Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend XX
[0] Conan O 'Brien needs a fan.
[1] Want to talk to Conan?
[2] Visit teamcoco .com slash call Conan.
[3] Okay, let's get started.
[4] Hey, Conan O 'Brien here.
[5] And this podcast's a little different today.
[6] Normally on Thursdays, we drop a Conan O 'Brien needs a fan where I talk to anybody anywhere in the world who wishes to speak to me. And it's really fun.
[7] We form these connections.
[8] Well, today's going to be a little different.
[9] If you're a regular listener or you know anything about me, you know that I am a true crime fanatic.
[10] I've always been very interested in true crime since I was a kid.
[11] And probably the biggest, by far, true crime podcast out there is one I really love called Crime Junkie.
[12] And it is hosted by Ashley Flowers, who does an amazing job.
[13] and i had the opportunity recently to sit down and talk to her and this is one of my passions and i thought all right let's uh let's release this in the connor o 'brien uh needs a fan slot conan o 'brien is a fan yes that's what we'll call this one coner o 'brien is a fan of ashley flowers and crime junkie and uh this is my chance to chat with her about our shared passion for all things criminal.
[14] So let's get started.
[15] All my fans know that I am a true crime fanatic.
[16] I think about murder all the time.
[17] I know that sounds nefarious, and it is, by the way, but I'm obsessed with true crime.
[18] And so I'm very excited right now because I have the opportunity to sit with the person who I consider to be the queen slash king of all true crime.
[19] Ashley Flowers from Crime Junkie, Ashley, welcome.
[20] So nice to meet you.
[21] I'm so glad to be here.
[22] I think I work murder into most of the conversations we have.
[23] So would you say that's fair?
[24] Just your overall dialogue, you say murderer, murderer a lot to just even strangers.
[25] I mutter murderer a lot.
[26] Yeah.
[27] I've been since I was a kid, fascinated.
[28] And so, and I'm a big fan of yours and very thrilled for your incredible success, which is well -deserved.
[29] When did you start thinking about true crime, murder?
[30] Was this a childhood thing?
[31] Well, it was.
[32] I grew up, like, but my mom would read to me, the fiction stuff.
[33] Nancy Drew, then we graduated to Agatha Christie.
[34] And then at some point, I realized that these stories weren't all fiction and that the murders and stuff that we were reading about could really have.
[35] happen in real life.
[36] And I think, you know, John Bonnet, when I was real little, that's when I first started, I always say tabloid height.
[37] I was, like, looking at that.
[38] And I think that I started So you were a similar age and you thought, wait a minute, this happened to someone who looks a little like me in real life.
[39] Yeah.
[40] And so, and then I started realizing more and more that these cases were actually happening.
[41] And I was just fascinated.
[42] So I always say my mom was the OG crime junkie, her mom before her.
[43] And I also, someone just brought this up to me the other day.
[44] And I literally had like this aha moment where I grew up super religious, like no Harry Potter, no Furby's, no cabbage patch kids.
[45] I don't know what was wrong with cabbage patch.
[46] Oh, really religious.
[47] Wait, so Harry Potter, Harry Potter, well, Furbies I can see are demonic, but.
[48] You get it?
[49] Yeah, we forbade that in our home, too.
[50] But you're not even religious.
[51] Oh, please.
[52] I'm very, very religious.
[53] Oh, okay.
[54] Yeah, devout Methodist.
[55] Oh, no, wait, wait a minute.
[56] You're Catholic.
[57] Well, same thing eventually.
[58] There's a voice in the sky, and I'm trying to be a good person.
[59] If that's all it was.
[60] I could get behind it.
[61] If that's all it really was.
[62] There's a voice in the sky.
[63] But moving on, so you, yeah, you got.
[64] I couldn't do a lot of things.
[65] And so I think that one of the reasons someone pointed out, maybe you were so invested in this, is because this was one of the things that we could read or watch or whatever, for whatever reason, that was allowed.
[66] And so possibly that's one of.
[67] the reasons I was so deeply invested.
[68] That's so interesting.
[69] So you find something that you love, absolutely love that fascinates you, and you feel like you were put on this earth to do it, and then you get to make a living doing that.
[70] That is, it's truly.
[71] I know that that is so rare, and I say it all the time, that I don't, it feels like work sometimes, but I love every second of it.
[72] I have never worked harder or more in my entire life, but I've never been happier.
[73] I'm curious.
[74] Is there a certain kind of profile of a killing that interests you more than others?
[75] I'm definitely drawn to unsolved cases because I feel like there's something I can do.
[76] And that's kind of been the theme of the whole reason I started this is I was looking for what can I do?
[77] I'm just consuming, consuming, consuming.
[78] I felt like I was taking and taking and taking from the true crime community and I wanted to give back.
[79] I also, which my audience, I think, fucking hates, but I was really drawn to crimes with children.
[80] Yeah.
[81] I was never a fan of a crime story that involved a child, but then once you have kids, it's, you know, and I think Sona, you have kids now, you have a child.
[82] It's like, you just, I have two kids.
[83] I just said a child.
[84] You have two of them.
[85] You have a favorite, that's for sure.
[86] Yeah, a child who I really respect.
[87] And then that other guy.
[88] No. I love them both to death, but to death.
[89] Oh, God.
[90] But I don't think we're meant to understand the concept of the end of the universe or the end of time.
[91] And we're not, our brains are not meant to understand how someone could do that.
[92] I'm also really interested by missing persons cases.
[93] Like this idea that someone can be there living their life and then just vanish into thin air, which obviously is not what happened.
[94] It's not an alien abduction.
[95] But that there's no trace is mind boggling to me. Yeah.
[96] Are you fascinated by this world of true crime?
[97] I think you you know I am I mean I feel like you and I first bonded because of our shared fascination with just murder and that's right when we first we I interviewed Sona chose her to be my assistant we all make mistakes okay and um okay well whatever you know I was young and foolish and uh I wasn't that young I was like how long ago was I was middle aged and foolish no but I swear to God and and and Sona's being super professional, and I'm being professional as the boss.
[98] And we happened to be driving someplace.
[99] The next thing I know, you and I are driving up LCL Drive.
[100] That was your interview?
[101] No, no, this was after the interview.
[102] Very early on working for him.
[103] Like, right, this wasn't part of the, yeah, this is how I, now I'm going to get in big trouble.
[104] Let me drive you to the house.
[105] I was like, I can't tell this is a dream.
[106] We're like, the biggest red flag.
[107] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[108] I know.
[109] No, I know.
[110] I would love it if this was the interview.
[111] Of the nine people I took to the.
[112] Sharon Tate crime scene, only one seemed interested, so she's got the job.
[113] You realize she can't read.
[114] She doesn't have, she doesn't know how to work a computer.
[115] Oh my God.
[116] No, no, it was after you were hired, but I remembered we were both finishing each other's sentences.
[117] And that's when when true crime people find each other, we can finish each other's sentences.
[118] And I'm sure you've had that many times you meet people and, you know, they're in lockstep with you.
[119] Yeah, it's this stuff that you've been dying to talk about, but you don't want to be the weirdo in the room, usually.
[120] And so when you find somebody who you can have those conversations with, it feels amazing.
[121] I think it's also just being in Los Angeles, too.
[122] I feel like L .A. is so rich with just like serial murderers and all these, like, fascinated, twisted murder stories.
[123] It's almost like it's just in the air sometimes.
[124] That's a good ad for L .A. Come to L .A. We're murders in the air.
[125] Murders in the air.
[126] You know, it is.
[127] I have to say, when I first came out here, a million.
[128] years ago to start my career.
[129] I came to L .A. right out of college.
[130] And I remembered driving around and feeling it's such a sprawling place with these long highways.
[131] And it does feel like there's a reason that, you know, Richard Ramirez thrived here, like that that there's a certain, there's a certain kind of killer that almost thrives in the way that L .A. is constructed.
[132] Does that make sense?
[133] Yeah, I get that.
[134] Because you can just disappear and you can, do you know what I mean?
[135] You can come from anywhere.
[136] L .A. is filled with so many people who aren't from here.
[137] And things can feel rootless and creepy if you're driving out in the outer reaches of L .A. There was a guy back in the 60s named Mack Ray Edwards, and he killed children.
[138] And he actually buried them in the freeways in L .A. He worked construction.
[139] And so they're like still there.
[140] And they'll never dig them up because it's too expensive.
[141] they can't shut down the roadways.
[142] It's wild.
[143] That's insane.
[144] I never heard about this.
[145] Macray.
[146] Yeah, we did a whole episode on him.
[147] It was unreal.
[148] This is a very specific question.
[149] But in all of your thinking and all of your, you know, work that you've done on this, is there an effective way to get rid of a body or like a really effective way?
[150] What's the, I mean, clearly everyone, I would think burying a body would be, oh, that's great.
[151] Who's going to find that?
[152] They always find it.
[153] They always find it.
[154] They always find it.
[155] And animals find it.
[156] I mean, you'd have to go.
[157] pretty deep in a pretty remote spot um water seems to be pretty effective very deep water if you can like really wait it down i'm writing this down i i had a waiting down an ex -cop who i worked with for a long time and he was like if you ever need to get rid of a body there's this marshy area in indianapolis and i'm like why are you telling me he's like trust me yeah trust me it never lets me down it's it's like yeah you got to find the places that are just like hard to get you throwing people like over canyons.
[158] And if you can just make it somewhere that isn't easily accessible, even if police have an idea, there's a lack of funds, there's a lack of personnel.
[159] So maybe you can get down there, but you don't have the resources to, or there's a place where you just physically can't get.
[160] And that's...
[161] Breaking Bad made a really good case for a giant vat of acid.
[162] Which, you know, because interesting like, okay, that's great.
[163] Problem.
[164] Then in your credit card history, there's a giant vat of bone dissolving acid.
[165] body be gone I bought three vats Where do you keep that So if they come looking for the missing person You're like ignore the vat in my garage Yeah yeah and then exactly Or then you have to make up like Not's how I cook my turkey You've heard of deep frying I just put it in acid for three minutes I do think construction zones are pretty effective too Like they just build on top of it Then no one will ever look for it You have to break an entire building To find a buy That's what I would do So you would go you would find a construction zone and then just kind of dump it really deep there and then try to like if you knew when they were pouring the concrete ideally yes that's good that's good my little keep in mindstone and my legs are very long just keep in remember how long my legs are I'm just saying because I know what you're thinking I don't think they're like I love this new library why are these long skinny legs sticking out oh yeah I don't know about that everyone would know it was me if you did get murdered i would not i there wouldn't even be a well there would be quite a few suspects but i think they would know it would be me uh yeah sona wrote a very popular book all about uh our our uh our strange relationship yeah and um and the subtext of it is uh i'd like to kill my boss yeah yeah yeah it's really sweet yeah so anyway that will be evidence if anything you have to do me refer to the book um you wrote a novel i did uh and this is your first novel i've i've i've i've i've my hat's off to you.
[166] It's a huge success.
[167] Thank you.
[168] Yeah.
[169] All good people here.
[170] Tell me what led to you writing this novel.
[171] So I had this story, because it's a fiction novel, a little bit away from my true crime background.
[172] And I had this story kind of in the back of my head after hearing so many cases, again, what's the perfect crime, what are the mistakes that made, this idea that we all think we know what's happening in a case and can pass judgment when really we have no idea what's happening.
[173] And for the longest time, I just didn't know what to do with it.
[174] that story because it didn't fit into my true crime world.
[175] I didn't think it would make a good fictional podcast.
[176] I also didn't want to confuse what we were doing and podcasting.
[177] And so finally I decided, you know, if this is going to be anything, I think it's, I think it's big enough that it could be a book.
[178] And I had no idea if it was going to work, but you don't know until you try.
[179] I thought the same thing about the podcast.
[180] And I gave it a go.
[181] And it was a number one New York Times bestseller.
[182] That's fantastic.
[183] It worked.
[184] Yeah.
[185] That's fantastic.
[186] And do you think you're going to write more of them?
[187] I do.
[188] Yeah.
[189] I really want to do another novel, like all good people here.
[190] And then I also want to do something more young adult, like a modern day Nancy Drew.
[191] I was reading Nancy Drew the other day and realize I would like never read it to my daughter.
[192] It's just.
[193] Is it pretty sexist?
[194] Yeah.
[195] It doesn't quite hold up.
[196] I can see that.
[197] I used to read Encyclopedia Brown.
[198] Yeah.
[199] And that was one that was for but the crimes were always just things like that chocolate bar went missing I know you know and I think come on Encyclopedia Brown let's step it up a little bit you know I found it's clear to me who ate the chocolate bar and then the answer was always written at the back of the book like upside down you know how Encyclopedia Brown cracked it it's quite simple really he said and then you find out how he did it the guy had like chocolate on his face it's like pretty lame old chocolate mcgee ate it sticky fingers yeah exactly i think that's cool i think that's cool and i would encourage you i think that's that's a great niche i think i think young women like being able to read young adults it is it's great when women can read yes yes i suppose it is you know i used to be against it and in fairness till very recently yeah about five years ago i came around Yeah, your daughter would read and you'd be like, why?
[200] What is going on?
[201] You should be baking a pie.
[202] Read this, Nancy Drew.
[203] Yeah.
[204] So, but I'm glad you talked to me, Sona, and, you know, and convinced me. I'm really glad I did too.
[205] Yeah.
[206] It's good.
[207] It's good you changed your opinion on that, your position.
[208] And now I also think she should be able to vote.
[209] Oh, okay.
[210] So I'm getting there slowly.
[211] Yeah, yeah.
[212] We're almost there.
[213] A white man on our side.
[214] I need not an ally.
[215] You're a true ally.
[216] A very slow to convert ally.
[217] Ashley, I'm so happy to get to talk to you.
[218] And it's funny because technically it's supposed to be work that we get together and have an interview.
[219] And then it's available on the podcast.
[220] But this is not work at all.
[221] Like I do feel like if we were snowed in and trapped in a diner for like six days, we would just be talking about murder.
[222] I wouldn't even know it was six days.
[223] It would not know it six days.
[224] Well, the food would start to go bad and then you'd know.
[225] And I would really start to stink.
[226] But thank you so much for doing it.
[227] Ashley Flowers, crime junkie, the biggest podcast in the history of podcast.
[228] So congratulations to you.
[229] And thanks for doing this.
[230] Thank you.
[231] This is great.
[232] Conan O 'Brien needs a fan with Conan O 'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Gourley.
[233] Produced by me, Matt Gourley.
[234] Executive produced by Adam Sous.
[235] Jackson, Joanna Soliceroff, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Earwolf.
[236] Music by Jimmy Vivino.
[237] Supervising producer Aaron Blaird.
[238] Associate talent producer Jennifer Samples.
[239] Associate producers Sean Doherty and Lisa Burm.
[240] Engineering by Eduardo Perez.
[241] Please rate, review, and subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.
[242] This has been a team cocoa.
[243] production in association with Stitcher.