DUBBED: 221 - Symbolic Violins

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Warning, the following episode deals with mature and disturbing themes, including drug use, backyard disasters, and bad parenting.

[2] But listener discretion is not advised, because we dubbed it all out.

[3] Now you can listen to this podcast in front of children, in the car with your mother -in -law, or at a public pool.

[4] Please note, we are not responsible for the quality or content of the Made for TV movies mentioned in this episode.

[5] Enjoy my flip -block.

[6] Dub!

[7] Hello.

[8] Welcome to the whole time.

[9] My favorite murder.

[10] The podcast.

[11] Intanum.

[12] In tandem, splat.

[13] Exactly at the same time.

[14] Exactly.

[15] On exactly at the same time media.

[16] That's right.

[17] That's Karen Kilgareth.

[18] That's George Hartstark.

[19] Hi, how are you?

[20] Coming at you from our individual homes.

[21] As per.

[22] Mm -hmm.

[23] We're not protesting anything.

[24] We're staying home.

[25] You know why?

[26] Because it's just what you're supposed to do when you don't want to get a virus and give it to other people.

[27] The highly deadly virus, no one knows how it works.

[28] Stay home.

[29] And when you scream into the law enforcement faces, it turns out it doesn't help at all.

[30] It hinders, some would say.

[31] Strong start.

[32] We've done it again.

[33] There we go.

[34] I mean, let's just make this a flaming political podcast.

[35] at this point.

[36] How do we talk about anything else?

[37] Oh, man. Well, it's kind of being shoved down our throats all the time.

[38] That's why we do this podcast so you can escape.

[39] This is the escape hatch from that reality into the one we've decided to create.

[40] And you should absolutely be wary of the fact that the escape hatch of reality to make you feel better is a murder podcast.

[41] Yes.

[42] Please know.

[43] Please read the post -it note that we stuck on the.

[44] escape hatch before we went through it first and it says beware all ye who enter here type of thing it's two it's two women talking it's a murder podcast what's a podcast it's one big god forbid so get ready it's one big god forbid that's the best how are you doing with your stability and house and living in it well I mean that all that's fine I did I was, I think yesterday was a breaking point for a lot of people.

[45] I was getting lots of texts like, hey, I'm freaking out, ha, ha, ha, ha.

[46] So tonight, actually, technically, although in our reality, it's two nights away.

[47] Got it.

[48] It's a full moon.

[49] And I think that has an effect on people, especially when you are indoors and you need to be indoors.

[50] Yeah.

[51] So just, I don't know, I would say keep conscious of details like that that might be affecting you.

[52] What does it do?

[53] Turns you into a werewolf?

[54] Well, you know, like every time there's a full moon, like crime in normal times, crime spikes like crazy.

[55] People get a little nuts.

[56] It's like kind of like mercury in retrograde.

[57] I think so.

[58] Only the moon has much more of a true direct scientific.

[59] You know, we're made of water.

[60] The moon affects the tides and our periods and all those things.

[61] Push, pull.

[62] All that.

[63] It's all happening.

[64] Extra pushed, extra pulled this week.

[65] stay aware um so yeah i think there was a little bit of that kind of i had a couple you know we had a couple things we had to get done on the phone that felt like way bigger deals than they normally i almost cried in a business meeting zoom which was so did you did you notice last week when i almost started crying oh i was so embarrassed i was just like get it together no yeah was that when it was just the four of us though yeah yeah our cousin yeah yeah of ladies and i did I thought, okay, I did notice it, but I thought it was something else.

[66] So that I was just kind of like...

[67] That I was getting my period?

[68] No, I remember I said, are you okay?

[69] Oh, yeah.

[70] Yeah.

[71] And you were like, yeah, yeah.

[72] And then I was like, oh, that's, I hope she didn't think that was me being mean.

[73] Oh, no, no, no, no. I was really doing it, but that's the weird part.

[74] And it is, this part is driving me crazy.

[75] It's very difficult.

[76] You and I have almost, I feel.

[77] sometimes a like a psychic connection where I don't have to say a lot of stuff to yes I really don't feel the need to because I know that you're already there I wish you wouldn't I mean I do I know I do a lot but and so it's it's more difficult and it's very frustrating to me to have to podcast with you when there's like say a delay or a thing I don't get that the high of the connection no I mean it's almost like we need to start recording our phone calls because those are so funny and fun and like very but then yeah then it would ruin that and it wouldn't make any sense anymore i know i know it's just it's just an odd like that part of the adjustment those are the things i'm missing and feeling is like when people go like a human connection but there really is that thing where it makes me feel like i am when i feel i am connected to other people yeah it's very important it turns out yeah it is i almost cried the other night thinking of like hugging the first time I'm going to hug someone besides Vince or a cat.

[78] It's going to be so emotional, I feel like, you know, it's just going to feel like, I feel like for the first, it's going to be like when World War II ended for the first friendly couple of weeks.

[79] Everyone's just going to be, you know, basking in these experiences that they haven't been able to do in three years.

[80] Hopefully, just kidding.

[81] We would like to formally apologize for joking that the pandemic would last for three years.

[82] We had no idea we could see the future.

[83] I mean, Yeah, really, when it actually ends up because people won't stop going out.

[84] Anyway, and it ends up lasting for half a decade.

[85] And arresting black people and giving white people masks.

[86] Tickets.

[87] You know, exactly.

[88] The total disparity of justice in this country anyway.

[89] Anywho.

[90] Anyhow.

[91] We promised you this was an escape.

[92] And we're escaping you right to the front page of every newspaper that you've had to read this whole time.

[93] That's right.

[94] The perfect escape.

[95] I will say this.

[96] is how I am escaping.

[97] And I don't know why I found it so soothing.

[98] Scandinavian police procedurals, much like their furniture, are so beautiful.

[99] And there's one, there's a couple I've been watching that I really binged.

[100] One is called The Truth Will Out.

[101] And it's really well done, really well made.

[102] I think that one is on Netflix.

[103] Can't remember.

[104] Everything is either on Netflix or Amazon.

[105] That one is great and the characters are amazing.

[106] So it turns into like it's a cold case team that's kind of rag tag.

[107] Yeah.

[108] Love a rag tag group of anything.

[109] And both so well written, like so realistically, wonderfully well written.

[110] And then this one I just started is called Trapped and it's Icelandic.

[111] And the main guy is this huge.

[112] I mean like let's be honest, he's a bear.

[113] He's like a bear.

[114] He's huge and hairy and has a big beard.

[115] And he's really gruff.

[116] And he is small town, Iceland, trying to solve these murders.

[117] And you're like, maybe I need a move to this town.

[118] For real.

[119] I'm going there the second quarantine is lifted and we're like, it's like, come on.

[120] It's really cool.

[121] And they also, it's the thing where in the middle of a full on foreign procedural, everyone starts speaking English.

[122] When they have to talk to other people, they'll just be speaking English with no accent.

[123] Where you're just like, man, that's cool.

[124] You're like, I'm sorry, but thank you.

[125] Yes.

[126] I really appreciate it.

[127] Could never do it.

[128] I mean, I try to start taking Icelandic language lessons, but I would need the full five years.

[129] That's right.

[130] Oh, God, it's five.

[131] By the time I get there, I'm saying.

[132] Yeah.

[133] When this quarantine is lifting.

[134] And then she gets to move there.

[135] What else do you want to?

[136] I keep seeing a title of a show that I drunkenly wrote down to, um, to recommend and laughing out loud.

[137] Like, it's, it's like, I have, like, Atlanta's missing and murdered on HBO and Evan in the Green River, like, and then just in the middle of it is a show called Flipping 101 on HGTV that I am so obsessed with.

[138] It's so good.

[139] And it's just people redoing houses?

[140] It's this guy, he got, they're losing their Snickers.

[141] It's this guy, Terrick, he had a, he got a divorce from his wife who they had a flipping show.

[142] And so now he kind of gets this, like, short end of the stick show of having to deal with people who have never flipped houses before.

[143] Well, she's going off to, like, marry some dude in Orange County and live in this beautiful house.

[144] And I just pale for this guy so much.

[145] Wait, is that this is that written into the show or it's just like, do you, or you just know that?

[146] If you follow HGTV like we do, then you know.

[147] Okay.

[148] Like, you know who.

[149] And he just, he seems so, I feel so bad for him.

[150] Yeah.

[151] Well, you don't want to be in a famous couple and then break up.

[152] No. And then let's get the short end.

[153] Well, I mean, how do you, yeah, I guess you're right.

[154] If you're, if you're like immediately marry a hot person, she married a hot person, she got pregnant.

[155] She's so beautiful.

[156] They've moved in this huge lovely house and they're like remodeling friends' houses together.

[157] And he just isn't like Alhambra remodeling like the saddest house.

[158] He's got one of those really bad like goatee.

[159] Yeah.

[160] He's grown out of.

[161] divorce goatee that's not working oh my god how many divorce goatees are out there we've seen them where it's just like I get it you're changing it up trying to change something you got to try please note the term divorce goate has been copyrighted by my favorite murder ink and cannot be used without pre -written approval I get it my divorce goatee is 50 pounds so guess what no judgment do your thing divorce goatee is different it's all different and there's no judging comfort yourself however you can, whether it's horrible facial hair or nonstop mac and cheese, do your thing.

[162] Yeah.

[163] I mean, these days, here's something that isn't really anything I recommend per se, because it might not be interesting to anybody else, but sometimes at night, because I don't want to go anywhere and I don't want to introduce anything new into my household.

[164] So I'll just make myself like a cassidia or something very basic with my basic culinary skills.

[165] But then I just read postmates.

[166] Like, I'll just see what restaurants are still open in my neighborhood.

[167] It's one of my favorite hobbies.

[168] It really is where I'm like, I would get this and this.

[169] And then I just, like, close it all.

[170] Shut it, just shut it down.

[171] Scrolling postmates?

[172] Sometimes I open it and I'm like, ooh, what's new?

[173] Like, what's new in my neighborhood?

[174] Even though I'm not going to.

[175] No. I know all the neighborhoods.

[176] I know all the restaurants in my neighborhood.

[177] I know most of them by heart.

[178] And it was very scary and very, you can kind of, it's a real measuring stick postmates because, you know, a week after the quarantine was announced, A ton of restaurants just went off entirely.

[179] And then you're just like, oh, no, I hope those come back.

[180] And, you know, getting so worried.

[181] Then there's all those restaurants that got super creative.

[182] And they're, like, want us to send you a bunch of flour and bread and sugar?

[183] We can't.

[184] Totally.

[185] And there's like a biscuit window near one of the places near my house where they just, like, make different kinds of biscuit sandwiches.

[186] And it's just like, just go up to the, yeah.

[187] Oh, I'm selling my house and moving into yours.

[188] Hello.

[189] So creative.

[190] Yeah.

[191] That's a great idea.

[192] Yeah.

[193] All the pantry items.

[194] hot luck i know it's super cool there's so many places it's that that thing too where i'm kind sometimes i'm scrolling going what if i made something yeah it's like you're not going to but then it's or what if i got a full of italian family dinner like what if i got just wall -to -wall carbs in here and then i'm like close the window oh man vince almost Vince was doing like an order um on Costco and he was like i got this i got that i got and then he said i have i got i got ravioli lasagna and I was like hold up what so instead of the lasagna um pasta sheets it's just ravioli so it's like double timing it's double the pleasure double the fun front back front back these are the times we're living in to remember get it yeah eat it eat ravioli lasagna like I mean how do you not how do you not turn to pasta in days like how do you not go that's the solution all the all rules are off here which is fun and nice and kind of teaching me like a better way you know like just don't eat all the bread but you can have bread but you can have bread have really nice nicely made bread not and really enjoy it don't like beat yourself up while you're eating it totally i what i'm doing is it as a small celebration for myself is using a very large cereal bowl oh it's too smart have you done that where you're just like, this is easily three bowls of cereal, but let's see what happens.

[195] No, that I, how have I, I've eaten three bowls of cereal in a row, but I've never in my life thought to get a bigger bowl of cereal.

[196] Like that's somehow not allowed in my life.

[197] It shouldn't be normally, but now it is.

[198] And it is now.

[199] It is now.

[200] I love it.

[201] You know, this has taught me two things about myself.

[202] One is that I don't want to bake bread and I never want to bake bread and I have no stuff in the interest in baking bread, even though everyone's baking bread.

[203] bread how though that whole thing of starting your the wheat there's sourdough starter and yeast and it's alive it's just like they call it a mother yeah out of here to put flour everywhere it's like and it tells you to make a mess you touch it so much touch flour you put it on this you add more flour keep rolling flower and it's disgusting your whole hand inside it you make sure your hand gets all over it that's right all bread all bread is 50 % someone's palm sweat.

[204] Oh, God.

[205] Yeah.

[206] Now eat you're filthy.

[207] I'd rather not be mine, I guess.

[208] And also that puzzle, I have no interest in puzzles.

[209] And I flopping.

[210] Tried.

[211] I got a puzzle of like my favorite photo of me and Vince.

[212] We're both taking swigs of beer on stage at the same time.

[213] So it's just like a can of PBR and both of our faces.

[214] Got it made it as a puzzle.

[215] Literally poured everything out and was like, I don't want to do this.

[216] Now, can I just give you a tiny bit of puzzle?

[217] guidance to take or leave?

[218] Please.

[219] I have no interest.

[220] When we do calls that are not Zoom calls, that's all I'm doing, baby.

[221] Puzzle time.

[222] I need to.

[223] There's no, I should be into it.

[224] But, and however, yeah.

[225] And still, okay.

[226] You know what also it is?

[227] Sometimes, and you have to have this experience maybe to really have it start feeling like it's paying off.

[228] But sometimes I just stare at the puzzle for a really long time.

[229] And then I'll just pick up a piece and put it in immediate like it feels like puzzle psychic ability and that's what keeps me coming back for more because suddenly I think I have this idea in my head I'm good well that is what's cool just cross my mind that you can get better at puzzles it's not just like you're always going to suck as bad as you suck at puzzles it's like your skills get better and better yeah and it's a little it's almost like can you face this reminds me of like I can do puzzles now because of I think the fact that I'm middle -aged and like in a place in my life where I'm actively practicing like patients and things that I have never been able to even approach before.

[230] And it reminds me of like when I was in my late 20s on speed at like Buffalo Exchange, watching the girl that worked there go through someone's garbage bag filled with clothes and she would take something out, look at it and then fold it.

[231] And she just very slowly where I was standing there going like, oh my god if I had to do that like I was flipping out like how are you doing this and how are you doing it so calmly and why do you like it and this is awful it's like zen almost where she's just like this is like origami or something where it's just right you have to make sense of it not on speech right help right oh that's everything speaking of um it took me 20 years to realize that birthdays do you want to talk about your birthday do you have we can cut this out speaking of birthday I feel like everyone who's having a birthday in during this time, we now will understand what it's like for kids who have their birthdays during the summer.

[232] Which is why I have an idea to have a birthday blowout for everybody who has a quarantine birthday won the quarantine end.

[233] That's a great.

[234] Everyone in the world will all just.

[235] I mean, we'll see who I feel comfortable giving my address to.

[236] But for the most part, we'll have all the like all the birthdays where we're going to get stuck indoors and we'll just have.

[237] have a kind of a someone just pulled into my driveway Oh no no they're only turning around I pull out a rifle I like the idea of like a party that might go all weekend long Oh yeah you can stay here You can get a room at the hotel down the street But like let's just do it Bring your dog and like Let's hang out Can people bring your dogs?

[238] Build a dog park in the back yeah Do you know I get like I get like disappointed in a visceral level when I find out there's not any pets at the party I'm going to, you know?

[239] That means there's no escape hatch for you.

[240] That's right.

[241] That's right.

[242] All right.

[243] I know.

[244] What else do you have?

[245] Oh, can I, no, I just ask you a question.

[246] What else?

[247] I'm going to let you answer it.

[248] No, go ahead.

[249] I don't think I have anything else.

[250] I just.

[251] Are you going to do a podcast?

[252] No. Oh, yeah.

[253] I can.

[254] Go ahead.

[255] Do it.

[256] Do it.

[257] You go first.

[258] Oh, that's what I was going to.

[259] I was going to recommend, and I know I've recommended it before, but my favorite, one of my favorite podcasters, who is a, I think a clinical psychologist and a Buddhist teacher, Tara Brock, she's doing a series now, and it's called Sheltering in Love.

[260] And it's all about dealing with the feelings of being in quarantine and the frustrations that come out of it and the feelings that come up and kind of how to hang.

[261] And it's very, she's really good.

[262] I think she started it, you know, four, three, I guess seven weeks ago.

[263] She started it when this happened.

[264] Who knows?

[265] But there's now like five or six episodes of it.

[266] And it's just really helpful.

[267] Like I get up in the morning and as I'm doing, you know, the dishes are doing kind of things around the house.

[268] I stick it in and it's just a really nice level set.

[269] So if anyone's looking for, if anyone feels a little spinny or like my thoughts are taking over, oh, I think this or I think that or whatever.

[270] You're targeting me right now.

[271] I'm pointing in your face with my words.

[272] It's just, I find it so helpful.

[273] Yeah, she's incredible.

[274] She's just one of the best.

[275] Speaking of, I finally started listening to Unlocking us with Brunee Brown.

[276] And I, you know, I started and it's like, I know everything she says and then, of course, I listened to the first few seconds of an episode and burst into tears, which doesn't shucking happen to me. What's you talking about?

[277] It was, let me see, hold on one second.

[278] Oh, it was, okay, so it was the episode, Dr. Mark Brackett, who does studies, emotions and teaches us, like, how to feel.

[279] And he said something that happened in his childhood and how hard it was as a kid to, like, understand what's going on.

[280] Feelings started crying.

[281] And then there's another episode that I really love called, that's just her talking.

[282] It's called, it's just Brune on anxiety, calm, and over underfunctioning.

[283] and it's just a 30 minute episode and you just like learn so much and everything makes sense.

[284] She started calling like your family that you were born into.

[285] She calls it your first family and that just calmed me in so many ways where it's like that's not your chosen family.

[286] That is the first family that you were born into and then you get a move on from that if you want.

[287] And that's just like I really stuck with me. And also you're the family that you are born into your family, your first family or whatever you want to call it, is also, I always compared my family to every family on TV.

[288] And because I did that, did you think I was going to say every other family around?

[289] Yeah.

[290] Oh, yeah, no. I was always doing it to TV.

[291] That's, wow.

[292] Yeah.

[293] So then I would be like, I remember one time in like, you know, fourth grade when I was like trying to confront my mom about that fact she had a job and she wasn't waiting at home when I got home from school to give me cookies or whatever.

[294] and she like like you know Mrs. Cunningham or whatever like any TV mom and she just literally she was like are you kidding me like it was like this thing of like what are you talking about like I have to work to pay for your stuff yeah you know and I mean like that's not real but I just because that's the idea you start getting these ideas in your head as a kid and if no one if no one interrupts and goes yeah that's not realistic that's pretty much everybody's mom has to you know either work or the the job of being at home is work yeah no one's no one's sitting there with their hair done and a bunch of lipstick on going honey it means you kidding yeah it's very rare very rare yeah tv yeah that's I did I did that with 902 and relationships until I was like 20 where I was like this is how relationships are supposed to be so dramatic and red flag tumultuous and then I was like oh you're just modeling after Brendan and Dylan and Brenda.

[295] Brenda, yeah.

[296] Yeah.

[297] It's Shannon Doherty, friend of the pod.

[298] Shannon Doherty.

[299] Love you, girl.

[300] Hi.

[301] Shannon Doherty.

[302] My sister, we saw her at the Beverly Center the first time my sister came to visit me. I know I told you the story.

[303] But the first time my sister came to visit me when I moved to Los Angeles, we went to the Beverly Center and we were walking around and Shannon Dordy walked by and my sister's the only one who saw her.

[304] I didn't even see her.

[305] That's such a bummer.

[306] And my sister looked over at her and she gave my sister a huge smile.

[307] Like I think my sister had the like deer in the headlights.

[308] Like holy frankers, because it was prime 90210.

[309] Yeah.

[310] And she gave my sister this huge lovely smile like super nice.

[311] And then she, my sister's like, oh my God, she had an or did he just smile at me. I'm like, well, shark week.

[312] That's what sisters do.

[313] Actually, that's the person I've been texting the most during this time and like connecting with the most, which is really nice.

[314] My sister?

[315] No, mine.

[316] Although I did have a, I did talk to your sister on text.

[317] Did you?

[318] She texts me and I, yeah, we text a little bit.

[319] My dad and your, and, uh, no, wait, your dad and my husband have texts a little bit just to check in.

[320] That's the, that's the love of a lifetime.

[321] Definitely.

[322] I'm not surprised that my dad texts Vince because he asked me how Vince is, I would say every other phone call where I'm just like, I mean, this is sexism, A. Yeah.

[323] And then B, what the, like, just ask him yourself if you're so interested.

[324] You know, this is a fabulous lumberjack at this point.

[325] That beard, it's like the third person in our quarantine now.

[326] It is majestic.

[327] I've asked him if I could put flowers in it and take a photo.

[328] It's like, I want to see a picture.

[329] Okay, I can see it.

[330] I'll send it to you.

[331] We can post it or I'll take, put flowers in it.

[332] It's pretty special.

[333] Is it long?

[334] It's robust.

[335] Oh, yeah.

[336] It's like going wide.

[337] Yeah.

[338] and there's like all it's like gray and there's red hair and there's whatever I'm not I don't need to talk about my husband's beard oh speaking of sounds like you like him just speaking of my dad so apparently I don't know if you've heard about this but Britney Spears um has a home gym um and she made a video on Instagram a couple days ago telling everybody that she left some candles burning in her home gym And, well, basically, she burned her home Jen down.

[339] What?

[340] Yes.

[341] I didn't hear that.

[342] Yeah.

[343] And so people have been tweeting me the video and going, what would Jim think of this?

[344] Oh, yeah.

[345] And going, like, we need to know Jim's response.

[346] So I actually called my dad.

[347] Oh, my God.

[348] Oh, my God.

[349] I called him.

[350] And I'm like, Dad, you're going to have to hang in there.

[351] Now, here's a problem.

[352] My dad lost one of his hearing aids somewhere during the quarantine.

[353] So he's still waiting for it to be mailed to him.

[354] Okay.

[355] So it takes a while to explain.

[356] It's like where I'm like, Dad, do you remember the 90s pop star?

[357] It took a while.

[358] Then he's finally like, all right, okay.

[359] And then it gets mad at you because he's like, yeah, I know what you're talking about.

[360] I've been explaining it to you.

[361] Yeah.

[362] And it takes so long that he thinks I just want him to acknowledge that she exists.

[363] And then he changes the subject where I'm like, no, there's a story.

[364] So I love to him.

[365] Dad, dad, she left two candles burning and basically burned down her home to him.

[366] And I can't, this isn't something I can respond, explain to people on Twitter.

[367] So I figured I would save it till now because he went, and had this loud Santa Claus laugh.

[368] I can't even do it correctly.

[369] It sounds joyous.

[370] It sounds joyous.

[371] He loved it.

[372] He thought it was hilarious where it's like, now that he's retired, the job is so far in the past.

[373] He can, I think, be more lighthearted about, he thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard.

[374] That seems really hard to do.

[375] Like, I think, like, these days, candles are made in such a way where it's, unless you put it under a curtain, yes.

[376] It's hard to light Chicago on fire with them.

[377] And we're going to get a bunch of messages telling me that's not flipping.

[378] True.

[379] And I totally agree.

[380] And I know.

[381] I mean, but I think there's in some ways, well, people are at least looking toward that a little bit more these days as candlemakers.

[382] But clearly there's a large chunk of that story that's missing on Brittany's part.

[383] that it's like and like so how many days did they burn like what are you talking about that two candles brought down your home gym yeah and who works out to candlelight is another question I have like that doesn't you're on the elliptical like sipping wine to yeah and some richard marks playing in the background cool home gym a romantic workout hey home gym that's your dad's podcast hey oh and then a So I explained to him that people were asking what he thought about that on Twitter.

[384] And then he just went, I got fans.

[385] I got fans.

[386] Jim.

[387] We're big fans.

[388] Home Jim.

[389] Home Jim.

[390] That's him during the quarantine.

[391] Is that it?

[392] Okay, sorry.

[393] Oh, no. That was the best story.

[394] I wish you had led with that was incredible.

[395] I wish it had been different.

[396] I don't exactly right.

[397] That's our podcast network that we started.

[398] And we have, of course, the new podcasts are bananas.

[399] And I said no gifts with Bridger Wyniger, which was in Oprah.

[400] Oprah magazine.

[401] Oprah!

[402] Guys, congratulations to Bridger.

[403] That is.

[404] Oprah picked you, Bridger.

[405] It's like his first month or two of podcasting.

[406] And it's in Oprah already.

[407] Yes.

[408] It's very cool.

[409] We just found out before pressing record that if you go, to like iTunes and search exactly right all the podcasts that are on our network come up and then some so you can check out what's going on oh I have a really quick corrections corner yeah I said in the miniso this week this week I pronounced a city wrong shockingly really yeah uh New Hampshire town is pronounced Nashua not Nashaw County or now Nashua Nashua sorry about that guys New Hampshire?

[410] Yes.

[411] I mean, we need a corrections corner for next week, so I might as well.

[412] We really do.

[413] This is called Creating Content.

[414] That's how you do it.

[415] We took a class.

[416] We took a class in influencing.

[417] An amazing class at Santa Monica City College.

[418] Ow.

[419] Okay.

[420] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[421] Absolutely.

[422] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[423] Exactly.

[424] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[425] But did you know that they also power in -person sales?

[426] That's right.

[427] Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in store, on social media, and beyond.

[428] Give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[429] From accepting payments to managing inventory, they have everything you need to sell in person.

[430] So give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[431] Their sleek, reliable POS hardware takes every major payment method and looks fabulous at the same time.

[432] With Shopify, we have a powerful partner for managing our sales, and if you're a business owner, you can too.

[433] Connect with customers in line and online.

[434] Do retail right with Shopify.

[435] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[436] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[437] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today.

[438] That's shopify .com slash murder.

[439] Goodbye.

[440] Do you know what story I'm going to do this week?

[441] Tell me. I'm going to do the rescue of baby Jessica McClure.

[442] Starbucks.

[443] Going back to the 80.

[444] Oh, good one.

[445] How have we not done that great one?

[446] Well, it's really out of the, it's well, underline, italicize.

[447] It's out of the normal true crime milieu, I would say.

[448] Yeah.

[449] But I was, you know, we were talking about where I was like, we can just do what we would like to talk about.

[450] We don't have to be so, we don't have to adhere.

[451] And then once I got into it, as always happens, once you start reading articles, there is an unbelievable article by a writer named Lisa Belkin that was written in 1995 for the New York Times.

[452] And it's called Death on the CNN Curve.

[453] And I recommend any, everybody read this article.

[454] It is an unbelievable expose about this time in the late 80s.

[455] So I guess CNN started in 1980.

[456] It didn't really start making money until 1985.

[457] So before that, it was just this kind of, it was almost like C -SPAN.

[458] It was 24 -hour news that no one watched.

[459] It was really boring and dull.

[460] And it was just for, I don't even know, I don't know what was for it.

[461] But then, you know, mid to late 80s, it started gaining a little bit of traction.

[462] And this baby Jessica's story is one of the things that started kicking off the 24 -hour news cycle.

[463] Disasters.

[464] People are just so interested in disasters.

[465] Right.

[466] But this was, yeah, I mean, we, if anyone relates, it's this team.

[467] I'm not shaming anyone right here, yeah.

[468] But it's just fascinating because before this time, and it's so difficult for a lot of people who weren't around for this.

[469] And it's odd to even think about now, like, there's this time in the, like, late 70s, early 80s where nothing was branded.

[470] Like, there wasn't stuff, brands of things sticking up all over.

[471] You didn't have, there wasn't that brand awareness.

[472] It would just be like, if there was a calendar on the wall, it would just be a willow tree.

[473] You know what I mean?

[474] It was just, you would, do it.

[475] People just had a brown couch, a brown plaid couch and shag carpeting.

[476] Yeah.

[477] You buy your couch from Sears or JCPenney.

[478] Or it's just the couch that was there when you moved into the house.

[479] Like, it was, there was this real brown, low -key aspect of life.

[480] Nothing, nothing was sexy.

[481] Nothing was, nothing was being advertised toward any demographic.

[482] It was all very kind of.

[483] If it was, it was like rich people.

[484] So it was like out of our eye shot.

[485] Or it was, yeah, or it was aspirational like the Bandes Soleil commercial.

[486] It was like the lady diving into the pool.

[487] You'll never be here by Band de Soleil.

[488] Right.

[489] I love that commercial anyway.

[490] So this is kind of about the time.

[491] where the 24 -hour news cycle began to take off.

[492] And then I think that's another reason why I was kind of went, ooh, this would be good to talk about now.

[493] Yeah.

[494] Because now we are in this world where we're so used to it and we're so used to just getting constant information and kind of being left to the mercy of the 24 -hour news cycle, whether or not we're choosing to participate in it.

[495] It's a barrage.

[496] Yeah.

[497] Well, you know, but I was going to say this because at the end of the episode before the live show that we posted two weeks ago, I did say something about the news is trying to scare you.

[498] And there was a couple reporters that tweeted at me like they were upset about it, which it was like what I meant was the people who decide what goes on the news.

[499] Because I was absolutely wrong to say that in terms of how many journalists are out there, you know, risking it all to tell important stories and get the facts.

[500] And also, especially these days, there's so many feel good stories and stories about people caring about each other and connect.

[501] with each other.

[502] So I did misspeak and I kind of used the language of the people who want to attack the media and I should have thought that through better.

[503] So I do apologize.

[504] But I more meant the people who decide what we ingest as news, which is not, it goes way above all the people who are trying to report the news and keep us all in for.

[505] It's the shareholders that decide what's allowed.

[506] It's the six billionaires that run a political, baby.

[507] Trump.

[508] So.

[509] Okay.

[510] Excuse me. I scared Elvis.

[511] Yes.

[512] We obviously...

[513] You broke up with your boyfriend?

[514] We obviously...

[515] We wouldn't have a podcast if it weren't for these incredible journalists who do so much insane, wonderful work that we then, you know...

[516] Regurgitate.

[517] Condense and regurgitate.

[518] And we are so grateful for that.

[519] And in my wildest dreams, I would be a journalist.

[520] I mean, truly.

[521] And, yeah, true crime journalists, true crime writers.

[522] Like, yes, we would not be here without.

[523] them.

[524] So my apologies to anyone that was offended.

[525] Yeah.

[526] And that's why we up top before our stories give credits because we know it's so important.

[527] Entirely.

[528] So this, you know, story I'm about to tell you, I was going to tell you the version that I kind of experienced.

[529] And then I read Lisa Belkin's article, which was kind of about the full experience, not just what happened directly after the rescue, but then the effect that had and the effect the fame had and the effect the fact that the world could see this, the world could see what happened in Midland, Texas, this tiny little town.

[530] Like, I mean, it's, it, and it, at a time where it hadn't really happened that much before.

[531] So, this was one of the first times that it happened.

[532] It's really fascinating.

[533] So, anyway.

[534] So it is October 14th, 1987.

[535] I'm 17.

[536] My eyebrows are flourishing in a way.

[537] It looks like two huge black cattle pillars have crawled onto my forehead.

[538] and made a home for themselves.

[539] Oh, 17 -year -old Karen, what I wouldn't give to just like hang out, just like carpool somewhere with her, just have a chat.

[540] And she would have done it if you had some California coolers in the backseat.

[541] She would be down to clown.

[542] Yeah.

[543] Big hoop earrings, California coolers, 1987.

[544] Amazing.

[545] So, but now we're in Midland, Texas.

[546] We're not a pedduma, California.

[547] We're in Midland, Texas.

[548] And it's the morning of October 14th, 1987.

[549] An 18 -year -old Reba, her nickname is Sissy McClure.

[550] She's at her sister Jamie's house at 3309 Tanner Drive in Midland.

[551] And Jamie has a daycare that she runs out of her home.

[552] And so Sissy's there with like five kids, one of whom is her 18 -month -old daughter, Jessica.

[553] So all the kids are out in the backyard and Sissy's out there with them playing.

[554] And then the phone rang so she runs inside to grab it.

[555] And while she's inside on the phone, she hears all the kids scream.

[556] So she runs back outside and all the kids are standing around a pipe that is three inches coming three inches up out of the ground and only eight inches in diameter.

[557] And her 18 -month -old daughter has fallen down this pipe.

[558] It's a mother's worst nightmare and she's standing in it and freaking out, of course.

[559] Oh, my God.

[560] She can hear her daughter.

[561] I believe she can hear her daughter crying.

[562] Oh, I will also say that there's a TV movie that was made in, I believe, 1990, starring Patty Duke and Bow Bridges.

[563] It's called Everybody's Baby, the Jessica McClure story.

[564] So in that, the mother hears her crying, but I don't know if that's factual.

[565] That's just what happened in the TV movie.

[566] Okay.

[567] So I just, we don't know how deep it is yet.

[568] We'll find out.

[569] The well?

[570] Yeah.

[571] We will.

[572] Okay.

[573] Evanch.

[574] Got it.

[575] Okay.

[576] So she, of course, runs back in, calls the police.

[577] They're there in three minutes.

[578] And basically, they come to find out that this pipe is basically leading down to an abandoned well.

[579] Oh, Flake.

[580] So it's very deep, just so you know.

[581] Yeah.

[582] So the first police officer on the scene is 32 -year -old Bobby Joe Hall, BJ, is his nickname.

[583] Bobby Joe.

[584] Bobby Joe.

[585] Bobby Joe.

[586] Everybody got a nickname.

[587] in Midland.

[588] Bobby Joe B .J. Hall comes to the front door.

[589] Sissy gets there.

[590] She is, of course, out of her mind.

[591] She just keeps saying over and over, I can't let my baby die.

[592] I got to get her out.

[593] So Officer Hall assures Sissy that they're going to save Jessica.

[594] He tries to look down this shaft to see her, but it's too dark.

[595] He can't see anything.

[596] He calls out her name a few times.

[597] There's no response at first.

[598] Then he can hear faint crying.

[599] So they know she's alive.

[600] My God.

[601] Paramedics show up at the same time as the police, so the paramedics are back there with them.

[602] They start pumping oxygen down into the opening.

[603] Okay.

[604] As more first responders arrive on the scene, someone comes up with an idea to lower a microphone that's attached to a flashlight down into the shaft so they can hear her.

[605] So they're calling out to her.

[606] They wait to hear her respond.

[607] Then they hear her, you know, make sounds back, and they can figure out from the length of the microphone.

[608] that she's 22 feet down this well.

[609] Mother of Pearl.

[610] Yeah.

[611] Way the funnel cake underground.

[612] Yeah.

[613] So after that they, a little while after that, they figure out a way to lower a video camera down into the well.

[614] And so they can see like how she's down there because they don't understand.

[615] And essentially they lower it down.

[616] They get this kind of side view.

[617] And she has fallen down.

[618] So it's in the diameter is eight inch, eight inches of this pipe.

[619] How big is that?

[620] What's that like?

[621] Eight inches is less than a foot.

[622] So it's like if 12 inches is a foot.

[623] Uh -huh.

[624] Like that.

[625] Yeah.

[626] Take a deep breath and repeat after me. I like myself.

[627] I love myself.

[628] I forgive myself.

[629] It's like, it's basically like that.

[630] It's tiny.

[631] Like it's a big huge pipe, but tiny for a child to fall into.

[632] There's no wriggle.

[633] room for her and all.

[634] Not at all.

[635] And in fact, what they realize when the video goes down there is that she's stuck with her right leg up and pinned to the wall and her left leg down.

[636] So she's kind of in the splits a little bit.

[637] Oh, baby.

[638] Yes.

[639] I know.

[640] So the Midland fire and police departments, they work together.

[641] They come up with this plan and they're like, we have to dig a second shaft next to this well and then tunnel across and then get in access and get her out that way.

[642] way.

[643] So the city of Midland gets a backhoe over there.

[644] They tear down the neighbor's fences.

[645] And this is a funny thing too.

[646] So it's a very, this neighborhood is very kind of like lower middle class.

[647] Like the houses, the houses all look like my old house.

[648] It's just like a basic two bedroom house.

[649] You know what I mean?

[650] Like all these houses are little square little houses.

[651] They went up in the 70s and they're in they.

[652] Yeah.

[653] And they're like with five foot fences in the backyard.

[654] So if you stood in your backyard, you could see.

[655] to your neighbor's backyard, like, hey, what's up?

[656] It's not like big till eight foot fences is like that.

[657] But they're like, they have to come in and like knock people's fences down, get this backhoe in there.

[658] They start to dig down two or three feet and then they hit basically bedrock, like really hard rock.

[659] They've realized that they're going to need something with more power.

[660] It's not a backhoe isn't going to do it.

[661] So they bring it, luckily they're in Midland, Texas, which was like an oil town big time.

[662] So there's all kinds of like, you know, drilling for oil type of.

[663] places.

[664] You know what we.

[665] Everyone knows what we mean.

[666] We're from California.

[667] A drill in a little place.

[668] You know.

[669] They're everywhere and all the drills.

[670] Like all they have, yeah, all this heavy equipment is around town because of that.

[671] Luckily.

[672] Texans know what we're talking about.

[673] They know and they relate.

[674] And hey, what's up, Texas?

[675] You've always supported us.

[676] Thank you.

[677] Okay.

[678] So they bring in what's called a rat hole rig, which they usually use to drill holes to sink telephone poles.

[679] Okay.

[680] so even even using heavy machinery it takes hours and basically if like as the hours passed this backyard is starting to fill up with firemen policemen paramedics volunteers people who are hearing there's a little girl trapped and people saying okay well i have this rig and i i used to work at this you know like all these people that no no drilling and they're showing up to help so the whole backyard is starting to fill up with people and one of those people is 36 year old police detective Andy Glasscock and he's actually going to spend the next 72 hours essentially laying on his belly on the ground next to this opening calling down to Jessica and getting her to respond to him to make sure that she's still alive.

[681] He's like the hostage negotiator but but in a positive but in a sweet way.

[682] Yes he's the baby hostage and the hostage taker is the well the baby down the well whisperer.

[683] so he's a dad himself so he's saying that like he's calling down making her say stuff back to him and so he's he said after a while he could tell what her mood was so she would switch between angry huffs or pained whimpers or cooing um and they could she would answer 80 % of the time but in the 20 % when she wouldn't respond of course everyone would get super nervous yeah then they would say oh maybe she's sleeping or she's just really exhausted and then andy would go yell down the pipe.

[684] What does a kitten go?

[685] How does a kitten go?

[686] And then they'd hear meow.

[687] Oh, my God.

[688] Right?

[689] That's the saddest.

[690] Oh.

[691] And at one point...

[692] Kids can't not respond to what does whatever go.

[693] Yes.

[694] They're trained.

[695] By 18 months, all American children are trained to tell you what every animal, what every sound every animal makes.

[696] Oh.

[697] At one point, they pause in the drilling.

[698] and it's really quiet and then they can all because the microphones down there they can all hear her singing Winnie the Pooh Winnie the poo to herself She's comforting herself She's comforting herself And I'm editorializing here But I imagine all those big strong Texan men Lost their shit Absolutely And in a very strong manly Texan way cried or brushed a single tear off And then got mad And demanded that someone bring them coffee What up.

[699] Awesome stuff.

[700] Wow.

[701] Okay.

[702] So now October 14th, 1987 is actually a very big news day.

[703] So a U .S. flag tanker is hit by a missile in Kuwait.

[704] First Lady Nancy Reagan is actually hospitalized for breast cancer.

[705] And the Dow Jones drops more than 100 points that day.

[706] But none of those stories capture America's attention the way baby Jessica being stuck in the well does.

[707] And that's mainly due to the fact that CNN is covering it non.

[708] stop.

[709] Yeah.

[710] I said this already a little bit beforehand, but it had been running for seven years at that point, but this is only the second time they or any station covered a story live around the clock.

[711] The first one was a year earlier when the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded.

[712] Right.

[713] And this story was just as big, but in this way of that it still had an inkling of hope.

[714] Yeah.

[715] So CNN has reporters live on the scene almost immediately, and they keep their cameras are like rolling on this backyard during for this rescue mission nonstop the entire time and everyone is glued to the TV millions and millions and millions of Americans did seven -year -old Georgia was sweaty watching for sure 17 year old karen was drinking in a field but her heart was with the family no i saw it all um so other news networks pick up the story and this backyard becomes it's a media frenzy so when as reporters show up neighbors are letting news cameraman like because first of all the backyard fills up entirely that Jamie's backyard fills up yeah then the neighbors are letting news cameraman into their backyards that are surrounding right and they're sitting on ladders in neighbors backyards with their cameras so they can get the shot above everything else and then that becomes kind of the surrounding out belt line and so and that those spots are like coveted news spots because those are all the people that have the shot you know what I mean so it's and it's like ringing it so all these guys are sitting up and then they need somebody to go down and like hold the ladder it was all it was all like jostling for space it was like a really big deal Midlands local TV station KMID TV they start getting calls from all around the world for people asking for updates on Jessica's rescue mission sinkhole.

[716] So the places that didn't have CNN or couldn't do it, people are just calling in, like hearing about it.

[717] Okay, so it takes this, the rescue team, six hours to dig the first parallel shaft.

[718] Now it's nighttime, it's getting dark.

[719] The whole world is on the edge of their seats.

[720] And everyone is, everyone is just scared to death.

[721] Will they get to her in time?

[722] And do we know who coined baby Jessica, or it just kind of became the name of I think it just became it I don't know I didn't find anything that said that but it was me I take credit took her first sip of her first Byrdleson James and then turned to her friend and said I'm calling her baby she's my baby suddenly I have a Texan accent for no reason and also it's not really Texan okay so here's what I love the Midland Police chief and the Midland Fire Chief both know they don't have enough experience for a rescue that's this this important and this you know complicated delicate yeah and complicated so they reach out to a man named David Lilly who's a special investigator with the US mine safety and health administration in New Mexico he's originally from West Virginia and he grew up in a family of minors so he has extensive experience and knowledge in underground recovery work so So they fly David Lilly out to Midland and basically interview him on the spot and immediately realize he is, he knows his stuff, he's the guy.

[723] And so now David Lilly is in charge of this rescue operation.

[724] So by the time he gets there, this parallel shaft has been dug 29 feet deep down.

[725] It's 30 inches wide.

[726] And they're actually starting to dig a horizontal tunnel across to where.

[727] they know Jessica is stuck.

[728] But then David realizes there's a problem with the tunnel's trajectory because if they, they've, they've made it so they're aiming right for where she is, but that would mean they would have to break the wall in on her.

[729] Right.

[730] And so he's like, no, no, no, we have to dig down even further and then, and then tunnel across and up.

[731] So he rerouted them.

[732] So basically the tunnel will connect two feet below where Jessica is stuck.

[733] Okay.

[734] So he also notices the dig team is using weak drill bits, which makes them have to stop and resharpen over and over.

[735] And it takes up way too much time.

[736] So he gets them built drill bits made of tungsten carbide.

[737] And they drill for longer and so they don't have to stop or do anything.

[738] And he would later explain his strategy saying, quote, our strategy was that we would drill a series of holes in a square about 24 inches across and 18 inches down.

[739] and the holes would be no more than two inches apart.

[740] And then we would take a 45 -pound jackhammer, also with a tungsten bit, and hold it there to knock out the rock.

[741] And we were going about an inch an hour.

[742] It was terribly hard rock.

[743] And it was slow going because you had to lie down on your stomach holding a 45 -pound jackhammer in front of you.

[744] Holy Snickers.

[745] But I've never seen more dedicated people.

[746] That quotes from people mag.

[747] So the next day is October 15th, and the team finally reaches the wall of the well.

[748] But the rock around the well is even harder.

[749] So in order to drill through that, they have to use a high pressure water jet cutting.

[750] But finally, they do break through.

[751] But the entryway they make is really small.

[752] There's a local roofing contractor named Ron Short, and he comes to volunteer to help because he was born without collarbones.

[753] And so he can, like, basically fold in his shoulders, yep, and basically fit into cramped spaces.

[754] Yes.

[755] So he's there.

[756] I mean, this is what the people of this spot into, in like Midland, but all around.

[757] People show up and they're just like, hey, there's a, in this, in Lisa Belkin's article, she says, there's a contortionist that shows up from Dallas.

[758] It's like, what can I do?

[759] Oh, my God.

[760] Like, people are just like, we want to.

[761] yeah we want to help um but uh they don't know how badly baby jesskas hurt right and they know that moving her could potentially make it worse so they finally decide that a midland firefighter with paramedic training named robert o'donnell um it should be the one that goes down into this shaft so this is actually going to be a full quote um from lisa belkin's article death on the cnn curve of quote.

[762] At noon on the third day, the drillers stopped.

[763] The reporters clung to their ladders and everybody watched as O'Donnell with a mining light strapped to his head was lowered by a cable harness down the shaft.

[764] He was chosen because he was tall and thin, six feet, 145 pounds.

[765] He didn't mention he was also claustrophobic.

[766] He lay down on his back and wriggled head first through the cross tunnel with his arms out in front of him.

[767] The air was wet and sticky and within moments he was bathed in sweat.

[768] It was like trying to slither through a tightly wrapped sleeping bag.

[769] He would tell reporters later.

[770] Can you imagine?

[771] No. He inched to the end of the tunnel until he could look up at the shaft that held Jessica.

[772] Only the first few feet were lined with the pipe that protruded up into the yard.

[773] The rest was raw rock wall.

[774] One of Jessica's feet was dangling down toward Robert, but the other was out of sight, wedged near her head.

[775] so she was almost in a split and this is his quote Juicy which is his the parents nickname for Jessica Juicy I'm here to help you Oh I might cry Sorry He asked her to move her leg And she did Satisfied that she probably Had no overwhelming spinal injuries He started to tug on her foot But she didn't budge She was wedged in too tight And he did not have enough room to maneuver He cursed he prayed He became resigned to the fact that he would have to leave so that the diggers could whiten the tunnel.

[776] Oh, my God.

[777] He promised her he would come back.

[778] Oh, God.

[779] That poor little girl.

[780] Yeah, so he has to go back through that tunnel that was so awful to go through.

[781] Without her.

[782] Without her.

[783] He comes up.

[784] He's really upset.

[785] There are some people, there are doctors on the scene that are like, we think he's too upset to go back in.

[786] But he insisted that he was fine.

[787] They got like Vaseline.

[788] and they made it a little wider.

[789] They got Vaseline.

[790] And there was also, just so, you know, it's really interesting.

[791] I found this infographic that showed how narrow this crazy tunnel was at top and how it widened out.

[792] And they put a balloon under her so that she wouldn't fall further down.

[793] Oh, ships.

[794] Yeah.

[795] Yeah.

[796] So, like, they came in, they put the balloon down there.

[797] And then basically he went in, you know, it was widened out a little bit.

[798] And they just basically put a little Vaseline.

[799] He tugged on her.

[800] He pulled her and he got her and he pulled her back through the tunnel.

[801] So at 10 p .m. on October 16th, 1987, after 58 hours, two and a half days of being trapped.

[802] Oh, I chills with that.

[803] 18 -month -old, Jessica is pulled free by Robert O'Donnell and taken back across the tunnel to the parallel shaft.

[804] So at the bottom of the shaft, that parallel shaft that they dug, paramedic Steve Forbes is waiting there.

[805] He has a backboard, which is that thing they put, like, when you're a car accident or whatever.

[806] He has a little one for a little baby.

[807] He has a bunch of gauze.

[808] So he wraps her head.

[809] She's got a big cut on her head and her arms and, you know, stuff wrong with her legs.

[810] So he basically does real rudimentary kind of head wrap.

[811] He sticks her on this backboard and they get onto this, like, plank.

[812] And the two Forbes and baby Jessica are carried 29 feet up and out of the shaft.

[813] and when they get to the top and I swear to God you all have to go and watch this it's a 40 second clip on YouTube and it was I was crying so hard I was like this is more than just this video but it's so beautiful when they get to the top it's 10 o 'clock at night so it's all this you know it's nighttime but then it's all these lights like clear camera lights that they put up yeah and by this point you've got the reporters on their ladders but it's like it's like eight people deep it's mostly men, it's mostly these rescue workers and these volunteers, and when they come up out of this well, there is cheering and applause like you wouldn't, I mean, these are seasoned reporters, these are like paramedics and firemen that seen everything, and people are going nuts.

[814] Oh my God.

[815] Church bells across the town of Midland are ringing, and Jessica, even though she's covered in dirt, she's clearly dazed.

[816] Her mom is right there trying to get, you know, trying to get to her.

[817] she's alive and at this point all three TV networks all three TV networks because it's 1988 break into their regular programming to announce that baby Jessica has been rescued Dan Rather actually said live from Midland Texas Jessica McClure is up she's alive what a fighter so good okay so she's taken to the hospital oh oh and just in the video just you know there's a paramedic basically Steve Forbes so Robert O'Donnell is the one who got her out of the well handed to Steve Forbes Steve Forbes is the one who secured her and brought her up out of the shaft and then Forbes handed Jessica to paramedic Bill McQueen and he's the one that you see walking her out very quickly out of that backyard into a waiting ambulance she's rushed to a hospital she's in the hospital for over a month about 36 days wow she's got a pretty bad wound on her forehead and because her foot was above her head the whole time the loss of circulation she actually got gangrene and she had to amp they had to amputate one of her toes oh no which but other than that she's okay which is pretty amazing over the next few years she has to have about six surgeries but aside from a forehead scar and the toe she's she's totally fine and her hospital bills are paid she all the doctors that worked on her donated their time and then her remaining hospital bills are paid by anonymous donors.

[818] And the entire world begins to send gifts and toys and cakes and all this stuff to Midland, Texas for baby, Jessica.

[819] She is totally inundated.

[820] President Reagan and the first lady call the McClure's, tell them that they watched from Nancy's hospital room.

[821] She was supposed to go in for a biopsy and she said she would.

[822] wouldn't leave her hospital room until the baby came up.

[823] That's the quote from Nancy Reagan.

[824] I spit on the ground of that name, but still, but still, we're all human beings doing our best.

[825] So are we?

[826] Okay.

[827] I mean, are they?

[828] Are they?

[829] Were they?

[830] There are parades for the rescuers.

[831] And when Jessica's fully recovered and out of the hospital, the McClure's guest on live with Regis and Capi Lee.

[832] Yes.

[833] I remember.

[834] They get to give their first hand account.

[835] of the story.

[836] Of course, baby Jessica is so charming and lively and everyone is in love with her.

[837] And of course, in 1989, they make the ABC television movie Everybody's Baby, The Rescue of Jessica McCleur, starring Patty Duke and Bow Bridges.

[838] But of course, as with all things like this, with sudden and huge worldwide fame, there's a dark side.

[839] The state of Texas files a negligence claim against Jessica's aunt, Jamie Moore, whose daycare center was.

[840] What?

[841] There's a mine pipe in your four.

[842] Yard.

[843] I know.

[844] But it's pretty much what they have to do when, if something happens to a kid, they have to do it.

[845] And apparently the person at that department where those claims are filed was like those people have suffered enough.

[846] But Jamie Moore ended up closing her that daycare permanently.

[847] I mean, of course.

[848] So then the charges were dropped.

[849] But both the pressure of worldwide and small town fame eventually gets to do.

[850] Jessica's parents, Sissy and Chip McClure, when they take $30 ,000 of the money that is given because people end up having to open like a trust account because people just keep giving money.

[851] So they take 30 grand and buy a three -bedroom house on the edge of town, which is huge and way bigger than the house they already had.

[852] 30 grand.

[853] Can you imagine?

[854] The town gossip is like they're spending all of Jessica's money.

[855] People start to go crazy because it's jealousy and, you know, all kinds of stuff.

[856] Sure.

[857] This is an amazing quote from Lisa Belkin's article that it really warmed my heart.

[858] Not really.

[859] You'll see.

[860] Quote, this is, we were over at Denny's one day.

[861] Soon after it happened when she came in, says Maria Petronella, who lives two doors down from the house with the well, and was out front with a garden hose on a recent June morning trying to resuscitate her baked shriveled grass.

[862] There was a wait, and she looked at the guy and says, just like that.

[863] Do you know who I am?

[864] I'm Jessica's mother.

[865] I said to her, if it wasn't for a whole lot of other people, you wouldn't be anybody's mother.

[866] Oh, swish.

[867] So this is the kind of friendly, small town you know, pressure and like the behavior change, the gravy, status change.

[868] Hierarchy, celebrity.

[869] The financial change.

[870] The celebrity aspect.

[871] Everything goes nuts.

[872] Yeah.

[873] It seems like it never works out.

[874] great.

[875] Well, if everything changes overnight, I mean, how can it work out great?

[876] Yeah, look at us.

[877] You saw us at Denny's.

[878] We thought we're out of our minds cutting in front of people left and right.

[879] I've got to get moon over Miami.

[880] And I got to get it before you.

[881] That's what makes it delicious.

[882] So Sissy and Chip McClure end up getting a divorce in 1990.

[883] The pressure just gets to them.

[884] But worse than that, the fame and the pressure also affects the first response.

[885] Anders who are there.

[886] So this is another big quote from Lisa Belkin's article from New York Times.

[887] Quote, the attention heaped on the McClure's trickled down to the central players in the rescue.

[888] Andy Glasscock was seen in the Michael Jackson video Man in the Mirror.

[889] That's right.

[890] Remember?

[891] It included flashes of major news events.

[892] Forbes and O'Donnell each received a wall full of citations and plaques.

[893] And O'Donnell was asked to serve as a judge for the G .I. Joe's search for real American heroes and attend the White House Award ceremony for that program.

[894] Not only was he a guest when Oprah Winfrey brought her show to Midland, but he also sat next to her at the press conference beforehand.

[895] He was invited to speak at so many firefighter conventions around the country that he developed a slide presentation.

[896] Forbes and O'Donnell and their wives were flown to Los Angeles to appear on the television program third degree, where a celebrity panel tries to guess what two seemingly unrelated individuals have in common.

[897] the panelists knew immediately who they were.

[898] Wow.

[899] Yeah, that's how famous.

[900] Yeah.

[901] A four foot by six foot plaque was hung on the wall of the Midland Center, a bronze rendition of the Pulitzer Prize winning photo.

[902] Oh, so there was a news photographer from an Odessa newspaper who was one of the people up on one of those ladders.

[903] And when the baby got brought up, he snapped a photo that went on to win a Pulitzer.

[904] Holy shit.

[905] So, like, big stuff was happening for all of these people around there.

[906] Okay.

[907] An area a few blocks away was renamed Volunteer Park.

[908] At the actual site of the rescue, an iron plate was welded over the pipe with the inscription for Jessica with love from all of us.

[909] In an emotional ceremony, the rescuers, including O'Donnell, planted a red bud seedling surrounded by a ring of lavender chrysanthemum over the refilled parallel shaft.

[910] Sounds beautiful.

[911] Yeah.

[912] So then, of course, Hollywood comes calling.

[913] and there's multiple offers for TV, for movies or TV movies.

[914] So the rescuers and the volunteers become divided into two warring factions.

[915] And they each accuse the other of only caring about the money while claiming that they're the ones who care about the story being told well.

[916] Or they did the most important job work and whatever.

[917] So essentially it's that first wave.

[918] No one's experienced any of this before in every.

[919] everybody it gets as I want to say high on their own supply amen so the one who seemed to suffer the most from this fame and then it's a inevitable sudden withdrawal was the fireman robert o'Donnell who first pulled jessica out of the well when the phone stopped ringing he became depressed and listless he then became addicted to painkillers eventually his wife left him he lost his job as a fireman and then soon after the oklahoma city bomb in April of 1995, clearly suffering from PTSD.

[920] He drove down a lone ranch road and shot himself in his truck.

[921] He left a note that said, no help from nobody but family.

[922] Oh, God.

[923] Just so tragic.

[924] And I didn't know anything about that part of the story until I read Lisa Belkin's article.

[925] And please go read this article.

[926] It's mind -blowing.

[927] She spent a lot of time with him before he died.

[928] Wow.

[929] She spent time in Midland.

[930] She tells the story from the inside of watching this town, like, go through this amazing, beautiful, miraculous event.

[931] And then basically the fallout and how it affects people afterwards.

[932] It's really incredibly reported.

[933] PTSD is an ugly thing.

[934] Yeah, apparently when the, he was watching the rescuers go into, you know, the Oklahoma bomb site.

[935] And he said to, I think, a. By that time, he was living with his mother.

[936] I mean, things were very dark for him.

[937] And he looked at his mother and said, those guys are going to need help.

[938] Yeah.

[939] Like, just knowing and seeing, like, oh, this is what happened to us on like an even bigger scale.

[940] Right.

[941] Totally.

[942] But the upside and the kind of miraculous thing is baby Jessica herself turned out great.

[943] So she goes on.

[944] She graduates from Greenwood High School in 2004.

[945] She gets a job working in a daycare center.

[946] And as she's working there, one of her co -workers introduces her to her brother who becomes her husband.

[947] They get married in 2006.

[948] They have two kids, a little boy in 2007 and a little girl in 2009.

[949] And then what's my favorite part of the story and so beautiful, people never stop donating to baby Jessica's trust fund.

[950] And she wasn't allowed to access it until her 25th birthday.

[951] It had $800 ,000 in it.

[952] What?

[953] Are you judging?

[954] Kidding me. Nope.

[955] People from all over the world gave baby Jessica money for years and years and years.

[956] Can you imagine?

[957] Can you stuffing?

[958] Imagine.

[959] And also like, yeah, it's like basically, oh, my neighbor's waving high.

[960] Hi.

[961] That's the guy that told me I was beautiful.

[962] Oh, hi.

[963] We love you.

[964] I love him.

[965] Okay.

[966] So then other than a small scar on her forehead, and of course, not having, she only has nine toes.

[967] Right.

[968] But other than that, Jessica doesn't remember falling.

[969] She doesn't remember being in the well.

[970] She doesn't remember being rescued.

[971] She doesn't feel traumatized by it.

[972] She feels really lucky.

[973] And she says that the one amazing lesson that she learned from that whole experience, she's told this to Time magazine.

[974] If you look hard enough, there are so many good people in the world.

[975] right and that is the story of the rescue of baby jessica mcclure karen now can i just here's a post script okay and this is real and i've told a bunch of people this so because at first i was like i'm not going to tell this story on my podcast because then someone's going to steal my idea but all right i think this is i think i wrote this document i would say 2009.

[976] Okay.

[977] And it was, I never read.

[978] This is something you wrote.

[979] This is something, okay, so this idea I got.

[980] Um, I think it was like, I was probably unemployed, kind of just, you know, and I started thinking about the story because of how amazing it was and how big it was at the time.

[981] so I started, I wrote up a document because I wanted to write a sitcom called, oh well, about adult baby Jessica being a total monster.

[982] Okay.

[983] so here's the idea and this was I knew nothing about real baby Jessica so real baby Jessica if you hear this fictionalized I love that you're normal cool and you have 800 ,000 dollars everything about it but my idea was oh because I think I heard this I heard like in people or time or whatever yeah that that she had this huge trust fund and in my mind it was like it's seven million dollars or whatever so here's my document is a sitcom called oh well and it takes place in midland Texas baby Jessica is now grown up and lives in a mansion built over the well she fell into when she was 18 months old.

[984] A trust was set up that day that the public made donations into which has resulted in her living and behaving like a millionaire.

[985] She loves horses.

[986] Everyone still calls her the baby.

[987] Her mansion is built over the well and she talks into it like a friend at night.

[988] She has a know -it -all butler, a scroungy family.

[989] The town worships her.

[990] She has flights of fancy from the trauma she suffered as a baby.

[991] So animals and creatures come to visit her from time to time that she first met well she hallucinated them down in the well oh my god she's treated like a holy relic in the town people come from all over to see her and she's constantly being asked to do talk shows and parades and she's horribly jealous of any other child in peril on the news oh my god let's get that made this is this is going to be my next big project it's called oh well it is not based on fact but I love the idea of like someone like this that you're just going to take it you're just going to be a rescued baby and then be like now you're all my servants for the rest of your life.

[992] I hate that other famous baby.

[993] How dare that baby be rescued?

[994] I'm the rescued baby.

[995] But she's like 39.

[996] I love it.

[997] That's my story.

[998] That's the best.

[999] Great job.

[1000] That was so awesome.

[1001] I love that you did that.

[1002] What a great idea.

[1003] Thank you.

[1004] I like the disaster story element of it.

[1005] a happy ending.

[1006] Well, and like there's this tragic element to it that I think it's that again, that kind of thing, no one talks about stuff like that.

[1007] So it's like we all know the baby Jessica story and we all like a lot of us read about like the trust fund where it's like, that's kind of beautiful.

[1008] But the Robert O'Donnell's role that he played and then the way like what a wonderful thing and how much it meant to him obviously.

[1009] But then the way, the fame and the kind of like being in that spotlight and how it can affect you if you are of a certain makeup or you just like obviously no one in that town thought anything like that was going to happen no and they weren't prepared for it and they didn't get yeah the attention needed after yeah that's sad are you going to tell me a story i'm going to tell you a story it's a little bit legendary like yours yeah this is the deaths of Sid and Nancy No, do How have we not done this?

[1010] All the times We've done shows in New York And neither of us thought to do this It's crazy Me and my friend Laura Milligan When we used to get drunk in 90s I think it was with Laura I think we used to be SET Like doing that It's the best I remember I remember the movie came out, Sid and Nancy came out in 1986, and I remember, I must have seen it, you know, in the 90s at some point, being like, this is the most romantic story ever.

[1011] And then now I'm studying it as an adult.

[1012] I'm like, this is trash.

[1013] It's so depressing.

[1014] I remember hearing the quote where he was, Sid Bisha said, like, sex is boring and stupid.

[1015] And I was like, oh, no, am I perverted?

[1016] I think it's great.

[1017] I think it's great and exciting.

[1018] No, no, you're fine.

[1019] You're not the problem here.

[1020] I'm not on heroin.

[1021] That's the, I think that's the key.

[1022] Finish the sentence.

[1023] Sex is boring and stupid when you're on heroin.

[1024] Right.

[1025] So I got information from a website called History Collection, People Magazine, Mental Floss, Rolling Stone, a website, the website Independent.

[1026] And there's, so there's two articles on the Independent.

[1027] One is written by Joe Summerlad.

[1028] And the other one, I swear I looked so hard and could not find who wrote it.

[1029] But it was from like 93, so maybe they just didn't have it.

[1030] But it might have been Joe Summerlad for all.

[1031] I know.

[1032] A Daily Beast article.

[1033] There's a documentary called Who Killed Nancy and then also Wikipedia.

[1034] Karen, ready?

[1035] Yes.

[1036] Okay, this is Sex Pistols.

[1037] As you know, they were an English punk rock band.

[1038] They formed in London in 1975 and they were responsible for initiating the punk movement in the UK.

[1039] It was already going on in New York and the sex pistols were like the main thing going on in London.

[1040] And they're regarded as one of the most influential bands in the history of punk and music, popular music.

[1041] The group originally consisted of John Leiden, a .k .a. Johnny Rotten.

[1042] He was singing.

[1043] Steve Jones was on guitar, Paul Cook on drums, and Glenn Matlock was the bassist.

[1044] But in early 1977, Glenn Matlock was kicked out of the band, or he decided to leave because his mom hated how anti -crown the band was and, like, forced him to quit, which is really adorable.

[1045] And so he was in the name of all that's royal, get out of that band.

[1046] How dare you?

[1047] And just really quick, can we say, if you haven't heard Jonesy's jukebox, it's one of the best radio shows.

[1048] Steve Jones has this radio show that is, has in driving in traffic in Los Angeles, over the years I've lived here, saved my life.

[1049] It's influential.

[1050] It's so good.

[1051] Amazing.

[1052] So Glenn quit the band for Mom and was replaced by Simon John Ritchie, aka Sid Vicious, even though Sid had no idea how to play bass.

[1053] Okay.

[1054] I really love that.

[1055] I really love and respect the fact that he would get on stage and just kind of not know how to do it.

[1056] No, it's great.

[1057] It's so fun about that.

[1058] Yeah.

[1059] It is.

[1060] It doesn't matter.

[1061] Yeah.

[1062] So Simon John Ritchie, who I'm going to call Sid Vicious from now on because it's easier.

[1063] It was born on May 10th, 19.

[1064] Oh, that's, no, your birthday is the 11th.

[1065] That's right.

[1066] 1957 in England and his father flakes out on his mom.

[1067] Her name is Anne and his then so she remarries the stepfather.

[1068] Six months after their marriage, he dies of cancer.

[1069] How sad is that?

[1070] Like you've got this second chance and that happens.

[1071] So Sid Vicious's mom raises him alone in East London and by all accounts Sid Sid's mother Anne was not great.

[1072] Very problematic.

[1073] She was heavily involved in drugs as both a user and a trafficker.

[1074] And when Sid was a toddler, his mom used him as a drug mule.

[1075] She'd stuff his clothes with packages of hash and smuggle them from Spain to England.

[1076] So, not a good start.

[1077] Not cool.

[1078] That's really not Marion Cunningham.

[1079] I thought my mom was bad.

[1080] Right.

[1081] No, your mom's amazing.

[1082] She killed it.

[1083] Sex Pistol Singer Johnny Rotten said that once he was hanging out at Sid's house on Sid's birthday when they were like friends as young teens.

[1084] and and Sid's mom gave him, Sid, a bag of heroin as a birthday present.

[1085] And I think even for punk rockers, like, Johnny Rotten was like, what the hockey sticks?

[1086] And then Sid was like, oh, she means well, she just knows that heroin relaxes me. So it's all fine.

[1087] God, dish.

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] That's awful.

[1090] It's so awful.

[1091] It's not fair.

[1092] So Sid had first met Johnny Rotten in 1973.

[1093] There were both students at this technical college and their later teens.

[1094] and they had been hanging out in this in this little burgeoning punk scene that was actually pretty small in London and it originated in this little clothing shop called Sex that was run by Vivian Westwood yeah did you know that yeah and there's an there's an amazing documentary about Vivian Westwood if you haven't seen it it is I have to watch it I'll look up the title it's amazing she's so she just she did it in the face of everyone going this is disgusting and she would win these awards and everyone in the fashion industry would be mad because they'd all wanted everything to look like those weird 90s plain suits and she was up there yeah yeah exactly and she was like how about a kilt and a tank top yeah amazing so truly amazing i mean the fact that they named their clothing store sex just shows you like so cool so it was vivian westwood along with malcolm mclaren who becomes a sex pistols manager and um the clothing store specialized in clothing that define the look of the punk movement.

[1095] So Johnny Rotten nicknames this kid, Simon, his friend, nicknames him Sid Vicious because Johnny Rotten's had a pet hamster named Sid that he named after Sid Barrett, the founder of Pink Floyd.

[1096] And then one day the hamster bit Sid and they yelled about him being vicious.

[1097] And so now his name is Sid Vicious.

[1098] Legendary.

[1099] Kind of an innocent, yeah, innocent beginnings.

[1100] Right.

[1101] And actually, I didn't know this, but Sid Vicious was originally a drummer.

[1102] and he was the original drummer for Susie and the Banshees.

[1103] Really?

[1104] Yeah.

[1105] So we actually could play an instrument.

[1106] It just wasn't the bass.

[1107] Even more punk.

[1108] Yeah, it turns out they're not interchangeable.

[1109] So when the Sex Pistols needed a bass player, Johnny Rotten, like, didn't care that he couldn't play.

[1110] He brought in his friend Sid Vicious in February of 1977, and Sid Vicious never really learns to play, but he had been a big fan of the Sex Pistols.

[1111] He had been at every show.

[1112] And he, I think what mattered more for them was that great punk rock style with the spike black hair, leather jacket.

[1113] He wore a shirt that had a swastika on it as a, and he said it was like a political statement as a normalizing the swastika.

[1114] But, you know, it's England and like two decades past the bombing of your town.

[1115] No, dude.

[1116] No. So it doesn't matter what your intention.

[1117] Right.

[1118] It doesn't matter what your intention is.

[1119] It matters with the impact.

[1120] Exactly.

[1121] As we've all learned.

[1122] Right.

[1123] So on their debut album and only album, Never Mind the Bullocks, here's the Sex Pistols, Civicious for the recording was in the hospital with hepatitis.

[1124] So he was only on one track, one song where he plays bass, but even that track has to be dubbed over by Steve Jones.

[1125] So despite the success of Nevermind the Bullocks, which is a great album, my bollocks?

[1126] Is it bollocks?

[1127] Is it an O or you?

[1128] You're right.

[1129] No. I feel like you're my teacher I just I'm just I'm clocking you No I like it I'm trying to be punk and mispronounce things Mom Funny it's bologues Despite the success of never mind The bullocks The band never records another album And they break up after two and a half years Of being a band Which is a fact that many people blame on Sid's new girlfriend Nancy Spungent.

[1130] Let's talk about Nancy.

[1131] Sad.

[1132] Said.

[1133] That's good.

[1134] So Nancy Spungeon is born in 1958 into an upper middle class Jewish family, which I didn't know, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

[1135] As a young girl, Nancy is super smart, but her mom describes her as a problem child.

[1136] She has a lot of issues.

[1137] She was born with the umbellical cord wrapped around her neck, which may have caused some injuries.

[1138] is she throws violent tantrums as a kid.

[1139] She bullies her siblings.

[1140] She threatens her babysitter with a pair of scissors.

[1141] She even attacks a psychiatrist who was trying to treat her.

[1142] So she's just really problematic.

[1143] She's diagnosed with schizophrenia in her teens.

[1144] Though I don't know how accurate that is.

[1145] That must be like the early 70s when those diagnoses.

[1146] And I don't know who diagnosed her if was her, you know, an actual psychiatrist or her mom just thought that.

[1147] So whatever.

[1148] But she starts using drugs.

[1149] as a lot of us do and graduates early from boarding school at 16 and she moved out on her own and by 17 is in New York City she arrives right as the New York punk scene is blowing up and she makes money with part -time sex work.

[1150] So she's totally enamored with the punk scene and all the hot dudes and the bands, you're 17 and she eventually becomes known as a groupie and she follows bands like the New York dolls and the Ramones and it seems like she's just hanging out.

[1151] in that big, you know, CBGB era.

[1152] I mean, like, just the definition of cool.

[1153] Like, she's there.

[1154] She's in it.

[1155] But she, when she is regarded as a loud and obnoxious and unlikable, which I'd like to say is kind of the most punk rock thing you can.

[1156] Flopping.

[1157] Ew.

[1158] It really is.

[1159] You know?

[1160] So, like, yeah.

[1161] I feel like it's either that people have a problem with that means you must be really over the top or maybe they're just not punk rock enough.

[1162] But she's rejected by other groupies and accepted.

[1163] by the musicians mainly for her ability to get heroin and supply heroin to them.

[1164] So she follows the punk band Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers.

[1165] They go to London for their tour there in 1977, but they tell her to get lost.

[1166] I think their manager was like, this chick is problematic.

[1167] She like just anyone she's around becomes a hot dog addict, which is like, I think they can do that on their own.

[1168] And she ends up meeting the sex pistols instead.

[1169] So when 19 year old six, vicious and 18 -year -old Nancy Spungent meet.

[1170] They're inseparable right away.

[1171] They move in together really quickly.

[1172] And in a daily beast article, Malcolm McLaren writes that Nancy teaches Sid all about, quote, sex and drugs and the lifestyle of a New York rocker.

[1173] And some people think that Sid lost his virginity to Nancy, actually.

[1174] Aw.

[1175] Yeah, because he liked heroin more than sex.

[1176] So, who knows?

[1177] Sex is stupid and boring.

[1178] A whole lot of people blame Nancy for Cid's heroin addiction, but it seems like his mom might be the bigger issue, and he was fine before Nancy came along with that.

[1179] If he was getting it for his birthday, it's her fault.

[1180] But I guess heroin at that time in the London scene wasn't big, and everyone blames Nancy to bringing it over to then introducing it to that scene.

[1181] Wow.

[1182] I know.

[1183] Okay.

[1184] So in the documentary who killed Nancy, everyone talks about how Sid was like so smart and sweet and a goofy kid with a great sense of humor.

[1185] It's like fun to be around.

[1186] And he was this young, impressionable dude.

[1187] But then they go on to tell these forking stories about him and what an awful violent person he was.

[1188] But like they tell it lovingly.

[1189] But he actually tortured and killed cats.

[1190] There's multiple stories of him doing that.

[1191] He would go out looking for fights and go out to shows like looking for fights.

[1192] He used his belt buckle or a bike chain as a weapon.

[1193] After he'd pick a fight with someone at one show, he threw a bottle at a girl and permanently blinded her in one eye.

[1194] Jesus Christ.

[1195] There are stories of him vomiting on groupies and getting into fights at shows and like swinging, uh -huh, and swinging his base at like the audience trying to hit them on purpose.

[1196] He's like, mommy, mommy, I'm so bad at you.

[1197] Mommy, please, love me. Mommy, mommy.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] So Johnny, of all those things, purposely throwing up on people is so awful.

[1200] I'd rather take a belt buckle to the cheek than have some puke on me. There's a story can I tell you that like I think it was Joey Ramon went into a bathroom in London to shoot up with Sid Vicious and there was no water to mix the heroin with and so Sid took the syringe and in a clunking toilet bowl full of puke used that like he was just like one -upping everyone who was already trying to one -up society.

[1201] Fun.

[1202] yeah luckily he never met Ozzy those behind the music stories where Ozzy was snorting lines of ants and stuff oh god but he was friends with Lemmy which is pretty cool that is actually rad.

[1203] So Johnny Rotten's RIP lemmy RIP RIP Johnny Rotten's dad actually witnessed some of this insanity and stated that he felt that they were due to Vicious's insatiable need for attention never met by his mother because she was a drug addict he said of Sid Vicious quote if he was sitting here and no one was taking any notice of him he'd cut his hand or something to attract attention you'd have to take your mind off everything else and look at him and he was like he did cut himself a lot like pretty severely and just always seem to like be the center of attention he sounds like a real flopping cash hole and not a pleasant person at all even though everyone's saying how lovely he is and i think this whole nancy corrupted him thing is not legit at all not saying she's a great person well it's like he's responsible he's still an adult, as bad as his childhood is, he's responsible for himself.

[1204] Exactly.

[1205] You know, very, like, convenient.

[1206] I mean, I know, especially if the, you know, the portrayal of her is accurate, which I, it seems like it is.

[1207] Chloe, what's her name?

[1208] The web, I believe.

[1209] Chloe Webb, I love her so much.

[1210] She's so good in that role.

[1211] But that, you know, the voice and the whole thing where she didn't give honk by any, she's like, she was, you know, the real deal.

[1212] So I think it's very easy.

[1213] Like, when a woman like that comes along, a difficult woman.

[1214] It's like that that's your scapego for everybody's problem.

[1215] It's like she's part of that Yoko Ono and Courtney Love and her of like you ruined it and it's like they kind of ruined it themselves already.

[1216] They ruined it.

[1217] They were in there at those dudes.

[1218] And actually then you also factor in the many instances of domestic violence against Nancy by Sid.

[1219] He beat her and left her with a broken nose and a torn ear among other injuries.

[1220] I think it was Malcolm McLaren that said, quote, Sid chose Nancy every bit as much as she chose him.

[1221] And in respect of their dangerous, destructive codependency, he and Nancy were ideally suited.

[1222] So, you know, they kind of were perfect together in that way.

[1223] Yeah.

[1224] And everyone said that she filled a void and he filled a void in her, that the other one needed.

[1225] Nancy took care of Sid in a lot of ways.

[1226] And actually, if he, there's old video footage, if you go on YouTube and put in Sid and Nancy, interview.

[1227] There's that interview from them in a bed where she's just trying to get Sid to wake up.

[1228] He's nodding off and talking to the end.

[1229] I'm like, can I make you coffee?

[1230] Do you need coffee?

[1231] You know, right.

[1232] Over the next few months as the sex pistols become huge and they're all over the tabloids for their insane behavior and this anti -crown songs, Sid and Nancy are also like famous and are all over the press for their heroin -fueled antics.

[1233] And the press, labels Spongen as nauseating Nancy.

[1234] They love to do those stupid nicknames.

[1235] They really do.

[1236] Because of public displays of verbal abuse and this shocking behavior.

[1237] And he does everything she wants without question once she said to him, push that groupie down the stairs.

[1238] And he pushed her down the stairs.

[1239] Jesus.

[1240] So things are going.

[1241] Devil children.

[1242] That's right.

[1243] And the other members of the sex pistols collecting.

[1244] Hate Nancy so much.

[1245] that they ban her from their upcoming 1978 U .S. tour and, in fact, their manager had already tried to get Nancy kidnapped and sent back to New York City unsuccessfully.

[1246] Yeah.

[1247] Their tour manager told People magazine that Sid began to dislike everything except for heroin and Nancy.

[1248] But there was already a rift growing in the band between the manager and Johnny Rotten.

[1249] So Sid Vicious's behavior only made things worse and it just seems like Nancy's presence in said life sped up the demise of the band but wasn't the catalyst.

[1250] It doesn't seem like Johnny Rotten was a happy peach to work with either.

[1251] Not at all, but at least he was trying to have a real band and take the success they were earning with their, the whole directive.

[1252] It was a great idea and it was cool and it was like, and then it's just like someone that's just like hamster bent on ruining everything.

[1253] Just tripping and falling over the entire thing.

[1254] Yeah.

[1255] And just making a mess.

[1256] Just ruining it.

[1257] So the sex pistols break up after their last U .S. performance in San Francisco in January of 78.

[1258] And then Sid and Nancy go to New York City and move into the historic hotel Chelsea in New York City.

[1259] I said New York City.

[1260] It's known for house.

[1261] It's like a historic landmark now.

[1262] I felt that in my chest.

[1263] It was good, huh?

[1264] I felt it in my chest and I felt it in your chest too.

[1265] Through the wires.

[1266] We can finally.

[1267] Look, I'm channeling punk rock.

[1268] So, of course, the Hotel Chelsea is famous, you know, Jimmy Button, Bob Dylan and Mark Twain and Stanley, like everyone famous ever stayed there.

[1269] And Sid and Nancy move into Room 100 and register as Mr. and Mrs. John Simon Ritchie.

[1270] So they continue their beep -bo -bop crazy lifestyle, crazy drug abuse, partying, these raging arguments, domestic violence.

[1271] And all sorts of shady characters are coming in and out of their room.

[1272] and they're there for three months, and it's just a chaotic time.

[1273] So at this point, they had been together 21 months, and on the night of October 11, 1978, they throw a party, and when at the party, as any good boyfriend slash host of the party does, Sid takes at least 30 -n -all tablets, two -and -all tablets.

[1274] Never heard of it.

[1275] It's a strong barbiturate, and he takes 30 of them.

[1276] So he's attempting suicide at the party?

[1277] He's just having a laugh.

[1278] Okay.

[1279] And it knocks him out, obviously, so that sounds fun.

[1280] And the following morning at 7 .30, the hotel guests start to report the sound of a woman groaning from room 100.

[1281] And then at 10 a .m., Sid calls down to the reception and tells them that he needs help.

[1282] And when staff gets up there, they find Nancy's lifeless body under the bathroom sink.

[1283] in the room and she has a single stab wound in her stomach and so at just 20 years old nancy spongin is dead 20 they did all of that it's crazy i didn't realize they'd only been together for two years yeah it's i always thought like having watched the movie yeah i thought it was years and years yeah crazy so the staff at the hotel remember sid being like he was dazed he was wandering the hall he was wailing about how he had killed her and during his initial interview He confesses and says, I did it because I'm a dirty dog.

[1284] So he confesses, but he's arrested and charged with second -degree murder.

[1285] But once he's arrested, he retracts his confession saying he was asleep at the time.

[1286] And he woke up and found her dead.

[1287] And he said that maybe Nancy rolled over onto the knife when she was in bed and accidentally stabbed herself.

[1288] Nope.

[1289] Unlikely.

[1290] Don't think so.

[1291] Don't think so.

[1292] No, no, no. Personal opinion.

[1293] No. So in the following days, Cid is released on $25 ,000 bail supplied by Virgin Records, which is the band shampoo label, or it's his label at the time.

[1294] And a little while later, his bail is revoked after he assaults Patty Smith's brother, Todd Smith, with a broken Heineken bottle in a bar.

[1295] Because he was hitting on this dude, Todd's girlfriend.

[1296] And so the guy, Todd comes up and is like, please don't hit on my girlfriend or whatever.

[1297] And he, you know, hits him in the face with the bottle and like slashes his face.

[1298] So he's, so Sid Vicious is sent to Rikers to go through detoxification program and get clean.

[1299] But unfortunately, um, that doesn't happen because while he's there, his mother and Beverly smuggles in her vagina drugs to Sid.

[1300] Ugh.

[1301] Lady.

[1302] Lady.

[1303] Lady.

[1304] So Sid's released after 55 days on $10 ,000 bail.

[1305] And he's.

[1306] And so then his mom and some friends want to throw him a freedom party a couple days later.

[1307] Yeah.

[1308] So on February 1st, 1979, Sid and his friends and mom are having a party at the Greenwich Village apartment of Sid's new girlfriend, Michelle, and his mother, Anne, gets some drugs for him for the evening.

[1309] And Sid takes the drugs, but he thinks they're too, the heroin, but he thinks it's too weak.

[1310] So he asks another friend at the party to get him some more.

[1311] And his friend goes out and buys some heroin from people he's never bought heroin from before.

[1312] And so the heroin is 98 % pure, which is not what you normally get on the street and is way too pure for human consumption.

[1313] But Sid takes it.

[1314] And his friend takes him himself in almost overdoses and is like, be careful.

[1315] This is really strong.

[1316] But then when the party breaks up and his friend leaves him with Sid with his mother, and the heroin and shortly after it seems like Sid kind of sneaks some heroin and takes more and in the morning his mother goes to wake him up and finds him dead from an overdose he is 21 years old and it's just four months after Nancy's death quite bad I mean yeah 21 21 and 20 also okay go ahead no go ahead it just How come we had a girlfriend immediately after?

[1317] I think they met at Rikers in like rehab or something.

[1318] Jesus Christ.

[1319] I met my first real boyfriend in rehab.

[1320] But not for heroin.

[1321] Thank God.

[1322] Well, also, I mean, that's kind of a good place in some ways because I guess you're all sitting in a circle.

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] Being super real and authentic.

[1325] We did stop doing meth together.

[1326] So nice.

[1327] I guess it worked.

[1328] But with Sid's death, the police closed the case on Nancy.

[1329] on Nancy's death and no further investigation has ever done and over the years people have debated about Nancy's murder and whether or not Sid actually killed her and there's all these theories in my estimation and I think I kind of show this in the movie you know he gets he's high he gets annoyed with her he stabs her he goes back to sleep that's probably what happened but there is a possibility that he didn't kill her and because the amount of drugs he was on maybe he couldn't have woken up.

[1330] And there's other suspects.

[1331] There's drug dealers, like, in and out of the room the night before.

[1332] And the police did say that they had been robbed of $1 ,500.

[1333] So, but that could happen anyway.

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] But I mean, and people hated her enough to have her kidnapped to get away from them.

[1336] Right.

[1337] I mean, like, it's not like she was like, you know, beloved by all.

[1338] Beloved by all.

[1339] Exactly.

[1340] It's like, God, there must have been so many suspects.

[1341] That's right.

[1342] But the police, and the police discovered fingerprints belonging to six different people who had criminal records, but they never interviewed any of them.

[1343] And none of the visitors from the night before were ever interviewed.

[1344] The murder weapon had also been wiped down and cleaned.

[1345] Oh.

[1346] And no blood or fingerprints were found on it.

[1347] So that's a weird one, right?

[1348] Sounds like the cops were like, two junkies killed each or like a donkey killed another junkie and it's like we're not doing the paperwork.

[1349] Right.

[1350] But if he, yeah, if he had like in the middle of, you know, being passed out, stabbed her.

[1351] I don't think he would have had the wherewithal to wipe.

[1352] Or maybe he did it right before he called the cops.

[1353] Seems unlikely, but yeah.

[1354] Who knows?

[1355] Who knows?

[1356] And then if she had done it, which a lot of people think that they did, why would she, how and why would she wipe it, wipe off the weapon?

[1357] That she stabbed herself.

[1358] Yeah.

[1359] And it is true that she had done like a, you know, suicide attempt before just to get his attention.

[1360] So it's not totally out of the realm of possibility.

[1361] And then there's also people who think that they had a suicide pact together.

[1362] When after Sid's death, his mom found a handwritten note in Sid's leather jacket reading, we had a death packed and I have to keep my half of the bargain.

[1363] Please bury me next to my baby.

[1364] bury me in my leather.

[1365] jacket jeans and motorcycle boots goodbye wow so maybe he overdosed on purpose who knows and it's also possible that nancy yeah killed herself on accident because she was you know she was also they were both also known to self -mutilate and so after finding that note and contacts nancy's parents and asked if sid could be buried next to nancy and they're like heck no first of all she's being buried in a jewish cemetery and second of all like we think he is part of of the reason she's, you know, of course they were like, no. But Anne does climb over the fence of the cemetery and scatters some of Sid's ashes on Nancy's grave.

[1366] Oh, wow.

[1367] Wow.

[1368] What a mother.

[1369] She did it.

[1370] She did it.

[1371] She really did it.

[1372] So the biopic Sid and Nancy from 1986.

[1373] Amazing movie.

[1374] Amazing.

[1375] Directed by Alex Cox, who did repo man. Did you know that?

[1376] Of course you did that.

[1377] Yeah.

[1378] So it's Sid.

[1379] It's played by Gary Oldman.

[1380] and Nancy's played by Chloe Webb and and also of course musician Courtney Love was 22 when it came out and she was like this is the role I meant to play unfortunately she didn't get the role but she does play a smaller part as one of Nancy's friends yep she's I mean she's a standout though that's the thing about Courtney Love I remember watching that movie and it's like oh no what's happening here like you can't take your eyes off of her She never does anything half handshake.

[1381] No, no, sure.

[1382] She's the real deal.

[1383] So Sid's mother Anne takes her own life in 1996 at 63 years old.

[1384] And the guardian sums up the, that Sid and Nancy's tragedy as Romeo and Juliet with syringes.

[1385] And there is a poem that Sid wrote for Nancy that goes, You were my little baby girl and I knew all your fears, such joy to hold you in my arms and kiss away your tears.

[1386] but now you're gone, there's only pain and nothing I can do, and I don't want to live this life if I can't live for you.

[1387] So there might have an actual, like, real love there between the two of them and finally having someone who understood the other.

[1388] Yep, but you can't add heroin into the mix.

[1389] Yeah, I mean, that's going to wreck it.

[1390] Yeah, for sure.

[1391] So music critic Lester Bang's legendary, after Nancy's death said, quote, Sid and Nancy were possibly two of the most pathologically tortured humans on the face of the earth and that is the deaths of Sid, vicious, and Nancy Spengen.

[1392] Wow.

[1393] Amazing.

[1394] Great job.

[1395] Thank you.

[1396] Sad!

[1397] Everyone go watch Sid and Nancy.

[1398] It's so good.

[1399] Gary Oldman.

[1400] It's like Gary Oldman's like breakout role, right?

[1401] Yeah, he's so good.

[1402] He was in a, he was in a a really good movie right before, I think before that, it was British, that was about a British playwright who was gay.

[1403] Now, I can't remember what that was called.

[1404] It was so good.

[1405] Do you remember that movie?

[1406] Yeah, I saw it today in one of the articles, but I can't remember what it was.

[1407] Isn't this word dog in the title?

[1408] I can't remember.

[1409] Let's see.

[1410] It's really good.

[1411] Very 90s.

[1412] And in the move in Sid and Nancy, Sid's mom gave Gary Oldman when she went, he went to talk to her, gave him the actual chain and lock that Sid wore to wear in the movie so that's the real one there.

[1413] Oh, wow.

[1414] Yeah.

[1415] Oh.

[1416] Yeah.

[1417] That's kind of cool.

[1418] Yeah.

[1419] God, that mom, man. What a talk about.

[1420] She's the third most tortured soul on the planet.

[1421] That's right.

[1422] I mean, pathologically, whatever.

[1423] Like, God, it's just so unhealthy.

[1424] It's so unhealthy and it's so like, oh, you didn't stand a chance.

[1425] No. Little kid.

[1426] Like, you didn't have a shot at a normal life.

[1427] And you know what sucks is that the music, I think that a lot of people who had really shabby childhoods, they do go into music and it is their escape.

[1428] It is the release.

[1429] It's the thing that brings them somewhere else.

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] And he had the opportunity.

[1432] Clearly he could play instruments.

[1433] He had a musical, like, you know, talent and but rotten.

[1434] Heroin.

[1435] Heroin ruins everything.

[1436] And there is this idea too.

[1437] Like if he had gone to Rikers and actually tried to get sober, maybe his life would have taken a total different, you know, trajectory.

[1438] And maybe Nancy's life if, you know, if she had had a chance to go home and, you know, recover a little and get real psychiatric help, then maybe her life could have been way different.

[1439] I bet she would have been pretty flipping.

[1440] Awesome.

[1441] Yeah, but the thing that makes it so dark is like he couldn't do that because his own mom was like sabotage.

[1442] Exactly.

[1443] That sucks so much.

[1444] Oh, I looked up the, that Vivian and Westwood documentary is called Westwood colon punk icon activist.

[1445] It's from 2018.

[1446] Cool.

[1447] It's really mind -blowing.

[1448] Because I, my hilarious friend Luke loves Vivian Westwood so much.

[1449] And he basically made me watch that.

[1450] And I didn't know.

[1451] I knew about her, you know, very tangentially and kind of like her cool style, but not details.

[1452] Right.

[1453] And like she, she really, she was a driving force of the actual style of that like late 70s.

[1454] which is such a huge part of it can almost say that one wouldn't exist without the other in a way and they say you know like all those styles of like having safety pins or wearing like you know the clothes they wore it was um part of it was because of the the there was really bad socio -economic it was like thatcher's england at that time and so they would have like the garbage men would go on strike and then so there was just garbage piled in the streets so when the teenagers would walk from like their house to a club And I can't remember this, if this might be in Sid Nancy or it might be in a documentary about that time, they would just pick up garbage bags and put them on.

[1455] You know what I mean?

[1456] Because it was just like garbage was everywhere.

[1457] It was like people were poor.

[1458] There were strikes all the time.

[1459] There's a lot of labor issues.

[1460] There was like there was so much.

[1461] It was like kind of a depression, yeah, and a tension that was like very much like class, class issues.

[1462] And that's why, you know, that whole thing of like God saved the queen and basically saying flawed.

[1463] You royals, it took off because it was like, we're all down here in the muck and in literally in piles of garbage and you're in your in your tower like saying pay more taxes, you know, rough stuff.

[1464] All right.

[1465] Karen, I want to do Friday.

[1466] Hooray.

[1467] Yes.

[1468] I love it.

[1469] All right.

[1470] Do you want me to go first?

[1471] Sure.

[1472] This starts Friday hooray.

[1473] Hey, MFM fam.

[1474] During the COVID -19 quarantine, I've been feeling hopeless and helpless as I'm not a an essential worker, nor a health care worker, and I'm horrible with a needle and thread.

[1475] I felt there was something more I could be doing to contribute to supporting our community during this time.

[1476] My boyfriend and I took to walking around our community with trash bags and my old wagon collecting litter from parks and roadsides.

[1477] After just one weekend, we collected eight contractor trash bags fill to the brim.

[1478] If I can't fight the virus directly, at least I can fight pollution.

[1479] Thanks for all you do.

[1480] Keep killing the game.

[1481] And stay healthy for all our sake Shelby in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

[1482] That's awesome, Shelby.

[1483] That's duckling.

[1484] Beautiful and important.

[1485] It's important for your mental health and it's so cool that you found something to do but you're helping your community and that's duckling.

[1486] Beautiful.

[1487] It's really beautiful.

[1488] That's so smart.

[1489] This one is from orangulant something.

[1490] Okay.

[1491] Hashtag promo code murder.

[1492] My French hooray is for the staff at St. Mary's Hospital in Decatur, Illinois.

[1493] I went into their ER late Tuesday night with intense stomach pain and ended up needing an emergency appendectomy.

[1494] Oh, so scary.

[1495] So scary.

[1496] Oh, my God.

[1497] Due to COVID -19, my husband was not allowed to be with me and I had to go through the whole thing alone.

[1498] Every single nurse, doctor, and staff member was gentle, friendly, and comforting.

[1499] I had never had surgery before, so it was especially scary.

[1500] Everything went well and I'm back home recovering.

[1501] Oh, thank God.

[1502] Oh, my God.

[1503] How terrifying.

[1504] So terrifying.

[1505] I'm so glad that went well.

[1506] Yeah, what a bummer to be like, I really don't want to go to the hospital.

[1507] I have to go to the hospital.

[1508] Yeah.

[1509] And I have to go.

[1510] Yeah.

[1511] Okay, this is from Blood Splatter Analyst, and it's Anna is in all caps.

[1512] So I'm assuming this person's name is Anna.

[1513] Hi, my fabulous, hooray.

[1514] It's that down my street, a little girl is always on her porch, and every day she does something special for people walking by.

[1515] she has she has her violin practices out there make signs yells out funny jokes etc she brings me joy every time i pass her and she loves when i say something back to her stay home and safe but make sure you still interact with others somehow anna that's so cute that is very cute we uh vince and i sit out front of our garage now in our lawn chairs and um say hello to everyone walking by and silently judge them if they're not wearing masks but You know.

[1516] So true.

[1517] This is from Science of Myself, says my friendly, hooray.

[1518] For the week, I work at a domestic violence shelter in central Texas.

[1519] And this week, our staffed received a cookie delivery.

[1520] It was from Brunay Brown.

[1521] What?

[1522] And then there's a smiley face emoji, a cookie emoji, and a heart emoji.

[1523] How incredible.

[1524] I didn't know this when I talked about Renee Brown at the top of the show.

[1525] I hadn't read this yet.

[1526] But what?

[1527] That's the whole story?

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] They received a cookie delivery at their domestic violence shelter in central Texas, and it was from Brene Brown brunch.

[1530] Yes, Brene Brown.

[1531] I mean, just...

[1532] Class act.

[1533] Just doing it right.

[1534] Class act.

[1535] That's beautiful.

[1536] Hmm.

[1537] This one is from Ashley Ann.

[1538] Ashley Ann.

[1539] Okay.

[1540] I am a first time mom and my two -month -old baby girl cannot sleep for more than 15 minutes by herself alone.

[1541] alone in the bedroom.

[1542] She has to be sleeping right next to me or my husband or one of us has to hold her.

[1543] She will sleep for hours this way.

[1544] But this morning, after I fed her, I put her back down in the bedroom for a nap and she slept for all caps two and a half hours alone.

[1545] My husband and I were able to make ourselves breakfast and he worked on his laptop while I enjoyed some me time with a cup of coffee and a few chapters of the stranger beside me. Hell yeah.

[1546] Also, I I only peeked in on her once to make sure she was still breathing, which is a major progress, which is major progress, because I wanted to check in again like 80 more times, but I talked myself down.

[1547] Baby steps, literally.

[1548] French hooray.

[1549] From me and my baby girl, SSDGM, Ashley Ann.

[1550] Oh.

[1551] Good job, Ashley Ann.

[1552] You know, my mom used to tell the story when she had my sister, her first baby.

[1553] She would go in every 15 minutes with a mirror.

[1554] Yeah.

[1555] She wanted to make sure Laura was still breathing.

[1556] I bet.

[1557] It's just terrifying.

[1558] How could you not?

[1559] Totally.

[1560] Okay, here's my last one.

[1561] This is from Mushroom Beast.

[1562] My hashtag fun.

[1563] My name is that my mom, Linda, gave me a thumbs up yesterday.

[1564] My mom had a stroke in February and it was the scariest day I've ever experienced.

[1565] She was totally healthy, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink.

[1566] And one Sunday morning, she just had a stroke.

[1567] She was paralyzed down her left side for a while and with intense physiotherapy her movement is coming back and we kept joking that when she could give me a thumbs up we'd celebrate well yesterday i came downstairs and she was sitting grinning at me with her thumb up oh she's the strongest woman i know and she has just been so determined and focused in her recovery so french hooray and thumbs up yes oh my god crazy the little things you focus on like and that matter once once you know once everything is real yeah when you get that perspective of like listen this is the thing that it gives us a lot of stress and a lot of um you know panicky feelings but there is this advantage to looking at life like that could happen to you or you could catch the cerebral disease or something that this is not we are lucky every moment that we have with our health is a gift and we should treat ourselves like that you it's a gift and we should treat other people like it's a gift and we should all go out onto our symbolic porches with our symbolic violins and play them for other people and be nice to your neighbors and wave to people and like get in the game while you still can it's important i love that it's so true it's so true i really really hope that we come out of this whenever we come out of it a little kinder everyone is a little more easy on everyone else and a little kinder well i think already a lot of us and it's only been about two months really of starting to appreciate the like other human beings and the the potential connection and the connections that we have and the things that we miss and like that all those things like that the screen doesn't give it to you and like the internet does not give it to you.

[1568] And you can only really get it from people in front of you.

[1569] And so, yeah, hopefully that's something that doesn't just immediately evaporate.

[1570] The second we're all like, woohoo, it's over.

[1571] I can go to baseball game or whatever.

[1572] Yeah, for sure.

[1573] And, you know, thanks all of you for listening.

[1574] Everyone is, people say such nice things to us online about, you know, continuing to do this podcast.

[1575] For me, it's a gift to get to.

[1576] Yeah.

[1577] What a miracle that this, you know, that we get to do that and we have these people that care so much and listen and give it.

[1578] Splash.

[1579] I mean, like, it's really nice.

[1580] Yeah.

[1581] It's really, really, it's really a gift.

[1582] So thank you guys.

[1583] Thank you.

[1584] We're so incredibly lucky and grateful for you guys.

[1585] Send your big feelings.

[1586] Just hashtag them and we'll read them next week.

[1587] Maybe.

[1588] Yeah, bigger, small.

[1589] Whatever, whatever's going on with you.

[1590] It's very, it's very good for your mental health to keep a gratitude list.

[1591] And so try to do it and try to find those moments so that you can big feelings along with us.

[1592] And in the meantime, stay saved.

[1593] And do God's mission.

[1594] Goodbye.

[1595] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1596] Yeah?

[1597] This has been an exactly right production.

[1598] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1599] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1600] This episode was edited by Liana Squalachi.

[1601] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[1602] Goodbye.

[1603] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[1604] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[1605] Visit exactly right store .com to purchase my favorite murder merch.