that one of us are dead and the other one's going to be dead.

[359] If she doesn't show up at this restaurant to meet him.

[360] And so she, against the protest, of the batter woman shelter, of course.

[361] She goes there to meet him at this restaurant.

[362] And when she gets there, and I know the story, both vivid recounts from her from the story and from news clippings that we had growing up.

[363] So she gets to the restaurant, and he's there, and he pulls, they're arguing, and he flips the table over in the argument and pulls out his classic weapon, which was a cross -shaped, X -shaped tire.

[364] That was his, that was a weapon choice.

[365] So we picked that up and went to go hit her with it.

[366] And right then everybody else in the restaurant pulled out guns and pointed at him because the bad at a woman shoulder called the head and filled it with undercover police officers.

[367] And so I had had a news clipping when I was a kid of my dad getting led out of a restaurant with shotguns at his head.

[368] Are your mom and dad still alive?

[369] My mother is.

[370] My father, I don't know.

[371] And my stepdad died in 2015.

[372] Do you still see your mom?

[373] No, I haven't spoken to her since I came out with my story.

[374] Last time I talked to my mom, I had just left a live TV show appearance in Denver.

[375] I was having a really good moment.

[376] I just was on live TV for the first time.

[377] Took my daughter with me, just you got to see a TV studio, so I was having a cool little.

[378] How many kids do you have?

[379] Four.

[380] Four kids.

[381] How old are they?

[382] 23, 2016, and 12th.

[383] The two older are my step, 16 is my life from my age.

[384] And you're married?

[385] 13 years.

[386] 13 years.

[387] And how has your marriage been?

[388] Great.

[389] Yeah, yeah.

[390] Well, congratulations.

[391] I am as happy as can be, and I successfully broke the cycle.

[392] My family doesn't have any of the trauma that I went through.

[393] Okay, well, We'll get into how you did that.

[394] Okay, so now back when you're little, your mom and dad are in a very violent relationship.

[395] They're married.

[396] Your dad obviously wants you guys around for some reason.

[397] I think it was more to control her.

[398] I didn't think I had anything to do with us, because once we were gone, he didn't care.

[399] He never came to contact.

[400] I never had any time where dad tried to reach out.

[401] I never had any of those loving conversations.

[402] I don't have any loving memories with my father.

[403] Okay, so you had no relationship.

[404] The very first memory I have of my entire life, where I start my life is me laying on my bloody mom's body looking up at my dad screaming on him, you just killed my mom.

[405] Oh, yeah.

[406] That's where I started.

[407] That's not a good friend.

[408] Alfred Adler, a famous psychologist, he believed that those first memories in some ways are determinative, like, that they sort of set the frame.

[409] And so that's a hell of a first memory.

[410] Yeah, yeah.

[411] Now, you had your older brother, did you have a relationship with him?

[412] I did.

[413] We were pretty close growing up.

[414] Okay.

[415] So you had a male role model.

[416] the house who wasn't completely pathological.

[417] Do you see your brother?

[418] I haven't talked to him since I started talking about it.

[419] But that side of the family attacks me not because I'm saying something that's not the truth, but just because I'm talking.

[420] And your brother as well doesn't feel that that's appropriate?

[421] Because I'm, because I'm making my mom cry.

[422] Because I see.

[423] And so he feels that's inappropriate in relationship to your mother.

[424] Does he still see your mother?

[425] I believe so.

[426] Yeah.

[427] I don't know.

[428] I haven't spoken to any of them.

[429] I haven't spoken to that side of the family in five years.

[430] Five years.

[431] Okay, so when you're little, how do you survive between one and five?

[432] Like you have your brother, so that's definitely a plus.

[433] Okay, and you said that you were a very early reader.

[434] So you escaped into the world of fiction and reading.

[435] Yep.

[436] Comic books and mythology.

[437] Did you do well in school?

[438] So I tested off the charts in my tests, but I didn't do any of my assignments.

[439] Okay.

[440] I never did any work.

[441] Well, that's not surprising.

[442] Well, first of all, that's not all that atypical for smart kids, but you lived in a pretty chaotic environment.

[443] So it would have been quite surprising had you managed to buckle down and do your work.

[444] Did you pride yourself on your intellect?

[445] I did.

[446] I did.

[447] I would carry around both into mythology with me all the time, or giant staffs of X -Men comic books, or the complete works of Shakespeare, and just read voraciously.

[448] And I loved doing, like, oral reports and book reports.

[449] And when I was in high school, one at the final high school, North High in Denver, the only two classes I ever, actually attended were English class and choir class.

[450] I would skip every other day.

[451] And I even failed those classes because of attendance rules.

[452] Once you miss four days, you fail this semester.

[453] And I would only attend class once every three weeks or so.

[454] But the classes I would go to were English class and choir.

[455] Why choir?

[456] Choir, because I think that actually has a superpower when it comes to kids who are depressed.

[457] Did you sing?

[458] I did.

[459] I still do.

[460] I still love singing.

[461] And I was in statewide choir and citywide choir and 16 personal a cappella choirs.

[462] I would always go whenever all the schools, I would go to, I would go to whatever the advanced choir was and try out for it.

[463] Because that's what I wanted to do.

[464] What did they make of you in the choir?

[465] Because you said you were like an unkempt kid, you're dressed badly, you're dirty.

[466] The teachers always put me in.

[467] I went to Oregon one time, and I managed as a freshman in high school to, through a tryout, make it into the senior acapella choir.

[468] It was just a 16 -person archipel choir only for seniors.

[469] And I was a freshman.

[470] So you had literature and music to save you.

[471] Yep.

[472] Did you listen to a lot of music?

[473] I did.

[474] Lots of lots of music.

[475] I'm very eclectic.

[476] I like a wide range.

[477] Back then, I liked a lot of oldies.

[478] I really liked the 50s music.

[479] So I listened to a lot of like Buddy Holly.

[480] It's very positive, me?

[481] Yeah, I listen to a lot like Buddy Holly and that kind of stuff.

[482] And the La Bamba soundtrack, I did that a lot.

[483] And then I didn't really like the 80s style music, the poppy kind of stuff.

[484] I didn't really like that.

[485] But I got into metal when I was older.

[486] Yeah.

[487] So the 9 -inch Nails Downward Spiral albums, pretty much an autobiography.

[488] Like, that's, that's pretty much how my life was going at the time.

[489] And so it was, when I was a teen, it was 9 -inch nails, Marilyn Manson, Pantera, tool, that kind of stuff.

[490] Right, right.

[491] So the dark end of the metal spectrum.

[492] But the more intelligent end of the metal.

[493] Yeah, right.

[494] I wasn't really into the death metal screaming anger kind.

[495] I was into the stuff that was talking about the emotions.

[496] I like, I like singers that have heart.

[497] So, like, Creedon's Clearwater Revival.

[498] Yeah.

[499] Some of them don't worry when you sing it, it feels like it's digging in your soul.

[500] Yeah, yeah.

[501] Yeah, they're great.

[502] Their music has aged pretty well, too, Crete's Clearwater.

[503] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[504] So, okay, so one to five, you had no relationship with your father except one that was extremely negative.

[505] All you saw from him was violence.

[506] You had some relationship with your mother.

[507] Do you think your mother loved you?

[508] Yeah, yeah.

[509] That's where the only time I have good memories with my mom is during that time.

[510] Okay.

[511] The best memory I have with my mom ever is sitting watching, really Wonka's Chocolate Factory and singing every single song.

[512] And I knew every word to that movie.

[513] So I would sit there and sing the entire movie, and we would go back and forth with the songs.

[514] And that was the best memory of my childhood.

[515] That's the highlight of those years.

[516] And are you, during that time, one to five, are you playing with any kids?

[517] Are you playing with your older brother?

[518] Do you remember any play?

[519] No, no. Not really any play.

[520] Just reading.

[521] I wasn't much of a player.

[522] Everybody else would go out and play, and I'd sit with my couple of my books.

[523] So, okay, so you were, you were, now let me ask you some questions about your personality, if you don't mind.

[524] Okay, introverted or extroverted?

[525] Then or now?

[526] That's changed, eh?

[527] Mm -hmm.

[528] Were you introverted before, or were you just, you're just afraid of people?

[529] That's a good question.

[530] I don't think I was afraid of people.

[531] I think I was, well, back then I was, because it took a while for me to burn that out of myself.

[532] When I, in my teen years, I think that I lost the ability to get embarrassed or, ashamed or afraid of anybody, because when I was a kid, I made fun of myself more than anybody else did.

[533] It was very self -deprecating.

[534] Yeah, that's a good trick.

[535] I had a better fat joke than you did, better insult than you did.

[536] Yeah, well, it would be surprising to be if you were introverted as a kid because you appear to be very extroverted.

[537] You smile a lot.

[538] I think, I don't think introverted would fit, but I wasn't extroverted.

[539] I was, I kept to myself pretty much, but I liked the arts.

[540] Right, right.

[541] Okay, so maybe what happened was that you're interested.

[542] in literature, let's say, in the arts, was so strong that if you had to choose between being with people and reading, you picked reading.

[543] Yes, yes.

[544] Because I wanted to learn more stuff.

[545] I like to, even now, I'll be walking, listening to, I just finished Lawrence Krause's book, Edge of Knowledge, which, so like Bleeding Edge Physics and Science and Philosophy, your podcasts, and I listen to, I listen to a wide range of topics, and I try to get the entire spectrum of opinions.

[546] So I'll listen to the farthest right, the farthest left, someone in the middle, all different sides of the topics, and try to see the whole side of it.

[547] And yeah, so these days, I'm just, I'm all over with it.

[548] But I don't think that back then I was introvert.

[549] I think you might have hit the nail.

[550] Yeah, well, you're more very old.

[551] Tenitive people.

[552] Okay.

[553] Are you compassionate, polite, or tough and and stubborn?

[554] Yes.

[555] Which one?

[556] If you had to pick.

[557] So in general, I would think I'm compassionate and polite.

[558] However, because of the survival mechanisms and the way I had to live a long time, I can turn on that hard note pretty easily where I can easily cut people out of my life.

[559] I can easily decide that it's done and you're hurting more than you're good.

[560] And my philosophy these days is they give up too much time in my life to people that hurt me. So I just don't do it anymore.

[561] And so these days are you likely to be taking care?

[562] an advantage of or not?

[563] No, not now.

[564] Not now.

[565] I don't think so, but I can't say no because I might have been.

[566] Yeah, okay.

[567] You said when you were in school, you never did your assignments.

[568] Now, there are obviously situational reasons for that.

[569] Are you a conscientious person, dutiful, orderly, industrious, or more easygoing?

[570] Kind of half and half.

[571] I tend to go.

[572] my wife is the one that does all the planning.

[573] So that's the best way to put it.

[574] When I'm doing my events and stuff, my wife sets up the planning, make sure I have my...

[575] She'll do the scheduling.

[576] She'll do the scheduling.

[577] I handle the material of it.

[578] Yeah.

[579] And the...

[580] I'm ordered detailed about certain things, but I'm very non -materialistic.

[581] Very, very non -materialistic.

[582] Nothing in my world matters physically.

[583] It's all about experiences and it's all about memories.

[584] So, like, I've had...

[585] At more than five times in my...

[586] life, I had people burst in my bedroom at 3 o 'clock in the morning with a duffel bag screaming.

[587] I mean, we have five minutes to get out of here.

[588] We need to grab everything and go.

[589] And so everything I had disappeared because the only thing I would grab it, had time to grab is comic books.

[590] So I would lose all the toys I had, or all TV I had, or all the different books I had.

[591] I'd lose everything except for my comic books.

[592] And so over the years, nothing, none of the material stuff matters to me. And so it's really hard for people to buy me, like my wife says, I'm the hardest person to buy a Christmas present for it.

[593] Because I don't want to anything to give me the things that I want.

[594] Yeah, that's about it.

[595] Yeah, but a memory.

[596] Take me out on a trip.

[597] Give me a memory.

[598] Give me something fun.

[599] Right, right.

[600] So you're very high in openness, right?

[601] Creativity, interest in ideas and interest in aesthetic experience.

[602] Yeah, so.

[603] Love of learning.

[604] Right, and that was one of the things that seems to have saved you that you could, that you found that niche, and that was something you could do alone and you could even do that when you were moving from place to place.

[605] Yep, and it was, and it was a deep escape.

[606] So I, There could be abject violence happening right next to me, and I could be buried reading about what happened with Mike Crawler and the X -Men.

[607] You ever watched the documentary Crum?

[608] Yep.

[609] I love Crum.

[610] Albert Crum.

[611] Yeah, yeah.

[612] Or Robert Crum.

[613] Well, Crum, you know, what Crum did reminds me a bit of what you did because he took refuge in his RTA, and that really saved him.

[614] You know, he had a life.

[615] He had a wife.

[616] He had a child.

[617] He had a career.

[618] I mean, Jesus, he's got a dark side that guy, and he came from.

[619] One brutal family, man. It's rough.

[620] So, but he had that creative escape that sounds like it was there for you.

[621] Yep.

[622] Okay, so we covered a bit of your life from one to five, and you talked about things starting to turn on you around eight, something like that.

[623] Yeah, so, well, that's when we got, so there's three steps in that, right, from five to seven, there's like three steps that happen.

[624] Because the way my mom did it is she escaped my father by sending me. I don't know how she actually got rid of him because we went to Oregon.

[625] She sent me and my brother to Oregon for a year by ourselves.

[626] Just flew us out to Oregon to go live with grandparents.

[627] With grand...

[628] Oh, and did you have a relationship with your grandparents?

[629] With my grandmother, yes, but that was one of the most toxic times of my life in that year of Oregon because that sent me out to go live with my pedophile rapist uncle.

[630] That's right during that time.

[631] So there was no escape.

[632] No escaping that.

[633] And that's when I figured out that that trauma hill is huge in my family.

[634] that there's a large mountain of abuse.

[635] Like, my grandfather, his name is H .L. Because that's the only two letters that his mom knew how to write when he was born because she gave birth at 13 in the Ozarks.

[636] So she, that trauma hill is big.

[637] And that, so it wasn't positive at all.

[638] And so when we finally came back from that after a year of that, my mom brought us back.

[639] And she had got with my stepdad.

[640] And my stepdad was a soon talking.

[641] Did she divorce your father?

[642] I think.

[643] I don't know.

[644] I think she did.

[645] But she's with another guy.

[646] This is now your stepdad.

[647] Yep, yep.

[648] And so he is a smooth -talking criminal.

[649] He is a manipulating, lying, smooth -talking, can sell an ice to an Eskimo kind of guy.

[650] He's the kind of guy that will lie and steal every day all the time.

[651] Right, right.

[652] But also gets heavily involved into drinking.

[653] When I met him, he was in prison for a strong -arm robbery.

[654] He spent four years in prison for a strong -round robbery.

[655] He would steal entire delivery trucks that were going to grocery stores and take all the stuff and go sell at the flea market.

[656] So why do you think your mother picked him and do you know how they met?

[657] I mean, she's already hanging around in the dark side of the planet.

[658] So I imagine she had the opportunity to run into people like him.

[659] I think they met at a bar.

[660] And I think when they met at a bar, he heard about my father and was like, oh, yeah, I'll keep him away.

[661] And it started as a protective thing.

[662] I see.

[663] So she found one monster to keep another.

[664] one at Bay.

[665] Uh -huh.

[666] Do you think that he was a project for her or an adventure?

[667] No. You think the protection thing was genuine?

[668] I think the protection thing was genuine at first, and then it turned into a trauma bond from all the drugs.

[669] So he might have, you said he was a narcissistic manipulator.

[670] He offered her an escape that was false.

[671] Yes.

[672] Yes.

[673] Right.

[674] And okay.

[675] And she stayed with him for how long?

[676] Until he died.

[677] He died in 2017, and the most...

[678] 16 or 17, the most fitting way possible, that drunken, drugged out violence never stopped in my family.

[679] And they were having an argument while they were high and drunk, and he went to the bathroom, had an aneurysm, collapsed on the floor, and crapped all over himself, laid there for three hours while she screamed out of him from living, how worthless he was.

[680] I really can't think of a more fitting way for the guy to end.

[681] That's...

[682] Why did she stay with him?

[683] Why did she stay with him?

[684] Yeah.

[685] Did you think she thought she could rehearl?

[686] She had severe lack of self -respect and sense of self -accomplishment.

[687] She didn't think she could do it.

[688] She didn't think she could survive without him.

[689] She thought that she was broken and couldn't do anything without her.

[690] And he, over the years, he kind of built that into her.

[691] Right, right.

[692] And she just thought that he was indispensable and she couldn't do anything without him.

[693] And so we tried, me and a brother tried to have interventions.

[694] I personally had an intervention with him.

[695] By the age of 14, 15 years old, I'm big in beating him up now.

[696] Because like I said, I was gone from home.

[697] I was living on the streets.

[698] But I was home occasionally because I had to come home to recharge.

[699] Okay.

[700] So when were you with your grandparents?

[701] 13?

[702] That was, no. I was with my grandparents from 5 to 6.

[703] Oh, so, okay, 5 to 6.

[704] And then so first to 5, father, one year with my grandfather, and then back home with my stepdad.

[705] With your stepdad.

[706] And then it was my stepdad on.

[707] And when did you get big?

[708] 13 years old.

[709] Oh, how big?

[710] six foot, two hundred and eighty pounds.

[711] Oh yeah, oh yeah, so that was handy.

[712] I got big fast.

[713] Right, right.

[714] But I was also quiet, shy, and sensitive.

[715] Didn't know how to use it at the time.

[716] So I got picked on constantly.

[717] I used to go to school and get bullied all the time.

[718] I would get beaten at school, come home with bruises all over me, and I never defended myself.

[719] I would never stand up for myself.

[720] Why didn't you defend yourself?

[721] I don't know.

[722] I started to defend myself one day when I snapped.

[723] And a kid had slammed my head into a locker and I picked him up and kind of rag -dolled him and slammed him a bunch of times.

[724] And I noticed that when I did that, after that, for the next four or five months I was at the school, I didn't have anybody bought me. Right, right, right.

[725] So that was the first time you realized that, eh?

[726] Why do you think it happened then and hadn't happened before despite the fact that you were bullied?

[727] I don't know.

[728] I don't know.

[729] I think it might have been because the chaos at home was really starting to spin up.

[730] That's right about the same time.

[731] Hit your limit.

[732] You know, have you ever read about people going berserk?

[733] Some.

[734] Well, it often happens to people who are in a very chaotic environment who are being abused continually, and they hit their threshold, and it's something like a last -ditch, do -or -die response, right?

[735] It's like, well, I've tried to retreat.

[736] That's not working.

[737] I'm cornered.

[738] I've got nothing to lose.

[739] It's a very dangerous position to put someone in.

[740] And that's where I ended up being at the end of the story.

[741] Yeah, I bet.

[742] I bet.

[743] Okay, so at 13, you're fairly large, and you learned one day at school that if you...

[744] So that happened when I was about eight or nine, when I ragged all that cake, because I was still pretty big.

[745] I was by that, that was when I was about, five and a half foot tall and still pretty large.

[746] I was growing into my body at that point.

[747] Right.

[748] So I was still pretty big for eight.

[749] But that was what I first figured out that if I lashed out, the people would leave me alone.

[750] I also right around that same time figured out that one of the first things, I would kind of do the reverse.

[751] of what people talk about when they're going to prison.

[752] You know when they talk about going to prison?

[753] The thing, they're going up to the biggest guy and try to fight him and establish a role in the way.

[754] I would kind of do the opposite.

[755] I go up to the biggest, the most popular kid and then insult myself to him.

[756] And then...

[757] And make fun of myself to that kid.

[758] Uh -huh.

[759] And kind of like establish the pecking order immediately.

[760] Like I'd go find the biggest, whoever the ringleader is.

[761] Right, but you did it with humor.

[762] Yeah.

[763] Well, kind of, self -deprecating humor that nobody else found funny but me. That kind of insulting, kind of like...

[764] I see.

[765] So you got the peasanting.

[766] second -and -order problem over with as fast as you possibly could.

[767] And you were willing at that point to accept a relatively low social position.

[768] I knew I was.

[769] By that point, I had internalized that I was the low social position.

[770] I see, I see.

[771] So you thought you might as well just get it over with quickly.

[772] Yeah, yeah.

[773] I'm going to end up there.

[774] Well, then you don't have the conflict.

[775] Yeah, exactly.

[776] The sooner I can resolve it, the less fights.

[777] Right, right, definitely.

[778] The less bullying I'm going to go through.

[779] If I can establish myself right there and make it.

[780] And if I can do that and make fun of myself, I'm not an appealing target.

[781] Because bullies only want to go after you if you get a response out of you and you make you cry.

[782] So did that generally mean that you were left alone, even though you were at low man on the totem pool?

[783] Kind of, but it was more left alone at a stabilized level of ridicule.

[784] Like left alone down here.

[785] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[786] You know what I mean?

[787] Yeah, yeah.

[788] Like it's not left alone entirely like hands off.

[789] He's okay, we can't make fun of him anymore.

[790] It's like we're going to make fun of him right here.

[791] But we're not going to pick on him down there because he's not going to cry.

[792] There's no fun in that.

[793] Right.

[794] So it's predictable low status.

[795] Predictable low status.

[796] Yeah, that's a good way.

[797] Yeah, well, you see this, you see that in primate social troops, too, is that sometimes, this is one indication of that is sometimes if an interloper comes in who could disrupt the whole hierarchy, you might think that that would be useful for the lower ranking primates because they would have an opportunity to move up, but they'll generally resist the interloper two because the cost.

[798] of social transition, the conflict that goes along with social transition, the cost of that can be so high that they would rather settle for the stable, low status than the unpredictable transition.

[799] Yes, that's a precise, that's a very apt description of what was going on with that.

[800] I would rather just be what I think I am.

[801] I'm the worthless one.

[802] I'm the one you're going to make fun of anyway.

[803] I'm the fat, smelly one.

[804] Let's get this out of the way.

[805] And then I can go ahead and try to live, try to be, I'm going to be out of here less than six months anyway, because I'm pretty sure my family's going to evaporate soon anyway.

[806] Right, so it's temporary.

[807] So let's just get this out of the way and we'll go.

[808] And while you're doing that yourself and yourself, so to speak, with books and so forth.

[809] Yeah.

[810] Right.

[811] Yeah.

[812] Right.

[813] So you have a life.

[814] And right around then, that's when I really started to get more and more toxic.

[815] And I really started to, between nine and 13 was really when I started to become more, not toxic in an attacking way, not like insult.

[816] everybody I'm around, just unappealing and filthy and off -putting and and just like, kind of like give off almost a xenophobic reaction, like, kind of like, kind of like just don't want to touch it kind of thing.

[817] Were you bitter?

[818] I think, looking back, yeah, I think I was.

[819] Well, you had reason to be.

[820] I mean, it would be surprising if you weren't.

[821] I didn't think I was then.

[822] What did you think then?

[823] I think I was just living.

[824] I didn't have, I didn't think that there was a. tomorrow then.

[825] I would regularly say that I felt my life was like I was watching a movie.

[826] Like, I was, like, I'm sitting in the audience watching my movie pass by, and it sucks, and I don't have any real control over it.

[827] Like, another description I would use is, like, I'm living in a tsunami of pain.

[828] Like, I'm just sloshing back and forth.

[829] Like, I don't, my feet are on the ground.

[830] That first response, that's called derealization.

[831] It's a symptom of trauma, which is to see your existence as separate from you, right?

[832] The de -realization is that this isn't, and I don't know if this accurately sums up what you're saying, but that this isn't real, right?

[833] Yeah.

[834] You're like a watcher.

[835] Yeah, yeah.

[836] It felt very unreal.

[837] It felt very much like I am not in my movie.

[838] I'm sitting in the audience and my movie is passing me by.

[839] And every now and then it pulls me into a scene and I have to be in it.

[840] But I'm not, I don't have any script in this.

[841] I'm not engaged in this.

[842] Well, yeah.

[843] Well, that would also be reflective, at least in part of the fact that you had almost no agency.

[844] Yeah.

[845] Right?

[846] I mean, you're being pulled from place to place.

[847] It's not surprising that you felt that things around you were going on despite you because they were.

[848] Yeah, yeah.

[849] And that's a very difficult thing to contend with when you're like nine.

[850] Yeah, yeah.

[851] And my brother at the same time is getting a little more family status because he is assuming the responsibility.

[852] He's the one that's handling getting the houses when we're getting evicted.

[853] And he's the one that's handling the fix in the car.

[854] And he's also joining in.

[855] so he starts doing drugs with my family and he starts drinking with them and he's really early on he just joins in so I don't I don't at all I didn't why not I just I found it very unappealing I would sit and watch those guys do it and I just was I never understood why you would sit there not until I was in my 20s oh is that well that was that was a wise choice because you would have been in real trouble especially if you were the only drug I did as a teenager was LSD I tripped LSD when I was 16 years old but I didn't smoke weed until I was 19.

[856] Uh -huh.

[857] Uh -huh.

[858] Okay, so now you're starting to change somewhat dramatically around eight.

[859] You said you start to become markedly consciously unappealing?

[860] Like, are you trying to turn people off, do you think?

[861] It started unconscious and then gradually.

[862] And I wouldn't even say gradually.

[863] It moved into conscious, yes.

[864] Okay, and so what were your conscious strategies and thoughts at that?

[865] time?

[866] I wouldn't bathe.

[867] I wouldn't change my clothes.

[868] I wouldn't, I wouldn't brush my teeth.

[869] I would say the really inappropriate things about myself and about what was going on.

[870] I would describe the stuff I was seeing in my house, like blatantly around people.

[871] And it was the, just trying to be, and I think it was, again, trying to establish that social pecking order on a constant basis.

[872] Well, it's also an attempt.

[873] It looks like an attempt also to bring what was happening to you anyways under some degree of voluntary control, right?

[874] You didn't, there wasn't any obvious way for you to improve it.

[875] But one way to control it was to take, well, you might think, to take ownership of it.

[876] And I don't know what that is, though, to make it even worse, you know, because in some ways you're spiting yourself.

[877] Well, people will do that.

[878] They'll punish themselves for being low status, for example.

[879] Yeah.

[880] Yeah.

[881] Yeah, and I knew that I belonged there, and I really internalized that.

[882] And the...

[883] Right, so then you're not worth taking care of either?

[884] No, I wasn't worth taking care of at all.

[885] And at the same time, the violence and chaos at home is getting worse and worse.

[886] Like, they are now entering late stage crack addiction and massive problems with alcoholism.

[887] And the degradation of the...

[888] When you're an early drug addict, it's all right because your body might be able to do it.

[889] When you're 15 years in, you're not as resilient.

[890] You could imagine you had a choice to make.

[891] Imagine this is the choice.

[892] It's something like either there's something wrong with you, and that's why what's happening to you make sense, or there's something unbelievably wrong with almost everyone in your family that goes back multiple generations that's so deep that it's terrifying.

[893] And that's the decision that I made.

[894] That's what I mean when I say, had changed.

[895] Because that's the decision that flipped.

[896] I went from thinking that it was me to realize that it was that.

[897] Between 19 and 27.

[898] Okay, so that was that was what switched on you.

[899] Okay.

[900] Now, you've talked publicly quite a bit about violent, the violent school shooter fantasies.

[901] Okay, so detail that out to me. Do it chronologically so I can understand.

[902] And the philosophy as well, because you're smart.

[903] So the probability that you had to.

[904] philosophy is very high.

[905] So I'd like to know all of that.

[906] So the, um, the, well, we'll start around the 14 years old age when I'm living with that disaster house and whatever, all the teenagers are there because that's right around when that starts.

[907] Right.

[908] Now you've got a gang.

[909] Kind of, yeah, we'll call it a gang.

[910] Yeah.

[911] That's a good way to put it.

[912] Um, and so I've got, I've got enablers, let's say.

[913] Okay, fine.

[914] Psychological enablers with that.

[915] And so I am, I've now fully embraced that I'm the dirty fat someone.

[916] Right, right, right.

[917] I had like War in the, wrap the darkness around like a blanket, and it's become my personality.

[918] And now I, the, I started self -harming right around 14 years old.

[919] What were you doing?

[920] Cutting.

[921] I would start with light cuts on my arms.

[922] And it started, I think, as an emotional, regulatory thing.

[923] It would calm the tsunami.

[924] It would, it would, when I felt like I was completely out of control and that lady was passing by.

[925] Yeah.

[926] So let me ask you something about that, because I've wondered about that.

[927] I've had clients who self -harmed.

[928] I'm wondering, tell me what you think of this hypothesis.

[929] So imagine, you know, that time you snapped.

[930] So you could say you're out for blood.

[931] Okay, so imagine that there's a part of your brain, a relatively primordial part, associated with defensive aggression, which, if pushed, will only be satisfied with the sight of blood.

[932] Well, so, because it's very common that people who self -harm will state very specifically that, Unless they draw blood, they won't calm down.

[933] Yeah, no, that's, it's, that's, that's, that's the, because it wasn't finished.

[934] If you don't, if you didn't draw blood, you didn't do it.

[935] And that was, that was very much, it started with very light superficial gesture, right?

[936] So offer blood up to the gods of emotional storm.

[937] In a way, yeah.

[938] And it would, and emotional storm is a good way to put it, because it would really, it would calm the tsunami.

[939] It would, like, lower the thing, it would, maybe even not lower.

[940] It would kind of like cut through that, that, that, that, with something that was concrete in mine.

[941] And even though I knew it was destructive and I knew doing it, it was bad.

[942] Yeah, yeah.

[943] It was still mine, and it was real.

[944] And nothing else in my life felt like it was real.

[945] And so that little bit...

[946] Well, blood is real.

[947] Yeah, yeah.

[948] And the scars afterwards are real, and the pain was real.

[949] And the scabs were real.

[950] And all of that.

[951] So that's interesting, too, because that means that it also stood as an antithesis, perhaps, to that sense of de -realization that you had.

[952] Yeah, and I was also at that time feeling a strong sense of anger at a complete lack of accountability for anybody in my world.

[953] Nobody in my world had any accountability or responsibility for anything.

[954] When stuff went wrong, they didn't have to deal with it.

[955] They evaporated and started over.

[956] They didn't have to deal with ramifications of the hell they were causing.

[957] They just continued and continued and continued.

[958] Why do you suppose that bothered you and not them?

[959] I don't know.

[960] That I don't know.

[961] It really did start to bother me. though.

[962] That was a thing that was really getting to be.

[963] Right.

[964] So that's a violation.

[965] Yeah, yeah, well, I can understand that, you know.

[966] The complete lack of accountability.

[967] Yeah, when I see people in my life in various places failing to be held accountable for their pathological actions, it's, I find that very, very difficult to see.

[968] Especially when there's no, not even any self -reliability, not like, not self -reliability, self -acknowledgment.

[969] Yeah.

[970] Not even any self -awareness that this is what's going on.

[971] Right.

[972] It's like a, to me, it's a violation.

[973] of the intrinsic moral order.

[974] Yes, it's a violation of our social contract.

[975] That we are supposed to at least engage in a rational, in a normal way where I'm supposed to, if you say you're going to do something that I can reasonably accept that that's what you're going to do, not that you're lying to me and doing something else entirely behind my back.

[976] And then getting away with it.

[977] And then getting away with it and smiling and doing it again and enjoying the fact that happened.

[978] Oh, yeah.

[979] That's rough, man. I had to sit and listen to them laugh about how the lies that they were doing and how my stepdad was stealing.

[980] He worked at a, he would lose jobs over and over again because he would get a job, steal everything from the job and go sell it and then lose the job again.

[981] And I was sitting and listen to them revel about that and laugh about that stuff.

[982] And it would just be angry.

[983] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[984] And so I'm now in this.

[985] Yeah, well, everyone that a psychopathic thief rogues is a fool.

[986] That's how they justify it.

[987] Well, if you're so stupid, I can steal from you, then you're so stupid that you deserve it.

[988] Exactly.

[989] Everyone's a rube and everyone's a target.

[990] And the person who's doing it is smarter than everyone else.

[991] Now, take that phenomenon and apply that in that dynamic to a depressed kid.

[992] If you're depressed, you deserve it because you're the worthless one and you should have deserved it.

[993] Yeah, so you're in a weird situation there because on the one hand, you feel that strongly that people should be held accountable for their moral shortcomings.

[994] But on the other hand, you've accepted your role somewhat perversely as low status.

[995] You've started to, in some way, revel in it.

[996] A little bit, yeah.

[997] Well, you've adopted it voluntarily and you said you were pushing it to its limit.

[998] You said you wrapped the darkness around.

[999] Yeah, no, it was.

[1000] It became a definite, not only personality trait, but survival technique.

[1001] Right.

[1002] Well, it's an identity as well.

[1003] It wasn't an identity.

[1004] It worked in this house that you were in.

[1005] It was.

[1006] I was the dark unicorn house where they didn't have anything like me. But at the same time, I was living three parallel lives at that exact moment, okay?

[1007] Because at that house, dark unicorn, where all the pain I was going through turned into a party favor, turned into some weird, positive in a negative way.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] Like negative, positive toxicity.

[1010] Yeah, I've actually seen.

[1011] And so there's that side.

[1012] Then I have my home wife where it's just abject hell, and now I'm the worst and I'm the bottom, and I'm the cast off, and I shouldn't even be there in the first place.

[1013] Why the hell I'm even in the house?

[1014] Then I have the other side, which is I met at 12 years old, which is Mike.

[1015] And when I went to Mike's house, Mike, so it's a very important character to bring him in the story right now.

[1016] So I met Mike when I was, he was 10, I was 12.

[1017] We met at a comic shop.

[1018] We bonded over comic books.

[1019] We met we played, we met playing the original Mortal Kombat One video game to time it out to see where, what time it was.

[1020] But we immediately bonded the first day.

[1021] We met, immediately hooked.

[1022] I went to his house.

[1023] I basically never left.

[1024] We just, deep conversation.

[1025] How old were you?

[1026] I was 12.

[1027] He was 10.

[1028] Oh, yeah.

[1029] And so we just hooked up, and I just basically never left his house for a week.

[1030] Why did his parents put up with you?

[1031] They were really, at the time, they were super sweet.

[1032] They lived in a giant four -story house.

[1033] They're both really well off.

[1034] His dad was a computer programmer.

[1035] His mom was a lawyer.

[1036] Very well to do.

[1037] he was just, they thought that I was just a sweet kid down the street.

[1038] I lived at the opposite one of the blocks at that time.

[1039] So at the opposite of the block of one of the houses I lived in, that's what I meant.

[1040] And so we just bought it immediately, became good friends.

[1041] And it started where we were, I would stay there for weeks and his parents were fine with it.

[1042] And then over the years, stay there for a couple days and they were okay with it.

[1043] By the time I'm 15, 16 years old, I can't stay there anymore because now I'm really dirty and filthy.

[1044] And if I sit on their couch, they have to clean it when I stand up.

[1045] So you're, I see, so you weren't so bad at the beginning.

[1046] Okay, I was wondering why they would put up with you, but I get the picture now.

[1047] So you were a more or less ordinary kid as far as they were concerned when the relationship was starting.

[1048] I was just a, his son's friend at the start, and I was having a rough life, so they were going to try to give me all that good.

[1049] I see, okay.

[1050] And then over the years, as I went from 12 to 13 to 14, 15, that arc, that abusive arc I was going on made me go down and made that.

[1051] And what's Mike doing during the time that you're declining?

[1052] He, the whole time I've been friends with Mike, he's never treated me like anything but an equal.

[1053] Mike did, Mike would tell me constantly, you're a good kid.

[1054] Can I language in this podcast?

[1055] You say whatever you want.

[1056] You're a good kid in a shit world.

[1057] He would say over and over.

[1058] Yeah.

[1059] You're a good kid in a shit world.

[1060] And he, that was like a constant refrain where he would tell me all the time, but over at his house.

[1061] And we would, he would listen to me about my pain I was in, listened to all the abuse.

[1062] And it was brought around that time when the self -harm started.

[1063] he would notice that I would come in with cuts and he wouldn't really ask, but he would just like, dude, you're going to be okay.

[1064] He would try to tell me that.

[1065] But I'm also spinning out because I'm only there for a couple hours, and I go out and my world is very chaotic.

[1066] So the normal part of your world is shrinking.

[1067] It's shrinking.

[1068] Shrinking very quickly.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] And so I'm, the self -harm starts getting really bad, like deeper, deeper cuts.

[1071] And I can't stay at Mike's house because his parents won't let me their, I'm too filthy, and I'm burning out the rest of the friendship.

[1072] And then that disaster group of friends house ends in one incident where I'm having a big party.

[1073] There's like 20 kids there and all these kids from the school and there's even a ban from one of the kids at that house.

[1074] At that house.

[1075] We had the big, big party.

[1076] And then right in the middle of it, they're like 13 kids, tripping acid.

[1077] The parents arrive.

[1078] So party's over.

[1079] All the kids have to go home.

[1080] All the other kids get to go home.

[1081] I get to go sleep in the field by Enkosa Benita because that's the one last refuge, the spot where if I couldn't, didn't have anywhere else to be, if I couldn't go to Mike's house, behind Casa Benita, which is a big Mexican restaurant in Denver, if you ever watch the South Park, did an old episode on Casa Benita.

[1082] It's a big, in that episode is actually accurate, it's got a pink restaurant with its cliff divers, it's really weird.

[1083] But behind there, there was a field, and in the field there was a little dip.

[1084] So if you laid in, you couldn't see it from the street.

[1085] So I was trying to be invisible, little camping area.

[1086] And so that was one of the last places that I could be.

[1087] and so I they ought to go home I got to go there and so when that happened that really sent me off on a really dark spin where that was kind of like my last support that I had been staying at right right because I couldn't go home because the violence at home was really bad at that time like they were they were in the midst of a crack binge for months they were really really bad and so I couldn't go home at all for more than an hour right and so I'm now homeless yeah right and you don't have Mike I don't have Mike I don't have I I don't have Mike.

[1088] At that point, and by this point, instead of sleeping in his house, the only place I can go, he lets me sleep into his tool shed.

[1089] Because in his tool shed behind his house, they had a big recliner chair they had in storage, like a big lazy boy.

[1090] And so I would go in there, and if I didn't have anywhere else to be, I could go to his tool shed and I could sleep.

[1091] Do you still know Mike?

[1092] Still my best friend.

[1093] I just talked to him yesterday.

[1094] Oh, wow.

[1095] Yeah, still my best friend in this world.

[1096] Well, thank God for small mercies.

[1097] Yeah.

[1098] So I'm in his shed.

[1099] and now I'm cutting myself so bad that there's a pool of blood on the ground beneath me and it's like 2 o 'clock in the morning and I look up and there's the roof and the shed has gaps in it we can see the stars in between and so looking up and thinking I've got to do something I'm going to die if I don't get some help I'm going to die and so over the years social services had tried to intervene a couple times so I think what I'll call social services on myself and so when dawn you're how old I'm 15.

[1100] Fifteen.

[1101] So when Don came, I go, and this is late 15, early 16.

[1102] So this is the end of that year, beginning of the next year.

[1103] My birthday's in May. So it's about that, this whole process takes almost a year for this process to take me. Okay.

[1104] So the, I think I got to get myself some help.

[1105] So the next day, when Don came, I knocked on Mike's back door and borrowed a bus fare and a phone book from his mom.

[1106] and called social services and set an appointment for that afternoon.

[1107] And so they brought me there, and it was dawn when I called.

[1108] The appointment wasn't until three or four in the afternoon.

[1109] By the time I got there, they brought my mom in, too.

[1110] So we sit around at a table, big counseling table, and there's on one side there's four or five counselors.

[1111] On the other side, there's me and my mom.

[1112] They have this all sitting together.

[1113] And the counselor says, so what are we here for?

[1114] What's your problem?

[1115] And so I produce a bloody razor blade.

[1116] It's box cutter style razor blade.

[1117] And so I throw it on the table.

[1118] I said, that's my problem.

[1119] I lift up my arm.

[1120] I show him the cuts and say, I feel like I'm worthless, feeling with the bottom.

[1121] I feel like there's nothing left.

[1122] My mom, who is the most practiced liar I've ever known, got them to believe I was just making it all up.

[1123] I was just doing it for attention.

[1124] I just did it to get a rise out of people.

[1125] It wasn't that important.

[1126] Then they sent me home with her.

[1127] And so we get three blocks from the place as she turned to me with this evil look on her face and snarl.

[1128] You should do a better job next time but buy you the fucking razor blades.

[1129] And I'm like, okay, you think I'm a monster.

[1130] I'll show you what a monster is now.

[1131] And instead of wearing that darkness like a blanket, I dove right into it.

[1132] I just, I went on what I call a nine -month period, what I call scorched earth, where that was where I hit my full toxicity.

[1133] I was consciously going to anybody that was nice or good or positive in my world and offending you on purpose.

[1134] If there was something that you liked, I would find that and break that.

[1135] If you like something, I would steal it.

[1136] If whatever would offend you the most, I'd do that.

[1137] And it was to the most important people in my world.

[1138] They even went to Mike's house, stole three of the big boxes of comic books, went, sold them to a comic shop.

[1139] I was trying to break every bit of positive in my world.

[1140] For nine solid months, I did that.

[1141] And then at the end of, during that period, I also snuck and charmed my way into every family member I could and, like, smoothed my way in, and got into all their picture albums, got out of the photo albums, gathered every picture of me into a pile and burned them.

[1142] So currently, there's only like five pictures of me that exists before the age of 15, because my...

[1143] So you went and established good relationships?

[1144] Just briefly, specifically to get the pictures.

[1145] Why?

[1146] Because I wanted to erase my past.

[1147] I wanted to annihilate my history.

[1148] I was trying to erase me. And so after nine months of that...

[1149] Do you think that what you were doing...

[1150] Look, the story that you've told so far makes why you did what you were doing, even in this situation, understandable.

[1151] Did you know it was wrong at that time?

[1152] Oh, yeah.

[1153] You knew it was wrong.

[1154] Well, why do you think it was wrong, given that you had all the reasons that you've described?

[1155] to do it.

[1156] Why is it wrong?

[1157] Because I was hurting myself.

[1158] At the time, I was in that self -destructive mode, I would, Mike, for instance, as an example, when I did that, Mike's like, dude, what the hell are you doing?

[1159] Right.

[1160] So now you're doing to yourself what has been done unjustly to you.

[1161] Yes.

[1162] So you're actually participating.

[1163] Now you're participating in the hell which is torturing you.

[1164] Yes.

[1165] Now I'm fully given into it and I'm going to do all the self -destruction myself.

[1166] I'm, I'm going to go all the way with it.

[1167] I think I was told I was worthless and a monster enough, and I told myself enough that I fully believed it, and now I'm going to make everybody agree with me. And I went to try to offend everybody.

[1168] Right, right.

[1169] And so after nine months of that, I have personal societal destruction, I was alone, completely alone.

[1170] And I had been alone for over a month.

[1171] And I was in that field behind Casa Benita, and I'd been living there for about a month.

[1172] and I hadn't taken close off.

[1173] How are you eating?

[1174] I was stealing free samples from the grocery store at the top of the hill.

[1175] Did you ever engage in any criminal activity during that time, a part of that?

[1176] Yeah, I would go, I would walk up to the comic shop and steal a whole shelf full of comic books, walked down the street and handed him to the first kid I saw it.

[1177] During that period, what about criminal behavior?

[1178] Minor shoplifting.

[1179] I would go to the store and steal candy bars, stuff like that.

[1180] Nothing major.

[1181] just minor shoplifting.

[1182] But during that period, I was doing it like, like, egregiously and blatantly.

[1183] Right.

[1184] So that's part of the power of self -destruction.

[1185] Yeah.

[1186] I would go to the grocery store, steal an entire shelf for the comic books.

[1187] And the first kid that I would see walking out of the trade, I'd just hand him to him.

[1188] I hear you want some comics?

[1189] And because it didn't matter to me. And the, so yeah, I was that kind of crime.

[1190] Okay, so now you're out in the field.

[1191] You're completely alone because you've cut yourself off from everyone.

[1192] And I wake up in the snow and I, because I had been there for months, I hadn't taken my shoes off in weeks, but I also wasn't wearing socks.

[1193] My feet were just rotting off of my body.

[1194] I, like I said, I was surviving by eating free samples from the grocery store and stealing whatever food I can from up there and going dumpster diving.

[1195] I was trying to invade the police during school hours by being on school campus, but not going to class because I had to be, otherwise you'd get arrested for truancy.

[1196] So I'm evading the police.

[1197] I'm, and then I wake up in the snow.

[1198] and it's so cold, the two -block walk to get up to the grocery store.

[1199] I wasn't just shaking.

[1200] I was seizing.

[1201] I was like, I could barely breathe.

[1202] Like, my body could barely move.

[1203] And I get up there, and I'm looking in the mirror, and I'm trying to wash my face off.

[1204] And I'm like, I've got to do something.

[1205] I'm going to die.

[1206] If I don't do something, now I'm going to die.

[1207] And so across the street from the school I was at, there was a building this.

[1208] Why didn't you just want to die?

[1209] I don't know.

[1210] I don't know.

[1211] Okay.

[1212] across the street from the school that I was nominally at was a building that said mental health and I didn't know what it was for I just knew that the signs of mental health I didn't but I knew the last time I warned them they brought my mom in I'm not doing that shit again so I'm just going to go in cold and so I went to the place and that afternoon and they had me meet a young lady she was it was a counseling center they had me a young lady that she was in her early 20s I think and I don't really remember much about that conversation because all I remember is the very end where she said I'm sorry there's nothing can do I can't help you And I walked out of that door, and I remember vividly standing on that porch, and it was early night, so like that evening hour.

[1213] Why had you not gone for any, well, I guess you said why, when you did try to go to social services, it always worked out badly for you, and then they brought your mom in, and that went even worse.

[1214] And now you went to this mental health place.

[1215] And so when I stepped out that door, my brain broke like a mirror, like standing on that step, that's the spot right then and there.

[1216] that my brain snapped like a mirror and felt like shards of glass in my brain.

[1217] And instantly, three things happened, like one right after the other one.

[1218] First thing was I found what was at the bottom with that tsunami.

[1219] Like that tsunami of pain I was living in, went all the way down to the bottom.

[1220] And at the bottom, there's no more waves.

[1221] It gets really quiet and it gets really still and all the waves go away because there's nothing left to lose.

[1222] Like, what are you going to do to cut my arm off?

[1223] You're going to put me in jail?

[1224] They're going to feed me. I don't have any more down from here.

[1225] And so right then, the plans that I wanted to do, crystallized in my head.

[1226] I had talked them through with those disaster group of friends.

[1227] Because when we were sitting with those disaster group of friends, instead of talking about sports or girls or football, we'd talk about killing people.

[1228] We'd talk about, so if you're going to shoot 10 people, how would you do it?

[1229] If you're going to shoot up a school, what would you do?

[1230] And that was the fiction of the group.

[1231] And so over the years, I had already talked.

[1232] And based on why did that be, you said you were at the center of that.

[1233] So is that, were they showboating?

[1234] Were they bragging?

[1235] It was a lot of it was showboating and bragging.

[1236] And it started off as just like a mat, like, we're looking at mass murder things and crazy videos and stuff and finding.

[1237] Right.

[1238] So you're toying with the dark side.

[1239] Yeah, yeah.

[1240] And, and I always would go further into that dark than anybody else would.

[1241] So when they were, when you were looking up, so that's a status issue as well.

[1242] Yeah, kind of.

[1243] And so it turned, and that's how that, that's initially how those started.

[1244] It was kind of like status.

[1245] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1246] Yeah.

[1247] Yeah.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] But, who for me then, it was plans.

[1250] I knew.

[1251] I had talked it through.

[1252] I had already knew what I was going to do.

[1253] I was going to go either through the windows into the food court.

[1254] This was open campus area.

[1255] This was at the school that you were supposed to be attending.

[1256] At the school I was supposed to be attending, North High in Denver.

[1257] And this was open campus era, so they didn't lock the doors or nothing so you could get in and out easily, to leave the campus and go to lunch and then come back.

[1258] So I knew if I went in, I could go in through the doors and go right into the food court and kill everybody in the food court.

[1259] And how were you going to do that?

[1260] Well, so the two, let me, that portion of it.

[1261] So the two plans was either the food court there or the mall food court.

[1262] And it was both the same things.

[1263] Neither one of those spots were soft targets.

[1264] The school had uniformed our police officer station in at all times.

[1265] And the mall had a police station a couple hours down from the food court.

[1266] The plan was to cause as much damage as possible and die while doing it.

[1267] But that wasn't really the goal of my attack.

[1268] The goal of my attack was to cause my parents to deal with making me. I wanted to have them deal with the ramifications of creating me. So I wanted to cause as much damage as possible, as visibly as possible, die while doing it, so then they had to deal with creating a monster.

[1269] Do you think that would have made any difference?

[1270] I don't know.

[1271] But that was the goal at the time.

[1272] That was what was in my head at the time.

[1273] And so, and I knew a form of revenge, yeah, but I didn't, but I felt that attacking them would have been useless.

[1274] That, what, they're going to hurt for one day and that's going to be nothing.

[1275] They've never faced accountability for anything they've ever done.

[1276] and they did me. So now they have to face up with making me. And that was the goal of that.

[1277] And I knew where to get a gun because this was Boys in the Hood era.

[1278] This was late 90s.

[1279] So the gangbangers were all over and they would bring guns into school and flash them in the school because it was before the age of metal detectors.

[1280] So they would just flash handguns.

[1281] And they bought and sold drugs from my family.

[1282] So they knew me. They knew I was living in the field.

[1283] They would regularly buy drugs from my family.

[1284] And so I went up to him like, hey, can get me a gun, hopefully one that shoots a lot of bullets.

[1285] I think, yeah, sure, get me an ounce of weed.

[1286] And these days, that's walking down to a store and getting it back then.

[1287] That's like $300 worth of illicit narcotics.

[1288] But for me, that was easy.

[1289] They knew my parents were drug dealers.

[1290] I just went to my family's house, stole it out of a druggy's pants sleeping on my brother's bedroom floor.

[1291] Like, he had three ounces in his pocket.

[1292] It took one out of his pocket.

[1293] Took it.

[1294] So did you get a gun?

[1295] I didn't get a gun.

[1296] I went and gave him the weed and was set to get the gun.

[1297] He told me three days.

[1298] At three days time, I was going to have the gun.

[1299] And in that three -day time, that's when I was set.

[1300] If the incident that I got the gun, I was going to cause the attack.

[1301] If it was daytime, go to the school, night time, go to the mall.

[1302] And how detailed had your plans been?

[1303] I knew exactly what door I was going to go into and what I was going to do and where I was going to shoot.

[1304] How much time do you suppose you spent setting up those plans?

[1305] Oh.

[1306] So that's a two -sighted question.

[1307] The plan itself crystallized instantly, but I had sent months planning that because we talked about it.

[1308] How much time is?

[1309] And do you suppose you spent with your guys talking about?

[1310] Yeah.

[1311] Oh, oh, weeks and weeks.

[1312] So how many hours?

[1313] At least 30 or 40.

[1314] Okay, okay.

[1315] Yeah, long times of plan.

[1316] I'm just that dark conversation of planning it.

[1317] So that's fantasizing and planning.

[1318] And in that, you're working through the, and I didn't realize it then.

[1319] I don't think they realized it then, but we were working through the ins and outs and the problems with it and what's going to work and what's not going to work.

[1320] So, yeah, by the time it all happened, I had the plan.

[1321] And it came out of crystal locks.

[1322] That's the danger of practicing something.

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] And so I knew right then.

[1325] And so in that three -day time, I didn't think about it then, but looking back, I think I was saying goodbye.

[1326] Okay.

[1327] Because I didn't know that was what I was doing then.

[1328] But I was going to people in a much more peaceful way and, like, saying thank you.

[1329] And went to my ex -girlfriend and said, thank you for letting me sleep on the gravel outside your window.

[1330] And I was going, just saying sorry for things.

[1331] And I was, I think I was saying goodbye.

[1332] And at the end of that, I went to Mike's house.

[1333] And when I went to Mike's house, I knocked down his door.

[1334] And he opened it, and I was in tears.

[1335] And I was just crying.

[1336] And he brought me in.

[1337] And he never asked what I was there for.

[1338] He never asked what it was about.

[1339] He knew intimately the hell I had been living in.

[1340] It was his bedroom that I was in there when I was with the cuts of my arms.

[1341] And he saw the pain from my family.

[1342] He knew intimately the hell I was in.

[1343] But he didn't ask.

[1344] He just brought me in and sat me down.

[1345] He kept on telling me over and over again, you're a good kid in a shit world.

[1346] That's what he kept on saying to me. And he sat me down and he gave me some food and we watched a movie.

[1347] And he acted like that nine months of destruction never happened.

[1348] And it wasn't hanging out with a friend that saved my life.

[1349] That wasn't what did it.

[1350] It was that when I knocked on his door, I felt like I was a walking ball of nothing.

[1351] I was just there to close off my life and write the last line and say, thank you, goodbye.

[1352] I'm done.

[1353] Turn the lights off.

[1354] I'm out.

[1355] And so I thought that I was just.

[1356] just a nothing waiting to explode.

[1357] And what he did, I think, was he put the tiny granular bits of being a person back on the bottom shelf of my life.

[1358] So why was he able to do that, do you think?

[1359] What is it about Mike?

[1360] If you asked him what he did, he just said he just did what a friend's supposed to do.

[1361] Yeah, but he was the only person that you found who did that for you.

[1362] And I don't know what it is, but he's the only one that, no matter what happened, he never treated like I was anything but an equal.

[1363] He never looked at me like I was broken.

[1364] He never looked at me like I was a project.

[1365] He looked to me like I was a kid in pain.

[1366] And so he would talk to me about it.

[1367] And he would, we would, he would, he never looked down on me. We would have deep discussions.

[1368] He was going to high school and for philosophy, going to college and all this stuff.

[1369] Yeah.

[1370] I was a dropout.

[1371] And I was living in this crime -infested hellhole.

[1372] And he never once acted like it wasn't anything but a buddy that deserved respect that he talked to.

[1373] And it was the only part of my life that didn't.

[1374] Mike have other friends?

[1375] Yeah, yeah.

[1376] Mike had a big social circle.

[1377] and that's going to tie into the next part of the story.

[1378] So what he did with that, it wasn't just that I could, like, have a meal.

[1379] It was that I can enjoy food now.

[1380] Like, I can be reminded of the base human things.

[1381] And for me, it was absolutely cathartic.

[1382] It was, like, like, rolling the clock back on my humanity.

[1383] So you had abandoned any sense of value in yourself.

[1384] Totally.

[1385] But he was unwilling to let that go.

[1386] Unwilling, unwilling to let it go.

[1387] and not even unwilling to let it go.

[1388] It was that he didn't even see that it was leaving.

[1389] It was like, that's a weird dynamic.

[1390] It wasn't that he didn't let me slide off the cliff.

[1391] So he didn't even see that I was on a cliff.

[1392] Or didn't even treat me like I was on a cliff.

[1393] And that was extremely powerful.

[1394] To be seen when you feel fundamentally invisible, like I would walk around and ask my classmates, do you remember when I leave the room?

[1395] When I'm gone, do you remember that I was here?

[1396] Because I thought...

[1397] Oh, and you'd just been...

[1398] ignored by the mental health clinic, too.

[1399] Yeah, I felt completely invisible.

[1400] I felt alone and nothing.

[1401] And to be seen and validated, in the most normal ways, just like it was just a regular Tuesday.

[1402] And to me, I was on the precipice of a life -altering madness, and it was just a Tuesday.

[1403] And it fundamentally changed my life.

[1404] And I didn't leave his house for a week.

[1405] I never went and got the gun.

[1406] Now, was Mike still living?

[1407] with his parents?

[1408] So why were you allowed to stay there for that?

[1409] I think he went and talked to him.

[1410] I don't know why.

[1411] Okay.

[1412] I did never ask him.

[1413] I did.

[1414] I never saw his parents that week.

[1415] Uh -huh.

[1416] I, I just went and basically stayed in his bedroom.

[1417] I think he just went and talked to him.

[1418] I think he just was like, hey, Aaron really needs this.

[1419] And so yeah, he's staying in my bedroom.

[1420] So I can get in trouble for it if you want to, but he's there.

[1421] Because by that point, that's kind of the attitude that he had.

[1422] He had had it with his friends groups.

[1423] He went to art school.

[1424] And so he had a bunch of art friends.

[1425] And so they were really preppy and yuppie and so well to do.

[1426] And not all of them looked, not all of them were very, as charitable as Mike was to someone like me. And so there were in friend groups where they were like, well, Aaron needs to go.

[1427] He smells.

[1428] And Mike would stand up in the middle of him like, no, dude, if you're saying he needs to go, you go ahead and bounce right now because he's not going anywhere.

[1429] And so that kind of validation and belonging, it fundamentally changed me to my core.

[1430] And during that week?

[1431] During that week, it changed me. Well, that's the start.

[1432] It's important to note that it's not like it's a magic light switch.

[1433] It's not like ding, everything's better, and it's all fixed.

[1434] This was a process, and this was the start of the process.

[1435] So what he did was give me a frame shift.

[1436] He let me change my perspective a bit.

[1437] The clock rolled back.

[1438] It was like I said, instead of washing in that tsunami and going through crazy and sloshing around, I could set my feet down for the first time.

[1439] So he reminded you that you were rotten to the...

[1440] That I wasn't rotten to my core.

[1441] And so I could be for a little while.

[1442] And so that...

[1443] talk to one of his friends and let me stay with one of his friends for a while, so I was able to get a house, a sleeping arrangement and reassess and shift my frame of reference just a bit enough to take a breath and reestablish with my personhood.

[1444] But the chaos at home was still the same.

[1445] The abuse at home was still the same.

[1446] The violence all there was still the same.

[1447] The self -hatred was still the same.

[1448] That hell was still there.

[1449] But I was able to step back off that inch and take breath.

[1450] But now we're going to fast forward three years, okay, because that was between 15 and 16.

[1451] Now, do go to the night of my 19th birthday.

[1452] Okay, night of my 19th birthday, I was planning on committing suicide.

[1453] I have, what the depression had started.

[1454] So now you dropped, you dropped the school shooting.

[1455] Drop the school shooting.

[1456] Why?

[1457] It had went from outward anger to, because almost instantly when Mike did that, I felt ashamed and remorseful.

[1458] Almost instantly, when, when that reestablishment of my humanity hit, the remorse and the shame of what I had planned was pretty precious.

[1459] So it's interesting, one of the things that you're claiming is that you would have only being able to go through with what you had planned, if you had, in fact, successfully severed every tie you have.

[1460] You would have had to have been genuinely alone and alienated.

[1461] And Mike reminded you that you weren't.

[1462] So I thought that I was.

[1463] Right.

[1464] Yeah, yeah.

[1465] The Mike reminded me that I wasn't with that.

[1466] Right.

[1467] And sort of despite your best efforts, right?

[1468] Because you'd spent, you said, eight months, trying to alienate everyone.

[1469] Yeah, yeah.

[1470] Despite all my best efforts.

[1471] and despite massive effort on my part, that he just wouldn't let go.

[1472] That's love.

[1473] Very much so.

[1474] Here's a great example of that love.

[1475] That's why I like telling this part of the story.

[1476] So my 19th birthday, I was planning on committing suicide, and I was going to do it by overdose.

[1477] I had gotten a bunch of LSD off the streets, stolen a bunch of pills from cocaine from my mom.

[1478] I had copious amounts of drugs, way more than we're going to need to do the job.

[1479] And because my depression had spun up, but I was inward.

[1480] I wasn't outward to arrest anymore.

[1481] I was ashamed and depressed.

[1482] I just wanted to end it, but tired of it.

[1483] dealing with this anymore.

[1484] But I had interventions in the past.

[1485] My kid would be like, dude, you're depressed.

[1486] We need to stop it.

[1487] I didn't want any of that.

[1488] So I was trying to act as normal as possible.

[1489] Trying to act like nothing was wrong in my day.

[1490] So I went to Mike's house.

[1491] And Mike's a very social guy.

[1492] He's a social circle of his own.

[1493] And one of this group friends is a girl named Amber.

[1494] Okay.

[1495] And Amber was really friendly with me. She was always really nice to me. But she was his contact.

[1496] She was definitely his friend.

[1497] And we would go over to her house every now and then watch a movie, listen to music, whatever.

[1498] And so he's like, hey, we're going to kick it at Amber's today.

[1499] Like, right.

[1500] That sounds like a great last day.

[1501] I'm going to spend it with two of my favorite people and then go back to the field buying Costa Medina and my life.

[1502] That was the plan.

[1503] And so I get there and that wasn't it at all.

[1504] I actually walked into a surprise birthday party for me. And I walked into about 14 people saying happy birthday and Amber baked a blueberry peach pie.

[1505] And I walked past him and dropped on my drugs on toilet and that was the last time I ever tried to kill myself.

[1506] And that's what really set me on my path.

[1507] And here's where the love portion comes in.

[1508] Because when we left Mike's house, there was no birthday party.

[1509] Mike called ahead to Amber's house.

[1510] I said, hey Amber, I'm taking Aaron over there, and this is a birthday today.

[1511] Then Amber was having a get -together.

[1512] She had already had a bunch of people over.

[1513] She had already baked the pie.

[1514] And she's like, hey, Aaron's coming over, and this is birthday.

[1515] Let's make it a birthday party for him.

[1516] So they all got together and made a bunch of decorations and stuff and threw up a quick birthday party.

[1517] I walked into a fundamentally life -changing thing that changed my opinion of myself to my core that my friend put up in five minutes would be nice to another friend.

[1518] So, yeah, just a simple act of kindness.

[1519] Nothing.

[1520] The people who tried to be the over -bary acts.

[1521] Not so simple, man. but real and fundamental and genuine genuinely thoughtful genuinely thoughtful right and that it changed me that that's what really started me on the path to that was the time when I reassessed and right after that I did some serious soul searching about is this me uh -huh or is this not me and had a deep conversation with Mike and Amber and other friends about how no dude this isn't me this is I will live through hell.

[1522] And yeah, I'm now adapted to it.

[1523] And I made some really bad decisions and it made some really toxic choices.

[1524] But I don't have to stay there.

[1525] I can move out of this hell now and I can keep going.

[1526] And I can let them live their hell out on that side.

[1527] Well, now you're old enough too because you're 19 at that point.

[1528] And at that point, Mike actually saved my life one more time by he moved me out to Kansas City.

[1529] The final clip that cut the family hooks out of me was he went to college in Kansas City and moved me out there for a summer.

[1530] I got to go live with him out in KC.

[1531] And I was, I'm from Denver.

[1532] So got to go spend a summer out away from my family.

[1533] That did two things.

[1534] They gave me the confidence that I could do something on my own, went to get a job, pay bills, pay rent, be stable.

[1535] It also pissed my family off.

[1536] When I got back, how dare you leave?

[1537] How dare you think you're better than us?

[1538] Right.

[1539] How dare you have a life?

[1540] How dare you think you can exist without us?

[1541] And so that was where I was able to be like, all right, fine, dude, they're attacking me for making myself better.

[1542] This isn't me. Yeah.

[1543] This is them.

[1544] Yeah.

[1545] And so that's where I finally made that flip.

[1546] And right about that same time, I started on the real process of my recovery, which I call acknowledgement.

[1547] So I was about 19 years old, and I still, again, mom still has her hooks on me at the time.

[1548] I was working with her at a Veterans of Forum Wars Bar.

[1549] And so she, it was right certainly after I had kind of started to serve her contact.

[1550] And I'm in this process, but I was working there.

[1551] So she was running the bar.

[1552] I was a bartender there.

[1553] And it was a Veterans of Foreign Wars Bar, so veterans go in there and start drinking like in the morning.

[1554] I was 19 years old.

[1555] Okay.

[1556] So, and my aunt is on the other side of the bar, and it's a bunch of people drinking, a whole busy night, and she's on the other side of the bar, and she's one of the people who had tried to molest me when I was younger, dug through the carpet for crack, rock, tried to kill herself a couple of all time in front of me, toxic, toxic person.

[1557] And she's on the other side of the bar, and she's just offhandedly talking.

[1558] I don't even hear the conversation they're having.

[1559] All I hear is are saying, oh, Aaron, you know you love me. And I stopped and said, no, I don't.

[1560] And I didn't mean to say that.

[1561] I just came out I said no I don't and she said what I said no I don't actually love you tried to kill yourself in front of me you tried to molest me and I don't actually love you I'm done and she started screaming she blew up and had a big old screaming fit and to me it was like white noise I didn't hear any of it it turned to the static because it was like an oval jumped off of my chest like instantly just instant release and I felt so good afterwards that I just walked out like oh my god I just did that and it was like peace freedom yeah and so that started a process where I did that exact thing to everybody in my life that abused me. I went in a process of acknowledgement, and I made sure it was purposeful, very purposeful, though, that it wasn't retaliatory.

[1562] I didn't go to anybody and say, you did this and you need to pay for it.

[1563] I went to him and said, this is, our relationship was fundamentally changed.

[1564] I don't actually love you, and I'm done.

[1565] And I walked away.

[1566] And that had such a cathartic effect on me. How did you know that it shouldn't be retaliatory?

[1567] I just felt it in my core that it shouldn't be, because I felt if it was retaliatory, That just continues the argument.

[1568] Yeah, right.

[1569] It engages and continues the contest.

[1570] You're still hooked.

[1571] It's still hooked, and it still continues the back and forth, and it's still the toxicity.

[1572] We're going to come back with what you did this.

[1573] I don't care about that's why you turn the other cheek.

[1574] Yeah, and this isn't about retaliation.

[1575] This isn't about me getting something back because you hurt me. You hurt me, and I'm dealing with it.

[1576] Right, and I'm dealing with it by being done with it.

[1577] Yeah, I'm dealing with it, I'm done with it, and I'm going to walk away, and I'm going to stop having that hurt.

[1578] And what sort of response did you get from people?

[1579] Some of them screamed and some of them yelled, and some of them yelled, and some and begged me to stay, and I didn't care.

[1580] None of it mattered to me. I just made sure that I said it.

[1581] Why do you think you were able to not be manipulated into feeling guilty?

[1582] I think because by that point I had burned out the ability to get embarrassed or ashamed about anything.

[1583] I had burned out the, and I had burned out the ability for any of those family members' judgment to hurt me anymore.

[1584] Yeah, well, and as you said, too, you'd be down in Kansas City and you had that break.

[1585] Yeah.

[1586] You couldn't take care of yourself and have a life.

[1587] And that gave me a breath and light on that to see it's shown a bright light on that toxicity to see that that was its own sense of hell like it's it's their insults cause other people to insult them back cause a fight to happen it's just a violent circle that just spins around and around yeah and if i engage in that at all i get sucked into it yeah but looking at it looks really stupid so the more i can step back and look at it the easier it got right right and so it was it was very important to me to not have it be retaliatory and to make sure that it was just get it out of me. And every time I did, it was like a step, it was, it was like flying.

[1588] It was like elation.

[1589] Yeah.

[1590] Just pure elation that I was able to do it.

[1591] And now today, I can confidently say that I never sit and have the regret that, oh, my God, I wish this person knew how I felt.

[1592] Uh -huh.

[1593] They all know.

[1594] They all know.

[1595] They all know.

[1596] I'm fine with telling them again.

[1597] So you started to get your life together fairly seriously at about 19.

[1598] At about 19.

[1599] That's when I started, well, kind of, emotionally, I started to get myself better.

[1600] And I started to reassess that I can do it, get myself some stability and drop a lot of that toxic affectation.

[1601] Did you go back to Kansas City?

[1602] I did not.

[1603] I actually came back to Colorado and got living by myself and got my own apartment.

[1604] Mike was helping me and got my own job out of that family hook.

[1605] And what job did you get?

[1606] I was actually, let's see, right around then, I was working at a Starbucks in Barnes, in Noble downtown Denver.

[1607] So I was just working at a coffee jobs, service jobs.

[1608] And did you learn to do a good job?

[1609] Yeah, yeah.

[1610] I've always been, every job I go to, they always want me to be manager.

[1611] I see, I see.

[1612] First job I ever had.

[1613] I became assistant manager.

[1614] Well, you said that you didn't do your assignments and so forth at school.

[1615] So how was it that you were able to do a good job when you got a job?

[1616] The, because when I, when my, the assignments, I just never found them to be important.

[1617] For me, I engage with things that I think are important and you felt it was important to do a good job and beneficial to do a good job.

[1618] The assignments of the school I felt were real busy work.

[1619] If I know the subject, for instance, English class, the reason why I always went to English class was because I had a teacher that I had gotten kicked out of the advanced placement English class for correcting the teacher on Shakespeare.

[1620] I first day of class I corrected them on Shakespeare.

[1621] I had happened to be in my acid -filled parties with my disaster befriends.

[1622] We were acting out at the place of Shakespeare at night.

[1623] That's what we would do.

[1624] We had the complete worship Shakespeare.

[1625] We got the mid -summer -night's dream and just pick a character and go through the play.

[1626] That's what we would do, Trip and Asit, 16 -year -old.

[1627] And so I went to school, and my teacher was teaching Shakespeare first day, and he was getting it wrong, and it happened to me in the summer night's dream.

[1628] And so I corrected him.

[1629] And the teacher does that thing you see in the TV.

[1630] Well, Mr. Stark, would you like to get up and teach the class?

[1631] Yeah.

[1632] So I stood up and started holding court.

[1633] And so I started talking about it, and he pulled me out of class, opened up the door to class, so everybody could see, still me in front of the class, started berating me and screaming at me, Don't you ever contradict me like that?

[1634] How dare you confirm me in front of class like that?

[1635] Don't you ever do that?

[1636] Get out of here.

[1637] Kick me out of his class, send me down to remedial English.

[1638] So I got kicked out of the class where I'm correcting my Shakespeare, go into the class where they're teaching sentence structure and punctuation.

[1639] And I'm like, I go to the teacher.

[1640] I'm like, hey.

[1641] You didn't find that particularly motive?

[1642] No, not really.

[1643] I went to teacher.

[1644] I know this.

[1645] Can I do this?

[1646] Can I get your final?

[1647] Because I know this stuff.

[1648] I write and I read.

[1649] I'm really good at this.

[1650] Like, you can do that?

[1651] Like, please just let me prove it.

[1652] And so she did.

[1653] She gave me the final.

[1654] Same teacher?

[1655] Same teacher?

[1656] Nope, different teacher.

[1657] Oh, different teachers.

[1658] Remedial English.

[1659] Oh, oh, I see.

[1660] Good end of remedial English.

[1661] The remedial teacher is a lady.

[1662] And she's like, can you do it?

[1663] I'm like, yeah, sure.

[1664] So I'd take her final.

[1665] I ace the final for remedial English.

[1666] Got 100%.

[1667] And so from then on, I was her de facto class assistant.

[1668] So even though I never went to class, and even though I was only there once every three weeks, when I was there, I didn't have to do the assignments.

[1669] I could just walk around and help everybody else with their assignments.

[1670] And on book report day, I didn't have to read the book.

[1671] If I could walk up to her and explain what the book was.

[1672] If I'd go to her and tell her the story and tell her what happened in the book and explain that I know what it is, I didn't have to write the report.

[1673] And it was...

[1674] So she was a real teacher.

[1675] She was a real teacher, and she saw me as for being smart.

[1676] And so I would...

[1677] Even though it was remedial English, I went to that class every day.

[1678] Every day I could get to that class, I could go to that class.

[1679] Because that was one little hour where I felt valued and like I belonged.

[1680] Right, right.

[1681] Yeah, well, part of the story that you're telling has that motif in it is that what you needed, and unsurprisingly, given the structure of your family, and the fact that you were moving constantly and that you were generally friendless was a sense of genuine belonging.

[1682] And you had that to some degree with your group of miscreants, but it was based on something that was very bad at its core.

[1683] Whereas with Mike, you had an actual relationship, an actual relationship.

[1684] Yeah, and with Mike, I valued it so much that I memorized this phone.

[1685] number and every time I moved out of state I had I had he was my home base yeah so I I like every other attachment could disappear and but Mike was always right always there right okay so I'm gonna we got to close this up yep unfortunately because I'd like to find out you know what happened later in your life too because you you got married and you have kids and like you have a life and and yeah so we're gonna well we can fast forward to when I came out with my story well I want to ask you a specific question sure If you don't mind, well, there's going to be people who are watching this and listening to it who are feeling both desperate and they probably have the reasons for it and who are feeling not only desperate but resentful and vengeful, right, and who are toying with those sorts of dark ideas that you toyed with.

[1686] And so if you could say something to them, other than everything that you've just said, is there anything specific you would say that you know that would be helpful to someone who is.

[1687] tempted by that, those darkest of motivations.

[1688] What I tell my own kids all the time is that the only thing constant in life is change.

[1689] That the only thing that's absolutely certain is that tomorrow's going to be different than today.

[1690] That it might not be better and it might not be worse, but it is going to be different.

[1691] And so we can, we have choices with that.

[1692] We can either resist that change and get worn down like the rocks on the beach turn into sand and just get annihilated.

[1693] Or we can adapt with those changes and move like the water itself.

[1694] and the more we can be that change and realize that the past that we are carrying and the damage and the destruction that we have experienced is not us.

[1695] It's just luggage that we're carrying around with us.

[1696] It's just the baggage that we carry.

[1697] That the more we can maybe set that back down.

[1698] Right.

[1699] So it's part of not accept that damning judgment of yourself and others that's fine.

[1700] When you tell yourself that you're worthless enough and that you hate yourself and everybody houch you too, that's your brain lying to you.

[1701] That's your brain lying to you.

[1702] You are, in fact, good enough.

[1703] You woke up good enough today, and it's okay that you messed up, and it's okay that you were wrong.

[1704] And it's okay that you got mad.

[1705] And it's okay if your future's okay.

[1706] And it's okay to be okay.

[1707] It's okay to be good sometimes.

[1708] Yeah.

[1709] That's not a bad thing.

[1710] It's okay to feel emotion for people.

[1711] Well, that's a weird thing to conclude if you have, for example, bargained to accept a very low social status because you've already, in some ways, made a contract with yourself, that you're going to be an outsider, you're going to be unpopular, and that you are worth, And one thing that happens when you internalize that so much is that it gets to be repellent to any positivity.

[1712] Yeah, right.

[1713] If someone were to come up and say, oh, you're really a good person.

[1714] Well, you don't really know me then.

[1715] If you see me, then you'd see the monster, because I'm not really a good person.

[1716] Yeah, well, it also violates the contract.

[1717] It does.

[1718] It does, because we've established now that I'm the low -impactual.

[1719] And the only way that I've seen for an outside source to be able to combat that is with consistency.

[1720] And the only way I've seen, by being the one that doesn't break when the waves crash against you, to not, to be a Mike, to not give up when the stuff gets hard.

[1721] But when you're in that dark, to realize that just keep going.

[1722] So why do you think Mike liked you so much?

[1723] Because I was smart.

[1724] Because he always says it was because of the deep conversations.

[1725] Because we could sit and talk for hours and never be bored.

[1726] We can sit and talk and talk.

[1727] So he really valued that in you.

[1728] Really valued that in me. And that I was always, that I would give everything of myself from my friends.

[1729] Even from back then, like if I had it, I didn't value my stuff, so if I had something you needed it, I'm fine with giving it to you.

[1730] And I would give Mike the shirt off my back.

[1731] I'd tell him today, dude, I'd give you the skin off my back.

[1732] So you were also a friend to Mike.

[1733] Yeah.

[1734] And it was intellectual respect, like the meeting of peers.

[1735] All right, well, I'm going to close this up.

[1736] I think that's a very good place to end.

[1737] Thank you for walking us through that.

[1738] One of the things I did notice, from a clinical perspective, by the way, is that you showed very little emotion, negative emotion, when you were describing what happened to you in your past.

[1739] And there's two possible explanations for that when you see it.

[1740] And one is that a person has hurt so bad that the emotion has just, they're just flat.

[1741] But the other possibility is that the events have been put in their proper place and stripped of their emotional significance and transcend it so that they're no longer.

[1742] relevant.

[1743] And that looks to me like what you've managed.

[1744] And congratulations on that.

[1745] Thank you very much.

[1746] Given what you went through, that's a major moral achievement.

[1747] And the fact that you were able to deal with that and to stop it from being transmitted to your children is that's work of incalculable significance.

[1748] Yeah, today my kids have all gone to the same middle school at a marriage school and high school.

[1749] They've all gone.

[1750] They've never been evicted.

[1751] They've never had their mom beaten their dad or their dad beating their mom.

[1752] None of that.

[1753] I say I use what happened to me growing up as exact examples of how to parent my children.

[1754] Isn't it interesting, you know, that this is a real mystery about human beings too, is that, like, really, in some fundamental sense, all you had were bad examples.

[1755] Now, it's not exactly true because you had your brother and you had Mike and you had some friendships.

[1756] And so you could see how reasonable and positive human relationships were structured.

[1757] But anyone listening to the story that you relayed would say, well, you have every reason to not know how to be a good husband and a good father.

[1758] And yet, despite all that and despite the determinism of a multi -generational family of pathology on both sides, you were able to step away from it and establish something positive in the confines of your own life.

[1759] And I do it specifically by using what happened to me as a kid, like exact examples of the parenting that I went through and just do the opposite.

[1760] Right, right.

[1761] Well, it's so interesting because, like, if you're bullied, there are two things you can learn from that, or at least two things.

[1762] One is how to bully, and the other is that you should never bully, right?

[1763] And it's the same lesson.

[1764] There's something about the manner in which the lesson is received that determines the consequences.

[1765] It's not a deterministic course in that, like, well, we do know that most people, and this is actually the truth, almost all people who abuse.

[1766] adults were abused as children, but most people who were abused as children don't abuse as adults.

[1767] Yep.

[1768] Right, right, right.

[1769] And so now I think that I won because today my kids are happy and healthy and friendly.

[1770] Yeah, that's a good deal.

[1771] My 12 -year -old, when there's a new kid in her class, the teacher puts the new kid next to her because she's the class ambassador.

[1772] So she's the welcomeer for the class.

[1773] Right.

[1774] So, yeah, you said that I don't get emotional with that.

[1775] That's a good one.

[1776] That's a good way to end, man. Well, congratulations on that.

[1777] Thank you, sir.

[1778] That's a major accomplishment.

[1779] Thank you.

[1780] And say hi to your 12 -year -old.

[1781] Thank you, I will.

[1782] You bet.

[1783] You bet.

[1784] All right, everyone.

[1785] Thank you very much for watching and listening today.

[1786] Your time and attention is always much appreciated.

[1787] Thank you to the Daily Wire Plus people for facilitating this live conversation.

[1788] We're going to be doing a bunch of them over the next couple of months to the film crew here in Scottsdale.

[1789] Thank you for, well, setting this up and making it run so professionally.

[1790] And we'll see you all very soon.

[1791] Thank you for you.

[1792] That was great.

[1793] Yeah.

[1794] Appreciate it.

[1795] Thank you.