#2047 - Brian Muraresku

[0] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

[1] The Joe Rogan Experience.

[2] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[3] What's up, Brian?

[4] What's up, man?

[5] Good to see you.

[6] Last time I saw you, we were on another continent.

[7] The European continent.

[8] Yeah, it's fun.

[9] That was exciting.

[10] Thank you very much for that.

[11] You're welcome.

[12] Going to visit the Greek ruins with you is really special.

[13] That was very cool.

[14] Was that your first time seeing, like, the Acropolis and things downtown?

[15] Yes.

[16] It's my first time in Greece.

[17] Yeah.

[18] Yeah.

[19] Mm -hmm.

[20] And the girls, too?

[21] My wife had been, but the girls hadn't been.

[22] It was exciting.

[23] It was fun, man. It's so crazy.

[24] It's just to be there in that place where all this started, just to be on that soil standing there and the place where those people were 2 ,500 years ago.

[25] Very special.

[26] Or longer.

[27] Or longer, yeah.

[28] Yeah, by thousands of years, potentially.

[29] Yeah.

[30] Yeah.

[31] Really exciting stuff.

[32] It's cool, man. What's also interesting, you know, when you're there, how it seems like your work is, it's getting out there.

[33] But it seems like the people that are involved in the day to day, they're like the people that are giving tours and the people that they don't really know.

[34] Yeah.

[35] That's it's still, I think it's still, I wouldn't say it's controversial, but I think it's still a subject of debate, which is the way it should be.

[36] And what we're talking about is the potential.

[37] of the ancient Greeks using psychedelics to find God, which is a big idea.

[38] Well, it seems not just likely.

[39] All the pieces, I mean, it's like, oh, duh.

[40] You know, like if you found a murder weapon in the house where someone was suspected of being a murderer, you go, oh, I guess probably, that's probably what happened.

[41] Like, if you find vessels that contain psychedelic compounds in an area where people experience, these profound rituals.

[42] Right.

[43] Well, they're probably doing drugs, man. Well, at least in Spain they were.

[44] Yeah.

[45] The fact that there were no vessels found in Greece, in mainland Greece, and most especially at the sanctuary in Elusis, I think that leaves healthy room for debate.

[46] I was there like, I was there the week before last at this, at the conference I was preparing back in July.

[47] So we finally had the conference at Elusis because of all the cities in Europe, it was nominated to be the European capital culture for 2023.

[48] So it was postponed from 21 because of the pandemic, and people finally came through town a couple weeks ago.

[49] And the site archaeologist, her name's Papi Papangeli, who was on site when I first was interviewing her for the book back in 2018.

[50] I got to see her again for the first time in five years.

[51] And she's probably spent more time at Alusis than any human being living or dead.

[52] Wow.

[53] Because she's spent like 40 years basically maintaining the site.

[54] And so she used to commute from Athens, from her home to Elusis.

[55] every day for like close to 40 years.

[56] So she's done that pilgrimage more than any person living or dead throughout recorded history.

[57] Wow.

[58] And when she finally saw the evidence, so I gave like a PowerPoint of the things that I talked about here a couple years ago, all the evidence from the book about these ritual vessels that were discovered in the 1990s in Spain and they show pretty clear evidence of ergot inside like a tiny beer chalice.

[59] So something like an ergotized beer, which was the thing that was hypothesized back in the 1970s as the elusive, you know, mystery to these great mysteries.

[60] And so I showed her all the evidence, did my PowerPoint, and Poppy was thoroughly unconvinced that psychedelics had anything to do with the mysteries in elusis.

[61] Interesting.

[62] What's her theory?

[63] Her theory is that it's a modern interpolation that we think that we can't achieve these states of mind in the absence of drugs.

[64] And so when I do ask her, she talks about the long pilgrimage, and she talks about the fasting that would have taken place.

[65] And she talks about, like, the emotional preparation for years in advance of this sort of culminating experience of a lifetime.

[66] So she points to all kinds of different things, maybe some like endogenous, endogously produced ecstatic experience.

[67] But she's just not a fan of the drug hypothesis.

[68] And so the fact that, you know, this forensic evidence for drugs was found in these vessels 2 ,200 years ago, you know, at the place, at the time where it looks like there's a connection to ancient elusis, she's unpersuaded, which I think is very funny and super cool, because I think debate is needed.

[69] Well, it's always good to be healthy in your skepticism, but at a certain point in time, what do you think is going on?

[70] Like, what does she think?

[71] The evidence that connects it to the vessels that were in Spain, does she think that has no connection?

[72] It seems like they're the same people or at least from the same teachings?

[73] I asked her that.

[74] Yes, she believes there was a Greek influence.

[75] So we know that the place where these vessels were found 2200 years ago.

[76] We know that there was a Greek colony called Empodion.

[77] And so we know that there were ancient Greeks who founded a colony not too far from this place.

[78] And the place we're talking about is Pontos.

[79] So it's a town a bit further inland.

[80] So it's undeniable that ancient Greeks were at this ancient colony as far back as It's like 575 BC, by the way.

[81] It's when they established the colony.

[82] And so you have like 400 years from the establishment of this colony until you see this, like, this Hellenistic period where people who were influenced by the Greeks were then reinterpreting what seems to be their idea of the mysteries in honor of Demeter and Persephone, the two goddesses who are worshipped back in Greece, Adelousis.

[83] So that all lines up.

[84] And you see images of what could be like an incense burner that looks like Demeter and Persephone and you find these vases that look like they belong in Athens showing Dionysus and this drunken parade.

[85] And you see what the most interesting to me was this calathos that shows Triptolemus.

[86] And Triptolemus was kind of like the missionary of the ancient mysteries.

[87] And you see images of him in the museum Adelous and they found a near identical image of him at this not too far from this site in Spain.

[88] So, like, all the pieces kind of fit together, but I think that, you know, I can't speak for Poppy, but maybe she sees it as sort of like a renegade group, you know, something that that was.

[89] Because, you know, again, to celebrate the mysteries outside the temple, outside Demeter's temple, Adelousas, was a sacrilege.

[90] We have to keep that in mind.

[91] It doesn't mean that people weren't trying to recreate what was happening there.

[92] And there's this famous incident in Athens in 414 BC called the profanation of the mysteries, where we know that some people at least were trying to recreate what they thought was happening.

[93] in the temple at home in private dining room.

[94] So if that was happening and the mystery was spilling out of this temple, it stands to reason that something was happening in Spain, maybe in southern Italy.

[95] I spent a lot of time looking there too, or maybe across North Africa or the Near East.

[96] So, like, I think it's very possible.

[97] I think, I think what she's looking for is evidence in Greece, Adelousis or thereabouts, which is why I've been spending so much time there of the past couple years.

[98] Well, it seems like even today, rituals and, you know, these psychedelic ceremonies that people do in other countries, when they go to the jungle, there's so much fanfare and there's so much behind it.

[99] There's a lot of secrets.

[100] Like, people contain these secrets.

[101] They talk about these things that they're about to embark on, and they're in control of this experience for these people.

[102] people like they're not going to tell you the exact recipe how they do it you know most of them kind of keep that secret they brew it they bring it to you there's always been like someone who holds like secret information and it kind of makes sense and then you see the exact same thing in america you see these little psychedelic ceremonies you people do outside of the jungle you know and they've brought ayahuasca back and now that they're they get a group of people together in the living room and they burn candles and trip balls together you know That sounds fun.

[103] But it seems very similar to that kind of thing where they would try to reenact it or recreate it somewhere else.

[104] Yeah, I mean, even in the classical period, like so we think elucis goes back to sort of like the Acropolis, right?

[105] So when you're looking at these sites, you're looking at different moments in time.

[106] So you can't look at the Acropolis and not think about the Mycenaean period that goes back to like 1 ,500 BC.

[107] And you can't think about like the classical golden age of Athens in the 5th century BC.

[108] And you can't think about what happened to it thereafter.

[109] after because power changes hands, right, to the Romans in 146 BC.

[110] And then, you know, it goes into the Byzantine Empire in the 5th century A .D. And then it goes to the Ottomans after that.

[111] So, like, there's always been this transfer of power and these sites experience different levels of participation and ritual and mystery.

[112] So when you look at Elusis, you know, as old as it could be, going back, you know, probably to 1 ,500 BC, in the classical period, it was always changing.

[113] So when you talk about secrets, you talk about potions and sacraments, I think they were always, always changing throughout time.

[114] And so maybe the secret recipe in the 5th century BC was different from what it looked like a thousand years before that and a thousand years since.

[115] And so what we do know is that Dionysus, who's this other god of ritual madness and ecstasy in the theater, remember we went to the theater of Dionysus?

[116] You know, he sneaks into the mysteries at some point.

[117] And I think what you begin to see is this like this urge towards what some scholars call.

[118] private, spontaneous, pagan piety, which means that aside from these centralized temples, like the Temple of Demeter, it sits at Elusis, and that's where these rights happen, and it's an utter profanation to celebrate them outside.

[119] What you see with Dionysus coming into these mysteries is this urge towards the celebration of ritual and ceremony outside the temples, privately, and spontaneously.

[120] So, like, the churches, the temples of Dionysus were sort of outside.

[121] They were always celebrated in the forests and the mountains.

[122] and at the southern slope of the Acropolis, which is interesting and urban centers too.

[123] But I think over time you begin to see like this thirst to celebrate these mysteries outside the temples, which is why the evidence in Spain makes so much sense to me. When it comes to indogynously created experiences, have you ever looked into what people experience doing Kundalini yoga?

[124] Yeah.

[125] Have you?

[126] That's pretty interesting.

[127] I practiced yoga for a little time.

[128] Well, I studied Sanskrit.

[129] Oh, really?

[130] Wow.

[131] I studied Sanskrit.

[132] So you can read that stuff?

[133] Yeah.

[134] Have you seen that new AI that's, um, it's translating Cuneiform?

[135] Yeah, yeah.

[136] Isn't that amazing?

[137] I saw a story about that early this year.

[138] Isn't that amazing?

[139] We're getting smarter.

[140] That's, well, not us.

[141] Our successors.

[142] Maybe they'll crack the code.

[143] Oh, they'll definitely crack the code.

[144] I'm sure it'll be easy for them.

[145] Probably.

[146] I mean, if we didn't have the Rosetta Stone, how much would we know about, hieroglyphs in ancient Egyptian writing.

[147] Very little, and that was relatively recently in the grand scheme of history, right?

[148] It's just amazing that one piece of archaeological evidence led to, like, oh, my God, like a jigsaw puzzle, that's the piece.

[149] Yeah.

[150] This is it.

[151] That's what we're looking for here.

[152] We're looking for a little jigsaw.

[153] So with Kundalini yoga, which I think is very, I've not practiced it.

[154] I've only done, like, your bullshit soccer mom yoga.

[155] that counts too i mean i've done some other kind of classes flow classes and classes to music and stuff like that but most of the yoga that has been that beakrum stuff that 90 minute hot yoga it's 20 something poses you do them the same ones every day i really love it but um i know that gives you some sort of strange high it really does like when you leave there like it's not a coincidence that yoga people are all flaky and super peaceful like it's it's a coincidence that yoga people are It really, it does something for you that it just puts you in a very relaxed and unique state.

[156] But Kundalini, as practiced by several people that I know, I've just never done it, is supposedly you can reach states that are very similar to being on psychedelic drugs.

[157] Yeah.

[158] In terms of like absolute visions, geometric patterns that are flowing around you.

[159] But you're not supposed to concentrate on.

[160] that which is interesting like at least according to one of my friends who took it his his instructor was saying that you're you're getting distracted right trying to trying to have these experiences that's not the goal it's decided enough they call them the cities the the powers that arise and it can be everything from visions to supernatural powers and oh supernatural I didn't know about that what have they claimed well when you're traveling outside time in space, the ability to see into the deep past and the far future, the ability to transport your body, to teleport, all kinds of mental telepathy and things like that.

[161] I mean, these aren't, it's not the goal of yoga, obviously.

[162] They call them the Scythis.

[163] But it happens.

[164] Does it though?

[165] Well, it's, of sure.

[166] We have lots of literature that attest to it.

[167] Eight classical Siddhis.

[168] Anima, the ability to reduce one's body to the size of an atom.

[169] That's a superpower.

[170] Yeah.

[171] Mahima, the ability to expand one's body to an infinitely large size.

[172] Legima, the ability to become weightless or lighter than air.

[173] Garima, the ability to become heavy or dense.

[174] And Procte, the ability to realize whatever one desires.

[175] That one seems like a problem.

[176] It's not a superpower you want.

[177] Yeah, that seems like it would be a real problem.

[178] Yeah.

[179] You're the king of the world.

[180] Yeah, it's not a good thing.

[181] Not for some people.

[182] you can handle it I don't know if we're good I don't know if anybody could yeah and that's well that's kind of the whole point is that the you know you're talking what you just talked about is the way the ego gets in the in the what the way it steps into this river right so in all these spiritual practices it's supposed to be about the the deflation yeah the ego and so if if you're going through these spiritual exercises and these praxis and these disciplines and your ego is still very much intact then when the superpower is rise what do you what do you do with them i think that and that that's the dangerous part of any spiritual discipline it's the dangerous part of psychedelics for sure yeah because you get this this dramatic insight into the nature of yourself and maybe the underlying structure of the cosmos and all of a sudden you think you're all knowing right and maybe all powerful well also you sort of espouse that to others who haven't experienced it and there's like the guru thing that happens which i think is really problematic for western people For whatever reason, there's a lot of, especially men in Western culture that get involved in those things and then they become leaders and they're semi -cult leaders.

[183] Yeah.

[184] Someone sent me an article yesterday about this as an interesting title, Chasing the Numinous, Hungry Ghosts in the Shadow of the Psychedelic Renaissance.

[185] It just came out in this journal, Chasing the Numinous.

[186] And this notion of the Hungry Ghosts is it's Breta in Sansa.

[187] here.

[188] Speaking of more Sanskrit, so Preta, these hungry ghosts who are constantly hungry, constantly thirsty, and no matter how much they feed or try and satiate themselves, it's never enough.

[189] And so it's sort of this metaphor for the Western mind and consumerism and extraction and, you know, wouldn't it be a shame if we approached psychedelics, yoga, all these spiritual disciplines with that sort of that broken Western mentality trying to figure out what this can do for me?

[190] Yeah, that's what it is.

[191] What can this do for me?

[192] Um, most psychedelic experiences that I've ever had, one of the key, sort of overwhelming aspects of it is to get out of your own way and that you're in your own way and that you're thinking about yourself and you think of yourself and it's just wasted energy, wasted, and that instead you should be thinking about like the things you're doing and how you're interacting with the world.

[193] And also your ego is just bullshit.

[194] It's just some leftover chimp shit that's designed to keep us alive.

[195] It's designed to make sure that you procreate, make sure that you think very highly of yourself.

[196] So you want to procreate.

[197] But you came to psychedelics later in life, right?

[198] Yes, yeah.

[199] I mean, was that a good thing?

[200] Yeah, probably because I made a lot of mistakes.

[201] And, you know, you learn from that.

[202] Like, you do need mistakes in life.

[203] And you also need to understand what it's like to be very stupid and very foolish and young and brash.

[204] And then also older and more experienced, but still know nothing in terms of, I mean, you really, as much as you know, the smartest person alive knows basically nothing about the nature of the universe.

[205] You know, you might know things on a molecular level, on a cosmic level.

[206] You understand how galaxies are formed.

[207] That's cute.

[208] But you really fucking don't know shit.

[209] You don't know shit.

[210] You haven't seen shit.

[211] There's too much out there.

[212] It's just too big.

[213] It should be, and I think it was forever when we didn't have light pollution.

[214] It was the overwhelming evidence that you're not shit.

[215] You know, if you thought very highly of yourself and you lay on your back and looked up in the cosmos, at best, you could think that you were sent down from God to do his bidding.

[216] But you didn't think you were anything greater than that.

[217] You couldn't.

[218] it's too there's too much evidence the sky is just filled with these fucking enormous nuclear explosions that are happening all over the cosmos it's impossible to even wrap your mind i mean back then they had no real knowledge of the the scope of it all but it's pretty obvious that it's insane that i mean the night skies i'm sure have you seen the night sky in a place where there's absolutely no light you know yes but sadly Like I can count it on two hands.

[219] I can only count on one.

[220] Well, twice.

[221] The second time not as profound, but I went to the Keck Observatory on the Big Island.

[222] And you go, the first time I went, it was quite a while ago.

[223] And when we first drove up there, I was really bummed out because it was so cloudy.

[224] I was like, ah, this sucks.

[225] We're not going to be able to see anything.

[226] But then when we went through the clouds to where the observatory is, there's nothing.

[227] It's just stars.

[228] And you get out and you're like, oh, my God.

[229] It's like being on a spaceship.

[230] It's like you're in a convertible spaceship and you're hurling through the galaxy.

[231] Because what they've done on the Big Island is pretty profound.

[232] They put these lights, the street lights are, you know, a type of light that doesn't expand outward.

[233] What does it call?

[234] What are those lights called, Jamie?

[235] You're a photographer.

[236] Diffused?

[237] Yeah, that's right.

[238] Thank you.

[239] Diffused lighting.

[240] So diffused lighting all throughout the big island.

[241] So it doesn't fuck with the light pollution issue that you get when you're trying to look at the real sky.

[242] So even though there is light from these, you know, streets and all that, it doesn't affect it.

[243] When you're way up there, it's a couple hours drive from the shore.

[244] And you get up there and it's just the one time that I went there.

[245] And this is, I guess this is about 20 years ago, the one time I went there was just like, oh, my God.

[246] Just, oh, my God.

[247] like you can't believe it you can't believe it's so it's so much and it really made me sad because it was like that's what people used to see every night that's what people used to see every night before these jackasses invented electricity Edison you motherfucker what have you done what have you done we don't think of it as anything like that because we just electricity is amazing you can go out at night and go to dinner you can fucking drive your Tesla electricity is amazing but it has made us so ignorant to our place in the cosmos and it's taken away so much wonder because when the sky's just totally dark you look up and you see a star you know way over there or they'll look the moon I could see the moon you just get used to it it's just you don't see enough you don't see enough and then when you actually do you're like oh now I know well you know why would they when the people are starving to death and just struggling hunting and gathering why would they'd be concentrating on constellations of course they would because there's nothing to do at night that's why and it's amazing what do you think you do all night i think i think that that could be the origin of the religious sensibility if you think that when we when we were hunting and gathering you're talking about like 99 % of our history by the way and then when you think about what comes before us i know you think about this a lot yeah i've been fascinated with some conversations i've been having with a friend called Lee Berger.

[248] He's a paleoanthropologist in South Africa.

[249] And it got me thinking about all these archaic hominins.

[250] And one of them is Homo erectus, which I don't know why I'm so fascinated by erectus of all the hominens.

[251] But, you know, it goes back at least probably two million years, which is something to think about.

[252] Homo Habilis comes before erectus.

[253] That could be like 2 .8 million years.

[254] And so erectus probably sheds the body hair of habilis it's bipedal obviously and they probably discover fire and so what that means and by the way they go off and explore the planet which is crazy for a being that old I mean they were potentially the first seafarers really the first seafaring hominens do we know what kind of vessels they used no idea probably rafts if jamie can find it they were heading I mean we have erectus remains from Africa to Europe to Asia so so they I mean, they were on the move, you know, over a million years ago.

[255] And the thing about fire, why I mentioned that, the thing about fire is that if they, whether or not they were cooking their food, they had fire for warmth and light at night.

[256] But it didn't obscure the night sky.

[257] And so it's interesting to think about whether Arectus sat around their campfires a million years ago and told stories, the first stories about the night sky.

[258] They had language?

[259] We don't know if they had language or not.

[260] but they speculate that maybe the beginnings of proto -language would have begun because, I mean, I was joking, but like, what do you do at night?

[261] Right.

[262] What do you do at night?

[263] You know, again, we're so distra - we're not just distracted by light pollution.

[264] We're distracted by a million things when the sun sets.

[265] And that's, again, that's relatively recently.

[266] I mean, even in the Middle Ages, there was nothing to do.

[267] Yeah.

[268] And so, but think about a million years ago.

[269] And so it's possible that around these primordial fires, the very first stories, storytelling, would have emerged around the constellations.

[270] What does Homo erectus look like, Jamie?

[271] Did they have an artist interpretation?

[272] Oh, wow.

[273] So very person -like.

[274] This article says that if they sailed, they probably also had a lingo for it, a sailing lingo to describe probably where they were going or what you were going to see.

[275] And they sort of had the, I mean, the shape of the arm, and the legs and the proportions, very similar to humans.

[276] Yeah, similar, but distinct.

[277] I mean, they were bipedal.

[278] Yeah, but that looks almost like a person.

[279] And that's really old, by the way.

[280] Yeah.

[281] It's at least two million years old.

[282] What, what, 1 .8 million?

[283] So what freaks me out?

[284] I was like, what made them stand up?

[285] You know, like, we're the only ones.

[286] Like, what the hell was that all about?

[287] out.

[288] Yeah.

[289] What was that about?

[290] You do see chimps occasionally walking on their hind legs and you see gorillas doing it as well.

[291] Yeah.

[292] Orangetans, but it's just not normal.

[293] Like what would make someone say this is the only way to go?

[294] I don't need four legs.

[295] They were curious.

[296] Right, but how would that be an evolutionary advantage?

[297] I mean, well, you can you can scavenge a lot better and you can protect yourself from prey a lot better.

[298] And also you can hunt prey a lot better.

[299] And so what they think, I'm not sure if it was a rectus or another one, but they would, they were good at long distance running, so they could, they could wear out potential prey.

[300] So there's an, there's an adapted, there's at least one adapted advantage.

[301] It's persistent hunting, right?

[302] Persistence hunting to, to wear out and chase down prey.

[303] That's a hard way to do it.

[304] That's, yeah, that's, they don't sweat, so you just run them down.

[305] Just run them down.

[306] A lot of things that run really fast, can't run really long.

[307] A lot of them, some of them can, like antelope can.

[308] Good luck running one of those down.

[309] Have you tried?

[310] No, but like the ones that we have in America that we call antelope that I think they're, I want to say they're maybe even in the goat family, because sometimes they call them speed goats.

[311] But those, the antelope that they have in America, the pronghorn antelope, is actually the reason why it's so fast is because at one point in time there was a cheetah here.

[312] And they went extinct, but the antelope survived.

[313] So it has the speed to evade something that, runs insanely fast so these little fuckers can go like 60 miles an hour damn they're amazing I only saw one for the first time um this year that on like actually in the wild where in Utah huh yeah it's really cool we parked the car got out put the pull the magnifying glasses out to check them out just it's an it's a prehistoric creature it really is it's just a remnant of the past it lived with all the other megafauna that went extinct about you know, whatever, was it, 15 ,000 years ago?

[314] 12 ,800.

[315] At least starting then.

[316] Yeah.

[317] So those creatures were like the last of the Mohicans.

[318] Like they had to run super fast.

[319] So they could now like nothing can fuck with them other than humans.

[320] Like at a certain point in time, when they're young, they're very vulnerable, but a certain point in time they get to the boy like, good luck catching me, bitch.

[321] like coyotes and mountain lions like you can't catch that they're too fast yeah i mean they're faster than everything what's the population like in and you not so good yeah not so good um it's good in some places it's good in Wyoming it's good in some places in the west but um they get hammered the babies get hammered by coyotes and it's it's hard for them to to compete you know it's just when your calves and your you know your fauns are getting slaughtered there's not a lot your species can do you know that that that that becomes an issue in areas that have a lot of predators you know that becomes an issue areas that have a lot of bears and areas like areas that have a lot of bear like the moose population just gets hammered because the babies never make it i can most place i think in one of the places in alberta it's more i think it's somewhere in the range of 50 to 60 percent of all baby deer and moose to just get eaten by bears.

[322] Jeez.

[323] Yeah.

[324] You think a lot about death.

[325] Well...

[326] The cycle of life of...

[327] I think a lot about nature and how amazingly fascinating that...

[328] It's so amazingly fascinating to me that we live in this very bizarre, technological sort of raft in the middle of nature.

[329] You know, we live in these cities, these little...

[330] little communities, that we have everything set up for the nature of the human animal in 2023.

[331] But the rest of the, like, you go out in the wild, like, they have no idea that game is being played.

[332] They don't, they're doing the exact same thing they've been doing forever.

[333] And it's things chasing after things and things trying not to get eaten.

[334] And that's every day.

[335] That's all it is.

[336] That's all it is.

[337] And then when things die, there's, you know, raptors come in and, and, and, vultures come in and all these scavengers come in and that's their job that's why the way we treat our dead is so at least we used to think was so unique to homo sapiens and how we treat the notion of of death and burial have we talked about homona lady no we need to talk about homona lady okay jamie i brought some some slides in that i brought some some things i want to show you okay I'll get a cigar.

[338] Yeah, go for it.

[339] This little tiny one suck.

[340] This will be a fun adventure.

[341] Do you see where it is?

[342] It's at like number 16 there?

[343] Homone the lady.

[344] Homone a lady.

[345] That's a cute name.

[346] It sounds like a song.

[347] Doesn't it?

[348] I could have a good beat to it.

[349] What year is homo milady?

[350] There it is.

[351] So it was discovered by Lee in South Africa in the cradle of humankind.

[352] And this goes back.

[353] Well, the discovery is in 2013.

[354] They think that this could be anywhere from 250 to 300 ,000, 335 ,000 years old.

[355] That's what I wanted to show you.

[356] This is where it was discovered.

[357] So you see the Rising Star cave system there in South Africa.

[358] It was found in this cavernous underground labyrinth of networks where Lee found a number of different bodies that had been a apparently left there by this species, Homo and a lady.

[359] And the reason that's interesting is because, again, homo sapiens, to our knowledge, are the only species to have ever intentionally buried they're dead.

[360] So you see things like you see grief and mourning practices in the animal.

[361] You talked about the animal world.

[362] Like when they just die, they're left to rot typically.

[363] Although you see mourning practices in cetaceans, and you see it in elephants and maybe chimpanzees, but no one buries they're dead.

[364] So that was the big bright line that no species had ever crossed, seemingly aside from Homo sapiens.

[365] Although there's also evidence for Neanderthal burial, which goes back potentially a very long time, like over 400 ,000 years.

[366] There's a site in Spain called Sima de los Wesos.

[367] But Neanderthal is very close to us as well.

[368] We have Neanderthal DNA, like in our own genetic makeup.

[369] They're kind of cousins.

[370] So that wasn't really too shocking, the fact that there could be Neanderthal.

[371] burial, but the fact that something that looks like that and is potentially, you know, at least 300 ,000 years ago, but morphologically, it's archaic, kind of like we're talking about erectus, like it's really archaic -looking homona lady.

[372] It's short.

[373] It's about 4 -8 to 5 -2.

[374] It's slender and skinny.

[375] But there are features on it that look, again, like archaic.

[376] It could be at least a million years old, for example, or longer.

[377] So it's strange that being that archaic finds its way into this cave system and deliberately deposits the dead.

[378] So that was like a very controversial idea.

[379] It was so controversial that like Lee didn't know what the bones were doing there because it just didn't make sense.

[380] And by the way, like it's become the richest site for hominid discovery on the continent and maybe maybe anywhere because of because of the profusion of bones.

[381] They found like 1 ,500 different bones.

[382] I think it's close to 2 ,000 now, which is really, really strange in paleoanthropology.

[383] So Lee was digging another site called Gladysvale, not too far from this, for years, years.

[384] And typically what you find are animals.

[385] You find tens or hundreds of thousands of animal bone fragments and a very small percentage of hominids.

[386] So, for example, at that site in Gladysvale, he found a tooth and a pinky bone over the course of like many, many years, which is not unusual.

[387] He comes to this rising star cave system, and all of a sudden there's 1 ,500 bone fragments.

[388] They're able to assemble what they think is like 15 different individuals.

[389] So 15 individual -specific homona -lady are being deposited in that dena -lady chamber, and they don't know why.

[390] And so they begin to look more into it.

[391] I want to show you how difficult it is to get in there, by the way, and why it was so difficult to believe it first.

[392] If you look at the cave chamber there, it was just up there before.

[393] It's on the next one maybe.

[394] Yeah, it's really hard to access that.

[395] You can see, so you enter at the top there, and that this is what homona -lady was doing, potentially.

[396] 300 ,000 years ago.

[397] They found this cave system.

[398] They would descend there on the left, go down into what's called Superman's crawl, which is just 10 inches high.

[399] So they had to go on their bellies, potentially.

[400] And so they think they dragged the bodies through that Superman's claw?

[401] They dragged the dead bodies.

[402] The Superman's crawl is only 10 inches high, and you could drag a body through that?

[403] It gets worse.

[404] So they not only drug it through that crawl there, they went up, dragons back, as you can see there, and then down what's called the shoot.

[405] You see the yellow arrow at the shoot?

[406] So the shoot goes from the top of, dragons back into the Dental Lady chamber.

[407] The chute is like seven or eight inches wide, seven or eight inches, and it goes down like 40 feet from the top of Dragon's Back to Dina Lady.

[408] And inside Dina Lady is where they found at least 15 bodies.

[409] How did they get a body through seven inches?

[410] I mean, we can go there too.

[411] So Lee avoided it for many years.

[412] He was able to actually make it down himself.

[413] There's a great document.

[414] You've got to see the documentary.

[415] It's on Netflix.

[416] It's called Cave of Bones.

[417] If you look up unknown, unknown, colon, cave of bones, you'll find an awesome documentary that charts the discovery and what they call the underground astronauts who managed to get their way through Superman's crawl and dragons back and actually managed to get into the Dinnolady Chamber.

[418] It's like, it's so captivating how they discovered and then root through these bones.

[419] And so, okay, there's a bunch of bones in there.

[420] It's so strange.

[421] that it doesn't make sense at first.

[422] So the working hypotheses are that it was some kind of accident or it was animal predation.

[423] Okay, animals killed these homunelady and animals drug them through that chamber complex into Dina Lady.

[424] That was one.

[425] Or maybe like maybe there was a flash flood or maybe, you know, something happened or like it wasn't like an excursion party gone bad, a bunch of people spulunking and they got trapped in there.

[426] But it turns out that that's not the case.

[427] It's not only not the case.

[428] it seems like they were intentionally buried in these holes.

[429] And so they found pits, which looked like graves.

[430] And again, against all expectations, because only sapiens and maybe Neanderthal does this, this archaic being is deliberately disposing of their dead in ritual fashion inside this chamber, which is super difficult to access in the first place.

[431] It would take you at least 30 or 40 minutes to make you away from the surface.

[432] How would I even get in something that's seven inches wide?

[433] You have to see the footage for how to do it.

[434] You can make your way through it.

[435] I mean, it gets wider at parts, but at very, like, there's sections where it's really, really tight.

[436] And, like, Lee gets stuck at some point.

[437] And so the people who went down are really, really thin, thin people who can navigate.

[438] And, like, professional Spalunkers, for example.

[439] It was that dangerous to access.

[440] It can be done.

[441] And if there's any earthquake activity at all, you're fucked.

[442] Yeah.

[443] It's something else to think about.

[444] You just have to imagine, like, what would motivate them to take this journey in the first place?

[445] That's why I mention it, because it's not just the first discovery of the deliberate burial of the dead by a species that's not us.

[446] They go to great lengths to do this because they, too, were thinking about these cycles of life and death, right?

[447] And so if it wasn't an accident and it wasn't flash flooding and it wasn't animal predation, and this was deliberate burial, ritual, like, why would they do that?

[448] And it seems like, and again, now you're speculating, but it seems like they set up this complex, or they use this naturally existing complex to actually reenact a passage, right?

[449] Some passage from light into darkness.

[450] And sort of like the passage into the underworld, into death itself.

[451] And this has so many resonances with Alusus, by the way, and everything that we saw there and these ancient mystery complexes.

[452] Again, this notion of of spulunking into the underworld and meeting the gods and goddesses of death and really confronting death and mortality in a powerful way.

[453] Like, it's happening in a different species 300 ,000 years ago.

[454] So what else are they bringing into these caves?

[455] It gets crazier.

[456] The documentary is fantastic.

[457] What they also find is fire.

[458] And so I mentioned that Homo erectus probably had fire.

[459] So that's not entirely surprising, but they figured out a way, this species, figured out a way to illuminate the people which is pitch dark, obviously, right?

[460] And so they figured out a way to light fires along the way, we think at least for light, but they were also cooking down there.

[461] They found, speaking, I think they found antelope or spring buck, these tiny bones that were cooked in this fire.

[462] So they were manipulating fire, at least having some sort of like, I don't know if it's a funerary meal or something that could have been related to this ritual complex.

[463] So they're controlling fire.

[464] They're dragging bodies into this pit over different generations, potentially, which makes you think about the possibility of language and how this ritual is communicated from one generation to another.

[465] And the craziest thing is that they also found, just last year when Lee finally made his way into the Dina Lady Chamber, in the ante chamber before that, they found scratch markings, which I think there's some pictures in that file.

[466] Jim.

[467] They found like hash markings.

[468] Just like, so there you go.

[469] So the one on the right is Nalady.

[470] That's, that could be 300 ,000 years old.

[471] The one on the left is Neanderthal.

[472] And you can see like the crazy similarity.

[473] They took a rock and they just etched it into these cave walls.

[474] Homo sapiens does the same thing in Blombos cave, not too far away in South Africa.

[475] That's 80 ,000 years old.

[476] That's only 80 ,000 years old?

[477] That's as, that's as old as we get in South Africa.

[478] Sapiens.

[479] That's 80 ,000 years old.

[480] So the lady's doing something that looks to the untrained eye very similar, potentially 300 ,000 years ago.

[481] So Homo sapiens, when do we first start appearing?

[482] The numbers are always changing.

[483] It could be like 300 ,000, 400 ,000, 400 ,000 years ago.

[484] So Homo Nelady and Homo sapiens existed at the same time.

[485] And so because of what Lee found there, like some of the, some of his critics claimed that actually it was Homo sapiens who were making these markings.

[486] It's so unbelievable that Nalidi is dragging these bodies in there and making these markings and controlling fire and potentially having tools, by the way.

[487] It's so unthinkable that some people, some scholars think that this is the evidence of sapiens finding these caves.

[488] Is it possible, did they interact with each other?

[489] Do we have any understanding of whether or not they interact with each other?

[490] I asked Lee the same questions.

[491] They could have.

[492] We don't have any evidence of sapiens in the area.

[493] So we don't know for sure, but it raises like really, really profound questions.

[494] And this is pure speculation.

[495] But if they did come into contact with another, because we know we have this relationship with Neanderthal.

[496] We interbred.

[497] Yeah.

[498] With Neanderthal.

[499] We have no idea what our relationship with Homona -Ladie was like.

[500] Did we interbreed?

[501] Did we exchange knowledge, communication?

[502] Did they teach us, this pure speculation, did they teach us about death?

[503] That they teach us?

[504] about these burial practices.

[505] Did they even know something that primitive sapiens didn't know?

[506] Did they pass it on to Neanderthal, et cetera, et cetera?

[507] What could they possibly know other than, you know, how to do this?

[508] The mystery.

[509] Yeah.

[510] I mean, why are they doing it?

[511] Right.

[512] Why are they doing it?

[513] Why does no animal do this?

[514] Right.

[515] And, again, like Lee and the team, they can't answer this.

[516] But if you're going to those lengths to bury your dead over successive generations, it raises the big questions that maybe they were asking well before us.

[517] What happens when we die?

[518] Did they believe in an afterlife?

[519] Did they have a concept of God?

[520] Do they have a concept of spirituality?

[521] Did they look at the stars at night and wonder where we came from and how we got here and where we go after death?

[522] And did they have a special insight that death maybe wasn't the ending but the beginning of a new journey back to the stars and to this underworld?

[523] world.

[524] Who knows?

[525] But we see this mythology pop up in our earliest historical societies, which goes back 5 ,000 years.

[526] Think about the book of the dead and the Egyptians or the Tibetan book of the dead or all these classical mysteries I spend all this time researching.

[527] That's the essential questions they're trying to answer is what happens after death.

[528] So to think that a species that precedes us was asking the same questions and developing rituals around it completely upends our notion of what it means to be human because if the way we approach death is not exceptional in the hominin world at least then what is what else does that say about us right and how did that get started who is the first person to take a body and go you know we should really do something with us and why would they do that yeah especially during the time where you're basically spending most of your time trying to eat and avoid predators yeah like that's seems like an immense undertaking to crawl through all that and deposit bodies and you're cooking and lighting fires along the way.

[529] It seems like there had to be some communication.

[530] Right.

[531] So Lee looks at all those data points and says, unabashedly, there's something like a culture here, a non -human culture.

[532] And this could be the first non -human culture we found in paleoanthropology.

[533] It kind of makes sense, though, too, that it shouldn't be just human culture is the first culture like if you if you're experiencing these things that are i mean if you're experiencing what's the the remnants of these things that were there before people it's not like we're just like i got an idea like out of nowhere and we just all the sudden came up with all these ideas i mean they might have been i mean how intelligent do we think this thing was so i mean that's the crazy part so you couldn't really tell from some of the the recreations and what we think they look like but their brain i didn't mention this is the size of an orange it's one -third the size of a homo sapiens brain i kind of buried the lead that's the shocking part of all this is that a being with a brain one -third the size of ours figures out this complex ritual but is that should that still be shocking when we know so much about crows you know crows are very smart like clever They play games.

[534] They know how to solve puzzles.

[535] They know how to drop rocks into a water bottle to raise the level of the water so they can drink it.

[536] They do.

[537] They use tools to extract food.

[538] You ever seen crows make cats start fights with each other?

[539] No. They do it for sport.

[540] Like one crow will, like two cats are on rival rooftops.

[541] And the crow will fly over and just be just close enough to the cat.

[542] The can't can't get them.

[543] And he kind of fucks with him and irritates him.

[544] On purpose.

[545] And then he flies over to the other cat and kind of fucks with him.

[546] And the cat's like, get out of here, man. And so they're both like, they're heightened because they're being fuck with by this crow.

[547] And then he kind of like coaxes these cats into a fight.

[548] And then these cats fight and they fall off the roof.

[549] Watch this shit.

[550] Watch this.

[551] Look at this.

[552] Look at this crow.

[553] Just getting close.

[554] He's like, hey, motherfucker.

[555] What's up?

[556] Hey, bitch.

[557] What's up?

[558] He just gets just close enough.

[559] See, the cat's like, get the fuck out of here, man. Like, he's fucking with him.

[560] And every time the cat tries to move on him, he flies away.

[561] And then the cat just jumps on that other fucking cat.

[562] And they start duking it out.

[563] Like, look, and he's, like, sitting right next to it.

[564] They fall off the roof, and the crow flies down with him.

[565] He's like, yeah, get him.

[566] He's still going.

[567] It's fun for him.

[568] He's having a good time.

[569] Like, there's no evolutionary advantage to doing that.

[570] That's blood sport.

[571] Look, and then they fall down that little, boom.

[572] These cats are just going to war And that crow's like Yeah, get him Kick his ass Weird They're very, very, very smart They've done all these studies where they show that If you give a crow One -size tool It will use that tool to extract a larger tool And it'll use that tool to get the food Like they've done all these weird little mazes And had crows solve them They're very clever Sneaky little fuckers Tiny little brains So we're not exceptional.

[573] Well, how about octopuses are very smart?

[574] What the fuck are they?

[575] You know, they found that there's a poisonous jellyfish that it's very toxic jellyfish.

[576] But even though it doesn't have a brain, it has the ability to learn.

[577] That's something they just recently discovered.

[578] See if you can find that.

[579] It's pretty interesting.

[580] It's like some just fucking weird ass jellyfish that it stings you're fucked.

[581] But this thing has the ability to learn, which is very surprising.

[582] Like, it doesn't even have a brain.

[583] Like, what, okay, so, all right, what's learning then?

[584] Where is memories, are we wrong about where memories are stored?

[585] Scientists provide evidence that tiny Caribbean box jellyfish with lack, which lack a central nervous system, can learn to navigate through mangrove roots.

[586] Yeah.

[587] It's interesting.

[588] That just came out.

[589] Yes.

[590] So, a week ago.

[591] Yeah.

[592] So, what is learning, then?

[593] I mean, is it all, are we silly by thinking it's in the mind?

[594] Is the mind an antenna?

[595] Is there other antenna in the body?

[596] Is it gut feeling a real thing?

[597] You know, you know that expression?

[598] Gut feeling?

[599] Like, why gut?

[600] Like, what is that?

[601] Maybe we focus on the brain too much.

[602] Perhaps.

[603] The organ.

[604] Well, we know if you shut the brain off, the consciousness shuts off too.

[605] So it makes sense that you'd concentrate on that.

[606] thing and it is very big it's very unusual how quickly it grew there's there's a lot of weirdness to the human brain the doubling of the human brain size that's like one of the biggest mysteries ever they don't know what the fuck caused that yeah from erectus to sapiens like we were talking about over a period of two million years yeah yeah yeah double but then you have these small brain creatures in the meantime which are doing exceptional things and so maybe the increase in the brain isn't what we should be focusing on, at least not exclusively.

[607] If brainless jellyfish can learn and a hominid species with an orange brain can develop complex rituals around death.

[608] Yeah, but there's also clearly a correlation between the larger brain and much more ability to manipulate its environment.

[609] I mean, the difference between what a human being, a Homo sapiens capable of, and we're amazed that they drag their body into a hole in the ground.

[610] You know, we build rockets fly to outer space.

[611] It's like a big difference in the weirdness of what the creative mind can achieve in a homo sapien.

[612] Some of us.

[613] Yeah.

[614] Some of us.

[615] Sure.

[616] The brain hasn't done anything for most of them.

[617] Ditch diggers, too.

[618] Someone's got to dig ditches until AI.

[619] And then, you know, that's what's going to be interesting.

[620] Then you said our successors take over?

[621] Our successors.

[622] Yeah.

[623] When President AI solves all the world's problems, we just give in.

[624] I don't know.

[625] I have faith in the human spirit.

[626] I gave a talk about this in Paris a few months ago about artificial versus ancestral intelligence.

[627] And I happen to think that what Homonellady was doing is among some of the most intelligent activity our species can get itself busy with, which is investigating this notion of life and death.

[628] I think that's what makes us human, is asking these big questions and trying to figure out the nature of consciousness.

[629] And this is what all these mystery religions were trying to do.

[630] I think there was more science than religion.

[631] I mean, they're called mystery religions, but this was the process of our ancestors trying to figure out the secrets to the universe in antiquity.

[632] And for the working hypothesis is that psychedelic drugs and altered states of consciousness had some of the secrets.

[633] to do with that ability to probe into into these mysteries.

[634] And I think that, you know, the caves also have a lot to do with it.

[635] Like there were caves constantly being used by, well, predecessor species for sure, but then also ancient societies to enter into these profound states of awareness going back into the womb of the earth to really figure out that border between life and death and maybe navigate it.

[636] Maybe navigate successfully.

[637] This was this was the enterprise of ancient Egypt as being able to successfully navigate into the into the afterlife again which is not a beginning which is not an end but a beginning this is how the mystery religions always talk about about death and befriending death and confronting all mortality like I'm not sure if AI will be able to to plumb those secrets the way that we've been doing for all these thousands of years that's interesting I don't think well why wouldn't it be able to I mean it What it's essentially doing, well, all human beings, everyone that is listening to this and everyone who isn't, you're essentially riding on the work of the people that came before you.

[638] We're all speaking a language that other people invented.

[639] We're using mathematics that other people invented.

[640] We live in structures that other people invented.

[641] There's been just this massive sea of human beings before us.

[642] that have innovated and created.

[643] But if AI can have access to everything they've ever learned and everything they've ever done and have an understanding of biology and of subatomic science at a level that the average human beings just not capable of, maybe it could understand a pattern that we've missed.

[644] Maybe it can understand a code that we've missed, that this whole thing, is like there's some sort of an underlying code to the entire universe and that it all works together.

[645] And you're experiencing it as a human being, riding the subway, driving in your car, going to work.

[646] You're experiencing this very minute realm of this overall experience that is all working together through this code that's creating everything.

[647] I think AI could figure that out.

[648] I think we're very limited because we're talking about our own experience and we're talking about our own biological mortality.

[649] So we have this window of time to sort things out.

[650] You know, like, what does that quote?

[651] Enlightenment is possible within your lifetime?

[652] We have this very small window.

[653] It's 100 years, if you're lucky.

[654] And during that 100 year period, you're asked a lot with this primitive monkey mind to try to figure things out.

[655] But if you didn't have that, if you didn't have that, if you didn't have that, thing looming over you maybe you'd have a more objective assessment of what's actually going on but what this species is actually doing mm -hmm like what it's here for hmm what is the what's your what's your takeaway on our biological mortality and what we're doing here in light of your most profound DMT experiences oh yeah I would be just guessing and talking shit yeah I don't know I mean for us in our experience, I think the best thing you can do is spread as much positivity as possible in every way you can.

[656] Be as charitable as possible.

[657] Be as nice as possible.

[658] Spread as much positivity as possible.

[659] That seems to be like a valuable lesson that I get from all those experiences.

[660] But again, everything we're doing is based on the biological limitations of our consciousness and our life experiences.

[661] Everything we're doing is based on like who we are and who we think we are and what what meaning it has for us that we're here right now.

[662] But if you didn't, you weren't burdened down by all these biological limitations.

[663] If you were burdened by this existential angst and this fear of death and this, we have this desire to figure it out, like to have like, oh, this is what's going to happen.

[664] We have this like this desire to have an answer to almost the, unanswerable.

[665] What if AI didn't have those problems?

[666] It's not going to have those problems.

[667] It's just going to have information.

[668] It's just going to have just pure information with no ego, no desire to survive, no greed, no desire to reproduce, no envy.

[669] It's going to be a fascinating thing once it does happen, because it might be able to quickly figure out a lot of things that we've been burdened by.

[670] But we're looking at these things through the limitations of our biological experience and through the ego, which tells us that this biological experience is uniquely important.

[671] Everyone thinks that they are uniquely important.

[672] But yet there's all evidence that you're not.

[673] You're a part of this very bizarre thing.

[674] But this very bizarre thing as it interacts with each other is very psychedelic.

[675] Like if you weren't a human and you didn't, and you had no idea what human life is and you were some other kind of consciousness and you took a drug and the drug led you to experience human life in a big city you'd be like this is crazy what a drug if you just saw the lights going back and forth on a highway and how similar they looked to like blood flowing through arteries and you see these things that are getting constructed it's like these growths on the earth that this being is creating like what is this fucking wild species doing you know i think we would have a more objective sense of it i've said this too many times we'll say it one more time i think we're here to make things i think our curiosity is all about innovation that's the the primary function that this species has if you looked at it from afar you'd say well what is this thing doing oh it's making better stuff every year it always does that no matter what it does it makes unless it nukes itself into the stone age which is always a threat because the better stuff that it makes is often weapons.

[676] And it often gets better at making money by utilizing those weapons.

[677] So it keeps doing that, which is what you're seeing all over the world right now.

[678] But I think if you looked at like the one thing it's doing, it's making better things.

[679] And it's so wrapped up in buying those better things.

[680] Materialism is so rampant.

[681] And everybody, despite what you have being more than enough, you want more and better in new things.

[682] And that fuels consumerism.

[683] And consumerism fuels more innovation.

[684] and it's like baked into the mentality.

[685] Sort of like, I don't know if bees know exactly what they're doing when they're making a beehive, but they all make beehives.

[686] You know, they're all doing that same thing.

[687] And human beings, what we're doing is we're at least working towards buying these things that someone's making.

[688] Don't you think human creativity is what makes us uniquely human on top of all that, our ability to fashion things from nothing, to create music and beauty and art?

[689] Look at those scratch marks from 300 ,000 years ago.

[690] And then you go into the painted caves 30 ,000 years ago.

[691] And then you follow the production of art throughout our species, you know?

[692] I feel like that's the kind of thing that AI won't be able to resolve for us.

[693] Perhaps.

[694] The process of what it means to engage in a creative act and to produce something that the whole species can resonate with.

[695] Well, the question would be, why would it want to?

[696] do that.

[697] You know, if it doesn't have those kind of feelings that you have when you hear a great song or see a great painting, like why would it want to do that, right?

[698] And why do we want to do that?

[699] Why do it for each other?

[700] Well, you talk about creativity, and I think creativity is the fuel of innovation.

[701] All things that we use today, whether it's a cell phone or a laptop or whatever it is, all of those things came out of the imagination.

[702] All those things came out of someone's mind.

[703] And I've I always wondered, I wonder if ideas are life forms, like a type of life form, like a thing, an energy that manifests itself in the creation of actual physical objects, and that it gets into your mind and it interacts with your being and it talks you into making a coffee pot.

[704] I mean, doesn't it make sense?

[705] All these things that we have, everything in this room, came out of someone's mind, everything.

[706] See, that's where I think we have at the edge on AI.

[707] And I think that we don't understand the genius, the divine genius of where that creativity comes from.

[708] I collect different quotes from, like, musicians, talking about the creative process.

[709] Jamie, I sent you a couple.

[710] In the email, there's one from John Furchante.

[711] He's the guitarist for Red Hot Chili Peppers.

[712] Like, I love listening to musicians talk about where music comes from and where inspiration comes from.

[713] Because I think it's like it's one lens that we can use to think about the creative act in general.

[714] Like it may start with music.

[715] It goes to everything that's here.

[716] It goes to the art of a conversation.

[717] It goes to comedy.

[718] It goes to the way we make children, by the way, which is a very creative act and something that comes naturally to most of us.

[719] Like, I think that's what makes us human is that this ability to translate something that extends beyond our physical bodies and then to embody it, whatever that it is.

[720] Frusanti calls it the force.

[721] And then to make something of it.

[722] something that can resonate with the community.

[723] I think that's something that AI will be able to do and fits and starts, but I'm not sure that we understand the process.

[724] And that's why I think about the process of life and death, too.

[725] That's why I think the thing that makes us human is the way that we engage with those invisible forces.

[726] Yeah.

[727] The way we engage with those invisible forces.

[728] Yeah, that mean, that's what's unique about humans for sure on Earth.

[729] Jamie, do you have that quote from James?

[730] John?

[731] Yeah.

[732] What is the quote?

[733] It's saying it.

[734] It's a video.

[735] I don't know if you wanted to read it or play it or what.

[736] Yeah, you can play it.

[737] It's expressing itself through our existence.

[738] I don't believe that a musical idea starts in your brain.

[739] I believe it starts at a place before that that we don't have any direct contact with.

[740] And I believe that everything that we do, everything that we create is nature expressing itself the same way that when a flower grows out of the ground or a tree grows out of the ground, it's nature expressing itself.

[741] And you might say that the tree is expressing itself by the way its branches move out, but it's the force that drives nature.

[742] The tree is the visible thing that appears to our senses, but I don't at all believe it's the source of why everything is perpetuated all the time, you know?

[743] Force that created us.

[744] Hmm.

[745] That makes sense.

[746] Yeah.

[747] Well, most comedians will tell you that jokes come to them like a gift.

[748] Like your mind just like a door opens up and like, here it is.

[749] and you're like oh wow oh my god what a great idea like these ideas just pop in your head you see and sometimes you see things and you describe them and you like mm -hmm and you the idea will come from that but sometimes ideas just come to you they don't you don't even feel like you don't feel responsible for them because it's not like you dug a hole like this is the hole i dug you do right you sit down right right you do the physical act of summoning the muse which is how Pressfield talks about it in the War of Art, which is a great way to, because it is that whether or not the muse is real, if you treat it as if it's real, it will show up.

[750] Like if you show up every day and you write, you say, I'm from 9 a .m. to noon every day I sit in front of my computer and I write.

[751] If you do that, the ideas will come.

[752] They will come to you.

[753] That's crazy.

[754] Well, where are they coming from?

[755] Where is that?

[756] Yeah, what is that thing?

[757] Do you think AI can figure that out?

[758] I don't think, I'm not sure if we can figure that out.

[759] I don't know.

[760] It's a good question.

[761] It's a good question.

[762] Like, what is the unique inspiration for ideas in our desire to pursue them?

[763] Like, what is it?

[764] I think that's part of what makes us innovate.

[765] And that's part of, like, what, you know, if you were looking at us from afar, you go, what is this species doing?

[766] It's making things.

[767] And how do you make things without creativity?

[768] You don't.

[769] You wouldn't.

[770] You would have no desire to.

[771] So there's the question about AI.

[772] It's like, can you program that desire to innovate?

[773] into a thing without all of the primate characteristics that we possess.

[774] We seem to have this innate ability to do it in a way that we know will resonate with people.

[775] Have you ever, like, have you ever read AI jokes?

[776] Yeah, they're not inspired.

[777] But they're really young.

[778] It's like a joke from a five -year -old.

[779] Five -year -old tells you a joke.

[780] It's like, my daughter's really young.

[781] One of our favorite jokes was.

[782] What kind of tree grows in your hand?

[783] I go, I don't know.

[784] She goes, a palm.

[785] tree and she'd have this big long punch line a palm tree when you're five it's hilarious and I thought it was really funny I'm like that's a solid joke but like that's a five -year -old joke if you try to do that on stage at the mothership on a Saturday night they'd be like really you know that's kind of my point man yeah so where do your jokes come from but AI is young is what I'm saying is AI is a five -year -old telling jokes when AI becomes a Ph .D. from Princeton, you're going to be dealing with a very different thing.

[786] You know, as AI becomes I just can't imagine that the, whatever it is that makes creativity, because creativity is absolutely inspired by our predecessors as well.

[787] There's a lot of, I could speak to comedy, there's a lot of styles of comedy that you go, oh, that guy's clearly a Richard Pryor fan.

[788] Or that That guy is, you know, he's definitely been influenced by Kinnison.

[789] He's definitely been influenced by Jerry Seinfeld.

[790] There's something that we carry with us from the people.

[791] And you see it in music as well.

[792] You know, Stevie Ray Vaughn, clearly influenced by Hendricks.

[793] So you see this as well.

[794] But it's just, couldn't it just do that?

[795] Couldn't it just absorb all these patterns and then come up with unique patterns that it knows will resonate with people?

[796] I think you could probably create some fucking jamming pop songs that are just entirely AI created and you could use all the best voices because you would just be able to voice swap them that you could have you doing them you could be singing the next Lizzo song you know it can do weird things now and some of those weird things are going to resonate with people and become very successful and then it'll figure out what those things are okay so this Drake song that I made is this got you know four million listens on Spotify so now we'll do this and now we'll make one like that and now I'll add this and now I'll do something that people have never figured out before and do that so it might be able to do the same thing it create creativity is capable of accomplishing but it won't be done with the same sort of spirit and soul so it won't be able to resonate with us the same way as say like a Janice Joplin song.

[797] There's like there's something to like Coulter Wall's voice.

[798] There's certain people that they have a thing in them.

[799] Like you can't, you can't fake that, whatever fuck that is.

[800] There's a word for that.

[801] They call it Frisson.

[802] Have you heard of that?

[803] No. Frisson, it's the term when you get like goosebumps from music or when music affects you in such a way.

[804] I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think humans at the moment are much better at producing that effect than AI.

[805] Oh, for sure.

[806] Do you know who Coulter Wall is?

[807] Jamie, play Kate McCannan.

[808] There's this song.

[809] Jamie turned me out to this song.

[810] And this dude is singing, he wrote and singing the song when he was 21 years old.

[811] And you listen, you go, what the fuck?

[812] It's very rare that I'll listen to a song and just go, what the fuck?

[813] But listen to this.

[814] Okay.

[815] And he floats outside my prison window Marking those within And he sings to me real low It's hell to where you go For you did murder Kate McCannan 21 This sounds like a 50 -year -old rancher 60 even 60, even.

[816] This is the music video that goes along with it.

[817] He said he had himself a dark -haired daughter, long dream.

[818] She and I didn't meet.

[819] She was bathing in the tree.

[820] Prettyest girl in the whole damn holler.

[821] Good luck, AI.

[822] You ain't going to make this.

[823] You never think of this.

[824] That's the point.

[825] Yeah, it's not going to think.

[826] But why is this, is this special to us?

[827] So what we are is special to us because we are us.

[828] But it'll be the next thing.

[829] We have this knack for producing things that we know will resonate.

[830] With us.

[831] With our species.

[832] And what do those things do?

[833] They motivate movement.

[834] They motivate creativity.

[835] creativity, they inspire you, they fuel you, they're a strange drug.

[836] It's an audible drug, an audio drug.

[837] Great music is certainly a drug.

[838] You and I got to see Guns and Roses live, which is pretty fucking dope, right?

[839] That was pretty dope in Athens.

[840] Have you told that story?

[841] I think I did, yeah, I think I did, yeah.

[842] You came back to the table.

[843] I went to the bathroom.

[844] Yeah, and you came back and you said, oh, my God, Axel Rose is here.

[845] Yeah.

[846] And I was like, whoa, where is he at?

[847] And you're like, he's right over there.

[848] So you had to walk by him.

[849] You know, I tried to talk to him, right?

[850] Yeah, you tried to say hi.

[851] It didn't go so well.

[852] I saw him, when I left to the bathroom, out of the corner of my eye, I saw him with a woman.

[853] And I thought, oh, that's Axel.

[854] And I went to the bathroom, and I'd had a margarita and a glass of wine.

[855] because peer pressure me into drinking over dinner.

[856] Oh, peer pressure is my fault.

[857] Look how I'm responsible for you.

[858] You're a grown man, sir.

[859] So I made the choice to have a glass of wine with dinner.

[860] And so I was feeling pretty good.

[861] And so I saw him at the table.

[862] So on the way back, I'm thinking I can't not say hi.

[863] And so, like, in my mind, I have, like, a tuxedo and slicked hair and a martini asking if, excuse me, Axel, we need to chat.

[864] But I think, like, it's not impossible that I said Mr. Rose, like, excuse me. Mr. Rose, and the woman there was like, just, I mean, she's just like, she didn't even say anything.

[865] She just waved, waves me away.

[866] And I thought, okay, I mean, I would do the same thing if I were Axel.

[867] And so I went back to the table, deject it, and let you know that Axel was still sitting there.

[868] Yes.

[869] And then my dilemma was, do I say hi?

[870] Because I'm like, I don't know if he knows me. I don't know if he knows who I am.

[871] I don't want to be an idiot I don't want hi Axel I'm like to fuck out of here I tried that Especially if it's like my first time Meeting Axel Rose I've been a fan of his for so long You gotta think I used to Work out to Welcome to the Jungle In the 80s So that guy's been famous Since I was like 21 years old 22 when When did Welcome to the Jungle come out Appetite for Destruction Yeah when does that 87 or was it i think it was 87 i remember very clearly being in the gym the first time i heard it i was lifting weights at this place and uh welcome to the jungle i was like oh my god what a fucking song 87 yeah that makes sense i remember um standing on the pool table of my neighbor uh ryan down the street and playing with wiffle ball bats and air guitaring welcome to the jungle when i was eight so luckily he knew who i He actually knew my comedy.

[872] He was asking me questions about some jokes, and I loved this bit.

[873] And I was like, oh, God.

[874] Thank God.

[875] Because you went in with confidence, by the way.

[876] You forget that part, dude.

[877] We walked in, and, like, I did the wrong thing.

[878] And you walked in with total confidence, and you stuck your arm into the booth and said hi.

[879] Like, you didn't give him a chance not to say hi.

[880] I did.

[881] Is that what I did?

[882] You were very...

[883] I was drunk, too.

[884] I just got lucky he knew what he was.

[885] It was full confidence with the Joe Rogan tattoos.

[886] You went right into his face and said, hey, man, hey man. And, like, he stopped for a second because it was odd.

[887] And he's like, oh, hey, man. Yeah.

[888] He knew you immediately.

[889] Oh, what a relief that was.

[890] Because you don't know.

[891] You don't know if someone fucks with you.

[892] You know, it's weird.

[893] It's weird to, like, assume that this very famous person knows who you are.

[894] He was super cool.

[895] He was very cool.

[896] And he asked what you were doing there.

[897] Yeah.

[898] And you said, I'm here with my family.

[899] And he said, oh, this is your family pointing to me. And he's like, no, this is Brian.

[900] And you're very nice.

[901] He wrote this thing.

[902] He's a writer.

[903] And he told him the hypothesis.

[904] And Axel, like, he gave me the best t -shirt for the book.

[905] He's like, okay, cool.

[906] So everybody got high and made democracy.

[907] Pretty much.

[908] It's pretty much what you think, Axel.

[909] Pretty much.

[910] Yeah, and then he invited us to the show, which was super dope.

[911] But, you know, that, what I was getting to is, like, when you hear, like, welcome to the jungle, your whole body goes, wow.

[912] It's like a drug.

[913] It's a drug that human beings have invented for ourselves.

[914] There's something about music that it's like music.

[915] When you're tired, like say if you're on a treadmill or something, you're tired and a good song comes on.

[916] You're like, fuck, yeah.

[917] It gives you an extra gear.

[918] Inspiration through music is very much like a performance enhancing drug.

[919] It does something to you.

[920] It motivates people to dance.

[921] You know, when someone hears a good song, like fuck that.

[922] Let's get on the dance floor.

[923] It's like music like does something to.

[924] to you, your being.

[925] It interfaces with whatever the fuck you are in some very, very special way.

[926] But it only does it to us.

[927] Like, why would the universe think that that's interesting?

[928] Like, does it?

[929] Don't animals dance to human music?

[930] There must be videos of animals dancing to human music.

[931] There's definitely some videos of dogs dancing, but I've always wondered if they've been trained to dance.

[932] Why does that make you smile?

[933] Because it's cool.

[934] It's cool to see dogs dance.

[935] I wish my dog could dance.

[936] but they you know but animals are so especially dogs in particular they're so tuned in to people in some weird way like my dog understands English like I could say yeah I should have brought him today but everyone was at the house and he was having fun there's a deer in our backyard there's a lot of drama today there was a deer with a broken leg in my backyard oh man yeah yeah some poor little buck a little young buck and I was it was in the morning like 7 o 'clock in morning everyone's getting ready to go to school i made a cup of coffee i uh i let the dog back in and he hadn't seen it so he's like chilling on the back porch and uh i let him in and i look over there it looks like a fucking statue it's a buck just standing there i mean like 40 feet from me and i'm like why is there a deer there and then i close the door girls girls girls come here check this out and then i look at the way he's standing oh his back legs broken he's got his shin is fractured his like where your shin would be it's bending back the wrong way it's broken and so called animal protection and they didn't know what to do and so we're literally trying to find him an animal veterinarian to fix this deer's leg which is just so crazy because I shoot deers and I eat them but do you feel bad for this one but that one it's like he's first he's very young I would never shoot him he's a little young fella he's just it looks like a yearling like he's just got his horns for the first time and he's like really confused and he's hurt and he can't and he's in my yard because i guess he's like safer there and so the dog finally does find him and when the dog finds him he's just like kind of jumping around him and bouncing and like you want to play like and the deer can't run so he's just standing there going hey me you got to eat me like what's going on here and it was it was very interesting but he know like my dog and he said come on man cut the shit get inside and he goes inside Or I can say, don't go out this door.

[937] I'm going to go to the other door.

[938] Okay, he just goes to the other door.

[939] Like, I can say things like that.

[940] Like, he knows.

[941] I can say, not that door, dude, the other one.

[942] And he'll start going towards the other door.

[943] It's very weird.

[944] I can say, you want to watch TV?

[945] And he goes into the TV room.

[946] And, like, he waits for me to plop up on the couch, then he hops up next to me. Like, he speaks English, or he knows English.

[947] He just can't talk.

[948] It's a golden?

[949] Yeah.

[950] Yeah.

[951] So animals, whatever the intelligence that they have, like, whatever the fuck they're tuning into, it's a comprehension of language I think beyond just like saying words that they respond to like you want to go for a walk when the dog pops up they're just recognizing the word walk I think they understand like speech they understand tone they understand what you mean they understand when you're in trouble they're in trouble did you do you fucking shit on the carpet dude you know like oh did I they know things but they don't seem to give a fuck about music you know dogs don't they won't they won't calm down if you play calming music supposedly they do and unfortunately now that's in my fucking YouTube algorithm because he was freaked out because of the thunderstorms that were happening he was like and so my wife said oh there's this music that you can play for the dog and it calms them so there's YouTube channels so now every time I turn on my YouTube app I get calming dog songs I don't even know if they were How does anybody know if they work?

[952] Ask your dog.

[953] He's not going to answer.

[954] That's the problem.

[955] But the act of moving the body to music is uniquely human.

[956] Yeah.

[957] I mean, what other animals dance to music?

[958] Let's find out.

[959] Chimpanzees don't?

[960] I don't think so.

[961] Boy, they're smart as shit, though.

[962] They're spooky smart.

[963] When you watch them solve puzzles for candy, you know, they gave chimps money.

[964] They taught them that if they take this money, this thing, these tokens, and give it to this person or put it in this thing, they would give them candy.

[965] You know, the first thing they did was?

[966] They gave it to the female chimps, and they had sex with them.

[967] They, like, immediately engaged in prostitution.

[968] Where do you find this stuff?

[969] Oh, that's old.

[970] That's an old study.

[971] That's from a long time ago.

[972] I've just been always fascinated by chimpanzees.

[973] I mean, they're one of the most bizarre relatives to us that's still around.

[974] You've seen Chimp Nation?

[975] Yeah.

[976] And that's amazing, right?

[977] Like, God, it's so fascinating.

[978] Yeah.

[979] But I don't think they dance.

[980] Do you think they do?

[981] I think they have rhythm.

[982] Yeah?

[983] They move around?

[984] There's videos of them doing some ritual.

[985] Oh.

[986] Ritual.

[987] Some rhythm.

[988] So what is this?

[989] Look at these breakdancing.

[990] That's dancing, man. That's dancing.

[991] Is that what he's doing?

[992] Is there a music playing?

[993] But is that real?

[994] Is that the real music?

[995] That seems like that's added out to the fact.

[996] Yeah, he's doing fast steps.

[997] Look how long his arms are.

[998] Isn't that crazy?

[999] It's just crazy that we come from the same original route.

[1000] It branched in a bunch of different ways.

[1001] Seven million years ago.

[1002] That's what's fascinating is that they're still here.

[1003] They're still here in that form, which is the dumbest anti -evolution question ever.

[1004] If we came from monkeys, why are monkeys still here?

[1005] it's a good question well why are amoeba still here sir you know why is anything still here why are we still here yeah well but some things can function in the state they are and they don't need to adapt that's why crocodiles are they've been the same forever you know sharks existed before trees sharks predate trees sharks are so old they've been along for so I think they're 50 million years older than trees but trees are pretty old to begin with Mm -hmm.

[1006] Yeah.

[1007] I think sharks are somewhere in the neighborhood of, like, 300 -something million years old, and trees are 50 million years less.

[1008] What is it?

[1009] Yeah, there it is.

[1010] Sharks have been swimming our oceans much longer than trees have been swaying in the breeze on land.

[1011] The birth of trees on Earth is believed to have occurred roughly 370, 390 million years ago that makes sharks at least 10 million years old than trees.

[1012] Oh, so I was off by 40 million.

[1013] But, yeah, older than trees.

[1014] You missed your calling as an evolutionary biologist.

[1015] Not really.

[1016] No. No, I just like interesting information.

[1017] But especially about things like that, you know, like sharks, the cleanup crew of the ocean.

[1018] That's a, like, how do you manage a just vast, literal sea of life that moves in 3D space?

[1019] It just moves all over the place and things are going to die and what happens to them, sharks, this massive beast that has to keep moving or it dies.

[1020] and it's so old and it's designed just for killing and eating and it has rows of replaceable teeth and the only bones that it has at all are this massive jawbone and these ridiculous razor -sharp saws that just slice things in half and it just roams the ocean looking to consume have ever had a shark encounter I've had sharks bite fish off my line I've never had a shark encounter and I was like, Jesus is a shark.

[1021] No. Have I seen them in the wild?

[1022] I do not know.

[1023] I don't think I have.

[1024] I don't think I've seen a shark like swimming through the water.

[1025] I've seen a lot of dolphins.

[1026] A lot of whales.

[1027] I don't think I've ever had a physical encounter with a shark.

[1028] Have you dreamed about sharks?

[1029] Not really.

[1030] What do you have a psychology?

[1031] What the fuck is going?

[1032] The guy's a shrink now.

[1033] What happened?

[1034] Where'd regular Brian go?

[1035] I'm curious about your mind.

[1036] I dream about wolves.

[1037] Oh, I'm getting somewhere with this.

[1038] Yeah, I dream about wolves a lot.

[1039] Really?

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] What do you dream about?

[1042] Running from wolves.

[1043] You're running from wolves?

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] Why are wolves chasing you?

[1046] I think wolves chased people a lot.

[1047] I think some people got away, and I think that genetic memory gets imparted in some folks.

[1048] I have a high percentage of Neanderthal DNA.

[1049] Do you know that?

[1050] 23 and me?

[1051] Yeah.

[1052] 57 % more than regular people.

[1053] Wow.

[1054] Yeah.

[1055] So you were chased by lots of wolves.

[1056] I think ancient people, I think most ancient people.

[1057] That's what the big bad wolf and through like Little Red Riding Hood, all those ancient stories of wolves were all because they were killing people.

[1058] Like wolves, wolves have always preyed on human beings.

[1059] It's always been a part of human existence until we eradicated them and now we're bringing them back, which is to me wild.

[1060] Like, have you guys thought this through?

[1061] Like, this is a reason why we were so scared of them forever.

[1062] But then we forgot what it's like to be scared of them.

[1063] I'm like, oh, well, if they did get too many, we'll just kill them again.

[1064] No, you won't.

[1065] How do we domesticate them in the first place?

[1066] You don't domesticate wolves.

[1067] How did it happen?

[1068] Where do dogs come from?

[1069] Bitch -ass wolves.

[1070] That's what it is.

[1071] Bitch -ass wolves that were willing to come near us in the fire, and then we give them a little food, and then they realize that they could be our friend.

[1072] They can get food.

[1073] They don't have to hunt.

[1074] And then we use them to protect the outer prer.

[1075] perimeter and to keep bears out and things like that and cats away from people and that if the wolves stayed close things didn't want to get near the wolves and so they would avoid us and as long as we kept that kind of a relationship you know they've done these studies with foxes where they've had wild foxes and in a small period of time every time they had an aggressive fox at all they killed that fox and they kept these domesticated foxes and over time their ears flop their eyes got bigger They became more appealing to us, more submissive.

[1076] They basically became dogs over a very short period of time.

[1077] See, we find that Fox study.

[1078] It's very interesting.

[1079] That's probably what happened with wolves.

[1080] I think the wolves that realize, like, hey, you know, it's hard out there, you know, running a pack and being an alpha and getting cast out.

[1081] And, like, maybe I could just get near these other things and I could get a little bit of their leftovers.

[1082] Like, if they do really well, like, maybe they get a buffalo or something.

[1083] like that.

[1084] They kill a bison.

[1085] That's a large animal.

[1086] They're not going to be able to eat it all.

[1087] They're going to leave like a little bit for me. And they're probably not going to eat the bones and wolves crush bones.

[1088] And so like maybe they sort of develop this sort of relationship.

[1089] Because wolves are very curious of people too.

[1090] And they come near people and they're fascinated by people.

[1091] But the problem is when they want to eat you.

[1092] And that does happen.

[1093] And it's always happened.

[1094] It's always happened throughout history.

[1095] In fact, in World War I, there was actually a season.

[1096] fire between the Russians and the Germans because so many of them were getting killed by wolves that they decided to stop shooting each other and kill the wolves and then go back to killing each other you ever heard about that one yeah well because it's trench warfare right yeah so people are getting shot and you know when you're getting shot you're you're dying in this trench and sometimes these guys would just get overwhelmed by wolves like wolves would find in there and just tear them apart so imagine you're you know you're in trench warfare in World War I and you're hearing in the middle of the night people screaming and you're just getting torn apart by wolves they would send out parties and like search parties and you know they would find no one would come back and then they would go out and they'd find a boot with a human foot in it and what the fuck and they realized oh my god these wolves are killing people and they were in large packs because they were feeding on the bodies from the war you know the war back then is just unbelievably brutal it's very close range you know you're not you're not dealing with you know long distance missiles you're dealing with people like literally creeping up on each other and shooting each other with rifles it's horrible horrible shit and they're not that good at killing people so a lot of times it kills you slow and so these people are dying in these trenches and getting eaten by wolves and the wolves decide they're a primary food source And why would I chase caribou and reindeer when I can just eat people?

[1097] This explains your strange dreams.

[1098] Yeah.

[1099] Well, I think human beings have always been afraid of monsters, right?

[1100] What is that?

[1101] Like, children that, like, Rupert Cheldrick is talking about this.

[1102] Children that grow up in New York City are not afraid of the things that they probably should be afraid of.

[1103] You know, they're not afraid of child molesters.

[1104] They're not afraid of it.

[1105] They don't know what that is, right?

[1106] But they know what a monster.

[1107] is like a monster is in their head like kids are scared of the dark it's because of cats like we used to get eaten by cats all the time so like a giant part of being a an ancient hominid was probably avoiding predation from cats I mean there's been so many even eagles they found evidence of human beings that were killed by you like that was that big eagle that lived in new zealand they think they does the reason why that thing went extinct that thing is called the host eagle.

[1108] It was an enormous eagle that they think probably preyed on human beings.

[1109] Which was like, what a fucked up way to go.

[1110] A hand glider comes down and takes you out.

[1111] It's talons.

[1112] Like a bird the side of a hang glider.

[1113] So I was looking up the Russian fox experiment.

[1114] I was finding a bunch of articles about it like we've talked about before, but then one of them I said said that there was a new study, which just says this is from 2019 that might not counter it specifically, but has a different understanding of what was happening, maybe.

[1115] I was trying to read through it, and it just says that what his final result was might not actually be what was happening with domestication.

[1116] Well, let's read this part right here.

[1117] It says the Russian Farm Fox Experiment's Best Known Experimental Study in Animal Domestication.

[1118] By subjecting a population of foxes to selection for tameness alone, Demetri Believ generated foxes, that possess a suite of characteristics that mimics those found across domesticated species.

[1119] This domestication syndrome has been a central focus of research into the biological pathways modified during domestication.

[1120] Here we chart the origins of, how do you say his name, Baliev, do you think?

[1121] You would know better than me, man. How would you say that name?

[1122] Beliyev.

[1123] Beliyev.

[1124] Foxes in eastern Canada and critically assess the appearance of domestication syndrome traits across animal domesticates.

[1125] Our results suggest that both the conclusions of the farm fox experiment and the ubiquity of domestication syndrome have been overstated.

[1126] To understand the process of domestication requires a more comprehensive approach based on essential adaptations to human modified environments.

[1127] So what they did, though, this is interesting.

[1128] So they're saying there's like more to it than just this study.

[1129] But what they did do in this study was pretty fascinating.

[1130] So, starting with 30 male and 100 female silver foxes from the Soviet fur farms, he selectively bred foxes who responded less fearfully when a hand was inserted into their cage.

[1131] The oft -repeated narrative was with just 10 generations of selection on wild foxes.

[1132] He produced foxes who craved human attention and exhibited a range of unconnected phenotypes, including floppy ears, turned up tails, pie -balled coats, di -estrus reproductive cycles and later shorter and wider faces.

[1133] Bayev, did I say right?

[1134] Bel -Yayev.

[1135] Balyaev.

[1136] Proposed that the selection of behavior altered the regulation of multiple interconnected systems that produce the traits Darwin described.

[1137] In ten generations.

[1138] Yeah, that's pretty crazy.

[1139] So in whatever generations from campfire to poodle, campfire to Shibu Inu, from Campfire to Shibu Inu, from Camp fire to Chihuahua we did that slowly but surely over time but that's you know the root of all I mean they only found that out over the last few decades they used to think that dogs were probably the ancestors of their ancestors probably wild hominid wild dogs rather wild canids but then they found out no no it's not wild canines it's fucking wolves they all came from wolves all of them all dogs came from wolves it was like what a pug yeah yeah selected breeding over time created something barbaric something much this is kind of necessary too I think to know what's this part it says it's it's a misunderstood that he found these were like wild foxes when he first got them and they were not right they're fur farm foxes yeah that's what they were saying right what was the misrepresentation that people think that he'd found Oh, that he caught them?

[1140] They were wild, yeah, whatever, yeah.

[1141] Oh, so they were already bred for furs.

[1142] Purpose bread, it says.

[1143] Yeah, purpose bread.

[1144] So they probably already were subject to a certain amount of selective breeding, right?

[1145] I mean, yeah, if you're trying to breed for a fur, then you're looking for a specific coat and...

[1146] Yeah, so they probably, yeah, they're probably, yeah, fed them, like domesticated deer.

[1147] You've ever seen domesticated deer just eating out of people's hands?

[1148] Yeah.

[1149] There's a weird thing with the domesticated deer world.

[1150] Do you know this?

[1151] No. I come here to learn about animals.

[1152] So this deer right here, that's on the table, that is the first deer I ever shot.

[1153] That's a wild mule deer from Montana.

[1154] Yeah, that's where the Missouri breaks, wild country.

[1155] I mean, like, it's where you see homesteads out there that are like from, you know, the 1700s and 1800s or people just didn't survive.

[1156] And they had these just old buildings that were falling apart.

[1157] They're littered out there.

[1158] There's a bunch of them out there.

[1159] It's a really fascinating place.

[1160] But that is a typical wild deer, like a few years old.

[1161] He's probably like four years old or something like that.

[1162] They make dears in these deer farms where they feed them these protein tablets.

[1163] And so like a big deer, a really big deer, is a 200 -inch deer.

[1164] And what that means is the antlers of the deer, like there's big bodies.

[1165] It'll be about 300 pounds for like a mule deer.

[1166] really big one.

[1167] Their bodies are big, but then their antlers are this massive fucking structure on their head of bone that grows quicker than anything in the wild.

[1168] Is the quickest bone that grows that we're aware of in all of nature is an elk or a stag or even deer?

[1169] This shit grows so quick.

[1170] It's just a couple months and all of a sudden they drop their horns at the when you know the end in the winter and then these new ones in the spring just rip and within months they grow so with these farms they're taking these animals and then giving them these preposterous diets that would just never exist in the wild and they have a deer with like 350 inch antlers like that they're just gross it's weird it's weird what they're doing so they're selectively breeding for genetics and then on top of that they're feeding them this crazy diet and then they're letting them loose in these high fence areas and people shoot them and they hang them on their wall like a trophy and almost all hunters have the same reaction they're gross it's like something gross about it yeah it's like something about it but people who like look about 400 inch deer I shot like people that don't give a fuck that's what they want they want the biggest antlers so it's a very controversial thing in like the wildlife conservation community and it's also a way that ced CWD gets spread, unfortunately.

[1171] How?

[1172] Because these wild deer come in contact with these deer that have been captive, and these deer that are captive may be carrying CWD, and then they put these deer out in the wild.

[1173] They hop fences, they get out there, and then CWD spreads.

[1174] And it's a real issue, and especially with white tails.

[1175] And they're seen in mule deer as well, but it's chronic wasting disease, is what it is, and it's horrific.

[1176] and their saliva gets on plants and then with other animals eat the plants and they get it, much like how bison give cattle brucellosis.

[1177] Cattle farmers have a real problem with wild bison getting onto their range because if the bison contain bruselosis, then all of their flock could all have bruselosis and die.

[1178] This is the thing with CWD and a lot of it comes out of this captive -canid or captive deer's like farms that they it's like that it's a whole business this business of raising these captive deer it's real weird it's very unnatural because you do and then they let them loose like there's these big stupid antlers it's just you know like if you see an elk a wild elk's antlers like that that is there because they're they're fighting each other and they're smashing heads and And the bigger the antlers, the more impressive they are for the females and the more they can fight off the males.

[1179] And there's an evolutionary reason for this is just some freak that's been given steroids and a bunch of protein.

[1180] Yeah.

[1181] I don't know how we got to that.

[1182] I mean either.

[1183] I'm trying to figure that out.

[1184] Yeah.

[1185] Well, we're talking about...

[1186] Domestication.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] Domestication.

[1189] And it's effects.

[1190] Yeah.

[1191] The wolf one is one of the most fascinating ones.

[1192] now that we know that all dogs come from wolves.

[1193] Yeah.

[1194] It's really interesting to watch how species will adapt over time and then wonder what is happening to us.

[1195] Because clearly it's a very similar thing is happening to us.

[1196] Yeah.

[1197] And if anything should remind us or in any way, if we're similar to any animal, in the variety of sizes and shapes, like it would be dogs.

[1198] Like human beings vary so widely.

[1199] and that's and we are domesticated we're self -domesticated you know but we're clearly domesticated and that process started a long time ago remember the homona lady yes showed you so what they know about them is they had um canines like you and me obviously but so in the primate world the canines are much bigger obviously because when you when you bear your teeth you're meant to be threatening yes obviously so what they realize about homona lady is that they had smaller canines so in Instead of using them to threaten others, what they realized is that they were such a size that they were using them to smile.

[1200] Whoa.

[1201] So they were smiling.

[1202] They were the first ones to show their teeth as a nice thing.

[1203] That's a nice thing.

[1204] They were smiling 300 ,000 years ago.

[1205] Wow.

[1206] So why wouldn't they have canines?

[1207] Chimps have canines.

[1208] Gorillas have canines.

[1209] And they kind of use their teeth to smile a little, too.

[1210] Chimps seem to.

[1211] They seem like when they're having fun.

[1212] When they're laughing, like chimps seem to laugh, right?

[1213] Yeah.

[1214] And they show their teeth.

[1215] And it doesn't seem like they always show their teeth in a threatening way.

[1216] Like, you guys, that dude's smiling.

[1217] For sure that dude's smiling.

[1218] I mean, come on.

[1219] Look at him.

[1220] Looks like a cool photo.

[1221] He is 100 % smiling.

[1222] Yeah.

[1223] Yeah, it seems like they smile.

[1224] And they have canines.

[1225] Yeah, they've got canines.

[1226] They're certainly large.

[1227] than ours but it's also like if you saw that like is that a smile i mean i don't know what the fuck that is i'm getting out of there it's ambiguous click on that one with the waist up right above you right yeah look at that are you i mean jesus christ you imagine seeing that in the wild you're like oh my god i'm so fucked that's terrifying that's not a happy he found dinner i think i don't know about yeah he's right to fuck you up yeah that's what a crazy thing that's that's what a crazy thing that That just, the fact that they still exist is we're so fortunate to be able to observe and watch these very human -like patterns that we see in terms of like their social structures and how they manage them and how there is like one leader and how they'll branch off into separate groups.

[1228] They even wage war on each other.

[1229] They fight over territories and food.

[1230] It's so interesting.

[1231] It's so interesting because they're so like us, but then so nice.

[1232] not like that thing is kind like that show that picture again it's kind of like us but god that thing's terrifying I mean look at his face if he was mad at you oh my god that would be so horrible and their eyes and some of them have white around the eyes that was something they showed in the the chimp nation doctrine which is really interesting too because he's got animal eyes I mean, he's terrifying, this one right here.

[1233] But some of them, they have almost like, you can almost like, you look into their eyes and you see like a motion.

[1234] Very fascinating species.

[1235] Have you studied at all the Hobbit people from the island of Floresis?

[1236] The Floresiensis.

[1237] Yeah.

[1238] Yeah, that's another strange one, like Como a Lady.

[1239] Because it disrupts the narrative about the doubling of the human brain size as if there's this constantly escalating trend in one direction.

[1240] Yeah.

[1241] So you see the Floresiensis and the lady occupy these strange places, questioning whether or not it's the physical brain or something else that imputes intelligence.

[1242] Yeah.

[1243] Yeah.

[1244] What about the hobbits?

[1245] Well, it's interesting that they coexisted with humans because they're fairly recent, right?

[1246] What is the timeline for those?

[1247] Definitely when Sapiens was around.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] What is the most recent carbon dating on those Homo Florinians?

[1250] conscientious.

[1251] I think it's less than 100 ,000 years.

[1252] And they think those things had tools.

[1253] They think there was a lot of dispute as to whether or not they were just misformed or deformed human beings.

[1254] There was a lot of dispute as to whether or not this was a unique branch of the human chain, but they think it is now.

[1255] And they think they're probably also subject to island dwarfism, you know, like mammals are.

[1256] But for some reason, with reptiles it goes the other way what's the age on forensises i was trying to find an updated article this article is from last month yeah so it's just thing okay initial carbon dating of the sediment determined the remains to be 18 000 years old wow which is startlingly young putting the previous unknown species closer in time to us than neanderthals uh the date was revised in 2016 estimating instead that the hobbit was 50 000 to 60 thousand years old Interesting.

[1257] I wonder what changed and wondered what they got out of the first one.

[1258] The specimen was just wrong in about five different ways and unexpected to the point of people thinking like this can't be possible, said Paige Madison, a historian of paleoanthropology.

[1259] And science writer is currently working on a book about The Hobbit titled Strange Creatures Beyond Count to be published in 2025.

[1260] That's still pretty recent, though.

[1261] 50 ,000 is pretty recent.

[1262] I wonder why they thought it was 18 and why they changed that.

[1263] 18's more magical It's closer That's magical Yeah That seems unreal Well do you know about the Aurang Pendek The Orang Pendek is a mythical Creature that People have spotted In Vietnam And in some of the places Of the world Rejected name What's that?

[1264] They rejected They were going to use that name first But they had to reject Florescianus Yeah I meant flowery anus Oh boy Yeah you can't say that I wonder why they did that.

[1265] But the Oring Pendek is a very similar creature that has been talked about by indigenous people and people that live in the jungle, and they insist that it's a real thing.

[1266] It's a tiny, hairy little human that is very similar to these Hobbit people.

[1267] And, you know, the speculation, like, you know, from the cryptozoology people is that this thing's still alive in very small.

[1268] populations yeah there's some bullshit videos that like show one running across the road you've seen that video it looks fake right yeah it looks fake do you think the gimlin footage is is real Patterson gimlin footage 100 % fake yeah it looks fake yeah it looks fake is fake is it a person in a suit yeah yeah yeah why it's guy walking it's a guy in a suit yeah 100 % although I did get really high once and I was convinced that it was really big foot and I was being an asshole all this time I was like, oh my God, what if that really is Bigfoot?

[1269] I've just been a dick.

[1270] Because some of these hardcore Bigfoot believers, that's their footage.

[1271] The Patterson, but there's so many problems with that.

[1272] First of all, Roger Patterson literally got arrested for writing a bad check to pay for the camera that he used to film that.

[1273] They went there specifically to film it.

[1274] The guy, Bob Hieronymus, who says he was Bigfoot, when you're going to.

[1275] see him walk he's this big old gangly cowboy looking dude when you see him walk he walks exactly like that bigfoot thing you think it was him 100 % huh yeah they even have the receipt from a fucking gorilla suit that they bought have you ever seen him walking side by side find a video of bob hieronymus walking side by side with the original patterson footage so they show the bigfoot walking and then bob walking and he like oh Like, I mean, because he's, you look like a big foot.

[1276] The guy was a fucking, you know there's dudes, a big old cowboy -looking dudes, big old fucking farm country strong dudes.

[1277] Yeah.

[1278] They look like apish.

[1279] They're just big old fuckers.

[1280] And this guy was one of those guys.

[1281] And you see him walking.

[1282] And you see him walking.

[1283] And it's, he walks right.

[1284] You know, they superimpose it.

[1285] They put side by side rather.

[1286] And when they do it, you go, oh, yeah, definitely.

[1287] What a disappointment.

[1288] Do you want to believe that it's real?

[1289] No, I don't want to believe.

[1290] Did you ever believe it was real?

[1291] When I was eight, yeah.

[1292] And when you're nine, you're like, get the fuck out of here.

[1293] Yeah, but my God, there's people to this day.

[1294] Those hardcore, hardcore Bigfoot people are cult members.

[1295] They really are.

[1296] They decide to shut off a part of their brain that critically looks at information.

[1297] Aren't there any eyewitnesses who strike you as credible?

[1298] I was talking to Les Stroud about this.

[1299] Do you know, Les Stroud?

[1300] to Les once about this, I think.

[1301] Yeah, Les, he's a very credible guy in terms of, like, survival tactics.

[1302] He knows a lot about that.

[1303] But his, he didn't see one with his own eyes.

[1304] He heard something.

[1305] And he heard noises that sounded chimpanzee like.

[1306] Bears make those noises all the time.

[1307] I've seen bears make those, I've watched bears make those noises.

[1308] They make them particularly when they're fighting with each other.

[1309] They sound very much like gorillas.

[1310] They do that all the time.

[1311] So if you were alone in the woods and you heard that and you heard smashing and thumping around, you're like, oh, my God, there's a gorilla out there.

[1312] Oh, my God, there's some kind of a primate out there.

[1313] There have been people that have spotted things that are very eerily similar to what you would think is a large bipedal ape.

[1314] The problem is a lot of these places are heavily wooded and populated by bears.

[1315] And bears walk on two legs all the time.

[1316] So here, there's Bob and there's the Bigfoot.

[1317] Right?

[1318] I mean, case closed, right?

[1319] I never saw that.

[1320] I mean, look at that, dude.

[1321] Isn't he like what I said?

[1322] Big old country dude?

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] I mean, we see that guy walking and you imagine him with a fucking gorilla suit on?

[1325] I mean, it doesn't even look good.

[1326] It looks like shit.

[1327] I mean, look at that thing.

[1328] it looks like a guy in a gorilla suit and in my opinion everything that looks fake is fake I never seen anything that looks fake that's real I mean I could be wrong yeah I don't know what that is but I definitely know that the guy that there's like there's a whole paper trail of buying a gorilla is that what he's saying that's the suit I honestly don't know I've never seen this video I was trying to find the side by side I was having a hard time of finding it and this is the one I picked okay so he's saying that that's what wore but that thing does look like it if you go back to that video that photo of where he's holding up that suit that looks pretty fucking similar man pretty fucking similar and all you'd have to do is put that thing on and walk through the woods and it's just too convenient all of it's too convenient that the fact that the guy went looking for it and found it and filmed it and you know the whole thing's corny it's corny data matters data does matter and there's no real data in terms of genetics.

[1329] There's been a lot of, like, goofy talk that they found, like, some kind of human DNA and samples of hair.

[1330] The problem with that is all that DNA's been contaminated.

[1331] I actually talked to an actual biologist about this, and we did an episode of Joe Rogan Questions Everything for the sci -fi channel on Bigfoot.

[1332] We hung around with Bigfoot hunters.

[1333] Duncan and I went out with them and looking for Bigfoot and camping with them and everything, and I just, it's people that are just looking for something, you know, and some of them have had experiences.

[1334] Some of them have said they've seen things, but it's just, all of it just reeks of horseshit.

[1335] And it's unfortunate because I think at one point in time it was real.

[1336] I think almost certainly at one point in time human beings did interact with giganto -pithecus.

[1337] It was a real animal, you know about that?

[1338] and gigantopithecus match is exactly like what people talk about when they talk about Sasquatch.

[1339] It looks exactly like that.

[1340] An enormous bipedal hominid that was maybe more than eight feet tall.

[1341] And they found out about this thing by accident when a guy was looking at apothecary shop in China.

[1342] And he found gigantic teeth that were clearly primate teeth.

[1343] So where did you find these?

[1344] And they go there and they go to the site.

[1345] They dig out jaw bones that indicate it was bipedal.

[1346] and so now they know it's a real thing that existed.

[1347] And they, I think they date that to, when they date, I think they date that to 100 ,000 years ago.

[1348] When do they date Gigantopithecus to?

[1349] Wikipedia says roughly 2 million to 350 ,000 years.

[1350] 350 ,000.

[1351] I thought it was closer.

[1352] I thought it was closer to us.

[1353] That's just what Wikipedia says.

[1354] I see if there's other disputes or something.

[1355] Yeah, because I've read that these date, the carbon date that they did on these teeth, I think they said that that was somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred and something thousand years ago.

[1356] So that would put it, you know, with semi -modern -looking human beings.

[1357] So the question is...

[1358] Very modern.

[1359] Right.

[1360] And then the question is, like, how long did it survive?

[1361] Like, just because you find something, you say if you find one that's 200 ,000 years old, doesn't mean it didn't exist 100 ,000 years ago or even 50 ,000 years ago.

[1362] Like, when was the last one?

[1363] when did they die off and when did humans encounter them and if you look at their range like if they found them in asia and then you look at the bearing landmass and you look at where is it drop off well it drops off in the pacific northwest like that's like literally like goes down alaska makes its way down the coast dense forest which is where a thing like that so proteins extracted from roughly 1 .9 million year old tooth of the aptly named gigantopithecus is a close relative to modern orangutans.

[1364] So protein comparisons amongst living fossil apes suggest that gigantopithecus and orangutan forerunners diverge from a common ancestor between 10 and 12 million years ago.

[1365] Jeez.

[1366] But when did it die off?

[1367] It says they hadn't found anything from the late plasticine era.

[1368] They only have this from the early part of it.

[1369] Okay, so it said the fossils date from around 2 million to almost 300 ,000 years ago.

[1370] The sizes of individual teeth and jaws indicate that it weigh between 200 and 300 kilograms.

[1371] That's a big fucker.

[1372] Interesting.

[1373] So that was Bigfoot.

[1374] So if humans did make it to the point where we had language and the ability to communicate ideas, they probably would communicate about all these creatures that they encountered, and that would be one of them.

[1375] Yeah.

[1376] But the actual, like, Patterson footage, Bigfoot, that's horseshit.

[1377] there's just too many hunters out there too many hikers who would have seen something yeah they don't see anything I've talked to many people that have spent like they've spent months in the backwoods I know multiple guys that do like my friend Adam Green Tree from Australia every year he comes to America and he'll do a remote wilderness elk hunt solo and he he live streams that he puts It's like pieces of it on his Instagram, and he was out there for 28 days.

[1378] He did see a grizzly bear a couple years back, which is not supposed to be there in the San Juan Mountains of Colorado.

[1379] But that's close to Wyoming, and Wyoming is a habitat for grizzlies, and it makes sense that grizzlies would go across the border and make their way in there.

[1380] There's been historical sightings of things that people thought were grizzly bears there, but no big foots.

[1381] None, zero.

[1382] You would think somebody would get a camera footage.

[1383] shot of it like from these trail cams or camera traps or something I mean nothing and you personally never heard or experienced anything no like a big foot thing I don't think I would say that first that'd be the first thing maybe you're holding out Joe no I've never even seen a wolf I mean I think I did see a wolf once in Alberta but it was very very dark it was like it was getting dark at night and I saw something run across the road that looked like dog's eyes I thought possibly could be a wolf um but they have wolves up there they spot them there all the time that's not uncommon the bigfoot thing is just it's just one of those legends you know like the yeti and we we know too much about the world night what's got can i have some yeah please we know too much about what's really in the world now thanks to fall for something like that it's my first my first coffee in a while oh really i think so how long at least a year what yeah really this is about going to be wild Michael Pollan said that he took three months off of caffeine and then the first cup of coffee he had was like psychedelic so cheers cheers to you thanks to that what kind of coffee is it black rifle coffee how do you feel I feel crazy I feel wild ready to go into a trance it's been a while man I gave it up sometime last year what made you just want to sip right now watching me do it peer pressure just like I got you to drink it was that margarita margaritas will do it marguerities have been responsible for more bad decision making than probably any other beverage you don't drink that much though do you?

[1384] No no no no I like a couple of drinks every now and then though you know it's one of those things it's just not good for your health and I'm very conscious of my health I realized that yeah it really hit me last year I got COVID last last summer, and I'm not sure what the connection was, but just my body felt terrible for, like, at least, at least a month or so.

[1385] And then I couldn't, I just couldn't get back to myself.

[1386] And so I quit, I quit alcohol and caffeine, or coffee for sure.

[1387] And I felt a lot, I actually felt a lot better, a lot better.

[1388] So COVID really got you bad.

[1389] It got me really bad.

[1390] I was sick for, I mean, I was in bed for definitely a week or two.

[1391] And then I had like, just persistent kind of malaise for at least a couple months and that went on through most of last year wow so when I stopped so long COVID what they call that's what it felt like man yeah I mean I mean obviously I never had a diagnose but what is it's a weird term right because it's kind of vague what does that mean you know it's like people get wrecked by the disease and then they don't seem to recover very well and and return to their robust self why?

[1392] Why does it get some people, how come some people get sick and they get over it?

[1393] Can I ask you about your vitamin intake?

[1394] Yeah, it's pretty poor.

[1395] I mean, so after, so last summer I started taking a lot more vitamin D and vitamin C and echinacea.

[1396] But that's basically it.

[1397] That's not enough.

[1398] I know.

[1399] You know, you can take things that cover your basis.

[1400] Like there's a, there's a product called AG1, athletic greens.

[1401] It's nice because you just mix it in water.

[1402] A little packet.

[1403] poured in water or you get like a scoop of it and put in water and mix it up every day yeah but it's easy it doesn't taste bad taste good and uh but you do need vitamin d and you should also take vitamin d with vitamin k too it helps your body but you should be taking a host of things you should be taking colloidal minerals you should be taking essential fatty acids like if you want to optimize your your body's ability to recover and to be able to perform yeah you really need to supplement and supplementation I think is something that many people have maligned that do not experience it when you talk to doctors all you need is a balanced diet and those doctors always have pot bellies and they look like shit if you talk to someone who's a fit doctor is like really healthy they'll they'll tell you the value of not just good nutrition but also good supplementation and you really should supplement and supplementing with vitamin d is critical especially to avoid colds.

[1404] You know, that's the speculation about why we get flu and colds in the winter.

[1405] Oh, it's flu season.

[1406] Why is flu of a fucking season?

[1407] Well, because that's when people are very low in vitamin D. Because there's not getting any, the best way to get vitamin D for sure is sun exposure.

[1408] Yeah.

[1409] And vitamin D is a hormone.

[1410] It's not just a vitamin.

[1411] It's responsible for a lot of things in the body, including your ability to have a properly functioning immune system.

[1412] And I think there's some nutty number of people in this country that are deficient in vitamin D. And out of the people that were hospitalized with COVID, I think the number was 84 % of them had deficient levels of vitamin D. How much do you take by supplement?

[1413] Me?

[1414] Yeah.

[1415] You don't have to reveal it.

[1416] Well, it's 20 ,000 milligrams a day?

[1417] 20 ,000?

[1418] Yeah.

[1419] Like each little tablet is like 5 ,000.

[1420] I take four of them a day.

[1421] Yeah.

[1422] Yeah, I go hard But I go hard with a lot of things That's a lot of D But I also, I'm almost 60 years old I'm 56 years old and I push my body I work out really hard I work out as hard now as I did when I was 25 You know and it is possible to do But you have to do it right Like you have to give your body The tools that it needs to recover But those tools and the food that you eat And the supplements that you take All those, they help your old overall health, which helps your ability to recover from illness.

[1423] You were telling me that in Athens, too.

[1424] It makes sense, like some sort of strength training.

[1425] Strength training is critical.

[1426] Like, first of all, it's critical as you age because you lose bone mass, you lose muscle mass. And there's a lot of people that look similar to the way they looked 10 years ago, but they have more fat and less muscle and less dense bones.

[1427] And it's just for your ability to do things and to be mobile and you have to force your body to lift heavy things.

[1428] And I don't mean really heavy.

[1429] Like the heaviest thing I lift is my body weight.

[1430] The second heaviest thing I lift is 70 pounds.

[1431] You don't do heavy weights?

[1432] No. Huh?

[1433] No. I don't do heavy weights at all.

[1434] I do kettlebells.

[1435] So what I do is like cleans and presses and swings and windmills.

[1436] And I do all these things that make my whole body work as one unit.

[1437] I don't do anything that's an isolation exercise.

[1438] Everything I do is my, so it's all stuff where my body's forced to balance this weight and press it and then lean over and press it up or Turkish get -ups where you lie in your back and you press it up and then you get up and you stand up on one knee and then you stand all the way up and then you slowly lower yourself back down.

[1439] They're not glamorous exercises, but they're really good for a coordination of all of your muscular and all of your entire core and your whole system working together, instead of like curls or, you know, tricep extensions.

[1440] Those are good for isolating and developing specific muscles, but I don't do any of that stuff.

[1441] Everything I do is just I use my whole body.

[1442] How many times a week?

[1443] I work out almost every day.

[1444] Do something.

[1445] I do something almost every day.

[1446] I got to step it up.

[1447] Well, it's not hard to do.

[1448] It really isn't.

[1449] You just have to get in a habit.

[1450] of doing it.

[1451] Like if you just get in a habit of doing 100 push -ups and 100 body weight squats every day, that'll change your fucking life.

[1452] And it takes 15 minutes.

[1453] It does not take long.

[1454] You can do 100 push -ups and 100 body -weight squats in 15 minutes.

[1455] I do 100 push -ups and 100 body -weight squats in 15 minutes.

[1456] Yeah.

[1457] I might have to work up to that.

[1458] You just do sets of 20.

[1459] Just do five sets of 20.

[1460] So I do two in a row where I do 20 push -ups, 20 body -weight squats, 20 push -ups, 20 body -weight squats.

[1461] Then I catch my breath, have some to drink.

[1462] And then when my heart rate gets down a little bit, I'm ready to go again.

[1463] I do another 20, another 20, another 20, another 20.

[1464] So now I'm in two.

[1465] So now I just need one more.

[1466] And then I do my last 20 and my last bodyweight squad.

[1467] It's 100.

[1468] Okay.

[1469] It's not hard to do.

[1470] I can do it, man. You just say, this is what I do every day.

[1471] And maybe it'll take you a half hour.

[1472] But it's a nice little workout.

[1473] It's simple.

[1474] You can do it anywhere.

[1475] I can do it on the road.

[1476] I can do it anywhere.

[1477] It doesn't cover all of your bases, but it's a really good base to start from.

[1478] And then once you start doing something, like that, then you can incorporate other things.

[1479] Then you can incorporate lunges with like maybe dumbbells or chin -ups or things along those lines, dips.

[1480] Like you could most certainly get a really good workout every day with just your body weight.

[1481] There's so many things you could do.

[1482] And now with YouTube and all the resources that are available, you can just Google body weight routines.

[1483] And bam, you've got so many different options that you could just follow along to some video and people do things like that.

[1484] Super easy to do.

[1485] Okay.

[1486] I'm on board.

[1487] Yeah.

[1488] But resistance training is very important.

[1489] It's really important as you age.

[1490] What about cardio, though?

[1491] Because that's the one thing I don't have trouble with.

[1492] I've been doing cardio in the mornings and getting lots of sunshine.

[1493] Cardio's great.

[1494] That's kind of, I feel a lot better.

[1495] So when I got sick last summer, that's when I needed to move a lot more.

[1496] Plus, I was sitting at the desk too much, you know, typing and writing and stuff.

[1497] Oh, yeah.

[1498] So that my back was all out of whack.

[1499] I've been going to a chiropractor.

[1500] I went for months to a chiropractor and then I've been sleeping a lot more and just being more mobile, more active.

[1501] I mean, there were days I would sit down to research and write I could go for hours at a time and like in the aggregate maybe 15 hours a day like when I was trying to finish the book and that caught up to me bad man. Makes sense.

[1502] So I pulled my back out a couple times trying to lift the girls.

[1503] That's when I realized I was like grossly out of shape.

[1504] Do you use an ergonomic chair when you sit?

[1505] No. You should use one of these.

[1506] Get one of these fuckers.

[1507] These things are amazing.

[1508] I mean, I'm sitting in this thing three hours every day.

[1509] Yeah.

[1510] I used to have like a regular office chair and after every podcast, my back, I'd be like, oh, it hurt.

[1511] But this forces you to have correct posture.

[1512] I've noticed.

[1513] It's not very, it wasn't comfortable at first.

[1514] It's a little odd.

[1515] But overall, it'll be more comfortable.

[1516] If you get used to this, like I have the exact same chair at my home desk when I write.

[1517] Same chair.

[1518] That lower back support.

[1519] Mm -hmm.

[1520] And it also, it's just like the way it doesn't allow you to kind of like slump in.

[1521] That's what I was doing.

[1522] I was slumping over the computer like this.

[1523] And my spine was all out of whack.

[1524] I used to get a bad neck pain when I was writing too much on a laptop because, you know, you're sitting there like this the whole time.

[1525] And just this like head down in a bad office chair, some shitty chair.

[1526] I would get like, ah, my neck would hurt.

[1527] And that's why I knew I had to stop.

[1528] Sometimes I'd try to keep riding, but my neck would be irritated.

[1529] I'm like, I've got to stop.

[1530] But this doesn't, I don't get any of that anymore with this.

[1531] These are, what are they called, Capisco's.

[1532] It used to be, the company used to be called Fully, but I think they sold to another company now.

[1533] These are the shit.

[1534] I've tried everything.

[1535] I've tried the ones where you're on your knees.

[1536] Yeah.

[1537] You know, when it's not really a chair.

[1538] It's like all your weight is sitting in your knees.

[1539] Those are pretty good.

[1540] Those are pretty good.

[1541] I used to have one of those at the house.

[1542] Some people like a balance ball.

[1543] They sit on one of those Bosu balls Yeah, that was recommended too Those are good Because it's his same principle It forces you You have to watch your posture The whole time Yeah, but that's the idea I said What posture is essentially is a constant static exercise Right?

[1544] Because you really want I just do this And I have a I used to have terrible posture I'm much better at it now But it's because I've had back problems You know So you just like force yourself To like stay in this This is how your body's supposed to be Yeah It's very unnatural though It is At least for me. But that's also, like, why I wonder, like, why did those animals, those ancient hominids, why do they choose to stand up?

[1545] Like, what, what facilitated that, you know?

[1546] You're all right?

[1547] Yeah, I'm okay.

[1548] You're okay with the coffee?

[1549] I seem like you were about to trip balls back there, buddy.

[1550] I had a moment there.

[1551] I do feel it.

[1552] We were talking about this before, but the reason why I brought up Kundalini Yoga and I was going to bring up holotropic breathing, There are some methods that people use.

[1553] Yeah.

[1554] And I'm saying this as someone who hasn't.

[1555] I've done some breathing exercises that did create a very bizarre state.

[1556] And breathing exercises, I do have some experience, but I've never done the holotropic breathing.

[1557] We neither.

[1558] They have these, you know, like real rituals where they do holotropic breathing.

[1559] And people have what they describe as very psychedelic experiences.

[1560] That was Stan Groff after some of his LSD experiences.

[1561] I think he created holotropic breathwork as a way to engage the same process that he discovered through LSD.

[1562] And then, of course, there's John Lilly who developed a sensor deprivation tank that also makes you achieve a psychedelic state endogenously, but through an external mechanism of lying in the water that's...

[1563] We have one here.

[1564] Have you seen the one that we have here?

[1565] No. In the studio?

[1566] Yeah, we have one right here.

[1567] Yeah?

[1568] Yeah.

[1569] I'll give it a try.

[1570] Does it work?

[1571] Oh, yeah.

[1572] Yeah, it's pretty wild.

[1573] It's really interesting.

[1574] I used to have one in my house, but my wife got weirded out by it.

[1575] People got weirded out when they come over.

[1576] Like, what the fuck is in your basement?

[1577] Is that a freezer?

[1578] Like, no. It's a body -shaped freezer.

[1579] No, it's a, but it's even weirder.

[1580] Like, you got a tank that you float in your basement.

[1581] Like, yeah.

[1582] You would too if you did it.

[1583] Once you do it, you go, oh, my God, this is amazing.

[1584] Have you had out -of -body experiences?

[1585] In there?

[1586] Yeah.

[1587] Well, it's essentially the idea that Lily came up with.

[1588] he had a bunch of different iterations of it.

[1589] The initial one, he wore a scuba tank helmet, like a scuba helmet, and he was sort of suspended by straps in the water, and he had this helmet on, and the water was the same temperature of his skin, and so through this method, he was able to relieve himself of most external stimulation, because the external stimulations that you have right now are, like, obviously we're sitting at this desk you see everything you hear everything your feet are touching the ground your butts touching the chair your back side you're that's all sensory input and in the absence of any sensory input lily's suspicion was that you could achieve psychedelic states and so if you could free the mind and so he did a bunch of different versions of it and then eventually he figured out that if you just added a ton of salt to the water And you used what is like waterbed heaters.

[1590] So waterbed heaters at the bottom, you line it with plastic, and then you get it to a steady 94, whatever degrees.

[1591] And with that salt in it, you'll float.

[1592] And when you do get in there, the water becomes impossible to different.

[1593] You can't tell the difference to where the air is and the water is because it's just all the same temperature.

[1594] And so it's the same temperature of your skin.

[1595] So as long as you don't move, you don't even feel the water.

[1596] And it feels like you're just flying through space.

[1597] And you don't see anything.

[1598] You don't hear anything.

[1599] Half your face is underwater, so your ears are underwater.

[1600] A lot of people put ear plugs in.

[1601] I generally don't.

[1602] But then half your body is above the surface, and you're just lying there floating.

[1603] And it's very relaxing.

[1604] It's a great way for your body to absorb epsom salt.

[1605] You get magnesium through that.

[1606] You know, like when people take epsom salts when they're sore.

[1607] It's magnesium.

[1608] You're taking magnesium.

[1609] And you're just taking it through your skin.

[1610] I'm taking notes, man. Yeah.

[1611] I'm going to incorporate all this.

[1612] But these are all ways that people have.

[1613] Oh, Jesus.

[1614] I almost got the book, but didn't.

[1615] Isn't amazing?

[1616] Look, that's amazing.

[1617] It's pretty good.

[1618] Like, it literally, like, cut a line.

[1619] That's a crazy line.

[1620] Chuck that, Jimmy.

[1621] Thank you, sir.

[1622] But, so my question was, is there any historical evidence or any information that leads you to think that possibly they were engaging in some other kind of thing?

[1623] So your friend who doesn't believe Oh, right.

[1624] Like maybe there were some other options that they were also doing when you think about these rituals, right?

[1625] Yeah, that's a possibility.

[1626] I mean, we know there were cave techniques.

[1627] So, I mean, it's not just poppy popengalia.

[1628] There are other, I'm going to clean the coffee at the same time.

[1629] Thank you.

[1630] There were other scholars, too, who just aren't big fans of the psychedelic hypothesis for any number of reasons.

[1631] Also, it's like very unpopular until recently to even suggest anything about psychedelic.

[1632] I mean, think about all the different people that their career suffered because they did bring up psychedelics.

[1633] That's who I write about it in the book, yeah, is Professor Ruck.

[1634] Yeah.

[1635] He was 88 years old.

[1636] He's still at Boston University.

[1637] He was at Boston University in the late 70s when they unleashed that hypothesis.

[1638] And it really impacted his career in the 80s and 90s and beyond.

[1639] So like that's, you know, people are aware.

[1640] of that they're aware of not just i was aware of that yeah for sure that's i mean it's at least part of the reason why i haven't tried psychedelics yeah you know i wasn't i wasn't personally called to that experience well it's also you you know from your perspective if you were a guy who did psychedelics and then you're reporting on psychedelics like oh this is confirmation bias this guy wants to believe this but instead you know since you haven't it's probably better for the the overall acceptance of your research that you're you're looking at it purely from an academic perspective you're just looking at fact -based evidence -based historically based and trying to find the data yeah like we were talking about i think uh yeah my experience is is meaningless compared to all that you know i just i never i don't know i managed to avoid it for so many years that when it came time to write the book it just seemed like it wasn't a priority well i think you should do it eventually because it's so profound you can't you're not going to be able to believe that you never experienced it before but also one of the most bizarre things about the the DMT state in particular which is something that we know is produced indogynously in the human body that you you've been there before like when you get there you're like oh i've been here before it seems familiar oh 100 % like the first time i did it i was like oh my god it's so mind -blowing but also so familiar that you think oh i've been here before and i think you're there all the time i think you probably go there to some extent every night when you're dreaming yeah and we don't know we don't specifically know like we do know um because of uh rick strassman's work strassman who wrote uh DMT the spirit molecule and did the first uh FDA approved uh studies that they did with IV slow drip DMT experiences.

[1641] And these people have just wild experiences with entities and realms.

[1642] And apparently there's some stuff that's going on right now in London.

[1643] And Graham Hancock told me about this.

[1644] That there's some really profound work that's being done that they're doing these studies where they're doing the same sort of technique.

[1645] They're doing it for like three hours.

[1646] At imperial.

[1647] Is that what it is?

[1648] Yeah, it's an imperial.

[1649] Yeah.

[1650] Do you know more about it?

[1651] Do you tell us?

[1652] Yes.

[1653] Yes, it's long, I'm not sure if it's that long.

[1654] I think it's 30 minutes.

[1655] Oh.

[1656] But there's another team in Basel in Switzerland that's also experimenting with infused.

[1657] I think it's like 90 minutes.

[1658] And interestingly, this is somewhat breaking news.

[1659] There's a new study happening in the U .S. So the first U .S. research on extended state DMT is happening at UC San Diego, which is really cool.

[1660] Actually, Jamie, there should be a press release.

[1661] about it, which came out earlier this year.

[1662] There's a team there being headed by a guy named John Dean, Dr. John Dean.

[1663] He's talked with Rick, by the way, about his research.

[1664] And they recently got some funding to be the first U .S. site to host these extended state infusions.

[1665] And to really try to get in the route.

[1666] Are you interested?

[1667] Yeah, sign me up.

[1668] Well, I imagine it will eventually become something like ketamine therapy.

[1669] You know, one of my friends, Neil Brennan, who's suffered from depression in his life, hilarious comedian, he went to, I guess as a psychiatrist.

[1670] I don't know who does these things, but he went to this place where they give you an IV ketamine drip.

[1671] And he's like, okay, it's probably going to be, you know, just relaxing.

[1672] He goes, oh, no, no, no, you are tripping your balls off in a doctor's office, like hooked up to.

[1673] to an IV bag, closing your eyes and experiencing this like full blown ketamine state, which you said is like profoundly weird and very, very psychedelic.

[1674] And some people, it helps them alleviate depression.

[1675] Hmm.

[1676] Yeah, but it's also like super abused recreationally, especially around here.

[1677] There's a lot of people that get prescribed ketamine for depression.

[1678] So they have like these nasal pumps of ketamine.

[1679] See people at night, you're like, We had someone in the club that went into a K -hole.

[1680] No way.

[1681] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1682] Someone in the audience.

[1683] The husband was like, she did too much cat in me. He was like, yeah, yeah.

[1684] At a comedy club.

[1685] Because you're spraying this stuff up your nose, and, you know, no one's stopping you from doing it 10 times.

[1686] That seems irresponsible.

[1687] Yeah, that's what people do.

[1688] I know, but this is my...

[1689] You're drunk.

[1690] That's my concern with some of these drugs.

[1691] Right.

[1692] That is a legitimate concern, but also that is a concern with...

[1693] food.

[1694] You can't regulate people's food consumption just because people get overweight.

[1695] You've got to let people figure it out.

[1696] And you've got to give them the information and the tools that they need to make good choices.

[1697] And the only way you do that is if it's legal and studied and people understand what is the correct dose.

[1698] Like, what is the correct thing?

[1699] What's the best way to do it?

[1700] It's the most beneficial and causes the least harm and treats it with the most respect.

[1701] Because one of the things about rituals, I think, and these ritualistic settings is that there's this heightened state of importance and significance of the thing that you're you're about to embark on this this journey that you're about to go on and um related to this there was a a place that i had initially purchased before i put the mothership at the ritz uh before i bought the ritz i was under contract to buy this one building that was owned by a cult.

[1702] And there's a documentary about the cult.

[1703] It's called Holy Hell.

[1704] And it's about this guy who was a hypnotist and also a gay porn star who started a cult in California and then moved it out to Austin.

[1705] And this guy would do this thing with these people where he would call it the knowing.

[1706] It's a crazy documentary.

[1707] Because like all cult documentaries, in the beginning, it looks awesome.

[1708] In the beginning, it's like, oh, they figured it out.

[1709] This is the solution to what ails us.

[1710] The modern society where people are disconnected, there's no sense of community.

[1711] These people are splashing around the water together.

[1712] They're going on hikes together.

[1713] They're doing yoga together.

[1714] They're eating together.

[1715] They're singing together.

[1716] God, it looks amazing.

[1717] Amazing.

[1718] And he had this thing that he would do what was called the knowing.

[1719] And there's videos of him doing it to people.

[1720] And he would, when he felt like they were ready.

[1721] And it took fred, some people would be very angry.

[1722] He's like, you're not ready.

[1723] because he was just a con man. But what he did was convince them that when this thing would happen and he would touch them and give them the knowing that they would have this profound experience where they would connect with God.

[1724] And it worked.

[1725] That's what's crazy.

[1726] When he did it to these people, and obviously these people are deeply committed, right?

[1727] They're cult members.

[1728] They've bought in hook, line, sinker, and he's a hypnotist.

[1729] So he's doing hypnotic therapy on these people.

[1730] when he does it to them you see them like oh like and they talked about it like it was the happiest moment in their life and they were talking about it in this documentary in the context of describing how this guy was a con man and about this guy ruined their lives and they followed him for two decades now they're lost and 50 years old just trying to find their way in the world and they were just young people or trying to find a way they still talk about that experience being one of the impactful profound moments of their life and it was bullshit but it was it clearly wasn't bullshit if I mean he didn't really have magic powers but he did have the power of suggestion he did understand hypnosis and because they believed in him so much they really did have this experience so what is it about this trick this placebo effect this this this thing that you can hit this switch that you can hit where these endogenous chemicals that we know exist, we can make them bust out of your brain in some profound way that makes you have this complete transcendent experience.

[1731] That's what interests me about this research at UCSD.

[1732] I think they're, in addition to the extended state infusions with DMT, they're also setting up these volunteers to fMRIs to really try and figure out how DMT is interacting with the brain, how it's released or not.

[1733] And I think part of that interest in that research is really trying to figure out the endogenous.

[1734] That's sort of the holy grail of DMT research.

[1735] So this guy, John Dean, I think he's founded in rat brains, but we've never actually seen conclusively, never measured the presence of DMT in the human body, in the human brain.

[1736] I think that's part of his interest is trying to figure out if he can endogenously identify the presence within these states of mind.

[1737] So whether it's, you know, someone in deep meditation or in, or in, you know, you know, in dreaming or some other, you know, altered experience, I think that part of the, the really interesting part of the, about the research there, is trying to isolate exactly how that gets triggered, because if we're sitting on this incredibly potent chemical and we don't know how to release or control it, it's something that that deserves a little more attention, I think.

[1738] For sure.

[1739] But the Kundalini people think that you can achieve that state through Kundalini.

[1740] So that needs to be studied then.

[1741] This is coming from people that I know that have done both.

[1742] Yeah.

[1743] But my question is, one of the things that does happen when you have a profound breakthrough experiences, you don't have flashbacks, really, but you can have a dream.

[1744] And McKenna talked about this.

[1745] And in that dream, you'll smoke DMT and you'll have a DMT trip.

[1746] It's almost like a doorway gets opened up.

[1747] I've had dreams like that.

[1748] Have you?

[1749] Yeah.

[1750] What were they like?

[1751] Yeah.

[1752] Yeah, because I set up this boundary in my real life.

[1753] It hasn't happened often, but I've had a couple dreams where I've imbibed the potion.

[1754] And it's very strange, actually, man. I don't have visions.

[1755] There isn't a breakthrough experience, but there's this sense of, like, overwhelming calm and serenity.

[1756] And so I never felt like I was hallucinating things that weren't there.

[1757] Maybe I got the wrong potion.

[1758] But when I've had these experiences in the dream world, it's like the dream world.

[1759] world wraps itself around me in a cocoon and I have this ability just to also lucid, lucid dream of this very rich dream life.

[1760] Have you always been able to lucid dream?

[1761] Yeah, since I was a, since I was a kid.

[1762] Interesting.

[1763] That's another thing that you would think that I would have practiced.

[1764] Like, it seems like there's actual strategies to lucid dream.

[1765] Right.

[1766] And it seems like it's fun.

[1767] But why have I not looked into it at all?

[1768] You know, I think about that, but like, with your attention holotropic breathing and i think about that with mckenna talked about that too which is really funny he said because people were talking about all these different ways to achieve psychedelic states without psychedelics and he said it makes me think of this um one monk who had uh practiced a city of levitation and one of those cities yeah and he had practiced this for like 10 10 years and the buddha came to town And he said, I have practiced a city of levitation.

[1769] I can walk on water.

[1770] And the Buddha is like, yeah, but the ferry's only a nickel.

[1771] And the idea is like, yeah, you probably get there indogynously.

[1772] But why would you when mushrooms are everywhere?

[1773] That was McKenna's take on it.

[1774] Like, yeah, okay.

[1775] Maybe you can get there through yoga or whatever.

[1776] But you can definitely get there through DMT or ayahuasco.

[1777] If you understand the dosing, like you.

[1778] mentioned if you understand how to grow them how to use them properly and I think that I think that's kind of what we're missing from the ancient past and so it's kind of fun I've had all these weird conversations over the past three years about like the application of the of the ancient ritual to today and you know my my feelings on psychedelics have changed quite a bit over the past three years and what I've realized amongst other things is that it's less about the drug and I think it's more about everything you just described.

[1779] It's more about the ritual, it's more about the ceremony.

[1780] The fact that these drugs are organic and they've been found on the planet and their use on every inhabited continent has been cataloged is something worth reflecting on.

[1781] So they're there.

[1782] You can't ignore them.

[1783] But throughout the long arc of history, there have been practices and protocols around their use, which typically obtained within small communities.

[1784] Small, tight -knit communities where people took care of each other, where people knew how to grow and dose these things.

[1785] And I think that one of the things I talk about in the book is this, the secret to pharmacology is posology, the notion that it's all about, it's all about the dosing.

[1786] And it's all about the ritual around which this experience is taking place.

[1787] And so, like, when you read Alusus, for example, remember we went to, you got to see Alusus in person, Like, if this hypothesis is true, right, about this psychedelic potion, you know, it wasn't consumed in a dining room, like, in haste with no preparation.

[1788] Like, you would have prepared for at least 18 months, if not longer, to walk that sacred pilgrimage trail, to show up there and to, over the course of nine days, by the way, to experience this rite of passage, which for many people was the culminating experience of a lifetime.

[1789] And I think that that's something we're just missing today, at least in the West.

[1790] I don't think we have that kind of sacred container.

[1791] Well, it's illegal.

[1792] That's a big part of it.

[1793] And, you know, there's a lot of ignorance as to, like, what these things are and what the experience actually is.

[1794] And I absolutely agree that ceremony is important and set in setting.

[1795] It's very, very important.

[1796] Having the proper mindset, making sure that you haven't eaten anything before you've done it.

[1797] but I don't know if ceremony is more important in the actual experience because the actual experience you could have with a bunch of your idiot friends sitting on a couch and if you do DMT you will fucking 100 % go there and you'll be like how is this possible how is it possible that this is literally 15 seconds away like you take three giant hits and you're gone and you exist in this realm that it's unimaginable that and it's you there it's not you're seeing things that aren't there it's you're there you're there in this thing because it's you're not just seeing things you're experiencing them you're you're it's like they're working on your brain it's very weird whatever it is like you see you can sometimes see them like moving around they're like like like mechanics like guys at screwdrivers and shit like fucking around with your head it really it's very weird it's very weird experience and unfortunately it's illegal and it's crazy because is fentanyl isn't.

[1798] You know, it's like you could buy opiates at a pharmacy.

[1799] You can't experience something that is probably the root of a lot of religious experiences, if not most of them.

[1800] And there was just, Gavin Newsom just vetoed something in California that was going to make, it was going to decriminalize psilocybin and a bunch of other psychedelics.

[1801] What was that that he vetoed?

[1802] Yeah, over the weekend.

[1803] Yeah.

[1804] Why?

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] Why?

[1807] In this day and age, why?

[1808] Why less freedoms for people?

[1809] That seems so stupid.

[1810] His written response was that there was an absence of therapeutic guidelines, and that if they were formulated and then published, I think he would have reviewed the bill differently.

[1811] Well, that's fair.

[1812] That's right.

[1813] That's actually fair.

[1814] That's fair.

[1815] But I think the proper solution would be to come up with guidelines.

[1816] Right.

[1817] California should immediately begin work to set up regulated treatment guidelines replete with dosing information therapeutic guidelines, rules to prevent against exploitation during guided treatments, and medical clearance of no underlying psychosis.

[1818] All those are good, that's actually very good.

[1819] That's better than just, okay, so I take back what I said.

[1820] It wasn't that it was stupid.

[1821] Like, maybe they should have had that before they attempted to decriminalize it.

[1822] Newsom's statement said, unfortunately, this bill would decriminalize possession prior to those guidelines going into place, and I cannot sign it.

[1823] That's actually fair, but that means that they should just get together and put together some guidelines.

[1824] And the problem is, in order to find out what the proper dosage is, you have to run studies.

[1825] And they have to be approved, and they have to be, you know, it has to be legit.

[1826] But they should do that.

[1827] And if they do do that, they should pass those things.

[1828] And also, I think, it's important that he said to keep people, like, what was the specific language that they used about rules, about, can you hold it up again?

[1829] Is actually what we're talking about with, prevent against exploitation during guided treatments.

[1830] So the guru thing that we're talking about.

[1831] And the cult thing.

[1832] It's a big deal, man. It is a big deal.

[1833] Because you're very, I mean, not that I know, but one, I mean, one is very vulnerable in that position.

[1834] And I think that I always look back to the way psychedelics were spoken.

[1835] about in the 50s and 60s, right?

[1836] One of these famous lines is about psychedelics are non -specific amplifiers.

[1837] And so you just make bear the unconscious, right?

[1838] And to someone who hasn't done a lot of depth work into the unconscious and those processes, it can be very traumatic, man. And screening for psychosis.

[1839] That's another very good point about his rejection of it, because that's an issue.

[1840] It's a giant issue.

[1841] And people that struggle with normal consciousness really shouldn't be fucking around with these things.

[1842] You talked about this with cannabis, by the way.

[1843] 100%.

[1844] Yeah, that's Alex Berenson's book.

[1845] And It's also me personally having experienced it with multiple people.

[1846] I've seen multiple people over the time that lost their fucking minds.

[1847] And one thing a lot of them had in common was they're heavy pot smokers.

[1848] And including some one friend of mine who lost his mind and came back, he quit weed.

[1849] And he was like, dude, I thought the fucking FBI was following me in the sky with drones.

[1850] And like I was freaking the fight.

[1851] And there's no reason for him to be followed.

[1852] It's not like he's a criminal or even a bad guy.

[1853] Or even a fucking person of note, just a guy who was freaking out because he was smoking too much weed and it was literally making him psychotic.

[1854] Or at least schizophrenic.

[1855] Like he was hearing voices.

[1856] Stop smoking weed.

[1857] Came back to normal.

[1858] So I think there's certain people, but that's just like everything.

[1859] There's certain drugs that people cannot take.

[1860] Certain foods people cannot eat.

[1861] There's certain people have allergies.

[1862] They have sensitivities to things.

[1863] We vary biologically so much, like the idea that everyone should do a certain thing is kind of crazy.

[1864] Because some, you know, there's people that are allergic to red meat.

[1865] A friend of mine got bit by a tick, the lone star tick.

[1866] It gives you something called Billy Rubin.

[1867] Oh, no, no, Billy Rubin.

[1868] Alpha gal.

[1869] And it makes you allergic to red meat.

[1870] Huh.

[1871] And it's fairly common.

[1872] Happens a lot.

[1873] It's a tick bite.

[1874] And for him, it was like a whole year.

[1875] For a whole year, he's allergic to red meat.

[1876] weird you know so it's like you can't tell people like everyone should do ayahuasca no no no no no no some people shouldn't do anything ever so yeah some people should take whatever medication their psychiatrist is giving them that's keeping them from fucking jumping off a bridge right that's another thing yeah contraindications and people on medication it's very very complicated man oh sure especially people in medications I know people that suffer from anxiety and they're on anti -anxiety medication They would like to try psychedelics, but they cannot while they're on that medication.

[1877] So there's this, like, weird little balancing act, what to do.

[1878] Yeah, it's a big deal.

[1879] I said there have been a lot of studies on MDMA and psilocybin over the past 20 years, less clinical studies on some of the other things, obviously.

[1880] And I think that as governments engage, we'll see policies develop that, you know, really try and account for all that safety, you know, knowledge around dosing and therapeutic guidelines, ethical considerations.

[1881] And I think that's all very, very important, man. It is very important, but it really is important for us to get an actual understanding of, like, you know, kilograms per body weight, how much body weight, like, what is the effective dose for a person who weighs 140 pounds versus is it different?

[1882] Does it vary?

[1883] You know, I don't think it varies with some, I think that's one of the things about DMT is it's not specific, or maybe it's still Saibin, not specific to your body weight.

[1884] which is interesting psilocybin is i think is that yeah but not d is that what it is i think so yeah okay so that's weird right like why isn't dmt specific to your body weight like why wouldn't a dose for a 500 pound man be you know way too much for you but we have to know we have to find the only way to know that is to study it and to get accurate research and data that's on the on the medicinal and therapeutic front and but i do think there's lots of other good work um around transcendence and consciousness studies and psychedelics, like, outside the medicinal room.

[1885] And this is, that's kind of, you know, that was my interest in writing, in writing the book, who was trying to suss out, like, the societal implications of this, the historical implications of this.

[1886] Well, if it really was psychedelic rituals that led to the birth of democracy, that seems pretty important.

[1887] We should, we should be looking at that.

[1888] Doesn't it kind of make sense, though?

[1889] Like, who else is going to say, you know, everybody should have to say?

[1890] You'd have to be tripping.

[1891] If you were, like, the whole world was essentially run by dictator.

[1892] back then.

[1893] Why would anybody vary from that strategy?

[1894] Because it seems like that's the default mode of people who don't do psychedelics.

[1895] I would imagine about all the world leaders that are currently involved in horrific things all across the globe.

[1896] How many of them are doing psychedelics?

[1897] Probably zero.

[1898] Probably zero.

[1899] And this idea that psychedelics could fix the world, like, I wouldn't say it that way, but maybe.

[1900] You know, it might.

[1901] It would have a profound impact on just the consensus of like the general population, just most people that have done them what the way it changed, the way they see things.

[1902] And that alone would change the way they think and behave and vote and what they accept and don't accept from their leaders.

[1903] what they accept and don't incident like the dangers and the harms of censorship and propaganda they would be much more aware of that oh you're like literally like creating mind viruses and shaping the way people think to benefit your own good yeah i think i mean but that's all the more reason to to i think to try and study the way that we engage these things in the past yes and so uh since the book came out i mean there was this you know there was all this pandemic space that opened up.

[1904] And so I was on Zooms a lot with different people.

[1905] And one of the projects that came from the book, which I'm pretty proud of, is this guy, Andrew Coe, I mentioned in the book quite a bit.

[1906] He's an archaeochemist.

[1907] He was based at MIT when I was writing the book.

[1908] And he's one of the few people who really looks into these ancient containers to try and figure out what organic compounds were left behind.

[1909] It's a really cool science.

[1910] You also need to be a good classicist to do this.

[1911] You need to be able to read the ancient languages and compare them against the chemical data that's coming up.

[1912] You need to know ethnobotany.

[1913] It's, you know, it also helps if you can build out these sort of like paleo -ecological habitat maps, you know, what was growing where and when and why.

[1914] So like it's kind of this mix of the art and the science.

[1915] And he was one of the very few people doing this.

[1916] And over the past couple years, he was invited into Yale to continue doing this work at the Yale Peabody Museum, which is one of the world's most prestigious natural history museums, and they've offered him the opportunity to continue studying this as part of the Yale ancient pharmacology program, which is really cool.

[1917] That's very cool.

[1918] There are professionals in the world who exist, amongst other things, who are taking into account these kinds of questions about the ways that these beverages or these compounds impact the growth of civilization, the birth of religions, et cetera.

[1919] Like, this wasn't a field before.

[1920] And I think it's been really cool for me to have conversations with folks like Andrew and his colleagues at Yale and elsewhere who are taking this, like, pretty seriously.

[1921] That's very cool.

[1922] And can I ask you this?

[1923] Like, how many vessels have they found that contained Ergot?

[1924] And have they found anything other than Ergot that may be psychoactive?

[1925] Throughout antiquity, yeah.

[1926] Yeah, we found all kinds of things.

[1927] The only positive ergot finds were the ones from Pontos.

[1928] And how many different vessels did they discover that contained it?

[1929] So to the best of my knowledge, they found around 10 miniature cups, and for some reason, they only tested one.

[1930] So only one came up positive for that ergot, in addition to the beer sediment.

[1931] So it was ergot mixed with beer.

[1932] And this was all done archaeobotanically, so there was no chemical analysis.

[1933] This was them using like scanning electron microscope and optical microscopy to look in and find that.

[1934] And so in addition to the cups, the urgot also popped up in a tooth, in a jawbone that was also discovered on site, which adds credence to the hypothesis that there was intentional consumption because within this little domestic chapel where those vessels were found, what they found were two mills for like either grinding wheat or maybe.

[1935] maybe even like fashioning a beer.

[1936] And they didn't find any ergot in the mills.

[1937] So the fact that it was inside this ritual vessel, which is the shape and size of the kind of cup that were used by the devotees of Dionysus in this Hellenistic domestic shrine of sorts, combined with the evidence in the jaw, I mean really led the archaeologist to believe that there was something strong there.

[1938] But I haven't seen an ergot find quite like that anywhere else.

[1939] Do they know of any way that they would cultivate this ergot?

[1940] Is there some sort of a theory as to how they, because ergot's a, it's a fungus, right?

[1941] And they know it grows on wheat, right?

[1942] Yeah, it's more common on rye, but it happens across the cereal grains.

[1943] And as far as we know, it's been happening as long as we've had agriculture, which is at least 12 ,000 years.

[1944] So the big question is what spawned that revolution, the agricultural revolution, was it to start baking bread or to start brewing beer.

[1945] It's actually a pretty good debate that goes back to the 1950s between Sour and Braidwood, these two professors.

[1946] Did we first settle down into a settled life and start growing grain to make bread or to brew beer?

[1947] And there's good reason to suggest that maybe it was actually the beer and this religion of brewing that brought people together in the first place.

[1948] And if you're brewing, then it's foreseeable at the very least, that ergot would pop up on that agriculture.

[1949] Now, does it go back 12 ,000 years?

[1950] We don't know.

[1951] We don't even know if brewing goes back that far.

[1952] I think the oldest evidence for beers are at places like Godin Tepe, which is like 3 ,500 BC.

[1953] And we have some evidence for some kind of brewing at Gobeckley -Tepe, for example, 9th millennium BC.

[1954] And then we have these mortars, these stone mortars in Israel that were dated to around 13 ,000 years ago where at least there's evidence of malting and mashing, if not fermentation.

[1955] So we know that grain goes back a long time.

[1956] The question is how far back does the ergot go with it?

[1957] And when did we discover that ergot had these other capacities?

[1958] Because it's not a very pleasant experience.

[1959] I mean, even to this day, if you're brewing beer, you want to avoid ergot for lots of reasons.

[1960] Well, people have died from ergot poisoning, right?

[1961] Yeah.

[1962] There was a whole village in France that accidentally got ergot poisoned.

[1963] Yeah, the Pont de Spree.

[1964] Yeah.

[1965] And there was an island, Ali Kudi.

[1966] That's a great one.

[1967] There's a great vice article about that, about the ergot poisonings and people seeing witches and people seeing how they.

[1968] Yeah.

[1969] What a weird fucking thing that some fungus that grows on your food causes you to wildly hallucinate and think you're losing your mind.

[1970] and it might have been responsible for the Salem witch trials.

[1971] It's possible.

[1972] Yeah, they think that.

[1973] That's one of those speculations.

[1974] Makes sense.

[1975] There was late frost, apparently, or early frost, rather, which apparently contributes to the growth of Ergod on Rye.

[1976] The Rye wolves.

[1977] You know they're called the Rye W wolves, by the way?

[1978] The Rye Wolves.

[1979] Yeah, they were thought to be, there's a mythology around where the Urgot comes from.

[1980] And in German, there's a lot of different words.

[1981] words for it.

[1982] And they call it like aftercorn and toten corn like death colonel and the mad the mad kernel.

[1983] And they think that it was the the mad wolves running through the fields leaving behind this.

[1984] Oh, wow.

[1985] These hallucinatory fungi.

[1986] That's how much they were scared of wolves.

[1987] I see that.

[1988] Made wolves responsible for tripping too.

[1989] Well, I imagine back then if you were paranoid and tripping, you would really think about wolves.

[1990] You know?

[1991] I mean, back then, that was a real primary concern.

[1992] If you went on a hike, you're by yourself, and all you had is, like, a single -shot musket.

[1993] We're going to go down another wolf's rabbit hole.

[1994] Yeah.

[1995] Did they have the ability, when did they have the ability to recognize what Ergot was, I wonder?

[1996] Like, when did they recognize that, oh, it's this particular part of the grain that's giving us an issue?

[1997] This thing that's on the grain.

[1998] I mean, we figured out ergotism, I mean, at least in the Middle Ages.

[1999] I'm not sure how much further than that.

[2000] But throughout the Middle Ages, there were lots of bouts of ergotism.

[2001] But were there bouts of people using it recreationally?

[2002] Not that, no, not that we know of.

[2003] It was usually accidental.

[2004] That's why it's such a strange fungus.

[2005] Yeah.

[2006] And why the history of its, of the chemical synthesis of LSD is so strange because, you know, Hoffman famously was not looking for LSD.

[2007] Right.

[2008] Right.

[2009] He was working in obstetrics and gynecology.

[2010] He was looking for something to do induce labor.

[2011] Yeah, so it was kind of an accident and didn't realize until years later what he'd synthesized until 1943.

[2012] So before that, I mean, outside that medicinal context, it was typically seen with lots of suspicion.

[2013] It was, I mean, it's toxic, dangerous stuff.

[2014] Yeah, and if it poisons your whole village and everybody starts freaking out.

[2015] Do we have any artwork or anything else that would indicate that there was possibly mushroom consumption?

[2016] I know that exists in some ancient religious artworks.

[2017] There's depictions of mushrooms.

[2018] Is there any of that from any of the ancient Greek periods?

[2019] I never really saw convincing evidence for mushrooms among the ancient Greeks.

[2020] but there are, I mean, there's like neolithic evidence for mushrooms, both in North Africa and then also in Siberia.

[2021] There's the famous pictographs, the mushroom pictographs, the pegtymell.

[2022] Where's that?

[2023] In Siberia, the pegtymell pictographs.

[2024] I wrote an article about this.

[2025] The 1500 BC or the, if you look up, I wrote an article for Big Think that tracks some of the better data that we have across time for this stuff.

[2026] Can't wait to see that.

[2027] Got something?

[2028] Yeah, he found it.

[2029] Interesting.

[2030] Oh, so they have a mushroom over their head.

[2031] Yeah, that's kind of wild.

[2032] Oh.

[2033] And they look at them.

[2034] They look at their tripping balls.

[2035] That's wild.

[2036] And there's mushrooms on the ground there.

[2037] Look at that.

[2038] Animals and the mushrooms.

[2039] I'm sure we, I think we talked.

[2040] talked about this before, McKenna's Stoned Ape Theory, which is very fascinating.

[2041] That picture is crazy, though.

[2042] So that's...

[2043] That's from Siberia.

[2044] Wow.

[2045] Very interesting.

[2046] That those people from thousands of years ago made those drawings of a human figure with a mushroom above its head.

[2047] They're old, too.

[2048] I think it's bronze age.

[2049] I mean, they're pretty old.

[2050] There's an older one in North Africa.

[2051] It's called Tassili Nager.

[2052] So if you, Tassili and then N -apostrophe A, J -J -E -R, that one's even older.

[2053] It could be Neolithic.

[2054] So we're talking several thousands of years, even before the Pectimel.

[2055] It's sort of this B -headed wizard priest.

[2056] It's one of the most famous images.

[2057] This is probably it, but I don't, where's the...

[2058] That's it.

[2059] I guess that's on the cave right there.

[2060] Yeah, that's one of the more famous ones.

[2061] Wow.

[2062] Look how cool that looks.

[2063] So that was found in a painted gallery there.

[2064] And he's got handfuls of mushrooms.

[2065] Yeah, and that's...

[2066] Imagine tripping and seeing that guy.

[2067] Maybe he's there for you.

[2068] But the crazy thing is that image, especially the cleaned -up version of it, it really does look psychedelic, like the geometric patterns.

[2069] It's one of the things that you do see in the psychedelic states is these interconnected geometric patterns that are moving.

[2070] They're always like in motion.

[2071] Like this?

[2072] Yeah.

[2073] You would definitely could do.

[2074] you definitely could see something like that.

[2075] Elsewhere in the Badlands is a rock painting of mushroom men running in ecstasy amidst geometric shapes.

[2076] Where's that one?

[2077] What's that one?

[2078] I don't know.

[2079] I'll see if I can...

[2080] Yeah, see if you can find that one.

[2081] Wow.

[2082] All right.

[2083] The Talisi, Tassili, Tassili Mushroom Shaman.

[2084] So that's six to nine thousand BC.

[2085] Wow.

[2086] Fucking cool.

[2087] That's one of the...

[2088] the oldest ones.

[2089] Well, we know that psilocybin existed back then, and we know that people experimented with food.

[2090] They tried things to see if they're edible.

[2091] Again, that was the basis of McKenna's theory.

[2092] It was that ancient hominids, flipped over cow patties.

[2093] When the rainforest were seeded into grasslands, they tipped over cow patties looking for grubs and beetles and that these mushrooms had grown these cow patties, and surely they would experiment with them.

[2094] Oh, wow.

[2095] Yeah, that's elsewhere in the same region.

[2096] Look at that.

[2097] That's wild.

[2098] That's pretty cool.

[2099] They're just running, tripping.

[2100] They look like they're tripping, too.

[2101] Look at their heads.

[2102] And they look like they're in an ecstatic state, and they're all holding mushrooms.

[2103] Wow.

[2104] So there was a long debate about the relationship between these kinds of images and shamanism and the ritual consumption of psychedelics among rock shelters and cave art. And Graham, Graham Hancock wrote a lot about this, and it's my favorite book of his.

[2105] It's called Supernatural.

[2106] Yeah.

[2107] He looks at all the different K paintings going back 30 ,000, 40 ,000 years.

[2108] And so there was always a long debate about whether or not there was actually some kind of relationship between those painted images, why they were left behind by the priest class of the time and kind of like what engendered them.

[2109] And so it's funny, just after the book came out in the fall, I think it was of 2020, there was a discovery in California related to rock art. And it was hailed as the first unambiguous evidence for the consumption of psychedelics in connection with rock art. It's called the Pinwheel Cave.

[2110] And it got so much press that you can find it pretty easily.

[2111] I think Nat Geo covered it.

[2112] It was headlines for weeks called the Pinwheel Cave.

[2113] There you go.

[2114] It's called that because of the image that's painted in red ochre on the ceiling of the cave.

[2115] You can see him right there.

[2116] It's thought to be the unfurling flower.

[2117] of the Datora, which is this very, very potent, very visionary flower in the Nightshade family, Dutura.

[2118] Dutura is a weird one.

[2119] Mekina talked about Dutura and about how he had to stop taking it because it was too weird that he was having a conversation with a man in a market and he realized in the middle of the conversation that the man thought that they were at home in his living room, that it was so bizarrely transformative in terms of like the way it interfaced with reality that it was just too strange like you would be sort of semi -functional but thinking you're in a completely different place than you are and thinking that it's actually happening this again this is why the history matters like we think you know a lot of the focus over the over recent years has been on the medicinal and therapeutic value of psychedelics and to the extent they can relieve suffering I understand the need for research and the need to they need to assess safety right When you look into history, yeah, like, but there are other ways of using Dutura that seem to have survived in the pinwheel.

[2120] So that was used by the Chumash people, for example.

[2121] And they had a very specific ritual, a ceremony around the use of Dutura that they left, you know, explicit evidence for.

[2122] That doesn't go back.

[2123] That's not prehistoric.

[2124] It's only about 400 years old to the 16th century.

[2125] But they knew what they were doing with Dutura.

[2126] And they're not sure exactly what, but they say there's these great papers written on the Chumash and Dutura saying how they would use it in.

[2127] in order to look beyond the surface of things, and in some cases, to communicate with dead ancestors.

[2128] And you see that a lot, communication with the ancestors.

[2129] And so whether it was some sort of puberty ritual or initiation right, they clearly knew the dosing and correct administration of Dutera.

[2130] And they weren't alone, by the way.

[2131] There were other folks in the Americas.

[2132] My friend Danny Newman has done some awesome research around something called the black drink.

[2133] You have to look up the black drink.

[2134] It's from the Mississippian indigenous communities.

[2135] And there were some studies done a few years ago that tested these vessels.

[2136] You were asking about evidence.

[2137] And so there's, you know, beyond sort of the pictographic evidence, I love looking at the archaeochemical evidence.

[2138] So in addition to the pinwheel site, first unambiguous chemical data for the connection of rock art and psychedelics, a couple years ago, there were some studies, gas chromatography mass spec studies like real proper chemical studies done on the black drink.

[2139] Have you heard of the black drink?

[2140] No. The black drink was used like I said in these Mississippian sites.

[2141] And there was a paper dated some of the finds from like 1 ,100 to 1700 AD, so centuries ago.

[2142] And they came in the, this drink was prepared in these special vessels.

[2143] And sometimes they take these anthropomorphic visuals.

[2144] One is called like the old woman.

[2145] And so within these vessels, they found the evidence not only for Datora, like we just saw the Pinwheel Cave, but for the Yau Pan Hali.

[2146] I think it's the only plant native to North America that's naturally caffeinated.

[2147] It's called the Yau Pan Hali.

[2148] And so it was this caffeinated beverage that definitively had traces of atropine and scopolamine in them.

[2149] And those are the active alkaloids in Duterte.

[2150] The same aqualoids they found through chemical analysis at the pinwheel site.

[2151] So not...

[2152] Skopulamine is a wild one.

[2153] That's a wild one.

[2154] That's wild.

[2155] That's the zombie drug.

[2156] That's the drug that they can literally blow in your face and get you to do their bidding.

[2157] You've heard about that?

[2158] Yeah.

[2159] Colombian drug lords just to use it on people.

[2160] Yeah.

[2161] They blow it in their face.

[2162] Yeah.

[2163] They think that is the root of the concept of zombies.

[2164] That, you know, these people are just, oh.

[2165] Yeah, Wade Davis.

[2166] has written some cool work on me. You know what?

[2167] It's also, like, when you get one of those little patches to avoid seasick, this drama mean, that's a copolomey.

[2168] That's crazy.

[2169] But see, under the right circumstances.

[2170] Right, right dose.

[2171] Yeah, you're not tripping.

[2172] Under the right dose.

[2173] Those drama mean patches and put them all over your fucking body.

[2174] I don't think that's recommended.

[2175] No, it's not.

[2176] I don't recommend it.

[2177] But if you didn't, I bet you'd trip all.

[2178] yeah um but it's um i think if you're thinking about these uh tribal communities and how life was very difficult um in these especially hunter gather communities living off the land um you needed people to have their shit together you couldn't have near do wells when you have 50 people that rely on each other and they all have very specific tasks everyone is responsible for something And you cannot have irresponsible consumption of something that's so profound.

[2179] So it makes sense within their best interest to create a real framework, like the correct way to use this.

[2180] And also this recognition that this is a very profound and powerful experience is not to be taken lightly at all.

[2181] Correct.

[2182] This is not at all recreational.

[2183] This is something that you're going to do because you're going to have a transcendent experience.

[2184] Correct.

[2185] And that's what we lack today.

[2186] That's what we like today.

[2187] And the more you study the ancient past, whether it's in ancient Greece or a lot of my book focuses on paleo -Christian Christianity, the more you see this kind of ritual.

[2188] Can I show you some images of paleo -Christian ritual?

[2189] Yeah.

[2190] Okay, cool.

[2191] I'll do it.

[2192] I love it.

[2193] I love talking to you.

[2194] Okay, cool.

[2195] What do you got?

[2196] Jamie, there should be a folder called Circe.

[2197] Searcy, like the lady from Game of Thrones?

[2198] Like the lady from Game of Thrones, yeah.

[2199] She's my favorite.

[2200] Then you'll get to know her a lot better.

[2201] great character you'll get to know her a lot better shame shame what am i looking for here um it's it's in in my uh my google drive oh no no yeah i have the folder what do you want me to pull up because the first few pictures are just yeah just from the first one yeah we can start with with we can go into the pictures i my point i've just my point it's just words though it's that's fine we can we can move forward from there so what i'm going to show you are some images from a hypogeum And I don't think we got around to this last time.

[2202] But a hypogeum was this underground chamber, and it was the site where most of the early Christian ritual took place.

[2203] So if you think back to paleo -Christianity, between the death of Christ and Constantine, which is 300 years later, give or take, you know, Christianity was this illegal cult.

[2204] It was this underground religion, in some cases literally.

[2205] So the only places where you would celebrate the Eucharist and the Proto Mass were in like small, in private homes, and this Agatha.

[2206] pay meal.

[2207] And then sometimes you'd go underground into these like necropolis, like these places of the dead.

[2208] And that for some reason was the place where the mass was celebrated.

[2209] And so as part of my research for the book, I went into some of these underground chambers to see what the earliest Christians would have seen and some of the evidence that was left behind in terms of like frescoes.

[2210] So there's no botanical chemical analysis of what was happening in these places.

[2211] But we do have images, we have frescoes, and we have the idea of what the early ritual would have looked like.

[2212] And a couple of weeks ago, I reached out to the Vatican specifically to ask them if I could show these images to you today.

[2213] And they said yes.

[2214] All right.

[2215] Thank you, Vatican.

[2216] They're actually...

[2217] Take back all the shit I said about you.

[2218] They're actually, they're great research partners.

[2219] It's the Pontifical Commission for sacred archaeology.

[2220] So it's the archaeological team that is responsible for the preservation and conservation of all these ancient sites.

[2221] And I think it's an aspect of early Christianity that very few people know about.

[2222] And so what was happening underground, if you want to go back to the first slide, just quickly, there was this Yale professor who sadly died in recent years.

[2223] It was Ramsey McMullen.

[2224] And what he talks about are these underground chillouts.

[2225] They were called Vigilia.

[2226] The Latin word for them is refrigerium, where we get the word refrigerator.

[2227] So they were like underground chillouts where certainly the Romans, and it's believed the earliest Christians, would have gone to celebrate the dead with sacramental wine, with celebratory wine.

[2228] They would have a wine ceremony in these dank chambers underground to like usher the dead into the afterlife or bring them refreshment.

[2229] They were called refrigeria.

[2230] And so it's kind of unclear when the refragaria, a pagan Roman ceremony, became like a proto -Eucharistic Christian mass. Like the line, again, the line is very blurred at this period of time, which I call the pagan continuity hypothesis, this notion that the older wine drinking consumption by the Romans, the Greeks before them, somehow influenced, at least in some cases, the earliest celebrations of the mass. And so I just show this quickly to show that, you know, in these wine parties, Ramsey has this great line saying that this was not just picnicking at the bottom there.

[2231] He said, this was religion.

[2232] So even though it looks like a picnic, it looks like they were gathering over like kind of like almost like a Mexican Day of the Dead ceremony.

[2233] Like they would meet by the graveyard to remember the dead and the ancestors.

[2234] Yeah, there was wine and food, but this was religion to the ancient Romans.

[2235] And I think to the Romanized Christians who followed them in the first century.

[2236] second century, third century.

[2237] So the next slide is that's just a bunch more text from a Catholic encyclopedia, by the way, from 1907, if I'm not mistaken.

[2238] And it talks about how the celebration of the dead and this funeral banquet you see right in the middle there, this notion that the funeral banquet is really kind of at the core of what the early mass was, even if you go back to the Gospels, it was, you know, Jesus asking for the commemoration of this event.

[2239] You know, do this in memory of me. As you do this in memory of me, remember my life, death, and eventual resurrection.

[2240] This is sort of the prototype for the Mass. And so it's important to remember that the funeral banquet was there to bind those together who remained faithful to the memory of Jesus after his death.

[2241] It's very similar to this Roman refrigerium.

[2242] So I give all that as background just to show you the first couple images from the hypogeum.

[2243] So if you skip to the next one, so that's what it looks like when you go underground.

[2244] there was it was discovered in 1919 I think as a fiat shop around the corner was trying to expand into a sunken garage they came across these these monuments which is not uncommon in Greece and Italy and around the Mediterranean so they found this this hypogee which dates to the third century AD so we don't have firm dates it could be anywhere from like 220 to 250 AD so this is the time period we're talking about.

[2245] So these were tombs.

[2246] They're rock -cut tombs in the hypodium here.

[2247] If you go to the next one, one of the first things I saw when I went into the hypojum was this, which, you know, it's a little strange because, again, you're trying to figure out if this is a Roman pagan refrigerium or if this is a Christian celebration of some sort of Eucharist.

[2248] Because, again, this site is controlled by the Vatican.

[2249] The Vatican has preserved this for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for reasons.

[2250] And, you know, it's been said by the Pontifical Commission that these are some of the most explicit and concrete evidence for the origins of Christianity.

[2251] So this is, you know, whether this is purely pagan or Christian is sort of a moment of debate.

[2252] But, you know, if you just look at it, what's odd is that you see 12 people gathered around a table.

[2253] And when you think of 12 people gathered around a table, you think of something like the Last Supper.

[2254] And so it's pretty clear that what's important to this dinner is the chalice that's being lifted by the servant there.

[2255] Or maybe it's a priest of some sort.

[2256] So it's clear that whatever is happening, wine is important to this gathering of 12 people.

[2257] The interesting part is the woman who's appearing in the back.

[2258] If you look closely, there's sort of like this effigy of a woman descending exactly, from the background to the foreground.

[2259] It's thought that she is Aurelia prima.

[2260] And Aurelia was one of the dead women to whom the hypogeum was dedicated.

[2261] And so what they think is, that's her, this is one of the Vatican's interpretations, is that that's her emerging from the world of the dead to take place in this funeral banquet, in this ceremony.

[2262] So we're not really sure.

[2263] How do they interpret that?

[2264] Because she's not seated at the table, and because what they think this is, is that whenever, especially because of the place that we're in, which is underground, that when wine is being served at a refrigerium, that the Romans would habitually do this in order to commune with the dead, not as a picnic, but as religion, as Ramsey McMullen says.

[2265] So this was their religion for keeping alive that relationship to the dead and refreshing the dead in the afterlife.

[2266] And when you went there to celebrate them, they would appear.

[2267] And Ramsey has this great line in his scholarship where he says, the dead themselves participated.

[2268] One of my favorite lines in his research, the dead themselves participated.

[2269] So that that's Aurelia participating in a funeral banquet that's happening underground.

[2270] Okay, so if we go to the next slide, so again, unclear if that's Christian or pagan.

[2271] And then you see some of these images.

[2272] That's interpreted as Jesus as the Good Shepherd from the Gospel of John.

[2273] You see the goats down below.

[2274] So that's, and this is, that's either interpreted as St. Paul or Plotinus.

[2275] Plotinus was this neoplatonic philosopher who lived around that time in the third century.

[2276] And so it's unclear if that's St. Paul or Platinus, or maybe it's Paul using the image of Plotinus to call up the imagery.

[2277] And again, everything is very ambiguous because Christianity is illegal.

[2278] So you don't go down there and paint very explicit images of Jesus or the Last Supper or Christian elements because you could get in trouble for that, obviously.

[2279] So there's a lot of ambiguity in these frescoes.

[2280] goes.

[2281] So if you move past that, this is the most important one, which is kind of a kind of mind -boggling.

[2282] So this is just to the right of that banquet scene.

[2283] And it's called the Homeric fresco.

[2284] And it's called the Homeric fresco, because it seems to portray a very famous scene from Homer's Odyssey.

[2285] And it's when Odysseus is stuck on the island with Circe, the witch with her, and the three dudes you see there on the bottom to the left have just been transformed from pigs back into men.

[2286] It's one of the most famous scenes in Book 10 of the Odyssey where Circe delivers a potion.

[2287] She concocks a potion, and in Greek it says that the verb they use for concoct the potion is just like the ancient potion at a lusis.

[2288] This is one of the mythical precedents for what would become the actual kukyon that was used in the Elyssenian Mysteries.

[2289] So she uses this mythical kukyuan in which she cast these drugs.

[2290] It says that she puts drugs into this potion to transform the men into pigs, then back to men.

[2291] And so it's a very, I mean, like of all the 27 ,000 and changed lines of the Odyssey and the Iliad, it's a particularly strange image to evoke from Homer.

[2292] Because Circe, amongst all the many things she's famous for is for being a witch and for having this profound knowledge of the botanical world and potions and things that we might call psychedelics today.

[2293] And so it's a really strange image to have there.

[2294] And so the Vatican produced this monograph over a decade ago where one of their scholars, Alexia Latini, goes over this in great detail to demonstrate why exactly this is Circe.

[2295] And up above, that's another image of Circe with all her animals on this magical island.

[2296] And what they found there, exactly, was Cinebar.

[2297] And during the conservation process, they were able to identify the mercury sulfide that had been used to paint this red image of Cinebar around the house, which is a very telling detail because there's a line just before this in the Odyssey where it talks about the fiery smoke coming out of CERC's Palace.

[2298] So between the fiery smoke and the Cinebar and the web down below, there's a lot of certainty that this is probably Searcy.

[2299] If you go to the next slide.

[2300] Can I ask you, what are those people laying down?

[2301] If you zoom in on Searcy?

[2302] Yeah.

[2303] Up above?

[2304] What are those people laying down?

[2305] Yeah, that's supposed to represent.

[2306] That's the interpretation from the monograph is that that's some sort of funeral beer.

[2307] Oh, so those are dead people.

[2308] That could be dead people, yeah, which is also strange.

[2309] What's that?

[2310] Satan.

[2311] That we can't make out.

[2312] So the loom was another tell -tale sign.

[2313] So there's the fiery smoke at the palace, and the loom is another tell -tale sign.

[2314] So this is, if it were just this, you would think, okay, maybe it's just Circe and a loom.

[2315] But if you go to the next slide, there's a, and the next one, yeah, there's a manuscript in the, in the Pope's library called the Vergisianian.

[2316] Vercilius Vaticanus.

[2317] You can find this online.

[2318] In the Vergilius Vaticanus manuscript, which is from about 400 to 430 AD, there's this picture of CERC and the loom, which corresponds to CERC and the loom on the right.

[2319] So they know for sure, you know, with relative certainty, at least, that there's some image continuity between CERC and the loom.

[2320] And she's talked about in the ancient literature as always being at the loom.

[2321] So the confidence is rising.

[2322] This is...

[2323] And for folks who don't know what a loom is, it's how you create cloth with threads.

[2324] Some people, you know.

[2325] Yeah, that's true.

[2326] So with this, if you're just listening to this, what she has, is like if you've ever seen people make cloth in a traditional way with a loom, she's got the, why did they depict her with a loom?

[2327] Why was she known as a person who makes cloth?

[2328] Because that's what Homer said.

[2329] That's what Homer says in his epic poetry.

[2330] And that's what Virgil also says in his epic poetry.

[2331] So Homer writes the Odyssey, centuries later, Virgil writes the Aeneid.

[2332] That's sort of the mythical founding of Rome, the main character, Enneas.

[2333] In both versions, there's a Searcy character.

[2334] So this Searcy character survives for centuries in the ancient world, from the Greek to the Latin.

[2335] And in both cases, the loom is mentioned.

[2336] And also, what's mentioned in these passages are the fact that Circe uses potent herbs.

[2337] in the Latin says potentibus herbis.

[2338] So she's using potent herbs and mixing up potions to transform these men into pigs and vice versa.

[2339] So like it's a very, it's a very strange idea to have a pagan witch in a fresco that's been preserved in this paleo -Christian monument combined with this this refrigerium sort of eucharistic celebration of the dead.

[2340] And then in the last few images, what it depicts is a woman being initiated into these high mysteries.

[2341] So things you don't normally associate with early Christianity.

[2342] Jamie, there's just in the last slide real quick, I just want to show you this image of the woman.

[2343] So there are three different chambers in the hypogeum.

[2344] If you go back a couple, and I'll show you these two in a second.

[2345] Yeah, there, that's fine.

[2346] So that circle, that's on the ceiling of one of the final chambers.

[2347] And there was a German scholar, Himmelman, in the 1970s, who attempted to interpret that image.

[2348] And he says it's some kind of initiation typical of Dionysian or Elyucinian initiation.

[2349] He says the way the wand is held is typical to what you might find with the god Dionysus.

[2350] And true enough, if you look around at different artifacts, there's the Borghese vase on the left, which is from about 40 BC.

[2351] It's now in the Louvre.

[2352] You see the Thyrsus, the wand, above.

[2353] of the head of the initiate, who's dropped his sacramental cup.

[2354] And on the right, that's the Bill of the Mysteries in Pompeii, which goes back 2 ,000 years, obviously.

[2355] And again, you see this notion of the wand over the head of the initiate.

[2356] So you have a female initiate, which is, you know, calling forth images of pagan, El Eucinian, Dionysian initiation, next to an image of Circe, a pagan witch, next to this image of this refrigerian banquet, and it's all very ambiguous.

[2357] Why would a Christian descend into these chambers to celebrate these wine mysteries with the dead?

[2358] And as you go outside the hippogium to other catacombs around Rome, I mean, just quickly, in 30 seconds, I can show you other images of different women consecrating the wine.

[2359] Yeah, that way.

[2360] Yeah, and the next way.

[2361] Yeah, that's perfect.

[2362] So you see in Latin there, it's written Agape, Miske Nobis.

[2363] So they think that's Agape is the woman's name.

[2364] Miske Nobis is mix it, mix it for us.

[2365] So what they're saying is not pour the wine for us, but mix it up for us, Agape.

[2366] And Agape is a very Greek word.

[2367] It means love.

[2368] And so you find all these Greek connotations, despite the fact that we're in Italy.

[2369] If you look at the next one, it's very similar.

[2370] It says Irenae da calda.

[2371] Irene, Irene could be another Greek name.

[2372] It means peace.

[2373] And just like Miske nobies mix it up for us, you see da calda.

[2374] We don't really know what calda is, but if you go to the next slide, there was a scholar.

[2375] Yeah, there's some great text here.

[2376] He tries to interpret what calda is.

[2377] It's not certain.

[2378] It seems to have been more than an infusion.

[2379] Apparently it was a mixture of hot water, wine, and drugs.

[2380] Wow.

[2381] So the question becomes, what kind of potions?

[2382] were being mixed in these underground chambers.

[2383] This is at a different catacomb of Marchellinus and Pietro.

[2384] I showed you the hypogium.

[2385] And so there's, you know, this, these were the places where wine was being consumed by paleo -Christian Christians and antiquity.

[2386] And I think it's fascinating.

[2387] It is.

[2388] And it raises lots of questions.

[2389] A lot.

[2390] But it only makes sense.

[2391] We know those compounds existed.

[2392] And we know that people take those compounds and have these profound experiences.

[2393] And when you had no explanation for that, and you didn't know, like, how it was, you know, interfering or interacting with the human mind and what chemicals they were, and, like, of course you would, you would lean on those.

[2394] I mean, you would probably, that would be, like, the primary source of some sort of an attempt of understanding the great mystery of the life.

[2395] Mm -hmm.

[2396] This makes sense.

[2397] And the dead are, remember, the dead are participating.

[2398] That's what I know.

[2399] It's a funeral banquet.

[2400] And you see this time and again in these ancient mysteries, this notion of a funeral banquet and the ritual consumption of powerful compounds.

[2401] McKenna believed that when you entered into psychedelic states, you'd enter into a well of souls, disembodied souls.

[2402] Or it was at least theorized.

[2403] That was like one of his thoughts, like that that's what you were experiencing.

[2404] Hmm.

[2405] Yeah, it's the same with, it's the same with Dionysus, actually.

[2406] And this notion of, sort of the Greek Halloween was called, Antheistaria.

[2407] And there was this, this ritual of uncorking the wine jugs.

[2408] And out of them, you would see different, different spirits and entities fly out.

[2409] So there's something, there's something, there's, the dead participated.

[2410] The dead, the dead, the dead themselves participated.

[2411] it um so it i mean i i find the iconography like really interesting like having gone to catholic school my whole life because you don't you don't really hear about the hypogeum no you don't hear about paleo christianity much actually well what is the the source of the eucharist what's the original eucharist uh body of christ i mean well in in the book i i i explore the potential greek origin of that at least at least in some communities i mean the notion of of the notion of consuming the body and blood was, you know, that wasn't born like 2 ,000 years ago with Jesus.

[2412] There, you know, even the blood of Dionysus, the wine of Dionysus is called the blood by Timothyus of Miletus 400 years before Jesus.

[2413] So this notion that wine is blood and should be consumed in this sacramental fashion, I mean, that was, that had been around for, for a while.

[2414] And this notion of theophagy, right?

[2415] You see this in lots of different world cultures, the consuming of the God to become the God.

[2416] And in the Greek world, Theophagy really takes its place with Dionysus and these mysteries, much more so than the Elysinian mysteries that we talked about.

[2417] And so for the ancient Greeks, like to imbibe the wine was to imbibe the God, the God Dionysus.

[2418] And so the question becomes, was Dionysus the God of wine, or was Dionysus, the god of intoxication, right, and psychotropic plants or fungi or poisons or medicine, because the wine of the time, like we've talked about, was routinely mixed with different plants and compounds.

[2419] And so the enthusiasm that resulted from drinking that wine was, it's been described as like the central aspect of Greek tragedy, for example.

[2420] Like when we saw the theater of Dionysus on the southern slope of the Acropolis, they think that that wine was consumed there, in another way to experience communion with Dionysus.

[2421] The wine at the theater was called Trimma.

[2422] And Trimma in Greek means like rubbed or pounded.

[2423] And Professor Ruck, for example, thinks that it's, you know, it signified the different things that were pounded, rubbed into the wine to create this sort of mass possession that took place at the theater.

[2424] Between the live audience and the actors, between the actors and the dead persons, in some cases, that they were, they were acting out, remember?

[2425] I mean, we take it for granted now, but to stand on stage and, you know, spew out lines that belong to a dead person is like closer to necromancy than entertainment.

[2426] So that was a trippy thing to begin with.

[2427] So you combine that together with this tremor wine and this very sacred ritual, it goes well beyond the bounds of entertainment.

[2428] Like for them, there was a religious purpose to the theater and to comedy and to tragedy.

[2429] Wow.

[2430] it's so it's so interesting you would love more concrete evidence of what they consumed other than this one vessel which is it's very interesting and it's it makes sense that one vessel contained ergot and that this would lead you to believe that this was a part of what they were doing yeah but it's not enough for me either i mean that that's what that's what i've been doing with my time the past couple years thank god you're doing it i'm not convinced either i'm not convinced i'm i'm i try and be a real skeptic about this.

[2431] That's good.

[2432] I try and be a genuine skeptic.

[2433] There's this incredibly compelling piece of data from Spain, from Hellenistic Spain, what is today's Spain, 2200 years ago.

[2434] I would love to find something in Greece.

[2435] I'd love to find something at Elusis.

[2436] This was part of my presentation for the Elusis symposium a couple weeks ago.

[2437] What kind of artifacts do we possess or do people possess from Elusis?

[2438] I asked this question of the archaeologists on site there, of the government folks, and there's an American School of Classical Studies, too, which has been excavating in the area for decades, obviously.

[2439] So, the last time I went to Elusis to ask Poppy about this, they have a lot of different vessels, actually.

[2440] I'll show you.

[2441] Jamie, if you want to go into the Elusis file, I think it's the first file up there.

[2442] And I think we see an image of you, by the way.

[2443] Oh, really?

[2444] Yeah.

[2445] And then there'll be some vessels we can look at.

[2446] Okay.

[2447] So there's lots of different, there's you first.

[2448] That's me at that site.

[2449] I was freaking out.

[2450] I kind of was.

[2451] I remember walking around it just feeling so strange.

[2452] Yeah, what was going on that day?

[2453] Well, I knew where I was, which you always have to take into account, right?

[2454] I knew that this was supposedly the site where these people, well, not supposedly.

[2455] This was the site where these people had these experience.

[2456] and there was something about that site whether or not you believe that places have memory they certainly feel like they do and that that place felt like there was a memory attached to it in some strange way like a lot of memory that there was a there's something very profound had happened there but maybe that was because I knew something very profound had happened there but there was quite a long moment like five or ten minutes where I was just standing there under that thing just like feeling it yeah that was the that's the plutonion so that's that's the mouth of hell where Persephone would emerge from the underworld and you were you were locked in there for a while I was just trying to empty my head and just try to figure out how much of this is just suggestion and bullshit you know you're a good skeptic too well you have to be otherwise you'll buy into your own nonsense yeah you know and I was trying to figure out what is this like what's this feeling that I have here it's very intense but it's also also an incredible place to be just to even if the feeling didn't happen like just to know that you're there in this place where these people have these experiences and the wonder of what was it like you know could imagine if you had the ability to travel back in time to any point in in human history Where would you go?

[2457] I can only choose one?

[2458] Yeah, just one.

[2459] Maybe the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

[2460] Ooh.

[2461] Just to find out if it really happened?

[2462] What if it didn't?

[2463] Would you tell anybody?

[2464] That would be in big trouble.

[2465] Yeah.

[2466] I think I would choose ancient Egypt.

[2467] What do you want to see?

[2468] I want to see the construction of the pyramids.

[2469] Huh.

[2470] I want to see why.

[2471] I want to see what was civilization like back then.

[2472] I want to see what's the real timeline.

[2473] Like, what are we really looking at?

[2474] Are we really looking at 2 ,500 BC?

[2475] Are we looking at 10 ,000, 20 ,000 BC?

[2476] Like, what are we looking at?

[2477] They don't really know.

[2478] It's a lot of guesswork, especially when you're dealing with, you know, you can't carbon date stone.

[2479] But just knowing the construction, the expertise that was involved, it appears the use of some sort of a drill.

[2480] There was like some things that cored, stone, some things that cut stone, they have no understanding of how these people were able to do this.

[2481] Just the scope, just the scale of the construction, the massive stones, you know, the obelisks, these enormous things that were cut from quarries hundreds of miles away and somehow another transported and assembled into this thing that we wouldn't be able to do today, no matter what anybody tells you.

[2482] I certainly wouldn't be able to do in a human lifetime.

[2483] 2 ,300 ,000 stones, some weighing upwards of 50 to 80 tons, hundreds of miles away, carted through the mountains, no clear roads.

[2484] How do you get them down?

[2485] What are you doing?

[2486] How'd you get them?

[2487] What'd you do?

[2488] That's, to me, the big one.

[2489] Have you spent time there?

[2490] No. No, we were supposed to do both in this one trip.

[2491] That's too much.

[2492] It's too much.

[2493] Yeah, you have young kids.

[2494] You don't want to fucking freak out.

[2495] I go home and see my friends.

[2496] You know, you don't want to drag kids away for too long.

[2497] But I think it was important for them to see the ruins, you know, to see Delos and to see all these other different places and to just take in, just see a place where people used to live and thrive and then they didn't.

[2498] You know, and now you're walking around these areas.

[2499] And, and, but to me, Egypt, it's because it's so, it's so above and beyond everything else that exists in terms of just this.

[2500] the scale of the construction.

[2501] What did they do?

[2502] When you see the Great Pyraman of Giza, it's just like, what did they do?

[2503] How did they do this?

[2504] Who, who, why?

[2505] What was the purpose?

[2506] You know, there's been all the speculation that at one point in time that was a burial chamber for a pharaoh, but there's no evidence of that.

[2507] So what is it?

[2508] And why and how?

[2509] Put it on the agenda for next summer.

[2510] Yeah, and even then, you're just going to be walking around freaking out.

[2511] which I think is great but I would if there was a place that you could go back in time and see one thing that would do the thing that I would see.

[2512] There was a recent study on a psychedelic potion out of Egypt for the first time.

[2513] Remember we talked about some of the first unambiguous evidence for psychedelics in rock art and this Mississippian site I think it was only earlier this year actually Jamie if you want to look up It's a great Google term.

[2514] Psychedelic blood cocktail.

[2515] Psychedelic blood cocktail and maybe Egypt.

[2516] Oh, there it is.

[2517] They drank a gnarly brew of hallucinogenic drugs and human blood.

[2518] Whoa.

[2519] The drink also contained a few secret ingredients like vaginal mucus.

[2520] How do you know that?

[2521] Look at that, dude.

[2522] That looks like the kind of guy you'd see if you drank blood and psychedelics.

[2523] That's B -E -S.

[2524] B -E -S.

[2525] That seems like the dude.

[2526] Bess was the giver of oracles and dreams, and it was thought that you would consume this beverage and go into an incubation at his temple.

[2527] Wow.

[2528] Which was not too different from Greek incubation temples.

[2529] Look at this.

[2530] He was described as part dwarfish, part feline.

[2531] Yeah.

[2532] Best followers believed he could provide protection from danger while simultaneously averting harm and being able with his powers to prevent evil.

[2533] So like all cults, Bess heads, were required to drink some gnarly stuff rather than the classic poisoned Kool -Aid, though.

[2534] The members of this sect guzzled a mysterious liquid from ceramic vessels decorated with the effigy or the head of Bess, known as Bess vases.

[2535] The Bess figure was revered as a protective genius.

[2536] It might be assumed that this liquid drunk from these mugs might be considered beneficent.

[2537] Interesting.

[2538] So what do they find that's in these things?

[2539] Well, so it came from Tampa, which is crazy.

[2540] Like, there wasn't, I mean, at some point it was in Egypt, but they had this vessel sitting around.

[2541] In Tampa, Florida?

[2542] In Tampa, Florida.

[2543] Oh, whoa.

[2544] From the second century BC, which is why the science is so interesting.

[2545] These can be vessels that sit in museums for decades, and they still preserve these compounds.

[2546] So they did liquid chromatography, tandem mess spec, this chemical analysis.

[2547] And what they found, a number of different things.

[2548] The mucus was because they did proteomics as well.

[2549] They did a human protein analysis.

[2550] And they found something.

[2551] it was either mucus or other human body fluids.

[2552] That's why they call it the second dog blood cocktail.

[2553] Why do you think it was vaginal mucus?

[2554] Because that's one of the possibilities is either oral or vaginal mucus.

[2555] Why would they go with vaginal?

[2556] Because it's a good headline.

[2557] But it seems like spit would be more likely.

[2558] I would say spit.

[2559] It seems like.

[2560] I'm going to say spit and blood.

[2561] Getting the vaginal mucus seems like that's like a big ordeal.

[2562] But was there any indication of why they chose vaginal?

[2563] Why they would even say?

[2564] Not that I know of beyond the proteomic analysis.

[2565] Because that seems like...

[2566] I know.

[2567] It's a weird leap.

[2568] You find mucus.

[2569] Like, how much difference is mucus from spit to vaginal mucus?

[2570] In addition to mucus.

[2571] Yeah.

[2572] Because we know that people spit and fermented beverages.

[2573] Right.

[2574] You know?

[2575] Right.

[2576] Like, there's certain alcoholic beverages that the women will chew up certain things and spit them into a vessel and then people drink it.

[2577] It aids in the fermentation, right?

[2578] Hmm.

[2579] And that's what that could have happened here, too.

[2580] They found evidence of fermentation, probably grape.

[2581] So this is some kind of wine cocktail.

[2582] And in addition, they found the chemical signifiers for Nimfaya Karolaya, which is the blue water lily.

[2583] And they also found Peganum Harmala or seeds that either came from like the Syrian Rue.

[2584] Seeds from Syrian Rue or Paghanam Harmel.

[2585] Isn't that an M .A .O inhibitor?

[2586] Correct.

[2587] Okay.

[2588] Yeah, correct.

[2589] Harmala.

[2590] Yeah.

[2591] Okay.

[2592] So they were taking something, and then, so it was very similar to ayahuasca in that regard, because an M .A .O. inhibitor would be something that would allow at least dimethylophthalmine to be orally active.

[2593] If that's what was happening here.

[2594] But I think blue water lily is orally active.

[2595] So it's unclear what the...

[2596] Maybe it made it more profound.

[2597] Maybe.

[2598] So blue water lily, what is that supposed to be like?

[2599] There have been some recreations of that.

[2600] There's a great YouTube called Sacred Weeds.

[2601] If you ever look at sacred weeds, it's a lot of fun.

[2602] It's from like...

[2603] So many rabbit holes you go down on YouTube.

[2604] It's amazing.

[2605] There's so many to go down.

[2606] Also, five terrifying Dator trips.

[2607] You have to look at some point.

[2608] That's one of my favorites.

[2609] Yeah, Datora.

[2610] So this water lily, what is it supposed to be like?

[2611] I don't think, again, this is where dosing comes in.

[2612] The Sacred Weed series, it was a series in the UK.

[2613] They tried to recreate this.

[2614] And obviously, they got the dosing wrong.

[2615] Um, so I think...

[2616] Were they ineffective?

[2617] Is that way to say obviously they got the dosing wrong?

[2618] Yeah, because if you look at the participants, it's really funny.

[2619] They get kind of giddy and euphoric at some point, but they don't have anything, uh, hallucinatory.

[2620] Did they take it with Harmala?

[2621] Uh, no, no. They weren't doing the psychedelic blood cocktail.

[2622] Okay.

[2623] They were just doing the...

[2624] Just the water lily.

[2625] Maybe the water lily has to be taken with Harmala to have the profound effects, the M .A .O. Inhibitor.

[2626] It makes sense.

[2627] This is why the science matters.

[2628] Yeah.

[2629] Yeah.

[2630] Not because we want to recreate blood cocktails, but...

[2631] Of course, but we do.

[2632] So it seems like there's a lot of vessels that could be tested if we're aware of these vessels.

[2633] Everywhere.

[2634] Yeah, and they haven't been studied.

[2635] Some are sitting in museums in Tampa.

[2636] Some are sitting in new, fresh dig sites.

[2637] Some are sitting in museums in Greece and Italy.

[2638] Oh, look at that, dude.

[2639] That's the best vessel, second century BC.

[2640] Can I get a recreation of that on eBay?

[2641] Does somebody make that?

[2642] That seems dope.

[2643] I want to drink my coffee out of that.

[2644] Someone's got to make Joe a best vessel.

[2645] Fuck, yeah.

[2646] For coffee in the morning, that'll be a way to start your day off correctly.

[2647] He's spitting it?

[2648] Drink out of that?

[2649] No, I wouldn't do that.

[2650] Drink out of that guy's head.

[2651] Drinking out of that guy's head would be pretty fucking cool.

[2652] So with this blue water lily and this, so they know that those two things were in there, Harmala and Blue Water Lily.

[2653] Was there anything else other than fermentation?

[2654] So presumably some alcohol.

[2655] There was some alcohol.

[2656] We're not sure in what amounts.

[2657] There was just some evidence of fermentation.

[2658] Aside from the harmala and the blue water with lily, and maybe some honey.

[2659] Which was also used as a preservative for psychedelics.

[2660] It was one of the ways that they preserved mushrooms.

[2661] They had preserved mushrooms and honey.

[2662] Yeah, and that shows up a lot in some of these ancient potions.

[2663] The combination, in fact, of potassium gluconate is the chemical.

[2664] signifier for that.

[2665] And they often find that with tartaric acid, which shows wine and calcium oxalate, which shows beer.

[2666] And so you see these, Pat McGovern did a few studies on that, which shows sort of like this beer, wine, mead concoction.

[2667] And he famously recreated one called the Midas Touch with the dogfish head brewery, the Midas Touch.

[2668] Oh, interesting.

[2669] That was their version.

[2670] How is it?

[2671] Any good?

[2672] Yeah, it's great.

[2673] That's great.

[2674] Has there been any talk of these vessels that we do know are available of running studies on those?

[2675] Yes.

[2676] So this is, this is this is at least part of what Andrew Coe wants to do at the YelP Body Museum.

[2677] I mean, he's already sitting on thousands and thousands of samples from all over the Mediterranean that haven't been properly assayed.

[2678] And within...

[2679] They're all filled with drugs.

[2680] I mean, you know...

[2681] Boy, that would rewrite everything.

[2682] Yeah.

[2683] No matter what they're filled with.

[2684] And again, his job's not to look for drugs.

[2685] He's looking for ancient organics.

[2686] He's such a good academic.

[2687] I love how you bring it back down to normal.

[2688] Joe, focus Focus Thank you The science Thank you Thank you Thank you But it could be It could be fragrance or medicine Sure Let's find out what's in there Incense Kifi Incense His famous Egyptian incense He famously found The Tel Cabri wine And they announced that in 2014 From Galilee At Telcabri It was wine Mixed with all kinds of things We talked about last time I think Like honey and Storax and Tarabinth, Cyprus, cedar, cinnamon, all kinds of fun things.

[2689] So, like, he's been able to show that wines of the time were routinely mixed with different things.

[2690] You're seeing the blood cocktail.

[2691] You're seeing the Dator use at Pinwheel, and you're seeing the black drink in the Mississippian sites.

[2692] I mean, this is all relatively known.

[2693] We didn't discuss that too deeply.

[2694] Like, what was the black drink made with?

[2695] Datora and Yalpon -Hiley.

[2696] And that was the caffeine.

[2697] And what does it look like, this Yopan Holly?

[2698] Is it a fruit?

[2699] Is it a leaf?

[2700] It's a plant.

[2701] It's a plant.

[2702] And it contains caffeine.

[2703] Yeah, I found something.

[2704] I was trying to bring it up, but I didn't get to it yet.

[2705] Its scientific name is something interesting.

[2706] Ilex vomitoria.

[2707] Yeah.

[2708] Oh.

[2709] Which makes you puke.

[2710] It was a purgative, apparently.

[2711] Ooh.

[2712] Right.

[2713] Like a lot of these are.

[2714] Yeah.

[2715] Yeah.

[2716] Yeah.

[2717] You purge and then you have this experience.

[2718] Interesting.

[2719] Interesting.

[2720] So Datora and caffeine mixed together.

[2721] Is it a high dose of caffeine?

[2722] Six times as high as a cup of coffee almost.

[2723] Whoa.

[2724] Whoa.

[2725] It's the only caffeinated plant found in North America, I think is what I read too.

[2726] Right.

[2727] Is there any history of humans using it other than in that fashion?

[2728] Like people eat it?

[2729] The Yopanthali?

[2730] Yeah, like they do when they chew cocoa leaves in order to get energy.

[2731] You can find YouTube videos of people making like a caffeinated tea today.

[2732] People know how to manipulate.

[2733] It sounds like you can fucking kill yourself with that kind of caffeine tea.

[2734] Right?

[2735] There you go.

[2736] That's what it looks like.

[2737] So it's little berries, huh?

[2738] Yeah.

[2739] Plants and so is the fruit of the tree what gives you caffeine, or is it the leaves?

[2740] I think it's the leaves.

[2741] It's like North American matte.

[2742] Oh, interesting.

[2743] Have you tried this?

[2744] No. It says Yop -on -Holly drink for sale.

[2745] Yeah, I'm trying to see what.

[2746] Oh, you could buy it?

[2747] I would imagine someone knows that you could.

[2748] Black drink?

[2749] Yeah.

[2750] Go shopping.

[2751] Click the shopping link.

[2752] Just go shopping for Yop on Holly.

[2753] Interesting.

[2754] There it is.

[2755] Interesting.

[2756] So you can get it as a tea online.

[2757] I wonder if it's legit.

[2758] Because it seems like that would be like super potent.

[2759] Like they'd have to tell you.

[2760] It's like a monster energy drink in one little tiny cup, right?

[2761] Wouldn't it be?

[2762] What does it say there, Jamie, for caffeine content?

[2763] That's what I was looking for.

[2764] It doesn't say on that.

[2765] that part of it.

[2766] It says it makes a half gallon, that little thing that I could concentrate like cold buromo, I'm guessing.

[2767] Oh, interesting.

[2768] So you make a half gallon out of that one little thing.

[2769] You have to mix it up.

[2770] So it seems like we have a wealth of things to test for, but a scarcity of tests that have actually been run.

[2771] And a scarcity of testers, which is why Andrew Coe's work is so important to support.

[2772] And as a result of, conversations like this and the book coming out where we're launching a foundation called the Athanatos Foundation, which means immortal in Greek.

[2773] And part of the genesis behind that foundation is to help to support different work like this, which is largely unfunded and unacknowledged.

[2774] So there aren't many archaeochemists doing the work that Andrew's doing, which I think is super important for reconstituting some of this really cool history.

[2775] I mean, a lot of which is just emerging in the past couple years.

[2776] Like a lot of the things we're discussing are things that It came out after the book was published.

[2777] So there's a lot of cool work.

[2778] And again, between the sciences and the humanities, you know, people who are textualists and like to compare this, folklorist, anthropologists, there's a lot of disciplines that can converge on these studies.

[2779] And in addition to the work at Yale, there's been a lot of interest at Harvard, too, around psychedelic studies outside the clinical setting, which is really cool.

[2780] So not only at the Harvard Divinity School, but Harvard Law School.

[2781] school and the faculties of arts and sciences.

[2782] They have a humanity center there.

[2783] And I'm just about to launch actually a series of fellowships together with Michael Pollan between Harvard and Berkeley to continue looking at these kinds of questions, again, outside the clinical setting.

[2784] So looking with a lens of the social sciences and the humanities, historians, anthropologists, you know, cultural criticism, you name it, like taking a look at these kinds of studies from very different lenses to see what we can learn about the ways that our ancestors interact it with the natural world.

[2785] So speaking of Michael Pollan, how's the caffeine treat you?

[2786] Did it do anything for you?

[2787] I definitely feel it.

[2788] Yeah?

[2789] Yeah.

[2790] Do you feel it differently than you used to?

[2791] I mean, I'm much more awake.

[2792] Yeah.

[2793] I've been feeling very sleepy recently.

[2794] Yeah?

[2795] Yeah, I feel, I feel much more awake.

[2796] You got to get you healthy, Brian.

[2797] I know, man. I'm going to put you on a schedule.

[2798] I'm going to change your diet.

[2799] That's what's most important.

[2800] Yeah.

[2801] Yeah.

[2802] People think of their diet as just stuff they eat that taste good.

[2803] I think you really have to think of it as the literal foundation of your structure as a biological organism.

[2804] I mean, any nutrients that I do get are fully thanks to my wife.

[2805] If it were up to me, I'd eat accidentally.

[2806] I mean, yeah, because she's a great cook.

[2807] She's very concerned about nutrition for me and the girls.

[2808] If it's just me, I would eat peanut butter all day.

[2809] Oh, that's not good.

[2810] I know.

[2811] I know.

[2812] That's the problem with a lot of intellectuals.

[2813] I know.

[2814] They spend so much time thinking and not enough time thinking about their body.

[2815] You think of the mind.

[2816] is being separate from the body, but it's not.

[2817] It's all one thing.

[2818] And if the body works better, the mind works better.

[2819] All right, I'll get on the regime.

[2820] Please, please.

[2821] I want to keep you healthy.

[2822] When I hear about people taking so long to recover from COVID, the primary thing that I always ask them, do you take vitamins?

[2823] It's almost always no. At the time, it was kind of a no. Yeah.

[2824] I take more now than I did, but...

[2825] But even now, you're not taking enough.

[2826] No, not really.

[2827] We've got to get you into that.

[2828] So what's interesting also is you took a long time to write this book, The Immortality Key.

[2829] You took a long time researching this.

[2830] And I know that there was a lot of questions about how this would be received and whether or not it would be commercially successful.

[2831] But it's been so successful that they ran out of copies, like really quickly, right?

[2832] They fucked up, right?

[2833] I'm not sure if I can say that.

[2834] but yeah let's just let's say kindly they underestimated the demand i think the demand was underestimated yeah following our conversation in september 2020 yeah yeah um i didn't expect that either and there were lots of issues with with printers and the pandemic yeah it was hard to get copies out and so a lot of people actually turn to the audible for for that reason and to this day like the audible is outselling the hard copy like almost two to one people like to listen well you're very good at it the audible's excellent because you read it it's really good it's a fantastic but i've read it twice i've read it twice i've listened to it twice really yes thanks man yeah all the way through twice thank you it's really good man it's like you know it's so compelling and detailed and fascinating and it really opens up people's imagination to the roots of all these things and like where this all came from and what these people were experiencing thank you man it's fucking awesome it's been very humbling to go through this what's cool it's got to be great for you because there was a lot of uncertainty of you going down this path yeah man i quit my job there was no plan B well yeah sometimes that's what you have to do right it worked out yeah spectacularly i felt like i was losing my soul at some point i was always uh i mean i love being a lawyer i went to law school for a reason but uh this this is the stuff that always kept me up at night you know like this was just a fun passion project on nights and weekends and then it became a book yeah and a thing but like that wasn't that wasn't the the purpose I was and and to this day like I'm I still want to know that's why I said like I'm not satisfied like I want to know the actual answers of course to this stuff yeah oh we all do well I'm very hopeful in that there is like real research being done and a real attempt to test all of these other vessels and I think that would be wildly ambitious and really fantastic to see it all come, like to find out what the results are.

[2835] Maybe it's nothing.

[2836] Maybe it's like a rare and there's very few of these things contain drugs.

[2837] Maybe they halt you, which is crazy.

[2838] That would be the craziest.

[2839] There's drugs everywhere.

[2840] Yeah.

[2841] I think that's probably the case.

[2842] You know, we were very fortunate.

[2843] Went to Chechnica once and I had this really good guide.

[2844] It was a really interesting guy who was a local professor in Mexico and he would give guy of the Mayan temples and one of the things that he openly talked about was the psychedelic consumption that there was some area of one of these temples where they would take this thing that had very LSD -like properties to it they didn't totally understand it when I went to chichinica we're talking about like 2003 or something like that it was quite a while ago and you know to have this guy explain that to me it was really interesting So I think it existed in so many, I think wherever they could find it, they took it.

[2845] There was another, I hate to keep bouncing off all these headlines, but there was another headline from Peru around psychedelic lace beer, which you can see it in CNN, also in that geo, I think.

[2846] If you look up psychedelic beer, Peru, it'll probably come up.

[2847] And this is recent as well.

[2848] And this is also recent, just in the past, in the past couple of years.

[2849] Wow.

[2850] Like you would never, I mean, when I was, I was researching from 2007, this book, which came out in 2020.

[2851] Never did I come across a headline psychedelic -laced beer.

[2852] If I had it, this would have been very irrelevant.

[2853] Ancient Peruvians partied hard, spiked their beer with hallucinogens to win friends.

[2854] How do you know why they did it?

[2855] To win friends.

[2856] That was a leap.

[2857] I don't think you needed that part.

[2858] You know?

[2859] Lacing the beer served at their feast with hallucinogens may have helped age in Peruvian people known as the Wari.

[2860] Is that correct?

[2861] Wari, yeah.

[2862] Wari forge political alliances and expand their empire, according to a new paper published in the journal Antiquity.

[2863] Recent excavations at a remote Wari outpost called, how do you say that?

[2864] Kilkampa.

[2865] Kilka pampa.

[2866] Kilka pampa?

[2867] Kilka pampa.

[2868] Kulka pampa.

[2869] Unearth seeds from the Vilka tree.

[2870] Vilka.

[2871] Yep.

[2872] Vilca.

[2873] That can be used to produce a potent hallucinogenic drug.

[2874] The authors think that the Wari held one big final blowout before the site was abandoned.

[2875] Hmm.

[2876] So the Vilka is anadenantra, anadana, either colubrina or peregrina, and that's been here a while.

[2877] There's evidence of the use of that going back thousands of years.

[2878] Just after Christopher Columbus actually came to the Caribbean, one of his associates writes about, it's called Yopo, Yopo or Kohoba, that was in use around, what is today, like the DR and that part of the Caribbean.

[2879] So it's been around a very long time.

[2880] As soon as the colonists arrived to this part of the world, they found drugs.

[2881] Wow.

[2882] Yeah.

[2883] Kohoba, Yopo.

[2884] Last but not least, before we get out of here.

[2885] Yeah.

[2886] One of the things I found out about you when we're on a little trip together is that you're interested in UFOs.

[2887] There's a giant UFO behind you.

[2888] Yeah.

[2889] Well, anybody that's really fascinated with it, I have to bring it up.

[2890] What's your take on all this UAP disclosure stuff?

[2891] and all these reports and these fighter pilots that are seeing these things that defy our understanding of propulsion systems that are currently available.

[2892] What is your thoughts on these things?

[2893] There's probably something to it.

[2894] I don't know what it is.

[2895] I don't think anybody knows what it is, but I don't think you can contradict the pilots at this point.

[2896] A friend of mine, Leslie Kane, has written a book about this, which is sort of a gold standard in the field.

[2897] so UFOs and I don't think we can really ignore it we were able to ignore it for many decades until relatively recently and now you see congressional investigations and you see different witnesses coming forward so I think it's a gigantic mystery that kind of like these ancient mysteries that fascinate me can't really go ignored much longer I'm not entirely sure what's being witnessed are like extraterrestrial craft like like physical things being pouted by like flesh and blood beings from you know vast stretches of the cosmos I think I've said this before on the record I think there's something like far far stranger about it I don't know I don't know what it is but when I read like Jacques valet for example I love the hypothesis that these things you know fit better into mythology and folklore than they do into science and engineering journals because there have been sightings for as long as we've been around and not just about things in the sky but things that interact with us and so Passport to Magonia is a really cool book that talks about the interaction of what these could be today and what they looked like in the past and I just think it's a huge mystery.

[2898] It's a huge mystery.

[2899] That's really all you really can say, right?

[2900] It's all anybody.

[2901] can really say.

[2902] Except maybe some people that work for one of the Defense Department contractors that actually has a UFO store in the basement somewhere.

[2903] It's not a mystery.

[2904] Yeah, to them, to them it's not a mystery.

[2905] But they're keeping their mouth shut, unfortunately.

[2906] Yeah.

[2907] Now you say NASA's taking an interest, and I think that the conversations in Washington are really wild, yeah, about the new interest in this stuff.

[2908] But I don't know.

[2909] something in me tell just something in me is not drawn to the engineering um side of the conversation uh i'm drawn like with the ancient misters i'm drawn to folklore and mythology uh and i think that you know to understand the the root of that phenomenon will tell us a lot about ourselves actually which is why we talked about homo naidi you know this this ancient hominin that i think that discovery tells us more about what it means to be human you You know, if it's not our brain size, or we talked a lot about creativity, you know, like, I think questions about the deep past force us to ask questions about who we are today.

[2910] And I think this phenomenon, whatever it is, is the same.

[2911] Like, whether or not we're alone in the cosmos, that's one question.

[2912] But, like, the relationship between these sightings and our psyches and consciousness, I think, is a far more profound question.

[2913] And, again, some of the questions that the early researchers like J. L. and Hineck were asking, about this phenomenon.

[2914] He says something that like when the long -awaited solution to the UFO problem comes, I think it will prove to be not just the next small step in the march of science, but in a mighty and unexpected quantum leap.

[2915] That to understand this issue is to understand something very profound.

[2916] Let's end with that.

[2917] That's perfect.

[2918] Brian, you're the man. I appreciate you very much.

[2919] It was really cool hanging out with you in Greece, and it's always great to have you on here.

[2920] And your book is now available on paperback.

[2921] I'm assuming they made a lot of copies this time.

[2922] We will find out.

[2923] We will find out.

[2924] Okay.

[2925] Thank you very much.

[2926] Thanks, man. Bye, everybody.