237 - Anti-Hype Man

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hardstar.

[3] That's Karen Kilgara.

[4] This is a podcast.

[5] Welcome.

[6] You know that because you press that little purple icon on your phone and you're listening to podcasts.

[7] That's right.

[8] This is not a TV show.

[9] Don't wait for the visual part.

[10] This isn't an audio book.

[11] We're not going to read you a story.

[12] No. This is a this is not this is nonfiction.

[13] Right?

[14] Nonfiction is true.

[15] Yes.

[16] It's all so confusing.

[17] I remember being taught that in like 50.

[18] grade and being like, who's in charge?

[19] This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

[20] Excuse me. How hard are you trying to make the English language?

[21] This is that thing where like guys that play the guitar won't just show you how to make a chord with your hand.

[22] They need to talk about all the different whatever where it's like you could just call non -fiction's not true.

[23] That was the clearly.

[24] This is under the same category of when am I ever going to need math in my adult life?

[25] Yes, it all goes in.

[26] It all goes in there.

[27] The education.

[28] Let us reconfigure the education system.

[29] We are just here for this.

[30] Distinctly remember being around 10 and being like, I will now say how we're going to refer to books that are true or are not true.

[31] Yes.

[32] Not true is nonfiction.

[33] True is fiction.

[34] This is how I needed to go.

[35] Man, I fucking missed the day where they taught yours, your, you are, that one.

[36] Yeah.

[37] Or let's, one of those and just wasn't like in elementary school and just never figured it out until high school because I just missed that fucking day of class.

[38] Yeah, that's that same thing happened to me with long division, which kicked off my math anxiety that became such a bad thing for me. I flunked algebra third quarter of high school and then had to go to a hypnotist to try to relieve my math anxiety.

[39] Wow.

[40] That's a cool.

[41] Who ordered that?

[42] Pat Kilgareff.

[43] She's all about it.

[44] She's so smart.

[45] She got in there.

[46] But then I was like, you know Pat and I know.

[47] that this is not I can have math anxiety for the rest of my life and it's never truly going to impact me well at least the nuns didn't just smack it out of you like at least pat was like let me do something that might actually work let me step in and make up some dumb bullshit you know what I think works acupuncture which it actually does that does work yeah that's ancient it's ancient I love those ancient ones where it's like who who here our country's been around for what is it 150 years who here is arguing ancient 5 ,000 year old medical knowledge how dare you're smarter than 5 ,000 years old don't think so do you know what I'm going to do when this pandemic is over first thing ayahuasca shit I would have let you what would you guess what would you go to the Edendale Barn Grill actually that's the first one that's number one that's what you said first thing um are you really going to do iawaska do an internal reset i think i'm going to do iawaska and okay this is a great segue into the podcast that you have fucking set me down a rabbit hole on oh my god stephen write down the day and time and date because georgia has taken one of my recommendations right right to heart immediately this podcast called this is actually happening you text me yesterday about it and i've listened to three episodes already.

[48] And last night I was listening to an episode.

[49] It's basically people's true stories of just bananas things that's happened to them in their lives.

[50] And usually extremely negative.

[51] Right.

[52] Because that's the most satisfying story to hear somebody.

[53] It's like, I won the lottery.

[54] And then life and how their lives change.

[55] I mean, it's beautiful.

[56] And it's incredible.

[57] There's no narrator.

[58] It's just the person telling their story in the most beautiful way.

[59] And so the one I listen to is called What If You Enter the Void?

[60] And it's this incredible.

[61] I mean, it's, I've never heard depression explained so beautifully and succinctly.

[62] And he goes and does ayahuasca after a lifetime of depression.

[63] And I haven't gotten to the end yet.

[64] So I don't know if it works or not.

[65] But I should feel like it must.

[66] So I'm just going to do it.

[67] Yeah, I totally want to do ayahuasca.

[68] That's amazing.

[69] Well, wait.

[70] So that's split off.

[71] That's two conversations.

[72] So let's pause on the, um, pause on the, um, pause on aoyalaska because I definitely want to come back to that.

[73] But my, the first one.

[74] So I'm, I'm, I ask.

[75] Jay actually to help me find this because I'm off Twitter but then also I'm the worst conversation.

[76] Put a pin in that one.

[77] Okay.

[78] That's right.

[79] This is going to go back.

[80] Steven, start making a homeland red thread map for this conversation.

[81] But oh, so I tried to ask because somebody actually, this was off of the radio rental recommendation of the last podcast I recommended.

[82] I believe it was the most recent.

[83] Somebody wrote in and said if you like that, you're going to love this is actually happening.

[84] And I really want to give you credit if you would write back in.

[85] If you'd email in, that would actually help.

[86] And don't lie.

[87] And don't try to.

[88] We can back check.

[89] We can just look at it.

[90] Don't steal valor.

[91] Yeah, exactly.

[92] Oh, so the first one I listened to, because I really think the idea that people, and I wouldn't say that every person telling their story and this is a quote unquote victim in some way, but there are people who have these experiences that when you hear about them, it's so extreme.

[93] It's so bizarre.

[94] There's, There's a guy who talks about how he was homeless, him and his father were homeless, and he was also trans.

[95] And then he gets put into a shelter because he was still under age when this was happening.

[96] And then someone at the shelter whose name I want puts him in touch with people who live up in the Bay Area who are also trans people.

[97] And it's like you're welcome to come and live with us for super cheap.

[98] and then those people turn out to be living it's um what if you get pulled into an alternate reality or it's it's called something like that and it's one of the most upsetting but but the but the narrator is so incredibly strong and of his own mind the entire story yeah where he's basically going i just was agreeing to get so i could get out of the house i just kept going with it and they were literally like everything is the government is watching you and you're being manipulated and you have to do what we say and all this stuff that like I feel like a less strong person would have been so vulnerable to this concept of two people doing it to him pointing out all this stuff and like that's how you know you're not safe and all this stuff and he just like got super cheap rent in the city while he tried to get his degree it's an incredible story that he got himself out of I don't remember where I saw this, but someone we posted, oh, we, in the, I shouldn't be reading comments.

[99] This is part of the social media thing, but someone commented in one of the episodes that we posted recently that was live, she said, I didn't realize that the cheap rent I got from this, wait, I didn't realize that the cheap rent I got when I lived in this random place was because I moved into a cult until Karen covered the cult at a live show and I was sitting in the audience.

[100] she also needs to write to us she's like i was sitting in the audience and realized that i used to live in like a cult compound because the rent was cheap and i didn't know what to care about the story oh my wait is that the um the bakers the baker yes i was going to say it's like the yellow yellow deli or something like that yeah i think it's that yeah it's a study and empathy this this show there's one that i just listened to that's like kind of a newer one that i text you holy shit but is what if someone you love committed a monstrous crime.

[101] Did you listen to that one?

[102] No. Oh my God.

[103] Oh my God.

[104] I will for sure.

[105] It's unbelievable.

[106] I just can't wait to like fucking listen to all of them.

[107] There's so many good ones.

[108] But the one, the first one I sent you is called what if it happened in broad daylight.

[109] About a woman who was attacked at the bank.

[110] And it's the craziest, creepiest story.

[111] But the way she talks about how she doesn't like being treated as the, the quote unquote victim of this crime is was was really eye -opening and really important to hear that's why I always love firsthand accounts of the person that actually went through it because they get to dictate how you know what I mean like she was talking about when it first happened you know she's they bring her into the back yeah her neck gets sliced with a knife yeah and and everyone around her's freaking out and she's like it must have been like the adrenaline being in shock but she didn't think anything bad happened to her.

[112] Right, right.

[113] She just knew it was kind of weird and she got moved away.

[114] And it wasn't until she saw the videotape played back for her by the cops that she goes, I felt so bad for that girl on the tape.

[115] It was completely like it wasn't, it didn't happen to her.

[116] It's a lesson of like how PTSD and how adrenaline works and how, you know, what your brain does in a panic situation.

[117] And how people.

[118] react to trauma or tragedy or violent situations that are not the ones that happened to, but the ones that were there.

[119] It's almost like the witnesses, her version of the story.

[120] I shouldn't, none of this is like, you know, the, I'm not saying it as a fact.

[121] It was fascinating to hear someone's take on what that was like to be the subject of it when that is not how she felt and it would really bug her the way she was treated as this person that it happened to and that because the person who perpetrated the crime, they believed she had the person had schizophrenia.

[122] So she couldn't get answers.

[123] She was like, I just wanted to know what I did.

[124] And there is no answer.

[125] Caused it.

[126] There's no good explanation as to why that happened.

[127] It's right.

[128] I mean, yeah.

[129] It's an incredible.

[130] It's an incredible show.

[131] You guys should listen to it.

[132] And it's a great thing to be able to hear people discuss their, like you say, it's like, people getting to discuss the like, say, most painful or most difficult or worse thing that's happened to them, being able to tell you, they're a complete person, their whole, they didn't get, they didn't get smashed apart by it.

[133] They're completely there saying, and this is what I learned.

[134] There's one woman who talks about some, oh, it was her mom joined a cult.

[135] And she kept saying, I want to, I don't want to judge it.

[136] I want to understand it.

[137] I want to know because I know I didn't have the life she had or the experience she had, which like made me go like, whoa, like I take so much comfort in judging other people's actions.

[138] It makes me feel more grounded to judge when actually you never know the full story.

[139] And it's like a weird thing to do.

[140] Or what you would do in their situation.

[141] You can, you know, we can fucking talk about what we would do in someone else's, you know, shoes till the fucking cows come home but until you're really there you you have no idea because there's so many other things at play including your fucking you know uh fight flight or fight uh mode which actually pertains to this because and almost brings it would you find a segue in a weird favorite thing yes in a weird fucking circular thing so we we you and i together at the same time took uh social media off of our phones because we thought you're going to say we took some drug together.

[142] I was like, what?

[143] Oh, I didn't tell you.

[144] I put ketamine in your coffee.

[145] Shit.

[146] We took social media off our phones together because we both realized it was affecting us in a very negative way.

[147] Yes.

[148] And so I was talking to my therapist unrelated about fight, flight, or freeze.

[149] Freeze, yes.

[150] And so I was looking up though, you know, who am I?

[151] What do I do?

[152] And actually in, it said in the context of the freeze part, which I think I do, is mindling.

[153] scrolling to get yourself, you just can't move forward.

[154] And so you find something that's comforting, like taking a nap or scrolling.

[155] And so I think maybe we're so panicked and have so much anxiety about the world and what's going on today.

[156] Our fucking business life right now is, you know, for the past four years has been bananas.

[157] And so this mindless scrolling, this commenting, this getting, reading comments.

[158] And all of that is a really great way to avoid that, you know, avoid the stress that's actually happening that we just can't deal with right now well it's almost like you get to pick your own stress so it's a control issue because it's like it's like saying oh this is what I'm upset about I can handle this stress yeah yep yeah I can be mad at this person right blame yeah yeah totally also uh that reminds me because there's a similar thing um I was saying it was someone we know made a joke about me being a perfect a perfectionist and so I actually looked up what because I was like I am not nowhere near being perfect and then I looked it up and I have it so fucking bad like what because I always picture like a perfectionist is like Reese withers.

[159] Yeah they actually are perfect right right and that's not it at all.

[160] It's just it is a trying that makes it happen.

[161] it's the um it's it's unrealistic expectations and goals and then the procrastination part is the sideline yourself when you lose all faith and then it's like it's really fascinating it's it's it's so good i was i'm gonna send you it was i found an article in psychology today about it that had this really good illustration where it was like a person here um the goal set is a is a road that goes straight up and then it's like finish line straight up and there's someone on the side of the road looking at their phone on one side and on the other side of the road cutting the grass with scissors like perfectly trimming the grass.

[162] I'm a perfectionist, but that's not their goal at all.

[163] Oh, that makes total sense.

[164] There's all these things about it that I just was like, oh my God, that's what that's what it is.

[165] And then you just are always ruining your own good time with those kind of like, it'll never work.

[166] I'll never make it.

[167] I'll never be so.

[168] It's like comparing yourself to people.

[169] all the shit everyone does well you know what the fourth f is that my therapist just told me about it I had never heard of so you have fight flight freeze or fawn like fawning like telling someone how beautiful they look and being like oh my god you're like to make them like you that's the way like you the tiger's about to attack you and you're like you look amazing today you're such you're the fucking queen of the jungle and wow you look great and like that's the person's way to like make everyone like them so that they don't get attacked.

[170] Wow.

[171] I know, which I feel like I do.

[172] Well, and also in the culture I grew up in, that's how you know who to attack.

[173] Because that's clearly fake.

[174] And it doesn't fucking work for me. And it doesn't.

[175] It's disingenuous.

[176] It's like somebody going, just putting in the vote of I'm scared of you, which is like, great, I'll take care of that.

[177] Remember in one of our first.

[178] Which is perfectionistic of me to be, I can't accept compliment.

[179] I know you're lying.

[180] And in Hollywood at my old department during one of our first fucking couple months.

[181] And you sat down to like talk to me about a serious issue.

[182] And I was like, okay, yeah, totally.

[183] By the way, your hair looks amazing.

[184] And you were like, don't talk about my hair.

[185] This is serious.

[186] Like you specifically called me out on it.

[187] And I was like, whoa, I fucking totally do that.

[188] Or it's like, wait, let me, let me diffuse a situation real quick.

[189] Now you should like me. Go ahead.

[190] Yeah, which is so manipulative.

[191] It's so manipulative.

[192] But this was before, and look, this was before I understood your background where direct, like, we're going to sit down and face -to -face discuss a thing is your worst nightmare.

[193] And that is like, that's all I know.

[194] Yeah.

[195] Of like, no, no, no, we have to solve this right now.

[196] We're going to talk it out.

[197] We're going to put it on the table.

[198] And like, I was setting you up to be panicked.

[199] Like, that approach was your worst approach.

[200] And then it didn't work.

[201] It didn't.

[202] My diffusion didn't work.

[203] Oh, my God.

[204] We should write a book.

[205] No, because I was like, please don't diffuse.

[206] Well, I have to tell it's hard enough to be saying like whatever fucking stuff.

[207] A thing that I bet you if Stephen was able to go like, you know what it was about?

[208] We'd both start laughing because it's nothing.

[209] He has every argument on fucking on his computer.

[210] So many.

[211] Oh, Stephen.

[212] How many times he had to step out of the apartment?

[213] Not for the early days.

[214] That's what his book's going to be about.

[215] The first time I was asked to step out of the apartment and walk around George's neighborhood was...

[216] But I didn't stop with recording, so don't worry.

[217] What else do I had...

[218] Ayahuasca!

[219] Wait a second.

[220] Are you...

[221] In the ayahuasca category, are you fine throwing up in front of others?

[222] Because that's the thing that blows my mind.

[223] I'm a lifelong recovering bulimic.

[224] I can fucking do this.

[225] tell the cow like I can do it anywhere I have a yes I could do it anywhere I have no fucking issue with it it's okay some of my best friends have seen me vomit it's like just not a thing for like I know by the way get help for your eating disorders it's I'm making a joke of it but it's serious yes for sure no it's not good and also it can it actually can do serious damage especially to your heart oh to your sophagus and to everything it's not good so but I am I am an amy I have an amyble gag reflex.

[226] I'm, like, good at this thing.

[227] It sucks to be really good at something that you just can't actually use, you know?

[228] But there's upsides.

[229] Like, ayahuasca.

[230] I was being dirty.

[231] Oh, but...

[232] Oh, Drew in.

[233] Ew.

[234] Sorry.

[235] Mark it.

[236] Stephen, Market.

[237] No, leave it.

[238] I love it.

[239] Leave it.

[240] Stephen's taking his hat.

[241] He's like, I'm not fucking taking that out.

[242] Steven's like, what's happened to this show?

[243] What's happened to you of COVID -19?

[244] Ayahuasca.

[245] Oh, but I think I saw a good special about using ayahuasca to help treat PTSD for soldiers coming back from war and really having a hard time.

[246] And really they see a lot of real change with that.

[247] So I think that could be amazing.

[248] I think so too.

[249] And I, of course, do my research and take it very seriously.

[250] But I'm right.

[251] And there's 1 ,000 stand -up comedians who have slowly been transitioning into like us.

[252] ayahuasca shamanes because they're so into it.

[253] So I'm going to, me and Mark Maren, maybe we'll just take a fucking trip to the.

[254] Oh, that'd be nice.

[255] I know.

[256] He doesn't, he doesn't know me. So that would be weird.

[257] Well, that's how you get to know people.

[258] That's fucking right.

[259] Nothing like vomiting in front of someone to really get to know them.

[260] And then you're like, I'm sorry, it's great talking to you, but I can see the devil right now.

[261] So I have to go deal with that.

[262] And I'm going to have to go without Vince because he's not, he's not, I'm, I'm, I I'm more experimental than he is.

[263] And I heard that you see a snake, like a lot of people see a snake and he's terrified of snakes, like to a point that's incredible.

[264] Like a snake comes on TV for a second and he loses it.

[265] They're pretty bad.

[266] Yeah.

[267] I'm kind of on his side with snakes.

[268] I don't disagree.

[269] Let's see.

[270] So slimy.

[271] Oh, I wanted to talk about, let's see.

[272] I had a thing.

[273] Hold on a second.

[274] I mean, how are you doing, though, being off social media in general?

[275] you feel an improvement?

[276] I feel more focused.

[277] Yeah.

[278] The first couple days, I realized that every single thing that happens in my life and around the house and with the cats is me, is, my brain goes to, I should post that.

[279] This will be a good post.

[280] What do I post about this?

[281] That's all I think about.

[282] Yes.

[283] And the mindless scrolling, of course, you know, I'm still kind of doing it on other sites, like, you know, news sites, but it's, it's so sad every time I like, enter cnnn .com into my phone where i'm just like i just want to know what's going on but it's like this real kind of rickety grandpa version of getting the news yeah it's so hilarious it's like it feels like social media and it feels like an intricate knot that i'm tied up in that doesn't feel good i can't you know move well and i can't i can't thrive when i'm tied up that way but at the same time it's comforting and I've known it for so long and it's and it's been there for me in so many ways and is part of my like a self -esteem boost for me that I need but at this but I'm also looking for the negative stuff and it affects me in a way that is really negative and it's mind -blowing how how the positive stuff you use so easily take it for granted when people are telling you beautiful wonderful things and then the negative stuff can be just passing You can tell it's just someone trying to get attention and it'll like stick in your brain.

[284] Right.

[285] And that's the part that and it's not like I honestly don't experience that much of that.

[286] Yeah.

[287] Because I just immediately mute everyone.

[288] I literally, if somebody goes.

[289] Well, you're better at that.

[290] That's the thing.

[291] I just am like you.

[292] You just disqualified yourself.

[293] You disqualified yourself.

[294] So you don't get to talk to me if you're going to use that tone or like, honey.

[295] Like anything that starts like that, I'm like, sorry, I'm so much older.

[296] venue.

[297] Right.

[298] Goodbye.

[299] Well, there's just no way that I can do the work that I'm doing with my therapist, which is trying to get past old, like, bullying and, you know, self -esteem issues.

[300] If I keep reading comments, there's no way.

[301] I can't both work on those issues that I have and let people get to me that way, which, you know, at the same time, it just doesn't work.

[302] So I'm picking, I'm picking my own fucking psyche and working on that instead of social media.

[303] Good.

[304] Great.

[305] That's the, that's so much better.

[306] And then you go to, I have a can of wine at 2 .30 in the afternoon right now.

[307] But it's pandemic.

[308] What are you supposed to do?

[309] It's a pandemic.

[310] So I'm doing.

[311] I mean, we're doing this.

[312] You have to have some vices.

[313] We're doing this experiment of just being a little bit more off the grid in the middle of the most isolated time in our lives, which is very difficult.

[314] I mean, my thing is I realize is Twitter is a social thing for me that isn't real.

[315] Right.

[316] I keep going to it like oh I just want to connect to them people and it's like then text your friends don't you're like I want to stay in the loop it is a totally different thing for comedians though I'm like you know I do think so but it's but it is the you're so right about the dopamine hit of interaction which is good and fine if you can keep the brackets around it but if it then begins to spill in because someone decided to be kind of like you know bitchy or critical to you yeah it's like you don't know who that is the idea that you just immediately take their opinion straight to heart and be like this matters and now I'm going to feel bad about it is like it's a very sped up reaction and we don't know that that's what we're doing but that's what we're doing we're going whoever you are a random person you get a say and you get a say and you get a say in my life and how I feel about myself and it's like sorry let's not do that to ourselves let's keep that circle real small of people who get a say that's a great idea as my therapist told me it like in year one where she goes, how many, like, close friends would you say you have?

[317] And I'm like, I don't know, 30.

[318] And she goes, uh, uh, uh, uh, that's not a thing.

[319] That is, that's not true.

[320] And I was just like, ooh, you're right, four.

[321] Keep it close.

[322] Keep it tight.

[323] Well, your sister has agreed, your sister Laura has agreed to, and Stephen does this too, when there's a cute thing on Instagram that pertains to us, she's agreed to send it to me. I feel like we should give her my favorite murder Instagram password and just be like, post whatever you want anytime you want.

[324] Well, they're coming to visit.

[325] So maybe we'll make an arrangement.

[326] Oh, my God.

[327] What if Nora was our social media manager?

[328] Your 13 -year -old niece?

[329] She's so TikTok -based, though.

[330] That's the only thing.

[331] We need a fucking TikTok presence?

[332] Great.

[333] We need the youth injection.

[334] We're old people talking to young people.

[335] We need to be managed by even younger.

[336] people.

[337] I think there is like a, I don't know TikTok at all, but we've been tagged in a few things where like, the gal will say, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[338] I don't know.

[339] They play us saying stay sexy, don't get murdered and then mimic it.

[340] I don't know.

[341] Is that a TikTok?

[342] Yeah, that's a TikTok thing.

[343] Stephen's a laugh.

[344] I can see Stephen in Zoom and he's laughing at us.

[345] They lip sync.

[346] Stephen, do you have something to say about TikTok?

[347] I'm too old for TikTok.

[348] That's how what?

[349] Millennial Ray Morris is too old.

[350] The only thing, the only thing I follow on TikTok is the woman who does couponing.

[351] She's a murderino.

[352] She's a murdering in Nashville.

[353] And she does cat rescue stuff.

[354] But she also does shows like all the extreme coupons like CBS.

[355] Like you saved $400 today or like your thing is free.

[356] What's her name?

[357] I want to.

[358] Her name is Laura.

[359] Yes, Laura.

[360] But like it's just about the all the ways that you can like.

[361] And she donates a lot of the stuff that she gets on coupons to shelters.

[362] Like women shelters and things like that.

[363] She's doing great work.

[364] It's really fun.

[365] Okay.

[366] It's very satisfying.

[367] I love couponing, man. I love couponing, man. I love that.

[368] Laura Bell X, at Laura Bell X on TikTok, and that's Bell, B -E -L -L -E -X, Laura Bell X, Laura Bell X. Beautiful.

[369] Love it.

[370] There we are.

[371] Here we are.

[372] We got our TikTok in.

[373] Yeah, we'll have Nora walk us through it.

[374] You and Vince should come over.

[375] And we can sit outside.

[376] Have dinner on the patio.

[377] And then we'll set Nora.

[378] Is your dad coming?

[379] Can he make one of his well -done burgers for us?

[380] Yes.

[381] don't tell him i fucking said that well the problem is they're either completely done or you are eating red meat off of the styrofoam white thing i mean he's they're in the past he served burgers that were just like we everyone was pretending to eat them and then had to put them down afterwards like they were so raw it's like top show an episode of top chef it's insanity we're going to make something that's not that's like tacos where you just know exactly exactly what the cooking is but yeah we'll get that all figured out look i'm definitely not going to be off social media forever but i think it's so good at a time like this to to watch yourself and actually just be in the world like i had to as you know i dropped my i dropped my phone in the pool the other god listen to this you guys this is the most la thing you've ever fucking heard this is an asshole story and i do apologize j text me the other morning our our assistant so l .a was like hey i'm sure she told you but Karen dropped her phone in the pool so we have to cancel this meeting or whatever and I was like she fucking didn't tell me actually I was the second it happened I was like yay I don't have to do any calls for like days I was I in my mind I was like you just bought yourself a week of freedom and then I'm like what am I talking about it like I can do everything on my laptop I know what am I talking about so I left my house and went to uh the phone place that's not the iPhone store or the Apple store because they're all closed to my local phone place and a woman who worked there the I guess what would be Sherman Oaks AT &T store Cindy what's up you killed it you were the greatest okay this woman I loved her so much went in of course there's like dots everywhere of where you should stand everything now all those tables in those like phone stores have the plastic divider on them.

[382] I mean, all this stuff.

[383] It's so trippy.

[384] Dostopian as fuck.

[385] Yeah.

[386] It's crazy.

[387] And we're both wearing masks.

[388] And so she's, I'm like, I just need to replace this phone.

[389] What's the latest one?

[390] I'll have the one you're having.

[391] I thank God, I have insurance.

[392] Pools count.

[393] You know, whatever.

[394] So she's just doing it real fast, not asking me all those extra questions.

[395] She just knew we needed to both get out of there quickly.

[396] And so then I go over she goes back to get it I go over to like look for what my new phone case will be because of course it's a different size and it's all new everything and a woman comes in who's wearing a mask but walks straight in and starts telling everybody what to do and Cindy's like ma 'am you could you please stand over there you have we have we already have three customers in the store what she's telling them what to do like just like I need to pay my bill blah blah blah yeah but but Cindy's like oh you need to stand over here because we already have the maximum people in the store.

[397] And this woman, it was like she was waiting for her cue.

[398] Oh, did so, I'm sorry, did someone in this store die?

[399] Is that why you're being this dramatic?

[400] And she started going off and I looked, I looked at her.

[401] I was just like, I almost started yelling.

[402] I was like, you've got to be kidding me. This is total crap.

[403] And Cindy handled it beautifully.

[404] She was just like, ma 'am, I'm sorry.

[405] I understand your frustration.

[406] This is for the safety of others.

[407] She handled it.

[408] Like, the woman immediately.

[409] immediately realized there was going to be no attention God and there's going to be no no one was going to join her in her fight and she just went and stood she handled it so perfectly so you know how they usually say what a pity it is that she because you're wearing a mask didn't get the full effect of Karen's fuck you face but at the same time you were able to fucking give it with just your eye showing and eyebrows those eyebrows are pretty the eyebrows do it yeah they're plucked specifically for making people freeze in their tracks.

[410] But I had actually started yelling.

[411] When she started yelling, I immediately started yelling because that's what we do.

[412] Double yellow is the rest.

[413] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[414] Oh, are you yelling?

[415] I'm more mad immediately.

[416] They're like her hype man who's like, yeah, bitch.

[417] What?

[418] But I'm against her.

[419] I'm the anti -hite man. But I realized I was like, do not escalate this.

[420] Cindy's got it.

[421] You don't know, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

[422] When they sent me the thing of will you fill out a survey?

[423] And normally I completely ignore those, even if I've gotten great service.

[424] I filled out that survey and wrote, texted a paragraph this long about how well Cindy handled herself and this situation and completely diffused it.

[425] And if AT &T is going to have people in stores, they need to pay them more because they're doing more than the average job.

[426] Because now they have to manage and mitigate people who are anti -maskers coming in and screaming at everybody.

[427] And that's on them.

[428] and because I had a long conversation with Cindy about it where I was like she goes we would have like a weird thing happen in the store maybe once a week before she goes now it's five times a day and because but antagonizers but the reason she understood she goes it's easy for me to calm them down and to stay neutral because I know your phone is your lifeline and if you're in a place where the government hasn't sent you a check and you don't have anything and all of a sudden you can't make your payment and you're getting your phone cut off, then you're cut off.

[429] That's true.

[430] And so this is, all of a sudden, the people in these stores, this is, they're on the front line of people who are being affected by the mismanagement of this entire situation.

[431] Oh my God, Cindy.

[432] So I wrote to, I wrote to my, in my report, in my review, where I was like, please pay these people more because they're protecting your brand, so you need to protect them.

[433] I mean, I can't imagine what it's like right now for, it's horrible.

[434] Georgia 10 years ago.

[435] I would have been fucked.

[436] There's no moving home because there's no fucking home.

[437] There's no not paying rent.

[438] You'll get kicked out.

[439] And you're fucking your roommates over.

[440] You know, it's like I don't know what I would, I don't know what I would do if I were.

[441] Karen, Karen five years ago would have been literally pack up the dogs and move back to my dad's house because, and look, people are doing that.

[442] And there is no shame in collecting yourself in a situation like this.

[443] This is like unprecedented.

[444] insanity.

[445] If you have to, if you're lucky enough to have a family to go home to, just say thank you and do those dishes and feel not one ounce of shame because this is crazy.

[446] This is unprecedented and it's also we're, it's also unmanaged.

[447] This is beyond.

[448] Yeah.

[449] But that Cindy's of the world, please think when you're out and about and you're going to places that have reopened, please be ultra careful, concerned, polite and defensive of.

[450] the people who are now also essential workers but they're working at you know at a phone store like please please be protective and careful and know that those people are being deeply affected by the stresses of others and the people who can't manage themselves yeah and all the sudden you're like I'm just here working trying to sell iPhones and suddenly I have to I'm a crisis manager dude Cindy we love you Cindy props to Cindy Fuck all right It's been 36 minutes Should we start talking about the puck God damn And we haven't even gone to exactly right news yet Oh my God literally when I sat down I was like I have nothing Me too I actually wrote two things down that I could talk about And we haven't talked about them That's like What you got?

[451] What you got?

[452] Well I had the beautiful an amazing actor Dan Levy he posted this Instagram recently that I saw before I took Instagram off Wait, can I say?

[453] Is it about taking that class?

[454] Yes!

[455] Oh, I love him so much.

[456] He is, there's a free course being offered through the University of Alberta called Indigenous Canada.

[457] It's a 12 lesson course that explores indigenous histories and contemporary issues from an indigenous perspective.

[458] And he is not only, it starts this week, the um it's like 12 courses it he'll be doing hosting a weekly discussion with the professors um for 12 weeks and they're all going to learn together i have it pulled up right here it's it looks awesome it's it's so brilliant yeah i love that dan levy's getting involved he's incredible well because also it's like what are you doing with your time like uh you know how many times can i rewatch the same show that i already like and when i saw that that was before i left twitter i saw that i was like that genius bastard he's done it again because it's like learn about something you should know right that very few of our educations provided for us in a meaningful way and the other thing was that the anchorage daily news i saw this on reddit they on the cover of their newspaper um it's a it's a huge blank newspaper page with a tiny little paragraph at the bottom that says over the past month we We've presented the stories of women and men choosing to speak out about their experiences with sexual violence in Alaska.

[459] Talking about rape and sexual assault is difficult.

[460] Many survivors may not be in a position to do so right now.

[461] This space, which is the blank space, is dedicated to those not ready to share.

[462] We're leaving this open for you.

[463] Oh, my God.

[464] So you can write, and you know how important it is to even write a letter that you don't send.

[465] They left the entire front page open for, for survivors of sexual assault to write their experience and just keep it.

[466] Beautiful.

[467] I know.

[468] Chills.

[469] Brilliant.

[470] Who is that editor -in -chief?

[471] High -five.

[472] Anchorage.

[473] The Anchorage, what is the newspaper called?

[474] Anchorage Daily News.

[475] Wow.

[476] Congratulations.

[477] What a beautiful gesture.

[478] I know.

[479] All right.

[480] That was what I had.

[481] Oh, and then we have, we have, we're going to make some face masks.

[482] You guys, we made face masks.

[483] You guys.

[484] Guys, we made face masks.

[485] They say stay sexy and don't get, no. just say, stay sexy.

[486] They stay sexy, and then they have the My Favorite Murder logo on them.

[487] So you can, everyone you walk by, you're going to be giving them a message.

[488] If you buy one, all proceeds are going to go to Feedingamerica .org.

[489] That's right.

[490] And so Feeding America, their mission statement is our mission is to feed America's hungry through a nationwide network of member food banks and engage our country in the fight to end hunger.

[491] So it's pretty cool.

[492] It's been around since 1979.

[493] We're really into it.

[494] So any face mask you buy from us at my favorite murder .com in the store, all the proceeds are going to go to them to feeding America.

[495] That's right.

[496] Which is super important right now as we were just talking about.

[497] This is very intense, very difficult time for so many people.

[498] And this is just one way.

[499] We all have like, you know, I have about four different masks.

[500] One was one my sister bought for me. One.

[501] I got a package of like the disposable ones.

[502] But so, you know, you can have one for your car.

[503] You can have one for your house.

[504] answering the front door or whatever our house is littered with masks it's really ridiculous Vince keeps buying like different you know he wants to support the businesses he likes so he keeps buying masks from different places and then we have the big thing of the disposable ones and it's just you know love it love it the coolest yeah yeah so get in there and so you can protect yourself and support a very good cause and help help out hungry people in America.

[505] And then real quick, do you want to do exactly right corner?

[506] Yes.

[507] Some good this week.

[508] So good.

[509] So Monday Murder Squad covered the case of the Taco Bell Strangler, who's named Henry Lewis Wallace.

[510] He targeted black women in Charlotte, North Carolina in the 90s, but he's only confessed to the murders that he, everyone knew he was tied to.

[511] So Billy and Paul explore how many other potential victims he could possibly have.

[512] I've never even, that's, I've never heard of, I've never heard of that person.

[513] And on bananas, okay, when we were told that this was going to be a guest on bananas, and you know how good Scotty and Kurt are with guests.

[514] This one fucking tops them all.

[515] Aaron Brockovich.

[516] Hi.

[517] Oh, my God.

[518] Legend.

[519] Let's all watch that tonight.

[520] What, the movie?

[521] The movie, Aaron Brockovich.

[522] Absolutely.

[523] Such a good movie.

[524] But she's an incredible advocate.

[525] So she is on bananas this week.

[526] Please tune in.

[527] Yeah.

[528] And then the fall line is releasing this week.

[529] They release part one of their new two -part series called Identity After Death, which sounds so cool.

[530] They have a UNH lecture and forensic anthropologist named Dr. Amy Michael, who's talking about common misconceptions, the state of forensic science, how cold cases might be solved.

[531] Like, this is a person who's in it and studying it and on the cutting edge.

[532] So I can't wait to listen to that.

[533] Sounds so good.

[534] It's so rad.

[535] Great stuff.

[536] Happening.

[537] It's all crappening.

[538] Is that everything?

[539] 45 minutes in?

[540] No. Sorry, there is one more thing.

[541] So last week, because the TV show, God damn it.

[542] The TV show.

[543] Oh, yeah.

[544] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[545] Okay, so we talked a little bit about the new HBO series Lovecraft Country premiered.

[546] And we talked about how much we loved it.

[547] God, it's so good.

[548] So, and that's a, uh, Jordan Peel, uh, is one of the producers on it.

[549] Oh, why am I not surprised?

[550] That's amazing.

[551] Yeah.

[552] So, um, so we got this email and it says, Hey, crew, I was so excited and moved to tears to hear you both bring up Lovecraft Country this week.

[553] I'm one of the set decoration buyers on the show and the entire crew put so much love, sweat, and tears into it.

[554] And it's just nice to say our hard work being recognized.

[555] I, I, I think my parents sometimes imagine I'm still painting flats for a high school play.

[556] As I was spending hours in my van traveling around Georgia to find period correct pieces, parentheses.

[557] This part, this is my favorite thing in the world.

[558] Okay, say it.

[559] She goes, and I mean it, there's not even a single book on any set that was published after 1954.

[560] Fuck, that damn.

[561] Rad.

[562] Can that be, that's my, like, that's my, if you weren't doing what you're doing now, what would you want to do?

[563] That's my dream job.

[564] right it's the coolest um uh and y 'all were keeping me company so as she was doing this doing these buying she was listening to us which is such a great compliment um every monday and thursday several of us would get distracted um talking about this week's episode in my office you could find various sSDgm you're in a cult call your dad and other mfm merch uh i even have a few people on our crew who remembered the casket with the quote suspicious substance for maldehyde that was in a minisode that came out while we were filming.

[565] That was, that one was not on our show.

[566] I promised to never buy a used casket for work no matter what the discount is.

[567] Anyway, I just wanted to say on behalf of the Lovecraft crew, or at the very least, the set decorating department, that we are happy to be friends of the fam.

[568] Stay sexy and stay away from racist and shogoths, Natasha.

[569] Amazing.

[570] Yeah.

[571] I love it.

[572] I love it.

[573] I was so, so excited.

[574] We were so excited.

[575] So thank you.

[576] Natasha, I'm assuming she pronounces it, Natasha.

[577] But it's N -O -T -O -S -H -A.

[578] Yeah.

[579] Just a different spelling.

[580] Please say hi to everybody.

[581] Yeah.

[582] And way to go.

[583] Yeah.

[584] Super congratulations.

[585] What a beautifully, beautifully made show.

[586] Love it.

[587] But also so fucking creepy.

[588] Like the first when, it's all spoilers.

[589] It's hard to talk about it.

[590] I haven't seen the new episode.

[591] I don't, don't spoil.

[592] Okay.

[593] Yeah.

[594] We'll watch it and watch the other one and then we'll talk about it next week.

[595] And really quick, just for the comedy side, if you're looking for something to watch, I finally, I had been saving it because when it first came out, I didn't watch it, even though I love Rob Delaney.

[596] And I love him.

[597] He's truly the funniest.

[598] He's the king of Twitter, but he's also an amazing actor and amazing comedian.

[599] So kind too.

[600] He fucking, I knew him for a little while when he lived here.

[601] He remembers my name when he, like, didn't have to.

[602] You know what I mean?

[603] Like, I was not important.

[604] to your life in any way.

[605] But he'd have him be like, hi, Georgia and Vince.

[606] He was just so nice.

[607] Yes, he knows his, he knows his stuff.

[608] He's good.

[609] So he made a show with Sharon Hogan, he's an amazing Irish actress and comedian called Catastrophe.

[610] So good.

[611] There's, I believe, three seasons of it.

[612] And it is so fucking funny and so brilliant to people that get together and start a family.

[613] And that's all you need to know.

[614] The jokes are superb.

[615] The people are so real.

[616] I love it so much.

[617] And I, it's, I always feel bad when you, I don't watch things the second they come out.

[618] But oftentimes I resist because there's always this first wave of like opinion.

[619] And I want to like get away from that and then have my own opinion.

[620] Right.

[621] And be separate.

[622] So you just watched it and you love it?

[623] I just watched it literally for like 72 hours.

[624] I did not stop watching it because I loved it so much.

[625] You know what?

[626] That reminds me. did you watch the nexium cult documentary yes episode one what's it called the vow the vow on HBO and so good it made me think of this because I thought to myself it's on HBO so it's episodic every week and I am just like I was mad that I couldn't binge watch it yes we can we not do that anymore all I want to do is fucking sit there for a weekend and binge the show yes and mean, and while you're at it, if I'm binging a show, you don't need to put up a thing that asked me if I'm still watching it.

[627] Stop judging me for laying on the couch for nine hours.

[628] Are you still?

[629] The still is in a towelics.

[630] Are you Karen?

[631] And then a little pig face.

[632] Yeah.

[633] The vow is really good.

[634] I am fucking excited about it.

[635] The way it is setting it up for a second.

[636] I was kind of like, this feels a little bit pro nexium to me. What's going on?

[637] Yeah.

[638] But it's like there are a establishing its good documentary filmmaking.

[639] They're establishing what was good about it.

[640] And why these people got pulled in and you can totally understand.

[641] Yes.

[642] The positivity and the, it's so, I love that.

[643] It's like a learning process where I was like sitting there going, I don't like this.

[644] They're basically, and then I went, oh, yeah.

[645] That's the whole idea of a cult is you don't see a cult and go, this is a bunch of bullshit.

[646] You like the girl who was talking about realizing she's in a cult at the show.

[647] Of course, it's welcoming.

[648] It makes you feel good.

[649] It's hitting all of those.

[650] You feel like you have a bigger purpose, which, yeah.

[651] Sorry, isn't a real, like doesn't happen in real life unless you have kids, maybe.

[652] I think if you have kids and you, that's a, that's the cult.

[653] Not according to catastrophe.

[654] No, but I mean, it's, it's such a good, this is the way we learn about cult so that we can learn to stay away from them.

[655] Or to recognize when something switches from being super helpful.

[656] helpful and beneficial to literally controlling your life.

[657] Yeah.

[658] Thank God there's a lot of good TV out right now in these times.

[659] All right.

[660] Are you ready to make some media that will also entertain people?

[661] Well, we're 49 and 50 something seconds in.

[662] So I feel like now is the time.

[663] It's time.

[664] Just tell me like a four minute story.

[665] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[666] Absolutely.

[667] Absolutely.

[668] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[669] Exactly.

[670] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[671] But did you know that they also power in -person sales?

[672] That's right.

[673] Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in -store, on social media, and beyond.

[674] Give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[675] From accepting payments to managing inventory, they have everything you need to sell in -person.

[676] So give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[677] Their sleek, reliable POS hardware takes every major payment method and looks fabulous at the same time.

[678] With Shopify, we have a powerful partner for managing our sales, and if you're a business owner, you can too.

[679] Connect with customers in line and online.

[680] Do retail right with Shopify.

[681] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[682] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[683] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level.

[684] today.

[685] That's shopify .com slash murder.

[686] Goodbye.

[687] Steven, who's first?

[688] Karen, you're first.

[689] Is it me?

[690] Oh, because the last week.

[691] The quilt episode.

[692] Oh, right.

[693] Georgia did the dungeon in the Carolina in Charleston.

[694] And Karen, you did the Stoll Cemetery.

[695] The right.

[696] Okay.

[697] Okay.

[698] So, Georgia, the story I'm going to do for you this week, read to you, is the story of Delaware's Patty Cannon, the wickedest woman in America.

[699] Ooh, don't know it.

[700] Okay, this was suggested by Anna H. She sent this suggestion into the MFM Gmail inbox.

[701] Thank you, Anna H. I'd never heard of her, of course.

[702] What she was, she basically ran the reverse underground railroad.

[703] She was an escaped slave catcher in the 1800s.

[704] There's so much of this stuff as I was looking it up and reading it that, of course, I've never heard of any of it historic as fuck they don't teach they don't teach it in the fucking they don't teach it and they don't teach uh slave patrols uh slave traitors all of it it's it's such an ugly time and it has to be discussed this should not be the only thing you know about it so please this is this is basically an overview there's plenty to read about this and to look into yourself.

[705] Okay.

[706] So I got this information.

[707] There's a Ranker article that was written by a writer name Amanda Sedlack, Hevener, and all that's interesting article that was written by Emily Stringer, and articles from, of course, Wikipedia, newspapers .com, and the Dover Post.

[708] Just as a quick overview, as most of us know, and this, the only thing I've ever heard of is that the Underground Railroad itself, the original, which was the secret network of safe houses, hiding places, and travel routes that led escaped slaves out of slave -owning states and to free states and up to Canada.

[709] So, of course, it is an incredibly secretive system.

[710] So there's not much about when it was established or who did it first or anything like that, because that was all very secret.

[711] But what we do know is that it was set up by freemen who had been escaped slaves themselves, black and white abolitionists at the time.

[712] Many of them, many of whom were Quakers.

[713] So the Quaker religion is very active.

[714] They're very active in in helping slaves escape.

[715] Also, members of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, which was established in 1816, that they did tons of work on the Underground Railroad.

[716] And it basically just provided, it was, it was very loose.

[717] Some of the, some of the networks, some of the spots in the network knew about each other, but it was very loosely organized.

[718] It wasn't like, oh, if you make it to this place, you know exactly you'll go to that place.

[719] It wasn't set up like that it.

[720] The more you know, it's the same thing with like, you know, fucking Jewish people in Germany during World War II.

[721] The more everyone knows about it, the more you can tell the authorities when you get caught.

[722] So it's better to not know.

[723] Exactly.

[724] Exactly.

[725] You had to keep it small.

[726] You had to keep it very, very secretive.

[727] And especially at this period of time, which would be like mid -17, late 1700s into the 1800s, because America was founded and established with slavery simultaneously.

[728] So the slave codes that came to America, they came with the slave owners in America.

[729] They were just, it was just kind of, there weren't the laws that were enacted.

[730] It was kind of like what had been established in either France or Spain or England.

[731] And there weren't any laws set up in any meaningful way.

[732] Essentially, across the board, a slave owner was legally allowed to beat, to rape, or in some cases to kill his property, quote unquote, these human beings at will.

[733] And so essentially, there are human beings that were bought into servitude and then treated so poorly, obviously, backbreaking work inhumane living conditions I mean so escaping to the northern free states was obviously huge and they had the slave owners made it a very very scary thing to try to do right and so an example of whoever tried it and got caught exactly and get these slave patrols people that would just go out at night hired for money to try to catch people who are trying to escape slavery so there's it I read this article a couple months ago and it had this quote in it that I remembered and it was from there's a black composer named George Walker who was the first black composer to win a Pulitzer for music he wanted in 1996 oh my god yeah and he he's he died um in 2018 but he was the grandson of a slave and when he his grandmother of course never talked about it and when he finally had the courage to ask her, what was it like?

[734] The only thing she said to him was, they did everything except Edda's.

[735] Uh -huh.

[736] So, okay, so I'm just giving you the overview of the setup.

[737] Definitely look into all of that.

[738] Slave patrols, all of that.

[739] It's so creepy, horrifying.

[740] And it basically was the birth of what is happening in this country right now in about 1820.

[741] There's a woman by the name of Patty Cannon, and she tends bar at her tavern in Johnson's Crossroad, which is in a town in Delaware that's situated right on the Delaware -Maryland border.

[742] And so it sits right on the Mason -Dixon line.

[743] So slave traders would often stop at Patty's tavern as they were traveling to and from the slave states and the freed states.

[744] Yeah.

[745] So tonight, Patty waits on a slave trader who makes the terrible mistake of.

[746] flashing a huge wad of cash that he has.

[747] And so she invites him to have dinner in her nearby home.

[748] And he says yes, they have dinner with her son -in -law Joe Johnson and Joe's brother Ebenezer.

[749] If you yeah, if you just want a creepy white guy name.

[750] Eb.

[751] What's up?

[752] Ebenezer.

[753] So the slave trader seated at the dining room table and Patty excuses herself to go outside to hoe her flowers she says that's the excuse she uses and from the garden which sits right below the dining room window Patty has a clear sight of this slave trader's back pulls out a gun shoots him from behind and kills him takes his money obviously then Patty Joe and Ebenezer hack his body into pieces wrap him in the bloody table cloth stuff him into a blue chest three feet wide and bury him out behind her house.

[754] And this is standard fair for Patty Cannon.

[755] This is life at her tavern.

[756] Okay.

[757] So she was born, Martha Patricia Hanley.

[758] There's, some people say her first name was Lucretia, but they think that that's just a rumor that stemmed from Lucretia Borgia, who is the Italian noble woman who was famous for poisoning people.

[759] Oh, yeah.

[760] So they think that just, that just kind of got tacked on to her.

[761] But records of her early life aren't exactly.

[762] she was believed to be born in 1760 in Montreal.

[763] Her father was a British nobleman turned bad boy who defied his parents and married a barmaid.

[764] So her father's parents disowned him and they fled to Montreal.

[765] They have Patty and three other daughters.

[766] And so Patty's father supports the family by smuggling and other crimes.

[767] So she's basically born into a life of crime.

[768] It's very common for her.

[769] basically her father gets into a fight with someone who threatens to turn him into the local police so he kills the snitch with an axe he's caught in the act he's arrested and he's hanged for murder so Patty's mom is left to support the family on her own so she forces Patty and her sister into sex work as well and then she tries to marry her daughter's off so she doesn't have to take care of them anymore so around 1776 when she's 16 years old Patty married a man named Jesse Cannon, visiting Montreal from Delaware, where he is a farmer.

[770] So she ends up, she marries him and moves back to Delaware with him.

[771] And they moved to a town called Johnson's Crossroads, which is now Resilience, Delaware, which is right on the Delaware, Maryland border.

[772] So Johnson's Crossroads sits in the Delmarva Peninsula.

[773] So that's right along the border.

[774] There are three separate counties, Caroline, Dorchester, and Sussex, and they all meet together, right in this one spot.

[775] So Patty and Jessie have two kids, Jesse Jr., and a girl named Mary.

[776] So she works as a barmaid while Jesse farms, and eventually she wants more money.

[777] So she tries to add sex work back into her rotation.

[778] But she even, like her idea is she'll start, be a sex worker again and then eventually become a madam and run her own brothel.

[779] Okay.

[780] But she's such an unpleasant person.

[781] She has such a shit personality.

[782] that most of her potential Johns find her attitude off -putting.

[783] Oh, God.

[784] They're like, later days.

[785] They're like, could you lower your voice?

[786] Oh, my God.

[787] So the brothel idea never pans out because she just isn't very nice.

[788] This was the description of Patty Cannon from the Dover Post, quote, descriptions of canon all written many years after her death, painter as a rather fearsome person.

[789] She was, quote, massive of, bosom massive elsewhere.

[790] According to 1907 newspaper article, an Amazonian Paul Bunyan, who personally hogtied some of her kidnapped victims.

[791] She was, and then it says, she was more or less robust, had a wealth of black hair, and her face while showing the effects of her evil passions and dissipations was more or less good to look upon.

[792] She was a haughty, but our attitude was poor.

[793] So sorry, no sex work for you.

[794] Instead, she leans on her bartending skills and opens a tavern around 1784 when she's 24 years old her own tavern so that she basically instead of the brothel she just has her own bar which is like middle age back then essentially really she was she was scheduled to die within 10 years okay so soon after she opens this tavern her husband jesse canon senior dies under mysterious circumstances so patty's left a fend for herself and her kids.

[795] So sometime in the early 1800s, her daughter Mary Cannon, marries a man named Henry Breraton.

[796] Henry is a blacksmith, but he's gotten into the illegal slave trading game.

[797] So what happened was basically in they passed a law in 1807, which came into effect on January 1st of 1808, that was the act prohibiting importation of slaves.

[798] So essentially they made it illegal to import any more slaves into America and it's supposed to limit the slave population and end international slave trading but what happens is because slavery is still legally in the United States it then leads to a rise in the underground slave trading illegal slave trading market and that they call that the reversed underground railroad so basically now plantation owners are willing to pay more for slaves so making basically that when if slaves ran away it wasn't you couldn't just go buy more right so they would pay people to go find them bring them back they uh or just by an illegally yeah it's such a sensitive thing to talk about we're talking about people it's so crazy yeah um so what ends up happening is with the illegal slave trade these illegal slave traders go to free states and kids and kids kidnap free black people off of the street.

[799] Fuck, man. Whether they were ex -slaves, whether they were born free in those free states, whatever, they're kidnapping and getting them to boats and shipping them back down to the slave states.

[800] Super dark, really creepy.

[801] So essentially, in 1811, Henry teens up with the cannons to kidnap free black people and sell them back into the slave trade.

[802] So Henry, Patty, and other accomplices, they would get other people to help them out.

[803] they join Joseph Griffith and develop a system.

[804] So the guys find accomplices.

[805] They troll the waterfronts in a fairy looking for free black men, women, and especially children.

[806] Oh, dude.

[807] And then they kidnapped them through force or through trickery.

[808] Oftentimes they would promise them, work, basically kidnap them and hide them.

[809] Patty had built in the attic of her tavern.

[810] She built this horrible jail.

[811] so she could keep people there she abused them she tortured them they were horrible conditions and essentially they would they would stay up there while she was making arrangements with these slave traders so she was making money they would make the exchange and then send the victims back down south so one way they would do this when they would end up tricking black people is Patty owned a slave herself who's just a boy named Cyrus James she bought him when he was seven years old so she would make and her gang would force Cyrus to trick people into boarding their ferry by saying oh do you are you looking for work here come with me I'm going to take you to a place so of course they would trust a child a black child when they weren't kidnapping free black people patty and her gang are also making counterfeit money and they're also robbing the tavern patrons the rich tavern patrons.

[812] So they were just, they were just basically, or an organized crime syndicate all at this tavern.

[813] So in 1811, Henry gets caught during an attempted capture in Georgetown, Delaware.

[814] He's given a prison sentence for his crimes, but within a year he escapes.

[815] He gets back to Patty's tavern.

[816] And there he, Patty, and Joseph Griffith pick up right back where they left off.

[817] And then one day in the spring of 1813, they devise a plan to rob a slave trader who frequents the tavern named Ridgel.

[818] They get him drunk.

[819] And then as he's leaving for the night, they ambush his carriage and they rob him.

[820] But he fights back.

[821] And in the midst of that fight, Ridgel gets shot and killed.

[822] So Henry and Joseph are captured and found guilty of Ridgel's murder and their sentenced to death.

[823] And at noon on April 13th, 1813, they're both hanged.

[824] So now Patty's in charge and it does not slow her down one bit because right after the new widow, Mary, her daughter Mary, immediately marries another legal slave trader named Joe Johnson.

[825] Joe partners up with Patty to continue this same slave trading enterprise that she'd built with Henry and Joe's an even better partner.

[826] They recruit as many as 50 to 60 other people to help them and they become known in the area as the Canon Johnson gang.

[827] And we will never know the exact numbers because there was a book written after her death that they think she had a hand in writing.

[828] Yeah.

[829] So they're not sure if the numbers are correct because, but they think she killed around 30 people and sold thousands of black people back into slavery or into slavery for the first time, men, women, and children.

[830] It's really sad there are these stories because this became so common.

[831] There were posters on the streets of Boston warning black people to be careful not to talk to police, not to interact with police, and not to believe anyone offering them a job off the street.

[832] Which, like, you'll get in trouble for immediately if you don't talk to police and don't interact with police if they interact with you.

[833] Right.

[834] But it's almost just like, it's that steer clear thing.

[835] It reminds me of that that scene in love country where they're just trying to stop for lunch.

[836] Right.

[837] And they suddenly realized the cafe they're in isn't the safe place that they got in the Green Book.

[838] It's that place has been burned down and they are in a sundown town.

[839] Yeah.

[840] It's so scared.

[841] Oh, sorry.

[842] Spoiler alert.

[843] But it's the same thing where there's just traps everywhere.

[844] It's again, that thing we talk about about black people culturally have not been safe ever.

[845] Right.

[846] They just don't, they can't, they can't feel safe.

[847] Yeah.

[848] It's it's not right.

[849] So law enforcement, of course, looks the other way.

[850] They, they, know what they're doing, but a lot of white people make money off of doing this.

[851] So this illegal, the illegal aspect of this slave trading, no one's coming out and going, this is wrong, and you can't do it at all.

[852] But the crimes, the Canaan Johnson gang, they start committing all these crimes against white people.

[853] And of course, that's what gets the authority's attention.

[854] So they start hanging out at the tavern, paying more attention to what Patty and her people are doing.

[855] But she lives so close to the state line that any time she catches wind that the cops are going to come and, like, take a look around.

[856] She just hops the border.

[857] And so she's out of the area and they can't do anything about it.

[858] In 1822, a few members of the Cannon Johnson gang are finally caught, one being Joe Johnson.

[859] And he's the only one that's brought to trial for kidnapping because he was basically the leader found guilty.

[860] And his punishment is to be placed in the stocks and given 39 lashes.

[861] So he takes his punishment And then him and his brother Ebenezer take off for the south Patty once again She's dodged a bullet But that changes in 1829 When a tenant farmer working her land Stumbles upon something interesting beneath the dirt A three foot wide blue chest The farmer opens it and inside are the remains Of the slave trader that Patty killed with Joe and Ebenezer back in 1820 so the farmer reports this finding to the local law enforcement they go to find patty but before they can find her they they wind up catching cyrus james in delaware who is patty's young boy slave so he's also wanted for his part in this illegal slave trading operation which is of course bullshit because he's a slave he's being forced to work with them um but the good thing is when the police questioned him he just spills the beans and tells them everything he confesses to seeing patty joe and ebenezer kill the slave trader and bury him in the blue chest he tells them about all the horrors he's seen in the tavern about the attic jail about how joe would johnson would whip the black captives um who would say they're free they're not they're not escaped slaves they were born free um he even says there are at least three other bodies of victims patty killed and buried on her land he leads authorities to the locations, and sure enough, when they dig there, they find three more bodies, a young boy who had been killed on June 1st, 1824, when Patty hit him in the head with a wooden board, and two other children who were both killed on April 26, 1822.

[862] Oh, my God.

[863] So with the help of Cyrus James' testimony, law enforcement has all they need to arrest Patty.

[864] And in April of 1829, she's caught and charged with four.

[865] counts of murder she's found guilty and sentenced to death by hanging but on May 11th 1829 Patty's guilty conscience gets the best of her she calls for a minister and she confesses that she's personally killed 11 people including her husband Jesse Cannon who she poisoned as well as one of her own babies who she strangled when they were three days old No. So, yeah, she was a fucking monster.

[866] Dude.

[867] Yeah.

[868] And I think that's probably where the Lucretia Borgia thing came in because she poisoned her first husband.

[869] The same afternoon, Paddy's found dead in her cell at age 70.

[870] She had secretly smuggled arsenic into her cell and used it to poison herself three weeks before her scheduled hanging.

[871] So Patty's body is buried outside the Sussex County Courthouse in Delaware, but her remains are moved in 1907, when the area is exhumed for the development of a parking lot.

[872] So they end up burying her in a potter's field near a local jail except for the skull.

[873] Somebody saw one of the courthouse employees who was there during the exhumation saw Patty's skull that was separated from the rest of her remains and took it and kept it.

[874] No, no, no. They kept that in their family until 1961 when someone finally donated it to the Dover.

[875] library.

[876] So that skull has since been donated to the Smithsonian in Washington, D .C. on long -term loan.

[877] And in 2010, Dr. Douglas Owsley, the chief of the division of physical anthropology at the Smithsonian, announced his plans to conduct a forensic examination of the skull and saying he wished to preserve it as a part of a larger study of life in the Chesapeake from colonial times to the 19th century.

[878] And that is the story of Paddy Cannon and the reverse underground railroad.

[879] Fuck, dude.

[880] That was a whirlwind.

[881] I mean, it's not enough.

[882] There's so much.

[883] It's, you know, we'll talk more about all this stuff.

[884] But the idea that, you know, this, talk about a serial killer.

[885] Talk about an evil, evil person that we should know about.

[886] Yeah.

[887] I think.

[888] That whole idea of people who made money catching escape slaves.

[889] Yeah.

[890] It's Dr. Mangala.

[891] It's fucking...

[892] It's just people who are using the excuse of the times to do their fucking evil bidding and getting away with it.

[893] Wow.

[894] That's fucking evil.

[895] That's evil and horrible.

[896] It's fascinating because this stuff went on for so long.

[897] She's not the only...

[898] It's not like this is a rare, you know, moment.

[899] in history this is she's yeah she's the anti harriet tubman but what's cool is in in reading up on all this stuff they're the coolest thing about harriet tubbin that i don't think i understood because basically the underground railroad went until obviously the civil war um you know through that and then harriet tubman they the the um union army hired her to be a spy because she knew all these routes down secret routes and places down to the South.

[900] And so they basically would use her to go in and she would dress up as an old woman and no one paid attention to her.

[901] And then she would go get intel and information to bring back to the generals.

[902] That's my favorite.

[903] I mean, everything else is incredible and amazing.

[904] And her bravery and the fact that she went into slave states upwards of 30 times to a free escaping slaves.

[905] Then she worked for the.

[906] for the for the army too to during the civil war that's bananas that was incredible great fucking job and weirdly mine is like a my story this week is like and later 50 years later yeah okay good okay i love it and here's a here's a unsolved murder i hadn't heard about ever that we should know more about and we should know more about the woman um this is the murder of civil rights activist Alberta Jones.

[907] So I got information from this from, there's a great New York Times article by Trip Gabriel, Blackpass .org article, a face -to -face Africa article, black then .com article by Jay Jones, W .H .A .S. 11 article by Derek Rose and Lena Duncan, Washington Post article by Danine L. Brown.

[908] And just, yeah, it's just coming to light about.

[909] about this incredible woman.

[910] So Alberta Odell Jones is born on November 12th, 1930 to Sarah Francis Crawford and Odell Jones, which let's bring back the name O'Dell.

[911] Odell's pretty good.

[912] In Louisville, Kentucky.

[913] So Alberta attends Louisville Central High School and then Louisville Municipal College, which was a school for black students only, but it merges at that time with the University of Louisville during desegregation.

[914] So she graduates, and this is a black woman in the 1950s, she graduates third in her class and gets her bachelor's degree from the University of Louisville, also at the top of her class.

[915] Basically, she's really smart, really driven.

[916] And in 1956, she's the first black person to attend the University of Louisville Law School.

[917] She transfers during her second year to Howard University School of Law in Washington, D .C., which is the oldest historically black university law law school.

[918] in the United States.

[919] And she graduates fourth in her class.

[920] Nice.

[921] Yeah.

[922] And she's killing she's killing it.

[923] She's killing it.

[924] Yeah.

[925] In 1959, she becomes one of the first black women to pass the Kentucky bar.

[926] And so she's taking the bar exam and a newspaper photographer shows up to take photos of her because it's historic.

[927] And she says to the journalist at the time, quote, if I had known how much was depending on me, because she didn't even know about that she was one of the first black women to even take the Kentucky bar.

[928] She said, I would have studied harder.

[929] And she said, and I would have worn something different.

[930] For real.

[931] She's like, I wouldn't have been dressed up and made sure, like, no pressure, but you better pass this.

[932] Yeah, really.

[933] So she was also like, she was a great speaker.

[934] She was really funny and, you know, charming and caring.

[935] After passing the bar, she returns to Kentucky and opens a law office with partners in downtown Louisville.

[936] And over the next couple years, Alberta Jones, is profiled in the Courier Journal several times for her work and accomplishments and is described as cheerful and outgoing with a great sense of humor.

[937] And there's this photo that kind of goes along with all of her articles and she's just this like darling, bright, lovely person with a big smile, you know, it's...

[938] And a bigger brain.

[939] And a ginormous brain.

[940] I think about the Guy Brannum, who I know who has passed the bar and how small.

[941] smart he is and how much it takes to pass the bar because all of law study is memorization of specific detailed I don't know how people do it it's such an accomplishment with the adversity of being a a woman which what did not happen back then to begin with and then be a black woman which was also so challenging yes and she and she did it at the top of her class top of her class you know straight a but yeah there's Yeah.

[942] Incredible.

[943] Right.

[944] So she's a member of several distinguished groups, the Fall City Bar Association, the Louisville Bar Association, the American Bar Association.

[945] And she's a member of the Zeta 5 Beta sorority, which is the third largest predominantly African American sorority.

[946] And their focus is on addressing social causes.

[947] So social causes are really big for Alberta Jones.

[948] This is the focus of her career.

[949] She loves speaking to groups of younger women to try to get them to also go into.

[950] to law, you know, she's just, she's a powerful person who could have, who achieved so much in her short life and could have achieved so much more.

[951] Well, that alone, I mean, being able to stand there and go, I did it.

[952] So can you?

[953] Yeah.

[954] That's, that's all most of us need.

[955] Representation.

[956] We need representation.

[957] You need, you just, please, show me one person that looks like me, has a background like me, you know, and has gone somewhere and turned around and goes, come on, you can do it too.

[958] Totally.

[959] It's invaluable.

[960] So early in her career, 1960.

[961] seat.

[962] So she's got this neighbor, you know, longtime family friend.

[963] His name is Cassius Clay.

[964] And he's an up -and -coming boxer.

[965] And he needs someone to negotiate his first professional fight contract for him.

[966] And so he hires his friend, Alberta Jones, to, you know, of course he later becomes known as Muhammad Ali.

[967] And she against or like with or against 11 wealthy white businessmen, working on this contract, make sure that he gets a fair deal and even make sure that some of the money is put in a trust that he can't touch till after he's 35 because she's like, I fucking know you're just going to, you know, you're excited to spend it all.

[968] So she, yeah, this fucking lawyer, she negotiates this contract for him.

[969] Hell yes.

[970] Amazing.

[971] Brilliant.

[972] So she's also, of course, a massive civil rights activists, a member of the NAACP.

[973] She marches in Louisville protests, attends the March on Washington in 1963 in August, and she forms the Independent Voters Association of Louisville.

[974] And so she, with that association, she and they are able to register 6 ,000 black voters in Louisville, which is a huge amount of people.

[975] If 6 ,000 extra people voted in this upcoming election, it would sway things.

[976] So, you know, it's important.

[977] So I just have to stop you really quick to say that it is bumming me out where we're going with this because I've never heard of this person.

[978] No, I know.

[979] And it's it's that it's that we had never heard of her and all her work and then we had never heard of the other stuff and it's it's we can, it's time and, you know, Washington Post and New York Times and all these outlets are finally giving her and what happened to her the attention it deserves.

[980] So amazing.

[981] I'm bummed.

[982] I know.

[983] I know.

[984] Okay.

[985] Me too.

[986] When she's doing this voter association, you know, uh, thing work, work, she also rents voting machines so that she can teach, you know, teach the people how to vote when they get in there.

[987] So they're not nervous and freaked out.

[988] They know what, you know, needs to be done.

[989] I'm sure it's a really scary thing.

[990] I would have loved that.

[991] Right.

[992] To vote for the first time.

[993] Yeah.

[994] Yes.

[995] It's nerve and it's fucking, you know, these groups of black people who have never voted before and she wants them to be confident when they walk in.

[996] And because of this, this movement ends up causing a major political shakeup in 1961.

[997] When black voters help oust the old school mayor and many of the city's aldermen, they fucking vote those fucking old school racist dickheads out.

[998] Yeah.

[999] Because of their activism.

[1000] So, and because of this less conservative administration is, is in place.

[1001] and Louisville finally starts enacting anti -discrimination policies.

[1002] And Alberta Jones is also single -handedly able to integrate Louisville's city hall by forcing officials to hire black employees.

[1003] So she's this fucking little cute, fucking sprightly, smart, excited, powerful woman who's able to make these changes in her early 30s.

[1004] Like, incredible.

[1005] One better.

[1006] I mean, dude.

[1007] you actually have the joie de vivre.

[1008] That's right.

[1009] In 1964, Alberta is appointed as city attorney in Louisville, the first woman to ever hold that position.

[1010] In 1964, that's so incredible.

[1011] It's so good.

[1012] In February the following year, she's also appointed prosecutor for the domestic relations court, which is another first for a woman and a person of color.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] And she's responsible for prosecuting mostly white men for spousal abuse.

[1015] Wow.

[1016] Okay.

[1017] So let's get to the bummer part.

[1018] Because this is a strong, brave young woman and she's this force.

[1019] She's up and coming in her career and life.

[1020] It's a shock to everyone who knows her when on August 5th, 1965, Alberta at 34 years old is found dead in the Ohio River.

[1021] It's near Louisville's Sherman Minton Bridge.

[1022] Initially, police think her.

[1023] death is due to drowning, you know?

[1024] I don't know.

[1025] Maybe they thought Chia just jumped.

[1026] But her car has discovered several blocks from the bridge and there's a massive amount of blood inside.

[1027] And then they do the autopsy and they determined that she had received several severe blows to the head, they think with a brick before entering the water unconscious and dies from drowning.

[1028] And it's, it just doesn't, there's no rhyme or reason.

[1029] The night she died, Alberta's sister, Flora Shanklin, says that her sister had gotten a call from a friend and that friend had been facing a lawsuit and like asked her to come out and discuss the lawsuit with her.

[1030] It was like late at night.

[1031] Alberta was like, I don't want to, but the friend kind of, you know, it was like a girlfriend convinced her to go out.

[1032] It doesn't seem like there's anything involved with this, but I don't know.

[1033] And so Flora says the last time she talked to her sister, Alberta was on the couch reading a magazine about how about the Kennedy assassination, which had happened like two years before.

[1034] And the last thing Alberta said to her was casually, I hope I don't get assassinated.

[1035] And Flora responded, you don't have to worry about it.

[1036] You're not the president of the United States.

[1037] And that just stuck with her.

[1038] Oh.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] So police investigate the murder.

[1041] They find witnesses who report having seen a woman being attacked and dragged near the bridge by three unidentified men the night.

[1042] Alberta died, which I feel like in 1965, you didn't interrupt stuff like that?

[1043] I don't know.

[1044] They just saw it and moved on.

[1045] It's like they witnessed it and I don't know.

[1046] They didn't call anybody.

[1047] Like this is domestic.

[1048] I don't, I don't want anything to do with this.

[1049] Three against one is not domestic.

[1050] No. Who fucking knows.

[1051] Unless you're having.

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] No. No. And then strangely, they find her purse three years after the murder hanging from that bridge the Sherman Minton Bridge almost like someone came back to get rid of the purse or it tried to give a clue three years later it shows up and it has its credit cards inside all the contents are still on there, the checks but the purse just shows up but the case does go cold and the family is left without answers Okay.

[1054] So let's fast forward to 2013.

[1055] A first year student at the Brandeis School of Law, her name is Lee Remington.

[1056] In some articles, it's Lee Remington Williams.

[1057] But the name Lee Remington is just a fucking, you're a cow person, you're a, you're a cow girl and you're fucking fighting the good fight, right?

[1058] Let's hope so.

[1059] She is.

[1060] She is.

[1061] So she is like passing through her.

[1062] her hallway.

[1063] She's at her law school.

[1064] She sees portraits of civil right leaders.

[1065] And she notices this photo of Alberta Jones.

[1066] And she is a big civil rights student.

[1067] She, that's like, you know, one of her passions.

[1068] And she's like, how do I not know who this woman, this black and white photo of this woman with all these other civil rights leaders?

[1069] How do I not know who this is?

[1070] And then she looks more into Alberta Jones.

[1071] And she's shocked to learn about her trailblazing accomplishments.

[1072] and hurt unsolved murder.

[1073] So she's shocked about it.

[1074] None of her classmates had ever heard of Alberta either.

[1075] So she decides to start writing a biography of Alberta Jones's life to get her more recognition.

[1076] And she even gets in touch with Jones's sister, Flora, who's now in her 80s.

[1077] Oh, wow.

[1078] And so Flora tells her all about her sister's death and how she thinks investigators ignored and buried evidence.

[1079] And she believes that someone, she, Flora's, uh, Flora thinks that someone paid the killers.

[1080] to kill her sister.

[1081] And that law enforcement didn't care about her sister's murder because they were indifferent about the murder of a civil rights activist at the time, which is fair.

[1082] Yeah.

[1083] For years, police told the family there's not enough evidence to arrest anyone and that none of the original investigators were even still alive.

[1084] So they couldn't even, it wasn't even worth reopening the case.

[1085] And so when Lee Remington starts her research in 2013, police tell her that the witnesses in the case are all also dead and there's like, there's nothing to be done.

[1086] But Lee Runnington gets access to the case file through an open records request and starts reviewing everything.

[1087] And she discovers that one of the detectives who worked on the case at the time was super young when he was a detective.

[1088] And he's still alive.

[1089] They're not all dead.

[1090] And so she goes and interviews him.

[1091] And he tells her he was in charge of collecting most of the evidence and writing the case report back during the 1965 investigation and tells her some details and that there is evidence that was collected.

[1092] and, you know, like, vacuuming the car for any trace evidence and fingerprints and shit.

[1093] So she's like, this could still be an active case.

[1094] Then Lee Remington finds that there had actually been a new investigation into Alberta Jones's case back in 2008.

[1095] Because the FBI had matched a fingerprint found inside Alberta Jones's car to a man who was 17 years old at the time of the murder.

[1096] Oh.

[1097] who lived in the area.

[1098] He's referred to as CJ because he's not an official suspect.

[1099] We don't know his name.

[1100] So Detective Terry Jones of the Cold Case Squad had, in 2008, had interviewed this man and this dude, CJ, can't explain why his fingerprint is in this car and denies killing Alberta Jones.

[1101] Although the spot where her car had been found, which was kind of far from the bridge, was just a couple blocks from where he and his friends hung out.

[1102] And he claims, this guy, C .J. claims he was a bookworm.

[1103] He just graduated from high school.

[1104] He was going to college.

[1105] And he also said, so Alberta's car at the time was in the shop.

[1106] So the car that she was driving where they found the blood in was a rental car.

[1107] And so this guy, CJ was like, well, I hitchhiked a lot.

[1108] So maybe that's why my fingerprint was in the car.

[1109] I don't think so.

[1110] I mean, stranger things have happened.

[1111] However, let's dig into this a little more.

[1112] Yeah.

[1113] Yeah.

[1114] So C. J. offers to take a polygraph.

[1115] It's found that he's being deceptive, but he's never charged with anything.

[1116] And CJ's brother tells reporters that he and CJ had known Alberta Jones and had met her because she was friends with one of their doctors, but they didn't do it.

[1117] And his brother said he was home with him the night that Alberta was killed.

[1118] You know, it's fishy.

[1119] But two years after the fingerprint discovery, so it's like, you know, 2010, prosecutors write a letter to the police chief and let them know that they're not pursuing the case further because there aren't any blood samples from the scene available for DNA testing.

[1120] Like there's not more evidence to test.

[1121] Right.

[1122] Why is there not more evidence to test?

[1123] They threw it away.

[1124] It's just missing.

[1125] Entire evidence box is missing.

[1126] So although a shit ton of evidence was collected by FBI at the time, fingerprints, vacuum samples from every inch of the car, blood samples, the part.

[1127] purse and its contents, her dentures, cigarette butts from the car, her shoes, her clothes, it's all missing.

[1128] Whoa.

[1129] That's not, that's a very bad sign.

[1130] Uh -huh.

[1131] And I bet it's somewhere.

[1132] Like, even if it's legitimately like they can't find it, there's always those fucking storerooms and warehouses.

[1133] But then you always hear about the floods and the fires that, like, destroy evidence.

[1134] And it's just so we can't do.

[1135] If there, if there was something much more sinister and calculated about it, then like saying that those three people were hired to kill her, then they, you know, then, then somebody could also have the juice to then make that case file go missing, right?

[1136] Evidence go missing.

[1137] And there are people, you know, that she had issues with, although everyone loved her, of course, she was a prosecutor and she was prosecuting men for spousal abuse, which is going to piss some people off.

[1138] And the people she had to work with in the courthouse also didn't fucking love the idea that they are working with or fighting against a black woman so they're pissed about it you know it's like then there's also the her influence on on politics and the vote the voter like basically like that's the power alone of that act yeah is huge yeah the people that are out there can have issues with her and yeah hire someone and it's it's a more complicated case to study but you that's your job if you're an investigator so um it's your job right and they also they uh the cold case unit says that there's no one involved with the case that's still alive again that's back then in 2008 that's their narrative but so lee runnington now finds that this letter finds this letter um and starts to refute each point um she now has over almost 1600 pages of research that she's uncovered through public records she's fucking like down this rabbit hole, which is amazing.

[1139] The most glaring one being that one of the detectives involved is still alive.

[1140] So she's like, your argument doesn't make any sense.

[1141] I found him.

[1142] You can talk to him.

[1143] But also, is that the rule in cold cases?

[1144] If the detectives who originally investigated are alive, then too bad?

[1145] Like, I don't, that doesn't make sense.

[1146] It doesn't make sense.

[1147] You don't have primary sources.

[1148] But you can also have that their notes and interviews at the time should stand for that.

[1149] That's the whole idea of keeping files and having an evidence room and obviously.

[1150] Exactly.

[1151] So Lee Remington also says that police back in 2008 failed to interview several friends that CJ had mentioned hanging out with some of who lived, quote, a stone's throw from where the witness is reported seeing Jones abducted.

[1152] And she says that CJ should be re -interviewed.

[1153] People describe CJ as meek and harmless.

[1154] And actually, Lee Remington says she doesn't think that he's the killer, but she's thinks he definitely knows more than he's letting on to.

[1155] Yeah, I think they described Ted Bundy as being meek and harmless as well and attractive.

[1156] Uh -huh.

[1157] And there's also, you know, there's speculation of, you know, what we already talked about as well as maybe her murderer has to do with the contract she was drying up for Muhammad Ali's fights, you know, which there's, I mean, there's no, I haven't seen any, there's no basis for that, but that's just speculation around town.

[1158] So in 2017.

[1159] That seems like pulling that.

[1160] the other famous name into the story.

[1161] Right, right.

[1162] And so still it's a lot of money.

[1163] It's a lot of money writing on this thing.

[1164] A lot of money.

[1165] Maybe she's fucking with it and they don't like it, you know?

[1166] Maybe.

[1167] Yeah, maybe she's cutting in in a way that's like going to establish a precedent.

[1168] That, you know, it's like everywhere she went, she was actually really powerful.

[1169] And young and powerful.

[1170] And stirring shit up.

[1171] Yeah.

[1172] Which is great.

[1173] Okay.

[1174] So in 2017, Lee Remington Williams, now, she's now a professor, with the PhD, she sends a letter to the chief of the Louisville Metro Police Department requesting that the department reopened the investigation.

[1175] And so the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice also decides to get involved and the investigation is funded because there's this new law that had come in, the Emmett Till Unsolved Civil Rights Crime Act, which provides 13 .5 million annual funds to the Department of Justice, the FBI, and the state and local law enforcement agency.

[1176] to investigate and prosecute pre -1970s killings.

[1177] And, of course, Emmett Till is a 14 -year -old African -American child who was lynched in Mississippi in 1955 after being wrongfully accused of offending a white woman in her family's grocery store.

[1178] And his white killers were acquitted.

[1179] It's just this whole, what's the word?

[1180] Travesty of justice?

[1181] It's this whole travesty of justice.

[1182] It's sick.

[1183] And so now all this money is being put into investing.

[1184] you know crimes like this that should have gone a different way yeah that should have been investigated and properly prosecuted in a meaningful way exactly so finally 52 years after her murder alberta jones's case is officially reopened and this means her i know and this means her case also finally gets recognized by nationwide media outlets like the new york times who did this great article about it and the washington post wow but her so it's reopened she's getting the attention she deserves.

[1185] And her legacy as a civil rights pioneer and advocate is also finally being recognized as well.

[1186] So because of the new attention around her case, which is this tragic thing, but also her work is being celebrated.

[1187] And so in the fall of 2017, Alberta Jones is honored in a hometown hero's ceremony, including a large banner of her photo being hung in downtown Louisville at 6th and Muhammad Ali.

[1188] And it's this.

[1189] huge, beautiful, you know, photo.

[1190] A local councilwoman sponsors a resolution to rename a street near Alberta's old downtown office honorary Alberta Jones Esquire Boulevard.

[1191] And there's portraits and plaques of her placed in the county's attorney's office, the University of Louisville Law School, and the library at Bellarmine University where she attended law school and a law scholarship at Bellarmine is now named Jones's honor and at her high school central high school there's a new law and government magnet program and the classroom stands as a courtroom and it's named in her honor oh you know it's so good uh -huh and there haven't been any new leads unfortunately yet in recent years although the attention that's like being put on this case maybe we'll make some people want to you know confess what they know or finally, you know, talk.

[1192] Yeah, exactly.

[1193] But a sergeant on the Louisville Homicide Department says that the case is still open.

[1194] And as for Alberta Jones, she has this quote.

[1195] So people were constantly doubting her saying, you know, she had gotten home from law school and they're like, you have two strikes against you already.

[1196] You're a woman and you're black.

[1197] Like what, what do you think you're doing?

[1198] And she would respond, quote, yeah.

[1199] but I've got one strike left and I've seen people get home runs when all they've got left is one strike.

[1200] Hell yeah.

[1201] And that is the story of civil rights activist Alberta Jones and her tragic murder.

[1202] Alberta Jones.

[1203] That's a name more people should know.

[1204] Look her up.

[1205] I mean she's fucking I mean she's light and power and love.

[1206] There's so many stories though that are like this where it's the murder of black people who are making and affecting change in places that need it so badly.

[1207] It's so part of the tragedy is how common this kind of a story is and how much we don't hear about it and how, you know, swept under the rug it is, yeah.

[1208] Yeah, and it feels like in his last, you know, in his last five months or so, it's people are, especially, it's white people starting to wake up to the fact that they have these, incredibly incomplete education and picture of how this country has been working and how it needs to change.

[1209] And also just speaking about this, because Alberta Jones is from Louisville, they still need to arrest the cops that murdered Brianna Taylor.

[1210] Fucking straight out murdered.

[1211] It has to happen.

[1212] Everybody knows this case.

[1213] This, it's, her face has been on the cover of Oprah magazine.

[1214] I mean, it's like this.

[1215] talk about something I bet you Alberta Jones would get behind in a very meaningful way if she wasn't murdered in the prime of her life fighting for the murder of a young woman who was absolutely had every one of her rights absolutely there is no world where you can argue that that was not murder from the from the cop who lied to get that warrant to the cop who fucking signed it knowing that it was incorrect and that the person who they were signing the warrant for had already been arrested that day to the number of bullets that were shot into everything going against procedure i mean it's so egregious it's so beyond got to change yeah great job beautifully done i'm so excited that i know who alberta jones is now thank you for that yeah well okay let's let's end this by reading some fucking raise this is from kelsey um at this Mrs. Robinson.

[1216] I have a fucking hooray.

[1217] Going back to teaching has been one of the most stressful and trying seasons of my life.

[1218] Not knowing what will happen between health things.

[1219] She called it one of the seasons of her life.

[1220] And I bet you she's not over 30 years old.

[1221] She's definitely still in the spring, winter area.

[1222] Okay.

[1223] Not knowing what will happen between health safety, mental health, and the status of my job.

[1224] People insulting and manipulating the situation makes you question if it's It's all worth it.

[1225] But this week, I was reminded why I chose this job, the kids.

[1226] I teach three -year -olds to 11 -year -olds, and they are messaging me how they miss me and love me. I'm reminded that this is a season that will pass and reminded of the kindness in people.

[1227] Shout out to MFM for highlighting the good, and we can all persevere through these times together.

[1228] Did you guys hear about the shout -out in the leather getting a specific?

[1229] Oh, yeah, I know about that.

[1230] Squirley Dan is a fan too.

[1231] Hey.

[1232] Hey, good job, Kelsey.

[1233] Sorry you're in that situation.

[1234] And it's very smart of you to keep it positive like that.

[1235] Yeah.

[1236] And thanks letter Kenny for the shout out.

[1237] Thanks letter Kenny.

[1238] We talked about that a long time.

[1239] That's a while ago, right?

[1240] Yeah.

[1241] But yeah.

[1242] Hell yeah.

[1243] Canada.

[1244] What's up Canada?

[1245] Um, lovely.

[1246] This is from Conman Bell 14 on Instagram.

[1247] Hi, Karen and Georgia.

[1248] My fucking hooray I wanted to share with you guys is as a 24 year old gay Christian, I've recently.

[1249] came out to my parents and hoped to soon introduce them to my amazing boyfriend of three years.

[1250] My message to others is that no matter where you are in your coming out journey, is that you matter and you are loved both inside and outside of the closet.

[1251] Thank you ladies for doing what you do and for being allies to the LGBTQ plus community SSGM, Connor.

[1252] Yay, Connor.

[1253] That's like double hard gay Christian, but you fucking did it.

[1254] like he did it what an incredible feat yeah we're proud of you awesome um yeah congrats yeah okay this one's from victoria my fucking hooray is that my family and i have been playing an uno championship since the beginning of lockdown yes we didn't have any idea how long it would last but we knew we would keep playing until one of us went back to quote normal life my dad went into his office last week so we finished our five month long championship and i won with a score of 7 ,342.

[1255] The losing score was 8 ,338.

[1256] It's been such a lovely way to spend our evenings together, especially as I'm going back to university soon, and we will be living 3 .5 hours away.

[1257] Thank you, murder gals.

[1258] Love this podcast so much.

[1259] You're all awesome.

[1260] Keep doing what you're doing.

[1261] You are valid.

[1262] You are supported.

[1263] Oh, Victoria.

[1264] I think, Victoria.

[1265] Sorry, I needed that.

[1266] Oh, to all the kids going back to school.

[1267] Fuck.

[1268] Good luck.

[1269] I've been really enjoying the university.

[1270] You know, they all have to go two weeks before to like quarantine and the meals that they've been giving them that are disgusting meals in their dorms.

[1271] We've been really enjoying those photos.

[1272] Okay.

[1273] I'm enjoying how people are going back.

[1274] Immediately 58 people get sick and then they cancel in person classes.

[1275] Which they should be doing.

[1276] They should be doing.

[1277] It's crazy.

[1278] This one's from Benji Souther.

[1279] Here's a fucking hooray.

[1280] Right as COVID started, I found out my best friend had a move from D .C. to California for work.

[1281] That night I broke down and told him I had feelings for him.

[1282] Turns out he felt the same way too, but we'd both been too nervous to say anything because he's a cis straight guy and I'm a trans gay guy.

[1283] and he wanted to make sure my gender felt respected.

[1284] And I wanted to be sure his sexual identity felt respected.

[1285] Three days.

[1286] This is a modern love super.

[1287] I know.

[1288] I love it.

[1289] Three days later, I got COVID symptoms and moved in with him because I had been with my parents and they have heart disease.

[1290] Long story short, I'm typing this from a hotel room in Western Nebraska on the third morning of our cross -country road trip.

[1291] And because quarantine time is weird, we're talking about marriage.

[1292] Wow.

[1293] I can't remember the last time I felt this happy.

[1294] And I've saved a backlog of MFM for the trip.

[1295] So you've been there with me for the ride, SSDGM, Ben.

[1296] And I look, of course, had to fucking sneak and look at the Instagram that they, and it's the cutest.

[1297] I cried.

[1298] I cried.

[1299] It's like, it's the best things about social media.

[1300] It's beautiful.

[1301] That's so lovely.

[1302] It's the younger generation.

[1303] they're going to but like the the beautiful part of it is that like that's such a brave thing to do that's such a strong brave kind of like important thing to declare feelings in such a risky situation and such a question mark it's so totally i mean it's like it's only one life and you get to decide what chances you want to take and are willing to take whether they're going to work out or not you you get to decide and like are you going to regret you know when you're fucking 40 that you like me you didn't you didn't take those chances you know right yeah that you didn't like what the you calculated that risk yeah you did it right and it worked out for you and we're fucking stoked for you stoked and super jealous which i think is even better a better compliment is i kind of hate you a little bit for being so young and strong and madden that you're like you know what I'm so, I'm valid, of course, he'll like me back.

[1304] Where the fuck did you get that?

[1305] Because that's self -esteem in a nutshell.

[1306] That's how you build self -esteem.

[1307] That's how you build it.

[1308] That's what Gen X parents give you.

[1309] That's right.

[1310] You know?

[1311] We didn't get any.

[1312] You and I had fucking boomers as parents and they were like, you're going to eat that.

[1313] A man will never love you if you're a 50 ,000 away.

[1314] Mary, well, marry a rich man, Georgia.

[1315] Mary, go to college so they can meet a rich man. Get yourself a doctor.

[1316] What?

[1317] Don't you want me to be a doctor?

[1318] That's not true.

[1319] My dad would say, get yourself a doctor.

[1320] My mom would say, no, become a doctor.

[1321] Yeah.

[1322] You know that share quote where she goes, my mom always told me to marry a rich man. And I said, mom, I am a rich man. My fucking favorite.

[1323] Listen to share, whatever you do.

[1324] For real.

[1325] That's a way to live a life right there.

[1326] That's right.

[1327] That was a nice batch.

[1328] Good job, everybody.

[1329] Everyone's, you know, in the midst of a real shit time, there are people who are.

[1330] making it work anyway.

[1331] And just try a little bit.

[1332] That's all you got to do.

[1333] We believe in you.

[1334] Thank you guys for listening.

[1335] Stephen, thank you for helping us in a RV right now.

[1336] In the middle of a desert in Arizona.

[1337] I love it if everyone thinks I'm in a desert.

[1338] Yeah, that's right.

[1339] Stephen's in the middle of the desert in an RV.

[1340] He's doing Burning Man by himself this year.

[1341] Yeah.

[1342] How is he engineering on that?

[1343] On the playoff?

[1344] I'm already on ayahuasca.

[1345] Yeah, bring me back some.

[1346] That's why you were barfing on mute while we were doing our stories.

[1347] I love it.

[1348] Send us your fucking arrays wherever.

[1349] And thank you guys.

[1350] Thank you guys for being there for us.

[1351] We get lots of stories about like you, we're here for you because you're listening to our voices or it's making feel that you guys have changed our lives so much for the better.

[1352] I'm going to cry.

[1353] And we can't, we can't, literally cannot thank you directly or properly, especially in quarantine.

[1354] But we love you.

[1355] Please know it deep in your heart.

[1356] And we mean you.

[1357] Specifically you.

[1358] Specifically you.

[1359] Yes, the one who thinks it's not you.

[1360] No, you're important to us.

[1361] Here's another thing I want you to hear.

[1362] Stay sexy.

[1363] And don't get murdered.

[1364] Goodbye.

[1365] Elvis, do you want a cookie?