Jan. 6, Part 1: ‘The Herd Mentality’

[0] From New York Times, I'm Michael Babaro.

[1] This is the Daily.

[2] One year ago, tomorrow, an unfathomable scene played out at the U .S. Capitol.

[3] Madam Speaker, members of Congress, pursuant to the Constitution and the laws of the United States, the Senate and House of Representatives are meeting in joint session.

[4] That morning, Congress was scheduled to certify the results of the 2020 election, making Joe Biden the next president of the United States.

[5] For weeks, Donald Trump and his allies had been working to subvert those results, pressuring state and local election officials, submitting lawsuit after lawsuit, and calling on the vice president himself not to perform his constitutional duty in certifying Biden's victory.

[6] All of that had failed, and so on January 6th...

[7] Our country has been under siege for a long time.

[8] President Trump went to...

[9] the National Mall.

[10] And you're the real people.

[11] You're the people that built this nation.

[12] You're not the people that urged the thousands of Americans who had gathered there to march on the Capitol and quote, We fight.

[13] We fight like hell.

[14] Fight like hell.

[15] And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

[16] And so.

[17] We are going to the Capitol.

[18] The country watched as scenes of chaos and violence.

[19] played out in the halls of government as rioters flooded through the doors.

[20] Members of Congress were rushed to safety.

[21] And American citizens engaged in hand -to -hand combat with Capitol Police.

[22] Ultimately, 150 law enforcement officials were injured.

[23] And five people were left dead.

[24] The government did this to us.

[25] We were normal, good, law -abiding citizens, and you guys did this to us.

[26] We want our country back.

[27] Today, we begin a three -part look at what happened that day and what it tells us about the state of American democracy.

[28] In part one, my colleague Alan Foyer reports on what we've learned about who the rioters actually were.

[29] and takes us inside an FBI interview with one of them.

[30] It's Wednesday, January 5th.

[31] Alan, we are going to do something a bit different today.

[32] We're going to dive with you into the transcript of an FBI interrogation with a January 6th participant.

[33] And before we do that, I want to talk about why this feels so important to us.

[34] Let's start by talking about what you have been doing in the year since January 6th.

[35] Yeah.

[36] So I have more or less been singularly consumed by the question of who was part of that mob.

[37] From the beginning, there's been a focus on whether there was any real organization on January 6th.

[38] And much of the attention has been on the presence of far -right extremists, people from groups like the Proud Boys and the Oathkeepers.

[39] Obviously, the authorities have also been intensely interested in anyone who attacked police officers, anyone who engaged in clear -cut violence.

[40] You know, those were the people we saw throwing fire extinguishers or beating officers with crutches and hockey sticks.

[41] Right.

[42] But there was a whole other group of people that at least from what we saw that day, seemed to be different.

[43] These were the people who almost appeared to have.

[44] have wandered into the building, who were walking around, taking pictures of the Capitol.

[45] You know, some of them were live streaming themselves as they posed in front of statues and Congressmember's offices.

[46] Right.

[47] I remember that vividly because it was one of the most unexpected images of that day.

[48] Right.

[49] Even though it seemed like they weren't doing all that much, they were part of the mob.

[50] And the fact is, without their collective, physical, physical.

[51] presence, January 6 doesn't happen.

[52] As the government itself has said in countless sentencing documents from January 6th, a riot cannot occur without rioters.

[53] And they point out that each rioter's actions, from the most mundane to the most violent, contributed directly and indirectly to the violence and destruction of that day.

[54] Still, you know, individually, these people don't fit the more.

[55] of the classic far -right extremist.

[56] And so it's felt to me that understanding who those people are and what brought them to that day, that's a very important part of understanding sort of what the hell happened and what it says about this state of our democracy, which of our fellow Americans showed up and why.

[57] And what have we learned about that?

[58] Well, an interesting portrait has emerged of the more than 700 people who have been charged so far.

[59] Just one in ten was a member of a far -right extremist group.

[60] 12 % had a military background.

[61] More than half either had white -collar jobs or own their own businesses.

[62] There were doctors, lawyers, substitute teachers, church deacons.

[63] There was a State Department official.

[64] And in terms of where they came from, where in the country, it doesn't really map neatly onto much of anything.

[65] In fact, if someone lived in a county that Trump won in the 2020 election, they were less likely to be there than if they lived in a county won by Biden.

[66] Really?

[67] Yeah.

[68] And many of these people, they described themselves and were described by people who know them as good neighbors, churchgoers, community leaders.

[69] A lot of them had never been particularly political in the past.

[70] Right.

[71] Until it seems this day.

[72] Right.

[73] Exactly.

[74] So why were they there?

[75] And honestly, it's been hard to answer that question.

[76] You know, I've tried to talk to as many of the people who were there that day as I can, but for obvious reasons, people who are charged with a crime don't often find it in their best interest to talk openly with journalists.

[77] I mean, also, there's just really no single answer to that question.

[78] And so the most expansive look at these people that we have happens to come from three FBI interviews that have been released to the public.

[79] There were hundreds of these interviews done, but for legal reasons, only three have seen the light of day.

[80] And they really do give you an intricate sense of some of the people who were there that day from their own perspective.

[81] And the most revealing of those interviews to me is from a man named Robert Reader.

[82] At the time of the interview, Reader was facing four misdemeanor charges for entering the Capitol.

[83] And as his sentencing approached, Reader's lawyer made the decision to release the transcript of the interview he did with the FBI.

[84] Right, and all of that explains what we are up to today, given the journalistic value of this FBI interview, and because the recording of the interview was not released along with the transcript, we're going to do something, as we said, unusual.

[85] We have worked with voice actors to bring that transcript to life.

[86] The only editing we have done is for length and for clarity because the original interview was more than 100 pages long.

[87] And, Alan, as we're listening, what do you think it's important that people keep in mind about the nature of an FBI interrogation, especially in a case like this?

[88] Well, one thing to keep in mind is that the FBI already knows a lot about Robert Reeder.

[89] He actually voluntarily turned himself into law enforcement.

[90] And as part of that, he handed over lots of photographs and video that he himself took that day.

[91] So the agents have all that.

[92] They also know his biography.

[93] Reader is in his mid -50s.

[94] He's a FedEx driver from suburban Maryland, or he was a FedEx driver at the time of the insurrection.

[95] He's single, and he has a son.

[96] The agents have seen his social media.

[97] They know he was a member of multiple pro -Trump groups on Facebook, though he claims to be a lifelong Democrat.

[98] He posted memes about the voter fraud myth.

[99] He wrote that, quote, civil war is coming and that, again, this is a quote, this time the conservatives will stand their ground and the radicals will die.

[100] But again, like most of the people there, he doesn't have a violent history or are any ties to far right group.

[101] So the FBI agents are less interested in what he did, which they think they know.

[102] And they're more interested in why and how he did it.

[103] And for his part, Reader certainly has his own agenda.

[104] He and his lawyer are in that room essentially to do what they can to diminish his exposure to criminal punishment, which means that it may not be in his interest to be entirely forthcoming about what happened that day.

[105] So there's definitely some cat and mouse going on.

[106] Okay, and finally, Alan, can you set the scene for us for this interview?

[107] Sure.

[108] We are in the FBI field office in Baltimore, Maryland, and we've got two FBI agents.

[109] We've got Robert Reeder himself, and we've got his attorney, and they're sitting in what is presumably a small conference room talking across a table.

[110] You don't happen to have a Kleenex, do you?

[111] We could grab some tissues out of the restroom if you'd like some for you, sir?

[112] No, I just...

[113] Just let me know if at any point, let me know.

[114] I'll step out and get it.

[115] All right, gotcha.

[116] All right.

[117] So I'm just going to start a preamble.

[118] So my name is Special Agent Alexandria Thoman.

[119] I'm here with Special Agent Hunter Locke.

[120] If you wouldn't mind stating your name for the record.

[121] Robert Reeder.

[122] Great.

[123] And so the date is Tuesday, April 20th.

[124] The time is 10 .4.

[125] All right, so I envision this interview being a conversation.

[126] Okay.

[127] We're really trying to paint the picture of, you know, there's so many people there, how every individual found their way there.

[128] Yeah.

[129] So if you wouldn't mind just starting out and painting that picture for us on what brought you to D .C. on the 6th.

[130] And again, just walk us through the timeline of everything.

[131] Okay.

[132] Okay.

[133] Well, first, I'd like to start off with that.

[134] I've never been to a protest or anything like that before in my life.

[135] I decided to go to the gathering at the White House early in the morning, that morning, actually.

[136] I had had someone asked me the night before if I was going to go or if I was interested in going.

[137] I said, no, not at all.

[138] watching the TV, and in the morning when I woke up, just hearing about how large the crowds were going to be the last time that you might be able to see President Trump, what all was going on, for lack of a better reason, I just didn't have anything better to do.

[139] And I enjoy going down to D .C. all the time.

[140] I go there quite frequently just to walk around or bike.

[141] I take my bike down to the mall via the metro.

[142] So just watching the TV kind of inspired me to go that morning.

[143] So I was like, what the heck?

[144] I'll go and check out the crowd, mostly.

[145] I jumped on the metro and went down to the mall and walked over there.

[146] And that's when I started taking pictures.

[147] You can see that probably the first 20 pictures is just videos of me just doing 360s, just showing the crowd.

[148] The only other crowd I'd experienced like that was, probably 4th of July.

[149] Oh, man, I've lived in D .C. for seven years, and I did that one time, and I said never again.

[150] So it was interesting.

[151] It was very peaceful.

[152] Nice people.

[153] President Trump got up to speak.

[154] I got kind of close enough to see the bandstand, but couldn't see him.

[155] Just stood there with everybody else trying to hear what he was saying, but I couldn't hear.

[156] after it was all over and people were all saying that everyone was headed to the Capitol so that's where everybody was going so stupid me followed the herd yeah what would you describe your ideology obviously again complete caveat even people that are ardent Trump supporters like that is not what we're talking to anybody right you can be affiliated with whatever political party have whatever beliefs you have and that's completely fine.

[157] I'm just talking broadly.

[158] How would you describe yourself?

[159] So I'm a registered Democrat, you know, my whole life pretty much.

[160] I've said this so many times to my friends.

[161] I don't like the man Trump, but I like what was happening in America.

[162] I like the message of make America great again, people believing in our country instead of, you know, hating it.

[163] Yeah.

[164] It wasn't him doing a good job.

[165] It was the people he hired, did a good job for our country.

[166] In contrast, I didn't particularly like my party's nominee and what he could possibly do.

[167] I'm not a victim.

[168] I don't want to claim to be a victim of anything, so I don't want to blame the media, but I think that's where it all started, was watching the news.

[169] From months and months prior to the election and everything, and then on Facebook, people bantering, you know, back and forth.

[170] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[171] So when you asked that question, it was listening to the news and having this belief and knowledge of what was going on and kind of being frustrated and questioning was the election stolen.

[172] You know, because at the time, it was the heat of the thing.

[173] People were talking about, you know, oh, the election was stolen or, you know, Trump is still our president, all that stuff.

[174] Do you believe the election was stolen?

[175] No, no. No, now I don't.

[176] I mean, back then I had my doubts based on, and I watch majority CNN, actually.

[177] You know, I don't watch Fox News.

[178] I watch CNN or OAN or local news.

[179] Was it stolen?

[180] Now I don't think that it was.

[181] So a skeptic, maybe, is a good word.

[182] I was skeptical, but that's based on the news feeding, telling me this stuff.

[183] So at this point, are you in front of the initial police barrier?

[184] Are you past it?

[185] No, I'm not.

[186] I'm not past it yet.

[187] I was trying to get, you know, good elevation to see what was going on because I saw that the police and the protesters started to, you know, push against each other at the gate.

[188] I tried to get up higher to video that, and then I guess the barriers fell down and people started to pour through there.

[189] And the Capitol Police officers, for lack of a better word, retreat.

[190] Stupid me, I've gone through this a million times in my mind as to what I was doing there and why what I was doing.

[191] This word, this term, herd mentality is the only thing that I could say or relate to.

[192] It is just everyone was kind of, you know, the gate was open and all the cattle went out.

[193] I'm not trying to minimize what happened, but what I can tell you is that we're having this conversation with many, many, many people.

[194] It's clear to me it's just weighing very heavy on you.

[195] I can feel that from you.

[196] I just appreciate you being truthful with us.

[197] So when I do ask some tough questions, some of them are standard questions and we're asking everybody, all I ask is that you're truthful with us.

[198] Yeah.

[199] Yeah.

[200] Yeah.

[201] Were you involved in any of the physical altercations with the police at this point, at that barrier?

[202] No, I don't think so.

[203] No. I was just with the herd pushing towards, not pushing, just kind of followed them up onto one of the bandstands.

[204] That's when I heard the first flashbang grenade.

[205] Yeah.

[206] Or tear gas grenade, I don't know which it was.

[207] I got the whiff of tear gas, and if you've ever had tear gas, You know what it feels like, the eyes, the choking.

[208] I have asthma.

[209] And I wound up on the, I guess, what you call the mezzanine of the Capitol to try to get away from the tear gas.

[210] And there was a ton of people up there.

[211] And there was a door open there where people were going in and out.

[212] You can see that in the video.

[213] I kind of hesitated at first, but then I turned on the video and I went in because I thought there's a bathroom in there.

[214] there's water in there yeah yeah so i walked in i just wanted to get away and water and clear up my eyes from all the tear gas so um do you know anybody else that was inside no no i didn't talk to anyone i didn't see anyone else that i knew when i was inside the capital i didn't touch anything i heard someone say something like get up on that statue and i'll take a picture of you and i was like, you know, this place is sacred.

[215] Have you been in the rotunda?

[216] Okay, so I find myself in one of the most beautiful places I've ever been.

[217] And I'm literally there just spinning in circles with my camera in disbelief checking the place out.

[218] I was completely blown away by the rotunda.

[219] So I stayed there for several minutes, taking pictures, and then we come down to the hallway towards the house chambers.

[220] So, this is going to sound probably the weirdest of all to you.

[221] I've seen and heard many weird things.

[222] So if there's anything that I really want you to believe me on, is that I didn't know that Congress was in session, that there was any kind of vote going on or anything like that.

[223] I had no idea even at that point.

[224] That was like the goal for people was to try and stop that process.

[225] I had no idea.

[226] That's how dumb I was.

[227] You could see all this gas.

[228] They're gassing in the Capitol or tear gassing in the Capitol.

[229] And then I believe from there, I walked out and I saw two police officers.

[230] And I asked them where a bathroom was.

[231] And they said there wasn't one here.

[232] And then I had to go back the other way.

[233] And that's when I saw Nancy Pelosi's room.

[234] It said Speaker of the House on the thing.

[235] So I took a picture of it, but I didn't go near it.

[236] Did you go into anybody's offices?

[237] No. No offices.

[238] Nope.

[239] I didn't go anywhere that I wasn't supposed to.

[240] Didn't touch anything.

[241] I didn't even touch walls while I was in there.

[242] Right.

[243] And then I left there and I went back to the rotunda and they had closed the doors, I believe, at that point.

[244] And people were like, they've trapped us in here.

[245] So I was like, oh God.

[246] So I saw a Capitol Hill police guard go down this hallway and I went after him and I was like, hey, can you tell me how to get out of here?

[247] I just want to get out of here.

[248] I just want to get out of here.

[249] so he led me down the long hallway and as I was walking down that hallway I saw a large group of police officers appear and I saw the woman that had gotten shot and she was laying there on the ground and they were tending to her and then I kind of could see you know that she was not doing well so I walked out the door immediately I was thinking like go home whatever, just go.

[250] Right.

[251] So I went back around, and that led me past the, I saw them bring the woman out on a gurney and put her into the ambulance.

[252] And so there's a whole mess of people over there that are gathered up on the steps in front of the Capitol, and they're chanting things like, Let Us in, and USA, USA, and doors open up, and everyone, you can see it on my videos.

[253] Everyone's clapping and cheering, yay, yeah, yeah, so they're letting everyone in.

[254] in.

[255] Who is they?

[256] I guess the Capitol Police opened up the doors again.

[257] But did you actually see who opened up the doors?

[258] No, no, I was too far away.

[259] No problem, just verifying.

[260] Well, that's true.

[261] It could have been the protesters.

[262] Yeah.

[263] So the doors opened up, and I get caught in the herd mentality.

[264] Now people are, like, kind of pushing shoulder to shoulder.

[265] It's kind of more tightly packed.

[266] People are going that way, so I'm kind of following.

[267] And I go back into the capital with everybody else.

[268] And so what made you go back inside after fighting?

[269] Fighting is probably a strong word, but finding your way out?

[270] There was no reason.

[271] I just, the herd mentality, just found myself back in the, I was just with the crowd and people were going in and I'm just videotaping it.

[272] That's all.

[273] I don't know why.

[274] And I wish, I really wish that I could answer that, at least for myself.

[275] My lawyer said, why'd you go back in?

[276] And it's like, I don't know.

[277] I went in the foyer, kind of stepped aside.

[278] But then the crush and the, please look at the video, you can see that it's actually, I'm being pushed towards into the rotunda by people behind because they close the doors and everyone coming behind.

[279] So as I get pushed into there, people are literally being.

[280] being crushed.

[281] This is what I call the crush.

[282] Two girls were panicking.

[283] One had passed out.

[284] The guy was yelling for his girlfriend or whoever wife.

[285] I don't know.

[286] She had passed out and he was holding her up.

[287] Another one was passed.

[288] I felt dizzy and was passing out.

[289] So there's this push back and forth and I'm trying to videotape that.

[290] Now, it said in the thing that I videotaped the assault on the officer.

[291] Now, I yelled retreat.

[292] If you look at that video, I'm standing next to the officer, but I'm telling the people in front that are pushing our way to retreat.

[293] I'm not telling the cop to retreat.

[294] I'm telling the people that's in front that's crushing him because he's like, okay, you know?

[295] Yeah.

[296] I mean, we were close to the point of passing out at that point.

[297] So, to be clear, when you say, quote, you need to retreat, you're talking to the crowd or the officer?

[298] The crowd of protesters?

[299] Protesters.

[300] Okay.

[301] Because you were right up on, you were right up there with the police officer.

[302] And I can fully, I can't, I can't imagine what.

[303] Shoulder to shoulder.

[304] I can't imagine what that felt like.

[305] Again, I don't do crowds.

[306] That's like my worst nightmare.

[307] How did you find yourself that close to the officer?

[308] He was down.

[309] At this point, this was a matter of almost panic and survival for anyone that was there, whether it was the police officer next to me, everyone was getting crushed.

[310] I mean, I couldn't breathe.

[311] That's, you know, this is, we can, where people die.

[312] Eventually, they got the front door open and they were able to push those 50, 60, 70, 80 people out the door.

[313] And soon as I got clear, and on the steps, I went about halfway down the Capitol stairs and sat down and rested, caught my breath.

[314] I was just physically exhausted from being crushed.

[315] Yeah.

[316] So then I went down to the bottom of the stairs.

[317] That's when I took the video saying, I'm leaving the capital now and all this stuff.

[318] And I mistakenly said the word, did battle with the police.

[319] Well, I was going to ask you about that.

[320] Completely stupid choice of words.

[321] So what did you mean when you said that?

[322] I just meant, gosh, nothing that means probably what at face value that statement on paper would me. I really don't know.

[323] It just meant that we got in, I don't want to say, a pushing match, which is what happened.

[324] It was just a very bad choice of words.

[325] The protesters were in conflict with the police.

[326] I really don't know what to say.

[327] You know, I mean, at that time I wasn't, again thinking, right?

[328] I was...

[329] Because you don't strike me as a violent person.

[330] And having gone through everything, having gone through your phone, having reviewed the capital footage, and talking to you now, that still rings true to me that you're not a violent person.

[331] But I can only imagine where you're, when you were in that position, in the crush, you're just caught in a crowd that, you know, you can gut instinct to react to something.

[332] at any point when you were inside or outside, did you physically have an altercation with the Capitol Police?

[333] So I'll get to that in just a moment.

[334] You know, I love my country.

[335] I've always supported the police.

[336] I have family in law enforcement.

[337] A lot of my friends are in law enforcement, like you guys, not just police.

[338] I support our police 110%.

[339] I am a scoutmaster.

[340] I've been doing stuff in Boy Scouts for almost 10 years.

[341] And I have an at -large C. Been on the camping chair for the entire district, which oversees 13 ,000 boys.

[342] I coach.

[343] I've coached baseball for several years.

[344] Coach soccer, two different leagues, including the championship thing.

[345] Very involved in my church.

[346] All that has gone away since this.

[347] All of it has gone away.

[348] I still support our police 110%.

[349] You know, I think the police and teachers should get a pay race.

[350] So, no, I'm not violins.

[351] towards any police what happened was that I saw the this police like these police came out the door and there was a cop that was hitting this woman and she was I think bloodied and he threw her down the stairs and I was like come on are you kidding me a woman you had to beat up on a woman and I'm yelling at the guy and you you'd probably find the videos of this but he lunges toward me and he knocks me down on the ground and so I'm I'm flat on my back, and people came from behind him and pushed him down.

[352] Like, he was coming back up on top of me, but I was down on the ground in the fetal position.

[353] Yeah.

[354] And I just pushed him back up.

[355] I didn't kick or anything like that.

[356] I just helped him back up, and he got up, and he kind of got absorbed by the crowd.

[357] He might not have even, like, you know, meant to push me or something like that.

[358] like it could have been someone pushing him.

[359] Oh, yeah?

[360] All I know is that I went down on the ground.

[361] And then I believe someone, people pushed him on top of me. That was it.

[362] And then someone grabbed me from behind and yanked me up and picked me up.

[363] And at that point, I was like, I need to get out of here no matter what.

[364] So I headed back towards the front of the Capitol.

[365] And I stopped there and I took two last pictures, jumped off the wall and went down the sidewalk off the Capitol grounds and directly to Union Station.

[366] I jumped on the metro train.

[367] It only took like 40, 45 minutes to get back home.

[368] I got in the house and turned on the TV, and they were showing pictures of what was happening at the Capitol.

[369] Made me sick.

[370] I mean, whatever you want to call it, but I felt sick.

[371] And I'm like, I hope the police get those guys, you know, and arrest them.

[372] And I realized, wait a second, I was there an hour ago.

[373] I didn't have any political agenda.

[374] I didn't want to do no violence or no harm or anything.

[375] I didn't even know.

[376] Like I said, those people are in session for a vote on anything.

[377] And, you know, I just, I don't want to be known or remembered as someone that took part in that thing because I wasn't a member of those people.

[378] I'm not affiliated.

[379] I don't want to be associated with those people that went there to, with a plan to do harm or create violent or whatever it was.

[380] I don't want to be part of that in remembering, remembrance, because that's not who I am or what I was there for.

[381] I made some stupid, stupid decisions, and to say that it's the biggest mistake of my life is an understatement.

[382] So I guess this is probably a good time for me to ask this question.

[383] Is there anything that you feel like you should let us know about, or just is there anything that we haven't asked that you feel like you would want to tell us?

[384] today?

[385] No. This is my personal feeling is that, you know, if those guards had just said something like you can't come in here, sir, or no, this is, you know, closed building or you got to exit now or anything like that, I wouldn't have gone in the building and I would have been home and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[386] Now, I'm not saying it's their fault, but it's almost like they wanted us to come in there and they closed the doors.

[387] And then they have their sound bite for the news, you know, like, oh, Trump supporters came in and storm the Capitol and stuff like that.

[388] That's just a personal opinion and feeling, but I don't, I mean, they talk about how secure the Capitol.

[389] I mean, I walked in there like I was a congressman almost, you know, and that's why I kept on, like, where's the security point?

[390] I just regret being down the whole thing, starting with listening to the news, starting with listening to the news, and then deciding to go down there on a whim that morning.

[391] It's just the biggest mistake of my life and I'm not saying that I'm not innocent, but I just don't want to be lumped in with those other people that I want you guys to go and get and, you know, prosecute.

[392] This whole ordeal has cost me more than you can imagine.

[393] When we started out, you said, you know, I can imagine how you feel or what...

[394] I've lost my job.

[395] I've lost the ability to coach and scouts, which was really meaningful to me. I don't even want to go back to my church, which is one of the largest in Maryland.

[396] I used to have my son all the time, but my son's name is Robert Reeder.

[397] So my son, who had nothing to do with this, is known to feel the effects, and he's now staying with his mother.

[398] I don't see him much anymore because she doesn't, and he doesn't want.

[399] to, you know, because of this disgrace, and it's going to follow him around too because of his name.

[400] My neighbors won't even talk to me anymore, and we had great relationships, but they all talk and found out and, you know, be walking out to my car and see him, and I'll say hi, and they won't even say hi back, and that hurts.

[401] It's changed the way that I live my life.

[402] You know, one of my cures is not to watch the news.

[403] I mean, I don't even know what the weather's going to be.

[404] And yeah, I can't.

[405] But I don't do anything.

[406] My whole life has been changed, turned upside down because of this stupid, stupid mistake that I made.

[407] When I said earlier that I can imagine, what I meant is I can't imagine, because I haven't been in your shoes.

[408] What I can tell you, though, is that I do believe that you've been truthful here today, even when we're asking the tough questions.

[409] again, part of it is I'm just going through our list and you're doing all the right things.

[410] You know, you can't change the past, but impact the future and you're doing all the right things to get yourself there.

[411] Thank you for saying that.

[412] And I mean, I want to say, it's like I want to say I didn't do anything wrong, but I know that I did.

[413] I was there.

[414] I went into the Capitol without permission.

[415] I should have known better.

[416] but again this whole not thinking and just walking in like like it was okay to like no one stopped me I want to say I didn't do anything wrong but but I know that I did do you have any other questions I don't have any other questions no uh you have any questions or anything all right I think we're all set here and they're recording we'll be right back okay Alan let me try to sum up that interrogation.

[417] By his telling, Robert Reeder is a single father, a FedEx worker who, driven by some combination of boredom, questions about the election, and in part his simple geographic proximity to Washington, makes his way with the crowd to the U .S. Capitol on January 6th.

[418] Once inside, he says he pretty quickly wants to find his way out of the Capitol, but then is unable to explain why he goes back into the Capitol.

[419] He insists that he didn't understand the intention of some in the mob that day to block Congress from certifying Biden's election victory.

[420] He says he's sickened by their actions, wants them held accountable.

[421] He expresses remorse, and the FBI investigators tell him that they believe him.

[422] So ultimately, what do you make of Reader's account?

[423] Is this typical?

[424] Actually, it is.

[425] In my reporting, I found that what Reader's saying is really not that unusual at all.

[426] A lot of people have this same story.

[427] They say they were going with the herd.

[428] They say they were truly remorseful about what happened.

[429] They talk about the devastating impact it's had on their lives.

[430] And, you know, it's entirely possible that many of them do feel that way.

[431] You know, but it's also the case that every participant in January 6th would have an interest in talking about themselves like that.

[432] The passerby, the hapless participant.

[433] the person who was more motivated by curiosity than by any driving ideology or desire to violently overturn an election.

[434] Right.

[435] But is it true?

[436] Right.

[437] We already knew from reader's social media that he had grown more extreme in his political beliefs than he's portraying to the FBI in this interview.

[438] But after the interview, there's actually a new piece of evidence that, emerges that challenges Reader's account and further complicates the image that he's putting forward.

[439] And what is that new information?

[440] So four months after Reader is interrogated by the FBI, he's scheduled for his sentencing hearing in front of a federal judge in Washington.

[441] But literally just a few hours before the sentencing starts, a new video of Reader from January 6 emerges.

[442] It's actually dug up by this group of amateur online detectives who have been helping track down participants in January 6th.

[443] They call themselves sedition hunters.

[444] And this new footage, it shows Reader in an altercation with a police officer.

[445] And so what do you see in that video?

[446] So you actually see the scene that Reader was describing to the agents during his interview.

[447] You know, he's kind of described this event as a police officer falling on top of him in the chaos of things, and, you know, he helps the officer back up onto his feet.

[448] Right.

[449] But in the video, you just see Reader in a much more confrontational position towards the cop.

[450] You know, it's this kind of confusing melee of pushing and shoving, but it just looks a lot more like an altercation than what Reader had described to the FBI.

[451] So this video establishes what sure looks like a discrepancy between what actually happened and what reader wants the FBI to think.

[452] Definitely.

[453] So what happens after this video surfaces?

[454] So something kind of unusual.

[455] The sentencing hearing that was supposed to go off that day is actually called off, and it's delayed two months so that both sides can review the video.

[456] And in the end, the Justice Department decides to stick with the original misdemeanor charges.

[457] They're not going to charge Reader with anything additional like assault.

[458] But what they do is that they ask that his sentence be increased from the two months they had originally requested to six months.

[459] During the hearing, the judge actually notes the discrepancies in Reader's account.

[460] And he says that some of Reader's statements to law enforcement were, quote, disingenuous and self -serving, and that, quote, it's rewriting history and the facts to say, you didn't know what was going on.

[461] I've had too many people say that to me. By which he means too many January 6th participants.

[462] That's correct.

[463] That's correct.

[464] You know, Reader, for his part, apologizes, and he calls the riot disgusting.

[465] he calls his own actions shameful and inexcusable.

[466] The judge acknowledges that reader appears remorseful, and ultimately he kind of splits the difference and he sentences reader to three months in jail.

[467] Three months for participating in the storming of the Capitol on January 6th.

[468] Yeah.

[469] I mean, if you look at it overall, January 6th has...

[470] It's just been a strange case for prosecutors, because for about half of the participants charged so far, the ones who didn't engage in the more overt acts of violence or conspiracy, you know, they're ultimately being charged with what amounts to trespassing or disorderly conduct.

[471] Despite the fact that there are likely many of them like Reader, for whom the line between quote -unquote hapless participant and wanderer and someone capable of real violence seems actually pretty thin.

[472] Yeah, exactly.

[473] And I think that's precisely why I've been consumed by this story and by the question of who was in the mob.

[474] I mean, here, I'll share with you one of the most shocking facts about the people who were there on January 6th.

[475] By and large, the people who acted most violently that day were actually the ones who had the least violent backgrounds.

[476] the people who acted the most violently on January 6th were the least likely to have had a history of violence.

[477] That's right.

[478] The people who were charged with violent assaults on police officers, the ones wielding hatchets and using fire extinguishers, only a very, very tiny fraction of them had any connection at all to right -wing extremist groups.

[479] Wow.

[480] Yeah.

[481] You know, so in other words, even among 200 plus people who are charged with serious assaults that day, they too are in many cases not people that we understood to be a threat.

[482] They too are the neighbors and the churchgoers and the people who serve this country.

[483] And, you know, that's why I and others have been calling this a mass radicalization of, quote -unquote, ordinary Americans.

[484] You know, for the last few months, I've been talking to a University of Chicago professor.

[485] He studies extremist threats and terrorism.

[486] And he has been pouring over the data from January 6th and trying to figure out what we can learn about who was there.

[487] And one of the things that he is most alarmed by is the emergence of this huge number of Americans who don't fit the profile of typical extremists, but who believe that the election was.

[488] stolen.

[489] He estimates that 21 million Americans say they believe that Trump won, that Biden lost, and that violence is justified to return Trump to the office they believe rightfully belongs to him.

[490] 21 million Americans.

[491] Yes.

[492] So you put all this together and what does it tell you.

[493] You know, what it says is that if there's ever going to be another January 6 or something that resembles January 6, it most likely is not ultimately going to be because of far -right extremists or people with violent histories.

[494] It's going to be because of people like Robert Reeder.

[495] People who harbor some sense of doubt or anger or resentment.

[496] and for whatever reason, decide to show up and become just part of the herd.

[497] Alan, thank you very much.

[498] Well, thank you, Michael.

[499] Tomorrow, in part two of our coverage of January 6th and the State of American Democracy, a conversation with Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming.

[500] We'll be right back.

[501] Here's what else you need to another day.

[502] On Monday, the White House said it was doubling its orders of Pfizer's antiviral pills for COVID, from 10 million to 20 million treatments, saying it hoped they would help alleviate the burden of the Omicron variant on hospitals.

[503] As of Tuesday, nearly 100 ,000 Americans were hospitalized with COVID, but the Pfizer pills, called Paxlovid, remained scarce.

[504] And...

[505] I've been stuck just a second.

[506] south of Quantico, Virginia, on I -95 for at least 15 hours.

[507] Hundreds of drivers became trapped on Interstate 95, one of the nation's busiest roads, for more than 24 hours after a fast -moving winter storm created dangerous conditions and caused dozens of accidents.

[508] Now, I don't know who's in charge, but somebody better do something because there cars and families just trapped here.

[509] Those trapped in their cars described rationing gas and food to make it through a bitterly cold night until they were rescued on Tuesday.

[510] But the interstate remained blocked late into the evening because some cars were abandoned by their drivers.

[511] Today's episode was produced by Astha Chatharvedi and Austin Mitchell with help from Chelsea Daniel.

[512] It was edited by Lisa Tobin and.

[513] Michael Benoit contains original music from Marion Lazzano and Dan Powell, was sound engineered by Marion Lazzano, engineered by Corey Schrebel, and fact -checked by Caitlin Love.

[514] It featured voice acting by Stephen Pascual and Aaron Hebert, voice casting by Shelley Chenoy, and voice directing by Austin Mitchell and Dan Powell.

[515] Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.

[516] Special thanks to Maddie Massiello and Michael Paulson.

[517] That's it for the daily.

[518] I'm Michael Bobo.

[519] See you tomorrow.