338 - We Saw What You Did

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hardstark.

[3] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[4] I'm Millie de Cherko.

[5] And I'm Daniel Henderson.

[6] And this is I saw what you did.

[7] Yay.

[8] You can tell.

[9] We rehearsed that for three weeks before we have given it in front of everyone.

[10] Straight.

[11] Five, six, seven, eight.

[12] And that's the episode, folks.

[13] Millie and Danielle, welcome.

[14] Thank you so much for letting us be on your podcast, I guess, is really what this is.

[15] about?

[16] Thank you for letting us pretend your podcast is our podcast so we can take it easy this episode.

[17] Oh my goodness.

[18] So happy to do so and vice versa.

[19] I love these crossover episodes myself.

[20] I'm a fan.

[21] I'm not just a client.

[22] I'm also a member.

[23] Millie, you're in Atlanta.

[24] How's the humidity out there?

[25] It's dreadful.

[26] Oh, God.

[27] It is.

[28] I can't even imagine.

[29] Terrible.

[30] But you went to Barbell Club today.

[31] What?

[32] I did.

[33] Oh, yeah.

[34] I started weightlifting.

[35] I don't know if I told you guys this, but Daniel and I came up with this, like, challenge on one of our episodes that we were both going to start deadlifting.

[36] Wow.

[37] Yeah, yeah.

[38] That's been kind of what we've been working on this year, but then the problem is that it's like 900 degrees outside.

[39] So, and in gyms, you know, there's no AC in gyms, pretty much, at least in barbell gyms.

[40] And so I was like, really having a hard time today.

[41] So, yeah, needless to say, it's hot here.

[42] Yeah.

[43] Wait, now, Millie, you're technically in your hometown, right?

[44] Do your parents still live in Atlanta?

[45] No, they moved about 20 years ago, so...

[46] But I left late in my life.

[47] So I had already, like, gone through, like, my 20s and a lot of my 30s before I actually left.

[48] So, you know, it was that kind of thing where I was like, well, I guess I'm just sitting here.

[49] Then I didn't leave.

[50] And then I was like, but wait a minute.

[51] There's always time.

[52] And then I left.

[53] And then, you know, I was in L .A. for about five years.

[54] But, and then I'm back.

[55] So, yeah, it's weird.

[56] But it's not, like, weird in the way that it is for Danielle because Atlanta is a big city.

[57] Right.

[58] To be quite honest with you, Atlanta is basically L .A. except people drink more here, I guess.

[59] I don't know.

[60] But, like, L .A. in the South.

[61] It is a kind of cool city.

[62] It's very cool.

[63] There's a lot of, like, production and L .A. stuff happening here now.

[64] So, yeah.

[65] Feels like I haven't left a lot of times.

[66] But you came back different.

[67] You're like an adult now in like a bigger way.

[68] You know, like you've got your own stuff popping off.

[69] Yeah, chops.

[70] You came back with chop chops.

[71] Yeah, chips.

[72] Yeah.

[73] No, it was, you know, like, I don't know.

[74] I loved L .A. I loved living there.

[75] But, you know, if you think about house prices and that kind of stuff, you know, post -COVID sort of like life stuff, I was like, hmm.

[76] Maybe I should go back to the South where things are relatively cheaper and sort of more attainable.

[77] Yeah, that's what every other person that lives in L .A. is trying to do.

[78] It's really hard to argue living in L .A. when it's like median home price is $3 million for like a three -bedroom two bath.

[79] It's crazy.

[80] And people are showing up with cash and be like, I'll buy that house right now.

[81] And you're like, wait, what?

[82] I don't even get a chance?

[83] No, no one gets a chance here.

[84] Aw.

[85] Well, come and hang out with us.

[86] Millie knows the guy who owns a chicken.

[87] We got lightning bogs.

[88] Come see a lightning bug.

[89] Come on.

[90] It's going to be great.

[91] And movies.

[92] All we do is watch movies and hang out.

[93] Hell yeah.

[94] What a joy to spend the day preparing for our episode by watching a movie.

[95] Truly, my dream country.

[96] Have you guys seen this movie before?

[97] No. Even better.

[98] Yeah, I'd never seen this.

[99] I made my husband watch it with me. He had never seen it before.

[100] And now you're getting divorced.

[101] He's like, what is this shit?

[102] There really is nothing better, though, than I was, as the movie was starting, I was just making a list and it was like, Brooklyn, 1972, yes, true story, yes, Sydney Lumet, yes, like every single thing that started rolling out.

[103] And then truly and honestly, one of my favorite things about old movies like this is back then, that's when they used to use, the crowd scenes on New York streets were the real crowds on New York streets that were just getting filmed without their permission.

[104] Absolutely.

[105] And you can fucking tell.

[106] The difference of like, you see people kind of looking around to do what they want and then they, for one second, look into the camera, you're like, this is a real crowd.

[107] Yeah.

[108] So satisfying.

[109] And in this movie, I'll talk a little bit about like the history of it, but I think in this film, they had hired, I don't know, maybe like a couple hundred actual extras.

[110] But then like five times the amount of people showed up and the extras were like, well, I guess we'll tell these random strangers what to do on this movie say because they're just here.

[111] Right.

[112] Yes.

[113] Yeah.

[114] And they look better than any hired.

[115] I mean, there were some featured extras that had to be actors.

[116] Yeah.

[117] But then, for the most part, the people standing up against those police barricades and stuff, they're just kind of leaning around and looking around.

[118] I was just like, this is the greatest kind of that guerrilla feel that was so 70s, right?

[119] New York City, 70s vibe.

[120] Yeah.

[121] Okay.

[122] Well, I'll just do that little introduction thing that we do, just to announce the film or whatever?

[123] Totally.

[124] Bring your show to our show.

[125] Oh, cool.

[126] In true crossover style.

[127] Okay, cool.

[128] Well, this is interesting because we usually do double features and we're only doing one film, which we've never done before, but it's exciting because I think we've all seen it, and we all have things to say about it, but I guess the theme would be true crime.

[129] We're doing a true crime film because we're on my favorite murder.

[130] So our movie for the theme of true crime is a movie from 1975, It was written by Frank Pearson, based on a magazine article by P .F. Kluge and Thomas Moore.

[131] It was directed by Sidney Lumet, and it's called Dog Day Afternoon.

[132] So it's pronounced Lumet.

[133] I didn't know that.

[134] I think so.

[135] Anytime we've said it on TCM, I feel like we've said Sydney Lumet.

[136] I trust the source for sure.

[137] I don't know entirely, but I should have probably Googled that or something.

[138] I think you know what?

[139] I think either's fine.

[140] because Lume is just like the French version.

[141] It's fun.

[142] It's just the French version.

[143] You don't know, if you've heard people on TCM pronounce it that way, that's the correct way.

[144] I trust that entirely.

[145] The gold standard.

[146] Well, you know, Dog Day Afternoon, I think, is considered one of the best films of the 70s.

[147] It was nominated for six Academy Awards, and it actually won for Best Original Screenplay.

[148] And the director of this film is...

[149] Sidney Lumet slash Sidney Lumet.

[150] And, you know, he is very famous.

[151] He's done many incredible movies.

[152] I mean, he did the original 12 Angry Men with Henry Fonda.

[153] He did the pawnbroker, Serpico Network.

[154] So I would say he knows a little something about creating tense dramas, right?

[155] He directed my friend's bat mitzvah video.

[156] Tense.

[157] Tense.

[158] Pretty realistic Bob Mitzvah.

[159] He's like, why don't you get back up there with those scrolls?

[160] Let's see this again.

[161] They're heavier.

[162] Pretend they're heavier.

[163] Somebody is just like an older man is just sweating.

[164] Yeah, right.

[165] There was so much realistic sweat in this movie where I was like, this isn't just somebody from the makeup department coming through and spritzing people.

[166] It felt like they made them for real sweat.

[167] Oh, yeah.

[168] That was like method acting.

[169] Method sweating.

[170] Well, and like, here's the thing about dog.

[171] Day Afternoon, too, I don't know if I would say this is entirely common within the scope of like true crime films, but Dog to Afternoon was made like only a couple years after the actual crime, right?

[172] So most everybody was still alive.

[173] And a lot of people were in jail, obviously.

[174] Yeah, so the screenwriter, Frank Pearson, who was kind of famous at his own right.

[175] I mean, he wrote Cool Hand Luke and he wrote and directed the Barbara Streisand, version of a star is born?

[176] Oh, wow.

[177] Which I saw in the background in one of the scenes is on the marquee of the theater.

[178] Okay, that makes sense.

[179] That's so weird.

[180] Oh, self -reference.

[181] Yeah, I guess so.

[182] Nice.

[183] Yeah.

[184] But his screenplay was based on this article that was written by, you know, these two Life magazine writers.

[185] And it was called The Boys in the Bank, which I feel is probably maybe a play on the boys in the band.

[186] I'm not entirely sure.

[187] But that was supposed to be the original name of the film before they switched it to dog day afternoon.

[188] Much better choice.

[189] Much better choice.

[190] I'll do a one -sentence synopsis of this film, because that's something we'd like to do on our podcast.

[191] We'd like to orient people on what the movies amount.

[192] On a sweltering afternoon in Brooklyn in the 1970s, two men haplessly attempt to rob a bank and then end up in a very tense hostage situation with the New York City Police and the FBI.

[193] Beautiful.

[194] Beautiful.

[195] Yes.

[196] And dead on.

[197] So I don't know about you guys.

[198] I don't know if you guys read about the film or sort of like the history behind it, but one of the most interesting things that I think I read about this movie was that in the Life magazine article, the writers described the real robber and the, you know, the kind of mastermind behind the whole thing, John Wadowitz, they described him as a guy who sort of looked like a Dustin Hoffman or an Al Pacino type.

[199] Right.

[200] So isn't it weird that Al Pacino eventually just got cast in the film?

[201] He's just like, you look like this guy, so it's kind of perfect.

[202] His name is Sonny Wirtzik in the film, so his name has been fictionalized.

[203] And I don't know, are you guys fans of Al Pacino?

[204] Devoted.

[205] It's hard to deny a young Al Pacino, the early 70s New York energy, where you're like, did you just come from a class downtown or you're off.

[206] Broadway show and then you came to shoot here like he's a gorgeous man he plays that part in my opinion so well and so endearingly and so believably and the beginning was stressing me out so bad that I was like can I watch a two -hour movie that's this stressful but because I immediately loved him and his character then I was in yeah I know he has those big beautiful eyes and he just looks so boyish and puppyish and then he kind of, I think what really drew me in in a way that I'm not usually drawn in instantly to most films is that the look on his face and his general Pacino -ness coupled with what he's about to do just made me instantly feel bad for him that he was put in that situation or that he put himself in that situation.

[207] Even though throughout the whole film, he comes in with the countenance of a chihuahua on cocaine and it just goes up from there.

[208] When he finally pulls that gun out of the gift box, And the way he does it is like, that's how I would have done it.

[209] Like, this is a disaster from the get -go, it feels like.

[210] It's a mess.

[211] It's a mess.

[212] When I saw him sitting in the car right before they went into draw the bank, I thought he looked professional.

[213] I didn't know what was going on.

[214] I thought he was like a professional bank robber.

[215] He had this down.

[216] And then the minute you hear him speaking and that he is this like neighborhood boyish, you know, the moving right along line that he keeps saying, moving right along.

[217] It was so, it's so, it's like a Wes Anderson thing to me that he has, obviously way pre -West Anderson, that is so charming, even though he is a, yeah, completely lighting things on fire and just completely messing it up right from the get -go.

[218] Just a mess.

[219] And it gave me such nostalgia to, like, did you ever have like your mom dragged you into the bank and like, stand here?

[220] And like, she was doing her stuff.

[221] And then you got to play with all the pens and the paper and everything.

[222] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[223] I remember how it smells.

[224] and how it feels and like, oh, just banks, guys, just old banks.

[225] Seventies banks.

[226] And also because back then, and I always say this, but back in the 70s, nothing was branded.

[227] So there's those signs behind them the whole time where it's like, open a checking account and it's just like a finger turning into a pencil or something where it's just like nothing is, everything back then was not thought through as to how can we catch the eye.

[228] It was just like plain everywhere.

[229] It didn't even look like a bank When it very first opened, it's just like, oh, that's the local branch.

[230] Like, it looked like an old shoe store they were going into.

[231] Whereas now it's like LeBron James is trying to get you to open a credit card.

[232] I love that.

[233] You're right.

[234] Like, the whole setup of this film was so sweaty New York 70s.

[235] There's a scene in the beginning where there's an off -leash Doberman just kind of roaming on the street.

[236] And I'm like, this is the most 70s thing I've ever seen.

[237] Like, what happened to Dobermans, one.

[238] And two.

[239] Where they go is the dog of choice And just roaming around unleashed Like I love that shit Yeah It's such a perfect example of like Hey guys yeah The New York used to have stray dogs It's like This is what New York I could have just watched footage Of New York from back then That beginning credits the whole time Here's New York It had stray dogs That had clearly Just given birth to puppies somewhere And then also like Dudes who had been day drinking all day And like But they had ties on And suits and ties on because that's how you did it in the 70s.

[240] But they just were taking a little quick nap on the sidewalk.

[241] Yeah, welcome to Manhattan.

[242] Just to nap it off.

[243] Also, piles of garbage, because there was probably some garbage strike at some point.

[244] So there was like an unnerving amount of sidewalk garbage.

[245] Absolutely.

[246] Like crazy.

[247] And then they would show that, like, the sanitation truck would drive by.

[248] And you're like, is this a Richard scary sanitation truck?

[249] Like, is this actually going to pick up garbage?

[250] Because it just looks so fake.

[251] It's just like a white truck that's a sanitation truck.

[252] in black letters.

[253] We promise we're getting the garbage.

[254] We'll get it later.

[255] New York sanitation.

[256] Yeah, I think that's why people are really drawn to 70s movies in general.

[257] I mean, if you think about it like sort of in the history of film, it comes off of this very glitzy classic Hollywood era and, you know, the era of the code, the production code.

[258] And so 70s movies are by and large just a lot grittier and more realistic.

[259] And there is like actual trash in these films.

[260] and people sweating.

[261] And, like, the colored palettes are all, like, really depressing.

[262] It's a lot of, lot of tans and browns and rust -colored clothing.

[263] And, like, you know, and there's something about that, like, whole era of filmmaking where it was just sort of, like, these kind of, like, young, mavericky filmmakers that were just kind of, like, doing their own thing.

[264] So, I mean, to me, it's just part of why I like this movie so much.

[265] The funny thing about this movie, really, is that if you think about, say, watching any bank robbery movie now, or, like, a heist movie, it's always like now a very, like, slick affair.

[266] You know, it's like you're watching Clive Owen and Inside Man being all cool and having a big plan and all these fucking people showing up, and then, you know, there's like Catherine Zeta Jones or something, like moving through lasers and shit.

[267] I mean, it's like, now the bank robbery movies are very like high tech and slick.

[268] Whereas, like, then you watch something like this and you're like, oh, the first 10 minutes of the movie, you're like, oh, these fucking guys have no idea what they're doing.

[269] Like, they're just, like, showing up to a bank, and they have no plan, and they don't know what the fuck is going on.

[270] They don't even have fake names for each other, like code names.

[271] Presumably, they're from the neighborhood.

[272] Like, someone could be, like, Sunny, is that you?

[273] There's no way to, like, make themselves look, like, not themselves.

[274] And also, the youngest, like, weakest guy quits immediately.

[275] Like, the second that happened, I was just like, this is every plan I've ever tried to pull off.

[276] Just someone just like, I can't do it.

[277] I got to go where you're like, he goes, he literally said, the gun's already out.

[278] I try and get him not to quit.

[279] It was just like, oh, shit.

[280] We've committed.

[281] That dude is me where I'm like, ooh, I didn't know it was going to be like this.

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[283] Absolutely.

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[301] Goodbye.

[302] To the gritty point, there's no sound.

[303] So in every bank ice movie, you see there's the bongoes going and you're supposed to get stressed when the bongos start going.

[304] And like, there is not a ounce of music, I think, in this entire movie.

[305] That's so funny.

[306] Like that didn't not even cross my mind until you just said that.

[307] No soundtrack.

[308] I think there's the opening song, the old John song.

[309] But beyond that, beyond that, nothing.

[310] Right.

[311] Yeah.

[312] Even in the bank, you'd think that they would have some kind of elevator music, some K -Tel thing.

[313] But no, it felt like silence, which is also, it's like part of that.

[314] whole like wow this is like some really realistic type of shit yeah you know part of what i love though about the movie and why i think it continues to sort of be celebrated is that you are effectively watching characters who are already flawed right they're just like not good at robbing banks you know and you're kind of like well this is maybe what i would do if i robbed a bank i don't know Like, do I know when money drops?

[315] Like, how am I supposed to know that?

[316] I mean, they admit at the very beginning of the film where they were like, oh, we thought there was going to be all this cash in here, give me all the money.

[317] And they were like, what are you talking about?

[318] The armored car just showed up and picked up everything.

[319] So you guys are shit out of luck.

[320] And they're like, oh.

[321] Big mistake.

[322] To me, it's kind of like a real, like, local dumbass Rob's Bank scenario, which I don't know.

[323] I appreciate that.

[324] And also because it escalates to something that's so beyond the scope of what they were originally doing.

[325] Right.

[326] Like it escalates to a place where, like you said, they start out by robbing this bank, but then they move into more of like this social commentary and this kind of cultural commentary, but what's happening at that time.

[327] But it also goes in a, it's not like dark and then getting darker.

[328] It fucks up immediately and then gets so real and then is funny.

[329] Like at certain points, I had to keep telling myself, this is a true story.

[330] Because it just seemed like they were improvising, what would you do next?

[331] There are many moments of the film that are actually improvised, like acting.

[332] And that was not a Sydney Lumet thing.

[333] Like, he was not about that improv.

[334] But I think he was like, you know, I trust these actors because they're obviously, like, very talented.

[335] Because not just Pacino, but John Kazale, who plays Sal, his partner, the one that doesn't run away.

[336] I mean, John Casale is a legend in his own rate.

[337] He worked with Pacino in New York in the theater, but he was also in the Godfather films, which, you know, those came before this film, obviously.

[338] I mean, he was only in five films in his entire career because he died really young.

[339] He died at the age of 42.

[340] And all of the films that he appeared in were nominated for Best Picture at the Oscars.

[341] It's wild.

[342] So wild.

[343] The funny thing really is that the actual Sal, the real -life person that robbed the bank, with John Waterwitz.

[344] He was really young.

[345] I think he was only 18 or something.

[346] And John Kazali was definitely in his 30s when he was in this movie.

[347] And, you know, they were like, but he's so good.

[348] Let's just make him sell.

[349] It doesn't matter if he's 20 years older than the guy or whatever.

[350] He's like the kind of person that I think people now would refer to as like an actor's actor.

[351] Like he definitely inspired a ton of people in his own age group in his own acting group.

[352] But he continues to inspire people.

[353] Like Buscami talks about him all the time and Philip Seamer Hoffman and just like he just really was a very shy and cool and interesting person who used that in his acting and it was just he seemed to be very revered and loved and he was dating Meryl Streep at the time that he died like they met when they were doing Shakespeare in the park in New York and started dating and they were planning to get married and when he was diagnosed with cancer and she stayed with him through his illness and death He filmed the deer hunter, his scenes in the deer hunter.

[354] They rearranged the schedule so that he could film his scenes first.

[355] Wow.

[356] And she took her role in that film to be close to him.

[357] Oh, my God.

[358] It's really sweet.

[359] He's a really interesting.

[360] And his films are all knockout, like knockout performances, knockout films.

[361] Well, how interesting is it that he died from cancer?

[362] And it's not foreshadowing when he talks about cigarettes in the movie causing cancer because he didn't have it yet, right?

[363] That we know of, right?

[364] Exactly.

[365] that we know of yeah but there was his character was so cool because i was always like i could never get a beat on this guy is he about to go completely just completely lose it and start killing everyone or is he the like really stressed out one who needs to be calmed down because he has because he's never flown on a plane before or is he like the nice one who's making everything okay it was really hard to get a beat on him which i like kind of made me pay more attention to him throughout the movie than i think of any other actor had played him i agree because he wasn't playing the type yeah I feel like that moment, though, when Al Pacino's character said, what country do you want to go to?

[366] And he said, Wyoming.

[367] I was just like, oh, get these guys out of here.

[368] Like, they're so in over their head.

[369] It's so sad.

[370] Completely.

[371] And that's kind of like how the movie progresses.

[372] So they're in the bank.

[373] They realize that they don't know what the fuck they're doing.

[374] And then they're like, oh, but the police have just been called, which likely stems from the fact that they let that bank led you're on fire, put in the garbage can.

[375] and then it signaled something.

[376] So the police are called.

[377] And now Sonny and Sal are like, well, we have to take these people hostages.

[378] And there's like, you know, a half dozen people in the bank.

[379] They're like tellers, the manager.

[380] There's a security guard and everything.

[381] One of the women who works in the bank is Carol Kane.

[382] Did you guys see that?

[383] Immediately.

[384] I got so, anytime I see Carol Kane anywhere, I'm excited.

[385] She's so cute.

[386] So cute.

[387] And the reunion with Charles Durning, the one stranger calls reunion, Charles Derning, who, by the way, I have always loved.

[388] He plays the hostage negotiator, yeah.

[389] Yes.

[390] But he's one of those actors who he was born like a 45 -year -old vice cop with an ulcer.

[391] Yes.

[392] Like he never had a childhood.

[393] He only had ulcers.

[394] There was one point where he told Al Pacino, you look kind of squeezed out.

[395] And I was like, that's tough to hear from a young Charles Durning.

[396] If Charles Derning is criticizing your appearance, you need to really think about stuff.

[397] Yeah.

[398] No, their dance, like him and Pacino, their dance is so fun to watch.

[399] Because the thing about the Charles Writing character to me that is, I don't know, that makes this movie, I think, better, is that he's not this, like, asshole guy that's, like, being very...

[400] He's not the James Broderick character, right?

[401] He's not this, like, you know, stern police guy.

[402] He's working with him.

[403] You know, I mean, because that's, I think, another big part of this film, too, is that Sunny comes out of the bank at certain points during this standoff, like, fully out of the bank.

[404] Like, he walks out of the bank, and he's walking around the block, and there's fucking police everywhere and sharpshooters and the press, and then there's all those neighborhood people that just showed up, right?

[405] The true neighbors.

[406] At one point, sorry, but at one point, there was families looking out their apartment window that, like, the second floor apartment.

[407] and there was a baby that had her own whole window to us.

[408] She was just like literally like a three year old in the window looking down at the police action I was just like wow hey Brooklyn what's up Abigail go to your police watching window that baby is probably our age or something and she's like I was the baby in the window of dog day afternoon I got my own view yes it's been that's gonna be my new claim to fame whenever I go to a bar in New York I was the baby in the window of dog day afternoon But, yeah, no, so Sadi's out on the sidewalk And he's trying to communicate all these demands But it's also like he's in a weird way Like on a stage almost He's like the center of attention, right?

[409] And there's something that happens to where I feel like one of the most well -known scenes in this movie is when he is stalking around outside the bank And he's already mentioned it But outside of the bank is when he starts screaming Attica And, you know, Georgia and Karen You did a whole episode or, you know, an episode that featured that whole story and it was so much more intricate and detailed than I even knew it was.

[410] He's definitely drawing attention to his own plight with the cops, like this push and pull that he's in with everyone except for Charles Durning.

[411] But he also inadvertently gets the whole crowd on his side just by chanting Attica.

[412] That whole event had just happened.

[413] And so he's using it to get people on his side and the whole crowd becomes so enamored of him that he starts hamming it up.

[414] And you're like, We're still in a robbery, dude.

[415] I mean, we were a little taken aback by how he's out there unarmed.

[416] No one's trying to take him down because they know that there's another armed person.

[417] And we don't know if he's, if Sonny is the brains of the operation and the calm one who can negotiate, then what have we got inside?

[418] Like, we can't take Sunny out of there.

[419] I mean, that's just wild.

[420] And there's even a part where Sylvia, one of the bank tellers, comes out.

[421] Oh, yeah.

[422] And they're like, they try to grab her arm.

[423] And she's like, let go on me. Like, she gets so upset that they're trying to take her out of this situation.

[424] She was the hero to me on the whole thing.

[425] Completely.

[426] I adore her.

[427] She said, I got my girls inside.

[428] I got to take care of my girls.

[429] Like, what that?

[430] Yes.

[431] She also had every hostage, like, running that robbery.

[432] They're like, we have to go into the bathroom.

[433] We're tired.

[434] We were hungry.

[435] Like, they were running the show.

[436] because Sylvia was not having it.

[437] Yeah.

[438] I love it.

[439] So the other big event that happens in the film is that Sonny, as part of his demands, he wants the place to bring him his wife, right?

[440] And the wife is eventually revealed to be a trans woman who is played by Chris Sarandon, the actor Chris Aranin.

[441] Oh, why did he not win Best Supporting Actor Oscar?

[442] That, the two scenes he was in, you were just like, holy shit.

[443] This is...

[444] Rivided.

[445] Amazing.

[446] Perfection.

[447] The clutching of the robe itself.

[448] Like, his hand should have won.

[449] Well, he had a gorgeous manicure.

[450] He had really nice nails.

[451] And I kept waiting for the moment where it was going to be like, ugh, mishandled.

[452] Ooh, problematic.

[453] And it was as if that movie was made with these people getting their story told in mind, which just didn't happen back then.

[454] It's handled probably a lot better than.

[455] you would expect for 1975.

[456] I mean, there's a couple of, you know, moments of, you know, homophobia and transphobia coming from the cops and, you know, some of the people in the crowd.

[457] But for the most part, the Chris Saranid character is not played for laughs at all, I thought.

[458] No. Right.

[459] And it's interesting, too, that Leon as a character is, it becomes kind of a divisive issue once Leon is on the scene because of the homophobia.

[460] So it's almost like bank robbing is cool, but ooh, kissing a boy.

[461] And so, I don't know, they just, it kind of splits the community.

[462] And then, you know, there's lots of gay rights.

[463] people chanting and kind of coming down to support Sunny.

[464] And then there are also people calling the cops and calling news shows and saying, like, this is horrible, this is not what we're about.

[465] So it became like a very divisive, surprisingly divisive issue because you kind of think of Stonewall and, you know, the gay rights movement in the 60s and 70s is something that was more unified.

[466] But it's always had these little sparks and little jolts that didn't fit in.

[467] Well, especially if you bring it to the sidewalk in Brooklyn in the afternoon and you're just kind of like, who's with me, Attica?

[468] And everyone's like, fuck, yeah.

[469] And then it's like, wait, sorry, my wife is coming down here, also a man. And it's like, no, no, no. Like, it's almost like the sidewalk and the street scene is like modern day social media.

[470] And Sonny is just dipping in and out of his event being like, what do you think of me now?

[471] How about now?

[472] How about now?

[473] And just like, yeah, they're a crowd.

[474] Like, then they started making that sound every time he would frisk someone that was coming in, where it was just like, ah, look how they turn.

[475] Look how they turn on you.

[476] Like, Sunny also doesn't play it for laughs.

[477] Like, Pacino doesn't play it for laughs.

[478] So when, even within the bank, when the context of talking about Leon, he doesn't explain himself.

[479] Oh, yeah.

[480] At all.

[481] He's just like, yep, that's my wife and this is who I am.

[482] Like, it leaps and bounds ahead of its time.

[483] Yeah, there's a phone call that happens between the two of them where the Chris Randon character is next door at the barbershop.

[484] I guess that's where the police kind of set up their, like, surveillance.

[485] for the bank.

[486] And they get on the phone with each other.

[487] And that conversation is wonderful.

[488] It's just listening to a couple talk on the phone and how they have, they've got drama, obviously.

[489] But in that moment where he, you know, Sonny is essentially being like, I'm doing this for you.

[490] You know, you find out that's his primary motivation for the robbery, is that he is trying to pay for sexual reassignment surgery for the Chris Ranin character.

[491] And it goes back to what we were just saying.

[492] I feel like that whole setup could have been real played for laughs, real joky, but it wasn't, which is kind of fresh, I think, for that time.

[493] And also a surprise.

[494] Like, you're robbing a bank for me, for what, huh?

[495] I didn't ask for that shit.

[496] When he sees him originally, was he all, like, was it a happy birthday or I'm doing this for you?

[497] And then he just straight out faints.

[498] Yeah.

[499] I mean, it did seem, though, that there was this kind of abusive relationship going on, at least on the part of Sunny towards Saul.

[500] And so to make him call his abuser the reason he is locked up at the moment in a mental health facility to talk him out of this crime he's committing, that part's a little fraught to me. Oh, completely.

[501] I saw the documentary, The Dog.

[502] Did you guys see that?

[503] It was about John Waterwitz, basically, the sunny character, the real -life guy.

[504] And it's wild.

[505] He's wild.

[506] He's a wild character.

[507] But it kind of gives you a glimpse into, like, who he really was.

[508] And it's interesting because he was married to a woman and had children at one point, like years before the actual robbery.

[509] But he was very much involved in, like, gay liberation movements in New York.

[510] He was kind of a polarizing figure, though, because he was kind of just like, I don't know, like real offbeat, I guess is the best way to put it.

[511] You really get the sense, like they interview Elizabeth Eden, who is the woman that he was married to, and she kind of gives her account of just him, like his whole, like their courtship, everything, the motivation behind the robbery and everything like that.

[512] It's just really interesting.

[513] Just if, you know, you're out wanting to watch a documentary about this film or the history, of this film.

[514] I would love to watch that.

[515] It's just such an incredible story.

[516] The entire time I was like, this seems like amazing screenwriting.

[517] And then it's like, no, it's, this is what happened.

[518] Like, this is how they actually did this, which is, it is incredible.

[519] It also makes you wonder, like, you know, the whole time thinking of, like, what if I were robbing a bank and got caught?

[520] And, like, who thinks they're going to get away at that point in a jet with a limo to the jet?

[521] And then they're going to go to Algeria?

[522] Listen, I think they said Algeria at one point.

[523] Right.

[524] And my PD shows up and they're like, here you go.

[525] Here's your circus carousel.

[526] And they're like, what?

[527] Did I ask for that?

[528] Yeah.

[529] Yeah, I remember thinking too, you know, because I see this movie several times, but I remember like the first time I watched it, it's just very, you're on the edge of your seat a lot of times, like during some of this film.

[530] And one of the biggest ones for me was when they were leaving the bank to get into that limo.

[531] Because I was thinking, well, of course they can't just walk out one by one because there's sharpshooters everywhere.

[532] So, you know, they're like, well, everybody has to like stay together and they're walking as this kind of like glob of people.

[533] And then they all like, one, two, three, jump into the car together.

[534] And so it's that kind of thinking of like, oh, well, yeah, these people are committing a crime.

[535] They're thinking about it.

[536] They're thinking about how to not get killed.

[537] Yeah, they're using the hostages as body arms.

[538] essentially.

[539] It was kind of magical, though, how they ended up getting in.

[540] I was just like, God, that was a good idea where it's like if Sal and Sonny are in the middle, then they can't take clean shots and they won't take any shots.

[541] It just kept seeming like, oh, this is impossible.

[542] They can't get past this point.

[543] And then they would.

[544] When they were doing the Human Shield thing, every single hostage could have scattered.

[545] Like, they could have just run away.

[546] And it would have been over.

[547] And they didn't.

[548] Like, they had this kind of affinity to these two guys that they'd spent this day with and wanting to protect them.

[549] And then when they were in the car, it was a different story.

[550] It was kind of became a little bit more heightened once they realized we're actually getting on a plane going to Algeria.

[551] That switched there because there was an affinity between the hostages, which were mostly female.

[552] They all did have this camaraderie, especially with Sunny, who was, you know, this sweet young kid seemingly and charismatic.

[553] No one really wanted him to get shot.

[554] by a sniper.

[555] And so they were there to protect him a little bit.

[556] And that change once they got on the bus.

[557] If they take a shot at the captors right now, our heads are right next to theirs.

[558] And if they miss, we're screwed.

[559] That was a very scary moment.

[560] I think tension.

[561] There was so much tension in the moment.

[562] When I first watched the movie, I'm like, well, what if they do just kill everyone just to get out of it?

[563] Like, that's not unheard of.

[564] Like, they could just take some casualties here.

[565] And the tense moments of the movie are alleviated by so much humor like the tellers are dancing in the bank and they're trying to do like drum corps moves with the guns but then they instantly bring it back to the most stressful place possible and that to me is a real testament to Sidney Lumet's like the scope of his directing and the scope of his, the way that he kind of ran this show is that he never let you forget that like there's actually something really stressful happening here in the midst of all these funny moments.

[566] It's so interesting to think about I don't know, just how this movie has persisted over the years.

[567] I mean, honestly, if you only remember Pacino from, like, maybe Scarface or, like, scent of a woman, you will be maybe shocked by how good he is in this movie.

[568] No, you're just like, oh, you know, for all that pomp and circumstance that people have known him for over the years.

[569] He's, like, a downright, fantastic actor.

[570] And, like, I feel like this movie really shows that.

[571] Yes.

[572] The energy that he has to hold from the get -go, And it truly is from when he's sitting in that car and just sitting there staring straight ahead and it's so intense.

[573] And then it just goes up from there and it never comes down.

[574] That energy of like, because there was some scene where it's like, like third time he went outside and him and Charles Durning are just screaming back and forth and it's so intense and the crowd's involved and the cops and it's like, don't shoot and all this stuff.

[575] And then in my mind I was just like, all right, cut.

[576] We'll take that again.

[577] It's like nothing about this feels like a movie.

[578] And I'm sure it has to do with the directing or whatever, where the cameras are or something or just the verity of it.

[579] But like, you just completely forget that you're not watching a documentary already.

[580] Those are the moments that feel improvised in a good way because they're so heightened where it actually seems like Sunny and Charles Durning are like legitimately arguing for their lives.

[581] You know, saying the wrong thing.

[582] that doesn't sound scripted because everyone's kind of flubbing and means this and says that on accident because everyone's nervous because there's guns trained at everyone.

[583] It's like perfectly imperfect in the way they interact with each other.

[584] And it's a dance between, like there's so many moments when those two characters and those two actors are talking where you forget that there's an entire crowd surrounding them.

[585] So it's very intricate and very intimate dance that they're doing.

[586] Those are the moments that make me feel like the acting is out of this world for this movie.

[587] And I think it just has this very lived -in quality, and I think that's, like, again, I think it's the era of filmmaking, but also just this particular film.

[588] And when I watched the dog documentary again, I began to think, like, oh, well, I feel like the Pacino character in the movie, I think he's designed to be a more sympathetic character.

[589] Like, you don't want him to die.

[590] You want him to get away in a weird way.

[591] They're like, yes, get on that plane and go to Algeria and everything will be great.

[592] And these people will just be your roommates.

[593] Like they will just, you'll have to buy them new clothes and they have a new life and whatever.

[594] But it's, yeah, you'll figure it out.

[595] You'll figure it out.

[596] Also, I do have to say that right up until the end, and our listeners are probably going to be like, what?

[597] You never talk about the ending.

[598] But we kind of have to in this one because it's interesting and it's a true crime story.

[599] But at the end, they get to the airport and there's this jet just taxiing.

[600] It could not be more stressful.

[601] Everything is heightened.

[602] The hostages are starting to freak out and cry.

[603] He promised that he would set one free when they got to the airport and they're trying to negotiate who gets to go.

[604] And people are sobbing.

[605] And then this jet just comes cruising by and it says modern air.

[606] And I'm like, it may as well have been called like, we are definitely a jet airline.

[607] It's like it just looks so like crayola crayon.

[608] But it's that whole airport scene happens.

[609] Everything happens so fast.

[610] Yeah.

[611] I just felt very emotional at the end, and I wasn't expecting to feel that emotional.

[612] But every time I watch this, I am.

[613] Yeah.

[614] Also, the sound engineering of the movie.

[615] And I think it got nominated for something also, the sound engineering.

[616] It was so loud and overwhelming in the way that you can imagine a giant jet, especially in the 70s, because there's no regulations, just pulling up on you, and you're about to have to run onto that.

[617] It was like so, it definitely exactly heightened the stress of the situation.

[618] that they were in.

[619] Like, we had him muted.

[620] It was so...

[621] It was so loud.

[622] And I'm like, are you allowed to, like, read people their Miranda rights over the sound of a jet?

[623] Is that so legal if they can't physically hear you?

[624] God, you know, the guy that drove the car?

[625] I think he was...

[626] I think, was it Lance Hendrickson who played that?

[627] It was a young, hot, Lance Henriksen.

[628] Who's he?

[629] What's he from?

[630] Danielle may know.

[631] Here we got pumpkinhead, millennium.

[632] Aliens, all right.

[633] Oh, that's right.

[634] He wasn't aliens.

[635] A pumpkin head.

[636] Pumpkin head.

[637] Can you imagine being in dog day afternoon and we're like, what was he in?

[638] Pumpkin head.

[639] Pumpkin head.

[640] Shit.

[641] I should have started with aliens, but, you know, pumpkin head.

[642] He had a later life career, which is kind of fascinating because him showing up and looking young, he almost looks like a weird, he looks kind of like a mannequin.

[643] He has such a perfect face.

[644] Well, everyone looks so different.

[645] Honestly, I didn't realize how after I, and I, you know, watched finish the movie and looked everyone up, especially Leon, because he was so amazing, that it was Chris Sarandon and that it was Humphard Ink.

[646] Yep, from Princess Bride.

[647] I lost my mind.

[648] I lost my mind.

[649] I was screaming at Vince showing him IMDV, and that he was married to Susan Sarandon.

[650] I didn't know any of this.

[651] I'm an 80s baby, so I think I missed a lot of these 70s, like, classics, because this is like a movie my brother would want her to rent.

[652] I would have been like, it's boring.

[653] I don't want to watch this.

[654] So I was pretty shocked and excited.

[655] Yeah, it's fun.

[656] It's fun to go on the dive to find out who they are.

[657] I like the fact that when Leon was talking both times, I couldn't stop thinking about Linda Belcher.

[658] And I was just like, he actually sounds like John Roberts doing the character of the mom that wants you to come see the tree, the tree.

[659] And I was just like, it was such a perfectly played, such a realistic character.

[660] It's amazing, knowing him from Princess Bride.

[661] It was just like, look at this act.

[662] When I watch and rewatch movies like this or things that are classics and you see people in the background, you're like, holy shit, that's that person.

[663] It is remarkable to be reminded of the strength of someone's acting from watching them as a younger actor develop into what you knew them from.

[664] So like the Humperdink thing.

[665] And it's like, oh my God, he was so good in that movie that that's how you tend to think of him.

[666] Then he comes out of the woodwork and you're like, wait a minute, he was already great.

[667] And this is just a testament to how he's grown and what he's able to showcase.

[668] And I think it's just that reminder that acting as a skill is always welcome to me. Right.

[669] And it's the reason why Pacino is parody.

[670] Between this movie and Scarface, I'm like, oh, that's where that comes from, where every, you know, the comedians who do parodies of him and the sketch shows and like, this is where it comes from.

[671] But it comes from a place of pure, great acting.

[672] And it had to be that good that he could be parodied.

[673] Right.

[674] But it's weird to see, like, the formation of that in a role.

[675] Yeah.

[676] I'm so glad that we all got to watch this movie together because it's, I think the crime itself is really fascinating.

[677] You know, just from reading and watching that, like I said, that documentary I keep talking about the dog and just sort of reading about, like, I went back and I read the original Life magazine article too, and it's just like this very, like, interesting set of people who were involved and like, I thought it was interesting that it involved kind of this like, almost like a gay, underground movement in New York with like, you know, that's how all of the guys that met each other to do the crime.

[678] That's how they knew each other was from like gay bars and Greenwich Village and, you know, that kind of stuff.

[679] And just the whole idea that this movie is, you know, somehow funny and tense and is still talked about and is still really important.

[680] I just think that's a really fascinating intersection.

[681] You know what I mean?

[682] Yeah.

[683] Yeah.

[684] It really is.

[685] I loved rewatching this movie.

[686] I haven't seen it in ages.

[687] And I always find something.

[688] something new to focus on.

[689] I always find something interesting.

[690] You know, I didn't watch that documentary, but I did try to look up people from the original case, because at the end of the film, they give such a brief synopsis.

[691] Like, you know, his wife and kids are on welfare, and you're like, but then what?

[692] Right.

[693] What happened to them?

[694] And, you know, his partner got their, you know, sexual reassignment surgery, and you're like, okay, but again, then what?

[695] Yeah.

[696] It was such a great movie that I, it made me want to know more.

[697] more about the true crime factor of it and kind of give the victims and the people who are involved their due.

[698] It also made me wonder, who are the victims here?

[699] Like, who actually were the victims in this setup and in this crime?

[700] Because it's not as cut and dry as like, you know, they robbed the bank and they shot that guy.

[701] It's like they were kind of victimized in a certain way, culturally, and, you know, in a classist way.

[702] Their hostages were definitely victims at certain points, even though they seem to be having fun with it.

[703] The character of Sal was a victim in the end.

[704] It just, I don't know, just made me really want to question more about how we conceive of victimhood, which is probably too heavy for a movie, but that's how great it is.

[705] It made me really think.

[706] But, I mean, because it's a true story, it is a totally relevant point.

[707] And to me, I think, up until the part, like, the first time there was someone one of the women tellers that was shown crying once they got into the van.

[708] In my mind, I was like, what are you crying for?

[709] They're making it.

[710] Like, this is all positive.

[711] And then I was like, oh, that's right.

[712] They know.

[713] All of them actually know.

[714] This can't actually go.

[715] This isn't going to work.

[716] Something's going to happen.

[717] And then not to like complete spoiler, but just the final moment that kind of ends the crime taking place was so strong.

[718] Oh my gosh.

[719] No kidding.

[720] I mean, if you didn't think they were victims in the bank just hanging out, it came together pretty solidly in the van at the airport where it's just like, wow, that is, if that's really what happened, those poor, poor people and like, awful, just awful.

[721] Yeah, that final scene of the hostages walking away, they don't turn around to Sunny to see if he's okay or to acknowledge him in any way.

[722] they keep walking and that's, I think that for me was when I realized this is going to be a trauma, not just because of the ending of it, which was very, very horrifying, but this whole thing for them has been a trauma.

[723] Yeah, they bonded with their captors, but, you know, they're not turning around to wave or bid them good luck.

[724] See in 20 years, you know.

[725] No, not at all.

[726] Definitely.

[727] Yeah, I agree.

[728] I think that that moment made me kind of look at how much processing there was to do after that event.

[729] But the movie ended in a great place, I think.

[730] At first I was kind of upset because I'm like, I want to know everything.

[731] Like, I wanted a book or I wanted something.

[732] But I think it ends in a place where it leaves the viewer questioning as much as the hostages probably were questioning.

[733] And it leaves the viewers in an uncertainty that everyone involved in it was probably feeling too.

[734] Yeah.

[735] I mean, I have to say, I do love little facts that come up at the end of a true story movie where they're like just an FYI for you to leave with.

[736] I always love that.

[737] But the idea that although they dead name Leon, Leon gets his surgery, I was like, this is kind of a victory in a way because we know these people, even though they did it illegally and they did it incorrectly and they traumatized a bunch of people.

[738] At the same time, there is this little to me, I was like oh yay, hey, at least they get that.

[739] At least that.

[740] At least that.

[741] happened.

[742] I know.

[743] I'm sorry I keep talking about the dog, but it's like, I mean, it's crazy.

[744] It is like the kind of perfect thing that will just tell you about this guy.

[745] And like, when he signed the rights off to make the film, he was paid, you know, I don't know, like $7 ,500, $8 ,000 or something.

[746] And that's what he gave her to get her surgery.

[747] So basically, he won, basically.

[748] He did the thing that he set out to do, which is that to pay for him.

[749] his wife's surgery.

[750] So it's kind of that thing where you're like, wow, well, then it happened.

[751] Like, it actually did happen the way that he wanted it.

[752] That's beautiful.

[753] Yeah.

[754] Wow.

[755] It really is like, he is a very complex individual.

[756] Like, he's definitely like that character, you know, like in that way where he's out on the sidewalk and he's kind of like preening and doing his like performance.

[757] That's kind of his vibe, right?

[758] He was kind of that person in real life.

[759] I just think that's fascinating.

[760] Like, the whole thing is really fascinating.

[761] And they show, like, all this great footage of the...

[762] So when he got out of jail, he would go back to the bank and sign autographs and shit in front of...

[763] Yes.

[764] And then there was a scene from this footage where one of the tellers that he held hostage was also in front of the bank.

[765] And she was like, I can't believe that guy's signing autographs.

[766] This is crazy.

[767] Like, he held me hostage, by the way.

[768] Did anybody remember that?

[769] And I was like, damn, that is...

[770] nuts.

[771] Like, I was, like, watching it going, that is nuts.

[772] That's crazy, right?

[773] Out of jail.

[774] Like, after he got out of jail, he did that.

[775] And then that bank teller also still worked there, like, 20 years.

[776] Or I don't know why she was there because it wasn't even a bank or something.

[777] It was like a dry cleaners or, I don't know, something like that.

[778] But she was...

[779] She probably still lived in the neighborhood.

[780] Yeah, exactly.

[781] Oh, yeah.

[782] That's right.

[783] That is wild.

[784] Yeah.

[785] It's crazy.

[786] So nuts.

[787] Well, that was a great pick.

[788] I mean, that was such a a good movie.

[789] Love a True Story.

[790] Pretty epic.

[791] Pretty epic film.

[792] Yeah.

[793] It was fun to watch.

[794] And this one I was really excited about.

[795] And it's fade off.

[796] It was great.

[797] Perfect true crime.

[798] I'm glad you liked it.

[799] And I'm glad that we picked a movie you hadn't seen before.

[800] That's always the most fun.

[801] And I think that's also part the reason why we do our podcasts.

[802] We want to introduce people to movies that they've either never seen or haven't seen in a long time or didn't think that they should see because it wasn't like something they would typically watch.

[803] And so it's just really nice to hear from you both and the way that we hear from a lot of our listeners who say, like, I'd never even considered watching that.

[804] And I'm so glad I did.

[805] Or, you know, it's not usually something I would pick out.

[806] And I'm really glad I watched it.

[807] Yes.

[808] All for Pacino's hot era.

[809] His young hot era.

[810] With the perfect, like, what do they call that?

[811] Like, the roosters comb haircut.

[812] Like, yeah, he's pretty beautiful.

[813] That young, fluffy hair.

[814] This big worried eyes, so worried.

[815] He looks so worried all the time.

[816] Well, thank you guys so much for hosting this and for basically coming to do your podcast on our podcast.

[817] We really appreciate it.

[818] So hopefully you listened to, I saw what you did here on the Exactly Right Network.

[819] If not, new episodes drop every Tuesday, but you can also go into the back catalog.

[820] You can basically go find out what the movies are, pre -watch them, listen, or you can do the thing where I like to do on road trips, where you just listen and basically have someone describe and discuss a movie for you so you don't have to.

[821] It's the best.

[822] Also Danielle Henderson's memoir, The Ugly Cry, was just released in paperback.

[823] Congratulations.

[824] So go get that if you haven't read it.

[825] Also, Millie is the programmer for TCM Underground.

[826] It's a weekly late -night cult film showcase.

[827] It airs every Friday night on Turner Classic Movies.

[828] We look forward to Vince and I every Friday night to what you're going to pick.

[829] You're so good at this.

[830] And she also just wrote her first book, TCM Underground, 50 must -see films from the world of classic cult and late -night cinema.

[831] And we're really excited for that book as well.

[832] The book is available on October 4th, and it's available now for pre -order.

[833] So check that out.

[834] And great job, you guys.

[835] Thank you so much.

[836] Thank you.

[837] Thank you.

[838] So fun.

[839] Thank you, guys.

[840] Elvis.

[841] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[842] This has been an exactly right production.

[843] Our senior producers are Hannah Kyle Pryton and Natalie Wren.

[844] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[845] This episode was engineered and mixed by Andrew Eepen.

[846] Email your hometowns and fucking hoorays to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[847] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and on Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[848] Goodbye.

[849] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spot, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[850] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[851] Visit exactly right store .com to purchase my favorite murder merch.