EXPERTS ON EXPERT: Michael Gervais

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, this edition of Experts on Expert with your host, Monica Padman and her boy toy, Dan Shepard.

[1] Today we have a very interesting human being on.

[2] Very.

[3] And I'm not even that into sports, because it really transcends sports, doesn't it?

[4] Yeah.

[5] But Michael Jervais is a sports psychologist or a high performance psychologist, and he works with some amazing folks.

[6] He worked with that crazy bonkers Red Bull guy who jumped out from outer space.

[7] Also works with the Seattle Seahawks.

[8] He really knows his shit.

[9] He was great.

[10] Yeah, it was really fun to talk to him about how one trains their mind to accomplish their goals.

[11] And how to even find out what your goal is and your purpose.

[12] Mental gymnastics.

[13] He's a mental gymnast.

[14] And physical gymnastics.

[15] He also has a podcast called Finding Mastery with Michael Jervais.

[16] I encourage you to listen to that.

[17] It's really interesting.

[18] Also, there are a few tickets left for San Francisco, so if you haven't gotten those, please swing on over to our website, Armchairexpertpod .com.

[19] Follow the link, and you can get tickets for that before it's too late.

[20] Please enjoy Michael Jervais.

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[24] free wherever you get your podcasts.

[25] He's an I'm Shakespeare.

[26] Michael Drevei.

[27] How are you?

[28] Fantastic.

[29] Thank you.

[30] Welcome to Experts on Expert.

[31] I'm really excited to talk to you because we haven't really talked to anyone that does what you do.

[32] No. And in fact, you have a very, not to undermine it, but a very niche endeavor.

[33] I can't imagine that there are too many folks in your field, are they?

[34] Well, there's a large industry of psychologists.

[35] Then there's a smaller industry of sport and performance.

[36] and then much smaller of folks that are spending time in hostile and rugged environments.

[37] And so in sports psychology, pretty niche, right?

[38] And so that's really the study of the extraordinary.

[39] How do the extraordinary people do what they do?

[40] Well, one thing I was listening to you talk on this topic, you were pointing out that historically psychology was kind of a pursuit of pathology or looking for, you know, things that were wrong with people's thinking or mental processes.

[41] and that there was a shift 40 or 50 years ago where people started going, well, hold on, let's look at extraordinary things that are happening or highly efficient things that are happening.

[42] Did I get that right?

[43] Yeah, that's it.

[44] That's exactly it.

[45] Yeah, traditional cycle was born out of the medical model.

[46] And, you know, that's got to study the dysfunction of things.

[47] That's where we started.

[48] Yeah.

[49] And so it's very different now.

[50] You know, the interest, I think, is much higher for the study of, and I'm talking about broadly speaking, for how the most extraordinary thinkers and doers in the world to operate and condition themselves to be able to do just that.

[51] Yes.

[52] The interest is higher there.

[53] Yes.

[54] Because we are more attuned to want to know how to explore our potential rather than to identify the things that are not working well.

[55] Yeah.

[56] There seems to be this kind of cottage industry in the book world of exploring, you know, famous people who have been extraordinary in their functionality at some given profession.

[57] Like even I read Outliers, of course, I was drawn to that.

[58] I don't know if you read that Malcolm Gladwell book.

[59] Even Essentialism, I don't know if you know about that book.

[60] But again, it kind of does these quick portraits of people who are, you know, have some enviable achievement.

[61] And we are, we seem to be kind of obsessed with people who are, you know, special in that regard.

[62] Oh, for sure.

[63] I mean, we always have been.

[64] Oh, okay.

[65] So there's a history of this?

[66] Oh, yeah.

[67] I mean, you think, well, like, let's go back to Da Vinci.

[68] fascinated, you know, even at the time.

[69] Oh, people.

[70] Mozart, you know, like, and then even more modern times, like Mother Teresa, you know, even though she's not an artist per se.

[71] She might have been one of the most famous women in the world without a PR firm.

[72] Yeah, yeah, she really broke through and without social media or anything.

[73] Yeah, right?

[74] Like, it'd be hard pressed to find someone that doesn't know who she is or what she stood for.

[75] Yes.

[76] Although the church, the Catholic Church, very famous amplifier of messages, they do have the network they can disseminate info pretty quickly and do other things with information as well yeah they can really bury it they can bury it yeah they've been quite really power it's less so recently information's a currency yes so just to give like a a a little some breadcrumbs of where we'll end up michael you you both worked with the guy who jumped out of the red bull stratos but if people remember this is a guy who he jumped from technically outer space right was that's it yeah what was his elevation when he did that just about 130 ,000 feet 130 ,000 feet that's incredible because the moon's only 234 ,000 miles or something like that yeah the project was named after the stratosphere so it's Red Bull stratos so he went right to the edge if you will of space I mean the environment there is one of the most hostile environments in the world right you know blood boils you can't breathe without support and it is a one of the most dangerous environments he went up in a capsule what was it being elevated through like a weather balloon type situation huge weather balloon that took him up to that distance and it was designed to basically stall or stop at that place you know around in that range right well right right there already out of the gates that range that range i mean did they run any kind of um you know trial without him in it just to see if it yeah there was lots these are some of the brightest minds in aerospace that had a real interest this wasn't like a hey let's go get you know a couple balloons and see what we can do.

[77] This was like, these were some of the brightest minds in aerospace, trying to sort out what happens if we're going to leave this planet, what happens if we have to hit the eject button, right?

[78] Right.

[79] So there was a great endeavor that went into it.

[80] At the same time, there, you know, there is a real interest from Felix to know, like, can I, could I?

[81] Can I be the first to do it?

[82] Maybe the only?

[83] Like, there's that part of it as well.

[84] Of course.

[85] Winning glory.

[86] Yeah, for sure.

[87] Was there any kind of collaboration with any kind of like NASA type?

[88] Yeah, it was it, you know, the officially, the names of the folks and the industries that were part of it are off, off record.

[89] Okay, so all the aerospace engineers and stuff.

[90] Yeah, yeah, the official stuff.

[91] But there was, there was some support.

[92] I actually don't know the exact kind of where that gray area is.

[93] So I'll just say that yes.

[94] Right.

[95] So they probably contracted some kind of aerospace.

[96] based JPL type folks to assist.

[97] Exactly right.

[98] Right.

[99] And it was all funded by Red Bull in their endless pursuit of the impossible, which is entertaining as hell to watch.

[100] I feel grateful I was born in an era where they're like funding stupid things.

[101] It is wild.

[102] And you know what's interesting is that you and I watch them and they are, we see crazy.

[103] But we miss, like let's say Felix, we missed when he jumped off the curb just a little bit earlier than everyone else.

[104] We missed when he jumped off the fourth step when everyone else was jumping off the third step of the stairway.

[105] You know, so we missed when he jumped out of a tree, when he jumped, you know, fill in the blanks.

[106] We're joining him at the apex of his pursuit.

[107] Yeah, so it's a totally different experience.

[108] He's highly skilled.

[109] Right.

[110] Incredible.

[111] How does one become skilled at falling out of an object?

[112] I mean, it's kind of like, like I remember just side note I was I did this movie without a paddle and I there was a stunt in it where we jumped off of like 120 foot waterfall and I very much want to do that because that was my hobby as a kid was jumping off bridges and stuff and they said well no we can't allow you to do it because you haven't been trained for it and I go what are you talking about train there's no training for jumping off a waterfall you just fucking jump and you land on not flat water and you keep your arms in like what are you talking about training there's no school for jumping off waterfalls anyways that's a did you do it um they did not let me what was really helpful for my ego is that Bert Reynolds was also in the movie and he said that he pulled me aside and he said did you see deliverance and I go yeah love it you're my hero started then he goes remember when I went down that waterfall and I'm like yeah he goes I broke my back and you can't tell it's me let the guys jump off the waterfall I was like all right if birds telling me to pass I can stomach this you know so I've been fascinated though most of my life like and we can use your story as an example like why did you to jump why why did you want to do something that was dangerous that in in a sane mind that's not what we're supposed to do we're supposed to protect ourselves we're supposed to like take care of our next generation we're supposed to provide resources for our loved ones like why did you want to do that i wonder that too i don't have that at all i never want to jump off the waterfall right even if everyone's doing it i could care less about that well my thing i now understand to be tribalism rights of passage, proving my willingness to get into a life -threatening situation so that my brothers know that I'll be there for them.

[113] Like, I now understand the mechanics evolutionarily why I was drawn to that stuff.

[114] But I will put on top of that another layer, which is no dad around trying to get male approval from all peers.

[115] And so anything that earned you glory or gave you manhood, I was the first to sign up.

[116] I fought.

[117] I drank too much.

[118] I tried to have sex with everyone.

[119] Like anything, you know, all the generic bullet points, I was just running through.

[120] If you were to ask me 12 years ago, I would just say, like, well, I just like it.

[121] And I would have trusted that, yes, and it does for me. We used to jump up this railroad bridge in Ann Arbor all the time.

[122] It's an amazing sensation.

[123] I just really love it.

[124] But I now understand there was way more happening than that.

[125] So you've done some work.

[126] Yes, yes.

[127] I'm 14 years sober, so it kind of requires you to do, you know.

[128] Well, some people white knuckle it.

[129] That's true.

[130] Yeah.

[131] That's a hard way to go now.

[132] Exactly.

[133] You know, I meet people all the time that they're doing it, which is great.

[134] And I go, yeah, but can I just be honest with you, the quitting drinking was the least I got out of this experience.

[135] I mean, literally, that's the least important thing for my life at this point.

[136] Yeah, that's cool.

[137] Back to, were you drawn to those things?

[138] Oh, yeah.

[139] You were.

[140] Yeah, I mean, so I grew up in action sports and action adventure sports are those things that are just a little off -access, backcountry type sports, as opposed to soccer.

[141] or stick in ball sports.

[142] Like, I played them as a kid, but I didn't fit in.

[143] I didn't like the manufactured part of it.

[144] Uh -huh.

[145] And so, yeah, I've always been drawn to that.

[146] And there's an aliveness.

[147] Okay, I'm going to armchair theorize on you as well.

[148] Just tell me if this holds water at all.

[149] Also, your dad worked too much, right?

[150] Yes.

[151] When dad works too much or dad's not there, dad can't do reps in the yard.

[152] He's not going to throw you the ball 80 times to shoot baskets.

[153] You're not going to run long for a pass.

[154] So I didn't have anyone at home working with me on any of that stuff.

[155] So those are organized sports.

[156] When I showed up, I felt so behind the buck.

[157] Everyone else was so advanced.

[158] And I was like, fuck these things.

[159] I'm drawn to any individual sport where no one's dad could have passed on snowboarding because it didn't exist or skateboarding or be a max.

[160] So I have to imagine that's in your soup somewhere.

[161] I like that you've done your homework.

[162] It's good.

[163] And I like that you recognize armchair.

[164] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[165] I've got no business making this assessment.

[166] Both of those are really, really good, you know.

[167] uh dad worked a lot and then um was around for sure to play sports to to he was actually coach for my soccer team oh he was okay so there was some of that engaged but you're spot on about like there is a draw to the borderless environments where there's there's really very few rules and so that was actually the draw more than like i didn't i didn't fit in because i couldn't catch the ball it Wasn't that.

[168] Okay.

[169] Yeah, it was more like, wait a minute, this is all manufactured, and there's a lot of rules going on.

[170] Yeah.

[171] And that doesn't feel right.

[172] Like, I don't feel like that's the DNA of the human.

[173] Yeah.

[174] And so I was more attracted to the other stuff.

[175] Did you, or do you have an aversion in general to male authoritarian or disciplinarian types?

[176] It's a really good question because, so I'm currently, for the last eight years, I've been up with the Seattle Seahawks, the NFL team.

[177] And when John Schneider, the GM and coach Carol, Pete Carroll, the head coach, when they draft players, there's an insight and an understanding that when there's not a male figure around for extraordinary talent, like we're betting big on, you know, extraordinary talents.

[178] And there's a difference in the way that we engage with them and coach when there was a male figure around and when there wasn't.

[179] Yeah.

[180] It's so awesome.

[181] Flat out.

[182] You know, and there's just a different sensitivity.

[183] Are you allowed to tell me how those approaches differ?

[184] Oh, sure.

[185] Yeah.

[186] I think that, you know, this is not a rule.

[187] Right.

[188] In fact, I thought.

[189] But the idea is that if there wasn't a male figure that had that baritone voice and that occupied the space that you would imagine from a larger voice, call it a male energy for lack of a more articulate placeholder, that as soon as a coach takes that space.

[190] So there's a baritone voice, there's a large presence, and there is a suggestion or a command that what you're doing is not good enough, that all of a sudden it's like new territory and all of the alpha tendencies pipe up.

[191] And one or two things happen, fight or flight.

[192] So they get small, right, which is rare in alpha sports.

[193] They get small.

[194] Or they, let's use a phrase, like a comma phrase, they bow up.

[195] And like, what, what?

[196] You can't talk to me like.

[197] And it's like, wait a minute, I'm actually not addressing you.

[198] I'm just using, I'm decoding right.

[199] I'm using my voice to say what you're doing is not good enough.

[200] And so there's this over attachment to the person being criticized and then the male energy of, you know, that kind of booming presence, if you will.

[201] Yeah.

[202] And there's layers too, right.

[203] So it's complicated.

[204] There's A, you didn't have dad.

[205] You weren't used to that being kind of bossed around by a guy.

[206] And you don't know the reward of it because at least those guys got male approval.

[207] They got dad's approval and they felt like they were becoming men.

[208] But I'll add into it, single mom means random dudes come around, which was my experience.

[209] And it's like, here comes a new dude with a whole game plan, how we should live.

[210] A whole trust thing.

[211] There's layers on trust as well.

[212] And you get to an age, you're like, no, no, I'm an adult now.

[213] The days of me listening to some random dude, tell me what the game plan is, is out the window.

[214] And those guys that I trusted, they left.

[215] Yes.

[216] You know, so who are you now telling me what to do?

[217] But the essence, the net net of it is that it is hard to be coached.

[218] It is hard to be in a relationship.

[219] where the person is pointing out the things that are not good enough.

[220] And that's an amateur coach.

[221] World class coaches, like the best coaches in the world, they are in a relationship to want to see a person flourish.

[222] They ask way more questions than give directives.

[223] And they really deeply regard the experience of the doer and the thinking patterns that support the doer.

[224] So they ask a lot more questions yeah and it is the positive reinforcement also amplified or i don't think so no okay so that that so if we if we broke it up into bands i like we're talking about this because i don't talk about this like this is like i don't know this is this is a conversation i rarely get oh good yeah so fascinating well i can promise you this is the first time i've had it so yeah like i'm delighted to hear that that's even a strategy that exists go them going so i just think there's this really bullheaded especially in sports it's like no no you're not bending to your will you get with the fucking program or you get on another team which sure there are those programs a quick way to go through it but you could be leaving you know the next alan iverson out in the curb because you didn't you know you could have gotten a lot more could have been short -sighted there's lots of ways to create cultures to you know bring out talent if you will there are not a whole lot of ways to create a culture that celebrate people's uniqueness and to help them flourish both on and off the sporting environment.

[225] And that's something that Coach Carroll has done an extraordinary way, is that he is, you know, and I'd love to go into detail about this, but he has created a relationship -based approach.

[226] And so not an outcome -based approach, but a relationship -based culture that is designed to understand the person, their core, what they're about, what they want, and then backfill via an agreement, right?

[227] Sometimes it's in a visible handshake.

[228] Sometimes it's really clear and written, but an agreement that, okay, we understand the fabric of what we think is possible.

[229] And the athlete, you know, nods their head and there's a calibration back and forth, like, yeah, okay, let's agree that we're going to work towards that.

[230] Uh -huh.

[231] And then we backfill all of the psychological tools, all the physical tools and technical tools, and that becomes the essence of the culture.

[232] Now, what does it do to, Because again, if I were a head coach, I can imagine fearing that.

[233] Well, shit, if I give Jim these set of parameters and then I got to give Kyle these set, there will be players who are resentful, let's say players who had dads and aren't afraid of authority or whatnot.

[234] There's going to be different rules probably or seemingly there's not.

[235] No, that's different.

[236] So rules are a different thing.

[237] This is like the essence and the fabric of the agreement.

[238] How you're being talked to and communicated to.

[239] Yeah, the agreement that you're making to go on this thing together.

[240] And whatever, this doesn't, this is, you know, sport is just an app metaphor for life, really, in many ways, right?

[241] And so this is an agreement.

[242] This could be a father, son.

[243] This could be a spouse where what is possible for you, start there.

[244] Like what, what is possible in your life?

[245] Not probable, but what is possible.

[246] And I have a quick question there.

[247] Yeah.

[248] How does one assess what's possible?

[249] Because it's the unknown, right?

[250] Isn't that great?

[251] Yeah.

[252] That is where I think the genius of imagination comes in calibrated with history.

[253] Okay.

[254] You know, so it's like balancing those two things because if you're just using your imagination alone and it's not grounded in something that has some evidence, it's a little crazy.

[255] Right.

[256] You can't say, oh, I want to run a three second, 40 -yard dash.

[257] Yeah, right.

[258] And you haven't trained.

[259] And right, and no one's ever done it.

[260] The fact that no one's ever done it is not the problem.

[261] But it's that you're deconditioned or have never been conditioned.

[262] but it's not grounded in a place that's real.

[263] But now you're getting into the art of bringing out the best in other people.

[264] And so that is a really cool skill.

[265] And again, whether it's a relationship, whether it's an employee, whether it's a kid, you know, like that, starting with that question is really cool.

[266] And I also don't want to forget the part about rules.

[267] Oh, yeah.

[268] Rules are different.

[269] So rules are like there are different rules, unwritten rules and written rules in some cases for high earners.

[270] the extraordinary talents you know and if those rules bend or bleed too much into other people's um dignity it becomes problematic but they're like i'd be naive to say everyone's treated the same no everyone is treated equally different because we're all uniquely different and so that's the aspiration is like let me know you but the rule is and coach carroll has three rules i don't know if you're curious to know what of course the rules are yeah okay one always protect the team take care of each other right whether that's on the field or off the field whether that's in a club you're in a night club you see a guy getting hot you fucking go over there and diffuse that always protect the team you're part of this crew here like take care of each other it's bigger than always yes right so that's a really important part of why a majority of people don't do well after sport i was just gonna bring that up i watched a really compelling interview with brett farv when he was saying post football he didn't miss the adulation he didn't miss the paycheck he missed the camaraderie in that being a part of a unit.

[271] And he actually had to find a new unit to save his life.

[272] Yeah.

[273] And it's not easy.

[274] Especially ones that are so mission minded, so brotherhood based, whether it's a female, you know, or a male environment like or mixed.

[275] Like that brotherhood is lack of a more sensitive word, like togetherness is rare.

[276] So, you know, so always protect the team.

[277] Take care of each other.

[278] Number one.

[279] no whining, no complaining, no excuses.

[280] In other words, own your stuff.

[281] No whining, no complaining.

[282] No excuses.

[283] That's got to be a tough one, man. And we have fun with it.

[284] So as soon as someone like, hey, what's up?

[285] And they go, ah, you know, my dog, whatever, like the room will erupt.

[286] Like, oh, my rule two violator, look what we got here.

[287] Like, oh, you know, so there's a little public shaming.

[288] Yeah, like it's fun.

[289] And, you know, there's lots of little textures to that that are cool.

[290] By the way, you wouldn't know this about Monica and I, of course, but our New Year's resolutions this year were kind of of the same tree.

[291] In the same fabric.

[292] Mine was I was no longer going to complain about anything.

[293] Then Monica's was, she was going to stop saying I'm busy when people ask how she's doing.

[294] I love that.

[295] Yeah.

[296] For that same reason.

[297] Like, it sounds like a complaint or an excuse of some sort, even if it's not.

[298] It's like there's no reason to do that.

[299] The busyness for me, it seems like a moniker of success, like a false moniker of success.

[300] like it's not it's like are you busy well does that mean I'm ineffective with my time right right right that's true yeah so I love I love both those my yeah my thing was um I I find this brown lining as opposed to a silver line it's even the greatest things happening in my life because in some level I'm a little bit of ashamed about how disproportionate my luck has been in life and so I'm always putting a spin yeah I got this great thing but now I found out you got I take it and get it serviced fucking 40 miles away and you can't even drive like I'll I'll just I dump and then I realized yeah I'm doing this to kind of hopefully make them not hate me but it's coloring my experience because now I'm putting my energy and focus into something negative okay that's interesting so that's you becoming small to almost like yes hide some ways of your successes like hey I'm just like you yes my shame over having yes is it shame embarrassment if if I'm talking with a friend who I know makes $38 ,000 a year and is on a roof all day and is killing their body physically.

[301] And I don't want to go wear this shirt at a red carpet for X amount of money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[302] I feel like a fucking asshole.

[303] You know, I think rightly so.

[304] Like, I need to keep in check.

[305] Hey, you're talking to someone who's fucking killing themselves.

[306] I love that.

[307] So I think that's where it started where it's also a family thing.

[308] I noticed everyone in my family complains a lot.

[309] That's also part of the mix.

[310] Or I think that they feel and people in general who complain feel that the negative things are the things we have in common.

[311] So if you're relaying the thing that's negative, it's like that's how we can connect because we both have bad stuff, right?

[312] But it's like that's a horrible way to connect with someone.

[313] Yeah.

[314] Like you can't relate to the fact that I got this really cool car, but you can relate to the fact that it's a pain in the ass to go get X, Y, and Z done to this car, you know.

[315] But they could relate.

[316] They could relate to that feeling, maybe not getting that new car, but getting something good.

[317] And then they're like, oh, yeah, that's making that person happy.

[318] That makes me happy.

[319] So it's just, it's just misinformed in our brains.

[320] You know, you guys brought this up earlier that this desire, this deep need that we have to connect.

[321] And so this is the second time we're talking about today or in this conversation.

[322] So through relationships we become, nobody does this thing.

[323] alone right not even individual athletes individual actors businessmen and women like nobody does it alone there's a deep deep desire to be connected and we will do funny things to connect yes right and if you look at the neurobiology of it what we're really chasing in that essence is oxytocin uh -huh the love hormone yeah the cuddle the cuddle chemical you know that thing that happens after you know you make love or have a baby or you know have an exchange whether it's an intense exchange or not There's an oxytocin release.

[324] And so that's one of the reasons that technology is screwing us up.

[325] Now, technology is amazing.

[326] I'm not going to sit here and dump and be on that exact guys about technology.

[327] We're using it right now and it's whatever.

[328] Well, it's gray.

[329] It's neither great nor terrible.

[330] Yeah.

[331] There's some ups and some downs.

[332] Yeah, I would say that.

[333] Like there's some beautiful assets and there's some real challenges.

[334] But when we're texting back and forth or we're looking at pictures of other people, that we're getting dopamine and serotonin to other really powerful neurocom.

[335] chemicals, but we're not getting oxytocin.

[336] Right.

[337] So what happens if we reduce oxytocin, whether we're complaining with them or not, or, you know, misguided connection, right?

[338] Yeah.

[339] Or we're actually making love with a person or in a great conversation.

[340] Eye contact is taking place and we're stimulated by the conversation.

[341] We're getting that oxytocin.

[342] When we don't have it, we just basically have this thrust inside of us of adrenaline and feel good chemicals completely alone.

[343] That's one of the reasons we're seeing people reporting depression.

[344] anxiety related to technology yeah and it's it's specifically triggering right your your pleasure reward system of your brain dopamine serotonin yeah so so all that you know slot machine instagram everything quick fast shiny bright loud bells is basically this right is the strawberry on the tree uh evolutionarily but there's yeah there's it's it's it's so 2d it's it can't produce oxytocin What, what trees do strawberries come from?

[345] That's fine, I guess.

[346] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[347] An apple, how about that?

[348] A shiny apple.

[349] Shiny apple, yeah.

[350] I grew up on a farm, remember.

[351] I had some years in that.

[352] What state was that?

[353] It was Virginia.

[354] Fourth grade, I came in California.

[355] Well, we're going to get into that, but first, let's go to rule number three.

[356] So number two is no complaining.

[357] And then so there's, there's some good -hearted group shaming when people break that rule, it sounds like.

[358] Yeah, it's fun.

[359] Yeah.

[360] Right?

[361] So it's not this, oh, they.

[362] you broke rule number it's not like that right you know it's more playful and fun and then that ends up creating and shaping part of the culture of having fun like like coach carroll loves to have fun and he loves to figure out how to bring the best collectively out of each other and then the culture ends up being celebrating i'll get to the third rule but it ends up celebrating like no no i feel like i'm like people are invested my teammates and my coaches and like people are invested in me flourishing and like and they're getting it too like this feels really good yeah being uh dependable and accountable to other humans weirdly feels good it's counterintuitive a little bit right because it sounds like it's in obligation or homework or being of service which is going to prevent you from doing something you might want to do selfishly but the the result is very positive right and that's where rule number three comes in which is be early be early Oh, I like that instead of be on time.

[363] Yeah, not be on time.

[364] Be early.

[365] In other words, organize your life in such a way that you demonstrate that you have regard for the other people that are trying to do something difficult and hard and beautiful and wonderful.

[366] You guys are sighing right now.

[367] Well, we see eye to eye on this.

[368] We're very judgmental of people who are late.

[369] We have a really hard time with people who are late.

[370] It's like really triggers something.

[371] It feels like really disrespectful.

[372] Yes.

[373] That they have valued their time more than everyone else's.

[374] around.

[375] And the way that we look at it is that we say they're disorganized.

[376] Their priorities aren't quite in line.

[377] And so we go that way with it.

[378] Like, get your stuff together.

[379] Right.

[380] This is, attribution error syndrome.

[381] So I just assigned, I assigned a character assessment, right?

[382] Which is you think your shit doesn't stink and you're more valuable than other people.

[383] That's a character assessment.

[384] And yours was circumstantial.

[385] So it's the mechanics of their day.

[386] They're not good planners, which which is the much better way to see the world.

[387] Well, it takes out like that personal attack.

[388] Yes.

[389] I'm so glad that just happened because that's a really hard example to give a concrete thing of.

[390] And that's it in a nutshell.

[391] But you've learned it through.

[392] Did you do 12 steps?

[393] Yeah, yeah.

[394] So you've learned that.

[395] You know, like it's not the person.

[396] It's the behavior.

[397] Right.

[398] And so that's like, and listen, shame and guilt are two of the culprits for addiction.

[399] Right.

[400] That keeps people stuck.

[401] Yeah.

[402] And so one way to help people.

[403] through that too is to say listen it's not you you know like your behaviors are not okay and i'm not going to be around you if you have these behaviors yeah but it's not you at your behaviors well there's a line in the big book that's like uh we got sick of people never judging us by our intentions only our behaviors it's like your intentions aren't crazy relevant at this point if you've shown up pick up your kid yeah last three days in a row stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare We've all been there.

[404] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[405] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[406] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[407] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[408] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

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[412] What's up guys?

[413] This is your girl Kiki and my podcast.

[414] is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[415] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[416] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[417] And I don't mean just friends.

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[420] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[421] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[422] Okay, sorry, back to your.

[423] No, that's it.

[424] It's like, so that's a third rule, which is like, get your priorities in line.

[425] And you know why, like, be early as opposed to be on time?

[426] But time is hard to bullseye.

[427] It's harder to bullseye.

[428] Exactly.

[429] Isn't that a good insight?

[430] Yeah.

[431] Like it just mechanically, it's kind of a bad goal to have because it's so specific.

[432] And because I generally move through life thinking beyond time, I do it every morning I would drop my daughter off at school and I fucking suck at it.

[433] In fact, this morning I saw another parent and I'm like, I'm not doing this well.

[434] Like, we are rushing every single day.

[435] We pass on anxiety to our children.

[436] in lots of ways.

[437] Yeah, I got to do it for her.

[438] But, yeah, as opposed to me thinking I must walk through that gate before 8 .30, and I just do like, 825.

[439] Yeah, get there early.

[440] So I'm just getting, everything's going to get moved back a lot.

[441] Isn't that morning?

[442] I have a 10 -year -old.

[443] Isn't that morning thing a challenge?

[444] Oh, it is.

[445] Because I'm like, I'm trying to take care of me a little bit too.

[446] I got to dump before I leave the house.

[447] That's a non -starter.

[448] I don't care.

[449] I would miss a meeting with the president.

[450] I got to get that done.

[451] You're like trying to manage them getting ready, but I got to go do my own thing for a few minutes.

[452] You know what's worked for us is that we switch on music in the morning.

[453] So, you know, just so my son has a playlist.

[454] Okay.

[455] And so we fire up his playlist.

[456] You know, it's his feel good stuff.

[457] Uh -huh.

[458] And we get music rolling in the house.

[459] You know, every room, you get it rolling.

[460] Yeah.

[461] It changes the nature of the seriousness of whatever in the morning.

[462] Yeah.

[463] I'd say one in five mornings I do that.

[464] Would you say you come over and there's music playing?

[465] Yeah.

[466] Maybe less.

[467] I do think, though, for his kids, that just makes them dance and get distracted.

[468] If I come in and there's music, I'm off, I'm like, okay, we got to do something.

[469] But totally true.

[470] But also, generally there's no fighting happening when you come into that environment.

[471] And so the fighting, to me, is just as distracting.

[472] Like, they can't brush their teeth when they're fighting.

[473] They can't brush, they can't get ready when they're fighting.

[474] And there's a whole bunch of fighting if they're not in Happy Vale.

[475] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[476] They're four and six.

[477] So it's, you know, and they share a room and it's a lot.

[478] But there was something you were going to say before we got back into rules.

[479] Is there any way we remember it?

[480] I don't.

[481] Bands.

[482] I don't think we ever got to it.

[483] Like the bands of coaching?

[484] Amateur coaching.

[485] Yeah, maybe that.

[486] Professional coaching.

[487] Well, yeah, let's talk about that.

[488] Yeah.

[489] So like amateur coaches, there's no science about what I'm saying.

[490] This is like, this is observation.

[491] I'm not able to reference anything from here.

[492] Yeah.

[493] And I say that because I try to squarely be in.

[494] in the anchors of science with everything I do and appreciating that innovation has to happen in the theater in the amphitheater of whatever innovation has to happen but when it's ground in good science like we can go somewhere so amateur coaching they say a lot and they're not really accurate and it's more about them than it is you know the other person that's like an amateur coach maybe they want to do well for other people but they're it's just not together they're not skilled and whatever okay then are they often just aping or parodying something that some ideal they they have absorbed through media and movies and hoosier or whatever the fuck it was like that they're they've been misled perhaps not skilled yeah you know and like not really informed and maybe it worked for them but low insight and understanding of probably not intentional as much as they would want to be yeah there go and then we've got like performance coaching so they're you know they got their stuff together they say a little bit too much but they tend to be accurate right they're pretty accurate with what they say like they've been around they've got good frames of reference they understand people a little bit better they understand the craft a bit better so they're good they're going to get some good results with people and it's not all about them right right so there's a relationship but it usually is about performance yeah and it's a you know snapped into outcomes and now listen we all need outcomes there's an invisible handshake that we all make with each other all the time that if you don't perform, we're not going to hang out.

[495] Right.

[496] Unless it's family.

[497] That's different.

[498] Yeah, you'll let them get away with murder.

[499] Yeah, it's amazing.

[500] Literally sometimes.

[501] Sure, sure.

[502] That's right.

[503] What do you know?

[504] Not for me, but we always debate this and I'm always like I would absolutely shelter a fugitive family member.

[505] You would?

[506] Absolutely.

[507] Yeah.

[508] You would know.

[509] I probably would.

[510] My wife claimed she would turn me in, she'd turn her mother in, she'd turn our children in.

[511] She's a rule follower.

[512] For the sake of other people.

[513] For the safety of others.

[514] This person could then keep harming people if we don't do that.

[515] I'm like, I'll go to an island.

[516] That's his.

[517] I'll take her.

[518] I'll take the kid.

[519] We'll go, she's a murderer.

[520] Her and I will go spend the rest of our life on an island.

[521] We'll make sure it doesn't happen.

[522] It's a cool argument.

[523] Yeah, it is.

[524] Yeah, it's good.

[525] There's like institutional law versus like nature of humans and, you know, Yeah, and the dignity and right of others, yeah.

[526] Okay, good.

[527] So then there's elite coaches, and those coaches, like I said earlier, they ask a lot more questions.

[528] Okay.

[529] They have such a regard, they have such a command, they've seen so many things.

[530] They really have a deep understanding.

[531] And the real deep information comes from the person that's doing it.

[532] Now, let me just ask you really quickly about those coaches.

[533] I have to imagine that an element in this is, again, similar to.

[534] one of the tenets of AA is find somebody that has what you want and ask them how they got it and listen right so I see this all the time because again I'm not super into football but I love hard knocks I love the HBO show about the preseason and I love seeing the dynamics that exist and the approaches and all these different things I often think well that guy that coach he has nothing I want he's fucking morbidly unhealthy he doesn't have a relationship with his wife he's angry a lot i see i just on some integrity level if i'm on that field i'm like i sorry bud you're not walking the walk you're not somebody that has what i want you don't have any kind of contentment you don't have peace of mind other aspects of your life they're all in shambles so is that at all part of it people do they have to walk the walk to get that respect well you know it's a it depends on the culture that they're allowed to be in you know if they are if it's an outcome -based culture and they know how to at all cost help somebody win, then they'll probably be tolerated, barely respected, but not loved, not appreciated, not regarded.

[535] And it depends on the culture.

[536] And I love that you're pointing that out.

[537] Like, when I go to, let's say, a financial advisor, like, I want them to be really switched on.

[538] I hope they make 10x when I make.

[539] Yes.

[540] You know, if I'm going to a fitness coach, like have your stuff together.

[541] Like, you know, live it, understand it, apply it.

[542] I agree.

[543] Yeah.

[544] This is one of the reasons.

[545] I hope I'm not going to offend you to, but I'm going to say it anyways, because it's a strong belief system that I have here is that, like, life coaching scares me. Oh, I have a big aversion to it personally.

[546] So we're friends.

[547] Now, granted, there are probably hundreds of really great life coaches that would change people's lives.

[548] But yes, I am just in general a little bit cynical or suspicious of it.

[549] Yeah.

[550] You had better be like just a thriving human being on all I. switched on on all levels like on it so anyways now that we're bashing entire industry but yeah so like when i look at um again let's we'll move it out of sports in some way a little bit after this but when i looked at uh uh phil jackson here's a guy who's undeniably got something right he did it in chicago and then he did it here in l .A and this kind of harmony that he can instill the kind of introspection, all these different things that he seems to imbued on to players.

[551] He also, when I just look at him, I'm like, oh, that guy's walking the walk.

[552] He is somehow a Buddhist.

[553] He is somehow managing his emotions, and he's thinking, he's using frontal lobe thinking at all time.

[554] He has capacity over the rest of his brain.

[555] Like, that guy's clearly special.

[556] And if I was working for him, I'd be like, yes, I will follow you.

[557] I can see that you have a secret.

[558] You're picking up on something that is really deep.

[559] which is alignment and consistency.

[560] So let me back out of that for a minute, is that from clarity, we then begin to have the ability to have conviction in life.

[561] But we need a lot in between.

[562] We need some real skills to have consistency over time.

[563] So clarity to conviction as just a first model.

[564] What you're picking up on is somebody who is consistent across conditions.

[565] And so when it's chill, they are themselves and they can be tightly wound or they could be really relaxed, whatever and then in high stakes or rugged or demanding environments they're the same.

[566] So what allows that to happen is that they have done the internal deep work and nobody can do this work for another human but they've done the work to know the principles to guide their thoughts their words and their actions and when you have alignment between your thoughts, your words and your actions across environment, those are powerful human beings.

[567] Those are people that were attracted to because they've done the real work.

[568] They stand for something, their thoughts, their words, and their actions line up.

[569] That's Mandela.

[570] That was Buddha.

[571] That was Mother Teresa.

[572] You know, that was Helen Keller.

[573] That was fill in the blank, fill in the blank.

[574] Those people are extraordinary.

[575] Nobody can do that work for them.

[576] Well, by the way, there's also another A thing that mirrors this, which is watch your thoughts, they become your words, watch your words, they become your actions, watch your actions, they become your character.

[577] Exactly right.

[578] Yeah, so it's really a very similar concept.

[579] Now, so let's take another world of sports in that.

[580] I'm very sympathetic to folks that don't feel that they have a calling, right, or they don't, they're not driven by some North Star just from birth or, you know, I'm very sympathetic to that.

[581] I think for me, the scariest feeling in life would be not have a desire to go anywhere in particular.

[582] Dax, that is, unfortunately, the healthy majority, which is really, the word you describe that, the adjective you have is right on.

[583] Like, there is hopefully deep compassion for people that are struggling to know purpose and meaning.

[584] Purpose, there we go.

[585] Yeah, it's really hard.

[586] It's a hard thing to do.

[587] Nobody can do it for another person.

[588] We can be in communities that help think.

[589] and nudge and suggest for other people but we have to do that deep alone work by ourselves with ourselves and there's three ways to do that that I'm familiar with good thank you because I can imagine that feels very daunting to try to figure out your purpose isn't it though I mean just talking about it's so abstract it's so abstract you know but that okay so let's do let's do that for a minute like those what are those three mechanisms then we can kind of snap a layer deeper on it is that being around and in conversation with why people.

[590] That helps.

[591] Surrounding yourself.

[592] With wisdom.

[593] That's what we're trying to do here.

[594] That's the whole point of this.

[595] Yeah, that's the whole point of experts on experts in particular is like, yeah, that's really cool.

[596] Let's hear from some people who've dedicated actual time to any one of these things.

[597] And then the second is listen.

[598] This is where mindfulness as a practice pays, you know, dividends is to really listen to yourself.

[599] And so the world is so full and noise.

[600] that getting to the signal is hard.

[601] So signal to noise ratio is an engineering term.

[602] Okay.

[603] It's also a psychological term.

[604] So getting to the signal is hard.

[605] And what we're talking about with purpose and meaning is part of the signal.

[606] So where do we reveal or get in touch with the signal in the present moment?

[607] Mindfulness, which is the act of listening, paying attention without judgment on purpose, is about listening to like what is really happening in the thought stream, the emotional stream, the environment.

[608] like what is happening now so that's the second and then the third is writing well give me a concrete example that before we move on you know when you are paying attention like you're listening to yourself and all the sudden it's like ooh that that's like oh my god that's that's right like that's true like that's a theme in my life or that feels right to me that that type of aha moment those types of revelations, those internal insights, as they're often called, those are difficult to find because we're so cluttered with noise, what we should do, what we shouldn't do, what other people are doing, you know, the pace and speed of modern day life, there's lots of noise.

[609] Well, right, that's what essentialism gets into a little bit, is nobody has budgeted time in their life to actually evaluate anything, right?

[610] You're just going from task to task, test to test, and you're never stepping back to get a global perspective of your life or even just do some inventory.

[611] This is where athletics is interesting and we can find something many of us can benefit from the feedback loops that athletes have.

[612] So for an athlete to get better, they're in environments that provide real time and hopefully accurate feedback loops.

[613] Like how do the rest of us get those feedback loops about the email that we sent or the conversation that we had or this conversation?

[614] Like, did I just choose the right word or the right direction that we're taking it?

[615] I don't know.

[616] You know, so what are the feedback loops?

[617] And so in athletics, world -class athletics, there's incredibly sophisticated feedback loops.

[618] There's somebody watching you.

[619] Right, you've got a timer.

[620] That's right.

[621] And there's a coach and quote -unquote expert that's helping you make adjustments.

[622] They're asking you questions.

[623] Your body is giving you feedback, whether you're on balance or off -balance, so to speak.

[624] There's film, there's tape.

[625] There's incredible feedback loops that are taking place.

[626] But for most of us, unfortunately, we don't have them.

[627] Now, you can do that with thinking.

[628] So you've been practicing.

[629] I saw somewhere, TM.

[630] Oh, yeah.

[631] Well, the actions are to do a set of activities to become more aware.

[632] That's the big word, more aware of your thoughts and emotions.

[633] And what does that technically look like or concretely look like?

[634] Most practices begin with breathing.

[635] And the reason we focus on a breathing is there's a couple of reasons.

[636] One, it's always available.

[637] Yeah, sure.

[638] As long as we're alive physically, it's available.

[639] So there's two types of meditation.

[640] There's single point and there's contemplative.

[641] Okay.

[642] So single point is focusing on the one thing for an extended period of time.

[643] Could be a flickering candle.

[644] It could be a sound or a mantra, which is, you know, TM -based.

[645] Or your inhale and your exhale.

[646] Yeah.

[647] Like, that's the one thing.

[648] And contemplative, just for clarity, is like, just, go with it.

[649] Just watch.

[650] Without judgment and critique, just watch what your thoughts and emotions do.

[651] And I might misunderstand my own TM training, but to me it seems like oddly a combination of both things.

[652] Because you have the mantra, which is a singular focus thing, yet you're given permission to let your mind wander as much as you'd like.

[653] And as you remember to bringing yourself back to the mantra.

[654] So it's kind of like weaving in and out of both of those.

[655] That's exactly right.

[656] Okay.

[657] And it could be separate.

[658] You could set out.

[659] to do like just some exploratory contemplative, you know, following.

[660] Yeah.

[661] If you won't see where you go.

[662] And or you could do something more mechanical, which is just follow the one thing.

[663] Right.

[664] Yeah.

[665] And then when your mind wanders, which is will, just gently bring it back.

[666] Yes.

[667] You know, without this panic of I'm failing at this.

[668] That's like the big thing.

[669] It's just being given permission to fail for me was why I could do TM.

[670] It's like, you're not going to be perfect.

[671] You're going to start thinking about taxes or due in a week.

[672] That's okay.

[673] Think that out.

[674] On breath, one and a half.

[675] Yeah, think that out for a minute.

[676] Yeah, when you feel like you can maybe get that mantra back, go ahead and start doing it again.

[677] You know, and I'm like, okay, good.

[678] I don't have to be perfect at this.

[679] Well, yeah.

[680] And, you know, here's something that I think is really a beautiful thought around it, is that this is really awareness training, mixed with some refocus training, mixed with some non -judgmental training, like those three things.

[681] So the moment in which you recognize that you're off the one thing, that you're off the one thing.

[682] that's the moment to celebrate like look i've got i just did it i'm completely aware that i'm off from the thing i wanted to do so now what i want to do yeah and so you're always we're always in control like we can do whatever we want with ourselves right pretty much so in that moment you can say you know what i want to just bring it back to the thing or you know what no i want to follow i don't want to try to solve i just want to follow where this thought stream is going yes when i've had my my most like unbelievable TM sessions it's the first 10 minutes are going to Texas coming back to the monitor going to Texas going back to the next five like 10 through 15 I'm like I'm starting to settle into my body in a way that I may be lost feeling of my arms which is kind of cool and I'm becoming aware of that maybe I can't feel where my leg are they cross or they not cross so I can't even remember and then in a great thing there's five minutes of pretty much I don't even know how to explain it, but I come out of it with an entire act of a screenplay written.

[683] You know, something I've been wrestling with forever, and I did not try to think of it.

[684] Something, some, you know, the hamster on the wheeling side was doing it, and I don't know how, and that, to me, to experience that magic, or it's like, oh, my God, I know exactly what's supposed to happen.

[685] I didn't create it.

[686] Isn't that cool?

[687] Consciously, I didn't create it.

[688] Yeah, the science.

[689] So, mindfulness is a practice.

[690] It's been around 2 ,600 plus years, you know, like best, best idea there.

[691] And the science is ridiculous.

[692] Like the science that's coming online right now, there's a, you know, in 1980, there was only a handful of research articles on mindfulness, just a couple for the year.

[693] In 2008, there was about 100 and something.

[694] So we got this flat line, you know, and then 2008 it bumped up a little bit.

[695] In 2018, it's over a thousand.

[696] So it's this really clear hockey stick arc, you know, growth, exponential almost, if you will, about like what is actually happening from a scientific lens from a mindfulness or meditation perspective.

[697] And, you know, for one, people that practice mindfulness have an increased frequency in flow state.

[698] The most optimal state of human can be in.

[699] I mean, that's kind of cool.

[700] Yeah.

[701] Yeah, it's just so it's crazy good for your body in many, many ways, right?

[702] lowers your cortisol rates, your adrenaline, all these kind of things.

[703] Increases parenting behavior.

[704] Now, you were, you brought up that, not here today, but I heard elsewhere, that nobody has trained their mind, right?

[705] You do seminars, you ask folks who has some formal training for their mind.

[706] I don't even know what that would mean.

[707] No, I wouldn't say nobody.

[708] Very few.

[709] Very few.

[710] You know, to be safe here.

[711] Like, yeah, keep going, please.

[712] Well, I was just going to say, even when you said it, I was thinking, boy, if I were in that audience and he asked me, do I have any formal training for my thinking, I'm not sure that I'd know how to answer that.

[713] Some ways I think I have through either AA or the psychology I read or whatever it is, you know, or TM maybe, I don't know.

[714] But then I was like, but I don't know.

[715] So what does that mean and how do people get formal training for their thinking?

[716] And break down mind and brain too while you're at it.

[717] Yeah.

[718] So you would be able to answer that question relatively easy if I were to ask, have you done any formal training of your body?

[719] you'd say yeah i've had a coach right right i've gone to a strength and fitness expert right have you done any formal training for your craft yeah i've gone to this studio i've gone to this you know acting guru i've done right and you would say yes to both those right right and then when it gets to like have you formally trained your mind part of that is a little bit of a setup because where do you go get it right but there's only three things that we can train craft body in mind so what we learn from world class athletes and performers is they're not leaving that third leg of the stool up to chance you know what most people are looking for is alignment i'll go back to that word again like when there's a complete embodiment and there's a believability like there's a person whether it's in your craft and art or something else leadership in business or uh intimacy in a relationship like stand for something get those words and emotions and body postures line up so that it's like real and i can't i don't know i've never stepped one day in a shoe of you know for an actor and comedian like i don't really know but i do know that what people crave and they recognize it when they see it is that authenticity that alignment where it's like what is that yes that's it because the thing we are most drawn to is confidence because it's the thing we most desire and if you can see someone fearless living their authentic self it's the most attractive thing in the world even if it's it it's rad yeah even if it's objectively something you would say I don't like when people do X Y or Z when you can see that it's actually them they've just opened up their fucking chest and let you look at it it has a crazy power right and confidence is a tradable skill how does someone become this is something I wrestle with all the time like I imagine my kids who are inevitably going to enter junior high in high school and there's to be this period where it's like i'm going to be trying to explain to them you got to fake it till you make it and it'll you're you're thinking and belief will catch up with your actions at some point like but that's a very hard concept isn't it and that might not even be the healthy explanation of what confidence is but no i how do you work on confidence okay i'm going to totally answer it and then oh great yeah and i also want to say that how do i do this respectfully like You're fucked?

[720] You can just say you're fucked.

[721] Like, I would say, like, maybe never say that phrase again.

[722] Like, fake it to you make it, you know, like, it's really bad.

[723] Is it?

[724] Fake it, you do you make it?

[725] Yeah.

[726] Tell me why.

[727] Okay, one, the research on it doesn't hold up.

[728] Okay.

[729] Okay, so let's just start with the science.

[730] It's not good science.

[731] Right.

[732] It doesn't work.

[733] Power poses, bad science.

[734] Okay.

[735] You probably read that somewhere.

[736] No, so there are power poses.

[737] Yeah, it's bad.

[738] It's really bad.

[739] So people can, like, mimic confident stances.

[740] It doesn't work.

[741] Yeah, it doesn't work.

[742] Or at least the research won't hold it up yet.

[743] Okay.

[744] And I don't believe it will.

[745] So the idea to fake anything feels really wrong, right?

[746] To this other thing we're talking about, which is deep authenticity, purpose and meaning.

[747] And, you know, like the idea, hey, fake it.

[748] And that's, to me, that's analogous to, hey, get over on people.

[749] They're going to find out.

[750] And by the way, when I'm doing that, I don't feel full.

[751] I don't feel right.

[752] I'm lying to myself and lying to you.

[753] that i got it together but how about this you're 14 you're in at the mall and you're in the food court and you see an attractive uh person uh you're terrified to go talk to them but you have got to act like you are not terrified that's the fake until you make it like i don't know that you'll ever harness your adrenaline but you must present at least some version that's not freaking the fuck out that's what i mean by fake it till you make it so i would go upstream just one level.

[754] I go upstream and I'd say, okay, where does confidence come from?

[755] And it comes from only one place.

[756] What you say to yourself, that's it.

[757] And what you say to yourself, when it's credible, build something that is sustainable.

[758] Okay, so confidence is this internal thing that we do to say, I think I can do that.

[759] I think I could go ask.

[760] I think, you know what, I could.

[761] You know what?

[762] I can do that.

[763] So confidence comes from what you say yourself and it's got to be grounded in something that's real incredible and believable so confidence again is like i think i can go do that right like that's kind of a kind of a confidence state and then but if you're saying things to yourself like man i don't know i don't know what she's going to say i don't know what my boys are going to think about it i don't i don't know how this is going to go well that's actually like questioning they're not statements they're questions about the outcome confidence isn't coming from there.

[764] Okay.

[765] So confidence comes from the mechanical thing like, you know what?

[766] I'm a good human.

[767] I think I'm actually, you know, really, no, I'm really attracted to that human over there.

[768] And what's the worst that could happen?

[769] Now I'm asking a question.

[770] Well, the worst that could happen is A, B, and C. I can live with that.

[771] You know what?

[772] I can do this.

[773] Uh -huh.

[774] So there's a credible engagement that takes place.

[775] Yeah, a true evaluation.

[776] Yeah, so that's where confidence comes from.

[777] Uh -huh.

[778] If the person can't answer the question, like, can I live with the failure of it?

[779] Probably shouldn't do it.

[780] Uh -huh.

[781] Now, so now we've got to go upstream again.

[782] Mm -hmm.

[783] The most dynamic humans are ones that they don't need.

[784] This is going to get complicated, but I think it's worth it.

[785] Okay.

[786] If you say approval, I'm going to.

[787] No. Yeah.

[788] No. So trust.

[789] I was going to go to trust.

[790] Okay.

[791] So trust of self and trust of others.

[792] When I say the word trust, most people think about trust of others.

[793] Like, do I trust others?

[794] Right.

[795] Okay.

[796] Sure.

[797] And trust of self is way more powerful.

[798] The idea that I can trust myself to figure out any condition in life is a very powerful place to be in life.

[799] Like what, even the worst thing that I could imagine taking place, like, can you sense that you could figure it out?

[800] And when you do, then that, that's where you want to start somebody, a 12 -year -old, like to learn how to trust themselves.

[801] rather than trusting others, trust themselves, and then layer confidence on top of it.

[802] So how do you build trust of self?

[803] Do difficult things.

[804] Get right to the edge of capacity where you're not very good at it and then come back to your tribe, to your family, and talk about it.

[805] And then do it again.

[806] And then get right to the edge, make mistakes, struggle, heart rates up, come back to the tribe, talk about it.

[807] And then before you know it, it's like this, this is almost like a balloon.

[808] The balloon starts kind of small with lots of tension and as you breathe new experiences, the capacity building uncomfortable as things.

[809] The balloon gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

[810] And then you get to play a little bit more.

[811] It's not so refining.

[812] Well, I think that's the, this does get talked about it.

[813] Certainly on here it does a lot.

[814] But yeah, this is the fatal outcome of helicopter parenting.

[815] You're denying your child the confidence building.

[816] Like what I say is, telling your kid they're great is useless allowing your kid to prove to themselves they're great is everything i love you can't just say you're great you could be president fuck that you know anything about polly sigh are you are you orator do you take debate do you no you can't no one can be fucking president unless you got a pretty specific skill set now i'd love to provide you with that opportunity to go discover that skill set or work on it but me telling you you can do that is a fucking lie that's right That's really good.

[817] And the science backs that up as well.

[818] Like when you're going to coach kids or talk to kids or parent them, we want to align our conversations up with things that they're actually in control of.

[819] So they're not in control of becoming a president or not.

[820] Right.

[821] But they are in control of things like effort and attitude and attention to detail and, you know, getting up after a mistake, like the way they adjust to adversity.

[822] You know, so when we talk about those things with our young people, more often than outcomes, like getting the job versus like learning from mistakes or whatever.

[823] Then the kid goes, oh, you know, like I can do that.

[824] I can figure out things that are in my control.

[825] And then back to that big word like agency, where people become agents.

[826] They are not victims of the circumstances, but they actually put themselves in positions of control.

[827] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[828] If you dare.

[829] being number one being great all these things do you ever step back and take a global ask the global question is it even a good pursuit because baked into it is comparison there's no way to be elite or number one or anything without comparison which i personally feel like is a brain cancer so is the right thing for us to do to try to be number one try to be the best or is the right thing for us to do find the thing we love process on and just fucking go bonkers on it and then you may end up somewhere you can let other people tell you whether or not you were the greatest of all time but is it is it is it healthy to pursue elite anything or number one anything that's my kind of global question this is your complete industry so i'm asking a very dangerous question potentially but yeah um are you trying to be the best or your best?

[830] Okay.

[831] That's the question.

[832] That's a good start.

[833] Yeah, right?

[834] And I struggle with black and white thinking.

[835] I struggle with reductionism.

[836] I struggle with binary anything.

[837] Yeah, this idea that it is just one way with humans because we are complicated.

[838] It's nuanced.

[839] It's wonderful.

[840] You know, like it is hard.

[841] You know, like life is hard.

[842] Right.

[843] It's not easy.

[844] Even when you have great command of your inner life and your inner world, it's still challenging.

[845] Yes.

[846] Okay.

[847] Now.

[848] You'll only have better tools to deal with the inevitable problem.

[849] The problem's never going to be taken off the table.

[850] But you could change that and say instead a problem, you could say opportunity or challenge.

[851] And it not be soft.

[852] Like I'm not suggesting like positive psychology and like is the answer to it.

[853] I'm just saying in that frame like not all things are problems.

[854] Some things are like opportunities.

[855] Oh yeah, yeah.

[856] I'll tell you a thing on the podcast that I have is that I just got to, I don't know if this happened to you.

[857] I think you guys have your own pictures, but we grabbed a picture for a blog site of the person we interviewed.

[858] And I had a photographer come and say, okay, that's going to cost you 20 grand.

[859] Sure.

[860] So then, so is this a problem?

[861] We're going to now turn it into an opportunity.

[862] We're going to take some fun selfies with people.

[863] Right.

[864] You know, right.

[865] We're going to do something totally different.

[866] But anyways, okay, so the best or your best.

[867] Mm -hmm.

[868] That's a good distinction.

[869] What I've found is that the comparison model that you're talking about, brain cancer is like, I wouldn't have used those terms, but the idea that it is, crazy making yes so it is part of um a deep question for people like what are you really trying to do if you are really trying to be the best there's going to be some consequences some traps there's going to be some stuff you got to wrestle with but don't say you're trying to be your best when you're really trying to be the best it's like get honest right right get honest with yourself and i would i what what i've learned is that people are trying to be their best and they're doing it relentlessly so and they love the process and they really want to grow at a fast clip to unlock and discover and explore the nuances that they're trying to better understand that's sustainable and it's not confusing when you get the trophy or the recognition of the reward right and so because you're you're you're playing something that is deeper now if you want to be the best there's there's challenges there's also challenges if you're trying to be your best you can get caught in this world of naivete you don't know what other people are doing and like what what world standards are yeah can i give you one example um i i'm nervous to bring this up because i actually like him uh and i would love to have him on but i'm going to say it there was a a documentary on showtime about Kobe Bryant did you see it by chance i haven't but okay so many people have talked about it okay he's a what he's done is pretty extraordinary right so i watched it one of my best friends, Andrew Panay, watched it.

[870] We had lunch.

[871] And he's like, oh, God, you see a documentary?

[872] I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's all.

[873] I mean, that's how you, man, that's how you accomplish your goals.

[874] And that's how you, that's how you get into action.

[875] That's how you, you got to have singular focus, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[876] And I'm like, it's interesting.

[877] That was your takeaway.

[878] My takeaway was this guy, by my assessment, ruined his life for this.

[879] You interview his teammates.

[880] They say terrible things about him.

[881] You interview people about Shaquille O 'Neal.

[882] I don't think that guy ever played to his potential but everyone loved him he had a great time his life has been fantastic and i think oh wow everyone's so fucking caught up in that blue ribbon that you would actually choose an unhappy life without tons of friends without people loving you and liking you and enjoying being around you for this fucking thing to say i was number one so what on your deathbed you were going to die peacefully knowing that you were number to me i saw that documentary is like the biggest cautionary tale I've ever seen it made me go hold on be careful what what's the cost to be in number one because I don't think it's worth it dax if you knew what I knew about the pursuit of being world leading you wouldn't you wouldn't be pushing your kids I'm not saying you are but if you knew what I knew like the dark side of that that venture is costly and so I'm right there with you saying you know like that being said is that there's something incredibly stimulating about unlocking and exploring potential yeah right and you know for a concrete example it's like if you're the only person that has summited bill in the blank let's just say Everest sure in your community you're the only person's ever done it it's really hard to relate to people uh -huh they they the smells the sounds the things that you experienced getting there at the top coming down when not one other person in your world your small world or larger circle of influence like has experienced it it's really there's a loneliness to this this is this is the astronaut syndrome a lot of astronauts suffer from this different yeah it's not right to be outside of our bubble and view it and it's so unrelatable now to everyone else so there's the concept that we've been playing with that and this is something that has been ascribed or we've bought for many generations certainly in the Western world is that we need to do the extraordinary to be extraordinary.

[883] We need to do amazing things to be amazing, right?

[884] So I'm watching that flip right on its head and the fact that you are bringing it up in this conversation is really I love it because what I'm watching happening right now and I'm talking about like the tip of the arrow, the 0 .5 percenters is that they flip that model.

[885] They're saying, no, no, no, I need to be more to do more.

[886] I need to be me. I need to be grounded.

[887] I need to be be present, be authentic, be creative.

[888] And from that place, let the doing flow.

[889] So this I need, I need to do more to be more, broken.

[890] Do you know much about Brody Miller?

[891] I don't know a bunch, but I have a - The skier.

[892] Yes, the skier.

[893] And I have a little bit of understanding of who he is for maybe a 60 -minute piece they did on him.

[894] And it appears to, me and I could be wrong that that guy actually wants to ski his best and he is in a bubble and sometimes he wins and sometimes he loses he's after a perfect run he's not concerned if someone has a more perfect run or less and he's done some pretty eccentric things on the tour as a result of this but I look at it and I go oh man now that's who if my kids were into sports I'd want them to model themselves after it's like he's on his own ride and he's he's in pursuit of the perfect run whatever that means to him and it doesn't require that other people he fall into some hierarchy for that to happen he could have the perfect run and lose the race and be delighted and i think holy shit if that if if you could be motivated with that kind of criteria that excites me there was a run i think was the last olympic games where and there's legendary stories about him in you know how he operates so but he gets down to the bottom of the run.

[895] These are the games.

[896] And he has, he puts it on the edge as he's in life and on skis.

[897] And he gets down to the bottom.

[898] The famous horns are buzzing from the crowd.

[899] You know, people are cheering.

[900] There's all that kind of stuff that's happening at the, at the end as he slides in.

[901] And you see him gather himself.

[902] And it's as if he's running the race that he just ran in his mind again.

[903] And he's nodding and he's nodding and he's nodding.

[904] And it's like, yep, did it.

[905] I did it.

[906] And then you see him look up.

[907] That's so cool.

[908] And he looks up at his time and the kind of scoreboard, the leaderboard.

[909] And he's like, yep, there it is again.

[910] Like, so it was, to your point, it was a self -reference first.

[911] Did I live true?

[912] Did I execute the game plan?

[913] Well, did I live authentically true?

[914] Or did I hold back?

[915] And did I play it safe and small?

[916] Or did I go over -aggressive because I was scared or I didn't think I had what it took?

[917] Like, did I run my true race?

[918] Did I run my true life it's an app metaphor for life what i just described now i don't know bode and i don't know what happened in that moment but me watching and knowing stories of him from friends of friends and friends like amazing moment and so what a that's how i want to live my life too yeah it's very aspirational you know i race cars and the thing i enjoy about it is uh for many folks out there they're trying to win the race i am trying to do let's say at fonta fontauntan It's a 23 -turn track.

[919] It is nearly impossible to go through all 23 turns perfectly, as you're supposed to do, if a computer was driving the car.

[920] So for me, the whole time, if it's an hour and 30 minutes in the car, I'm just like, fuck, turn 13, turn 19.

[921] While I'm driving, I got to come.

[922] I got to break a little bit later and I got to turn in just a bit earlier.

[923] Like, whatever it is.

[924] I'm only, the whole experience for me is internal.

[925] I'm just trying to get all 23 turns lined up perfectly, which, I'm just.

[926] almost can't be done or a couple of laps out of 70 I do it you know and then that has accidentally put me on the podium a few times but it again and I started doing that later in life where I think it could be like more of an individual pursuit of my own personal perfection and I've just found that really pleasurable versus the times I've tried to go win things oh yeah those experiences this is flow state back to the science of flow you know musicians call it being in the pocket athletes call it being in the zone, right?

[927] There's lots of phrases that have tried to articulate that complete absorption in the present moment.

[928] And when those moments happen, they are not only mystical, like the mystics talk about it too, but there's a full animation of mind and body and action.

[929] And that animation and harmony of those three is not only incredibly elusive, but it's incredibly freeing when it takes place.

[930] And that goes back to that signal to noise ratio.

[931] Like the noise and those environments are like what are they doing what are their times what are they thinking of me what's happening with you know the engineering of why i'm slow on this or breaking systems here and there as opposed to the signal which is me right here feeling the track and the track feeling me and then figuring out the nuances and you know there's there's drivers that i've spent some time with that say hey listen when i'm in that space i can see bottle caps on the truck oh sure like have you seen some of that sure sure sure you know and like like see grains of the asphalt well again not to get too bogged down but the ability of your brain to adapt to 180 miles an hour on a bank turn after a few laps is astounding like you can slow your world down within this thing and yes as you as you say you're you're seeing everything and your brain's kind of making some huge calibrations to keep you alive in that scenario and it's just a fun experiment if nothing else it's cool that you're into it it's a forcing function for being present.

[932] Dangerous.

[933] Well, and I acknowledge, too, like, even as I talk about Kobe Bryant or I talk about Bodie Miller, like, I don't, I also recognize that Kobe probably biochemically is Kobe Bryant.

[934] Like, for him goofing around in the locker room and being good time Charlie with his teammates, it wouldn't be pleasurable for him, for whatever reason, you know.

[935] He doesn't desire what Shaq desired.

[936] And again, I'm, I'm assuming a lot to know a lot of about them, but this is just my, you know, armchair assessment of what's going on.

[937] You got to, you got to kind of optimize what you really are, too, which is something to think about, right?

[938] Yeah, you mentioned this earlier.

[939] You said, like, I can't remember how you put it, but it's like to be the best, like, that conversation that we're talking about.

[940] And there's a part of it that I wanted to add, which is, like, a really big part of life is knowing how you want to be, not just what you want to do.

[941] But how do you want to engage and be you while you're trying to do the minutes that we have?

[942] You know, we only get 1440 a day, 1 ,040 minutes a day.

[943] We're spending 960 of them sleeping.

[944] You know, like how do you want to do those minutes, those moments?

[945] And those people that condition and train their mind to live in the present moment more often end up experiencing in high performance because that's where high performance takes place.

[946] the highest performance happens only in the present moment.

[947] And that's also where wisdom is revealed.

[948] And so those that spend more time in the present moment experience more of the richness and the texture of life.

[949] But our minds are wild.

[950] Yeah.

[951] And back to that training conversation we're having, who is actually trained their mind.

[952] Where does one go for training, for mind training?

[953] Yeah.

[954] So people that have spent years to understand how minds work.

[955] And so these are, in my best opinion, licensed professionals that have studied the theories and the strategies and the tactics and techniques and understand how the mind works and has the artistic skill to get you as well, to understand you.

[956] Is that a therapist?

[957] Well, it's like usually a psychologist.

[958] Doesn't have to be, but they're formally trained.

[959] I mean, those are the ones that are formally trained.

[960] Therapists too, you know, all that being said is that there are very mechanical ways that we can all train our mind.

[961] You can train confidence.

[962] You can train the ability to be calm, breathing training, confidence from self -talk.

[963] You can train mindfulness, right, becoming more aware of your thoughts and actions.

[964] You can train optimism, which we believe is at the center of mental toughness.

[965] Optimism is the belief that is going to work out.

[966] So if you believe it's going to work out and you condition your mind to believe things work out, then why not stay in it when it's hard?

[967] Uh -huh.

[968] Most people, when it's hard, they eject.

[969] And they do these funny little things.

[970] I do them too.

[971] Like, I'm not trying to get on a pulpit here.

[972] Like, we do these funny little things to save ourselves, to save our self -esteem.

[973] You know, but optimism is like this fundamental belief it's going to work out.

[974] It's not right now going according to plan.

[975] So what am I going to do?

[976] If I believe it's going to work out, I'm going to stay in it.

[977] That's a really cool thing.

[978] Yeah.

[979] So what's interesting to me is I have.

[980] never been the person that like I didn't move to Los Angeles and think I'm going to make it that really wasn't my modus operandi I was like I'm going to prevent a regret like I have to pursue this or I'll be mad at myself I will feel like I let myself down if I don't pursue it yet I don't think it's going to happen I'm aware of the numbers I'm aware of all these things I was never optimistic about it but lo and behold it happened so I don't know what was your driver like what was the main driver i get the regret piece but then when you got here what what are your primary drivers well that all had to adjust once i was actually at the party because i thought this i'm not going to enjoy this experience if this is how i'm perceiving it all right like the regret based model yes yeah like uh just preventing a regret or or being uh so ashamed of myself for not trying you know i do start from a place of extreme negativity just i think hardwired that way or trauma as a kid whatever the reason is it's not really super relevant but when times i have experienced optimism like you're talking about is when i've been directing movies and i'm like no no we're making the day that we're always going to make the day that's never an option to me that we're not going to make the day make the day make the day is you're you're supposed to shoot five scenes that day you have 12 hours of sunlight yeah and you'll be on many movie sets where they lose the day that you have to kick a scene to the next day or they kick it to a week later right i don't work that way i'm like we will always make our days and i had one of the ades at the end of the movie go like i i actually learned something from you even though i'm 60 like you can will some stuff i witnessed you will some stuff and i thought this is so weird because that's not really me like i think of myself as pretty pessimistic and negative so but let's go back deconstruct that just a little bit back to the thoughts words and actions like you believed it right oh 100 % so your thoughts were like we're going to figure it out we're smart we're going to figure it out we got some skill here your words were like yeah okay we're going to win the day and then your actions were to back it up like maybe you had to move a little faster maybe you have some animation your posture lean forward i'm pushing valleys i'm like helping people grab cable yeah that's what's about so that so that for me goes back to that thought words and action and when we're around people like that it's so stimulating it's contagious right yeah and and it can also be benevolent as well right it can also it can it doesn't always have to work in this wonderful way yeah it can be a guru it can be on the other side of things too you know and the bog one right yeah so so you know but that idea that we line things up in that respect is contagious for sure yeah and the science is not clear there right but i feel it and when i'm in those switched on environments i'm like yeah and like we start you know birds I'm fascinated with how birds move and like if you've seen a big flock of birds like and like one sends a signal and then they all dip and shift and then another one sends a signal and they all loop and flow yeah and so I don't know how far off we are from that but when we find group flow man I love being in those environments yeah there was there was there was I read something recently I can't remember what book it was in but it was about that it was about Spalding's is that the ones the huge flocks and they all move And what's interesting is, oh, I know, it was a breakdown of that the brain can't, like, if you boil down a conservative and a liberal's two different points of view, the conservative is very concerned about the individual traditionally and the liberal is very concerned about society or the group.

[981] And they were saying you can't think of both at the same time, basically.

[982] You can focus on one or the other.

[983] And their example was looking at a big flock of birds.

[984] if you look at the individual bird within those flocks, they're doing something unique.

[985] Yet if you zoom out the entire flock is doing something coordinated, so it's kind of at odds with itself.

[986] You know, both things are happening at the same time.

[987] And that's kind of what you're striving for and some kind of healthy democracy is like someone's watching out for the individual and someone's watching out for the flock and somehow we can make all this happen.

[988] Idealistic, isn't it?

[989] Yeah.

[990] Yeah.

[991] I'm nodding my head.

[992] Like, that sounds right.

[993] that sounds so good right but we get bogged down in one or the other viewpoints but i don't know if families work that way you know so i don't know if communities you know i don't know if tribes work that way in the ideal sense yes but this is one of the reasons i think people are attracted to small communities of people that are trying to solve something that mission -minded approach from a military perspective or sport or the extraordinary moon mission that people you know we're fortunate enough to be part of like they talk about how extraordinary that time in their life was because people were working towards something you know in a chaotic harmony sometimes but there was that alignment also going back to optimism really quick i do think if you live your life with some element of it will just work out you subconsciously are making moves to make that happen whether or not you are saying them out loud i think because you've set this standard for yourself thing you're doing sort of things like confirmation bias or like if you're convinced it's not going to work out you look for all the things proving it won't work out whereas if you believe it's going to you look for you you see you spot all the things that confirm it will work i guess for an example for me i i feel like i'm always going to have enough money i just always am going to have enough so i think with that mentality i am subconsciously doing things to ensure that I do have enough.

[994] Does that make sense?

[995] Yeah.

[996] So confirmation bias is like finding the thing.

[997] The opposite is another way to look at what you're describing is that people that are anxious, they actually live in a more dangerous world because they're finding things to demonstrate that they're not crazy.

[998] They're finding.

[999] Confirmed.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] And interpreting things.

[1002] So your model like that I'm going to always have enough money would be a basic statement about your ability to earn or your ability to not spend frivolously.

[1003] And so it doesn't mean that you're going to be a billionaire.

[1004] No. It means that you understand how to take care of yourself in a modern society and not be above your means so that you're not putting, like, no, that's a general kind of core statement or belief system that you hold of yourself, which would actually be, here's a very fancy phrase, part of a person who has high self -efficacy.

[1005] So efficacy is a scientific phrase for power.

[1006] Yeah.

[1007] Like it's not, your statement's not about money.

[1008] Right.

[1009] But it's just funny because I would not, I'm not doing those things purposefully.

[1010] I'm not saying like, okay, so I'm going to be careful here this month or that, you know.

[1011] But I think I am doing those things subconsciously because I've set a standard for myself that I'm going to have enough, basically.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] So I think if you like set some things in your brain, sometimes then your actions will sort of follow that or maybe not maybe that's not maybe that's scary to say because then well it's it's um it's a little pop psychology that thought yeah and but that doesn't mean it's wrong it just means we can't quite find the evidence but like you would i think you would recognize if you're teaching a child how to shoot a hoop shoot a basket right that we wouldn't want that person we wouldn't coach them and say to them hey whatever you do just don't miss right we right we would say hey focus on the back of the rim yeah right like see it going in like we would say that why is that oh because we create some images in our mind and then our body tries to figure out how to make those images work it's a little pop psych I'm telling you though that this is where I get on the fringe a little bit from science and I go but I don't need a whole lot of evidence because I know that it works that way for me too right yeah I can tell you this fun thing that parallels that and I also race off road which is you know in the desert and there's a rule there's two rules in off road racing which is if you come around a turn and you are heading straight for a boulder you have to look at something else don't look at the boulder yeah your your body wants so bad to stare at that boulder to make sure you don't hit it but you will ensure that you're going to hit it if that's what you're staring at so it's like it's it's this weird muscle memory you have to force yourself to redirect if you're going to hit it you're going to hit it but you don't need to be looking at it you know so but when you magically when you look somewhere else some some miracle happens and you end up there we don't know exactly how it works right and there's probably some scientists that in some research i'm not familiar with it has it sorted out but we're not there yet as far as i know but i a thousand percent agree like we see it with our kids we see it in off uh yeah off road racing yeah yeah the other principle is is is when in trouble full throttle it's like skiing lean forward you lean back you're out of control uh -huh you know like there's a lot of there's a lot of those things in sport and life as well.

[1014] You know, be aggressive.

[1015] Take a good chop at the ball in baseball rather than hesitate, you know, like we coach those things as well.

[1016] Yeah, all very counterintuitive stuff.

[1017] In some ways.

[1018] Against your instincts in the moment.

[1019] Can we talk a couple of what I would call candy?

[1020] So when you worked with Felix, it's public knowledge that his specific issue was, he was claustrophobic?

[1021] Yes.

[1022] He was.

[1023] Yeah, about four years into the project.

[1024] the whole project was being scrubbed and they had all the technology in place his you know his fitness was on point they had all the bright minds in the room and um he just couldn't figure out how to stay in the suit long enough and so he was creating a claustrophobic response to being in the space suit okay i can really relate to this i feel like i i don't have a lot of phobias but claustrophobia is one of them so what was your like where do you start well I mean, I could give you the specifics of it, but in general, where we start is, like, what do you want?

[1025] And that's a big question.

[1026] You know, like, if you answer that question for yourself in life right now, because that was a moment of crisis, you know, but if you're not in a moment of crisis and you ask yourself, like, what do I really want in life?

[1027] And then get honest with yourself.

[1028] So it started there, because maybe he needed my help to get out of the projects.

[1029] Sure.

[1030] Maybe he needed my help, you know, to, go further into the project but we had to start there yeah and this is public again but his response was um in in a nutshell it's like it'll be more painful for me to walk away from this project than it would be to go into the project and die i would rather go and die but i literally don't know what's happening that i can't stay in the suit that i need to be in right and so he's willing to do whatever it took to unlock that and so then we just got into the psychology like how to train his mind to unlock that conditioned response to his suit to like disconnect it is that to go to embrace it oh to embrace it yeah to embrace it so is it like i have a i have a very thin understanding of what i think is called immersion therapy right is like oCD folks will they have a fear of something they'll make them go handle trash like literally go through a dumpster this kind of thing is it is it in that same world at all yeah so the the model is flooding or systematic descent incitization, immersion is a nice phrase for it.

[1031] But the science is, the first thing that we do is you build a model.

[1032] Let's just make it simple and say it's one to ten.

[1033] So a one on this model is it's like steps of intensity.

[1034] So one is low intensity, 10 is high intensity.

[1035] So 10 is being, is holding the snake.

[1036] Okay.

[1037] And a one is thinking about driving to the place where you might hold a snake.

[1038] Uh -huh.

[1039] Okay.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] And then an eight is like, you're walking the room and you see the snake that's like an eight okay so you build this model of intensity of the fear response and then we get really clear on what that you know make sure that that's right and calibrate the accuracy of it then we pull off of that and backfill any of the psychological skills the mental skills that will help you or the person be in control or command of themselves in those moments each specific step yeah so then so what is that well we're going to do some breathing training we're going to do some self -talk training we're going to increase your awareness of your self -talk and your breathing so that's mindfulness we're going to have some strategies and tools that you can use your mind to actually bite down or relax even more when i say bite down like grid it out like to stay in it yeah and then eventually get to relaxation we're going to use a concept of locus of control that listen you're in control of yourself and you don't have to go to the next level but you can't control what the snake's going to do, right?

[1042] So this is about controlling you.

[1043] And then we make a commitment, the person makes a commitment that as we start the progression, and we're in level one, that we don't get to go to level two until that person has full command.

[1044] So what happens for most people is that they get somewhere on that track, that one to 10 track.

[1045] Let's call it, they see the spider, they see the snake, if you will.

[1046] And what do they do?

[1047] They tighten up, right?

[1048] and every like the full flight fright freeze mechanisms in our body in our brain activate and then we leave so now what we've just done is paired an awful internal experience with the spider i'm sorry with the snake we're using a snake metaphor and then we run away from it so now we've strengthened that response so we make the commitment that you're not going to leave you're going to use all the psychological tools that we've been working on and you're going to exercise and train them prior to getting into those into these conditions right the level eights and level tens and you're you're going to stay there until you figure it out now you don't have to get to a level nine but you're going to stay to level eight right and you ain't leaving that's that's what it's about it's kind of baby steps right it's like it's also again back to a hey it's a little bit one day at a time it's like yeah look at the thing in front of you you got to learn to shut your mind off from the future, from broadcasting into the future or projecting into the future, right?

[1049] If you can really keep it incremental, people can kind of do incredible things.

[1050] Yeah, and I would just say the important part of that aspect is training the mental skills, training those skills ahead of time.

[1051] So it's not just thrusting somebody at the edge of the cliff that's afraid of things and say, hey, figure it out, I'll see you later.

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] You know, it's like, no, no, no, give them the skills of breathing and self -talk and awareness of that and like.

[1054] Well, a morbid version of this is I read this fascinating book on killing.

[1055] I don't know if you ever heard of that book.

[1056] Grossman.

[1057] Yeah.

[1058] Oh, you have, right?

[1059] Oh, yeah.

[1060] So those are the whole history of guys in World War I. They would find dead, and they were holding their guns, and they had never fired it.

[1061] And this is when they discovered, oh, we've thought of this binary response to fear being flight or fight.

[1062] But really, if you look at the animal kingdom, 90 % of conflicts are resolved with posturing and submitting, right?

[1063] Yeah.

[1064] So you have way more wiring to either submit when someone postures or posture and that person submits.

[1065] And what they figured out is that when the soldiers were running from trench to trench, their brain, their reptilian brain was seeing posturing.

[1066] They heard a loud noise.

[1067] And then the response was to submit to freeze.

[1068] Like, don't kill me. I'm freezing.

[1069] You win.

[1070] And so through training and they track, they have data on all this by Vietnam.

[1071] They've figured out how to train these guys to fire no matter what.

[1072] Yeah, it started the Civil War.

[1073] Oh, okay.

[1074] And the Civil War, part of the first war, like, to your point, that they found all the bayonets, like the rifles on the, with like three, four bullets in it.

[1075] Yes.

[1076] Is that there was an overwhelming response to seeing your cousin.

[1077] Uh -huh.

[1078] Right?

[1079] To seeing the human that looks just like you.

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] And then there was a little bit of that removal in World War II, but there was some conditioning that they were also engaging on, if I remember correctly, where.

[1082] Making them the other.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] Objectifying them.

[1085] Yes.

[1086] And then instead of practicing.

[1087] shooting against hay bales they were practicing against like things that looked like humans right so the desensitization yeah to like killing yes right and then also just establishing muscle memory in response so that when your thinking goes offline which was great at pointing out like at a certain blood pressure and heart rate your your brain shifts from frontal lobe thinking to mid brain reptilian brain and now you're not really making decisions you're like an instinct mode yeah it's the that i love that you know like the the nuances of how the mind and brain are working together it's so fascinating is it because it really is you know because all humans have a desire to retroactively understand why they've done things so just getting a piece of the puzzle like that you can kind of go back in your memory and go like oh yeah that's why when that bully was doing this i that's weird i didn't run or fight i just fucking froze yeah and you're like oh you've only been presented two options you're like well what did i do i I don't even know how to make sense of that.

[1088] Unfortunately, submission happens more than we think, right?

[1089] More than people want to talk about because fight is in some ways cool.

[1090] Sure, sure.

[1091] Running away is like, I took the high ground.

[1092] Uh -huh.

[1093] But freezing and submission, submission is like rolling over and showing your underbelly.

[1094] Yes.

[1095] And so there's a social acceptance or deference that comes with that, but it's at the cost of dignity.

[1096] oh i can yes you know when it blew my fucking mind and i was like oh wow this is the aspect of the me too conversation that no one's talking about we were watching a uh a story on tv about the owner of this chain of restaurants in new york and uh he had some allegations against him this woman woman was explaining what happened to her in the car which was she got in the car with her boss he leaned over to kiss her and maybe touched her boob and she froze and what i was saying is The guy's a creep, but what I had never considered in my life of someone who pursued women is that I might not get any signal.

[1097] They might freeze out of fear of this situation.

[1098] And I don't, there's no signals to really go on.

[1099] And that's a, guys need to know that.

[1100] Like, I don't know that.

[1101] I'm expecting either, no thank you.

[1102] Move away.

[1103] I don't want to kiss.

[1104] You know, something verbal, maybe something even nonverbal and physical.

[1105] But I've never considered someone might just freeze.

[1106] and I think it's a high percentage of people that just freeze.

[1107] Oh, yeah.

[1108] I mean, it's a real brain strategy, you know, to deal with something that is threatening.

[1109] Yes.

[1110] Yeah.

[1111] But there's something wrong with the other person in that experience that doesn't recognize the freeze.

[1112] Exactly.

[1113] I was just about to say that.

[1114] Like, if you can't figure out, you know, I'm not talking about you, Dax, but like, if you can't figure out that someone is, like, completely rigid, you know, like there's a predatorial nature about that that is still it's especially if you're an environment where you're trying to breed intimacy and somebody is totally rigid that's a good sign that they're not excited to keep going forward yes okay but just just to be provocative and hypothetical i could see you leaning over to kiss a girl and she's kind of still and you go like oh um she's never done this before she's confused about what she's supposed to do next.

[1115] Not necessarily she doesn't want to.

[1116] Just, oh, maybe this is new for her.

[1117] I mean, not in this scenario.

[1118] It's like a waitress who was 30 years old.

[1119] Whatever.

[1120] Obviously not that situation.

[1121] But I'm talking like two 16 year olds or something.

[1122] I could see where you'd fill in the blank of something that was wrong.

[1123] Right.

[1124] But then you could just say, if you're starting to feel like something's a little something, you could just say, is this okay?

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] Just do a quick check.

[1127] Yes.

[1128] But again, it's not going to ruin it.

[1129] It wouldn't hurt us to let kids know that this is a response.

[1130] Like, it's just something you're not, you've not been warned about.

[1131] You're not thinking of.

[1132] Well, two 16 -year -olds doesn't have that layer, that troubling power, you know, there's that part too.

[1133] Yes.

[1134] But you're right on, I think it's like I've never had the thought that it would be important to talk about that as a natural response to stress.

[1135] But it is actually meant to be a response to threat, not just stress.

[1136] So stress would be more about a flushed.

[1137] face.

[1138] Uh -huh.

[1139] And then threat is like attack, run, or freeze.

[1140] I'll submit.

[1141] Yeah.

[1142] You know, and so.

[1143] And I think evolutionarily, right?

[1144] Freezing is most animals have bad eyesight.

[1145] And if you don't move, they can't see you.

[1146] Like, there's a really well -worn reason that that, you're basically just being dead still in hopes that they lose sight of you.

[1147] And, you know, I think that you can also map back to when you're a child and say, what is my natural response?

[1148] when you heard a sound under your bed or in your closet like what did you do?

[1149] Did you jump up and go see?

[1150] Did you run away from it or did you get really quiet and stop breathing?

[1151] You know?

[1152] Or put your sheet over your magic sheet over your head?

[1153] Yeah.

[1154] So that would be a little bit more like freeze.

[1155] Maybe it's a little bit of a flea.

[1156] What did you do?

[1157] I think I definitely froze.

[1158] You more of the like, just be still.

[1159] Yeah.

[1160] Although she had an amazing plan in her head.

[1161] Tell them what your plan was.

[1162] plans that I never executed, but I had plans that, like, if there was a kidnapper, I could tell there was somebody in the house, I would get under my bed and then, and then attach myself to the frame of the bed so that when he looked under, he'd see emptiness, but I was really in there, just hanging on to the top.

[1163] Amazing what we do with imagination.

[1164] I know.

[1165] I know.

[1166] I mean, I was young, but still, I still kind of think that could work.

[1167] Sounds about right.

[1168] I'd love to put it to the test.

[1169] Um, so my very last question for you is just, um, you obviously do, you do work, uh, you've done work with, um, Olympians.

[1170] You've done work with the Seahawks.

[1171] You've done work with Felix for the Red Bull Stratos.

[1172] Um, you also do work with companies, right?

[1173] Like you work with Microsoft.

[1174] So when you go to companies, what, what is it that you're, uh, expected to help them with?

[1175] Okay.

[1176] So there's a little bit of a back story is that coach Carol and I, head coach of the Seattle Seahawks.

[1177] We were heading into our first Super Bowl and we're in the hallway one day at the training center.

[1178] And he comes up like super animated and switched on.

[1179] He goes, Mike, can you feel it?

[1180] I was like, yeah.

[1181] And he was talking about the culture, like how alive the culture was.

[1182] How many noses were pointed in the same direction and the real work, the difficult challenges were happening.

[1183] And it was like the good stuff.

[1184] And without hesitation, he says, do you think anyone outside of sport would be interested in what we're doing?

[1185] and without hesitation he said let's just write it down so what does that mean like he wrote down he like it was a back of a napkin almost right he's had 40 years in sport and i had 20 years in sport and his is about how to align and create the methodologies to support a culture where people can flourish so culture based the systems and ecosystems there and then my stuff is really about how do you train from a psychological perspective the people that want to be their very best how do they condition and train their mind?

[1186] Yeah.

[1187] And you put one and one together, and it felt like it was 11.

[1188] Like it was just super dynamic.

[1189] And so we wrote it down, put them together, created a short little list of like how we would do it in another environment.

[1190] And then I'll leave out some of the part of the story.

[1191] But we had a conversation with Satya and Adela, the CEO of Microsoft.

[1192] And he was four weeks into his job.

[1193] And he's like, man, these are the same principles of purpose.

[1194] and meaning and flourishing and conditioning one mind to be open and learn and progressive in the way that they organize their internal life and their outer life to get this harmony and just radical work ethic to go be mission minded in life.

[1195] And so they have 180, 60, 160, 180 ,000 people that report up to the CEO.

[1196] I'm sorry.

[1197] For me personally, fuck that.

[1198] That's the last thing I want to worry about is 180 ,000.

[1199] People, I mean, you're nearly a president of a country.

[1200] It's outrageous.

[1201] And their mission is beautiful to help every person and organization in the world achieve more.

[1202] Uh -huh.

[1203] Like, they're really about it.

[1204] And so, anyways, that turned into full -day trainings that we were offering people.

[1205] And I was coaching up at that point, some Olympians and sports psychs to help with the mission to help them.

[1206] And eventually, we've reached 30 ,000 people at eight hours a person.

[1207] They've committed over 240 ,000 human hours to train their minds so that the people in their organizations have a command of themselves, will work better together, can be mission -minded, you know, can truly have purpose and meaning and flourish in life.

[1208] And so eventually what they taught us to do is to, and they showed us how to do it, is to build an online curriculum.

[1209] And so now inside of Microsoft, we've got this online training.

[1210] And then for the first time ever, we've brought that out now in.

[1211] to public access.

[1212] And so it's available.

[1213] It's an eight -week online course for anybody.

[1214] Now, let me ask you a really simple, cynical question about that.

[1215] I totally understand people wanting to change their life, which is very hard to do.

[1216] You know, for me, it took life or death stakes for me to be willing to change.

[1217] I can see doing it for a Super Bowl trophy.

[1218] I can see doing it for a gold medal.

[1219] If you're going to go into Staples and try to get that team fired up, about the mission, isn't it much harder to get people to want the outcome of like, we got to sell 6 % more office supplies this quarter?

[1220] I mean, it's harder, right?

[1221] That's not cynical.

[1222] That's real.

[1223] The reason people change is pain.

[1224] Right.

[1225] The reason people grow is because they get uncomfortable.

[1226] And to help people get uncomfortable is really hard.

[1227] You know, that's a very difficult thing to do.

[1228] Where if you, again, go back to athletics for a minute, is that the whole day is designed to get uncomfortable like to get up to the edge so that you can really learn and grow okay so to go into the business frame and say even Microsoft those people have a potential to have stock that'll be worth 15 million dollars and even there there's a huge carrot you know oh there really is yeah all that being said is our first assessment of you know maybe the first thousand people we worked with is that they're working as hard as humans can work they're about as tired of as humans can be.

[1229] And that is painful.

[1230] So we address the pain.

[1231] You know, like, hey, what is this like?

[1232] You know, here's our observation.

[1233] What's happening?

[1234] So we did that deep work.

[1235] And it started with Satya, the CEO, way upstream.

[1236] And he stopped, you know, two full days with his senior team to say, hey, let's get our philosophy.

[1237] Our individual personal philosophies right.

[1238] Let's figure out how we're defining high performance and successful ways of living for ourselves.

[1239] Let's train ourselves from a mindfulness approach.

[1240] and you know he's on public record he he just wrote a book sate wrote a book and this is sound like i'm gonna brag for a minute so i am i guess but like he put us at pages four five and six of his book about how he's switched around that culture he's done it not us yeah he's done it and he's done it he might be the most significant CEO of modern times like what he's done is radical and so um he's made this beautiful commitment that we've been fortunate to be part of to actually train um the some of the most hardworking, brilliant people in high tech right now to live in the present moment more often.

[1241] Well, here's a counterintuitive thing, again, that I was forced to learn through sobriety, which is, at least the program I'm in demands that sobriety is number one, because without sobriety, there's no family, without sobriety, there's no career, without sobriety, there's nothing.

[1242] It is literally the foundation for all that which can come on top of it.

[1243] And I would imagine it's hard to convince people who are very inclined to work hard and work a lot, to let them know that if you take care of that outside human, the you, everything can be built on top of that.

[1244] And in fact, there's no real flourishing unless that human's taken care of before the employee.

[1245] That's exactly it.

[1246] And one of the, I think, most powerful statements we get after is that when somebody walks away, whether it's an online training or in person, and they say, this is why I love working at Microsoft, is because this type of engagement.

[1247] I'm better and I'm gonna be better at work yes but I'm better I'm now I feel like I can be a better parent better lover better spouse yeah better friend it's not complicated the mind is complicated yeah the brain which is different than the mind the brain is the tissue the brain is complicated but the idea like to organize your inner life to have great command and to organize your outer world to have some alignment it's it is not that overwhelming.

[1248] Now, to practice it on a regular basis, day in and day out, whether it's optimism, confidence, breathing, mindfulness, recovery.

[1249] You know, that's one of the kind of core pillars is like, do you recover properly?

[1250] In elite sport, we talk about recovery way more than we talk about working hard.

[1251] Because you know what's happening right now, though, is the hustle hard mentality?

[1252] I'm so fatigued by it.

[1253] I don't know if you guys are.

[1254] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1255] Give 150%.

[1256] Yeah, someone else is working, so you better work to.

[1257] Like, yeah.

[1258] Oh my God.

[1259] Like, it does, that's not sustainable, and it's not even fulfilling.

[1260] Right.

[1261] You know, so we talk a lot about the art and science of recovery.

[1262] Mm. Yeah.

[1263] Well, Michael, you're fascinating.

[1264] I'm really glad you came in and talked about this.

[1265] You say that to everyone.

[1266] Well, we do, but sometimes we're lying.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] You know, this has been a really good experience for me. So thank you.

[1269] Oh, thank you.

[1270] Me too.

[1271] Yeah, we're excited to have you.

[1272] Come back.

[1273] And now my favorite part of the show, Oh, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1274] Monica checks the facts.

[1275] Monica checks the facts out and another fact down and another facts down.

[1276] Monica checks the facts.

[1277] Hey, she's going to check those two.

[1278] Monica checks the facts.

[1279] Monica checks the facts.

[1280] Wow, that was great.

[1281] Two different folks recommended that song, and I can't believe we haven't done it yet.

[1282] I wondered if that was it from your own brain.

[1283] It felt too good, right, to be just something that I came up with.

[1284] Well, no, I didn't say that.

[1285] I didn't say that.

[1286] Well, I've been really kind of stumbling my way through some of the most recent ones, so it would be, you know, it totally be understandable that I got that from somebody.

[1287] Okay, here we go.

[1288] Yeah, it was from Instagram, and it was someone whose account name is YR -D -B -1.

[1289] Y -R -D.

[1290] Yardbird.

[1291] Oh, yard bird.

[1292] I always say yard bird.

[1293] You do?

[1294] Yes.

[1295] I always call chicken yard bird.

[1296] You've heard me say that.

[1297] Oh, this is, this is very moist yard bird.

[1298] I said that on Sunday after mother prepared the moist chicken.

[1299] I didn't hear you say that.

[1300] You didn't?

[1301] No, I'm sorry.

[1302] You probably couldn't hear over the sound of your own chewing.

[1303] I couldn't.

[1304] It was very tasty yard bird.

[1305] You were massacating that yard bird with, oh, the people with miso would have been jumping out windows.

[1306] I would not like to do.

[1307] Well, anyway, thank you, Yard Bird.

[1308] Yeah.

[1309] Now, I didn't stick to their script exactly.

[1310] Okay.

[1311] They were hoping I would say, and another one gone, and another one gone.

[1312] Monica checks the facts.

[1313] Hey, she's going to check you too.

[1314] Monica checks the facts.

[1315] Okay.

[1316] So I kind of went off script, but it still worked.

[1317] Yeah, it still worked.

[1318] It was still nice.

[1319] And I bet they couldn't spell the...

[1320] That's hard to spell.

[1321] Yeah.

[1322] How would you even...

[1323] For a billion dollars, do you?

[1324] Do you think you could spell that in a way that someone would be able to read it?

[1325] Yeah.

[1326] And know what to do.

[1327] You would probably write it, A, Y. Aye.

[1328] No. A. A. Dess.

[1329] And then you just keep writing A's.

[1330] Okay, great.

[1331] I figured it out.

[1332] And that concludes Michael Jervais.

[1333] No. I was just thinking, what if we never got to any effect?

[1334] Oh, I'm so glad I just thought of this.

[1335] Big, big blunder, again, on our part, we keep doing this.

[1336] I have two to say.

[1337] Oh, you have two to say?

[1338] Okay, but we're owning them.

[1339] We're owning them as quick as we can in real time.

[1340] So, you know what's funny is because I listened back to it and I was like, why did that slip past me?

[1341] Because I know who Steve Austin is from $6 million man because I watched that show.

[1342] Yeah.

[1343] He was played, of course, by Lee Majors, who was also the fall guy, which was my all -time favorite show.

[1344] Anyways, in the fact check, like, it's kind of, there's no setup for it.

[1345] You just, all of a sudden, you go, Stone Cold Steve Austin.

[1346] And I go, yeah, Stone Cold Steve Austin.

[1347] You go, I know him.

[1348] And I go, oh, yeah.

[1349] Well, okay, because for the people who just listen, they don't need to hear a whole 10 -minute thing about why we talked about it.

[1350] They just heard it five minutes ago.

[1351] I know.

[1352] I'm only explaining why I didn't catch it.

[1353] It's like, for me, I hadn't just listened to it 10 minutes ago.

[1354] Right.

[1355] So you go Stone Cold Steve Austin.

[1356] I just went straight to like, oh, do you know who he is?

[1357] And then we have a conversation about what wrestlers we would know or not know.

[1358] Yeah.

[1359] Did he say $6 million man?

[1360] He did, yeah.

[1361] Okay, that's what I didn't hear.

[1362] Nor does that show, that title of a show probably mean anything to you.

[1363] No, I do know it because they mentioned it on Friends.

[1364] But I wouldn't have, I said, I would have heard that.

[1365] I may not have put two and two together that it was the same person.

[1366] They both have that name.

[1367] It does beg the question, did Stone Cole take his name from the $6 million man?

[1368] He probably did.

[1369] Yeah, if we ever meet him, we should ask him.

[1370] I didn't know he said that.

[1371] And I, then after when people were getting upset.

[1372] set i thought oh maybe everyone just assumed like how do people know which steve austin he's talking about well he did say the tv show yeah okay yeah but it's a wrestling is a tv show sure it is but he i think he said six million dollar yeah okay well in that case uh any who that was one just tiny a little that was one of people were outraged by that you know it's really funny i will say it was a poignant moment for me because really the outrage.

[1373] It was your mistake.

[1374] So to me, I didn't read it as outrage.

[1375] And I actually had the awareness to see this.

[1376] So I was reading about it and a lot of people were vocal about it.

[1377] And I realized when it was about you, I was able to just see like, oh, they're just pointing out like, hey, you should know.

[1378] I think he was actually talking about this.

[1379] But it's my mistake and I read all those comments.

[1380] I think they're outraged.

[1381] I had like a moment where I was like, oh, it feels differently when it's about Monica than it is about me. That's interesting.

[1382] Like when I shit the bed on the Mormon thing and you were reading those, you probably didn't see them as direct attacks on me as much as I did.

[1383] Well, except it depends on what we're talking about.

[1384] Like, Steve Austin, I don't think people care that much about.

[1385] It's not people's religion.

[1386] Well, although it's probably some people's religion.

[1387] Well, the wrestling is probably some people's religion.

[1388] Not the $6 million, man. Well, maybe.

[1389] I don't know.

[1390] It's hard to know.

[1391] Can't.

[1392] But when you're talking about something serious, like the second one I'm about to say.

[1393] Oh, there's another one?

[1394] Yeah.

[1395] Charlottesville, this was in Adam Pally's episode.

[1396] You say Charlottesville, South Carolina.

[1397] Oh.

[1398] And it's Charlottesville, Virginia.

[1399] Oops.

[1400] And then I do a whole fact.

[1401] Then I like give facts about South Carolina.

[1402] Oh, we really, like, I totally didn't, yeah.

[1403] Started with my misunderstanding.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] And then we built more misunderstanding on top of it.

[1406] Yeah.

[1407] So, you know, we are very sorry about that.

[1408] Yeah.

[1409] So I guess, you know what I do is when I think of Charlottesville, I, the first thing I is not Charlotte, North Carolina.

[1410] That's where my head goes.

[1411] Okay.

[1412] Like, when I'm trying to remember the name of Charlottesville, I stopped first at Charlotte, North Carolina.

[1413] And then I go, no, it's not even in North Carolina.

[1414] It's South Carolina.

[1415] Oh, it's just.

[1416] It's Virginia.

[1417] It's Virginia.

[1418] So.

[1419] Well, the meat of that, though, was definitely Jews will not replace us.

[1420] Right.

[1421] I think that's the most.

[1422] But people in South Carolina probably don't feel like it's fair that they were made responsible for something, well, the evil they weren't, they didn't do.

[1423] Now, okay, well, I will just say to that, nor were the people in Virginia.

[1424] So it's not like you, no one's ever saying that the state of Virginia, these people traveled from all over the country to come be a part of that.

[1425] Yes, that's right.

[1426] That's right.

[1427] But we did feel, we did seem ignorant.

[1428] Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

[1429] And we were.

[1430] We were, and we're, all we can do is correct our mistakes.

[1431] That's right.

[1432] We're talking fast and loose and, you know, things are going to, we're going to fuck up.

[1433] They do.

[1434] I'm listening.

[1435] to a lot of hours.

[1436] You are.

[1437] Too many, I'd argue.

[1438] It's a lot of hours and things slip through the cracks.

[1439] Well, it becomes white noise at a certain point, right?

[1440] I try not to let it, but clearly it does sometimes.

[1441] Well, they've, like, had studies where they prove that the people watching those security monitors, that no one can actually pay attention to those TVs for, like, more than 40 minutes or something.

[1442] There's some statistic on it.

[1443] I'm not making an exact claim.

[1444] I don't want to get yelled at.

[1445] You get the point I'm making.

[1446] Yeah.

[1447] Yeah.

[1448] So I have to imagine the same goes for my voice and you.

[1449] You know, how much can you really hear of it and still pay attention?

[1450] Attentionia.

[1451] Well, yeah.

[1452] Sexual attention.

[1453] Well, really, it's just that I can't sit for five hours.

[1454] Like, I have to be doing other things too.

[1455] And sometimes if I'm doing something else and I lose my attention.

[1456] Well, if you diversed my attention.

[1457] If I multitask.

[1458] but I have to multitask.

[1459] Yeah.

[1460] I was pitching a plan for you and it just got annoying.

[1461] I realized I sounded annoying when I was doing it.

[1462] It's very hard to suggest to somebody like a time management strategy.

[1463] It feels very like a personal attack, doesn't it?

[1464] No. It doesn't feel like a personal attack, but it does feel like, oh, well, maybe you just don't.

[1465] Not, you don't understand, but unless you're doing that same thing, how could you really know how to time manage that?

[1466] well my argument was why don't you just do one hour blocks so you do an hour of editing and you do not look at your phone and then you take 15 minutes and look at your phone and then you do another hour block I just wonder I'm thinking out loud that you might do both things faster if you did it that way yeah I don't know but then as I was saying it I realized if someone was trying to manage my time for me I would be pretty defensive or triggered or feeling controlled.

[1467] No, I don't.

[1468] I don't think you're trying to control.

[1469] I think you're just trying to be helpful.

[1470] Always.

[1471] Yeah.

[1472] I've yet to try to do one thing that was aimed at hurting your feelings or destroying you.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] I mean, it's coming.

[1475] I'll do it.

[1476] It's in the future.

[1477] Don't do it.

[1478] But I haven't yet.

[1479] Yeah, there's no point in even having this conversation because there's too many factors and there's too many things that are not interesting for people to hear.

[1480] Right, right.

[1481] But thank you for that suggestion.

[1482] Yeah, you know what people do like hearing about sex tinch?

[1483] They do?

[1484] Yeah, I think so.

[1485] Don't you think?

[1486] I mean, that's why everyone's so interested in talking about Gaga and Coup on the Academy Awards, because you see that level of sex tinch.

[1487] Sexful tennie.

[1488] Yeah, in your imagination run.

[1489] They had an immense amount.

[1490] I'll just call it chemistry because I don't know if it's sex tinch or not.

[1491] I know nothing about it.

[1492] But a lot of chem.

[1493] Yeah.

[1494] Yeah, you could, it was really palpable.

[1495] Yeah.

[1496] Yeah, I liked it.

[1497] Chim tinch.

[1498] I liked it.

[1499] All right.

[1500] Well, so we knocked out those two old facts for everyone.

[1501] There'll probably be some in this one.

[1502] Yeah.

[1503] Get ready.

[1504] Just prepare yourself.

[1505] Yeah, I guess that's the.

[1506] The headline is, hey, we've not claimed we're perfect.

[1507] No. We're not perfect.

[1508] Even, even like, with the safety mechanism of a fact check, it's still, it makes me a little sympathetic to like news outlets.

[1509] Yeah.

[1510] Of course they're fucking getting it wrong.

[1511] Are you kidding?

[1512] They're giving information out 24 hours a day.

[1513] I know.

[1514] But it, which is fine if you get it wrong, but you just have to own it.

[1515] Yeah.

[1516] If that's the part where it gets tricky or people are just saying lies purposefully.

[1517] By the way, we're not saying anything purposefully wrong.

[1518] That's true.

[1519] Everything's an accident.

[1520] That's true.

[1521] But people will say things to try to coerce people into thinking something and then they don't own that.

[1522] Fake news.

[1523] Fake news.

[1524] Mm -hmm.

[1525] Hashtag fake news.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] Okay.

[1528] Michael Jervay.

[1529] Yeah.

[1530] It was great.

[1531] Oh, I was thrilled with him.

[1532] Yeah.

[1533] He was so fun.

[1534] Yeah.

[1535] And somebody that Wobby Wob went out and procured on his own.

[1536] Well, he met him before on Michael Rosenbaum's podcast.

[1537] Inside of you.

[1538] And he was wowed by him.

[1539] Yeah.

[1540] And brought him into our fold.

[1541] Yeah.

[1542] And it was great.

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] He was very smart.

[1545] You know, I always, he.

[1546] passed the test because you know anyone like that i'm a little bit cynical of like oh this guy well part of me is like can you really instruct people on how to be more efficient or uh you know optimize their performance is that real can one person talk someone into optimization so i'm always like 15 percent of me is like this person's a shy shirt kind of how he felt about life coaches uh -huh i'll extend that even you think that about psychologist Psychologists who are claiming that they can guide you towards peak performance.

[1547] I don't know.

[1548] That just seems a little suspic, tinch.

[1549] You know what I'm saying?

[1550] But all that to say, after like 40 minutes of staring into his eyes, I'm like, no, this guy is legitimately.

[1551] Yeah.

[1552] Yeah.

[1553] I totally disagree.

[1554] That's great.

[1555] Yeah.

[1556] I think that you can definitely impart positive attitude.

[1557] I think that's really a lot of it.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] It's like training your brain for positive thinking.

[1560] But I think the most poignant topic that was covered was actually how one finds their purpose.

[1561] Because why even tell, I mean, the biggest bigger problem probably other than actualizing your goals is that so many people don't know what their goal is.

[1562] I think that's the most ubiquitous problem.

[1563] Yeah.

[1564] So that's neat that he has that part of the equation.

[1565] Yeah.

[1566] There was also a lot of sex tension.

[1567] Oh, can you tell?

[1568] No. Yeah, between Michael and I. Oh.

[1569] Why do you say that?

[1570] He was very cute.

[1571] Yeah.

[1572] Of course.

[1573] Why?

[1574] Of course.

[1575] Because I got distracted by his cute face.

[1576] Because I turn every single conversation into something about looks or sex.

[1577] Right.

[1578] And it's distracting.

[1579] I'm finding purpose.

[1580] Oh, yeah.

[1581] Did we really think there are steps for finding your purpose?

[1582] I kind of feel like.

[1583] I'm not as performance psychologists, but I have some, like, simple guidelines, I think I would urge people to think about.

[1584] One of them is I would just be the thing I would be most conscious of during your self -reflection of what your purpose and goals are is, are they status motivated?

[1585] I think if you start by weeding out goals that are solely status -oriented, that's a good start, to find an actual purpose that'll be fulfilling if you accomplish it.

[1586] Yeah, absolutely.

[1587] But I don't really think that's the problem people have.

[1588] Like, I think some people really have just a problem figuring out what they're going to be doing.

[1589] Passionate about.

[1590] Yeah.

[1591] I don't know.

[1592] A part of me wonders if passion is something that we've, like, placed on.

[1593] That's not fully necessary for a purpose.

[1594] No, I bet anybody who went K through 12 had classes where they were like, I enjoy this, whether it was pottery or welding or any number of things.

[1595] And by the way, the purpose doesn't have to generate income or generate anything, right?

[1596] So clearly out of the fucking onslaught of options, they give you K through 12, right, of all the different topics, you got your singing, you got your gym, you know, your gym, all this shit.

[1597] One of those things sticks out to people.

[1598] Maybe.

[1599] You know?

[1600] Yeah, probably.

[1601] But I think there's...

[1602] I think the majority of people had a class they liked.

[1603] Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily always give you purpose.

[1604] Like, even if you follow that thing.

[1605] Like, sometimes that fizzles out or that becomes not fun for you anymore.

[1606] Also, purpose, in my opinion, like the people that have a tough time are people who just don't, don't know what their day -to -day is going to be.

[1607] And that's what I mean by purpose.

[1608] You need a reason to get up, I think.

[1609] I think there needs to be something happening in your day -to -day that makes you need to wake up and do that thing.

[1610] And even if that thing is not something you're crazy about, it's still something that you have to do.

[1611] somebody's holding you accountable for it.

[1612] I think that's really important.

[1613] That's interesting because I have a different perspective on it now than I would have had 15 years ago, which is I don't have many, if any, career aspirations anymore.

[1614] And so my getting up is I'm literally trying to have fun like I had in seventh grade.

[1615] That's what I'm trying to do.

[1616] I'm trying to ride dirt bikes with my friends.

[1617] I'm trying to be with the kids, make me feel that way, friendships and being social and having a Game of Thrones party makes me feel that way.

[1618] Like, I've now gone off of what I'm trying to accomplish, and now I'm just trying to capture 12 years old again for the rest of my life.

[1619] Right, which is great.

[1620] That's my purpose.

[1621] Yeah, but I don't think you would be able to have that unless you, unless you.

[1622] Had accomplished that other stuff?

[1623] It's not, it's, accomplishment is not the right word.

[1624] It literally be every day you have to go walk your neighbor's dog.

[1625] Uh -huh.

[1626] It doesn't have to be some massive accomplishment or some career goal, but there needs to be a reason for something for you to do every day.

[1627] Exactly.

[1628] You do have that.

[1629] You have children and people that require that.

[1630] But also, I don't want to miss the party.

[1631] That's my thing.

[1632] I got to get up because I don't want to miss the party.

[1633] And I'm going to manifest the party.

[1634] It's going to be a party, whether we go to a funeral or wherever.

[1635] Right.

[1636] It's time to party.

[1637] Okay.

[1638] All right.

[1639] Why are you yelling at me about your party?

[1640] What is that?

[1641] What the fuck?

[1642] What is it?

[1643] Earache relief?

[1644] Who's been sitting here?

[1645] Why is there earache relief in my lazy boy?

[1646] Is it yours?

[1647] Some motherfucker with an earache broke into this attic.

[1648] This is a clue about who's stealing our water because whoever's stealing our water, they're putting the water in their ear.

[1649] And then they're using earache relief to get it out.

[1650] Why is that, am I lazy?

[1651] It's definitely not yours?

[1652] No, I was looking for my chewing tobacco.

[1653] Oh, wow.

[1654] So I'm trying to chew as much tobacco as possible since I'm quitting after the ranch wraps.

[1655] Okay.

[1656] It's a good, it's a lofty goal, but I'm trying to accomplish it.

[1657] Okay, great.

[1658] You notice my skin's peeling off right now.

[1659] I didn't notice.

[1660] I don't notice it.

[1661] I was filming yesterday on the ranch and a midway through.

[1662] I noticed all my fucking skin's peeling off the brow ridge.

[1663] I can't tell.

[1664] I'm so gross sometimes.

[1665] I am.

[1666] No, you're not.

[1667] If you didn't like me as much and you just saw me at Starbucks, you're like, oh, my God, that guy has browridge dander.

[1668] No one would ever say that.

[1669] Probably what people would say is like, ooh, that person has sexual tension with the barista.

[1670] And his skin's peeling off.

[1671] That guy with the skin that's peeling off has sexual tennie.

[1672] Yeah.

[1673] Sexual tennie shoes?

[1674] Okay, I haven't done any facts yet.

[1675] Um, so you said, you said sports psychology is niche.

[1676] Now, I tried to find how many sports psychologists there are in the United States.

[1677] And I cannot find it.

[1678] So I think that means it is niche.

[1679] I think so.

[1680] Because there would be some statistic about it.

[1681] Also, let's just think about the people that require a sport psychologist.

[1682] It's not like if you're a weekend golfer, you need to go see a psychologist or weekend tennis players.

[1683] So you're talking about only professional athletes would need one.

[1684] Right.

[1685] Well, or, remember, they used him in Microsoft.

[1686] Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[1687] So not necessarily.

[1688] But sports psychology started to become visible at the Olympic Games in 1984.

[1689] Ooh, was that L .A.?

[1690] Oh, I think so.

[1691] Oh.

[1692] When the Olympic teams began to hire sports psychologists for their athletes and in 1985, when the U .S. team employed their first permanent sport psychologist.

[1693] For the Summer Olympics in 1996, the U .S. already had over 20 sports psychologists working with their athletes 20 in 96 oh my god I bet the number's 300 now probably every athlete has their own psychologists they might they should they need it I know so many of those things are fucking all mental like their body can do whatever their body can do and then some days they can't jump I know it's some days they can it's true it's crazy it's a mind fuck it is they have a bunch of sex tension with their own mind.

[1694] They do.

[1695] Okay.

[1696] Red Bull Stratos.

[1697] He said he jumped 130 ,000 feet, 128 ,100 feet.

[1698] Okay.

[1699] We can round up.

[1700] Well, no. Red Bull Stratos was a space diving project involving Austrian skydriver Felix Bumgardner.

[1701] On October 14th, 2012, Felix flew approximately 39 kilometers into the stratos.

[1702] Whoever wrote this is European because they wrote on 14 October 2012.

[1703] I had to do some fast changing in my brain.

[1704] It was quick.

[1705] I didn't even perceive that.

[1706] Thank you, but they wrote kilometers.

[1707] It could be Canadian, too.

[1708] We love Canada and Canadians.

[1709] Approximately 39 kilometers.

[1710] You know why that's a good joke?

[1711] Is universally the Canadians are loved around the world.

[1712] When you go backpacking through Europe, yeah, everyone puts Canadian flags their backpack as to not be mistaken for Americans.

[1713] So it's a really funny joke to make because no one would ever say, ooh, Canadians, yuck.

[1714] Yeah, exactly.

[1715] It was a big joke.

[1716] It was.

[1717] 39 kilometers into the stratosphere over New Mexico, United States, another giveaway that they had to write United States, in a helium balloon, before free falling in a pressure suit and then parachuting to Earth.

[1718] Listen, why do I not know about this?

[1719] I don't know why.

[1720] Does everyone know about it?

[1721] I certainly did.

[1722] Yeah.

[1723] I'm not.

[1724] But I'm pretty dialed into the whole Red Bull extreme world more than you.

[1725] That's true.

[1726] If they had thrown a cheerleader out of this capsule, you'd know all about it.

[1727] I'd probably know.

[1728] I'm not very clued in, I guess.

[1729] Anymore.

[1730] I'm not spending all my time answering these facts.

[1731] Right.

[1732] That I'm not really looking at any other facts, any other real life things.

[1733] So after the Charlottesville incident, I started feeling like, oh, Not the actual incident, but just us talking about it.

[1734] Our mini incident.

[1735] Yes, okay, yes.

[1736] The non -racist Charlottesville incident.

[1737] I thought I got to be really extra diligent about these facts.

[1738] So I fact -checked was Phil Jackson, the coach of Chicago and L .A. That's what you said.

[1739] And he was.

[1740] Yes, yes.

[1741] But I never know what could be wrong.

[1742] Oh, boy, yeah.

[1743] You know?

[1744] Yeah.

[1745] It was.

[1746] And he's a basketball coach.

[1747] Yeah.

[1748] He was also a player.

[1749] Very tall man. Really?

[1750] How tall?

[1751] Seven feet.

[1752] No, no. Six, seven or above.

[1753] Wabi Wobby, do some.

[1754] Six eight.

[1755] There we go.

[1756] Six eight.

[1757] Yeah, he's a monster.

[1758] I've been sitting next to him standing and I was shocked at the height.

[1759] That's so much taller than me. Yes.

[1760] I mean.

[1761] Well, you're 4 .11 plus six eight.

[1762] Tell the people.

[1763] We got to post that video.

[1764] Yeah.

[1765] Monica, really, I got my comeuppance and you are five foot one half inch.

[1766] That's right.

[1767] I was exactly right.

[1768] You were.

[1769] And there's a pretty funny video that Kristen shot while I was measuring you.

[1770] Yeah, we'll post it.

[1771] But just so, just so the people know, I am five feet and a half inch.

[1772] Right.

[1773] So you are one foot seven and a half inches shorter than Coach Phil Jackson.

[1774] Yeah.

[1775] I'd love to see you guys engaged in coyness.

[1776] actual teny.

[1777] I would love, there's nothing I'd like more than to walk in and see you guys in the missionary position.

[1778] So his gigantic body laying on top of your tiny body, I just imagine that your head would be around his chest and your toes would be around his kneecaps.

[1779] Yeah, I think you're right.

[1780] Oh, would that be a sight?

[1781] Oh, boy.

[1782] Oh, boy.

[1783] He was the president of the Knicks, too, for like five seasons.

[1784] Oh, that's great.

[1785] And he also was dating and or married jeans.

[1786] bus daughter of jerry bus the owner of the lakers oh so he swooped in and brought some championships to lakers but he said unfortunately i'm also going to take your daughter as a prize yeah oh wow he probably was happy i guess i was a big age gap how big 20 plus years maybe yeah how short is she one foot two wow yeah no wonder he was attracted to her he's 73 okay jeanie is oh Great opportunity to do some quick math.

[1787] So I'm already ready to minus something.

[1788] Genius 57.

[1789] 57.

[1790] So, 60, so 17 years.

[1791] Is it 16?

[1792] 73 and you guys are really?

[1793] 73 math.

[1794] I just give you the year.

[1795] Oh, you're right.

[1796] You got me. Did it.

[1797] You got me. You said Brody Miller.

[1798] Boadie Miller?

[1799] Yeah.

[1800] I said Brody Miller?

[1801] You said Brody first.

[1802] Then he said Bodie and then you said Bodie.

[1803] And then I caught up.

[1804] Yeah.

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] But people will get mad at me if I don't correct it.

[1807] This fucking name is Bodie Miller.

[1808] On Killing is by Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman.

[1809] Oh, thank you for saying that.

[1810] Yeah.

[1811] Also, interesting that his name is Dave, not David.

[1812] Oh, that is interesting.

[1813] I think so.

[1814] Yeah.

[1815] He's permanently going by Dave, his nickname.

[1816] Well, you know, my dad was David Robert Shepard and my brother's David Robert Shepard.

[1817] Yeah.

[1818] And so what they did is my dad went.

[1819] by Dave and Dave went by David.

[1820] Oh.

[1821] So your dad changed it to Dave once David was born?

[1822] No, he was always Dave and Dave would have probably always been Dave.

[1823] Got it.

[1824] But he went by David for the distinction.

[1825] I think it affected my brother, not my dad.

[1826] My dad's not making any changes.

[1827] Okay.

[1828] You know.

[1829] I want him.

[1830] But do you think that if your dad wrote a book that he would put his name as Dave or David?

[1831] Big Dave.

[1832] I think it would definitely say written by Big Dave.

[1833] Because that was his nickname And A People know Big Dave I wish I knew Big Dave I wish you did too He would have chowed you up He would have eaten you up Sexual attention He would have liked you a lot Yeah Yeah I wish I met him He would have been Probably quite inappropriate With some of his comments And Yeah it would have been Fun to watch That's interesting If he had done that And you were around Would you just What would you do.

[1834] I would be staring at your face reading whether or not you thought it was funny or not.

[1835] And if you thought it was funny, I would laugh encouragingly.

[1836] So he'd be worse.

[1837] And then if I saw that you're uncomfortable, I would say, dad, shut the fuck up.

[1838] Oh, interesting.

[1839] Yeah, it could go either way.

[1840] Well, you know.

[1841] Because I was in this position all the time because he was very forward with with with weight staff at restaurants.

[1842] Right.

[1843] And sometimes they loved it.

[1844] Yeah.

[1845] Like sometimes those, you know, the older gal really got a bang out of being flirted with by him.

[1846] And then sometimes I was like this, I think this gal is not enjoying this.

[1847] Right.

[1848] Yeah.

[1849] And I would say it.

[1850] Yeah.

[1851] That's good.

[1852] It's interesting, though.

[1853] I mean, now at this age, it'd probably be more apparent how I was really feeling.

[1854] Uh -huh.

[1855] But definitely for a long time in life, if somebody made me uncomfortable, I would just laugh and pretend like I really liked it.

[1856] Oh, like you were comfortable.

[1857] Oh, no. That's so misleading.

[1858] How can we know?

[1859] Well, yeah.

[1860] But that, but, you know.

[1861] I know, I know.

[1862] The whole thing is, that's the whole point.

[1863] There's never going to be a solution that works.

[1864] Let's just say that.

[1865] Everything's going to be.

[1866] It's true.

[1867] Why?

[1868] Why?

[1869] Because it's like a lot of people like being flirted with.

[1870] A lot of people don't like being flirted with.

[1871] Some people respond in an encouraging way.

[1872] Some people respond in a very clear stop that way.

[1873] So it's like there's not going to be.

[1874] Well, I think the answer is to just tune into the person you're in front of.

[1875] I know.

[1876] But even if they were, just.

[1877] To your point, you just said if when you were younger, you would have just laughed like it was great.

[1878] You know what?

[1879] That's my issue.

[1880] That wouldn't have been your dad's issue or whoever it was.

[1881] That's on me to say, actually, I'm not crazy about that.

[1882] Yes, but I can see someone making the argument.

[1883] No, it's not your responsibility.

[1884] It's the person who's saying weird stuff to you to just stop it.

[1885] So that's a great point.

[1886] But a lot of people like it.

[1887] I like it.

[1888] I want the 65 year old waitress to say to me, What are you doing, hot stuff?

[1889] What can I get you?

[1890] I love it.

[1891] Right.

[1892] Keep it coming.

[1893] Even if she said you piece ass or you well -hung fucking soldier.

[1894] Any, bring it.

[1895] I think it's fun and exciting.

[1896] I don't feel physically threatened.

[1897] Yeah, because you're not.

[1898] Because I'm six, three.

[1899] Exactly.

[1900] Yes.

[1901] You'd feel safe if I was in your apartment when those loud noises happened, even though you won't say so.

[1902] Yes, I'm in a very different position than someone who's 4 -11 or five foot in one -half inch.

[1903] Oh.

[1904] And, I mean, and did we measure my wingspan?

[1905] No, but we should have.

[1906] You really wanted.

[1907] I just took, I take you at face value.

[1908] You're like, you wanted me to measure, but I'm like, I believe you.

[1909] Okay.

[1910] Because it's exactly five feet and one half inch.

[1911] Yeah.

[1912] Yeah.

[1913] It's perfectly proportional.

[1914] It's a cool trick.

[1915] Yeah, I think it's most people have that.

[1916] No, they don't.

[1917] That's what you're supposed to have.

[1918] It's just like my purity.

[1919] It's not, people are supposed to be pure.

[1920] It's not that common.

[1921] You've got more carried away with the pure thing than I was ever.

[1922] You're saying most people are supposed to be pure.

[1923] I'm saying it's not that common, but it is ideal.

[1924] Tell me, tell me the thing that Hassan was saying.

[1925] Setti?

[1926] Desi.

[1927] D -E -S -I.

[1928] Why is it Desi?

[1929] He told us, and I already forgot because Mindy.

[1930] Oh, you don't know either.

[1931] Mindy, Kaling, for all of our listeners is.

[1932] But we love, and is our most elusive guests we want.

[1933] Yes, and is casting a new show.

[1934] With Indians.

[1935] Yes, and I can't audition.

[1936] Two of them have to have an Indian accent.

[1937] The one that would fit my age bracket has an Indian accent, so I can't audition.

[1938] Because Monica won't do it.

[1939] Well, I can't do it.

[1940] Well, first of all, you can do it.

[1941] No, I can't.

[1942] Let's just, though, let's play this out.

[1943] Okay.

[1944] Let's say that I could teach it to you.

[1945] Let's just say.

[1946] I don't.

[1947] As this hypothetical, let's say you learned it in the next day or two.

[1948] Okay, okay.

[1949] If you learned it and you felt proficient at it, would you do it?

[1950] So I think it's more about that you want it, even if you could do it.

[1951] I think I would just feel, which this is crazy because I know it's acting, but I think it would feel so fraudulent.

[1952] But don't you think the context changes, well, hold on.

[1953] I think it's weirder to assume that a native to India who actually authentically has that accent is going to know all the comedic cues of an American sitcom.

[1954] Right.

[1955] Versus you who gets the American sense of humor.

[1956] Yeah.

[1957] Also, the context is so different.

[1958] It's not a white person writing this show making fun of the accent.

[1959] It's an Indian -American woman writing it.

[1960] So there's got to be zero ethical dilemma.

[1961] No, it's not ethical.

[1962] Then let's learn it.

[1963] No, I can't.

[1964] You can do it.

[1965] I don't want to.

[1966] It's one of the easier ones to do.

[1967] No, it's not.

[1968] It is.

[1969] I don't, I would feel so uncomfortable doing it and then I'd be bad.

[1970] If I'm uncomfortable, you can't be uncomfortable and good when you're acting.

[1971] It's just not what happens.

[1972] When I auditioned for the Cohen Brothers movie, it was for a Swedish guy.

[1973] I have never tried a Swedish accent.

[1974] I don't think I can do it.

[1975] But I sat there watching YouTube clips and I did it over and over again.

[1976] After an hour, I was like, I think I can pull this off, or I'm at least going to try.

[1977] Yeah.

[1978] And by the end of it, I doubt it was a great Swedish accent.

[1979] but I had something going that I locked into that became funny for me. But you do accents and you feel totally comfortable doing them.

[1980] You do them all the time.

[1981] Too comfortable.

[1982] You love doing them.

[1983] I don't.

[1984] Yeah.

[1985] So I can't.

[1986] Anyway, why'd I bring this up?

[1987] Oh, yeah, Desi, because you...

[1988] What if I thought you ought to do the accent and it was like this?

[1989] And I said, no, you sound like you're from Bali.

[1990] But why did I even say Bali?

[1991] I meant New Delhi.

[1992] Oh, God.

[1993] Bally's in Indonesia.

[1994] That's not even in the subcontinent.

[1995] It's not.

[1996] It's not.

[1997] It's not even the right region.

[1998] I noticed you had divert in your eyes.

[1999] I can't look anymore.

[2000] Desi means Rob.

[2001] What if he read us the biography of Desi Arnaz right now?

[2002] I don't even understand.

[2003] Do you feel unethical?

[2004] He was playing in as a white male.

[2005] Maybe he feels bad saying it.

[2006] Dezzi, it's a first thing.

[2007] Desi are the people, cultures, and products of the Indian subcontinent.

[2008] Well, Bangladesh.

[2009] Indian subcontinent.

[2010] India, Pakistan.

[2011] It is often accepted that India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are DESE countries.

[2012] It says, as, Desi is a loose term.

[2013] Countries.

[2014] Wait, they're not saying loose.

[2015] Yeah, sexually loose.

[2016] People from there are loose.

[2017] It's derived from sanskirt.

[2018] Sanskrit, sanskrit.

[2019] It means one from our country.

[2020] Ooh.

[2021] One from our country.

[2022] Usually people from India, Pakistan, or Bangladesh.

[2023] Ooh.

[2024] So, if you know how to speak in an Indian accent and you fit the criteria, you should audition from Indy's show.

[2025] Okay.

[2026] Ryan Hansen could probably audition that.

[2027] Don't do.

[2028] Can I tell you how Andrew Dice Clay would say Bangaladash?

[2029] Yeah.

[2030] Bangaladage.

[2031] Ugh.

[2032] You didn't like it?

[2033] That was so gross.

[2034] I love you.

[2035] Bye.

[2036] I'll see you in Bangladesh.

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