Tony Hale

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dax Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[3] Hello.

[4] Our guest today is a two -time primetime Emmy award winner.

[5] Not just a nominee.

[6] We get a lot of nominees coming through here.

[7] I like winners.

[8] You like winners, even though you're a nominee and we celebrate that.

[9] I'm also a winner.

[10] You're also a winner.

[11] You're a state champion.

[12] Tony Hale, Tony Hale, Tony Hale.

[13] He should be a 300 billionth time winner.

[14] He's the best.

[15] He is.

[16] He is so dang good.

[17] Now, this is, I didn't get to bring him.

[18] up in the interview, but you know a movie we watch nonstop that's playing in the car for on a road trip is the chipmunks.

[19] And he's so funny.

[20] He gets Kristen and I through the entire movie.

[21] He was in a rest of development.

[22] Toy Story 4.

[23] Veep as Gary, my goodness, that's where he's won those Emmys.

[24] He's incredibly funny.

[25] Archibald's next big thing, which is a children book and a Netflix series.

[26] Also, he'll be in a new play called Wakey Wakey at the ACT Geary Theater in San Francisco starting in January 2020, so go watch him there.

[27] He's a beautiful person.

[28] Just couldn't have been nicer.

[29] You want to hold him and absorb his niceness.

[30] Please enjoy Tony Hale.

[31] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[32] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[33] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[34] Are you on Facebook?

[35] I am.

[36] What kind of activity do you do on there?

[37] I don't do a lot of activity.

[38] I like to watch funny videos that people post, all those kind of soldiers coming home videos or something like that.

[39] I love those.

[40] Wedding proposals?

[41] Just like any kind of compilation video.

[42] I don't really post a like.

[43] And I took Instagram and Twitter off my Facebook.

[44] phone.

[45] I didn't remove my accounts, but I took it off because it was too distracting.

[46] Uh -huh.

[47] But something about Facebook I can handle.

[48] It's nice to look through Facebook, but for some reason, Instagram just makes me feel bad.

[49] Oh, interesting.

[50] I look it on my wife's phone.

[51] I can get it on my wife's phone, but on my phone, it's just, I'll post something and then just want to immediately know the reaction.

[52] The reaction.

[53] For sure.

[54] And then you can find myself just returning back to that I'd say most people who have been acting for a while and been on shows for a while everyone seems to come to the same conclusion right which is just you just can't read that stuff or you'll go bananas I don't have that willpower though To not read it To not read it So my wife genuinely has a code That I can't download it on my phone Oh okay And this is probably just my own weakness I just it's hard to not read it Yeah And see people's reactions Yeah.

[55] I don't know about you, but I'm deeply interested in myself.

[56] I think about myself all day long.

[57] Sure.

[58] Sure.

[59] And even as things around me that really have, if I see a car fire and I think like, oh, now I've got to decide whether I'm going to get in there and help this person.

[60] You know, it immediately goes through my selfish, egocentric filter.

[61] Yeah.

[62] I get that.

[63] I mean, I do that with, I do that.

[64] I'll have a conversation when someone I walk away and then have a full conversation in my head.

[65] as to what I think they're thinking about me. Uh -huh.

[66] Yes, yeah.

[67] You know, I'll create a whole narrative in my head as to what they're thinking.

[68] Yeah.

[69] I have control over their thoughts.

[70] Is it generally positive or negative?

[71] If I'm honest, it's probably both.

[72] Okay, good.

[73] You know, you can walk away and be like, you know, if I think it went well, like hearing them say, wow, he's a really nice guy.

[74] Uh -huh.

[75] Just like gross stuff like that, trying to kind of, I don't know, self -love yourself.

[76] You know, that doesn't make any sense.

[77] Well, it's good.

[78] It's better to walk away and feel like that than like, oh, everyone hates me. Yeah.

[79] That's probably accurate that they think you're a nice guy.

[80] Maybe.

[81] But it's that thing of like why I can't just walk away and just leave it.

[82] Or if I think something went kind of off, then it's like those narratives can just cycle of just what you.

[83] I'm sure you've had it where you're a direct.

[84] Maybe you think you didn't do write something with a director.

[85] Uh -huh.

[86] And then you think what the director is thinking for the right.

[87] rest of the day.

[88] Oh, sure.

[89] It's very narcissistic to think that they're thinking of you the whole time.

[90] Yeah.

[91] Well, my two reactions are they're both grandiose.

[92] So either the person I met thinks I'm the worst person they've ever met in their life.

[93] And then I think about that for a while.

[94] And then I also connect dots, how they think I messed, I screwed them over some way that is impossible.

[95] Right.

[96] Or conversely, I'm like, they're thinking right now that might be one the top five most interesting people I've ever met.

[97] There's no middle ground.

[98] I don't think I ever approach reality.

[99] It's one of two extremes.

[100] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[101] It's very easy to live in those extremes.

[102] Yeah, it is.

[103] Because I guess they're kind of, they, like, fit in nicely to just story in general, which we're all really drawn to, right?

[104] So I guess we basically make ourselves either the antagonists or the protagonist in whatever exchange just happened.

[105] It just, we start spinning something fantastical.

[106] Those narratives, I just, it would be nice to not live in the what -if or all the time.

[107] Uh -huh.

[108] I was with this therapist once who said that whenever you find yourself living in the what -if, you say not now out loud.

[109] And so I would just walk around and just say, not now.

[110] Right now, I'm talking to Monica and Dax.

[111] That's where I am right now.

[112] You know, feel my pants, like scround yourself, all that kind of stuff.

[113] Get present.

[114] Yeah, which is hard for me. Now, have you ever concocted a theory on what's happened or how someone feels about you and then confronted them about it or brought it up to them?

[115] there was one time i won't say the name but there was a time when years ago there was a celebrity that i said something kind of what i felt is very awkward to and of course any time their name comes up that's all i can think about of what i said awkwardly to them and then i remember it was some award show or some event and i went up to them and i genuinely was like hey i just want to i just want to apologize for what i said and they were just like i don't even remember remember.

[116] But it's amazing the train that I have been writing on for the past, you know, however long about this one statement.

[117] Well, you know, in sobriety, you have to make amends to the people you've wronged or you're supposed to at least.

[118] And I can't tell you how many of them I've been like totally fearing and putting off.

[119] And then I finally call the person and I say, you know, that time I did blank.

[120] And they're like, most often they're like, either they don't remember or they're like, oh yeah what i don't know everyone was doing fucked up shit that's fine you know it's rarely is the response like well it's about god damn time you call you know i've been waiting for this call which is what you imagine oh oh yeah that they're at home constantly thinking about how i wrong them yeah what a terrible piece of shit i am isn't and also in recovery there's something like you have to be careful in the sense that it can cause damage if you make try to make an amends but You know that those situations where you know, well, that's not one to pursue.

[121] Yeah, the phrase is, unless to do so would cause those harm.

[122] Right, that's right.

[123] So, yeah, there's been a couple that I've had to.

[124] By the way, I've not been on the right side of it a couple of times.

[125] Like, I've done one or two or I was like, I don't think that person feels better now post -apology.

[126] Yeah, so it was more motivated out of your own kind of wanting to get off your chest rather than thinking of them.

[127] Yeah, and just be, well, because you're always, I think you're maybe, I'm juggling, I don't know, especially in relationships, right?

[128] you're kind of juggling a couple things.

[129] Like, I may want to call an ex -girlfriend and go, you know, maybe I made her feel crazy.

[130] And I need to own all the gross things about me. My obsession with status and validation from people above me and all this stuff.

[131] So I'm like trying to own my darkness, but then maybe afterwards gone, oh, maybe that felt to them like I was saying, I didn't even like you.

[132] It was just because you were.

[133] So maybe there it's gotten sticky, but never like, you know, hey, I need to apologize.

[134] to you, Mike, I slept with your wife of 22 years.

[135] You know, now you...

[136] Now you guys can go deal with that record.

[137] Yeah, yeah.

[138] Dropped on your lap.

[139] I really appreciate your guy's honesty.

[140] I mean, I really love your honest.

[141] Just even saying like the validation of those above you and status and stuff like that.

[142] It's hard to admit.

[143] It's so gross.

[144] Well, but it's...

[145] Everybody has it.

[146] Like, it's just a real gift that you give to people because you, when you say it, it resonates with everybody.

[147] spirit.

[148] Oh, thank you.

[149] I wonder if you can relate to this.

[150] I know, I won't ask you to admit this.

[151] I promise you, I can.

[152] Okay, okay.

[153] For years, well, again, this is also a twofold thing.

[154] For years, I've been like, I'm terrible at names.

[155] I'm so bad at names.

[156] I really have to put in some real energy to remember names.

[157] Faces or?

[158] Not faces and not people's stories.

[159] Like, I could talk to someone on a bus and they tell me their story.

[160] I'm pretty much remember their story.

[161] I just will never, their name I have a hard time with.

[162] So I've been working with that narrative that I'm bad with names.

[163] And it did hit me one day on like parenthood.

[164] I was like, hmm, I know all my boss's names.

[165] I've never forgot the director's name.

[166] I know the producers above us that are somewhere in it at the network.

[167] Oh, this is somehow status related.

[168] Does that, oh, yeah.

[169] Have you had experiences like that?

[170] I can totally resonate with that.

[171] The other side of it for me is I'm just not listening.

[172] Yeah.

[173] Like someone might be talking to me and I'm not, for whatever reason, I'm not present or I'm checked out somewhere else and I'm just not even obviously caring about what their name is.

[174] I really think that exercise of repeating their name back a few times does click in.

[175] I don't do that.

[176] And I think many times if I, you know, we're in a lot of social situations in this business and if it's something that I don't want to be in or I feel anxious or distracted, I don't.

[177] I'm just not really present and listening.

[178] Right.

[179] But I seem like I am, which is really unfortunate.

[180] But don't you think what happens in those interactions often is when you're introducing yourself, when the introduction is happening, they're saying their name.

[181] But while they're saying their name, you're thinking about what you're going to say next.

[182] So you kind of miss the name.

[183] This happens to me all the time.

[184] I miss the name.

[185] And then I'm like, well, I can't ask her to repeat it or ask him to repeat it because he just said it.

[186] Yeah.

[187] So then I just never know the name.

[188] And I'll even take that a step further.

[189] Have you ever been thinking about something to ask them that they're actually saying while they're saying while they're talking to you?

[190] So they're giving me the facts.

[191] And I'm not listening to my question.

[192] And I'm saying, oh, well, so where do you live?

[193] Oh, I was talking about it in Santa Monica.

[194] Yes.

[195] You know.

[196] There's a camera operator on Parenthood, Skipio Africano.

[197] Oh, wow.

[198] Have you ever worked with him?

[199] No, but I've got that name.

[200] Arthur, Skipio, Africano.

[201] Oh.

[202] Does everybody call him by his full name?

[203] name?

[204] Quite often.

[205] Arthur or the full thing, because it's so great.

[206] But what he would do, because you know, camera operators probably more than anyone need to know everyone's name, particularly like the stand -ins, because they're going to ask the stand -ins to move to this, mark, or that, and then all the guest actors that are there that day.

[207] So his trick was he hung out by craft services in the morning, and he stood by, like, the coffee.

[208] And as the new person would step up, he'd introduce himself, they'd introduce themselves.

[209] And then he would say, oh, Sharon, could you hand me a creamer?

[210] Because he read, if you have a need for, from somebody, you will never forget their name.

[211] So he creates an artificial need.

[212] Wow.

[213] At the craft service all morning long and then he's got everyone's name.

[214] Cut to me, going up with someone, Nancy, do you like me?

[215] Just fitting all my emotional needs.

[216] Are you happy with what I just said, Bob?

[217] I wonder you were born in West Point, New York.

[218] Yeah.

[219] But how much time did you spend in the South?

[220] Because I feel like that's in the mix.

[221] You grew up in Tallahassee?

[222] Yeah, my dad taught nuclear physics at West Point.

[223] I read that.

[224] And I was born there, but I was only there for like a year.

[225] Okay.

[226] It was an Army brat.

[227] Uh -huh.

[228] And then he retired in Tallahassee, Florida, when I was in the seventh grade.

[229] Okay.

[230] And then that's where I spent most of my high school and growing up experience.

[231] So he was an employee of the Army or the military?

[232] Yeah, he was a colonel.

[233] And had he served in Vietnam?

[234] He served in Vietnam.

[235] And he was not gone.

[236] when I was born, but from my brother and my sister, he was gone quite often.

[237] And what was he prior to teaching?

[238] He studied at West Point, and then, well, when he growing up, he was a big athlete and stuff like that.

[239] Uh -huh.

[240] Okay.

[241] I read a lot of historical nonfiction.

[242] And nearly every book I read about someone, they went to West Point.

[243] And always in their class was like another, you know, and especially that Civil War era.

[244] Like, they all had gone to school together and were classmates.

[245] What I appreciate is just the tremendous amount of pride when they gather together, and I love that kind of union that they have.

[246] Yeah, yeah.

[247] I have, however, have never had an interest in the military in general.

[248] I mean, I will say this.

[249] My dad and my mom have always been very supportive of kind of the arts.

[250] Because my grandfather was an opera singer.

[251] Oh, he was.

[252] And he also sung in a lot of clubs in Miami, like club singing and stuff like that.

[253] And so my dad and appreciation for the arts.

[254] Mom's dad or dad's dad?

[255] Dad's dad.

[256] Okay.

[257] Because, yeah, I go straight to a really stereotypical military father.

[258] He's obviously brilliant.

[259] He teaches nuclear physics.

[260] Right, right, right, right.

[261] And West Point.

[262] But then I see that you went to kind of an artsy high school, didn't you?

[263] I didn't go to an artsy high school?

[264] So in Tallahassee, I went to kind of just a regular high school, kind of very all -American.

[265] But when I moved in the seventh grade, I was not into sports.

[266] And in the South, sports is everything, as you know from Georgia.

[267] And so my parents didn't really know what to do with me. I was having a hard time in middle school.

[268] And then they found this through my friend Mimi Stalber, who lived on the street with me, she told me about this theater called Young Actress Theater.

[269] It was just lifeblood for me. Like it was a place where, I don't know, I felt free.

[270] I felt like I could be stupid and not judge for it.

[271] And I'm a huge advocate for arts education just because I think even if you don't go in the career, like I have.

[272] I think certain personalities need that environment to thrive.

[273] And I was definitely one of those personalities that needed that environment.

[274] Yeah, to me it feels, A, I didn't do all that, but it does feel very inclusive to me. As opposed to like sports.

[275] It's like, come try out.

[276] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[277] We're going to cut you.

[278] You're not going to be physically good enough for, you know, for most people or big enough and all this.

[279] But yeah, theater programs seem to be super inclusive.

[280] And you have to love it.

[281] Like, it's like they loved sports.

[282] Yes.

[283] Like, they loved it.

[284] I just never had an interest in it, but I loved performing and theater and stuff.

[285] What city were you in in fifth grade?

[286] Fifth grade, here's a fun fact.

[287] I don't really remember much from sixth grade down.

[288] Okay.

[289] And so fifth grade, I believe I was, okay, this is going to sound dark like I was ritualistically abused or something, but it's...

[290] Oh, I hope so.

[291] That's what we hope they'll uncover.

[292] In your expense, it'll be worth it.

[293] My parents are witches and wipe my memory.

[294] But I want to say I was in Heidelberg, because we lived in Germany for five years.

[295] Oh, my goodness.

[296] That's very relevant.

[297] Dex loves Germany.

[298] Oh, I do.

[299] And I think fifth grade, I was, because we lived in Berlin for two years and Heidelberg for three.

[300] Oh, my gosh.

[301] And I believe fifth grade might have been Heidelberg.

[302] And do you speak German?

[303] No. Okay.

[304] We lived on an American base.

[305] Uh -huh.

[306] And I don't, I don't speak German.

[307] Did you enjoy that part of your childhood?

[308] I just don't remember much of it.

[309] You don't remember.

[310] I don't.

[311] And I don't know why I've been to a lot of therapy.

[312] I just don't have much of a memory of it.

[313] Interesting.

[314] I don't know like friends, teachers, anything like that.

[315] Do you ever inquire with your parents?

[316] Like, hey, what was I like in elementary school?

[317] Sometimes.

[318] Sometimes.

[319] But, like, it's funny because my memories are attached to pictures.

[320] Like, I'll have an idea of what the house look like because of a picture that I've seen over and over and over.

[321] I just realized this about my memories recently.

[322] I thought they were memories and I realized I just memorized these photo albums we have.

[323] Yeah, but I can't tell.

[324] you.

[325] I can't tell you one friend I had.

[326] And not that I think I had friends.

[327] I just don't remember much.

[328] All of my memories, I would say, started when we moved to Tallahassee.

[329] It also might have been to think of moving around so much.

[330] Maybe I didn't attach memories to it.

[331] Right.

[332] I didn't invest maybe emotionally because I knew we were going to, I don't know.

[333] It's just, nothing in my parents' fault.

[334] It was just for some reason I just didn't.

[335] Yeah.

[336] You could do hypnosis because we had someone on member, Jonathan, who had, he had this massive traumatic event that he couldn't remember all the details.

[337] He went to hypnosis and then they got him there.

[338] They got him into his memory on it.

[339] Is that, have you heard of EMDR?

[340] I've heard of it, but I haven't done it.

[341] It's this great technique that they use with a lot with people who struggle with PTSD.

[342] Yeah.

[343] And with certain traumas, memories can get locked.

[344] Right.

[345] And so it's a way to go from the left brain to the right brain.

[346] And so you will either use these buzzers where you tap each hand or you tap your legs.

[347] And it's going from left to right as sensory -wise.

[348] You think of a memory and it begins to unlock because it's those thoughts.

[349] Yeah, it's kind of what he was explaining.

[350] Virtually he was saying that they were building sparklers in a classroom exercise.

[351] And there was a huge explosion and kids got really hurt and blah, blah, blah.

[352] But generally he would go to this point in his memory.

[353] And this guy had techniques to your point ask you like, more of a left brain thing like what color were the shorts that such as a and like he whoa you know he ducked and dived him around where normally it starts looping that memory it is the whole concept to allow yourself to feel that experience and that's a way to kind of heal through it yeah i believe so which is interesting because if you if you look at what a dionetics offers elron hubbard called him ngrams in that book mind you i'm not a scientologist the example in the book is the woman every time there's a door open she gets really anxious she hates having doors open she yells at her kids because they leave the door open she doesn't like when the curtains are blowing if someone leaves the window up and blah blah she gets uneasy when the faucet's running and someone leaves it on anyways as it turns out you know she was raped in a house and the man left the door open and the curtains were blowing and the faucet was on and so she's connected all these physical things to that traumatic event and that you need to go in and disconnect all the things you've associated with that traumatic event.

[354] Again, very interesting idea.

[355] Ultimately, when he turned that over to the American Psychological Association, they said there's no science behind this.

[356] It's a neat theory, and that's why he was so mad.

[357] So she had no recollection.

[358] She did not remember that she was a...

[359] She knew she had been abused, but she had never dove into that memory to really take count of every single thing that was going on around her and how that is connected for the rest of her life to trigger that trauma.

[360] Of course.

[361] I hope I'm representing that theory correctly.

[362] I'll fact check it.

[363] But it sounds weirdly similar in what you're saying and the hypnosis was saying.

[364] The way I think about that is the memories are attached to things.

[365] Like if somebody struggles with something, there's an attachment to, that made me think of like Hugh Hefner when he, I don't know, I might want to fact check this, but I had heard that his father, he had a bunny blanket.

[366] and please if this is this is wrong but I heard this I don't have like made of bunny fur or the shape of a bunny I think it was I want to say it had bunnies on it or some kind of blanket and his father thought it was ridiculous and threw it in the fire or destroyed it somehow hence a lot of the bunny stuff happening from that and it's like that kind of trauma it was attached to a form of acting out right yeah and almost a rebellion to his father Yes.

[367] Or something like that.

[368] Interesting.

[369] Yeah.

[370] But I'm really curious, junior high for most people, is a fucking beating.

[371] Even if you've spent the last five years with these students.

[372] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[373] Even if you were just moving from New York to Tallahassee, that would be its own thing.

[374] But this feels like a triple whammy.

[375] Coming from Germany, I can't imagine your American style was on point.

[376] You don't like sports.

[377] And then you start seventh grade where hormones are online, dudes are starting to get hair, all this stuff's happening.

[378] It's got to be a, uh, yeah, it was.

[379] rough transition.

[380] It was, I mean, if I'm honest, it wasn't easy.

[381] I was a different artistic kid in the South, and I moved into town.

[382] I remember going to this middle school, I won't say which one it was.

[383] My dad dropped me off, and he told me later just how devastating it was to drop your kid off, and he just felt like he was feeding him to the wolves.

[384] Yes.

[385] Just couldn't find my people, and it was tricky, and I think Tina Williams, this woman who started this theater, it really, I can't emphasize enough the gift that, like, she gave to me. All that stuff is and my daughter's now 13 and so she's at the school and you know there's things that happen but she's fine like she's and I find myself putting my own trauma on her.

[386] Yes.

[387] I'm just like who hit you.

[388] You know what they call you today?

[389] Do you want me to move school?

[390] And she's like no I like my school but I'm creating this whole narrative that I went through on her and she's like dad I'm fine it's tricky.

[391] It's so crazy how I'll watch especially when our firstborn was brand new.

[392] You got grandma in town, Kristen's mom, who's obsessed with the fact that she's cold.

[393] Now, I know she runs hot, and even if I put her in Jamie, she wiggles out of them at night.

[394] She runs hot.

[395] Right, right.

[396] Grandma's got this idea that she's freezing.

[397] So she's in the bathroom, with the door closed in the bathtub on and the water really hot.

[398] I don't want my kids anywhere where the door's closed, and there's another adult from my trauma.

[399] Right, right, right.

[400] So I'm like, leave the fucking door open.

[401] And then you have Kristen coming, I mean, and who's got a third thing that maybe is, you know, her stuff with her mom.

[402] Yeah.

[403] And I'm looking at this little person that's like, you know, eight months old in a tub representing all this shit for all three of us.

[404] That none of it's happening.

[405] Right, right, right.

[406] And I just had to, it's really hard to stop yourself from going down that path, isn't it?

[407] And it takes a lot of work.

[408] I mean, just personal work.

[409] I mean, I would say even with my wife, like if I find myself reacting some way to her coming from something from my childhood to say, this is Martin.

[410] tell my wife.

[411] This is not, you know, my mother, you know, or stuff.

[412] That kind of like, and it because I'm reacting from a different place.

[413] And with my daughter, it's like she has her own experience.

[414] This is not Tallahassee, Florida for her.

[415] This is, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[416] Right.

[417] I would be able to guess, I think, probably pretty accurately what role you had to snap into there.

[418] As far as like the, first of all, we're roughly the same age.

[419] I think you're a few years older than me yeah but when I grew up there were only a few options for you the dudes were going to put you in one of these categories whether you liked it or not when I grew up everything was just the apex of homophobia is the worst thing you can do that's what you got called yeah yeah and if you weren't one of those dudes you just took it on the chin all the time yeah and I would say the sissy you know names all those kind of things were definitely thrown at me just purely out of they didn't know what category to put me in.

[420] Right, you probably didn't dress like all then.

[421] I would know and I was a very sensitive continued to be a very sensitive person and I don't know so I think yeah I got those names a lot I look back at that though and my goal was so to be liked it's amazing how these people who were not kind to me but I so desperately wanted them to like me almost like a dog returning to its vomit.

[422] It's you know the kind of sense like you shit on me, but I'm going to make it my goal for you to like me. And so I became all things to whoever anybody wanted.

[423] Right.

[424] It's amazing how, like, I even told this one girl, this is so awful, but she had this tragic thing.

[425] Someone died very close to her.

[426] And this is when I was new to the school.

[427] I wanted so bad for her to like me, I told her my sister had died.

[428] Oh, wow.

[429] Oh, boy.

[430] That's really relating.

[431] And by the way, she could care less.

[432] but I had to live for the rest of my Tallahassee experience with her thinking I had a dead sister perpetuating this and it's like I'm just like the depth of that brokenness of wanting her this popular girl to like me and her having this hey how unbelievably selfish and narcissistic that is to do that to somebody but just coming from a place of like like me please if you like me then they'll like me it'll be a domino effect I had the exact same experience.

[433] Really?

[434] The exact same.

[435] I mean, I didn't tell anyone that my sister died, but I was always going to be what that person wanted me to be and give them what they wanted.

[436] So then you become indisposable to them.

[437] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[438] Oh, totally.

[439] Do you have siblings?

[440] I do.

[441] I have a sister and a brother who's both alive.

[442] Were you nervous that had the living sister appeared, would you have said, oh, this is my other sister?

[443] Oh, I, well, this, I mean, that's crazy how I had this mapped out.

[444] My sister's eight years older than I was.

[445] Oh, okay.

[446] So she was then off into her own life.

[447] So in my head, I thought, well, she's never going to be.

[448] My brother was four years older than me. Right.

[449] So he was a senior when I was a freshman.

[450] How did he adjust to the move?

[451] He was a sports guy.

[452] Okay.

[453] He was very into soccer and he found, and again, it's, again, I love to go back to Tallahassee.

[454] I really enjoy Tallahassee.

[455] those beginning specific years were challenging.

[456] Sure.

[457] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[458] Well, they're character defining ultimately, right?

[459] They are.

[460] They are.

[461] It's like, those were some very anxious years.

[462] I struggle with anxiety myself, and I play anxiety very well.

[463] Yes.

[464] Well, better than I think anyone out there.

[465] But, I mean, that comes, when you kind of dive into that part of yourself to try to bring a genuine performance.

[466] Yes.

[467] It's very easy for me to do panic, anxiety, anxiety.

[468] society, codependency.

[469] All of that, it's just very natural for me. Yeah, there's just really, you're going to hate it, but there's no one better.

[470] I mean, as you're saying, I can see your, like, your quiet storm while you stand next to Julia at all times just like, a fucking hurricane of what's happening.

[471] And your voice is never stable.

[472] It's so good.

[473] We're huge fans.

[474] Oh, we're the biggest.

[475] We're the biggest.

[476] Well, that's very nice.

[477] But it's like, even with anxiety, however it's been displayed, me growing up media where it's like, things are crazy.

[478] and I'm freaking out.

[479] That's not my life.

[480] Like, my life is everything's going on in the brain and I'm trying to keep the shit together on the outside.

[481] Right.

[482] I remember my guys that I would watch growing up was like Bob Newhart, Tim Conway, and Bob Newhart had a way I would watch him and there was so much chaos happening around him and he would just stare.

[483] You just had this, like, stillness to him that you knew shit was going on in his head.

[484] Right.

[485] It was just all in the eyes.

[486] and I loved watching that.

[487] Yeah, that is.

[488] I've never really even taking the time to break down what he did, but yeah, that's exactly what was happening.

[489] And just his subtleties and, I mean, Tim Conway, that, remember that scene, the dentist when he's, him and Harvey Corman, Tim Covey's a dentist and he's trying to give Novakain to Harvey Corman and he accidentally stabbed his own arm and it goes numb and then he stabs his leg.

[490] And it's all done so organically and not forced.

[491] It's just, It was just this dance that he did.

[492] Yeah.

[493] Oh, it's beautiful.

[494] Now, I don't want to get too granular about it, but do you recall how your sister had died?

[495] Was it like vehicular homicide or?

[496] No, it's just awful.

[497] It was, I think it was cancer.

[498] I mean, it's like, it's like, I'm, granted, I am, I say this and I am so ashamed.

[499] It's just so not proud, and I, oh, and I've told my sister this, and my sister's just like, what?

[500] And I know exactly the girl who I, you know, did it to and I said it to.

[501] And honestly, she's probably forgotten that conversation.

[502] Well, it sounds like she wasn't too concerned about you.

[503] She wasn't too concerned.

[504] And cut to the same situation I told you about earlier with a celebrity.

[505] I've been on this train with her for the past 30 years thinking she must think.

[506] She's probably didn't even think about it.

[507] I'm surprised she hasn't updated your Wikipedia page.

[508] Like, wait, no. His sister's dead.

[509] I do love the idea, though, that she was flicking through cable.

[510] and she came across V. And she's like, oh, my God, I think I know that guy.

[511] The guy's sister died of cancer.

[512] We were in junior high.

[513] He must have had two sisters.

[514] He must have had a second sister.

[515] That's so awful.

[516] Oh, my goodness.

[517] No, it's so human.

[518] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[519] We've all been there.

[520] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[521] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[522] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceiling.

[523] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[524] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[525] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[526] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[527] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[528] What's up, guys?

[529] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[530] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[531] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[532] And I don't mean just friends.

[533] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[534] The list goes on.

[535] So follow, watch and listen to Baby.

[536] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[537] Okay.

[538] So we talked about Mike a little bit who was a nuclear physics instructor.

[539] So he's clearly a very bright person.

[540] And your mother, though, she also was very busy.

[541] Yeah, she was a staffer.

[542] Yeah, she, where they lived in Atlanta.

[543] My parents, they now live in Viro Beach, Florida.

[544] But they lived in Atlanta.

[545] She worked with a politician there.

[546] And then she also helped Bob Graham's election in Florida when we lived in Tallahassee.

[547] And she was very, she enjoyed the kind of political scene.

[548] Is it fun for her to watch you end up on a show, which is all that backstage at a political?

[549] Yeah.

[550] It's really fun for them.

[551] They're really fun.

[552] They never got arrested development.

[553] Sure.

[554] Sure.

[555] To this day, they're just like, our friends love it.

[556] Uh -huh.

[557] The thing I had was my mom saw idiocracy as she called me and she said, uh, Well, it's, you know, it's not my favorite thing you've done.

[558] Like, that was about as much as she could muster.

[559] But in her defense, she called me, like, seven months later.

[560] And she's like, I think that movie might be really smart.

[561] I think it is happening.

[562] I think that maybe the movie was smarter than I realized.

[563] So I got some later.

[564] Yeah, I don't know if you experienced this.

[565] I mean, again, very supportive.

[566] But everyone when Martin Short was on arrested, and they were like, now he, he's funny.

[567] Yes.

[568] Now, that's a funny.

[569] Yes.

[570] With the friends, they're like, yeah, our friends love it.

[571] We still don't get it, that kind of a thing.

[572] Right.

[573] So, mom's smart, dad smart.

[574] Did you do well at school?

[575] Did that come easy to you?

[576] I think I did.

[577] I think I was an average student.

[578] I wasn't like a Valvictorian, but I was, I average B. Okay, that's enough.

[579] Yeah.

[580] I will say I sucked on my SATs really bad.

[581] You know how you had two scores?

[582] Yeah.

[583] I think both of my scores together each equaled what typically one people make on one score.

[584] Okay, sure.

[585] And I, and then the college I went, it was a great college, but they, Samford, Samford.

[586] Which sounds so close to Stamford.

[587] Very close.

[588] Yes.

[589] Yeah.

[590] But they had mercy on me, and I think they were one of the only schools that accepted me. Yeah.

[591] And you studied journalism there, right?

[592] I studied journalism, yeah.

[593] So despite having enjoyed the theater program in high school, junior high, did you, you didn't have any illusions of going to pursue that professionally?

[594] Or did you then?

[595] I think I did.

[596] But I didn't think I could make a career out of it.

[597] I studied journalism, and then after it, I was like, well, maybe I'll dip my toe back into it.

[598] Then 95, I moved to New York and tried it.

[599] But you also got a master's degree along the way.

[600] Yeah, I got a master in Virginia, in Virginia.

[601] Because in my head, that was actually more of an experience just, I had back to the anxiety.

[602] I think I had a lot of anxiety about getting back on stage and kind of doing theater again.

[603] Yeah.

[604] And that's also a part of think of a reason of why I didn't do it in college.

[605] I just didn't have that confidence.

[606] Yeah.

[607] And so I wanted to kind of get a little more dip my toe back in Virginia and then when before I went to New York.

[608] Yeah.

[609] You were also in a fraternity at the first school at Sanford, right?

[610] It was.

[611] It was.

[612] Sigma Kai.

[613] What kind of fraternity is that?

[614] I'm not too hip to which, like.

[615] It was a pretty calm.

[616] Samford was a very, like we never drank in college.

[617] Oh, you didn't.

[618] It was not.

[619] Is it a Christian school?

[620] Yeah, it was a Christian school.

[621] But we never sounds right out of footloose.

[622] would just like dance really hard.

[623] Oh, okay.

[624] I like that.

[625] And we would go to parties and just go crazy.

[626] But it's funny how, because people say, God, that sounds, what was that like?

[627] I don't even remember, we never really had the desire to, like, party or drink crazy.

[628] We just, we went to these dances and just dance really hard.

[629] Even though in footloose, they weren't allowed to dance.

[630] It's kind of a reverse.

[631] It's the opposite.

[632] Yeah, yeah.

[633] The Christians in this story who just loved to dance.

[634] I can relate in that, I was sober my senior year of high school after a, a bad, 11th grade year of drinking.

[635] So I was sober at the height of going to all these parties.

[636] And similarly, I just, I danced my ass off.

[637] Wow.

[638] Have you been sober?

[639] I know you're sober now.

[640] Were you sober from then?

[641] No, I was sober all senior year.

[642] And then graduated high school was going to live in my car with my best friend, Aaron Weekly, I had read on the road.

[643] That's what I was going to do with life.

[644] And then we, and he was sober at that time, too.

[645] And then we made it out to California.

[646] We went to a party at UCSB that was on the cliffs overlooking the ocean.

[647] And the whole drive out, we'd heard these Samuel Adams commercials.

[648] I don't know if you remember those, but like Samuel Adams is one, the best logger of Boston nine years in a row.

[649] And we were just obsessed with like how delicious that beer must taste.

[650] And we walk into this party.

[651] We can't believe we're there.

[652] And someone goes, they just brought the cake and you want some at Sam Adams.

[653] And we're like, we've got to fucking do it.

[654] and then just didn't look back for about a decade.

[655] Yeah.

[656] It really wasn't, I guess, until after college, I kind of, like, would have a drink or something like that.

[657] But in college, I don't remember any of it.

[658] Now, religion, I am actually excited to have you on, assuming you like talking about it.

[659] Because I'm generally, vocally, I'm an atheist.

[660] We have mutual friends, Ryan and Amy.

[661] You know them, right?

[662] Yeah, yeah.

[663] And I cannot deny the power of their religion in their life.

[664] It's so blatant to me. I can see in Amy that she has.

[665] has Jesus in her heart.

[666] I literally see it.

[667] I personally don't believe in it, but I see its impact on their life, and it seems very positive.

[668] So it's fun for me, because I'll often get a bunch of different atheists in here, and we'll lament about that.

[669] And I am always curious to give a voice to like what people get out of it for themselves.

[670] Yeah, I love to talk about it.

[671] I mean, I think I used to be when I first moved to L .A., I think I was very much on the defense about it.

[672] I think probably in the past five years there's been a lot more of an ownership of because it really is everything for me it's a huge part of my life and the way i's for my journey the way i see it is i i mean having the relationship with god and knowing that a power much greater than myself is with me and walking through this life with me and giving me strength and comfort and someone i can just fall apart too and right and knowing that he sees a much bigger picture than i do is incredibly assuring for me comforting and comforting to me and and it's also just having a presence that challenges me and i mean just to forgive people that i don't really want to forgive right and to have a perspective on somebody that is different than that i don't necessarily want wouldn't choose right like i can think of somebody that i can't stand and just being able to see that I have the traits that I can't stand in that person I have in myself as well.

[673] Oh, sure.

[674] You know, and just those aren't choices that I naturally make.

[675] And I think with this journey, with faith, I always have that reminder.

[676] Gosh, it's, when I'm asked this question, it's very hard.

[677] I don't know if Amy and Ryan can say this as well, but it's hard to explain.

[678] Sure.

[679] Because there's a presence and just a being that is so a part of me. I also understand when somebody hears about my faith, everybody's bringing into their own history with faith.

[680] Oh, for sure.

[681] Of whether it be trauma or, you know, somebody in the church that did them wrong or whatever structure.

[682] So I get like there's so many perspectives attached to my faith.

[683] And it's even politically it's very, very frustrating.

[684] Yeah, because it almost currently implies that you're on the right if you're.

[685] Yeah.

[686] Yeah, and it's, and I, not to mention names, but we probably know the name that the faith community is attached to politically.

[687] And when someone is following God, God talks about kind of the fruits of that is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and self -control.

[688] Those seem to be on full display with the kind of, yeah.

[689] And here's the deal.

[690] I'm working on two or three on a good day on those.

[691] Yeah, yeah, sure.

[692] But when it's difficult to find one of those in a community or a person that is, someone is being attached to the faith community or whatever, that's tricky for me. You know, that's really, that's tricky.

[693] Yeah.

[694] And there's a part of me that's like, oh, please don't define my faith with that.

[695] But I can't, again, that's where I go to the powerless and someone.

[696] I can't control that.

[697] Totally.

[698] Totally.

[699] Well, I can relate deeply in that I'm a member of this program AA.

[700] Yeah.

[701] And I can almost guarantee you that if you walked into any random AA meeting and I was forced to defend some of the behavior.

[702] you're at that meeting or some of the, you know, characters that were there.

[703] Surely, you know, it is something that is ultimately executed by human beings in that it gets messy and often it's not the thing I'm drawn to about the program or, you know, so I relate in that.

[704] When you're able through your relationship with God to forgive people you wouldn't otherwise forgive or find empathy in them, is it because you do feel the bond?

[705] of, oh, we're the children of this same God?

[706] Is that the thing that allows you to become benevolent towards it?

[707] Or is it different than that?

[708] I think it's more for me, it's more of who am I to not forgive this person when I know how many choices I've made that I feel like I've been forgiven?

[709] Right.

[710] Who am I to not give that to somebody else?

[711] Yeah.

[712] And I think there's an awareness of that, I would say.

[713] Now, when you say it's generally something that annoys you, about yourself, I'm happy to go first.

[714] I hate the guy at the party who's trying to get tons of attention.

[715] And of course, I want all the attention at every single party.

[716] So what are some of the things that'll irk you about people?

[717] Oh, God.

[718] I would say that's probably the thing about it, I think we all want to be seen.

[719] We all want to be known.

[720] And when I see somebody to your point of like trying to feed off of something at a party or whether it be attention or a story that they're telling or just to kind of get that adoration.

[721] Yeah.

[722] I'm very aware of, I've done that many times myself.

[723] Yeah.

[724] I'll try to grab a party.

[725] I'll try to tell the best story.

[726] Sure.

[727] I'll try to get those conversations when they walk away talking about me. You know, it's all that bullshit.

[728] And so, you know, I think you have a keen eye on something that you can resonate within yourself.

[729] So, I mean, I completely get that.

[730] And it's really funny because I always say this, my favorite thing, is when we have like 16 people over or 20 people over right and four of us remain in the kitchen after everyone's left and then you kind of go through the four people and it's like someone going do you guys like that Greg dude he was so annoying he like you're constantly bragging about his money or something whatever and i'm like oh no i completely miss that but uh carroll boy she's a bitch huh and then i'll go through my thing and then when i find always it's like there's almost never consensus.

[731] Unless a guy shit in the living room.

[732] There's really no consensus.

[733] It's just like whatever person basically mirrored the things you hate about yourself at that party.

[734] But isn't it interesting how I walk by so many conversations and I do this myself, but they're always talking about somebody else.

[735] Uh -huh, sure.

[736] You know, it's that sense of there's a community building technique of talking about another person.

[737] Yes.

[738] Which is unfortunate.

[739] You know, it's because nobody wants to say, man, I really didn't show up to this party.

[740] I've really been judgmental with this party.

[741] I'm really here for the wrong motivations.

[742] I mean, not that we would, because that would be a huge buzzkill, but it's much more community building to say, God, why did he come?

[743] Why was she there?

[744] Yeah.

[745] We talked about this a lot.

[746] You had a long breakdown of like the evolutionary benefits of gossip being, there's so many upsides of it.

[747] Yeah, sure.

[748] A, it's relationship building, it's relationship maintaining.

[749] It has the power.

[750] It's a warning to, yes, to prevent someone else experiencing some laws.

[751] Would you say it's a warning?

[752] Because I get that.

[753] Would you, if I were to say telling somebody else, don't do this because I'm going to have the reaction.

[754] Exactly.

[755] It's like, this person does this and no one likes that.

[756] So it's telling you, okay, I shouldn't do that.

[757] It's like a shaming technique in a way.

[758] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[759] These are my parameters for you to be my friend.

[760] Yeah, yeah.

[761] Yeah.

[762] And then on top of it going, like, maybe there's a real warning in there.

[763] Like, don't, don't ever loan him money.

[764] He's bad with me. He's so, you know, whatever.

[765] There could be some beneficial item I'm passing on to you to save you.

[766] But then I think also under all that is we're a social animal who's dying to know where we're at.

[767] Not even if we desire to be number one, there's all this anxiety about where am I in, what strata am I in?

[768] That made me think of, I was talking about, this might not even be connected, but it made me think of the whole idea when you were saying about wanting the connection.

[769] It's like everybody wants to be known, everybody wants to be seen.

[770] And I was having an interesting conversation recently about fame and how everybody sees that as the ultimate being known, like the ultimate being seen, and how many Instagram follows you have, how many Twitter follows you have, all that kind of stuff.

[771] I was saying how it's actually just the opposite.

[772] For a person in, I don't know, who's working in Alabama somewhere, anything said to them, anything given to them, anything encouraged for them, whatever, there's no strings attached.

[773] it's just they can know that they are receiving that for who they are with good or bad someone like Angelina Jolie whatever said to them given to them encouragement there's always questioning the motives as to where that's coming from so actually that's a very isolating isolated place so when we look at fame as the ultimate it's actually the opposite I would say that that person in Alabama is more known than Angelina Jolie yes and just that was a huge tangent but like No, no, no, I agree.

[774] There's a sweet spot, I got to say, or at least appears to be a sweet spot from my vantage point, which is I have friends that are uber, uber successful in our business.

[775] And that does, to me, appear to be very isolating.

[776] Even in my own AA meeting, there's been a couple visitors that were so famous that I could just feel that it's impossible not to be thinking about the person.

[777] Like it's impossible the person's so well known and so alpha in this world that it's not possible to sit among them and not be thinking about them than thinking about what they think about you.

[778] And then I was just watching the person.

[779] I got out of my own head for long enough to go, there's no way that person isn't feeling this.

[780] This is a palpable energy that I'm feeling among my friends who I respect and have morals and all these things.

[781] And I thought, wow, that's isolating.

[782] And not in when you're around people who you can.

[783] feel aren't in their skin.

[784] Yes.

[785] I'm not at that level.

[786] Yeah, me either.

[787] But I've, there are people that might like my stuff and you can feel that they're not in their skin and it, you want them to be.

[788] Yeah.

[789] And it's so, I would think it's so hard to be present for that person walking into that meeting at that level.

[790] Uh -huh.

[791] To focus on why they're there, to focus on the material because it takes a lot, I would think it would take a lot of work to say, wow, there's, I can feel this energy.

[792] I can feel these eyes, but I need to focus on this.

[793] And I got and I need a place to come be honest about all my shit.

[794] And I will say in those cases, it does dissipate.

[795] Like after a couple or three meetings, it got back down to the normal level.

[796] But I just thought, oh, well, everywhere this person goes in life, they're experiencing this energy.

[797] And what a gift for them to find relationships that are purely authentic and grounded.

[798] Yes.

[799] And they gravitate the those for the rest of their lives.

[800] Okay, you get out of college, you move to New York City, having just done your master's degree to kind of refine your voice and steal yourself, it sounds like.

[801] That's a big move for you, I would imagine.

[802] It is a big move, and I think about that, and I don't know if you guys can relate to this, I don't like to travel.

[803] I could go to the mall food court for the rest of my life and be fine.

[804] Maybe it's because I travel so much as a kid.

[805] I like structure.

[806] I like just going back to the same places.

[807] I'm just not a bit of explorer.

[808] So for me to make that move, I look back on that and I'm like, I don't even know why I did that.

[809] I didn't know anybody.

[810] Did you do it completely by yourself?

[811] By myself.

[812] I found a sublet in the East Village for a month from this.

[813] I think I was on like seven different couches in the first year of just like looking in the newspaper for sublets and stuff.

[814] And I just kind of couch topped and then I found this place.

[815] But I just didn't know anybody.

[816] And the first show I did was Shakespeare in the parking lot where I did like, Tamey at a shrew in a parking lot in the East Village.

[817] I met some friends that way and then just did all these jobs.

[818] But I'm amazed that I took that step because that's not very much my personality.

[819] Right.

[820] But you founded or co -founded a Christian theater company while you were there?

[821] It was more of a, I had met a lot of artists whose faith was important to them.

[822] Some of them were not really supported by the church.

[823] You know, if they weren't doing what the church deems as pure art or something like that, but they wanted to just do something different.

[824] Yeah.

[825] And so we would just kind of get together and encourage one another and go see each other's stuff.

[826] And each week, somebody would stand up and give an inspiration, whether it be a dance or a song or something like that.

[827] And then we'd do a lot of service projects.

[828] We would do this thing where we'd make apple pies for a shelter at Thanksgiving or something just to kind of, because obviously we know we're selling ourselves.

[829] That's the business.

[830] So we would try to kind of get our eyes off ourselves.

[831] And it was called the Haven.

[832] Sounds like a cold, but it was.

[833] It was just really just kind of like almost a fellowship.

[834] Right.

[835] And how many members were there of this?

[836] Members, I don't know, but like people coming.

[837] We didn't really have like a membership, but it was like a hundred something.

[838] A hundred.

[839] Yeah.

[840] Any of those folks still friends to this day?

[841] Very good friends, yeah.

[842] And what was your path into employment?

[843] I saw that you were on Sopranos, which really excites me. I've been dying to make Kristen watch that whole series and Monica.

[844] And now over the years, we've interviewed some people that had little roles on it.

[845] And I can't wait to rewatch because I imagine.

[846] it's a bit of a mindfield of people that are now.

[847] Yeah, I was a nurse oncologist on it, so I gave Uncle Jr. his chemo medicine.

[848] Oh, sure.

[849] But it was just like one little scene.

[850] But I was so petrified.

[851] I had mainly done commercials, and I was having a hard time.

[852] It took me like six or seven years to find somebody to rep me for TV and film.

[853] And so getting this soprano's little part really is a big deal.

[854] And I was just so anxious about it.

[855] I mean, the first time I had a dressing room, all that kind of stuff.

[856] I was really overwhelmed.

[857] And what kind of story were you spinning?

[858] Like, how was it going to go sideways?

[859] What are the things that you fear?

[860] Was it like performance -wise?

[861] You know, actually what I specifically remember, I was giving his treatment.

[862] And when I get nervous, my handshake.

[863] Okay.

[864] When I've done theater many times in the past, if I have a holding a cup, I'll put a weight in there to keep it from shaking because that's how they'll manifest themselves sometimes.

[865] Yeah.

[866] And so I was so nervous that my hands are going to be shaking while doing all the chords and all that kind of stuff around him.

[867] Yeah.

[868] And I can't remember if I did, but that was a big focus point.

[869] Was your hands?

[870] Just like, please just relax the hands.

[871] God, you just brought me back to the fact that in high school in my early 20s, I got clammy hands when I was nervous.

[872] And I went leading up to knowing I was about to shake someone's hand or like, you're even walking into someplace, you're like, oh shit, I bet we're going to start shaking hands.

[873] And then they would just turn on.

[874] Really?

[875] Oh, yeah.

[876] I would be like, soon as I would think about the fact that they were going to be clamming.

[877] me, they would self -loob up.

[878] Oh boy.

[879] Yeah, it was very rough.

[880] I can't tell you like how much of my day was spent rubbing my hands on my jeans.

[881] The other night, Julia, Louis Dreyfus got this award and I was presenting it to her and I did a little speech and she came up and got it and I was standing to the side and my knees like randomly just started shaking because I was staying next to her.

[882] And that whole game of like, try not to think about it.

[883] Maybe they'll calm down or maybe I should think of.

[884] about it because maybe that'll calm them down and just thinking everybody is looking at my knees just going nuts underneath the suit which probably nobody was but yeah yeah just randomly they just started vibrating they just came online and started doing their thing has that dissipated over times i mean you're more and more and more on these stages and in front of people and yeah i think there's i mean not to get into it but like anxiety is something that i've kind of dealt with so i think i have i've developed a lot of tools on how to manage it.

[885] Have you heard of cognitive behavioral therapy?

[886] Yes.

[887] So I've done a lot of that just like tricks.

[888] I have a lot of tricks.

[889] I'm actually about to do this play in San Francisco in January.

[890] I haven't done theater in a long time.

[891] So it's like that if I find myself creating narratives of what could happen that's an example of like don't live in the what if, stay in the now.

[892] Using whenever I'm kind of find myself really anxious, tap into the five senses, like what do I smell, what do I see, what do I hear, what do I touch?

[893] And that kind of wakes you up to where you are.

[894] Stuff like that.

[895] Also going really meta, like, it just doesn't matter.

[896] Yeah, sure.

[897] You know, I remember, oh, this was such a gift.

[898] I was doing Conan one time and I left the stage and just didn't feel like it went really well and thought my story bombed or something.

[899] I went up to Andy and I was like, Andy, I just don't think that was really good.

[900] And he goes, Tony, it doesn't matter.

[901] It just doesn't matter.

[902] And he said, like, it's like a paper boat on the ocean.

[903] It just goes away.

[904] Yes.

[905] And it was such a gift because I had given it so much weight.

[906] And just things like that, like, it's just kind of going to that place of, there's a great quote, I'm going to get his name wrong, Carlos Castaneda or something.

[907] And he said, treat everything as if it's the only thing that matters, knowing at the same time it doesn't matter at all.

[908] And it's like, I'm going to give myself over to it.

[909] But in the meta, and it's that kind of living in the tension, it does matter, it doesn't matter.

[910] It's like if I'm in an event and I find myself carrying too much.

[911] much about something, I have guilt about it.

[912] If I don't care enough about it, I have guilt about it.

[913] It's like I can walk into a situation and say I care and I don't care.

[914] It matters and it doesn't matter.

[915] Those two can both coexist together.

[916] You can't control kind of back to the cognitive thinking.

[917] These thoughts, emotions, it's like watching them like cars on a highway.

[918] Oh yeah, there's that thought that this means everything.

[919] There's that thought that my daughter's going to be kidnapped.

[920] There's that emotion that I'm going to fall apart.

[921] You know, and they come and go.

[922] And trying not, for me, trying not to identify with them so much.

[923] Yeah.

[924] That's really tricky.

[925] It is interesting because it's like you have chosen a career, as have we.

[926] Like you very much could have created a life for yourself where you weren't in these situations where they were high risk or high reward or anything.

[927] But just the mere fact of auditioning as we have to audition, you have to have a game plan.

[928] Yeah.

[929] You have to have some mental gymnastics you're doing.

[930] to go into a room and believe you belong there and then believe you can do the thing you can do at its best in that moment.

[931] All these things like people seem to have many different tricks for it but it does require something I think.

[932] Yeah and I think I don't know for you guys but it changes over time like even the fact that we're living in such uncertainty with our career that alone is why did we make that choice?

[933] Yeah.

[934] Typically people go on job interviews for two or three months and then have a gig for two or three years we are on job interviews for two or three years and we're lucky if we get a gig for two or three months.

[935] It's just the opposite.

[936] Over time, auditions used to be, it's all these techniques, but it used to freak me out.

[937] And now I've kind of gotten to this place where I slightly enjoy them.

[938] Yeah.

[939] And I think it's for some, not to get all our artsy -fartsy, but that's the one time that this piece or whatever thing is completely my interpretation.

[940] Yeah.

[941] Because if I do book it, it's going to be somebody else's interpretation.

[942] And so that's the one time that I have total freedom to do my idea of that.

[943] Yes.

[944] And then it's handed over to somebody else to mold.

[945] Yeah.

[946] And so that's kind of having that thought about it.

[947] Yeah.

[948] I also, in the last couple years, I've gotten to the point where it's like, I finally believe in what I can do, and I can go there and offer the thing I do, and they may or may not like it, and that's that.

[949] Like, there's no, I have to jump six foot seven inches or I don't qualify for this thing.

[950] It's just like, I have a thing I have a thing I offer and it may or may not be the thing you're looking for and it's not deeper than that yeah and it's so easy to say i mean right right these are things that i wish i mean talking about it is so fun but in that moment it's like damn it where are those tools i'm i'm feeling insecure i'm giving these people a lot of power over my life you know it's like it's a constant reminder for me i'll add one thing too that differs to the fact that we do interview for three years to work for two months also at our interviews you can hear the person before you.

[951] Why don't they have soundproof walls on auditions?

[952] It's awful.

[953] I mean, just imagine you're there to meet for vice president or whatever.

[954] And you can hear the entire fucking interview.

[955] And the laughs.

[956] Oh, the laughs.

[957] You can hear the laughs.

[958] And then the worst is when casting directors, and by the, I mean, we obviously have really kind casting directors that we work with.

[959] But when they come out and they start talking to other people.

[960] When I was in New York, doing commercials, just like, so good to see you.

[961] And you're next.

[962] And you're just like, you don't know me. I'm not going to give you that.

[963] Yeah.

[964] I'm like, don't do that.

[965] Yeah.

[966] I know.

[967] Hey, Ray, did you patch that hole in your boat?

[968] Fuck, I thought we were going to definitely sink.

[969] Oh, what was your name, Dex?

[970] Yeah, we're ready for you.

[971] Or if they're in there for a half hour, that happens so often.

[972] It's like, you can hear they're working with them.

[973] Then you go in and it's like once.

[974] And you're like, well, don't you want to, because you just, I know you did.

[975] Totally.

[976] And then they go, hey, thanks so much for coming in.

[977] Like, that was 30 seconds.

[978] Okay.

[979] Okay.

[980] Don't do the second scene?

[981] No, that's known.

[982] Yeah, are you sure?

[983] Because I prepared it.

[984] I have this one experience where I was, it was like an animated movie years ago.

[985] And they were so excited to see me. They're like, oh, my gosh, we're so excited.

[986] You're coming in.

[987] It's going to be so great.

[988] And I did it.

[989] And they just go, hey, thanks for coming in.

[990] And you could see that expectation just bomb.

[991] And you're like, sorry.

[992] Can I ask you, was it at Fox for Christian something?

[993] Was his name Christian?

[994] No, it was at, I remember.

[995] It was not at Fox.

[996] Okay.

[997] It was like one of those sound recordings places.

[998] Because I had one of those things where it's like, they want you an Ice Age, one of the Ice Ages.

[999] They want you, they're offering you this.

[1000] They just want you to come in and work with a couple of the voices.

[1001] And same thing I got there, he's like, oh, I love your stuff.

[1002] You're going to be so good in this.

[1003] This is great.

[1004] I mean, we know it's you, blah, blah.

[1005] And then I just obviously did a terrible job because I didn't get it.

[1006] Never a callback.

[1007] That's happened to me three times on animated stuff.

[1008] And, you know, that made me think of, like, the power of words and how people in Hollywood, and I wouldn't even say Hollywood, I'd say everywhere.

[1009] We just don't know the power of our words.

[1010] Like, people throw out words that are, I remember going on this audition.

[1011] The director at the end of it stood up, started clapping, and goes, okay, when I book you, da -da -da -da -da -da.

[1012] And I don't remember anything else.

[1013] All I heard was when I book you.

[1014] So I remember calling my wife and being like, we're going to have to get daycare in Vancouver because they're shooting in Vancouver.

[1015] Needless to say, I didn't get it.

[1016] I'm buying a boat, hon. I just bought a boat.

[1017] I didn't get it.

[1018] But it's like, don't say those words, man. Don't say those words.

[1019] I know people are trying to be kind.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] But there's so much power in words and if it's hard to say no. It's very hard to say no, but it helps the person if you.

[1022] Let's also give them the most benefit of the doubt possible and be most generous.

[1023] He might have really meant it.

[1024] Totally.

[1025] And I do think he, I probably, oh, absolutely.

[1026] And I don't think he was just trying to be kind.

[1027] I really think he might have.

[1028] meant it.

[1029] But you got to have the forethought of, you don't know where this is going to go.

[1030] Just those words, because we're actors, emotional actors, I will hold on to that word.

[1031] Yeah.

[1032] You know, and I will run with it.

[1033] Oh, I'll build a whole next two years of my life based on that, right?

[1034] Yes.

[1035] Because you're going to Vancouver and then you're doing that movie, then you're going to get this and then you're going to blah, blah, blah.

[1036] Yes.

[1037] Well, yeah, because in auditions, even if they don't say words, you're searching.

[1038] Yes.

[1039] You're like, are they smiling at you?

[1040] Like, you just want anything to let you know, like, did I do a good job or did I do a bad job?

[1041] If you heard a chuckle, I will carry that chuckle for the next two weeks.

[1042] But they laughed.

[1043] They liked it because they laughed.

[1044] Totally.

[1045] I think they're going to call me back.

[1046] Yes.

[1047] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1048] So when you're in New York, were you doing comedy?

[1049] Yeah, sketch comedy.

[1050] This group called King Baby.

[1051] Okay.

[1052] That was made up of Susan Isaacs and Todd Wilkerson and Jeannie Gaffigan now.

[1053] Jim's wife?

[1054] Jim's wife, yes.

[1055] Oh, okay.

[1056] And we had this group called King Baby and just would do sketches and really enjoyed it and it was fun.

[1057] And then I went to the Barrow Group.

[1058] This place got The Barrow Group and it was a gift because they kind of brought back the idea of play.

[1059] I think in these acting schools a lot of times it's like, hey, your work, man. Your work is amazing.

[1060] You're great work.

[1061] And it's like this real kind of heaviness and the Barrow Group brought back this play aspect of it.

[1062] Again, I go back to the anxiety.

[1063] I'm already so living in giving it an unrealistic weight and importance and anxiety and work aspect to it and heaviness.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] So to enter, play back into it is its own challenge, is its own work that I have to do.

[1066] Uh -huh.

[1067] You know, so for me, it was like, that was so helpful.

[1068] I'm always amazed improver.

[1069] I didn't really study improv, mainly just did sketch comedy, but to have that free thought of just stuff just not judging yourself and just good.

[1070] going for it and seeing what happens.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] That's something that I, it's hard for me. Like, I find like, well, don't say that because that's not necessarily.

[1073] I'll have the whole editor in my mind before I put it out.

[1074] Right.

[1075] Have you thought about doing, even though you're successful now and would not need any of it, doing an improv class just for the experience of letting go?

[1076] Being on Veep has been like such a, working with Matt Walsh, obviously, who created UCB.

[1077] Yeah.

[1078] When I first came here and doing a rest of development, it was a, a big learning curve for me. And I look back at that experience.

[1079] I think I had a false idea of what it was going to be.

[1080] And Veep was just the opposite for me. It was, I think I lived in a lot of insecurity and arrested.

[1081] And VEP, I was a lot more just like watching people and learning.

[1082] And rather than being intimidated by, I was just kind of learning.

[1083] And Matt just, even an idea of an improv, it's not like bits.

[1084] It's not to, obviously, we all know this, but to be funny.

[1085] He would just have very natural responses.

[1086] Like if somebody threw out like, oh my gosh, there is a hippo next to you, you know, or something, he wouldn't have, he wouldn't feel the need to add something funny on top of that.

[1087] He would always be like, wow, that's, that's unusual or just a very honest response.

[1088] And being around that many people on VEP, it was a real class for me. Yeah.

[1089] Monica, did you know that Tony was in the Mr. Robot commercial, the VW commercial, the very famous.

[1090] No, I don't even know if I know it.

[1091] You do.

[1092] I'll look it up.

[1093] No. I'm going to look it up.

[1094] Okay, that was a fun fact.

[1095] So how did you get on Arrested Development?

[1096] What was the steps that got you back?

[1097] So I found these kind people to send me out for stuff other than commercials, and the audition for Arrested came around, and I was such a funny script, and it reminded me of Christopher Guest stuff, and I was a huge Christopher guest fan.

[1098] But just thinking that's not going to happen.

[1099] And you were in New York at the time.

[1100] At the time, you would send VHS tapes overseas and, you know, wonder if it gets eyes on it.

[1101] And then Mitch Hurwitz describes it that the camera stopped at my waist and then Buster would massage people a lot.

[1102] So I started massaging my knees.

[1103] And he had the thing of like, what is he doing down there?

[1104] Because they couldn't see.

[1105] And so it piqued his interest.

[1106] So anyways, but then they brought me out and I was so overwhelmed.

[1107] And I remember I got it.

[1108] And I was not expecting to shoot the pilot because they shot the pilot.

[1109] pilot while we were out there.

[1110] So they brought me out as a call back and then we shot the pilot.

[1111] Oh, wow.

[1112] I specifically remember running out of underwear and had to buy underwear at Old Navy.

[1113] And then, and I just got engaged to my wife in New York and then came back to New York in 10 days before we got married, the show got picked up.

[1114] We moved out to L .A. My wife was a makeup artist in S &L at the time.

[1115] So she really, you know, sacrificed a lot to move out to Los Angeles.

[1116] Yeah.

[1117] And we were both just kind of in this, all right, let's do it.

[1118] let's see what happens.

[1119] I talk about this a lot.

[1120] You ever have that feeling like you talk about something so much that people are tired of?

[1121] Oh, no, I do talk about the same thing so often.

[1122] People are tired of it.

[1123] But arrested was really made a big difference in my life because not just career -wise, but my whole time in New York, I was like, getting a sitcom was my big thing.

[1124] That's what you wanted.

[1125] That's what I wanted in my life.

[1126] I wanted a sitcom.

[1127] And whatever I was going through, I was like, but that sitcom's coming.

[1128] And I got it, and it didn't satisfy me the way I. thought it was going to satisfy me. And it really scared me. And it really woke me up.

[1129] And I realized, not at the time on arrested, but after arrested was over, I had my daughter.

[1130] And one thing babies do is they force you to be present because you have to keep them alive.

[1131] They'll die.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] And I just woke up to the fact that I had not been present for most of my life, or at least practicing being present and arrested I gave it such weight getting on a getting the show and nothing can match that weight and that thing if you're not practicing content where you are you're not going to be content when you get what you want and I had just not been very practicing that leading up to that and I just I'm so thankful and that's when I just realized how much I had checked out with anxiety checked out with false expectations and it had nothing to do with the rest it had nothing to with the cast.

[1134] It had nothing to do with the scripts.

[1135] I was on a great show.

[1136] It had to do with me. I had to wake up to some things.

[1137] Well, I relate deeply in that for 28 years I had a fairy tale in my mind that was making lots of money and entertaining people.

[1138] And I knew how I was going to feel when I was doing that.

[1139] I knew it because I had been fantasizing about it forever.

[1140] And lo and behold, I, no feeling accompanied the success.

[1141] I didn't wake up and feel differently in the morning.

[1142] I didn't see someone different in the mirror.

[1143] I didn't.

[1144] I could buy pizza and I didn't care what the price of gas was.

[1145] That was the only thing that practically changed, you know?

[1146] And that was incredibly disillusioning to me. Totally.

[1147] And it's when you wake up to that, because, you know, we have gotten our dream.

[1148] Yes.

[1149] My dream was to be an actor.

[1150] And when you wake up to the reality of it in that.

[1151] And granted, so, thanks.

[1152] thankful.

[1153] Yes.

[1154] But the weight...

[1155] Still the best job in the world.

[1156] Sure, but the unrealistic weight I've given it, it was really scary to...

[1157] And my default in life is checked out.

[1158] My default is somewhere else.

[1159] It takes work for me to be where I am.

[1160] And what are your tools you use to isolate?

[1161] I'll be somewhere else in my head.

[1162] I think that's a big thing.

[1163] And dealing with stuff as we were growing up as children when I was called those names when all that kind of stuff you learn like chunk close that door and you disassociate and you disassociate and I think I've disassociated from life a lot and it's more work for me to say I'm right here I'm right here and this so many gifts came out of this but one was I did this years ago I did this children's book Archibald We own it and it's fantastic I love it oh we've read that to our kids probably 25 times yeah but it's about this little chicken who gets a card in the mail that says your big thing is here and he's like where and he goes on all these great adventures but every time he's on an adventure he's like I got to get to my next big thing and this bee travels around with him and it's like you got to just be man you got to just be and then in the end he realizes that the card is right that your big thing is here my big thing is talking to monica and dax right now that's my big thing yeah for me to find the beauty in the ordinary all that stuff that's that's life yes and that's and I say it's it's so effing easy to say.

[1164] It's really hard to implement, but I think I talk about it so much as a reminder.

[1165] Like, this is my big thing right here.

[1166] Yes, I agree.

[1167] And I think I am annoyingly, incessantly talking about all this stuff, the emotional stuff, what's happening, what are my resentments, what is someone triggering to me?

[1168] What do you represent for my child at all that?

[1169] And it seems nauseating, but if I'm not doing that, and I just assume if I put it in neutral, I'll end up coasting to a great place.

[1170] I won't.

[1171] I know it.

[1172] What you guys do all the time is getting your eyes off yourself and asking questions and finding out from somebody else.

[1173] Speaking of Conan, I remember another time I was on, I was behind the curtain and I felt a panic attack coming on.

[1174] This was years ago.

[1175] And I was like, oh shit, I have a choice.

[1176] I can either bolt or I can do something.

[1177] And I remember there was two guys, you know how two guys were opening the curtain when you go out and there were two guys and I started to ask them questions and I was like oh where are you guys from how long you've been doing here and I remember specifically saying oh someone should do a documentary behind the curtain just kind of see what happens but just drilling them with questions and they were probably like God why is this guy doing this and then the curtains opened and I went out getting my head off me and somebody else like took me out of that panic yeah the cool thing is that this book became a cartoon on Netflix and it premiered I guess in September.

[1178] And now Archibald sees everything like a big thing.

[1179] Oh.

[1180] He walks around and he sees the best in everyone, the best in every situation.

[1181] He has a yes and attitude towards life.

[1182] Everything is a big thing.

[1183] And he is just my role model.

[1184] He's super cute too on top of everything.

[1185] He's awesome.

[1186] He's a little dingy, but he's just so sweet.

[1187] Have you followed any of Bill Hater's interviews?

[1188] Yeah, I saw the one about where with the anxiety kind of the making it a friend and or just kind of like the silly monster that's come up.

[1189] Yeah.

[1190] And on Stern, he talks a lot about his time on Saturday Night Live.

[1191] I mean, it was torture for him.

[1192] That's so, there's also a great book called Grasping for Airtime, but he talked about his panic, and I think one time he had a panic attack and ran all the way from 30 Rock to the West Village or something, just in panic.

[1193] That's called Grasping for Airtime, and it was a play on, obviously, Airtlemon, but also his anxiety.

[1194] Yeah.

[1195] The great title.

[1196] Yeah, it's just really counterintuitive.

[1197] I think all of us, on the outside, assume all these performers are just, like, have some level of confidence and self -assuredness that, and then they don't.

[1198] The beautiful thing about all this is the fact that something so hard can be turned into something productive.

[1199] It was not an easy path growing up in the South.

[1200] It was not an easy path with anxiety, you know, my own family stuff.

[1201] That wasn't easy.

[1202] But it's like to use it and to, you know, to.

[1203] create stories and hopefully find authenticity in certain characters.

[1204] Like, what a great thing.

[1205] Yeah.

[1206] You know, not easy, but like, it's cool to see the full circle sometimes of it.

[1207] So you come off of a rest of development, and a rest of development is, as everyone knows, it's a cult sensation.

[1208] It's such a brilliant show.

[1209] I was late on it, which actually I liked because I got to kind of binge it.

[1210] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1211] So, so funny and wonderful.

[1212] And then what an incredibly talented group.

[1213] Everyone there, you know, had the ability to.

[1214] of their own show.

[1215] When it ended, there's a good gap between that and VEP.

[1216] How many years?

[1217] Maybe six years?

[1218] Yeah.

[1219] And you worked and you were busy through all that.

[1220] But were you, did you have any panic of like, oh, yeah?

[1221] And the month after arrested was canceled, we bought a house.

[1222] And my daughter was born.

[1223] Oh, and I was like, oh, well.

[1224] Because it's, you know, I think even though I know we're freelancers and even though I know were job to job and arrested was never secure in the ratings.

[1225] You get very used to a structure.

[1226] You get very used to having a job to something like that.

[1227] And I got familiar with it.

[1228] And then when it canceled, I was like, whoa, that really scared me. There was one time specifically we thought we were going to have to sell our house.

[1229] And it was just, it was very, it continues to be gig to gig, but it was really tight.

[1230] And right after we bought our house, the market dropped.

[1231] Oh, like 2007 or something.

[1232] Yeah, because we bought it in 2006.

[1233] Yeah, same here.

[1234] And it took, I think, 10 years to get back to the price that we sold it.

[1235] Oh, wow.

[1236] And so it was a tricky time.

[1237] And then it was, I guess, 2011 is when Veep came around.

[1238] Okay, so then before that, and you touched on it, your daughter arrives.

[1239] Yeah.

[1240] I have to assume that we had a similar experience, which is, oh, the fantasy I had about having the TV show money, that feeling I thought I was going to get actually exists within this little human.

[1241] just the desire I had to be present with my daughter and finding that it was really challenging to be present with her and that's like just that like no I want to be here but I found myself just checking out out of fear and am I ready for this and what the hell's happening and where's the money going to come from but I was like no no no no no no this is my daughter I want to be here and just that constant tension so if anything it was just that reminder of like all right now you got on your face something you really need to begin working on and then that's when I got into some therapy and stuff I don't know about you but I am I'm pretty goal oriented so it's like you have this baby you bring them home and you're like okay they're going to sleep the first three or four weeks I guess that's going to happen you know we got to get them on their stomach we got to roll them on their stomach and that's what we got to do we got to do that for however many minutes a day right yeah and then we're looking for when they can pick their back up or chest up off their arm so I'm monitoring that rannizing yeah and I'm working on it.

[1242] And it's like, we got that.

[1243] Okay, I'm like, okay, now she's got to be able to roll on her back, right?

[1244] Yeah.

[1245] Then she's got to crawl and then she's got to walk.

[1246] And I had to, and I still have to do this.

[1247] I was like, stop the checklist of development.

[1248] Stop.

[1249] Because all it's making me do is look forward to that next thing that we're going to accomplish.

[1250] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1251] And I just have to go like, no, this is the thing.

[1252] Every moment is the thing.

[1253] And also for me, first of all, I love that.

[1254] I think there's a real beauty to that of just like, because to me, that's treasuring those steps.

[1255] I think that's great.

[1256] My challenge, in addition to other stuff, but it's like I, the fact that I don't see something and create a whole narrative of what I think that's going to become.

[1257] Oh, this is happening.

[1258] So this must mean this is the direction she's going in or this is.

[1259] And it's like, whoa, wait, none of this has happened, Tony.

[1260] Right.

[1261] Let's just be right here at 13.

[1262] You know, let's not create this whole narrative when she's 21.

[1263] You know, it's like, no, no, no. Just stay here.

[1264] Yeah.

[1265] That's, it's just constant for me. I would imagine you are always on high alert for any proof that she has anxiety.

[1266] High alert for anxiety and because there's addiction in my family as well.

[1267] So codependency is and kind of things not feeling safe is for me. So the challenge is to not look around the corner as to what's coming.

[1268] Right.

[1269] So this 13, this might be good now, but when's it going to turn?

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] What's around the corner that something's going to happen?

[1272] And that is, that's a big challenge for me as well.

[1273] Yeah.

[1274] I will say, and I'm sure you can relate to this, it's given me a purpose that I've never, I've never thought I could love something.

[1275] Like, I mean, I adore my wife, but it's more of a part, it's a partnership that we have.

[1276] Yeah.

[1277] With a child, there is this crazy love.

[1278] Yeah.

[1279] And purposeful living that it was so amazing.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] My thought on it is it's like, it's the first thing I've linked my identity to that actually is substantive.

[1282] There is a real identity.

[1283] there.

[1284] Her father, their father, is a real thing.

[1285] It can't be taken away by NBC or by an opening box office or anything.

[1286] It's just, it's one of the few identity touchstones I have that are actually legitimate.

[1287] Yeah, and also how supernatural it is.

[1288] I mean, not to get back into the God thing.

[1289] Yeah, let's do it.

[1290] How supernatural it is, just creating this baby and how everything had to work together.

[1291] To me, the intelligent, force that had to come from that, but also the love that I have for this child is such a reminder for me of how much the love God has towards me as my father.

[1292] Yes.

[1293] It's such a reminder of like, wow, I believe the love he has for me is so much more.

[1294] Yes.

[1295] You know, and that's always a reminder for me, not to get into, turning into a devotional, but.

[1296] Well, because I'm kind of experiencing similar things but through a different route, which is I would imagine when you feel the unconditional love for your child and you go oh that's how god looks at me i don't need to be beating myself up to the level i'm beating myself up yes and there's i love you said that because this therapist once said to me because you know all the self -negative self -talk we do to ourselves and he says you know if think of when loy was eight and she came up to you and she said dad i'm feeling kind of insecure i'm feeling this i would be like honey you are so worth everything and you're so loved and you're so beautiful.

[1297] Talk to, he's like, talk to yourself like you would, your daughter, if she came up to you like that.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] And it's like, yeah, I don't talk to myself that way.

[1300] Oh, God, no. It's almost like imagining how I self -talk.

[1301] Just imagine what I would say to my daughter and try it saying that to yourself.

[1302] Oh, my other first -hand experience with it is AA, which is like I have many times someone sits down for the first time and they just got out of jail and they killed their best friend drunk driving.

[1303] My first thought is, ooh, this person's struggling.

[1304] I can't imagine the weight of this.

[1305] I have compassion, I have love, I have, here's, let's make sure this never happens.

[1306] Yeah, yeah.

[1307] And I always say, like, God, if I could treat myself half as nice as I would treat a newcomer at a meeting.

[1308] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1309] I would be so much happier.

[1310] Right.

[1311] You have such a beautiful community around you.

[1312] It's nice when you have, having a child of, like, I'm not doing this alone.

[1313] Yeah.

[1314] That's another kind of thing I can fall into of kind of like, how am I going to screw up?

[1315] I just.

[1316] You're not the only force in her life.

[1317] I'm not the only force in her life and going back to God of like, He's with me. We're not meant to do this alone.

[1318] Right.

[1319] You know, I feel like I'm, I don't mean to get into preaching mode.

[1320] No, it doesn't sound preaching at all.

[1321] I give a ton of time to people who don't believe.

[1322] And I myself in a voice, but I actually really appreciate.

[1323] You're not telling other people to do that.

[1324] You're just saying this is how it affects your life.

[1325] In our society, there's such a praise of independence.

[1326] It's like, I can do this.

[1327] I can do this on my own.

[1328] And we forget healthy dependence.

[1329] Yeah.

[1330] It's okay to need each other.

[1331] It's okay to, say, I can't do this alone.

[1332] I can't do this by myself.

[1333] Yeah.

[1334] It's so prized to your point that I in the past have found myself like just leaving out really crucial people to anything I've done that was successful.

[1335] It's like I can't even, I've got to hoard all that because that is the prize, the self -made man who does this and that.

[1336] And you just kind of, you know, you just leave certain people out of the story.

[1337] And it's like, who's kidding who?

[1338] Like there's so many.

[1339] nobody gets where they are without help let me just celebrate you for five minutes ten minutes can I please don't okay please don't or you'll be that eight -year -old child talking about um Veep is another thing that we started a little late right there's two seasons out and then we we both watched it and we're like oh well this is hands down the best comedy on television and it has been for years your guys's relationship just kind of grew and grew and grew and grew and And obviously you spent the most time with Julia, yeah, of any of the cast members?

[1340] Yeah, and I know she's been on here.

[1341] Uh -huh.

[1342] And I just worship her, like, ungodly amount.

[1343] She's, she's, there's so many things to say about her, but the immediate thing that comes to mind is, who's ever number one on the call sheet sets the mood for the entire experience?

[1344] Uh -huh.

[1345] And she's obviously number one.

[1346] She set an environment of, hey, you throw out an idea, even if it's a bad idea, it's welcome we're a family we're our team let's be kind and i cannot tell you what a gift that was the show because we've all been on whatever job where it's sometimes there's entitlement there's arrogance and it just sucks creative energy out of a space yeah everybody's walking on eggshells it was just the opposite and she really set that tone and i am forever grateful for that and she's funny and normal and her family's our first priority and all that yeah she's shockingly normal i've elevated her to such a level of talent that I think I was shocked that she's a pretty normal person.

[1347] And as a producer, I don't know if she talked about this, but she would work the writer so closely that if something wasn't working, you could see her brain just go, no, this needs to be shifted and this needs to, we need to mess this up, like it needs to be, she had that part in her that was like, this is too mechanical sounding or written.

[1348] Uh -huh.

[1349] She had like a structural awareness.

[1350] And she's very invested in politics, So she was like, this doesn't sound grounded.

[1351] This doesn't sound believable.

[1352] Yeah.

[1353] You know, all that kind of stuff.

[1354] The show also has, and I still don't.

[1355] It's a mystery to me, and I'm grateful that it exists.

[1356] But it has some cover fire in that you guys get away with absolute murder.

[1357] I mean, I just, the last season, Monica and I were watching, I was like, I mean, they get away with murder.

[1358] Do you have a theory on why?

[1359] You know, yeah, I do because she's an awful human being.

[1360] Selena is an atrocious human being.

[1361] And really everybody is.

[1362] Everybody's out for themselves.

[1363] Even Gary's out for himself.

[1364] And so they don't have any empathy.

[1365] She uses school shootings to help her campaign.

[1366] It's an atrocious.

[1367] And I remember when I read that, I was like, ha.

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] Guys, I just, I made mine hail her.

[1370] You know, that's a lot.

[1371] But it's like, you know it's coming from her.

[1372] So it's just, it's awful.

[1373] Uh -huh.

[1374] And so I think that's kind of the permission that she has no sensitivity to it.

[1375] Right, right.

[1376] I just wondered if you guys as the actors, if there was ever like, is this the day?

[1377] Like, what, you know, is this the day we go too far?

[1378] That was probably, that was, I remember that day when I read that.

[1379] And that was a, that was a tricky one.

[1380] But I just, I just remembered who it's coming.

[1381] I mean, this is not us saying this.

[1382] Yes.

[1383] This is a take on people using an atrocious event for their own good.

[1384] Which happens.

[1385] Which happens.

[1386] Oh, yeah.

[1387] Absolutely.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] But it was, I'd say there was a lot of those times.

[1390] And funny enough, my character was given the faith -based initiative, like, as kind of the religious right foundation of her campaign.

[1391] And Gary was, you know, his faith was important to him.

[1392] And she just said awful stuff to me, you know, but it was just funny.

[1393] Okay, so Archibald, what's the full name of the Netflix show?

[1394] Archibald's next big thing.

[1395] Archibald's next big thing.

[1396] So that's currently on Netflix.

[1397] And then what else?

[1398] What else you got coming up?

[1399] What else is coming down the pipeline?

[1400] I'm trying to stay present, guys.

[1401] No, that is another thing, just side note.

[1402] That's as freelancers.

[1403] It's not a trigger, but it's a question you do get.

[1404] Oh, yeah.

[1405] And you're not only you trying to work on being present, but you're encouraged to not be.

[1406] Yeah, it's the hustle.

[1407] It's always a hustle.

[1408] And I fall into that every day.

[1409] I'm only asking because I'd hate for you to be here to promote something, and I didn't give it a lot.

[1410] lot of service.

[1411] No, I'm so glad you did.

[1412] I mean, that's so nice, but it made me, it made me think of that.

[1413] There's this play I'm doing in San Francisco, Wiki, Wiki at the American Conservatory Theater.

[1414] It's Exambiki.

[1415] It's Eximbiki.

[1416] What's it about?

[1417] It's this guy who's at the end of his life, is written by Willie, you know, slightly a one -person show.

[1418] This nurse comes in halfway, and we have a really fun stuff together, but it's, I don't know, it's a take on kind of end -of -life and thoughts and thinking about life and all that kind of.

[1419] And do you have to memorize two hours?

[1420] Yeah.

[1421] Yeah, not two hours, it's an hour.

[1422] Still, but, man, it's, uh, one hour.

[1423] It's, I'm staying present.

[1424] I'm trying to stay here because it's like, my narrative goes to these places of, oh, people are going to pay for a public panic attack.

[1425] You know, it's like, it's like that kind of thing.

[1426] And it's, I don't want to live in that because I really love theater and I'm excited about it.

[1427] Have you ever taken propan and all?

[1428] I've heard about it.

[1429] So, Kristen is very open about it.

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] If she's like hosting a, uh, an award show.

[1432] She takes it and has zero effect on her, like, alertness.

[1433] There's no, there's no body sensation to taking it.

[1434] It just prevents your heart rate from getting to a point where your brain starts shifting, thinking from frontal lobe to reptilian brain.

[1435] Yeah.

[1436] She's had incredible success with it.

[1437] That's really good to hear, actually.

[1438] Mine is more that I'm going to go blank.

[1439] Mm -hmm.

[1440] Uh -huh.

[1441] And that all, everything is just going to, you're just going to forget it.

[1442] And it's just me on that stage.

[1443] Yes.

[1444] That's, I think, where I'm like...

[1445] A, you should have that fear.

[1446] I don't think anyone's setting out to be solo on the stage for an hour.

[1447] If it's just you, you can just then decide what the rest of the play is.

[1448] Who cares?

[1449] You should start digging your improv classes now.

[1450] Exactly.

[1451] So I think...

[1452] But a friend of mine takes it and I might...

[1453] Yeah, I'm going to look into it.

[1454] I've convinced my story about myself is I need to feel a little of that panic to be alert enough to do the thing I do well.

[1455] Yeah.

[1456] Which might be a lie.

[1457] I'm like, maybe do just fine.

[1458] without having that, a little bit of panic.

[1459] But I think that's not a lie, because anxiety is redirected excitement.

[1460] I mean, there is something, or not always, but like for theater, I am excited about it, but the anxiety gets a little redirected.

[1461] Right.

[1462] There is a part of it, don't want to lose that.

[1463] And I do think it's what you're kind of doing.

[1464] So, like, in my case, I'll generally get a healthy dose of it before our live shows.

[1465] Like, we're going to Nashville this weekend.

[1466] We'll do this live back to back.

[1467] And it's all improv and that there's nothing memorized.

[1468] So I need to be a little panic to fucking wake whatever part of my brain up that works fast.

[1469] But in a situation where it's like you're doing a performance, I don't know that you need that, you know?

[1470] What do you go to when, or either of you go to when you're about to walk out?

[1471] When you walk, you get very overwhelmed.

[1472] Do you go meta?

[1473] And it's like, you know, we're spinning on a planet and all that kind of stuff.

[1474] There's three things.

[1475] This may suck and I'll live.

[1476] And everyone here will live.

[1477] Oh, man, that's nice.

[1478] two, I will force myself to do my Transcendental Meditation mantra and just breathe for five minutes and then the big mega help is our friend Bob Murvac plays live most of the shows and if we lock into what he's playing he's so beautiful and it's so impressive that we will forget we're about to go out or at least that happens for me. If Monica and I start smiling and screaming about Bob's brilliance then I'm like oh we're totally good we can walk out there now because we're just now going out to celebrate how great he just was, and then everything else just happens.

[1479] But those are kind of my, what are your tricks?

[1480] I never get nervous.

[1481] I mean, I get nervous all the time when, like, for acting and things like that performing, but I never get nervous for these live shows ever, mainly because you're doing all the heavy lifting, so I don't have to do all that much.

[1482] But I just feel like this is something we know how to do.

[1483] And there's no risk, like what's going to happen?

[1484] happen for us.

[1485] Like, we're just talking to another person.

[1486] So at the very least, you can say, like, tell me about your hometown and let them talk and then figure out, you know, like, it just doesn't feel.

[1487] Do you ever say something on the podcast where it's out and you wonder, oh, shit, what could that become?

[1488] Oh, for sure.

[1489] Well, it's also happened.

[1490] Things have become other things.

[1491] Is it something that you have to kind of, you have techniques to be like, let me not jump on that train, you know, and kind of create the.

[1492] catastrophic scenarios and stuff.

[1493] My big technique there is, does anyone in my friendship circle not know this about me?

[1494] Does my wife not know this about me?

[1495] Is this anything new to anyone I care about?

[1496] And do I know their reactions?

[1497] And if I can honestly go, no, the people that I have in my life will think nothing of this, then I just have to let it go.

[1498] And you're going to be loved the exact same by those people.

[1499] Right.

[1500] Now, I may not be loved by as, many strangers, but I just, that's okay.

[1501] Yeah.

[1502] But we generally don't ever police in the moment.

[1503] No. It's after when we're editing, where it's like, what do you keep?

[1504] What do you not?

[1505] Because in the moment, you want to just be as vulnerable and open and you're as honest as anyone in the world.

[1506] And then we have to decide what stays.

[1507] And that's where it gets like, should we leave this part in?

[1508] Is this a little on the edge?

[1509] But generally, we have only gotten good response.

[1510] Like Monica said one time, we had Casey Affleck on and she pointed out that Monica's said, we have to also acknowledge women.

[1511] They're just as human as men and all people lie.

[1512] And I knew that people weren't going to like it, but he had a response, an immediate response that I thought was beautiful and good and helpful to people.

[1513] So I left that in for that reason.

[1514] And then I said in the fact check why, I said, I know no one's going to like that.

[1515] And I normally would have cut something like that out, but I left it as sort of an act of generosity, but people didn't care and it did not.

[1516] People did not like it.

[1517] And it was rough.

[1518] And I understand it.

[1519] Yeah.

[1520] But to feel misunderstood and that's hard.

[1521] Yeah.

[1522] There's a great, there's another thing that made me think of, the box breathing, have you guys heard of the box breathing?

[1523] When you kind of do face that overwhelmed thing is you breathe in for five, hold for five, breathe out for five, and then rest for five.

[1524] And it slows your heartbeat down a little bit.

[1525] Oh, that's good.

[1526] That's also a go -to -sleep technique I've used.

[1527] Or it's like, but it's actually, I think in this one, it's like, breathe in for three seconds, like hold for seven seconds or five seconds and then exhale for five or seven seconds.

[1528] So then the breathing is pretty quick.

[1529] Then the hold is the same as the exhale.

[1530] And that's also supposed to regulate your shit.

[1531] Yeah, that's good.

[1532] I admire, though, that you kept that in.

[1533] Thank you.

[1534] Me too.

[1535] I know that because it was an honest response.

[1536] Even if you question it, it's a human thing.

[1537] Yeah.

[1538] Thanks.

[1539] The first time she had gone through that, so I had already shit the bed publicly many times over the years, whether I tweeted something or whatever.

[1540] And so I have felt that rash before.

[1541] And so there's no getting out of how it feels the first time you go through that.

[1542] It's just, it's painful.

[1543] And it hurts to, yeah, to be misunderstood or for people to draw a conclusion about your character based on something.

[1544] Yeah.

[1545] Well, Tony, we love you.

[1546] We've been trying to get you now for, I want to say, a year we've been reaching.

[1547] Yeah, we are just huge fans.

[1548] I think you're so brilliant.

[1549] I'm so excited for whatever you do next.

[1550] It'll be something.

[1551] I hope you at least now operate from a place of like, oh, yeah, I'll stay employed.

[1552] I think I'm getting more to a place, actually, of even if I'm not employed, I'll be okay.

[1553] Right.

[1554] Yeah, that's good.

[1555] I don't know if I'm there, but that's where I'd like to be.

[1556] Yeah, you're right.

[1557] That's probably even better.

[1558] Yeah, that's healthy.

[1559] Well, but it's not natural, but I'm definitely working on that place.

[1560] And your wife, though, has also had a lot of success, right?

[1561] She won an Emmy as well.

[1562] Yeah, she won an Emmy, and if I had publicity stuff, she'll do my makeup.

[1563] Oh, that's really cute.

[1564] Yeah, it's cute.

[1565] Yeah, she's not a makeup artist.

[1566] But with Loy, these are years where I have to travel, and it's a real gift to have her with Loy.

[1567] Right.

[1568] And she loves it.

[1569] Right.

[1570] All right, well, I adore you.

[1571] You're as sweet as your person, as Ryan Hanson told me. Nice.

[1572] Yeah.

[1573] And I hope you'll come back when you, whatever thing you do next.

[1574] I love that.

[1575] Thank you for creating a very comfortable environment.

[1576] Oh, our pleasure.

[1577] Yes.

[1578] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1579] I cleared my throat just before we started, and it sounded like, I went, and it sounded like, is that from Star Wars?

[1580] No, I think it's more like a war battle song, isn't it?

[1581] I associate it with flying footage.

[1582] Oh.

[1583] Like World War II flying footage.

[1584] Do you?

[1585] Dun, dun dun da, It's from something, I think.

[1586] It's got to be a famous kind of.

[1587] What is it?

[1588] The hard thing is, it's hard to Google that because you'd be putting done, done, done, done.

[1589] Yeah, and they would think you meant done, dun dun dun, dun.

[1590] Yeah.

[1591] Or they think you meant Don, the name over and over and over again.

[1592] Oh, Don the name.

[1593] Yeah.

[1594] Like Don Johnson.

[1595] Oh, yeah, Dawn Johnson.

[1596] Or D -A -W -N, female Dawn.

[1597] Yes, like Dawn soap.

[1598] Right.

[1599] Yeah.

[1600] My tummy hurts.

[1601] It does?

[1602] A little bit.

[1603] Even though you just took a poop?

[1604] Yeah.

[1605] Well, now I'm nervous about you.

[1606] It's okay.

[1607] Because if you evacuate and your tummy still hurts, that tells me of an intestinal infection.

[1608] Ew.

[1609] Or some microbial something or parasite.

[1610] Oh, I haven't seen it yet.

[1611] It's a great movie.

[1612] And you have it living inside an allergy.

[1613] Ew.

[1614] What is the, can you describe the pain to me or the discomfort?

[1615] It just feel.

[1616] Icky?

[1617] Yeah.

[1618] Oh.

[1619] What have you had today?

[1620] I had a tasty breakfast sandwich.

[1621] Oh, yeah?

[1622] Yeah.

[1623] Wait, did T .T. Make you another one?

[1624] Yeah, I posted a picture of it.

[1625] Oh, I'm sorry, but she had posted a picture yesterday of your breakfast sandwich.

[1626] So you're getting a daily breakfast.

[1627] Yes, I got it two days in a row.

[1628] That's what it said.

[1629] It said she did it again.

[1630] Oh, man. Oh, it's a tasty sandwich.

[1631] And you think something might have been turned in it?

[1632] No, no, no. I don't know.

[1633] I already didn't feel great before the sandwich.

[1634] Okay.

[1635] Now, when you went downstairs, you went into the basement to use the turlet.

[1636] We're not going to talk about it.

[1637] Yes, of course we are.

[1638] All we do is talk about my trips in the bathroom.

[1639] Wait, that's not fair.

[1640] I just want to point out a couple of cute things, which is, first of all, you had to get down in the basement in the corner of the house.

[1641] And then you just started blaring a podcast, right?

[1642] Yeah, because, well, listen, the basement is under your bedroom and you can hear everything.

[1643] If you're in your bedroom and somebody's in the basement working out, you can hear the whole workout.

[1644] Oh, boy.

[1645] When you hear me working out, it's just a series of throat clearing.

[1646] Yeah, it is.

[1647] A couple getchy, getchy goos and a throat clear.

[1648] You can hear everything.

[1649] Top down, down top.

[1650] Okay.

[1651] All of it.

[1652] Don Johnson.

[1653] Top.

[1654] From soup to nuts, from Don to Johnson.

[1655] So I was nervous you were going to be able to hear me. Right.

[1656] You were, you actually.

[1657] thought I could hear maybe some splashes.

[1658] No, I'm...

[1659] That's what you said.

[1660] You might hear some water splashing.

[1661] Which, by the way, if I could hear water actually splashing from downstairs in the corner of the basement, I would come down to high five you.

[1662] No. I'd be like, holy shit, you really fucked up that boeh.

[1663] Ew.

[1664] Stop it.

[1665] This is so gross.

[1666] No, it's not.

[1667] Yes, it is.

[1668] People are eating right now.

[1669] Really?

[1670] Probably.

[1671] They're probably eating breakfast.

[1672] lunch or dinner.

[1673] You know, that's an interesting thought.

[1674] You go into like a Denny's or an IHop or whatever, and sometimes they're playing like a light, you know, non -offensive music on the overheads.

[1675] Yeah.

[1676] Do you think they're ever playing a podcast?

[1677] Probably not right, because podcasts are too polarizing.

[1678] Too specific.

[1679] I don't think so.

[1680] Maybe.

[1681] You could play Malcolm Gladwell's above the loudspeaker.

[1682] Oh my God, I started Malcolm Gladwell's podcast last night.

[1683] It's awesome.

[1684] I listened to one episode that I had been recommended multiple times on memory called Free Brian Williams.

[1685] The episode is called that.

[1686] Free Brian Williams.

[1687] And here's where I was just completely wrong.

[1688] The other day I argued with you and said that talking to strangers must have had a chapter about memory because I saw him on talk shows discussing memory, which now I've now learned.

[1689] I was watching him talk about that episode of the podcast.

[1690] It wasn't from his book.

[1691] I was dead wrong.

[1692] This has been a great experiment in getting over the pain of being wrong.

[1693] Good.

[1694] The last two years.

[1695] Yeah, getting back.

[1696] It's getting easier.

[1697] That's really good, actually.

[1698] Yeah.

[1699] But wait, real quick.

[1700] I want to talk about that episode that I listen to Malcolm Gladwell.

[1701] Yeah, tell me about it.

[1702] Because we actually talk about memory in this episode.

[1703] Oh, okay, great.

[1704] With Tony Hale, I wrote down, we talk about memory.

[1705] Talk about Malcolm episode.

[1706] Then we must have done it.

[1707] You must have.

[1708] Yeah.

[1709] The, uh, yeah.

[1710] Great.

[1711] Great.

[1712] No, no, it's really good.

[1713] And it is about how, you know, we predicate all of our stuff on our memory and we think it's infallible.

[1714] And turns out nobody's memory is infallible.

[1715] Well, some people's are better than others.

[1716] They did say that.

[1717] And even if we don't think it's infallible, we think it's like 70 % accurate, right?

[1718] I don't, I mean, think even for realists, like people who are somewhat critical of memory still probably think it's 70 % accurate.

[1719] Yeah.

[1720] Yeah, I mean, and there are these things called flashbulb memories, which are like these big event memories, like 9 -11 and, you know, Kennedy assassination and stuff.

[1721] The shuttle blowing up.

[1722] Yeah, it's like a timestamp.

[1723] Yeah.

[1724] And then they did this really interesting experiment that Malcolm talks about where they took a bunch of people after 9 -11 the next day they collected their memories of it.

[1725] And then a year later, they got them again.

[1726] They asked them what happened on 9 -11.

[1727] And then, like, 10 years later, they did the same thing.

[1728] And there's so much variance in the memory.

[1729] Uh -huh.

[1730] And people are adamant that they're right.

[1731] They'll literally read a piece of paper of their handwriting and say, like, I don't know why I would have said that.

[1732] That's not true.

[1733] Oh, wow.

[1734] And it's like, it's just so interesting what our brains do.

[1735] You know, I wrote a pretty long document.

[1736] the day of 9 -11.

[1737] You did?

[1738] Yeah, I have it.

[1739] Oh, we should read it on here.

[1740] Yeah, it'll seem braggy or convenient, but I pretty much immediately went from this is horrific to, oh, the government's going to seize this opportunity, and we're going to start harassing people and making it impossible to flow.

[1741] Like, I basically was like, we're going to get carried away like we always do and have an outside reaction to this and start invading people.

[1742] That seems to be your M .O., so I'm not surprised.

[1743] Right, right.

[1744] That's a through line.

[1745] Even you thought that back then.

[1746] Wow.

[1747] Yeah, yeah.

[1748] That's cool.

[1749] I immediately just went like, oh, everyone's on full tilt.

[1750] We all are afraid and we all are very sad that this happened.

[1751] And we're probably going to have an outsized reaction to this thing.

[1752] Because there was this moment too, and you could feel it.

[1753] And it broke my heart.

[1754] The whole world was with us.

[1755] Oh, yeah.

[1756] Around the world, they were doing candle vigil.

[1757] The whole world was with us.

[1758] We had an opportunity to show, like, the most evolved reaction ever.

[1759] And we could have set the course for how the world should respond to these things.

[1760] And it was just a missed opportunity.

[1761] My argument was always, instead of spending $3 trillion on a war effort in Afghanistan and Iraq, what if we had immediately, immediately sent a trillion dollars to Afghanistan for schools and programs?

[1762] to help people come out of poverty.

[1763] What the whole world would have been like, wow, that's a fucking reaction.

[1764] That's like Jesus.

[1765] You know who wouldn't have?

[1766] Who?

[1767] I would say half, if not more.

[1768] Americans would hate it.

[1769] Would never have allowed that to happen.

[1770] I agree.

[1771] But it was, when does an opportunity like that come up?

[1772] It comes up once every 80 years when it's something this horrific happens, right?

[1773] And the whole world's watching.

[1774] And we certainly, we've reacted the exact same way for 10 ,000 years of civilization.

[1775] We know what happens when something horrific goes down.

[1776] We respond with equal violence or more.

[1777] Yeah.

[1778] So we know the outcome.

[1779] I mean, we've done the, we've run the experiment a trillion times.

[1780] And it just begets more and more and more and more violence.

[1781] No one's ever taken that kind of injury and said, we're going to send love as a response.

[1782] Mm -hmm.

[1783] I mean, we would just, I just don't think it would have been possible.

[1784] I know, it's a bummer to.

[1785] Even though people, like, there's a reason everyone loves the message of Jesus.

[1786] It's so powerful to be able to forgive when it's the most hard to forgive.

[1787] That's the elevated aspirational mindset everyone should have.

[1788] Well, I mean, this is a tricky conversation because it, like, yeah, there was a war in retaliation, but it wasn't really a war of retaliation.

[1789] And it was a war on a country that had nothing to do with 9 -11.

[1790] Well, Iraq.

[1791] They used it.

[1792] Yeah, they used it as an opportunity to rile everybody up.

[1793] But again.

[1794] And then causal war not on the people that had anything to do with it.

[1795] By the way, I would still be in huge favor of justice.

[1796] So I still think we give a trillion dollars to Afghanistan to start industries and to educate people and blah, blah, blah.

[1797] I do believe the citizens of that country.

[1798] would be grateful enough to not harbor Osama bin Laden.

[1799] It took us another 10 years to find the dude or however many years because no one was incentivized to help us.

[1800] He was going back and forth to Pakistan.

[1801] But also because we weren't in Afghanistan.

[1802] Yeah, we were in Afghanistan next year.

[1803] Yes, we went there first.

[1804] No. Yeah, 100%.

[1805] We went to Afghanistan first.

[1806] And then a year later, they built a case for going to Iraq, which was preposterous.

[1807] But the war was not on Afghanistan.

[1808] It was.

[1809] Because that's where Osama bin Laden was.

[1810] That's where the, what do you call it was?

[1811] Al -Qaeda.

[1812] Al -Qaeda was in Afghanistan.

[1813] And the Taliban was in charge at that time of Afghanistan.

[1814] And they were saying, no, we're not going to invest.

[1815] We're not going to look for him.

[1816] We're not going to kick out this militia groups.

[1817] Well, first of what happened, which is really fascinating, is this valley where Fallujah is maybe.

[1818] The CIA went with 100 people initially and took over the hardest.

[1819] area of Afghanistan, defeated the Taliban, and the most rugged hardest.

[1820] What's crazy is that this 100 CIA operatives were able to overthrow by just funding the Mujahideen that we'd always hired, and they were successful, but then we went with the whole apparatus of the military, and then we got bogged down and war we're still in.

[1821] But we had a good year of Afghanistan, because that's when Pat Tillman quit the NFL to join to go to Afghanistan, and then by the time he went through boot camp, Now they were going to go to Iraq and he no longer wanted to be in the military because he had not signed up to go to Iraq.

[1822] Anywho.

[1823] Anywho.

[1824] Memory, Brian Williams.

[1825] Yeah, and then the psychologist on that episode were saying their collective general viewpoint, the psychologists who are adept in memory think, yeah, Brian Williams was just recalling that incorrectly.

[1826] But he wasn't lying.

[1827] He wasn't trying to make himself seem like he was involved in something.

[1828] that he wasn't.

[1829] He believed that.

[1830] Yeah.

[1831] And then even there's clips of him afterwards apologizing and saying, like, this was my ego.

[1832] Like, he himself has been now convinced like he was lying.

[1833] Right.

[1834] Which, look, I guess he may have been.

[1835] There's a chance.

[1836] Sure.

[1837] Yeah, all these psychologists are like, no. It's consistent with how memory works what he did.

[1838] Yeah, because don't you also like when you're retelling stories, like a layer gets added and now that becomes permanently embedded in the memory.

[1839] So then the next time you tell that is the baseline and then some other thing can get.

[1840] Yes.

[1841] Yeah, and there's things specifically with flashbulb memories.

[1842] It's extra.

[1843] Okay.

[1844] And that would have been a flashbul memory for him because it was a big event.

[1845] Right.

[1846] So anyway.

[1847] Yeah, I got to say my memory of 9 -11 is very strong.

[1848] I feel like I remember most of that day.

[1849] Me too.

[1850] And then also my first U .S. tour where we're flying around in helicopters and they were shooting at a house while we were in the helicopter.

[1851] Well, I think I have video of that actually.

[1852] Yeah.

[1853] But then, yeah, landing at this base, Abad and us getting off the helicopter and then seeing Apaches come start hovering right above our head and then shoot flares and then missiles into a cave just above us where they had spotted Taliban.

[1854] Yeah, that stuff is like seared into my brain.

[1855] But again, how would I know?

[1856] I know.

[1857] It's crazy.

[1858] I mean, again, I do have video of Nate and I on a rooftop watching them fire into this cave.

[1859] Yeah.

[1860] But I bet.

[1861] But the details might be all wacky and wrong.

[1862] I have to assume I'm as fallible as Brian Williams.

[1863] Yeah.

[1864] It's interesting.

[1865] But it's also like in keeping with this whole conversation of letting people make some mistakes.

[1866] Like people make mistakes.

[1867] And that's okay.

[1868] Yeah.

[1869] Anywho, he was talking about EMDR, which is I'm moving.

[1870] desensitization and reprocessing.

[1871] It's a form of psychotherapy in which a person being treated is asked to recall distressing images.

[1872] The therapist then directs the client in one type of bilateral sensory input, such as side -to -side eye movements or hand -tapping.

[1873] It is included in several evidence -based guidelines for the treatment of post -traumatic stress disorder.

[1874] While multiple media analysis have found it to be just as effective as trauma -focused cognitive behavioral therapy for the treatment of PTSD, these findings are tentative given the low numbers in the studies.

[1875] But he was talking about that.

[1876] But he was saying it changes your right brain to left brain thinking.

[1877] Like it switches your brain into a different part of thinking.

[1878] Right.

[1879] Something was in my head this whole time that I wanted to address.

[1880] Amelia.

[1881] I mean, I guess there's no reason to address it to people here because they listen.

[1882] Right.

[1883] But I just want to say that I am.

[1884] I was so irritated that so many outlets decided to push a narrative that simply wasn't what she said.

[1885] They wanted to say she was pressured into nudity by somebody or thing, presumably.

[1886] And that is not at all what she said.

[1887] That's not what she said, no. And it really pissed me off.

[1888] I hate when we have guests on here that are like honest and open.

[1889] I know.

[1890] They put it through this clickbait headline software and it makes it something it's not.

[1891] I agree.

[1892] But let's tell the happy story.

[1893] So the happy story was Pop Sugar had said, they had a headline similar to that.

[1894] And I retweeted it and said, this is not what she said.

[1895] people who want to know what she said should listen to the episode and so should the author of this tweet and by God the next day they said we were wrong and we've taken it down and then they changed the headline of their article and I was like that that is so encouraging it is because it's weird it's like the media is the fourth estate and it's there to watch the government and make sure that we're knowing everything but then at some time you're like what's the fifth estate who's watching the media us because because they all are incentivized.

[1896] It's a business.

[1897] It's a business.

[1898] It's all a business.

[1899] And it's hard for them to go against their financial interests, which that is.

[1900] Exactly.

[1901] I was very impressed by that.

[1902] Me too.

[1903] I was really happy with their integrity.

[1904] I was too.

[1905] And then I told you to respond and you had already responded in the exact way.

[1906] I wanted you to.

[1907] I know.

[1908] I love when I have already done the thing you would hope I would do.

[1909] Yeah.

[1910] Yeah.

[1911] That's a fun thing.

[1912] Yeah.

[1913] So that is a bummer that that happened.

[1914] with Amelia.

[1915] But yeah, everyone here's already listened to it.

[1916] They know the whole thing.

[1917] They knew that those headlines were horseshit.

[1918] Yeah.

[1919] I mean.

[1920] Also, even one, I read one on CNN.

[1921] It's like, oh, you should definitely respect CNN.

[1922] And it was like, they had some direct quotes were true.

[1923] But then it said, like, she thanks Jason Mamoa for teaching her how to challenge or something.

[1924] I don't know.

[1925] They just, they all of a sudden paraphrase what she said.

[1926] And in their paraphrasing, And, in fact, was not what she was saying.

[1927] Oh, interesting.

[1928] She said he was protective in that he yelled for a robe.

[1929] And that he said, here's how we should do this.

[1930] Yeah.

[1931] But it was, it just...

[1932] He had standards about that, which she liked and appreciated.

[1933] Yes, but what they said is not at all what she said.

[1934] Paraphrasing is tricky.

[1935] It is tricky.

[1936] But it is tricky.

[1937] And then I also, if I'm going to play devil's advocate, I also understand to some extent, like, they have to paraphrase, journalism.

[1938] do when they're when they're you know so there's there's just things that are going to get lost in translations sometimes with these stories but but they are cramming it into a narrative so that all these news all let knows a very popular well -known narrative currently is the me too movement yes and that people are pressured to do things sexually so they're like oh that everyone's clear about that archetype yeah or that architecture let's we'll just plan it right in there this fits perfectly.

[1939] Everyone knows this story.

[1940] Yeah.

[1941] That wasn't the story at all.

[1942] Yeah.

[1943] Any, oh, oh, okay, the Hugh Hefner Bunny Blanket theory.

[1944] So I found two things.

[1945] I found one article, well, one couple articles, saying that when Hugh was a student at Illinois University in the 1940s, his favorite hangout was a bar called Bunny's Tavern, named after its original owner, Bernard Bunny Fitzsimmons.

[1946] Bernie Bunny For Simmons Oh my God Bernard bunny in quotes Yeah but Bernard's go by Bernie Right So he's really Bernie This is another one of these situations where That one doesn't bother me Bernard Bernie That's a that There we go Bunny Oh if they're saying Bunny is a Yeah derivative of Bernard Yeah they are Oh okay I thought maybe he like had cute teeth or something Well I think it is Maybe it's all of it Uh huh He just added up to Bunny Anywho, so a lot of them say that's what bunny is in association with Hugh.

[1947] That's not the one I heard, but continue.

[1948] What did you hear?

[1949] About a blanket.

[1950] No, well, that's what Tony's saying.

[1951] Oh.

[1952] Oh, my God.

[1953] That's the whole point of this.

[1954] Oh, okay.

[1955] Oh, God.

[1956] So I found one article that substantiated what Tony said.

[1957] Oh, okay.

[1958] Said, Playboy Empire founder, Hugh Heapner's childhood, was spending.

[1959] in Nebraska, attached in his earliest years to a bunny blanket.

[1960] His parents were repressed and was so commonly the case in the bitter years of the Great Depression, but worked hard to provide security for their children.

[1961] Young Hugh developed a special love for animals.

[1962] When he was a kid, remembers his brother Keith.

[1963] He wanted to be a veterinarian.

[1964] It was the first job that he ever thought of, I think.

[1965] An interesting animal -related incident occurred around age six.

[1966] Throughout his childhood, Hugh had treasured a special blue and white security blanket featuring a bunny pattern.

[1967] When he came down with the mastoid infection, he received a present from his parents to speed his recovery, a wire -haired fox terrier that he named Browse.

[1968] A little box was set up in the basement and the boy donated his bunny blanket for the dog to sleep on.

[1969] Unfortunately, Browse died about a week later.

[1970] Oh, Jesus.

[1971] And the blanket had to be burned.

[1972] Oh, my.

[1973] He was heartbroken.

[1974] He was heartbroken, but the imagery seems to have stuck with him at some level.

[1975] Later, he would note the Citizen Kane kind of connection here on the bird blanket as he went on to create the Bunny Empire.

[1976] Oh, wow.

[1977] Isn't that interesting?

[1978] A mastoid infection, a dead dog in your keepsake burnt, all within proximity.

[1979] That's a lot of aces.

[1980] No wonder he was horny.

[1981] He's trying to regulate his emotion.

[1982] Yeah.

[1983] Did I ever tell you about the toilet?

[1984] I was going to tell you about it when we were watching John Oliver this week and they showed the room full of toilet.

[1985] Oh, yeah.

[1986] Bree and I had invented a toilet for lovers.

[1987] And it was, the seats would be at like a 45 degree angle to each other.

[1988] Okay.

[1989] And then you could hold hands and stuff while you went poop.

[1990] Oh.

[1991] But then what we realized, because I drew a picture of it, of what it would look like for the design of it.

[1992] Sure.

[1993] Because we wanted to like.

[1994] Implement it?

[1995] Get a patent for it.

[1996] Oh.

[1997] So I drew a picture of it.

[1998] And then I realized, oh, if you raise the toilet seat on it, because it's in this shape, when you raise the toilet seat, it would look like bunny ears.

[1999] Oh.

[2000] So we called the toilet the bunny, a toilet for lovers.

[2001] That's nice.

[2002] Yeah, don't you think that's a good invention?

[2003] That is a good invention.

[2004] But they're not connected, are they?

[2005] They share a common waste drain.

[2006] Oh.

[2007] You know what I'm saying?

[2008] Like, so they join in the back.

[2009] Okay.

[2010] So that they can share the plumbing to go down into the sewer main.

[2011] That's fun.

[2012] Yeah.

[2013] Did you guys ever hold hands while you pooped together?

[2014] Well, we couldn't because there was no toilet that would accommodate two people.

[2015] That's why we.

[2016] But you wanted to.

[2017] Yeah, like we thought when we got rich, is something we would put our money into, is designing a lover's toilet.

[2018] Did you ever poop in the tub while she pooped on the toilet and hold hands?

[2019] No, no, no, no. You guys stopped thinking outside the box.

[2020] Yeah, we just, we had our site set on a bunny toilet.

[2021] I see.

[2022] Okay.

[2023] So Tony, I looked at the commercial he did, the VW commercial, which I didn't remember him doing.

[2024] So he's in the car and he's like kind of dancing like crazy.

[2025] Oh, wow.

[2026] And he looks, you know, nuts.

[2027] and he's doing all these dances, he's doing the robot dance, and he's doing all kinds of stuff.

[2028] And then someone walks up to the car, opens the passenger seat to get in, and you hear the robot song.

[2029] Oh, Mr. Roboto.

[2030] Blaring.

[2031] And then he gets...

[2032] Memorari got to Mr. The sticks song.

[2033] Yeah.

[2034] And then he closes the door, and that's the commercial.

[2035] Oh, I can't wait to watch it.

[2036] It's a good commercial, actually.

[2037] At first I was like, this is weird.

[2038] Okay, until you heard the song.

[2039] Yeah.

[2040] Then I was like, oh, it's good.

[2041] It's great.

[2042] It's great.

[2043] It's actually great.

[2044] Okay, so box breathing.

[2045] He talks about box breathing.

[2046] And then you said, yeah, you do something similar at night to sleep.

[2047] Oh, right, right, right, right.

[2048] When you describe that.

[2049] When you describe that.

[2050] And my inhale, then my hold and my exhale.

[2051] Yes, you describe that.

[2052] And it's actually called 478 breathing yours.

[2053] Four, seven, eight.

[2054] Uh -huh.

[2055] Good for sleeping and reducing anxiety.

[2056] So you breathe in for four, hold for seven.

[2057] Right.

[2058] Listen.

[2059] Oh, you're supposed to do four.

[2060] Do you feel relaxed?

[2061] It really literally just in two, like your chest lets out.

[2062] Wow.

[2063] Yeah, like it feels like all the webbing inside your body kind of relaxes.

[2064] Have you ever done it?

[2065] I don't know.

[2066] Why don't you try it right now?

[2067] I'll count for you, okay?

[2068] On your mark, get set, go.

[2069] One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two, five, six, seven, one, two.

[2070] Man, I was laughing too hard.

[2071] You're already laughing.

[2072] It's hard not to laugh.

[2073] It's a very funny exercise.

[2074] So funny.

[2075] It's really funny.

[2076] That's all.

[2077] That's it.

[2078] I love you.

[2079] I love you.

[2080] And I'm so excited for our Thanksgiving.

[2081] I'm so excited for our Thanksgiving party.

[2082] Me too.

[2083] We're three days away from the big bender.

[2084] Me too.

[2085] I hope you get fucking drunk monkey at the house.

[2086] I will.

[2087] Get shit -faced and watch some lions football.

[2088] Love you.

[2089] Bye.

[2090] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2091] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2092] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.