S13 E15: [Grace] We All Turned Into Numbers

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] Episodes discuss topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, suicide, and murder.

[12] If you're in need of support, please visit Something Was Wrong .com slash resources for a list of non -profit organizations that can help.

[13] I'm not a therapist or a doctor.

[14] Most names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[15] Opinions expressed by guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent my views.

[16] Resources and source material are linked in the episode notes.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] An in -cell, which stands for involuntary celibate, is a member of an online community of men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually.

[19] Incells believe in a violent political ideology, claiming injustice because women refuse to have sex with them.

[20] They're intensely misogynistic, violent, and dangerous.

[21] These men often subscribe to notions of white supremacy, meaning they're also racist as fuck.

[22] Incells believe that feminism has ruined modern society by creating a world in which women are allegedly equal agents, which they believe denies men the dominance they believe is natural and essential for their happiness.

[23] They are, by their own judgment, mostly unattractive and socially inept.

[24] On message boards, they frequently refer to themselves as subhuman.

[25] Over the last few decades, the rise of in -cell violence is terrifying.

[26] In -cell ideology has led to the murders of dozens.

[27] Ellie Roger in 2014 killed six and injured 14 others in an attempt to instigate a war on women for depriving him of sex.

[28] Incells often refer to Elliot Roger as St. Eliot, claiming Elliot as their hero.

[29] In 2015, an in cell killed 10 people and injured 16 others in Toronto, and that same year, another nine people in the U .S. Devastatingly, countless other violent murders have claimed the lives of the innocent in the name of their disturbing in -cell ideologies, a 2018 van -ramming attack in Toronto a 2020 machete attack at a Toronto spa, a mall shooting in Glendale, Arizona, and a mass shooting in Plymouth, England in 2021.

[30] March of 2022, the United States federal government released a study on the growing terrorism threat from men who call themselves anti -feminists or in -cells.

[31] In a 26 -page report, the DOJ state's early intervention and behavioral threat assessments could be the difference between life and death for the women targeted by incels.

[32] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is, something was wrong.

[33] You think you know me, you don't know me well.

[34] My name is Grace.

[35] When I started listening to this podcast, I was at a very low point in my life due to what happened to me. listening to this and listening to true crime, it made me feel so empowered.

[36] Hearing other people's stories, hearing that people had a voice.

[37] I wanted to come on here and tell my story in hopes that if somebody does relate, it might inspire them to keep going.

[38] I met Brent when I was 17 and I went to college.

[39] I was a music major, but I eventually decided to go into theater because that's my passion.

[40] He was a very quiet person.

[41] He didn't really have the best social skills.

[42] There would be a lot of times where we would see him and he would just be sitting by himself.

[43] me and a couple of my other friends and my boyfriend who we weren't dating at this time.

[44] We decided that we wanted to make a new friend and sit with him and invite him to sit with us.

[45] I was always taught when I was a kid that if you see somebody sitting alone, that's how you make a new friend.

[46] That's how I got one of my best friends now.

[47] He was, there was something about him that always seemed a little off, but at the same time, everybody in college is a little off.

[48] I know I am.

[49] So my boyfriend ended up being in a band with him and he ended up living right below him in the dorms.

[50] After my senior year of college, I hadn't seen him.

[51] Years went by.

[52] I graduated.

[53] And in 2000, 2019, my father passed away very, very unexpectedly.

[54] It was and is still very hard on me. And so a lot of times, when I have a problem or when I'm feeling a certain way, it always helps me to post online.

[55] I decided I was going to make a post saying how much I missed my dad.

[56] That wasn't even a year into his death.

[57] I made a post, and I said, I miss you.

[58] you so much, I got a comment.

[59] And it says something along the lines of, the death of your father is nothing compared to being an insult, too ugly to love.

[60] When I saw that, I was like, who posted this?

[61] Who is this?

[62] And it was Brent.

[63] I was like, what?

[64] The quiet kid who was always nice.

[65] I was blown away that this person could be saying this horrible thing and be so insensitive.

[66] I am so incredibly sorry for your loss and that he used something that is so incredibly painful to inflict even more harm.

[67] Thank you.

[68] It was really, really horrible.

[69] So I responded and I was like, this can't be you.

[70] or have you been hacked?

[71] He said, no, it's really me, but never being with a girl has turned me into an in -cell.

[72] Right away, all of my Facebook friends came to my defense, and they were going off on him, ripping him the shreds.

[73] And he responded back by saying some of the most horrible things in the world to them.

[74] I commented, and I was like, you know what?

[75] I am just going to be kind because he clearly needs a friend.

[76] I talked to him and I said, listen, this isn't the way to make friends.

[77] This isn't the way to find a relationship.

[78] I'll be your friend, but I will not be your friend if you have all of this hate in your heart and you continue with this in -cell stuff.

[79] He said, okay, if you're going to be my friend, then I'll try to stop.

[80] I'm writing a book.

[81] would you mind reading it?

[82] So I said, yeah, sure.

[83] I will read your book and we can talk.

[84] I read his book and it's a little disturbing.

[85] I don't remember it exactly, but it had something to do with a boy who gets shot by his father.

[86] It was really, really weird.

[87] To have this situation and know that he's an in -cell and he's writing about this.

[88] It was just a little disturbing.

[89] I told him maybe he should post it on one of those sites where he could make friends and people can comment on it and people could wait for the next chapter to come out.

[90] I thought that would be a good idea.

[91] He said he would do it and that was that.

[92] Or so I thought.

[93] Now, I have always had social anxiety and I'm an actress.

[94] I do theater shows.

[95] You're rehearsing every day for months on end for four hours straight.

[96] So if you get a message from somebody, you're not always going to have the time to answer them.

[97] Also, I don't owe anybody an answer, not right away.

[98] He would message me and I would either be busy or I did not have the energy to respond to him.

[99] and he would blow up my phone.

[100] And then when I didn't answer him, he would message my boyfriend's band page and would go on all of the pictures and comment things that I do not like to say, so I'm not going to say them, but he would comment all these terrible things on these pictures and on every post.

[101] I mean, it would be constant blowing up the page.

[102] and they were trying to get big, so it wasn't a good look for them to have somebody doing this.

[103] Eventually, I messaged him and I said, what are you doing?

[104] Why are you doing this?

[105] And he said, well, I'm sorry, but I thought you abandoned me like all the other girls have.

[106] And I was like, listen, I'm your friend, but I'm not going to stand for you doing this to my boyfriend.

[107] That's not okay.

[108] He said, oh, I'm sorry, it won't happen again.

[109] and I said, all right, I'll still talk to you, but I have to go to bed.

[110] I'm exhausted.

[111] I just got back from rehearsing.

[112] And he said, fine, no problem.

[113] The next day, he messaged me again.

[114] I responded pretty quickly that time.

[115] And he decided to start ranting about my boyfriend, calling him a Chad, which I guess in -sale terms means like a attractive, douchy guy.

[116] and calling me a Stacy, which in cell terms means a pretty girl, he would say to me that I'm only with my boyfriend because of his good looks and that he knows that I got beat by him.

[117] He lived below him, and he's heard me getting beaten by him.

[118] First of all, my boyfriend is an incredible person, and he has never touched me, has never laid a finger on me. And everybody has arguments, but any time that we would fight with each other, he would think that I was getting abused by him.

[119] I laid it down and I said, that never happened.

[120] And I don't know why you would think that.

[121] But when people are in a relationship, they argue sometimes.

[122] Theo has never touched me. He said, oh, okay, okay, I guess I must have been mistaken.

[123] And I said, listen, I told you I'm not going to be your friend.

[124] If you keep up with this in -cell crap, I'm not going to do it.

[125] And he said, okay, I'll stop, I'll stop.

[126] About two months of this goes on.

[127] It was around December.

[128] He messages me and says, I'm sorry, but I know that you're only with Theo because of his good looks and I'm not going to pretend that you're not.

[129] He says, your boyfriend has a horrible personality and I mean, they were more friends than I was with him.

[130] So I don't see how he could be saying this about Theo.

[131] I said enough of this and I blocked him.

[132] And that was the start of the worst year of my life.

[133] She struck him with her motor vehicle, she had been under the influence and then she left him there.

[134] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[135] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[136] What happens next?

[137] Depends on who you ask.

[138] Was it a crime of passion?

[139] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[140] This was clearly an intentional act.

[141] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[142] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[143] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[144] Everyone had an opinion.

[145] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[146] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[147] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[148] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[149] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[150] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[151] I'm Sachi Cole.

[152] And I'm Sarah Hagey.

[153] And we're the host of Scam Fluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery, that takes.

[154] takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

[155] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[156] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[157] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judiceyche, which she should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[158] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[159] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[160] After I blocked him on my Facebook, I didn't right away block him on Instagram or on anything else because I didn't really think that I had to.

[161] I look at my phone and I'm getting a bunch of messages and comments on Instagram saying, I'm so sorry, please forgive me. I shouldn't have said that.

[162] Then the next comment would be, your stupid slut.

[163] It would go on and on because he knows that the last time that he blew up my boyfriend's band page, that I messaged him to get him to stop.

[164] But this time, I told Theo that he should block him from commenting, and we figured out how to do that.

[165] So he wasn't able to comment anymore.

[166] And once he saw that, that's when he decided to go on Instagram.

[167] I blocked the Instagram account, and then he tried the same thing on Theo's Instagram.

[168] We both blocked the account.

[169] Then, all of a sudden, another comment from another Instagram page pops up saying the same thing.

[170] First, it's, I'm so, so sorry, I shouldn't have said that.

[171] Next, it's, you're really stupid for doing this to me, you'll be sorry, constant.

[172] At that point, I didn't want to go private because, like I said, I'm an actress, and I like having a public page.

[173] I'm a singer too, so I want to be able to post a cover or something.

[174] And he kept going.

[175] It was constant.

[176] I tried to ignore it and I said, okay, it's going to stop.

[177] It'll be fine.

[178] It'll stop.

[179] Then I post a cover on YouTube of me singing a song and I get a message on this cover that says, hey, using a fake name so that if I do show this to the police, that he won't get caught and then says, this cover is on fire and he's going to blow up the house and it's going to really be fire with me and him inside.

[180] So if I were to show this to the police, they would say, oh, well, I see that it's kind of threatening, but it's not really.

[181] I'm really nervous.

[182] This is weird.

[183] But I still didn't go to the police at that point.

[184] I get a comment on a post I made on Twitter, and it says, what's funnier than one Stacy nailed to a tree?

[185] One Stacy nailed to 10 trees.

[186] When I saw that, I was like, this has to stop.

[187] and I went to the police.

[188] They were not helpful at all.

[189] And they say, well, it's not illegal to be annoying.

[190] Then they say, if we respond to every person who's paranoid, then we wouldn't have a job anymore.

[191] What does that mean?

[192] How are you going to say something like that to somebody who's clearly terrified?

[193] I had all of the screenshots on my phone.

[194] but they don't want to look at your phone.

[195] They don't care.

[196] They don't want to scroll through.

[197] They don't listen.

[198] And this was a woman saying this to me. So that was even worse.

[199] I was like, you know, I could see if a man is going to say this to me because he doesn't understand, but a woman saying this to me, it was horrible.

[200] I said, what do you recommend that I do?

[201] Can you give him a call and tell him to stop?

[202] No, we can't do that.

[203] Okay?

[204] What do you suggest that I do?

[205] And they say, why don't you?

[206] try to find his mom, I was like, all right, it's worth a shot.

[207] I sent her a message and I said, this is what your son has been doing.

[208] I sent her screenshots.

[209] And I said, I am really scared that he's going to find me. And she responded with, I'm so sorry, we'll talk to him.

[210] So I thought that maybe that would be it, but it wasn't.

[211] He then gets even more angry and says, how dare you tell my mother that I said these things to you?

[212] How dare you?

[213] I really am going to get you now.

[214] And that was even more scary.

[215] So it kept happening and I kept going to the police and they kept going to the police and they kept turning me away.

[216] I went so many times.

[217] There was a point where I got so scared because I had made myself private at this point and because I was private and he couldn't access me at all, he was reaching out to my friends now.

[218] Any sort of friends that I had, he would be commenting on their posts saying tell Grace that I'm going to change and then saying to tell grace that I'm going to change and then saying to them, and this is so disgusting, saying to them, how much come do you guzzle on a daily basis?

[219] I mean, I'm telling, it's just disgusting, the things that he was saying.

[220] I don't even want to repeat them, and they're about my friends.

[221] So I was really upset after seeing that he was going to my friends.

[222] I called the police again, thinking, okay, well, maybe this officer that I'm talking to could do something.

[223] Instead, he decides to tell me that I don't have a case, but he's screaming at me saying, I'm not going to send my men over there when there's better things that I could be doing.

[224] You don't have a case.

[225] And I started bawling.

[226] I mean, I had been going through this for at least four months at this point, waking up to death threats every morning, and still, Still, this man has the audacity to make me feel worse.

[227] Again, I went to the police.

[228] They said, if he shows up, call us.

[229] And I messaged the mom again, and she still said, oh, don't worry, it's going to be okay.

[230] His father's going to talk to him.

[231] I get a message back from his mother with a winky face saying, you look so beautiful.

[232] beautiful.

[233] And I wasn't even safe there.

[234] He messaged me through his mom's account.

[235] I realized that I wasn't the only one.

[236] I wasn't alone.

[237] He was doing this to other girls.

[238] Some that I knew from college, some that I didn't.

[239] None of them really that I was close to.

[240] But they were scared too.

[241] And I was like, you know what, I am going to start a group with these girls and I'm going to tell them what's going on and maybe they'll have some sort of resources or have some sort of idea where maybe we can get this guy.

[242] We all would message each other saying, hey, I got this message from him or, hey, my boyfriend called him and this is what he said or he's messaged me. and we would all be supportive.

[243] It made me feel a lot better.

[244] What was your boyfriend's perspective at this point?

[245] My boyfriend, he has a very big personality, and he has a soft side to him, but he's a very no -nonsense kind of person.

[246] He got angry right away.

[247] He was actually the one to organize all of the pictures, He was the one who said, okay, screenshot everything and send them over to me. I'm going to print them.

[248] Unfortunately, when you're a woman going to the police, they tend to think you're overreacting or being emotional.

[249] And he said, I know that you wanted to handle this on your own, but if I go to the police, they're probably going to listen to me because men suck.

[250] I'm sorry, but they do sometimes.

[251] He went and he was the one who got it started and was actually able to get them to listen.

[252] He had his police officer contact me and try to make me feel a little bit better about the situation.

[253] He was there for me to lean on.

[254] I would call him and send him screenshots and tell him about everything that was going on.

[255] I would cry to him.

[256] He would come over.

[257] He was there for me in a way that, I don't think I would be able to get through it if it wasn't for him.

[258] The worst part about everything is how alone I felt.

[259] I wasn't able to grieve the loss of my father in that first year because of this.

[260] All I was focusing on was keeping myself safe, keeping my boyfriend safe, my mother is disabled, and in my head I was just thinking, if he comes in, how can I leave?

[261] How can I get my mom to safety?

[262] How can I get out of this house?

[263] How can I take my cats and get them out safely if he comes and lights my house on fire like he said he wanted to do?

[264] These are things that I was thinking, some of my thoughts got so dark and I had thought to myself, maybe I'll let him win and I'll take my own life.

[265] Maybe if I'm not here, maybe things will be better.

[266] And if it wasn't for my boyfriend, my mom and my grandma and my friends, I don't think I would have gotten through it.

[267] But I did.

[268] And I'm glad I'm still here.

[269] I'm glad I'm able to tell this story.

[270] He sends a text message.

[271] to my boyfriend and says, let's talk like men.

[272] He says, okay, but who is this?

[273] And he doesn't want to give his name because he knew what my boyfriend was trying to do.

[274] He gave some sort of a ridiculous fake name.

[275] But then, when my boyfriend wasn't having it and wasn't responding, he sends a picture of a girl that was killed by Elliot Roger, who was like the leader of the incels.

[276] He started the movement, and all of the incels, they all worship this guy.

[277] And he sends a picture of her.

[278] She has a similar resemblance of me and said, this is what happened to someone who rejected Elliot Rogers.

[279] Let's hope that Grace didn't reject someone like Elliot Rogers.

[280] That scared both of us so much, but he was using his real phone, so we thought maybe we got him.

[281] My boyfriend lives in a different state from me and goes to his police and shows this message.

[282] But he didn't just take screenshots.

[283] He printed them out.

[284] I mean, this was a ginormous book of everything that he's done to me. in the last seven months at this point.

[285] He shows all of this stuff.

[286] And the officer was like, hmm, no, this doesn't do anything.

[287] This isn't going to help.

[288] But then he looks and he sees the picture of the girl who passed away.

[289] And he said, this can know.

[290] He takes that same number that he texted my boyfriend from.

[291] And this police officer says, hey, I know what you're doing.

[292] I need you to stop, this is illegal, this is harassment.

[293] And he doesn't believe that he's an actual police officer.

[294] He thinks that it's some random friend of ours calling and pretending to be the police.

[295] So he starts cursing him out.

[296] Saying to this police officer, what's your badge number?

[297] I know you're not a real cop.

[298] I'm going to get you arrested.

[299] I know the cops around here saying all this stuff.

[300] when he's talking to a real police officer and he hangs up.

[301] When I heard this story, I could not believe that he did that.

[302] They were able to contact the state police where he lives and have somebody come to his house and talk to him.

[303] The state policeman was actually from my town and he decided to give me a call because he said people from my town need to stick together and he told me that he spoke to him and that he promised not to contact me or my boyfriend anymore and told me that he said that women were always mean to him and always rejected him so he was going to be 10 times meaner to any woman.

[304] And I mean, that is just so ridiculous.

[305] The real reason that he's upset is because he feels like women owe him sex.

[306] That's basically what an incal is.

[307] I felt a little bit of relief when I heard this because I thought who would get a knock on their door from the police and continue to harass someone after getting spoken to about it.

[308] I really felt like maybe this could be it.

[309] I let the other girls know what's been going on and that it might be over and we all just felt so much relief.

[310] I woke up and I see that he messages my friend.

[311] He says the most terrible things.

[312] I mean, worse than...

[313] worse than I've seen.

[314] He said that he was happy that the maggots were eating my father and he said that when him and I die were going to be in heaven together forever.

[315] I remember the exact moment when I saw what he said about my father.

[316] It tore me apart.

[317] It really did.

[318] This wasn't even a year into me grieving my father.

[319] He passed away so suddenly.

[320] So for him to be saying these things about my father, who was just such an incredible person, it was just awful to hear.

[321] He also was now making more Twitter accounts because I would block every account that he's made, and he had to have made over 100 accounts altogether.

[322] He made an account that was impersonating my boyfriend's mother.

[323] He made an account that was impersonating my boyfriend and was messaging people these horrible things, pretending to be my boyfriend.

[324] He made an account, and he used my father's name and said, Grace's dad is dead, ha, ha.

[325] I couldn't believe.

[326] I mean, how do you even...

[327] How does Twitter even let somebody make an account like that?

[328] That was awful.

[329] He has these other accounts on Twitter with random names, but now the pictures that he's posting for the profile pictures are just getting weird.

[330] One of them is his face, but in between his legs.

[331] And another one is a picture of him licking a picture of me. It's just gross.

[332] I was, again, trying to go to the police.

[333] I went, and he turned me away.

[334] When I got home from that, I was like, no, no, this isn't happening.

[335] I'm going to get through to somebody.

[336] Someone is going to listen to me. I called the police right when I got home.

[337] And finally, somebody said, there isn't much I can do, but I will file a report and you're going to be able to press charges.

[338] I was like, really?

[339] Oh my God, really?

[340] He set me up with this detective.

[341] He gives me a call and tells me that they're going to try to subpoena the accounts, but that it's going to take a really long time, and there's probably nothing that could be done.

[342] but he says that he's going to try.

[343] Okay, at least I'm getting somewhere.

[344] I'm sitting in bed and I get a text from a friend asking me if I was okay.

[345] And I said, yeah, I'm fine.

[346] What's going on?

[347] And he says, is Theo beating you?

[348] And I said, what?

[349] Why would you think that?

[350] And he calls me and sends me a screenshot and says that, I just messaged him on Instagram saying that I didn't know what to do and that I needed advice because Theo had been beating me for years and I wasn't sure if I should call the police.

[351] I started bawling on the phone and I felt bad because this isn't one of those friends that I've really gotten close enough that they've seen me like that before.

[352] I was mortified.

[353] I couldn't believe that.

[354] And in my head, I'm thinking, how many people has he messaged?

[355] Is he going to get my boyfriend in jail?

[356] He was trying so hard to tear apart every aspect of my life.

[357] This person that he messaged was also the director of the show that I was in as well.

[358] It was also affecting my work.

[359] I look at this account and it had like three or four posts.

[360] It had like 30 -something followers.

[361] I wanted to see the posts, but I couldn't see what they were because it was private.

[362] But it was me. It was a picture that I had taken that day.

[363] I ended up calling the police again because at this point, I'm like, if they're not going to help me, I'm going to annoy the crap out of them.

[364] They came over and basically said that even though he was impersonating me, that my boyfriend won't go to jail unless I say it to them, and even then, who knows?

[365] I'd have to prove it, which that's a disgusting comment on its own.

[366] The next day, I got a message from one of the girls that he had went to high school with that was also getting harassed by him, and she had told me that he had messaged her that morning saying that the kids at their old high school better watch out and that he has a gun.

[367] That on its own should have been such a red flag that I don't see how they could see that and not go and lock him up forever.

[368] But it didn't do that much.

[369] The detective that I was working with told me that even though there isn't much, that he can do he's going to try to call the police over there and see if they could come to his house again luckily he had reached the state police officer that had spoken to me in the first place saying that he was from the same town as me and this guy was so pissed off he said i had spoken to him and he knew he understood i had made it very clear that he was not to talk to talk to you or your boyfriend or any of your friends.

[370] And I said, well, he has been talking to all of my friends and messaging all of my friends and impersonating me and he started messaging me again personally.

[371] And he said, no, absolutely not.

[372] I'm going to go over there and I'm going to talk to him.

[373] And I'm going to call you back when I leave because I'm not letting this happen.

[374] I'm Dan Tiberski.

[375] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[376] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[377] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[378] She's like, I can't.

[379] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[380] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[381] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[382] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[383] Well, you were holding something back.

[384] Intentionally.

[385] Yeah, yeah.

[386] Well, yeah.

[387] No, it's hysteria.

[388] It's all in your head.

[389] It's not physical.

[390] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[391] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[392] Or is it something else entirely?

[393] Something's wrong here.

[394] Something's not right.

[395] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[396] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[397] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[398] You can binge all episodes of Histerical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[399] They ended up taking him to a mental health facility.

[400] So, again, you think, wow, maybe this is going to be over.

[401] Great.

[402] But no, he got out in less than 24 hours after admitting all of these things.

[403] He didn't even try to hide the fact that he was harassing me like this.

[404] He admitted everything, and they still said, well, there's nothing really.

[405] wrong with him.

[406] He's just sad.

[407] How does that make sense?

[408] He went home the next day.

[409] Another thing that really freaked me out was that he was a mailman.

[410] This guy had people's addresses.

[411] He was a federal worker.

[412] So that really freaked me out.

[413] I had so many instances where I thought it was going to be over and it wasn't.

[414] This guy actually made me feel so much better because he gave me his card, he gave me his email, and he told me to send him everything that I have.

[415] I can't stress this enough.

[416] You need to save everything, everything.

[417] Even if you think that it's really small, screenshot and save everything and never delete it, even if it's really painful.

[418] Save it because I was able to put it all in a Google Doc and send it right over to the guy.

[419] And he got the FBI involved.

[420] This amazing agent, she was so nice.

[421] She made me feel so relieved, like something was actually going to be fixed.

[422] Something was going to be done about this.

[423] She had actually been through something similar herself.

[424] And she said, this is my top priority.

[425] I'm not focusing on anything else.

[426] I want you to feel safe.

[427] She drove about two hours to come and see me and asked me questions.

[428] I gave her everything that I had.

[429] And she said, this is really good.

[430] Any information that she needed, she'd call me and I would give it to her.

[431] I always had everything on hand just in case.

[432] I knew that she was trying to make this happen.

[433] I had gotten a temporary order of protection.

[434] And if anybody doesn't know, they are so hard to get.

[435] If you have never dated the person that you're trying to get the order of protection from or they're not in your family, it's almost impossible.

[436] I had tried so hard and they just said, no, unless you guys dated.

[437] did you guys date?

[438] Did you have any sort of romantic relationship whatsoever?

[439] And I said, no, I mean, I could tell you that I did, but I didn't.

[440] I'm not a liar.

[441] I'm not going to lie to you.

[442] And they said, well, then there's nothing we can do.

[443] Finally, they were able to get me a temporary order of protection.

[444] I had gotten this call from the FBI, and she told me that she has a victim specialist and to give her a little bit more time and they're going to get him.

[445] I was like, okay, maybe this could work and I was updating the girls in the screw chat, telling them what was going on.

[446] I was celebrating my seven -year anniversary with my boyfriend, and we decided to go on vacation.

[447] We were having a good time, and I felt so much safer being further away from him.

[448] I had gotten a call from the FBI agent and she says, we got him.

[449] We went to his job.

[450] We arrested him there.

[451] And on a side note, I love how they chose to arrest him at his job, just to add in that little extra flare of embarrassment instead of waiting for him to get home and arresting him there.

[452] They said that they arrested him and that he's going to federal prison.

[453] They were able to get a warrant out for his arrest for cyber harassment.

[454] At that point, there was an impersonation charge, but that ended up getting dropped because it was easier to pursue the other two.

[455] The other one, I believe it was interstate communication.

[456] Something about the fact that he was not in the same state as my boyfriend when he was harassing him.

[457] and that was another big federal charge.

[458] The amount of relief that I felt at that point, working with this superhero of an FBI agent and feeling like he's never going to hurt anybody again.

[459] That's what I felt at the time.

[460] It's not always that simple, and it's never really over.

[461] I was so used to getting these notifications that he made that any notification that I got, I started feeling anxiety about it.

[462] I started having night terrors where I would be laying down and my heart felt like it was racing.

[463] And I started seeing these hallucinations while I was sleeping.

[464] I think that's called lucid dreaming, but it was so scary.

[465] And my anxiety and depression got so bad.

[466] I was a dog walker at the time, and I was carrying mace around and looking around me. And any time that I would see a mail truck, I would be so freaked out that it was him.

[467] I was constantly looking over my shoulders.

[468] Even now, I still do it.

[469] If I see a mail truck, I'm wondering, even though I know it's not possible, I'm wondering if maybe he managed to get out.

[470] he had been in jail for about two years at this point and they decided to not do a trial because they knew that they would probably lose.

[471] They said that they wanted to take a plea deal, so he pled guilty, which I am so glad that I didn't have to go in front of a bunch of people and be quite, questioned by a lawyer, that really would have freaked me out.

[472] When I went to give my deposition, I went to the state police to do it, and I gave them a rundown of everything.

[473] They had all of the screenshots and all of the papers and everything on them.

[474] They were so shocked that my local police wouldn't do anything.

[475] They couldn't believe it.

[476] They were like, why wasn't this handled when you first went?

[477] And I said, you wouldn't believe me if I told you how many times that I actually went to the police before anything got done.

[478] Nobody would take me seriously.

[479] I even submitted something online to the FBI, thinking, maybe they'll be able to help me. What really got me was that the state, officer that really made this whole thing happen said that I'm actually very lucky and that my case and my situation is very rare and that most women and most people who get harassed on the internet they just have to deal with it and that it's not always that everything falls into place like it did for me. It got me thinking that there have to be so many other people that are experiencing this.

[480] There are so many other people who are screaming and screaming to the world saying, please, can somebody help me?

[481] Cyber harassment is a real issue and I have said so many times to the police, you're not going to listen to me until I'm dead.

[482] I don't want to want a law to be made after I'm gone.

[483] I want to help people now.

[484] I want change.

[485] I ended up having to do a victim impact statement, which I guess I didn't have to do it, but I know it helps.

[486] It makes everything better, and it makes the judge see that you are really impacted by everything that happened.

[487] It was really difficult.

[488] I wrote it out, and I waited for the sentence.

[489] to happen.

[490] I went and I was shaking like crazy being in there.

[491] I haven't seen him since the end of college in person.

[492] He was sitting there and I was shaking.

[493] It was an uncontrollable feeling of being so scared.

[494] I knew he wasn't going to hurt me because he was in handcuffs, but it was so scary.

[495] I had the FBI agent on one side of me, and I had my boyfriend on the other.

[496] He also had to do an impact statement.

[497] I read it, and I was shaking and crying the whole time that I had to read it.

[498] It was very traumatic for me to have to do, and I didn't think it would be, but it was.

[499] He ended up only getting 10 months, 10 extra months in prison, and And then three years of probation and not being able to have his phone unmonitored.

[500] When I was in that room, I found out that he was actively planning an attack on me and on my boyfriend.

[501] The last things that he had looked up was how to make a firearm, how to obtain an legal firearm, my name, my boyfriend's name, our addresses, and he had a picture of my house saved on his phone.

[502] His lawyer tried to argue and say they were just words.

[503] He didn't do anything.

[504] He should be let out of jail now.

[505] Luckily, the judge was not having any of that bullshit, and he was arguing with him the whole time.

[506] He tries to submit an anger management course that he took, saying, he's fine, he took this course, he's going to be better.

[507] The judge, again, was having none of it.

[508] Then it was time for him to read his little thing that he had prepared.

[509] The amount of fake crying and tears that he had, he was sniffling into the microphone, but wasn't sniffling away from the microphone.

[510] They said that he was going to be in jail for 10 more months.

[511] I'm so incredibly sorry that you experienced this.

[512] And the fact that they would try to argue that this is just words, I'm just, I'm so glad that the judge was having fucking none of it.

[513] Thank God for that and thank God for the FBI getting involved.

[514] What were your feelings about his sentence?

[515] And what is it like coming to terms with the fact that he will be out?

[516] in X number of months.

[517] Right now, I'm taking every day for what it is and enjoying the feeling that I have of safety.

[518] I know that it's not going to last.

[519] I know that I'm probably going to have a lot of those same feelings come back.

[520] The nightmares still haven't stopped, and I don't think they ever will.

[521] I think the maximum that he could have done, gotten was five years in total and six years probation.

[522] And he's going to be out in less than a year.

[523] I want so badly to believe that I'm never going to have to go through what I went through again.

[524] But I know that since the career that I want to pursue has me being in the public, I'm in a band now and I have to promote that I'm having a show at this point.

[525] place and how can I do that and feel safe, especially when there's so many horrible things happening in the world right now.

[526] How can I say where I'm going to be knowing that he could find me and he could look it up and he could come and find me?

[527] It's such a conflicting emotion.

[528] I'm so appreciative of you being vulnerable and sharing this story.

[529] Like the officer shared with you, It's one of the few stories that I've heard of where there's, quote, justice, which is really eye -opening and it's sad and scary.

[530] And I think a lot of people in general and myself, before I really dug in and started doing this work, we think, like, certainly this must be illegal.

[531] Like, honestly, I could start a whole other podcast just called Why the Fuck Isn't This Illegal.

[532] But it's maddening how behind our laws are.

[533] And a lot of people, respectfully that create the laws in the United States that are being passed.

[534] I don't think necessarily have the technological understanding to create laws that we need to keep people safe.

[535] And I appreciate you being willing to share your story because like you said, I think so many people sadly can relate and understand what it's like to either be bullied or be stalked or harassed online.

[536] And feel that empty feeling of like wanting to scream into the void or feeling like no one is listening to you and there's nothing being done.

[537] And I certainly hope that one day we'll be able to do something to change that.

[538] Hopefully someone will hear this that can actually do something about it.

[539] But I just cannot thank you enough for being willing to share.

[540] What do you hope that listeners will take away from hearing your story?

[541] I hope that anybody listening to this knows that they have a voice and that they can be heard.

[542] It might take a little while like it did for me, but you will be heard and if you scream loud enough, someone will hear you.

[543] When he got arrested, an article had come out with his name and talking about what he had done.

[544] And everyone from my college, was sharing this post and was commenting, saying that they always knew something was off about him.

[545] A lot of them had messaged me asking me if I knew about this or if I was a person.

[546] It was crazy to me because when you have an article like that written about you, the names are redacted and you're just a number.

[547] He had done this to so many people, we all turned into numbers of victims.

[548] I'm a person, and when you read these articles, it's so hard to picture who this is happening to.

[549] It's so hard to put yourself into the shoes of this person and the victims, but to see yourself as just a number when you just went through this whole ordeal for a year, it was really such a weird feeling.

[550] It seems like it could be very dehumanizing.

[551] Yeah, that's the perfect word to describe it.

[552] I'm so sorry.

[553] Thank you.

[554] Because we use pseudonyms for most of the survivors who share on the show, I try to think of something that kind of inspires their pseudonym.

[555] Sometimes it's just random, but I was skimming the list of names and I saw we hadn't used the name grace yet.

[556] And I was like, that's perfect because your compassion and your empathy to reach out to this person when you saw them alone originally, it really moved me. And then when this person said something so horrific about your father, that initial first comment on Facebook after he had just passed, you had grace for this person and you still said, I'm going to try and be friends with you because you're clearly someone who, feeling alone, you have such an empathetic and compassionate, kind soul.

[557] And I'm so sorry that someone kind of tried to rob you of that, but I'm so glad that you're here and that you kept fighting.

[558] And thank you again so much for all of your time and energy and bravery, sharing your story with us.

[559] Thank you.

[560] Thank you so much for listening.

[561] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[562] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production, created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[563] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[564] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[565] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[566] Thank you so much.

[567] If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now, by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[568] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music.

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