394 - Shut the House Down

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hartstark.

[3] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[4] That was really high.

[5] I know.

[6] I thought I'd put a lot of enthusiasm behind it.

[7] Are you excited?

[8] Is this your day?

[9] I'm so excited.

[10] This is my day.

[11] Actually, I got a new mattress.

[12] So today, so this might be like the rest of my fucking life has changed day.

[13] It's day one of new life.

[14] Yeah.

[15] Yeah.

[16] That's what happens when you get old.

[17] is like mattresses change your life and sneezing too hard hurts your back.

[18] So here I am.

[19] Is it one of those hospital mattresses that sit you up like you're in a full body cast?

[20] Is it one of those guys?

[21] I don't, I can't pull the trigger on those because it seems so ridiculous.

[22] That's like the right, but like.

[23] But you would if you could.

[24] Like if I could try it for a couple nights, I would.

[25] And then you could fix like a small television up to kind of the ceiling up near the top so you're always just you know your neck is always in a really good position upward can i tell you a secret about a thing about me that's like one of my things like i can't go barefoot in the house but also i can't do TVs in the bedroom it depresses the shit out of me oh that's very it's a it's like a deep thing i can't do i get it that's very holistic of you i'm sure it's much better for you not to have it in there and it's not like i don't think people should have it it's totally fine.

[26] It's like I can't have it.

[27] It'll like make me sad.

[28] Yep.

[29] It's the same thing with me when lamps are left on and they're so they're on in the daytime.

[30] Like when you wake up and you come downstairs and the lamps been left on and it's like dawn.

[31] Nobody shut the house down.

[32] That's bad vibes.

[33] Shut the house down.

[34] Nobody locked up and shut it down and you know made sure the dog had water.

[35] Nobody.

[36] Okay.

[37] Well, nobody.

[38] I don't like that.

[39] That's a good one.

[40] I can absolutely feel that one in my bones for sure like I get it usually an exception not a rule in our household but I think the first time it happened it was like when I had roommates in my 20s and of course it was in there completely unprocessed him not as like right don't that off like it was the weirdest reaction and then I let that on just like I'm gonna go walk around the block for a second just pure rage that someone didn't shut things what else didn't get taken care of when you went to It's like this isn't right.

[41] And there's a lot of households where they're like, oh, yeah, we used to do that sometimes because blah, blah, blah, you know, grandma needed a glass of water or whatever where it'd be like completely fine for other people.

[42] But it's like, no. I do it when Vince is out of town because if there's an intruder, I don't know.

[43] I want to give them light.

[44] I don't know.

[45] You want to give them pause in the doorway to be like, uh -oh, is someone reading a book late into the night?

[46] 3 .30 in the morning and that light's still on.

[47] That must be an awake household with a, you know, aggressive, scary dog.

[48] I'm not going to break into that house.

[49] So I'm going to skip that one.

[50] Yep.

[51] Good plan.

[52] Yeah.

[53] Thank you.

[54] What's going on with you?

[55] What is going on with me?

[56] You know, the euse, I think it's all the ush, but we were just complaining, Alejandro Aristotle and I, we were all just talking about how hot it was this weekend in Los Angeles And it was a humidity hot, which no one here understands or can deal with unless they're a transplant.

[57] Myself being a native California and I was just kind of like what I did not agree to walk into the shower.

[58] What's happening?

[59] Heavy air?

[60] Like who created heavy air?

[61] Heavy, like weird post shower bathroom air, which people on the East Coast were like, sure, that's summertime to us.

[62] And we're just like, what?

[63] No. It's like a steam shower, but outside.

[64] of your shower and it was like that all weekend long it was wild uh you have a twitter thing to talk about oh it's not really a thing but it was really nice of aaron whose handle on i guess what we call x but really we shouldn't be talking about it all is at emac d 33 it's hard to offboard these things that we've been addicted to for years at a time yeah but it was very nice of Aaron to write to me and say, perfect pronunciation of Chelmsford.

[65] Oh.

[66] I mean, the odds are so against that.

[67] Yeah.

[68] And the fact that Aaron knew to celebrate that tiny victory for me is really meant a lot.

[69] It's a win.

[70] It's a win.

[71] We got to take them anywhere we can because the odds of the fact that that was supposed to be a silent L and a silent fucking D or whatever, the tricks of the trade are.

[72] The tricks, the people who named our great nation play on us.

[73] I think that.

[74] That one was a British one.

[75] The tricks that the Brits play on us are wide and far -reaching.

[76] Very true.

[77] So true.

[78] How about you?

[79] Anything to report?

[80] I mean, not really.

[81] Like, I'm halfway between two books and I'm, you know, listening to therapy podcasts.

[82] Like nothing.

[83] Oh.

[84] You have a book?

[85] No, I have a podcast.

[86] Oh, but I think most people, this is one of those things and this is why I love TikTok so much.

[87] one of the many reasons.

[88] But the people on there are so ahead that they were talking about this podcast as if it's old news.

[89] And I'd never heard it before.

[90] And it is a podcast called Scamanda.

[91] Oh, yeah.

[92] It's huge, right?

[93] Oh, you've, you'd already heard of it?

[94] Well, it's like on the top lists everywhere.

[95] Oh, is it?

[96] What is it?

[97] Congratulations to the Scamanda people.

[98] Let me give you a little bit of information about it.

[99] I mean, it's got the word scam in it.

[100] So it's a Karen -centric thing immediately.

[101] It is.

[102] So it's hosted by, I'm assuming a British woman named Charlie Webster and it's from Lionsgate Sound and it is the story of a woman who for years and years scammed people out of money claiming that she had cancer.

[103] Oh, one of those.

[104] It seems simple on the face.

[105] What I find fascinating is just when people do stuff like that where it's like, The real bold moves, right?

[106] We know it is probably, odds are it's approaching some mental illness, right?

[107] Yeah.

[108] There's some sort of feed you're getting off of people feeling bad for you, you talking about your illness all the time, and blah, blah, blah.

[109] Well, it's Munchausen.

[110] It's like original Munchausen, not by proxy, right?

[111] Yeah, right, exactly.

[112] They're not making someone else sick, but they're also not actually sick.

[113] They're not making themselves sick.

[114] And they know that, yeah.

[115] And they're fundraising for them.

[116] themselves.

[117] So the whole thing is a true scam in the most cynical sense of the word.

[118] Yeah.

[119] But it is wild.

[120] I binged it so quickly.

[121] Wow.

[122] You already know that.

[123] Holy shit.

[124] Okay, I'll get into it for sure.

[125] Yeah.

[126] Yeah.

[127] I'm just listening to spooky, like spooky books, like haunted house books.

[128] Oh yeah.

[129] Right now.

[130] There's this author named Riley Sager who writes these like straight up haunted house books.

[131] The ones I'm listening to is called Home Before Dark.

[132] And it's like, you know, they're single.

[133] woman who's like parents wronged her and so she's going back to the house she grew up and that's like basically the Amityville like story that her dad wrote about the house and she doesn't believe it's just like she's like fuck around and finding out right now in the book you're like she's gonna find out we know she's gonna yeah i would hope in a book like that yeah it's not like the ending is going to be like and it wasn't haunted it's like and now i love my dad right right all right well should we get into it let's do it okay let's do it in exactly right corner shall we hey we have a podcast network called exactly right and here are some highlights so our new and first true crime limited series infamous international the pink panther story is now available wherever you listen to your podcasts so be sure to follow that show right now episodes one and two are up you might have heard about the heist at the waffy mall the pink panthers over the top theatrics and a bit of history behind their formative years in Serbia.

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[140] I didn't know that about you.

[141] I think Moonstruck's one of my favorite movies of all time.

[142] So that's a fucking special one.

[143] Moonstruck is one of the greatest movies.

[144] That's definitely in like a top five.

[145] I mean, they made some good fucking movies at the end of the 80s.

[146] They did.

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[172] All right.

[173] I go first this week and I have been waiting to be able to cover this story and tell you about it.

[174] And it just recently kind of resolved.

[175] And this story is, well, first of all, everyone knows about it.

[176] Anyone that listens to true crime or pays attention to true crime on a relatively regular basis has probably already listened to the Dateline podcast about this or watched the Dateline series on TV about it.

[177] But it's one of those true crime stories.

[178] that when it was breaking in the news, I kept going, what?

[179] How is this possible?

[180] What are you talking about?

[181] What do you mean?

[182] Like, every single little detail that would come out was more kind of frightening and chilling and outrageous than the next.

[183] So one of the main reasons I wanted to cover it was just the simplicity of saying it all at one time.

[184] Yeah.

[185] Because sometimes that's very satisfying where you're like, how did that happen?

[186] And it is kind of laid out in front of you.

[187] But again, like most of these stories, even when it's all laid out in front of you, you can't ever get to the truth of anything of like, but why?

[188] Totally.

[189] But why?

[190] What's it going to be?

[191] I'm like, I'm on the edge of my seat right now waiting to hear what it is.

[192] Okay.

[193] I've teed you up.

[194] So it's autumn of 2019 in Lake Charles, Louisiana.

[195] And Kay and Larry Woodcock are very, very worried.

[196] They haven't been able to contact their seven -year -old grants on JJ or his adopted sister, Tiley, for quite some time.

[197] Right?

[198] You know what it is.

[199] Shit.

[200] Yep.

[201] On top of that, their mother has been acting very erratic lately.

[202] So Larry and Kaye decide to contact the police in Rexburg, Idaho, where the family lives, to request a welfare check at their house.

[203] And when the police show up, JJ and Tiley aren't there, but their mother is, and she is ready to go with explanations.

[204] She tells the officers that Tiley's away at school and that J .J. is staying with a family friend named Melanie who lives in Arizona.

[205] So for a wellness check, that's kind of good news.

[206] well in this household.

[207] Except when police reach out to confirm this story with Melanie, Melanie tells the police JJ is not with her.

[208] So the police are concerned and officers return to that house the next day with a search warrant, but they're surprised to find now that no one is home.

[209] And when they start to investigate, they find that the children's mother has just boarded a flight to Hawaii with her new husband and JJ and Tiley are not with them.

[210] So as they try to piece this timeline of the children's whereabouts together, officers come up with an even more unsettling realization.

[211] And that is that no one has seen JJ or Tiley for two months.

[212] So now Rexberg police formally announced that both J .J. Valo and Tiley Ryan are missing and that their mother, Lori Vallow Daybell, and her husband, Chad Daybell, are the prime suspects in their disappearances.

[213] This is the story of what Dateline termed Mommy Doomsday, Lori Vallow Daybell.

[214] Damn.

[215] It's bad.

[216] It's so bad.

[217] It's so bad.

[218] It's the kind of thing because, of course, we talk about this sometimes where it's like when a mother does any kind of harm to their child and how disturbing that is to people.

[219] And so those stories always get a ton of heat.

[220] It's that kind of thing where it's like 89 % that's a guess, whatever, but it's some crazy high percentage of people who commit homicide are men.

[221] But with the percentage left over of women who do it, they fill the cable channels with women who snap and women who murder and mothers who do this and that.

[222] And it's because...

[223] Well, they do to their children.

[224] It's just so disturbing.

[225] To their children.

[226] So it's like, it's one thing to be a sociopath and be greedy and be like, oh, I'm going to rob you and kill you or whatever.

[227] And this also, there's other factors folded in that are kind of relevant for today and the things that we're seeing people go through today.

[228] So the sources used in today's research are a 2023 episode of the Dateline television show titled The Trial of Lori Vallow Daybell, which is an unbelievable thing you have to watch it.

[229] And also journalist Nate Eaton, who wrote for the East Idaho News, basically was the journalist.

[230] that was reporting on this, so there's lots of articles that he wrote.

[231] And the rest are in our show notes.

[232] So let's start at the beginning, 1973 in Loma Linda, California.

[233] The Cox family are tight -knit Mormon family with five kids, and their daughter, Lori, is a bubbly charming and happy, go -lucky kid.

[234] When she's in her teens, she's a high school cheerleader.

[235] And as she moves into adulthood, she becomes a competitor in regional beauty pageants.

[236] Eventually, she becomes a hairstylist.

[237] She moves to Texas.

[238] She remains devout to both her religion and she also really loves having fun.

[239] She actually at one point becomes a contestant on Wheel of Fortune and she wins $17 ,000.

[240] Holy shit.

[241] So her religious devotion doesn't mean that she's not up for a good time.

[242] Yeah.

[243] But Lori's love life hasn't been as positive as she has tried to be.

[244] By the time she's 32 years old, she's been married and divorced three times.

[245] Whoa.

[246] Yeah.

[247] She has a son named Colby from her second marriage and she has a daughter named Tiley from her third marriage.

[248] By all accounts, Lori's an excellent parent and loves being a mother.

[249] Lori's third marriage is ending in a hostile divorce, and that's when she meets her fourth husband, Charles Valo.

[250] Charles is a successful financial consultant, a divorced father of two boys, and he becomes one of Lori's clients at the salon.

[251] The second they meet, sparks fly.

[252] They quickly fall in love in Mary in February of 2006.

[253] And then Lori and Charles take their new blended family with their four kids, and they moved to Arizona.

[254] Charles was raised Catholic, but at his new wife's urging, he joins the Mormon church, and he becomes an enthusiastic member.

[255] So eight years go by, and the valos seem like a picture perfect family.

[256] And then in July of 2014, Lori and Charles reach out to Charles' sister Kay Woodcock, who is from the top of the story, first person.

[257] So that summer Kay and her husband Larry found themselves at a very difficult crossroads.

[258] They had been raising their autistic two -year -old grandson, JJ, by themselves.

[259] And they had been doing that since he was an infant.

[260] They adore him.

[261] But they realize because they're older, they might not be the best fit to raise him.

[262] And Kay would say, quote, that's when Charles called me and said, hey, Lori and I would love to adopt him.

[263] It was the easiest, hardest decision I've ever made, end quote.

[264] And then her husband Larry agrees saying he was our little boy, but we knew in the future it would be the best for JJ, end quote.

[265] And it does seem like the best choice for him.

[266] JJ thrives in the Valo household and he's absolutely adored by every one of the family members, especially his sister, Tiley.

[267] Larry says, quote, the family dynamic with those four children and with Charles and Lori, it just simply came to a circle with JJ and the center of it.

[268] It worked really well.

[269] Tiley, she loved J .J. There was no doubt about it.

[270] Every time I ever saw them together, he was drawn to her and she was very protective of him.

[271] She would hold him and kiss him.

[272] Tiley was an outstanding sister to J .J. Oh my God.

[273] And a look.

[274] So within a few years of JJ's coming to the family, things start to change.

[275] Lori is now in her mid -40s.

[276] She's always been extremely religious, and she's held some beliefs that some might consider fringe.

[277] But sometime around 2017, Lori becomes seriously interested in religious doomsday prepping.

[278] So if you've never heard of that, basically a doomsday prepper is a person who is actively preparing for the end of the world, usually because of religious interpretation of the Bible that says, like, the end is nigh, therefore we all have to start getting ready right so in october of 2018 lori attends a religious doomsday focused conference in utah with some of her friends girls trip can you imagine that's your girl's trip i mean the biggest drag of a girl's trip where it's like yeah you're just all sitting around a table at apple bees like who wants to get apps and talk about how we're not long for this world and hopefully the lord picks us.

[279] Everyone in here is going to burn.

[280] Like that's the mentality that never made sense to being raised as Catholic is essentially when you're in church, everyone that's not in church with you is going to burn.

[281] And I would just think about it.

[282] Yeah.

[283] And you're like celebrating that somehow.

[284] Like we want, we're winning and fuck everyone else, which doesn't sound like a, you know, Christian value of what I've heard of it.

[285] Well, the idea is it's not fuck everyone else.

[286] It's get out there and get some converts.

[287] Oh.

[288] It's basically convinced them this is real and true and then they will join us and then they'll be okay.

[289] Right now, Karen, convince me. Hey, Georgia, if you want to come to Catholic church with me, it's big and it's kind of echoy and this, it smells like incense and do I get a sit for a long, long time?

[290] Yep, but then you stand up, but then you sit and then you kneel and then you sit and then you stand.

[291] Wait, is it all in a language I don't understand completely.

[292] No, no, no. Don't be crazy.

[293] That was in the 70s.

[294] There's no Latin masses anymore, although my dad can tell you all about Latin mass because that's how he was raised.

[295] Oh, God.

[296] I mean, look, everybody gets to believe everything they want.

[297] But should they, is the question.

[298] But should they also think about who's telling you why you need to believe it and what their motivation could possibly be?

[299] Speaking of, like, question your sources.

[300] My mom sent me a text the other day that said, from Fox News, COVID booster warning from Florida.

[301] Florida Surgeon General, who advises people not to get the new vaccine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[302] And I'm like, check your source.

[303] When the CDC says that, I'll listen.

[304] But when the fucking Florida of all places, Surgeon General, hard pass.

[305] Well, you know, at the very end of that article, my sister was just telling me about this.

[306] She goes, at the end of the article, another doctor comes in and goes, not only is this not true, it'd be dangerous if you went ahead with this story.

[307] And then, of course, Fox News did.

[308] Yeah, well, she sent it to me and I said, no thanks.

[309] No friend.

[310] She got upset, yeah.

[311] Well, but at this point, does she want to be upset?

[312] Because that's what it feels like to me. Yeah, she said, I didn't realize that was news because she knows she can't share news with me. She thought it was like health information.

[313] This is going off the rails, but my point is check your fucking sources.

[314] I'm not getting my sources about COVID from Fox News and Florida.

[315] You know what I mean?

[316] At this point, you can't get your sources from, quote, unquote, enemy territory of people that have, like, completely thumbed their nose at a global pandemic that has killed millions of people.

[317] Right.

[318] Sorry, that was a left turn.

[319] No, that's right.

[320] All of this needs to be taken into consideration.

[321] Because no one, we all have beliefs and we all believe our beliefs are correct.

[322] We all do.

[323] That is the human condition.

[324] Viamently, and we'll fight them.

[325] Even though it's, like, clear when they're not right, we won't let them go.

[326] In my experience, as life goes on, if you can check yourself in some sort of way to go, do I believe this or do I just want to fight right now?

[327] It's a good question to ask.

[328] Do I want to be right?

[329] Totally.

[330] You know, they didn't do this in Dateline.

[331] So I wish we'd be a little more professional.

[332] No, there was no sidebar conversation.

[333] About my mom.

[334] So I basically told you about the girls weekend at the doomsday focused conference.

[335] outfits.

[336] So it's there that Lori meets 50 -year -old author Chad Daybell.

[337] So Chad is a church sexton and an occasional gravedigger who lives in Idaho with his wife, Tammy.

[338] Is this his hobby?

[339] No, like he volunteers at the church.

[340] To dig graves?

[341] Yeah, you have to, you know, it's probably part of the church situation.

[342] Sure, sure, sure.

[343] It's like you're inside doing the services and then every once in a while, you have to go out there and help out.

[344] Okay.

[345] Now I feel different.

[346] offensive for him.

[347] And he's absolutely the bad guy.

[348] Spoiler alert.

[349] Okay.

[350] So he lives in Idaho with his wife, Tammy, and she is the mother of their five adult children.

[351] He's also a religious writer and a staple at these Doomsday Prepper conferences.

[352] He is a lifelong member of the LDS Church, but he pushes the envelope when it comes to mainstream Mormon beliefs.

[353] For example, in his many self -published books, Chad talks about the coming apocon.

[354] lips and writes extensively about how multiple near -death experiences have given him divine powers.

[355] That's another thing I think we see a lot recurring, which is when regular people start to tell the people in their small circle of their already kind of fringe beliefs, that they have started talking to God.

[356] Yeah.

[357] Red flag.

[358] Yeah, if we're going to go through.

[359] So Lori and Chad are immediately drawn to one another.

[360] It's been described as an instant love at first sight type of connection.

[361] They wind up exchanging numbers.

[362] And once they get home to their families, they still talk to each other almost every single day.

[363] So as this relationship flourishes from afar with Lori still in Arizona, Chad in Idaho, the people around Lori noticed that she's becoming obsessive about the idea of a doomsday of demons and about the spirit world.

[364] So Lori's family starts worrying that she's getting maybe sucked into a cult because it's just odd and obsessive.

[365] Thanks to the later testimony of Lori's niece's ex -husband, a man named Brandon Boudreau, we know quite a bit about what exactly they were obsessed with.

[366] So apparently Chad and Lori believed that there were, quote, light and dark spirits among us who can infiltrate human bodies.

[367] And if a person becomes too dark, they turn into what they call zombies, which is, their shorthand for demonic possession.

[368] So to get rid of a zombie and free the possessed host, you have to kill the body of the afflicted person.

[369] Oh, my God.

[370] Imagine if someone just started casually dropping that shit, like someone you've known for a long time or your family is just like, by the way.

[371] Yeah.

[372] That's scary.

[373] No one's prepared for that conversation.

[374] Right.

[375] You don't have anything in your back pocket to be like, hey, can I stop you on the zombie theory?

[376] And then present something else to maybe consider like it's so wild that you're just what could you say yeah they're already gone especially if it's someone that if they've really worked on this theory or this is something that's been happening kind of behind closed doors then you're just like sorry what are you talking about a tv show like yeah bewildering in and of itself so so lorry starts taking advantage of her husband charles frequent business trips out of town while he's away lorry hosts get -togethers in her home where she's She and Chad share their beliefs with guests.

[377] So there is a little bit of occulty vibe starting, which is our beliefs.

[378] It's not going to be that many people.

[379] We're all going to get together and we're going to talk about this.

[380] And we're going to really give it some credence and some weight.

[381] The threat of demonic zombies, the end of the world, and the fact that Lori and Chad are on a higher plane of divinity than everyone else.

[382] Chad claiming to be a Mormon prophet, Lori claiming to be a goddess.

[383] Okay.

[384] Burning man over here.

[385] I mean, just imagine being invited to that and being like, no, no, I wasn't in that.

[386] I, what?

[387] You said what?

[388] This was Tupperware.

[389] Hey, I want to, I just want a game night.

[390] I came for the cubed Costco cheese platter.

[391] What's going on here?

[392] What is happening?

[393] So obviously, Lori and Charles once solid marriage is no longer doing well.

[394] The couple's friends notice them arguing a lot.

[395] Nothing Charles does seem.

[396] to make Lori happy.

[397] And Charles says that as their relationship gets worse, Lori is becoming more and more hostile and threatening.

[398] And finally, she accuses Charles of being dark -spirited and claims that he's been overtaken by a demon who, for whatever reason, is named Nick or Ned Schneider.

[399] How do you defend yourself from an accusation like that?

[400] You know what I mean?

[401] Yeah, it's basically a person looking at you and going, something's wrong with me. And now I'm going to yell it into your face.

[402] And so you have to like be accused of something while simultaneously being worried about a person.

[403] Charles actually texted some of his friends and wrote to them, quote, it's the freakyest thing I've ever experienced.

[404] So yeah, very scary.

[405] So we don't know if Lori genuinely believes that her husband is being taken over by dark spirits or if she's just using that as an excuse to justify the extramarital affair that she's having.

[406] But it's clear that she is getting very close to Chad Daybell.

[407] She even tells one of her friends that she and Chad have quote sealed themselves.

[408] Now in the Mormon church sealing yourself is a sacred binding of two people in the temple.

[409] You don't do it to yourselves.

[410] That's not like part of it.

[411] And they're definitely not allowed to be sealed if they are already married to other people.

[412] Yeah.

[413] But Lori tells her friend that she and Chad have already been married in a past life.

[414] So this is all above board again will bring back the Mormon faith does not believe in past lives so there's stuff really happening here yeah so now Charles comes home from another business trip to discover that lori has locked him out of the house he can tell no one's home he has no idea where she is or where his kids are he tries to call her she doesn't answer he calls the police they basically show up and let him inside of his own house and that's when Charles decides he's had enough with this increasingly disturbing behavior.

[415] He tells an officer, quote, Lori has lost her mind.

[416] She's threatened me. She said she was going to murder me. She thinks she's a resurrected being and a God.

[417] I'm as bewildered as you are and I don't know what to do.

[418] End quote.

[419] Scary.

[420] It's easy to assume that he got some like officers advice or something because Charles files a petition for an emergency mental evaluation for Lori.

[421] And so the next day, Lori goes to the place.

[422] And so the next day, police department herself and then she gives her side of the story she says charles claims are all baseless she says she left the house and took the kids because she wants nothing to do with him she claims charles is retaliating against her out of spite because their marriage is falling apart she voluntarily completes the mental evaluation and she's ultimately deemed to have a quote normal state of mind so charles for divorce.

[423] He's just like that I'm done either way.

[424] He leases an apartment.

[425] He sets up regular visitation times with JJ, who's now seven years old, and he tries to move on with his life.

[426] But he is still freaked out by Lori's fanatical behavior.

[427] And eventually Charles' lawyers encourage him to get an order of protection against her during their divorce process.

[428] He also removes Lori from his life insurance plan, which has a $1 million payout.

[429] And he changes that to his sister K. Woodcock, who is now the beneficiary.

[430] Lory is never informed about that change.

[431] Uh -oh.

[432] So now it's July of 2019.

[433] It's basically about eight or nine months since Lori and Chad met at the conference.

[434] And out of the blue one afternoon, Charles two adult sons get a disturbing text from Lori.

[435] And here's what it says.

[436] Quote, Hi, boys.

[437] I have very sad news.

[438] Your dad passed away yesterday morning.

[439] I'm working on making arrangements and I'll keep you informed with what's going on.

[440] I'm still not sure how to handle things.

[441] Just want you to know that I love you and so did your dad.

[442] What the fuck?

[443] She fucking texted them.

[444] The day after.

[445] So they're of course stunned.

[446] Yeah.

[447] They're just like, you've got to be kidding me. That's how they find out their dad is dead.

[448] They try to call and text Lori.

[449] She never responds.

[450] Shit.

[451] They eventually learn the details of their father's death by Googling it.

[452] Oh, my God.

[453] And it turns out he was shot to death by Lori Vallow's brother, Alex Cox.

[454] You have to listen, if you haven't listened to Mommy Doomsday, the Dateline podcast.

[455] You absolutely have to listen to it.

[456] Keith Morrison is the host and narrator.

[457] So that's great in and of itself.

[458] But it's as thoroughly reported on all of these kind of detail parts.

[459] There's so much to it, like the details of this kind of falling apart, including Alex Cox and his involvement in his sister's life, which seems very codependent and very unhealthy.

[460] But basically, what we know is that Lori and Alex, they both tell police similar stories.

[461] They claim that on July 11th, 2019, Charles swung by Lori's house to pick up JJS scheduled to take him to school.

[462] And at some point during this, Alex, who was staying at Lori's house, which is something he didn't normally do.

[463] He says he confronted Charles for allegedly abusing Lori.

[464] And just to be clear right up front, there is no proof or indication Charles was ever abusive towards Lori.

[465] Regardless, Alex says that a fight breaks out between the two of them.

[466] He claims Charles picks up a baseball bat and begins swinging it.

[467] So in response, Alex pulls out his gun and shoots Charles multiple times in self -defense.

[468] Oh, my God.

[469] The family is at home.

[470] J .J. and Tiley are at home.

[471] Lori is at home.

[472] Once this happens, Lori takes those kids and leaves the house.

[473] So this is clearly a horrifying and traumatic experience for everybody that was in that house when that happened.

[474] And should be said always that people respond to trauma in all different ways.

[475] So when Alex calls 911, he seems weirdly calm and unfazed.

[476] It's just very regular.

[477] Lori, on the other hand, is upbeat.

[478] She leaves the scene to drop JJ off at school.

[479] Yeah.

[480] She returns to the house with Tiley.

[481] And this is a scene that's caught on body cam that you can see in the Dateline TV special, which is in and of itself an amazing and incredibly thorough thing.

[482] So they have body cam footage of her.

[483] And she immediately says she's only lived in the house for three weeks, and she makes a joke about how this event.

[484] the shooting death of her estranged husband by her own brother will make her seem like a bad neighbor and then she says quote I'm like hey neighbor sorry oh my god so later we'll learn that just minutes after Charles was shot dead Lori took the kids through a Burger King drive through to get breakfast and later that same day after Charles' body has been taken away Lori throws a pool party at the house a big one with quote loud music and lots of people swimming.

[485] What the fuck?

[486] Yeah.

[487] Also, she never writes an obituary for Charles.

[488] She never plans a funeral for Charles.

[489] She ships his ashes to his family.

[490] And they hold a memorial service of their own for him.

[491] Those poor people.

[492] Oh, my God.

[493] Horrifying.

[494] Yeah.

[495] And then Lori refuses to let JJ attend his father's funeral.

[496] So Alex Cox is never criminally charged for Charles' death.

[497] The investigators seem to accept the self -defense claim, and that's it.

[498] But of course, over time, cracks will emerge in Lori and Alex's story.

[499] For starters, forensic experts will eventually question whether Charles ever held the bat that day, as there is no physical evidence found to support that he touched it.

[500] Do you think that they had the pool party to, like, get rid of any physical evidence that could have been there?

[501] Or just...

[502] Yeah, you mean, like, to cover everything up?

[503] Yeah.

[504] Or is it just crazy?

[505] It could be that.

[506] And it.

[507] it could be, you know, I'm having absolutely no idea what's going on with her mentally.

[508] So it could be, you know, she's a sociopath and there's no feelings whatsoever.

[509] It could be that she has been pulled into this kind of cult thinking of like everything's about to end.

[510] Nothing matters.

[511] Some people are these zombies, you know, you have to protect yourself from them, fear, fear, fear.

[512] And then like the denial, you know, she's freaking.

[513] out maybe inside so she's like party we have to have a party and like cover it up fine yeah yeah yeah and like kind of fill the empty space with like people and talking and noise totally and then also along with the with the other physical evidence the position of charles gunshot wounds suggest that the second shot was fired while he was already on the floor which is in direct conflict with alex's claim that he fired in self -defense while charles was charging at him with a bat so phone records eventually show Charles arrived at the house at 735 a .m. And Lori took the kids and left by 749.

[514] So 14 minutes.

[515] Lori and the kids were in the house when Charles was killed sometime between 735 and 749.

[516] But Alex didn't call 911 until 8 .36 a .m. over 45 minutes later.

[517] And even still, he tells the operator that Charles was shot just minutes ago.

[518] Hmm.

[519] We also will eventually learn that just hours after Charles' death, Chad Daybell, who still lives in Idaho, calls a local Arizona funeral home and asks for a price quote on cremating a body.

[520] And he used his own name when he made that phone call.

[521] What the fuck.

[522] It doesn't look great for, like, that there's some pre -planning going on or at least some discussion.

[523] Yeah.

[524] So days later, when Lori learns that she's no longer the beneficiary of Charles' million -dollar life insurance.

[525] plan.

[526] She texts Chad and tells him, quote, I talked to the insurance company.

[527] He changed it in March.

[528] So it was probably Ned before we got rid of him, end quote.

[529] Damn.

[530] So Lori actually uses the words got rid of him when talking about her now dead husband and the demon that they're accusing him of having.

[531] So now it's just weeks after Charles' death.

[532] Communication between Lori and Charles grieving family just stops.

[533] Kay and Larry Woodcock are extremely suspicious of the claim that Alex Cox killed Charles and self -defense, and they can't help but notice that Lori seems to be cutting their phone calls with JJ short.

[534] So they're trying to talk to him, make sure he's okay, and she's like rushing him off the phone.

[535] Yeah.

[536] Then a few weeks after that, Kay and Larry cannot reach their grandson at all.

[537] In early September 2019, less than two months after Charles' death, Lori suddenly moves Tiley and J .J. out of Arizona and into a townhouse in Rexburg, Idaho, close to Chad Daybell.

[538] He lives in nearby Salem with his wife, Tammy.

[539] Lori's brother, Alex Cox, also moves to Rexburg in the same housing complex as Lori.

[540] And then on September 8th, shortly after the family makes the big move, Alex, Lori, and the kids take a trip to Yellowstone National Park.

[541] Tiley just days shy of her 17th birthday poses for a picture.

[542] holding JJ, and that will be the last known photo of Tiley that's ever taken.

[543] And after this, essentially Tiley disappears.

[544] So thanks to GPS and phone records, we now know a few crucial things about what happened next.

[545] Records show that the family is back in Rexburg on September 9th, and that night, Alex Cox, was inside Lori's townhouse between 242 a .m. and 8 .49 a .m. And not long after that, around 9 a .m., Alex's phone pings at Chad Daybell's house.

[546] It's believed that Alex stays there until around noon.

[547] Coincidentally, at 1153 that morning, Chad texts his wife, Tammy, saying, well, I've had an interesting morning, spotted a big raccoon along the fence, hurried and got my gun, he was still walking along, got close enough that one shot did the trick.

[548] he is now in our pet cemetery fun times end quote oh that's bleak so if chad's wife tammy did happen to notice a fresh grave on their property then that text from her husband would explain it and basically keep it off of her mind right tammy is wholly unaware of her husband's affair she doesn't even know who lorry or her children are she would have no reason to doubt what her husband is telling her Meanwhile, Tiley's 17th birthday comes and goes, and she is nowhere to be found.

[549] Her friends and family are incredibly concerned, but when anyone asks Lori where her daughter is, she just has all different explanations.

[550] She tells one friend, Tiley has enrolled in classes at BYU, Idaho, and she's away on campus, which doesn't really make sense because Tiley isn't quite college -aged yet.

[551] But it does seem to work, I'm sure, because it sounds like, school and planning and kind of like, oh, she's off doing school stuff.

[552] Yeah.

[553] Around the same time as that, Lori starts telling people in her inner circle that JJ is a zombie.

[554] Oh, dear.

[555] One friend would later say, quote, Lori was obsessed with talking about it to the point where she was saying, look how he's behaving.

[556] Look how hyper he is here.

[557] She was planting ideas to show me that she believed he was a zombie.

[558] But to my mind, he looked like typical JJ.

[559] What the fuck do you do with that information if you're the friend?

[560] It's so sinister, and I'm sure the average person, if she's talking, that's a person in her inner circle.

[561] So she's just giving her the story that she wants to give her.

[562] That's a person who's already accepted that thinking.

[563] Right.

[564] Like that concept is okay with me. Now you're talking about it's your own child.

[565] Right.

[566] If this is your belief system, it's your belief system.

[567] Yeah.

[568] But where are the limits within that?

[569] Are there any?

[570] Yeah.

[571] Yeah.

[572] So then on September 22nd, at some point between nine people, and midnight, Alex Cox is seen walking into Lori's house with JJ, who's asleep in his arms, and this is the last time anyone sees JJ.

[573] So later, police will look at Alex Cox's phone records from around this time, and the data they find places Alex on Chad Daybell's property at 9 .59 the following morning mere hours after JJ is last seen at Lori's house.

[574] So now it's late September 2019.

[575] It hasn't even been a year since Lori and Chad Daybell met at that conference.

[576] Yet in the past three months alone, Lori's husband Charles has been shot dead by her brother and her two children, Tiley and JJ, are suddenly missing.

[577] And meanwhile, Chad is still married to his wife of nearly 30 years, Tammy.

[578] Everything seems fine with them on the surface.

[579] Until Chad starts sharing a disturbing prophecy with his friends.

[580] He claims to have a vision that Tammy is going to die before he.

[581] her 50th birthday.

[582] And that's less than a year away.

[583] So on October 9th, 2019, Tammy Daybell has a frightening encounter with a strange man in a ski mask.

[584] As she's unloading groceries from her car, he approaches her while holding what Tammy thinks is a paintball gun.

[585] She'll later post about the encounter on Facebook saying, he shot at me several times, although I didn't think it was loaded.

[586] I was about to smack him with my freezer meals when I decided to yell for Chad instead, end quote.

[587] So the daybell's call 9 -1 -1, but at that point, the gunman is long gone.

[588] It's now believed that this man was Alex Cox, and he was trying to shoot a real gun at Tammy, but it jammed.

[589] At the time, police write off this encounter as a prank.

[590] Ten days later, another 911 call is placed from the day -bell residence.

[591] This time it's Chad.

[592] He tells the dispatcher Tammy has died in her sleep.

[593] Oh, my God.

[594] So this is an absolute shock.

[595] Tammy Daybell is a school librarian.

[596] She is an avid runner.

[597] She's a sharp woman.

[598] She's only 49 years old.

[599] Chad immediately declines an autopsy and hastily schedules Tammy's funeral just three days later.

[600] You can just decline an autopsy if a healthy person dies.

[601] I guess so if there's no suspicion, if there's no reason to be suspicious.

[602] But wouldn't you want to know what happened?

[603] Wouldn't you want the full story?

[604] Definitely.

[605] So her funeral is so rushed that some of her own family members can't make it for the service, and she's immediately buried.

[606] Less than two weeks after that, Chad and Lori run off to Hawaii to get married.

[607] Less than two weeks after his wife dies in her sleep.

[608] Fucking weeks.

[609] They take pictures of themselves smiling and white outfits, wearing matching lays and dancing on the beach.

[610] Horrifying.

[611] Back on the mainland, the Woodcocks have called the police.

[612] and requested the welfare check on J .J. and Tiley.

[613] So this is where we're coming back around to where we started.

[614] So the police have just publicly declared J .J. and Tiley missing.

[615] And they find out that Lori and Chad have gone back to Hawaii after having been married there just weeks before.

[616] So they get married.

[617] I believe it was the end of September.

[618] And this is, they were basically just there.

[619] It's like six or eight weeks later.

[620] So Rexberg detectives start turning up the heat on these newlyweds.

[621] They want Lori to prove that her children are safe and they tell her all she needs to do is bring Tiley and JJ by the police station and show them that they're okay.

[622] Lori doesn't do it.

[623] She doesn't show up.

[624] She ignores that request.

[625] And then around this time, yet another shocking death takes place.

[626] On December 12th, 2019, just weeks after Lori and Chad get married, Alex Cox is found dead.

[627] Oh, shit.

[628] There's tons of initial suspicion around his death.

[629] It's eventually determined that he died of natural causes, although it's reported that he did have Narcan in his system when he died, which is the drug you take when you overdose on, I think, opioids.

[630] Okay.

[631] Yeah.

[632] So now the FBI has joined the Rexberg police in the search for Tiley and JJ.

[633] and at the same time Kay and Larry Woodcock have announced a $20 ,000 reward for the children's safe return.

[634] So pretty soon this case breaks in the news.

[635] It's covered all over the world.

[636] Strangers from everywhere are anxiously waiting to hear what happened to Tiley and JJ and where their mother is.

[637] Like what the explanation possibly could be, like what is actually going on.

[638] I remember it being like this.

[639] Like there's no way they can come up with a simple explanation.

[640] Like there's nothing here that's just like simple at this point.

[641] So what kind of fuckery is it going to be?

[642] Because it was clearly going to be some kind of fuckery going on.

[643] It wasn't going to be anybody's going to come back and say, oh, it's this misunderstanding.

[644] And don't worry.

[645] You don't have to worry about us.

[646] There's impossible.

[647] Also, those two children and their faces being on the news every single night.

[648] It's like, I feel like I'll always know what they look like.

[649] Little angel faces.

[650] But also just that like, how can this be a question mark?

[651] Yeah.

[652] How can it just be a month's long question mark?

[653] Slowly it breaks that they're in Hawaii and they're just kind of not answering questions, which that's when you just go, my very cynical true crime follower side goes, this is the worst news of all.

[654] Myself as like an auntie was like, if my sister wasn't telling me where the fuck my nephews were and I hadn't seen them in months or heard about.

[655] And then going on, I'd be fucking losing my mind.

[656] And it just would be like, what a horrible, horrible experience.

[657] Yeah.

[658] Not that my sister would do that.

[659] She's a great fucking mom.

[660] No, she's, Lee is a badass and she's great.

[661] Yeah.

[662] But no, it's just that it's such an unimaginable position.

[663] Yeah.

[664] It's just unimaginable.

[665] It doesn't make sense.

[666] And the idea that the people who knew Lori Vallow and that talk to her that were slowly, listening to her talk about the end of the world and slowly listening to her talk about all this other stuff, they must have been scared to death.

[667] Yeah, yeah.

[668] So on January 25th, with both children still missing, police finally tracked down Lori and Chad in Hawaii sitting poolside in their swimsuits.

[669] They serve them a court order requiring Lori to present both Tiley and JJ to authorities within five days.

[670] And on January 30th, which was five days later, that court order deadline rolls around.

[671] but Lori does not show up.

[672] She's still in Hawaii.

[673] It was a court order for the mainland.

[674] Soon after that, Lori is arrested on multiple charges, including two counts of felony desertion of a child.

[675] She is held on $5 million bail.

[676] On February 29, Chad, who can't pay that bail, winds up returning to Rexburg without his new wife.

[677] Things aren't looking great for him either.

[678] Because as detectives continue investigating the children's disappearances, they get a search warrant for Chad's property in Salem.

[679] And as everyone holds their breath and waits to see what the results of this search warrant are, we all find out that human remains are found buried in the yard at Chad Daybell's property.

[680] And then it's soon confirmed that these remains do in fact belong to 16 -year -old Tiley Ryan and 7 -year -old JJ Valo.

[681] So, Chad Daybill is promptly arrested and sent to jail.

[682] Meanwhile, the police are now taking a much closer look at Tammy Daybell's mysterious death.

[683] Thank God.

[684] They soon find incriminating texts between Lori and Chad, including one message that describes Tammy as being, quote, possessed by a spirit.

[685] Dude.

[686] A chilling parallel to the Ned Schneider text messages Lori sent about Charles ahead of his untimely death.

[687] so they exhumed Tammy Daybell's body an autopsy is finally performed the pathologist concludes that Tammy Daybell was in fact murdered her cause of death was exfixiation and as detectives continue investigating they learn that phone records once again place Alex Cox near the Daybell's neighborhood on the night that Tammy died so the picture that's coming into focus is a nightmare marriage murder spree.

[688] That's like a brother murder for higher spree.

[689] Of children.

[690] These two people.

[691] Of children, of loved ones.

[692] Innocent fucking loved ones.

[693] So by late May 2021, there are already a slew of charges brought against both Lori and Chad Daybell and now new charges are introduced.

[694] Lori and Chad are both charged with first degree murder for Tiley and JJ's deaths.

[695] Chad is charged with first degree murder.

[696] agreed murder for Tammy's death and Lori is charged with conspiracy to commit murder for Tammy's death.

[697] Both Lori and Chad plead not guilty to all charges.

[698] The couple is tried separately and Lori's case goes to court first.

[699] Her trial begins this past April of 2023.

[700] Damn.

[701] So just like six, I can't count six months ago, something like that.

[702] Yeah, it's September.

[703] April, May, June, July, August, September.

[704] Yes, six months.

[705] Nice one.

[706] Thank you.

[707] So right off the bat, of course, It's a complete media circus.

[708] Cameras are banned from the courtroom, but for some reason, audio recordings are permitted.

[709] So people are actually live streaming.

[710] Like anyone can audio record, essentially.

[711] I'm not sure, but basically it's being live streamed, and then citizen sleuths are just listening and trying to put together theories on like trying to piece this thing together and just analyzing all of these wild details.

[712] Journalist Nate Eaton of the East Idaho News says, quote, there were people from everywhere, Australia, South Africa, all of the states.

[713] You had to get a ticket, and those tickets were gone every day within one minute.

[714] It was like a Taylor Swift concert.

[715] Damn.

[716] So now the doomsday mom headlines start to dominate this case.

[717] Prosecutors argue that Lori's trial is not just about religious zealotry, though.

[718] It's also about money, power, and sex.

[719] the jury learns that Lori continued to collect her kids social security benefits after they were missing.

[720] And in addition to Lori trying to cash in on Charles' life insurance, it's revealed that just two days after Tammy Daybell passed away, Chad contacted her school district and asked about an insurance payout.

[721] Dateline reported that, quote, in all the history of the district, they had never had somebody come in so quick to find out how to claim life insurance money.

[722] See, I was wondering that when you said that, like, what is a normal amount of time?

[723] Because there is like people who don't have money to cover the funeral or, you know, pay rent next month.

[724] Right.

[725] So they need the life insurance, but I guess it's all circumstantial evidence.

[726] Well, I think it's also, imagine getting the real news of someone like your husband being dead and then how quickly you would start doing that kind of business like how you'd even be able to think yeah within a week or two's time like oftentimes that's other people other family members and it would just kind of be like a different story and a different setup i mean who knows maybe some people sit down and they've completely repressed every feeling and they're like i have to take care of business but i think it's really saying something that they're like in the history of this school district no one's ever called that fast.

[727] That's what I like to hear is like the details of like what really happens.

[728] So prosecutors say that Lori used her small cult like group to exercise power over other people, including her brother Alex Cox.

[729] They argue that Alex was all in on Lori and Chad's religious ideas and that he was essentially manipulated into doing anything, even murder for his quote, goddess sister.

[730] But because Alex is dead, we will not.

[731] never know his true motives or beliefs.

[732] It's all conjecture.

[733] Right.

[734] So in Lori's trial, prosecutors focus on the idea that Lori was infatuated with Chad Daybell and wanted to get rid of any obstacle that might keep them apart, including her own family members.

[735] There was so much damning testimony and evidence from wedding rings purchased while Tammy was still alive to Chad introducing Lori to his neighbors as a grieving mother weeks before her children were declared.

[736] missing.

[737] I mean, just every detail is worse than the last.

[738] But the most disturbing heart -wrenching revelations from the trial are all about Tiley and JJ.

[739] Police officers give testimony that's heartbreaking and horrific describing how they found their remains.

[740] Everyone in the courtroom saw photos from the crime scene and JJ's autopsy because it's all evidence, which is really something to consider people are being looky -lose or people are like, oh no, I want to see how this all plays out.

[741] And it's like with something like that, I really wonder how many of those people were like, this was a terrible idea.

[742] Right.

[743] This is not anything I actually wanted to have to come face to face with the reality of it.

[744] Well, I also wonder about the jurors who are forced to see that stuff.

[745] And like we don't offer any PTSD counseling post like traumatic trials like that.

[746] It's just like, now go home and go on your way after seeing the fucking worst of the worst you know yeah that's right that's right so of course there's a big emotional reaction throughout the courtroom lorry begins to cry she asks to leave the judge denies her request and apparently you can hear larry woodcock weeping in the courtroom as like those things are shown oh jesus it's just horrifying for everybody.

[747] Finally, the prosecution rests its case and all eyes are now on Lori Vallow's defense team.

[748] Most people expect her lawyers to argue something like there's no concrete proof that she herself, as opposed to Alex or Chad, carry out these killings.

[749] But to everyone's total shock, Lori's attorney stands up and simply says, quote, we do not believe the prosecution has proven this case and we rest our case.

[750] Whoa.

[751] Nothing.

[752] No defense.

[753] That's it.

[754] Yeah.

[755] They don't mount to defense.

[756] Lori does not testify.

[757] They don't call witnesses.

[758] They don't present any evidence at all.

[759] What the fuck?

[760] And later during closing arguments, Lori's lawyer places all the blame on Chad Daybell.

[761] And he says, quote, why can't people escape religious leaders?

[762] Why can't Lori escape and get back to her good mom life?

[763] Is Lori a leader or a follower of Chad?

[764] So she so wants to be a leader, but she's not leading anyone.

[765] She's following Chad.

[766] She thinks Chad is following.

[767] following Jesus, but he is not.

[768] So why didn't they call anyone to, like, testify about how enamored she was with him?

[769] And, you know what I mean?

[770] Like, because there wasn't anyone to fucking do that.

[771] Right.

[772] Because that probably wouldn't have been the story.

[773] But still, what a bold move.

[774] No case.

[775] Our case is no case.

[776] I'm, I was shocked when I read that part.

[777] I was shocked.

[778] The jury deliberates for seven hours and then they come back with a verdict.

[779] Lori Valo -Daybell is found guilty on both counts of first -degree murder.

[780] conspiracy to commit murder, and a grand theft charge for taking her children's social security benefits.

[781] She is sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[782] After the trial, Kay and Larry Woodcock stand outside of the courtroom speaking to the media.

[783] Larry tells reporters, quote, JJ, I love you.

[784] Tiley, I love you.

[785] Tammy, I'm sorry for what happened to you.

[786] My heart hurts.

[787] My heart hurts for these three.

[788] This is what this has all been about from the very get -go.

[789] started with two children missing and I stood up and I said, where are the children?

[790] Where are the children?

[791] Horrible.

[792] So Lori Valo very recently appealed her convictions citing procedural issues that ranged from her trial jury selection process to the judge's declaration that Lori was mentally fit for trial.

[793] It's unclear what will become of her appeal.

[794] Meanwhile, authorities in Arizona have now indicted Lori on additional charges related to the murder of her third husband, Charles Valo.

[795] good.

[796] It's unclear when these will go to court.

[797] Chad Daybill's trial is set for April of 2024.

[798] And that is the story, the dateline, and I think a bunch of other media outlets called Mommy Doomsday, Lori Vallow, and the tragic deaths of 16 -year -old Tiley Ryan, seven -year -old J .J. Valo, 49 -year -old Tammy Daybell, and 62 -year -old Charles Valo.

[799] Wow.

[800] Great job covering that.

[801] Thank you.

[802] watch those Dateline episodes and it's rough, I mean, horrifying.

[803] Just evil fucking people.

[804] Evil people and also just under this concept of like, okay, here's our belief system.

[805] Now we're going to go dig inside of that and go to like an even rarer belief system that have many less people that get to have a say in what we're doing and saying.

[806] And it's like once your beliefs only include like 12.

[807] people in your living room, there's a problem.

[808] Yeah.

[809] And to happen so fast, too, within only, I mean, less than a year, that shit should take 10 fucking years, you know, to, like, indoctrinate people and to slowly, it's like they were, they were primed and, like, wanting to have these beliefs because they happen so fast.

[810] Yes.

[811] It happened so fast.

[812] And then they murdered so many people.

[813] Totally.

[814] But, like, close to them people.

[815] Yes.

[816] I mean, it high.

[817] hired, like hired a family member to murder them.

[818] And just by percentages, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Alex Cox also could have been murdered since he's the only person that would have known, like, the true details and all the worst parts.

[819] Just going to say, why do you think they murdered Alex Cox?

[820] Because clearly they did.

[821] Right.

[822] So what was their reason behind that?

[823] Like, was he like the children?

[824] It was too much.

[825] It seemed like he was involved with that part.

[826] so I don't know but it's like how are they saying he died of natural causes like there's no way it's it's just unprovable it's all that stuff where it's like it doesn't mean the truth has been found out it's just that they're saying there are limits to what we can find out right right it's all alleged until it's not so crazy just one of the craziest stories it's almost unsatisfying actually to see it all on paper because I thought it's like I thought there would be an explanation of how they could do it or something.

[827] Well, you almost like want her to be brainwashed because it's an explanation that at least we can like try to understand.

[828] But it was such a short time and everything happens so quickly.

[829] It seems like she was 100 % on board with what was going on.

[830] I mean, just who knows.

[831] God damn.

[832] Yeah.

[833] It's been an hour and 12.

[834] My story's really long.

[835] Should we do a two -parter?

[836] I think so.

[837] I'm sorry.

[838] No, the whole time I was like, cool.

[839] I don't have to go.

[840] You're like, bye.

[841] Yeah.

[842] Well, I mean, it was great.

[843] I was like on the edge of my pants the whole time.

[844] And wow, what a fucked up story.

[845] So bad.

[846] You think you want to know.

[847] I'm one of those people.

[848] I thought I wanted to know.

[849] This is what it always happens.

[850] Then you know and you're like, damn.

[851] But you don't know anything.

[852] Like, it's like a cold case where it's like I still don't understand.

[853] I still don't understand.

[854] understand humanity and why and what's going on and how all the things how much is denial how much is just a total lack of i mean yeah humanity is the right word all right well i'll go next week i have a long one it's a good one i think you're going to like it perfection i love it yeah all right well thanks for listening everybody thanks for being here with us we really appreciate when you join us on this little You guys are the best.

[855] Thank you.

[856] Stay sexy.

[857] And don't get murdered.

[858] Goodbye.

[859] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[860] This has been an exactly right production.

[861] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[862] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[863] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[864] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachey.

[865] Our researchers are Marin McClashin and Ali Elkin.

[866] Email your hometowns to my favorite murder at Gmail.

[867] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[868] Goodbye.

[869] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

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