Rick Rubin (record producer)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] Experts on expert.

[2] I'm Dan Rather, I'm joined by Monaster Mouse.

[3] Hi.

[4] Hello.

[5] How are you doing?

[6] I'm doing good.

[7] It's sunny.

[8] And you were sun worshiping down in Hawaii, so you have a savage base.

[9] I do.

[10] You do.

[11] What's that mean?

[12] Savage base tan.

[13] Oh, cool.

[14] Yeah, you got to work on your savage base.

[15] Oh, wow.

[16] Yeah, summer's coming.

[17] I don't know about that because I'm brown.

[18] You never needed to get a base.

[19] Real white people like me. You got to get that base.

[20] before you can go raw dog out in the sun.

[21] If you just step out there, don't build to it, you're going to get burnt to a crisp.

[22] Okay.

[23] But even as a honky, a caucasoid, I can get a nice enough base that I'm, look, obviously I wear sunblock now, I'm an adult.

[24] You have to.

[25] And the times have changed.

[26] But in Michigan, in the 80s and 90s, there are no fucking sunblock.

[27] We never wore sunblock.

[28] Sure.

[29] So all you could do is get that savage base and then let it rip.

[30] Oh, my God.

[31] Yep.

[32] Cool.

[33] My dad was infamous for the savage base because he was a bald man who goes.

[34] golfed a lot.

[35] And he had to build up that dome base.

[36] Oh.

[37] So he wouldn't get burnt.

[38] So what would he do?

[39] Like go outside for six minutes every day?

[40] I can't imagine it was very methodical.

[41] I think he just got really burnt the first golf day and then it settled into a savage base.

[42] Yeah, turned into a savage base.

[43] Yes.

[44] Okay.

[45] Today's guest is Rick Rubin.

[46] Who is, and I give some quotes.

[47] I mean, you got Dr. Dr. Dr. Gray saying he's the greatest producer ever live.

[48] I mean, he is a nine -time Grammy Award -winning producer.

[49] and record executive.

[50] He's worked with everybody.

[51] It's one of the most impressive.

[52] I feel like it's him and Jimmy Iveen that are like the names that you would know if you don't know anything about the industry.

[53] Yeah, yeah.

[54] They stand apart.

[55] Yeah.

[56] Or even, I might call him a Quincy Jones.

[57] Anyways, he has got a book out right now called The Creative Act, A Way of Being, which is fantastic.

[58] It's how to stay inspired and be creative.

[59] and it's a really cool look at being creative.

[60] And Ding Dang Goose, we had a guest on Sense we interviewed Rick, who had read this book.

[61] It came up.

[62] Do you remember?

[63] Oh.

[64] Yeah.

[65] Like I guess I had read it and loved it independently of our...

[66] I forgot about that.

[67] Yes.

[68] So please check out the creative act, a way of being, and enjoy Rick Rubin.

[69] But before we go, we have a new month upon us.

[70] That's right.

[71] Which means new prompts for Armchair Anonymous, and they are as follow.

[72] Please remember, go to www.

[73] armchairexpertpod .com to submit your stories.

[74] We want to hear crazy TSA story, a crazy moviegoing experience, an emergency public evacuation, and craziest one -night stand.

[75] So TSA, movie -going experience, emergency public evacuation, and the craziest one -night stand.

[76] Please submit those, and we look forward to talking to you and hearing these juicy stories.

[77] Yes.

[78] Hit us with those, and we will talk to you.

[79] Please enjoy Rick Rubin.

[80] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[81] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[82] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[83] He's an armchair expert.

[84] How long have you been doing this?

[85] Five years on Valentine's Day.

[86] Yeah.

[87] Can you turn me down a touch?

[88] Or just not me, not my voice, but the overall volume.

[89] His headset volume.

[90] Yeah.

[91] We got all pro today.

[92] Yeah, once in a while we get somebody who's...

[93] Knows what they're doing.

[94] This is their occupation, and it's always funny to hear it.

[95] I just don't like listening to loud stuff right against my ears.

[96] That's kind of counterintuitive.

[97] I have to imagine in the studio it's pretty loud, no?

[98] It depends on the music.

[99] I don't hear myself at all.

[100] I hear you guys at a good level.

[101] you've gone away completely.

[102] No, I was never.

[103] Oh, now there I am.

[104] Oh, there you are.

[105] Hello.

[106] Now we're all here.

[107] Yeah, yeah.

[108] Now we're all here in this magic head space.

[109] When you're in the studio, you're listening to monitors, right?

[110] You're never with headphones.

[111] Always monitors, never headphones unless there are certain times when it's loud in the control room.

[112] Like, if one musician is playing live in the control room and I need to hear everything that's going on, not in the control room, then I would wear headphones.

[113] Right.

[114] The reason I like them is I find.

[115] that it concentrates your one sense above all others.

[116] To me, it creates this kind of altered state where every other auxiliary thing has been kind of silenced.

[117] Yes, I just worked on a project where we were filming a conversation and I was a football field away from the person I was speaking to and having ears in and being miced made it where we could talk like this and we could barely see each other across the room and it felt right.

[118] And then how will that look?

[119] because that'll look crazy.

[120] It's an interview, but the person being interviewed, it'll look like a soliloquy.

[121] Ah, you'll be edited out of it.

[122] Got it.

[123] Oh, interesting.

[124] What crossed my mind on the walk from the house to here wasn't in my research, wasn't in anything I wrote down, that you were in Dave, which is a show we fell in love with last year.

[125] I wasn't, I wasn't.

[126] Wait, well, I haven't seen it.

[127] You haven't watched Dave, right.

[128] Okay.

[129] Have you watched it?

[130] I've not watched it, but I've heard about it.

[131] Okay.

[132] Yeah, because in theory, Dave, goes to work with you.

[133] Is it me by name?

[134] I think it's you by name.

[135] I think he's at Shangri -La.

[136] I mean, I think that's the whole - I don't think that's really Shangri -la.

[137] He's not actually there.

[138] But you're saying he's there.

[139] But I think, you know, fuck, I don't know.

[140] I'm getting everyone in legal trouble.

[141] Everyone's getting sued.

[142] No, no, no. I'm just, I haven't seen it so I can't say, but I believe they actually asked to do it with me. I'm never around.

[143] And it didn't even register because I know, well, I'm not going to be in California.

[144] So I know that's not.

[145] going to happen.

[146] So it didn't even really land in me that that was what it was.

[147] Let's add, with total honesty and candor, they would have been pitching you that before the show had come out.

[148] Maybe a year before.

[149] And now it turns out, roll of the dice against the odds, the show's brilliant.

[150] Okay, but you're being pitched something that has a 1 % chance of being good.

[151] Yes.

[152] And your time's finite.

[153] And that's a very hard call to make it.

[154] That's a big leap of faith.

[155] You have to know the person pretty well and go, you know what?

[156] I actually think they're going to execute this.

[157] Now, they call you season two.

[158] It's a different conversation.

[159] Famously, this might interest you.

[160] The Cohen brothers have gotten along with everyone.

[161] They work with the same people over and over again.

[162] Nicholas Cage being the big exception.

[163] This was a big mystery to me for years.

[164] Why didn't those three get along?

[165] And Nicholas Cage at some point said, everyone after raising Arizona had the benefit of raising Arizona.

[166] I don't know that these guys are geniuses yet.

[167] He didn't have confidence in them.

[168] Yes.

[169] which is pretty understandable, all things considered.

[170] Ironically, that combination works out brilliantly somehow.

[171] That's the thing sometimes he never know.

[172] Sometimes it's the friction that makes the art great.

[173] You look at all the great bands and the key members often hate each other.

[174] Isn't that peculiar?

[175] And what do you think it is?

[176] Just some of them, they're smart enough to keep it altogether.

[177] Some do, some don't.

[178] It seems at least McJagger and Keith Richards, At least they never really speak that affectionately about one another in public.

[179] Correct.

[180] And then Metallica famously had all kinds of infighting, that great documentary.

[181] But you could tell they somehow had an ego that was like the band's still bigger than myself.

[182] I feel like that's the quintessential ingredient that keeps them together, maybe.

[183] Maybe so.

[184] I'm sure ego is part of it, but I don't know if it's the whole story.

[185] Not to make it about us, but we have a show with a therapist, and she was here, and we were in a fight.

[186] Yeah.

[187] And so we took the time to say, I know.

[188] It was so convenient for us.

[189] It was.

[190] We were like, okay, sidebar, now that we've talked about your show, we have an issue, can you help us?

[191] And she basically said, like, you're in a band.

[192] Well, she said you're in the Beatles.

[193] Yeah.

[194] Your thing is number one, it's working.

[195] You're in the Beatles.

[196] Don't fucking break up the Beatles.

[197] Get over whatever shit you.

[198] For me, it was incredibly useful, and it's been kind of my mind.

[199] Anytime we're at odds, I'm like, we're in the Beatles.

[200] The thing is bigger than us.

[201] Figure it out.

[202] I need to be even more self -protective about the unit than I am about my own feelings.

[203] You know, I got to prioritize the global thing.

[204] Did you see the documentary about the clash called Westway to the world?

[205] No. It's beautiful.

[206] And at the end of it, you hear Joe Strumer talking about the clash, and he left the band.

[207] And he's talking about crying like we didn't know what we had.

[208] we didn't understand yeah that's heartbreaking it really was seeing it was brutal yeah i listened to you and malcolm talk about the book we love malcolm love malcolm and so let's just get right there because i thought it was my favorite part of the whole conversation which is you guys are going through how creativity actually works or at least one aspect of it which i am totally in lockstep with you which is you actually start by trying to imitate somebody that you love or some bit of art that set you on fire, who you connect with, and then you try to replicate.

[209] But invariably, it's going to go through the filter of yourself, and then it comes out as another thing, which is incredible.

[210] And you pointed out that had you never heard the clash, you would have no interest in reggae.

[211] Because the clash is doing their version of reggae.

[212] You listen to that fall in love with it, and then that kind of opens now the door for you to reggae.

[213] And I think this is like one of the most hot button topics, but I think it's as abstract to a lot of us who have imitated others and created something different.

[214] And that is this term of appropriating other cultures music.

[215] Yes, it seems insane to me. You're only doing it because you love it.

[216] You're doing it to celebrate it.

[217] How is a celebration of something inappropriate?

[218] I guess maybe the argument, I would imagine they go, it's unfair because when you put it in the white package of just, Justin Bieber, he's not even accused of that.

[219] But let's just say, when you put it in that package that America feels safe with, then that person gets to profit in a way that the source material musician would never be able to.

[220] Was that a Freudian slip and that you're really, like, challenged by Justin Bieber?

[221] He's like your arch enemy.

[222] We weirdly do have a history.

[223] I feel like it.

[224] I feel like that there's some reason you chose him.

[225] He just slipped down.

[226] No, I actually adore him.

[227] I adore him.

[228] Do you want to know?

[229] It's really funny.

[230] Well, he does have Despacito.

[231] Oh, yes, that's the Spanish.

[232] Yeah, yeah.

[233] But he was renting a house in the neighborhood we live in.

[234] And while he was renting that house, there was paparazzi fucking everywhere.

[235] And it made my wife and I's life miserable.

[236] I happened to mention it at one point in public.

[237] It started a very fake feud to which he had to start responding when he would get an interview like, Kristen Bell and Jack Shepard say you've ruined their neighbor.

[238] That's not what I said.

[239] Just, wow, there's a lot of paparazzi.

[240] So it did create kind of a little fake thing for a while.

[241] But no, I actually saw Belieber or whatever the movie was and fell in love with that kid.

[242] Yeah, he's amazing.

[243] He is, right?

[244] Incredible talent.

[245] When you see him drumming as a child, I'm like, oh, I'm in, this kid's a savant.

[246] He's so great.

[247] Have you worked with him?

[248] We've been in the studio together and experimented great musical instincts always.

[249] So it was good experience.

[250] Okay, so now back to the music.

[251] If anyone who really has that opinion held firmly that let's just be black and white about it, Maybe white kids shouldn't be trying to create music that's been conventionally from the black culture.

[252] That's a really weird request of someone who's just listening to music.

[253] And we're saying basically, you can't respond to that music.

[254] That can't be your inspiration.

[255] It just seems like making the world a smaller place, not bringing people together.

[256] And keeping it innately segregated.

[257] It's definitely an us versus them versus we are all one.

[258] Yeah.

[259] In music, if anything, should be something that's like got no boundaries.

[260] around it.

[261] You think so.

[262] I think in art in general, when we're making creative things, it's about expressing however we see the world.

[263] And clearly, how we see the world is impacted by all of the experiences we've had in life, all the things that we've liked, all the things we haven't liked.

[264] Everything adds to our artistic voice.

[265] Yeah.

[266] A take you have in the book, which Malcolm was also fascinated by, is you don't believe art is intrinsic as much as it is extrinsic.

[267] It all comes from outside.

[268] It doesn't come from inside of us.

[269] We wear antenna both for spiritual information that guides us, instinct that guides us, and all of our life's experiences, everything we've seen, everything we've noticed, everything we've liked or disliked.

[270] When I'm working on a new creative idea, I often think about all the things I don't like to know, okay, I know it's not going to be like this, it's not going to be like this, It's not going to be like this, not going to be like this.

[271] What's left?

[272] The ruling out is part of it, too.

[273] At least I know it's not going to be like the things I don't like.

[274] Then the next mission is, what's the version that's good?

[275] That's not like any of the ones that came before it.

[276] Yeah, because there is kind of a misanthropic worldview where you hate everything, right?

[277] And then what you're left with, you couldn't probably honestly say you love.

[278] I love the things I love.

[279] Clearly.

[280] I love a lot of things.

[281] and there are versions of things that I see and just I shake my head.

[282] But not because they're not good or not because they're wrong or because they're bad.

[283] They're just not for me. That's not my taste.

[284] Someone else can love them and that's great and I support that.

[285] Yeah, I often get into fights with fellow actors about this.

[286] It's like there's some notion that if you're on a popular TV show that your in group isn't watching, it's less valid.

[287] And it's like anyone watching anything who's laughing, that laugh is equal.

[288] absolutely because all the humans are equal so you can't really say there's a hierarchy laughter bridges the gaps there are no lies in the laughter it's not a thinking process yes this is a evolutionary reaction yes okay so the book the creative act a way of being it's not prescriptive in this is how one does art a bcd it's more about creating the environment for yourself whereby art will emanate from that kind of being.

[289] Yes, it's an invitation to participate.

[290] The reader is as much a participant in the meaning of what's being said as the writer.

[291] If you've ever read the Dow Dijing, every time you read it, it's a different book.

[292] Oh, I haven't.

[293] And now I want to.

[294] It's a beautiful book.

[295] My favorite version is the Stephen Mitchell translation.

[296] It's the most translated book in the world, I believe.

[297] Maybe Rumi is first and then the Tao.

[298] Okay, so for anyone who's listening, I think it's worthwhile to go through your story a little bit because I think that would give credence to why one might listen to you about how to create a creative environment.

[299] Because I'd argue that you're in a better position to write this book than even a great singular artist.

[300] You've actually been exposed more than any other artists might be to multiple approaches to making art and to some degree having to corral people and help people find their way to the best versions of themselves.

[301] Like fine -tuning to each individual person.

[302] Yes, bringing out the art in somebody, help facilitate that process.

[303] So I think both as what you've created, but even maybe more impressively, the environment you can create that helps other people be creative is kind of unparalleled, I'm going to say.

[304] So I want to go through it a little bit.

[305] first and foremost, what does a music producer do?

[306] I can't tell you what a music producer does, because I think it's the kind of thing that different ones do it differently.

[307] Okay.

[308] So there are some who start as engineers in the recording studio, and then they grow up and they become a music producer.

[309] There are some who start out as great musicians, and then grow up and become a music producer.

[310] I came at it from the point of view of being a fan.

[311] I just love music, and I started doing it that way.

[312] So I don't know which other producers have done it that way, and I don't know which tools they use that I use.

[313] Now, some producers, like in hip -hop, let's say Kanye.

[314] Kanye's a producer, but he also is making tracks.

[315] Are those the same thing?

[316] The name is Yee now, by the way.

[317] Okay, yay.

[318] Yee.

[319] Yee, or yay?

[320] Yay.

[321] Okay, so yay is making beats as well.

[322] Yes.

[323] So he's then a producer of that song by virtue of the fact that he made those beats.

[324] Yes.

[325] Okay.

[326] But there's another way to be a producer, or multiple other ways.

[327] And I've done all of the different ways that you can be a producer.

[328] I've done all of those.

[329] In the early days of hip -hop, I made the beats.

[330] That was part of what the job was.

[331] But then George Martin, who worked with the Beatles, he didn't make beats.

[332] He helped them with the material, getting the best performance of the band.

[333] And then maybe in his case, adding some orchestration, like all of the orchestra stuff that we get to enjoy in the Beatles, was more of a George Martin concoction.

[334] And there's also a mechanical side, right?

[335] So you're overseeing the recording.

[336] I would say that's the least of it.

[337] It's closer to a movie director than a producer.

[338] The music producer's responsibility is getting the best creative thing possible.

[339] Performance, material, the finished package of, this is the best way to present this material, or at least this is the way we see it.

[340] Okay, so if we use the director analogy, there are many different types of directors.

[341] They have a host of different jobs.

[342] Some of them are quite visual, right?

[343] Like David Fincher, he is deciding exactly what's going to be photographed.

[344] That is one of his huge strengths.

[345] There are other directors who really just trust their DP.

[346] They say, I want to look like this.

[347] And then that's that.

[348] Their main focus now is getting performances out of the actors.

[349] Their other job was probably being a part of the development of the script so that they have a script they want to shoot.

[350] And then the technical aspect, they're going to be in the finishing of the movie.

[351] So they're going to be a part of the edit.

[352] They're going to sit in the edit.

[353] And they're going to make a lot of creative choices.

[354] and then they'll be a part of the testing and all that.

[355] So in that way, I guess I understand that your strength could be visual like many are.

[356] You could have two directors where it would be a completely different job description.

[357] Right, right, right, right.

[358] Same as that.

[359] Okay.

[360] So first and foremost, you start on Long Island.

[361] And in high school, you get yourself in a punk band called Prick.

[362] The Pricks.

[363] The Pricks.

[364] Okay, so sorry.

[365] It's plural.

[366] It's not singular.

[367] Multiple Pricks.

[368] There were four of us.

[369] Well, too, you might not have been pricks.

[370] I don't know.

[371] You never met the band.

[372] But you do that as a teen, and then you start Def Jam recordings.

[373] I started Def Jam when I was at NYU.

[374] But importantly, that band does whatever it does.

[375] It kind of fizzles out.

[376] And then you started another band called Hoze.

[377] Correct.

[378] Okay, this was my world.

[379] In your experience with Hoze, you're touring.

[380] You guys go to California.

[381] You're all over the place.

[382] And I believe it's there that.

[383] you come to know Ian McKay.

[384] I knew him even before that.

[385] You did.

[386] Yeah.

[387] I knew him living in New York and being a punk rocker.

[388] If you went to a punk rock club, there was always the threat that the guys from D .C. would show up.

[389] And if the guys from D .C. showed up, there would be fights.

[390] Oh, wonderful.

[391] Because that's just the way it was.

[392] Was this at CBGBB or other places?

[393] Could be CBGBs.

[394] Could be the Ukrainian national home.

[395] That's where I saw the misfits play.

[396] That's probably the first time I ever spoke to Ian.

[397] Outside of the Misfits show at the Ukrainian home on the Lower East Side, Irving Plaza was another one of the clubs.

[398] Uh -huh.

[399] There was a place called A -7.

[400] There were a bunch of clubs downstairs where punk rock might happen.

[401] Wait, why were those fights?

[402] Because it's young testosterone -filled people with a lot of aggressive music and slam dancing was a thing.

[403] Yeah.

[404] You're wearing combat boots.

[405] Yeah.

[406] Yeah, it was just a, it's an us versus them situation.

[407] Because he's in New York.

[408] It never felt like that unless the D .C. guys came.

[409] And I was a wallflower.

[410] I was not a slam dancer.

[411] I was not a fighter.

[412] I was not a participant in any of this.

[413] I just knew, okay, if the D .C. guys are here, I have to stand further back.

[414] Sure.

[415] You aren't getting involved.

[416] No, never.

[417] So I, too, was very into the punk rock scene.

[418] So E. M .K. was the lead singer of minor threat.

[419] So my very first show, my older brother takes me when I'm 11.

[420] and we go see exploited.

[421] Yeah, amazing.

[422] It's fucking terrifying.

[423] And was it the original exploiting?

[424] Yes, yes, yes.

[425] And I'm so scared.

[426] You know, it's the most scary.

[427] For an 11 -year -old to go -to, dudes have screws in the bottom of their combat boots so they can stand on your foot.

[428] Yes, big, huge mohawks.

[429] But the first punk rock music that I actually liked, the sound of, was minor threat, Fugazi, pale head, anything emicated.

[430] To me, he was so elevated.

[431] He's the best of, we'll call it second wave punk, Because we already had English punk.

[432] The Ramones in the English punk scene were like the first wave.

[433] And then the second wave of like hardcore.

[434] Yes, yes.

[435] And that's what we called it, hardcore.

[436] Do we think that draws an inordinate amount of people with trauma?

[437] Yes, I think people attracted to that scene are misfits, outcasts.

[438] But they're okay in chaos.

[439] So they must be used to some level of chaos.

[440] Also an age thing.

[441] It's like when you're a 14 -year -old boy, you might like.

[442] really aggressive stuff.

[443] It's that age.

[444] I also like pro wrestling.

[445] It feels like it's a similar thing.

[446] You beat me too.

[447] I was going to say, I know about you that you loved pro wrestling.

[448] And what was great, about those early punk bands is like the music, for me at least, was totally secondary.

[449] Each band had a gimmick.

[450] It's almost like they were big time wrestlers that had some take on it.

[451] Right.

[452] So they dress a certain way.

[453] Or shelter wear Hari Krishna's like, wow, I got to go see the Hari Krishna hardcore band.

[454] These guys are wearing those outfit.

[455] You know, sick of it all had its own thing.

[456] Like, everyone had a little...

[457] Black flag.

[458] Yes.

[459] Oh, Black Flag.

[460] Just iconography, everything.

[461] Yes.

[462] It was...

[463] Branding, really.

[464] Yeah, it's almost like if you had collected, like, garbage bail kids or were into any kind of collectible.

[465] Hardcore was perfect because every band had to have a little fingerprint kind of style.

[466] The best ones did.

[467] You're right.

[468] There's a bazillion forgettable ones in that mix.

[469] And the entry level to the music's quite low as far as the musicality.

[470] Yes.

[471] And that was one of the things that was so attractive about it to me is that this is for everybody.

[472] Anybody can be part of this.

[473] And the same thing happened with hip hop.

[474] It felt like this is for everybody.

[475] You don't have to go to music school.

[476] You don't have to be a virtuoso.

[477] And I like that feeling.

[478] It was like a version of playing.

[479] Yeah.

[480] And I'm not at all the first person to make this comparison.

[481] But to me, hip hop and punk rock, there are two peas in a pod.

[482] Absolutely.

[483] You have like the black version and the white version.

[484] It's the same exact thing.

[485] It's the same thing.

[486] Can we make it less cold?

[487] Yes.

[488] Or at least it's just blowing right on me. Something is blowing cold right on me. It snowed in Los Angeles yesterday.

[489] Wow.

[490] I know.

[491] And I'm just coming from Costa Rica, so I'm particularly.

[492] I applaud your lack of codependency because like I would find myself freezing somewhere and then I would just deal with it because I'd be too afraid you wouldn't like me. I'm like impressed by what I just witnessed.

[493] Why do I care if you like me?

[494] Yeah, you can advocate for yourself.

[495] I'm here to be myself.

[496] Yeah.

[497] I hope you like me, but I'm not going to change me so that you like me. Right.

[498] You're not going to pretend you're warm and you're cold, but I'll like you.

[499] It's admirable.

[500] You realize a lot of people struggle with it.

[501] Most people.

[502] There in lies what my job is and what the job of creativity is, is knowing yourself, being okay with yourself, and being able to say, feels cold in here.

[503] That's all my job is.

[504] Yeah.

[505] It really is.

[506] Wow, it just happened.

[507] It was like when Stutz.

[508] It was like when Stutz.

[509] It was like when.

[510] And Jonah started actually participating in Let Stutz, Therapeutes him.

[511] You know, you can talk about therapy for a long time.

[512] You can talk about it as tools, but until there's a click in the dock where we start seeing them being used, and then you can understand them in a way that's profound.

[513] So, yes, we've got to talk about your book all day long.

[514] Also, I've been asked about how do you have confidence in your taste?

[515] And it's like, I'm either cold or I'm not cold.

[516] It's so clear.

[517] It's like, I'm getting chilly.

[518] I feel like there's cold wind blowing on me. and it has no more meaning than seems cold in here.

[519] There's no greater meaning.

[520] There's no insult.

[521] It's so face value.

[522] This is what's happening.

[523] And I'm responding to what's happening.

[524] That's all.

[525] Within that is a tool because for most people, it is much more cluttered than that.

[526] Every little thing, am I cold or am I not?

[527] Because a lot of people go, I'm cold.

[528] Huh, they're not.

[529] Why am I cold?

[530] They're not.

[531] Oh, don't you have an iron deficiency?

[532] You know, it could lead to a million thoughts.

[533] It's true.

[534] Or like, this is their space and I can't be the one to call it out.

[535] Like, Letterman famously, did you ever do Letterman in the day?

[536] I never did, but I know we kept it freezing.

[537] It was like 50 degrees in there, right?

[538] And you went in knowing this motherfucker like ice cold.

[539] If you just said to me, you know, we really like doing the show cold.

[540] Right.

[541] We could get you a blanket.

[542] It's like, okay.

[543] Like, I would roll with it, but I'm still telling you.

[544] I'm not going to walk out.

[545] I think it's okay.

[546] Yes, I would talk about this.

[547] I love it.

[548] I love it.

[549] It should be easier.

[550] That's fascinating.

[551] Yeah, that was really good.

[552] Okay, so I bring up the punk rock hip -hop thing because to me it's quite easy to understand that right after your hardcore phase, you kind of get really, really interested in hip -hop very early on in New York when it's really just all your first wave.

[553] You meet Russell Simmons.

[554] You guys kind of partner up.

[555] And the first person you put out is L .O. Cool J. The first thing I did was I would go to hip -hop clubs all the time.

[556] and I loved the experience of going to the hip -hop clubs.

[557] And then I decided I wanted to make a hip -hop record because I'd already made a couple of punk rock records and I'd just like the experience of doing it.

[558] And I felt like going to the hip -hop clubs, there was a certain energy and a certain musicality that was different than the rap records being made.

[559] So now looking back, what it was more like a documentarian, seeing, okay, they're making movies about this, but I'm here, and it's nothing like the movies.

[560] Let's just do a documentary of what it's really like.

[561] Because what it's like is better than the movies.

[562] Right.

[563] That was the feeling.

[564] Yeah.

[565] So the first hip -hop record I made was called It's Yours by Tila Rock and Jazzy Jay.

[566] And then based on that, I started getting demo tape sent to my dorm room because people like that record.

[567] And one of them was from L .L. Cool J. Oh, my God.

[568] And then Adam Harvitz, who was Ad Rock and the Beastie Boys, was living in the dorm with me. And he said, I think there's listen to this one.

[569] This one's really good.

[570] It was L .L. It said ladies love Cool J on the cafe.

[571] Yeah, that's what it stands for, babies.

[572] Yeah.

[573] And then I...

[574] I didn't even know that.

[575] You didn't?

[576] Oh, my God.

[577] Well, you knew it intrinsically looking at them.

[578] Ladies do love Cool Jays, but I didn't know that was what it stood for.

[579] The description matched.

[580] So I invited L .L. to come to the dorm room.

[581] Uh -huh.

[582] And he came to the dorm room.

[583] And he knocks on the door.

[584] I opened the door and he's like, uh, you're Rick Rubin?

[585] I thought you were black.

[586] Uh -huh.

[587] I'm not.

[588] So he came in and then we became friends.

[589] I made his first record.

[590] And that all happened before I got to meet wrestling.

[591] When you described that little tableau, what I think was cool about that moment is that youth was the biggest identity marker at that moment.

[592] Youth, excitement for the world you're entering, ambition, creating new things.

[593] That kind of can transcend all the other identity demarkers, race, ethnicity, your sexual preference.

[594] I don't know.

[595] I remember being downtown Detroit meeting people and it was like, none of the other shit was relevant.

[596] I was like, we're going to St. Andrews tonight.

[597] Following whatever your passion is, whatever it is.

[598] Okay, so you put out LL Cool J and then quickly thereafter you're working on Run DMC's album.

[599] And I was the DJ in the Beastie Boys at that time.

[600] You also encouraged them to veer from punk into hip -hop.

[601] They were a punk band and they made their first hip -hop song called Cookie Puss and to perform it live, they needed a DJ and they asked me to be their DJ.

[602] So that's how I started working with them was I was the DJ for their live band, but I didn't DJ when they were playing and then it was time to do cookie puss that I would DJ.

[603] And then we started doing some rap songs where I would DJ.

[604] And as it was happening, we all were punk rockers and it seemed for all of us, all we listened to was rap music.

[605] Right, right, right.

[606] So at some point, I was like, maybe it'd be true to, like, do this.

[607] Yeah.

[608] This is what we're feeling.

[609] Was that a hard, though, decision at all, or was it easy?

[610] It just seemed obvious.

[611] It's like, like, it's cold in here.

[612] Why still this?

[613] Yeah.

[614] And if someone said, because this is what I like, okay, but no one said that.

[615] It's just like, okay, let's do it this way.

[616] Yeah.

[617] And not to be too critical to that music of that time, but I will say hip hop is superior musically at that moment in time than a lot of the punk rock is.

[618] there's a lot more happening who's to say because for someone the punk rock is it but again i think you can't pit musics against each other the best hip hop record isn't better than the best fugazi record at being fugazi agreed so do you know what i'm saying it's like it's just apples and oranges i do but what i'll push back on it is if you have an enormous creative appetite and you're looking at the structure of punk rock at that time and you're looking at what the band looks like and what's being consumed.

[619] There's not a ton of room for growth, nor was there.

[620] That was the appeal.

[621] It's no barrier to entry.

[622] Get out your playing power chords.

[623] That's great.

[624] Fugazi kind of broke that mold a bit, and that's why we talk about them.

[625] But there were lots of things happening in hip hop that became incredible.

[626] People are sampling jazz.

[627] I just think if you were creative, you could have sensed the explosion in options is there.

[628] I'll tell you, I didn't notice it.

[629] Hearing what you're saying, that sounds right.

[630] It was not an intellectual.

[631] It was as simple as, this is what we're listening to.

[632] It was exciting us.

[633] It was a visceral reaction.

[634] So everything in my life has been based on that.

[635] It's never been based on what I think it is.

[636] That always comes after.

[637] Yeah, as you're trying to make sense of what I made the emotional decision.

[638] Yeah, why did we do this?

[639] Why do I like this?

[640] But liking it is not intellectual.

[641] Liking it is, it tastes good, it doesn't taste good.

[642] It's cold.

[643] It's warm.

[644] It's a reaction.

[645] Right.

[646] Can we deviate for just one second?

[647] And I want to know about your parents because you have so much innate confidence, it seems, even which is incredible from an early age, even in college where everyone's kind of like, figuring themselves out.

[648] You're hosting ANR meetings in your dorm room.

[649] Exactly.

[650] Exactly.

[651] Who do you credit for that?

[652] Had to be my parents.

[653] I'm an only child.

[654] You could say I would have been a spoiled only child other than I wasn't a bad kid.

[655] Right.

[656] But my parents certainly were the son rose in seven.

[657] on me. They do it.

[658] And absolutely.

[659] And whatever I thought was the way it was going to be.

[660] Going back to it's hotter, it's cold in here.

[661] That helps.

[662] Because again, the reason I got to go through analysis is I'm a member of a family.

[663] I'm the middle child.

[664] There's an older.

[665] There's a younger.

[666] If I'm to express, it's too hot or cold into me, there's going to be a group reaction.

[667] There's some only child stuff that helps in that direction.

[668] Absolutely.

[669] Yeah, yeah.

[670] And I had no other experience, so I can't compare it because I didn't get to do the other.

[671] Right.

[672] One time I was doing therapy and one of the exercises in the therapy was to imagine sitting in the room that you lived in when you were eight years old and you're sitting in that room now and imagine your eight -year -old self comes into the room and you get to have a conversation with that person.

[673] Wouldn't that be fun?

[674] And it was really interesting and that was the first time after that experience was like, oh, this might be what it would be like to have an older brother.

[675] You know, like to have a sibling.

[676] Yes.

[677] Because I never had any of that.

[678] I wouldn't even know.

[679] But that was the first glimpse of, oh, maybe that's what it's like.

[680] Yeah, where you could click into the feeling a little bit through that exercise.

[681] Yeah.

[682] All of the kids that I went to school with didn't like the things I liked.

[683] Because most of them had older brothers and sisters.

[684] They liked Led Zeppelin.

[685] I didn't like Led Zeppelin.

[686] You know, John Bonham died when I was in junior high school or high school.

[687] And it's like, that was already old music.

[688] Right.

[689] So it wasn't my music.

[690] The Doors, that wasn't my music.

[691] I came around to love Led Zeppelin.

[692] I came around to love the doors, but later, that wasn't my music.

[693] My music was Ted Nugent, Aerosmith, A -C, D -C.

[694] Now we're talking.

[695] Stranglehold, about one of the best songs ever written.

[696] Amazing.

[697] History of music, right?

[698] So my first concert I went to was Queen.

[699] Second concert I went to was Kiss.

[700] Incredible.

[701] Yeah, so back to the big time wrestling.

[702] Yeah.

[703] From hard rock, then it was punk rock.

[704] But I was only punk in my school.

[705] It's almost more fun.

[706] The discovery that you like Led Zeppelin later is almost great.

[707] It's incredible.

[708] Ooh.

[709] Ridiculous.

[710] And Bonham.

[711] Yeah.

[712] And still, so many of the things that we don't think are cool when we're growing up, when you go back and realize, like, the Bee Gees are one of the greatest groups of all time.

[713] And that disco music is one of my favorite kinds of music.

[714] Maybe when it was happening, I liked some songs, but I didn't like it as a genre.

[715] My life was privately and quietly because I was an only child and kind of kept to my.

[716] myself anyway.

[717] Yeah, you and have an older brother coming and go, what the fuck are you listening to?

[718] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[719] What's up, guys?

[720] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[721] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[722] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[723] And I don't mean just friends.

[724] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[725] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[726] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[727] We've all been there.

[728] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[729] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[730] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[731] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[732] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[733] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[734] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[735] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[736] Okay, so it's worth noting just from there because it's kind of unparalleled and I want to celebrate it a bit.

[737] So you end up working with the Beastie Boys, you guys have great success.

[738] This is awesome.

[739] In 1986, you start working with Slayer.

[740] In Monica, Slayer is like musically maybe the high watermark of that whole genre.

[741] I mean, Slayer is fucking...

[742] They're full out.

[743] It's ridiculous.

[744] Of punk.

[745] Will we say metal?

[746] Speed metal, Death metal.

[747] Okay.

[748] They were almost like an answer to Metallica.

[749] It was like Metallica, they did something.

[750] Metallica to me is Fugazi.

[751] Like they came in and they were musical in that world.

[752] Yes.

[753] And then some other people like Slayer came in and they were like, all right, now we're going to fucking pour cocaine all over that.

[754] Yeah.

[755] Slayer is insane.

[756] Do you remember Geraldo used to have this TV show where he would interview like a group of people about a subject.

[757] And there was a show called Kids Who Kill.

[758] Sure.

[759] And there were five kids, all of whom who killed somebody.

[760] And the only thing they seemed to have in common was Slayer.

[761] Oh, my God.

[762] Well, Monica, their symbol was a pentagram, the big fiery circle of the pentagram.

[763] They were going straight at it.

[764] Something tells me I would have veered away.

[765] Oh, you would have been terrified of Slayer.

[766] It was scary.

[767] It was scary amazing.

[768] But it had this energy for the people who loved someone.

[769] Slayer, which was a lot of kids.

[770] Oh, they played stadiums.

[771] It was the only thing in life that they cared about.

[772] It's like a life raft.

[773] It really was.

[774] It really was.

[775] You know the dudes in your school who likes Slayer?

[776] They probably weren't in your school.

[777] They were probably at 7 -Eleven playing video games and getting drunk.

[778] Well, that's also true.

[779] Or at an alternative school.

[780] Like, the dudes who left your school in 11th grade, let's say.

[781] So you go into hip -up, but then to me, that makes total sense that you find yourself to Slayer.

[782] The energy is in the music.

[783] There's energy.

[784] There's life in it.

[785] You feel it.

[786] In all of these cases, punk rock, hip hop, Slayer, it's all outsider music.

[787] None of this is mainstream music.

[788] Even though it ended up getting popular, if you were involved in hip -hop when I was involved in hip -hop, there was no chance it was ever going to get popular.

[789] Right.

[790] It was underground music that regular people didn't think was music.

[791] Not bad music.

[792] It's not music.

[793] Yes.

[794] The fact that all those people were playing for 100 people and then stadiums is so spectacular and fun.

[795] So Slayer's a great pit stop.

[796] He makes the cult's best album in 87.

[797] Now, 88, you and Russell Simmons, you guys part ways.

[798] Around then.

[799] Amicabal or there's a difference of opinion?

[800] It was fine.

[801] We were friends and partners, and it felt like the partnership was in trouble, but the friendship was fine.

[802] And I remember where we went, we went out to lunch.

[803] And I said, I feel like we shouldn't.

[804] do this together anymore.

[805] I said, do you want to leave?

[806] He's like, I don't want to leave.

[807] It's like, okay, then I guess I'll leave.

[808] It really was as simple as that.

[809] Wow, wow, wow, wow.

[810] Again, no, this goes back to the internal confidence that you clearly have, which is, okay, I'll be fine.

[811] Yeah.

[812] I think a lot of people would have had a very hard time walking away from the well, they would have been smart.

[813] God, I knew more.

[814] It wouldn't have been a good choice to do what I did.

[815] Financially.

[816] Yeah, like business wise, this is a terrible thing to do.

[817] And I didn't care.

[818] That's not really your focus.

[819] No, I did what felt right to me, which is, this is feeling weird.

[820] I'm in a partnership with someone who has a different direction that they want to go than I want to go.

[821] I don't want to go in that direction.

[822] And I know he does want to go in the direction I want to go.

[823] The best thing we can do is do those two directions independently as friends.

[824] Unhook our train cars.

[825] To people who know you culturally, you occupy this interesting zone.

[826] You two are a big -time wrestler.

[827] Do you recognize that?

[828] No. Well, first of all, you have such a look.

[829] Anyone like the fucking humongous beard, right?

[830] You're barefoot all the time.

[831] You are a big time wrestler, which is fantastic.

[832] You're also known to meditate.

[833] You were known to be vegan.

[834] You're known to be spiritual.

[835] Only back when it wasn't cool, though.

[836] I know, I know.

[837] But there's a lore.

[838] There's a lore around you.

[839] Rick's been stuck in a bad cycle where it's like even Def Jam.

[840] That was a street lingo term that got popular.

[841] So he had a ceremony where he buried it.

[842] It's true.

[843] We had a full funeral.

[844] That was incredible.

[845] It was incredible.

[846] Where was it at?

[847] Hollywood Forever Cemetery.

[848] There is a tombstone for the word death.

[849] Oh, my God.

[850] The minister presiding over the funeral was Al Sharpton.

[851] No. Yes.

[852] The amazing Creskin, the mind reader, performed at the funeral.

[853] How many people are at this funeral?

[854] A thousand people.

[855] was on the news.

[856] It was the craziest thing.

[857] Wow.

[858] Because when he moved to California in 88, he started another label called Deaf American Recordings.

[859] And then in 90, or I don't know what year you did the ceremony, but then he lobbed off the deaf and just made an American recordings.

[860] And I did it.

[861] When I read that Death had been put in Webster's dictionary, had become obsolete.

[862] The whole idea of death was that this is not a word in the dictionary.

[863] This is the insider talk.

[864] Right.

[865] So when it became the mainstream, it was no longer for me. Interesting.

[866] Okay, now just as a fan, I'm only going to geek out about two of your professional endeavors on a level that's just fandom and you're going to have to appease me. Ghetto Boys is one of the first groups.

[867] Now, Ghetto Boys for me in 12th grade, I know every word to every fucking song.

[868] So how do you come to be working with Ghetto Boys?

[869] Who are they when you meet them?

[870] And then please walk me through some of the creative experience of working on those.

[871] I had lost my love of hip hop after public enemy.

[872] He signed public enemy, Monica.

[873] That first wave of hip hop was really exciting.

[874] And at the time that we were making it, it was in this community of people, like you were saying about punk rock, where everyone had their own voice.

[875] Everyone had a thing.

[876] Yeah, you had to define yourself.

[877] Absolutely.

[878] So in the early days of hip hop, that's how it was.

[879] Some new artists would come out or a new record come out, and it would change the whole game for everybody because everyone was like, whoa, can't believe you could do that.

[880] That's so cool.

[881] And it was never, they did that, so I'm going to do that.

[882] It was more they did that, so that means now we could do this.

[883] Yeah, like public enemy now of a sudden there's like guitar and shit.

[884] Like it's kind of punk -rocky hip -hop.

[885] I imagine people hear that and they're like, well, fuck me, we can do anything now in that space.

[886] Yeah, that was one of the things.

[887] but that's not what happens.

[888] Oh, okay, okay.

[889] So hip hop was a not popular art form, lots of creativity from a lot of different directions, and then all of a sudden, these Def Jam records got really popular, nationally at that time, and maybe in the UK as well.

[890] Then it seemed like every new hip -hop record that came out sounded like a Def Jam record.

[891] They tried to do what worked, and all the new artists were inspired by it, so they were just doing what worked, and it felt like part of this incredible creative, inspiring community that turned into a bunch of people chasing success.

[892] Okay, great.

[893] Let's pause right there because I think there's a great, great part of your book that we could talk about at this moment because I think there's a force that happens.

[894] Your creativity when there are no expectations is different than your creativity with expectations.

[895] And I think once people know that you can go double platinum with this art form, it fucks their brains up.

[896] Some people.

[897] By the way, it's true of anything.

[898] This is not just hip hop.

[899] Oh, right.

[900] This is expectations versus process.

[901] And I would say, in the case of hip hop, no one had broken big.

[902] So the expectation to break big is insane.

[903] Anyone involved in hip hop at that time did it because they loved it because there was nothing to get to.

[904] There's a book called Born to Run.

[905] It came out about 10 years ago.

[906] It was a bestseller.

[907] And I remember a friend of mine gave me the book.

[908] He's like, this is a book about running.

[909] You're going to love this.

[910] Like, running.

[911] I've never been interested in running.

[912] I'm not athletic.

[913] Nothing about this is interesting.

[914] Don't have any running in your future.

[915] No, he's like, read this book.

[916] And I really like the guy.

[917] So I read the book.

[918] Reading the book is making me cry, it's so beautiful.

[919] It's a beautiful book.

[920] Oh, man, I want to read it.

[921] Yeah, you're going to love it.

[922] Since then, I met the author.

[923] I'll introduce you to you the author, and he'd be a good person to talk to.

[924] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[925] All the choices I made in my life, I didn't make them thinking they were going to be successful.

[926] I was just following things I liked.

[927] Yeah.

[928] Against all odds and against everyone who knew better telling me not to do it.

[929] Every step of the way.

[930] To this day.

[931] Yes, I think the leap of faith for people listening would be, well, basically you're asking me to not be ambitious or want to create a safe, but no, I think the leap of faith would be like, if you do this, it's actually your best chance.

[932] It's hard to believe, but it is.

[933] I'm not saying it'll work, but your best chance of it working is to really be true to yourself because then it's you.

[934] In any of these creative things, the product is you.

[935] And if you're imitating someone else or doing it because someone else thinks it's that way, then it's them.

[936] Yeah.

[937] It's not you.

[938] Right.

[939] And they're always going to be better than you at being them.

[940] Absolutely.

[941] Exactly.

[942] Hip hop had sort of lost its luster for me. The first thing that got me excited about hip hop again was Easy E &NW.

[943] And then I heard an early version of the ghetto boys when they spelled it ghettoed like the normal spelling.

[944] G .H. I thought they had potential to be great, but the production wasn't as good as like NWA's production.

[945] And I thought maybe I can help.

[946] So that was how it happened.

[947] And then I went to Houston and I met them.

[948] They performed for me in a small dance club.

[949] And they did a performance as if there was an audience there.

[950] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[951] And they were great.

[952] All right, really quick, do you think they benefited from what we just spoke of, which was because New York was like the hegemonic.

[953] center of hip hop, if you were in Houston, you probably didn't have expectations.

[954] Like, you probably were liberated from everything that was around you.

[955] It was a combination of that and the fact that their life experience was so different than the people in New York.

[956] When you're coming from somewhere else, you got different stuff to talk about.

[957] It's you have a different life experience.

[958] And all of that works itself into what you do.

[959] Yes.

[960] And Monica, I'm assuming you don't know the ghetto boys.

[961] You sometimes sing a lot.

[962] Their lyrics scare you.

[963] Yes, yes.

[964] Well, they're intense.

[965] It's intentional.

[966] I mean, it was called horror rap.

[967] Yeah.

[968] November 1st, 1966, a damn fool was born with the mind of a lunatic.

[969] I should have been killed, but just a fucking round and let me live.

[970] I knew we'd get a couple.

[971] A couple of a lunatic.

[972] How great is that?

[973] Oh, how old are you at this time?

[974] Don't remember.

[975] I'll do some fast math for you.

[976] Yeah, do some fast math.

[977] 92, probably.

[978] Okay.

[979] So 30.

[980] You're like 30.

[981] They're younger than you, I'm imagining, at that point.

[982] Yeah, yeah.

[983] Was there any point where you got self -conscious about being older than the artist you were?

[984] Never.

[985] Because, again, you were youthful with all of them.

[986] I was usually the youngest person.

[987] Mm -hmm.

[988] That's what I'm saying.

[989] The transition I could imagine might be like...

[990] It didn't matter.

[991] I just thought of this the other day, and I've never said this out loud.

[992] But I think it's interesting is that I can remember my parents talking about my beard.

[993] and my parents saying Rick grew his beard so that the artist that he work with take him more seriously and I'm like where did they get this?

[994] Like it's completely and this is my parents but like a fictional story that they made up that they assumed first it was like maybe this is why he did it and then it became that's why he did it yes do you have any idea why you grew a beard because I decided to stop shaving it wasn't even about the beard It's just, I just don't like shaving and stop shaving.

[995] Yeah, that's fair.

[996] Do you trim it?

[997] Nothing.

[998] That's the full length.

[999] It may get a little longer, make it a little shorter breaks.

[1000] Isn't that a curious thing to you?

[1001] Why is the facial hairs like, we're going to grow to here and somehow we have a mechanism to stop growing?

[1002] Who knows?

[1003] I don't know.

[1004] It's magic.

[1005] I haven't had a haircut in any way.

[1006] I can't remember the last time.

[1007] Really?

[1008] It's just handling itself.

[1009] Handling itself.

[1010] It's not something you want to dedicate any utiles to.

[1011] Uh -uh.

[1012] Do you shampoo it?

[1013] All the time.

[1014] Okay.

[1015] Yeah.

[1016] Hourly.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] Yeah, I like shampoo.

[1019] Yeah, that feels nice.

[1020] Okay.

[1021] I don't know if I have any more ghetto boy questions.

[1022] I'm just delighted that you were a part of that.

[1023] I didn't know that until today, and I just got so thrilled because they're one of my great loves.

[1024] And you know, Mike Judge is just fucking obsessed with the ghetto boys.

[1025] I love Mike Judge.

[1026] You were with the red hot chili peppers through the real prolific period, 91 to 2011.

[1027] As you're saying, I'm going on the same ride as a consumer.

[1028] So it's like, I'm a little bored of rap.

[1029] This is getting whatever.

[1030] Then Jazzmataz comes out.

[1031] I'm like, oh, this is new on.

[1032] Now I'm really, I'm into guru.

[1033] I'm into this stuff.

[1034] And then get up, boys, I'm like, fuck, what the fuck is this?

[1035] Similarly, like, punk, hardcore, all that stuff.

[1036] And then chili peppers reignites something.

[1037] Something new again.

[1038] Yes.

[1039] It's kind of back to big time wrestling, though.

[1040] Everything's there.

[1041] It's like, I want to be Anthony Kedis.

[1042] Fleas fucking from another planet.

[1043] The music's so clean.

[1044] Like, God, is it clean?

[1045] I know that's part of your signature kind of producing style.

[1046] They're just the best musicians.

[1047] Flea, Chad, and John.

[1048] I don't know of a better three group of players playing together on the planet.

[1049] Right.

[1050] They're incredible.

[1051] Yeah, they play live like they're being mixed and separated.

[1052] And they play live like jazz.

[1053] Like, it's not the same every time.

[1054] It's like they're expressing themselves musically.

[1055] They're not just playing their parts.

[1056] Right.

[1057] Yes.

[1058] Yes, they're all shining yet in cohesion.

[1059] You're right, there's so much happening.

[1060] It's almost like there's three solos happening at once yet.

[1061] It's not overwhelming.

[1062] Unbelievable.

[1063] I have goosebumps thinking about how fucking amazing the chili peppers were.

[1064] You ever get seen alive?

[1065] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1066] Oh, incredible.

[1067] And then, of course, because everyone in the world knows, my number one, the person I think of as, oh, real life Picasso lives among us, and that's Jay -Z.

[1068] I don't have respect for any artists alive that rivals what I think of Jay -Z.

[1069] and you produce 99 problems.

[1070] You've already done so much at this point.

[1071] You've been a part of so many moments and you've seen special things happen.

[1072] Does it at all neutralize it?

[1073] Or are you able in that experience of making 99 problems where you wake up and go like, oh, fuck, here we are again.

[1074] Do you have that sensation?

[1075] Are they all the same?

[1076] What's happening with that?

[1077] When you leave the studio with something that you're excited about, it's good.

[1078] I'm lucky in that it happens a lot.

[1079] And I know that if it doesn't happen, I'll keep working on it until that happens.

[1080] And again, whether they connect in a big way or whether they don't, it's okay.

[1081] Like the feeling for me is that, well, we made this thing.

[1082] It's so cool.

[1083] I'm excited to play it for my friend.

[1084] If I can play it for you, I'm done.

[1085] It's already successful.

[1086] Yeah.

[1087] If I feel good enough to play it for you.

[1088] How about this?

[1089] When I'm directing a movie, I don't know how many scenes in totality there might be.

[1090] Let's say there's 160 scenes.

[1091] I'm hoping to drive home each day with that feeling.

[1092] Like, we got the thing we were trying to get.

[1093] But also, occasionally you're driving home and you go, oh my God, we got the thing we wanted to get times two.

[1094] I don't think anyone's gotten that thing yet before.

[1095] It's the best feeling.

[1096] Yes, transcendent.

[1097] And if people get it, great.

[1098] But if they don't, it doesn't matter because you know it.

[1099] Yes, I totally agree.

[1100] You know it.

[1101] You feel it.

[1102] And the things after that for everyone to connect to it are all out of your control.

[1103] Yeah.

[1104] How do you get at peace with that?

[1105] Has it ever bothered you in the past?

[1106] If you driven home from a 99 problems and it didn't turn out to be 99 problems, is there any sadness about that?

[1107] I had so much success early on so consistently that the first time something didn't do well, I didn't even understand it.

[1108] Right.

[1109] But then once I understood it's like, oh, but it doesn't mean that it's bad.

[1110] It means a lot of things.

[1111] It could mean that it's bad.

[1112] It could mean wrong place, wrong time.

[1113] Something else happened at that time that took the light away.

[1114] sucked all the air out of the room and people weren't ready for that.

[1115] Or, carmically, that artist, as great as they are, for some reason, they're not meant to connect in a big way.

[1116] We don't control that.

[1117] We don't know.

[1118] You think of how many really talented people you've met who are not household dames.

[1119] I can think of incredibly talented people who can't take care of themselves well enough to where they have to live on the street.

[1120] It doesn't take away from their talent.

[1121] It's just they don't have whatever is necessary besides that talent to be able to exist in the world.

[1122] Yeah, they don't have the infrastructure.

[1123] Yeah, there's more than just talent.

[1124] It does require a lot.

[1125] Absolutely.

[1126] Work ethic.

[1127] There's so much to it.

[1128] There's parts of it that are in our control, like the work ethic, you could show up.

[1129] Yeah.

[1130] But then beyond that, whether the company that was funding your picture has the right distribution deal, or they sold it to the streamer that nobody.

[1131] He watches.

[1132] Totally, totally.

[1133] It's like, well, you don't control any of that.

[1134] Even discipline, I think, is more genetic than we think.

[1135] You think?

[1136] I kind of do.

[1137] Sometimes I think we can elevate ourselves.

[1138] Be like, I work so hard and I'm so disciplined or I do this.

[1139] And really, I'm like, I think that's maybe just downloaded.

[1140] But within that, that's what the book's about, there are certainly strategies and approaches and ways to frame things and think about things.

[1141] Any human can maximize whatever they're given.

[1142] aptitude is.

[1143] Absolutely.

[1144] And for anything you're learning to do, you can get better at it, whatever it is.

[1145] Yeah.

[1146] Not to keep bringing back to myself and specifically idiocracy, but that's a great example.

[1147] Idiocracy comes out.

[1148] I don't mean a person for five years who's seen that movie.

[1149] I leave that movie going, my God, look what we did.

[1150] And then, oh, I guess we didn't.

[1151] And then five years later, it starts.

[1152] And then now, what, 20 years later, it's like bigger than it's ever been.

[1153] With the exception of, like, there's a couple, what was that Sugarman?

[1154] It doesn't happen in music terribly often, does it, where someone was really ahead of the curve and then 15 years later it gets discovered.

[1155] It feels less so.

[1156] No examples come to mind.

[1157] Yeah.

[1158] That's a bummer.

[1159] I just heard a story yesterday, though, where Bruce Springsteen was going to be dropped by his label.

[1160] I don't remember how many records he had put out before there was starting to feel like, okay, this isn't going to happen.

[1161] Yeah.

[1162] And then the breakthrough album happened, but it could have gone either way before that.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] You too, I think it was the fourth album Before anybody cared about them She's wild How do you all get along, like producers?

[1165] Because I'll tell you within my industry There are certain pockets of job titles That tend to get along really well And there's some that it feels competitive or whatever TV show runners seem to get along really well Because they all get the fucking Herculean effort It takes to run a show So when they meet each other, it's like, oh my God, I can talk to someone that understands Like, do you get along with Jimmy Iveen?

[1166] Yeah, I spoke to him yesterday.

[1167] Oh, you did?

[1168] Yeah.

[1169] I met him 37 years ago.

[1170] No kidding.

[1171] Unbelievable.

[1172] Not far after him making that album with Bruce.

[1173] That's what made me think of it.

[1174] He's working on that album with Springsteen, right?

[1175] Probably so.

[1176] I had just produced the cult.

[1177] My first rock record, and I met Jimmy, I didn't know who he was, but I got introduced as Jimmy Ivan.

[1178] He's a record producer.

[1179] Maybe the first professional record producer I ever met.

[1180] Did you have any anxiety?

[1181] Because it's a job you've figured out on your own, for the most part.

[1182] I never felt like.

[1183] I was in competition with anyone because I felt like I was doing something different.

[1184] Right.

[1185] I wanted to read one thing.

[1186] In fact, I meant to read at the very beginning of this.

[1187] This is a quote from Dr. Dre.

[1188] He's so impressive.

[1189] It's crazy.

[1190] Dr. Dre said, Ruben is hands down the dopest producer ever that anyone would ever want to be ever.

[1191] Wow.

[1192] I mean, I know we try to avoid letting our ego get too inflated, but that feels good, doesn't it?

[1193] Whenever anybody likes anything, I can't believe it.

[1194] Because I know I like crazy things.

[1195] Yeah, but it's nice when peers who you have great respect for.

[1196] It's amazing.

[1197] It's beautiful.

[1198] Like if fucking Danny Ricardo, Formula One driver tells me I'm a great driver, it's going to mean a little more to me than when Monica tells me. And I love Mike.

[1199] I love Monica more than Dana Ricardo, but still, I'm going to, that's going to be a little spring in myself.

[1200] Speaking of which, pretty cool vehicle out there.

[1201] Thank you.

[1202] That's my sand car.

[1203] That's just for the sand dune.

[1204] Where do you do sand?

[1205] Glamis.

[1206] It's about 200 miles away.

[1207] It's in California.

[1208] And then it butts up to the wall to Mexico.

[1209] And it's 400 square miles of enormous sand dunes.

[1210] And the family and I all go a few times a year, stay in the motorhome.

[1211] Sounds super fun.

[1212] It's the most fun motor sport activity I do and I do all of them.

[1213] Is there potential to flip over?

[1214] No, there's other wrists, but flipping over is not really one of them.

[1215] No, you can jump that thing 40 feet in the air.

[1216] And when you land, it's like sitting down in this lazy boy.

[1217] Well, the razor will flip.

[1218] The razor will, yeah, but not the sand car.

[1219] Right.

[1220] Yeah.

[1221] The suspension travels 36 inches in by.

[1222] It's so cool looking.

[1223] Yeah, and it hovers across everything.

[1224] It's really cool.

[1225] It's an insect.

[1226] You get in this insect, and it just fucking articulates over everything.

[1227] It's like such cognitive dissonance because you're approaching all these things, and yet your body's flat, level, and comfortable in the things doing all this stuff.

[1228] The physics side of your brain that's predicting how you're going to feel is constantly being inverted.

[1229] Cool.

[1230] Yeah, it's kind of a semi -spiritual experience, I think.

[1231] Yeah, it's like you couldn't dream of moving through.

[1232] time and space this way.

[1233] What's your connection to spirituality?

[1234] Great.

[1235] This is very deserving of a conversation because I think you'll find Malcolm and I a little bit similar.

[1236] Like we're a little hard to crack on this front.

[1237] In fact, you asked him like, what's a moment you could point to as spirituality?

[1238] He said his father's passing and the power of it that was unexpected.

[1239] And you said, and do you think that experience has changed your life?

[1240] He said profoundly.

[1241] Yeah.

[1242] So this is something I'm striving for.

[1243] I'm super analytical for lots of reasons.

[1244] Many stepdad's.

[1245] I don't trust anybody, so I don't trust anyone's telling me they've had an experience.

[1246] I'm a skeptic, and yet I love Stutz.

[1247] My own therapist is like, you know, it's going to be a component.

[1248] You're going to have to figure out how to embrace.

[1249] You've never had any kind of a mystical experience.

[1250] They're children related, mostly.

[1251] Yeah, there's something about that experience that is...

[1252] Pure in a way I didn't know, pure existed.

[1253] Pure love.

[1254] Yeah, zero fear of commitment.

[1255] I didn't think I had that in me. Like, I'm committed forever.

[1256] Yes.

[1257] And can't wait to be committed forever.

[1258] I didn't think I would have that in my life.

[1259] Beautiful.

[1260] Congratulations.

[1261] Thank you.

[1262] You have a child.

[1263] I do.

[1264] Yeah, a little younger than mine, maybe.

[1265] He's six years old, my boy.

[1266] Yes.

[1267] And even with all your different practices and the journey you've been on, did that also just become an entirely different?

[1268] It's radical.

[1269] He's so cool.

[1270] He's so cool.

[1271] I want to say you wouldn't remember this, but the Avert brothers were recording at Shangri -Law, and I'm really good friends with Seth, and I stopped by to see them when they had just finished out.

[1272] I want to see your little boy might have been there.

[1273] Yeah, he was there.

[1274] Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1275] How great are the Avid brothers?

[1276] Oh my God.

[1277] What a great band.

[1278] And the most through and through good people I've ever met in my life.

[1279] I can remember meeting their dad and saying, what did you do?

[1280] How do these humans exist on the planet?

[1281] Yes.

[1282] Everyone else I know is crazy.

[1283] Yes.

[1284] They're completely grounded, loving, together, unbelievably artistic.

[1285] We talked about how hard it is for just a band to exist.

[1286] My brother and I could never be in a band and share credit and share writing and share, share, share, share, share, share.

[1287] You're fighting for your parents' attention your whole life.

[1288] It's an innately competitive dynamic.

[1289] It's astounding.

[1290] Now, I'm going to be dead honest with you, though.

[1291] Yeah.

[1292] As I just said, I'm a skeptic and I'm a cynic.

[1293] So as I've been friends with them, I'm going, this is too good to be true.

[1294] That's interesting.

[1295] And I'm watching that beautiful documentary that Judd made about them.

[1296] And a lot of it's at Shangri -La, your studio.

[1297] The most incredible moment of the whole movie happens when they record that song.

[1298] No hard feelings Incredible Oh my God The last power is like I have no enemies I was like There's spirituality I can't believe in mankind The way that that song can make me believe in mankind Right And when you hear him singing You know he's honest I know he's honest Yes I don't question it one bit.

[1299] Yes.

[1300] Oh, my God.

[1301] I have no enemies.

[1302] Fuck.

[1303] What a beautiful, beautiful song.

[1304] I had a funny experience watching that movie.

[1305] Oh, yeah.

[1306] Because after that, I don't know if you remember what happened right after that.

[1307] So they do this take of this song.

[1308] They walk outside.

[1309] That is transcendent.

[1310] Yeah.

[1311] And the whole reason we ever are in the recording studio is to hopefully have that happen.

[1312] That's all it is.

[1313] It doesn't happen a lot.

[1314] There'll be lesser versions that happen on a more regular basis, but those real transcendent moments, the whole process is towards that.

[1315] And it happened.

[1316] And I remember as soon as it finished, I said, wow, that was great.

[1317] What do you want to do next?

[1318] Because I didn't want to, like, break the spell.

[1319] Something good's happening.

[1320] What do you feel like playing next?

[1321] Like, let's see where this goes.

[1322] And they're like, okay, we need a minute.

[1323] They stepped outside.

[1324] And I didn't know this until I saw the film.

[1325] but they're like, I get this sense of like, what's with him?

[1326] What are we going to do?

[1327] Didn't he see what just happened?

[1328] I don't remember that.

[1329] That's not what I interpreted as.

[1330] Maybe I'm just too close.

[1331] I interpret it as, and this is the crack I try to narrow in on with both of them, is they do have a voice in their head that is relentlessly, am I, A, telling the truth, am I telling the whole truth?

[1332] Am I exploiting the truth?

[1333] I think they wrestle with that And I think they went outside And they knew they captured something That was so fucking transcendent And I think some voice in their head said I don't know that we deserve the result we just got And we need to talk about this I think they had hints of feeling fraudulent About how beautiful that was Wow, I don't believe that But it's interesting and great to interview them and find out Yes, I'm probably projecting I did interview them right around the time that came out And I didn't specifically ask that, but to me, that was that well -known imposter syndrome we all can experience from time to time.

[1334] And it's like, I think almost they felt something that they didn't know if they were worthy of having created.

[1335] And they needed to sit down and talk about if they had just lied to get that or not.

[1336] I wonder.

[1337] We could find out.

[1338] You and I both have the ability to find that out.

[1339] But that was my analysis.

[1340] Not that they were out there thinking you were some kind of a taskmaster.

[1341] They even know, or not even Test Master.

[1342] It was almost like, why aren't we popping a bottle of champagne?

[1343] Right.

[1344] Like, we did what we were supposed to do.

[1345] What do you mean what's next?

[1346] That was the 80 -yard pass in the end zone.

[1347] Why aren't we?

[1348] Why aren't we celebrating?

[1349] Yeah.

[1350] Where's the high -fives?

[1351] Or it could also be they had that because they were like, well, we can't do better than that.

[1352] And we didn't get the approval in the moment.

[1353] Stay tuned for more armchair.

[1354] expert if you dare this is like an opposite experience that just happened i'll keep names out of it we do a take in the studio an incredible performance of a song that's one of these transcendent performances and the guitar player did this incredible solo mind -blowing spontaneous in the moment and then finishes and then walks through the control room to go to the bathroom before we do the next thing and one of the engineers in the room said, wow, that was a great solo.

[1355] And the guitarist looked at him and said, I'd rather not have any input like that.

[1356] Like, no thank you.

[1357] Then you start thinking about that.

[1358] Yeah, I don't want to think about that.

[1359] He doesn't want to have to feel like he has to recreate it.

[1360] It just makes himself conscious.

[1361] Exactly.

[1362] Whereas before, I was just in the moment.

[1363] It's interesting.

[1364] It's a precarious little hard to get too sweet spot and it feels very vulnerable.

[1365] It's completely vulnerable because we don't control it.

[1366] The Avid Brothers played that same song right before that transcendent take and it was good, but it wasn't that.

[1367] And no one involved knows what was different.

[1368] Right.

[1369] No one.

[1370] Yeah.

[1371] No one's like, oh, well, we did this.

[1372] No. It just happened.

[1373] It's like capturing a seizure.

[1374] Yes.

[1375] You never know if you're going to be able to.

[1376] You never know.

[1377] Is that your first experience having watched.

[1378] How did what you saw on camera differ from your memory of the experience?

[1379] Nothing was different other than the conversation that I wasn't privy to.

[1380] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1381] I was on a show 20 years ago.

[1382] It's the thing that launched me and gave me the career overnight, punked.

[1383] I have a memory of what those were.

[1384] Once in a blue moon, I'm at out.

[1385] You were on the show punk?

[1386] I was on the first season.

[1387] That was my first thing.

[1388] And I have a memory of those.

[1389] And occasionally, I'll accidentally see it's on TV, some rerun.

[1390] And I can never get more than about 40 seconds because I'm like, ooh, this is fucking up my memory of it.

[1391] And I prefer my memory of it.

[1392] The product isn't what I remember.

[1393] And I actually want to safeguard the memory because it's a great memory for me. So I do wonder, like, if I were you, part of me would wish some of those crazy moments you've had were documented so you could revisit them because they were so beautiful.

[1394] But then I also imagine they might not be what you thought.

[1395] But I'm kind of reassured to hear it.

[1396] that that was when you watch that Aavit Brothers thing, it is representative of your feeling.

[1397] I usually don't really know anything.

[1398] Like, I'm very much in the present moment.

[1399] I can try to figure out how I would have felt back then.

[1400] Or if there was a key event that happened where I was asked about it then, and I remember answering a question then, then I might know because I remember that conversation.

[1401] Right.

[1402] So I know how I felt.

[1403] But other than that, I'm just here and now.

[1404] Your gift is kind of you're naturally on mushrooms.

[1405] Actually, I was working with Billy Corrigan at one point, and that was one of the things he said to me. He said, you hear music like I heard music after taking LSD, and I never took LSD.

[1406] I don't know anything about it.

[1407] I just have this relationship to it.

[1408] Also, funny talking about the stuff in the book.

[1409] It's things I've noticed.

[1410] I can't say it's mine.

[1411] You're like a reporter in that sense.

[1412] Yeah, I'm just saying this is how I see what I saw.

[1413] I don't even know if that's true.

[1414] It's all just, this is what I noticed.

[1415] How does it strike you?

[1416] That's what it is.

[1417] Yes.

[1418] You're so right.

[1419] As I'm reading it, as someone who endeavors on creative projects, it funnels through me, right?

[1420] Like, so one of your great prescriptive things, which I agree with, is when you are trying to solve an issue, you don't believe that sitting down and concentrating on that problem is going to yield a result.

[1421] You talk about holding that problem in your consciousness.

[1422] but then taking a walk.

[1423] And I read that and I was like, oh my God, I'm currently trying to crack some other thing and I'm kind of really strangleholding and trying to figure out what the format is and I forgot that I need to just go take a walk.

[1424] Or my thing is like if I get a foot massage at the $20 place, like an hour of there, all of a sudden, shit just starts getting downloaded into my head, right?

[1425] I recognize the fact that if I was struggling with a problem and then I gave up and went swimming, often the solution would appear while I was swimming.

[1426] when I was not thinking about it at all, just focusing on the swimming.

[1427] I let the problem go, but then it just arise.

[1428] It's like, oh, it seems like movement has something to do with it.

[1429] And then I would notice the same thing on walks, and I would notice even driving the car.

[1430] When you're driving, there's a part of you that's almost on autopilot.

[1431] If you drive enough, you might miss 10 minutes of the drive, even though you've been piloting the vehicle for 10 minutes, but you have no idea.

[1432] You're checked out.

[1433] But there's a part of you that's still doing it.

[1434] And for some reason, when that's engaged, you can get more creative.

[1435] A 100 % focus counterintuitively isn't the solution.

[1436] It's like somehow the sweet spot's like 80%.

[1437] I made an album with Neil Diamond and actually made two albums with Neil Diamond.

[1438] It's so many great early songs, Sweet Caroline, those amazing.

[1439] He was sort of Bruce Springsteen before there was Bruce Springsteen.

[1440] And the reason I feel like many people discard him is that he, He sings in a way that feels over genuine.

[1441] I've liked him when I was young, but privately.

[1442] I'm not trying to tell people I like him.

[1443] I think for me, it's the lack of danger in him that has him in a category he doesn't belong in.

[1444] The thing that struck me was that because he was such a good singer, the singing often sounded like a performance instead of somebody spilling their guts.

[1445] Yeah, Amy Winehouse.

[1446] Exactly.

[1447] And he writes his songs on the guitar, but he's not a good guitar player.

[1448] And I said, well, it'd be great if you could play on the album.

[1449] He's like, why would I play on the album when we can have the best guitar players in the world play?

[1450] I'd never play on my albums.

[1451] But when he was showing me the songs, he was playing guitar and singing them.

[1452] And when he was playing guitar and singing them, he had to focus on the guitar because he's not an automatic guitar player.

[1453] And the vocal got more real because he was just distracted enough to not be able to put all of his attention on, I'm going to do this great vocal performance.

[1454] Right.

[1455] And it became more believable.

[1456] he played guitar on the album and it wasn't because I wanted his guitar playing but because I wanted him to have something to do to free his voice to be completely natural and it's beautiful.

[1457] That's really interesting.

[1458] Okay, great.

[1459] So that is the element of your producing style that makes you like a performance coach, a psychologist, someone who can evaluate what the issue is or at least your personal issue, we'll call it.

[1460] I'd like to hear maybe of the more authentic version of him from the cockles.

[1461] So that's the, quote, problem to solve.

[1462] And then in this process, you're really good at figuring out clearly some mechanical things, some technique that can get the person there.

[1463] It could be that.

[1464] Or in this case, just noticing when he was playing me the songs in rehearsal, I'm paying attention to everything.

[1465] And that's your biggest marching order in the creative act, which is be aware of your surroundings.

[1466] Yeah, notice what's happening, noticing what you lean forward, where you want to look at closer, what you want to not look at, what you want to turn your head away from, what tastes good, what tastes bad, is it too hot or too cold?

[1467] Just all of these signals that we're getting all the time, pay attention.

[1468] I'm attracted to that face.

[1469] Why?

[1470] What is it?

[1471] Try to understand.

[1472] Sometimes we figure it out.

[1473] Sometimes we don't, but it's just this process of what's going on, trying to understand what's going on around us.

[1474] I don't like that.

[1475] What is it that I don't like about it?

[1476] Why?

[1477] Well, right.

[1478] I think you were saying, like, it's people's inclination to think that the solution is in their mind, and it's something that they're going to solve upstairs.

[1479] And in doing it, you're modeling, and you're basically modeling the future as opposed to looking around you.

[1480] And you say that the answer is generally floating around you in the present.

[1481] Yes.

[1482] That's counterintuitive.

[1483] Okay.

[1484] We like counterintuitive stuff.

[1485] Wait, I have a question because you asked Dax about his spirituality.

[1486] So your spirituality, what are some of the moments or the moment that made you connect?

[1487] I was very lucky and then I learned to meditate when I was 14.

[1488] And because of that, it just quieted down my mind in a way that I had this longstanding bedrock of being able to.

[1489] to get out of whatever my head is saying.

[1490] I can't always do it.

[1491] I have a tendency towards being able to do that just because I've been meditating so long.

[1492] I've had mystical experiences and wild ones.

[1493] I meditate as well.

[1494] I do TM.

[1495] TM was what I learned when I was 14.

[1496] Okay, yeah.

[1497] And I've done many others, but I always come back to TM maybe because it was the first one I learned.

[1498] Yeah.

[1499] I don't know the others, but I know TM is insanely simple.

[1500] That's what keeps me around.

[1501] My experience was I learned when I was 14, when I went to college, I stopped.

[1502] Then when I moved to California, after a couple of months, I started again.

[1503] And I remember before starting, feeling like I wanted to start, but there was a part of me, it's like it's not right yet.

[1504] I felt like I was making a very big decision to start doing it again.

[1505] Right.

[1506] Eventually, I was like, okay, I'm going to do it today.

[1507] And I did it.

[1508] And in the first meditation, after not doing it for years, it was like, oh, I know what this is.

[1509] And the fact that I did it when I did it for the amount of years I did it, it's a big part.

[1510] of who I am.

[1511] I wouldn't have known it had I not stopped and started again.

[1512] But in the first sitting, it was like, oh, this is in me. I agree.

[1513] I had the same hard time getting back into it because it's like, I know how this works.

[1514] So it's a daily thing.

[1515] Yeah.

[1516] And I'm afraid to commit.

[1517] I wish I were just approached you like, just do it today.

[1518] There's a part in the book that you would like where it talks about discipline and basically commitment.

[1519] It's like we think of discipline and freedom as opposites.

[1520] Uh -huh.

[1521] And they are not opposites.

[1522] Discipline brings you more freedom.

[1523] Yeah, that's a leap.

[1524] But I think you're right.

[1525] It seems like a leap.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] But because it's just the way we think.

[1528] It's like, I want to do what I want to do, and that's freedom.

[1529] But you've got to evaluate what is your definition of freedom.

[1530] If having a cluttered mind all day and not being able to ever get out of yourself is freedom, then okay, yes.

[1531] But that was one of the things like, well, I don't have time to meditate.

[1532] The thing you learn when you meditate is if you meditate for 20 minutes twice a day or even 30 minutes.

[1533] twice a day, you'll see that you have more time in your day than you did before.

[1534] It's illogical, but it's 100 % true.

[1535] Yes.

[1536] Because you'll work in a different manner.

[1537] You'll work with more clarity.

[1538] Absolutely.

[1539] Changes everything.

[1540] There's another illogical point in the book, which is if you have five mistakes, the work's not done, but maybe if you have eight, it is.

[1541] Oh, okay.

[1542] You know, because we think that the problem is the mistakes are the things we're trying to fix to get to the perfect version it's not about being perfect yeah perfection isn't what you're aiming for it's not you think it is though right well you think it is but that's it but once you understand that it's not you can relax you start to realize the best work the things that are imperfect is what gives it its personality it's what gives it its humanity it's what gives it its life otherwise a robot could do it and none of us like robots no nobody likes a robot well people aren't perfect by definition so it's unrelatable to be listening to something fully perfect or seeing something that's quote perfect because there's nothing to connect to in that because that's not real yeah we connect to the reality in things yeah if someone believes in something strongly that I don't believe in and I hear them talk about it, I relate to them, even though I disagree, but it's like I can see, they feel this, and it's real for them, and I relate to that feeling.

[1543] I know that feeling.

[1544] I know that feeling.

[1545] They care.

[1546] I love that somebody cares about anything.

[1547] Yeah.

[1548] I want to read a couple things out of the book that I love.

[1549] One is, in the wild, animals narrow their field of vision to survive.

[1550] A tight focus prevents distraction from critical needs.

[1551] food, shelter, predators, procreation.

[1552] For the artists, this reflexive action can be a hindrance.

[1553] Widening one's scope allows for more moments of interest to be noticed and collected, building a treasury of material to draw from later.

[1554] I think this is really profound because it's very tempting to move through life, just seeing those things that are going to bring us the food, the shelter, the love.

[1555] We miss the show.

[1556] Yes.

[1557] It's a cacophony of things.

[1558] happening around us that we block out and as you say you're just pulling from the outside world or you also use this metaphor for the vessel we're a vessel and what ends up in the vessels what we allow to pass through our filter and that's what you're drawing from to be an artist so it's like if you widen out the filter and let more things land in the vessel there's that much more to draw from and create from that's really beautiful what I like about it is without it being prescriptive do this do that it just starts your brain on the path of creativity it really does it just makes you start thinking like all right i could do that and i could take a walk and i think it will take a walk and i think i'm going to look at different stuff yes it's an invitation that's what the book is it's an invitation to participate in the creative universe that's going on all around us it's happening anyway the universe is creative and we can play our part in it or we can not it's really fun Yeah, participate.

[1559] Well, the other thing you talk about is, yeah, the rhythm of the universe I really respond to, because I'm in AA, I got to have a higher power.

[1560] It's so fucking hard for me. The only thing I've ever been able to latch on to is I'm sitting there imagining what I'm making these prayers to.

[1561] And I think, God damn, there's some great symmetry in the solar system.

[1562] Like, fuck, all nine of these planets are just spinning around.

[1563] They don't collide.

[1564] It's all held together.

[1565] And then, whoa, the whole solar system swirling around in this galaxy.

[1566] the Milky Way.

[1567] The fucking galaxy is a part of many galaxy clusters.

[1568] And I go, oh, there is this incredible symmetry and rhythm.

[1569] And I know when I'm stepping in or out of the rhythm.

[1570] If I'm really pay attention, I know when I'm walking upstream or when I'm going with the flow.

[1571] I do know on a cellular level when I'm not locking into the rhythm.

[1572] And have you worked on two different projects, one of which every step of the way, it's like a struggle and a fight and every step is hard.

[1573] And then there are other ones which seems like they almost happen by themselves.

[1574] There's something going on there.

[1575] Right.

[1576] Now, I'm not saying don't fight the fight.

[1577] I'm not saying that.

[1578] But pay attention which are the ones that the universe is like supporting you in?

[1579] Yeah.

[1580] The universe is on our side.

[1581] We're proof that the universe is on our side because we're sitting here.

[1582] That's true.

[1583] We're here.

[1584] If it didn't pick us, we wouldn't be here.

[1585] It would be being studied by another species in the archaeological record.

[1586] Exactly.

[1587] So we're here.

[1588] It's working for us.

[1589] Life is good.

[1590] We get to breathe.

[1591] We'll go to sleep tonight.

[1592] We'll wake up.

[1593] We'll see the sun tomorrow.

[1594] It's good.

[1595] Okay.

[1596] I have one last question.

[1597] You know, when I look at the list of people that you've worked with what pops out to me immediately is you've worked with some world -class addicts.

[1598] And I think a lot of artists, their addiction is conflated or interwoven with their art. They've been doing their art high, famously Jackie Gleason, never performed sober.

[1599] I didn't know that.

[1600] He had drank on stage, and then that worked for him on stage, so he carried it over to the honeymooners, smoking the bandit.

[1601] He's got an assistant, and he would go, Sam, Cheeseburger!

[1602] Cheeseburger meant glass of vodka, hamburger meant cigarette.

[1603] One of the two came over.

[1604] And there's all these famous addicts, right?

[1605] And then, of course, there's a sweet spot where it works for a lot of people.

[1606] And then, of course, the diminished returns start coming in.

[1607] So you undoubtedly have been in the situation a thousand times where you're trying to be creative and productive with someone in their addiction.

[1608] And how on earth have you handled that and how powerless that must have felt?

[1609] Talk about how to point someone in the right direction when there's a third party in the room.

[1610] It rarely has happened in the room.

[1611] Oh, really?

[1612] And I can remember one time where I was working with, I can say, it was Tom Morello.

[1613] was playing guitar on something and for whatever reason the performance never felt free like felt very uptight and you know I don't drink or do any drugs just never have with Tom I know he liked to go out and drink it was one of the things I liked to do and it was the only time I ever said you know maybe you should have a few drinks also I actually recommended him drinking to see if we could get a good solo Did it work?

[1614] It did but I would never recommend it I also know that he's not like an alcoholic haul.

[1615] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1616] He just needed to loosen up in this moment.

[1617] You wanted to get him in that, for the greater good.

[1618] That sweet spot where you're better at pool, not worse.

[1619] I'll drink for the greater good anyway.

[1620] Yeah.

[1621] There's this really, everyone knows who drinks.

[1622] There's a sweet spot in plain pool where two beers makes you better at pool and then four and beyond makes you worse.

[1623] Yeah.

[1624] Yeah, and anyone who's hung out in bars knows this phenomenon.

[1625] I have a feeling the beer is the substitute for the meditation because that's all it is.

[1626] You're trying to quiet down your mind and there's a point where you're quieting down your mind and there's a point where you're obliterating your mind and when you're obliterated you can't do the work but there's a spot where you've quieted down the demons but that's what meditation is yeah it's like all the drugs are just really shortcuts to get closer to feeling like enlightenment yeah i think the other thing you would have to have you personally given your resume you would have to also have an incredible ability to not try what's worked in the past because these people are so individual.

[1627] It's so tempting for all of us that when we've had success with a method we kind of get married to the method and I think you of all people because all these elements are coming in they're so fucking different no two singers are going to need to sing.

[1628] I don't have a method and I'm interested in learning as many methods as I can.

[1629] I'm curious.

[1630] I want to see what can work.

[1631] I can't.

[1632] It kind of all just goes back the confidence.

[1633] Yeah, it takes so much confidence to enter embracing your ignorance and not knowing how you're going to figure this out.

[1634] Yeah.

[1635] But I think that's where the good stuff comes from.

[1636] It's that beginner's mind, you know, the Ramones.

[1637] You said they were trying to be the Bay City Rollers or something.

[1638] And they were innovative through ignorance, innovation through ignorance.

[1639] Right.

[1640] Do you ever feel the pressure with your, with a band, they know your history, they've come to you, Do you ever start getting self -conscious that, oh, they're waiting for my magic thing to happen?

[1641] I'm always apprehensive before a project starts, not even based on the band's expectation or the artist's expectations, just because I know we're going in and I have no idea what's going to happen.

[1642] And it's scary.

[1643] It's always scary because I also want it to be great.

[1644] Yeah.

[1645] And I know we're not going to be done until it's great, and I have no idea what we're going to do.

[1646] It always starts like that.

[1647] So it's always terrifying.

[1648] And then you work, and then something good happens, and then sometimes something good happens that can give you a potential picture of what the whole good thing could be.

[1649] I still wouldn't say, oh, we crack the code and this is what we're going to do, no. But, oh, this could be what we do.

[1650] So that feels good.

[1651] That feels better than what are we going to do?

[1652] And then until something even better presents itself.

[1653] Yeah, either something better or more.

[1654] War of the Good Thing presents itself.

[1655] Even Ricardo, when I asked him, and on the grid before you start, it's, I'm terrified.

[1656] Everything's terrifying.

[1657] But then the second the activity starts, none of that exists.

[1658] It never exists once the activity starts.

[1659] And I guess my aspiration is just to fast forward to doing the thing.

[1660] When I do the thing, I'm actually never scared.

[1661] I'm in the thing, and I enjoy it.

[1662] Yeah, it's called anticipatory anxiety.

[1663] I suffer from it.

[1664] Yeah, that's reassuring.

[1665] Oh, absolutely.

[1666] I think if you care about the thing you're making and you don't know how it's going to go, it seems pretty natural.

[1667] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1668] Maybe it's a good sign.

[1669] Yeah.

[1670] How about when you're coming back to do it with people you already have the rhythm with?

[1671] Always better.

[1672] It's still not gone.

[1673] Yeah.

[1674] But at least it's not completely unknown.

[1675] Right.

[1676] And some people you get with and you feel safe.

[1677] There's certain people that I'm like, oh, I know when I'm with them, I'm going to feel indestructible.

[1678] Yes, yes.

[1679] They give me that.

[1680] Rick Rubin, the creative act, a way of being very cool.

[1681] book and also i'll just add what you say at the beginning of the book which i think is relevant because you might think oh i don't pain i don't do this i know that to create is to bring something into existence that wasn't there before it could be a conversation the solution to a problem a note to a friend the rearrangement of furniture in a room a new route home to avoid a traffic jam you're engaged at all times you're entering the unknown and you're executing yeah we're creative beings in a creative universe and we can embrace that it's beautiful yes and that's why as you say as the book revealed itself to you you realize it's as much just about a book about being how to be on this planet it turned out that way i didn't know that going in yeah well rick this has been a blast i really enjoyed meeting you uh my pleasure great luck with everything and i look forward to talking to you again we will do it okay and now my favorite part of the show the fact -checked Check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1682] Okay, let's get right to the most important thing in the world.

[1683] Yes.

[1684] Which is Rob, our in -house resident foodie, whose life revolves around food.

[1685] Yes.

[1686] Who, curiously, for me, I just have done a lot of like armchair psychological analysis.

[1687] Psychological analysis.

[1688] He never talks about French laundry.

[1689] So my assumption was, it's too old -fashioned for him.

[1690] He's more cutting -edge, punk rock, who's breaking the...

[1691] paradigm.

[1692] That's accurate.

[1693] I'm typically more of that.

[1694] Right.

[1695] Like new.

[1696] Yeah, this is old fashion.

[1697] This is too traditional.

[1698] Although they have a lot of the same elements, I realize.

[1699] What I like about contemporary food is kind of all the different layers and techniques and flavor profiles.

[1700] And even though French laundry has been around for 45 years, they...

[1701] Oh, they're nailing it.

[1702] They're keeping it fresh.

[1703] Yeah, they clearly are part of...

[1704] of the reason why that's an innovative way to cook.

[1705] I think that's the thing is like, it needs to be recognized that they kind of started at all.

[1706] Yeah.

[1707] Thomas Keller.

[1708] Yeah, T. Keller.

[1709] I didn't know that.

[1710] But then you said it and I acted like how you buy heart.

[1711] And then you acted like you gave him a nickname in fact.

[1712] T -cales.

[1713] You knew him so well.

[1714] So it was with a little bit of hesitation that my gift to you for Christmas was a trip to French laundry, which we already learned.

[1715] I went through social media.

[1716] I took every angle.

[1717] finally got there.

[1718] And then I thought, I don't even know if he wants to go to French laundry.

[1719] No, it was great.

[1720] It was incredible.

[1721] Okay.

[1722] So, first of all, there's a whole, you build a whole trip around it.

[1723] Mm -hmm.

[1724] What day do you leave?

[1725] Sunday.

[1726] For a Friday reservation?

[1727] For a Thursday night reservation.

[1728] Thursday night reservation.

[1729] But we tacked on a few days in San Francisco because it was timed with Calvin's spring break.

[1730] Right.

[1731] And you did an Airbnb in San Francisco?

[1732] Well, we went to Paso -roblis first.

[1733] Yeah, which explain that decision to me. It was halfway.

[1734] I wanted to take the drive up the coast.

[1735] We've got a one -year -old, so a one -o -one.

[1736] Eight -hour drive with a kid doesn't sound the best, so we decided to break it up into two days.

[1737] Right.

[1738] First day, though, so we cut in by, like, Hurst Castle to go up the one.

[1739] Uh -huh.

[1740] Drove about an hour, and then they had it shut off.

[1741] Which was maybe a blessing, Rob.

[1742] Have you ever done the one ride from San Simi?

[1743] I've done it a bunch, yeah.

[1744] It's like a seven -hour drive to Santa Cruz.

[1745] It's so windy.

[1746] But it's beautiful.

[1747] Oh, my God.

[1748] That's the prettiest drive you can take in America.

[1749] Well, and Calvin had thrown up three times by that point.

[1750] Yeah, yeah.

[1751] You need a new car.

[1752] Well, I rented...

[1753] No. Yes, he has a Tesla.

[1754] No, he rented a G -Wagon.

[1755] I rented a G -Wagon for it.

[1756] I was so blown away.

[1757] I was so proud of Robbie.

[1758] Wow, Rob.

[1759] Yes, he sent me a picture.

[1760] And it was a fucking AMG, right?

[1761] Yeah, well, they had it.

[1762] They convinced me. I had rented just a SUV.

[1763] And then they were like, do you want to take this?

[1764] Oh, my God.

[1765] And then Calvin threw up in it three times.

[1766] That's like a $200 ,000 car So we made him stop watching the iPad And he stopped He stopped from that point Yeah, you can't No, you can't be watching Mario Kart or whatever they watch He's really into Scooby -Doo right now Let's just spend two seconds on that G -Wagon Because that's not something you would have been on your radar, right?

[1767] No, no But it's undeniable?

[1768] Yeah, it was black Even the guy at Enterprise is like, they don't even let me drive this.

[1769] Right?

[1770] I can't believe.

[1771] So why'd they offer it?

[1772] What enterprise had it?

[1773] This one right here?

[1774] No. It's like half exotic.

[1775] It is.

[1776] I want to rent one.

[1777] And then they called me, I think because of that, they called me like halfway through the trip telling me they had like a Lamborghini.

[1778] Oh, sure, the SUV.

[1779] Yeah, and they want to know if I wanted to switch out for that.

[1780] Oh, my God.

[1781] It's like a tank.

[1782] It's very boxy and tall.

[1783] You're up really?

[1784] It drives really smooth It's really fast It's so fast But the sound is awesome It has side pipes And it kind of It kind of feels like you're driving A U -Haul truck Just because you're so high up In the windshields like Straight up and down Straight up and down There's no rake to it It's a military vehicle originally Our neighbor, your direct neighbor He has a fucking pimp white one Not only does he have a G -Wing He's got the V12 G -G wagon That one's like Probably pushing 300 ,000 I can ask if I can borrow it You should ask them You can borrow mine I have an AMG too You can borrow mine We can switch Okay so GWagon up By the way tactically I don't know if I agree with you Because I've driven up to Oregon Six times with the kids And I Breaking it up No This is two bad days Instead of one bad day Because they actually get lulled After about six hours of driving They kind of go into a catatonic state Well Natalie also hates driving Oh okay great So the combined three people She sat on the back with them They were miserable the whole time Why didn't she sit in the front?

[1785] You were in heaven driving at G -Wagon.

[1786] No, Vincent, just distracting him.

[1787] I had my AirPods on listening to, like, our episodes.

[1788] Couldn't even hear them back there.

[1789] Oh, you were in heaven.

[1790] Okay, so then you get San Francisco.

[1791] You got an Airbnb, and that's lovely or no. Is that a miss or?

[1792] Not great.

[1793] It's supposed to be a three -bedroom.

[1794] This is a ding, ding, ding for tomorrow's Armchair Anonymous.

[1795] Oh, wait?

[1796] Nope.

[1797] Nope.

[1798] Yeah, yeah.

[1799] No, that's right.

[1800] No, no, it's Christless.

[1801] Yeah.

[1802] Two weeks.

[1803] Two weeks from...

[1804] We could have had you on there, but too late.

[1805] A week from tomorrow's, I'm sure anonymous.

[1806] Okay, go on.

[1807] We get in, and it's supposed to be a three -bedroom.

[1808] We can only find two bedrooms.

[1809] Mm, missing bedroom.

[1810] And then there's, like, a locked door that you have to, like, go around to get into the garage, and then there's some weird suite in the basement.

[1811] Smell like wet dog.

[1812] Yeah, dog house.

[1813] They, I think, rent them separately, but we called them.

[1814] We had rented a three -bedroom, so he'll just locate the key to unlock the doors.

[1815] But then no one ever slept in there, I imagine.

[1816] We slept down there.

[1817] Oh, yeah.

[1818] Yeah, the boys needed their own rooms.

[1819] Oh, my God.

[1820] Okay.

[1821] Why do the boys need their own room?

[1822] Why do they need to go on this trip?

[1823] Oh.

[1824] Good question, right?

[1825] Well, no one's going to watch it.

[1826] Well, Vincent's still breastfeeding.

[1827] Oh.

[1828] But can she pump?

[1829] And for a week Not dump Pump and save Pump and save Pump and go But a week is long I guess I mean we could have gone Probably Just for the I don't know That she's ready To leave Vincent overnight yet either Now what you could have done obviously Is just been with the kids All week for spring break And then left on Thursday morning And driven up And then stay at the romantic hotel Two days there Have your French laundry Come home Yeah it wasn't a very relaxing vacation Of course not You were your kids So someone said You need to consult me when you make these trips.

[1830] Yeah, this should have been workshop.

[1831] Some wise parents said to me early on, and it's the truest statement, when you're a parent going on vacation, is just parenting in a different setting.

[1832] Yeah, you tell yourself you're going to be on vacation, but you're not.

[1833] Yeah, you have the expectation that it's going to be relaxing.

[1834] Yes, no. And then it's, I would rather be working than some of it.

[1835] Can I make an exception?

[1836] Yeah.

[1837] I think, because I don't have kids, so you can tell me if I'm wrong.

[1838] But I think that's why the pod trips are so fun.

[1839] Thousand percent.

[1840] Because there is less parenting.

[1841] Right.

[1842] So someone gave me that advice, which is true.

[1843] Because it's mostly, the advice isn't, don't do it.

[1844] It's just have appropriate expectations.

[1845] Someone in AA said it to me. Yeah.

[1846] But you got to tell yourself, like, you're going to go parent in a different location.

[1847] But the hack, if you're a new parent, is you got to have friends with the same age kids.

[1848] and then that liberates your whole life.

[1849] We did that for Christmas, and that was much better.

[1850] You can do shit.

[1851] Still not a huge break because they're too little ones.

[1852] Yeah, yeah.

[1853] At least then you have someone commiserate.

[1854] And then it's so good that then you're on the other, so where we're at with it.

[1855] Right.

[1856] You've flipped the script.

[1857] It's like, we got to have non -pod vacations or we're going to have no family memories.

[1858] Because also it's so attractive that you can end up doing every vacation that way.

[1859] And then you're like, I don't know, I've been on six vacations.

[1860] I didn't see my kids at any of them.

[1861] Right.

[1862] And then you feel shitty about that.

[1863] Well, the narrative version's great.

[1864] Like, looking back on that trip, we had a lot of great memories.

[1865] Yes, and you'll forget all the...

[1866] Yeah, but it was slightly miserable also.

[1867] Sure, sure.

[1868] For some of it.

[1869] Okay.

[1870] Now French Laundry.

[1871] Yes.

[1872] The meat event.

[1873] And...

[1874] Our nanny, our babysitter bailed last minute.

[1875] No. So we had to find a nanny service.

[1876] Well, you're in a good area for that.

[1877] Yeah.

[1878] And there's a concierge at the hotel you got us.

[1879] Yeah.

[1880] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1881] It was a nice spot.

[1882] Yeah, it was really nice.

[1883] Yeah.

[1884] And that was for Thursday night.

[1885] Thursday and Friday night.

[1886] And we got massages on.

[1887] Ooh.

[1888] Bois -lo -y -lo -o -wing -wing -wing -wing -wing.

[1889] What kind?

[1890] Man -woman.

[1891] Or erotic.

[1892] Woman -woman or what?

[1893] Or erotic.

[1894] But if they told you when you checked in like, here's all it works.

[1895] You can request a man or a woman or erotic.

[1896] Request erotic.

[1897] They enter with a big face mask on.

[1898] So you don't know if it's male or female That's not erotic That's scary In like an x -ray vest So you can't tell what their body No, none of that's a lot They're wearing a hazmat suit In a big scary Halloween mask But it'll be erotic That's the upside Okay anyways French laundry So you sit down You said you like the environment Yes, it was great in a house And we got seated by a fire And then you learn really quickly When you sit there They only serve stuff They're growing across the street Like there's nothing They don't go shopping for anything.

[1899] And it's not snobby.

[1900] Mm -mm.

[1901] Like, some of them, like the higher -end ones are a little snooty.

[1902] Yeah, I've been to a few snooties.

[1903] Yeah, everyone was very friendly, very nice.

[1904] Like, general manager that you were emailing with was there.

[1905] He came over to talk to us for a while.

[1906] Wonderful.

[1907] He was so helpful.

[1908] Michael, what a hero.

[1909] He saved a day.

[1910] Yes, okay.

[1911] And then how many courses?

[1912] It was like 15.

[1913] Well, it was like 15 because the dessert was like six.

[1914] Yeah.

[1915] It was just like, here's, Here's a shitload of desserts.

[1916] Right.

[1917] In French laundry, there's no, they change the menu every day or every other day.

[1918] It's all about what's seasonal, which is really fun because you can go there and have a different experience every time.

[1919] But they have some staples.

[1920] One of them being diamonds and pearls.

[1921] The oysters and pearls.

[1922] Right.

[1923] Which I hate both those items.

[1924] Yeah.

[1925] Individually.

[1926] And I thought it was so delicious.

[1927] It was crazy.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] That was my favorite dish.

[1930] Caviar with oysters and this like creamy, crazy broth.

[1931] Yeah.

[1932] And is that the one where they give you the?

[1933] mother -a -pearl spoon to eat it with?

[1934] Yeah.

[1935] Yeah, yeah.

[1936] But so, but you still shoot the oyster?

[1937] No, no. It's just like in the sauce.

[1938] Oh, got it.

[1939] It's outrageous, and I hate both those ingredients.

[1940] I like both.

[1941] Did you get the truffle option?

[1942] I did the mac and the mac and cheese truffle.

[1943] And did the guy come out with a little case and open up the case?

[1944] And then just like, shaved it on.

[1945] Buried the mac and cheese and truffle.

[1946] And did you ask them how much those truffles were?

[1947] Because I did.

[1948] I did not.

[1949] like for 600 bucks probably oh no he was holding one that was $2 ,800 $8 ,800 yes and there was like five of them in there and then the other thing that they always have I think is donuts and coffee is that what they donuts and coffee at the end yeah oh fun and they're the yumiest cinnamon donut balls yeah little like bignets so do you give it a 10 out of 10 yeah I would give it a 10 of 10 and then they bring you back into the kitchen afternoon oh I like that part yeah it's all the French style except they were clothing because it was Did they have any March?

[1950] They gave us, I mean, you get, like, the menu.

[1951] They gave us shortbread cookies and chocolate.

[1952] No, no tea.

[1953] And did they have Starbucks mugs in there that said Starbucks French lottery?

[1954] Oh, my God.

[1955] I wouldn't have, I would have been, I wouldn't have been able to get it until I went.

[1956] Right, right.

[1957] But you could covet it.

[1958] Yeah.

[1959] You could have them bring out.

[1960] I do.

[1961] I already do.

[1962] You already want it.

[1963] Oh, when we were there, there was a man. by himself eating next to us, and I started chatting with him.

[1964] This was the sweetest thing I had ever really encountered.

[1965] I said, have you been here before?

[1966] And he said, oh, yeah, yeah.

[1967] My wife and I used to come here on our anniversary every year.

[1968] It was our big trip every year.

[1969] And since she's passed, I still come on our anniversary.

[1970] Yeah, by himself.

[1971] He was there when I was there.

[1972] No. No. Oh, I was like, he's a fraud.

[1973] Yeah, he's got two anniversaries because ours was right before Christmas.

[1974] He's so many wives.

[1975] It's a once -in -a -lifetime experience.

[1976] It's three hours.

[1977] You're way too full.

[1978] I mean, I didn't finish all my desserts.

[1979] Yeah, that's a lot.

[1980] By the end, I felt like that in Spain.

[1981] Like, I can't.

[1982] How much?

[1983] Like, you're, it's a struggle.

[1984] You have to pace yourself.

[1985] Yeah, it's a big struggle, but you just do it.

[1986] Calli had to take a walk in the middle of one.

[1987] Oh, wow.

[1988] Stretch out a little bit.

[1989] Get her blood moving.

[1990] Well, what's great about that experience, too, is that, as you said, there's 27 courses.

[1991] And after each one, I'm mad.

[1992] I can't have more of that dish, just had, which is kind of the dream.

[1993] Yeah.

[1994] I wanted more of every single one, and I got too full.

[1995] Well, we had, because I was also trying Natalie's.

[1996] So we were.

[1997] Seven courses, it says.

[1998] Seven things I know before having seven courses at the French laundry.

[1999] You'd think, you guys just made it sound like, wait.

[2000] Well, hold on.

[2001] He's counting his menu.

[2002] There's 15.

[2003] Including each individual dessert?

[2004] That's individual dessert.

[2005] Okay.

[2006] But they bring out as one course.

[2007] Right.

[2008] Okay.

[2009] And there was like a moose -boosh.

[2010] that wasn't listed here.

[2011] And there was like...

[2012] Chocolates that they had at the very end, too.

[2013] They let you pick out any ones that you wanted.

[2014] Yeah, nice.

[2015] Wow.

[2016] Okay.

[2017] Yeah, it's like Disneyland of eating, I think.

[2018] It's like you should go once in your life as you can.

[2019] I mean, that's all these Michelin's, not all, but many of the multiple Michelin Star restaurants are like that.

[2020] How many do they have?

[2021] They have three, which is the most you can have.

[2022] Really?

[2023] How many restaurants in the world have three?

[2024] Let's see.

[2025] That's kind of a build -it -and -a -will -come scenario because they're just up in the middle.

[2026] 13 U .S. restaurants.

[2027] Have three Michelin Stars.

[2028] 13.

[2029] In the U .S. Can we go to all of them?

[2030] Yeah, we should make that a thing.

[2031] Okay, let me read them all.

[2032] Okay.

[2033] Addison in San Diego.

[2034] What?

[2035] Let's local.

[2036] Let's go there.

[2037] There's a lot in San Francisco.

[2038] Okay, Addison, San Diego, venue, Kintz, Atelier Cren.

[2039] Atelier, ding, ding, ding, ding, the word of 2023.

[2040] French laundry, single thread.

[2041] Ooh, what's that?

[2042] That's in Helzburg.

[2043] In Austria?

[2044] No, USA.

[2045] Helzburg?

[2046] Oh, my gosh.

[2047] Also, California?

[2048] Okay.

[2049] Sounds like six or seven of them are here.

[2050] Right.

[2051] Alinea, the Inn at Little Washington.

[2052] That's Washington.

[2053] State or D .C.?

[2054] state Washington Virginia it says oh my god guys I don't like these because it just says the country Washington USA that's confusing okay chefs table at Brooklyn Fair that's New York obviously 11 Madison Park you knew that one yep I knew that one per se okay I didn't know Masa oh that I've heard of that one recently that's supposed to be good really good and La Bernardine also New York oh my god so either New York or California is where you got to be okay let's do or Washington Oregon Washington, Chicago, or Heldsburg, Kentucky.

[2055] I haven't been to any of these.

[2056] I've only been to one.

[2057] What am I doing with my life?

[2058] But let's look up how many have three in the world.

[2059] How many restaurants have three?

[2060] 142.

[2061] 142.

[2062] France and Monaco have 31.

[2063] Japan has 21.

[2064] United States has 14.

[2065] Oh, wow, we're getting blown away.

[2066] Spain is 13.

[2067] Do you think they just weren't sniffing around here?

[2068] We just didn't have it.

[2069] Probably we just didn't have it.

[2070] What?

[2071] That maybe the Michelin folks weren't sniffing around here, though, because Michelin Tires is a European company.

[2072] They know that Americans are stupid.

[2073] 18 countries.

[2074] In Spain, there's two.

[2075] Akalari, I've been there.

[2076] I have been to three.

[2077] Oh, wow.

[2078] Well, you're the leader now.

[2079] Well, no, because I haven't been to any in the U .S. He's been to Alinia and French Laundry.

[2080] Two.

[2081] Do you have any others?

[2082] Not out of the U .S. So he's two out of, I'm one out of whatever you said, 54.

[2083] You're three out of 54.

[2084] You're the leader.

[2085] No, out of 142.

[2086] Out of 142.

[2087] That's about 2 .8%.

[2088] I'm going to sketch in London when I'm in London with my family.

[2089] Ooh, there's two more in London.

[2090] Maybe I'll do all of them.

[2091] Okay.

[2092] Get them all done.

[2093] So if there's 142, we could do 142 episodes.

[2094] Oh, podcast?

[2095] Yeah, side project.

[2096] Yeah.

[2097] And then somehow they have to give us these meals.

[2098] Well, should we set up an email for Michelin Star?

[2099] If they want to invite us?

[2100] Yeah, yeah.

[2101] Absolutely.

[2102] There's one in Taiwan.

[2103] Oh, my gosh.

[2104] I'll go.

[2105] I'll buy a semiconductor and I'll have a Michelin Star meal.

[2106] We could, I think we'll start small.

[2107] we'll start with a quick trip to San Diego That one's 2022 It was awarded it so it's a new one Oh great what's the name of that one Addison Addison so please invite us and pay for our meal And then if we don't like it We'll pretend we didn't go there And if we loved it then we'll talk about it Chef William Bradley Or in New York Eric repair Thomas Keller Maybe we should just start with trying to get into All of Thomas Keller We already have a foot in the door.

[2108] It's settled.

[2109] We have a new show.

[2110] People love listening to eating.

[2111] We should call it misophonia.

[2112] Yes, yes.

[2113] We'll call it misophonia.

[2114] Michelin misophonia.

[2115] I mean, we have the best conversations over dinner.

[2116] But what if the food's so good, it's distracting?

[2117] And like, we have to focus.

[2118] Yeah, it'll be hard.

[2119] That will be what's interesting.

[2120] We love a challenge.

[2121] Wow, well, I'm glad that it was so far.

[2122] fun.

[2123] Me too.

[2124] Me too.

[2125] Thank you again.

[2126] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2127] It makes me so happy that you enjoyed it.

[2128] I was afraid it was too old -fashioned for you.

[2129] No, no. Classics are classics for a reason.

[2130] They are for a reason.

[2131] It's come to find out.

[2132] Ding, ding, ding.

[2133] Yeah.

[2134] AMG.

[2135] Yes.

[2136] I had a whole sitch this weekend.

[2137] Oh, you had a textbook, Monica story for everyone.

[2138] No. No, I need my own theme song.

[2139] Okay.

[2140] Do you think it's even possible to create your own?

[2141] Like, if you right now are going to make a theme song for me. Yeah, that's totally original.

[2142] But it has to be so unappealing that no one would have thought.

[2143] So it goes, bra, bra.

[2144] It sounds like the robot made that.

[2145] Yes, he's got a keyboard for Christmas.

[2146] He's got a Cassio keyboard.

[2147] He thinks he's a DJ now.

[2148] Oh, my God, because real boys are DJs.

[2149] Okay, so I went to my witch.

[2150] Yes.

[2151] And everything was fine when I drove there.

[2152] Yeah.

[2153] Things are great.

[2154] I didn't ask that question because I didn't want to try to establish blame.

[2155] But I was wondering if you had run over a screw or if you had grabbed a curb and blew out the sidewalk.

[2156] Right.

[2157] Neither.

[2158] Oh.

[2159] That's why it's confusing.

[2160] So everything's fine.

[2161] I park.

[2162] Everything's fine.

[2163] Go in Go see my witch Come out I get in the car Immediately it's like Check tire pressure It's at 12 Okay I was like what the hell So I pulled over I'm in Beverly Hills As I always am now And there's a There's a big I'll show you a picture Oh there's a picture Yeah I took a pick Because of course at first I thought Oh it was just a picture Of Beverly Hills I was like Somebody slashed my tire That's what I thought Oh my God you thought someone slashed your tire because it look at it like it's weird also let me send it to you up too it didn't come oh here we go except okay now yeah you hit a curb no i didn't the guy the when i went to the you're making me cut to the end but he said this has been happening a lot in the city and it's the potholes and he said that's what it was oh okay yeah i would have i hit it's a rupture is what i'm saying okay yeah something was hit and it split yeah um um i'm I hit curbs all the time, so I have no problem saying that.

[2164] Admitting that.

[2165] Yes, but I didn't.

[2166] God, there was some great meme on Women's National Women's Day.

[2167] It was so funny.

[2168] I can't remember what it was paired with, but it was just a picture of the most scuffed up wheel you ever saw.

[2169] It sounds like happy International Women's Day.

[2170] Oh, my God.

[2171] It's so good.

[2172] Oh, so good.

[2173] So first I called my dad.

[2174] Me or your other dad?

[2175] Because you called me. I called my dad first.

[2176] Okay, he got the first call.

[2177] Yes, and I asked him if I had AAA still.

[2178] Because he handles the AAA.

[2179] That's right.

[2180] For the family.

[2181] Right.

[2182] He's got a family policy.

[2183] Yes.

[2184] Yeah.

[2185] And he said, yes, you do.

[2186] And he said, okay, so it's probably the same number as this old one I have.

[2187] Great.

[2188] He said, yeah.

[2189] And then he, you know, but then he's asking me all these questions.

[2190] And I don't really have time to talk to him.

[2191] You got enough on your plate.

[2192] Yeah.

[2193] He got a flat tire.

[2194] He was like, is there a spare?

[2195] I said, I don't think so.

[2196] And he was like, yeah, some of the new cars don't have them.

[2197] And I was like, well, where would it be?

[2198] And then he was like in the trunk.

[2199] So then I'm, my trunk is full of shit if anyone can remember.

[2200] So then I'm like picking up all this shit looking at it.

[2201] There is something under there, but there's no tire.

[2202] Okay.

[2203] I didn't even put you through that, because I'm like, you're not going to put the spare on.

[2204] But I thought maybe AAA, and then I could at least get it back home.

[2205] Right.

[2206] Because I didn't want to be stuck in Beverly Hills, but there was no tire on there.

[2207] Right.

[2208] It probably has run flats.

[2209] It does.

[2210] Yeah, it does.

[2211] So you could have driven.

[2212] All the way home?

[2213] Technically, you probably could have, but you're not supposed to go over 30.

[2214] I forget what that.

[2215] You'd have to look, but you have to keep the speed low.

[2216] It's going to handle completely different.

[2217] Yeah.

[2218] And there is a chance then it comes a separate.

[2219] from the rim and now you fucking ruin your rim and now you've got a $1 ,500 thing you've got to put on in addition to the tire.

[2220] Right.

[2221] Okay.

[2222] So, and then my dad's like, so what else is going on?

[2223] I'm like, I can't talk.

[2224] Got a three alarm fire on your hand.

[2225] Yeah, I was like, I'll, I got to go.

[2226] And then I just said, bye hurriedly and got off.

[2227] And I feel really bad because he was saying, I love you.

[2228] Oh, and I accidentally hung up in the middle.

[2229] But it was an accident.

[2230] Yeah.

[2231] Yeah, but that doesn't come easy for him.

[2232] No, he always says that at the end.

[2233] He didn't say it like, Monica, I love you.

[2234] I love you so much.

[2235] No, he didn't.

[2236] I'm so proud of you for this flat.

[2237] It was part of the sign -off.

[2238] Right, okay.

[2239] But I still felt guilty as it was hanging and I could hear it.

[2240] I didn't have time to call him back.

[2241] Right.

[2242] Then, of course, I was like, well, what if something happens to him and then?

[2243] Right.

[2244] So.

[2245] It's sent you spinning.

[2246] Yeah.

[2247] So then I had to call AAA.

[2248] They, I'm waiting.

[2249] It is hot.

[2250] Thank God.

[2251] Yeah, yeah.

[2252] You know, I was trying to balance being annoyed.

[2253] Gratitude.

[2254] Yes, and gratitude.

[2255] I was like, could be much worse because there was this bad accident in front of my apartment the day before.

[2256] A car rolled.

[2257] Oh, boy.

[2258] It was on its side.

[2259] They were so many fire trucks and, like, they were using, like, the crane and stuff.

[2260] Yeah, it was scary.

[2261] So I kept thinking, well, that didn't happen today.

[2262] So that's good.

[2263] The guy comes, he says, you're going to need to call the tire shops.

[2264] And I said, okay, there's a midas right down the street.

[2265] And he said, that's not a tire shop.

[2266] That's my flores, yeah.

[2267] And I said, are you sure?

[2268] He was like, yeah.

[2269] Like, oh, God, okay.

[2270] So then he was really helpful.

[2271] Oh, good.

[2272] And he was like, tried this place.

[2273] And then I tried a few places.

[2274] Oh, I forgot.

[2275] Before that, I called you.

[2276] Yep.

[2277] After I talked to my dad, I thought, my dad is not helping.

[2278] He's causing harm.

[2279] Mm -hmm.

[2280] But you, I needed to know, are these tired?

[2281] Like, okay, so after I talk to you, what I regretted not saying to you, and now it sounds like it has occurred to you.

[2282] Yeah.

[2283] I should have told you, as long as they have the size, don't worry about matching the brand.

[2284] That's what I was wondering.

[2285] Because you really run into an issue when you start calling these tire places.

[2286] They have the exact Michelin TC3 sport water model, blah, blah, blah.

[2287] But you just really need the size and then the same speed rating is all you really need.

[2288] See, yeah.

[2289] So that's what I was like once you, this occurred to me after you told me none of the tire shops you called had the tire.

[2290] And I was like, well, they had that size.

[2291] It's not a rare size.

[2292] Yeah.

[2293] But they didn't probably have the exact tire.

[2294] But that, yeah.

[2295] Okay.

[2296] So both of my dad's failed me that day.

[2297] Yep.

[2298] Okay.

[2299] It didn't occur to me to say that.

[2300] I wouldn't have thought that the tire shops would have made a big deal.

[2301] I thought they would be just trying to sell you whatever they carry.

[2302] Well, they were, but that's why I, that was my fear, because this is a fancy fucking car.

[2303] I don't know anything about it.

[2304] Probably need a specific tire.

[2305] It's like you need this specific gas.

[2306] Like, that's sort of what I was thinking.

[2307] Anyway, you said, I said, should I take it to the dealer or is that a big waste of money?

[2308] You said, yes, it is probably a waste of money.

[2309] But not that much.

[2310] But not that much.

[2311] They can only charge you so much for a tire.

[2312] Right.

[2313] Yeah.

[2314] And so, whatever.

[2315] If it were their, their fucking Mercedes -Benz rotor's.

[2316] I'd go, no. Well, that's probably what I got.

[2317] No, but the tire is not even made by them.

[2318] Oh, okay.

[2319] Right.

[2320] So I don't know what they could mark it up, but at any rate.

[2321] So, yeah.

[2322] Okay, so then the guy, the AAA guy helped me get the size of the tire.

[2323] And then I called, I said, do you have this size Continental?

[2324] No one had Continental.

[2325] Of course not, yeah.

[2326] But someone said, I have Pirelli.

[2327] Great tires.

[2328] And I said, no, bye.

[2329] Continental or bus?

[2330] My dad said I had to be continental.

[2331] No, yeah, that was, I should have thought that.

[2332] So after three tire shops, I said, fuck it.

[2333] We got to just go to the dealership.

[2334] Well, luckily you were in.

[2335] Beverly Hills, yes.

[2336] So they drove me to the dealership, and I waited and waited and waited.

[2337] And finally, this guy, quote, did me a favor.

[2338] He said many times he was going to be my hero.

[2339] I'm going to be your hero.

[2340] And, like, basically, like, get me to the front of the line.

[2341] Like, help me, like, cut the line, I guess.

[2342] Sure, sure.

[2343] And he said there were so many tire issues that came in that day and over, like, it's been a crazy problem.

[2344] He also, he was an interesting, I'm not going to name him.

[2345] Okay.

[2346] But he was an interesting elderly gentleman.

[2347] Okay.

[2348] And he was a curmudgeon.

[2349] Oh, he was a curmudgeon?

[2350] Yeah.

[2351] I was going to ask you, what's elderly to you at 35 years old?

[2352] My guess would have been 70s.

[2353] Okay, yeah.

[2354] Okay, great.

[2355] So we still have the same.

[2356] I don't know, like 55 to you as elderly.

[2357] Could be.

[2358] No, as I get older, it will be higher.

[2359] Right, right, of course.

[2360] That's why I was wondering if we have a 12 -year gap in our...

[2361] Right.

[2362] But no, 70s elderly.

[2363] Well, and he, okay, so he was obviously confused at why I had this car, right?

[2364] Okay, sure.

[2365] Yeah.

[2366] When I'm sitting there, I'm confused at why I have this car.

[2367] I feel like pretty woman there.

[2368] I don't know any of the answers.

[2369] to any of the questions.

[2370] He says, are you the original owner of this car?

[2371] And I said, yes, but then I had to say, yes, but it was purchased for me. And then I hated saying that.

[2372] Why did you have to say that?

[2373] Because I knew something was up.

[2374] He was like on the computer and he was looking confused.

[2375] What did say my name in there?

[2376] Yes.

[2377] It does.

[2378] Yes.

[2379] I told you, I still get so many emails around the car.

[2380] Well, exactly.

[2381] So he was like, it says Shepard Dax.

[2382] And I said, yes, yeah, he purchased the car.

[2383] And then he was like, oh, okay, okay.

[2384] No problem.

[2385] Beverly Hills.

[2386] I'm sure a lot of people are getting cars purchased for them.

[2387] Yeah, but I...

[2388] You didn't like that.

[2389] But I wanted to say, like, but I could have bought it.

[2390] Yeah, I got enough mind if I did buy this.

[2391] I know.

[2392] But I didn't.

[2393] You just tell him it was a bonus.

[2394] No, I didn't want to get into the whole...

[2395] You just told him the whole thing.

[2396] There's a bonus.

[2397] I had said no to the first bonus.

[2398] I can't get into that.

[2399] So then he just, he went and bought this car because he knew I couldn't really return that.

[2400] It was kind of a passive aggressive way for him to give me a bonus.

[2401] I did not want to get into that.

[2402] To the bonus.

[2403] Yeah, the bonus part.

[2404] So, no, I just said, yes, that he bought it.

[2405] Well, I thought maybe that will help.

[2406] Maybe he knows you.

[2407] Too old.

[2408] Yeah, I think.

[2409] I don't think he knew you, unfortunately.

[2410] And he said, okay, so you go sit in the waiting room and I'm going to be your hero.

[2411] Okay, great.

[2412] So I'm like, great.

[2413] This is going to get done in 30 minutes.

[2414] Yeah, that's what that means to me. Exactly.

[2415] You're not hero status if you bring anything in past an hour.

[2416] Exactly.

[2417] Right.

[2418] So I'm sitting I am waiting for so long And I keep thinking I could be like walking around Beverly Hills My favorite place You could have spent So much money Yes Minutes are going by Minutes are going by Finally I like run into him And he was like Oh I was looking for you I was like well I'm in the space You told me to be And he said I called this number But it's not Maybe isn't not your number And it wasn't And I thought oh But it wasn't yours It was like probably Howard's And I said And then I had to say, oh, yeah, that's, that's my business manager probably.

[2419] And he's like, you know.

[2420] The whole thing sounds like a scam at this point, yeah.

[2421] Oh, and then earlier he had a QR code.

[2422] Okay.

[2423] And he said, you're young.

[2424] This is for your generation.

[2425] You're young.

[2426] So you can scan this.

[2427] And my contact information will pop up.

[2428] You save it in your phone.

[2429] You can scan it because you're young.

[2430] Great.

[2431] And I said, I'm not that young.

[2432] I'm 35.

[2433] I had to make that clear.

[2434] Yeah.

[2435] And he said, you're a young.

[2436] And I was like, okay, I guess to...

[2437] Yeah, relative.

[2438] Half his age.

[2439] Yeah, 70.

[2440] But I think he thought I was like 16.

[2441] I think, well, you thought he thought that.

[2442] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2443] You felt like a little underage girl who didn't belong there.

[2444] Yes.

[2445] Time is passing.

[2446] We're like two hours in at this point.

[2447] Nothing.

[2448] Finally, he comes...

[2449] I run into him again.

[2450] He says, oh, they said you have to have a side...

[2451] The other tire on the front is running really low and...

[2452] and you have to replace it.

[2453] Bullshit.

[2454] No way.

[2455] This is why I can't.

[2456] What do you have 4 ,000 miles on that car?

[2457] I said yes.

[2458] What else am I going to do?

[2459] I know, I know, I know.

[2460] I hate these people.

[2461] I hate these people.

[2462] But also.

[2463] Let me just say no. Really?

[2464] What do you have on that car?

[2465] Four thousand miles?

[2466] Probably, I don't know.

[2467] Guess what?

[2468] Those tires are good for like 20 plus thousand.

[2469] But if I'm like the person in the meme, I might need it.

[2470] I asked you that when my tire was flat.

[2471] too if I needed to replace the pair or just the one because I knew that they were going to try to sell it in a pair.

[2472] I know.

[2473] He didn't at first, like I signed everything for one.

[2474] He didn't do that until it went to the away.

[2475] Well, by the way, this is all a strategy.

[2476] It's the same way when you buy a car, they have a built -in backstop, which is, yeah, I'm going to give it to you for this.

[2477] I'm the salesman.

[2478] Now I just got to take this whole thing to my finance manager.

[2479] Now the finance manager becomes the bad guy.

[2480] I say, well, look, so I guess we're going to have to make the payment.

[2481] It's blah, blah, blah.

[2482] Like, they've always got a way.

[2483] So it's like, this guy's a good guy, but then he just found out from his technician, you're going to have to do both tires, which is horseshit.

[2484] Oh, all right.

[2485] Okay, well, anyways.

[2486] Well.

[2487] By the way, what will wear out way sooner on your car than the fronts or the rears because it's rear wheel drive.

[2488] So all the friction, you know, the massive amount of friction is happening in back.

[2489] So the notion that your front tire.

[2490] But I sit in the front and I have big boobs.

[2491] Okay, well, then that might explain.

[2492] That's what they said.

[2493] They said it must be...

[2494] Let's be these knockers.

[2495] Okay, so I said, okay, great.

[2496] Also, at this point, they've worn me down.

[2497] I'm sitting there for hours.

[2498] I'm like, just do it.

[2499] Yeah, get it done.

[2500] Do whatever, however many...

[2501] Fuck me. How are you going to do.

[2502] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2503] Give me a new car.

[2504] I don't care.

[2505] But I need to leave.

[2506] Then he goes.

[2507] I'm waiting again.

[2508] And he keeps saying, I'm your hero.

[2509] Like, he's still acting like he's doing me a favor in this.

[2510] Yeah, he didn't want to give up that role of hero.

[2511] He was enjoying this.

[2512] Well, he made it seem like if he wasn't doing what he was doing, it would be next week.

[2513] Yes, correct.

[2514] So eventually I go and I'm going to go walk around.

[2515] Yeah.

[2516] Can you just call me when it's done?

[2517] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2518] He said yes.

[2519] So then I walked.

[2520] You said, I'm young.

[2521] So I'm going to go walk around and shop because I'm young.

[2522] I like the shop.

[2523] And I went to rodeo.

[2524] I went into Celine I bought some sunglasses That was a whole thing Because the computer jammed When they were just trying to print the receipt And I was standing there for like 20 minutes And I thought this day Wasn't your day This is not a good day Yeah Then I went to the Gucci shop across the street Because I wanted a hat And they didn't have the hat Oh man Okay Did you return with a whole bunch of shopping bags Only Celine But yeah But yeah, so then he calls, he says the car's ready.

[2525] Great, I walk back, sweating.

[2526] Mm -hmm.

[2527] I'm sitting there, and he's taking so long to process.

[2528] He's on the phone about another person's car.

[2529] I'm just like, can we, what is, I hate this.

[2530] It's 4 o 'clock.

[2531] Mm, your whole day.

[2532] This happened.

[2533] I left my witch at 11.

[2534] Mm, five -hour ordeal.

[2535] Yeah.

[2536] Yikes.

[2537] So that was that.

[2538] I got two new tires.

[2539] Oh, good.

[2540] Well, I guess.

[2541] That's great.

[2542] I'm so mad they force you to get a second tire.

[2543] I should have checked with you, but it was, I couldn't.

[2544] I know, I know, I know.

[2545] Yeah.

[2546] You get to the point where you're just like, I don't fucking just get me out of here.

[2547] Yeah, and I don't know enough.

[2548] Yeah.

[2549] Anyway.

[2550] No one does.

[2551] I know.

[2552] Yeah.

[2553] I was even thinking about that.

[2554] I was noting in my mind that, like, when you were walking through Michigan or even driving through neighborhoods, yeah.

[2555] I'd say like one in 10 driveways you pass, there's a dad working on a car.

[2556] Yeah.

[2557] He's got the ramps out or he's got the jack out or he's out there with even a polishing kit, something.

[2558] Yes.

[2559] And I can't speak to other states, but just, I know of Michigan, like one in ten dudes is out there wrenching on his car.

[2560] And I was thinking just in L .A., you don't ever see someone fixing their car.

[2561] Except me. Yeah.

[2562] I did think when I'm sitting there, I thought, is this something Dax could have just replaced for me?

[2563] Like, could we have just bought a tire, got this thing home?

[2564] Yeah.

[2565] I cannot mount a tire.

[2566] Okay, that's good.

[2567] Because you need a machine for it.

[2568] Okay, that makes me feel better.

[2569] Yeah, I can plug your tire, which I've done a few times, I think.

[2570] Yep.

[2571] But not a side wall gash.

[2572] I can't.

[2573] I'm embarrassed to say.

[2574] I almost couldn't say it.

[2575] I can't fix that.

[2576] Yeah, that's going to be a structural collapse.

[2577] No, I'm glad.

[2578] Yeah, if it was just like a nail in your tire, and I could have plugged it in two and a half minutes.

[2579] Yeah, that would be frustrated.

[2580] And if you could have just limped it back home or I could have plugged it, yeah.

[2581] But no, sidewall blow out your, you need a new tire.

[2582] Okay.

[2583] But you need two new tires.

[2584] Oh, kind of related.

[2585] Some people cared.

[2586] God bless them.

[2587] I've got the Hell Kitty back.

[2588] The Hellcat's back.

[2589] What?

[2590] Yes, the Hellcat lives.

[2591] How?

[2592] It's sitting out there.

[2593] Yeah, it was totaled, then it wasn't totaled, then it was totaled, then it wasn't I've never had an experience like this where it kept going back and forth.

[2594] When the insurance was like, no, we're just going to write it off.

[2595] Then you know, then you got the people fixing it.

[2596] Well, no, we need this thing.

[2597] Ultimately, on the third go -round, my man, David Jackson, my hero that we work with, was like, they're willing to do it, do you want it fixed?

[2598] And I was like, yes, because I've been, I had already decided I wasn't going to get another one to replace it because I felt guilty because I had gotten a new truck.

[2599] But I really was so sad I wasn't going to have.

[2600] I thought you said there weren't even no more.

[2601] Well, this is the very last year of production.

[2602] So it was like I could maybe sneak in the window.

[2603] But then I was like, that's too indulgent.

[2604] I can't buy two new cars in a year.

[2605] I try to wait, I try to wait three years between new cars.

[2606] Wow.

[2607] You wouldn't know it by looking in the driveway because there's 50 fucking cars out there, but I really try to police myself.

[2608] That's nice.

[2609] And compounding that was Dodge has released.

[2610] They just announced for the last year run of this.

[2611] the Challenger Charger, they have a challenger called the Challenger 170.

[2612] It's a 1 ,025 horsepower.

[2613] It does wheelies.

[2614] Oh.

[2615] It does zero to 60 in 1 .6 seconds.

[2616] And it does an 8 second quarter mile.

[2617] It's like a full -blown drag car that you can buy at the dealership.

[2618] Oh, my God.

[2619] I started seeing this and I was like, I got it.

[2620] You wanted to do.

[2621] I think I told you this.

[2622] Delta told me, we're laying in bed.

[2623] And she just goes, Daddy, there's always going to be a faster car.

[2624] And I go, that's a good point.

[2625] She's trying to convince you not to buy it.

[2626] Telling I'm like, God, you guys, I saw this car.

[2627] Now all I can think about is like, how am I not going to buy this once -in -a -lifetime thousand -horsepower car that does wheelies from the fucking dealership?

[2628] It's a fast car in the world.

[2629] It's American feather in our cap this fucking thing.

[2630] Dodge, yehaw, fuck yeah, Dodge.

[2631] Go get them, boys.

[2632] Let's go, girls.

[2633] Let's go, girls.

[2634] Dane -d -de -l -lain.

[2635] Wow.

[2636] So I'm in bed lamenting.

[2637] I'm like, oh, I saw this thing.

[2638] And I'm like, I've got to get this car, but I can't get a car.

[2639] I just got the truck.

[2640] What I'm hoping to do is model for them that I want things and I could own them.

[2641] And I'm not going to.

[2642] Wow.

[2643] That's the real point of me including them in this whole thought process.

[2644] Okay.

[2645] And Delta goes, Daddy, there's always going to be a faster car.

[2646] You made her sound Brooklyn or something.

[2647] She doesn't really have her.

[2648] her speech impediment anymore.

[2649] But in my mind, she still talks like that.

[2650] Daddy.

[2651] There's always going to be a faster car on the next corner.

[2652] So she just hits me with the spiritual, like, there will always be a faster car.

[2653] And she's like, you just have to focus on how many fast cars you already have.

[2654] I'm like, but this is faster than the ones I have.

[2655] Anyways, it was hysterical the way she was like counseling.

[2656] me through it.

[2657] Anyways, so I'd just gotten over the fact that I was not going to get this thing that I want really, really bad and probably I'll regret it the rest of my life because they're not going to make it anymore.

[2658] It's going all electric and then this is it.

[2659] Buy this car.

[2660] Hold on.

[2661] I'm having all these feelings and then all of a sudden the Hell Kitty returns.

[2662] The Hell Kitty return last week right as we left to go out of town.

[2663] Oh, wow.

[2664] And I was driving, I was like, this car's so fast.

[2665] Sure, this 170's faster, but this thing already won't hook up on the highway.

[2666] It's so fucking fast.

[2667] The car is so fast.

[2668] It's silly.

[2669] I think mine's broken.

[2670] This happened.

[2671] When I worked for GM, we had a fleet of cars in our shop, 60, 70 deep.

[2672] Often we had four Camaro Z -28s.

[2673] They all have the same engine, the same rear end, the same transmission.

[2674] Occasionally one would just be faster than a striped ass tape.

[2675] I don't know why.

[2676] Some variation in manufacturing.

[2677] Occasionally one would come out and just be like, wow, that one, and all the guys would talk about it.

[2678] like, hey, have you driven CP3?

[2679] C3PO?

[2680] Not C3PO, but, you know, we would label the key things.

[2681] Okay.

[2682] And the person would be like, oh, my God, yes.

[2683] I think mine's a freaking one.

[2684] I think something weird, something's weird about mine.

[2685] Okay.

[2686] Anyways, it's so fast.

[2687] The point is, I was so satiated with driving the hell kitty.

[2688] And I'm like, you know what?

[2689] I've got a plenty enough fat.

[2690] Delta was right.

[2691] Are you going to buy me the one of that?

[2692] I think you should buy it.

[2693] Yeah.

[2694] Okay.

[2695] Keep it at Carly's and don't tell Delta.

[2696] You have to buy it if there's none left It truly is the last time Yeah, you have to It's like robe pants Sometimes you think there's gonna be They'll make another one similar But no And then it's gone forever You're just same price too Similar price But yeah, you should buy it Okay, so it does wheelies Can you showroom?

[2697] Yes Can I'm gonna buy one of those I'm gonna buy you could have just wheelied all the way home Because it was a front tire Oh my God Yeah Wow.

[2698] Okay.

[2699] Cool.

[2700] All right.

[2701] Rick Rubin.

[2702] Ricky Roobes.

[2703] Yep.

[2704] The Ricker.

[2705] T. Keller.

[2706] Tom Kell.

[2707] Okay.

[2708] The Justin Bieber's movie is called Believe.

[2709] Not Believer.

[2710] Right.

[2711] Yeah.

[2712] It just makes you a believer.

[2713] Exactly.

[2714] John Chu directed that, by the way.

[2715] Yeah, I know.

[2716] He sure did.

[2717] Directed the shit out of that thing.

[2718] Okay.

[2719] He said that the Dow D. Jing is the most translated book in the world.

[2720] The Bible is the most translated book in the world.

[2721] That sounds right.

[2722] And number two is The Little Prince.

[2723] Oh, wow.

[2724] Yeah.

[2725] So it is on this list.

[2726] On Wikipedia's list, it's fifth.

[2727] Oh, that's not bad.

[2728] Pinocchio's above it.

[2729] No way.

[2730] Any Dr. Cease?

[2731] No. So it's the Bible, the little prince.

[2732] What does the Bible really teach?

[2733] Okay.

[2734] That's the author is Jehovah's Witness.

[2735] Ah.

[2736] Uh -huh.

[2737] And then Adventures of Pinocchio and then the Dow D .J. I read recently that Dr. Seuss had sold, I think this is the number.

[2738] Well, how many do you think books?

[2739] Total?

[2740] Yeah, I'm going to need you to look this up, Rob, because now I'm nervous.

[2741] Even just your reaction got me nervous that I've got it wrong.

[2742] But, yeah, how many you think total books Dr. Seuss has sold?

[2743] A billion.

[2744] Oh, wow.

[2745] 70 million.

[2746] I think it's 160 million.

[2747] over 600 million copies over 600 million translated in more than 20 languages 600 million copies of a book that's incredible of a collection yeah yeah yeah yeah he has so many yeah how many's harry potter hmm oh someone just suggested a podcast to me the witch trial of jk ronley i saw it it popped up on my spotify but i haven't listened all right there's been more than 500 million copies of harry potter books sold Okay.

[2748] I would expect a billion at this point.

[2749] She'll get there.

[2750] So less than D. Seuss.

[2751] Yeah, but think about timing.

[2752] And the amount of books, too.

[2753] Right.

[2754] Although, isn't there like seven Harry Potter's?

[2755] Yeah, but there's like 400 Dr. Seuss.

[2756] I know, but there's probably only five there to the big boys.

[2757] No. Green X and Ham.

[2758] Oh, the places you'll go.

[2759] Red, black and white.

[2760] No, that's not a popular one.

[2761] The Grinch.

[2762] Okay.

[2763] Look at most spots.

[2764] popular doctor's books.

[2765] Rob is like, Rob's like one of those guys that sits in the van while the CIA team breaks into a place.

[2766] He's like, okay, you're in.

[2767] There's more than 60 of them.

[2768] Oh, but not as many.

[2769] Top 10 high is selling.

[2770] Number 10, my book about me. Never heard of it.

[2771] Me neither.

[2772] Nine.

[2773] How the Grinch told Christmas.

[2774] Nine.

[2775] How could that only be nine?

[2776] I would have thought that was number one.

[2777] I bet it's all the places you'll go.

[2778] No, it's green eggs at hand.

[2779] The Wuzzles.

[2780] No, what's the one?

[2781] The Pantoo.

[2782] No, the...

[2783] Black Red and one.

[2784] No, the creatures.

[2785] Oh.

[2786] They made a movie.

[2787] Lorax.

[2788] Oh, yeah, that's up there.

[2789] All right.

[2790] Okay, we were on eight?

[2791] Eight Fox and Sox.

[2792] Nope.

[2793] Yeah, yeah, Fox and Sox.

[2794] I know that one.

[2795] Not bigger than the Grinch.

[2796] Get real.

[2797] Seven, Cat in the Hat comes back.

[2798] Okay.

[2799] Cat in the Hat, obviously.

[2800] But comes back.

[2801] This is the sequel.

[2802] Right.

[2803] Okay.

[2804] Sold over four million copies.

[2805] Okay, so Cat and the Hat might be one.

[2806] All right.

[2807] Dr. Seuss's ABC.

[2808] Uh -huh.

[2809] Okay.

[2810] Popular.

[2811] Babies.

[2812] Number five, well, the places you'll go.

[2813] Okay.

[2814] Beautiful book.

[2815] Love it.

[2816] Graduation gifts.

[2817] Same.

[2818] Number four, hop on pop.

[2819] Nope.

[2820] Hop on pop, yeah.

[2821] I've got that one.

[2822] Is this list from the same people who did the smartest animals list?

[2823] Amreading .com.

[2824] What was it called again?

[2825] I forget.

[2826] Sentiananimals .org or something like that.

[2827] Okay.

[2828] Number three, one, fish, two, fish, red fish, blue fish.

[2829] Yes.

[2830] Yes, you say that?

[2831] Oh, yeah.

[2832] I know all these.

[2833] Over six million.

[2834] I think this is...

[2835] This list is random.

[2836] But this is also like 1960s.

[2837] Oh!

[2838] Was when it was published.

[2839] The list.

[2840] Oh, so it has more time.

[2841] Okay.

[2842] And people were buying books probably more...

[2843] Okay.

[2844] Back then.

[2845] I don't know.

[2846] It's like movies.

[2847] Are they counting e -books?

[2848] They need to count E's.

[2849] Number two, Cat in the Hat.

[2850] Okay.

[2851] And...

[2852] Number one, Green Eggs and Ham.

[2853] Oh, wow.

[2854] Over eight million.

[2855] copies sold as of 2001.

[2856] Oh, so way more.

[2857] 22 years ago.

[2858] Yeah.

[2859] They got to be a 20 million.

[2860] You're not going to let.

[2861] Well, you won't mind because Rob's giving me this information.

[2862] Completely reject that the Grinch is nine.

[2863] I don't believe it.

[2864] I have another list that's the top five is the same.

[2865] Okay.

[2866] And they have real numbers for this.

[2867] This isn't like sentient animals.

[2868] I know.

[2869] Or someone's like, they've had one interaction with a pig that blew their mind.

[2870] Exactly.

[2871] That fucking thing's smarter than a dolphin, I think.

[2872] It's 2021, and this one says over 650 million copies.

[2873] Dr. Susan is my favorite.

[2874] I do like Dr. Susan.

[2875] Of all time, yeah.

[2876] Of all time?

[2877] The most creative.

[2878] The fact that he drew those pictures in addition to the wording, because as I started dabbling and writing some children's books, I was just thinking about that seems like you could replicate that.

[2879] Yeah, it's really hard.

[2880] You can't.

[2881] Yeah.

[2882] Or I can't.

[2883] Yeah.

[2884] Yeah, it's like, if it were just the writing, that would be its own insanely impressive thing.

[2885] But the drawings so perfectly match the writing.

[2886] Yeah.

[2887] What a special person.

[2888] But I do like Shel Silverstein.

[2889] I do too, but not as much as Dr. Seuss.

[2890] Betsy's messy room.

[2891] Where the sidewalk ends.

[2892] Remember when I did a reading?

[2893] Yes, I do.

[2894] There was some confusion, too.

[2895] I was talking about the one about the girl who wouldn't take the trash out.

[2896] Right.

[2897] Yeah.

[2898] And you thought it was the same as Grassy's Messies.

[2899] Sassy room Yeah Okay Musicians not appreciated in their time We talked about Are there any not really for musicians But there are Ava Cassidy Fields of Gold and Over the Rainbow Perversions That got huge But that was after she died But remember Kristen was going to play her in a movie Remember this a long time ago No Yeah she was like working on it But she was intimidated Wow Nick Drake Oh yeah Pink Moon.

[2900] Jeff Buckley.

[2901] I was going to say him when that came up.

[2902] That one's harder for me because I was super into Jeff Buckley before he died.

[2903] You were an early adopter.

[2904] Yeah.

[2905] He is the prettiest version of Hallelujah.

[2906] I know.

[2907] I love it.

[2908] That's what blew up after.

[2909] He had one hit song, though, before then that I loved.

[2910] That was the entry.

[2911] Lover, you should have come over?

[2912] Oh, I love that song.

[2913] Oh, I don't know if that.

[2914] That's a good one.

[2915] But I think that was still after.

[2916] Like got big.

[2917] And then Otis Redding.

[2918] Oh, really?

[2919] Wasn't big in his time?

[2920] He died when he was 26.

[2921] Ah.

[2922] In a plane crash.

[2923] And then this says Jim Croce.

[2924] Oh, sure, yeah.

[2925] Okay.

[2926] So there were some.

[2927] Yeah.

[2928] Okay, he recommended a book Born to Run.

[2929] It's called...

[2930] About the boss?

[2931] No. It's called Born to Run, A Hidden Tribe Super Athletes and the Greatest Race The World Has Ever Seen.

[2932] Oh, right, the running.

[2933] Yeah.

[2934] And it's by Christopher McDougain.

[2935] Hmm Baby we were born to run Wow This is crazy This is a sim Tell me So I looked up my facts And so they're just tabs up here And I had two that said Born to Run And I thought they were both about the book But the second one is about Bruce Springsteen Born to Run Sure Baby we were born to run Tramps like this.

[2936] Because I looked up if it was true that they almost got dropped by their label, which it is.

[2937] But both tabs are the same thing.

[2938] Oh.

[2939] Two different facts and facts.

[2940] Wow.

[2941] Well, and we did have a Michelin Star conversation right before Mitchell and Tyre.

[2942] Oh, my God.

[2943] But they're not Michelin Tires.

[2944] He said Michelin, though.

[2945] I did.

[2946] Oh, my God.

[2947] Duck, Ducs, maybe.

[2948] Yeah, that's a D .D. Wow.

[2949] Okay.

[2950] Um, is that it?

[2951] Let's see.

[2952] Oh, shoot.

[2953] I wanted you to call.

[2954] I was going to text you this morning.

[2955] I forgot.

[2956] I wanted you to call Seth Ave it and ask for clarification on the moment when they stepped outside after no hard feelings.

[2957] Right.

[2958] And what's the debate, though?

[2959] What was Rick saying?

[2960] So Rick saw in the movie.

[2961] Yes.

[2962] Because he just says, okay.

[2963] That was great.

[2964] Guys, what do you want to do next?

[2965] Right, you want to keep the ball rolling.

[2966] Yeah.

[2967] And so he feels like when he watched the movie that they were kind of like, well, what was that?

[2968] He felt that they were bummed, maybe, that he didn't give them more of a reaction.

[2969] Like, what's with this guy?

[2970] They did the perfect take.

[2971] And then I think they were upset with the reaction, according to Rick.

[2972] And then you said, you thought maybe they had a sense of fraudulence.

[2973] Yeah.

[2974] So there's some, there's some theories floating, and I thought we should check.

[2975] Should we call him?

[2976] First of all, let me start by saying Seth is not the type of person that would like a random call and saying you're on the air.

[2977] Let's just start there.

[2978] Okay.

[2979] But we're going to do it anyway?

[2980] Why not?

[2981] He's also a forgiving man, I think.

[2982] He has no hard feelings.

[2983] No. And no enemies.

[2984] Also, when we're saying, telling people they're on the air, it's so stupid.

[2985] I know, because they're not.

[2986] Yeah.

[2987] Okay, you're not going to like this.

[2988] I preface this by saying, Seth is not the kind of guy that wants to be called and told he's on the air.

[2989] Oh, God.

[2990] But there's no such thing as on the air.

[2991] You're on the air, but even though there's no such thing.

[2992] And we'll cut this out if you don't like it.

[2993] But here's what happened.

[2994] You ready?

[2995] Oh, Dax.

[2996] What have you done?

[2997] Here we go.

[2998] It's not what I've done.

[2999] It's what I'm about to do.

[3000] We had Rick Rubin on.

[3001] You with me so far?

[3002] Mr. Rubin.

[3003] Yeah.

[3004] We had Rick on as a great episode, and we're doing the fact check now.

[3005] But what happened was Rick and I got in a little theoretical debate about the moment you guys had recorded no hard feelings at Shangri -La.

[3006] It's in the documentary.

[3007] Right.

[3008] Yeah, yeah.

[3009] And then you and Scott have like a little chat outside after that magical take.

[3010] And he had a whole theory, and I disagreed with the theory.

[3011] So, okay, so his, okay, great.

[3012] So if I can represent his theory, which I don't know that I can do perfectly.

[3013] But in essence, his thought was, wow, we're in a special zone.

[3014] Let's see what else we can do.

[3015] He had a whole fury on what was happening out there and that he didn't know until he watched the movie what was going on.

[3016] And then we had a little bit of a debate.

[3017] And then this was my understanding of that moment.

[3018] You can also keep it mysterious.

[3019] But here was my interpretation of that.

[3020] You guys, you stumbled into some little magic pocket that was like palpable to everyone.

[3021] I'll speak for you.

[3022] I don't know Scott well enough.

[3023] But I think you are such an honest person that you got a little flare of, for lack of a better word, imposter syndrome.

[3024] Like, did we deserve what just happened?

[3025] Like, what just happened and do we deserve that?

[3026] Does that make any sense?

[3027] It does, but continue.

[3028] Okay.

[3029] So my take was that happened and you guys needed to look at each other in the face and say, have we really?

[3030] earned that song that we just recorded, basically.

[3031] Are we telling the truth?

[3032] But Rick thought you guys were kind of mad at him, I think.

[3033] Yeah, okay, so Rick kind of thought you guys were mad at him.

[3034] Well, you know, this is very funny.

[3035] This is, I mean, to my mind, this speaks quite a lot to, you know, God, just reality itself and just how subjective it all is.

[3036] Yeah, even when it's recorded.

[3037] Yeah, even when there is an observable event, there can be, conflicting perceptions that, you know, can be basically true, you know, or at least to the person that experienced them.

[3038] But I'm basically going to lay just kind of a third option on you.

[3039] Okay, lovely.

[3040] Because, well, with Rick, no, there was no anger towards them whatsoever.

[3041] So I hate that he felt that.

[3042] But it's certainly not for me. And I can definitely speak for Scott that that was not happening.

[3043] I think there probably was just sort of a miscommunication because since there was, what we can all agree upon was that there was this one of these, you know, palpable moments of magic.

[3044] Yeah, like four or five times in your career experience, right?

[3045] Yeah, yeah.

[3046] And when that moment hits you, you don't really know what that's going to do for you and what it's going to do to you.

[3047] And depending on where you are at that moment in your life, I think that's going to inform how you take it.

[3048] But what I experienced was something close to what you described, but it did not arise in any sense of guilt or shame in me. Oh, that's good.

[3049] Yeah, but I think it maybe did for Scott.

[3050] Ah, uh -huh.

[3051] So that was present.

[3052] But see, Scott was, he was sort of battling the meaning of basically packaging something like that song.

[3053] You know what I mean?

[3054] Yes, yes.

[3055] Like, so you feel like you've betrayed some kind.

[3056] like some divine intervention and now you're commodifying it or something?

[3057] I wonder.

[3058] Yeah.

[3059] Yeah.

[3060] That's right.

[3061] Because the song is so clearly, like it's like a deathbed song, it came to me in a pure way.

[3062] And I felt that in the writing of it, that I honored the feeling, though it was a very intense process, even just writing the song, you know?

[3063] Yeah.

[3064] But so Scott, for whatever was happening in his life or whatever, being in that space, it really, it was kind of a whirlwind of emotion And it was for me as well, but for me, it was just like, oh, my God, isn't this awesome what's happening right now?

[3065] And for Scott, it was like, what are we doing?

[3066] Are we going to sell this?

[3067] Are we going to congratulate ourselves?

[3068] Like, he had more of a conflict about it.

[3069] And I, like, what you see in the movie is kind of a weird thing for me because what you see in the movie is me not really being completely honest because I was just trying to make everything cool.

[3070] Yeah, yeah, of course, younger brother.

[3071] Right, right.

[3072] I wanted to be nice.

[3073] I wanted to be nice for him.

[3074] Yeah, I was playing my role as a younger brother, but I wanted to be nice for him.

[3075] I wanted to be nice for me. And really, internally, what was happening was I was going, you're ruining it.

[3076] It's getting ruined.

[3077] Yeah.

[3078] This is awesome, man, it's been ruined.

[3079] Yeah.

[3080] And I'll never forget the next day, me and Jennifer were, she lived in West Hollywood, and I remember us, we were, like, walking slash jogging around, and near Beverly Hills.

[3081] And I just remember, like, she was kind of standing in as like a therapist for me in a way because I was like really happened to process like what had happened that day you know the day we recorded no hard feelings it's it's funny how you're calling me and asking me about it because it does kind of live on them that makes a lot of sense too and I think maybe what Scott was experiencing for you you had already kind of inspired experience writing it so you you already felt something internally and then to see it executed for you is like oh my god it never comes out as perfect as it is inside.

[3082] So there's this, probably for you, a huge sense of accomplishment, but whereas Scott, who hadn't written, it was drug into something that was nearing perfect and felt maybe for himself, like, do I belong here?

[3083] Yeah, and also, how does this fit in the context of packaging a thing?

[3084] Yeah.

[3085] Of making a thing that you then share with people, like the concept of making a thing and then the concept of sharing it and in what capacity you do that and how you do that.

[3086] All that gets pretty, pretty common.

[3087] complicated when the meeting is as intense as, you know, what no hard feelings is tackling.

[3088] But yeah, for me, like, for me, it's kind of the completion of a circle because it took about eight years to write the song.

[3089] And the beginning of that eight years, the initial moment, the initial idea moment, I never forget, I was driving through Statesville, North Carolina, and I was by myself, and that melody and those first lines, just kind of just hand it over.

[3090] And, like, I started getting, like, pretty teary, and, like, it was getting kind of hard to drive because I was starting to cry and I'm also like on the console of the car you know yeah yeah and I'm left -handed so I'm kind of like twist it over like right to say anyway so like that was the beginning of that moment and then like we're at Shangri -la we're all together and we make this thing and so it was intense for me for a different reason and I got to say while we're on the topic that was Rick what was beautiful about finishing it we just we only played it like two or three what two times maybe and that was it's like moving on but Rick came out and like the great thing was that he was just like all right that was awesome.

[3091] Let's keep moving.

[3092] Like, let's, like, next song, you know.

[3093] Yes.

[3094] That's what he was.

[3095] Maybe he thought that we were like, that maybe we thought we were angry with him because we weren't ready to do that.

[3096] But I love that to him, it was just like, man, the vibe is great.

[3097] Let's continue.

[3098] Yeah, like the trees given fruit.

[3099] Let's pick some more.

[3100] Yeah.

[3101] That makes sense.

[3102] That makes sense.

[3103] It just, Scott and I, we had some.

[3104] We had some brotherly work to do.

[3105] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[3106] Well, that's a great explanation.

[3107] I'm really thankful that you were willing to give it and it makes a ton of sense and I do love you're right like we're all watching the same thing yet Rick had an opinion I had an opinion it's something somewhere different than all that from you yeah and that's part of I don't know that's part of like the architecture of a relatively pure moment I think that it that it evokes a lot of thoughts a lot of feelings a lot of interpretations that's kind of one of the more beautiful parts of it well I love you and I miss you and I'm so grateful you picked up.

[3108] Thank you.

[3109] Yeah, all the same things, Dax.

[3110] Love you too much, and I'll catch up with you soon.

[3111] All right, perfect.

[3112] Bye.

[3113] Peace.

[3114] Well, that went much better than expected.

[3115] We got an answer.

[3116] We got a second interview.

[3117] Yeah.

[3118] We sure did.

[3119] Okay, so that's it.

[3120] Okay, great.

[3121] So we resolve that.

[3122] Perfect.

[3123] I love you.

[3124] Love you.

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