Mark Ronson

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Minica Mouse.

[3] Hello there.

[4] Hi.

[5] You know, Moni has really taken over.

[6] I've noticed lately.

[7] Everyone really is settled into Moni.

[8] Our pod calls me Moni.

[9] Yeah, I like it.

[10] Do you like it?

[11] I like it.

[12] No, I like it, but it's brand new.

[13] No one has ever called me that.

[14] Not in college?

[15] No, they all call me Mon.

[16] Mon.

[17] Yeah.

[18] That's always been my nickname.

[19] Oh, I like Mon.

[20] That's the go -to.

[21] Mon.

[22] Like, Callie would never call me Monica.

[23] No. No, or Moni.

[24] Definitely not call me Monnie.

[25] Oh, but it's nice because it's like a baby name.

[26] So I actually think that's why it happened because a Kristen started it.

[27] Okay.

[28] And I'm her baby.

[29] She's your mom.

[30] Yes.

[31] And so.

[32] She's your wife.

[33] Yes.

[34] And your daughter.

[35] But one of the people I am is her baby.

[36] So she kind of gave me a baby name.

[37] Right, right, right.

[38] And it's cute.

[39] It's very cute.

[40] It's very endearing.

[41] It's a sweet name.

[42] When I hear people call you at around the house, I like it a lot.

[43] Yeah, it feels like I'm really loved.

[44] Yes, yes, it's a good one.

[45] And it has taken over.

[46] You're right.

[47] Well, speaking of people with fun nicknames, Marky, Mark Ronson.

[48] I wonder if people call them Marky.

[49] Probably when you're a Mark, growing up, people call you Marky.

[50] Do they?

[51] Yeah, Marky.

[52] Okay.

[53] I think.

[54] We'll have to interview them again.

[55] I ask them what they called them marking.

[56] Mark Ronson is a seven -time Grammy Award -winning, Oscar Award -winning, record producer, and DJ.

[57] He's collaborated with Amy Winehouse, Adele, Lady Gaga, Lily Allen, Miley Cyrus, Queens at the Stone Age, and Bruno Mars.

[58] It's incredible resume.

[59] So fun to talk to.

[60] Really great conversation.

[61] And he has a new podcast that is out now called The Fader Uncovered, a series of in -depth conversations with the world's most impactful musicians, from genre defining stars to avant -garde pioneers.

[62] Each episode is rooted in these musical iconic fader cover stories.

[63] So Fader is a magazine, and it's a really cool podcast.

[64] I listen to it.

[65] So everyone should check out The Fader Uncovered.

[66] Please enjoy Mark Ronson.

[67] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[68] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[69] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[70] He's an armchairxswain.

[71] This is not an interview.

[72] Hey, are we wearing matching headphones?

[73] I believe so.

[74] I imagine because we're audio files?

[75] That makes me feel good that we have the same headphones as him.

[76] Exactly.

[77] Yeah.

[78] It's not really a feather in your cap, but it's a huge feather in our cap.

[79] It's a feather for the Senheiser organization, I think, is what's going on.

[80] I listened to the Russell Brand one and it was so great like you said he's just so smart and there were times when I was like is the podcast playing back fast or is this just how he talks or is he reading this but anyway there was at certain points I was like but I would do anything to like literally send an audio engineer to give Russell Brand a microphone in his house this is a dude who like makes audible books books.

[81] He makes his living off his voice and his thoughts, things he write.

[82] I know there's a studio somewhere in the back of that crib, but yet, but yet we are all being, you know, privy to this genius freaking, you know, back and forth between the three of you, but his voice has to sound like it's coming out of a clock radio MP3 player.

[83] Well, it's not unlike, like, listening to a phonograph album from 1918.

[84] You're like, I wonder what this person would sound like with some good recording.

[85] is true that that is a testament to like he's just so brilliant that it doesn't really matter you know because i am an audio engineer part of my job is putting mics in front of things in front of drum kits in front of singers so like i was listening to i was like i would love the full range of the expression of the timbre of his voice that must ruin a lot of shit for you we talk all the time about like knowing too much about how movies are made and tv shows so it's almost impossible for my wife and monica and i to watch a program because we're like oh clearly they had rain that day they called it, they flipped this screen, you know, just all the shit you're aware of while you're watching or listening.

[86] I know.

[87] This sounds like I'm being like coy or trying to be funny, but I can't listen to music during sex.

[88] I don't know if that's like a real like myth anywhere.

[89] Barry White and Marvin Gay and baby making music, but for me, it would literally just be like, oh, that snare drum.

[90] Oh, I bet that's like a, you know, a Slingerlin Piccolo and the mic is slightly angled off access.

[91] Like I just can't listen to music and I love music and I could really enjoy it at home but I think that anything where also the rhythm then your body would be co -opted by the rhythm of the music sure can I make a suggestion yeah if you were ever to make love to someone who you were nervous was just too attractive and you were you would not be able to maintain your composure a .k .a. Maybe pop on some music because you'd be so distracted by that that you could probably stay in the saddle for a long time.

[92] I mean, we're old as fuck, right?

[93] We're both in 1975.

[94] Yes, both 75.

[95] Oh, wow.

[96] Same age.

[97] I was not expecting that.

[98] I'm his elder.

[99] Oh, you thought he was way younger than me. What a bummer.

[100] Yeah.

[101] I didn't even have to ask, really.

[102] Look at that youthful skin.

[103] How old are you?

[104] You're nowhere near our age, right?

[105] 30.

[106] About to be 34.

[107] I'm not that far off.

[108] 13 years.

[109] 12 years.

[110] 12, nice 12.

[111] Well, it's a Mark, because he's a September birthday.

[112] So he's not quite 46 yet.

[113] What is your birthday?

[114] January 2nd.

[115] Okay, so you just turned.

[116] So you're like nine months younger.

[117] You know what?

[118] I have two really, really close friends that are January 5th, and I have two other best friends are October 9th.

[119] I know one of the January 5th.

[120] Oh, you do?

[121] Bradley?

[122] Yeah.

[123] Yeah, Bradley Cooper.

[124] So we're best buddies.

[125] We were born three days apart.

[126] We both got sober a month.

[127] month apart some 16 years ago.

[128] We were both born death.

[129] What?

[130] He was too?

[131] Whoa, weird.

[132] We might be the same person.

[133] He, the really talented version and me, the street fighter version.

[134] I noticed you said that on the Russell Bram one, and are you into birth years, birth signs, that kind of stuff, or is it only if just someone's 75?

[135] I'm into the panic of getting older and seeing my heroes not walking as briskly as they did.

[136] I'm just more probably obsessed with how long the ride is, more than, like, astrological signs or anything.

[137] How are you feeling emotionally about being, at best case, midway through?

[138] No, whenever anyone teases me about, like, something that might be attributed to a midlife crisis, I'm like, I'm way past mid -thagued.

[139] Thank you for saying that, but I'm way past mid -life.

[140] Yes, yes.

[141] I wonder if you were ever good friends with DJ AM in Los Angeles.

[142] I was.

[143] Yeah, with Adam.

[144] I figured you might have been.

[145] And Adam was so incredibly talented, this DJ before he would have been the guy making $30 million a year in Vegas because he had the wild combination of incredible command of the crowd and technical skills were unparalleled.

[146] And I remember he was like a year older than me. We were about the same level of technical talent until he just exploded one year because I think he just spent the entire year at home practicing.

[147] And I remember in my head, It was such a dumb thing to say, but I was like, well, I always have a year to catch up.

[148] And then as that lag became greater and greater, it would be silly, it would be like being like, you know, like, say if I was a year younger than LeBron James and just started playing basketball, and be like, I always have a year to catch him.

[149] Like, it's not.

[150] Yeah.

[151] But that would be my thing.

[152] And so I understand what you mean.

[153] I think because I'm probably in the most stable, happy, comfortable part of my life that I've ever been in.

[154] And I've let go of some of that.

[155] I have this long to achieve this thing or that sort of thing.

[156] So I feel pretty good where I am for the first time probably ever.

[157] And that might not have anything to do with my age.

[158] Like I'm sure probably financially you're more stable than you ever were.

[159] I am.

[160] There's like a lot of things I think that culminate.

[161] You do get older and you stop obsessing to the degree you did, I think.

[162] And then you do acquire some, quote, safety financially maybe career -wise.

[163] Do you do this thing?

[164] As an actor, you know, you're always playing this game of, I don't know, how old was De Niro when he did blank?

[165] How old was so -and -so?

[166] And then you're holding on to these people that became stars really late in life.

[167] And then at my age, you recognize, like, no one was discovered at 47.

[168] Like, so whatever the height of my acting mountain, it's behind me now.

[169] But you're in one of my favorite movies of all time, but I'll give you three guesses to what that might be, actually.

[170] Because you've been in a lot of movies Idiocracy No oh fuck I forgot you in that It's a fucking amazing movie Yes You're in some kind of books For that one You are And that is obviously Become more and more prescient And it's probably harder to watch As we've gotten Closer to it But what Okay Other two What would you guess Oh wow And it's a it's a movie Not a TV show Baby Mama Oh Oh Baby Mama is I don't know what it is And I know I'm not the exact demographic for that film, but maybe because I've just wanted to have kids and maybe, you know, the first point of my life where that actually feels like a reality on the horizon, which is wonderful.

[171] But I've always felt like Tina Faye and that date in the opening scene when she's just like, that was the last 10 years of dating for me. And it's just a brilliant when Amy Polo says they get in that fight and she's like, I'm sorry I's mean to you.

[172] And Amy He goes, and I'm sorry I farted in your purse.

[173] That is one of the all -time.

[174] And you're great in it.

[175] Oh, thank you.

[176] I'm glad you liked that one.

[177] You know, as you were making me guess, I was kind of like, is he a drama guy or is he a comedy guy?

[178] Yeah, I probably wouldn't have got there for a while.

[179] This interview is taking the exact turn I want at all times, which is celebrate my acting career.

[180] No. When I am curious about so many things, I got to say, I knew of you, of course, as a producer and a songwriter, but I didn't know anything about your story.

[181] And it's a pretty intriguing story in a lot of ways.

[182] First and foremost, born in London Town.

[183] No one says that.

[184] Do they London Town?

[185] I say it sometimes.

[186] And it's cute.

[187] Yeah, and there's a great R &B disco song from the late 70s called London Town.

[188] There weren't a lot of big English R &B hits because all that music came from America, but there's a great song called London Town.

[189] And so you moved to New York City at eight years old, but I'm interested in your family a little bit.

[190] Yeah.

[191] And I'll tell you why.

[192] It's not just a perverse interest in money, which I do have for sure.

[193] But I'm really impressed when people like of means succeed.

[194] Because I think so many people have a hard time finding a drive when they grow up with all the things they would want.

[195] I don't even know what they're aspiring to have.

[196] Like Nick Kroll is one of my favorites in that respect.

[197] Had the gumption and the drive but probably didn't need to have any of that or julia louise dreyfus another person like so anyways i'm really interested in that is any of it true what i read was your family really wealthy no that well that's the thing i think is that not to dis your uh research methods but is that wikipedia maybe you know i use a very exclusive site that people don't have access to um is that on it's probably on wikipedia as well it might also be on in wikipedia it says something about my family, my father being a real estate magnate, which is like, okay, I definitely came from a successful family.

[198] My grandfather was East London kind of like tough Jew, like it was probably his dad was either a butcher or a milkman.

[199] They were like old school gangster East London Jews from Brick Lane.

[200] So my grandfather started this company that then became like owning gas stations or petrol stations they call around the country.

[201] So by the time I grew up, you know, I came from like a nice upper -middle -class North London Jewish upbringing for sure.

[202] My dad's brother is like this crazy real estate tycoon magnet who's like built this crazy thing, went down with some scandal in the 80s, this business scandal, went to jail, lost everything, built it all back up again.

[203] He's like next level.

[204] That's the headline I read that he had accumulated this enormous real estate fortune and lost a billion dollars in the 90s during some real estate collapse.

[205] And I didn't even read the jailing part.

[206] That's exciting.

[207] So my dad was always more into music, managed bands, and I mean, he would even say in his youth a little bit of the party guy, black sheep of the family in that way, because they just didn't get music and what he was doing.

[208] And then my stepdad is a very successful musician.

[209] He started the band Foreigner and wrote all these incredible songs like, I want to know what love is.

[210] So to drum your point home, yes, I wouldn't have wanted for anything as a kid.

[211] We certainly weren't like the trumps or jaggers, but like totally, you're really.

[212] are correct.

[213] Right.

[214] And so what I like about that is I pursued this, A, I wanted to be famous, B, I liked being funny.

[215] C, I wanted money.

[216] But for you, or like Nick, you had an insane fascination with music, right?

[217] I have to imagine, because what I know about you is that you somehow got yourself an internship at Rolling Stone at 12 years old.

[218] Is that apocryph?

[219] No, that is real.

[220] I was extremely obsessed with music and the minutia of it, you know, not just like the sounds and being in love with the songs and loving Duran Duran, but also reading trades at like eight because my stepdad, he didn't even read the trades, but he would get Billboard because he's a successful rock star.

[221] Like, what do you do?

[222] You see how your album's doing that week, and then you throw it in the trash.

[223] I'm reading like, you know, behind the scenes.

[224] I don't know why I found it interesting because I had nobody else to talk to about it in school.

[225] Like, it was just something that I wanted to digest because it was something that was in the makeup of the thing that I really love music.

[226] So let me learn everything about it and I found it interesting.

[227] Yeah, to me, it sounded almost like there was some comfort in the minutia, the shit that would have bored most people.

[228] You somehow saw an order to or were searching for an order to or somehow felt comforted by.

[229] I think so.

[230] I think I just loved music so much as like, I want to know everything about it.

[231] Maybe it's also because I was never prodigiously talented at like one instrument, right?

[232] Like I was always kind of okay at a bunch of things.

[233] It was like the worst guitar player in my high school band.

[234] I would have other friends that would go off and come back in the summer and they could just like shred Van Halen and living color riffs.

[235] And I couldn't.

[236] So I probably somewhere in the back of my mind just was like, all right, well, let me just learn everything.

[237] Because at least then I'll have this toolkit, which is essentially what kind of being a record producer is this toolkit of like knowledge of the history of music, of arranging.

[238] You can play a little bit of everything.

[239] But maybe because I wasn't incredible.

[240] at one thing I was like well let me just learn everything pretty good I can so relate to that yeah like thinking you're not going to be a musician per se but you know you must be involved in this industry somehow so I'm going to explore every possible that's why I interned at rolling stone because I was like maybe I want to be a journalist that's why you know I nearly went to northwestern because I had a good journalism school I wrote for hip -hop zines and then I started DJing just like anything that can put me in this world I'm going to just figure it out till I find the thing that feels like I belong here, right, or that I slot in here.

[241] Do you think part of it also perhaps, and you can say no, but I think when we interview people and when I know people who get like really, really, really, really obsessed with a subject, even me with like friends, I was obsessed with friends and I knew every single thing about it.

[242] It was a fantasy.

[243] It was a way for me to escape my life and go into this other world.

[244] And the more tiny details I absorbed, the more that fantasy became, quote, real to me. Well, I definitely see parallels in that.

[245] I mean, because basically there's a lot of things that you can do in music.

[246] You can be like a frontman.

[247] You can be a guitar.

[248] There's all these different personalities.

[249] You could be a rapper.

[250] I found the one thing that guaranteed I was going to spend the most amount of time by myself in a tiny room possible, right?

[251] like being a record producer I did grow up in a like a turbulent household there was a lot of fights and substance and things going on and I think that the idea of retreating to the room nobody can fucking get to me here and I'm going to be the captain of my own ship was probably a very appealing thing I think control I have full control and nobody can hurt me here is probably a lot of what got me into those things And then the genuine love for friends.

[252] I know.

[253] At music.

[254] I would be so disappointed if you grew up in a rock star household and those things didn't exist.

[255] I'd feel like you got screwed out of the experience.

[256] Okay.

[257] So when you start DJing, again, talk about a thing to control.

[258] Like you're in charge of exactly how this will sound.

[259] When you want to start something, when you want to fade something, all those little components must have been intoxicated.

[260] It was.

[261] I was playing in high school bands, 10th, 11th, 12th grade, and then I got super into hip -hop, and it was like the early 90s in New York, and there was Nas, Wu -Tang, all these things coming.

[262] New York was so exciting.

[263] And I was like, I'm definitely not a rapper.

[264] I don't know how to produce yet.

[265] So DJing is this thing that I can do that fits me into this world that I love.

[266] So I got turntables.

[267] I started to learn by just listening to Funkmaster Flex and stretch arms song on the radio and emulating their routines, just getting it wrong, so you figure it out, like learning a Beatles song on guitar and so I think that there's two kinds of DJs really there's somebody that like goes in the room and they can probably really break down to psychological archetypes somebody who like goes in and just wants to turn the room out and just give people the best time which has some different traits in it you could call that people pleasing you could call that being intoxicated off the energy kind of like ego so you want everybody to look at you because they're having the best time and then there's somebody who might just go in and be like fuck it I'm just going to play whatever the fuck I want, which is like a DJ shadow type or somebody like, probably not a club DJ, not like what me or AM would consider ourselves.

[268] It wasn't just the control of going in and being able to like dictate the mood of the room.

[269] There was a bit of this like people pleasery thing and they're like, I'm going to like give everybody the best time.

[270] And I mean, that's what being a DJ sort of is.

[271] You could argue anyway.

[272] So maybe I'm getting a little deep on it.

[273] Yeah, you're a party pumper.

[274] Exactly.

[275] There is a component of control in there in the same way that there isn't comedy which is like if I meet strangers I have anxiety like how is this interaction going to go but I have this secret weapon that I can make jokes and then I'm totally in control of how it goes like I make jokes they laugh you put this song and they dance you put this other one on they go even crazier it does put you in control of the interaction I only remember this really recently but I remember when my mom remarried got married to my stepdad I was nine years old and I remember everybody was out in the garden on the lawn, like, kind of parting, and I saw the music was coming from this little tape deck.

[276] I guess there were like these old school DJ rigs from the 80s with like a double cassette deck.

[277] This was like a budget version of having two turntables.

[278] And I remember that if I could like line up the two songs and get it queued so that there was a little space between the first song and the next song playing, it was a lot of fun.

[279] And I got off on this thing that like, whoa, and everybody out there is listening to one.

[280] I'm playing in here.

[281] So I mean, I mean, there's no layered subtext.

[282] I mean, that is literally DJing.

[283] I never realized till recently remembering that anecdote.

[284] There's an element too to what you've done.

[285] There's almost like a computer programmer sensibility to it, right?

[286] As far as in like the tediousness of the minute controls in the amount of like singular focus, as you say, you were kind of by yourself in the room doing this.

[287] Yes, especially in modern times the way we make music we're working with software so there is this idea of being in front of a computer but there's also without the kind of divine inspiration quincy jones has that quote and you always got to leave a little space to let god in the room or whatever you believe that thing is there's divine inspiration i mean of course i wish i know it's not a practicality but that i was stevie wonder john lennon i'm just going to sit at the piano and like this fucking lightning bolt's going to come through me and a song's come out.

[288] That's not really my talent.

[289] I mean, I have some of that, and I can write music and get the song going and come up with some chords and melodies that will inspire someone.

[290] But the other part is that I am good at the more minutia part, and being a producer is such a vague title, because everybody has their little magic toolbox, but it's being this fucking superintendent's headmaster school sometimes.

[291] Sometimes it's just like being a cheerleader.

[292] Sometimes it's knowing when to get out of the way and sometimes it's being like hey why don't we go here with this chord my friend richard russell who started excel recordings that has like the white stripes and adele and like this great label he says something in his book where he says um being a record producer is really just the serious of making the right decisions at the right time it's nothing but that really yeah you know i was going to ask you later i'm going to ask you now because it's kind of i thought of my own way to explain it because i imagine some people have no clue what a producer does and as well in movies there's like 80 different versions of what a producer does.

[293] But I was watching the Billy Eilish documentary.

[294] I have to assume you see that.

[295] I haven't seen it yet.

[296] I heard it's really good.

[297] It's great.

[298] It's so good.

[299] And her brother, as I watched him, those two work together, I thought, oh, this guy's an archaeologist, right?

[300] He's like dusting away these obstacles so that the artifact can be revealed.

[301] That's a great way to put it.

[302] And he was so beautiful at recognizing.

[303] what the roadblocks were encouraging this avenue like it was therapy at times in the kindness and the patience and everything I just thought well that's a what a fucking asset yeah that is yeah I mean there's that expression right that like Michelangelo didn't make David he just chipped away it to the stone to reveal it and there's this idea of like when like you're saying dusting off and being an archaeologist when I'm in the studio with someone like this is a I hate when I use like some of the bold face names because I just feel like I'm like one of those assholes is just like, and when I did this or...

[304] No, you've earned it.

[305] When I first got together with Lady Gaga to work together on the Joanne album, it could have gone a hundred different ways.

[306] She's obviously incredibly versatile.

[307] She can make pop records.

[308] She can make jazz records.

[309] She can do whatever.

[310] And she just came into Rick Rubin's studio and Shangri -La in like cowboy boots, cut off jeans, and a pink cowboy hat.

[311] And I was like, all right, so like, we should make this strip back very honest, like almost acoustic -y type of Stevie Nix -ish record, because that just seems like that's what you're telling me right now.

[312] You know, the first time I met, I'm sitting in the room, actually, my old studio, I just got back from 15 years ago.

[313] I first met Amy Winehouse, and she just came in, and I was like, what kind of record do you want to make?

[314] Like, I didn't have anything.

[315] I'd never made anything that sounded like Back to Black before.

[316] She just played me the Shangri -Las in the 60s stuff, and she was like, I kind of like this.

[317] They play this down at my local, like her, pub.

[318] And I was like, cool.

[319] Like, I don't know how to make that either, but, like, come back tomorrow.

[320] And that's literally what happened.

[321] And I came up with the piano and, like, the little skeletal drumbeat for Back to Black.

[322] And she came in the next day.

[323] And she's like, yeah, fucking give me the headphones and went in the back and wrote the song in, like, an hour.

[324] So empathetic in both a DJ and a music producer.

[325] Like, as a DJ, you have to know what people want at any moment.

[326] And then, yeah, you're just like feeling the vibe of the people around you.

[327] Yeah, exactly.

[328] So, because I want to get into a couple of those specific stories, but the actual transformation from DJ to producer, how do you go from that?

[329] Like 18 years old, you're working steadily as a DJ throughout New York, and then at some point, you officially go into creating.

[330] So I had always wanted to play music and be in a band and all this kind of stuff.

[331] And then I realized, like, I was never going to be like slash.

[332] So I got really into hip -hop.

[333] So that just sort of took over.

[334] And then after a year, I was like, oh, I'm.

[335] getting pretty good at this and people like when I do this and playing in New York in these downtown club scenes and it just sort of took over my life because it was exciting I was making money off of it and whatever and then Dominic Traneer who's this fantastic guy who managed DiAngelo and had his own label he had this artist named Nika Costa this incredible singer and he came to my DJ sets where I would play funk and soul but also ACDC and Shaka Khan and hip hop and he'd be Like, I signed this girl.

[336] I don't know what her music's supposed to sound like, but it's supposed to feel like one of these fucking DJ sets.

[337] Do you make music?

[338] And I was like, yeah, sure.

[339] And I was so underdeveloped and obviously had nowhere near enough know -how to like match this woman's phenomenal musicality and voice.

[340] But I just got a chance to learn on the job.

[341] And just we kind of figured it out.

[342] And then that record came out.

[343] My first solo record, which sold like 10 copies, but it happened to have like pseudo hit.

[344] England this record called Owee with Ghost Face and Nate Dog and that's how I ended up meeting Amy Winehouse and Lily Allen and that's sort of when I kind of figured out what I was doing and my career took some momentum that was here comes the buzz was my first album yeah how did on your first album because you had you also had jack white and most deaf like how did you have those relationships already basically some of those people I just knew from the new york club scene most deaf and Sean Paul was just like coming up at that time and you know one of the things of being a DJ you're kind of onto shit before it really blows up especially before streaming and stuff like a DJ might have a record by the Neptunes or Pharrell or Sean Paul like six months before it was ever on MTV you know the way records so like that was kind of cool and so I had those people and then Jack White I just went to a concert at Radio City of the White Stripes and the Strokes and I was just like this is fucking incredible and I just wrote him a very nice letter and sent him the song on a reel -to -reel tape because I just figured if I send this guy a hard drive, he's going to literally burn it like he's Mr. Analog.

[345] Yeah.

[346] And he just liked it and sent it back.

[347] I have learned through my career that it's amazing what a nice letter can achieve.

[348] Like sometimes when you go through managers and all this shit and you're like, oh, they never wrote me back.

[349] Well, I wonder why.

[350] Like if you just give a human appeal to somebody.

[351] Anyway, so yeah, that's how I got.

[352] It was a mixture of having relationships.

[353] relationships with some of these people and then also just Hail Mary, you know, cold calling people.

[354] Yeah, I watched that doc.

[355] It may get loud.

[356] Yeah, it might get loud.

[357] Yeah.

[358] I had a, you know, I like the white stripes, but I was by no means a Jack White his story.

[359] And I, I didn't realize the depth of that person's genius until watching that.

[360] Yeah, he's a, he's a monster, definitely.

[361] Okay, so when you start working with Amy.

[362] I watched the Amy documentary, and it was so beautiful and heartbreaking.

[363] And I have a perspective on it, of course, as a recovering addict.

[364] And it's just, you know, I know that story very well.

[365] I've seen it unfold many times.

[366] And I did wonder, like, what was it like to have that relationship with her where, again, you had to turn in a product.

[367] You must have, I don't know, you must have been terrified for her.

[368] You must have loved her.

[369] You must have wanted to fix her.

[370] You must have Well, the crazy thing is that she was really together when we met.

[371] I didn't know any of the part before when she had been, you know, had our problems with alcohol and stuff.

[372] And so we just met and I remember her coming in the studio.

[373] And I even remember a couple of people being like, oh, you're going to work with Amy Winehouse.

[374] Like, good luck with that.

[375] I heard they've been working on that record for three years.

[376] She had had a first album that was kind of a hit in England and a lot of critical acclaim.

[377] And then that's when she, you know, started drinking heavily and stuff and kind of went away for a while and I think no one thought anything about her coming back or whatever it was.

[378] But, I mean, I thought her voice was cool and I certainly didn't have anyone else ringing my phone off the hook.

[379] So she came and she was very together at that moment.

[380] And that's why when she told me that story about her family coming over and like trying to get her to go to rehab and I said no, no, no. She said it like as we were walking around Soho.

[381] I was like, oh, you know what?

[382] I'm usually pretty anti, like, turning a conversational quirk into a song.

[383] I kind of hate that shit.

[384] But, like, just the way you said that is so hooky.

[385] You want to try and go back and write a song.

[386] And if she was still fucked up or, like, you know, in a bad way, I have a lot of friends and recovery family members.

[387] Like, I never would have been like, oh, yeah, that's so funny.

[388] I've been flipping.

[389] It was seen because it was such a chapter in her life that was closed before that unfortunately seemed really prophetic, like, in the years to come.

[390] But, yeah, when we made that record, she was just so razor sharp in her wit.

[391] And I didn't know any of the thing before.

[392] So I was like, here's this amazing person who's just, like, sorted their life out.

[393] Well, can I quickly absolve you of any thought?

[394] If you have any inclination that that song was somehow a bad idea, I just want to say, it is the job of art to tell the real story.

[395] It's not the job of art to tell the story of what everyone should be doing.

[396] That song resonated with all kinds of people that are in the middle of that journey.

[397] Yeah, I probably, like most of the time, I probably just heard a catchy fucking hook and was like, let's go.

[398] Like, I'm always like a music and beat person first and then like word second.

[399] That's why like I didn't get Bob Dylan to like my early 30s.

[400] But with Amy, I guess it's just hearing some of those songs more recently.

[401] Like, and you even see it.

[402] This is crazy.

[403] But I think you even see it in the streams.

[404] Like nobody really wants to listen.

[405] You know, you have recurrent radio and radio that plays old hits.

[406] And Amy's songs that get played are Valerie, tears dry, and back to black, because rehab is not really a fun song to listen to anymore, sort of knowing how it turned out.

[407] And weirdly, the song that we did together, Valerie, which is just a cover, and it's the most joyous song she's ever recorded because it's somebody else's words and her vocals so joyous.

[408] But it's such an easy one to listen to.

[409] That's why certainly in England, it's like the wedding DJ go -to because it's just like everybody gets up.

[410] You know, I guess that's partly because you get to divorce Amy from the tragedy of her story when you listen to that song of it.

[411] You get all of the talent and none of the sadness, I feel like, when you listen to Valerie.

[412] Never even thought about that before.

[413] Yeah, that's an incredible observation.

[414] And I was running it through different filters.

[415] Like, we've had this debate about, like, whether someone could watch the Cosby show.

[416] And I said, I pretty much can.

[417] Like, I can divorce the things in my head.

[418] but most certainly there was an episode about date rape you couldn't divorce yourself at that point from the show you'd be like oh my god this oh right yes right anyways that was a terrible analogy but I did think of it so I shared it with you if we're gonna go there my friend he's a person who doesn't necessarily want to divorce himself from the Arv of Woody Allen this is a very hot button thing at this moment and he said you know I went out dinner with somebody and they were a filmmaker and it was cool because she said she actually can still watch Woody Allen.

[419] Blue Jasmine's her favorite.

[420] She just didn't really dig Manhattan.

[421] I don't know what to think.

[422] I was like, you should fucking schedule date too because if somebody can still watch Woody Allen, yes, Manhattan is extremely hard to watch now knowing what we know.

[423] Like, that is the movie about the thing.

[424] Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

[425] Like, I guess every time someone brought up Woody Allen, I'm kind of like, well, I can't imagine flushing Annie Hall down the toilet.

[426] But then you go through the whole body work and you're like, Oh, there was a reoccurring theme here, man. Old -ass guys with very young girls.

[427] And, yeah, those ones, they're, you can't.

[428] That's been a tough one for the Jews, you know.

[429] Yeah, yeah.

[430] A lot of my African -American friends with, like, with Michael Jackson, you know, I could feel it.

[431] I was like a lot of, you're not taking him from us.

[432] And, like, that's how I feel like all my Jewish friends have been with Woody Allen.

[433] But that dog was hard to watch.

[434] Hollywood has a lot of Jewish people to point to.

[435] Yeah.

[436] Look at me. Exactly.

[437] You have an Academy Award.

[438] You're the new, you're the new video.

[439] No, don't say it.

[440] Don't say that.

[441] Do not say that.

[442] I don't even know what you're going to say, but I've already been canceled somewhere.

[443] Terrified.

[444] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[445] What's up, guys?

[446] This your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[447] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[448] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[449] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[450] And I don't mean just friends.

[451] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[452] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[453] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[454] We've all been there.

[455] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[456] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

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[459] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

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[461] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

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[463] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[464] Okay, as the relationship with, first of all, your guys' partnership yielded the most tremendous success, you and Amy.

[465] What were your kind of thoughts when that happened?

[466] Did you have fear of like, fuck, I don't know if I can replicate this or I don't know if, you know, maybe we had some secret magic sauce.

[467] Will I be able to do that with other people?

[468] after Amy there was two things like I realized that I was working with a singular talent and there was nothing that I was going to be able to do to recreate that with somebody else but at the same time here I am I've been chipping away for like 10 years at this point trying to make it in this thing and all of a sudden I do this thing that everybody likes this old sound and you know the Dap Kings and the horns and the soulful Motown feel so I guess I should just do that only from now on And then you realize that you can, like, you run that into the ground and it becomes uninspired.

[469] You got to wait around for Leon Bridges to arrive, if that's going to be your only methodology.

[470] But I do, and I look back at some of that stuff, I did start to phone it in a little, or I did start to, like, go into the studio, like, if I've been out late the night before a little hungover and, like, not have an arrangement for the song of my hand and just be like, ah, the Dap Kings will think of something cool to play, because they always do that.

[471] So, like, I really hit another low point in my career, for sure.

[472] I was writing the success in my album, my own album version, sold like a million copies in England.

[473] And so I was just like, oh, I guess people just like whenever I do what I do because there were no expectations on those records.

[474] You know, I wasn't even signed when I made version.

[475] So then I kind of fucked up and overreached.

[476] And then I was at my lowest point.

[477] And then a series of events and met Bruno Mars and Jeff Basker by working on Bruno's album and then we made Uptown Funk but I really did in the in the seven years between that like hit a lot of fucking humbling stumbling blocks you know at this vantage point are you grateful for those the plateaus the valleys oh yes of course I mean at that moment it feels like oh cruel musical world like why is thou forsaken me like you know you start to see you know I'm friends with a lot of other producers and they're you know know we all have a healthy level of competition but like you're all sitting around it like oh do you oh you got the adele call really oh no i didn't i didn't get it and then you're on top of the world and other people start to come up that were behind you and taking your spot and there's a certain amount of complacency i was kind of i don't know if i could say i never really had a problem but i didn't have a bottom out thing where i needed to maybe ever or maybe i did need to get clean i'm not sure but all i'm saying is like i was partying too much I was drinking, doing blow, all the kind of regular shit.

[478] Oh, so good, yeah.

[479] And it's delicious.

[480] I don't even, I don't like cocaine.

[481] I just like how it smells.

[482] Yeah, exactly.

[483] That said Jamie Fox.

[484] I stole that from Jamie Fox.

[485] Yeah, of course, all those things, because I had to come back and I knew when I was making that Uptown special record, the one with Uptown Funker, I was like, if this isn't the best thing I've ever made and I don't care about this more than anything, I know that this could be my last shot so I just need to put it all in there and you know obviously like having sparring partners like Bruno and Jeff on it I couldn't have done that without them but it was good and then I mean that's because I've only just come to a point in my life where I like feel actually settled through all the usual channels of intense therapy and introspection like I'm so grateful for like everything in life like I'm with this person now who's like the greatest partner I've ever How do I know I couldn't have been with if I hadn't have gone through all this shit to get here?

[486] So, like, now I literally look back and I'm like, thank you to that fucking relationship, that thing that I lost, whatever, in the divorce, whatever you want to talk about.

[487] Like, if all those things are what got me here, then I want to, like, run around and kiss them all twice on the cheek.

[488] So there you go.

[489] I'm just now launching a theory, and I'm going to apply it to Monica and myself as well.

[490] Because you lived in fantasy so much, and you had this totally.

[491] fairy tale version of what it would be to be someone who made the Amy Winehouse record.

[492] Did you feel like, I certainly felt this way like, okay, now I'm ready for the fantasy.

[493] And I'm just not there.

[494] So drinking helps me feel that way.

[495] Coke helps me. Like, you got to start kind of augmenting it to get it to where you thought it was going to be.

[496] And then in doing that, yeah, you become complacent and a little lazy and stuff.

[497] It's that.

[498] It's a lot of things.

[499] I mean, especially for musicians, and I guess this is probably more for you.

[500] with performing comedy live than maybe being in a film but we'd have the best shows like when I was and I guess like because it's kind of true like I'm really only famous like truly famous like in one country England so sometimes when I'm talking to like people here like on a podcast and I tell them like we sold out two nights at the Hammers Smithode and people are like what did you do what do you do now but no we would have these crazy shows we'd play Glastonbury 60 ,000 people come watch And I would come off stage and be like, that was terrible.

[501] And it happened so much and it was so not congruous with reality and what I could see looking into the crowd or what people would tell me coming off the stage.

[502] I came up with my own sort of armchair theory that I think the adrenaline and all the anticipation, all that excitement and nerves before you go on stage, when you come off, that is completely depleted.

[503] And there's absolutely nothing there.

[504] So even as a brain chemistry physiology thing, because that would literally be a crash or a mini -depression, it would be quite easy to think that that means, oh, that show was terrible when really there are two totally different things.

[505] And then you can't get the feeling about the show being good until you've quickly had two beers and you're like, you're on your third line in the toilet and the dressing room.

[506] And suddenly you're like, oh, and then that's kind of brought you back up.

[507] Yes.

[508] uh that's at least that's what it kind of was for me i think oh and then you have to learn how to do it so it's so common i remember coming off tour and i was doing a record with somebody and we just played the night before to like 8 ,000 people and he's just in the booth and i'm like this isn't fun you singing without people yelling like what is this why are we doing like this is fucking boring i didn't know this again until reading about you today but you dated rishita for a while who's a good friend of ours.

[509] Yeah, and she's still a really good friend, and she actually, like, hooked me out with my current therapist.

[510] I hope she doesn't mind me, like, blowing up the spot like that, but who's actually been a good life guru for that.

[511] I hate when people get on a proselytize, and they're like, and then I found, and then when people talk about this therapist, I mean, they're all there as a sort of similar thing, aren't they, to, like, be a mirror, and the good ones will also give you some good guru life pointing, but I guess I'm just afraid to just say, say like, yes, I had a therapist that Rashid introducing to who's really great and has been a big part of me sorting out my life.

[512] Yeah.

[513] Let's break that down.

[514] Is the fear that people will think you're cliche?

[515] I think it's a bit of cliche.

[516] I think I've been on the other end of like snickering at hearing somebody else say that in an interview.

[517] I think that was maybe 10 years ago before people like you and Russell go on and talk about that shit for a long time and intelligent people that you respect would talk like that and maybe just a slightly more emotionally -intuned thing that we're living in but yeah i think that's the cliche because i hear when i say something almost simultaneous to me saying it i hear my 19 year old friends responding to it like that's my hurdle right if i say something i just hear them going like oh this motherfucker needs so much attention and sympathy or this guy needs yeah yeah i don't know what it is but then again like then i seen friends going through the same shit and like tearing themselves up and then i can occasionally go like, hey, I did this thing that was pretty good or I went to this place and you can pass that on and like sort of help someone make their own shit better.

[518] So why not talk about it, I guess, in a way.

[519] Yeah.

[520] So anyways, when I was thinking about Rashida in dating her, I had the experience of going to her birthday party at her dad's house, Quincy Jones's house, which was so fun.

[521] A, it was just the most fun.

[522] Probably if you dated her, you probably attended one of these.

[523] It was a serial birthday party, pajama dance party.

[524] It was a pajama jam.

[525] It was a Pajama can.

[526] Yes.

[527] One of the funest parties I've ever been doing my life.

[528] But I wandered into the room with all the gold records.

[529] And I got to say, I was just like, oh my God.

[530] Like I got goosebumps in there.

[531] You're just not going to walk into a room like that.

[532] No. Anywhere.

[533] I mean, we were really close and we dated for three and a half years.

[534] We're actually engaged for a short time.

[535] And then she's still one of my favorite people in the world and her partner, Ezra.

[536] I have such a clear memory of going into that room at Quincy's place for the first time of like 23 years old.

[537] And there is basically a giant trophy cabinet on the wall that's just like 37 Grammys, you know?

[538] And there was like part of the thing that you just know that you'll never get that so you don't have to feel competitive with it.

[539] But it's also like when you start to get like, you know, I have seven Grammys.

[540] Maybe I'm like my fifth one.

[541] You know, I think I have this teenage fantasy of Quincy's cabinet that at some point I've always dreamed.

[542] And now I realize, like, I would never do it and I don't have enough.

[543] And, like, any partner that I would be with would just be like, are you fucking crazy?

[544] You want to, like, take up wall space.

[545] It could be, like, good art to, like, be a testament to some fucking shitty records you produce.

[546] That's just left such an impression, the Quincy Jones trophy cabinet.

[547] And it's such an L .A. kind of Bel Air artifact, too.

[548] It's amazing.

[549] Well, yeah, music wasn't even my profession in any way, but my dad loved Quincy Jones.

[550] I loved Quincy Jones.

[551] I recognize all the Michael Jackson stuff that Quincy did all my favorite stuff of Michael Jackson.

[552] As someone that's not even into, that wasn't my career path.

[553] I was just looking at, because there's also numbers of like units sold, which by the way, whenever those were printed, they're not, they're more than whatever it says.

[554] And I'm like looking around like a calculator going like 50 million, 78 million, 112 million.

[555] and three.

[556] And I'm like, the magnitude of success here is really almost incomprehensible.

[557] It's incredible.

[558] I mean, he produced Thriller, the greatest selling record of all time.

[559] And then just throwing off the wall bad and all the scores and the stuff that he did.

[560] And he's a genius.

[561] He was, did you see the documentary that Rashida made?

[562] Did you guys see the Netflix doc?

[563] Like, I mean, his story is like part, Forrest Gump part, like Superman part, like civil rights hero.

[564] So it's crazy.

[565] I mean, nobody, his live intersects.

[566] It's so many amazing, like, things.

[567] And then he's made incredible music that we all love.

[568] Yeah.

[569] When I read that, I was like, oh, my God, you must have been so excited.

[570] Because I was like, I couldn't, yeah, I had chills in that room.

[571] You have two sisters, right?

[572] And no brothers?

[573] No, I actually have 10.

[574] There's 10 of us all together.

[575] So my mom and dad.

[576] So, well, no, I have two full sisters.

[577] You're right.

[578] Charlotte and Samantha from my mom and dad.

[579] And then my parents remarried and, you know, had a lot more kids.

[580] And then I have two stepbrothers.

[581] So there's 10 of us all together.

[582] And like, we don't call anybody half or step.

[583] We sort of all grew up together.

[584] And, you know, like what happens when you grow up in sometimes like turbulent, fraught homes, siblings band together because you're like become your own kind of like security blanket.

[585] So like, we're all fiercely.

[586] And I love my parents very much.

[587] I'm very close with my mom, dad, step dad, step mom.

[588] But especially the siblings, like we just have each other's back, like, kind of nothing.

[589] You know, this sometimes boggles Monica because I have this irrational level of protection over my sister.

[590] In fact, when people will say like, oh, you have different dad, you're half siblings, I have an urge to hit them.

[591] Like, it's that strong.

[592] I'm like, no, no, this is my.

[593] I've never said that, by the way.

[594] No, no, Monica's never said that.

[595] But I'm like, this is my sister.

[596] I would die and kill for her.

[597] She's not a, she's not 0 .5 % my sister.

[598] Yeah.

[599] Like I have a stepbrother, my stepdad's oldest son, and then my half brother from my dad's remarriage to his second wife who are friends.

[600] Like they have literally, there's not even a word or a term that can link them.

[601] They're not related.

[602] There's no law.

[603] There's no in by marriage.

[604] And they like hang out and raise house.

[605] So yeah.

[606] I just think there's something very specific to boys who grow up around girls.

[607] we have like this pod group and there's one boy and all these girls and I'm just seeing him develop and I'm like oh he has the sensitivity that I who knows you know I'm sure there's biology there's all these things but I think a lot of it has to do with this culture we've provided him forced him into all these girls and that he has to adjust to their temperaments but I always think those people are way better off for it.

[608] Yeah, I definitely got into this question because the last record I did was all female vocalists and because most of my like more well -known work with Amy or Gaga is like, you know, very strong, powerful female artist, performers.

[609] Like I did get this question a lot where I had to start thinking about it.

[610] Like, why do you think you do your best work with females or is it something to do?

[611] And I did grow up in a house, you know, my stepdad was a musician, very loving, but on tour and out of the house a lot, late nights in the studio.

[612] So it really was my mom, my two sisters.

[613] And I do think that I'm sure there's something about that dynamic that made me feel comfortable around extremely powerful dynamic women, maybe, in a way that, like, I'm always so surprised when I, like, speak to, like, a female artist.

[614] And this is going to sound so douchy, but they'd be like, you don't understand.

[615] Like, most producers are not like you, like, you come into the room.

[616] And it's basically, like, all your ideas are, like, bullshit, and you're there to be made to feel like a six -year -old child.

[617] And I'm just like that boggles my mind, not because I'm so fucking great or enlightened, but like, if you have a powerhouse mega talent, why do you not keep asking them?

[618] What do you think we should do now?

[619] What is not the advantage of accessing that thing?

[620] And I guess, you know, that's just not the case all the time.

[621] Well, ego.

[622] Well, ego and then let's be somewhat sympathetic.

[623] They probably grew up in a household where dad shot down every idea mom had.

[624] And it was dad's idea to keep silly mom on track and don't go spend.

[625] this money like if that's what was modeled for you yeah that's true and we hear about it more often now like it is an archetype in the industry but you're right i do think it's like it's your modeling yeah i don't i don't think i like yeah i don't deserve a pat on the back i just grew up you know that's what i think i'm always like if i'm having a conversation with lady gaga or something about that i'm like i'm literally doing ground zero bottom floor of like what you should be doing it's a producer like that's why i'm amazed that like that i'm getting any kind of like hey that's great you do i'm like that's like literally like just to walk in the door what we're supposed to be doing yeah i'm just not doing something i'm not being an arrogant asshole yes yeah maybe that's like most of what's got me where i am is what i haven't done as opposed to and i had a really like interesting conversation with rhesita about this one time she's she's like i think there's this point where you're like you're coming up and you do you want to be denaro You want to be Stevie Wonder.

[626] You want to be the best that ever did it.

[627] And then you sort of get past that and you realize that the reason that you are where you are and that you do good work and people want to work with you is because you're kind of not those things and you're just, you do the work, you're talented, you get it done and bring something to it, but also you're just not an asshole and you're like easy to be around.

[628] And those things that you're like don't really want to get credit for saying that that's why you are, why you are because it's not like the things that are exciting to talk about.

[629] but at some point I realize that is why there's so many producers that have come along at one point and had like more fire, more momentum than I did or like did some incredible shit or had like a row of like eight hits in a row for like 18 months and ruled the radio and then they just kind of go away and then I'm just still here and I think that like reasonableness or whatever that word is is like part of the reason I'm just hanging in the game well I look that's the same for actors in show business which is like everyone's going to have a certain amount of ups to bat and if you're a dickhead the whole time that time where they're going to give you a second chance will not exist for those people okay i want to talk really quick as we said i'm friends with bradley he says i'm going to do stars born i'm like this is what this is insane talk about aiming for the fences like you don't sing you know uh this is it'll be the third or fourth time this movie's been made this is so ambitious and then the very first thing i heard him saying was tell me something good you know like I'm like what what like if he flew a helicopter by my house it would have been less shocking and he was just fucking awesome but there is something about the song that is I don't want to diminish anything from him because he's so spectacular on every level directing it acting in it singing it's a good setup to do that I don't know how else to say it of course I mean listen I didn't even know that song was going to be a juet until he show me early on the first cut of the film and when they're sitting in the parking lot and then it goes to the thing i thought it was just going to be a gaga tune like that's all we knew when we were writing it also i would been brought in to work on joanne the album and like she was starting to talk to bradley about making she's like i might do this film stars born is it cool if he comes by the studio tomorrow i'm a fucking movie like obsessive like that is my second great joy like and i love all kinds of movies so i love like limitless and wet hot american summer and i like midnight meat train i had to dig deep silver lining's playbook like he has a magic thing and he has a a lack of vanity that also makes guys just like him and is so relatable which is very hard for like a very handsome film yeah so he walks in and he's just like all like golden like blowing in the room and i'm like that's cool and he's he sits down and we play him a couple songs that and I'm kind of like, not Starstruck, but like there's a thing when I'm around people that make something that I really love and they have a little bit of a magic power.

[630] Well, really quick, can I just say that is your livelihood?

[631] You actually are attuned at recognizing when someone has some X factor.

[632] Right.

[633] Yes, that's well put.

[634] I'm going to start saying that for now.

[635] So he's just sitting there and we play in some stuff that we've been working on for that, right?

[636] And he was like really into it, the song Joanne.

[637] And he was like, can I have that for the movie?

[638] And I was like, who knows is this movie's ever going to get made?

[639] I've been brought in to finish this Joanne record.

[640] I have like the heads of Interscope records.

[641] Like they've given me the fucking keys to the golden artists or rather she has.

[642] But like those are the deadlines I'm thinking about.

[643] Not like, oh, she wants to make this movie with Raleigh Cooper that might never get made.

[644] But I loved her.

[645] I could tell she really wanted to do it.

[646] It was important.

[647] And he had a very good vibe.

[648] And I was like, all right, well, fuck it.

[649] You want to take a week out to write some songs for.

[650] star is born like let's do it why not so she came in and we are just fucking around with ideas like most songs start like spaghetti at the wall and then my friend andrew who was there played the first guitar chords i was sitting on the like electric piano and she said like that tell me something girl and when we record with her she likes to put headphones on it's not like everyone sitting around the piano jamming she puts a headphones on and everyone has headphones and she has a mic in front because it makes sense she can sing this soft and you would hear it just as well and she knows that all the things she can do with her voice elicit so much emotion she can turn on a dime to make it powerful or quiet and broken and when she sung that tell me something boy or tell me something girl I don't even know which verse came first I was like oh like all the hairs stood up on my body and it was like getting a fucking musical hug I just that broke me right from there so that's how the song was written but there was a verse tell me something girl and then of course because i'm a producer i'm like well the second verse should be tell me something boy because like why wouldn't we do that but it was bradley who heard it and turned it into a fucking duet so when i saw that shit for the first time he showed me like a rough cut of the like an assembly the first hour of the movie and they start to speak the lines first in the parking lot first of all the movie was just incredible up to that point and i'm like oh my god he's taking our words and it's and it's dialogue and it's so moving and I love this song 30 times more than even when we wrote it just how it's being presented in this film and then when they sang that shit together was like oh my god I was like this is a song that I didn't even know was going to make the movie because she wrote 30 songs we wrote our song really early on and then she went off and worked with all these great country writers and then fucking here I'm watching this film and I literally like couldn't wait to like leave his house that night to call my friends Andrew and Anthony, who co -wrote the song with us, and be like, guys, you couldn't fucking buy the house.

[651] No, not literally.

[652] I was like, you guys are not going to believe what he's done to our song.

[653] You're going to be so moved.

[654] This is beautiful.

[655] And I watched a couple movies recently about bands and being in a band.

[656] I don't have to name any names, but, you know, some of these award season songs.

[657] And I just made me appreciate how well he made playing in a band.

[658] so visceral live.

[659] It's the hardest thing to get right.

[660] It's the easiest thing to watch as a musician go, that's so corny.

[661] That would never happen.

[662] And even if you don't know how it happens, you can feel it.

[663] Those scenes on stage and stars born, like, he just got that shit so fucking right.

[664] That's one of the best things about that film to me. Yeah, my complaint about a lot of those music movies is that they're videos.

[665] They look like music videos.

[666] They don't at all.

[667] There's nothing to your point, visceral about it.

[668] And there you're like, oh, that's what it feels like to walk out on stage at Coachella.

[669] I don't have to do that now.

[670] I just experienced it.

[671] fucking blowing up somebody's spot here, but I don't even know if I heard from him, but I was like, I think Bono or somebody was like, don't even try, like, it's the most impossible thing to get right.

[672] Like, you'll never get it.

[673] Like, everyone tries to make these moves about what it's like the musical experience.

[674] And like, he just proved everybody that he could.

[675] And there's a couple bits of magic in it, if I can theorize.

[676] One is, yeah, that first line is like, I would compare it to the guitar lick in, can you hear me knocking?

[677] Like, it just starts.

[678] And you're like, oh, I love this song in the first five seconds.

[679] It's impossible.

[680] That's Lucas Nelson has to get the credit for that because we had the chords, just A minor F sharp G. And he came up with this very iconic figure that went from instead of going.

[681] Oh, we're getting lucky.

[682] We're getting so lucky.

[683] We tricked him into doing this.

[684] So we had this.

[685] So he went.

[686] And that's just like, what the fuck?

[687] Like he made the shit from like, a really nice thing into like those classic hotel california stairway like those classic figures as soon as you hear it you just know it so lucas nelson's guitar arrangement of that is really deserves a lot of credit i just got a goosey me too yeah that was so exciting i got some goosies and then the third thing i'll just say is like talk about the pressure that movie lives and dies on that song i mean truly it's a great movie but you also need the hit song that justifies why they go on this ride if they had given us a C plus song and said that launched the rest of the movie into high gear, you'd be like, eh, I don't know if it did.

[688] I'm going to, like, say something controversial and I would let anybody who co -wrote it tell me I'm a fucking idiot, but I think it's a B -plus song that the movie turns into an A like because of the emotional this little experience.

[689] Or maybe not B -plus.

[690] I don't want to put a number on it.

[691] And God, if she heard this shit, just be like, fuck you.

[692] But I also noticed that a lot of the songs that have won best picture at the Oscar, you watch them write it in the film.

[693] So hard out here for a pimp from Hustle and Flow, the song in Wants.

[694] A lot of those songs, when you're watching two people on the screen or four people that you really love crafting something, you're already invested in the song because you feel like you were there at its moment of creation if it's a good song.

[695] So, like, that's always great in a movie when the song is actually being written in the movie by the people in it.

[696] It's pretty cool.

[697] Yeah, that's a good point.

[698] When I saw the trailer, actually, even as gassed as I was watching the first hour of the film and seeing how he'd used it and that was the first time I knew it was a duet, when I saw that trailer, I mean, it's one of the greatest trailers of all time.

[699] And the way they use shallow and her big note, that's when I was like, wow, like they've made us like the cart or the horse or whatever the fucking expression is that's pulling, yeah, like this song, they've put all the, apples in our basket and I know that that film is why people love that song as much and probably vice versa well and let's just give all due proppers that look back when Bradley's about to get on the tour bus oh my god I had pussy quivers galore I was like I don't care who he's smiling at they're fucked yeah it's over there's so many so many memes from the look her look back and the note it was like there were like 400 memes like I think I saw the means before i even knew they had released the trailer and i was like oh man this is good that's his um you want to talk about his x factor just to blow more smoke up his ass but that's also hangover like it came out it was a hit and i asked all these women what brought you to that movie it's such a boy's movie and unanimously they're all like bradley coming down the escalator in that suit oh my god right i'm like damn that's power yeah stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare Okay, so it makes total sense that you would have a podcast about music because you're really like an encyclopedia of obsession on music.

[700] So I have two things, this podcast, and then I'm not trying to make like a half -ass segue into promoting something else, but I have this Apple show coming.

[701] It's a documentary series about making music.

[702] And it's coming at the end of July, and it was really fucking exciting to make.

[703] basically I did a TED talk on sampling that, you know, resonated in certain fields.

[704] It's sort of slightly nerdy, academic, but explained sampling in a way that made people who I guess didn't really know.

[705] I think that they gave a shit about hip -hop.

[706] Oh, cool.

[707] This is a contribution to culture.

[708] And like a lot of TED talks, you try and give it some kind of like relatable daily life shit about human fucking emotion.

[709] So the guy, Kim Rosenfeld, who was running up Apple, their non -fiction thing, said, I'd love to make a TV show with you.

[710] about music and he put me with Morgan Neville, this incredible director who made, Won't You Be My Neighbor and 20 feet from Stardom and all this stuff.

[711] And we just, we dreamed up this show.

[712] How do we make this thing about lifting the veil off how music is made and how music works in six episodes.

[713] And we came up with, let's make each one about a different technology or device that's changed the game for modern pop music as we know it.

[714] So we did auto tune, reverb, distortion, synthesizer, samplers, and drum machines.

[715] And so that's been the past year and a half, like going around talking to some of my favorite fucking people from Paul McCartney to Tame Impala to Too Short to the Beasties to Wale to DJ premiere about how they do the shit and sitting in the studio and understanding when they first used that shit, why it suddenly gave them a superpower.

[716] They didn't think that they had.

[717] And so I realized that the podcast is a little bit of an offshoot of it in a way.

[718] So the podcast is the Fader magazine, like one of the great music magazine.

[719] Hold on.

[720] Can I pause you?

[721] Because I want to know the name of that documentary, because we're going to be all up in that.

[722] Monica and I live for documentaries.

[723] Yes.

[724] Okay.

[725] It's called Watch the Sound and it comes out all six episodes on July 30th on Apple.

[726] July 30th.

[727] I'm excited.

[728] I sincerely can't wait to see that.

[729] Yeah.

[730] And so the fader is this amazing music magazine that's like so cool because it's always like M .I .A. or Travis Scott or it always gets these people right on the cusp of when they're about to blow up.

[731] in a very, they always have a really good, like, batting average of, like, who really becomes important, you know, early Drake, whatever.

[732] So they said we want to do this interview show where we talk to everybody who's been on the cover of the fader at one point or another.

[733] And using that article as a parameter, so you're not just talking about everything they've ever done, but like where they were at that moment in the career, usually it was just before they blew up.

[734] And then kind of, you know, using that as a jump -off point.

[735] So I know some of the people more than others, Tame Impala and Erica Badu or maybe people that I've worked with and then there's people like David Byrne and Damon Alburn who I just am a fan of and I'm up all night doing research and like you on Wikipedia and just like not wanting to come unprepared.

[736] And so it's really fun.

[737] I listened to the David Byrne one and it was it's awesome.

[738] Thanks.

[739] What I really like about it is you have such respect you've gotten your own accolades that it is really like a peer to peer conference like i don't know i i was excited for you how seriously david was treating you as a fellow person in music yeah i was too and i don't expect that going into it i do come in like i spoke to this amazing young rapper riko nasty and like her world is so different and she had like no idea i really made music like i was saying occasional like stories because they were relating to what she was saying but i i wonder if she was like why is this journalist keep like talking about his band or some shit like because I've been on the other end of that and it's like okay I get it like I know we all make music but then at the very end Rico Nasty's like you know what like you're a really good interview I was because I think I said this is only my third one and I was a little like nervous but thank you and she's like yeah like I didn't need to like go out and smoke weed or anything like I was totally engaged and and she's like and you said you make music too right I should check it out something like what have you done and I love this well I guess the thing that I most known for is Amy Winehouse and she just kind of freezes up but what was even more sweet was it wasn't like oh my God that's like da -da -da she was like wow that's crazy she's like my mom used to play that all the time in the house when I was five because that came out when she was five the reaction wasn't like oh my god you're Amy Winehouse that's my shit it was like wow you made rumors basically yeah yeah exactly does it hurt your ego a little bit if, like, she doesn't, you don't care.

[740] I love it.

[741] I think it would have hurt my ego at, like, some point, but I think I just realized, like, it doesn't matter if she knows my stuff or not.

[742] Like, it's just totally a world in a lane that exists where she would have come up and never come across my thing.

[743] And also, like, I'm a producer.

[744] There might be some songs she knows, but, like, she doesn't have to know my name, but, and I kind of love it.

[745] I think we can relate to you so much because, like, you have enough success that, of course, you should be interviewing those people And yet you're behind the scenes enough That certainly someone could not know that And then I've just had a very middling acting career So we we interview people One of my, these are my favorite Like Pete Carroll, coach of the Seahawks Climbing the steps to the attic Having no fucking, he looked at me dead in the face And I could be an Uber driver.

[746] He doesn't know, he doesn't know why he's here I don't imagine he's excited to be here And then mid -interview something magic happens And it clicks.

[747] It's so rewarding.

[748] It's so strange.

[749] I love that.

[750] I prefer it.

[751] It's, A, it's sort of like cute, B, it's like, you know, we're all comfortable enough with our success and, like, where it is now at this point that it's like, cool.

[752] Maybe it's a good meter for how confident you are or something.

[753] Because even now, people will text me and they'll be like, I saw you.

[754] Oh my gosh, congrats on the progressive commercial.

[755] And I'm like, the progressive commercial is what you're noting, like, which is obviously my own issue.

[756] But it's just so, I'm like, wait, no, let me tell you about what I'm really doing.

[757] It's just so...

[758] When the side hustle becomes the main hustle.

[759] I remember when I was like starting off and DJing and like the first record I came out wasn't like a huge success Nika Costa so I was kind of like back just being known as a club DJ and I was DJing a Grammy party for Kanye West it was like after his second album what was that like late registration and he has this big party and he's he's like basically standing on the booth while I'm DJing and he's like go anytime you see me or Mark Ronson on the wheels at one of my parties like you know we're having the best time because this is my favorite DJ right there and like a tiny bit of me just went like boob because like I wanted to be known as like a producer that's what I all I wanted to be known at and like here's this guy who's one of the great producer this time who still only thinks of me as a DJ and even though he's giving me the biggest compliment he could possibly say at that moment in a front of a room of 2 ,000 people like this is the guy I have to play the music when I'm celebrating and like all I heard was just to like I'm not ever used to it, you know?

[760] So, like, I can find the brown lining in any compliment, I like to say.

[761] Yeah, yeah.

[762] Brown lining's playbook.

[763] That's my autobiography.

[764] I've seen Erica Badu live probably five or six times.

[765] I love her.

[766] What is she?

[767] Is she an alien?

[768] Is she from another planet?

[769] How did we get her?

[770] What's going on?

[771] You know, if you actually Wikipedia, Erica Badu, which I did.

[772] Because we've worked together.

[773] We made some songs together.

[774] She does feel like she's floating in a slightly different, like, atmosphere than all of us.

[775] That actually, she is the first to use the expression, woke in popular culture.

[776] Really?

[777] It's crazy.

[778] So woke was always something that you would hear a lot of, like, the nation of Islam and the Muslim was, like, in the literature.

[779] And I guess the ones, like, of town here in New York, it would say, like, you know, stay woke.

[780] Like don't, you know, don't get calling the system.

[781] It basically means like, I'm calling the system, always stay alert, people are out for your shit, and also never feel afraid to challenge the status quo.

[782] It's kind of all those things wrapped in it.

[783] You can imagine what it means.

[784] It's not that hard.

[785] Stay woke.

[786] So she was the first person actually to put it in a song.

[787] And I think that's like 15 years ago.

[788] What song?

[789] Wow.

[790] Cancel everybody.

[791] No, I don't know.

[792] Even though I'm sure the phrase, takes, you know, the way it's currently uses in a way that may be higher ideology at that point was it's just, yeah, she just seems otherworldly and like intelligently and spiritually connected on a slightly different plane.

[793] And I was really nervous interviewing her for some of those reasons because I was like, I don't want to trouble her with these mere mortal questions a little bit, you know?

[794] It can be harder with friends in my experience because you know stuff about them that you know is super interesting, but you can't tell if that's something they wanted to just tell you or the world.

[795] Like, it's a dicey dance with their friends.

[796] That's definitely that.

[797] I have interviewed people that like to keep shit close to the chest and I'm like kind of like dancing around it.

[798] And I've just only fucking done other than the Apple show, which was different because there's a film set and we're cutting it off and, you know, we're in the studio and we're playing with toys and gadgets.

[799] These interviews, you know, and I've done nine as opposed to how many of you guys done like 400 now?

[800] It's fucking hard.

[801] And I'm still learning how to do it.

[802] And sometimes you can't see somebody's eyes through this.

[803] Zoom or like it's a little far off or like it's fucking echoing you're like miss words when you're being interviewed you're allowed to say could you repeat the question but like you can't say can you repeat the answer when you're the interviewer like so I really just I've underprepared when I think that I know them and it's going to be a little easier because I have more of a working relationship and that's backfired a little bit too sometimes so yeah now I just like I just go fucking DJnetworth .com and I just get all.

[804] all the details.

[805] I get all the deeds.

[806] Boy, where so many similarities we're discovering, 1975, just to get things rolling and then interviewing people and friends.

[807] I have a single last question, but I do want to remind people to listen to the Fader Uncovered your podcast and then watch the sound July 30th on Apple Plus.

[808] Are you hip to Mark Ribbley?

[809] Oh, wait, that is really familiar.

[810] Okay, I asked because Badoo obviously got hip to him and she did something with him, blew my mind and made me happy for him.

[811] He's a dude I found on Instagram.

[812] He does samples and repeats and he sings.

[813] He has this beautiful voice, and he plays piano beautifully, and almost every song devolves into a butthole.

[814] Something about a butthole.

[815] Oh, okay.

[816] He's incredible.

[817] He's incredible.

[818] I really want you to explore it.

[819] Does every song really devolve into a butthole?

[820] Nearly everyone, but in the most beautiful way that you're like, this song is heartbreakingly gorgeous.

[821] and he's talking about buttholes.

[822] And his shows are improvised.

[823] Like he'll have people shout things out and then he'll make songs out of that.

[824] No, that's very brilliant.

[825] It's kind of like what John Bryan used to do at Tonnically Largo without the butthole.

[826] Yes, yes, yes.

[827] Oh, so that's so great you've seen that as well?

[828] Yeah, he was a real hero of mine, like for sure, I went to that a couple times.

[829] Yeah, so for people who, if they never in life, they get a chance.

[830] So John Brian, who's scored most of the Paul Thomas Anderson movies.

[831] Most of the movies you like you realize it's because he scored them internal sunshine he's just the most beautiful composer and he produced the second fiona apple record which is one of my favorite ever he co -produced all of conier's second record yeah really really yeah so at the beginning of this show he will compose an original score in front of you using this what do you call it when you take a section of it and then it repeats a loop he just has these loop pedals where he can loop himself on the flies so he can build the song before our eyes on stage and it's incredible.

[832] They're like huge film scores by the time and then there's a little intermission and then when you come back he'll ask for suggestions any song, Charlie Brown Peanuts theme song, great, any other song, Uptown Funk okay and this motherfucker will sit down and play both of those songs at the same time in one song.

[833] Even as I'm saying this I feel like that can't be true that I saw that but he does that Yeah he has like a different musical brain like two brains well mark awesome meeting you this was really fun conversation i wish you tons of luck on the fader uncovered podcast and watch the sound i can't wait to bump into you in real life yeah that'd be fun maybe we'll have a shared 50th birthday party it'll be uh four years from now but are we going to have it like in the middle of our birthdays which would be like four and a half months like sometime in the middle of april or something uh late spring birthday would be ideal okay climate wise and greenery Yeah.

[834] Okay, sweet.

[835] Okay.

[836] I'll see you there.

[837] Okay.

[838] Bye.

[839] All right.

[840] Be good.

[841] Thanks so much.

[842] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[843] So I've sat in something wet.

[844] Oh, that is the worst.

[845] It is a horrible feeling when your pants are wet.

[846] It's like you piddled your trousers.

[847] It's like that.

[848] It's like.

[849] And then I think about babies.

[850] This is how they are.

[851] No wonder they cry all the time.

[852] They live in piddle.

[853] Yeah.

[854] They're always, always, always piddling themselves.

[855] Speaking of babies and diapers, our friend Molly and Eric, their dog has a diaper on.

[856] Yeah, because.

[857] She's become a woman.

[858] Yeah.

[859] She's having her first period.

[860] But she's just a baby.

[861] I don't understand.

[862] She is a baby.

[863] She's a seven -month -old puppy.

[864] She's clearly a puppy.

[865] And somehow, Mother Nature said she's ready to have a kid.

[866] I know.

[867] Could she get pregnant this week?

[868] Yeah.

[869] No, she could.

[870] She's a puppy.

[871] How is a puppy?

[872] going to have puppies?

[873] Well, she'd be like 14 months older than her fucking children.

[874] The thing is, you got to look at their life, right?

[875] Like, they don't live as long as us, so they kind of have to start procreating earlier.

[876] Well, let's do the mass. So the thing's going to live 12 years, right?

[877] Well, if you're, I mean, I guess, I guess I don't know.

[878] That seems, oh, let's look up average lifespan of a dog.

[879] I think we could safely say the thing that'll live 12 years, barring some road accident or something, you know.

[880] Ten to 13 years is the average lifespan of a dog.

[881] Okay, so what I'm going to do, Monica, is I'm going to type in 12, and then I'm going to divide it by point, let's see, if it's seven months, well, first I got to fucking divide, aye, aye, aye, I got to divide seven by 12 to figure out what percentage of a year that is.

[882] Divide seven by 12 equals, all right, so 0 .58, 0 .58.

[883] So I'm going to now go 12 years divided by 0 .58, and I'm going to say, it's a lot of math I'm confused by the answer I got I got 20 I don't know what what was I trying to do you were trying to find out in human life what time will you have to start procreating to match the dog's life I think that's what you were trying to do so I guess it's 20 percent of its life is what it's telling me okay okay so if you live a hundred 20 percent of your life is 20 years old you can have a baby Yeah, and that's about...

[884] I guess it all works out, but it doesn't feel right.

[885] And, you know...

[886] Tell me something.

[887] In a long time...

[888] Let me tell you something.

[889] Okay.

[890] A long time ago, women had babies at like 15.

[891] That's right.

[892] That's when a woman should have a child.

[893] 15.

[894] I mean, I got my period when I was 12.

[895] It says most girls get their first period when they're between 10 and 15.

[896] That's a big...

[897] Big window.

[898] Average age is 12.

[899] All right.

[900] Good for you.

[901] You were right on the average, right in the bell curve.

[902] I really was.

[903] I want to correct.

[904] something.

[905] It was corrected within the episode, but it got cut out.

[906] I am so embarrassed by this.

[907] When we interviewed Leon Bridges, I said what I associate with Dallas Fort Worth, music is the ghetto boys.

[908] And he later corrected me and it was humiliating.

[909] They're from Houston.

[910] They're from, they're not from Dallas.

[911] So if you heard that and you heard me talking about the ghetto boys being from Dallas, they're from Houston.

[912] I got confused with the wards.

[913] I thought they had wards down there in Fort Worth, but they don't.

[914] They're from the fifth ward of Houston, but I had it wrong and just, I'm sure there's a lot of ghetto boyfriends that were like, what, this guy is a fucking, I don't remember him correcting you.

[915] I don't remember cutting that out.

[916] Yeah.

[917] Because normally then I would have just cut out you saying it all together.

[918] The first part, but it kind of set up the Dallas sound.

[919] Like you couldn't have gotten it out because I just, I would have just said, Dallas sound, but I said that, you know, or maybe that would work.

[920] I don't know.

[921] People probably don't pay too much attention to what I'm saying.

[922] They're just trying to listen to what the guests have.

[923] I was to say anyways, maybe.

[924] You know, Leon DM'd me. No, he didn't.

[925] Yeah, and he just said that was such a fun hang.

[926] Much love to all of you or much love or something.

[927] Wait, he didn't DM me. Let me see if he did.

[928] Well, I think now that he might like you.

[929] Of course you think that.

[930] I do.

[931] Everyone likes you.

[932] Oh, my God.

[933] Yeah, no fucking DM from him.

[934] Okay, well, maybe he thought I was very approachable and I am.

[935] Well, I think he might.

[936] What did you respond with?

[937] Can I know?

[938] He said that was a. dope hang, much love.

[939] I put so much fun.

[940] Please let us know next time you're back in town, more hanging to be had.

[941] Heart, heart, heart.

[942] That's pretty inviting.

[943] Good.

[944] And so he hasn't responded.

[945] I want him to hang out with us.

[946] I know.

[947] What if he's trying to date you?

[948] I know you want everyone in the whole world to want to date me, but they don't.

[949] And I think most everyone wants.

[950] Rob, you're another member of this group.

[951] Do you think everyone wants to date Monica?

[952] It's a good amount of people that are single.

[953] Certainly a lot higher than 38 % that would date me on our thing that we have hanging on the wall.

[954] 72 % of people would not date me. And I'm saying that the amount of single men who would not date you is around 9%.

[955] That was, I really liked Rob's answer.

[956] Okay.

[957] Because it was a very professional.

[958] Oh, okay.

[959] And I'm, what's that word I'm looking for?

[960] Measured?

[961] Uh, it's, it's sort of like measured.

[962] Yeah, it was, it was appropriate.

[963] Oh, okay.

[964] Good job.

[965] up.

[966] What percentage of single men do you think don't want to date her?

[967] What percentage?

[968] Oh, no. I mean, I'm sure that's low.

[969] Very low.

[970] 9, 10%.

[971] You're putting him in a horrible Yeah, that's kind of why I'm here.

[972] Do you think I'm here to like not create conflict?

[973] To make everyone comfortable?

[974] Story is conflict.

[975] We're telling stories.

[976] Okay.

[977] Anyways, I put it at 9%.

[978] Are we including like children that are single?

[979] No, no. Eligible people.

[980] Yeah.

[981] Because here's the, you're in the sweet spot, which is you are not too old for a, every 19 year old boy wants to date you.

[982] In fact, we've gotten proof of that because they keep approaching you that are young.

[983] I do think that's actually the category that.

[984] Highest category.

[985] And then you're old enough, like you're 33.

[986] So even a 60 year old man's like, he can have a conversation with you.

[987] Well, I hope.

[988] Yeah, you're not talking about like what college you're getting into.

[989] And he's like, oh, yeah, well, good luck with that.

[990] I'm not reminding him that we're much, much different age.

[991] That's true.

[992] You're in this really golden error of your life where it's, I think almost every age group probably wants to date you.

[993] Wow.

[994] Of the 9 % that doesn't want to date you, 4 % of them are gay.

[995] Oh, okay.

[996] Okay.

[997] I don't think that's.

[998] 2 % are blind.

[999] Oh, boy.

[1000] Okay.

[1001] 1 % can't hear.

[1002] Okay.

[1003] And the other 80 % stupid.

[1004] So.

[1005] All right.

[1006] Pretty much 100 % of people you'd want to date are available to you.

[1007] Anyways, he DMed.

[1008] I'm just telling you this because I felt so good that he enjoyed the experience.

[1009] Me too.

[1010] Yeah.

[1011] Because he was nervous, as he said.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] And you would hope he walked away and then liked how it turned out.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] It's not like his first pick to talk for two hours.

[1016] No, and that's one thing I wanted to clarify because in the episode, we start in our intro with like, oh, he was so shocked.

[1017] Hi, and we want to nurture him.

[1018] And then you listen to the episode, and he doesn't sound shy at all.

[1019] He just sounds super cool at what he is.

[1020] Yes.

[1021] And then I was like, oh, it sounds weird.

[1022] It sounds like we've, like, decided he's, like, anxious to be around us.

[1023] But he told us he was.

[1024] Yes, and he just has a sweetness that if you're in person, when you're observing the whole package, there's a sweetness that makes you want to protect him.

[1025] He was so lovely.

[1026] Do we agree that people try to intrigue one another by DMing them?

[1027] That's pretty much like in our culture.

[1028] Yes, I think that is culturally how you get things rolling.

[1029] Something that happens.

[1030] Hasn't happened to me?

[1031] Well, I don't check my DMs unless it's Leon.

[1032] Unless you follow them.

[1033] So with that said, you know, he didn't DM me and he DMD you.

[1034] Seems like you're really stuck on that point.

[1035] Yeah.

[1036] And so, well, no, it's fine.

[1037] But it does open up the door to me that like, oh, hmm.

[1038] Maybe he thought DMing you was like too much.

[1039] No. Yeah.

[1040] He's cooler than I am.

[1041] Well, I know, but he might not know that.

[1042] He might not know that.

[1043] Here's the thing.

[1044] So don't want you to move to Fort Worth.

[1045] Yeah, well, it doesn't sound like he's going to be happy living in L .A. I agree.

[1046] And I just bought a house.

[1047] Yeah, and it's beautiful.

[1048] And it's going to be even more beautiful when you're done.

[1049] In 16 years.

[1050] Yeah, exactly.

[1051] Yeah, so the Fort Worth of it all scares me. I'm not going there.

[1052] I can't.

[1053] I have plans.

[1054] Could you guys compromise on Austin?

[1055] I'll DM him and I. All right.

[1056] At DMN, say, can we live together in Austin?

[1057] What if that was your next DM?

[1058] And what if he wrote back?

[1059] Fuck, yes.

[1060] Thank you for asking.

[1061] Oh, my God.

[1062] You get your fantasy.

[1063] Your fantasy life is worse than mine.

[1064] But, you know, you're the only character in my life that I can have all these fantasies about.

[1065] I know.

[1066] You're living vicariously.

[1067] Yes.

[1068] I always, well, you know, you go out to drinks on week nights at these fun LA restaurants.

[1069] And I'm always like giddy.

[1070] I'm always like, oh my God, have so much fun and talk to people.

[1071] And yeah, I get really excited that you're out there having fun and you're young and you're in Los Angeles, California, soon to be Austin.

[1072] And I also get excited about just things I'm not a part of maybe too.

[1073] Because like, remember yesterday you and Molly and Kristen were like you were having your girl time.

[1074] That's right.

[1075] About some interior decorating stuff.

[1076] Yes.

[1077] And like I could want to get like I could want to be a part of that.

[1078] But I can't.

[1079] I can't.

[1080] Like I would be faking my emotions that you guys are just naturally having.

[1081] You wish you felt the way we felt.

[1082] Yeah, yeah.

[1083] I wouldn't want to be fraudulently like, oh my God, yeah, it's circular.

[1084] All the ones you see are square and this is like.

[1085] Yeah, I just got a PQ and you said that.

[1086] You did, it's circular.

[1087] Well, I told you my theory on sexual attraction.

[1088] It's just circles.

[1089] Oh.

[1090] Men just like circles.

[1091] It's so simple.

[1092] Well, I just meant.

[1093] It doesn't make any sense.

[1094] I just meant I got a PQ when you were talking about interior decorating.

[1095] Interior design, yeah.

[1096] Back to circles.

[1097] Okay.

[1098] So what guys like about a butt, if you break it down, it's just two circles.

[1099] And then the breast, it's two circles.

[1100] Yeah, but you don't even like circles.

[1101] No, I love round features.

[1102] You do not like circles.

[1103] You don't like circular tables.

[1104] Oh, oh, oh.

[1105] You don't like...

[1106] In interior design.

[1107] Right, and in light.

[1108] That's right.

[1109] I want it to be the domain of the woman.

[1110] Oh, wow.

[1111] Yeah.

[1112] Okay.

[1113] That's where circles should list.

[1114] Well, cars...

[1115] No, you'd think that you'd really like a circular table because it would kind of remind you of a boobs or breasts.

[1116] Well, I like wheels on cars.

[1117] That's where I exhibit all of my creative flair is on the wheel selection of a car.

[1118] And they're a circular and I love it.

[1119] Mix messages.

[1120] It's just really funny that the complexity of a human being and yet really they're just bonkers for circles.

[1121] It's not just circles.

[1122] It's what they represent sex.

[1123] It's not that they're circles.

[1124] You're dirty.

[1125] Every time we try to have like an elevated conversation about circles, your mind goes straight to the gutter.

[1126] I don't like roundabouts all that much, interestingly.

[1127] I think I want to be done talking about circles now.

[1128] Because we're getting mad at you.

[1129] I want to air a grievance, unrelated to the circles.

[1130] Okay.

[1131] So when you wear a cute outfit, I make a whole to do about it.

[1132] Oh, shit.

[1133] Like the whole intro will be about your shoes or your shirt or whatever.

[1134] Yeah.

[1135] Well, here we are.

[1136] Well, now you've asked for it, so now it's uncomfortable.

[1137] I know, I know, and you forced me to ask you.

[1138] Listen, I was going to get there because I actually was going to start with that.

[1139] Okay.

[1140] As you do, because I did note, O'Dax always talks about my cute outfit, so I got to talk about his cute outfit.

[1141] But then I sat in something wet.

[1142] True.

[1143] And that became the highest priority for me. As it should be, yeah.

[1144] You're in a very cute outfit.

[1145] I have my first jumpsuit.

[1146] Yeah, it's, I guess we'd call it a boiler.

[1147] Oh, I think you're right.

[1148] I think on the website I had to figure out it was called a boiler.

[1149] Yes.

[1150] And it's short sleeve.

[1151] Yeah, yeah.

[1152] It's a real Anderson pack jumper or boiler.

[1153] It's really nice.

[1154] I like it because it's floods too.

[1155] I guess they're supposed to be probably.

[1156] Yeah, I like to roll up my jumpsuits.

[1157] I get to put on a loud sock, which I like, as you know.

[1158] Should we do jump?

[1159] We're going to have a live show, you guys.

[1160] That's right.

[1161] Yeah, we're going to go back out on the road in September.

[1162] Do you think we should wear matching jumpsuits?

[1163] Yes.

[1164] Oh, fuck.

[1165] This is great.

[1166] Do you think people object, though, that they're not overalls?

[1167] That seems to be the uniform we're supposed to wear.

[1168] We can evolve.

[1169] Okay, great.

[1170] Let's not get pigeonholed.

[1171] This is a ding, ding, ding.

[1172] Okay.

[1173] About cute boys.

[1174] Oh, great.

[1175] Mark Ronson.

[1176] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1177] Mark Ronson is a very cute boy.

[1178] You thought he was so cute.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] I thought he was first.

[1181] cute when I saw him on the Lady Gaga documentary.

[1182] Oh, that's where it started.

[1183] That's where I first saw and I was like, who is this person?

[1184] Wow.

[1185] I love this one.

[1186] I find this out.

[1187] Then I did a deep dive.

[1188] Then I found out it was him.

[1189] Oh, my God.

[1190] You love your deep dive.

[1191] And I wanted to talk a little bit, because at the very beginning, we talk a little bit astrological.

[1192] Oh, okay.

[1193] And I wanted to look up your horoscope.

[1194] Okay.

[1195] All right.

[1196] Okay.

[1197] Because I know, I know you don't believe in it.

[1198] And neither do I really.

[1199] But then it's one of those things where you read it and then maybe it's a self -fulfilling prophecy in a good way sure yeah i don't believe it has any merit which is not to say i don't enjoy reading a paragraph that's supposed to be about me i think that's why people love horoscopes because it's about them they think yeah my issue can i just say my issue with it yeah 12 types of people that's what we're saying yeah it's so limited also you know people that have your same sign and you're like i am nothing like that person so somehow i don't know how this paragraph's telling both of us what's going to happen to us.

[1200] Right.

[1201] I agree with you.

[1202] There's so much variation.

[1203] But then when you start, you know, we've done all these interviews, you start realizing actually most people are pretty much the same.

[1204] That's true too.

[1205] So.

[1206] Yeah.

[1207] That's a flip side of that coin.

[1208] That's right.

[1209] Everyone's the same person and everyone's so different.

[1210] Now you're a J2C.

[1211] Thank you.

[1212] That's Capricorn.

[1213] Yeah.

[1214] Okay.

[1215] This is the month of July 2021.

[1216] No, no, not July.

[1217] Oh.

[1218] Yeah, now.

[1219] Oh, I got you.

[1220] I was going to say I was born in January.

[1221] This is the Capricorn Monthly Horscope for July 2021.

[1222] Running out of time.

[1223] Okay, go ahead.

[1224] It's called Clean Slade.

[1225] Oh, okay.

[1226] Capricorn.

[1227] The focus this month is on relationships.

[1228] This is not the time to go.

[1229] Uh -oh.

[1230] This is not the time to go solo, but to work as part of a team or a couple because you'll be able to accomplish more that way.

[1231] Okay.

[1232] Freaky.

[1233] That's weird.

[1234] Yeah.

[1235] Yeah.

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] Oh, my God.

[1238] Also this.

[1239] It's so Bader Meinhoff.

[1240] Go ahead.

[1241] Go ahead.

[1242] Okay.

[1243] Your love life may also be in the spotlight.

[1244] You could feel moved to spend more quality time with your partner or hold discussions that can resolve any difficulties you're going through.

[1245] Good communication is key.

[1246] But you went on a family vacation.

[1247] I did.

[1248] I did.

[1249] An 18 -day trip.

[1250] Wow.

[1251] I know.

[1252] But here's the thing.

[1253] It's Bader Mindhoff.

[1254] So like you hear the thing and then you search your whole month and then you find the thing that that relates to.

[1255] So it's a little Bader Mindhop.

[1256] It is.

[1257] But wow.

[1258] There's one more.

[1259] I got one for a program.

[1260] Oh, my God.

[1261] With the new moon and cancer on July 9th, there is an opportunity to take certain relationships to a new level.

[1262] If you're considering a business partnership, this is an excellent time to set one up because things can go from strength to strength.

[1263] You might also want to commit further to a romance as showing signs of promise.

[1264] Oh, my God.

[1265] There's so much romance.

[1266] I know.

[1267] I know like you just throw all that off the table.

[1268] You ignore like more than half of it's wrong because I'm not single.

[1269] Okay.

[1270] Hold on.

[1271] Now I'm going to do me. Yeah, do you.

[1272] Let's see.

[1273] Virgo Monthly Horscope, self -discovery.

[1274] Oh.

[1275] Virgo, your social life looks promising as this month gets underway, with the sun in your sector of friendship and groups until July 22nd.

[1276] That passed.

[1277] And with convivial mercury moving into this zone on the 11th, the chance to connect and enjoy outings and events can certainly boost your mood.

[1278] Are you ready to branch out and move in new circles?

[1279] There's a delightful new moon and cancer on July 9th.

[1280] 9th, making this a great opportunity to set your intention to make new friends and connect with kindred spirits.

[1281] And if you have a long -held dream that you're eager to start on, now is the time.

[1282] Okay, well, I miss that.

[1283] Um, mine isn't as fun.

[1284] Yeah, I'm not getting any bait or mine hop from yours.

[1285] All right.

[1286] So mine isn't as good.

[1287] I wish we could find August, because we need to know what's coming up, not what happened.

[1288] Right.

[1289] That's true, because we got to make big moves and plan.

[1290] like invest in things and do you want your um yearly sure or do or your daily oh fuck yeah hit me with today okay this is my gonna find love again today you might wow wait what the hell maybe I have to pay oh they probably want you to pay okay I'm not gonna pay okay um all right well that was again so if we're just looking at something like so only half of mine was right which was a outstanding.

[1291] The half that was right was really fun.

[1292] Yeah.

[1293] But half was wrong.

[1294] Right.

[1295] And then your entire thing was wrong.

[1296] So we're looking at something that was 25 % right.

[1297] There is nothing in the world we would say is a good barometer if it's 25 % right.

[1298] It's not even 50 % right.

[1299] Yeah.

[1300] You know what I'm saying?

[1301] I guess.

[1302] But the things that said about you that were right, were really right.

[1303] Yeah.

[1304] Eerie.

[1305] It was eerie.

[1306] Yeah.

[1307] All right.

[1308] Well, that was a kind of fun little detour.

[1309] Yeah, I like that.

[1310] Okay, so he mentions DJ AM.

[1311] Yeah.

[1312] And is he passed?

[1313] Yeah, he OD.

[1314] He was a DJ.

[1315] He was probably the first, like, rock star DJ where he would make, I don't know, $100 grand a night to play at a nightclub.

[1316] Got it.

[1317] And he had a, I think he had a residency in Vegas.

[1318] But he, boy, I think I can tell this because there's a documentary about him.

[1319] Because it blurs into like I had a personal friendship with him.

[1320] Yeah, you said you knew him.

[1321] Yeah.

[1322] In a nutshell, he was sober for.

[1323] very long time and he was really sober.

[1324] He was like a great, great member of the program and sponsored a lot of guys.

[1325] He was very inspirational person.

[1326] He and Travis from Blink 1282 were on a private airplane and it took off and it crashed.

[1327] And there was a huge fire.

[1328] Oh my God.

[1329] Travis's like assistant best friend died.

[1330] Oh my God.

[1331] And both of them were burnt.

[1332] pretty badly oh and he developed this very understandable fear of flying sure and his job is to fly places all over the country and play yeah and so he was prescribed Xanax so that he could fly and he i know he really wrestled with whether or not to take it and i think he took it as prescribed for a while and And then I think he got into a little slippery area of how many did he take on these flights.

[1333] And then I think he felt kind of unsober.

[1334] And then it led down a path where he ended up doing all the things he had once done.

[1335] And it's heartbreaking.

[1336] He was supposed to go to treatment, you know, the following day.

[1337] Oh, my God.

[1338] That is so sad.

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] So he kind of knew my understanding is that he knew treatment was on the horizon.

[1341] and he kind of had one last thing and yeah, and he died.

[1342] And he was the sweetest guy.

[1343] He was wonderful.

[1344] Oh, no. Yeah, and insanely talented.

[1345] Like, I remember, I just knew he was a DJ.

[1346] I don't care about DJs.

[1347] I don't follow them.

[1348] I think I stupidly was like, what these people play other people's music.

[1349] How are they an artist?

[1350] And then I saw his sets.

[1351] I saw a few of them.

[1352] And they're another thing.

[1353] Yeah, totally.

[1354] It's insane.

[1355] I really became a, like a believer of that after witnessing what he could do.

[1356] Man, that's tragic.

[1357] It's so sad because what a crazy set of circumstances.

[1358] Exactly.

[1359] You know.

[1360] He had no control over.

[1361] Certainly over a plane crash.

[1362] You know.

[1363] Yeah, it's, it's such a slippery slope.

[1364] It points out how tenuous the whole thing is.

[1365] I know.

[1366] Yeah.

[1367] Your life is so much this balance of like either maintaining status quo or getting incrementally better.

[1368] And then also it can just get incrementally worse.

[1369] Yeah.

[1370] And then it can be self -perpetuating.

[1371] And like you can just get on the wrong track for a minute.

[1372] And then it can leak.

[1373] It's like rabbit hole with the dude.

[1374] Like yeah.

[1375] There's all these.

[1376] It's, it's scary.

[1377] You really have to be intentional about monitoring yourself at all times.

[1378] Yes.

[1379] You really, you don't get a vacation from.

[1380] Like most people can go like on a vacation and be like, yeah, I'm going to drink today at 10 a .m. That's not a decision.

[1381] that's going to impact them.

[1382] Like, they can just for two days be on a vacation and drink all day and whatever.

[1383] Yeah.

[1384] Yeah.

[1385] And I guess with this thing, you don't, you don't ever have, like, a freedom of I'm going to do what I want to do.

[1386] You don't ever get to do what you want to do.

[1387] And that's a weird admission.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] But I also think it does apply to an average person, too, because you can, like, you know, go on vacation and have a drink or whatever.

[1390] I mean, we don't even have to make this about substance, anything.

[1391] No, it can be you can get fired.

[1392] Yeah.

[1393] And then you can get in some fight with your room.

[1394] and then you can blank and then you can blank and then you pick a bad partner because your self -esteem's love.

[1395] And then all of a sudden you just literally can, yeah.

[1396] Yes.

[1397] That part is scary.

[1398] It is.

[1399] But I do think if you are trying to be self -aware, it can help.

[1400] At least if you make the point, like I have to think about where I am.

[1401] Yeah.

[1402] How am I doing, really?

[1403] And ask people around you.

[1404] I think like making sure that you're taking in cues from other people.

[1405] From hindsight, this seems like it could have potentially been a fix, which is he made enough money to hire a person who travels with him and gives him the one's annex and holds his annex.

[1406] But I can see if I'm him like, really, man, I got to have a human being that I pay to fucking hold.

[1407] Like, it feels so defeatist to think that that's what you would have to do.

[1408] But probably that was the solution that would have been the best.

[1409] is like, I know myself, I shouldn't probably have the thing, but I need to take it to fly.

[1410] I should maybe, I don't know.

[1411] Well, and if he had been sober for a long time, that it can get so dangerous.

[1412] It can.

[1413] There's, I think, two elements of, like, just that feeling like you're not sober is really dangerous because then you feel like you don't have much to lose.

[1414] Like, I've already kind of lost that special feeling of being dead sober.

[1415] Yeah.

[1416] And then, two, you're reminded what being high feels like.

[1417] Yeah.

[1418] And as you get further away from it, it gets easier.

[1419] to resist that because you don't really remember what it feels like.

[1420] Well, and if you're sober for so long, you feel that you have a handle on it.

[1421] Yeah, like you've earned some kind of, yeah, I know.

[1422] That's the great trick of that the saying in AA is you got sober 10 years ago, your addiction didn't go away.

[1423] It's doing push -ups.

[1424] It's waiting.

[1425] It's getting stronger.

[1426] It can't wait for you to go back.

[1427] Like, it doesn't get weaker, it gets stronger, which is seems not possible, but proves to be possible almost every time.

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] Well, that's a very sad story.

[1430] Okay, so he said a Quincy Jones quote.

[1431] The Quincy Jones quote is, apparently this phrase came from a dialogue between Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson.

[1432] Jones apparently said to Jackson, if a song needs strings, it will tell you, get out of the way and leave room so that God can walk in.

[1433] He later rephrases to, you've got to leave space for God to walk through the room.

[1434] Mm. Cool.

[1435] I like that.

[1436] Me too.

[1437] And you joke that you use an exclusive site to do your research.

[1438] That's right, yeah.

[1439] It costs me $150 ,000 a year to be a member of this because it's like the most cutting edge research.

[1440] Very exclusive, very limited a dish.

[1441] Pew Research.

[1442] I'm involved with them.

[1443] It's Wikipedia.

[1444] And I'm involved with the Rand Corporation.

[1445] All the think tanks, I'm getting most of my info from.

[1446] Right.

[1447] also Wikipedia.

[1448] Rarely, like if I don't have internet.

[1449] Because I got to have a T1 hookup for all these other things.

[1450] I got to have like, I got to be at my computer center.

[1451] Okay.

[1452] Because the information comes in so fast and stuff.

[1453] Well, Wikipedia.

[1454] I mean, look.

[1455] Listen, this is the fact that I got to say it.

[1456] I got to say it.

[1457] I just got to say it.

[1458] Okay.

[1459] Now, that's all the facts I have procured because pulling back the curtain.

[1460] Uh -huh.

[1461] I am only halfway done editing this episode.

[1462] Yeah, that's okay.

[1463] And I apologize.

[1464] You shouldn't.

[1465] Well, I should because I haven't finished.

[1466] I haven't finished.

[1467] I got to choose my words carefully here.

[1468] The facts are super important.

[1469] They're great.

[1470] I love them.

[1471] I want you to always do the facts.

[1472] And I don't think it's the most important part of the fact check.

[1473] I would agree, but it is my commitment to the people.

[1474] Yeah.

[1475] And I respect that you respect that.

[1476] And I want you to keep doing it.

[1477] But I also think that people probably get what they came for, even if there's, because sometimes there's no. facts sometimes we'll talk for 25 minutes but in this case there might be there might be some facts that i haven't heard yet and i just want people like that the ghetto boys are in from houston right yeah well that was a fact i didn't say and i guess i cut out so that's extra bad it's fine it didn't mean anything to you and probably i don't know how many fans of the podcast are also fans of ghetto boys i don't know what the bin diagram overlap of that is but i'm guessing it's razor sharp like the same margin of people who don't want to date you like it's like it's on the pie graph but you can't even you can't figure out what color it is because it's just the lines they're so close together you don't even know what color they put in there wow that makes sense i wonder if all the people who don't want to date me also love ghetto boys yeah that'd be interesting no not a chance okay ghetto boys listeners fucking love you okay great yeah because of my um all my circles i can i just say so much spark talking to him.

[1478] Oh my God, such a fun.

[1479] It was really great.

[1480] Interview.

[1481] He's so interesting, I think.

[1482] What a very, very, very specific life that I don't know much about.

[1483] Like the DJ world and the music producing world is so specific.

[1484] I really liked the way he kind of equated it to almost like you're a therapist.

[1485] You have to like feel the energy of the person.

[1486] Very empathic.

[1487] Yeah.

[1488] And also, not that he is this, but perfect job for a codependent because you're basically like you're making someone else's problem yours like it's the artist's problem to create an album and you're kind of making it yours with them true but i think it's also like you have to have a lot of skill in because you're working with all these incredible artists with incredible talent but you yourself have a talent and you're providing that but you have to do it in a way that doesn't look like you're taking over in the back in the back background in a way.

[1489] Exactly.

[1490] Yeah.

[1491] Okay.

[1492] Well, that's all we got.

[1493] And you look so cute.

[1494] Your outfit's so cute.

[1495] I just want to end on that.

[1496] Thank you.

[1497] Thank you.

[1498] Thank you.

[1499] Thank you.

[1500] Thank you.

[1501] Thank you so much.

[1502] I really like it.

[1503] I like it too.

[1504] I think it's going to be your new look.

[1505] I think so too.

[1506] Yeah.

[1507] It's great because you don't have to pick out a shirt and slacks.

[1508] You just pick out this one thing.

[1509] Have you tried to pee?

[1510] Yeah.

[1511] And did you like that?

[1512] It was great.

[1513] Okay.

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] That's the one part that gets a little hard for a girl.

[1516] Yeah.

[1517] You got to basically get naked in a public restroom to go.

[1518] potty.

[1519] Let me build a little flap in back.

[1520] Like the jammies, like the cowboy jams.

[1521] Well, that's if you're pooping.

[1522] No, because you would lift it up and back and then you'd sit down your bare butt would be on the toilet and your yawn could pass through that hole, right?

[1523] You wouldn't do it in front.

[1524] You don't pee frontwards, do you?

[1525] To my knowledge.

[1526] Do you stand when you pee?

[1527] No. Oh my God.

[1528] This would be the best breaking news of all time.

[1529] This little known fact we didn't know about you that you pee standing up.

[1530] I wish.

[1531] I mean, I have.

[1532] I have in the shower.

[1533] Of course.

[1534] And you don't ride the bull backwards, right?

[1535] What's that mean?

[1536] You don't face the tank of water.

[1537] You face out.

[1538] Right.

[1539] But the thing I'm proposing, if you did reverse cowgirl, the toilet wouldn't work.

[1540] The flap and back.

[1541] Oh, I see.

[1542] But as long as you're riding it as prescribed, then the flap and back would work beautifully.

[1543] All right.

[1544] I guess you can make me one and I'll try it.

[1545] I'm going to give me an extra, whatever pair you don't like.

[1546] Let me work with it a little bit.

[1547] Okay.

[1548] And I just do want to tease we have a great episode.

[1549] coming out on Monday, and everyone should be excited.

[1550] Who's coming out on Monday?

[1551] Oh, boy.

[1552] All right, I love you.

[1553] Oh, my God.

[1554] I love you.

[1555] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1556] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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[1558] Thank you.