133. A Burger a Day

[0] From APM, American Public Media and WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio on Marketplace.

[1] Here's the host of Marketplace, Kai Rizdahl.

[2] Time now for a little Freakonomics Radio.

[3] It's that moment every couple of weeks.

[4] We talk to Stephen Dubner, the co -author of the books and the blog of the same name.

[5] It is the hidden side of everything.

[6] Dubner, how are you, man?

[7] Kai, I'm great.

[8] Thank you.

[9] All right.

[10] Nice to talk to you.

[11] You like riddles, don't you, Kai?

[12] I do.

[13] All right, let me try something out on you then.

[14] A listener of ours, a fellow named Ralph Thomas, recently asked us to weigh in on what he calls, quote, the cheapest, most nutritious and bountiful food that has ever existed in history.

[15] He says it's got 390 calories, 23 grams of protein, substantial portions of calcium iron, and it costs only a buck or two.

[16] So, Kai Rizdahl, let me ask you this.

[17] What food is Ralph talking about?

[18] It's got to be like tofu or soy or some kind of thing, right?

[19] God, you're smart.

[20] Oh.

[21] But you're wrong.

[22] But you're wrong, also.

[23] You get it to me all the time, man. What is that?

[24] It's the McDonald's McDouble hamburger.

[25] No, it's not.

[26] Well, this is Ralph's argument.

[27] And you responded the way a lot of people respond.

[28] We actually brought in a bunch of McDonald's here at WNYC for the staff.

[29] And this was definitely not a McDonald's crowd.

[30] Check this out.

[31] Not nutrition at all.

[32] Zero nutrition.

[33] I would say from zero to kale.

[34] Technically, there are pickles.

[35] So I think they're very much.

[36] They're not like real pickles.

[37] You know what I mean?

[38] It's like McDonald's somehow has engineered their own version of the pickle.

[39] They're, you know, a piece of synecdochie for American mass, bland, synthetic corporatism.

[40] All right, so a couple of things.

[41] One, sinecticky, good word.

[42] Two, I always did like McDonald's pickles.

[43] And number three, come on, that's like the public radio crowd.

[44] You heard the lady, zero to kale?

[45] Come on.

[46] That is exactly right.

[47] And that's kind of my point.

[48] The more I thought about Ralph Thomas's question, Again, whether the McDouble is the cheapest, most bountiful and most nutritious food ever.

[49] Yes.

[50] The more I realize that how you answer that question says a lot about how you see the world, not only our food system, but also the economics of it and even social justice.

[51] Whoa, dude, where is this coming from?

[52] Well, we set up a little debate on the McDouble between two people.

[53] I'd like to play some of that.

[54] One is a health food activist.

[55] The other is a sort of scholarly farmer.

[56] The activist is Tom Philpott.

[57] He's a food columnist for Mother Jones.

[58] And he says, sure, the McDouble is cheap, but that's because the price does not factor in all the external costs.

[59] In order to present to us all that $2 burger, you're talking about a vast army of working poor people.

[60] And that doesn't even get to the farmer who grew the corn and soy.

[61] Okay.

[62] So on the other side is Blake Hurst, who is a corn and soy farmer.

[63] and he's the president of the Missouri Farm Bureau.

[64] Hurst points out that this vast army of working people are also consumers who benefit from low prices.

[65] It's pretty easy to say everyone ought to get paid more.

[66] I'm in favor of that, particularly in my own case.

[67] But pay is only good in so much as what it can buy.

[68] And what you can buy is a McDonald's cheeseburger for just a little over buck and almost 14 ,000 restaurants.

[69] And that is a good thing.

[70] All right.

[71] So value judgments aside, that's the cheap part of this equation.

[72] What about the bountiful thing you were talking about?

[73] Well, as Blake Hurst points out, you know, 14 ,000 Mickey Ds in the U .S. alone where you can pop in whenever you need a burger.

[74] And this highlights a larger issue that he feels is wildly overlooked.

[75] The biggest unreported story of the last three quarters of a century, this increase in the availability of food for the common person.

[76] And, you know, so I'll give him that.

[77] I mean, that is, generally speaking, a good thing.

[78] You can't turn around nowadays without finding food.

[79] That's right.

[80] In most places, that's absolutely true.

[81] According to the Global Food Security Index that the economist publishes, the United States is number one in the world, meaning food is very bountiful.

[82] Now, that comes with its own problems, of course.

[83] All right, but, Domner, listen, if the point of the original question is that if you had a bunch of people to feed cheaply and you wanted to feed them, you know, at least reasonably well, what would you give them?

[84] What's the answer?

[85] Well, here's Tom Philpott's very Mother Jonesy idea.

[86] You can get a pound of brown rice organic and a pound of red lentils for about at two bucks each.

[87] And a serving size, say a cup of each of those things would be about 75 cents.

[88] Okay, so that's that.

[89] And here's how Blake Hurst, the farmer, sees things.

[90] Yeah, but I rest my case.

[91] I'm sorry, there is no amount of marketing that is going to make me prefer brown rice and lentils over at McDonald's Cheeseburg.

[92] All right.

[93] Well, so maybe he's got a point.

[94] Who won the debate, though, dude?

[95] I'll let your listeners decide, you know.

[96] As you see, people have very strong opinions about the stuff, fact -based, or otherwise.

[97] In my own home, I've got one kid who loves McDonald's and another who will not go anywhere near it.

[98] But that's how it kind of goes with these things.

[99] So I guess I've got to call Tom Philpott back to get some nice recipes for lentils and rice.

[100] I've got to feed my daughter.

[101] Good luck on that one, man. Stephen Dobner, Freakonomics .com is the website.

[102] Dubner, we'll talk to you soon.

[103] Thanks, Jack.

[104] Mike.

[105] Hey, podcast listeners.

[106] Coming up on the next Freakonomics Radio, we've got a summer reading recommendation that I promise you won't hear anywhere else.

[107] He was taking her to a cafe, he was taking her to the airport, and then got to the point where he was taking her to the hotel to go to bed with her.

[108] And he even was kind enough to give her some of his ammunition for her gun.

[109] That is from the Encyclopedia of Ethical Failure, published by the U .S. Department of Defense.

[110] Yep.

[111] Government officials behaving badly.

[112] That's next time on Freakonomics Radio.