Discipline In The Midst of Defiance & Meltdowns

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[22] So what do you do in the moment, right, when everything's going down, when you've got maybe a younger child who goes from zero to?

[23] to 10 like that who gets so upset they just start to throw things maybe they hit things maybe they throw themselves on the floor they're saying inappropriate things or maybe you've got an older child who gets really upset and they end up calling you names or maybe even dropping the f bomb on you and saying really inappropriate things that you would have never even thought about saying to your child how do you discipline in the moment that's what we're going to talk about today on the Calm Parenting podcast.

[24] So welcome.

[25] This is Kirk Martin, founder Celebrate Calm.

[26] You can find us Celebrate Calm.

[27] If you need help, reach out to our strong -billed son, who was the toddler who melted down in the grocery store, who was difficult for when one parent, watch how many of your kids are like this.

[28] When they're out with one parent, it's awesome.

[29] It's good.

[30] But when there are two parents or the whole family, the whole night is ruined.

[31] You have to walk on eggshells and they kind of, right?

[32] And he was the child who was very volatile in a moment.

[33] kind of explosive and he was child when he got a little bit older had kind of a salty little mouth I don't know where he got that from it was from me but he was he was your child I am was your husband maybe I have some exhibit some of the traits of your wife or who you are but we as a family are and were you so we get it so if you reach out to Casey he will help you this is a personal mission for us It's not a business.

[34] It's a mission because these things have ramifications for your relationships.

[35] And that's really all that's important in life is relationships.

[36] And we want to help you.

[37] So reach out.

[38] Tell us about your family.

[39] We'll offer some tips, some strategies, some ideas.

[40] And we will offer you our resources customized for you within your budget.

[41] We have a big New Year's sale going on right now.

[42] And we have a special mentoring program so that you can talk directly with me. And I will walk you through this and we'll get very, very, very specific to your situation.

[43] So here's a question we had as a follow up to a phone consultation.

[44] So when should we coach, teach, instruct our child about his behavior?

[45] Should we do it in the moment?

[46] Because my spouse wants to discuss right from wrong and ethics, we're kind of while it's happening.

[47] And so here's my answer.

[48] Nobody hears anything in the moment when they're upset.

[49] As much as we like to think, that's the optimal time to discuss behavior.

[50] kids and adults are usually processing way too many emotions to really hear anything and learn.

[51] Because here's what they're thinking about and processing, their own shame and embarrassment.

[52] Please write down the word shame.

[53] Many of your strong will children struggle with shame.

[54] And here's how I know and here's how you will know.

[55] How many of your kids lie?

[56] Almost every phone consultation and mentoring procession that I do, the parent will say this.

[57] well my child won't he doesn't accept responsibility for his behavior and I'm like well he probably lies too right and they're like yes how did you know well lying look lying is a good it's a good thing in a sense because here's what it means it means your child knows right from wrong and they know that they did something wrong they just don't want the consequence or more likely they feel helpless to change because no child wakes up in the morning and thinks hmm I think I think I like for everybody to be upset at me and for me to lose everything that I own today.

[58] They don't.

[59] And so they know they did something wrong and so they lie to get out of it or because they feel helpless or, and this is probably and because they feel ashamed because they know it's wrong.

[60] And all of that is going through their little heads, anxiety and fear and anger and guilt and frustration and confusion.

[61] When you're having a little fight with your spouse, you don't think clearly, right?

[62] As a married couple, do you have great conversations when you're upset at each other?

[63] No, that's when you say things that are hurtful or that are misunderstood.

[64] It's always better after you've had time to process and calm down.

[65] So it's much better to walk away to calm down and then instruct, if at all, in a very low -key short, and I do mean short, like 30 seconds.

[66] I want this, I want this to be short and sweet because we go on and on and on and it provokes your child to anger and frustration.

[67] Look, we do this thing like, hey, come here.

[68] We need to talk about your behavior.

[69] Oh, okay, mom and dad, I can't wait.

[70] Well, you just show me and pick out everything that I did wrong and then just keep going on and on and on about it over and over again so that inside I feel like an awful human being like I can never please you.

[71] Let's just do that, can we?

[72] Right?

[73] That's, right?

[74] It's like, your boss calling you in every single day and pointing out every single thing that you do wrong and then send you out of his or her office, you're not going to be like, thanks so much.

[75] I really want to work hard for you now.

[76] It's not the way life works.

[77] Right.

[78] And so if I do instruct when I do it, it's short, it's sweet.

[79] It's a very low key tone.

[80] I do not give a lot of energy to when I am disciplining.

[81] And I often talk to kids and I want to talk to kids while I'm walking next to them.

[82] We're walking the dog.

[83] We're building with Legos.

[84] We're cooking.

[85] Why?

[86] Because I'm not staring at the child, looking him in his eyes while I'm telling him why I'm disappointed in him and not proud of him.

[87] Right.

[88] It's too much intensity with that eye contact.

[89] It's much better to do it while you're playing catch with a football or something else.

[90] And you bring your intensity to the positive, not the negative and modeling modeling is always much more important and much more powerful it's what you do in your daily life that that's your greatest lecture right because if you talk too much and you do that your kids are going to tune you out or end up hating you and it's just not going to work so space and time is really important and when you discipline this is what I wanted to hit on we have often a very harmful views of what discipline is based on maybe the way we were disciplined or in some ways for then most of many of you who are religious and grow up very strict in a religious sense you grow up with this thing of like well discipline is about punishment right because it is about punishment because that's what my parents did to me and that's what my religion teaches is just about punishment.

[91] Discipline does not mean to punish.

[92] It doesn't mean to take away things.

[93] We've already established before many times that your kids don't care about consequences.

[94] Consequences don't work for your kids.

[95] If they worked, you wouldn't be listening to the Calm Parenting podcast, right?

[96] And so we know that.

[97] And so it doesn't mean take away things, send to your room.

[98] By the way, we will teach you how to discipline in such a way that good discipline always leads to a more trusting, closer relationship with your child.

[99] Inadvertently, when we get upset, what do we end up?

[100] Go to your room right now.

[101] Right?

[102] That's not the kind of space that I want.

[103] Go to your room right now.

[104] And inadvertently, in the moment when our child needs us most, because he's struggling and full of shame, we send that child away from us, which further reinforces, I don't like you.

[105] There's something wrong with you.

[106] You're not the good child, right, that doesn't work.

[107] Discipline means to teach, literally means to teach.

[108] It also means in some ways, if you look at the root, to disciple someone, which is to teach them by modeling it in front of them, right?

[109] And so three things I really want you to key in on, if you want to take notes on this, it's three quick little statements that for the next week, let's work on this.

[110] One, let's give tools.

[111] Give the child tools instead of just giving consequences.

[112] I want to give tools to show them how to deal with frustration, how to do with their anxiety, how to deal with impulse control.

[113] I give tools instead of consequences.

[114] Number two, instead of reinforcing failure or punishing a child for failure, because that's really what consequences are.

[115] I'm punishing you for the fact that you've failed.

[116] Instead, I want to create successes.

[117] See, I give a child tools so that I can create a success, right?

[118] Instead of just barking consequences and reinforcing failure.

[119] And number three, I want for the next week, affirm for what they're doing well instead of always pointing out what they're not doing well.

[120] Do those three things this week.

[121] It will begin to change your child's behavior.

[122] And so in the moment, no, I'm not going to talk to them about their morals and integrity and how they're not hearing it.

[123] I want to do that.

[124] And I really want to do those three things.

[125] Instead, proactively, that will change behavior.

[126] So let's get to do another example I got from parents.

[127] I just did a really good family signed up for mentoring with me, which I love because we can get into a lot of detail about their individual situations and what I find out about is okay here's how dad grew up here's how mom grew up here's the interaction between mom and dad and I can kind of be the go between there and now we're going to talk about the child and also about his siblings and we can get a lot done when we learn all of that in this case it's a 15 year old child who's talking to his father in a disrespectful tone it goes way beyond disrespect it's kind of almost bullying if he's being mean to his dad and saying really awful words that we would have never said.

[128] And in those situations, I can talk to the dad and say, I get it.

[129] My dad was career military, right?

[130] I get this.

[131] When we were kids, right?

[132] That's what we go to.

[133] When I was a kid, if I had said that or done that to my father, he would have taken me out behind the woodshed and we know the rest of that, right?

[134] And I get that.

[135] And so what I like to talk to dads about and moms also is this you're justified in the moment in the moment you're justified in being angry irate frustrated you flabbergasted why is this child talking to me like this hurt you're justified in feeling disrespected and you're going to have anxiety and fear over this right because what's going to happen in their future by the way don't worry about that you know why your kids are awesome for other adults.

[136] They're just horrible for you.

[137] And they're going to spend all their life with other adults.

[138] So I don't want you to worry about the future.

[139] I want you to deal with what's going on right now.

[140] But I don't want you to react in the moment.

[141] Why?

[142] Because it never works.

[143] Think about the last 143 times this has happened and you reacted to it and you got upset.

[144] Did it help?

[145] Did it do anything?

[146] Well, maybe it satisfied some immature part of you that wants to show your child who's boss that you're the authority figure, but you end up losing it, you lose control of yourself, you're not in control of the situation, your child's in complete control of you, and we end up saying things that we don't mean, and we break the relationship.

[147] And that's why space and a little bit of time are important.

[148] And I have no problem with taking a tough approach and saying, look, I'm disappointed, it's really disappointing when you talk to me like that.

[149] And I imagine you feel disappointed in yourself.

[150] I get that you're angry.

[151] you're frustrated, something's going on, you're irritating, right?

[152] And I'm going to give you a little time.

[153] What I want you to know is calling me names like that, it's not going to hurt me, but it will hurt you because look, I've got too much self -respect to allow someone to treat me like that, then turn around and take you different places and fix special meals for you.

[154] Right?

[155] And so the core message is you can do that if you want.

[156] It's not going to hurt me, it's going to hurt you because you're a teenager and you're going to want freedom to go places, get your driver's license.

[157] But look, if you think you're going to talk to me like that, and then I'm going to turn around and give you all that freedom, it's just not going to happen.

[158] It's going to hurt you.

[159] And it's in a very short, sweet way.

[160] It's in an even matter -of -fact tone.

[161] I'm not getting upset.

[162] And then I'm going to invite the child and say, look, I need to go get the laundry done.

[163] I'm going to go start cooking dinner.

[164] I've got to go work out in the garage for a few minutes.

[165] Listen, why don't you take a little time, but when you're ready, if you want to come, and grab me, I'd be glad to listen to you.

[166] If you want to watch a show together, show me a couple TikToks, which I hate more than anything else in the world, don't say that part.

[167] You want to go walk the dog, I'll help you out with it.

[168] So I can address the issue in the moment.

[169] I can address that.

[170] And then I can invite them to me after they've had some space, and I've let them know, look, you talk to me, things are going to go well for you.

[171] Right?

[172] Just let you know, that's perspective.

[173] Just let you know.

[174] It's just how I roll.

[175] It's how it works.

[176] I don't have to do along.

[177] I can't believe that you talk to me like that.

[178] How are you ever going to be successful in life?

[179] Because you know, and I want to warn you with this.

[180] You know what we do to our kids when we react in a moment and we say those things?

[181] We curse them.

[182] We curse their past, their present, and their future.

[183] You know what?

[184] You've always been difficult since the day you were born.

[185] And you know what you don't listen to me?

[186] And how are you ever going to be successful in life?

[187] And you know what we did?

[188] We just pronounced a curse on their past, their present, and their future.

[189] And you know what a kid does when he hears that, I'm shutting down.

[190] You think I'm going to do anything for you?

[191] Take everything away.

[192] I don't care.

[193] Or they're going to go right to you.

[194] You know what?

[195] Go F yourself.

[196] Because what's the upside here.

[197] You don't like me. Here's what you just told me. You don't like, you didn't like me in the past.

[198] You don't like me right now.

[199] And you don't see much of a future for me. So guess what?

[200] Go F yourself.

[201] Why would I do anything for you?

[202] And I get it.

[203] When you hear a child talk disrespectfully to you, you're justified.

[204] You'd be justified.

[205] You'd be justified in reaming that child.

[206] But it doesn't lead to anything good or productive and it further breaks the relationship.

[207] And so you're justified.

[208] I get it.

[209] But I want to pause of the thought when your kids get a little bit older.

[210] Maybe your child is justified.

[211] Maybe just a little bit.

[212] And I want you to hear this and get inside your child's heart and head.

[213] Because you know what he might be feeling?

[214] He might be feeling like I can never really please you.

[215] And mom, dad, it feels like everybody is teeming up on me. And you've heard that before, haven't you?

[216] And I know your response as a good parent is inside.

[217] It's like, well, if you just listen to us, we wouldn't have to team up on you because it takes two of us to just corral one of you.

[218] We already ask you to do really about 30 % of what you should be doing and you don't even do as much as your brother and sister.

[219] And so, yeah, kind of teaming up on you.

[220] but if you would just do what we asked, we wouldn't have to.

[221] But what I want you to know is your child, a strong -willed child, feels like the entire world, everybody's teeming up on him.

[222] Because you know what starts to trigger in these kids?

[223] You know, when I was four, when I was five, when I was six, I was in preschool.

[224] And here's what I know.

[225] I got in trouble just for being me. They had this thing called Circle Time, where you had to sit on a circle, crisscross applesauce, all uncomfortable, and listen to a teacher talk about boring stuff.

[226] But I was really curious.

[227] So I wanted to roam around the room because I had some ideas of some things I want to make and create and build.

[228] And it was in my brain and I wanted to do that.

[229] And all I knew was I started getting in trouble.

[230] And there were conferences and people were talking about me. Like there was something wrong with me. And mom and dad, you know what that feels like when you're a little kid and you feel different from everybody else and you get in trouble for doing really what you're supposed to be doing because when your kids are three and four and five and six and seven they're supposed to be curious they're supposed to make messes they're supposed to experiment but it messes with your sense of order because you have anxiety or you need a high sense of order and you don't like when things are all over the place and it messes with you and you're child isn't necessarily even doing anything wrong.

[231] They're actually doing what they're supposed to be doing and then society, the teachers, the school, we as parents, other people, wherever they go, end up saying there's something wrong with you and we need to fix you.

[232] And all your child knew from an early age is nobody really liked me. And then I wanted to have friends, but guess what?

[233] your kids have trouble making friends with kids their own age and what we end up doing as a society is saying hey you're going to go to school for 12 years and you're going to go to school every years with only with kids your own age who you naturally struggle to connect with because you tend to be more intellectually intellectually in tune with older kids with adults but socially and emotionally you get along better with younger kids and animals and so guess what else I start?

[234] to learn.

[235] School is hard and getting along with other kids my own age so I feel like a loser because I sit in the lunchroom cafeteria by myself.

[236] I don't get invited to birthday parties and sleepovers.

[237] Can you feel what starts to go on?

[238] And it feels like they're swimming upstream because schools and churches aren't made for strong -willed kids who have an agenda of their own and who are leaders and don't always follow the directions to ask questions all the time.

[239] And we're doing this phone consultation, and I see on, when I ask questions at the beginning before we start, I see, oh, the child has dyslexia.

[240] So I write in my notes, frustration.

[241] That's a frustrated kid because everything's hard.

[242] I know I'm a pretty bright kid because I understand quantum physics, but reading's hard, and everything is like five times harder, and it takes me longer.

[243] And my younger brother or sister is already ahead of me so now I start to feel stupid right and then what comes out is mom dad you only notice when I don't do things well you don't notice all the stuff I am doing well and it's like you're always trying to get me to do more and like you're never happy with me and so look when that's the case the relationship is broken and I want you to take stock of that because that will have a big impact see if you know what's going on inside of them you can heal the relationship because relationships change behavior.

[244] That's what we're after.

[245] That's when I, so I want you this week to work on.

[246] If you have younger kids especially, work on those three things I talked about at the beginning of the podcast.

[247] If you have an older child, I want you to begin to heal that relationship.

[248] If you need help with that, reach out to us.

[249] Email Casey, C -A -S -C -A -C -E -Y at Celebrate Calm .com.

[250] We will help you find the resources where we go deep, deep, deep into this.

[251] You can always look up.

[252] we've got a New Year's sale, we've got a No BS program on sale, and our phone calls and mentoring with me, if we can help you, that's what I want to do so you can reach into this heart, because once you understand them, and that's why, oh, the Strong World Child Program, I want you to get there, I want you to understand them, then you can motivate them, then you can discipline them and draw them closer.

[253] It's awesome.

[254] Hey, thank you for listening.

[255] You're a good parent.

[256] If we can help you, let us know.

[257] Bye, bye.