Sarah Silverman

[0] Baby hair with a woman's eyes.

[1] I can feel you watching in the night.

[2] When I feel cold, you warn me. And when I feel I can't go on, you come and hold me. It's you and me forever.

[3] Sarah, Silverman.

[4] Do do, do, do.

[5] Welcome to armchair expert.

[6] It was nice.

[7] Never sang in an intro, but felt appropriate.

[8] Yeah, you really took it on.

[9] You really tackled that one.

[10] Sarah Silverman, what a get for us.

[11] Oh, my gosh.

[12] I feel so honored.

[13] Oh, coming out swinging in 19.

[14] Going to be hard to top.

[15] All downhill from here.

[16] Just saying.

[17] Well, you know Sarah Silverman, for Pete's sakes.

[18] If you don't know Sarah Silverman, then you need to throw your mobile device out the window of your car.

[19] Or just do some Googling, get to know her.

[20] Well, that's right.

[21] Pull over, get your phone out of the ditch and YouTube Sarah Silverman.

[22] But look, we are super fans of Sarah.

[23] Super.

[24] She's incredible.

[25] She's so funny.

[26] She's so smart.

[27] She's the biggest heart.

[28] And she's easy on the eyes, too.

[29] Yeah.

[30] You like her.

[31] I like her.

[32] And I like her.

[33] And I like her too.

[34] So, without further ado, please enjoy Sarah Silverman.

[35] Lundrie Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[36] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[37] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[38] Are we recording, Monica?

[39] Yeah.

[40] Oh, wonderful.

[41] Soft start.

[42] Do you want to wear these?

[43] I enjoy it.

[44] No, I like it.

[45] Me too.

[46] Oh, because then I know I don't.

[47] enough to project.

[48] That's right.

[49] I don't even like, I guess I'm so used to going to a radio station, right, and sitting behind like a desk and then there's the microphone and the headphones.

[50] Even if I go on Stern, I feel very physically uncomfortable.

[51] Like I feel so exposed just sitting on a couch and the fact that it's a headset.

[52] Yeah, the headset, the like Janet Jackson thing they have now.

[53] Yeah, does that throw you out of your comfort zone at all?

[54] No, I get used to it.

[55] You do.

[56] You have ice in your veins.

[57] Walk in.

[58] Do you think?

[59] Right.

[60] Yeah, I do, in fact.

[61] That would be something I would get to later.

[62] But yeah, I think you have ice in your veins.

[63] You have such a specific...

[64] Oh, that breaks my heart.

[65] No, that's a very...

[66] Are you kidding?

[67] Well, I'll tell you this.

[68] As a performer, not as a human.

[69] I would rather...

[70] I don't believe in developing a thick skin.

[71] I'd rather just have a little more perspective on where things are coming from and understand them more.

[72] Oh, that's a good way.

[73] Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.

[74] Because I want to feel things, you know.

[75] But it is interesting because you're right.

[76] Like, in order to be effective, there has to be a distance.

[77] You know, like in comedy, if you want to talk about something you're very passionate about, you have to have some kind of wall or distance, just like an emergency worker, someone who works in an emergency room, is going to be more effective if they can, separate what's going on because otherwise they're going, oh my God, she's bleeding.

[78] Are you okay?

[79] Yes.

[80] You know, and you have to be able to have a kind of distance, just like social workers and stuff.

[81] You know, you get into it because you're compassionate.

[82] Army medics.

[83] And in order to be effective, you have to be able to be slightly less compassionate.

[84] Yeah, well, just objective.

[85] And being objective is almost, antithetical to being emotional and yeah this guy Paul bloom wrote a couple of different books about empathy and he said you know we think of empathy as just this blanket positive thing like a euphemism for any good nature things but he said in point of fact that empathy's not useful and he gives that example if your surgeon is imagining being in your shoes while operating on you very ineffective He wouldn't be able to cut into you or she wouldn't be able to cut into you.

[86] So, or if you were walking along the beach and you saw someone drowning, you don't...

[87] Drounding.

[88] Yeah, I know.

[89] I say it wrong.

[90] That'll be one of many words I say wrong throughout the next little bit.

[91] But he said, you know, you don't need empathy to act and to do good.

[92] And in fact, if you saw someone drowning, the worst thing you could do is to put yourself in their shoes because it would make you hysterical.

[93] Right.

[94] But the ice in the veins comment is simply.

[95] you have a type of comedy which has so much quiet in it, which I find to be the most scary thing you could do in stand -up.

[96] There's a few people that, you know, really do it, and you're certainly one of them.

[97] Oh, interesting.

[98] You're aware of that, obviously.

[99] The quiet moments.

[100] Yeah, I learned that from Gary Shanling.

[101] Oh, really?

[102] He, he, I remember him telling me that sometimes what you aren't saying is just as much a part of it as what you are saying and you know of course when you start doing stand up uh if you don't have the crowd you'll you'll you'll over talk you'll talk louder you'll talk faster and that's desperation it's not track i'm still in that phase of my comedy yes so you have to be willing to yeah have those those moments yeah i just i find it to be very brave and in fact we both listen to Stern a lot.

[103] And in the Seinfeld interviews, I love on there.

[104] When he says the kind of people he admires, he admires the comics that can kind of just sit in those beats and be patient and not panic and let all that happen.

[105] And that, to me, is still the most mind -blowing kind of confidence you can have on stage.

[106] Well, also, it's very interesting because people are not traditionally comfortable in the quiet moments.

[107] And I can give an example.

[108] of my dad, who when we're on the phone, if there is a single beat of silence, he goes, um, um, um, mama, uh, uh, um, and it's just, it's kind of heartbreaking, even though it's, you know, he's fine, but it's, it's because he is terrified of those quiet moments, you know, that someone's going to give up on him or the conversation will be over.

[109] Like my worst moments of the year are in a long elevator ride with like four strangers.

[110] I just find it grueling.

[111] Are you super comfy in an elevator?

[112] Are you enjoying the awkwardness of it?

[113] That's some, I have had interior monologues where I think everybody here is standing in silence.

[114] I'm not the only one standing in silence.

[115] So this is something to be comfortable in.

[116] And then other times I will take it upon myself to be the host of the elevator.

[117] That's me. You can count on the fact that around floor six, I'm going to make some joke because I just feel Like, they all need rescuing, and I do too.

[118] And even if I tank, it'll be better than the other experience we were having.

[119] It's interesting about, I don't know I'm going back to this, but I have been thinking about that in terms of like being too close to something to be effective.

[120] It's like, you know, if a cop's wife gets murdered, you'd think he'd be the perfect detective on the case because he knows everything about his wife.

[121] But, of course, he's taken off the case because he's too close to it.

[122] Yes.

[123] I've heard you make this point recently.

[124] Yeah, I'm Howard Stern.

[125] I totally...

[126] I just realized what it was about and then I didn't want to go into it.

[127] And I won't make you go on to that.

[128] As I was watching clips of you in preparation for this, I was realizing how many times you've had to deal with all that.

[129] So, yeah, I'm kind of done with it because after that interview, all these clickbait...

[130] Yes.

[131] You think you're putting something to bad.

[132] And it was on purpose, not what I was saying at all.

[133] I know.

[134] I know.

[135] Oh, my God.

[136] They, yeah.

[137] They recently did this to Kristen, and it was, it was just, it was a thoughtful interview.

[138] And then it got reduced to some sentence that doesn't even resemble the interview.

[139] And then that thing, of course, was incendiary to everyone on all political sides.

[140] And it just, yeah, it's a disaster.

[141] And no outlet is immune to is, is classier, classier than doing that because they're all drowning and desperate.

[142] Yeah, they all got to make money in this weird paradigm.

[143] which that's required.

[144] Because if you then click on it, it's all quoted and accurate.

[145] Mm -hmm.

[146] But nobody clicks on it.

[147] No, no, no. Most people are reacting almost solely to a headline they saw.

[148] No one's reading the full article on anything.

[149] By the way, I'm guilty of it too.

[150] Totally guilty of it.

[151] But I do now try to be more aware of it.

[152] But when I heard you make that point, it reminded me of something I always think, which is like I will sometimes be against the death penalty, right?

[153] And then someone will smartly say, oh, what if it was your daughter that was murdered?

[154] And I say, I would want that person killed.

[155] But we shouldn't have someone that's been the victim of their child dying be making policy for the country.

[156] And that's the actual last person because I'm now so emotional about that.

[157] There's no way I could evaluate the pros and cons of it or be objective.

[158] And probably 90 % of the stuff we're saying were to, we are to.

[159] too close to the fire are we yeah and then there's the other side of that of of of i wish more people who have experienced uh not having money for health care not you know um having having education be for the rich healthcare be for the rich you know all these things who people who have touched you know i mean if betsy devas had at any point experienced or or witnessed someone struggling to get simply an education in the richest country in America.

[160] Yeah.

[161] You would have a little more information to go on.

[162] Have you seen this documentary?

[163] The guy's name is Daryl Davis.

[164] He's a jazz musician and he's black.

[165] And there's a documentary called...

[166] Accidental courtesy.

[167] It's on Netflix.

[168] It's incredible.

[169] Wow, I haven't even heard of it.

[170] He in the 70s, he was like a professional musician.

[171] So he'd sit in with different bands.

[172] And I guess in the late 70s or 80s, country was kind of big.

[173] So he found himself in these different country bars.

[174] And one guy came up to him saying how great he played the piano.

[175] And then would he like to sit down and have a drink?

[176] And then he's talking with him and his buddy.

[177] And he says, what do you do?

[178] And his buddy nudges him.

[179] And he's like, tell him, tell him.

[180] He's like, no, I'm not going to tell him.

[181] He's the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

[182] And the Grand Wizard admits to him he's literally the first black guy he's ever spoken to in his life.

[183] Wow.

[184] He had somehow gone his whole life without actually conversing with the black person he then becomes friends with that guy and he is the guy who like he goes to his wedding yes he's gone to clan rallies where they're burning across and in over the years he has reached out to all these different grand wizards or imperial dragons or whatever their fun dungeons and dragons names are and he has gotten 15 of the leaders to leave the clan and he collects their hoods and shit in his house and it's just incredibly cool and you start realizing oh people you assume everyone had the same experience you did and some people have never even met a gay person or you know that they know of people go towards love even Trump was a Democrat but he went towards where he got the love from that's always what happens that's why if you engage it goes usually pretty well.

[185] Like if you engage with love.

[186] And I'm not saying that's easy or necessary the right thing to do or that anyone's obligated to do it.

[187] But it's pretty fruitful usually.

[188] And you see that, you know, hate comes from, this is probably boring at this point, but fear and, you know, the fear of what is unknown.

[189] I mean, when on my show we went to Louisiana and, you know, this family, who all voted for Trump and, you know, and they hosted me for...

[190] This is on I Love You America.

[191] Yeah, and she said, she said, they had to Google Jew.

[192] What?

[193] But they just had, it's not where their life brought them.

[194] You know, it's not what they're supposed to.

[195] And she said, did you know who Adam Levine is one?

[196] I said, I did.

[197] Is he at your Jew meetings?

[198] Yeah.

[199] Of running the world.

[200] Well, in my own experience, when I was a little kid, the first people I became aware of that were Jewish were our neighbors when I was five years old.

[201] And I had heard like they're Jewish.

[202] And around the like, you know, little apartment complex, it was very well known.

[203] They were Jewish.

[204] And I, and my five -year -old brain was trying to figure out like, oh, what's, what makes them Jewish?

[205] And the only thing I could figure out was that they were the only people that drove a foreign car.

[206] They drove a beetlebug.

[207] Oh, because it was Detroit and everyone drove an American car.

[208] And I was like, oh, Jewish people drive foreign cars.

[209] That's why they're Jewish.

[210] You know, because that was the only thing that seemed obviously different about them.

[211] I mean, listen, I have two, you know, I was raised by agnostic at best parents and we were Jewish.

[212] Our last time was Silverman, but, you know, I grew up in New Hampshire and all the parents of my friends would say, are you from New York?

[213] And I'd go, what's New York?

[214] I'm from here.

[215] But looking back as an adult, of course, they just thought like Jews are from New York.

[216] That's totally understandable.

[217] And I also realized that, like, I knew innately, but I didn't know why or I could have never, like, articulated this as a kid to show my friend's parents that I was not scary and that I was polite and that, you know, I was nothing to fear.

[218] You know, I just had this, I knew instinctively, I guess.

[219] You were somehow an ambassador for Jewish people in their home.

[220] And, you know, my oldest sister who is now a rabbi, you know, we grew up with no religion.

[221] We weren't but mitzvah.

[222] We didn't, we never went to a bar mitzvah.

[223] We didn't know what that was growing up.

[224] You know, we just didn't grow up with Jews at all.

[225] And she thought being Jewish meant being a Democrat because that's also how we were different in our town, you know.

[226] Yeah, for sure.

[227] So you embraced it then.

[228] You weren't like, I don't know what that is and I'm not that.

[229] We didn't run from it.

[230] You know, I did a little, because I remember a lot I would say, we're Jewish, but like, we don't.

[231] we're not like we don't you know qualify it you know i think there was a kind of qualifying yeah that i didn't i didn't understand why i was instinctively doing that but well you're kind of you're talking about something that i i hope to there's a weird um thread through a lot of the things i hear you say in interviews and then what i witness in my own wife which is really interesting because you would think reactions are predictable and objectively will go one way or another what what you really see or what I've seen is it depends so much on what that person's self -esteem is and their sense of power and all these things, whether or not they'll be triggered by something, right?

[232] So my example is a lot of people hate Andrew Dice Clay.

[233] My wife had no idea who he was.

[234] I show her a bunch of videos.

[235] She loves it like I did when I was young.

[236] Oh, my God, I loved him.

[237] And my prediction was that you probably loved him too.

[238] Yeah, yeah, I remember listening to his records.

[239] It's a comedian friend in New York when I was first, you know, 19.

[240] Yeah.

[241] And I'm just watching Kristen laugh hysterically.

[242] And then I'm also quite aware of that quite a few women felt like he was a misogynist and he was terrible and they hated his thing.

[243] Which I also understand.

[244] But I think the main difference is that my wife feels very empowered.

[245] She doesn't feel like she's powerless or a victim often.

[246] She's attained a lot of cultural capital.

[247] There's all these reasons where.

[248] It doesn't trigger anything for her.

[249] I agree, but I think it's even more so because I think she would be not personally triggered, but she would be very defensive of protective of women who are in vulnerable positions if she felt that it came from a literal or sincere place within him.

[250] Right.

[251] Like she was able to evaluate his intentions and she decided his intentions weren't horrific.

[252] Yeah, he's being, I think, absurd.

[253] That's, see, now, my takeaway, because I've argued with a few people on here about Andrew Dice Clay.

[254] He's very polarizing comedian.

[255] But my wife's boss, Mike, sure, really dislikes him and always has.

[256] I'm like, even when you were a kid, you didn't think it was funny, the nursery rhymes and everything.

[257] And he just never liked him.

[258] And I said, but you do recognize it is a send -up of that archetype.

[259] Like, it's, he's in on the joke.

[260] He's pointing out what a douchebag this guy is, right?

[261] I would love for you to have him on your show because I'm not sure, but I have to believe that's certainly how I inferred it.

[262] And so that's how the art was to me. Right, right.

[263] So I don't know.

[264] So I could be making a terrible mistake.

[265] But he is not, he was very powerful at that time too.

[266] So I kind of understand like Nora Dunn, you know, feeling the way she felt, you know, in a time where Star Night Live, probably it maybe felt like it echoed genuine experience there at that time.

[267] I don't know because I wasn't there then.

[268] But just suffice to say, if you were a woman who just recently got, someone yelled at you on the street, hey, bitch, I'd like to put my tongue in your ass.

[269] And then the first line you hear is him saying, so I've got my tongue up this chick's ass.

[270] that's a different context by which you're receiving that, right?

[271] I mean, you could come into it having just experienced guys being complete assholes and truly misogynistic.

[272] And then you see that and it looks just like more of that.

[273] I guess the point I'm trying to make is the receiver has such a big role in this whole thing.

[274] Completely.

[275] Like when you say a guy on the street says, blah, blah, blah.

[276] Now, when I was 19 in New York, I remember walking by construction workers and, getting cat called and looking back at them like and uh and the guy saw me look back and went not you and i realized they were talking about and it was very humbling all of a sudden i was like sad it wasn't yeah sure so now i'm much older and uh self -possessed and i'm just a different my my um commodity isn't is isn't necessarily sex uh -huh Did you have, like, a wake for that?

[277] I think you're wrong about that evaluation, but that's fine.

[278] I really, like, but so now if I'm judged by my looks, it's such a treat.

[279] And it's so, and if a guy cat called me, I would be like, me. You are so sweet.

[280] So romantic.

[281] He wants his tongue at my asshole.

[282] It's like, that makes me almost cry of, like, from being moved.

[283] Yeah, he doesn't even know if you've showered.

[284] He's just trusting that you're clean.

[285] The first penis I ever saw was my boss at a restaurant I worked at.

[286] And a taco restaurant, yeah.

[287] And he wouldn't have done that to me now.

[288] Right.

[289] They have an innate instinct of what they can get away with and with whom they can get away with.

[290] This is something where I didn't tell my parents.

[291] I didn't tell anyone about it for so many years.

[292] And I can't figure out why.

[293] But he must have known, at least innately, why?

[294] You know, because, gosh, if he had done it five years later, I would have been vocal about it.

[295] Yes, you would have shamed him dramatically, probably.

[296] Yeah, and I certainly wouldn't have internalized that shame.

[297] And so, I mean, it is, it's very interesting what we innately know as humans, what he innately knew what I did as a kid as being like the Jewish kid or like all those things that we don't know why we know them.

[298] couldn't articulate that we know them but we do yes well i was thinking about this either day and i talked about it at length and i've been trying to think of a way to bring it up on here but it's so dice but i'll just say from my very own experience okay so i was molested as a kid and the guy who did it um the whole reason i was even around this guy repeatedly was he had a go cart that i really wanted to buy and he kept saying that he was going to sell me this go cart for cheap and so all of the ugliness happens and for years i well first i don't even tell anyone for years and there are so many things going on um you know as a young male where i grew up the worst thing you could be on a playground as a girl but only worse than that was a fag and so i thought oh i'm a homosexual now because i did this thing plus i was violent all these things right and i later admitted it to this female friend of mine who'd kind of told me about how she'd been attacked by a guy.

[299] And I felt like, God, I got to meet her halfway and be honest about myself.

[300] And I told her and all of a sudden just started getting easier and easier and easier.

[301] But over the years, yes, to talk about.

[302] And over the years, what I've come to realize is a big bulk of the shame isn't what he did to me. The big bulk of the shame is that I played a role in it.

[303] I wanted something from this person.

[304] I was in a situation that I didn't like, and I knew I didn't like it, but I kept going forward because I wanted that thing.

[305] And I have to imagine for so many survivors of trauma like that, so much of the thing you can't get over is your own involvement.

[306] And you need to, for me, I needed to go, oh, yeah, you were eight, dude, you really wanted to go car.

[307] It's okay.

[308] You need to forgive yourself.

[309] And then what I was thinking about was almost all of these interactions, you know, barring those where you get tackled in an alley.

[310] Most of these situations, someone has leverage over someone.

[311] And the leverage is you want something from that person, and they've recognized that.

[312] And they're going to try to get their devious plan executed using this leverage.

[313] And I think all of this carry around the guilt of having been succumb to the leverage people have.

[314] You know, oh, she's ambitious.

[315] She was being ambitious.

[316] Yes.

[317] God forbid you wanted something for yourself.

[318] Yes.

[319] And I bet a lot of people.

[320] there were bells going off going, I've gotten myself in a dicey situation.

[321] I shouldn't be here.

[322] And I think, I almost think that's where the bulk of the healing needs to happen is like you just admitting, hey, I ignored my intuition and I really wanted something.

[323] And that's okay.

[324] I'm a human and that's what we do.

[325] And it's okay.

[326] And you are still taking advantage of.

[327] Yes.

[328] There was no part of what he did that was okay.

[329] No, absolutely not.

[330] But I just, I find that like the real, the real stuff you wrestle with or just i'll just speak for myself the stuff i wrestle with is my mistakes not yours like you may have done something to me in the past and i'll be mad about it for two weeks but it's me when i lay in bed i think oh fuck i really was mean to that person 12 years ago i'm just carrying my shit you know last night when i was falling asleep i thought of something that i did a dynamic that i created with a man that if it was the other way around would have been very clearly not okay.

[331] Right.

[332] I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I said his name, but he's a comedian, and he did stand up.

[333] He writes now.

[334] He's very successful.

[335] Great guy.

[336] And I had such sexual prowess.

[337] I was very confident, and he was very kind of shy, and he gave me a ride somewhere, and I was talking very sexually and very explicitly at him.

[338] You know, and it was, it felt like power.

[339] I really was remembering this last night.

[340] And I was talking about, you know, sex and orgasms and this and that.

[341] And I think there was a part of me that got off on making him uncomfortable.

[342] And then he said, well, when I come, I come a lot.

[343] Oh.

[344] And now it shut me up.

[345] And we, I laughed.

[346] but it was and I and um he shut me down like it was brilliant because I was feeling so powerful and the power was coming from making him uncomfortable and then he made me uncomfortable and this is he did it I mean I'm in awe of it yeah but in poker we call that coming over the top on the bet he like you raise and he was like oh yeah I see that and I'll fucking double that raise oh I don't have great cards oh yeah oh I was hoping you'd fold at this But anyway, the point being that I thought, wow, if that was the other way around, we would be very familiar with what that is and why it's wrong.

[347] And I just thought, oh, my goodness, I should call Chuck Martin.

[348] Let's get him on the phone.

[349] But, you know, it's interesting because these things aren't tit for tat because we live in a patriarchy.

[350] And so that guy had the confidence to come over the top.

[351] You know, he just innately from the society lives in, he's like, I can always fight back.

[352] No, I guess.

[353] No. And I mean, like, what he said, I am fully supportive of it.

[354] And I wish I could remember the things I was saying.

[355] But yeah, it was right of him.

[356] Yeah, yeah.

[357] 100%.

[358] I was using my power to degrade him in a way, I think.

[359] For your own titillation and amusement.

[360] Yeah, just as feeling power in this.

[361] in this world, you know, I think, not to justify it.

[362] But I thought, ooh, or like when everything was happening this year with Me Too and everything, and I thought, oh, my God, I walked into the writer's room and I said, Jocelyn, I, I'm your boss and I shouldn't have made you look at my pubes.

[363] You work for me. That was a situation where maybe, you know, of course I said this in front of the whole writer's room.

[364] And she was like, no, it's okay, sir.

[365] I, you know.

[366] Oh, well.

[367] I was convinced that I have straight pubs.

[368] Oh, really?

[369] They didn't believe me. I wouldn't have believed that.

[370] But then my friend Chris Romano said it's because it's just from like the day.

[371] Oh, they just got flattened.

[372] Yeah, but even out of the shower, I mean, there may be a bit of a wave, but.

[373] Interesting.

[374] That's very interesting.

[375] Now, if you were to let it grow to its full capacity, which I feel it's there right now.

[376] Oh, that's fantastic, by the way.

[377] Yeah, because it's been, you know, it's winter and I haven't.

[378] It gets cold down.

[379] What happens is I just take the beard trimmer and put it on a one.

[380] Uh -huh.

[381] But it's at a pretty full capacity.

[382] So now when it's at full length and it's dry, you've gotten on the shower.

[383] It's silky.

[384] Yeah, it is.

[385] It is wiring, but I would say it's straight.

[386] I have a mental image in my head.

[387] It's probably wrong.

[388] Where's yours come from?

[389] I know where mine's from.

[390] Oh, no, I'm just picturing a new image in my head.

[391] I don't have a reference point, but I picture it like your hair.

[392] Yeah.

[393] Oh, wow.

[394] Straight down.

[395] Oh, like, lying flat.

[396] Because people think I straighten my hair, I think, because I'm Jewie.

[397] Uh -huh.

[398] But it is, it's pretty straight.

[399] I wonder if people think that.

[400] Do they think that?

[401] But I think people are you just...

[402] Everyone, yeah.

[403] They accuse you.

[404] Other women accuse you of straightening your hair?

[405] No, but if I'm in like a hair and makeup chair for the first time at a thing, they go, oh, do you straighten your hair?

[406] And I go, no, it's not curly.

[407] And I'm not from New York.

[408] I am.

[409] And I don't drive a beetlebone.

[410] From a farm town.

[411] Well, I have an image in my head, and it's from that.

[412] film i was telling you about the other day the kamasutra they made a movie and it was like on showtime when i was not a porn a regular movie it was a regular movie but it was definitely a soft coreish oh all right now a ton of nudity and stuff right and one of it seems like it would be a woman with it would show women with full bushes yeah full bushes um which i love and um it was very long and very straight which i had never seen interesting straight on indian girls yes it was straight No, they straightened that then.

[413] Oh, my, you think they flat ironed their bush?

[414] For sure.

[415] Oh, wow.

[416] They took a hot iron to that.

[417] At any rate, it was sticking straight out, you know, parallel to the floor she was standing.

[418] Straight out.

[419] So that's what I was picturing for you when you just said it was straight.

[420] No, I. It just lays flat down.

[421] It's just like, yeah.

[422] Okay, great.

[423] It's like wiry, but not curly.

[424] And it's.

[425] Did people corroborate, when you showed them at your work, were they like, oh, Oh, you're right.

[426] She also was like, yeah.

[427] And then Glenn was like, no, mine are like that too.

[428] And then she showed me and hers are like that too.

[429] I don't know what this thing is that they're, I mean, I guess if out of the shower I like scrunch dried it.

[430] Uh -huh.

[431] Crimp going.

[432] Maybe.

[433] Or if you go to bed with it wet.

[434] For real.

[435] That's what I do.

[436] If I want to have a little body in my hair, I go to bed with my hair still a little damp out of the hour when I wake up, it's got waves.

[437] Really?

[438] Yeah, and my hair is bone straight.

[439] It is.

[440] Not unlike your pubic hair.

[441] It is straight as a country road.

[442] Sarah Silverman's pews.

[443] What if that became a catchphrase?

[444] Well, what you really want to do if you want to get a good curl is while it's wet, you braid it.

[445] Oh.

[446] So you could do little braids.

[447] And then in the morning, you release the braid and then it's nice and crimpy and curly.

[448] Mm -hmm.

[449] Well, please do that and report back to us in 2019 if it worked.

[450] Of my pubs?

[451] Yeah, braid it.

[452] Go to bed with it wet and braid it and then see.

[453] Just see.

[454] I don't think I could braid it.

[455] I mean, it's only like, at its longest, it's probably an inch and a half.

[456] Oh, really?

[457] At full length.

[458] Well, I don't know.

[459] I mean, I don't know how, I don't know how, like, a year of not trimming would be.

[460] Yeah.

[461] It's not, you know, I like a nice full triangle.

[462] Yeah, I think that's fantastic.

[463] Crazy.

[464] Yeah.

[465] Stay tuned.

[466] for more armchair expert if you dare we've all been there turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains debilitating body aches sudden fevers and strange rashes though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios it's usually nothing but for an unlucky few these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[467] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[468] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[469] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[470] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[471] Prime members can listen early and and ad -free on Amazon music.

[472] What's up, guys?

[473] It's your girl, Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[474] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[475] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[476] And I don't mean just friends.

[477] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[478] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[479] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[480] You did bring up something that, I think about a lot, again, this is in no way excuses anyone's shit.

[481] Like, it's not an excuse.

[482] But I do know in my own experience, it's weirdly hard to recognize the power and privilege you have.

[483] Like, you don't ever feel, I don't ever, even when I'm like the director of a movie and clearly these hundred people are asking me questions, I still feel like I'm 15 from Michigan.

[484] I just don't, you know what I'm saying?

[485] It's weirdly hard to recognize that, oh, I guess people do see me that way.

[486] It almost feel egomaniacal to acknowledge that about myself that I...

[487] Well, I mean, I think you're probably a collaborator and stuff.

[488] But, I mean, this is different.

[489] Being the director on a set is different from acknowledging white privilege.

[490] No, no, I know.

[491] Well, no, no, no. But I'm saying even in your example where you are at work and all of a sudden you go, oh, I've showed my pubic hair, the employees.

[492] I don't, I don't feel that way.

[493] We're in a writer's room.

[494] I throw out garbage and they feel comfortable saying, you know, I mean, whatever, and we, we collaborate him.

[495] And, yeah, I am the, I'm the boss, but I don't, I don't feel.

[496] You don't feel like the boss, do you?

[497] At all.

[498] But I have to acknowledge that to these 29 -year -olds, I certainly am.

[499] Yes.

[500] And I can't, it wouldn't be, in terms of looking at what, what we're all the national conversation around it yeah so busy conversation around it at the very least you know i it's important to acknowledge it um i guess what i'm wondering is the moment you were driving in the car uh and you were saying pervy stuff did you have a you were recognizing that you were in kind of an elevated status position i had no power in life at the time or anything but i you know i guess but but but i felt a sexual little prowess that I was feeling myself.

[501] Uh -huh.

[502] You know what I mean?

[503] Yeah.

[504] I was just coming.

[505] I was just remembering this memory last night as I was going to bed and, and thinking about if that were the other way around.

[506] And yes, you're right.

[507] We live in a patriarchy and it's, it isn't the same.

[508] It's not tit for tat.

[509] But I do also, and I'm not worried per se about this, but I want to be conscious of it that when women take over, you know, and we are living.

[510] in a matriarchy that it is inclusive and we don't just become old white men because I think there are examples of that not with women but you know just in terms of it's is it the person or the power well there's been some damn dark female leaders throughout history so to me there's a lot of proof just saying power is corruptible uh you know is there a reason to be a billionaire right is there a single reason that that's other than ego you couldn't spend it in a lifetime but what is weird about that though is that uh so that's a very obvious yes that's true yet um fears which motivates so much of what we do uh they are generally irrational to begin with so the fact that you could have a kind of a rational answer to something that's irrational in my case i had a ton of fear of economic security for whatever reason.

[511] Just the way I was raised.

[512] I obsess about it.

[513] I don't need to.

[514] I have plenty enough money to not think about it.

[515] Yet I also am aware of the fact that I can imagine having $800 million and thinking, I got to get a billion just to know I'm safe.

[516] It's stupid and irrational is because the whole thing's being driven by a fear, which is just...

[517] Rich people never have enough money.

[518] That's why I'm for like, I keep my overhead so low because I'm not married.

[519] I don't have kids.

[520] And I need to make sure that.

[521] I can afford, like, medical care, I'd like to have, like, a living nurse in my old age.

[522] I'd like to live with friends, you know, I'd like to have a, I want to be able to live out my years, laughing and comfortable and healthy.

[523] And so I, I definitely think about those things, but at the same time.

[524] But then that number, right, whatever number you would decide would make, would make you feel safe, it just keeps changing, right?

[525] Like you're not oh it doesn't I don't know I mean I I want to make sure I there I have a lot of As we all do a lot of people around me You need to be taken care of And so it's just Yeah I definitely I definitely want to have I want to make money While I'm in my earning years You want to make haywell the sunshine And I don't know how to tackle this Thing I want to talk to you about Excited see Yeah, like generally I feel like I know like the points along the conversation I want to have, but I don't.

[526] Here's what I want to start with.

[527] I ran into you at Comic -Con five years ago, maybe six years ago.

[528] You were promoting the first wreck at Ralph.

[529] You were backstage with John C. Riley.

[530] And then Kristen and I walked up.

[531] And I saw you and you had just been on Stern.

[532] And you told some really funny story on Stern.

[533] And there was a really sexual part of whatever.

[534] joke it was.

[535] And I can't even really remember now.

[536] But I, like, soon as I saw you, I went straight to that.

[537] I, like, went straight to, oh my God, that thing you did.

[538] And it was so graphic.

[539] But it was your graphic.

[540] It wasn't mine.

[541] You know what I'm saying?

[542] What smelling like Richard Christie's balls?

[543] No, it was something more like sexual to you, your own sexuality.

[544] It was a story that involved your own sexuality.

[545] And then I just launched right into that, right?

[546] And it kind of, It fell very flat.

[547] Let's just say that.

[548] Like, I remember.

[549] I don't remember at all.

[550] Well, this is the hilarity of.

[551] Stern listeners have that go right to that thing.

[552] I'm sure I didn't think twice about it.

[553] Right.

[554] But, okay.

[555] Well, thank you.

[556] But this is, by the way, this is how almost all amend, when you make amends, they go this way.

[557] Like, the person doesn't even remember.

[558] Right.

[559] But for years, it's been bothering me. And, like, I remember looking at Kristen and she just kind of gave me that look like, well, that was a very big swing and just kind of.

[560] Oh, my God.

[561] There was no pleasantries.

[562] I just got right to this purview, the thing, like, let's just say that you had had an hour interview.

[563] And whatever the very pervious thing you said in that interview is what I immediately said I liked about that interview.

[564] And I remember John C. Raleigh just kind of going like, hmm, that was a pretty strong statement.

[565] Blah, blah, blah, we walk away.

[566] I've molded over for years.

[567] And here's some other things.

[568] You don't remember what it was.

[569] I don't remember.

[570] I don't remember.

[571] But I don't think it's incredibly relevant.

[572] This is what I want to go through.

[573] I then have seen you.

[574] I even watched a bunch of interviews with you this morning.

[575] And I noticed, like, if you do Andy Cohen, you have to answer who you would fuck.

[576] Right.

[577] Ironically, he asked if you would fuck me. That was one of, like, I don't know how I made that list.

[578] Yeah, it was like, Tom Selleck he wanted to know about.

[579] Oh, my God.

[580] I have no. I really don't maintain.

[581] How can you?

[582] You do so many interviews, you just, they rightly data dump those to make room for real life.

[583] Data dump, that's great.

[584] Because honestly, even like specials, as soon as they're done, they're out.

[585] They're out of my brain.

[586] I couldn't remember a single one.

[587] Yeah.

[588] And it's probably as weird to you, right, that fans of yours, I may remember more of your jokes than you do.

[589] Yeah, I do just kind of dump it out after, but...

[590] Right.

[591] Yeah.

[592] By the way, you said you would not have sex with me. That was your answer.

[593] Yeah, it's because you're married to Kristen.

[594] I know, but I felt like even, like...

[595] You're very attractive man. That was probably Inside and out.

[596] That was probably the correct answer, but I was like, oh, she would fuck, because you said you'd fuck Tom Selleck.

[597] And I was like, well, that makes.

[598] Yeah.

[599] Who doesn't?

[600] And also just that we're, you know, when you're talking, it's basically fantasy.

[601] And like, he seems like Republican -ish.

[602] And, you know, I have like there's like a fantasy, you want different things than what you want in real life.

[603] Well, you can almost, too, I think there's like literature on this.

[604] You can kind of be attracted to your oppressor.

[605] It's kind of like what Stockholm syndrome.

[606] I know this is the weirdest thing to put out there right now, but just anecdotally, in my own experience, I couldn't look more Aryan.

[607] And I grew up among a lot of Jewish people at West Bloomfield, Michigan.

[608] And I found that those Jewish girls were inordinately attracted to me, way more than the blonde girls were.

[609] Oh, yeah.

[610] And I thought, there's something psychological going on here.

[611] You know, it's not like I'm that objectively just handsome.

[612] There's something happening here.

[613] Yeah, it's exotic.

[614] It's exciting.

[615] Something different.

[616] I mean...

[617] Could it be darker than that?

[618] You know, the guy who created J -Date met his wife on J -Date and she's Asian.

[619] It's all Jewish guys and Asian women.

[620] Oh, really?

[621] Not all, but very much.

[622] Well, that's one of the many stereotypes about Jewish people that I like is that they say Jewish men make the best husbands.

[623] Have you heard that stereotype?

[624] I've heard that, yeah.

[625] Yeah.

[626] I will say, being with myriad...

[627] types of men.

[628] Right.

[629] And I really have, I think, you know, I want to grow and, you know, and like figure out, you know, what I'm drawn to more.

[630] But I do have very good taste in men.

[631] I love my exes.

[632] I mean, I love them.

[633] Yeah.

[634] You know, but I don't, I've never understood how you just stop loving someone.

[635] Couldn't agree with you more.

[636] I'm friends with every ex -girlfriend I had.

[637] I don't, like, if you've loved someone, I don't understand how you turn that off.

[638] Like, I still very much love.

[639] There can me things that, like, I go, oh, that fucking, you know, but I love, I love them.

[640] Like, they feel like family.

[641] Yes, like something, yes.

[642] For me, a door slides up and like the whole sexual component is completely gone.

[643] Right.

[644] But I just, the love is so there still.

[645] I don't understand.

[646] But it's very evolved.

[647] Most people don't have that.

[648] Like, they need a separation once it's done.

[649] You know, but I'll accept that it's evolved, but I also think there might be a fucked up part of me that needs to.

[650] Always know you're liked by the person.

[651] You know, um.

[652] Yeah, I don't know.

[653] I mean, I, I'm just leaving it open that it might come from a weakness and not a strength.

[654] I don't know, but, um, yeah, but I think ultimately it is a strength to not be like, you know, have something negative.

[655] It wasn't something I felt like I needed to overcome and understand and realize it's, it's really, it's the, it is like the Silverman, seems like the Silverman sister way.

[656] Right.

[657] We all are.

[658] But I'll, I'll lay out another theory, which would be, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it, it's, it, it's, It largely depends on how that you exited that relationship.

[659] So if you're someone who found out they had fucked your best friend and your sister and all this stuff and blah, blah, then maybe you want it be as loving.

[660] But if you're someone that in a relationship has always demanded respect, that generally when you leave relationships, you don't feel like a victim, or you're smiling like one of your boyfriends fucked your sister and your best friend.

[661] Care.

[662] No, I did care.

[663] But with perspective and time, I, you know, I do still love him.

[664] Okay.

[665] But there was someone that did something similar to that.

[666] Yeah.

[667] Okay.

[668] Wow.

[669] I mean, I will say that in, by the way, by the way.

[670] In every relationship I've been in, it would never occur to me in a million years that he would cheat and I have been cheated on.

[671] I never in a million years thought it.

[672] And so it was shocking, but I, um, I, You know, and it changed me in a way that I wasn't happy to be changed where, like, in my next relationship, I said, if you cheat on me, I will murder you and go to jail forever.

[673] Because I just, I wanted to make sure, I don't want to ever wonder.

[674] I want to just know it won't happen.

[675] I can't imagine doing that to someone I'm with.

[676] I don't even see other men as sexual beings if I'm with someone.

[677] And I'm, I turn that off.

[678] I mean, I, you know.

[679] Well, and it sounds like it's easy for you to turn that off.

[680] Is it easy?

[681] Yeah.

[682] Okay.

[683] And if it's not, then I have to ask myself about the relationship I'm in.

[684] Yes, but I'm going to say something, even worse than the last couple things I said.

[685] But the other day I was saying, you know, I genuinely feel bad for pedophiles because I, I have never had to talk myself out of an urge to.

[686] towards a child.

[687] I just don't have that.

[688] I'm not wrestling with that.

[689] It's not like a, you know, I'm just stronger.

[690] I don't have that.

[691] No. Yeah.

[692] That's, I can't imagine anything worse than having to talk myself out of it.

[693] But now, strain I've had terrible time with.

[694] I have to talk myself out.

[695] Strain?

[696] Strain.

[697] Strain.

[698] Straying.

[699] Yeah, yes.

[700] In past relationships, for sure.

[701] I've had an open relationship.

[702] So I've come in my 20s, I was like, look, I'm not, I can't do this.

[703] Oh, God, that's true.

[704] When I was 19 and 20, I needed to know what every man's balls looked like.

[705] I won't believe you that.

[706] But I also, when I dated someone, I would say, when I'm with you, I'm with you.

[707] And when I'm not with you, you don't worry about where I am.

[708] Okay.

[709] Well, that's how I was too.

[710] I was never dishonest about it.

[711] I just, I knew my limits.

[712] I was someone who was wrestling.

[713] nonstop about it.

[714] Part of it, I'm a bigger part of it.

[715] I'm a approval junkie.

[716] I need approval from people I deem as having status or beauty or whatever thing.

[717] I need that approval.

[718] So I've fallen victim to that many times.

[719] One thing I will say about Jews in general, from what I understand, the religion of Jewishness is that sex is a positive thing, even just not for recreation, not just for recreating, but for enjoyment.

[720] Sure.

[721] loved having, I lost my virginity as a comedian when I was 19.

[722] Oh, that seems kind of late.

[723] Yeah, doesn't it?

[724] But I also, like, didn't get my period until I was almost 18.

[725] Oh, really?

[726] I was super tiny.

[727] When did you get boobs?

[728] I got boobs, like, I got my period and boobs at, like, 17.

[729] Uh -huh.

[730] And all of a sudden, I was, like, this sexualized being, but I had never been.

[731] I had always been just the quirky, funny, little scrawny kid, you know.

[732] Oh, that's interesting, because that kind of gets to.

[733] So I was a bedwetter until I was like 16.

[734] Do you think that was part of it?

[735] Yeah, because I was little.

[736] Ah.

[737] There's a, there's a bit of a mystery with you to me, which is you're super attractive.

[738] You've always been super duper attractive since I mean, I can see in my head the very moment I first saw you.

[739] You were on an episode of weekend update on Saturday Night Live.

[740] And I was like, they've got a 10 on Saturday Night Live.

[741] Like, this is crazy.

[742] And then I'm one of my first trips to Los Angeles.

[743] I saw you at a bar and I was like, oh my God, there's that girl and she's so beautiful in person.

[744] And to know that you chose the lane of like hanging out with dudes and being a comedian has always felt curious to me because I'm assuming you looked just like you looked at 19 when you were 15, but you didn't.

[745] So you were like a scrawny.

[746] What kind of kid were you in high school?

[747] Um, I was popular in that I was, I got along with all the different clicks and I stayed on the periphery.

[748] Okay.

[749] So I was liked, but I didn't have any problems with anybody and I wasn't, you know, I didn't have boyfriends per se.

[750] I mean, I had a couple boyfriends, but I, we never did anything more than like kiss a little bit.

[751] Yeah.

[752] I was just like, I wasn't.

[753] And were you funny?

[754] What was your stock and trade?

[755] Yeah, I was funny.

[756] So when you would get along with people, it was.

[757] like that was the first foot you were putting forward.

[758] Yes, Sarah was the funny one.

[759] You know, so I got along and I, you know, I got along with everybody.

[760] I didn't cause any waves.

[761] And I was not in, in no way threatening to anyone.

[762] Yeah.

[763] Well, then I wonder, like what, when you turned into the thing you then turned into, was that?

[764] Well, you must have noticed.

[765] I think most people do.

[766] I don't think you do, which is so fascinating.

[767] I mean, you're like, yeah, you're a unicorn in that you could have just been like a beautiful actress.

[768] That's not, I would have loved to be an ingenue.

[769] That's what I wanted.

[770] That was my dream.

[771] But I learned very early that wasn't available to me. Well.

[772] Because Jewish girls are the wacky friend.

[773] Yeah, yeah.

[774] Yeah, that's true.

[775] Was there any?

[776] Now, like, you see Jenny Slate star in things and stuff.

[777] And, you know, that's very exciting.

[778] an NBC executive who was Jewish, a man who told me the only attractive Jewish woman is Natalie Portman.

[779] You know, so she was the only one who, who, and I love her.

[780] Transcended her Jewishness.

[781] She was allowed to play people who deserved love.

[782] Uh -huh.

[783] And, you know, I talk about this, and this is my experience, but believe me, I know that there are plenty of women of color that are just starting to be able to also.

[784] So, you know, that, but they understand, too.

[785] It's like you're the, you're the friend.

[786] Monica, Monica's an actress.

[787] When's the last time you saw the, a female lead of a show or a movie?

[788] Mindy, but she did that all herself.

[789] And she's the first one.

[790] Yeah.

[791] It's, the walls are just breaking down.

[792] But, I mean, yeah, I mean, this was, I was told in no uncertain terms so that I was, you know, I could be the exposition for the, you know, I could say, but you're a lawyer and he loves you.

[793] You could recap.

[794] Like the second act for us.

[795] And after a bunch of those, I just decided that's not, I'd rather just do stand up or do my own thing.

[796] Right.

[797] Because here's something I've noticed in Hollywood and I have to imagine you've seen it too, which is there are a lot of men in Hollywood who they didn't get girls growing up.

[798] And then they achieve this level of fame that gives them access to all these women.

[799] Right.

[800] And there's something, it's like hard for them to compute.

[801] I've seen like the results be many.

[802] different things.

[803] I've seen it be misogyny on some level.

[804] Like, they hate women because now the women like them.

[805] It's rage.

[806] But it's also they want it.

[807] Of course.

[808] All you want.

[809] Jimmy Kimmel, when I dated him, I remember him saying, I would never want to date someone who wouldn't give me the time of day in high school.

[810] Someone who I know wouldn't like me in high school.

[811] And that's very rare for men, I think.

[812] Yeah.

[813] Totally.

[814] What you see a lot of and it extends beyond just women, but they end up occupying.

[815] this kind of alpha status role, but they just weren't that person in high school.

[816] They have kind of no training, and they just kind of mismanage it, or they're doing what they've seen and moved.

[817] I don't know, it's all clumsy.

[818] They become what they imagine is cool guy, so they all wear a, like, I know a guy who's like definitely was a nerd and then became very popular, and he's wonderful, but it's like he gets tans and he wears a leather jacket because that's what the cool guy is.

[819] Yeah, you drive a portion.

[820] Yeah.

[821] Yeah, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[822] So I'm sympathetic to that.

[823] But I'm wondering, you weirdly so all through high school, you kind of, we make our identity right in high school.

[824] For me, it was I had ninth and tenth grade.

[825] I just, I couldn't look crazier.

[826] I mean, I was 6 '3, 140, long, straight hair and back, perm on top, huge nose, acne.

[827] I was a fucking mess.

[828] Perm on top.

[829] My brother convinced me that we needed to get perms because our hair didn't have enough body.

[830] And I did it.

[831] And how are your pubs?

[832] My pubes were mildly straight.

[833] Yeah, yeah.

[834] Straight -ish, I guess.

[835] And God bless those two years because I said, oh, look, this face of yours isn't going to get you in the door.

[836] You've got to be funny.

[837] You got to get a perm.

[838] And then when that didn't work, I'm like, it's time to be funny and you got to be a good dancer.

[839] These are the things you're going to be.

[840] And those things I put a lot of time into, luckily.

[841] And then I turned out normal looking.

[842] But boy, those years kind of defined me in who I am.

[843] Like, you know, there are, you know, people who grow up with affluence or beauty.

[844] And honestly, like, my heart goes out to a lot of them because they do not have skills for life.

[845] And they never had to have a personality.

[846] And that can't be enjoyable.

[847] But clearly when you hit 19 and you go through puberty and you're very attractive.

[848] Then I lost my virginity to a comedian.

[849] And then that was it.

[850] I just like every, you know, and I got a reputation for fucking comics.

[851] But in my defense, women are attracted to smart, funny, you know, all those things like, you know, I wanted peers, not just peers, but people who are, you know, who were hilarious to me. That was what was attractive to me. And it's unfair to say, well, she fucked comics.

[852] And he, well, he just fucked waitress.

[853] I wasn't drawn to fucking waiters.

[854] I was drawn to fucking brilliant, you know, people that, you know, and guys in general were fine fucking waitresses.

[855] This is not to put down waitresses.

[856] I've been a waitress, but just used broad strokes.

[857] They could fuck every waitress in every town on the road and not get a reputation at all.

[858] And I was fucking like people who I still respect.

[859] adore and like our you know they're still in my life because they're comics you know but like it was well anyone i wasn't fucking more people than the guys no anyone you would have fucked they would have said she only does blank it's it's the difference between male and female sexuality it's like guys get to do whatever they want i i didn't have a guilt around my sexuality until i was told to so like to me i was like i remember i kept knoxima in my backpack so that i could wash my face wherever i wound up but like i would see guys and be like what do his balls look like what his balls look like and it didn't seem to me to be I wasn't getting favors in exchange I I everything I got from my own merit you know I remember even yeah no one's gonna buy a ticket to see you perform because you fucked someone they no love is a comic that's not really how it works that's not the calculus you don't fuck your way to the top in comedy yeah yeah to be funny but have you ever like kind of drilled down like into that a little bit which is, you know, for me, I have, I have a female friend who's a comic.

[860] She's very funny.

[861] And she likes this guy.

[862] And she was saying, but he's not funny.

[863] I don't know if, like, I can be with someone who's not funny.

[864] And I said, well, walk me through that.

[865] Like, you're afraid you're going to go to a party and he'll be boring and that'll kind of embarrass you.

[866] You, like, your wife is funny.

[867] Like, that's part of what you're attracted to.

[868] Yeah, but I'm dead honest about what is happening for me and my own ego, which is, and I said to her, and I'd say it to myself, are you sure that you're bothered he's not funny because he's not going to entertain you as much as you want the approval of someone who's also very, very funny and smart?

[869] Right.

[870] But the only way that it'll feel good is that the approval's coming from somebody that you respect and admire.

[871] Yeah, I always, when I like to say what I would like in a man. But that's bullshit.

[872] There's layers going on of attraction that are your ego being fulfilled, right?

[873] I would say for me, looking for a man, he doesn't, I would like it if he was funny.

[874] If he's not funny, that's fine.

[875] But he has to know that he is not funny.

[876] Right.

[877] Because I'm very much not attractive to someone who thinks he's funny and is not funny.

[878] Yes, that is a rough hang.

[879] Yeah.

[880] You would not have dated my father.

[881] He was certain I got my sense of humor from him and he would display.

[882] it everywhere we went together and it was quite cute and rough for me at times but stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare okay i'm going now all the way back to the sexuality thing because i so i've noticed that when you're on shows you get asked different questions than say a male comics going to get asked i guess if you notice that like and i i'm super guilty.

[883] of it.

[884] When I have been around you when I was younger, I'm very conscious of the fact that you're very attractive.

[885] Oh, this is the most exciting podcast in real, honestly.

[886] This is dead true.

[887] Like, you're crazy funny.

[888] I just, I'm a fan of your comedy, but you're super pretty.

[889] And so I can't stop kind of being aware of that.

[890] And I think I've always, in some way, wanted some validation from you that extended beyond just you being funny.

[891] And I have to imagine many of the people around you have had a similar thing.

[892] And is that exhausting?

[893] Are you even aware of it?

[894] You don't seem to be aware of it.

[895] That you, I would imagine, just want to be evaluated on being funny.

[896] But there's this sexual component.

[897] I would say that right now in my life, I love being objectified, you know, because it's thrilling at this point.

[898] I mean, Natasha Legerro, who's brilliant.

[899] Love her.

[900] Every time I would see her, she does something to me aesthetically that I just, my face hurts from smiling when I just see her and I look at what she's wearing and she just is, and I would just always go like, oh, I just want to eat you like a piece of candy.

[901] Like I just, I can't even take it.

[902] And at one point, she goes, you know, I'm more than that.

[903] And I go, oh my God, you're brilliant.

[904] I mean, like, to me, that's such a given because I'm such a fan, but she also is, just so aesthetically like it just she just does something to me chemically.

[905] Yeah.

[906] She feels so good on my eyeballs.

[907] I completely understand.

[908] But I of course I understood when she was like I'm, you know, I'm a comedian I'm an into, and I was just, you know, it's funny to me because of course I'm not.

[909] And don't reduce me to just mean a. But it is true.

[910] It's like women are just fucking demonized if they lose their looks in any way or if they if if they try to do something to their face to try to make them look to mitigate their asshole so there's there's it's like lose lose just by not dying that they are punished yeah by not dying and continuing to live in that your my faces um i like the way i look but i mean it's it's pointier it's my skin is looser uh i can my eyes are kind of closing a little i can feel like the my face falling off my face kind of a little bit, and I'm trying to embrace it.

[911] I mean, it's really fascinating.

[912] It's a very slow -moving horror movie.

[913] But I do think that it could have a happy ending because sometimes I go, oh, I'm not young and hot.

[914] I don't know if that's not my power anymore, but a different kind of power, you know.

[915] But I guess my point is, if I was talking to George Carlin, if he was here, I would have a million questions about his comedy.

[916] I would never make him walk down a path where I talk about his looks, but I am so drawn to talk about your looks, and I have to imagine that's nauseating.

[917] I also imagine I need to not do that.

[918] It's been a lot of time since that.

[919] It doesn't seem like it bothers you.

[920] I remember being on Jimmy's show, and, you know, I love Jimmy, but he said, I was wearing a football shirt or a baseball shirt, like, is my thing at the time, you know.

[921] And he goes, oh, you always wear a football shirt or something.

[922] And I, and I remember thinking, and I maybe I said this, but I just said, you, you know, you know what, uh, Seinfeld always wears a button down.

[923] Right.

[924] You're going to come on the show and you're going to go, why always wear a button down?

[925] You always have a button down.

[926] Right.

[927] Like, it's just fucking what I'm wearing.

[928] Yeah.

[929] Like, I can't imagine a guy.

[930] Like, every time Adam Krullo is on your show, he wears a maroon button down with a black blazer.

[931] You never mention that.

[932] You don't point that out.

[933] Yeah.

[934] I guess Jay Leno's not on the show a lot.

[935] But yeah, he's always in denim on denim.

[936] Yeah, he's his kind of look.

[937] Yeah, he's wearing a denim on denim.

[938] So it hasn't, do you think being pretty, though?

[939] I got to stop talking about it, but I'm going to keep talking about it.

[940] I know.

[941] Well, I'm trying to own it and work through it.

[942] And I'm trying to understand why I do it and just call myself out on it.

[943] But I saw this at the groundlings.

[944] When I was going through the ground lanes, I found that the girls or women that were really attractive, weirdly had a harder time.

[945] Not that you're ever going to feel bad for those people, but I think it elicited some jealousy with the other female cast members.

[946] I think people that were watching the audience weren't accustomed to seeing someone pretty be very funny.

[947] Like, I think there were just weird hurdles that I noticed that I thought, oh, that's so weird.

[948] I never thought I'd be sympathetic to someone who's really attractive.

[949] But in comedy, it can be dicey.

[950] Well, I think what makes people funny is...

[951] a survival skill that they had developed in childhood.

[952] So a lot of times it was the fat kid making the fat jokes before anyone else could or the ugly, you know, whatever ugly is, you know, whatever.

[953] And so for me, I would say I was very hairy as very her suit.

[954] I was very, you know, especially, you know, I was in a very blonde, strawberry blonde world.

[955] Yeah.

[956] And I was teased for that.

[957] I was a bedwetter and sent to sleepaway camp every summer.

[958] and so I had a healthy amount of adversity to make me very funny.

[959] Right.

[960] But there's all, it isn't what, your looks are not always your adversity.

[961] I think that, like, maybe growing up ugly as you did.

[962] Yeah.

[963] Well, let's just be clear, ninth and tenth grade.

[964] But, like, you know, some people will look at you and go, like, you're a good looking white guy.

[965] oh, it's so hard for you.

[966] Everybody, there's always going to be someone who has it harder and always going to be someone who has it not as hard.

[967] You know, I mean, people are used to what they are used to, and when they see something that is not what is from their rolodex of what they know, it's going to be harder for them to believe.

[968] That is not on a woman who looks a certain way to, that's not their problem.

[969] But I will say a lot of times, you know, you might hear a white male writer, for me, I'll say comedy writer, a white male comedy writer who says, I can't even get a job anymore.

[970] I can't get a job because I'm a white man. And to that I say, sure you can.

[971] You just have to be undeniable like everybody else besides you has had to be.

[972] Right, right, right.

[973] You have to be indispensable and undeniable.

[974] And I believe in you.

[975] I think you can do that.

[976] But, you know, men don't take that extra.

[977] They don't go, not men, men, like, like anything, but some men, hashtag not all men.

[978] Some men go, oh, it's harder for me now.

[979] That's not fair.

[980] And they don't take that extra step and go, oh, this is how it's been for everybody else.

[981] Yeah.

[982] And it's like...

[983] And I don't even think it's at the point where it's like everybody else.

[984] We're not even there.

[985] Absolutely not.

[986] Yeah.

[987] Not even close.

[988] So, you know, I only ask people to take it one more step to see, take it beyond their own selves.

[989] I'm kind of conflating a couple different topics, actually, because I will say that I've been told by other comedians I admire, like, hey, dude, you can't be in good shape.

[990] Like, that's not what a comedian isn't in good shape.

[991] shape, which is a weird, there's a weird bracket.

[992] Black comedians can be in great shape.

[993] Like Eddie Murphy was a sex symbol and he dressed cool and he had a leather suit.

[994] And he can do that.

[995] When white guys aren't supposed to do that, it's very interesting.

[996] It's just fascinating.

[997] I would say if your whole thing is your rock hard abs, it's not wildly funny.

[998] Eddie Murphy wasn't lifting a shirt showing his abs on his poster for his comedy special.

[999] He wasn't.

[1000] There are some people who do that, and I find it, and I think they're funny, and it's, but there's something heartbreaking about it because it isn't, you know, I remember seeing, and this is a comedian, I'll say, a comedian's headshot.

[1001] And his headshot was two, whatever fancy cars are, I don't know anything about cars, Maserati.

[1002] Oh, I know who this is.

[1003] Ferraris or something, parks like this and this, and his foot's up on one.

[1004] And that's just not what comedy is.

[1005] You have, it's like, it's an underdog thing.

[1006] And it isn't cool to like stuff.

[1007] I mean, also, that's another thing that I'm lucky about.

[1008] I've never understood it.

[1009] I don't know what, like, what special ed diamonds that other people can't have them?

[1010] You know, like, I just don't.

[1011] I think primarily, yeah.

[1012] I never understood fancy cars or expensive or things.

[1013] has never been anything that I've, luckily for me, pinned my worth on.

[1014] If anything, the opposite, I mean, I just, I would be so embarrassed to drive a schmancy car or have stuff.

[1015] I don't have storage in my apartment, so it's like I can't even have stuff.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] I can't, if I can't fit it on a shelf, it goes.

[1018] Well, but I think that probably just speaks to you having found a lot of fulfillment and validation and attention.

[1019] through doing something else.

[1020] I'm raised by people who are not into stuff.

[1021] Well, okay, yes.

[1022] But what I'm saying is I can be mildly sympathetic when I see the guy in front of Jerry's deli and he's in a Lamborghini and he's making a real meal out of getting into this car.

[1023] He's been there for fucking eight minutes and I'm trying, right?

[1024] And at first I'm like, look at this douche.

[1025] Oh, I hate this guy.

[1026] What a loser.

[1027] Blah, blah, blah.

[1028] And then I go, you know, this guy probably isn't funny.

[1029] He can't dance.

[1030] He can't ride wheelies on a motorcycle.

[1031] and he wants what I want.

[1032] And I'm no better.

[1033] He just doesn't have the tools.

[1034] His way of validation is somewhere else.

[1035] Is that the fucking valet at Jerry's Deli?

[1036] And I find it repugnant, but I'm also sympathetic.

[1037] Like, we're all want the same thing.

[1038] We deserve love.

[1039] Yes.

[1040] We all want the same thing.

[1041] We want like approval and love and people to be attracted to us, not even meaning romantically, just drawn to us.

[1042] And we're all trying all these various techniques.

[1043] and some of them are really egg on the facie.

[1044] I find the, you know, the purple Lamborghini to be a bummer.

[1045] But I feel terrible for that guy.

[1046] If I get this expensive card, then girls will know I'm rich and then they'll like me. And then I go, why are those the girls you want?

[1047] Yeah, well, they're better than no girls, I think.

[1048] But is that, it's hot, vapid, twats or nothing?

[1049] Are better than your hand.

[1050] But there are so many more women than men, men have, the worst man can find love.

[1051] You know what I mean?

[1052] That is true.

[1053] My mom's finding herself in that situation.

[1054] Not that she's even ready to date, but her husband died six months ago and I've been talking to her a lot about it.

[1055] And she's like, you know, Max, let's just be honest.

[1056] I'm 68.

[1057] And if I want to catch someone who's like intellectually stimulating and a good time, I got a shop in the 80 year old.

[1058] Because anyone my age that's a guy who's intelligent and funny, he's going to be with a 50 year old woman.

[1059] That's just the fucking facts on planet Earth.

[1060] Yeah.

[1061] I don't like this dynamic.

[1062] There are a handful of men who want to be with a peer.

[1063] There are a handful.

[1064] You're right.

[1065] So I have friends that are like, you could totally date a younger guy.

[1066] And I go, thank you.

[1067] I know you mean that as a compliment.

[1068] But I'm just not interested.

[1069] I, you know, oh, I'm so lucky that I could be loved by someone in their 30s, I guess.

[1070] But I want to be with someone my.

[1071] age.

[1072] I want to be with someone who knows the aches and pains and perspective of being in your 40s, well into your 40s.

[1073] Yeah.

[1074] Yeah, well, you're, you're...

[1075] But, like, so that means I have to be with a 60 -year -old?

[1076] I think I can be with someone exactly my age.

[1077] I like having you hear so much.

[1078] I don't know.

[1079] I don't...

[1080] I don't...

[1081] I this did not go the direction.

[1082] I thought it would go.

[1083] Oh, what direction did you think?

[1084] I thought we would talk more about comedy and work.

[1085] Oh, yeah.

[1086] But I'm only so interested in that.

[1087] I'm super interested in why we all do the things we do.

[1088] But the things you're talking about are things that aren't my doing.

[1089] You're right.

[1090] I'm talking about some societal things.

[1091] There are other people's perceptions of me of which I have no control.

[1092] You're right.

[1093] Yeah, don't have to do with me. Well, one of the things that has to do with you that I wanted to ask you about, and you've brought it up a couple times.

[1094] so it's not a totally um um um graceless segue but you peed the bed a ton and then even after you got fired from s andl you you you peed the bed like three times in a week was that a bit or that's real that's true yeah that's true right three i peed the bed three times with three different men in the bed one was a friend right i was just sleeping in his bed yeah and uh two were were lovers right i've um i've woken up in a wet bed a couple times but both of of us had blacked out.

[1095] And I don't know who did it.

[1096] We kind of blamed each other.

[1097] But regardless, even when I thought it was her, I didn't really care.

[1098] But it wasn't that big of a deal.

[1099] And that was your experience, right?

[1100] Well, one was my friend Dave Rath, who I was staying with him while I was out here in L .A. and we're very good friends.

[1101] And if he didn't hook up with someone, then I would sleep in bed with him.

[1102] Right.

[1103] There was sleep on the couch.

[1104] That was the deal.

[1105] And it was fine.

[1106] And that night, we went to a party until really late.

[1107] And I slept in his bed with him and I woke up at like four in the morning and I had I couldn't believe it I had peed in his bed and my heart and I it just took me right back to being a kid the shame and I just thought if I don't tell him right now I'm gonna I see it will be bad so I just like hit him and I go Dave I peed in your bed and he just went until calves put a towel down oh my god I love you so much You know, now having kids who occasionally pee the bed.

[1108] You're just so tired in the middle of the thing.

[1109] You're like, I don't care.

[1110] Just throw towels down.

[1111] Throw a couple more blanket.

[1112] I'll ruin anything just to get me back to sleep.

[1113] And then we'll fucking deal with it in the morning.

[1114] But you've been through therapy.

[1115] Is there a known thing for peeing the bed?

[1116] Is it like a predictable outcome for some stage you're wrestling with?

[1117] Do you know?

[1118] I mean, with that, I don't know what it was.

[1119] It was just, who knows, may, you know, seem like some kind of regret.

[1120] aggressive, I don't know, but, but in terms of, like, being a bedwitter as a kid, you were the baby of the family, right?

[1121] You're the youngest.

[1122] I was a baby, um, but my dad was a bedwitter and my oldest sister was a bedweter.

[1123] So maybe you're just like genetically per - it's like aneurysic, like you're little.

[1124] We, we all were little until like a late growth spurt.

[1125] Uh -huh.

[1126] And then we were like, you know, I'm fairly tall and, you know, I'm not small.

[1127] Right.

[1128] But I, you know, and I've got big boobs, but I was totally flat -chested and and I didn't, I like had to just one summer growth spurt really late.

[1129] I just, like, you know, do anything about OCD?

[1130] Yeah.

[1131] Okay.

[1132] Did you ever have it?

[1133] No, no, but I'm familiar with it.

[1134] So I did the, I had crazy OCD as a kid, and I had all these, like, fucking routines I had to do and everything had to be done twice.

[1135] And it was maddening, right, for a long stretch.

[1136] And then I was taught, I ran into someone, an actor, and she was telling me that she pulls her eyelashes out, right?

[1137] which is, is an OCD thing.

[1138] And I said, oh, yeah, I had OCD when I was a kid or whatever, you want to call it.

[1139] And she goes, well, you know, obviously why you have OCD?

[1140] And I'm like, no, why do I have OCD?

[1141] And she goes, oh, well, you pick these weird things that you can control because you're in an environment you feel very out of control.

[1142] And then I just kind of went backwards and I was like, oh, by God, I started doing all that stuff.

[1143] the moment this one stepdad showed up in my life, and then that just kind of ran until he disappeared.

[1144] And I was like, oh, my God, it's that simple.

[1145] Like, it was really, that's what it was.

[1146] Wow.

[1147] And I think so many of these things I read, I don't know that this is.

[1148] A lot of those things, eating disorders, they're all control issues.

[1149] They're all, like, I think that's what's what's.

[1150] I mean, a lot of people become cops because they have no control in their lives.

[1151] 100%.

[1152] And in people, there's literature on asthma being a way that kids can control their environment.

[1153] There's a lot of research about it being psychosomatic and a way for you to take a little margin of control over your life.

[1154] And I think so many of these things we all have, right, there's all these different outcomes to some very basic stuff that happens to us.

[1155] One I'm noticing as an adult in the age we're at is I have an autoimmune disease, psoriotic arthritis.

[1156] I have friends who have gout.

[1157] I have friends who have this, who have that.

[1158] To me, it's like, oh, we're all allergic to some of the food we eat and it can take a billion shapes mine happens to be psoriotic arthritis for this person it's rosacea for this person it's that but i think at the core of it all we're probably just eating some stuff we're allergic to and that's the outcome and similarly in childhood it's like you can have any number of things that are a result of maybe not feeling in control on any level yeah and i was just wondering if like bedwetting was somehow a decision you were going to fucking make whether anyone liked it or not.

[1159] I have I've been told different things because it's it's all so muddy and like one thing I remember being told was that I stopped waiting the bed at a normal age and then started again when my parents got divorced but then I asked my dad and sister recently and they said no I think you always were but it's just it's just muddy I'm not really sure yeah but I mean God, I wished more than anything I wouldn't wet the bed.

[1160] But, of course, that's not part of it, yeah.

[1161] But it's certainly suspicious.

[1162] It's not like, well, who knows?

[1163] Maybe you had a physical component.

[1164] Maybe there's a valve in there that's, you got from your dad.

[1165] Who knows?

[1166] But I think it's definitely curious if there was a spell after divorce, and then there was a spell after getting fired.

[1167] Because hered, I mean, hereditary, things can be hereditary that aren't just physical.

[1168] Right, yeah.

[1169] My dad was a chronic bedwetter, and his dad beat the shit out of him every day.

[1170] Uh -huh.

[1171] And, you know, so maybe that's connected.

[1172] I don't know.

[1173] Yeah.

[1174] And, you know, I have, were you guys talking about misophonia?

[1175] Yeah.

[1176] Oh, yeah, misophonia.

[1177] We love that here.

[1178] I have that.

[1179] You do.

[1180] And it's since early teens.

[1181] And it gets worse and worse and worse and worse.

[1182] And it's fucking real.

[1183] And have you done a 23M -me test, DNA test?

[1184] You did it?

[1185] Well, I did that Finding Your Roots show, so you have to do that and Ancestry .com, but I don't, I think this stuff's progressing very rapidly as they get more and more people submitting.

[1186] They're learning things really quickly.

[1187] But one of them now, when you do it, say you had done it when Monica and I did it like a few months ago, it'll tell you if you have the genetic marker for misophonia.

[1188] Like they know whether you have it or not from your DNA.

[1189] Oh my God.

[1190] They know if I have wet, they told me I have wet ear wax and Monica has dry ears.

[1191] But they're right.

[1192] Like you can like, you know if you have wet or dry earwax and it's all been pretty accurate.

[1193] And Monica, trying to get too jealous, she is elite muscle mass. I don't want to brag, but yeah.

[1194] Elite athlete muscle mass. Wow.

[1195] And I did not put it to use.

[1196] Oh, well, that's probably just as well.

[1197] You get more injuries.

[1198] I thought I'm so fucked up.

[1199] My back and shit, like my knees.

[1200] And it's just, I'm in training just to live the rest of my life comfortably.

[1201] and I like playing sports and stuff.

[1202] But I was like, this is so unfair.

[1203] I was an athlete all growing up.

[1204] And the guy was like, oh, yeah, that's why.

[1205] I want to hear more a little, just a tiny bit more about musiconia.

[1206] Like, what do you get triggered by?

[1207] What sounds?

[1208] What I've definitely learned is because some people, people will be like crunching in front of me and go, oh my God, I'm sorry.

[1209] I'm, you know, and I go, oh, no, it didn't bother me at all.

[1210] But it's if I, if I have any stress in my body at all, it gets triggered.

[1211] And if I hear someone wrestling with a Frito's rapper or, I mean, God, I will just say, the idea of someone eating an apple in a quiet car is the most terrifying thing I can think of in my life.

[1212] How do you feel about like someone chewing a gigantic piece of gum?

[1213] Terrible.

[1214] Now, I, and this is just like my dad, it's so crazy, I secretly chew gum.

[1215] I chew gum in my car.

[1216] and sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of night and just sit up in bed and chew gum.

[1217] Oh, wow.

[1218] Like maniacally?

[1219] Yes, maniacally.

[1220] Yeah, yeah.

[1221] And there are some people that chew gum, like the way I chew gum, and it's not, you know, their mouth is closed and it's not like, but if there is, you know, if I have any control, like on a show or something, there's no gum on set because I just sound people more than anyone I know, chomp gum.

[1222] Yeah.

[1223] And, you know, if someone's in my eye line or this, I don't even notice.

[1224] I'm never, never bothered by that.

[1225] But if someone in the corner of my eye is chomping gum, I can't remember a line.

[1226] I don't know a single thing I'm about to say because I'm, my brain, I get paralyzed.

[1227] I get completely get paralyzed.

[1228] And then I have to contend with a rage I can't control, like a rage in my body that I desperately plead with.

[1229] and I go, this is just a person eating.

[1230] They're not, they're minding.

[1231] They just want to, their breath to smell nice.

[1232] You know, and I, but mostly what I do is I just immediately take myself out of the situation.

[1233] I don't want to make anyone feel bad.

[1234] I don't want to, but if I'm in a situation where I am stuck, like if a makeup lady at a job is chomping gum, I'll have to say something.

[1235] And I just say, this is me. I have a fucking weird thing.

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] And it's not you.

[1238] and I can only just ask if you would not chew gum around me because I have a fucked up thing.

[1239] You must hate having to say that.

[1240] Oh, it's awful.

[1241] You know, it's so embarrassing.

[1242] And luckily, oftentimes people understand and they go, oh, God, sorry, totally, you know.

[1243] But it is, it's so scary because I know it's me and it's not them.

[1244] And I, you know, and I can only just hope that they'll be.

[1245] kind even if they don't understand it.

[1246] If you don't understand something personally, it's very hard for people to have any kind of sympathy.

[1247] Yes.

[1248] And so it's, and it's so weird and bizarre.

[1249] It's not, it's a clicking a pen.

[1250] Someone's clicking a pen.

[1251] Click, click, click, click, click, click.

[1252] I mean, I, it's, I go out of my fucking mind.

[1253] I want more than anything.

[1254] Chewing ice is just, feels like an assault.

[1255] I want so bad to put you in a room Handcuffed And I want to send Kristen in With her gum You know what?

[1256] Kristen has chewed gum in front of me No way She is the worst The worst And there is something about her It's so aggressive That it doesn't bother me Oh my I don't know what it is It makes no sense Now I suppose if I had stress in my body It would be bad and I would have to say something And it's not because like She's Kristen Bell because there have been people that I, you know, I'm horrified that I have to, because I can't take myself in the situation to, I mean, I watched the shape of water.

[1257] Mm -hmm.

[1258] Did you see that movie?

[1259] I did, yeah.

[1260] It's a lovely movie, a beautiful fairy tale.

[1261] Michael Shannon's character eats these hard candies.

[1262] Oh, I loved that.

[1263] I loved that.

[1264] It was full -blown panic attack for me because I was watching it with a group of people.

[1265] I had to block my ears, close my eyes, and make noise in my head.

[1266] He'd let it clank in his teeth and stuff, which I really liked.

[1267] Oh, my God.

[1268] I mean, Brad Pitt, who I really love as an actor, very attractive, very, just thinking about him.

[1269] He eats in every movie, and I have to block my ears and close my eyes real tight and just take myself to another place.

[1270] So Ocean's 11 is just a pass for you.

[1271] That's where he ate in every scene famously.

[1272] I can't.

[1273] I can't.

[1274] So loud.

[1275] Well, but I don't have it.

[1276] I don't have misophonia, but occasionally I'll be with Kristen.

[1277] And I honestly, if I turned to the right in a Clydesdale horse was chewing a full pack of hubba -bubba, I wouldn't be surprised.

[1278] That's how loud and wet and wet it is.

[1279] It's out of control.

[1280] It's really, really.

[1281] I've never noticed it.

[1282] You haven't?

[1283] No, I don't notice it.

[1284] I'm shocked.

[1285] It's very aggressive.

[1286] And there's a part of me. and my misophonia that would look at that and think that's so fucking rude.

[1287] But she's not at all her intention.

[1288] She's just chewing gum.

[1289] You know that she's coming from a great place.

[1290] And she'd stop if you asked her.

[1291] My dad definitely has it.

[1292] Because growing up, we would chew gum and he would say, Ugh, only whores chew gum.

[1293] Oh, wow.

[1294] But I know it's because...

[1295] Did he elaborate?

[1296] Elaborate?

[1297] No, he just would shame us into spitting out our gum.

[1298] but it was, I know it's because now I know he had misophonic.

[1299] It starts in your teens, too, and for me it was hearing my stepfather, who was the kindest, most wonderful man you could ever meet, John O 'Hara, I could hear his saliva mixing his food in his mouth.

[1300] And that was it taking hold of me. It wasn't him.

[1301] He was just eating.

[1302] Right.

[1303] But it would, I just, every night would eat dinner in my room because I couldn't.

[1304] Bear.

[1305] Could you ever handle it?

[1306] Is this a problem with relationships?

[1307] Like if you're at dinner with them?

[1308] Yeah, well, because I've had boyfriends who just say, you are being rude and you're just deciding to, you have a, you aren't, you know.

[1309] You're making yourself feel this way.

[1310] Yeah, and he just believed I was making it up.

[1311] And then, like, I've had boyfriends who really understand and go like, I'm going to, you know what, I'm going to eat this series.

[1312] in the kitchen.

[1313] Oh, that's thoughtful.

[1314] I got to be honest, before we saw that there was a genetic marker for it, I thought it was horseshit myself.

[1315] I really found it.

[1316] I just thought, oh, no, you're just crazy intolerant of other people.

[1317] Intolerant.

[1318] That's what he said.

[1319] Yeah.

[1320] Oh.

[1321] I bet I know who said that.

[1322] Do you exercise regularly?

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] And how much of that is for mental?

[1325] Because back back to like people telling me you're too in shape to be a comic.

[1326] Well, I'm like, people also say don't get mentally healthy.

[1327] Well, that's my kind of point, which is like, ultimately I have to be me. Whether or not that fits into some box, like me mentally, I have to work out or I will be on antidepressants.

[1328] It's just that simple.

[1329] I need to do X amount of exercise a week or I will need to be on antidepressants.

[1330] So there's no option.

[1331] I'm going to, I guess I could eat really shitty too, but I kind of want to live.

[1332] You can absolutely be in shape and be funny.

[1333] They just are saying, don't oil up your abs and photo.

[1334] Well, I've done that in a movie, so I guess they had a point.

[1335] I also, the older I get, I'm okay with people disagreeing, too, with my route, right?

[1336] Isn't that kind of like one of the nice things?

[1337] I'll be like, well, Sarah said this.

[1338] I used to be a fan.

[1339] No, I'm not.

[1340] And then I would go, oh.

[1341] And then I just go like, yeah, I'm definitely going to disappoint you if you're looking for me to say everything you agree with.

[1342] Yes.

[1343] I had the pleasure of performing with you a couple times at last.

[1344] Largo in my brief run at doing stand -up.

[1345] One of the time, one of the, the, the sets you did there was explaining that you had done a bit at a TED conference and that there, a TED talk, and that there was all this fallout over it.

[1346] And then what you had come to realize in the end is that if you were to apologize for this routine you did, you'd actually just be apologizing to advocates, not the people.

[1347] people themselves.

[1348] Do you remember this?

[1349] Oh, yes.

[1350] Yeah, well, there's another example of this, too, where I don't remember that as a bit, but on the Sarah Silverin program, we had mentally challenged people on the show, and they didn't want to let us do that.

[1351] And I said, you're not letting us talk about people who exist in the world and have, and I have them in this because this is comedy.

[1352] And it's an art form that you don't think can reflect the world.

[1353] But it more than anything reflects the world.

[1354] When I heard that, I found that to be weirdly liberating.

[1355] That's right.

[1356] Oh, so when we were going to have, and we did, we had some mentally challenged people on the show.

[1357] And, but yeah, it's just, you're not responding to, you're not worried about mentally challenged people.

[1358] You're worried about their advocates.

[1359] And as someone who believes I am an advocate, I think they should be reflected in art. Because it means they exist and they exist and they're beautiful.

[1360] Yeah.

[1361] It's weird.

[1362] Yeah.

[1363] The alternative is like just, I guess, ignore that they're even here.

[1364] I'm regularly defending the notion of the whack pack to people because I'm like, okay, let's just really look at this.

[1365] So here's a weird mix of people.

[1366] Some of them are addicts.

[1367] One guy's a drunk.

[1368] Some of them are mentally challenged.

[1369] Someone has a speech impediment, blah, blah, blah.

[1370] You don't like them being used on the show because you think they're being made fun of.

[1371] And then my argument is, okay, I'm looking at all their lives and they have this purpose.

[1372] They're famous like we wanted to be famous.

[1373] They have this whole life and world.

[1374] They should be what.

[1375] So their character is in this play.

[1376] They want to be a character in this play.

[1377] and they're having all this fun as a result of it.

[1378] I'm not seeing how excluding them from that would be kinder.

[1379] Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

[1380] I waver.

[1381] I don't have a definitive take on it.

[1382] It always bothered me calling Wendy the retard.

[1383] Yes.

[1384] But I do like how Howard has changed with the times.

[1385] He used to say faggot all the time.

[1386] Yeah.

[1387] And he would never.

[1388] say that today.

[1389] And it's not because it's socially unacceptable.

[1390] It's because he fundamentally changed.

[1391] He would, I don't think he would have any desire to say that word anymore.

[1392] Yes.

[1393] And, and I, you know, I think it's interesting that he's willing to air old episodes where he says that because I think that's, he's exposing something.

[1394] He's not erasing it from history.

[1395] And it really has a whole new meaning.

[1396] It's uglier.

[1397] It's, you know, they, and I like the changes.

[1398] Like Eric the Midget became Eric the actor.

[1399] Yes, yes.

[1400] You know, and Wendy, the slow adult, you know, and as long as he grows and changes and lets the show reflect that, I think it's interesting.

[1401] Well, and then to the very last thing I want to talk to you about is we're in a really unique phase where everything we've done is pretty much accessible at all times now.

[1402] You know, if you were Carlin, you couldn't.

[1403] just go see a set of his you couldn't bring it up on youtube you know there was like a certain i can't explain it but he was free to live in a certain time period and then he was free to evolve and then he was free to be evaluated on that day about that thing and you couldn't just kind of bring something back and shove it in his face but we now are in that reality and we're comedians and to your point about howard we're evolving all the time i used to so much i cringe about Right.

[1404] And I'm done.

[1405] I mean, oh, good grief.

[1406] And what's interesting is like your kind of job is to take it to the very edge.

[1407] That's really your job and see if you can stay just barely inside the boundary of that.

[1408] And your particular brand of comedy, as I understood it, was you're speaking kindly and then you're saying horrific things.

[1409] And that in itself is the bit is that it's coming.

[1410] at you, it's like a flower that's got a shit smell to it.

[1411] It's like that's the premise.

[1412] That is so sweet.

[1413] A beautiful flower that smells like shit.

[1414] A bit of a formula to what I was doing in the beginning.

[1415] And it certainly was a character where I would say the opposite of how I really felt.

[1416] Uh -huh.

[1417] And that was the comedy, the contrast of how it was represented and what and the explicitness of how it was presented.

[1418] And then my hope was that the, to use a math term, the absolute value transcended.

[1419] Because you can only feel safe laughing at something fucked up is if you know, if you feel like that person going back to what we were talking about, a dice.

[1420] Yeah, has good intentions.

[1421] Yeah.

[1422] And I also think you were.

[1423] It was an arrogant, ignorant character.

[1424] And that was then when I did the Sarah's Women program was.

[1425] that was all what that was.

[1426] And then I found I had a real identity crisis after my first special because I go, oh, well, who am I?

[1427] I'm this.

[1428] I do this thing.

[1429] And the whole thing about it was the element of surprise.

[1430] But so if I do that thing that people like about me, there is no surprise.

[1431] It's what they're expecting.

[1432] And then, like, I got so caught up in worrying about what others want to see.

[1433] and it took me realizing that comedy dies in the second guessing and you just got to keep evolving and you lose fans.

[1434] You have to be willing to lose fans.

[1435] You have to be willing to bomb because otherwise you're not writing new shit or reflecting who you are now.

[1436] Yeah.

[1437] But there's stuff that I did that I'm ashamed of now, not just because it's not no longer accepted, but because I now have more information and I like being changed by new information and I thought I was so woke I grew up in white New Hampshire with bleeding heart liberal parents and I knew that racism existed and that it was something that I could only understand that I don't understand but that's as far as it went and so because I I do see the fucked up liberal bubbleness of of a of a stuff that I did when I started out because it was all based on I know this is wrong so I can say it.

[1438] Right.

[1439] But it didn't ever occur to me because of my only experience I had to see the world through was my own white experience, that that could hurt people.

[1440] And I really have no interest in that.

[1441] And I also believe I can make people laugh without, now you can't please everybody.

[1442] But certainly there are things that cut people that I wasn't, that I was ignorant to.

[1443] Yeah, well, there's, there's part of your brain right who's that's going, no, that is the joke that this is a vile thing to say.

[1444] This is a joke about racism.

[1445] I'm illuminating racism.

[1446] Like my favorite thing that, my favorite joke of yours in that period was my ex -boyfriend who's half black.

[1447] Oh, God, I just listening to how I've said that.

[1448] I'm so negative.

[1449] He's half white.

[1450] I fucked it up.

[1451] Well, because you have to say, uh, you know, uh, it was something, there had to be something that was negative that wasn't that.

[1452] So it was something like, oh, I fucking fucked up this whole relationship with this boyfriend, I, with my boyfriend who was half black.

[1453] And, you know, then I say, oh, I'm being so negative.

[1454] I shouldn't say that.

[1455] He's half white.

[1456] But I can't remember that makes it look like I'm being negative in some other way.

[1457] Uh -huh.

[1458] So there's so many.

[1459] ways to look at that.

[1460] So obviously you're making to me a very obvious joke of why that would be vile to say.

[1461] That's the joke in and of itself.

[1462] But then also, and now this perspective of mine is only a few years old, which is like, oh, but that's not to say that if you're black and you're listening to that, that you're not like, yeah, I get the joke.

[1463] Because they may be aware of people who truly see that is better to be white.

[1464] Yes.

[1465] And they may. go, oh, right, I get it.

[1466] It's true, but it's not funny and it's this or that.

[1467] And also, probably, which is becoming more obvious to us all now is even if that's a joke that should be made, not by you.

[1468] Like that's now, I think, in my own experience, I'm starting to own the fact that I've made a lot of jokes that it wasn't.

[1469] Although the joke, I would end up defending the logic of the joke and never really acknowledge, well, I'm not the person to say that joke.

[1470] It's so funny because the whole thing about um i remember hearing about like uh um i mean i'd have to ask chris about this one like chris rock when he had his show on hbo he hired a lot of racist boston white guys because their racist jokes out of his mouth are great are fucking hilarious and have and and work you know in a new in a totally different way and he was brilliant enough to see that and also not you know he knew these guys comics are all one thing you know ultimately but um but it is kind of i mean you know i don't think they were actually racist but just like that to take those ideas of race and put it through his filter had a whole different meaning that was brilliant yeah yeah i mean the last roast i did years ago i remember i had to write jokes for a mazies and like i just said like, oh, fuck it.

[1471] Like, I go, I didn't want to, I don't want to hurt his feelings.

[1472] I don't know why.

[1473] You know what I mean?

[1474] And so I remember just saying, like, I'm just going to do racist Indian jokes because then it's, that's, in a roast, I would rather have someone do, I'm a cheap Jew joke because it's so not personal and it's just about writing shitty, roasty jokes about that.

[1475] Yeah.

[1476] Then, you know, like something that would, you know, ring to.

[1477] true, you know, like, you know, about my, you know, looks or personality or whatever.

[1478] So, I mean, in a way, I was like, that was me saying, like, I'm, I'm just going to, for right or for wrong.

[1479] I mean, it's stupid.

[1480] Well, and I heard you mention something about the roast that you noticed that where the roast is sexist is that the burns on you were all of a sudden all about aging.

[1481] It was so funny because I was the one backstage going, you guys, the jokes are, you know, we're going to tell jokes about each other, but we love these.

[1482] other and it's nothing personal.

[1483] There's like a lot of the guy, a lot of them were, had not done roast before, whereas like Natasha and I had both done roast and of course like Jeff Ross and stuff.

[1484] Yeah.

[1485] And I, of course, was laughing, but like, and I think all of us, I think when you do a roast, you spend a couple days in bed afterwards trying to like remember yourself self -worth.

[1486] But I was completely blindsided by I'm old jokes because.

[1487] It wasn't even the oldest on the dais.

[1488] I mean, and they were written by, I know the guys who wrote a lot of these jokes.

[1489] They were like 60 -year -olds.

[1490] And it, but it, it, and I, I defend everyone's right to say them with my life because I was fucking brutal.

[1491] I mean, that's what a roast is.

[1492] But the truth was I did feel hurt.

[1493] I mean, I, you know, I, I, I defend it completely.

[1494] I would, you know, so it's hard to express myself without sounding like a victim because, because I'm, I was a part of it and I was brutal to me. Yeah, yeah.

[1495] But I was just surprised.

[1496] I was prepared for, I'm hairy, I'm Jewish.

[1497] I'm a whore.

[1498] You fucks famous people.

[1499] Yeah.

[1500] And I wasn't prepared for that.

[1501] And it was like a new world, a new chapter for me. Oh my God.

[1502] I'm getting the B. Arthur jokes.

[1503] I'm, I'm 40 or however old I was.

[1504] Well, there's a bunch of weird ways that this job will force you to confront your age.

[1505] And as an actor, the thing that starts happening to me is like, I realize, oh, I'm getting first, I'll notice, oh, I'm getting cast as a husband now.

[1506] Oh, I guess I'm old enough that I would be married.

[1507] And then, oh, I'm getting cast that I'd have children now.

[1508] Oh, and now I'm sorry, I notice, oh, the children I'm getting cast that, they're older.

[1509] Yeah.

[1510] And like, the job forces you to acknowledge your actual station in life, weirdly.

[1511] And yet, like, that thing could, like, as you say, invite you into a new chapter, like, oh, God, I'm now here.

[1512] That's, uh, that's something.

[1513] to think about.

[1514] But you know, the thing with Rosts is like you, I think the people don't want to do it.

[1515] It's awesome.

[1516] Right.

[1517] It's not for me. I don't want to feel shitty about myself.

[1518] I take a million steps in a day to not feel shitty.

[1519] The voice inside my head's doing a good enough job to make me feel shitty.

[1520] I don't need help from anyone.

[1521] And then I also feel like there's this little element of like Roman Coliseum where it's like someone was smart enough to put.

[1522] us all together and then just sabotage each other for the collective amusement.

[1523] It's like someone's above all of it, like kind of just.

[1524] Also, the thing about a roast was always that it was a group of best friends.

[1525] Yes.

[1526] And it just is not that anymore.

[1527] And, you know, my friend Brian Moses created a show called Roast Battle that is actually putting comedians who aren't necessarily famous at all, but who are working comics who are our friends or exes or our dating or our best friends or and it's totally different and at the end of each one they hug yeah and you see when one slams the other the other one will like genuinely laugh and the jokes are so specific like your gay mom ellen right they know yes and there's something much more beautiful about it like these are people that love each other who share this craft and are brutal to each other, but you really see that there is no love lost.

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] And it's different.

[1530] It's kind of the way it's most of me. Well, I love being made fun of by Kristen.

[1531] Yeah, because it makes you feel known and it makes you feel loved.

[1532] I mean, I love being teased by people I know love me. Yes.

[1533] And Monica teases me a lot and I always enjoy that.

[1534] And I tease her a lot and she enjoys it a little bit less, but still enough.

[1535] Yeah, teasing.

[1536] It's hard for me. Well, because it is, right?

[1537] Yeah, it is.

[1538] Yeah.

[1539] It is.

[1540] Because the same thing, like, what you were saying about the age joke, like, you never know when something's going to feel personal.

[1541] Like, they probably, they very well could have thought, like, oh, ages, everyone ages, that's normal.

[1542] That's totally across the board.

[1543] That's nothing personal.

[1544] I feel very confident that none of the men that made those jokes have any ill. will towards me. No. Right.

[1545] No, but you just never know when something's going to do that.

[1546] Right.

[1547] Make you feel like, oh.

[1548] Here's what would trigger me in a big way.

[1549] If a stranger makes a joke about me, my assumption has to be everyone in the world thinks this about me. That's why it's funny.

[1550] Right.

[1551] This person doesn't even know me, but this thing is so obviously embarrassing about me that everyone's thinking it.

[1552] And now I got to go home with this like handbag of new fears that everyone thinks about me. I don't want that new handbag of fears.

[1553] It's actually the strangeness of it that makes it feel so scary.

[1554] Like, oh, that's what everyone's, because everyone laughs, so must have rang true.

[1555] I guess I'm all these things.

[1556] Right.

[1557] And I guess that's also why some people can get away with certain jokes and other people can't.

[1558] It's because a truth transcends.

[1559] And if it's that you're doing it with love is very different than if you're doing it with fear or hatred or any kind of actual aggression or negative feeling, you know.

[1560] But it's also in this kind of circles back to like never recognizing when you've entered a position of power or status over someone else, how it's kind of hard to be aware of that.

[1561] For years, it's a Kristen going, you have to understand when you're delivering your opinion, you're a six foot three white.

[1562] dude like it is just visually scarier you need to counteract that by being even more soft than i'm being dog yes like i'm going well no i'm speaking like everyone else and she's like yeah but you're speaking above them like everyone else so sorry for you you're gonna have to like come under that to make it equal and i'm more and more recognizing like i am a fucking super entitled tall white guy with blonde hair and I, me saying something mean isn't as pleasurable as watching George Carlin who was schlubby and balding say something attacking the power structure.

[1563] You know, like as much as I want to just be whatever comedian I want to be that day, I have a certain box that came with a ton of privilege and opportunities and then there's some things I can't do.

[1564] It's not my place.

[1565] That's why there are certainly people and maybe they fall into that aesthetic they're explaining who are stunned by that because they don't are stunned by the notion of that they may hurt someone or have hurt someone because they don't feel powerful.

[1566] And so, you know, when even abuse, and this isn't me having compassion for that, but just wanting to understand it, when people are abusive, it's because it's not because they feel powerful.

[1567] Right.

[1568] It's because they feel powerless.

[1569] Yeah.

[1570] And even if you are a person of power or abuse that power, a lot of times it's, it's not because you think, it's not because you feel powerful.

[1571] Yeah.

[1572] Well, it's the same with bullies.

[1573] Like as much as I want to hate bullies and round them up, let me tell you, they're getting their ass kicked by dad at home.

[1574] And so I can't expect people to have compassion for those people.

[1575] But, you know, I had a guy on my show.

[1576] Christian Picholini, who was a Nazi.

[1577] He was a neo -Nazi.

[1578] He read his book.

[1579] Yeah, I read his book.

[1580] He's incredible.

[1581] And he, from 14, until he was like one of the heads of a Nazi movement.

[1582] Yeah, that Northern Hammers or something.

[1583] And he said, I said, what advice if you're going to give us all advice?

[1584] And he said, find someone who does not deserve your compassion and give it to them because that's what happened to me. And I think about it all the time because I think if I met Christian Picholini before he changed, would I have compassion for him?

[1585] And, you know, I'm not judging myself yes or no. And I'm certainly not telling other people have compassion for all these like scumbags, hate monger, whatever.

[1586] But they got that way for a reason.

[1587] That reason is sad.

[1588] You know, they're grownups and they're responsible for what they do.

[1589] but I do think that change comes more from compassion than from, you know.

[1590] Meeting it with equal violence and anger.

[1591] Yeah, that's why on Twitter you just have screaming matches and people just hating.

[1592] And no one's going to change their mind.

[1593] You're not going to change anyone's mind.

[1594] I totally agree.

[1595] By being condescending to them and telling them they're stupid and here's why and this fact and this poll number.

[1596] And you might be totally right.

[1597] But it makes their porcupine needles go up.

[1598] And you can't take in, you can't be changed when you're in defensive mode, when you're protecting yourself.

[1599] I couldn't agree with you more.

[1600] And these things are always, they're either in one of two states.

[1601] Things are either in a de -escalation state or an escalation state.

[1602] That's just really the only two options.

[1603] So it's like you have to imagine, am I escalating this thing or am I de -escalating it?

[1604] And that Piccolini guy, is that how I say his last name?

[1605] Piccholini.

[1606] Pete Chilini.

[1607] I felt it weirdly was like a, I had a moral conundrum about reading that book.

[1608] I thought this guy has a great message ultimately because I read the book.

[1609] And then I was like, do I tweet about this book?

[1610] And I thought, I feel very weird about giving someone some kind of capital or money based on having been a shithead.

[1611] You know what I'm saying?

[1612] I was like, there's something about this, which is unique because if the guy was just, let's say someone wrote a book about I used to be a rapist and I raped all these people and now I'm not a rapist.

[1613] It would, it would feel weird to give that person a platform and stuff.

[1614] If he was called out before he changed, we would think of him very differently than if he, then how he came into relevance.

[1615] Relevance.

[1616] For having changed.

[1617] Yeah, yeah.

[1618] I mean, it is.

[1619] It's true.

[1620] to being changed on your own, not because the world has turned on you and you're losing work or something.

[1621] 100%.

[1622] And I ended up, like, loving the book and everything.

[1623] But I just remember going like, I just feel a little, there's a little, I need to think this through weirdly.

[1624] Here's the things.

[1625] I've done things that I'm very ashamed of in comedy even, just, you know, that looking back, it was so ignorant and whatever the intentions were.

[1626] But I also know I can't, especially in this world, erase it.

[1627] Right.

[1628] All I can do is be changed by it and spend the rest of my life making it right in any way that I can.

[1629] And I see that that's something I learned from Christian.

[1630] You know, like he spends his life trying to get people out of hate groups.

[1631] Yes.

[1632] And so, you know, it's not a punishment.

[1633] It's a choice that you want to make this right, this thing that you feel complicit in.

[1634] And I think that I'm very moved by someone who can be changed.

[1635] I was raised a bleeding heart liberal, and now I am one.

[1636] I don't know that if I was raised differently, I would have the strength to become something else.

[1637] I'd like to think that, but I, and that's, you know, I said it in the specials, like, that's how I see myself in people protesting at a, you know, out of sighted an abortion clinic.

[1638] This is how they've been raised.

[1639] This is everything they know to be true.

[1640] Yeah.

[1641] And they want you to feel that way, too, because they're passionate about it.

[1642] The thing, again, I'm more interested in trying to make Dax better than everyone else.

[1643] And there's so many opportunities right now.

[1644] And I'm kicking and screaming on some of them.

[1645] Like I have, I have provocative Me Too thoughts at times.

[1646] I have provocative.

[1647] I still think race is hysterical.

[1648] I still love those jokes.

[1649] You know, there's a ton of stuff that I'm having a hard time.

[1650] But I did have this a little mild breakthrough.

[1651] Monica and I were watching this documentary called White Right.

[1652] And this English -born, but Pakistani, ethnically woman comes and interviews all these white nationalists.

[1653] It's a great documentary.

[1654] It's on Netflix.

[1655] And what I found was I was so, it was so easy for me to see that these, many of them boys, young men that are in this movement, you have just never had a friend.

[1656] These were like the first people that were willing to be friends with them.

[1657] They go towards where the love is.

[1658] acceptance a sense of family and they were even calling her a friend like on such a short schedule like they had not known each other very long but they would be going like well you're my friend I don't want you to call yourself shitskin that was like she kept calling herself she'd read a tweet from them yeah that group and then she'd say it again and they were like don't say that yeah and so quickly yeah and the guy would be like well we're friends and I could see in his eyes like he genuinely like and I was like oh he wants a friend so bad and I just had this moment of kind of identity shattering where I was like oh my god this is the power of empathy that guy looks like me so I'm being empathetic in a way to him that I would never be watching an ISIS documentary whoa like if I was watching 10 ISIS dudes talk my just my level of empathy is way lower.

[1659] And that's just my reptilian brain has evolved to be empathetic towards people who I most relate to that look like me. And I start going like, oh, man, I'm really handcuffed by my limited empathy.

[1660] The way everyone's handcuffed by their limited empathy.

[1661] And that needs to be something we are taught to counter correct for like in a fucking science experiment.

[1662] Like we have a control variable.

[1663] Oh, just be warned.

[1664] You have limits to empathy.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] We base what we think on what we know, but we also base what we think on what we don't know.

[1667] And what we don't know is terrifying.

[1668] You know, the thought of the unknown going into something that isn't familiar as humans, as scary.

[1669] So what, what is brave is living through it and realizing it's, yeah, well, I didn't know and now I know.

[1670] Yeah.

[1671] I've lived through it.

[1672] And it wasn't, it was scary and I was okay.

[1673] Yeah.

[1674] And even before Monica and I became really friends, I would still have maintained like, no, accents are funny.

[1675] You're allowed to do any accent you want.

[1676] And knowing Monica, knowing what hearing people do that accent makes her feel like, I now, I don't do it.

[1677] As much as I loved doing that accent.

[1678] So you do it sometimes in the shower when no one can hear you.

[1679] Yeah, yeah.

[1680] And we found one single moment where we thought it was acceptable.

[1681] It's acceptable always.

[1682] No, but all that happened is I could still make the intellectual defense of it, but I've now had an emotional connection with the person where I go, however much pleasure I get out of doing that accent, however many people I make laugh, knowing how much it hurts a certain person, now that it's real to me, it's just been like, I don't need to do it.

[1683] If you, for instance, did an Indian accent because you have a, a bunch of Indian friends.

[1684] Yeah, yeah.

[1685] It's different than if you do an Indian accent because of the guy with it on the Simpsons.

[1686] A boo.

[1687] Because you've heard that and then that's what in 7 -Eleven.

[1688] People at 7 -Eleven are Indian and they talk like this.

[1689] Yeah.

[1690] It's very different than, you know, like if your three best friends are Indian and you, you know, are reflecting them, you know, I think I just remember the one time I thought it was worth doing was my brother worked at a place for a while where he answered a customer care line.

[1691] And people are so angry at the notion that they're talking to someone in India on customer care.

[1692] You know, there's a thing like, where are you?

[1693] People, so my brother to fuck with those people who are basically xenophobic, they would go, where are you right now?

[1694] And my brother would say, New York, New York.

[1695] And he would do an Indian accent and keep claiming to be in America just to piss them off, which I thought was weirdly full circle funny.

[1696] But at any rate, it just, yeah, it took me. It is full circle funny, but they're not, their racism is exactly as is.

[1697] But he's turning their own racism on them to punish them.

[1698] to make them suffer.

[1699] But they don't get off the phone, like, you know, being more open to...

[1700] No, no, certainly not.

[1701] No, it certainly probably made them more xenophobic and racist.

[1702] But it is.

[1703] But it's kind of a good bit just to fuck with them.

[1704] At any rate.

[1705] You're the best storyteller.

[1706] You think so?

[1707] I always said...

[1708] You've told the funniest stories I've ever heard.

[1709] Oh.

[1710] Yeah.

[1711] Well, thank you.

[1712] I remember when I started doing stand -up and I did it in front of you, I was particularly nervous.

[1713] I'm like, God, I really hope Sarah doesn't think.

[1714] Like, why is he fucking doing this?

[1715] Oh, my God, I would never.

[1716] You have a great way of telling a story.

[1717] Oh, my God.

[1718] Oh, thank you.

[1719] I'll never forget the one about Marlon Brando being taken on a tour of the set of...

[1720] Oh, of Dr. Moreau.

[1721] Iola, Dr. Moro.

[1722] Oh, my God.

[1723] Oh, look at this one.

[1724] Oh, he's a monster.

[1725] Look at...

[1726] He looks like a lion.

[1727] Oh, he's a lion.

[1728] Oh, he's a lion.

[1729] And it was a real actor, not in prosthetics or makeup.

[1730] Oh, boy.

[1731] And they had worked together before, and he kept trying to say it.

[1732] And then Marlon was like, oh, my God, he talks.

[1733] Oh, look, look, and he was touching his face instead.

[1734] It's so real.

[1735] Well, Sarah, I just, I love you.

[1736] And do you think, like, so you're doing your show.

[1737] I love you, America.

[1738] Well, here's my big announcement.

[1739] We got canceled.

[1740] Oh, I'm sorry.

[1741] We haven't said it out loud, yeah, other than to the people I work with who now need to find work.

[1742] I'm so sorry.

[1743] Did you enjoy doing it a lot?

[1744] There's nothing I've ever enjoyed more.

[1745] This is the first job in my life that I would wake up every morning before my alarm is a group I loved working with.

[1746] It felt like it mattered.

[1747] It mattered to me. And, you know, we own it so maybe someone will find a home.

[1748] home somewhere, but I'm, yeah, I'm actually super bummed about it.

[1749] I'm always, I've always been slightly relieved when other jobs get canceled and stuff.

[1750] There's always a part of me. But this one, I'm super bummed about.

[1751] Oh, I'm sorry.

[1752] What I was going to say is, what I liked about that show is I do feel like you and I, although you're, I think, much more political than I am.

[1753] You're involved.

[1754] But I do see in you something that I think we share, which is it's really, easy to get so cemented into this identity of left and right and it appears to me that you're always trying to remember at all times that they're a human way before they're a conservative or a liberal and you seem to have the same desire I do which is let's talk my goodness let's just chat for a minute and let's face to face everything's different it is and then just being reminded that 98 % of your day is identical to everyone else's like you wake up you got to get some coffee you're going to have to take a shit you might have to get kids ready you got to go drive to fucking some job you got to sit and travel like you look at the actual things that are happening in every person's day and we're so similar and yet we we make a mountain out of these associations you make so much more leeway with someone who has complete different politics than you there's no reason to talk about politics Talk about what you do, you know, like, oh, my God, you watch Walking Dead, me too.

[1755] I used to hate Carol.

[1756] Now she's my world, you know.

[1757] Yeah.

[1758] And, like, it's like that all you have to do is connect on some level and then your friends.

[1759] And then all the other stuff, you know, there's someone who says this woman, Mary Kay, I fucking never remember her name.

[1760] It starts out of Kay.

[1761] The makeup sales lady.

[1762] Mary Kay.

[1763] She says, and I know it because Mr. Rogers quoted her, but she said there isn't.

[1764] anyone you couldn't love once you've heard their story.

[1765] Yeah, I love that.

[1766] You know, well, we did it all up as a war.

[1767] It's just like, we may be totally different, but everybody loves their family, loves their friends, and has a embarrassing story involving shitting.

[1768] Yeah, yes.

[1769] Well, the one that I always kind of hold up, because I'll get going on like, let's all just first start with maybe the way we connect.

[1770] And then we can have different opinions.

[1771] And people will go, no, it's, you got to choose a side.

[1772] and I get, you know, mean tweets about that I'm not taking aside as much.

[1773] But I will just put up before you, you know, Anthony Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

[1774] Those two were best friends.

[1775] They went on vacations together.

[1776] They fucking went in a hot air balloon together.

[1777] Like, and you can't say either one of them wasn't the most devout warrior and soldier for their parties in their political ideology.

[1778] And their best, best friends.

[1779] If those two people can be best friends, we don't have to be hating one another because we have different opinions.

[1780] I see there's two versions of that I see.

[1781] One, I see the beauty of it and that the reason why there's so much separation and bullshit in our own government is that they don't hang out anymore.

[1782] There used to be time of the Democrats and the Republicans would go to parties.

[1783] They'd have dinner.

[1784] They'd play golf.

[1785] They'd talk about their children.

[1786] and it was so different.

[1787] They got shit done because of it.

[1788] Now they don't do that.

[1789] I see two sides to it because then also I went to a party and I saw Anthony Scaramucci and...

[1790] The mooch?

[1791] Avonati hanging out together.

[1792] Who's Avanotti?

[1793] The What's Your Face's lawyer?

[1794] Oh.

[1795] Oh, right, right.

[1796] The guy with the shaved head.

[1797] Right.

[1798] I go, you guys are friends?

[1799] And they're like, yeah, Italians stick together or whatever.

[1800] And I thought, oh, Jesus, this is fucking show business to them.

[1801] They're pitching a show together.

[1802] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1803] So there's, like, in some ways you go, we need them to hang out.

[1804] We need them to see themselves and each other because that's what we need.

[1805] And they represent us.

[1806] And it trickles down.

[1807] And then on another side, you go, like, it's fucking show business to them.

[1808] They don't even fucking care.

[1809] So I'm of like two minds.

[1810] It all just depends.

[1811] Well, but I do agree.

[1812] I was listening to this guy on Sam, he was making this great point that we've actually transitioned though both parties have transitioned into they are nominating the person they don't hate as opposed to nominating the person they love and that's an infection on both sides so to be a liberal at this point is to be defined by hating Trump and I don't think that's the way to define yourself I think the way to define yourself is by who you love what do you stand for yes what is the policy you love and you're fighting for not all your energies into the policy you hate and the person who represents that.

[1813] It just does it to me seem ultra productive.

[1814] Yes, I would say that Trump is living rent free in my mind.

[1815] Right.

[1816] Like to fight that.

[1817] Yeah.

[1818] Well, I really adore you and, you know, the times we've got to hang out, we've played Scrabble together.

[1819] Yes.

[1820] And you're quite a good Scrabble player, which I always respect in someone.

[1821] I imagine that, well, let me just ask you this really quick.

[1822] SNL probably was the most devastating thing that had happened to you at that point.

[1823] Sure.

[1824] I mean, besides, like, having to go to sleepaway camp as a bedwetter, I guess.

[1825] Right, right.

[1826] Most devastating.

[1827] But then in retro.

[1828] I was hung out a window by my ankles as a 13 -year -old.

[1829] Oh, you were?

[1830] A 17 -story window.

[1831] That was scary.

[1832] Oh, my goodness.

[1833] By several people.

[1834] So I would say that by one guy on acid.

[1835] Oh, wow.

[1836] Oh, yikes.

[1837] Yeah, I was visiting my sister at college.

[1838] And he was hazing you?

[1839] He wouldn't pull me in.

[1840] I was teeny, tiny.

[1841] I was 13, but very small.

[1842] And I went to visit him while my sister was in class, and he just, he must have been on drugs.

[1843] Sure.

[1844] And he held me out a 17 -story window.

[1845] And I remember thinking, this is how I'll die.

[1846] Oh, wow.

[1847] And he wouldn't pull me back in until I screamed enough for him, you know.

[1848] I was already screaming.

[1849] Aye, yeah, yay.

[1850] We're the worst That's no fun at all And in closing So I can't say that was the most devastating thing in my But yeah It was certainly professionally I remember thinking like Am I in show business?

[1851] Right But I was definitely in show business being on it But Odin Kirk kind of publicly Gave his two sense on why he thought that happened Which I think is really quite accurate Which is the thing that made you not great there is the very thing that makes you great everywhere, which is you are so specifically Sarah Silverman at all times and that that point of view is a commodity and has proven to be the commodity that it is.

[1852] And it's almost a huge blessing that that happened.

[1853] I'm just thinking in retrospect, these things that have been, in my own life, so hurtful, took so long to get over, were the best things that ever happened to me. Definitely.

[1854] And do you feel like as you get older, I feel like I now have enough evidence that I never know what is the best thing for me. And I now realize, or I have a faith that I will always look back on things and go, oh, that was supposed to happen exactly that way because now I'm here and I love being here.

[1855] Yeah.

[1856] Do you have that kind of comfort or?

[1857] I have learned in therapy to try to feel like, oh, what has happened and what is happening is for some reason essential.

[1858] Maybe I don't understand it now.

[1859] But that's kind of like what the great part.

[1860] part of religion is for people is like, well, this was meant to happen and this is supposed to happen.

[1861] And that seems real nice, you know, like, I love you, America getting canceled.

[1862] Like, I still don't feel like that was meant to be.

[1863] But then part of me is like, yeah, I'm sure, I guess it was.

[1864] Maybe it's supposed to be somewhere else.

[1865] Maybe it's supposed to not be anymore, but.

[1866] Right.

[1867] But I just hope you have the perspective.

[1868] You probably don't because you're inside of it.

[1869] But I, on the outside, go, oh, Sarah Silverman will always be fine.

[1870] You'll always be 100 % fine.

[1871] You'll do 19 different things before now and the end.

[1872] And they'll all have some significance and some things will lead you to this and that.

[1873] I do feel that way.

[1874] I've just never really panicked.

[1875] And I've never planned anything or it's been like I want to be here at a certain point.

[1876] It's never occurred to me. Nothing that's, I mean, that's one thing my therapist said too.

[1877] Like, have you been able to predict a single thing that's happened in your life?

[1878] And I was like, definitely not.

[1879] And he goes, yeah, so why are you worrying about it now?

[1880] We're looking through a pinhole of just what we know.

[1881] Yes.

[1882] I put you in a category with Amy Poehler, which is a lot of people, myself included, at times you get so navel focused that as you're going up the ladder, you're forgetting to throw your hand back and help people out.

[1883] Yeah.

[1884] And you've always been just the high watermark of you and I are both best friends with Steve Agee.

[1885] We love Steve Agee.

[1886] And you have a group of people that you, if you're working, they're working.

[1887] And I think that's the most admirable, wonderful thing that is easy to overlook as you're focused on what's next and the things you need personally.

[1888] Right.

[1889] To constantly be remembering, no, no, no, let's bring everyone I can along for the ride.

[1890] I feel like you've done that really admirably.

[1891] Thanks.

[1892] Well, you know, friends are.

[1893] They don't grow on trees.

[1894] No, they don't.

[1895] You find a few good ones.

[1896] You got to keep them around.

[1897] I mean, I think a lot of my friends have outgrown me career -wise, and that's a good thing.

[1898] That's a, you know, maybe not for me, but I'm thrilled for it.

[1899] I love it.

[1900] All right.

[1901] Well, I love you.

[1902] Thank you so much for coming and making time.

[1903] Can I sleep over?

[1904] Yes.

[1905] Only have you promised to pee the bed.

[1906] I promise.

[1907] Because I want to be your first positive experience with it.

[1908] Like when you yell from your bedroom, I peed the bed.

[1909] I'm going to come in with symbols celebrating.

[1910] And I'm going to have confetti.

[1911] poppers.

[1912] Oh, my gosh.

[1913] And then I'm going to give you $500 cash.

[1914] Oh, my God.

[1915] And then Kristen's going to throw a cake in my face for your amusement to celebrate.

[1916] And we're going to put a whole new spin on this for you.

[1917] Wow.

[1918] Yeah.

[1919] I think that we'll have a positive outcome.

[1920] There's only one way for us to find out.

[1921] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1922] Oh, boy.

[1923] Let's start out this fact check by just saying that when we flew back from Chicago, we were on the airplane with Common.

[1924] Mm -hmm.

[1925] We were.

[1926] We were.

[1927] He was a couple rows ahead of us.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] And when we got off the plane in L .A., Common took the time to remove two or three bags from the overhead for this woman who was sitting next to him.

[1930] And Rob said, you don't see that often.

[1931] That's very uncommon.

[1932] Yeah.

[1933] You loved it.

[1934] I loved it.

[1935] Yeah.

[1936] I thought it was a real.

[1937] It was a good joke.

[1938] Because it happened immediately while it was happening.

[1939] You know, that was the kind of thing I would think of maybe walking down the run, you know, the little fucking doohickey you walk down.

[1940] The gangway.

[1941] Sure.

[1942] I might have thought, oh, I wish I would have said that's uncommon to see.

[1943] But he was right, it was right on the heels.

[1944] It might have even still been happening.

[1945] Maybe.

[1946] Yeah.

[1947] I was reminded of it because Rob just got me with a joke coming into this.

[1948] Yeah.

[1949] Welcome to the fact check.

[1950] Yeah.

[1951] Sarah.

[1952] Sarah.

[1953] She's special.

[1954] And when you feel you can't go on, you come and squeeze me. It's you.

[1955] What did Sarah say?

[1956] She didn't shit the Brooke Lennon's?

[1957] No. great.

[1958] Paul Bloom.

[1959] You said Paul Bloom said empathy is not useful.

[1960] I don't know if he said that so explicitly, but he does say he has like a case sort of against empathy and for rational compassion, which he says are different.

[1961] I might have paraphrase a bit too much.

[1962] You may have.

[1963] You may have.

[1964] You may not.

[1965] He might say, sure.

[1966] Well, he just said it's not, it's not helpful to be truly empathetic by the definition of empathy in a situation which calls for you to act because you're going to imagine yourself in their shoes and you're going to get yourself hysterical or irrational.

[1967] Yeah.

[1968] Yeah, and that there's a difference between empathy and compassion for people because a lot of sociopaths have a lot of empathy.

[1969] They score very high on these empathy tests.

[1970] Yes, and that's how they're able to manipulate people.

[1971] They know what the other person wants to hear.

[1972] Yeah.

[1973] Yeah, it is.

[1974] It's counterintuitive to think that sociopaths are highly empathetic.

[1975] I know.

[1976] Yeah, it really puts that word to the test.

[1977] It just kind of uses a blanket positive.

[1978] Yeah, I know.

[1979] Yeah, and it's not necessarily.

[1980] You said drowning.

[1981] Okay.

[1982] And Sarah called you out, but I just wanted to say that was a new word.

[1983] Well, it was just a new word I didn't know that you said a little.

[1984] I hope Wabiwob is compiling a list we can put on the website.

[1985] We need a new thing for him to start jotting down Because Wobbywob is supposed to He's okay at this Now I just gave him a lot of love for his uncommon joke But I'm going to be a little critical and say He's pretty good at writing down Every time we say a podcast Or a documentary or a book that we like He's supposed to be writing that down Vigilantly Maticulously and then posting it on the website So people can go afterwards You don't have to swerve into another lane Trying to rewind Oh, yeah, don't do that.

[1986] Don't do that.

[1987] Well, Wabi Wob, white this stuff down.

[1988] White.

[1989] But I do think that we should add to Wabi Wob's list, maybe these words.

[1990] Okay, let's go over them.

[1991] Like a glossary.

[1992] Attic.

[1993] Addict.

[1994] Up in the attic?

[1995] Yes.

[1996] Vietnamese attic, across.

[1997] Roof.

[1998] But that just, that's not.

[1999] Yeah, I'm not saying it wrong.

[2000] You're not saying it wrong.

[2001] I'm just saying it wrong.

[2002] I'm just saying it weird.

[2003] Sauna, it turns out I say correctly.

[2004] Yeah, we can't add that to the list.

[2005] We can't.

[2006] No. That's going to be on the list of all the words you fucking people say wrong.

[2007] Yeah, that's still, that list of one.

[2008] Oh, embarrassing.

[2009] No, all the listeners, they're saying sauna.

[2010] But the list is one word.

[2011] Yeah, that I got right.

[2012] Sauna.

[2013] Drounding.

[2014] There's two other words I say correctly that no one says correctly.

[2015] What?

[2016] Orangatan and Neanderthal.

[2017] That's both the correct ways to say those words.

[2018] It reminds me of when you said, we in biology.

[2019] I did not ever say we in biology.

[2020] We in the sciences.

[2021] I never said that.

[2022] You know, Neanderthal and orangutan are words all never...

[2023] You'll choose to say them incorrectly.

[2024] I have words like that.

[2025] Yeah.

[2026] I'm like, I know what the right way to say it is, but I think it's gross.

[2027] Me too.

[2028] And I feel that way about saying certain areas of the country, like, um, Missouri is often pronounced a certain way.

[2029] Yeah.

[2030] I won't do that either.

[2031] Okay.

[2032] Even though I know that's actually the...

[2033] Gillian Flynn.

[2034] I know.

[2035] She's allowed to.

[2036] She's from there.

[2037] Yeah, Missouri.

[2038] I think if you're from there, you are on the right.

[2039] Yeah.

[2040] Even if I was from there, I probably wouldn't...

[2041] In Georgia, did you guys say Oregon or Oregon?

[2042] Oregon.

[2043] Oregon.

[2044] Isn't that interesting?

[2045] In Michigan, every single person in Michigan says Oregon.

[2046] The Oregon Trail.

[2047] Not the Oregon Trail, the Oregon Trail.

[2048] Oh, that's weird, yeah.

[2049] Yeah, it wasn't until my family moved to Oregon that I was forced to learn to say it correctly.

[2050] So is Oregon right?

[2051] Yeah, because that's how Oregonians say it.

[2052] Oh, right.

[2053] Yeah.

[2054] They get to decide.

[2055] But they're called Oregonians or Oregonians?

[2056] Organisms.

[2057] They're called organisms.

[2058] And I told you about my Nokia thing, right?

[2059] Nokia.

[2060] Yeah, I used to say Nokia, right?

[2061] I think it's Nokia.

[2062] Oh, Jesus, now I'm lost, but I once was hired 15 years ago to go to the Sugar Bowl and, like, be a part of some paid thing from Nokia or Nokia.

[2063] And I had to say it a bunch of times.

[2064] And I spent hours in my hotel room saying it, yes, because whatever it was, it was the hour.

[2065] opposite of whatever.

[2066] I've always said.

[2067] And I didn't want to be like the mouthpiece for this company, which is also Swedish.

[2068] It is?

[2069] Yeah.

[2070] Oh, wow.

[2071] And so I had to, I, I practice more than I've practiced monologues for movies saying Nokia.

[2072] Wow.

[2073] Or Nokia.

[2074] Or Nokia.

[2075] But I think it's Nokia.

[2076] I say no. Doesn't that sound Japanese?

[2077] Yeah, I would have totally said Japanese.

[2078] Yeah.

[2079] Wow.

[2080] That's, yeah, that's interesting.

[2081] Maybe the Swedes bought it from the, I don't know.

[2082] I don't I don't want to get too in the weeds on it.

[2083] So you said Imperial Dragons is a KKK name.

[2084] And I started looking into some KKK titles, yes.

[2085] Positions.

[2086] Positions, correct.

[2087] And so I'm going to go through some, okay?

[2088] Right.

[2089] These are higher level titles.

[2090] Okay.

[2091] If Grand Wizard.

[2092] I feel like that's the most.

[2093] known yeah that's the highest oh it is um i feel like an imperial dragon should be higher than a grand wizard no i'm just because it's got the name dragon in it yeah imperial dragons dragons are less oh yeah counterintuitive wizards are higher than dragons i just have to say how silly the whole thing sounds it literally sounds like 10 year olds playing dungeons and dragons it does or harry potter yeah like it does grand wizard grand scribe Grand Dragon, Great Titan.

[2094] Great Grandpa.

[2095] Grand Giant.

[2096] Is it really grand giant?

[2097] Mm -hmm.

[2098] This is so silly.

[2099] And there's goblins.

[2100] Are there real?

[2101] No, there's not.

[2102] Oh, my God.

[2103] You guys in the KKK, you've got to redo your title system.

[2104] I mean, this is making me a little nervous.

[2105] I don't know why.

[2106] Why?

[2107] We're making fun of the KKK.

[2108] No, I mean, are they going to come get me or something?

[2109] Well, let me just say this.

[2110] This is going to get me in way more trouble than what you're.

[2111] dancing around is we've now watched several documentaries about the KKK, you and I. Now, when I watch documentaries about the Hells Angels, you do not want to fuck with them.

[2112] Yeah.

[2113] And the toughest person in any Hells Angels chapter is called the Sergeant of Arms, that they give that title to the toughest guy.

[2114] Okay.

[2115] I've seen a dozen or so Hell's Angels, Sergeant Arms.

[2116] I am terrified.

[2117] I would not want to say a single disparaging thing about them because there's, but I have now watched all these KKK.

[2118] all look like out of shape fucking heavy smoker carb pounding every single one of them we've watched them together have you seen one guy they were like oh that's a tough customer you're like no that guy looks like he would fucking die in a lawn chair just like hanging but listen but i don't my fear is not antagonizing a hate group well yes but i'm saying my fear is not relegated to people who look tough.

[2119] I know that the people who look weak can do a lot of damage.

[2120] I kind of like though challenging any member of the clan to a fist fight.

[2121] I don't want to get in a gun duel with anyone.

[2122] They'd love to get in a fight with me. Well you, you, but you have not challenged them to a fight.

[2123] I am the one that's saying they all look like out of shape weaklings.

[2124] They already hate me. Although they don't.

[2125] That's the sad thing we're learning about the clan is that they would be friends with you in two seconds.

[2126] That's what's so complex about all this, is they would be friends with you.

[2127] They were friends with that woman.

[2128] I know.

[2129] It's all so weird.

[2130] It is.

[2131] Anywho, though, I do stand by my assessment of their general fitness.

[2132] I'll just leave it at that.

[2133] Okay.

[2134] Speaking of, I watched Black Klansman over the break because it was on Obama's list of top movies for the year.

[2135] Uh -huh.

[2136] And so I watched it with my family And we liked it very much Great Oh, okay She said that she lost her virginity when she was 19 And you said that seemed late Mm -hmm And you just want to be careful about that Okay Tell me why Well I don't want people to listen Young people And who maybe haven't had sex And think Oh no with them?

[2137] No, something's wrong.

[2138] I should have by now or that it's late if you get to a certain point.

[2139] Like, ever, anything's fine.

[2140] Yeah.

[2141] Well, there's two elements that I'll say that compound that.

[2142] One is just my experience.

[2143] So anything I'm saying, of course, relates to how it was in my town, basically.

[2144] And people generally had sex by the time they were 18.

[2145] And so that's one issue.

[2146] And that's probably regional.

[2147] I'm sure there's different ages of sexual activity that are common in different areas.

[2148] It just seemed to be pretty young where I'm from.

[2149] But second to this, and this kind of circles back to a problem I think I haven't figured out how to address yet, which is because her comedic material has been often very sexual, I think of her as someone who's very sexual or very uninhibited, you know, doesn't think there's a bunch of moral trappings surrounding the pleasurable activity of coitus.

[2150] So I'm making these assumptions based largely on her comedy, which probably is not smart.

[2151] So just based on her comedy, I think, oh, I would have thought she got sexually curious at 16.

[2152] Early.

[2153] Ah, I see.

[2154] Yeah, so it was not like, it wasn't a blanket statement to all people like that 19's late, but for her, I felt shocked, by it because she's so open about being sexual.

[2155] Yeah.

[2156] I figured that.

[2157] I just wanted to clarify for our listeners.

[2158] That they should wait as long as they want to.

[2159] No, they can do whatever they want.

[2160] Yeah, totally.

[2161] And that it's all fine.

[2162] And that's all fine.

[2163] And also fuck when you're ready because it's fun.

[2164] Mm -hmm.

[2165] You know?

[2166] Yeah.

[2167] There's also that.

[2168] Okay.

[2169] Is bed wedding hereditary?

[2170] Mm. The majority of bed wedding is inherited.

[2171] For three out of four kids, either a parent or a first -degree.

[2172] great relative also wet the bed in childhood and some scientists have even located some of the specific genes that led to delayed nighttime bladder control oh wow yeah so i thought was cool she said her dad did that should be on the 23 ame kit whether you're a bedwet or they should add that prone to bed wedding yeah yeah we could also boy we could really do some synergy right now if we could get 23 and me to add it to their kit and then And they get Brooke Lennon to do a P -resistant five -star quality sheet.

[2173] And.

[2174] And advertised to those people who were.

[2175] But also and me -undies.

[2176] Oh, and me -undies could have a little maxi -pad built -in diaper.

[2177] Yeah, like a reusable maxi -pad.

[2178] Yeah.

[2179] That would be great.

[2180] Yeah.

[2181] I suppose a lot of our sponsors could hop on this.

[2182] Pacifica could get like you have a little seat cover.

[2183] you could order your Pacifica with a little P -resistant seat cover.

[2184] Right.

[2185] If you're night driving.

[2186] If you're driving in your sleep.

[2187] Oh, wow, yeah.

[2188] We need to call a meeting of all sponsors and hit them with our new multi -prong approach.

[2189] Yeah.

[2190] It's a community of bedwetters.

[2191] We talk a little bit about OCD and Control.

[2192] And there's a book called Overcoming Obsessive Thoughts.

[2193] And it says anxiety and worry is a prominent feature of us.

[2194] OCD and the compulsions are behavioral attempts to manage or control the anxiety and distressing thoughts.

[2195] Yeah, but you mentioned something about asthma, potentially being psychosomatic in a way to control their environment.

[2196] And I didn't find anything on that, but it must be somewhere.

[2197] Well, and what's so weird is I think, I don't know if I said it in the interview, but I'm getting that all from, there was an entire chapter in the Teddy Roosevelt biography, I did say that.

[2198] Dedicated to the conclusion that asthma is psychosomatic.

[2199] So I read like a whole chapter.

[2200] Now this, mind you this book, the Teddy Roosevelt book, I'm pretty sure it was a McCullough book.

[2201] It was written 30 years ago.

[2202] So maybe it's even changed since then.

[2203] But the way it was written seemed like it was completely conclusive that it was psychosomatic, which I had asthma as a kid.

[2204] And again, you don't know you're doing it.

[2205] Right, right.

[2206] But it kind of made sense to me. Like one of the gals in this chapter that was talking about asthma was she, roses gave her an asthma attack.

[2207] And they brought roses into her hospital room and she had an asthma attack.

[2208] But the roses were fake.

[2209] Oh, wow.

[2210] They were silk roses.

[2211] That was one of the examples they gave.

[2212] I didn't get chills, but I feel like I could have gotten chills just that.

[2213] I could have.

[2214] What's a pre -chill state that you got in?

[2215] too.

[2216] I just felt like, oh, wow, big reveal.

[2217] Well, yeah, it kind of felt like the moment in the courtroom where they, like, show a video of the person, right?

[2218] Yeah, or in the sixth sense when you find out that he's dead.

[2219] He's died.

[2220] He's actually dead.

[2221] Okay, she said that she's pretty tall.

[2222] And she is.

[2223] She's five, seven.

[2224] That's pretty tall for a lady, I think.

[2225] Yeah.

[2226] Oh, Christian Picholini was the head of which Nazi group.

[2227] You said Northern Hammers, and it was, first he was recruited to join Chicago area skinheads, Cash, and he became the group's leader at age 16, and then he facilitated a merger between Cash and the Hammer Skins.

[2228] The Hammer Skins.

[2229] So then it was both together.

[2230] Okay.

[2231] Yeah.

[2232] Oh.

[2233] Yeah.

[2234] We're giving race groups a lot of airtime today.

[2235] We are.

[2236] Not race groups.

[2237] Racist groups.

[2238] Anti -race groups, I would say.

[2239] Although white is a race.

[2240] I mean, there's no such thing as race, but if you concede to the concept of race.

[2241] You're right.

[2242] Yeah, you're right.

[2243] Yeah.

[2244] Caucasoid.

[2245] Honky.

[2246] Cracker.

[2247] Whitey.

[2248] The man. The man. Well, that's what black folks in the 70s called whitey, the man. I thought they called it.

[2249] I thought that was like, yeah, I guess it is white.

[2250] Yeah.

[2251] Like society.

[2252] Yeah.

[2253] Honky Cracker, ass cracker.

[2254] Who said there isn't anyone you couldn't love once you've heard their story?

[2255] Her name's Mary Lou Retton.

[2256] No, I love Mary Lou Retton.

[2257] Of course you do.

[2258] Mary Lou Kownacki.

[2259] K -O -W -N -A -C -I.

[2260] A lot of consonants in that one.

[2261] Lots.

[2262] Made popular by Mr. Rogers, of course.

[2263] Oh.

[2264] That's a stamp of approval.

[2265] Yeah.

[2266] Another race thing.

[2267] We're kind of talking about, like, being attracted to your oppressor.

[2268] Oh, uh -huh.

[2269] And you said something that we blew over, but I knew what you were trying to say.

[2270] Okay.

[2271] You said that girls in West Bloomfield liked you.

[2272] Well, Jewish girls.

[2273] Jewish girls in West Bloomfield.

[2274] liked you and maybe it was because you looked really Aryan and I think you were trying to say like there was some sort of like pathology about you and like Hitler and Nazis, right?

[2275] Yeah.

[2276] Yeah.

[2277] Can I say that?

[2278] I don't know.

[2279] I mean, I said it.

[2280] Well, you didn't say it.

[2281] Oh, I didn't say it got like you kind of were trying to and you were about to.

[2282] And getting scared or and scared.

[2283] I could tell you were wanting to but then you didn't because she kind of took it a little bit of a different way.

[2284] and then you were trying to sort of circle back and then you let it go.

[2285] But I know that that's, I knew that you meant that.

[2286] Yeah, I just had wondered, I guess, you know, and this probably stems from my own insecurities more than anything else because I couldn't comprehend that they just liked me, right?

[2287] There's no way that they just liked me. Yeah.

[2288] But again, it was disproportionate.

[2289] It was disproportionate.

[2290] Well.

[2291] More of them liked me than honky cracker, devil -ass.

[2292] well what Sarah said I think and what I do think is true is I think it's just a forbidden it's an exotic exotic yeah yeah exotic yeah exotic also really weird to think of myself as exotic I know yeah yeah like if if if if milk needed to be personified it could just be me you know no I wouldn't say that I would not say that okay all right bad bad analogy Strike one.

[2293] No, because you're not...

[2294] Bland?

[2295] Yeah.

[2296] Well, this gets into a whole thing about the soul spectrum that Joy and I created.

[2297] Oh.

[2298] Yeah, and it transcends skin color.

[2299] Yeah, and very self -serving.

[2300] Obviously.

[2301] Spectral analysis I came up with because, of course, I want to put myself high on the soul spectrum.

[2302] Uh -huh, sure.

[2303] But we did conclude that Bill Murray was like a 10 on.

[2304] the soul spectrum.

[2305] Like Samuel Jackson and Bill Murray are tied on the soul spectrum, even though one's white and one's black.

[2306] And I need a little more info.

[2307] Like, it's very nebulous.

[2308] Like, for some reason she and I agree on every name.

[2309] Like any name we would come up with.

[2310] Like Tom Cruise, she and I would put him at like a one on the soul spectrum, right?

[2311] Is it one to ten?

[2312] Yeah, one to ten.

[2313] And then like Bill Murray, we were both like fucking ten.

[2314] Sam Jackson, ten.

[2315] Jimi Hendricks 10 Bill Murray 10 Oh Bill Murray is a 10 on the soul spectrum Really?

[2316] Yeah Okay where am I Where are you first?

[2317] Where were you?

[2318] I'm like an 8 on the soul spectrum Okay Enjoy approved She did she signed off on that Okay She thinks I'm high on the soul spectrum And she's like a 9 on the soul spectrum Okay Do you accept that?

[2319] Yeah I would say she would probably be a 10 Well, she's not at 10 Because we got a reserve 10 for like Sam Jackson and Bill Murray So like let me think of a female that is I'm having a hard time Well, Rita Franklin's a 10 on the soul spectrum Okay Right?

[2320] Sure Yeah I'm gonna think of a white woman that is Maybe I'm not an 8 But I don't know She and I felt like I was an 8 And maybe I'm miss remembering We should probably fact check from her what I was But I was high okay for a white for a cocazoid is it like it's like it's like it's like rhythm you know oh yeah there's like a rhythm and a looseness and a comfort in your own skin and a oh does that start making sense a little bit a little bit when you look at bill murray you're just like god that guy is just like he's liquid in his own skin he's just smooth and confident in like his own thing and yeah deep and you know Yeah, there's a looseness to the originality that is very soulful.

[2321] So did you guys do it for the people on set?

[2322] Did you give numbers?

[2323] Yes, yes, absolutely.

[2324] Of course.

[2325] No, no, no, no, no. I can't possibly give people's.

[2326] Is it negative if you're not?

[2327] I don't know.

[2328] I would imagine people would want to be high on the soul spectrum.

[2329] What am I?

[2330] You can do that.

[2331] You can do it on here and don't lie.

[2332] And we can ask Joy, what she thinks.

[2333] Yeah, we can ask Joy.

[2334] He doesn't know me as well as you do, but...

[2335] Right.

[2336] I would probably give you a five on the soul spectrum.

[2337] You're right.

[2338] You're right.

[2339] It's negative, yeah.

[2340] Yeah, it feels negative.

[2341] Yeah.

[2342] But like, let me tell you something.

[2343] This is by your own admission.

[2344] You were an assimilator.

[2345] You were a cheerleader.

[2346] Like being a snowboarder puts you high on the soul spectrum.

[2347] Because it's like you're bucking the convention.

[2348] You're finding your own wave to ride.

[2349] It's not completely popular or normal.

[2350] It's almost paralleling now that I think about it, my definition of the punk rock spectrum.

[2351] People who are doing that are doing the exact same thing that people who are on the Chilling Squad are doing.

[2352] They're finding the group that makes them feel good.

[2353] Sure.

[2354] And is giving them approval.

[2355] One is not different than the other.

[2356] I'm sorry.

[2357] Sorry, this is not.

[2358] I know you want it to be, but it's not.

[2359] Well, let me ask you this.

[2360] There's some things I don't know about you, which is interesting because I've known you for a while now.

[2361] But I don't know if you dance when there's music played.

[2362] Like, you know me, I can't not dance when music's played, right?

[2363] At the house, second music comes on, I am dancing.

[2364] Uh -huh.

[2365] And I just don't, I don't know that about you.

[2366] That would inch you up or down on the soul spectrum.

[2367] Hmm.

[2368] What did you want to be on the soul spectrum?

[2369] I don't know.

[2370] I just...

[2371] You just don't like the number I gave you.

[2372] No, I don't.

[2373] And I don't think you know me. How often do you dance?

[2374] Around you never.

[2375] Why not?

[2376] Maybe you make me self -conscious.

[2377] I make you self -conscious.

[2378] No, you don't.

[2379] Maybe I feel self -conscious.

[2380] Well, like Bill Murray would dance around...

[2381] If Bill Murray was in the mood to dance, he would dance.

[2382] Right?

[2383] And so would Sam Jackson.

[2384] Mm -hmm.

[2385] That's true.

[2386] Tom Cruise would not.

[2387] He probably does.

[2388] I don't even know this about Tom Cruise.

[2389] Did you hear how definitive I was?

[2390] I know.

[2391] I don't get sued by Tom Cruise.

[2392] Yeah, I don't know whether Tom Cruise would dance or not.

[2393] I don't feel like he would.

[2394] Well, I kind of feel like he would, actually.

[2395] The Soul Spectrum is not the only spectrum to be on.

[2396] Tom Cruise, of what a guy.

[2397] This son of a bitch is such a good actor.

[2398] The movies he's in is so, they're so hard.

[2399] hard to be good in.

[2400] Almost all the lines are cheesy exposition.

[2401] They're like a threat to somebody.

[2402] They're him expressing his anger.

[2403] They're very hard.

[2404] I watch those movies.

[2405] What are those movies called, Monica?

[2406] Action movies?

[2407] No, the series, Mission Impossible.

[2408] And I love it.

[2409] He runs.

[2410] This man runs at one point in the most recent movie for upwards of six minutes straight, just sprinting.

[2411] He sprints, no, he sprints in every movie, but he sprints in the most recent Mission Impossible for, I swear, six minutes straight.

[2412] Wow.

[2413] Almost no actor in the world could you film running for six minutes and still be interested after one minute.

[2414] If you watched me run for a minute, you'd want to fast forward.

[2415] So there's something that Tom Cruise has that I don't have.

[2416] And he has some spectrum that he's a 10 on, that I'm a one on.

[2417] So it's just, it's okay, you know, that he isn't pegging that specific spectrum.

[2418] Yeah.

[2419] Okay.

[2420] Okay.

[2421] That's true.

[2422] Okay, that's all.

[2423] That was all the facts?

[2424] Yeah.

[2425] We can't end on this.

[2426] No, you're very upset about the five.

[2427] Well, I'm not upset.

[2428] You're pretty upset.

[2429] No, I'm not.

[2430] Okay, now back to when I'm not around.

[2431] You do, do some dancing?

[2432] Yeah.

[2433] You do.

[2434] How much dancing?

[2435] I don't know.

[2436] Do you dance when you're in your car?

[2437] No. You don't.

[2438] I sing when I'm in my car.

[2439] You sing when you're in your car?

[2440] Yeah.

[2441] Okay.

[2442] So you're high on the singing spectrum.

[2443] you're high on the singing spectrum but maybe not so high on no i'm not high on a singing spectrum because i won't sing in front of you although i have heard you sing in the back seat right and it's always great in fact when i hear you sing my first instinct is to be happy because i want to hear you sing but then it transitions immediately into anger because here you have this great voice and i could be hearing it all the time and you're denying all of us sit and it's selfish and it's greedy and it's crude wow and rude well i guess i'm also a i guess i'm a 10 on the selfish spectrum on the rude spectrum i guess so i mean yeah well i guess there's one more thing i could say um so our friend who was talking about wanting to date someone funny and you were saying that's about ego well hold on i didn't say is it about ego i said just be certain Okay.

[2444] That it's not about ego.

[2445] Okay.

[2446] Like, it's one thing if, yeah, you want to be surrounded by someone funny, that's fine.

[2447] Okay.

[2448] But if, if, in fact, you really just want to be around someone funny so that you have the approval of someone you admire, then maybe that's not a great motivation.

[2449] Yeah.

[2450] Okay.

[2451] Yeah.

[2452] I just want to be clear, like, it doesn't always mean it's your ego.

[2453] No. It can be that funny people are fun to be around.

[2454] Just pure enjoyment.

[2455] Yes.

[2456] 100%.

[2457] I don't know.

[2458] I think it's just.

[2459] worth it's just interesting to analyze why you're attracted to someone to just to decide if it is just genuine enjoyment or if it is ego fulfillment right it could be both because look it's the same thing happens for attractiveness like well sure you want to be with someone attractive because you want to be attracted to them yep but yeah there's a whole other layer of it is that you want to be with someone attractive so people think you're a catch yep So it's just important to know whether you're attracted to them or whether you're attracted to the notion that you're with someone attracted.

[2460] Yeah, that's true.

[2461] Yeah.

[2462] Because you can be super hot for somebody who's not conventionally gorgeous, like isn't going to be on the cover of a magazine for their beauty.

[2463] And some people would keep, that would keep them from dating that person because their ego wants to be with someone that should be on a magazine cover, even if they think that person's sexy as hell.

[2464] Yeah.

[2465] I think that happens.

[2466] Yeah, yeah.

[2467] I think it happens too.

[2468] Every day.

[2469] Every minute.

[2470] Even of these grand goblins.

[2471] Oh, man, yeah.

[2472] I don't know if the goblins are grand.

[2473] Oh, they're not.

[2474] They might just be regular goblins.

[2475] Small goblins.

[2476] Associate goblin.

[2477] All right, I love you.

[2478] I love you, too.

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