Juliette Lewis

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.

[1] I'm Dak Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by the Emmy -nominated Monsoon Monica.

[3] Hello.

[4] Hello.

[5] Today we have Juliet Lewis.

[6] And Juliet Lewis, of course, is an actress and a singer.

[7] She's also an Academy Award nominee.

[8] Like you, she's an Emmy Award nominee.

[9] And a Golden Globe nominee.

[10] She was in Natural Born Killers, Kate Fear, What's Eating Gilbert Great, from Dust Till Dawn, California.

[11] One of my favorite all -time movies.

[12] My boyfriend's so sexy in that movie.

[13] Christmas vacation, I watch it every single year, Too Young to Die, and The Basketball Diaries.

[14] She is currently on, I know this much is true on HBO, and I have since seen it, and she is legitimately phenomenal.

[15] Chris and I were going crazy with how brilliant she is in this thing, rewindings her scenes.

[16] I mean, she's tremendous in it.

[17] So please enjoy Ms. Juliette Lewis.

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[21] He's an object to make.

[22] He's an up to next guy.

[23] Hi.

[24] I'm going to just say you and I are a little bit similar in fun ways.

[25] As I've learned, do you fluctuate between, oh, fuck, this is never going to end and, oh, fuck, this is going to end next week?

[26] I'm going to miss it?

[27] Well, for the first time, I just had the, oh, shit, actually, you're not going to have all this free time again.

[28] Do you do everything you needed to do?

[29] Of course not.

[30] But no, the highs and lows of my soul have been exacerbated by this experience.

[31] I would imagine everybody, but some people might be more even keeled.

[32] I'm not an even keeled person, sadly.

[33] That's why I like you, though.

[34] Thanks.

[35] I always wonder, doing this podcast has been a fun experiment and who remembers what, but do you remember hanging with me?

[36] You can say no. By the way, no pressure, no pressure.

[37] Well, at Ethan's, wasn't it at a lunch?

[38] We had lunch or you came over to their house, right?

[39] Yeah, I came over for dinner.

[40] Yeah.

[41] And we had a dinner.

[42] I had a million questions for you.

[43] Mind you, this was like probably 13 years ago, I would say?

[44] Yeah.

[45] Yeah, because I think Ethan and I had just done without a. paddle and we started hanging out and it was in glendale in the hills somewhere and i was like i played it cool for the first like 15 minutes of the dinner and then i was like how good of a kisser is brad pitt oh god do you recall this i was just obsessed with the notion that you had kissed my number one dream boat even you how cute i didn't that is so funny and you were like oh yeah he's a great kisser, you know, but people are just people and it's not, you know, as big of it.

[46] And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[47] I tried to take down the objectification of a fellow human being.

[48] Yes, that is my style.

[49] That is my style.

[50] We're in it.

[51] Are we happening?

[52] Oh, yeah, are you recording?

[53] We're recording.

[54] Are you recording?

[55] We're all recording.

[56] Actually, the show I just did, the Mark Ruffalo show that I'm doing press stuff for the director, I never had this happen.

[57] But much like how we just started this interview where you just flowing.

[58] He removed action and cut so it was a radical experience.

[59] I didn't know because at first when he said, I don't say action and cut, you know, and you don't know someone you're like, oh God, what is this pretentious bullshit?

[60] This is Derek C. in France, by the way.

[61] He's brilliant and a revelation to me. But anyway, you come into set, they mic you, they use your hair, da, da, da, da.

[62] And then you just open the door and there you are in the scene.

[63] And you keep doing like that.

[64] And then it becomes this flow.

[65] It was like this whole awesome idea.

[66] I love that.

[67] A couple times I directed a movie and I put my sister in it and it was her first movie.

[68] Hold on.

[69] What was your movie you directed?

[70] That's very cool.

[71] I directed a movie called Hit and Run and then I directed Chips and then I directed this other movie called Brothers Justice.

[72] Thank you.

[73] Thank you.

[74] But I used my sister.

[75] And she'd never been in a movie.

[76] So I had codes for the camera guys.

[77] Yeah.

[78] Which was like, let's get set.

[79] But that really was like action.

[80] And then I would just kind of talk to her.

[81] By the way, not that she didn't need it.

[82] She was brilliant in it.

[83] It was just something I thought would be helpful to her.

[84] Yeah.

[85] And then we just kind of would talk and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[86] And then I'd be like, okay, that was fucking awesome.

[87] And she's like, what?

[88] And I'm like, yeah, we did it.

[89] We got it.

[90] That's great, Dax, that you knew to do that.

[91] Anyway, it's cool.

[92] Have you ever seen a David O. Russell set?

[93] I visited Bradley one time.

[94] I guess silver lining playbook and he was just like and it was wild to see it happening to De Niro right where it's just like he's just going like no no you're uncomfortable you need to stand up where are you just walk down the hall and no one's set for him to leave the room or walk down a hall or stairs but just everyone's just got to fucking start doing it because he's just this crazy experiment and that's his way some actors are so stuck in their academia or whatever their training is I'm not one of those, so I actually would appreciate that style maybe.

[95] I mean, it depends.

[96] I've had a person who was not experienced cut in the middle of while I was finding something, and I was like, oh, no, I didn't say this, but inside, I was like, dude, you just interrupted.

[97] We could have stumbled into something.

[98] Anyway.

[99] Yeah, might have been the best thing I did all day.

[100] And now I can't know.

[101] The thing is, like, being a creative personality, we are, I think, naturally obsessive.

[102] It can be self -defeating.

[103] You're also self -aggrandizing.

[104] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[105] You're just a narcissist, really, with all the many.

[106] Horrifyingly so, but because it's a business of rejection, you're not shit or you're this.

[107] You're always trying to prove yourself.

[108] So with age and experience, some jobs I learn, I was like, Okay, it's just a job.

[109] Yeah, yeah.

[110] So you do that and then the other side is like, no, we're trying to reach the Holy Grail, which is greatness or I call it transcendence.

[111] Yeah.

[112] Can I just start by just saying, and I think I told you this at the dinner, I just like you a lot.

[113] I've always liked how nonconformist you at least appeared to be to me. Thanks.

[114] I thought you weren't the conventional institutional choice.

[115] for things.

[116] The other person I felt that way about when I was young was Nicholas Cage where I was just like, oh yeah, I don't know what this motherfucker's going to do.

[117] What's going to happen?

[118] I just loved the kind of punk rockness of it.

[119] And it's hard for the punk rockness to invade an institution like Hollywood.

[120] And I felt like you did.

[121] Thank you.

[122] And if I could cut that and put it to a tape for a little motivational kickstart to a lot of days.

[123] This is recorded, so we'll get you a copy.

[124] It is recorded, yeah, you could always listen.

[125] Yes, nonconformist is what I gravitate to.

[126] I remember when you came on the scene and you're like, who is this fearless person?

[127] Because you would, what's the show?

[128] And you would put yourself in all these scenarios.

[129] Like, that's a whole other radical thing.

[130] Because not only you're acting, convincing, but you're playing with real life emotion.

[131] I haven't since had a similar experience, by the way, which was like, that was the first thing I ever got hired to do.

[132] Yeah, because how old are you?

[133] That's some daredevil shit.

[134] And as a man, that's where you're like, ah, you could get punched in the face.

[135] I mean, these are the stakes.

[136] Thank you for pointing that out because I do think, like, throughout the audition process of that, it came, there came to be a point where there were many people everyone liked in the studio, like certain people and like Ashton like certain people.

[137] And one of the one reasons I broke through is that Ashton was like, I don't think he cares if he gets punched in the face.

[138] I think he's totally open to that.

[139] And I think he'd even like it.

[140] So let's go with him.

[141] But like, were you just born unique or is there some childhood stuff that led you?

[142] Isn't it funny?

[143] Nothing's funny with the time we're in.

[144] But what I'm about to say, it's funny that the self -revelation or the unearthing, unpacking your childhood, those first 10 years of life, what are they saying little kids, the first five years, really?

[145] And all that attachment, neglect, or if you don't get all this stuff, what I'm getting at is I've been learning today, I'm almost going to be 47, of like survival skills.

[146] skills that have become my job.

[147] You know, this ability to, you might call it disassociative.

[148] But I would live in my imagination.

[149] Also, my own experience with childhood trauma made me, I think, very empathetic toward other people's pain and suffering.

[150] Yeah.

[151] Also made me want to fix it and heal and help.

[152] You're one of eight, right?

[153] I'm one of a million, no. Yeah, you're one of seven billion, but.

[154] Yeah, so both my parents were married several times.

[155] I grew up with a brother and a sister, a mom and dad divorced since I was two, and I have half brothers and sisters that we all have different levels of connectivity.

[156] And I always say I'm from a family of individuals.

[157] Right.

[158] The whole reason I even got to have dinner with you is Brandy, your sister, who I fucking love.

[159] Ethan hadn't snatched her up.

[160] I think I would have tried to get her myself.

[161] Your wife is so cool, by the way, because already, I just think it's so wonderful when people can mutually admire people of the opposite sex and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[162] And we're not rigid and filled with fear about it.

[163] Well, it'd just be a lie.

[164] She's horny for a bunch of people.

[165] I'm horny for a bunch of people.

[166] It doesn't mean that we're going to go do anything.

[167] It just means that we're not lying.

[168] Okay, great.

[169] So Brandy, my sister is amazing.

[170] And to be with Ethan, who again is one of my favorite people I've ever met.

[171] And to make that motherfucker walk the lion, I can't imagine someone's strong enough to do that in the best way.

[172] That's sweet.

[173] Yeah.

[174] So I can see, yeah, she's a very individualistic person and you are too.

[175] That's an interesting childhood.

[176] But that's so sweet.

[177] Ethan Soplee, my brother -in -law, who's doing amazing things with his podcast, American Glutton.

[178] He has a podcast.

[179] Yes.

[180] tax get into it you got to listen but it's all things health motivation transform it you know mind body's soul connection but it's really about our eating habits every guest has a relationship to their health and you know and of course he has a journey of losing weight gaining weight one of the most miraculous yeah so anyway he's doing that my sister is one of my best friends everything you're saying about her like she just because i got known for things in movies, I'm not the great one, you know what I mean?

[181] She's just a remarkable person.

[182] Anyway, when I talked about survival things that we all develop, I'm also in gratitude because my two parents who gave me a lot of freedom.

[183] My problem was I had two artists, very pro -art, that's where you get this banana cake person, personality, very like, and I didn't have the gender be pretty and all the weird stereotypes of women.

[184] Your mom's a graphic designer and your dad was an actor?

[185] Yes.

[186] My dad was a character actor and he came into the world of acting late in life, middle age, like 40 or 30, 35.

[187] Wow.

[188] That's brave.

[189] Totally brave and had a bit of success as a character actor.

[190] And my mom, a full -time mom and could have been an artist.

[191] So went to Cooper Union, where now my niece is going.

[192] So that's kind of a beautiful thing.

[193] Yeah.

[194] You also had a ton of independence, right?

[195] Because you started acting really young.

[196] And you were emancipated at 14, right?

[197] Yeah.

[198] Emancipation is a big confusion for people way early on when I ever did interviews when I was like 19.

[199] And I feel like people are conditioned now.

[200] and they understood, I was not one of these people.

[201] I was in my head.

[202] I was great to be a creative person.

[203] It was great to be anonymous.

[204] I loved people watching.

[205] I was not meant to be famous because I imploded.

[206] My point is the journalist would be like, you're emancipated and try to dig into my parent world.

[207] What they didn't understand is when you were a young actor, my parents helped me get emancipated.

[208] It was a legal thing to put on paper so that when you're hiring, you hire the emancipated minor over the non -amancepated.

[209] And so even though that's weird.

[210] So you can work over eight hours.

[211] So you can work over eight hours.

[212] And so even though that's weird, because still, you're like, wow, Jalapa, you're 14 working.

[213] Well, I was set to lead a criminal path.

[214] I was very set up to live a wild, very scary, dysfunctional life, potentially.

[215] And acting actually gave me a sense of focus, work ethic.

[216] I could create stories and drama.

[217] You know, it had a place to go.

[218] So when my dad, when I said, oh, I'm interested in this line of work, because he did it, it made it very plausible.

[219] Yeah, yeah.

[220] Then they helped me. They're both really good at helping if you had dreams or anything of artistic nature.

[221] And then the funny story is like, yes, and then trouble caught up with me later.

[222] Sure, sure.

[223] And by the way, I completely relate to you in that, had I not done this, I would be in jail.

[224] That was definitely where I was heading.

[225] You still got to handle whatever that was, the penchant for danger or being bananas.

[226] For lack of the eloquent word, yeah, we got to do the work.

[227] But yes, for a moment there, like, to this day, I have a really strong work ethic and discipline.

[228] And I really thrive with a schedule.

[229] So it's learning how to do life.

[230] Sure, you've had to do this many times as I've had to do it many times.

[231] There's been like periods where my identity was X, Y, or Z like, oh, I'm a movie actor.

[232] That's my identity.

[233] Yeah.

[234] Oh, okay.

[235] I'm not getting hired for movies anymore.

[236] Oh, okay, I'm a TV actor.

[237] Oh, I'm a director now and blah, blah, blah.

[238] By the way, none of those things should be my identity.

[239] So when they go away, I shouldn't like collapse and what am I?

[240] So it's really like purpose, right?

[241] It's like finding purpose.

[242] Yes.

[243] What you're saying is so key because it's also when you do feel purpose less, then it becomes, how do I get motivated?

[244] And that's where I get into aging.

[245] You know, a lot of us are like, how do I find that energy that we once had when we're younger?

[246] but it's purpose and it's funny it's cyclical sometimes of like reigniting a purpose you didn't know was dormant nothing makes me happier than when I can help another achieve peace or happiness you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah service service service the jam it's the counterintuitive thing that I feel better helping someone else because I'm not thinking about myself I know imagine But so in general on the show, we'll kind of go through your ride, which yours in particular is quite interesting because it happened very young.

[247] When I first came into the world, for people, it was 1991.

[248] For me, it was 89 Christmas vacation.

[249] Oh, shit.

[250] There can't be a movie at this point that Kristen and I have watched more than Christmas vacation because we kick off Thanksgiving hits and we're like, when are we watching Christmas vacation, should we do it later in the day?

[251] Should we do it tomorrow on Friday?

[252] But it's going to happen.

[253] And then it's going to happen again mid -December.

[254] We're going to get itchy to watch it again.

[255] It can't even have Christmas without that movie.

[256] I'm thinking so many things.

[257] This is the way the pinball mind works.

[258] So as a artist, you get known for usually what you first came out into the world.

[259] So there's literally like four movies people will list when they come up to say hello.

[260] Yeah.

[261] And then artists try to rebel like, no, but it's my current.

[262] thing and you're almost in competition with your past.

[263] Yes, yes.

[264] I think of Prince going, oh, my God, I want to see Prince play Little Red Corvette and beautiful ones.

[265] And remember - Raspberry Beret.

[266] He went through a whole thing.

[267] He was like, first of all, no, I'm Jehovah Witness.

[268] I'm not doing anything sexual.

[269] Secondly, I'm going to fuck with your heads and do some jazz rendition of the songs you want to hear.

[270] I just think artists are funny.

[271] And yes, we're always trying to be and do our current work, but I am literally so touched that I had no part in it.

[272] It was a stroke of luck at 15 and Chevy Chase.

[273] There's like three people I can validate forever for handing me a career.

[274] And just to be a part of this holiday movie, you know what I mean?

[275] Like that is the sweetest.

[276] sing yeah like you brought up punked a minute ago right and i loved it but that's not always been the case there was the first eight years i was doing press junkets when i was in movies and they'd want to bring up punked and i always felt like they were saying like oh you're just a reality star you're not even and you can get a chip about it yeah yes and i had a huge chip on my shoulder about it and then at some point i don't know what happened or why but i was like oh i'm proud of punked why was i running from that.

[277] And now I'm so proud to have been in that.

[278] But boy, for eight or ten years, I wasn't.

[279] And what a waste of my eight or ten years that I could have been enjoying it.

[280] 100 % all about owning the more of yourself you can claim, the more you can have grace and not compartmentalize or cut off who you were, are this, that.

[281] But even natural boring killers, I mean, there's so many things that I had resentment toward fame or the machine or the they that try to box you in.

[282] Right.

[283] That stuff was so hard for me to manage at 27, 8, 9, 30.

[284] Yeah.

[285] You were like 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22.

[286] I couldn't have made it through that.

[287] That's a lot of attention to get at that age.

[288] right?

[289] Yeah.

[290] Ugh, that little person.

[291] That was a trip.

[292] I actually took a break at 22 for like three, four years and I thought I was done.

[293] I thought I will do something else now.

[294] What precipitated the break?

[295] I just didn't know I was on a success pressure machine.

[296] I didn't know that's what was happening around me. You know, the agents and this and the manager and I tried to get out of a movie.

[297] I wasn't doing well as a human being as a little person.

[298] I needed a break.

[299] Now we're cultivating humanity in some of our industries I mean, at least superficially, but you can if you're like, no, he needs a break for two months, maybe wait the schedule out, you know, change schedule.

[300] But this time it was a movie, it was a sequel to terms of endearment.

[301] I I was on drugs, and sadly, you're laughing.

[302] Here's my defense.

[303] Hold on one second.

[304] I get so pissed off the way the rumors on this.

[305] People thought I was on drugs, actually, before I was on drugs, because that's all they could think of, oh, this thing's different, this personality's weird, drugs, you know?

[306] Yeah, yeah.

[307] All my life lessons, I like to say, were very short and very extreme.

[308] What was your drug of choice?

[309] Mine was cocaine and Jack and Diet.

[310] I was a downer person.

[311] It's kind you would have to detox from, for sure.

[312] So I tried to get out of this movie and was threatened the producer, a female producer, I'll not name her, threatened a lawsuit.

[313] For me, I felt like I died in this time period.

[314] I will spare you the details.

[315] And I look back and I tried to save myself in that moment and didn't know how to fight.

[316] for myself.

[317] The job itself is one that's just riddled with fear.

[318] It's so tenuous whether a movie actually gets made.

[319] What does that mean?

[320] What does it got bought?

[321] And then what does it got green?

[322] Until you're filming and even if you're filming, it could go sideways.

[323] Like, until that fucking thing is at the movie theater on Friday, there's just so many things that can prevent it from happening.

[324] So everyone is operating out of great fear, which none of us are making awesome decisions when we're scared.

[325] So I do have some compassion, even for like the most monstrous people I've disliked in this business, you know, they're a symptom of the disease, maybe, not the disease.

[326] 100%.

[327] And that was the one thing that I would buck against.

[328] I showed up at work.

[329] I was fine.

[330] I just, I didn't have people skills.

[331] So I didn't really know how to talk, but I did my job great, but I was 18.

[332] Yeah.

[333] I'm overly aware of it for the actresses, which is like, wow, here's this five foot two young woman who has shown herself to be very good at acting and pretending she's someone else that is now asked to be basically a public speaker and a sale yes a politician a salesperson there's such radically different skill set it's a miracle that any actors can do both to begin with but all of them are expected to be that politician that salesperson at some point yes that's the thing that you don't know and I was terrible at in the early part of my coming out I was a great sabotager of all the PR stuff like even in the clothes I went to the thrift shop I was sort of sabotage photo shoots what are I don't understand this part of it now I say to my public says hey I can't actually talk about myself for the whole day because I'll have a nervous breakdown down so we can do four hours or whatever.

[334] Well, you slowly introduce boundaries into what you can do, right?

[335] I got to say photo shoots are probably, if I had to say, the single most hated part of the entire experiences of photoshop.

[336] I have this similar when we're in the makeup and hair thing.

[337] You know, some women, men can focus on how they look for a long time.

[338] I don't actually want to think about it.

[339] To me, I find it inhibiting, unless you're creating a character, I don't really want to think about it that much.

[340] But do you think any of that part, I mean, because you were unconventional.

[341] So the fact that your peers at that time had a specific thing where you're like, I'm not even playing that game.

[342] Here's what's funny is this idea, even of beauty, is it's just never been my objective.

[343] And I find it limiting because that's not what's going to be lasting.

[344] It's got to be your moxie, your chutzpah, your stuff that sustains you.

[345] Because a lot of women, they get mired in the being desirable and sexy and all this shit.

[346] Yeah.

[347] And I like to actually disrupt that.

[348] Uh -huh.

[349] Were you born with that confidence or did you go, this isn't even a healthy road for me?

[350] Like, are you just that lucky that you're like, I don't give a fuck what I look about?

[351] Or are you like, I know that road's going to lead me to feeling shitty.

[352] It is funny, isn't it?

[353] Because I have crippling self -doubt and all that stuff.

[354] It's just the looks thing.

[355] I had this sort of rejection of getting too hung up on it.

[356] I think it's a testament of my parents, I guess.

[357] That is a liberating thing, but it's not that I don't have it.

[358] I had body dismorbit where I thought I was too skinny.

[359] I hated, see, so you think this thing.

[360] It can go anyway, yeah.

[361] I hated being as little as I was.

[362] was when I was younger, I always wanted to be voluptuous.

[363] When I was representing my artist self, I could be cocky there.

[364] I could be self -preserving in that arena.

[365] And I don't know how or why that is.

[366] But as a woman and as a human being, I have all the...

[367] Again, not to get salacious on you.

[368] I guess for me, if I were you and I was young and I was dating Brad Pitt, literally the hottest human being to ever live, that might be.

[369] have helped me at least go like, why even fucking worry about shit?

[370] Brad Pitt likes me. This is what's funny about mythology, and I'm going to segue actually into the brilliance of why I'm here.

[371] I know this much is true because that character's looking back at their mythology or their history.

[372] I'm forever tied to my first huge relationship who became one of the biggest movie stars of our time.

[373] But I always say to people, when we met, he was an unknown actor from Missouri.

[374] Well, you guys did a lifetime movie together right before California.

[375] We were partners at that time when we both lost our anonymity.

[376] A lot of insecurity together as a couple.

[377] Just young kids fumbling along in Los Angeles.

[378] But yeah, there was no, I'm dating so -and -so, because he was a human being to me. Yes, yes, yes.

[379] We were both really young and fumbling along.

[380] Yeah, oh, my God, getting famous as a couple.

[381] It was wild.

[382] Phelma Louise came out, and then six months later, Cape Fear came out.

[383] Unreal.

[384] Unreal.

[385] It was funny.

[386] You were, what, were you 18 in Cape Fear?

[387] Yes.

[388] I think it was 19 when it came out.

[389] So 19 was when the kind of world exploded.

[390] Yeah.

[391] Yeah, and you got nominated for an Academy Award and you got nominated for a Golden Globe.

[392] And you said it earlier when we first started, like you're not a big practitioner of some kind of homework approach to acting.

[393] And what seemed very obvious from Kate Fear was like, oh, this person's a phenom.

[394] You know, blowing De Niro off screen not to make it competitive, but just that's a big undertaking to have those scenes with him and to be confident and to own the whole thing.

[395] It's just hugely impressive and it's no wonder people were super fascinated with you.

[396] Thank you.

[397] That's the juxtaposition of my personality, of many people's personality, the duality because I came off as fiercely confident or aloof or don't give a shit.

[398] But I just didn't understand at that time what it meant when Marty, I remember him saying to me when we did that nine -minute scene in the auditorium with De Niro.

[399] And he said to me, goes, I don't know who to cut to.

[400] I don't know who to cut to.

[401] And it wasn't until later, I put that in my pocket, like, oh, that's a hell of a compliment.

[402] Yeah, because let me tell you, when De Niro's in the movie, it's pretty clear who you're going to fucking cut to.

[403] Yeah, it's a humongous compliment.

[404] It was to me, I didn't know how to take it.

[405] That's the sad thing that sometimes compliments, they bury you.

[406] I was like, undeserving, full of shame.

[407] When you did that scene, was there, oh my God, something special happened there?

[408] Well, that's where I finally found the word for it, because I only know it from the feeling of doing it, and it is transcendence.

[409] And that's where you feel it, you know, where you're almost levitating and you can feel that.

[410] I've had it in live shows with a certain synergy with the audience or everything popped off, and there's something you can't describe.

[411] And it was funny because somebody said after Cape Fear, they're like, whoa, you're going to be spoiled.

[412] And I had no idea what they meant because I thought, oh, wow, this feels great.

[413] Now this will be like this all the time.

[414] I didn't know, I didn't know Marty, Jessica Lang, Nolte, De Niro.

[415] That was maybe you get it twice or three times in a career, if at all, you know.

[416] So it's really special.

[417] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[418] We've all been there.

[419] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[420] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[421] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[422] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[423] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[424] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[425] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[426] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[427] What's up, guys, it's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[428] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[429] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[430] And I don't mean just friends.

[431] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[432] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[433] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[434] So the other experience I must know about, though, is natural -born killers.

[435] Because I think people forget, or probably Monica, who's born in 87, probably doesn't even remember.

[436] It was like a social phenomenon and was just on the news and shit.

[437] True.

[438] You know what I'm saying?

[439] It was like, oh, fuck.

[440] It got banned.

[441] Culture's unraveling because of this piece of art. Cool.

[442] I can dig that.

[443] Yeah, it has not happened to a bunch of things.

[444] Like, you can think of NWA and really in that top five from my childhood of like just it being perceived as a threat.

[445] That's the one thing I'm like, I hope this generation, oh, kids, go watch Natural Born Killers, please.

[446] Yeah, I got banned, I believe, in the UK, a bunch of places.

[447] Why?

[448] So Natural Born Killers, Julia and Woody Harrelson play this couple that decide to just, they become serial killers.

[449] And they're the heroes of our movie.

[450] And it was really a very, very artful exploration of pop culture and the effective media on people.

[451] them wanting to be stars and they didn't give a fuck if they were stars because they were killing people that that would be worth it i mean that was the message but ahead of its time oliver stone was holding up a magnifying glass to mainstream media and how they sensationalize celebrity i mean now they know don't put a killer on the front of your magazine don't print that piece of shit's suicide note yes that only just just started, stop saying these people's names, but I know some things you have to report.

[452] But at the time there were these huge stories, the O .J. Simpson, the Lorena Bobbitt, which I know Oliver tagged that on in the end, a clip of all these news pieces.

[453] Yes, yes.

[454] I learned so much on that movie creatively, like, to be dangerous and Oliver was very encouraging of you going to your edge, like giving it, giving it all.

[455] It's layers of layers of, like, you can analyze it.

[456] So to answer the question, why was a band, people were looking at one tiny layer.

[457] There's also, am I remembering it correctly, too, that it was really like a paradigm shift for Woody Harrelson?

[458] Yeah.

[459] You've grown up knowing Woody Harrelson is like a phenomenal dramatic actor.

[460] Yeah.

[461] But he was just a dumbass on cheers until natural born killers.

[462] And then you're like, oh, he's a hell of a dramatic actor.

[463] Like that.

[464] Yeah.

[465] Yeah, he's dangerous.

[466] He's all these things that all happened that's a very brave casting choice for oliver at that time it was it was it was oliver was i can't believe the words i was going to like he's a people person not true but what i mean is he wasn't he liked to take chances if you met and you guys had a good meeting he was daring in the sense he's not going to go oh you didn't do this in your prior work so thus you can't do it now You know, I was an ingenue.

[467] I was a tiny, you know, the bat world.

[468] And so for me, it gave me a chance to flip that on its head.

[469] And then after that, I did a comedy, a Nora Ephron comedy, but it didn't hit.

[470] So that would have been a great turn, but nothing hit as strong as Nashville killers after that.

[471] So for a good decade, is she crazy girl?

[472] Yeah, yeah.

[473] Wow.

[474] Yeah, because my first several movies, I just played a dumbass.

[475] And so I would meet people, and they would be genuinely shocked that I wasn't really dumb.

[476] And then I thought, oh, I got to remember, like, people only know about you what they've seen.

[477] And it's not really their fault.

[478] I mean, I'm wanting them to recognize.

[479] You got to be smart to be able to play dumb correctly.

[480] Yes.

[481] They're not thinking that.

[482] They made me as a dumbass ten times.

[483] And then you start realizing, like, oh, I carry this thing.

[484] with me. The thing I did for pretend is kind of got infused a little bit with my real life persona.

[485] And that's interesting.

[486] And there we are at our mythology embracing.

[487] So now that's the thing.

[488] You learn grace because I actually love people so much.

[489] By and large, people are lovely and interesting and funny.

[490] And now with our things online and Instagram and the connection.

[491] activity, that would have scared the bejesus out of me earlier.

[492] But I have to say when I lost my dad three years ago, that's when I understand, oh, it takes a village.

[493] I literally would have the checkout person, you know, I lost my mom, four years ago.

[494] I was just having hugs with people because I needed that.

[495] It was a really wild thing.

[496] Because we're talking about early fame, I couldn't handle energy and the attention.

[497] And then somehow I shifted and I was, well, not somehow a lot of growth and work.

[498] But and then you could embrace the power of the people.

[499] Well, and then you put a ton of energy and I think you still do right into music.

[500] What was the appeal of it?

[501] The one thing, the only sad thing, but I know we don't live in our past is I wished I would have picked up an instrument when I was a teenager, I wish I would have been writing songs because it would have helped me tremendously and maybe not smoke as much weed and then go off in that world.

[502] I don't know.

[503] Music is a soul expression.

[504] You can connect to the frequency of whatever emotions are dormant, whether it's your superhero self or an anger anthem song or a lost woman longing song.

[505] You know what I mean?

[506] You could sort of exercise this energy in a creative way that really beautiful and productive.

[507] Yeah, it's inherently emotional, right, music?

[508] As opposed to, like, so many other mediums.

[509] Everybody's wired differently, but I know for me music, it goes back to Earth and your heartbeat and the flow of the blood.

[510] And, you know, you could get into some trippy metaphysics stuff.

[511] With it.

[512] Yeah, so when I finally got to collaborate, so someone would play guitar or bass or drums, and I would write lyrics and melody, it was really interesting, like put a band together.

[513] I did a whole thing when I turned 30, and I was like, holy shit, I'm 30, and I didn't sing.

[514] And I got to say, I haven't done it in a few years now.

[515] I do, I get asked to sing with friends or for charity or friends' bands, but for a while, that was my livelihood for six years.

[516] I had a band called The Licks, Julietta in the Licks.

[517] We were a ferocious, energetic rock band.

[518] And we played all over the world and at different festivals.

[519] Would you compare your lead singer persona to a character in a movie?

[520] Like, do you feel like you were a character?

[521] I don't at all.

[522] To me, on stage, it's all my emotionality on 10.

[523] Right, right.

[524] To me, it's not a persona.

[525] It's actually...

[526] The side of you.

[527] I think so.

[528] It's also a rejection of the conformity or the institution of Hollywood.

[529] I always wanted to take pictures after a show when you've been energized and feel you're electric and you're sweaty.

[530] And, you know, it's sort of a response, a shedding of imagery, a breaking of the mold of that conformity.

[531] of that structure.

[532] Okay, now, I know this much is true.

[533] Yeah.

[534] I immediately heard the Spandau Ballet song.

[535] Do you remember that song?

[536] This much is true.

[537] Oh, my God, yes.

[538] Oh, no, I know, I know, I know, I know.

[539] Does it have anything to do with that song?

[540] Well, I'm laughing because they could not be more dissimilar.

[541] It's a very serious cinematic what I think will be a tour to force for Mark Ruffalo again, one of our greats.

[542] God damn, I love him.

[543] He's ridiculously talented.

[544] But it's from a book.

[545] It's a six -part show and the director described it as a six -hour movie, but it's really beautiful, rich family dysfunction and someone searching for their identity.

[546] And then I'm this scholar and totally different.

[547] I love characters, so I love people different from myself.

[548] But my character is very funny because Mark comes to me, his character's Dominic, and he wants me to translate, I'm in linguistics, translate a manuscript of his grandfather who's learning is very toxic.

[549] And he's trying to figure out more about his family.

[550] He comes to me, I'm a sort of narcissistic scholar girl with a chip on her shoulder.

[551] And we have some incredible, really good scenes that are good, meaning they were fun.

[552] Everything with Mark is honest.

[553] There have been people I've worked with that are bona fide amazing actors and they've won awards.

[554] And I've been watching them and I go, oh, they're kind of an island.

[555] They're doing that thing.

[556] And I love watching that thing.

[557] I'm not critical of it at all.

[558] Right.

[559] And then I've had the experience with some of them where it's like, oh, they drug me into their orbit and I really enjoyed it.

[560] Like they sucked me in.

[561] It wasn't just them performing.

[562] It was like they, they enveloped me in their bubble.

[563] Yes.

[564] And it's a very fun feeling.

[565] And I love to believe Mark Ruffalo is one of the invite you into his bubble type of people.

[566] 100%.

[567] He is such what you're describing.

[568] He's such a giving person.

[569] And as an actor makes it look.

[570] And I felt this way we'd De Niro, so effortless, they just are who they are.

[571] So it makes it easier for you to assume your role.

[572] Yeah, it's almost as if they believe their reality so strongly that you can buy into their reality as well.

[573] I think you and I are similar this way.

[574] I'm actually dying for the moment where I'm confused in the scene and I feel like I'm falling backwards and I actually have to catch myself and figure out my way out.

[575] Like, that's what I'm living for.

[576] Okay, this is the thing, and if it can be an analogy in life, is dig into the discomfort.

[577] And if we can get into that and find the revelation, the freedom, and the whoa, in it, that's the creative joy.

[578] I remember this Ruffalo scene, my character, it was so weird to do in the middle of it.

[579] It was like, guys, am I bad acting?

[580] I feel like I, I feel so funny.

[581] And they're both Derek and Mark were like, no, she's bad acting.

[582] The character is being pretentious, trying to get attention, like she's being full of shit.

[583] Anyway, it should make you feel uncomfortable, awkward, humiliating.

[584] And I dig that.

[585] It's funny.

[586] I do too.

[587] And I almost think it has something to do with the fact that in general, in life, I'm a control freak.

[588] And so because I'm so controlling in real life, this is the one place in.

[589] life where I love being completely out of control and not knowing what's going to happen.

[590] Isn't that interesting, that duality?

[591] I'm very similar.

[592] And Brad Wilk, who I've been with for four years, we've discussed this because I want to schedule.

[593] I want to have an overview of the next months.

[594] Also, we both travel and we have all this stuff.

[595] And he was like, yeah, I don't, I don't really do that, you know?

[596] I was like, I just play it by ear, and I was like, oh, my God.

[597] Yeah.

[598] You know, you figure it out.

[599] You know, it's so weird us artists, because you're like morning tonight, you have the schedule and the call sheet and this and your per diem.

[600] And then you get off that and you get a little, who am I?

[601] So I try to implement some structure now.

[602] Yeah, yeah, a call sheet for your life.

[603] Yeah.

[604] And it's funny as like I crave it.

[605] And then most of my favorite moments are like total chaos, don't know, lost.

[606] Getting lost.

[607] Yeah, it's like, this is ironic.

[608] I love being lost.

[609] And then that's my ultimate fear.

[610] Yes.

[611] I have a whole story about getting lost in the woods.

[612] My little sister, I would think I was like 11, so she would have been 9 or something.

[613] And we're skiing and we go along the side, these little less carved out paths in the trees.

[614] Yeah, yeah.

[615] We went in.

[616] We got lost.

[617] and we were like stuck on the side where there's these huge pockets of snow if you have one misstep we couldn't hear the main path anymore we couldn't hear people and we're these little kids you know I'm like let's keep going and then you finally you find out what you're made of yeah and we're these little weak kids so then we hear voices I'm like we've salvation we hear it so we get out we get down to the bottom you're sweating and you're like who we almost died as little kids.

[618] And then we go back up the hill and I turn to my sister and I'm like, you want to do it again?

[619] Of course.

[620] Getting lost.

[621] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[622] Okay, well, I am, I got to say, I've been seeing some trailers and advertisements on HBO for I know this much is true.

[623] And I'm very, very, very excited to see it.

[624] I can't believe you stuck this band out ballet song in my head because now that's what I'm hearing.

[625] I know this.

[626] It's a real throwback.

[627] Yep.

[628] Well, Julia, just as fun as the time I had dinner with you, and I hope to cross past with you again soon, and I adore you.

[629] I'm grateful you were willing to talk to us for so long.

[630] This was fantastic, and I'm going to give Ethan a big hug from you and vice versa.

[631] He says hello.

[632] Wonderful.

[633] And I've got to listen to his podcast.

[634] What's the name of it again?

[635] American glutton.

[636] You'll love it.

[637] American glutton.

[638] All right.

[639] Mad love.

[640] All right.

[641] Be good.

[642] stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare and now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman okay so since we talk to Juliette Lewis I watch I know this much as true on HBO and I can't believe I'm about to say this I've never seen a movie with Mark Ruffalo where Mark Ruffalo isn't the most intriguing element no matter what it is he's so phenomenal she I mean she is incredible I mean she is incredible in this Kristen and I we were around like 10 different little choices I mean she is so on another level that's awesome yeah she was incredible I mean she like in the middle I think I told you this in the middle of like talking in the scene she's eating and then she spits some of her food out in her napkin, just really casually.

[643] And all it is is real.

[644] Like, she's not scene steely.

[645] She's not, like, overly busy.

[646] She's just like, oh, my God, I'm spying on somebody.

[647] That's so interesting.

[648] It's kind of next level, natural real acting.

[649] So cool.

[650] Yeah, it's really mind -boy.

[651] Yeah, I'm glad she got that role.

[652] After we recorded with her, I really want to watch natural -born killers.

[653] Yeah.

[654] Really bad.

[655] Yeah.

[656] Would you re -watch it?

[657] You know, the movie's like an acid trip.

[658] It's not something I necessarily desire to ever see again.

[659] Also, as she pointed out, it was such a trial of pop culture that I do wonder how it aged.

[660] Like, it was really very profound when it came out and groundbreaking.

[661] But now I wonder.

[662] I just don't know.

[663] But yes, I would.

[664] I would try it.

[665] You know, Tarantino wrote it.

[666] I did know that.

[667] I think he got in a fight at a bar with somebody over this movie.

[668] movie, Tarantino.

[669] Because he also wrote true romance.

[670] Mm -hmm.

[671] I don't think he had a problem with that one.

[672] He had a problem with one of these movies, and I think it was natural -born killers.

[673] I think he got in a fight.

[674] Oh, you know, for sure.

[675] Well, he disowned himself from it.

[676] Oh, he did.

[677] Yeah.

[678] The film is based on an original screenplay by Tarantino that was heavily revised by Stone, writer David Velaus, and associate producer Richard Rattowski.

[679] Tarantino received a story credit, though he subsequently disowned the film.

[680] After Tarantino attempted to publish the film.

[681] his original screenplayed a natural born killers as a paperback book, as he had done with the scripts for true romance and his own directorial efforts, reservoir dogs, and pulp fiction.

[682] The producers of natural born killers filed a lawsuit against Tarantino, claiming that when he sold the script to them, he had forfeited the publishing rights.

[683] Eventually, Tarantino was allowed to publish his original script.

[684] He disowned the film saying, I hated that fucking movie.

[685] If you like my stuff, don't watch that movie.

[686] Oh, wow.

[687] Wow, wow, wow.

[688] Wow.

[689] Does it have a list of producers on that movie?

[690] I want to look us up.

[691] Yeah, look it up.

[692] Okay, okay.

[693] We're getting somewhere.

[694] Yeah, Don Murphy.

[695] Okay, who's that?

[696] I think Don Murphy's the one who originally optioned that, which got the ball rolling and gave him control of that.

[697] He famously discovered McConaughey in a bar.

[698] He was in town doing the Linklater movie, dazed and confused, and Matt McConaughey at a bar, and was like, this guy should play someone in the movie, and he did.

[699] and then it became a star.

[700] Wow.

[701] My boyfriends are in that.

[702] Are they both?

[703] No, just Ben Afflex.

[704] Anywho, I'm pretty sure that Tarantino got in a physical altercation with Don.

[705] Oh.

[706] Murphy, post -natural -born killers, maybe in Sundance or something.

[707] Oh, boy.

[708] Something exciting.

[709] Some kind of drama happened.

[710] Well, sounds like he has a lot of bad.

[711] He did not like how that was executed.

[712] Don Murphy, Quentin Tarantino, altercation.

[713] Oh, here we go.

[714] The suit stems from an incident that occurred October 22nd when Tarantino confronted Murphy in the West Hollywood restaurant ago.

[715] According to reports at the time, Tarantino struck Murphy several times before the scrap was broken up.

[716] Oh, my God.

[717] Okay, yeah, Murphy sues Tarantino after talk show sash.

[718] Oh, wow.

[719] So this didn't go well.

[720] This did not go well.

[721] Tarantino won $5 million assault claim.

[722] Oof.

[723] That's an expensive.

[724] It's an expensive tantrum.

[725] It's an expensive, yeah.

[726] When I worked with Bert Reynolds, he told this very long -winded story, and it was great.

[727] He was the best storyteller ever, and it involved him punching a director out, who, according to him, was abusive to the cast.

[728] Oh, okay.

[729] And then that director sued him, and he got $500 ,000 or something that was very monumental in the 70s.

[730] Yeah.

[731] And he said, it was worth every penny.

[732] That was the button to his story.

[733] Oh, boy.

[734] Oh, boy.

[735] Oh, boys.

[736] Okay, yeah, so where was it banned?

[737] It was banned in Ireland.

[738] Oh.

[739] When the film was first handed to the MPAA, do you say MPA or MPA -A?

[740] M -P -A.

[741] Okay.

[742] I'm going to say M -P -WA.

[743] Hong Kong.

[744] They told Stone they would give it an NC -17 unless he cut it.

[745] As such, Stone toned down the violence by cutting approximately four minutes of footage.

[746] Oh.

[747] And the MPAA re -rated the film as an R. Only four -minute difference.

[748] Okay, the film was banned completely upon release in Ireland.

[749] Really quick, have you heard these strategies that some people have had?

[750] I think Matt Stone or Trey Parker, is that their name?

[751] Yeah, Matt Trey, yeah.

[752] Yeah, apparently in that great puppet movie, they had like the sex orgy.

[753] And I think the sex orgy was like 20 minutes long, knowing that they were going to have to have something to barter with.

[754] And then there's been a couple cases of this where people put way too long of it in anticipating that that's what they would cut out and then it made it.

[755] Oh, wow.

[756] I wish I could remember all the ones that that's happened to, but there's been a couple famous ones.

[757] But I do think, I want to say that that Matt and Trey thing, they still were allowed to keep like seven and a half minutes.

[758] You know, it was very gratuitously long and apparently it was twice as long.

[759] Oh, my God.

[760] That's hilarious.

[761] It is really funny.

[762] I think all that shit was created the MPA historically as a row.

[763] Red Scare stuff.

[764] Really?

[765] Yeah, I think basically the government was going to start cracking down on all the commies, and then this was their solution to self -regulate so that the government wouldn't start regulating motion pictures.

[766] I think.

[767] You think?

[768] Okay, Christmas vacation 30 years ago, it was 1989.

[769] It came out.

[770] 1989.

[771] So how many years ago of that?

[772] Well, you were two years old, 31 years ago.

[773] You were...

[774] No, I'm 32, right?

[775] Yeah, but 21.

[776] 89 to 2020 is funny one.

[777] That's right.

[778] But you were born in 87.

[779] Yeah.

[780] But we're coming up on my 33.

[781] Yeah, yeah, we are.

[782] We're really close.

[783] It feels like in such a nothing birthday, 33.

[784] Everything between 30 and 35 is nothing.

[785] And then when you get to 35, you go, ooh, yeah.

[786] I'm closer to 40 in the door.

[787] Yeah.

[788] Yeah, that's when it gets serious.

[789] Oh, boy.

[790] Okay.

[791] Okay, I don't want to think about it.

[792] Okay, back to Juliet.

[793] Yeah, yeah.

[794] She said that the first five years, you kind of solidify your attachment style.

[795] Oh, oh.

[796] I'm super interested in attachment styles and stuff because we talked about it a bit on Monica and Jess.

[797] And so I've been wanting to read some books on it.

[798] I know nothing about that.

[799] There's this theory, this attachment theory, that you develop in your childhood attachments to your.

[800] your primary care to your caregivers, and then that sort of replicates in life.

[801] All future attachments?

[802] Yes, like how you attach.

[803] And there's different kinds.

[804] Real love addicty for me. Let's find yours.

[805] Okay.

[806] Attachment theory is a psychological evolutionary and ethological theory concerning relationships between humans.

[807] The most important tenant is that young children need to develop a relationship with at least one primary caregiver for normal social and emotional development.

[808] The theory was formulated by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst John Boldy.

[809] Within attachment theory, infant behavior associated with attachment is primarily the seeking of proximity to an attachment figure in stressful situations.

[810] Parental responses lead to the development of patterns of attachment.

[811] These in turn lead to internal working models which will guide the individuals, feelings, thoughts, and expectations in later relationships.

[812] Okay.

[813] So there's four kinds.

[814] Okay.

[815] Hold on.

[816] Let me also look at my picture.

[817] My picture was really good.

[818] I don't know how a picture is going to play into this, so I'm kind of excited.

[819] A photograph.

[820] It's like a graph.

[821] A graph.

[822] Yeah, it's a graph, and it was helpful for me. Okay.

[823] Okay.

[824] The first one is a secure or autonomous attachment.

[825] The second is avoidant or dismissing.

[826] Third is anxious, preoccupied.

[827] and four is disorganized unresolved.

[828] So I'm going to get a little deeper, okay?

[829] Yeah, please do.

[830] Now I'm in my graph.

[831] Those, to me, weren't great descriptors because I don't understand what any of those categories mean, just intuitively from the description, please.

[832] I'm really sorry.

[833] Okay, secure.

[834] Can trust fairly easily, is attuned to emotions, can communicate upsets directly.

[835] If they're upset, I guess they communicate that directly.

[836] That's not a good way of phrasing it.

[837] but leads with cooperative and flexible behavior in relationships.

[838] Huh.

[839] Okay.

[840] Anxious has a sensitive nervous system, struggles communicating needs directly, tends to act out when triggered, i .e. makes partner jealous.

[841] Oh.

[842] Three, avoidant dismiss it.

[843] Downplay's importance of relationships is usually extremely self -reliant.

[844] Uh -oh.

[845] Uh -oh.

[846] Can become more vulnerable when there is a big crisis.

[847] Oh, wait, wait, get me in the title of that one again?

[848] That one's avoidant dismissive.

[849] Avoidant dismissive, okay, that felt the most...

[850] Like you?

[851] Yeah.

[852] Avoidant fearful is the last one.

[853] More dependent in relationships than avoidant dismissive.

[854] Okay.

[855] Strongly fears rejection.

[856] Oh.

[857] Has low self -esteem, has high anxiety in relationships.

[858] Okay.

[859] Which one do you think you are?

[860] Can you be a mix of these things?

[861] I'm sure.

[862] I'm sure I have the first one.

[863] one that sounds secure yeah my mom was a good mom i know but she was busy as hell i have been that third option in relationships for sure i'm super self -reliant and i think i am sending a subtle message that i'll be fine without you whether i'm intending it or not yeah i don't know what to say about that yeah i know that oh man mine like started in elementary school like i had a girlfriend in elementary school no one liked me this girl with thick glasses and i were an item and we brought each other treats on the holidays yeah Connie i want to say her name oh my god you don't even remember her name that's definitely avoidant but she you know we were both we were not the pick of the litter you know we weren't trevor and amy it's just we weren't and then so all of elementary very much desiring girlfriends who had crushes on a lot of girls.

[864] Sure.

[865] Didn't get any of the girls I liked.

[866] Then junior high, like a light switch, all these really popular girls started liking me the eighth graders when I was in sixth grade.

[867] Yeah.

[868] And that kind of changed everything.

[869] And then I was reckless in a kid in a candy store and cheated because I wanted the attention from everyone at all times.

[870] Yeah.

[871] And I just did that.

[872] And then high school more of that, but then developing into more responsible with other people's feelings, still could have been better.

[873] And then three very distinct long -term relationships that have ended up with me here.

[874] So it's hard to weed out what I was predestined to be and how I've evolved.

[875] It's kind of like that, the N -gram test.

[876] It's like who you were that you overcame, who you are today.

[877] Yeah, I think you can come in and out of these.

[878] I don't think it's like a death sentence or a, yeah, it's not like so rigid.

[879] But it is what your neurons are used to when you're little what you're receiving from your parent is how you manage yeah i want to hear more explanation of the childhood aspect you know like a deeper description of how the parent -child interact especially for the category that i i i think i might be involved okay here's here's another graph okay my kids were so open to babysitters and stuff yeah there was only a couple they disliked.

[880] That's true, but they've been exposed to that from a very early age.

[881] Yeah.

[882] So maybe that has to do with it.

[883] Like, also remember, I do remember when they were really little, especially Lincoln, when you guys would leave, we would say all the time to them, parents always come back.

[884] Yeah, we always come back.

[885] Yeah.

[886] So there wasn't like these big epic blowouts that kids have about their parents leaving?

[887] No. That I see other parents dealing with.

[888] That's true.

[889] Yeah.

[890] But again, I think it's just because they had a lot of people in their life.

[891] Carly was there from day one.

[892] Yeah.

[893] And you were there.

[894] Grandma just brought these videos and we watched them.

[895] Yeah.

[896] And there's a video of you watching Lincoln in the sink.

[897] Oh, my gosh.

[898] Yeah.

[899] And she's under two.

[900] Wow.

[901] Yeah.

[902] Do you remember Miriam?

[903] She's like the baby whisper.

[904] Right.

[905] And occasionally, like if Kristen was working or needed a break or something, she would do like a night nurse.

[906] situation, maybe for a week we had her.

[907] She's lovely.

[908] We were like totally took her style of like when you'd pull the pacifier, when you do all these things.

[909] We were all in on her technique.

[910] And for us at work, like the kids slept through the night really quick and she put us on a schedule, blah, blah, blah.

[911] I've never told you this, but one time she pulled me aside and she said, and you know, she had a very thick accent.

[912] She was like, mm, Monica is not wiping the baby's butt good enough.

[913] Are you serious?

[914] Wait, I don't even remember ever being in the same vicinity as her.

[915] You were.

[916] No, it was 100 % you.

[917] And she was like, she doesn't wipe the baby's butt good enough.

[918] And I was like, huh, that's a bummer because Monica's my favorite babysitter.

[919] What?

[920] Oh my God.

[921] I tell her to wipe her butt better.

[922] I hate this story.

[923] And I remember, well, that's why I never told it to you.

[924] But now so many years later and you're still here.

[925] But I never even saw her.

[926] I've never even met her You have, you just don't remember Because when she told me You were there, babysitting She had showed up But was it Delta?

[927] It had to be Delta Because she was Lincoln was out of diapers By the time you No, she wasn't But why would I be there If she was there Because you were in the day Not really I only, for Lincoln I really only came at night It's mainly you're just date nights But with Delta, yes, but I don't ever remember Miriam there with Delta.

[928] She might have done like a handful of sleepovers with Delta.

[929] Anywho, I remember her telling me that me thinking like, okay, well, I just got to be on high alert if you change the diaper.

[930] It doesn't even sound like me because I use like 45 wipes on those kids.

[931] I didn't necessarily believe it.

[932] You know, some of these people are territorial and no one's good enough.

[933] Yeah, this sounds crazy.

[934] Yes, yes, yes.

[935] It doesn't, it was nothing to me. Well, it could have been my whole life.

[936] She needs to be careful.

[937] I don't think that's true.

[938] It's probably not true.

[939] I mean, it's true that that happened.

[940] Well, no, I believe that.

[941] She told me that.

[942] Believe that.

[943] I don't have Miriam to think.

[944] I could give a fuck about Miriam.

[945] I hate her.

[946] I love Miriam.

[947] It can't be true.

[948] If you think of my personality.

[949] Well, I know it's very inconsistent with your personality, but.

[950] I'm sure I have wiped their butts before and not gotten at all and thought I did.

[951] And then if Miriam was the next person to look there, she might think I don't clean the baby's butt good.

[952] I don't know.

[953] Okay, but here's, there's so many questions, okay?

[954] One, I shouldn't have told you this.

[955] No, you, yeah, I'm glad you told me. If she saw the baby's butt after me, it would have been post poop.

[956] So unless she's just looking at Lincoln's butt randomly, then of course it's not going to look clean because the baby had just poop.

[957] Or sometimes the diapers would fall off as she played.

[958] That would have to be so extreme.

[959] I am not going to try to defend how Miriam knew this or discovered this.

[960] I simply am just telling you that at some point she said, Monica, not wiping the baby's butt good enough.

[961] And I was like, okay, I'll make sure she does it.

[962] Oh, my God.

[963] Wow, wow, wow.

[964] I just don't think it's possible.

[965] I just don't.

[966] Well, I have, I think it's, I know for sure, there's no way.

[967] I was so meticulous.

[968] I was so scared of losing that job.

[969] There's just no way.

[970] I hate her.

[971] Oh my goodness.

[972] I shouldn't ever say anything.

[973] I thought enough time, like statute of limitations, because it was over five years ago.

[974] Still.

[975] Listen, it is possible that I have left poop on their butts.

[976] It could have happened.

[977] Okay, so let's say it happened one time.

[978] Yeah.

[979] Then that's not enough for her to say.

[980] Right.

[981] And it definitely wasn't something I did all the time.

[982] I don't know that she was suggesting.

[983] I don't think she'd ever been around you enough to make that assessment.

[984] Okay.

[985] I think she just found.

[986] Oh, no. I hear it.

[987] Okay.

[988] All right.

[989] Okay.

[990] So secure.

[991] Okay.

[992] But are they suggesting it's the child's bonding style?

[993] No. No, right?

[994] The parents are leading this.

[995] It's the response to however the parents.

[996] parents are perhaps it's sad and I totally understand it but it is sad that there are many parents that maybe didn't want the baby you know or or wanted it and didn't underestimate what it entailed and were very young and we're very stressed with work but yeah yeah it's really sad okay well this is another graph that's kind of interesting okay okay secure attachments 65 % of the generalized U .S. population have this secure attachment according to this.

[997] The child's general state of being, secure, explorative, happy.

[998] Mother's responsiveness to a child's signals and needs.

[999] Quick, sensitive, consistent.

[1000] Okay.

[1001] Fulfillment of the child's needs believes in trust that his, her, needs will be met.

[1002] Okay.

[1003] Avoidant, 20 % of Americans.

[1004] The child's general state of being not very explorative, emotionally distant.

[1005] mother's responsiveness to her child's signals and needs, distant, disengaged.

[1006] Fulfillment of the child's needs, why the child acts the way it does, subconsciously believes that his, her needs probably won't be met.

[1007] Oh.

[1008] Well, the truth is neither you or I have a single memory before four years old when all this happened.

[1009] Yeah.

[1010] So there's really no way for us to know what our parents did.

[1011] But if you have some of these isms, you can kind of reverse engineer, kind of forensically figure out how your mom did you?

[1012] I guess.

[1013] But also, like, I think their parenting still goes, like, I still remember how they parented once I do have memories.

[1014] I don't think they did a big shift at age five when I got memories, you know?

[1015] Right, right.

[1016] Okay, the third one is ambivalent, 10 to 15 percent, child's general state of being anxious, insecure, angry.

[1017] mother's responsiveness to our children's needs inconsistent, sometimes sensitive, sometimes neglectful.

[1018] Fulfillment of the child's needs while the child acts the way it does cannot rely on his or her needs being met.

[1019] Oh, interesting.

[1020] The last one disorganized, 10 to 15 percent, child's general state of being depressed, angry, completely passive, non -responsive.

[1021] Oh.

[1022] Mother's responsiveness to her child's signals and needs, extreme arrest.

[1023] Frightened or frightening, passive or intrusive.

[1024] Oh.

[1025] And then fulfillment of the child's needs severely confused with no strategy to have his or her needs met.

[1026] Oh.

[1027] Eesh.

[1028] It's interesting.

[1029] Oh, happy birthday.

[1030] It's good to know.

[1031] I think people...

[1032] It's just heartbreaking.

[1033] It is heartbreaking.

[1034] But it's good to know because if we're replicating these patterns, it's helpful to know why you're feeling the way you're feeling.

[1035] in that it could have nothing to do with the other person.

[1036] Could it be just simply about your attachments?

[1037] Well, I don't think it ever has anything to do with the other person.

[1038] I mean, 80 %?

[1039] Yeah, yeah.

[1040] So you think you're what?

[1041] I don't know.

[1042] I don't know.

[1043] I don't know.

[1044] Well, I think when I was younger, I identify a little bit with that third category of being self -reliant and I guess kind of ambivalent.

[1045] Although, I don't know.

[1046] I'm just very love addicty.

[1047] That I can, I remember.

[1048] if anyone I was with was getting full -blown attention.

[1049] I have friends who ignore their girlfriends.

[1050] I hate it.

[1051] I find it to be one of the most uncomfortable versions of like a pathology in a relationship to be around when one person's ignoring the other.

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] That is funny.

[1054] I mean, I notice when we're in groups and stuff, the levels of closeness people have physical closeness that couples have.

[1055] Oh, uh -huh.

[1056] Like proximity.

[1057] Yeah, like how often they're touching or sitting on each other's laps or whatever.

[1058] And you guys have the most.

[1059] Oh, really?

[1060] Yeah.

[1061] Oh, that's nice.

[1062] When we're all sitting together, you guys are normally touching.

[1063] And most of the other friends are on the scale somewhere.

[1064] Uh -huh.

[1065] But I would say you guys, majority of the time you're touching.

[1066] And then I'd say like the next level.

[1067] And they are in and out of touching.

[1068] Uh -huh.

[1069] And then there's couples who don't sit next to each other.

[1070] So I'm just really aware of what other people's physical proximities are.

[1071] And it's definitely a scale.

[1072] But I would say you're on the far end of the scale.

[1073] The touchy scale.

[1074] That makes sense.

[1075] Well, if you see me with my mom.

[1076] I know.

[1077] Yeah, I virtually lay in her lap every time she's around.

[1078] It's really sweet that you still.

[1079] do that.

[1080] I just pray my daughters do that because at night I pet their ear really gently and I pet their ear exactly how my mom pets my ear even now as an adult and I think I don't know if they like it because they're just kids.

[1081] I'm sure they love it.

[1082] They're like whatever but I'm like but I hope this will come to symbolize security and that they'll desire it when they're older.

[1083] Do you think you desire what you have or do you desire something you didn't have?

[1084] Well, my mom was very touchy with me. And so was my dad.

[1085] My dad was a big snuggler and a hugger and a kisser and a hand holder.

[1086] Right.

[1087] I think I'm very much like my dad.

[1088] My dad was very like, again, passionate to whoever was in front of him and just drop the ball on making sure the right people were in front of him throughout his life.

[1089] Right.

[1090] Yeah.

[1091] And all my criticisms of my father, I would be so full of shit to be.

[1092] pretend he wasn't like incredibly loving he was super expressive there was a lot of things about him that were really spectacular um that's all that's everything yeah well i i find her intriguing me too yeah yeah and i'm glad she did her show i don't think she does much press yeah she was lovely all right love you love you follow armchair expert on the wondery app amazon music or wherever you get your podcast you can listen to every episode of armchair expert early and add right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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