S12 E5: Hold the F*ck Up

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] Episodes can discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, suicide, and murder.

[12] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[13] If you're in need of support, please visit something was wrong .com slash resources for a list of nonprofit organizations that can help.

[14] Some names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[15] Opinions expressed by the guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of myself or audio chuck.

[16] Resources and source material are linked in the episode notes.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] You think you know me, you don't know me well.

[19] I think we're all at a party, and that's when Harper had shared that she found his real name.

[20] I had heard briefly, but she didn't tell me his name, and I couldn't remember it because we were out of party, and then I found out that they, like, got back together.

[21] And when I had seen Hartburn, again, she told me his real name.

[22] And, you know, when you Googled it, the sites were miraculously down.

[23] So it added validity again to his witness protection.

[24] The page on the site was live.

[25] And then as soon as they found out, it went down.

[26] I was like, well, you know, if I was a real company, I'd probably do features.

[27] I would tag them.

[28] Or maybe there's videos or maybe there's like office things or something like that.

[29] And I went to the Instagram feed that they have.

[30] And sure enough, right there, they do features.

[31] And I was like, great, probably won't be able to find anything here.

[32] I mean, who wants to scroll through so many images to see someone tagged and would he be tagged?

[33] And they did features and would have, like, family photos, photos of them out on the field.

[34] and I think I probably scrolled maybe three, like four, you know, when you have like the gallery view and you scroll down.

[35] I think I probably did four scrolls down and there he was.

[36] His face, everything right there.

[37] And I clicked on it.

[38] It had him tagged his real handle, which was crazy because, I mean, your witness protection, you probably shouldn't even have an Instagram handle, but he had one.

[39] And then what they had was, like, one image, a face shot, which was definitely him, his first and last name, which were nothing like this real one.

[40] And then the more you scrolled, it was like him at a wedding dancing and like a quote, him on a hike with a girl, and a quote.

[41] And then I think the final two images is like, oh, he's wearing his suit.

[42] And then scrolled.

[43] And then the next image was him in the aisle with a girl.

[44] And I was like, well, he's married.

[45] So, yeah, there was pretty kind of a complicated, like, feeling you feel I knew something wasn't right about you, but in disbelief.

[46] Like, what an asshole.

[47] How are you going to go about telling your friend this?

[48] And then from there, I just kept digging.

[49] Once you found his name and then once you found the page promoting him, it all really came out so easily.

[50] As soon as I found out his name, I, like, didn't stop.

[51] But it really, surprisingly, wasn't very hard at all.

[52] It's amazing how open people are on the Internet.

[53] That's what's funny to me. As soon as you found his real name through the help of Harper, it all just came flooding out.

[54] I just was staring at this images.

[55] Maybe that's not him getting married, you know?

[56] And then I thought, well, if I had a family member, like a sibling.

[57] He was an agent and I wanted to support them.

[58] I'd probably follow this company.

[59] And I probably would like this photo or I would comment on it.

[60] And I checked out the likes and I was hoping maybe his wife liked it because at that point it was pretty clear he was in Nile and he was getting married.

[61] There could always be an explanation.

[62] I just started one by one because, you know, not many likes so it was pretty easy to go through one by one on who was checking it out and one of the first people that I selected maybe like the fourth person it was his what I found to be his sister -in -law she had a very public Instagram she was very active about posting on it and again not far down scroll there it was her on a beach with this man next to her who she revealed to be her husband.

[63] And the photo that Joe had in his shot was him at the beach on an aisle.

[64] They look fancy, they're on a beach, and there they have, like, the hashtag from their wedding.

[65] And I was like, great, let's see where this takes us.

[66] I selected the hashtag for the wedding, and it brought me to a lot.

[67] There was him on an aisle.

[68] There was one from his brother, which I don't know if we knew he had a brother.

[69] It was his brother getting married, which was, you know, Joe.

[70] And it was a picture on the aisle holding his wife's hand.

[71] I think what really surprised me was the timing of the wedding, which was November of 2019.

[72] So he didn't wait any time before pursuing another relationship.

[73] And I just kept looking at the images from the hashtag, who is posting them.

[74] How are they related to this mix?

[75] I found his wife and then his wife's twin.

[76] Then the wife's twin was in an image with another man, who obviously was her boyfriend, partner.

[77] And that guy was tagged in the photo, and it just revealed another wormhole.

[78] He doesn't know it, but he probably was the biggest hell.

[79] And this whole pulling together the truth, he was very active on social media and wasn't private and tagged every single person.

[80] Then it just continuously unfolded from this.

[81] Once you find one thing, you can't stop looking.

[82] I was texting Harper while I was finding this information.

[83] And it was like every second I had something new to share and some new truth to share from the wife's twins Instagram.

[84] I was able to piece together that throughout 2020, they went on multiple vacations as a family with Joe.

[85] Meanwhile, Kenzie's here thinking he's like on set or something.

[86] I have no idea.

[87] The amount of lives and duo life really unfolded.

[88] He went on vacations.

[89] He did trips with them.

[90] They were friends.

[91] They were interacting.

[92] It was just, I don't know.

[93] It was so crazy.

[94] Joe's sister -in -law.

[95] She was also super posting.

[96] She had been with Joe's brother for a long time, so there was a lot of history there, which sounds really creepy for me to say that at this point in time.

[97] It's like, I feel like I'm part of a family.

[98] Not in a good way.

[99] What also unfolded is she had a photo, and it was the majority of Joe's family.

[100] And some things stuck out in that shot was that there was a woman, And this woman turned out to be Joe's mom, which is funny because Joe claimed his mom had passed away.

[101] And there she was on social media, Joe's mom.

[102] She never passed away.

[103] And then what else was also interesting about that photo was that you can click on it and see who's tagged, right?

[104] And on Joe, there were two Instagram handles tagged.

[105] And one was his current Instagram handle, which was private.

[106] And another one wasn't private.

[107] I initially thought, sure, you know, she just mislabeled someone.

[108] She placed it on him because it was his second Instagram handle.

[109] This one was from years before, like 2010, 10 years before.

[110] That one was crazy because he clearly had a glow up.

[111] And it revealed some truths about him.

[112] He didn't completely make up his past, like a psychopath.

[113] He leveraged some truths.

[114] It kind of just revealed like a whole other side to him where it was like, oh, wow, we really didn't know him.

[115] Because he looked completely different.

[116] He definitely had to glow up from talking with Joe.

[117] He was really into country music.

[118] And sure enough, in this prior old Instagram handle, he's there at a concert with a very old girlfriend.

[119] and he's so into it.

[120] Okay, well, you didn't lie about that.

[121] That was true.

[122] I mean, you didn't make country music videos, but you definitely wanted to, definitely projecting some kind of desire, wish of a life you had.

[123] But there was a video of him that he reposted.

[124] It was him on a local news station, giving an interview to someone about some kind of crime he witnessed.

[125] And what was shocking to me was, Here's this guy who claimed he was from the UK and had this British accent and in this video, he didn't.

[126] He had a very Michigan accent.

[127] I was like, wow.

[128] I mean, I don't even know what to say to that.

[129] Like, to me, the tip of the burg, oh, he's married.

[130] But then you keep digging and you're like, okay, not only you just got married and then you keep digging and you're like, but you have family, but you've kept them away.

[131] And then you keep digging and you're like, your mom's not dead.

[132] But she supposedly died.

[133] And then you keep digging.

[134] And then you're like, you don't even have a British accent.

[135] Like, that's all fake.

[136] That's a year and a half of fake acting, faking a British accent and using British terms and staying in character, even when you're drunk.

[137] Like, what did you feel?

[138] Did you feel like physically sick as you're discovering all of this?

[139] Yeah.

[140] And that all was in a couple hours.

[141] I felt mixed emotions.

[142] Part of me felt vindicated in a way for, you know, Kenzie and all of our feelings.

[143] These red flags, our gut wasn't wrong.

[144] It was completely right.

[145] At the same time, I felt scared for Kenzie because this person went to such lengths to make up this life and to fake an accent.

[146] That's what I kept coming back to is maybe you can justify some things.

[147] but, like, faking an accent, that's a whole other level.

[148] I felt sick.

[149] I felt vindicated.

[150] In the searching of this, you can find out where he lives.

[151] I more felt angry, like, fuck this dude, to feel like he could do that to someone and play with their emotions.

[152] And then at the same time, it's like, well, fuck.

[153] Like, now you have all this information and you have all this proof.

[154] How do you tell your friend, that they've been brainwashed, gas -lighted, lied to all of that for over a year, how do you deliver that message?

[155] I think that's the part that made me feel sick.

[156] You can't just send that over and zip file and be like, here you go.

[157] You can't do that.

[158] So as mediation sort of wrapping up, it took about two weeks, which I felt like was fast, but I don't know.

[159] He's, you know, wrapping his stuff up.

[160] He came home one day and he was like, I want to talk to you about something.

[161] I feel like I'm going to get better treatment up at this hospital in the Midwest.

[162] He was like, I feel like I should be up there.

[163] They are really well known for this type of cancer.

[164] And considering that it's progressed more than we expected it to, I think that I would get better treatment if I decided to go up there.

[165] And I was like, okay.

[166] and he was like, do you want to come with me?

[167] And I was like, yeah, I mean, I do.

[168] I do want to come with you.

[169] But, you know, I have my job and my life and things to think about here.

[170] I'd have to really set a lot of things up to make that happen.

[171] But I could, like my boss and everyone at work knew what was going on.

[172] They knew that you were dealing with this cancer.

[173] And I knew that if I went into work and told them, hey, I'd like to work remotely for the next three months while he goes through treatment, that my boss would be understanding of it.

[174] because I really liked my job and I didn't want to leave it.

[175] I think I can figure it out.

[176] Maybe if it was like a half week up there, half down here sort of situation.

[177] And he was like, well, I'll fly you back and forth as much as you need.

[178] Like, we'll make it happen.

[179] We'll make it work.

[180] And I was like, okay, we decided to make that happen.

[181] And we're like, this is our decision.

[182] This will be the best thing for his treatment.

[183] So he was like, I'm going to go up there this coming weekend and sort of get situated with the doctors.

[184] I'll get an Airbnb for us.

[185] And then you can come up next week because he was going to start treatment.

[186] that following week.

[187] And I was like, hey, sounds good.

[188] He flies up there.

[189] And he had been getting spiritual because his cancer had been progressing more than we anticipated and it was getting a little scary.

[190] He was like, I'm going to church, I think.

[191] And he wasn't really somebody who's religious.

[192] So that was like saying a lot.

[193] And I'm not religious in a traditional sense, but I am spiritual.

[194] So I supported him.

[195] He was more so atheist before.

[196] I supported him trying to find that.

[197] He went up there and decided to find a church and find a nice Airbnb and tour the hospital, talk to some doctors, and get us situated.

[198] At this time, so much has gone down that I really haven't gotten to tell my friend group about it.

[199] I need to tell them I'm leaving.

[200] I mean, we decided this pretty quickly.

[201] And I shoot out a text message to them and I'm like, hey, Joe's cancer is progressing.

[202] and we decided that the best route would be to have him get treatment up north.

[203] So I was shocked, and then I was like, wait, when are you going?

[204] I think this was like a Monday when we were talking.

[205] And she said, Wednesday.

[206] You mean this Wednesday?

[207] This Wednesday, in two days you will be going to Minnesota to stay for how long.

[208] Are you just going there to get him settled in?

[209] What's happening?

[210] She said, I don't know when I'll be back next time, but, you know, I will be coming back eventually.

[211] eventually.

[212] I just don't know when.

[213] And so at this point, I was very alarmed.

[214] I was still talking on this separate chat thread with Charlotte and Harper, but I went back to the text with Kenzie and I was like, hey, since you're leaving so soon, are you free for a little wine night while you pack?

[215] And luckily she was like, yeah, let's do that.

[216] I'm like, okay, great.

[217] I had planned to talk to her.

[218] I didn't know But I also didn't want to talk to her if Joe was here because that's an awkward situation.

[219] I was like, I'll come to you, but I won't stay too late because I'm sure Joe's really tired.

[220] He's been feeling really sick.

[221] I'm sure he's really tired and doesn't want visitors for so long.

[222] And I was trying to scope out to find out where Joe was because I didn't know where he was if he was with Kenzie.

[223] Luckily, she told me, oh no, he's actually in Minnesota.

[224] He went up to Minnesota last weekend.

[225] I was like, oh my God, I struck gold.

[226] Joe's not there.

[227] I can talk to Kenzie alone, at least.

[228] So at this point, I get on a group call with Charlotte and Harper, and I'm like, guys, I'm freaking out.

[229] I don't know how to say this.

[230] I don't have proof.

[231] I don't have anything.

[232] Like, what the hell am I going to say?

[233] Harper is trying to calm me down.

[234] Harper's a lot more calm.

[235] I am starting to suspect he is probably having an affair with Kenzie.

[236] And at this point, I'm only speculating that.

[237] I was like, you know, Now, Harper, I think he might be married.

[238] Like, my money right now is that he's married.

[239] Harper tells me, so he is.

[240] I was like, oh, we know this.

[241] She said, I found out about a month or so ago.

[242] And I told Kenzie, but Kenzie was still kind of, you know, going back and forth with it.

[243] And she was really struggling.

[244] But she didn't want any of you guys to know because, you know, she didn't want us to make assumptions.

[245] She didn't want the judgment, which I understand.

[246] And it's at this point that Charlotte, she's like, you know, I actually did some research on my end.

[247] And that dude is lying about a hell of a lot more.

[248] And I was like, please tell me, give me these receipts.

[249] I need them.

[250] I need to send these to Kenzie.

[251] And she was saying, well, for starters, he had come clean about being married.

[252] And he told her that he had filed for divorce.

[253] So it had been filed.

[254] Charlotte at this point was like, if he did file that, they are still hanging out.

[255] He was with her this past weekend.

[256] They were in...

[257] They went to whatever game was going on at that point.

[258] Which, when she said that, I'm like, interesting, because Kenzie definitely told me that Joe is in Minnesota because he's setting up the team and the place that they're going to stay for right now.

[259] But he's apparently in...

[260] Do you have proof?

[261] She's like, yes.

[262] Charlotte sent me a screen grab of Joe and his wife, and I think the wife's sister and brother -in -law.

[263] And they were at a game, like dates and everything.

[264] And I think Joe's brother -in -law even made a comment of, thanks for planning it, Joe.

[265] She started like continues on, and she says, you know, I found a hell of a lot more in this.

[266] What do you mean?

[267] How can this be worse?

[268] She's like, we found his real name.

[269] And she said, I definitely don't think he's in the entertainment industry.

[270] And she said, I think he's lying about everything.

[271] There's no way he's telling the truth about witness protection.

[272] I found his wedding website, I found his wedding hashtag, I found the photos.

[273] He got married, very, I think from the time he got married, I think that overlapped when Joe and Kenzie first met and started dating.

[274] And then Charlotte then said, you know, I don't even think he's British.

[275] And at that point, I'm like, what the fuck, what?

[276] That's such a foundational theme to have debunked.

[277] She said, I found this video, because God bless her, Charlotte went.

[278] deep diving.

[279] And very clearly in that video was not a British accent.

[280] So at that point, I was like, I have more than enough ammo with that alone.

[281] That is ridiculous.

[282] I told Charlotte, listen, I want to leave your name out of this just in case.

[283] At the end of the day, I know Kenzie will come back to her senses, but today she might be really pissed.

[284] And I don't know if she's going to want to talk to us for a little bit.

[285] Let's pin the blame on me for right now.

[286] because I already have something kind of set up to see her tonight.

[287] I'll just try and keep this as a generic as possible so that it preserves at least somebody's friendship.

[288] It was just super, super nerve -wracking.

[289] I just hope that she was going to be okay to hear it.

[290] My main goal was I just need to stop her from moving to Minnesota because I guess in my brain, when you're a kidnapped victim, where you first get snatched is location A. If you go to location B, your chances of escaping are significantly slim.

[291] He's trying to isolate her.

[292] He is taking her very far away.

[293] I was scared again for Kenzie.

[294] I was glad that Sophia was going to go talk to her because at that point, he was supposed to be in this cancer facility.

[295] And the same weekend, he's posting photos in with his wife, which proved in that moment that the camera, Chancellor was fake, and probably everything was fake.

[296] I was glad, at least it was all coming to light, but scared and sad for my friend.

[297] When we found out through Sophia that she bought a one -way ticket and was prepared to uprood her life temporarily for this man, I felt so scared for my friend.

[298] If you go up there, I don't know if she'll come back.

[299] That's terrifying.

[300] Here's this man that's been lying to you and faking to you, and what is it going to do with you?

[301] kidnap you, kill you, trap you.

[302] Your mind kind of spends.

[303] I felt like we need to tell her and we need to tell her now before she gets on that flight.

[304] I get a side message from my friend Sophia and she's like, when are you leaving?

[305] And I was like in like three days.

[306] And she's like, can I come over tonight?

[307] And I was like, yeah, sure.

[308] At this point, I am freaking out.

[309] I drive over to her place.

[310] She doesn't live that far, but it felt like the longest drive, but also the shortest drive.

[311] I was dreading it.

[312] I was so scared that Kenzie was going to be so angry that we dug.

[313] I felt really just super guilty.

[314] And, I mean, I wouldn't blame Kenzie if she was mad at me either.

[315] So she comes over with bottle of wine, maybe two.

[316] And she's acting weird.

[317] And I'm like, are you okay?

[318] And she just looks at me. And she's got like tears in her eyes.

[319] She's like, Joe isn't who he says.

[320] he is.

[321] Now, I was like, whoa, what do you mean?

[322] She goes, he's married.

[323] And I'm like, oh, God, they figured out about his wife.

[324] They figured out his wife.

[325] Now, I already know about his wife.

[326] So I'm like, okay, it's fine.

[327] And at this point, Kenzie is being shockingly receptive.

[328] She's like, yeah, okay.

[329] I'm opening up the bottle of wine and I'm like, look, Sophia, it's totally fine.

[330] I know about his wife.

[331] I've actually known for a couple of weeks and he's been going through the divorce process.

[332] I didn't want to tell anyone because I didn't want anyone to judge me for staying with a married man because it's really complicated.

[333] And I had my own reasons for staying that were like for myself.

[334] And I just decided to keep them close to chest.

[335] And she was like, and I saw the paperwork.

[336] He's filed for divorce.

[337] So I'm like, okay, are you sure he did that?

[338] She's like, yeah, I saw it.

[339] I'm like, okay, but anyone can get that kind of stuff.

[340] You can get paperwork off the internet.

[341] You can fill it out.

[342] It doesn't mean anything.

[343] So I'm like, whatever that relationship is, he's not telling you the truth.

[344] And she was like, well, why not?

[345] Earlier today, you told me he was in Minnesota this weekend.

[346] And today, she was like, yeah, he is.

[347] No, he's not.

[348] I have a photo from social media.

[349] I found this photo on Instagram that he was in this weekend with his wife.

[350] And she just kind of got very serious.

[351] She was like, what?

[352] I'm like, I have a photo.

[353] Do you want it?

[354] She's like, yeah, show me that photo immediately.

[355] She shows me this Instagram page that I had never seen before.

[356] And it's him and his wife and his wife's sister and brother -in -law.

[357] They're all at a football game that Sunday when he was supposed to be at church praying for his cancer.

[358] I was like, hold the fuck up.

[359] Hold on a second.

[360] Okay.

[361] She goes, there's more.

[362] Nothing he's told you.

[363] is true.

[364] Everything is a lie.

[365] He's not even British.

[366] I was like, what?

[367] And she was like, yeah, yeah.

[368] They were on the case.

[369] They were like, we don't feel good about this.

[370] Despite them all having interacted with him and having a rapport with him, they cared about me. They are great friends.

[371] They were like, something is wrong.

[372] We need to find out why.

[373] Apparently our friend Charlotte, she just decided to become a PI on this situation.

[374] She apparently spent, spent two days researching Joe.

[375] We all still joke about how, like, she is a PI.

[376] She was determined and she did the work.

[377] I had found out later that I was blocked from all social media accounts.

[378] His account, his wife's account, all of their accounts.

[379] And that was done by Joe.

[380] He absolutely went in there.

[381] He was able to get into his wife's account and block me. And he was able to block most of my friends.

[382] But he missed Charlotte.

[383] He missed one.

[384] And that was his undoing.

[385] Charlotte, hell yeah.

[386] Shout out.

[387] For real.

[388] Seriously.

[389] Cheers to friends like Charlotte, 100%.

[390] So my friend Sophia, who's standing in front of me with tears in her eyes, was like, the reason I'm here in Charlotte isn't is because Charlotte's so afraid to tell you.

[391] She's afraid you're going to be mad at her.

[392] And I was like, are you kidding me?

[393] I was like, you guys are the best friends in the world to have gone to this effort to make sure that I was okay.

[394] Like, I would never be mad about this.

[395] Like, you are worried about me and you found some shit.

[396] Like, This is nothing to be upset about.

[397] This isn't like some gossip.

[398] This is serious.

[399] Sophia was like, I was afraid that he was going to take you out of state and we were never going to see you again.

[400] What the hell would have happened to you?

[401] If he got you out of state and we don't know who he is, you don't know who he is, no one knows what he's capable of.

[402] If he's been lying about all this stuff since day one, what if he just stole you?

[403] What if he just took you away?

[404] And we never heard from you again.

[405] And he was like texting from yourself.

[406] phone or something, and we're all thinking you're okay.

[407] And she's like, I was honestly afraid he was about to steal you from us.

[408] And she's not wrong.

[409] I don't know.

[410] I honestly don't know.

[411] Like, there's still so much about this man that I never got answers to.

[412] Sophia drops this bomb on me. Charlotte is at home worried about how I'm going to react.

[413] I'm like, tell Charlotte to come over here.

[414] I need to thank her, hug her, and you guys need to be here for this.

[415] Sophia texted me and said, you should come over.

[416] Kenzie knows.

[417] I came over and I was like, please don't be mad.

[418] You kind of question, oh, well, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm overthinking things or reading into things.

[419] She looked vindicated.

[420] She looked relieved to know the truth.

[421] I'm about to call him.

[422] Charlotte comes over.

[423] She's crying.

[424] She's just sobbing when I open the door.

[425] She feels so bad.

[426] I'm just hugging her and I'm laughing.

[427] I'm chugging wine from the bottle, like straight out of it.

[428] I'm like, this is fine.

[429] You might have honestly saved my life.

[430] I have no idea what could have happened to me, especially as more information started to come out afterwards.

[431] I mean, I really look back and think, like, in that moment, I was like half laughing about it and half in shock.

[432] But now looking back at it, I'm like, holy shit.

[433] I really could have been stored away in a basement.

[434] It's terrifying.

[435] I take a picture of Sophia's phone where she shows me the Instagram account because I can't see it online.

[436] I messaged Joe and I'm like, you need to call me right now.

[437] And he goes, oh, yeah, why?

[438] Like, I'm just kind of like, you know, getting, I don't know, whatever excuse you gave me, getting ready for bed or something.

[439] It was night at this point.

[440] I just sent him that photo and I was like, you have five minutes before I call your wife.

[441] He calls her at this point and she's just like, what do you have to say now?

[442] Are you ever going to tell me the truth?

[443] And then at that point, she walks out of the house and goes into the yard to talk to him.

[444] So I'm left in the living room, just chugging some wine because I'm freaking out.

[445] And he calls, and I'm like, all right, I know everything.

[446] What do you have to say for yourself?

[447] And he's like, I don't know, I'm scrambling right now.

[448] And then I go, first of all, you can drop the fucking accent.

[449] And he does.

[450] And he goes from this beautiful British accent to this all well, you know, and I just felt my skin crawl and I just oh god it was like one of the worst moments of my life I mean just a totally different voice I remember standing outside and actually feeling this like weird trickle effect from my head to my toes of my skin crawling like all the way from top to bottom of just like as if I shed a layer of skin like it was so weird and it was so extreme I mean the dedication because he woke up with it.

[451] We got drunk all the time.

[452] Never faltered, never floundered.

[453] I mean, he nailed it.

[454] My old roommate, her husband is French.

[455] And they hung out and they were talking about regions in England and France.

[456] And he was totally sold.

[457] Like he thought he was really British and his accent and everything.

[458] And when I had to tell them, he was like, are you kidding me?

[459] I mean, he was good.

[460] He was good.

[461] He did his research.

[462] He even researched how to have the same dry humor and would apparently listen to shows and listen to podcasts to like pick up on their phrases and things like that so that it sounded really legit.

[463] He dropped that accent.

[464] And I was like, okay, I actually know everything now.

[465] I know everything is fake.

[466] The first thing he said was, I will pay you to keep your mouth shut.

[467] And that was a lot to take in because I'm sitting there and I'm thinking this man is really rich, and he's promising me a lot of money.

[468] And I'm like, I can't talk to you.

[469] I didn't say this part.

[470] But in my head, I'm going, I have to get out this phone call, go talk to my friends inside, get my head on straight because my wires are all sorts of cross right now.

[471] And we can talk later or however this is supposed to go.

[472] Because, I mean, what if he's dangerous?

[473] What if he's involved with dangerous shit?

[474] What if the Whitpro thing?

[475] A lot of things I read about witness protection is that like 90 % of people in witness protection are in it because they were actually in the gangs themselves and that they sold information for their protection.

[476] So, like, what if he's involved in dangerous stuff?

[477] He had told me when we first started dating that, like, some of the work he did was in porn and, like, showed me pictures and stuff, like some of the film work he did was in porn.

[478] What if he was a sex trafficker?

[479] What if he was stealing me?

[480] I mean, he showed me photos of these naked women.

[481] Did he get them online?

[482] I don't know.

[483] I'd hang up this phone call.

[484] I go inside.

[485] I talked to the girls.

[486] We're all playing all the scenarios in our head.

[487] We're going over everything.

[488] Fake British accent.

[489] Okay, what else is probably fake?

[490] Well, Whitprose probably fake.

[491] His daughter, probably fake.

[492] His job, probably fake.

[493] It's all probably fake.

[494] How do I deal with this moving forward?

[495] I don't even know what to do.

[496] When she comes back in, she just says on the phone, okay, thank you.

[497] Goodbye.

[498] And she shuts the door and it's like, we're done.

[499] Like, who's done?

[500] You and me or you and Joe?

[501] She's like, no, me and Joe, we're done.

[502] Oh, my God.

[503] Seriously?

[504] Just like that?

[505] She's like, I'm done.

[506] I just can't.

[507] I'm like, oh, my God, thank God.

[508] And after that, of course, was very angry.

[509] Kenzie was doing this angry pacing back and forth.

[510] We all talked to that whole night.

[511] I think we all felt like, wow, someone went to extreme lengths, hearing from Kenzie all the other detail that she had and all the other things she witnessed.

[512] It just made it more crazy.

[513] and terrifying, like, someone like that exists truly in this world and that he has a whole family that thinks probably pretty highly of him and they're not aware of, like, the monster that he is.

[514] And I just think, like, man, like, he impacted Kenzie and he fucked over other people's lives.

[515] His wife, the other sister, the in -laws, his family.

[516] I wonder how much they actually know about him.

[517] It's scary.

[518] They stay that night, and the next day, I am in my hell now waking up to this.

[519] I didn't go to work.

[520] I just took the day off, and I had to process the way my life had completely altered and how everything I thought to be true was a lie.

[521] And I really, really wanted to get answers.

[522] I don't know if I'll ever get real true answers, but I needed to try.

[523] He had admitted to me that I have a substantial following, enough that it worried him.

[524] And he was afraid that I was going to put this on the internet, and it was going to go viral, and it was going to ruin his life, his wife's life, they every his life.

[525] And he wanted to pay me to keep my mouth shut for that very reason.

[526] I knew that he would play nice with me if I was playing nice because he was a little bit afraid of me also.

[527] The next morning, I'm up at whatever, 5 a .m. probably, because sleeping hadn't happened, nor eating.

[528] So we tried the next day, and the whole conversation he had his accent.

[529] It was so weird.

[530] I was like talking to a totally different person, which was probably helpful to my brain because it really allowed me to, like, understand who this was.

[531] And I just started to kind of ask questions.

[532] I was like, your show, like, is it?

[533] it real?

[534] Is it that?

[535] No, that's not real.

[536] You showed me a lot of photos and things.

[537] You showed me articles behind the scenes stuff.

[538] He's like, oh, I got really good at Photoshop.

[539] Like, it's photoshopped, so I faked it.

[540] Okay.

[541] I heard people on the phone that knew about me or talk to me or wish me happy birthday.

[542] He's like, oh, you can fake that stuff.

[543] You can burner phones.

[544] You can hire people on the internet.

[545] It's not that hard to fake.

[546] Okay.

[547] I would say something and be like, yeah, correct.

[548] The main question was why?

[549] Why do you do this?

[550] And he was like, well, I don't really like myself and I'm addicted to being other people.

[551] I am addicted to it.

[552] It is the best high.

[553] When I'm with you, I was a rich British man who was a good father who worked in the film industry and people respected me. I had a beautiful girlfriend.

[554] Like I had the life.

[555] Are you kidding me?

[556] Of course I was addicted to that.

[557] And you are not the first person that I have done this to.

[558] And he didn't say this, but in my assumption, I will not be the last.

[559] He's like, I've done this before.

[560] I have this in writing, actually.

[561] He was like, I have done this to many women before.

[562] And I just get better each time.

[563] And COVID really incubated the whole situation so that it went way further than it had with any of the other relationships.

[564] But yeah, I just, this is what I do.

[565] This is my full -time job.

[566] I was like, you don't have a job.

[567] He was like, I don't have a job.

[568] Oh my God, girl, I'm so sorry.

[569] Like, the blood keeps returning to my fucking body and then it just leaves again.

[570] Like, I am so sorry.

[571] I can't even, like, the chilling way that he's just like, yeah, like, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[572] It's so soulless.

[573] It's so calculated.

[574] It's so calculated.

[575] Yeah.

[576] So I was his full -time job.

[577] When I asked about his job, he told me he didn't have one.

[578] I was his full -time job.

[579] Keeping me was his full -time job.

[580] time job, that he would have gone to any length to keep me. And I have that in writing as well, that the things he would do to keep me surprise even him.

[581] Which again, if I had got taken away, he had gone to these lengths.

[582] Who's to say where he would have stopped?

[583] He would have had me locked in a basement in a cage.

[584] Like, honestly, who knows?

[585] Joe.

[586] Joe had gotten a fake job to trick his wife and tell her that he was, busy working with that job.

[587] And then he was able to actually utilize that fake job in ways to trick me further as well.

[588] And what I found out was that he went out and got educated in business and business investing so that he could tell his wife that he was out doing these business investments and lie to her when he was on the phone with me, constantly talking to me. so that was his cover -up for why he was always on the phone.

[589] Then he used what perks he got from the business investing to have us tour homes and have nice cars and trick me in the ways so that I would believe the things that he was saying as well.

[590] He was really smart about educating himself and then using that education to trick both me and his wife in different ways and have it never really overlap.

[591] app.

[592] And I mean, he was really good at it.

[593] And so that's why neither of us ever questioned anything.

[594] When him and I started dating, he would often bet on sports and do those internet phone gambling things.

[595] And I always told him I didn't like that stuff.

[596] I was like, that is addicting.

[597] You need to stop doing that.

[598] I do not like it.

[599] And probably about a couple of months in, he was like, hey, just so you know, I stop doing this, I'm not doing this anymore.

[600] I'll still have a little play money for sports because I'm wealthy and I can do that, but I'm done gambling.

[601] And I was like, that's really great.

[602] He's like, yeah, I didn't want to get addicted to it.

[603] I listened to what you said, and I was like, I appreciate that.

[604] My theory is that he never stopped doing that.

[605] He just didn't do it in front of me and that he would make pockets of money from that.

[606] And it probably lined perfectly with his story of just investing in businesses and getting little spurts of money here and there.

[607] It made a lot of sense.

[608] So she probably didn't have any question.

[609] When I spoke to him on the phone, what he told me was because he didn't have a job, he had no money.

[610] He lived off of her.

[611] It was all of her money.

[612] He confirmed that he was never rich and he had faked everything.

[613] And everything he bought and supplied me was her money.

[614] I was benefiting off of his wife's money, which is so messed up.

[615] He tells me his wife is part of a very wealthy family that they are willing to pay me off.

[616] She doesn't want to be embarrassed, yada, yada.

[617] I still don't trust the paying off story.

[618] I still don't trust this man. It could sound like I'm blackmailing him.

[619] I don't like how it feels.

[620] I don't like feeling like you're shutting me up, all of it I didn't like.

[621] So I'm still like, look, I'll play nice.

[622] He knows that I have grounds to sue for a couple of reasons because I could have sued him for him pretending to be somebody else and me spending money on him.

[623] He did not live off of me or ask for money for me, but we spent money on his daughter's room and off of things that were fake and didn't exist.

[624] So I could sue him for that.

[625] I was like, look, let's come to a deal.

[626] Here's the receipts.

[627] Pay me back.

[628] I'm going to put all your shit on the porch.

[629] I have a camera out there.

[630] I don't want to be home when you pick it up.

[631] And you can pay me back, leave it somewhere on the porch, and we'll call it even because I'm not trying to start a court case.

[632] I'm not trying to get into legal.

[633] I'm not trying to make you feel blackmailed or all the awful things that can come along with this.

[634] Like, that's not my jam.

[635] I had every opportunity to throw him on the internet and drag him through the mud.

[636] But the way I saw it was is what was going to happen is that he was just going to keep doing this and keep using fake names.

[637] And like, it would go viral and then it would get forgotten.

[638] And then he would go somewhere and use a fake name anyway.

[639] And nobody would know that it was him.

[640] And then my name is stuck to it forever.

[641] Then anyone who looks up me, it's stuck to me forever.

[642] And I didn't want to be stuck to this guy forever.

[643] I told myself, I'm going to tell this story somewhere.

[644] I'm absolutely not going to shut up.

[645] I am totally going to tell this story, which is why I'm not going to sign any of that paperwork or let you pay me off because I'm certainly going to put the information out there.

[646] I'm certainly going to let people know that this happens, that people are capable of this, that you've gone to these lengths to trick somebody, to Photoshop, to have actors, to have burner phones, to have fake cars driving around, to have stories and photos and all sorts of stuff to like the length that you've gone to.

[647] People should know that that exists.

[648] But yeah, I was like, this is where we'll call it even.

[649] It was the weirdest kind of phone call because his response was always just correct.

[650] So Ruth isn't real?

[651] Correct.

[652] So you don't work in the industry?

[653] Correct.

[654] I would ask for details.

[655] I would dive a little bit further in, but it was just like, correct, correct.

[656] That was it.

[657] It was kind of like, you did it.

[658] You figured it out.

[659] Here you are, correct.

[660] And then I would ask for details and he would tell me the details.

[661] I was like, who is the change?

[662] child you've been showing me who is that and he was like well that's my wife's friend's daughter and i just pull all of her photos and things off of the internet and pass them off as my own which is disgusting and terrifying illegal illegal also very fucking illegal illegal illegal right pretty sure that's illegal yeah still pictures of my kids fuck around and find out like yeah for real pretty fucking creepy no it's a no for all of us no yeah i was like oh my god the ruth part was the most heart heartbreaking for me. That was the hardest of all of this.

[663] And if you spoke to anybody in my life, I have had relationships in the past where we had fertility issues.

[664] And being a mom and having that in my life was the most important thing.

[665] So I was so excited to be a stepmom.

[666] And it meant so much to me. And that was the one that hurt the most, where it was like, I wish he had cut it off before we got to that point, before we built her room in my house, before we set things up.

[667] And And like, I wish before that because I couldn't go upstairs in my house after that.

[668] That was it.

[669] I can't go up there anymore.

[670] I rented it out.

[671] I rented it out because I was like, I don't even want to look at it.

[672] Like, it messed with me so hard.

[673] I'm so sorry.

[674] That is so, so cruel.

[675] And did he, I'm just so sorry.

[676] Did he know that about you?

[677] Yes.

[678] He knew it from day one.

[679] And it was something I cried about to him a lot.

[680] And it was something I said was so important to me. And it was why I was so important to me. And it was why I was.

[681] so invested in Ruth, why I was like, here's Christmas gifts for her, here's Easter gifts for her, here's like a card, here's a video.

[682] I wanted so badly to be like the best stepmom in the world.

[683] And I was like so excited to love this little girl.

[684] And he talked about her all the time too.

[685] He would talk about her favorite movie Moana and things she would do when she would color and dance around the house and stories about her and her favorite animals.

[686] And like, I heard about her.

[687] all the time.

[688] I invested in this child for almost two years, everything about her.

[689] And like, his stories were so involved that, for example, when I asked about her room and I was like, hey, what are Ruth's favorite colors?

[690] Instead of him just texting me back, yellow, black and white, whatever, he's texted me back a screenshot of a conversation between he and Ruth's mom where he asked her, what are Ruth's favorite colors?

[691] And she said, let me go ask Ruth.

[692] And she said, Ruth said, in quotes, yellow, but my favorite color scheme is black and white.

[693] And they were like, oh my gosh, this kid.

[694] So they have a whole rapport.

[695] He screenshots that conversation, sends me the screenshot.

[696] And none of it was real.

[697] He used a burner phone to make that fake conversation to quote a child that didn't exist to send the conversation back to me. I mean, the amount of detail that was involved in this was so next level.

[698] It's so sick.

[699] And I'm just sitting here thinking, like, you should be.

[700] able to sue the shit out of this person.

[701] If someone does this to you, if someone puts you through like this level of emotional distress through trickery and lies and manipulation, like psychological warfare, yep, he's just going around and effing going to continue to do this.

[702] Yep.

[703] And that I'm not the first and that I won't be the last, which I have in writing.

[704] I looked into if I could sue because I would have.

[705] Simply to hold him accountable.

[706] Absolutely.

[707] What did they say?

[708] What did you find?

[709] I'd love to know.

[710] You can sue for that in most states, and mine is not one of them.

[711] Unfortunately, our rights are not that great as women.

[712] And you cannot sue for emotional distress without proof of something physical as if he hit me or something, which he never did.

[713] You can only sue for emotional distress with physical proof behind it.

[714] Wow.

[715] I'm asking the why's, which is what you're going to ask after something like this happens.

[716] Why me?

[717] Why is this happening to me?

[718] Why did you do this to me?

[719] and we had one last communication.

[720] Something Was Wrong is an Audio Chuck production, created and hosted by Tiffany Reese.

[721] Our theme song was composed by Glad Rags from their album, Wonder Under.

[722] So what do you think, Chuck, do you approve?

[723] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[724] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music.

[725] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

[726] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[727] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[728] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious.

[729] death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[730] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[731] What happens next?

[732] Depends on who you ask.

[733] Was it a crime of passion?

[734] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[735] This was clearly an intentional act.

[736] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[737] Or a corrupt police.

[738] cover -up.

[739] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[740] Everyone had an opinion.

[741] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[742] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[743] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[744] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery, plus Join Wondery Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.