Dr Alex George: My Hardest Day In A&E, Family Suicide & Finding TRUE Purpose

[0] I've gone from 200 followers on Instagram to 1 million in nine weeks.

[1] I just had tasted the failure so much that I wanted that success.

[2] One of the biggest things was going back to work.

[3] I went back to A &E.

[4] I am working in a position where I'm the recess department of a very busy hospital in A &E in London.

[5] The brutality rate with COVID is around 1%.

[6] I am seeing that percentage of people who are the sickest who are in the hospital.

[7] I could hear in his voice instantly that something really bad happened.

[8] I just said straight away, like, who's dying?

[9] the whole world, like, closed in.

[10] And I can't explain it.

[11] It sounds very dramatic, but it was like almost a spotlight came on to me that moment.

[12] And I was like, no, it can't be.

[13] I just couldn't believe it.

[14] That's the thing about suicide or, you know, about when these things happen.

[15] It can happen out of nowhere.

[16] And if everyone around that person, it is that guilt that you carry, I think, forever.

[17] Ask yourself, honestly, when is the last time you genuinely sat down?

[18] I thought about what you want to do in life, what actually is your purpose, what makes you happy?

[19] And if you haven't done it in the last year or so, do it.

[20] we had a phone call again and she said it's back and what you mean the cancer's back what do you say to someone who is dying in the next couple of weeks what can you say a lot of it's nonverbal you have a hug and you just share that moment don't you but when you walk out of that room it's like wow like i'm not seeing her again dr alex george you may know him from love island you may know him as one of the most well -known a &E doctors in our country or you may know him as a government advisor to youth mental health, appointed by Boris Johnson last year.

[21] Alex knows a whole lot about happiness, about the things that make us unhappy and about how we should be living if you want to live a truly fulfilling life.

[22] In this conversation, you'll come to realize that we are so far away from how we should be living and that in order to get there, we might have to redesign the entirety of the society we live in.

[23] That's a belief that I have.

[24] This conversation energized me. inspired me. It brought tears to my eyes.

[25] It gave me absolutely everything.

[26] And again, if there's a reason why I started this podcast, it's this conversation.

[27] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler.

[28] And this is the diary of the CEO.

[29] I hope nobody's listening.

[30] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[31] Alex, I have read a ton about you over the last couple of weeks, months, since you've sort of risen into the public eye.

[32] And one of the things that I really wanted to understand before and I tend to start here with most of my guess is I want to understand what it was from your childhood that made you the man you are today and what those significant moments were in your view wow that's a that's a deep question to dive straight into let's let's get in there well I mean I was brought up and born and brought up in West Wales and I lived on a little small holding my parents not farmers actually often as people assume they be a farming background and my dad, a policeman, my mum, worked in the bank.

[33] And I had quite a, I think, a quiet upbringing, you know, in the countryside, two brothers, two younger brothers.

[34] School life for me, I think, was up and down.

[35] You know, I was bullied quite a lot at school, a little bit in primary school, more so in secondary school.

[36] And I think as I grew up, I was naturally, I think it's probably innately as well as my environment that I was in, I was introverted or became an introvert.

[37] and there's a lot of conversation about are you born that way is it you molded that way I think probably a bit of both for me and and I think when I was at school and as I was growing up I think my parents were a big influence on my life I think they instilled a lot of the values that I have and mum was a big believer in that you should you know go out there and try to add value to people around you in the world and their focuses around what you achieve in terms of that rather than necessarily being trying to like be really successful make loads of money or whatever and I think that instilled in me that sense of I want to do good or try you know I'm not necessarily I think and you know I have the same I love cars I love all these different things as well I'm not saying I was trying to be some kind of save the world person but I had that kind of general thing that I'd like to go out and do something good if I could and I think when I was about 13 14 I had a bit of an interested in science I like you know I like the idea of of working in a career or going to a career that had, you know, a sense of teamwork, a purpose, which might sound a bit odd as an introvert, but, you know, I still wanted to be as part of a movement, if you like.

[38] And that's where medicine kind of appealed to me. So I started kind of watching early shows of like this equivalent to 24 hours in A &E back in the day and really, really kind of thought, oh, it'd be amazing to be an A &E, doctor, the excitement, the adrenaline, that'd be so awesome.

[39] I love that idea of, you know, using science and medicine.

[40] and to save people and I just started working towards that goal really and I'd say that again school wasn't that easy for me for various reasons I know now that I'm dyslexic I didn't know that then I didn't know it at school didn't know at university I really struggled with my written work and stuff and I was very frustrated actually at school a lot of the time I also had a very short attention span when I was in primary school I was put into a special needs class for a long time because, well, I don't know, I think I had a short attention span.

[41] Maybe they were concerned about me. I don't really know why that was a concern.

[42] My mum actually went into school and said, actually, Alex is quite bright.

[43] You know, I think you'd be fine.

[44] I went back into the normal classroom, and we kind of continued from there.

[45] In secondary school, again, struggled a bit with the written work.

[46] And actually, when I applied to med school the first time around, I did all the interviews got my place.

[47] I actually missed out on my grades, at grade A and my chemistry by two marks, which cost my place at med school, which is actually one of the most painful moments of my life, and I think really, really a defining moment.

[48] Because at the school I was in, I wasn't in a great school, I don't say a perfectly fine school, but I wouldn't say it was like a really, really high -achieving school.

[49] It was a state school.

[50] No one I think had done medicine for a couple of years, a good few years, potentially.

[51] Everyone's excited about this idea of we've got a student going.

[52] and there was a kind of having waiting for me to kind of open my results and I was like, yeah, I've got two A's and a B, three A's and a B, brilliant, I'm really glad about that, but sadly my two marks means that I can't go to med school.

[53] And I think that was a really defining moment for me. I was kind of my first feeling of failure in a way, and I think all of that, all of that has come together kind of mold by attitude, I think, to life and to kind of working hard, to wanting to achieve, to kind of appreciating success when you have it.

[54] You said you were bullied in school.

[55] What for?

[56] I grew very tall, very quickly.

[57] I was very skinny.

[58] I always had quite a bit of acne and stuff when I was younger.

[59] And I think, but mainly actually, the main reason I think I was bully was because I was sensitive.

[60] I am sensitive as a person.

[61] And I think things would get to me probably more so than I noticed my friends or other people around me. And I think that, sadly, sensitivity attracts some, you know, bullies at times, you know, at the moment, doing a massive campaign with the number 10 and down reward around bullying and tackling that and a lot of the young people I speak to have experienced the same.

[62] You know, sensitivity sadly attracts that.

[63] But it's odd because now I look back and think, you know, at the time, I thought that was a real weakness.

[64] But now I see it as a real strength.

[65] And I think my sensitivity has allowed me to be a better doctor.

[66] I think my ability to have empathy on my patients.

[67] I read people very well.

[68] I understand when I'm in a team, even now whether it's not in the hospital or the team that I'm working with from my management perspective or whether it's people working you know working with people at number 10 I read people very well I understand people and that allows me to get the best at people but back then it was a real target for bullies I think and obviously as you've you know you've spoken about at length that sensitivity I guess is incredibly conducive with having positive mental health yeah I think so I think it's it's about you know when you're talking about being an introvert and things and being sensitive.

[69] They're not necessarily mutually exclusive or necessarily come together, but I do think that it's about learning what you have and how to use that to use your strengths, you know, turn them into your strengths.

[70] It's all that as a big weakness, whereas now I see it as a great strength.

[71] And I think sometimes as you're growing up, you're unaware of what's good or bad about you physically or, you know, in terms of your personality types and sometimes the things that you kind of very harden yourself about when you're younger, like being sensitive, I'm now quite glad of.

[72] Even though now, of course, it still leaves me open.

[73] I mean, you know how it is being, you know, known in the public eye, whatever.

[74] I hate that phrase, but I think it's an understood one.

[75] It obviously opens you up because you're open to criticism a lot.

[76] And especially now with the work I'm doing the mental health space, it's tough.

[77] And there's a lot of people in the political space, people watching what's happening, who will criticize you.

[78] you know and that is not easy but you learn to deal with it and you you build a bit of a thicker skin as well I think have you learned to deal with it because as you say one point something million follows on Instagram 1 .9 million followers in Instagram or whatever it is um that's a lot of people probabilistically there's going to be a bunch of them in there that you know they just want to ruin your day you know it's funny because have all the things I've had I've had the the full works of death threats and all this kind of stuff particularly you know antivacs and things like that in recent months and stuff that doesn't bother me at all funny than I don't mind that.

[79] People can call me ugly, I can say look a certain way or, you know, they can call me what they want in that sense.

[80] And it doesn't bother me too much, to be honest.

[81] I've really been able to kind of, even though that was the kind of stuff that bothered me, I was younger, I'm very resilient to that now.

[82] What I think I'm more sensitive to now is when people kind of criticize the things that I'm working on that really matters to me, particularly the stuff around the mental health space, you know, when I've been actually working in the space for a good few years before even before 2018 when I was on Love Island, even before all that, I was really, you know, actively working with the charities.

[83] I was also, you know, passionate advocate in my space in A &E.

[84] We see a huge amount of mental health.

[85] I mean, one of the big misconceptions about A &E is we just see, you know, injuries, cuts and bruises and heart attacks and things.

[86] At least 30 % of our workload relates to mental health.

[87] And I think it's probably higher than that in reality.

[88] And I've really worked in that space.

[89] But obviously, you know, since I'm, was appointed youth mental health ambassador since sadly my brother passed away last year which kind of led to me focusing even more and I guess the attention on it which led to the appointment it's tough sometimes when people go well oh you know you got 80 million for mental health support teams at school why didn't you get 200 you know you've let us down you didn't get 200 million it's very hard you know and it's when you especially when I go I'm very and actually very optimistic and positive person you know when I came with the role I was in the role and I was in it for about two or three weeks and I got that 80 million queer.

[90] There's a lot of money.

[91] You know, at a time in a pandemic, where the government's pretty strapped, we spent a load of money.

[92] I'm not just saying it's just me. We worked as, there's other people within the, with the group and the number 10 and outside that worked on this.

[93] But I think it's fair to say, I was a big steer on that happening.

[94] And then someone goes, oh, you didn't get enough.

[95] You've let us down.

[96] What you've done is terrible.

[97] You know, you shouldn't be there.

[98] Why are you in this role?

[99] Not easy.

[100] But I always go back to, and I think at the time, when I came out, there's a huge, and I should say this, I've 95 % amount of support has been unbelievable it's always the 5 % or 1 % or whatever that they get to you a little bit but you know now I've gone back to the idea well actually what are my values what matters to me and I go well actually I believe that I am making you know at least if even if it's a millimeter of difference I'm doing something I'm doing something positive and that keeps me going and that's what stops me becoming down I guess from from the kind of hate if you like you are you a confident person no I don't think so That's a good question.

[101] No, I'm not.

[102] I don't think so.

[103] Not inherently confident.

[104] I think I would always, if you put me in a in a party, if we were at a swanky party in New York that you might attend before the pandemic, I'd probably be the guy in the corner quietly chatting to one or two people, you know, and just I wouldn't, I would certainly avoid center of attention, classic kind of introvert in that sense.

[105] But I, even though I'm not confident, I do think I'm very resilient and I think I'm very determined.

[106] And I think that helps people like where confidence lacks sometimes my determination i think pushes through i mean it kind of begs the question and i'm sure you know you're probably sick of people inquiring about this apparent contradiction which is not a confident person in your own definition of confidence um and yet when that love island researcher comes knocking on your instagram when you have 200 followers and says do you want to be on one of the biggest shows in the world topless one of the biggest shows in the country topless you were like short well I mean the reason that happened was when I was at university and I loved my time of university mostly I will come and talk about a little bit about a time that wasn't so good maybe in a little bit but on the whole pretty good time but in my second year at uni one of my very very good friends Freya Barlow who was and it's it's annoying because sometimes you hear and I don't mean it's any disrespectful.

[107] You hear people talking about someone that's passed, and everyone goes, they're amazing, they do this, and they do this and that.

[108] But honestly, like, Freya was the most amazing person.

[109] She started, like, two charities, even by a second year in med school.

[110] She spent a summer as vaccinating kids and abroad and go to Africa and just doing, like, a really amazing work.

[111] And very sadly, you know, well, I actually remember one week it was towards the wintertime.

[112] I'm trying to remember towards wintertime.

[113] I said, Freya, you've got some bruises on your arm.

[114] I mean, are you right?

[115] said, oh, yeah, a bit hard.

[116] I've got a few bruises.

[117] I'm actually going to see the doctor, I think it was the next day or the day after.

[118] Anyway, a couple of days later, with a text in the group saying, we need to go for dinner tonight to talk to you guys, thought, this is hard.

[119] So we went to dinner and just sat us down and said, look, you know, these bruises that I've had, I've went to the doctor, had blood test taken, next day rushed into hospital.

[120] I've got leukemia, you know, and she had acute myeloid leukemia, which is a very, very serious, serious form of leukemia.

[121] And to put into context, it differs between people, but it can be a matter of short weeks from being diagnosed to passing away if you don't have treatment really quickly.

[122] So it's one of the most aggressive and nasty cancers that you can have.

[123] So it's a huge shock to all of us and she quite literally went to dinner and the next morning straight into isolation in the hospital to have nuclear chemotherapy basically, that really, really strong chemotherapy.

[124] She was in there for a huge length of time, many, many months.

[125] And, you know, it was really hard to watch her, you know, here falling out, you know, losing weights, you know, swelling in arms and feet and things like that from the chemo.

[126] And she was always so positive throughout the whole thing.

[127] A positivity was unbelievable and how relentless she was.

[128] And even to the point where she's actually, you know, the university said, look, take time out clearly, you know, we want you to recover and have time out.

[129] She said, no, I want to do my tests.

[130] I want to do my exams.

[131] She sat her exams in isolation, in an isolation cubicle in the hospital, which is just unbelievable and shows her resilience.

[132] anyway after a long bit of time I think it was six months or more she actually had a bone marrow transplant from I think it was something in Germany that gave her the bone marrow and she came out of the hospital and we were like yes she's getting through this and she even ran a marathon something silly like a month or so a couple of months after afterwards to raise money for leukemia research you know straight but we're like just chill out a bit now I'm straight back to charity work fine so then running into the next winter we had a full and call again and she said it's back and what do you mean is the cancer's back and she was told she had a matter of weeks to live because she'd had the bone marrow transplant it was now to the point where there was basically nothing could do so we threw a big ball and a party to kind of kind of celebrate her life to that point and we all kind of said a goodbye so we went I went to a house actually to say goodbye to her and one of the things she said to me before she part well she passed where like a week or so later.

[133] It wasn't very long.

[134] She said, Alex, you're an introvert.

[135] I think you've got a lot of talent in terms of what you do and I'm very proud of things you do.

[136] And I think you're, you know, you've got a lot of potential in your life, but you sometimes shy away.

[137] And I want you to go out there and say yes to things.

[138] Put yourself in, come, out of your comfort zone.

[139] So it's fair to say often in life, I just keep myself in that conversation.

[140] Put yourself out of that comfort zone.

[141] You know, say yes to things.

[142] Live your life.

[143] You know, I'm in a position now.

[144] I have to stop my life here.

[145] I want you to live yours and that I think is a very long -winded explanation but that is why I went on that show because I actually was very resistant to it the whole time and even to now the execs will say I'm the one person that didn't want to go on the show you know but I was like I almost felt like I don't know what I believe and what you don't believe but I was like I was like what would Freya say she said get on that show and do it and that's why I did it I can't imagine what it's like having to go and say goodbye to a friend like that.

[146] And, you know, it's so difficult.

[147] And at that age, you know, only 22 or 23 or something, whatever I was, it's very odd.

[148] It's very odd to have a conversation with someone.

[149] And like, we've experienced, everyone's experienced grief at some point.

[150] And but this was the only, and still is the only time I've been sat with someone, knowing it was the last conversation.

[151] It's a very odd situation because what do you say to someone who, is dying in the next couple of weeks and they're so young and you had all this hope about them getting better um but and i remember it's almost like i could go back to that moment so intensely because in that moment i was like this is the last chance i'm going to speak to this person i need to capture every second of this so it's almost like hardwired into my brain um but i really appreciated what she said and i to this day even now you know i was sort of sky news this morning and stuff which is again miles up my comfort zone never you know i'm becoming more used to these things now, but Myers are my comfort zone, none of that stuff would happen if it wasn't for what she said to me, I don't think.

[152] I'd have just continued staying within that comfort zone, not pushing myself and protecting myself in a way, I guess.

[153] What did you say to her on that day?

[154] I told her that I loved her and that I was so glad that I knew her and how grateful I was really that she was my friend.

[155] and you know what I didn't tell of which I said to other people was how cruel the world can be sometimes you know you got someone who's going to be a doctor and we want an amazing doctor as well you know not just doctor but an amazing one and such a kind genuine person like how cruel can it be to happen to that person but obviously in that moment you don't want to say that you know she she you just want to instill that feeling of love and appreciation for them but it was hard what can you say a lot of it's nonverbal you have a hug and you just share that moment don't you but when you walk out that room it's like wow like i'm not seeing her again very odd very difficult very difficult but you know i'm very grateful and i'm very grateful and i've taken straight into a darker place there but on a real positive you know i feel that the people around us can have can have such an impact on our lives and like so much light has come from her life because of that i continue to talk about as much possible.

[156] We are, you know, and we all celebrate her and her life.

[157] And I hope that I have taken a bit of it with me to do some of the things I'm doing now.

[158] And I hope that she'd be proud of some of it.

[159] And you were, you were working in sort of emergency medicine before the Love Island experience began.

[160] So begs the question, how did you get into that if you weren't able to go to medical school?

[161] Well, so, so basically I'd applied the time if we go back to when I missed my grades.

[162] And this is where I think I learned about failure, which I think is very important.

[163] I'm talks about success but failure is incredibly important.

[164] I failed by two marks.

[165] Obviously absolutely gutted, didn't have my grade.

[166] What made it worse was me and my friend were going to go into Liverpool together.

[167] He was going to go to dental school.

[168] I was going to med school, best buddies all the way through, like can't wait.

[169] And obviously like, oh mate, sorry, you enjoy yourself.

[170] Yeah, gutted.

[171] So I had to apply again.

[172] Well, I had to actually, I sat down my mum and she was very upset as you can imagine.

[173] And I said, look, mum, it's fine.

[174] And I apply again.

[175] I get the grade.

[176] I do the interviews, do the test you've got to do with the application.

[177] It's fine, I'll get in.

[178] And I believe that I would.

[179] I was like, I'm not going to give up.

[180] I corrected a few sentences on my course.

[181] I needed to correct to get the marks back up.

[182] I reapplied again, did the interviews.

[183] I got my place.

[184] And I went to sound like a guy that lacks confidence.

[185] I don't know.

[186] I think, I think, I think that resilience and confidence are probably separate things.

[187] I think I, that was one of the first times I really faced properly in my life where I'd really failed.

[188] And I had to kind of ask myself a question.

[189] do I give up?

[190] And I was like, I am not giving up, I'm going.

[191] And I think it was like, but I think that did give me confidence.

[192] I think if we're talking about that, it's like that resilience of going.

[193] I was like, wow, when I got the place again, I went to med school, I did feel more confident about that.

[194] I might not be confident to walk topless in front of people like when my knees were shaking and walking out on Love Island, but I was more confident myself that I was resilient.

[195] And when I went to bad school, the great thing was, and I think this is why fail is so important.

[196] A, I knew how painful it is to nearly miss out something it means a lot to you.

[197] The second, I really appreciate it when I've actually succeeded.

[198] So when I was at med school, I just appreciated so much.

[199] I loved every moment of it.

[200] You know, I worked hard, you know, and I, even though I nearly missed out on going, I came out with a distinction, the top kind of two or three in the year.

[201] You know, a few people each year get distinction.

[202] So I ended up in doing well.

[203] But I don't think that's because I'm particularly better than anyone at exams or whatever.

[204] I just had tasted the failure so much that I wanted that success.

[205] And I think that has been a really good life.

[206] lesson.

[207] You know, I still fail today.

[208] We all fail, right, all the time.

[209] But I know that I can pick myself up and I will always get there.

[210] Do you want to come in and watch this podcast live from behind the scenes?

[211] If you do, all you have to do is hit the subscribe button.

[212] And now that the world has opened up, you'll be behind the scenes, as many of our subscribers have been.

[213] I can't wait to meet you.

[214] That's part of what inspires you to try things outside of your, this sort of circumference of your comfort zone is knowing that even if, you know, the worst possible outcome occurs, You've been here before.

[215] You survived this storm and it worked out in the end.

[216] And I think even for me now in my life, when, you know, because we're all, our comfort zones are all subjective to our experiences in life.

[217] So I have a comfort zone too.

[218] You know what I mean?

[219] People think I've achieved a lot in like my business career, whatever.

[220] I still have a comfort zone.

[221] There's still this thing in my head that says, Steve, this is what you're capable of, right?

[222] And so even when I step outside of mine, the thing that I'm always relying on in the hardest moments of my life is that hindsight of you know we've we've been here before we've got through this yeah and it and you've got to have faith even if it doesn't feel like it even if your emotions are telling you otherwise but have faith and trust yourself well you learn every time you extend that boundary the comfort zone you've got a step further i mean what are the what are you doing at the moment's outside of your kind of comfort zone what are you what are doing that's kind of pushing you because we all we're i think it's important to share because people will look at you and think oh these guys so successful and everything we all are pushing that boundary right yeah so a couple of things the first thing is obviously dragon's den which I've, you know, I've done podcasting before, but I control this.

[223] And there's, you know, there's not four point something million people watching.

[224] I mean, we've got close to your time, but I control this.

[225] So, and I know how this works.

[226] This is my domain.

[227] Dragon's Den, when you're set with five panelists, the one on your left has been there 20 years, one on your right's been there 15.

[228] And there's massive cameras swinging.

[229] There's this lift door swings open and all of this.

[230] And then you're, you know, all of the dynamics to consider trying to learn, and trying to learn how to play my role in this show while also trying to analyze the business and decide whether I want to give my money to this business within a short period of time.

[231] It's a lot.

[232] That's outside I come to soon, DJing, as you can see over there.

[233] I'm learning to DJ and I'm going to do a show this year.

[234] So outside my comfort zone.

[235] We're doing it.

[236] I'll come through.

[237] I love that.

[238] I'll stand in the corner, the back corner, out of the way so they'll notice me, but I'll appreciate you my heart.

[239] this show we're doing in i think it's 12 days away there's you know a thousand people coming to the albert hall it's musical it's i've written the whole thing she chose the music 20 person choir etc etc big show and then my i'll just i don't want to rattle on but my last thing would be my business so i started a company when i was 20 grew it worth 300 million you know very interesting journey now i'm going like 10 times bigger and to play it a 10 times bigger level where you're trying to raise 200 million from the start and grow multi -billion dollar company it requires a completely different set of skills and again you feel in some areas like an imposter yeah but i don't give a fuck because i've always felt this way i've always felt like this like i've always felt like this sounds crazy to say that's how i felt everything i've said my whole life sounded kind of crazy to me yeah until it wasn't yeah so when i say crazy things these days again it's that hindsight of me going well everything else i said so it worked out so it's just you just learned don't you from your experiences that you even though it's a different uncomfortable zone that you're in you got through your last uncomfortable zone and you came out stronger from and even if and that's important even if you failed at that time you still survived it's still here you're still breathing you still get you got up and you're going again and that's important that's the important point from it and it's interesting you're hearing like i'm started my business prescribed, which is a very much smaller business, the bath bombs that we're doing self -care, which is very exciting.

[240] But that's a very uncomfortable zone for me. I mean, you know, I have surrounded myself with a team that have experience in different areas, and I recognize that it is an area that is new to me. But even with the right people around you, it's quite scary.

[241] So, you know, but it's exciting as well.

[242] I think that's a big thing I've learned.

[243] I've learned to enjoy that feeling of being uncomfortable.

[244] My mom has a great saying, actually, and she said this for many, many years.

[245] I love it.

[246] Get comfortable, being uncomfortable.

[247] I think that's a really great point.

[248] I mean, you never are quite.

[249] I mean, it doesn't, it's an imperfect statement, but it does, I kind of get that.

[250] It's like in the hospital, for example, right?

[251] It's like in the hospital, okay, you start as a first year medical student, right?

[252] And you've never taken blood in your life.

[253] I don't know, you know, to get the needle into the vein, taking the blood test, right?

[254] Honestly, my hands shaking when I had to do the first blood test, and real person.

[255] I thought, no, I'm out.

[256] I can't do this.

[257] I'm not made for it.

[258] I'm an imposter.

[259] What am I doing here?

[260] Get me out of here.

[261] And then, you know, you do it 10 times, like, oh, that's fine.

[262] And then you build up.

[263] And then the first time, you know, when you're, say, a 50 -a -med student, and you're doing your first CPR on a cardiac arrest patient, helping out in recess and in the A &E department, like, oh, my God, this is too much.

[264] What am I doing here?

[265] You do it a few times.

[266] It's fine.

[267] And you just, you just, every margin you gain, you get better at something and but it always happens i mean even consultants say we've been doing it been studying for between study and working for 15 20 years and they say the first day of the consultant they feel like their first day at med school again i i think there's something really interesting now so i want to ask you a question on that that taking the blood from the veins as a junior doctor how would you feel in terms of fulfillment and i'm this is i'm totally leaving you to a place that i want to ask another question but how would you feel in terms of fulfillment if you're a junior doctor they said okay today Alex we're going to take blood from a vein and then you had to do that exact same thing for 20 years so first day you're shitting it oh my god no no no shaking hands take the blood second day a little bit more comfortable third day look more comfortable with it how would you feel in 20 years time yeah doing the same thing every day yeah i think you you need to i think self -development's very important and feeling that you're adding layers to your skill set or whatever, we're talking about medicine here, but it can be anything in life.

[268] I think that variation and variety is very important and feeling that you're pushing.

[269] Basically, you're feeling that you're pushing yourself.

[270] Yeah.

[271] And I think that's the idea of, because at the end of the day, the struggle of life and the challenges in life, getting over them is what gives you that sense of reward.

[272] If you don't have a struggle, if there isn't any struggle, if life was completely easy, if you woke up with 50 million quid in the bank and there are no challenges at all, you'd be very bored, actually, I think, you know, and I enjoy, there's always a balance, because you don't want too much struggle because that's or too much hardship and if i if a and e was making me cry everything clearly i wouldn't want to be there but yeah i think that it's good to have that increasing mounting challenge you know and that's exactly what i was alluding to which is that that worthwhile struggle is achieved by stepping out being uncomfortable as your mother said so we know that worthwhile struggle is so critically important to being fulfilled in life as you've said and that worthwhile struggle, like showing up that first day or then advancing is achieved by being uncomfortable.

[273] So if we reason from there, we can say being uncomfortable is the reason why you achieve worthwhile struggle, which is the reason why you achieve fulfillment.

[274] And this is part of what I was alluding to, which is people that avoid the uncomfortable piece, which is at the very start of that chain, then don't get the worthwhile fulfillment, which comes from the challenge.

[275] But also, they stay in situations which are no longer serving them, relationships, jobs.

[276] And that again, because they're like, oh my God, I got uncertainty of jumping off this cliff and going into uncertainty is just, and then they, and then they have midlife crises and mental health challenges.

[277] And so that's why I'm just so passionate about it's the whole idea around fearing less, I think.

[278] People are often, it's, and I, I love psychology.

[279] I read a lot of, I've, I've read power of now, you know, the secret, all the kind of classic ones, but I've, you know, I'm really into that kind of mindset theory.

[280] And it, a lot of people are very afraid the next situation they might find themselves in will be more painful or difficult in their current situation but in reality often you find that the change you're going to experience isn't as bad as you think it is it's the idea of like you know the the analogy of having a Ferrari on your drive right and you get your Ferrari and the first day you're so excited about it and you think oh my god I'm going to be like so happy about this car and this is going to be so excited about it's going to be incredible it's massive house but every day that kind of that you return to the baseline level of happiness That's what you're experiencing is pleasure, isn't it?

[281] And I say, for film, it's a pleasure.

[282] And that will come down.

[283] Obviously, the Ferrari, after a certain amount of time, you might love it, and I love my cars, but I'm not going to be jumping up and down every morning.

[284] Every time I see the car, it's eventually going to come back to the baseline.

[285] And equally, you know, people worry on the opposite end, and say you're really, really worried about, I don't know, changing your job, and you're really worried that you might, you know, you might start this new job, but you can be really bad at it, and it's going to be so difficult every day, you know, I'm just not going to be prepared or whatever.

[286] And then you start the job, and the first few days can be really scary, you might feel really uncomfortable, and it's really challenging, but you will come back to that baseline of it being okay.

[287] And if you look at relationships, people worry, oh, I'm in this relationship.

[288] What if I break up in this relationship and the next one isn't as good, or I'm not as happy or regret it?

[289] I think I've really messed up.

[290] What have I done?

[291] But actually, your fear, when they actually do it, they go, actually, it was fine.

[292] I wasn't meant to stay in that relationship.

[293] You know, I was actually staying in a place of fear and fearing too much rather than going, well, actually, if you stand to reason, you know, my current situation is far from perfect.

[294] to be in it.

[295] Why should the next situation be any worse?

[296] I completely agree with everything you're saying.

[297] In fact, I sent one of my best friends a quote last night that I'd written because of the situation he was in and I think it kind of exemplifies what we're saying.

[298] I said, if you want to avoid making the same mistakes twice, make more decisions based on your past memories and less decisions based on your current emotions.

[299] And what I was trying to say there is that in the moment, when you're in that relationship or you're in that toxic job situation, you'll be like suffocated and imprisoned by your own fear of uncertainty or failure or I'll never meet someone as good as this or whatever it is.

[300] But you've always got through it.

[301] You've been in love.

[302] Like with me, I was convinced from the age of 12 that I was going to marry Jasmine and then at 14 I was convinced it was Helen and then at 16 I was like I've always thought that this person was the one.

[303] In the moment I've always thought this is it and look at me moving on to number seven and thinking this is it.

[304] You can't of hold on to your current situation because ultimately we always go well actually my current situation i'm in i'm not in pain i've got food and water i feel okay it's not that terrible what if the next situation whatever that might be work or otherwise life or others what if that is worse than my current one we always fear the fear the unknown but it's that it's like the i hope i'm quite quoting the right the right genius i think it was einstein that said that um you know the the the is the definition of insanity is repeating the same action or it's roughly along the to be in the same action, expecting a different outcome.

[305] You know, if you, you know, one plus one is always going to be two.

[306] So, you know, if you're having that same outcome and frustrated with it, you have to change something in your equation to bring something different.

[307] Amen.

[308] We were talking about failure there, and, you know, that led us on to talk about university.

[309] And you, you subtly said that there was a part of university which you didn't enjoy.

[310] Yeah, I think, I don't think anyone in life lives an entire life of having just being happy all the time.

[311] Everything's great and having periods of being.

[312] flat or sad or losing itself and I think my time for that up to date I think was probably at university I was at my fourth year everything going great studies going great it was on for doing really well and I actually was based so I went to university in peninsula which is extra in Plymouth but we do placements all the way around that kind of peninsula yeah yeah yeah and I loved my time there but I got sent down to Truro to hospital there and I love the hospital of people everyone was fantastic but I was kind of away from friends, I was in a place that I just, I just felt quite isolated.

[313] And I actually suspect I'm probably just putting it on that as a place of reason.

[314] But for whatever reason, I just become quite flat and I lost interest in my exercise, stopped exercising my studies even.

[315] I'm like, I wasn't really working as much as I should have been.

[316] Sleep went out the window.

[317] I was saying up late, getting up, getting up late, eating bad.

[318] I just lost myself in time.

[319] I became quite unhappy.

[320] And I kept really quiet about it.

[321] Didn't tell anyone because this is terrible.

[322] I was going to be a doctor.

[323] I need to be like really, really strong.

[324] how can you be a caring professional if you can't take care of yourself?

[325] So I left it a long time, probably like six, seven months of feeling pretty damn miserable.

[326] To the point where eventually I was like, I need to do something.

[327] But I was like, I can't speak to the med school because they might think, this guy, we've got to have to hold him back or something, you can't be a doctor.

[328] That's not true.

[329] And actually look back and think that was, you know, sadly that's a big part of the stigma around mental health.

[330] But that wasn't true.

[331] But at the time, I felt that way.

[332] So I called, who a lot of people relate to this, what do you do in a situation of trouble?

[333] call my mum.

[334] And I said, you know, it was a big outpour of emotion.

[335] I was like, this is, you know, this is what's happening.

[336] I feel dreadful.

[337] And she said, well, look, there's a few things we're going to do.

[338] We're going to talk every single day and start speaking about the thoughts and the things you're having, I've beaten myself up a lot and about insensitive and weak and all this stuff.

[339] I said, let's talk about this stuff.

[340] And secondly, let's start getting you doing the things that you know that are good for you.

[341] You know, she's like, you've stopped doing all the anchors in your life that keep you feeling good.

[342] It's pretty wise for it.

[343] She's not a doctor, you know, she works in the bank, but very wise woman, clearly.

[344] I'd like to think so.

[345] And she said, look, start doing those things again.

[346] So I thought, you're right.

[347] You know, she'd make sense.

[348] So I'll go for a walk every day.

[349] So I get the actual light and the benefits of being outside in nature.

[350] Let's start exercising again.

[351] So I create an exercise routine.

[352] I was like, I'm eating crappy, I mean, rubbish food.

[353] Let's start cooking again.

[354] I make my own food rather than just getting ready meals.

[355] And I was like, let's, I'm not really connecting with people.

[356] So let's plan stuff.

[357] I started making plans with my friends.

[358] And I also had an idea.

[359] I was like, well, actually, you know, to help me feel less isolated.

[360] Let's call a different friend every day.

[361] some people that haven't spoke to for years and just chat to them.

[362] And all these little things, all these microchanges added up within literally weeks to like transforming how I felt.

[363] I got my Zasta Leviv back.

[364] I had my energy back.

[365] I was like, I'm back to that kind of type A, you know, happy, forceful person to kind of go out and really make the most of each day.

[366] And I think I've learned so much from that.

[367] I've learned from that throughout my time post -university.

[368] But also I've learned about that in terms of what I think people kind of don't understand about health.

[369] And, you know, when I was at, when I was working at Lewisham Hospital, I still work there now in A &E, so many people that I see, so many patients come in.

[370] And I realize that they've not been given the tools through education and school, but understanding how to actually look after themselves.

[371] You know, we taught so much at school about maths and English and history and whatever, but no one tells you about why sleep is actually so important to your productivity, your self -worth, your happiness, that sleep is not actually a state of just being sedated.

[372] You're actually in a creative space.

[373] The idea that, you know, nutrition can actually help you feel better, not just like just for having a diet or whatever that people kind of see it as, you know, the role of exercise, all these different things.

[374] I'm like, but these things actually do matter because these things are not going to keep your, keep you physically healthy, keep you mentally healthy as well.

[375] And that's where, you know, the book Live Well came from.

[376] I wrote that book because I felt those are the things that no one taught me in school.

[377] And even at med school, you know, we focus on anatomy, physiology and pathology, looking at diseases and treatments.

[378] But we didn't do enough, in my opinion, about these fundamental things around sexual health, physical health, in terms of, you know, sleep, exercise, passion and purpose.

[379] You know, a big reason we go to school surely is to find what our purpose and what we want to do in life.

[380] No one kind of gives you any tools I don't think to figure out what that is.

[381] You know, I was lucky to find my kind of sense of purpose.

[382] I was kind of stumbled upon it, you know, based on some of my interests.

[383] I was kind of lucky.

[384] And I really felt that that those kind of bits, you know, that's why I wrote that book.

[385] I felt that that is the stuff that I wish people had told me when I was younger, you know.

[386] So I've got a couple of points here.

[387] When you went through that phase in university, would you classify yourself as being depressed at that point?

[388] I would look back and I'd say I was depressed, at low energy, my mood was poor, my sleep was disturbed, lack of interest in my hobbies and stuff.

[389] There's plenty of kind of tick boxes for being in that category.

[390] I said I had mild to depression at the time, mild to moderate depression and you said there that and this is because i mean it speaks volumes to me what you said after which was that people what i heard was that people don't understand the full range of the causes of depression yeah and i've sat here twice now with johanna harry do you know johanahari yeah yeah yeah lost connections and um i went through the years and i've said this before but i went through the years not not believing this idea that we were just being born broken and understanding that the only thing that's really changed in humans over the last, let's say, 20 years is the world we live in.

[391] And the way we live, right?

[392] The way that society has conditioned us to live more lonely, as you've written about in this book.

[393] And I read about, you know, less meaningful connections, less purpose in our lives, less exercise.

[394] We're getting more stagnant over the last 50 years than ever before.

[395] Yeah.

[396] And so one of the questions I was planning on asking you today, but you kind of answered it there, but I'm going to ask it again anyway is what are the biggest misconceptions about maintaining good mental health and or what's causing bad mental health that you have in your opinion well i think if you look at what human's designed to do we're designed to uh be out well we should be outside mostly you know we will create shelters and things but most of our day should be in natural light uh we should be uh you know going out and searching and foraging and finding our food food as part of the team so we're usually in a family a group, a clan, to tribe, to then get your, to get your food.

[397] We're supposed to feel that sense of purpose within within our tribe.

[398] So someone is generally a leader, the people that health, it's people with different skills, but you feel a sense of belonging to that tribe.

[399] We should be eating food that comes from the earth, that's not processed food, that we certainly wouldn't do as part of, part of nature.

[400] We get plenty of exercise as part of our day, you know, foraging, hunting, doing whatever building.

[401] You look at modern life and flip that round and go, a lot of us spend our times in boxes inside, without any natural light, glued to phones, not connected with people, often feeling that we don't have our sense of purpose and not really understanding, you know, why we feel that that way.

[402] You know, a lot of things in modern life are pulling us away from good quality sleep, giving us bad sleep.

[403] They're putting us towards fast foods and processed foods away from natural sources of, you know, good quality food that fuels our body.

[404] And if you look at all that and you think about it in that way, it makes a lot of sense why people feel quite lost, they don't know why they feel a certain way.

[405] And I think we just need to kind of step back and go, let's educate.

[406] And this is why, you know, what the work I'm doing in the youth mental health role, I'm focusing on education so much.

[407] You know, and we've made five well -being videos for this summer as part of the summer school program, which are going to go out to all the schools in UK, and we're looking at sleep, we're looking at exercise, we're looking at nutrition, we're looking at managing social media and what to do when you're not feeling good in yourself.

[408] and within those videos and within the toolkits we're giving, I'm hoping there's a lot of stuff in the people go, wow, I didn't realize that about sleep and why that's important or why I need to get natural light, why I need to get outside.

[409] So I think so much of that stuff comes together.

[410] I'm not saying that the cause of mental illness is always related to lifestyle.

[411] That is obviously not true.

[412] There's a huge amount out there that's, you know, to do with genetics and disease.

[413] You can't blame lifestyle for all disease, but I do think it's a big part of it.

[414] And if you look at what happens when you go to your doctor and say, I'm depressed, I need help.

[415] The first thing we look at is lifestyle.

[416] And we combine that with other treatments if needed, regardless of that disease.

[417] And actually, even when you're looking at severe forms of mental illness, the lifestyle factor will always remain really, really important.

[418] Because without that, I don't think the treatments can do it alone.

[419] It has to be a combination thing.

[420] But this is what, you know, I know, there's so many people out there, not necessarily depressed, but they're just a low mood of just anadone.

[421] They just don't feel themselves.

[422] They're just a bit lost.

[423] And I think a lot of it comes back to the things I talk about in that book.

[424] I couldn't agree more.

[425] And when I, because I agree so much, I've tried to figure out how one would from their, you know, from their apartment here in Shortwich do something to help.

[426] And because it's such a fundamental issue about the way we've chosen to live our lives, you know, illuminated glass screens to date, to order food, to move around.

[427] As you said, isolated four white walls.

[428] these like you can't tear that down surely so i like we i reflect and go we would literally have to rethink the way we live our entire lives the foundations in which our lives are built in order to solve this problem that's genuinely what i think to to truly solve this problem we'd have to redesign our society i think so i think we and even i think as a whole i think that's a big part of the solution but as an individual if you're sitting within this space you know in you're living in the world we're in now right you can't get a social media it's part of work.

[429] It's literally part of the mouthpiece of a lot of the stuff that we do, for example.

[430] You can't get rid of that.

[431] So what is the answer?

[432] It's about adapting and making sure that you are aware in your life of these principles and thinking about how you can actually adapt your life to make sure you're incorporating that.

[433] For example, stuff like I know if I don't go for walk each day and get natural light and just feel that I'm about around in nature, I get anxious, I feel a sense of just like being not at ease.

[434] So I make sure every morning, I get up in the morning, first thing, do every day is go for a walk, out for a walk in nature.

[435] I move.

[436] It's great for productivity.

[437] I get great ideas sometimes when I'm thinking and walking some bad ones as well.

[438] But generally there's being out and about.

[439] It's brilliant for that.

[440] You know, I make sure that the end of each day, I again, get outside and I move, but also I do my exercise at the end of the day.

[441] It signifies the end of my, like, working day.

[442] You know, I plan things, meaningful connections with my friends and family now more than ever.

[443] Like, it's so easy just to chat on the phone and FaceTime.

[444] I'm like, now that we can more safely with the pandemic, you know, make time.

[445] for the people around you see them in person do things with them in in meaningful ways talking about sleep you know the whole like sleep when a dead idea and a lot of i think you know you talk you'd talk to obviously a lot very successful business people and sometimes the slightly negative side of the work that that life is not finding that balance of sleep and i and i know the things i'm juggling as well that can be difficult but i i really really value and understand that if i don't have my eight -hour sleep and good quality sleep i'm not going to be as productive i won't actually be as creative and I probably won't be as successful the things I'm doing.

[446] So it's just making those changes, you know, and just being aware.

[447] Once you're aware of a problem, you talked in an episode before, but we talked about exercising between for the summer, summer shape, right, being in the summer body, right?

[448] I would call it, not calling out here.

[449] Like a keeper full of eyes.

[450] Yeah, no, exactly.

[451] But you, but part of an, for me, same for me as well.

[452] I went, well, why is that?

[453] Why are we doing that?

[454] As soon as you're aware of the why, and why we're doing something.

[455] We then, through that awareness, modify, and we realize all of a sudden we modify our behaviour.

[456] It's kind of idea if I say to you, right, focus on your breathing.

[457] It's like, or like think about your breath.

[458] All of a sudden you start controlling your breathing.

[459] You're aware of it.

[460] You're making a conscious decision around that subject.

[461] So I think just having that knowledge, have that understanding and be aware of what it's doing to your life.

[462] Some of it might, you might incorporate something.

[463] You think, actually, I'm fine in that sense.

[464] But think about it.

[465] You're so that's such a good point.

[466] and you know like up until so the example you gave just for reference sake is um i always the reason why i was always unsuccessful in the gym is because i was my goal was to get to look good for summer so when i looked good or summer ended my why was gone and i and i was and it was a cycle that just repeated every single year but i think most of us feel that i mean most of us have been there and done that haven't we but your point there was the thing that cured it was the self -awareness of my own cycle and without the self -awareness in the education which i think you've you've done a tremendous job in this book of educating people on.

[467] We, as it relates to the point we're making about the society we live in and how it's broken, you will literally be a puppet to the society and the society will be your puppet master.

[468] It will tell you, the notifications on your phone will tell you when you can sleep and it will tell you how to communicate and form meaningful connections.

[469] Use Tinder.

[470] It will orchestrate your life for you.

[471] And I think what you're saying there is, which I completely agree with is self -awareness allows you to take back control and be intentional about these critically important areas of your health.

[472] And then if you want any more kind of evidence of how much it controls it, think about, you know, what when I, if I said someone now, right, don't have your phone in the bedroom tonight.

[473] I mean, for most people, I don't speak for everyone, but a lot of people who are doing this for me, I'm not doing that anxiety around the thought of not having your phone in the bedroom.

[474] It's like, why is that such a big thing?

[475] It's not a problem to have the phone outside the room.

[476] Why do you really need it?

[477] But it shows our attachment to tech and to the modern life, you know, we don't.

[478] need that phone.

[479] And actually, when I was on Love Island, the best thing about going on Love Island, so I didn't have a phone for nearly nine weeks.

[480] That was the best thing about it.

[481] I literally say that.

[482] It was great being at the sunshine.

[483] But that actually was amazing.

[484] It was like a real, like, wow.

[485] And now I've come back, we're so attached to it again.

[486] And it's something I'm working on.

[487] I'm conscious, I need to start putting my phone out of my bedroom.

[488] I've done it a few times, but it just creeps back in.

[489] But I'm aware of it now.

[490] And then I think that's a big starting point for fixing a problem, just knowing it's there.

[491] Speaking of Love Island, when you came out of Love Island, I heard that you went and did some therapy.

[492] Yeah.

[493] Tell me about your thinking there and what inspired that.

[494] When you look at risks for deterioration in mental health or mental illness, one of the biggest things we talk about is change and big life change, changes.

[495] And people sometimes think that means bad things.

[496] It means good and bad.

[497] Like, for example, you could have been given your dream job in London and you're from Leeds.

[498] Now, that's the goal and what's happening is your dream.

[499] You've had that job, but it means a big life upheaval.

[500] a new flat thing away from family friends so even good things can bring problems right so when i came out of the show i was like wow i've been through i was quite aware i've been through quite a big thing i've gone from you know 200 followers on instagram to one million in in nine weeks you know i'm not someone from social media i don't understand it at all it was all completely new the life had changed and now being stopped you know by everyone in the street which is something so different for me and i was like i need to process this so that's why i went to therapy i think it was one of the best things i've done i kind of had to kind of like unpick what I was going through and it was almost like a such a big shock to the system and it really really helped me and I'd say to anyone you know everyone should have a therapist I actually think you know everyone needs a therapist in life and it's one of the things that I think the Americans have really got right the thing that we could learn from is that it's so much more open just talk about things and what you're going through and people are very happy to say I'm getting therapy you know and it wasn't because I was particularly going through a difficult time I just was aware.

[501] I've had quite a big change.

[502] Very self -aware of you to even, to even want to do that.

[503] Because as you say, you weren't struggling tremendously in that moment, but you were, it was almost preemptive, I guess.

[504] Yeah.

[505] Yeah.

[506] I just kind of was like, this is just, you know, kind of, sorry, it's a word of crazy.

[507] It's like, this is a crazy thing to go for.

[508] I need to kind of, kind of process this.

[509] And it really, it really helped me because I went back to unpicking about, like, who am I?

[510] What do I want in life?

[511] What do I want to achieve in my life?

[512] it allowed me to kind of consider those things as well as dealing with like okay what's it like you know for people to recognize you all this kind of stuff and and it really helped me and going back to that kind of purpose point i kind of had this kind of big life shift of like what is my purpose now because i've trained or i've wanted to be adopted since age of about 13 i've tried on all that training and all past all those exams i've actually pretty happy at 27 years old being a doctor you know i've got a good life and what i'm doing i enjoy it now i've got this whole new thing what is my purpose and it really helped me kind of figure that out and one of the biggest things and the most important things I did was going back to to work you know I went back to A &E after a couple of months and to kind of to kind of just get back into that kind of what the sense of me was and from doing that actually it gave me the purpose for everything else and all the things that I do and all the things of the books the podcast the the you know the other bits of pieces that I'm doing my life it all stems off that purpose and I think I was very lucky to have that therapy and I'm glad that I had it to help me figure out what I was going to do.

[513] Christ, because in that moment coming out of Love Island, you have more options than ever.

[514] But more options also gives you, it brings the possibilities of making a lot of mistakes.

[515] For example, you know, and I, again, I don't, I'm not saying it's any kind of site at all different, everyone's different, but for me, I was not going to come out and do club appearances or, you know, do those kind of things.

[516] because it's a, I'm an introvert, I'd have hated it, as you probably realized by now.

[517] But secondly, it would have drawn away from what I actually, what my purpose was and what I really wanted to achieve.

[518] So, you know, and I'm very wise advice I received coming out of the show.

[519] It's a wise advice I received when it came out of the show was, you know, say no to most things.

[520] You know, if you're saying yes to more things, you're saying, no, you're probably doing something wrong.

[521] And I had to kind of channel that.

[522] And it was a risk in it sometimes.

[523] I could have made a ton of money going to club peers.

[524] The most I was offered was like 10 grand to go to a club, right, just for half an hour, 40 minutes or something.

[525] And I said no to every single one of them.

[526] I've never, ever done one.

[527] But by doing that and channing my energy into things that I care about and putting my time into the projects that kind of matter and give me that longevity and the direction I want to be in, that was very important.

[528] And as I say, I think a big part of figuring that all out was therapy that really helped me, I think.

[529] It's really interesting as well is when you take when you drift away from yourself you almost don't notice it happening because you just take one of those club PAs and then you know someone like oh we'll get him back next week and then they tell the club down the road and they get you down there and then they go well I've got a friend that maybe he can do some you know this or that the other and it's just this slow sort of swaying from from yourself from who you are and this happens with a lot of people and you know sometimes it happens I mean yours was huge temptation in terms of like financial temptation some people it's you know their mom telling them that they should be a lawyer and they go well you know i do then and then they get 10 years down the line and they've swayed so far from who they are that they've lost that sense of their purpose they don't even know the way back it's almost but their their new identity their false identity has become so much part of them that they don't know how to they've built this group of friends that's the other thing because then it's reinforced by the people you then associate with you get the wrong type of people around you And then it's hard to get back, right?

[530] I believe in that kind of, you know, not law of attraction, but, you know, if you move in a certain direction, you take a step in a certain direction, you will move in that direction.

[531] And the further steps you take, you move further into that direction, and you will attract people that are moving in that same direction.

[532] And that's fine if it's going in the direction you want to, but if it's not, you can end up in a place you don't want to be.

[533] And that's why the number one first chapter that I do talk about is that passion and purpose, the purpose idea.

[534] How do you find your purpose?

[535] you know and a lot of people ask that question and i think it's that idea you've got to look at your like values your experiences your beliefs your your interests and and find that intersection between those you know what are your actual talents you know where where does that all kind of lie i think you've always got time to change that direction i think when you're if you're in your in life and you're doing law but you wanted to do i don't know you want to be an artist or whatever well you know why first of all you know what do you need to what what you need to do to get to that position I do believe that modern life, unfortunately, does create a lot of boundaries and you can't do this or that.

[536] You can't change your direction.

[537] If you're in this direction, you can't go in the opposite.

[538] And I think that's such a shame, and we should change that.

[539] Look at medicine, for example.

[540] I mean, imagine that eyebrows raised when I moved in the complete opposite direction.

[541] You know, I don't mean this.

[542] I hope it doesn't come across this way, but a lot of the things I've done haven't been done before by someone that's, you know, a junior doctor that's going through those ranks.

[543] It's a first, certainly in this country, the Dr. Mike has done something similar in America.

[544] but in this country it's quite different and but I hope that people what will take from that is that actually you can change you don't have to go down a certain path and if you're not happy with the path you're going down what are you going to do to change it you know what are your goals write it all down I still do it now every now and then when I'm feeling a bit oh I need to you know think about where I go with things or I just need to have a moment I write down all my thoughts my goals but ideas sometimes I just word vomit onto paper whatever I'm just thinking the moment and then I leave that piece of paper for a day or so and I come back and I look at it and sometimes you what is written down here I start circling stuff and I start thinking about what how does that connect why did I write that what what am I thinking about when I'm looking at that and and then from that you draw take away that word vomit and make a new list of like you know what is my purpose number one you can you know what is my number one purpose that I want that what is my purpose and then you know under that put your goals you know how am I going to achieve that what are my goals what are my aims how am I going to put into practice and it's just a simple thing actually.

[545] It's so easy you need a pen and a blank piece of paper.

[546] But I think everyone should do that so often.

[547] I mean, in business, they talk about the five -year plan and all this kind of stuff.

[548] I think just as an individual, just get out of your head sometimes, you know, get it out on paper, know what you're doing, am I happy, do want to change it?

[549] Am I following?

[550] When I write down my purpose, am I actually doing that?

[551] Am I doing my purpose?

[552] But also, if I'm not, what am I doing to achieve it?

[553] Because if you're not doing anything that will get you to that purpose, then what you're doing.

[554] There's something, what you're describing that is you're like, interrogating yourself you're interrogating your thoughts your your your underlying reasons why you're thinking things maybe thinking of pursuing things and in a world where there is this constant whispering this external whispering which is saying you should be an influencer you should be a YouTuber that's the people will love you more if you're a millionaire and that is we're exposed to that every hour of every day no matter where we look this external thing telling you what your purpose is yeah what the best purpose is yeah and we know that as you're saying, purpose is subjective, mine's different from yours.

[555] But the world has a very clear idea of what the best purpose is.

[556] It's very interesting.

[557] It's a very interesting thought.

[558] And this is why I'm such a big advocate of this like interrogation.

[559] In fact, that's what's, it's cured, it's, it's saved me in my life because 18 years old, I want, my diary, it said, Rangrover, hot girlfriend, million pounds before I'm, literally said, million pounds before I'm 25, Rangrover Sport.

[560] That's, those were my goals and life came from a place of insecurity.

[561] obviously, I was, therefore I was susceptible to that whispering, telling me what the best purpose and the way to, millionaires are the way to happiness is.

[562] But without that interrogation you've described, you will go with that voice because it's fucking loud.

[563] Right.

[564] So there has to be a counter voice.

[565] And by putting it on paper, you're really attacking that external narrative, which is, it threatens to lead you astray, right?

[566] Yeah.

[567] And I think it's, it's that idea, like you said, life is trying to, all that you've got influences within your life, like friends and family they have common beliefs what your mom wanted you to do or whatever and that directs you then as you say you got this massive it's loud and quiet and that's the problem is like an undertone and a loud kind of barb is saying do this this is what what should make you happy i think that interrogation is very important i think anyone listening to this ask yourself honestly when is the last time you genuinely sat down i thought about what you want to do in life what actually is your purpose what makes you happy what is peace what what does peace mean to you you know and and if you haven't done it in the last year or so.

[568] Do it.

[569] Take that piece of papers.

[570] All you need, pen and a paper is very easy task.

[571] It's not a complex one.

[572] Write it down.

[573] It's amazing.

[574] It's such a, it's a really enriching and motivating process.

[575] And again, the key thing is not like, it's not like, yes, I'm achieving it.

[576] It's not about that.

[577] And it's about going, well, you know, what direction am I going in?

[578] If it's not the direction I want, what am I going to do to change it basically?

[579] I can't.

[580] Yeah.

[581] So, and to do it often as well, because again, you're going to log in often to Instagram and you're going to be exposed to that external voice often.

[582] So I think the practice has to, the counterpractice has to be done often as well, which is that re -centering to self, right?

[583] And I think, yeah, absolutely.

[584] And I think when you're talking about the Instagram, the voices, the noise that you're seeing online, particularly on that notes.

[585] And I try and tell everyone this, go through your feed.

[586] If you haven't done it recently, go through your followers and unfollow anyone that doesn't serve your hobbies, your interests, your beliefs, your passions.

[587] it's amazing how much we collect people that we're following that actually make us feel bad they're giving us the wrong noises they're making us kind of judge ourselves harshly or that's your body type or what they're achieving or they just annoy you unfollow it your feet if you're going to have this noise have it as a noise that reflects your purpose your passion your hobbies your beliefs and i think that will for a lot of people make a big difference you're going to have the noise have the good noise oh my god i don't um i can't explain how important that advice is just thinking logically if you go in your phone at the moment you probably see then i probably spend several hours a day on social media that is several hours potentially polluting my my brain with junk values yeah making myself feel like shit there that is mental self -harm and and i so once upon a time quite literally i once upon a time i made that decision and so what you know because people listening to this they'll say well you know Alex i can't unfollow this person because they are my friend or my work colleague but you can hit the mute you can mute them yeah meet them i'm 90 95 percent of people in my timeline genuine on my instagram but 95 percent of people are muted and i'm exposed now i was going going hang on i thought you're like am i one in the 10 am i one in 10 i'm not what's your stories there's your own sense but not in your stories then you're unfortunately you're muted and it just is what it is we've all got to protect ourselves i agree no honestly that that 100 percent if you can't follow, mute them, just curate your feed, have it to be what you want to be.

[588] It's not just about the business or influence, it's about just general life.

[589] Let's be honest, most people spend a couple of hours in your phones and make that a couple of hours either enjoyable or useful or funny, you know, and the same with like TikTok and stuff.

[590] I use TikTok most of it just for a bit of fun.

[591] So I follow mostly like cats doing stupid stuff or whatever.

[592] It makes me laugh.

[593] So just it goes back to the kind of interrogating, why are you using that platform?

[594] Why are using that social media?

[595] Is it serving your purpose?

[596] And trying, genuinely, it's not easy, but trying try and create those boundaries if you if i was going to say to anyone about boundaries around using your phone try and protect the last and first hour of each day the first hour is very hard because people get up in the morning you up and i'm sure you're looking at you like oh god you know and even if you can do it to protect the first 20 30 minutes because the first thing people do when you wake in the morning and there's a lot of um um scientific thoughts around this we are a blank canvas a blank piece of paper we are so vulnerable actually in the morning to our day being dictated based on what we see and what influences our day.

[597] So if you pick up your phone, you see your ex -girlfriend or you see something or, you know, Trump has said something, or there's a news piece that's really triggering you.

[598] You are, you're allowing external factors to dictate the start of your day.

[599] When you're talking about being productive, creative and hitting the day and winning at the day, that's not a good start.

[600] So if you can get up in the morning, leave the phone for the first 15 minutes.

[601] If it's an urgent message, fine.

[602] But get up, have your coffee, have your shower, do your ex -house, have your walk, or whatever, then open your phone.

[603] Even if you can do it for 15 minutes to start with, it makes a huge difference.

[604] And I find that benefit.

[605] Protect that morning and the evening, protect, you know, give that time.

[606] Because what people don't realize often is that what we see in the last kind of hour at night dictates a lot of what goes on our brains.

[607] If you are watching triggering stuff on TikTok, even if it's funny stuff, that is going to influence what your brain is doing from then on.

[608] So think about what you're putting in front of your eyes before bed.

[609] I need to stop watching all these bloody murder documentaries before.

[610] before sleep that's all I fall asleep watching a murder documentary I'd say 90 % of the time and that's no exaggeration what are they say about CEOs something you said that is really interesting and this could be a tough question so um you talked about the you know Instagram giving um false unhealthy false comparisons love Island is the same how do you kind of like um having been on the show How do I find peace with it?

[611] Yeah.

[612] It's interesting because there's two sides to it.

[613] I think that people watch Love Island for escapism and a lot of people watch it and don't kind of, it doesn't go past that level of just like just easy watching fun stuff that you're seeing.

[614] But then for some people, they're seeing these bodies and it is affecting their belief and their value within themselves.

[615] And that is what worries me. And a big, no, I sit on the ITV board for mental health.

[616] So one of the things we're really looking at, now is that we should be reflecting on particularly reality TV society as a whole, both in kind of diversity, you know, in terms of backgrounds, you know, but also body image as well, you know, and I think that's the direction we should be moving in very importantly.

[617] And something that I've really said before this series of Love Island, we've got to see that it reflects society as a whole, you know, whether they follow that advice, that's down to them kind of thing.

[618] But, you know, my real worry is that, you know, for some people, it does send out that, that, that, message but you know I it's difficult I went on the show as myself pretty much the one regret I had as going on the show is I think I probably trained very much for the show if I did it now I'd still train but I'd probably do it less worrying about being like ripped or whatever but it is interesting because you know most people would say if they went on TV in that way they want to feel comfortable I think there's a balance of feeling comfortable in your own skin but why but not to the extent extreme that I went to you know I was training so hard and stuff I was worrying about it too much.

[619] Now I'd be a bit much more like, you know.

[620] They'd want to feel comfortable is an interesting thing because the reason they wouldn't feel uncomfortable is again because of what society's told us what you should look like.

[621] Yeah.

[622] I think Love Island's success is kind of is somewhat linked to the Instagram culture we live in.

[623] It feels like if Instagram was a show, it would be Love Island.

[624] Yeah.

[625] And it's kind of what I mean by the comfort, I guess.

[626] It's about what you or where you feel that you want to be within your, within yourself.

[627] like at the moment I'm probably carrying a few more pounds and I'm happy with I like I know that I move better in that way I feel more comfortable in that way and it's just being happy than yourself but not being influenced that I I don't I'm not bothered though I have a six pack you know I don't I wouldn't feel that now I don't I wouldn't feel that now I don't feel that I'm actually very happy just to be lean you have to move to you know feel energized and stuff and that is what comfortable would mean to me now but at the time because I felt like oh I needed to look with the abs and everything that that I was like very very much actually out of my comfort.

[628] You know, I was restricting my diet huge.

[629] I was over training.

[630] I wasn't spending time with France saying before the show, I didn't see anyone for like 20 weeks.

[631] I found out on the February, I basically went to this interview and had no intention to go on the show.

[632] It just kind of happened from there.

[633] I was off at the place and actually my consultant said, do it.

[634] And I had this obviously noise of Freya.

[635] I had been like, take opportunities.

[636] It's like, all right, can I go for this?

[637] You know, I had 20 weeks between knowing I was going on and going on the show.

[638] Most people apply the show applying the September before, almost a year before.

[639] And in that year before, they're already in, you know, this certain shape and look this certain way.

[640] So I felt a lot of pressure from it.

[641] And I'd say, if I went back, I'd do it differently.

[642] I would do it differently.

[643] But it's easy to say with hindsight, of course.

[644] Very easy to say with hindsight.

[645] Do you think, do you think, do you think, do you think Love Island is good for one's mental health?

[646] Is it good?

[647] I wouldn't say that it adds to people's mental health, no. But in a way, you know, if it's escape isn't that people enjoy and they watch it.

[648] I think the important thing is how people are perceiving what they're seeing.

[649] What you're seeing as a show ultimately, it is just TV, isn't it?

[650] It's how you're perceiving it.

[651] But if you're finding that it's triggering you, don't watch.

[652] It's the same with Instagram and I'm following accounts that not make it feel good or that are not serving your purpose.

[653] If you are, if you find that it's triggering you and how you feel, don't watch it.

[654] I haven't watched this series.

[655] I mean, I have a lot of stuff going on.

[656] I just don't have time to watch the show.

[657] And I'm not missing out.

[658] I don't feel that I'm missing out.

[659] my my issue there is that people people don't know if it the impact it's having and i i remember this study by professor tim kessa who studied um how people's values changed from what they from what they see on the tv and he talks about he does the study with these kids and when kids watch um the example is they watch um some people uh another kid with not so good values playing with a really nice toy yeah and they've and they've shown the the kid watching the show um the advert for the toy they've made the kid really want the toy and And then they've given it to someone with really bad values.

[660] Just because they watch the advert of the toy, the kid will then, from that point onwards, choose to associate with bad values.

[661] So the kid didn't know what was going on.

[662] Right, it's a kid.

[663] It doesn't understand that its values are being swayed just by what it's seeing on the TV.

[664] But then in its life, in the study, the kid will then go and choose bad values over good values.

[665] And it's that, obviously, you know, and to be fair, like, most people aren't as psychologically introspective.

[666] as maybe me and you are.

[667] So they are just...

[668] The thing is, and I guess the point, and I completely see that side of it, and I see that my opinion is good and bad to Love Iron is like those most things like social media.

[669] My point is, if you got rid of Love Iron tomorrow when you cancelled it, it'll be replaced by something else.

[670] It's like social media, you can't, it's out now, like reality TV, these kind of shows are out there.

[671] So what can we do about it?

[672] First of all, let's think about what we're putting on and what we're representing on there.

[673] And second, is educate.

[674] And I think that's why, for example, one of the well -being videos are on social media and a big part of that is like dealing with what you see online body image stuff which actually links and extends like you said from from love island says education is a very important point within that if you're being aware i think that is the part that we can control same with social media we can't get rid of twitter twitter you know there's some good stuff about twitter i think there's a lot about twitter i find it quite triggering a lot of the time can we get rid of it no it's not going anywhere so is it about learning how to manage what's going on in there and working with the social community companies to improve that space, which is what we want to try and do.

[675] Yes, is it also educating people about how to use that tool as well.

[676] And that's the difficult thing.

[677] You know, and ideally, if we get rid of all the bad things in life or things or the elements that are bad, that would be amazing.

[678] But it's some of stuff out there.

[679] We have to just learn to manage and learn, you know, how to deal with.

[680] No, I think you're right.

[681] I think that I think Love Island's definitely a consequence of a culture that is demanding that type of show.

[682] I think you're right.

[683] that if you are to help erode the demand, then you have to kind of go to the root cause of society.

[684] We have to change what people want and that will, the stuff on TV is like exactly said, it just reflects what people are wanting in that moment because that's what they believe the one.

[685] It's like what papers write and what the headlines are.

[686] They're just reflecting what they believe people want to see or what they believe that people will be interested in, I guess.

[687] And reinforcing it.

[688] And reinforce, yeah, exactly.

[689] And reinforcing that cycle.

[690] So by changing and going into, into schools and going, well, actually, why do you need to look like that to be happy?

[691] Does that actually make you happy looking like that?

[692] Is that something to aim for, changing that?

[693] I think that is how we'll change what we see on screen.

[694] And you worked as a doctor throughout COVID.

[695] That is, whoof.

[696] Yeah.

[697] It was, it's odd because it was good and bad all at once.

[698] And I clearly have to justify why I'm saying is the element of good to it.

[699] The bad part was obviously everything we saw.

[700] And I think Lewisham Hospital was one of the hardest hit hospitals.

[701] I mean, the amount of death that we saw was huge.

[702] I saw so much death every day, young people as well as old.

[703] And I think it was a real, I don't know, it was a real kind of, wow, this is happening, you know, feeling as we saw everything getting so busy, the recess department being full of patients, having to make very difficult decisions about situations and patients individually and also how to manage the hospital in terms of capacity and ventilators.

[704] What do you mean with difficult decisions?

[705] Well, you know, when we see, when we see, when we see a really unwell patient.

[706] And so resus is the place we see the sickest patients in hospital.

[707] Generally most departments will have minors, majors and resus.

[708] Resus is a place that you are, that if you're really unwell and if we don't do something, there's a higher chance that you're going to die and have serious outcomes, right?

[709] So if you're in there, generally you're pretty unwell.

[710] And when we see a patient even pre -COVID times, we have to make a decision about what we're going to do and how we're the best places for their treatment and what the ceiling of treatment is as well.

[711] You know, for, and what I mean by that is, for example, so we're seeing a patient in recess, you know, for example, if we're seeing a patient that has loads of comorbidities, they have lots of high burden of illness, it could be, you know, they have diabetes, heart disease, they might have end stage kind of dementia, they might not be aware of where they are, might be very elderly, very frail.

[712] If they are very unwellance and with an illness, we have to make decision about whether actually it is kind and correct to put them in intensive care with all the invasive wires, the lines we put into central arteries, putting the tube down the airway, you know, what is, what are we doing that for?

[713] Is that going to likely benefit that patient and lead to a good outcome?

[714] And what we want is to treat people in a way that's kind and that we can, we know that what we're doing is justifying for that patient because that patient is the centre of that approach.

[715] So we have to always make decisions about that.

[716] You know, very important to say age is not is not the factor that we make that decision based on upon being fragile and frail physically which might be associated with age is something we think about but not age in itself but if you are a in your physical health young fit and healthy and we think that taking intensive care and do all this stuff is like to lead to a good outcome for you then obviously that's that's what we do but there's certain decisions where for example in the coven in the pandemic we had someone with dementia and he wasn't aware where they were that at the kind of end of their life and they've got this horrible illness should we be putting them in intensive care and we have to make those very difficult decisions now important to say that going to intensive or not going to intensive care doesn't mean that you're not going to get treatment we still oxygen you know the the lines of antibotis all these things we still do that but is it kind to put tubes down down people's airways it's very difficult though to make all those those kind of decisions and it's made between intensive care department the they need a part but these are really tough decisions to make and even people, younger people in these situations that we had to make those difficult decisions with.

[717] And, you know, I think that was very, very hard.

[718] I think we were at a point particularly at the start of the pandemic and also at Christmas where we were pretty much nearing being overwhelmed.

[719] You know, I remember this Christmas just after it was January.

[720] I worked Christmas Day and then it was a few days after that.

[721] I think it was just after New Year's in January.

[722] We had like no ventilators left in the hospital.

[723] You know, we'd found, we managed to get whole of some literally the point we're like oh my god we don't have any more so thank god that no one went without but it was really at that point where we're like wow we're like resource wise running out here because i don't know if you remember they declared a major incident in london and what that really means is that for healthcare professionals for doctors for heads of departments for heads of hospitals they are then in a position where they might have to make decisions about resources i .e do we give a ventilator to you or you that is ultimately what we're saying is that the pressure and the weight on the NHS is at the point where we might have to decide you're having this ventilator, you're not.

[724] And very fortunately, like certainly when I was in there, we didn't have that situation.

[725] I wasn't faced with that situation, but it was one that we were anticipating of things and get better.

[726] So that's, you know, it was pretty tough in that sense.

[727] The good side of being in A &E throughout the pandemic was that I wasn't on my own.

[728] You know, I was living my own in London.

[729] I would have otherwise been at home the whole time.

[730] I felt a sense of purpose going there.

[731] I felt that I was able to do something in that time and I was surrounded by my friends.

[732] So it's an odd catch -22 of like the worst but also kind of helps.

[733] Do you have a worst day throughout that period?

[734] A day where you think that was the hardest?

[735] Worst day.

[736] Worst day throughout the pandemic.

[737] I think there was a day where we were, I was in recess that day.

[738] So we were kind of retaining different parts of departments.

[739] So I was in the recess department.

[740] And I was in there with a couple of the doctors and other nurses.

[741] And we were pretty much a capacity.

[742] So within our recess department, we have like, five, six, seven or eight beds, seven, eight beds in that recess area.

[743] Bearing mind these patients that require a huge amounts of care.

[744] I mean, these are, you know, trying to be near enough to one to one as we can to look after them because they're very unwell.

[745] They're very sick.

[746] and we're at that day we had two patients per bay so we had to put two beds in each bay because we were absolutely at capacity and in fact we're at the point where we're having to put some almost in the corridor area of the resa so it's within one big room big box room but not in the bay and that is very scary and then we're also having that day I remember we had ambulances lining up so blue light ambulances so they're the ones bringing the sickest patients outside and you're looking at this situation going, we're at capacity, no, actually we're, we've gone over the capacity.

[747] We don't have any more capacity, so what do we do?

[748] That is very frightening, not just in terms of space, but in terms of, right, I'm looking after this patient, this patient, this patient, this patient, this patient, they're all really sick.

[749] They all actually need by one to one time.

[750] How do we manage that situation?

[751] And that is very, very difficult.

[752] And a lot of people in the NHS face that across the country.

[753] You know, in parts of, for example, St. Thomas's, they were had like one nurse for every five patients at some point during the pandemic in intensive care it should be one -to -one intensive care how do you how do you deal with how do you deal with the forming a connection with someone and then losing them in that hospital ward and that must have happened time and time again throughout the pandemic very tough and i think one of the things that were hardest um was you know people couldn't believe it had happened to them i saw a i've got to be careful of course of confidentiality if i saw a gentleman who came in who was a professional middle -aged man who was otherwise pretty well, had a family.

[754] A few days later he was fine and all of a sudden just deteriorated with his cough and breathlessness.

[755] By the time he came to us, his oxygen levels were incredibly low.

[756] He required a really high level of oxygenation.

[757] Even with the high level of oxygen, we were given through a mask, it was clear that he actually needed to have a tube passed down to take over his breathing because even with a high level of auctionation and actually the pressurized mask we were using, we still weren't achieving adequate levels of blood saturations of oxygen.

[758] So it's, it was not survivable to continue in that way.

[759] And we had to have conversation with him and I had to say to him, look, you know, we are going to have to have to have to have to induce coma.

[760] We're going to put you in a throat.

[761] We've got to take over your breathing.

[762] You need to ring your family.

[763] We're going to get the iPad because we had this, you know, it's kind of sad.

[764] We had an iPad there for people to talk to their family before we did these things because we knew that roughly, if you're going to intubate is about 50 -50 -ish, something like that out of survival.

[765] It depends on the patient.

[766] There's a lot of different things but the general rough kind of thing is that and we said look you're going to have to say potentially say goodbye because we don't know we don't know what's going to happen and he was very and well but he couldn't you know he's still in his suit at the time when he came in and he just couldn't believe it was happening and it was that disbelief he was like am i really that sick you know we just explained everything as to why and it was really really hard watching someone going how has this happened to me you have this moment of like is this real you know is this some kind of you know, dream, nightmare, I guess.

[767] And we had to intubate him.

[768] He did survive, but he was very sick, and I think he was the, he survived by like a hair's, hair strands, kind of width of from being from death, I would say.

[769] He was very, very well as in intensive care for long a period of time, but he did make it through, but he could easily have not.

[770] And I think witnessing those kind of events, and I've witnessed many other times with even younger people who didn't make it through that is very tough that's very difficult because when I go home at the end of that shift I'm like well will he make it will he not it's very very hard and then when you find out they haven't I just the constant the constant bad news associated with that job most of the time the beauty of A &E is vast majority of the time we get it right most majority of time people survive people we make people better and that's we're very fortunate about actually most of the time and we spend our time making people better and it works.

[771] But the pandemic's very hard.

[772] But even within that, of course, there's death.

[773] I mean, I don't ignore the actual exact figures, but every day or so, every day someone will die in the A &E, multiple times a day people will die across the hospital.

[774] That is unfortunately the reality of the job that we do.

[775] So we do get used to that.

[776] But I think when the pandemic is the volume of that, the amount of death we saw was just exponential.

[777] So you kind of, you balance in your hands.

[778] because you think well 95 % of the time this is a good outcome we do good and we help people and people get better but in the pandemic there was a swinging of that balance to being like oh my gosh i'm trying my best for all these patients but a lot of people aren't making it a very very important thing to say is obviously talk i am working in a position where i'm the recess department of a very busy hospital in a in london we know that the mortality rate with COVID's around 1 % so i'm not don't want to like sensationalize that element but i am seeing that percentage of people who are the sickest who are in the hospital.

[779] So it's obviously important to say that.

[780] Very many that 30 % don't even have any symptoms.

[781] But I think it's very important for people to realize that there is very much two ends of that spectrum.

[782] And at the very sharp end, if you're a very sharp end of that spectrum, then they can be very serious.

[783] So my last question on this COVID topic is, you know, because of that perspective that you do have and the spectrum, the side of the spectrum that you sit on, when you come online and you see people going, oh, COVID's not true.

[784] Conspiracy.

[785] Oh, vaccines don't work.

[786] COVID's not real.

[787] It's some government, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[788] It's the 5G masks, blah, blah, blah.

[789] What do you think?

[790] Well, I mean, forget almost for a second, the disrespect that it shows to all the doctors and nurses that have worked in that situation had to deal with the things that dealt with.

[791] And actually, the professionals that have died of COVID, don't forget, we have lost quite a lot of NHS staff.

[792] I actually, we nearly lost one of my good friends.

[793] There was a nurse at Lewisham.

[794] She's an intensive care for three months.

[795] She nearly died of COVID treating patients in recess.

[796] But also the disrespect to all the people that have lost their lives, you know, from this, and the families that now have to live have been one of the, you know, the groups of people that have lost.

[797] It's, it's very upsetting.

[798] I mean, people are going around.

[799] I mean, people are going around to hospitals, go into waiting rooms of like boots or outpatient reception.

[800] They're going, look, the hospital's empty.

[801] It's like, yeah, it's empty because we're closed all that because all the doctors and nurses are pooled into the acute settings in the hospital to look after the round wards of patients that we need to care for, but the public see this picture of an empty reception room.

[802] The hospitals aren't busy.

[803] But I think the vast majority of people out there are good.

[804] Most people have been incredibly supportive.

[805] The amount of support we've had with the NHS has been unbelievable.

[806] The fact that at the 70th third birthday, the NHS has awarded the George Cross of, I think, is for bravery, isn't it?

[807] But anyway, so it's the highest recognition, isn't it, that it can achieve, is a really good thing.

[808] And I hope that actually people have realised now how much we need the NHS.

[809] lucky, I mean, you've been to America.

[810] You know, the beauty is if you're here in this country, if you've, God forbid, you're cycling from work one day and you get in October, you get hit on the head, and you have a bleed in your brain, you will go to a hospital, you'll be operated on by a neurosurgeon who will look after you, you'll be in a hospital bed, you'll have all the rehabilitation that you need and support, even if it's for many months, and you will, at the point of that service, at the point of care, you won't pay a penny.

[811] That is incredible.

[812] If you compare that to the, God knows how many hundreds of thousands or millions that would cost in other countries, we're very lucky.

[813] Oh my God.

[814] Anyone that's against the NHS only needs to go spend a week in New York and just go, you know, speak to people about their relationship with their health.

[815] Yeah.

[816] For us, we don't think about it in the same way.

[817] People in the US have to choose their job based on health options.

[818] And they have to, and when they get, you know, when they lose their job, they're losing their health care.

[819] Yeah.

[820] And it's just, and we don't even consider it.

[821] And I tell you what, from living in New York for three is I'd much rather have it this way.

[822] I fit and it's giving me this huge sense of gratitude for the NHS because we just totally take it for granted, especially people that haven't experienced the alternative.

[823] I mean, I've, I, I, um, a few years ago, I got sepsis.

[824] I was actually working in A &E and I'd say in a shift in Lewisham and about, I started on fever in the afternoon.

[825] And by late afternoon, I didn't really didn't feel well.

[826] I actually cycled home about six miles from work really struggling.

[827] I was really fit at the tunnel.

[828] I was struggling to get home.

[829] Got home.

[830] I was like, pulse.

[831] I'm having a fever.

[832] Oh gosh, I'm actually quite sick.

[833] I was a bit of a realization, got on the tube to go to St. Thomas at Westminster, pretty much collapsed in the door of St. Thomas's end up in recess and had the most incredible care.

[834] It was in hospital for a week with sepsis.

[835] But they saved my lives.

[836] And I was like, wow.

[837] And I saw, it was really interesting because I saw the NHS from not as a worker, but as a patient.

[838] And I was like, God, we are so lucky.

[839] I literally had everyone looking after me, the care I had.

[840] And let's be frank, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the treatment I had.

[841] And at the end of the week or whatever thankfully had a quick recovery I just walked out the hospital and and with and I was like that's it you know I've had this amazing care I don't have to pay anything and I and I'm still here to tell the tale you know so I think I really hope people will support the NHS more than ever now coming out of it and protect it and make sure we don't strip it of any more of its money I want to talk about 2019 the which was the year 2020 yeah the you lost your brother I saw your interview with Ladd Bible and I saw the I can't quite you know I can't quite shake that that image of you sat at dinner you said about your dad's phone phone call can you take me back to that moment?

[842] Yeah it's almost a year to the day now I think 23rd of July will be the anniversary's death which you know the year's gone very quickly where it's very odd it feels it yesterday but yeah very odd with the time but um yeah I was sat at dinner in London with some friends.

[843] We actually just ordered a few drinks about to order kind of start.

[844] I was a main, I was busy look at my menu, thinking we're going to eat and whatever.

[845] I think, oh, it's a great place.

[846] This is, you know, enjoy myself.

[847] And the phone went, and I think when my dad would say, look, if you, because I do a lot of stuff of filming or whatever, you know, if you ring once, if you just want to chat ring once and I know you ring in for chat and I'll call you back.

[848] But if you ring twice or more, I know it's something important.

[849] And I'll always answer, doesn't matter what situation I'm in.

[850] So he rung twice.

[851] In fact, I think he was gone on the third call.

[852] All right, okay, I need to answer this.

[853] And I could hear in his voice instantly that something really bad happened.

[854] It's weird.

[855] When you hear that rattle or that kind of tone in someone's voice, there's only one thing that has happened.

[856] And I just said straight away, like, who's died?

[857] Like, who's passed away?

[858] Like, what's happened?

[859] And he said, Clea has passed away.

[860] Clear is dead.

[861] And I was like, what?

[862] And it was weird.

[863] The whole world, like, closed in.

[864] And I can't explain.

[865] It sounds very dramatic.

[866] It was like almost a spotlight came onto me that moment.

[867] and I was like, no, it can't be.

[868] I just couldn't believe it.

[869] And the disbelief, and he said, yeah, he's passed away.

[870] And then we had to drive by middle brother Elliot, who's in the RAF, he drove up to London, he works out just outside and on the bases, and he came in to fetch me, and we drove back together, and it was kind of five -hour drive back to West Wales.

[871] And it felt like ten eternities, like every mile was at the longest mile, and I went into every, like, corner of my mind.

[872] But you just couldn't fathom it, really, you know?

[873] think that's the thing about suicide or, you know, when these things happen, you know, it can happen out of nowhere and you just haven't seen it and you've been hit by this train.

[874] And it was kind of a weird, we were talking earlier on about Freya and having the opportunity to say goodbye, like having that closure.

[875] I didn't get that with him.

[876] You know, he was supposed to come to London the week after and then we were going to go back to Wales together and it's the first time I'd have seen him in a long time because the pandemic.

[877] And all of a sudden I was like, wow, I don't get any closure.

[878] That's it then.

[879] You know, and I think that has been varied and continues to be very difficult the lack of you know what why you know why didn't he talked to me about it you know as someone he knew the work was doing around mental health particularly during the pandemic um you know why didn't you ask me for help you know um it's very very hard i saw you said that one of your biggest sort of regrets as a family was not seeing the signs and in hindsight you can start to think well you know yeah it's one of those things isn't it understandably so he was a place at med school that he's very excited about that he's very excited about that he's future planning about it and very looking forward um and you know i think probably in the weeks before he probably was a bit more anxious about the pandemic and i thought well you know he's been locked up quite a bit with all the restrictions that we're going to see him next week but nothing out of what i would say is what you'd expect as a you know a 19 year old kid that's been kind of stuck in the whole time um but now it's easy it is easy when you look back and you think in hindsight oh, that was a sign of that, that and that.

[880] But you're going to have that regret, aren't you?

[881] You know, you're always going to, it's human nature.

[882] My mum always has that sense of guilt around it, you know.

[883] She can't control what happened.

[884] It's his action.

[885] It's his choice that he made.

[886] But for everyone around that person, it is that guilt that you carry, I think, forever.

[887] And there was no lasting indication of how he was feeling.

[888] He hadn't said anything to anybody.

[889] No, I mean, he was really fed up with being kind of the pandemic again.

[890] And he was worried about his examiner.

[891] results we talked about that a lot and I'd asked him how he's feeling it was like yeah once he got through this bit you know I'm kind of all right kind of thing and nothing that would make you think that's you know and go down to that that route but it's one of those things that people often when people are going to you know take their own life or you know not all the time but quite often people will sometimes well at least in his case you know they don't give the warning signs because they've made their decision of what they wanted to do and and the shame is I think the biggest shame I think is that he just obviously couldn't feel the sense within him that he could ask and say, this is how I feel, can I have help?

[892] And when I talk about a lot of the work I want to do around stigma, and people go, oh, yeah, we're talking about loads, stigmas done.

[893] So I wouldn't know, because, you know, he felt to the point where he'd rather take a, you know, a fine, a decision that had a binary decision, if you like, with his life.

[894] He felt so much like this with it that he couldn't talk about it, that he took that decision.

[895] So I think there's so much cultural stuff, there's so much stuff around stigma that there's still got to do to change that because, you know, if you'd have said something, you've talked about it, we could have, you know, I big believe that we can get through anything, we can change, you can, we can work through most things, but you've got to have the opportunity for help.

[896] But I think that's where there's an interesting conversation around, yes, mental health services clearly need real funding.

[897] I'm going to, there's no counter argument against that and we need to do more, but we actually have to work on education around mental health and the stigma element too, because in his scenario, even if you had the best mental health system in this country ever, if you didn't ask for help, how is he going to access that service?

[898] And I think we lose too many particularly young men each year who are not actually accessing any help or reaching out at all before they take that decision.

[899] We're losing the chance to save those people, you know.

[900] And I think there's that balance.

[901] You know, we need to work on the stigma.

[902] We need to work on the funding in combination to kind of change this.

[903] But, you know, for him, it's too late.

[904] you know but I hope that through my work I'm doing now I can't take the pain or whatever way of what's happened but I can hopefully prevent other families going through it because it's an awful burden to carry you know and I've got to carry it for whatever you know hopefully a long time but you know whatever length of my life is I have to carry that you never that doesn't go away it's always there this is a tough question but you just said that you have to carry that burden and people often think that especially people that haven't are naive to grief they think that it's you go through the process like a breakup and then your you know your business as usual but you've got to carry that grief for a long time yeah is there a mixture of emotions in terms of feelings towards the decision he made um that you also contend with yeah i think you go through through every emotion of like anger upset frustration sadness feeling of guilt every spectrum of negative emotion i think and you cycle through that and i think the process of i've had with grief is kind of going through the kind of shock phase, anger, shock, upset, you know, the kind of sadness through it and trying to come to a place of acceptance, I guess, is where you've got to try and get to.

[905] And I don't know, I'm guessed somewhere on the way, I guess on the way to that, but you kind of go backwards and forth that sometimes, you know, I think your grief is not a linear process.

[906] I think it's very much that zigzag of kind of you get better, get worse, get a bit better, get a bit better, get a bit worse.

[907] And, you know, you carry what I think is like a black box in your head with it you know when you first happens you're just staring into this abyss of this black box of sadness and everything and then eventually learn to close the box eventually it shrinks a little bit and hopefully eventually you can put it on your shelf and you can sometimes go and sit and ruminate with it but then you can put it back when you when you need to and i think that is what happens and i think that's why you will always carry it you can't get rid of it you know you never stop loving that person you know you just have to learn to live that black box in your head basically and you I imagine that's quite, I mean, losing, I've got two brothers, so I imagine that's quite an informative life incident that then changes the way you view your own life and choices and decisions.

[908] I think it puts into perspective thing.

[909] I think it puts things in perspective, but interestingly not as well.

[910] I still get annoyed and upset about the same things I got annoyed about before, but I have to go Alex, like, in reality, some things you've had to kind of deal with is probably fine.

[911] And I think it's funny in that way.

[912] But it also does, it does mean that, you know, I try, it's kind of given me another purpose that, you know, in life, I guess, that I want to kind of work on.

[913] And I think it's, it does make me think much more about like, I want to do, I want to make sure that in life I can impact positively on people.

[914] And if I can influence people in a positive sense in a space, then I think that would be success to me. I think that if it was to ask, like, what was the meaning, what is a definition of success to me?

[915] I think it probably would be feeling that I made a genuine impact.

[916] in that mental health space and that other young people, other people won't take their life or will seek help and get help before they're at that point or when they're at that point.

[917] I think that would be success for me. And yeah, I think that has that has changed a lot of that kind of mindset in my hands.

[918] But I also want to live life a lot more.

[919] I've also like, because it's happened, I'm like, I want to go on holiday.

[920] I want to enjoy my cars.

[921] I want to go, I'm going to Formula One this weekend.

[922] I want to go and enjoy my hobbies.

[923] It's made me want to like live as an enriched life as I can.

[924] you said that your life will always kind of be defined as before and after that incident and I was when I was reading about the interviews that you've done in the podcast you've done following losing your brother they always gravitate back to this conversation right it's almost and it's become part of one of the things people like me want to talk to you about and ask you about so I sat there wondering how does that feel when you know that if you go and do an interview you're going to a podcast, that at some point it's going to come back to that topic, a tragic topic of losing your brother.

[925] Well, so I think it's true.

[926] It's that before and after element, isn't it?

[927] I don't think I am entirely the same person as I was before.

[928] I think, in fact, and it makes a lot of sense, if you were going to experience a massive life -changing event, it's probably going to change you.

[929] If it's change your life, it's going to change you.

[930] I'm still at the core, the same person I always was, but I think I've probably been slightly molded a bit differently, and I think I don't think I'm in.

[931] entirely the same.

[932] And I don't really know what I mean by that.

[933] And I can't really give an answer to what way am I different, but I'm just not quite the same person, I think, and potentially is because I have to carry this box, you know.

[934] But yeah, in terms of kind of interviews and things afterwards and talking about it, as odd as this might sound, in many ways it's therapy.

[935] I know that might be maybe not the answer you probably expected, but in a way, it's a way of me talking with different people about an experience that has shaped my life and hearing their thoughts on that as well.

[936] And I've taken a lot from speaking to people about it.

[937] And I think talking is good.

[938] And I think bottling these things up and hiding away wouldn't help.

[939] And it's interesting because when he passed away, we took the decision to go public and tell people because, you know, he passed away.

[940] I didn't want there to be any confusion.

[941] Obviously, he died of COVID.

[942] You know, what's happened.

[943] You know, how has he passed away?

[944] I wanted people to understand.

[945] No, he died of suicide.

[946] He had a mental health.

[947] He died of a mental health illness.

[948] You know, there was very important for us to make that kind of statement, but I knew in that point that the people then would, you know, that we would end up talking about this.

[949] But the way I kind of see it is that even on days it's difficult to talk about, if it helps someone else, if someone else is listening and watching this podcast and they go, you know, I'm going to watch out for the signs in other people, or I'm going to be much more aware of this now.

[950] Or if I'm struggling, I'm going to give it this chance.

[951] I'm going to speak to someone.

[952] I'm going to go to a professional.

[953] I'm going to speak to my family, talk to my friends.

[954] Then that to me is worth doing that interview.

[955] you know the other consequence of speaking about it so often um and being known as someone that has you know part of your um story tragically is that your brother took his own life is you will get and i know i have a fraction of this but you will get thousands of dms of people who are feeling suicidal who are you know in a very very very very dark place in fact i imagine if you opened up your phone now and went on your dms it wouldn't take long for us to find a couple of those just at the top of the inbox, right?

[956] That is, I mean, that must feel like...

[957] It's heavy, it's heavy.

[958] And I think this role has been...

[959] I mean, I really enjoy what I do in the youth mental health work.

[960] I think a lot of the work we do is very, very positive, very uplifting, actually.

[961] And I think the work of particular on well -being is really, really positive.

[962] And I want the conversation around mental health to be one about how exciting is as a space by empowering yourself, giving yourself the tools, to live a happy and successful life in whatever definition that is.

[963] But of course, there is the other side of it of having that weight of those who are, struggling.

[964] And, you know, what I try and do is work across, you know, basically in areas and campaigns that can help the majority in these things.

[965] And I realize that, sadly, I can't sit and help and fix everyone's, let's see.

[966] I mean, if I tried, I would fail.

[967] I'd probably cripple and cry if I tried to do it, you know.

[968] So I try and look at doing the big projects and help people in that way, if that makes sense.

[969] But, you know, of course, when I speak to a lot of people, because I go out and speak to young people, I speak to people who are struggling in person, and it is heavy sometimes.

[970] But again, I go back to if I feel like I've managed to help them, then that really helps.

[971] And of course, a lot of the content that I make is around, you know, speaking about, out, about well -being, about mental health.

[972] I feel that I'm able to influence people in a positive way.

[973] But of course, it is heavy.

[974] It is hard.

[975] It's not, it's not an easy thing.

[976] And I'm sure, and it's the same, anyone, you talk about a lot of emotive subjects as well, particularly around the space, actually, in your podcast and have them for a long time, so you, of course, get those messages.

[977] And it's difficult, isn't it?

[978] Because you can't help everyone is the truth.

[979] Well, if you can't help everyone, you can't individually help everyone.

[980] And you also know logically that the best return on your time would be, in that case, making, just in the case of Instagram, I know that the best return on my time, if I want to help people, would be to take that one hour that I could have spent going back and forward with someone in my DMs and make it into something that could reach a million people by making a video, for example.

[981] Yeah.

[982] It's the same idea of like A &E, in an A &E, and a shift in A &E, and I still, I do it because I really, really love it, selfishly, maybe.

[983] But if I do a shift in Aene, I can help a lab and a child people, which is really, and I'm not taking away from that at all because the change you make in that person's life, literally saving people's lives, okay?

[984] So I don't see it as, it's like, oh, I can help more, it's better.

[985] But if I'm using my platform, in the mental health space, particularly in what I'm trying to achieve, I can reach so many more people because in A &E we're fixing people with problems that we can fix in that moment is the idea of A &E you know, all the work I'm doing is really preventive so that's what I've realised that's why I stepped away more since post -pendemic from the A &E work because I've realised that that is fixing the problems when they've happened I want to work on that preventative side and reach as many people as possible so that's why that's kind of that value of time of course makes perfect sense I actually watched your video on this last night where you were announcing that you were making the shift And I'm sat there thinking, like, just this is what I was thinking.

[986] I was thinking, obviously.

[987] I was like, there's not a lot of people that have the ability to reach millions a day with a preventative message.

[988] So I feel like, and this is not me trying to tell you how to live your life, but I was like, that's obviously the best return on your time is to work on the preventative end, which you've talked about today.

[989] Do you think you've got balance in your life?

[990] I think I'm finding it.

[991] So I probably know it is a binary answer.

[992] I think we're all trying to do that.

[993] How was your life out of balance?

[994] I think at the moment, particularly coming out of the pandemic, I'm still trying to figure out the workspace stuff.

[995] Like before, I worked in A &E kind of two days a week, then I'd work from home and doing stuff.

[996] But now I'm moved kind of out of the A &E sphere as much, even though I'm going back to do some shifts.

[997] I'm not going to be in as much as I was.

[998] I'm just trying to find that balance of switching off and switching on at the working day, you know, especially because so much of my work across Instagram and stuff, I'm finding that, that challenge.

[999] And people go, well, hang on, this is what you talk about a lot on your book and stuff.

[1000] It's like, yeah, but being aware of the problem doesn't mean you always got it fixed all the time.

[1001] It doesn't mean you got it down all the time.

[1002] Most of the time I'm getting there and I'm pretty good at it, things that get out on the walk in the morning, get my exercise in, my sleep stuff I'm doing all right.

[1003] But the thing of switching off the phone and my Instagram particularly, that is the bit I'm still not quite finding the balance on.

[1004] And as I say, finding that balance between being at work and not being at work.

[1005] But the truth is that's okay, because most of us in life, no one has got life down.

[1006] I don't think there's anyone I've ever met, they've got entirely got their life down.

[1007] They might have their career down, they might have problems in their family or they're falling out with a girlfriend or whatever.

[1008] To know what I'm not going to down.

[1009] That sounded like me. No, I mean, everyone has a tie rate.

[1010] Like at any time something's going too well, you know, something's not, something's going to happen.

[1011] So I think it's just being honest with yourself and going like, right, At the moment, that's what I'm trying to do.

[1012] So I'm actually looking for an office space now at the moment.

[1013] So I'm going to define my space that I work in.

[1014] So it's being realizing the things, the challenge you have.

[1015] And actually, like we said earlier, what are the steps you're taking to fix those challenges to find that balance?

[1016] One of the things that I've done, which has worked really well, is that on the weekends, by and large, and I stick this very strictly, weekends are mine again now.

[1017] You know, I worked for almost a whole year throughout the whole pandemic across being on TV, public health, England and stuff, be on Instagram, YouTube, all this stuff.

[1018] And I was working almost every day and ridiculous hours.

[1019] Between me full time and A &E and everything else, it was crazy hours, right?

[1020] And it was only going to lean to me being burnt out, you know, and I think, you know, and that's fine for a short period of time, it's not fine for the long term.

[1021] So now I've fought back and dragged back my weekends, mostly, mostly got my weekends back to actually do stuff with my family and my friends.

[1022] Go to the former one, go to Goodwood or go and watch tennis and stuff, you know.

[1023] Very fortunate to be able to do these things.

[1024] But when I am old and I look back on my life, I want to remember, and look back and go actually it didn't make the most of life it didn't just work all the time you know it's what it is work life balance is those cliche little thing but it is important to have you mentioned something there um about you you're doing an indirect at me about my poor relationship with my family and my girlfriend it was it's right yeah it just happened to be a sample so i want to throw that back at you um so in terms of your dating situation yeah your relationship situation um you posted a photo not so long ago of your um girlfriend Ellie.

[1025] Ellie.

[1026] Okay.

[1027] You're happy.

[1028] I don't want to say her name, but we'll go there.

[1029] New girlfriend, new relationship.

[1030] Yeah, yeah.

[1031] I mean, you know, I look at the pandemic scenario.

[1032] I mean, I was working in the hospital and, you know, the work I was doing was going well and all that and stuff pretty clearly.

[1033] I'm losing his life.

[1034] I suppose that part of it.

[1035] But my relationship suffered because I worked so hard in that sphere.

[1036] You know, my girlfriend at the time moved back to Bournemouth where her family was.

[1037] so I was working ridiculous hours, not seeing her at all because the pandemic restrictions being separated and my relationship suffered.

[1038] So I've been in that situation and it ended for that reason.

[1039] It would have been that relationship for like two or more years and I think it was quite a serious relationship at the time.

[1040] And then, you know, the pandemic and my focus on the work probably was resulted in the end of that relationship.

[1041] So that was a big thing.

[1042] I think part of came back at the work life balance and I go into this new relationship.

[1043] I think I'm trying to make sure that I'm investing in both and all that in those aspects.

[1044] in my life as well, you know, the family, the friends, the relationships.

[1045] It's not all about the work or, you know, the campaigns or the things I'm doing.

[1046] You've got it again.

[1047] It's finding that balance.

[1048] But I, you know, I learned from that.

[1049] And I don't regret it.

[1050] My role in that pandemic was to be there.

[1051] I don't regret choosing to be in Aeney and to do what I did in that pandemic because that was my purpose at that moment.

[1052] That was the right thing for me to do.

[1053] And sadly, sometimes following your purpose has outcomes and things that it affects.

[1054] And that's the way I see it.

[1055] In chapter six of your book when you're talking about relationships, you talk a lot about how we meet each other in this day and age and you talk about some of the dating apps, etc. How did you meet her?

[1056] We actually met in person in the traditional way.

[1057] Like when there was the kind of break in the pandemic, we could meet people and just at a pub actually, just natural, normal meeting place.

[1058] But obviously, that's changed so much now.

[1059] I mean, I'm not on the dating apps for the reasons that you know i think for obvious reasons um but that has become so much too many inquiries that you know i love how you have to brush over that that is that is the thing isn't it is that is where people are meeting each other now and i think that's why in the book i didn't brush over that topic because we have to accept that people are meeting each other through all these various apps whatever it might be in the technology and things now but it's it's about not forgetting that at the heart of that, that connection, that in -person and physical connection that you build with someone needs to be there as well.

[1060] It can't just all be online.

[1061] It's like an entry point of meeting people, isn't it?

[1062] But I think it's an interesting one.

[1063] Things have changed so much.

[1064] I mean, are you on the dating apps?

[1065] I'm not on the dating apps.

[1066] No, I couldn't do that.

[1067] No. No, no. Not that I'd want to, but I couldn't know.

[1068] No, but it's changed so much for people.

[1069] I think the world of dating.

[1070] I think one of the things I do worry about, I don't know what you think about this, but I think the world has become so what's the word like throw away things are like you can date someone see you on a date bump gone next time and that I worry about a little bit about that about people yeah not real like even amongst friendships and stuff people just like right in and out it's like a swipe left swipe right kind of idea and I I worry about that a little bit why are you hard to date um I think that over the years that I've been so focused I think on my work and the things that I want to do very driven in that space.

[1071] I mean, yeah, like there's always an element of selfishness, isn't there?

[1072] When you focus on something to the extent that you have and I have, certainly particularly for example, in the pandemic, it becomes almost selfish because even if you're doing it for an altruistic means, it's becoming something you are doing so intensively that other people are being maybe not being having the focus that they're expecting or you're not giving attention to other areas.

[1073] It's become selfish, doesn't it?

[1074] And I think that makes it a challenging, but I'm getting much better of that.

[1075] I hope Ellie would say that as well.

[1076] Well, we spoke to her and she said, yeah, she actually said, Ellie, come on out.

[1077] He's on his phone.

[1078] Yeah, yeah.

[1079] Yeah, what relationship advice would you give me if you've learned something, you know, I'm single at the moment, trying to fix that situation, but what advice would you give me that you've learned as being a, you know, a very purpose -driven, busy guy?

[1080] What's the one thing you think, do you know, that's the most important?

[1081] I think the first thing is don't try and fix it.

[1082] I think it's that acceptance.

[1083] I think, I don't think, I think, I big believe, I don't believe that happiness is, like, altered whether you're in a relationship or not.

[1084] Your state of happiness is like a, it's an internal thing, relationships.

[1085] Other people are external.

[1086] They do add to that, of course.

[1087] I'm not, you know, be worrying if I didn't think Ellie didn't make my life happy, but you can, she can add to something that's existing.

[1088] It's not there in the first place.

[1089] There's nothing to add to.

[1090] So, you know, I always think it's, it's focusing, focusing on yourself and your passions and interest and try and meet someone that will genuinely, I'm so cliche, but it is, I think it's, I think it's, It is really, really true that genuinely adds to you as a person.

[1091] You know, if you're rubbing up against someone, your purposes aren't aligned in some way.

[1092] There isn't some kind of crossover in your directions in life.

[1093] I don't know if that's going to work.

[1094] You know, so you kind of need someone else that's got millions and millions of them.

[1095] I'm the same side to build a massive empire podcasting, whatever.

[1096] I'm joking, but it's sharing common ground, isn't it?

[1097] It's finding something that adds to you in some way.

[1098] But I mean, even, you know, with Ali now, for example, you know, she recognizes in me when I'm starting to get stressed and work.

[1099] And particularly the mental health work does cause me a lot of stress sometimes, ironically.

[1100] And she recognises that.

[1101] And she's really great to help me step away and say, do you know what?

[1102] You've done a lot in that space.

[1103] Let's step away for a moment and take a bit of time.

[1104] You don't need, you know, when do you stop?

[1105] You know, that's quite lying, you know, and then you stop.

[1106] And she adds in that way a huge amount, a sense of calm to my life, actually, which is really great.

[1107] So it's, I do feel that if you're with someone, even as a friendship, your friend should actually, add to your life in some way if they're not adding to your life that are they truly your friend very deep thoughts no yeah no but what are your thoughts about it and what are you what are you looking for in your next girlfriend this is like oh my my next girlfriend um i've i've actually always been pretty clear your final girlfriend yeah because i do the podcast so i always ask these questions and i ask them to a range of guests and i've got i mean 10 years ago i would have told you about hair colors and nonsense like that right yeah and i've got more fundamental over the last decade and I'm at the point now where one of really three things which is I want them to help me become a better version of myself purposefully ambiguous so that could be a more kind person they can be more spiritually in touch it could be more successful in my business but help me become a better person and device versa yeah yeah yeah yeah the second thing is um sexual attraction yeah which you write about and you write about the importance of of having those conversations and being open about that in your book um it's just important i've had everything else and not that and it doesn't work right so and the last one was i i would refer to it as like mental stimulation which is just being able to connect intellectually around topics um and i think if i can those are the three things everything else is kind of you know blah blah and i know there's going to be loads of bullshit you can't as we talked about earlier all things come with a cost yeah so it's really yeah and that's another point is this really important question which i i've come to ask myself which i've come to ask myself which which isn't, which used to be, are they perfect, right?

[1108] Alas, you'd be looking for the whole life time.

[1109] Unicorn, I'm fucking jure.

[1110] But now it's refrained and it's now, is it worth it?

[1111] Yeah.

[1112] I know exactly what you're saying.

[1113] Do you know what I mean?

[1114] First of I agree with all your three points entirely.

[1115] And all of them are required, I think, to be in there for it to kind of work.

[1116] But yeah, I mean, no one's perfect.

[1117] We're all in the beauty of the world as everyone's imperfect.

[1118] You know, we'll all have things that people would say, Alex, that's really annoying trade of yours.

[1119] You know, we're going to have that, right?

[1120] it's finding what you, it's finding is the good worth the things that you maybe don't think are as perfect about that person.

[1121] And when you found that in someone, you've really won, you know, being like, do you know, I accept their imperfections.

[1122] They accept my imperfections.

[1123] But the good and the combined good parts of each of us makes it worthwhile.

[1124] And I think that is the ultimate goal, isn't it really?

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] Just to find someone that's worth the bullshit.

[1127] And I mean, we all have bullshit and this is what really what this it's a really introspective thing where I realized that I am so imperfect so the pursuit of finding someone that is perfect is such a nonsense thing to do when I'm so clearly imperfect by whatever definition you want to use we're all like we're all like jigsaw shapes aren't we really in our lives and you kind of got to be able to fit and it's also the practicality of life you need to have like careers that it's so difficult in modern life like people have opposing careers that don't work together it's like there's so many bits of that jigsaw but I think again it comes to even stuff about careers if the other bits and the sum of of the rest, it equates to that being worth it.

[1128] And you find a way to make it work.

[1129] You know, you find, you find a way to, you know, make that relationship grow and work, but you just got to find that right, it's finding that right person, I think.

[1130] And I think if you go into it with that mindset, with those three kind of key ideals and things that you're looking for, then, yeah, hopefully you won't go too far wrong.

[1131] Well, I have to ask you one last question, which is, you know, this is a business podcast at the end of the day, or least I say it is.

[1132] Yes, that's the category I put it in.

[1133] And you've started a business prescribed.

[1134] which is in the well -being wellness space um why um you were already busy what are you doing and uh tell me how hard it is well funny if it started from a place of um uh i love bath bombs because i right okay so i have to like stop myself from doing things i need to like put myself in a place so i sit down i relax and it unwind getting in the bath you know put your phone away from the bath you can't do very much really you sat in the bath right put some music on listen to your podcast well occasion i have like the bath that's not image you probably want to think I sit in the bath, listen to the podcast, right?

[1135] So it just, it helps me chill out.

[1136] I chuck a bath bomb in or whatever.

[1137] And I was doing, I was showing on my stories.

[1138] I was checking in the bath bomb on my stories and I chucked the phone away to get in the bath.

[1139] And people start saying, why didn't you do it yourself?

[1140] Why don't you get lusher?

[1141] It's great, but there's no one in that space.

[1142] Why don't you create it?

[1143] And I thought, I actually do a lot of stuff in my life.

[1144] It's very heavy.

[1145] It's very stressful.

[1146] This would be a really exciting business to do.

[1147] So I kind of started looking into it.

[1148] And a few months later, we've, you know, we've got, we're doing a range of bath bombs, which I'm very proud of.

[1149] The vegan bath problems, we're trying to, I say environment in mind, because I think sustainability is a word that's very tricky to say that you're truly sustainable, environment in mind, and we're growing our product range.

[1150] You know, the idea of prescribes is you're prescribing yourself, time, investing in yourself, in self -care.

[1151] And I think that's what I was doing, getting into the path, and that's what the brand to be.

[1152] So it's going to be candles, shower products, you know, creams and moisturisers, everything around that self -care space.

[1153] But it's great.

[1154] quick because I think people are so interested in this space.

[1155] It's what?

[1156] It's a three billion pound space in the market at the moment, isn't it?

[1157] It's a huge industry that's growing and people want to genuinely take care of themselves and it's just yeah it's it's it's very exciting.

[1158] It's your first business?

[1159] It's my first business.

[1160] You see you?

[1161] I'm CEO.

[1162] How are you finding that?

[1163] It's good.

[1164] It's it's it's outside the comfort zone.

[1165] I mean I really enjoy it.

[1166] I I really enjoy.

[1167] I've got a great team around me. We've got like a small team.

[1168] It's not compared to your businesses.

[1169] You know, but we've got to start somewhere.

[1170] I've got a small team around me. And what I think is very important.

[1171] And I say this not, I've got no right to say this in the business space, but I've learned it in life to be true.

[1172] Recognise the areas that you are weaker.

[1173] I recognize what you don't know about and bring people in to sort that.

[1174] So I've got people, I got someone, a fantastic person called Ella who is amazing at product products, product design.

[1175] finding products within the beauty space.

[1176] She's done an amazing job.

[1177] We're working with an amazing factory that we're working on the bath bombs.

[1178] I've got people that understand marketing properly, what people understand the business side of it and how much did things cost?

[1179] How much does that?

[1180] What do we price it at?

[1181] So I've just realized, but what I'm not good at and get people in to come and help me, you know, the bit I understand, I do understand the social media site.

[1182] So I kind of lead quite a lot on that because I kind of get it.

[1183] It's just kind of incorporating into my life.

[1184] But yeah, it's pretty scary.

[1185] I mean, especially we're running into Christmas.

[1186] We're planning the Christmas.

[1187] It's a very important thing.

[1188] We're thinking about doing pop -up.

[1189] We can do a pop -up shop and stuff like that.

[1190] I mean, it's all a bit scary and you have to invest in your own business clearly.

[1191] But it's exciting, right?

[1192] I mean, I need you to keep listening to your podcast, but I need to give me some expert.

[1193] Now I'm doing Dragons Day.

[1194] I need some expert advice to help me make it into a massive business, you know?

[1195] No, what, you know, it's fascinating and it's amazing that after five months it's been.

[1196] Yeah.

[1197] You've figured out already one of the most important lessons about business, which the best in this country, the best entrepreneurs in this country, have also figured out, if you look at Ben Francis, Julian Hearn, who's, you know, the founder of Huell, all of those individuals realized that they weren't either, it's one of two things, either competent to be the CEO or they didn't want to be.

[1198] And you have to want to do it.

[1199] And you have to also think you're capable at doing it.

[1200] Now, it's the same for me in my business.

[1201] Like, there were so many things that I either didn't want to do or didn't feel competent enough in doing.

[1202] And had I not had that self -awareness and how to let my ego say, no, you have to be the CEO and you have to be involved in everything.

[1203] There's zero percent chance I would have succeeded.

[1204] And I'm seeing this tremendous, really positive shift amongst founders who are getting out the way of their own sort of inexperience, especially young ones, because when you're young, again, ego comes in.

[1205] And the other thing that happens, which I talk about this podcast, and the other critical mistake you make, is when you're a new entrepreneur or inexperienced, you don't think you have the right to hire super mega -experienced people because you think why would they want to come and work here in our little social media company or our bath bomb company in this cupboard that we're working out of.

[1206] Why would they want to be here?

[1207] So you make the critical mistake of hiring your mate Dave.

[1208] Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1209] I don't have any Dave's in the time.

[1210] Well, I made that mistake.

[1211] You know, and you do it because of, you know, and that again is a critical, fatal mistake.

[1212] And I, those are probably the two most important things.

[1213] Business is all about, you know, by definition, the word company means a group of people.

[1214] that is literally what ends up mattering the most the group of people that is and it took me probably three to four years to figure that out in my so it's the most important if you've been able to make sure I got the right team 100 % moving forward it's the it's what you're you are you aren't every so think about what you've created you've created this idea this bath bomb vegan idea where did that come from the genius in it where did it come from it came from a person the finance the way your businesses run in terms of It's finance, the strategy, the marketing, the investment you raise, all of these things, the decisions that are all going to come from the people.

[1215] A business and the product is all a manifestation of people.

[1216] Apple's a great example of that.

[1217] He was a great example of that.

[1218] And if you have, and I view it as a starting 11, if you're starting 11, and your starting 11 is going to wall with another, with lush, right?

[1219] If you're starting 11 does not match up, you will fail.

[1220] Yeah.

[1221] And so it took me three years to get to the point where I realized that I am just a recruitment business.

[1222] I am.

[1223] Do you see what I mean?

[1224] I think you're probably underpay.

[1225] I will win based on my recruitment.

[1226] We are a recruitment company.

[1227] And I remember the day I stood in front of social chain and said that.

[1228] Like, if we know the people are the most important thing, why don't we have an internal recruitment team?

[1229] That is a really, it's a really interesting.

[1230] Because I kind of, I realized that having the right people was important, but I quite haven't viewed it in that way.

[1231] Everything comes from that.

[1232] Everything comes from that.

[1233] It's a very good point.

[1234] As you get big, as the company gets bigger, you're, you're really.

[1235] as a founder is somewhat diminished.

[1236] That scares me a little because we are, I mean, we are very, you know, we're still small, but we are, I'd say, we're doing very well.

[1237] We're growing very quickly.

[1238] We're expanding quickly at range and et cetera.

[1239] That scares me that growth quite a bit.

[1240] Yeah.

[1241] Because then that's, again, being uncomfortable zone, it's like, well, how do we manage who needs to come in and do this?

[1242] And it's a bit scary.

[1243] So you just go have to go find really good people.

[1244] And one point in my business, maybe year three or four, we hired a lady called Katie Leeson from MediaCom who'd been doing this for 15, I don't know, 10 years, whatever.

[1245] she went and went back to MediaCom and hired all of her friends from MediaCom who were also like double my age in some cases whatever almost double my age and they ran the business and I had no problems yeah they they were so experienced and had done this before so you're saying is don't let your ego get in the way let people come and do the thing I flew off to New York I had no problems they solved all the problems that I didn't even know were problems and I can I can say well what if I hadn't made that decision.

[1246] Well, before then, I hadn't made the decision.

[1247] And my life was hell.

[1248] Every day was hell.

[1249] Like hell.

[1250] I'd wake up in the morning, hell.

[1251] And the thing that cured it was installing a group of people who had done this before and were really, really good.

[1252] To be fair, when they accepted the job, I thought, where do they want to work here?

[1253] Yeah.

[1254] And those people, and they've loved it and they've grown.

[1255] They've done it.

[1256] They've grown as well.

[1257] And the business is, um, it's really interesting here you said, because I think we talk about work life balance, right?

[1258] I'm looking for an office space.

[1259] the other thing I've realized is that I need to grow my own team.

[1260] So I'm actually now growing not just prescribe as one of their elements.

[1261] I'm growing my own team that's the kind of Dr. Alex brand team.

[1262] And I think a big part of I've come to that point and realize I need to let go of certain aspects, people can take over that.

[1263] They can do this part of it.

[1264] They can add and allow me to basically free at my time to do the front facing stuff, which you've talked about I think before.

[1265] So it is interesting.

[1266] I think I'm learning that.

[1267] I think one of the things funny enough that I think has helped.

[1268] And obviously, I know they're going to make mistakes.

[1269] mistakes this business.

[1270] I think I've heard listening enough to your pod to say that people make mistakes.

[1271] But one of the things that's helped is of working as a doctor, you know and accept that you are not a specialist in every area.

[1272] But medicine's huge.

[1273] We have dermatological, cardiological, neurosurgeon, surgeons, obstetricians.

[1274] So I'm kind of quite happy for people to go like your specialties that, you do that, you do that.

[1275] I'm kind of happy with that idea.

[1276] You know, but the fear, but the thing that I do fear a little bit, I still fear, I worry about letting things go a little bit.

[1277] It's not with it either.

[1278] I just worry about not having sight over things.

[1279] So I think that's what where they're kind of building the brand of Dot Dallas and having people help me allow to do more.

[1280] I'm just scared a little bit of letting go of stuff.

[1281] And it becomes a lot easier when you pass the buck to trusted hands.

[1282] You'll always have the fear if you're passing any part of the responsibility of your business to a hand that you don't fully trust.

[1283] What you want to do, and this is exactly what happened in my business, is I passed it to hands.

[1284] That were better than me. So I was like, oh, I was like, and I always think this.

[1285] I said this in my peer a few times, like in the company, in like say the video, department or the studio whatever the guy is better than me that runs the studio so i never speak to him and then steve job said the same he said your job as a CEO is to hire um great people and they tell you what to do and that and if you're still you've still got trust problems in your business and you still aren't you know you're concerned about giving up responsibilities then it's because you don't have the right people and so again it comes back to that point of that being it turns out that that's everything and i didn't know it that's really useful advice i'm glad i'm not not I'll just to chat to you.

[1286] I'm going to take all that away.

[1287] Well, genuinely, it took me years and I had to witness the pain of the opposite to realize.

[1288] And I don't, I just pray you don't.

[1289] And I, I know, I try.

[1290] I need to surround myself the right people and trust them.

[1291] Yes, people way beyond the people you think you deserve in your business at this time.

[1292] And that's what moves it forward.

[1293] People that you think, why would they go get the global head of marketing of lush?

[1294] Yeah.

[1295] And your job is CEO is to sell them on the reason why it's better to be in this small, citing Agile Startup, then that big, boring conglomerate where you're a cog and a wheel.

[1296] That's the, that's the pitch, right?

[1297] I'm going to write that down.

[1298] Saving a pitch.

[1299] Well, you've got to record a video.

[1300] But listen, Alex, you know, you've given me tons of your time and reading about yourself, your journey.

[1301] You know, I don't watch Love Island.

[1302] I've got to be honest.

[1303] But so there's always that stigma when you think about, oh, Love Island, it comes with a bit of a tainted brush.

[1304] But as I delved further into your journey, I was just so inspired by everything, by how intelligent you are, by your radical empathy for people, which is, again, again, is quite rare these days, by your being so obsessively purpose -driven, which again is super rare, especially for someone that's been on Love Island.

[1305] You don't have to say anything.

[1306] I'm dawned stare -siting.

[1307] And it's just so incredibly inspiring.

[1308] And this book that you've written, Live Well Every Day, is a perfect, it's perfect because it's so inclusive and it's so actionable.

[1309] And it's so, it's, and that key word there is inclusive.

[1310] When I read it, I felt like this isn't going to create a barrier to entry for anybody and you're a doctor so you could have easily just loquated and done like word porn but you made it really accessible and um actionable and broken down into key categories and you're you're conveying a critically important message to a society that needs to hear it right now so thank you thank you for all of your work in the NHS very selfless and i mean that in and of itself is is you know tremendously commendable and thank you for all of the inspiration because you've certainly inspired me well thank you so much for having me it's a honor to be on this podcast and i've learned a lot as well so thank you oh amazing Alex Thank you so much.