Chad Sanders

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[3] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.

[4] I'm Dax Randall.

[5] I'm joined by Monica Lilly.

[6] That's correct, sir.

[7] How are you, sir?

[8] I'm great.

[9] You are.

[10] This was a really fun conversation.

[11] Oh, man. I was so charmed by Chad.

[12] He's wonderful.

[13] Yeah, he's so damn charming.

[14] And I think he was upset that he was charmed by us, too.

[15] Chad Sanders is an author.

[16] He has a new book called Black Magic, what black leaders learned from trauma and triumph.

[17] It's a really incredible story that he has, personally, having been in tech in Silicon Valley, and trying to, quote, act white and realizing you'll never be as good at being a white guy as a white guy.

[18] So just an incredible conversation.

[19] We really, really liked meeting Chad and talking to him.

[20] I hope everyone will check out Black Magic.

[21] Also, we'd like to always promote some Black -owned businesses.

[22] I want to talk about a Black -owned business called Soap Sox, founded by Ray Phillips.

[23] Now, what's great about this is my own daughter loves to take her stuff.

[24] He's in the bath.

[25] She loves it.

[26] She lives to do it.

[27] And they're not really designed for that, and they're not wearing so perfectly.

[28] They have a stink.

[29] But Ray noticed that kids don't love getting soap out of all.

[30] bottle and on themselves, so he figured out put it in a stuffy.

[31] So what he's got is an adorable line of plush friends that kids can take from playtime to bath time.

[32] It's two and one fun with soapbox, the cuddly companions, you can actually take in the tub, snuggle, cuddle, and play together all day when it's time for your bath, bring them with you.

[33] That is genius.

[34] To learn more, visit Soap Sox Kids.

[35] That's Soap Sox ,000, kids.

[36] Nice.

[37] I want to highlight a florist called Whit Hazen.

[38] This is Los Angeles only, which I'm sorry, but she has the most beautiful flower arrangements and bouquets.

[39] She does weddings and events or services.

[40] And I saw them on Instagram.

[41] Somebody had posted a picture of maybe like a baby shower or something.

[42] And I was like, oh my God, those flowers are gorgeous.

[43] Luckily, she had tagged Whit Hazen.

[44] So then I went down a rabbit They're so pretty.

[45] And if you're looking for flower arrangements, check out Whit Hazen, if you're in Los Angeles.

[46] W -H -I -T -H -A -Z -E -N .com.

[47] Wonderful.

[48] Please enjoy Chad Sanders.

[49] Oh, my goodness.

[50] Look how cute this smile is.

[51] I know.

[52] I wasn't expecting that.

[53] Good thing we have a ring light.

[54] We're looking good.

[55] I don't think we're looking that good, are we?

[56] Oh, we're never looking back.

[57] Okay, geez.

[58] I wish.

[59] You know what?

[60] I got fucking glammed by that compliment, and I pressed the cord on the Zoom thing.

[61] Glammed.

[62] How you doing?

[63] I'm good.

[64] I'm a little bit delirious.

[65] Like, I was going to ask you at some point in this conversation, like, yo, how do you do this?

[66] Promotion?

[67] Yeah, promotion.

[68] And just, like, going from, you know, high energy combo to higher energy.

[69] Convo, but it's like, it's not really like exhaustion.

[70] It's more like adrenaline and cortisol.

[71] Yeah, I don't know.

[72] Yeah, a bunch of shit.

[73] Like, all the bad chemicals.

[74] Yeah, man. It's funny you'd say that because I just was on, not that I'm bragging, but I just was on the daily show like one second ago.

[75] So similarly, I'm like, oh my God, I got to, I'm trying to impress him and be good on that show.

[76] And then I got to be prepared on this show.

[77] And yeah, switching the gears is, you know, and then what I find, I don't know if you found this.

[78] It can be fine in this moment, right?

[79] Like, it's very energizing.

[80] It's like at 4 p .m., you're like, oh, my God, I feel like I ran a marathon, but all I did is sit and chat.

[81] Yeah.

[82] The thing that's been messing with me is, you know, when somebody asks a question that I've answered before, it feels cheap to give the same answer again.

[83] So I try to like challenge myself to give some new interesting answer, and then it's not interesting.

[84] And you're like, I should have just been cheap, but yeah this is fun though i can totally relate and let me go further so i relapsed very publicly and so we talked about it on here i felt great about that it was very sincere but now i'm doing press to promote this top gear show in every fucking interview i do they bring it up and it's like what am i going to not say it and then i even hear myself as i'm answering i'm like oh this is getting way too well rehearsed this sounds disgusting and it sounds like i'm out promoting the fact I relapse and I just The whole thing I'm like I did it Like let's just move on Fuck yeah We don't want a trending relapse It's weird too Like you know Y 'all are storytellers And I am I've told myself The story of myself So many times That I'm like Well when I say it out loud Is it gonna still sound spontaneous and authentic and shit And is it even true Oh Is it even true Is it even true is the most relevant question Ever This is my first go -round, so I'm figuring it out, you know.

[85] Well, hopefully you'll fuck up, you know, in a way that will allow you to learn something.

[86] Right.

[87] It could be exciting.

[88] You could learn something.

[89] Yeah.

[90] No, for sure.

[91] Like, you guys probably know this, but at some point earlier in your career, you probably, like, had a big interview on your schedule.

[92] And it's like that date with, like, the person that you really want to date.

[93] And you, like, every day, every hour, you're like, I hope this shit doesn't get canceled.

[94] I hope this shit doesn't get canceled.

[95] literally sitting in the seat.

[96] So I've, like, done the interview so many times in my head already.

[97] And part of that for this book and for what I talk about is like, I even have friends texting me like, yo, when you go talk to these white people, don't be like, oh, ha, ha, he, he and sweet about it and shit.

[98] And so I'm like, yeah, I'm going to keep it extra real.

[99] And then you sit down across from a real person and they smile at you and you just smile back at them.

[100] Some of us white guys are super charming.

[101] We'll fuck you up.

[102] You'll be like, wait, this guy seems pretty nice.

[103] That's how we get screwed.

[104] Now, you're from Maryland.

[105] Where in Maryland are you from?

[106] I am from Silver Spring, Maryland.

[107] Is that a D .C. suburb?

[108] It is, but I like to think of it as its own thing.

[109] Only because you opened the door, you just gave me a little crack, I am just going to say Maryland is a unusual and special place.

[110] It's like the eighth smallest state.

[111] There's no reason for it to be noteworthy or interesting.

[112] but a lot of incredible basketball talent comes out of Maryland and also some pretty fantastic writers like Taunahisi Coates, Frederick Douglass, Dave Chappelle have come out of Maryland.

[113] Dave Chappelle's from Silver Spring.

[114] He's from 10 minutes away from where I grew up.

[115] Oh, where is...

[116] I've never heard of him.

[117] Oh, God.

[118] Chappelle?

[119] Dave Chappell?

[120] He's black.

[121] I don't know if he's crossed over yet.

[122] He'll have a net.

[123] Netflix special one day.

[124] He's perfect.

[125] I do want to go on a little tangent here.

[126] One thing I did love in the 90s because I wanted to be a stand -up, so I watched a ton of stand -up.

[127] And there was this pretty well -worn genre in the late 80s, early 90s, where black comedians would do white guy voices.

[128] They'd be like, black people say it like this, white people say like, hmm, can I blah, blah, and it never got old for me. I always fucking loved it.

[129] Well, the funny thing is like 95 % of the time when y 'all talk to a black guy, he's doing his white guy voice i'm doing it right now right oh yeah i had the most unique experience among many i was so lucky to have had a black wife on television for six years and i learned so many things and i got proven wrong so many times it was very very educational but one of the first things was oh i've known her i'd met around events or whatnot and i knew her i knew quote knew her and then we were on the show together and we'd be on set together and then we became friends and we'd hang out and eat lunch and stuff and then I'd see the joy from the Bronx and I was like wait my first thought was oh she's doing a character and then of course I realized no no she was doing a character to me now this is real joy and I feel flattered that I get to see real joy you felt flattered by it I mean that's interesting because we spend so much I'll speak personally I spend so much energy now at this point subconsciously hiding that person because I'm afraid that it's going to make someone uncomfortable and they're going to kick me out of the uh what's the primal fear there we're going to get kicked out of the village or some shit yeah yeah not going to be able to feed myself out so right well it's a really really really nuanced topic right there's so many layers to it so like you have to be nervous what if you're black and you grew up and you only have your you're like you're not code switching.

[130] Is that person to feel guilty that they can't empower or harness their black magic?

[131] Like, do you think about that level of the nuance?

[132] I do.

[133] I went to an HBCU.

[134] I'm from a super diverse place, but I'm from, you know, a suburb of chocolate city, as it were.

[135] I went to college in Atlanta.

[136] Morehouse, right?

[137] Went to Moorehouse.

[138] I'm basically saying, like, I know thousands of black people, right?

[139] And so, of course, there are so many different ways that we come across and talk and represent ourselves, the dude in the book, and also I would say the guy in my life who kind of acted as a fullback for a bunch of us and like plowed through a bunch of walls and shit was this guy named Jason Crane, who I went to college with.

[140] And Jason's the one who managed the strip club up in Kansas City with his dad.

[141] And I'm not sure if it's written as a strip club in the book, but I think that's what it is.

[142] But I'm glad we're getting the real here.

[143] Okay, cool.

[144] But in any case, Jason, it's not that.

[145] he doesn't have the ability to do that sort of code switch or whatever, but he's the one of us who the least of all was willing to do that.

[146] Maybe out of stubbornness, maybe out of some kind of insight that that wasn't the way to get through.

[147] But regardless, it kind of just seeing him be that way empowered me to be like, maybe I can be who I am, which, you know, isn't a street kid.

[148] It's not like I'm from DC.

[149] I'm from Silver Spring, like I said, you know, so I think there's something to that.

[150] I guess that's what I'm saying.

[151] I've had people have every level.

[152] I keep using her, but she already talked about it on here publicly.

[153] So I don't feel too bad bringing it up.

[154] But it's like for joy, she ended up going from the Bronx to this really fancy private school in Connecticut.

[155] So she'd be there half the year.

[156] And she's, of course, kind of code switching into that.

[157] But then when she's coming back to the Bronx, now she's not black enough.

[158] So I'm like, this poor girl didn't have a country.

[159] It was like she wasn't white enough there.

[160] She's not black enough here.

[161] And I guess that's what I'm saying, the complexity of it, is you can feel it on both ends, right?

[162] Yeah, it becomes very isolating because when you do that switchover, for me it was I would be in class.

[163] I'd be in like the gifted and talented class with all the other white kids whose parents were in my parents' tax bracket.

[164] And then I would go out into the hallway and I would kick it with, you know, my friends who looked like me. and I would try to quote unquote code switch back to the way that they talked.

[165] And I felt, even as I was doing it as a high schooler, I felt shameful.

[166] I felt like I was being disrespectful to them, which made me feel like I was disrespecting myself.

[167] And then, I mean, this is how you become a writer, right?

[168] Because then you're just like, I'm in my head now.

[169] I'm just going to like watch it, not participate.

[170] Well, what you get great at is right, you are really committing to memory all the character types because you're going to be playing them.

[171] It's so funny because I just related to you so much.

[172] In high school, I too was in some gifted and talented stuff.

[173] Right.

[174] But my passion was drag racing.

[175] Everyone I hung out with those gearheads.

[176] We were all white trashes at fucking God.

[177] We partied in fields.

[178] We were hillbilly somehow living 30 miles from Detroit.

[179] So I know that feeling of going out in the hallway from my fucking AP bio class or whatever.

[180] And then being embarrassed when I'd see my buddies like, oh, God.

[181] Yeah.

[182] You're, like, so scared that what if someone from that side over there saw what I was doing over there?

[183] Or what if somebody from that side over there saw what I was doing over there?

[184] Yeah.

[185] Ask me if I want to study for something in the middle of talking about what Edel Brockian take we're putting on something.

[186] Yeah, man. You also just reminded me if one of my little notes was like, oh, tell me your dad's from Detroit because my dad's from Detroit.

[187] So that was like, yeah, he is.

[188] Was his family originally from Kentucky or Tennessee?

[189] They were from South Carolina.

[190] And all my family is, they're from the South, so to speak.

[191] And my dad's side, they all migrated up there to Detroit, to the Midwest.

[192] He's like, he went to Western High School.

[193] He's from West Side.

[194] Uh -huh.

[195] He's a basketball player.

[196] Yeah.

[197] Yeah, man. So really quick, who did we interview that wrote a book about the like four migration routes for?

[198] Was it cast?

[199] I think it was Isabel Wilkerson's cast.

[200] Yeah, it was really fascinating to find out like what all these strings.

[201] of black people going north what you know there's all these kind of predictable migration routes and why it is they went it's just very fascinating but so when you go to more house and what happens at more house do you feel when you get there like oh okay this is different i'm surrounded by people who look like me is it eye -opening in an interesting way i think at first like most people's freshman year of college, it's exciting and terrifying at once.

[202] You have no social capital.

[203] You're brand new.

[204] In my case, I've never known how to, like, dress like the other kids.

[205] Like, that's always been my thing as I've, like, I couldn't quite nail it.

[206] It's like, oh, it looks like we're doing polos now, but like, what's my polos different?

[207] Like, why is the emblem fucked up?

[208] And it wasn't like, I didn't have the resources.

[209] It's just like, I didn't get it.

[210] So, yeah.

[211] So, like, the first thing was just like trying to figure out what is happening here like who do I want to be like you know I saw fraternity guys I could clearly see that was a thing so I was like all right I'm going to get with that I played ball in high school but I wasn't good enough to play in college so I was like okay that's not an option so first it was just like what am I where do I stick had you gone there with an expectation and a fantasy like oh I'm going to be in an all black university it's going to be like fish in a water so was it kind of like cognitive dissonance a little bit like you thought you were going to click right in?

[212] No, because the truth is I never felt like I totally fit in in all black environments.

[213] You know, I never felt like I totally fit in anywhere.

[214] And I think my mom will hear that and be like, well, yeah, you're such a leader, your whole life.

[215] And like, that was kind of the mechanism.

[216] That would be my thing is I'd be like, all right, I don't know where I stick here.

[217] So let me puff my chest out and try to be like, you know, try to be.

[218] the leader try to get the baton somehow oh chat i couldn't figure out the wardrobe either so i said you know i'm gonna be fucking punk rock because punk rock tells you i'm not playing the game and how are you gonna judge this punk rock thing no one else is doing it that's right yeah and i i see that frankly like i can still see it in you you know what i mean you can probably see it see it back a little bit oh big time you're telling yourself like i am resisting i just want approval there's true like i just want to be accepted by every human being but i i have all this ego then I'm like, well, if I'm not going to be accepted, then I'm going to show you, I don't need to be accepted by you.

[219] But of course, all I want is to be accepted.

[220] That's all I want.

[221] Of course.

[222] That's really all I want all the time.

[223] We're primates.

[224] We're social.

[225] That's what we want.

[226] Anyway, to stay at Morehouse, like, there's nothing to compare it to for a black person, a white person, for any person to go to a campus that only has black people between the ages of 18 and 22.

[227] There's nothing else to compare it to.

[228] You know, the things you would compare it to are like, frankly, like an NFL team, right?

[229] But with such diversity within that cast of characters and such subtlety of diversity, right?

[230] Like a black nerd from where I'm from, which is what I was, is completely different from a black nerd from St. Louis.

[231] A music kid from, you know, Sunnyvale, California is completely different from a music kid from Katie, Texas.

[232] So I started learning in a way that I never understood the differences between black people.

[233] And then once you see like these little tiny subtle differences, it's like, oh, I'm going to, you know, that one has a nose ring.

[234] That looks cool.

[235] That one has dreadlocks.

[236] Like that looks cool.

[237] But then it gets deeper.

[238] You know, it's like, well, that one is an entrepreneur.

[239] And here's how he sees the idea of building a business.

[240] So let me like study that kid for the next three years and learn everything I can about him.

[241] And like, it's weird because the school is so thorough and so thoughtful about making sure that you feel.

[242] pride in your identity but also it kind of like for a moment it washes all that shit away because you just don't see anybody else but black people for four years yeah yeah yeah you're not seeing the like obvious shit yeah you for the first time get to see even your own people as just people and that's yeah not something you get for most of your life if you grow up in this country at least yeah yeah well there's the a thing monica just brought it up the other day but the parable about the fish in the water.

[243] Mm -hmm.

[244] Oh, yeah.

[245] Damn it.

[246] I was going to say that shit.

[247] Fuck.

[248] Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[249] No, we'll edit it and we'll flip it so you said it.

[250] Oh, yeah, that's what Monica said.

[251] The thing I've been thinking is exactly that.

[252] It's the parable.

[253] I think they kind of botched it in that Pixar movie that just came out, Seoul.

[254] They kind of like mangled it a little bit.

[255] But anyway, it's like the two fish and like one fish comes over to the other.

[256] It's told different ways.

[257] One fish comes over there.

[258] He's like, oh, the water's cold today.

[259] And the fish is like, what's, it's water.

[260] The metaphor is meant to imply or to say that, like, life is all the little things that are happening while we're waiting for and looking for and hoping for life to happen.

[261] And race, in my opinion, is similar.

[262] It is the operating system of everything, whether or not we choose to acknowledge it or see it.

[263] And once we see it, you can't stop thinking about the water.

[264] You can't stop knowing that it's there.

[265] Yeah.

[266] I guess what I I was thinking of potentially, at least your life experience could have been the opposite of that parable, which is you were always very aware of the water.

[267] And then maybe at a place like Morehouse, you could actually just swim around.

[268] That's it.

[269] I really got to become Chad there.

[270] I mean, we just connected on it, right?

[271] But so much of my energy output is in resisting.

[272] It's in like being the opposite of what someone's telling me to be.

[273] And so at Morehouse, I did get to kind of just be.

[274] And then I found out what was there.

[275] So your story then, and really this becomes the catalyst for the work you do and the book you've written Black Magic, is you graduate and then you go to Silicon Valley.

[276] And then I think among many places, you worked at Google for four years.

[277] And you were now probably even, if we had to put on a spectrum, say your high school experience versus Morehouse, I'm imagining this experience in Silicon Valley is even to the left of your high school.

[278] Yes.

[279] Silicon Valley, I did not know how white a white place could.

[280] be until I lived in Silicon Valley.

[281] I lived in, you know, whiteness comes in its shades as well.

[282] And I have always felt probably because of where I grew up, a little more comfortable with kid whose dad might have a Confederate flag on the back of his car than a kid whose dad had a building named after him at Harvard.

[283] I know where he's coming from.

[284] Like, he's not going to side swipe me. He's not going to undermine me with, you know, death by a. thousand sort of microaggressing cuts you know it's like two players that meet in the hole on a football field it's like all right i see where you're at and a lot of times when you get through that kind of friction you know if you ever get in a fight after the fight you kind of have respect for it you can't understand each other it was this new Silicon Valley this like theoretical liberalism where like people care so much about black people but they don't know any and that's that's always that stuff like it was was pervasive.

[285] It was in the building and I have to say like the truth is it was so tight to start my career at Google.

[286] Like that was a dream.

[287] The company was at that point 15 years old.

[288] It was fucking Google.

[289] It was like as cool as I don't know what the cool like I don't know, TikTok or some shit.

[290] It was like it was really cool then.

[291] And it showed me so much it was my introduction to corporate America.

[292] And that was my, in a lot of ways, my reintroduction to whiteness as like the most important form of prestige of anything.

[293] Yeah.

[294] So in the book you talk about the many different things, the cues that you started observing, right?

[295] Like, where did they vacation?

[296] What music festival did they go to?

[297] How did they dress?

[298] And the obvious thought, if I'm you, is like, okay, I got to get with this.

[299] If I want to compete and I want to ascend this ladder, I've got to play by their rules.

[300] Yeah.

[301] And like, okay, at the biggest scale, you know, for my greatest daydreams, it's like, yes, it's that.

[302] If I want to.

[303] want to ascend.

[304] If I want to be Eric Schmidt one day, like if I want to be the CEO of a company like this, then I better master this shit.

[305] But like in the moment, as I'm learning and figuring that out, it's so simple and elemental.

[306] It's like if I just want someone to look at me when I say something, then I need to be able to speak this language.

[307] I need to say it with this tone and this cadence.

[308] I need to have these clothes on.

[309] Like if I want anybody to hear me and value what I have to say and not just out of novelty, then they need to feel like I am one of them.

[310] And, like, for me, the way to appear to be one of them was to, like, try to be one of them.

[311] Yeah, you got to master passive aggressiveness, uh, mitigated compliments.

[312] There's a real art form.

[313] Well, I mean, but, well, let me just ask, like, what's up with that shit?

[314] Like, why do you have to do that?

[315] Like, what is that?

[316] Well, a couple things I want to say is one is someone I'm very good friends with in Detroit.

[317] They say the worst words.

[318] They say the fucking worst words.

[319] They say all the words that the liberals in L .A. would kill someone over saying.

[320] Yet this person's, his whole friendship circle is Latino and Black.

[321] And I'm like, look, part of me is like, okay, y 'all aren't saying the wrong words, but fucking who cares?

[322] Like, this person is actually like a meshed in some multicultural experience.

[323] So I get a little judgmental of that.

[324] That's one of my pet peeves.

[325] Gotcha.

[326] And then, yeah, this faux polite.

[327] is triggering to me but that again is my class thing it's like oh everyone's shitting on you but they're doing it in this manner what you can't actually in a court of law you read the transcript back what did they say it's how they said it yes it's tonal and it's a chess match and if you are used to playing with a different chess board like you're just going to take ls over and over and over again and i know i'm a passenger i don't want to try to take the steering wheel here i do i do want to ask though like when you hear like a part of me wants to be like all right now i need to write white magic because i want to know what the fuck what do white people say to each other when nobody's around what kind of i mean you don't have to repeat the things but like what kind of stuff that is in some ways the boogeyman for me can be maybe even worse than what's actually being said between white people there's this idea that i think a lot of us carry that like when we're not around if we come up terrible things are being said yeah well how could you not assume the worst given the history so and not the history the present given what's going on and i yeah i mean as yesterday even being history just like the story of black people in america how could you be aware of that and not assume the worst i grew up among all white people and also was just like assimilating to the nth degree and i mean there is conversations that happen with white people about people of color that I feel like I'm privy to because I'm just like, I'm white like you, like you, you know?

[328] And I think it does depend on the group currently is kind of extra tricky, I think, because it's a conversation we're having a lot now and we're perpetuating it.

[329] That's, you know, and I'm happy about that.

[330] But these conversations are happening at dinner tables and stuff, which need to.

[331] But it's all from a very liberal stance and then there'll be a joke or something that comes up.

[332] And I am always conflicted of like, so what do I say right now?

[333] Like, you know how we're always talking about how we have to call out what's happening?

[334] Like, I'm calling it out now.

[335] Yeah.

[336] It's complicated, I think, because people want to be good, but they're also ingrained.

[337] Can we air one in front of you that we had that I think I would be very interested in your point of view on?

[338] An exchange?

[339] Yeah.

[340] Yeah, yeah, for sure let's do it i said i don't think black people take covid as seriously as a lot of the white liberals and monica was really upset by that and i understand why and i go look i just notice in my friends and the people i follow on instagram i don't think they give a fuck as much and i think they don't give a fuck as much because they have actually have a legitimate threat of death from a very real source and this virus is like okay i got to worry about that too like that's my explanation for it so first of all it's cheating when you say it because you're a comedian like you know what i'm saying it's like all right my friends who are black comedians like half the shit that comes out of their mouths i'm like i have a writing partner who's a comedian right he's in his 50s like he's brilliant he's super super sharp super quick super funny i'm like this like touchy -feely thoughtful millennial so like half the shit that comes out of his mouth i'm like dear god please do not speak those words in front of our network executive or in front of the producer that is a woman that Like, is that offensive or do you think that?

[341] Yes, it's offensive.

[342] So I got to be honest, that particular one does not offend me. And I am quick to be like, I'm quick to be like, yo, that's a bullshit like such a goddamn mouth when people say some crazy shit about black people.

[343] But that one, I mean, I'm sorry.

[344] I almost feel like I'm like, oh, I should be offended.

[345] But I don't feel offended by that one.

[346] Only because, like, I'm hassling my friends a lot right now too about like, why don't you guys, come on, man. Like, why are we playing basketball on the weekends?

[347] Why don't we, whatever?

[348] And - But white people are doing that too.

[349] A hundred percent.

[350] So I am staying.

[351] I don't know.

[352] But I will say, but look, I'm the first to say, yeah, Hillbillies don't give a fuck about COVID.

[353] Like, it's obvious, I'm saying, I'm like, yeah, they don't give a fuck.

[354] There are little in -groups within the white world that I'm also saying that about.

[355] They don't seem to give a fuck.

[356] There's actually no judgment even.

[357] And again, I'd do a similar thing, like their life expectancy.

[358] What's that?

[359] You said they care less.

[360] Not they don't care.

[361] Oh, right.

[362] But here's what I know.

[363] Wait, I don't want to proceed if I'm...

[364] No, I just...

[365] That's different than saying they don't care.

[366] Because then you could say hibblis don't care.

[367] Blah, blah, blah, blah ,s don't care.

[368] But if you say a group cares less, that is different.

[369] That's making a generalization about an entire group of people.

[370] Can I say what, okay, I have my thoughts together now.

[371] Like, it's not funny time anymore.

[372] Now it's like, when someone who I care about listens to this and I don't want them to judge me, here's my truth.

[373] I think the sentiment of what Dax is saying is accurate, which is that we live with the threat of tragedy constantly, which is why we are good at a lot of things also.

[374] We live with and understand a sense of urgency and a sense of the moment and a sense of acclimating to unideal circumstances.

[375] There are a lot of different things out here that could try to cause us harm, And while this one is super important and very dangerous and very scary, yeah, we're just kind of used to scary stuff.

[376] So, I mean, my sister has twins coming and she already has a two -year -old.

[377] So, like, my parents are taking every precaution.

[378] I haven't seen my family.

[379] We never go this long without seeing each other.

[380] I haven't seen my family since last January, maybe, maybe even longer than that.

[381] And so it is a generalization.

[382] I mean, it's a provocative thing to say, Dax.

[383] And so, like, as comedy, it is.

[384] is, I think, like, there is probably a kernel of truth in it.

[385] If Dax were to say, like, I don't think black people understand this pandemic, which you didn't.

[386] That's not at all what I think.

[387] You know, I would take offense to that.

[388] And then we would do this whole, like, you know, brer.

[389] Well, here's the thing.

[390] Part of me is I don't believe in the whole colorblind things.

[391] So let me just say this.

[392] I've also said it about older people.

[393] I'm shocked that all of our parents don't give a fuck.

[394] They're the ones that are most vulnerable.

[395] And almost across the board, every person I know who has older parents, they don't seem to care as much as us.

[396] Oh, wow.

[397] And that's fascinating.

[398] And then I go, well, why?

[399] And I go, oh, I get it.

[400] Fucking time is limited.

[401] And they're not going to risk not living their life for two years if they maybe only have four or five years left.

[402] Like, I don't go to they're dumb.

[403] I go to, there has to be a plausible explanation.

[404] But so I'm observing that about older people in my orbit.

[405] They don't seem to care as much.

[406] And then I'm observing it about my black friends.

[407] and people who work in the music industry and all these anecdotal things, I almost feel like it would be me pretending I'm colorblind to also not observe it about when it's going to leave that one group out.

[408] I'm observing it about everybody and I'm being vocal about it, but I'm going to leave black people out because I'm colorblind or something.

[409] That feels weird to me. We're getting deep.

[410] Well, yeah, yeah.

[411] I think that here's the complexity that underlies, right?

[412] It's like, that statement is an opinion of your own.

[413] It is unrearched, but it's observed and you as a six, two and a half rich white guy can speak it out loud, you know, with the girth of your chest and like because of your perceived sort of intelligence and wisdom, whether or not somebody knows you just because you have that description, somebody else might take that and be like, yeah, black people don't care as much about this shit.

[414] Exactly.

[415] Because that tall rich white dude said it.

[416] I totally agree.

[417] There's a responsibility.

[418] Can I add one more thing to it?

[419] I'm sorry, but you were being slightly reprimanded here.

[420] You know, not even.

[421] Just like the slightest bit of like pushback on your theory came in the way of like, that's not cool to say.

[422] And I watched you do it.

[423] You shrunk your body and you said like, oh, wait, like not if I'm going to get in trouble, right?

[424] And like that also is like the danger is, you know, if we're going to have this back and forth, now I'm not trying to twist the knife and you.

[425] but like that is often what happens when you get into an argument with someone really privileged is they're like you know what i don't need to win this one i'm white like and they kind of just let you have it but then like the decisions end up getting made by the person who had the opinion stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare we are supported by you cora how excited are you to have your Cora in your life.

[426] I am so excited because they have all these awesome products, and one of them is testing yourself to see if you have a UTI, which I think is so helpful because otherwise you have to go to the doctor.

[427] They do a urine test.

[428] It's a whole thing.

[429] And they get worse as you go days and days and days.

[430] So if you can't get an appointment for two days, it's just getting worse.

[431] Right.

[432] So you want to catch it early, and I just think this is awesome.

[433] Well, listen, you've tried cranberry.

[434] Now it's time to try something that works with Eukora.

[435] Eukora makes effective urinary track health products that allow you to finally be proactive.

[436] And no, it doesn't matter how much cranberry juice you've chugged or how diligent we are with peeing after sex.

[437] If you're doing everything right and still need support, it's time to try Eukora.

[438] All you got to do is mix a packet of Eukora with a glass of water and drink it after the deed.

[439] It's easy, effective, and it tastes like pink lemonade.

[440] Get proactive about urinary track health with Eukora.

[441] right now yukora is offering 20 % off when you go to ucora .com slash dax but hurry this is a limited time offer go to yukora dot com slash dax to get 20 % off your order it is spelled uq o r a dot com slash dax we are supported by toshy toshy toshy the future of toileting has arrived okay it's technically been around for centuries but hideously expensive costing thousands now The brand new Hello Tushy 3 .0 modern bidet attachment is here to level the playing field.

[442] It's stylish, eco -friendly, easy to install, and affordable.

[443] Hello Tushy 3 .0 doesn't just cleanse your butt with a precise stream of fresh water.

[444] It cleanses itself.

[445] Before and after it is used with the smart spray automatic self -cleansing nozzle.

[446] It attaches to your existing toilet, requires no electricity or additional plumbing, and cuts toilet paper use by 80%.

[447] So the Hello Tushy Biday pays for itself in a few months.

[448] That's great.

[449] Because with Hello Tushy, you don't wipe at all.

[450] Just poop spray, dry, and go, and sanitation is simple.

[451] The Shmuch Shield offers easy cleaning and the knobs are naturally anti -microbial.

[452] Already got a tush on your pot?

[453] Upgrade to the new 3 .0 model.

[454] If you're new to the revolution, join millions of happy Hello Tushy customers right now and have a clean butt with every flush.

[455] Go to hellotushy .com slash armchair and get 10 % off your order and free shipping.

[456] Well, here is, and we're going to get smack into the heart of your book and that great New York Times article that with your op -ed that was out.

[457] Thank you.

[458] As we keep saying, there's like layer after layer after layer.

[459] So at first, it's just I make a very generalized statement about all black people, which is ridiculous.

[460] On the surface, it's just plain ridiculous, right?

[461] But at the same time, it's what I feel like I'm observing, whatever.

[462] Then if Monica says, that's crazy and that's racist, and then now I feel bad, and then now Monica's in a position that she has to fucking come.

[463] comfort me and console me. And that to me is the darkest aspect of the whole cycle.

[464] That's the one that if I were y 'all, I would be furious about.

[465] And then you are furious, but like when people are mad, they can only take it out on people who have less power than them.

[466] So like, you never have to deal with the curiosity.

[467] I'm just going to let that be a word.

[468] And I was thinking about it and like, this is a big opportunity for me, right?

[469] If I could just paint the picture, right?

[470] Like, you have, everybody comes on this, like, Justin Timberlake was on this show a week ago, right?

[471] And here I am, first -time author, fewer than 5 ,000 Instagram followers, you know, like, Spunky, you know?

[472] Like, it's trending in my direction, but, like, you know.

[473] A man on the rise.

[474] A man on the rise.

[475] But I don't know.

[476] It's like, quote, unquote, it's not great for ratings if this were another industry or whatever.

[477] But when I come here, the power dynamic is such that I know.

[478] that I have to push the limits, I have to be provocative and interesting enough that it makes for good radio podcasting.

[479] But if I go too far, if I'm too honest and I hurt Dax's feelings and he says, you know what?

[480] Fuck this.

[481] We're pulling this interview.

[482] That is really bad for me. And that is like what black people and people of color and women and gay people and trans people are walking around with at work every day is like, God, I have to be bold enough to make a mark, but I can't hurt somebody's feeling so bad that I get kicked out the club.

[483] Yes.

[484] If I can just reassure you, I've never pulled an episode and you are free to hurt my feelings.

[485] And this is the greatest place in the world, to be overly honest.

[486] Okay, so when you were in Silicon Valley, I want to get back to your book, that was so fucking thrilling, by the way.

[487] I'm glad we brought that up.

[488] And I'm, that's so important that you just said that.

[489] That's so true.

[490] When people say, well, we have 25 % black people working at our company.

[491] It's like, yeah, but that doesn't mean they have the same opportunity.

[492] That doesn't mean their voices are equally heard because they're doing that dance.

[493] Yeah.

[494] And no big company with 25 % black people.

[495] Except fucking Rikers.

[496] Yeah.

[497] Please God.

[498] I also want to add.

[499] Take your time.

[500] Okay.

[501] I'm in such a rush because I'm having so much fun.

[502] Like we really did something.

[503] Like we were brave.

[504] Just now?

[505] The thing?

[506] Yeah, yeah.

[507] Oh, that's great.

[508] I love to hear that.

[509] That's awesome.

[510] We weren't safe.

[511] We weren't safe.

[512] And if it's too much, Monica will protect both of us.

[513] I really will, yeah.

[514] Oh, thank you.

[515] Feel free to cross the line.

[516] I mean, does that mean, will you patrol my Twitter mentions as well in that regard?

[517] I'm just kidding.

[518] Yeah.

[519] She's smart enough to not go on Twitter.

[520] Yeah, exactly.

[521] But anyways, a couple of times when you were talking, I was reminded greatly of the Martin Luther King quote.

[522] When you talk about Silicon Bailey, which is like, beware of the white liberal.

[523] And when I read that, I was.

[524] like, oh man, I have been that white liberal a bunch of times.

[525] I've been like, guys, look at the progress.

[526] Progress, progress.

[527] It's a slow, like, and I was like, oh my God, I'm the guy.

[528] I am the white liberal sometimes, often probably.

[529] And yes, the power dynamic is exactly what you just said.

[530] And that's a reality.

[531] And the kind of breakthrough I had just thinking about this was I loved Ice Cube, loved Ice Cube, was my favorite in high school.

[532] Yeah.

[533] You know, expressedly, critical of the white patriarchy.

[534] It didn't bother me at all.

[535] And then I used to falsely compare it to like if a black person heard someone singing that was white and was being critical of the black community, I used to think, well, look, can't you just look at it like I look at it like, oh yeah, that's his point of view.

[536] This is this point of view.

[537] And then of course, I've now come to realize like the big difference is I'm not going to get pulled over by Ice Cube.

[538] And then I'm not going to go to court and Ice Cube's the judge.

[539] and then I'm not going to go to the job interview and Ice Cube's the judge, but if I'm black and I hear the white singer saying that, they have all the fucking powers.

[540] So it is a much different threat.

[541] But that blew over my head for a long time.

[542] Like, oh, it's just both people are being critical of one another.

[543] Aren't those the same?

[544] No, it's not the same because you should have genuine fear if you hear that opinion expressed and then you recognize every single person in a position of power is white.

[545] Yeah, I mean, you said it.

[546] And it's, that is equivalent.

[547] And I would say beyond the point that you're making, which is that the power lies behind, you know, the hand of the white person in that regard, I just also don't.

[548] When people are like, I mean, I never hear them say it, but I see the behaviors.

[549] When people don't like black people, I'm like, I don't get it.

[550] The data shows that black people don't really cause harm to anybody else because of that power dynamic.

[551] The data shows that like we are in so much higher risk to be kidnapped.

[552] arrested, shot, hurt, abandoned by white people.

[553] So I don't really even get it.

[554] Is it when you, I don't know, it's like spill the milk in your house and then you're mad at the milk?

[555] Like, I don't get it.

[556] Yeah, I have yet to research this, but I really want to.

[557] I was watching the Pistorius 30 for 30, whatever.

[558] I'm not saying his name right, but you know who I'm talking about, the Blade Runner?

[559] Yep, yep, South African.

[560] Yeah, South African.

[561] And he shot his girlfriend.

[562] Yeah.

[563] And my first thought was, oh, wow, they have handguns down in South Africa.

[564] Oh, that's interesting.

[565] Who else has handguns?

[566] And then I thought, I bet you there is a correlation between who has handguns in their country and who had slaves or who had apartheid.

[567] Again, I want to do the research, but it just popped into my head.

[568] I guarantee there's a fucking correlation there.

[569] I wouldn't be surprised.

[570] Yeah, I mean, who feels like they need to defend themselves all the time?

[571] And by the way.

[572] The only reason you're pretty fearful that that's going to happen is because you have systematically created so much harm and trauma that you should have a realistic fear.

[573] Like my favorite quote recently is, you should be lucky we don't want revenge, which is true.

[574] And I do think in the back of everyone's mind is an awareness whether they could tell you.

[575] We got some fucking skeletons in our closet.

[576] I got to protect myself.

[577] You know, like, I think it's in there.

[578] Yeah, I mean, Dax, I got to tell you, you're like, man, I like some dark, edgy stuff.

[579] And, like, you're like my friend who I have to see only, like, once every six months because I'm like, okay, well, when I see this person, I know we're going to start talking about some craziness.

[580] So I did an interview.

[581] Can I do a name dropy interview?

[582] Oh, please, please, please.

[583] So I did Brne Brown's podcast a couple days ago.

[584] And she wrote a forward to your book, too, right?

[585] She did.

[586] She did.

[587] And she's been, as I cross over, she's been one of the white people who likes my stuff.

[588] So that's really nice.

[589] Championing.

[590] Yeah, indeed.

[591] Yeah.

[592] So I think I need to be specific about that.

[593] As white people become aware of what I do, she has been one of the big ones who has been sharing that.

[594] I'm not crossing over, guys.

[595] I'm staying where I'm at.

[596] But Ice Cube said, crossover, watch the money pile up.

[597] That's a fact.

[598] That's a fact.

[599] That's why I got to make sure I don't get this episode pulled.

[600] So she asked me a question, this is the one, you know how you do a whole interview and like the one thing that you said a dumb answer to is the one that you remember obviously.

[601] Yes, yes.

[602] She asked me, she's like, what is something that people have wrong about you or something like that?

[603] And my answer was that they think I'm mad at white people.

[604] And that's not really what I meant to say.

[605] But what I do mean to say is I am fully aware and pained by and angry sometimes and saddened by all the ways that white people have hurt, people that look like me, continue to do so.

[606] And I am coming to grips with now in my 30s, honestly, that that's something I'm going to have to live with for my entire life.

[607] With that said, I do, and I think many black people do, forgive white people.

[608] And I think that's an act of self -preservation in many regards.

[609] I can't live with constantly the feeling of non -forgiveness toward white people.

[610] It's all too intense.

[611] Like the imbalance and the crime of it is all too intense.

[612] I can't live with it.

[613] So I do think a lot of white people often are walking around with this feeling that, these black people like, when they see us, as Avaid Duvonne says, they're feeling like this person is harboring such resentment for me and they hate me. and they, you know, they think I'm responsible for what my great -great -grandfathers did and all this shit.

[614] And like, no, we're trying to get to the next moment without having any harm caused to us.

[615] That's it.

[616] That's it.

[617] So, anyway, I wanted to set that right.

[618] Also, you were really dope on Bourday.

[619] Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[620] Yeah, you were great.

[621] And that's not to say, I'm sorry, Dax.

[622] Like, every time I say something, I can then hear, like, my friends in the group chat being like, you said you forgave white people.

[623] So that's not to say, You can't win.

[624] You can't win.

[625] No, you can't win.

[626] Yeah, of course.

[627] Nah, you can't win.

[628] This is the extra layer.

[629] There's so much, God, the fact that, like, even that this is a layer you have to handle.

[630] Oh, yeah.

[631] It's just the imbalance, yeah.

[632] It's crazy.

[633] But it's not to say the same as, like, I'm not mad and I'm not hurt.

[634] I am.

[635] But, like, I have to every single day forgive just to, like, get through.

[636] life just to get through it.

[637] I think the more people focus on the systems, and I said, it's embarrassing that we have to account for people's defensiveness.

[638] It is embarrassing.

[639] But if you're pragmatic and you want change, I think if the systems are what we really put a lot of our focus on, I think that takes a little bit of all this defensiveness and, well, that was my great, great grandfather.

[640] That doesn't matter.

[641] The system your great, great grandfather designed is actually still in place.

[642] Just because he died, the system didn't die.

[643] And so as much as you didn't do X, Y, or Z, the system is still here and you're still complacent with the system.

[644] And that's what is being asked, I think.

[645] I just want to poke at it.

[646] I'm not sure if I agree.

[647] Can I just poke at it?

[648] So it reminds me of the way that we talk about corporations sometimes.

[649] We call them corporations.

[650] We call them companies.

[651] That's a fancy word for a group of C -suite executives.

[652] group of majority shareholders, a couple founders, and then all the minions that work for them.

[653] That's what we're really talking about, right?

[654] And I remember from company culture so often when there is a victory to be touted, some individual human being goes out front, stands in front of a microphone with their name under their body on the screen, and they say, my team did this, look what we did, it's so great.

[655] And when something bad happened at the company or something went awry, someone would go and do that same death walk.

[656] But instead, what they would say is we as a company had this failure because of this decision we made back then and this and that and the third thing.

[657] And they would hide behind the idea of this thing as a company that isn't just a group of individuals who are stewards of somebody's investment dollars, right?

[658] So in my opinion, when we say these systems are broken, we just got hit with a pandemic and the president that we had basically decided that he wasn't going to acknowledge it as such and so no systems were changed in a matter of days since we got this new president it's like suddenly we are making really smart really effective decisions about how to contain this thing it's not going to fix it in a heartbeat but it's literally just one dude walked out and another dude walked in And a couple people in other important offices were swapped over as well.

[659] I do believe that, and this kind of gets to that New York Times article that I wrote, I do believe that in some ways these systems are a hiding place for individual stewards of injustice who don't want to do anything bold, who don't want to tell their family members, I'm moving in a different direction because they're scared and they're embarrassed and they're not strong.

[660] That's my point of view.

[661] That's a hugely relevant point.

[662] I totally agree with that.

[663] But if we use the water analogy of the fish, I guess the system is the water in many ways where it's like, hey, look at the water you're swimming in.

[664] It's all around you.

[665] It's everywhere.

[666] It is the systems.

[667] It's this.

[668] And you're a part of it.

[669] And you can make change.

[670] And you can, you know, but some people don't even recognize that it's everywhere.

[671] I love the analogy.

[672] But I actually think that the system is the school of fish.

[673] and I think that the water is a pandemic.

[674] The water is the shit we can't control.

[675] But the fish, like, if one fish decides to swim the other direction and the school continues to go that way, nothing changes.

[676] But like if the whole, this is why I wrote that article, right?

[677] I got tired of love texts and I'm so sad about, you know, this and that.

[678] And like, this was last summer when very bad things were happening and, or I mean, they're always happening.

[679] But like when people were marching and rioting because of terrible things that were getting media attention, as they rightfully should have been, I think.

[680] And I kept getting these texts from some of my white friends like, God, this is so sad.

[681] My heart breaks for you, this, that.

[682] And it's like, these texts are so cheap.

[683] If you really feel something about this, call your dad, who we've talked about, who I know has really objectionable views about black people and other minority groups.

[684] And tell them you're not coming home for Thanksgiving until his company.

[685] Donates to the Black Lives Matter movement or something else that you find to be, you know, an effective usage of money and funds for that during this time like I think it takes like Boulder action and actually probably some real heartache for like things to to to move in a different direction.

[686] Yeah.

[687] Yeah.

[688] Well, the reason it's nuance in your point is totally right that there are humans at every lever of the system.

[689] And then there's a huge broad spectrum.

[690] There's also tens of millions of people that are just hardcore racist.

[691] Like that's also a fact.

[692] So, you know, that that's real.

[693] There's also tens of millions that aren't, you know.

[694] And even the ones that aren't still live in the exact same system as the ones who are.

[695] And yeah, I just think it's so wild.

[696] If you're a teacher, you hang pictures up on the wall, well, who do you hang?

[697] Well, we put George Washington up there.

[698] He was the first president.

[699] We put Abe Lincoln up there.

[700] He did this.

[701] We put Isaac Newton up there.

[702] We blah, blah, blah, blah.

[703] that weirdly is the system, right?

[704] So you're growing up in a box, and these are the people that you're celebrating.

[705] And that person who hung them were hanging the same ones they saw.

[706] Like, you know, someone's got to point out to them like, hey, maybe we put some other folks up there.

[707] Maybe, hey, what about some women on that wall?

[708] That'd be interesting.

[709] Yeah.

[710] Because you inherit the system, you know?

[711] That's the only part where I say, like, yeah, people are guilty and we all fucking inherited it.

[712] And it's upon us to question it.

[713] now and challenge it and change it.

[714] But it's also, this was the fucking like we got dropped into, you know?

[715] Well, yeah, I mean, there's just inertia there at play.

[716] And, well, yeah, if it's going great for you guys and you don't, and like, you don't want it to change, then fuck it.

[717] But I mean, there's these, like, incremental steps.

[718] And we call it progress when a company goes from 4 % black at the lowest level to 5 % black.

[719] It doesn't match the other stuff that disrupts powerful forces, right?

[720] Like, in technology, Yahoo is killing the game for a second and then, and ask Jeeves.

[721] And then Google pops up.

[722] And it's like, your little world gets crushed.

[723] But that's because really smart, really creative people get the power of other people's money and wealth and influence behind them.

[724] And they make something awesome and it takes over the market.

[725] Like, it's seismic.

[726] Right.

[727] So, like, how powerful that we still can't undo this other thing if we have all these smart people working toward it, or do we just have that many more people on the other side of it trying to keep it how it is?

[728] I don't know.

[729] Yeah.

[730] Okay, but back to your book.

[731] I want everyone to read Black Magic.

[732] So what you found at your experience in Silicon Valley, as you had said, there was kind of a breaking point for you, and then you decided, I'm done with this.

[733] There's a great, you said, like, I'm not going to be as good as, what do you say?

[734] I'm not going to be as good.

[735] I realized I couldn't play a white guy as well as a white guy.

[736] it's so simple but it's so good yeah so good it just won't happen so what kind of things did you start doing that where you started embracing who you really were and then what was the outcome of that it's not like cheap trite stuff right it's not like i started wearing jordan's to work every day it's not like i you know got cornrows which i think those are cultural staples of ours but they they certainly don't define blackness, it was more about I had to get back in touch with myself to like see straight.

[737] I had to get back in touch with myself to really tell the truth to say to somebody as an example, Dax, like the thing about black people not caring as much about COVID and COVID precautions, that specifically didn't offend me. But let's say you said something else that was similarly provocative and kind of slighting or whatever.

[738] And it really did offend me. I would contort myself to give you more power on that.

[739] I would contort myself to convince myself I wasn't offended so that you as a white guy would continue to feel comfortable with me. And that maybe one day, just one, I have, I have friends who went to business school and all the fancy ones and the Harvard's and the Stanford's and yada.

[740] And like every, you know, six months, all their crew will get up together, will hang out together.

[741] And I know they're the only black dude there.

[742] And they have these sort of flimsy relationships and friendships where they get honesty from the white people, but they're not really comfortable giving it fully back.

[743] And I know what they're doing is investing in a relationship that they think one day this dude's going to write me a big check for this company, you know, from his dad's bank account or something.

[744] Like, and I was doing that.

[745] There was a friend of mine who texted me something about sleeping in her snuggy of white privilege last summer when again during the marches and I would just eat it you know that text message felt gross it felt terrible it made me want to take a shower but yeah at that point in my life when I was 22 23 24 I wanted so badly to be in the club with y 'all that I was like I'll be the whipping boy whatever you know like I remember I went to a birthday party and the host he was like a real he was the descendant of a company that started a really prominent bank that I won't say the name of, but he did a toast, you know, with all the guys in the room.

[746] And it's just little things, right?

[747] Like, he made his toast, which was sexist and gross.

[748] And I won't repeat on, on this live mic.

[749] And he filled up to a good start.

[750] We're off to a good start.

[751] Right.

[752] And I gave it a laugh because, you know, I got to.

[753] I got to.

[754] I want to get in the club.

[755] And he, like, filled all the little shot glasses, but mine.

[756] And he put it down on the table.

[757] And he picked up the cheaper one and gave it to me. And he said, Chad, you probably like this stuff.

[758] And it was like, I don't know what it was.

[759] It might have been Hennessy or Crown Royal or something like that.

[760] And I just lived with it.

[761] I don't even drink anymore.

[762] But I just, I said, okay, like, I mean, those are little things.

[763] But, God, as I speak them out loud, they feel terrible, right?

[764] Yeah.

[765] So it wasn't as much just like how I presented myself or how I showed myself.

[766] But it was real decisions in moments of pain and urgency that I would choose to exalt whiteness.

[767] Yeah.

[768] Yeah.

[769] Oh, fuck.

[770] I would hate being in those situations.

[771] Yeah.

[772] We've got to stop putting people in those situations.

[773] Yeah.

[774] And like what I ended up doing in that position was I did get pretty good at it.

[775] I also got pretty good at identifying who else was uncomfortable and either creating an allieship with that person, a very subtle unstated allyship with that person, or knowing to watch my back for that person because they might be coming for me as soon as they see a spot of weakness.

[776] Monica, what's your heritage, if I could ask?

[777] Indian.

[778] Indian, okay.

[779] Yeah, I have a friend who went to small liberal school in the Northeast.

[780] He's got a click of probably, I don't know if they hang out as much anymore.

[781] We're not 30s.

[782] Nobody has friends.

[783] But at the time, they had like a group of 30 kids, let's say they all hung out every weekend.

[784] And I used to hang out with them sometimes, like and show up or whatever and be alone, but there was one Indian kid in the group who I always got along with.

[785] He kind of knew how to Dap, you know, he kind of knew how to like, we saw each other.

[786] But they, there was a running thread in their friend group, which was that so -and -so is such an asshole.

[787] He's always, he's always sliding.

[788] He's always, he's always waiting for a moment to, like, poke somebody.

[789] He's always undermining somebody.

[790] And it was clear and obvious to me from the first moment.

[791] But I was like, this dude is isolated.

[792] Like, he's tired of being at the bottom of this totem pole all the time.

[793] And when I suggested that to my boy, who's really my boy, and I do love, and he's going to hear this and be like, he's honestly going to hear this and be like, damn.

[794] But I suggested it to him.

[795] And it was like, in 10 years of knowing this kid, he had never considered at all once how it must feel to be that dude.

[796] And then ultimately, you left there.

[797] You were like, okay, I'd be guessing, but is some of it, you're like, okay.

[798] I actually, I don't know that it can be my true self here.

[799] I don't know that there's the place for me to be my true self.

[800] It was a couple things.

[801] So it was definitely that.

[802] I was definitely watching people get promoted and get, like, new opportunities.

[803] And I got some cool opportunities to there.

[804] One of them was I got to work out of the London office for a little while.

[805] And that was the best experience I had at that company because I was living somewhere where it was interesting to people that I was black.

[806] Oh, let's see what this guy's about.

[807] with what felt like a genuine curiosity.

[808] And that's not to say that there's not racism in other countries against black people.

[809] There certainly is.

[810] But in this experience, for me, I kind of got to grow into my voice a little bit because I didn't feel like I had to play a character role in the same way.

[811] So when I came back and I thought I was going to get to bring that new voice back to the New York office with me and then I realized, I'll never forget, there was one particular meeting and I won't say this person's name either, but my team was mostly, you know, white women.

[812] and I worked in HR.

[813] There was one person who, again, I forgive and I actually do really think she's dope.

[814] She was always like a little bit short, like a little curt with me. And I think she could tell that I wasn't that comfortable in my job.

[815] And, you know, when I worked in London, I was so bold.

[816] I was always like, I would tell people how I felt.

[817] If somebody said something in a meeting and I thought it didn't make sense, I would speak up for myself.

[818] And I did that in a meeting with this particular person.

[819] And her reaction to that was, yeah, well, nobody asked you, and that was it.

[820] And like, and the room, no, you know, no one ran to save me. Like, nobody said that's not how we talk to each other on this team.

[821] It was just kind of like, that was it.

[822] My voice was dead.

[823] And I decided I had to get out of there.

[824] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[825] We are supported by liquid death.

[826] Sad fact, if we don't get plastic production under control, plastic pollution will outweigh fish by 2050.

[827] Oh, God.

[828] Liquid death helps you stay hydrated and say death to plastic.

[829] That's what the death is about, Monica.

[830] Like that?

[831] Yes, by now everyone knows you're supposed to drink lots of water.

[832] Do we do it?

[833] No. I love liquid death because it's in a can.

[834] It's in a big can.

[835] It's a ton of water.

[836] And I can just grab it when I'm leaving the house.

[837] And it's awesome.

[838] And I don't feel super guilty about having plastic.

[839] So many of us go through life dehydrated.

[840] By the time you feel thirsty, you've needed water for a while.

[841] That's why I always keep a few liquid deaths in the car as a delicious way to murder my thirst.

[842] Liquid death actually helps you drink more water.

[843] Easier to chug a can and way more fun.

[844] No cap.

[845] you just finish it.

[846] The water is 100 % mountain water from the Alps.

[847] Tapped at the sources, purified, while keeping 100 % of the original mineral profile, by the way.

[848] And by minerals, they mean electrolytes not just good for you.

[849] They murder your thirst instantly.

[850] You can find Liquid Death at Whole Foods, 7 -Eleven, or if you've been to Texas recently, Walmart.

[851] Get two free coosies with your first order of any case of water at LiquidDeath .com slash DAX.

[852] Just hit up their merch store, add the coozy two pack you want, and you'll get it for.

[853] free with your first case only at liquiddeath .com slash dachs.

[854] We are supported by Spotify's Renegades Born in the USA.

[855] Spotify and Higher Ground are launching a new podcast, Renegades Born in the USA.

[856] This is so unbelievable.

[857] Like this news traveled like a natural disaster.

[858] My dad sent me an email.

[859] Yeah, it was all anyone talked about on set the other day.

[860] President Barack Obama and Bruce Springsteen sit down to discuss the country that's given them boast so much, chronicled the stories of its people, and connect their own search for meaning, truth, and community with the larger story of America.

[861] They seem like unlikely friends, two men with very different backgrounds and career paths, yet they built a friendship on their shared sensibility and a belief in the American ideal.

[862] In renegades, born in the USA, we get to eavesdrop as they reminisce about their hometowns, role models, explore manhood, fatherhood, and growing up in America, and examine the sometimes painful distance between the American dream and the American reality and they get into some trouble with a joyride in bruce springsteen's vintage corvette don't miss renegades born in the usa episodes are available now on spotify listen free only on spotify when you decided to write the book you ended up interviewing 200 people yeah and 15 of the people made the book telling their story and how they found their black magic and one of the things you said is that You found that a lot of the people you interviewed feared backlash and that black celebrities were probably the most fearful of that.

[863] And I just got curious about that.

[864] Yes.

[865] So to do a hyper fast forward, right?

[866] So I left Google, go to a tech startup.

[867] I'm a millennial.

[868] I want to get rich.

[869] I think I'm like going to be Mark Zuckerberg.

[870] Didn't happen.

[871] Kaplan bought the startup.

[872] I didn't have any equity.

[873] I got a tiny little check of like some token of goodwill or whatever.

[874] So I left Kaplan.

[875] I was, I just left a big corporation.

[876] I'm like, I'm definitely not working at another corporation.

[877] And I was an arts kid growing up.

[878] I went to an arts high school.

[879] I've been a writer my whole life since I was three years old.

[880] And I was like, let me try it.

[881] I got to take this shot.

[882] I'm 18 months away from 30.

[883] I was turning the corner.

[884] I could see it coming.

[885] And I didn't want to not get my shot up.

[886] I wrote a TV pilot sitting outside in Fort Green on Lafayette Avenue, sitting outside Baba Cool Coffee Shop.

[887] I look up 20 feet away.

[888] Spike Lee is sitting there, scrolling as BlackBerry.

[889] So I get up, I walk over.

[890] It's like this part is the part that people are going to think I'm lying.

[891] I get up, I walk over, I introduce myself as a Moorhouse dude.

[892] He went to Moor House.

[893] He pulls me a chair out.

[894] We talked 30 minutes.

[895] A month later, probably.

[896] I'm on my first, first class flight with Spike to Hollywood.

[897] We pitch all over town.

[898] What?

[899] And BET buys the show.

[900] And suddenly now I'm like, I'm a Hollywood writer.

[901] I sold my first show.

[902] Show never got made.

[903] None of them do.

[904] Don't feel bad.

[905] Wow.

[906] I'm like, how is there TV?

[907] Right.

[908] So I was super broke after I left the corporate world.

[909] Here's my sad story.

[910] I was living in like a 250 square foot apartment in Park Slope, which is an expensive place to live in a tiny little apartment with no furniture, a mattress on the floor, you know, canceled all my subscriptions, that whole thing.

[911] Did the thing that so many people say happened to them when they're trying to make something happen.

[912] And when Spike kind of swooped me up in that regard, it's not like I got any money, but it just...

[913] felt like I saw one side of the Rubik's Cube come into alignment.

[914] And it was like, okay, I don't know how to get the rest of this thing how I want it.

[915] But like, I see that there's this one.

[916] If I just do the thing I think I'm good at, then this thing works.

[917] And then one opportunity led to another led to me having the vehicles to write this book that I had wanted when I was 25, which is how are black people supposed to make it?

[918] through this corporate maze.

[919] This is a labyrinth.

[920] This is crazy.

[921] Like, as I really started to pay attention and look at the numbers and, you know, one percent of Fortune 500 CEOs are black, that means five total.

[922] I'm like, this is a crazy lottery.

[923] This is, the odds are so stacked against me. How am I supposed to do this?

[924] Because that was my dream at the time, I decided that the way to figure it out, I didn't think I could find the answers on Wikipedia.

[925] I used to go to, you know, Greenlight bookstore in Fort Green and read every self -help book.

[926] I, uh, Tim Ferriss, Tim Ferriss, please, please listen and hear me on my voice.

[927] I used to read the four -hour work week and like tools of titans and good to great and outliers and zero to one.

[928] Any self -help book, didn't care about the person's politics who wrote it.

[929] I would read Peter Thiel's shit.

[930] Like, I was just like, where are the answers?

[931] Where are the answers?

[932] Where are the answers?

[933] There were answers there, but most of those answers were about how to systematize around a problem.

[934] they did not obviously speak to how to do that while black.

[935] And so I decided I need to write the book myself.

[936] So I went and asked a bunch of people, 200 people, and I now had access to a bunch of Hollywood people.

[937] But it seemed to be that the larger the platform, the more careful, I will say diplomatically, people wanted to be about offending white people by telling the truth about the experiences that they had had along the way.

[938] Well, really quick, it's a lot to ask of somebody to risk their financial security.

[939] You know, that's another shitty position that black folks are in, which is like, yeah, I'd love to have the freedom to tell you my opinion, but it could cost me. It's not going to cost you.

[940] Right.

[941] And also, you know, at the time for a writer with no track record, you know, somebody who, like, this guy basically just popped up in a black t -shirt and asked me, maybe I know him a little bit through this person, through that person, through this person.

[942] but like, why would I give this person that type of scary, dangerous, valuable truth?

[943] So what ended up happening was that the best interviews I got all came from people, one, from people I actually had relationships with who trusted me and knew I would do a good job, even though I had no track record.

[944] So scientists, activists, media executives, pastors, tech entrepreneurs, investors, investors, real estate agents, like black people who I looked up to, who I knew well, between the ages of 35 and 75, and that came from all over the, like, all over the map.

[945] You know, the last interview is probably my favorite, which I know I'm not supposed to say, but it's by 65 -ish black pastor of a church in Brooklyn with a congregation of fewer than 50 people who was a prolific social worker.

[946] He goes into prisons and works with the inmates.

[947] He goes into...

[948] Is this the ex -addict?

[949] Like ex -addict, ex -a -thiest, right?

[950] Ex -athist.

[951] He was an atheist.

[952] And I don't like to bucket that with some other, you know, real afflictions, I guess, that he was suffering from.

[953] Right, right, right, right.

[954] But he is an ex -addict.

[955] He had one leg.

[956] He was an atheist.

[957] He had been murdered.

[958] But he had done a lot of crazy stuff.

[959] I mean, he was suicidal.

[960] He was an addict.

[961] He was sticking up off -duty police officers at one point in his life.

[962] And he grew up in the Jim Crow South.

[963] and he hated his black skin.

[964] And that was at the source of most of the ills in his life was he just, he hated himself because he was black and because it was so hard to live with that color of skin in this country.

[965] And that eventually became his gift, his ability to relate to people who had these afflictions because they hated themselves.

[966] It becomes their superpower, as you say.

[967] You interviewed Spike Lee, as you already said, Jason Crane, Jewel Burks, Ed Bailey.

[968] Yeah, DeRay McKesson.

[969] I just want to say, I did not interview Spike Lee in the book.

[970] I recount some of my experiences working with and being basically shepherded by Spike Lee, but he is not an interview in the book.

[971] Would we call him the high watermark of not being an apologist?

[972] He's bold, man. I've seen him walk into Netflix and Amazon and wherever and tell people the truth.

[973] Tell people, why, there are no black people working on this floor.

[974] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[975] You know, I respect him.

[976] We've all been there.

[977] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[978] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[979] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[980] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[981] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[982] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[983] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[984] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[985] What's up guys?

[986] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you It's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[987] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[988] And I don't mean just friends.

[989] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[990] The list goes on.

[991] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[992] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[993] Well, dude, this has been a fucking blast.

[994] I was going to attack one aspect of your New York Times thing, but now I don't even want to do it because I just adore you.

[995] Can you do it?

[996] Let's do it.

[997] I'm curious.

[998] So I totally love, and of course this is just because of my egocentric thing.

[999] So your New York Times piece, which I really encourage people to read because it's awesome.

[1000] I don't need love texts from my white friends.

[1001] So I'm with you on all of it.

[1002] They wrote that headline, by the way.

[1003] The only issue I had was they say repeatedly, you know, feel free not to respond.

[1004] Which you interpret as you're not.

[1005] also taking control of whether or not I can write back to you how I feel about this.

[1006] The only thing I want to say about that was I say that a lot to people, and not to black people, I am very codependent as a person.

[1007] So if you send me something that's so fucking annoying, I'll actually spiral about the fact that I got to respond to this fucking thing.

[1008] I don't want to respond to this thing.

[1009] So I regularly, as an act of true benevolence and kind of say, listen, don't even respond.

[1010] This is my issue.

[1011] You are not obligated to respond to this.

[1012] I want to relieve you of any guilt you have about not responding to this thing I needed to get off my chest.

[1013] So that was the only part that I was like, this is the least generous interpretation of that that you could have, which is I'm going to control you.

[1014] Whereas when I do it, I'm really trying to liberate any other codependence when I say that.

[1015] Do I have to respond?

[1016] No, we can cut the whole thing out if you want it.

[1017] No, that was a joke.

[1018] Oh, fuck it.

[1019] I'm right over my head.

[1020] That's right.

[1021] I should have said you don't have to respond.

[1022] You know what?

[1023] You don't even have to respond to this.

[1024] God, I thought it was such a good joke.

[1025] I, like, had it for the whole time that you were talking.

[1026] But I did listen.

[1027] It's a couple of things.

[1028] I mean, like, first of all, I love how you brought this up.

[1029] You're like, there's something in your article I'm going to attack.

[1030] It's like, okay, let me get in my defensive stance.

[1031] Let me get in my counterattack stance.

[1032] It's like, er.

[1033] Br your sword, Chad.

[1034] Right.

[1035] I mean, the thing that's on your chest, I don't want it on my chest.

[1036] Like, you know, you said the way you were describing it was it was just like, oh, I have this thing.

[1037] And I just, oh, it's just, I have to get it off of me. It's like, get it off somewhere else.

[1038] Like, go work out.

[1039] Like, I don't want it, you know.

[1040] And so I understand what you're saying.

[1041] I'm empathetic to it, right?

[1042] I am, like, the question I had at the beginning of this is like, I now have a phone full of text messages.

[1043] saying congratulations that I think I have to reply to, right?

[1044] I understand you're trying to alleviate someone from that, but like, I guess it does sort of feel like they're trapping me, and I can feel their anxiety in sending it.

[1045] And that anxiety gives me anxiety.

[1046] Yeah, yeah, it's contagious.

[1047] Yeah, so save it.

[1048] It's what you said earlier about having to make the other person feel good.

[1049] Like, they say, I feel like I'm a snuggy wrapped in privilege, and then you have to say, well, no, or yeah, or, you know, like, yeah, it's like, maybe just don't say it.

[1050] Maybe just do something, take an action to help fix some of these issues instead of relieving yourself by putting it on me. I'm having, like, the deepest feeling of imagining sending that.

[1051] Yeah.

[1052] That's a ruffie.

[1053] That's a ruffie.

[1054] That's a...

[1055] I mean, I appreciate the point.

[1056] I really do.

[1057] I just...

[1058] I called to Lib Queli to ask him what charities he likes.

[1059] that we could donate money to.

[1060] And even that, when I hung up, I was like, he's probably getting so many calls like this from white people.

[1061] Like, where do I give my money?

[1062] But I'm like, I trust his opinion better than my own on what's an effective cause.

[1063] But I didn't apologize to him.

[1064] And I didn't say, what do you think?

[1065] Was that wrong?

[1066] Do I, I mean, I don't know your relationship, you know, but I will say, like, work is work.

[1067] I got a bunch of those myself.

[1068] After I wrote that article, I got, you know, people saying, And I'm not going to stop texting you.

[1069] You know, I'm going to continue to do that until you, it's like, oh, my gosh.

[1070] What?

[1071] Nice try, Chad.

[1072] I'm coming back harder and with more guilt next time.

[1073] With more love and guilt.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] And it's like, oh, God, yeah.

[1076] Boy, what do we think about this?

[1077] What's the verdict on me asking to live who we should donate money to?

[1078] It's true.

[1079] I mean.

[1080] I asked Joy to.

[1081] too.

[1082] I know.

[1083] She seemed a little annoyed.

[1084] She said, ugh, I'll get back to you.

[1085] But also, I really do see both, too.

[1086] Because also, Joy did have a good answer.

[1087] She said, well, don't give here because everyone's giving here because they don't know.

[1088] So actually, here's some other ones.

[1089] And so, you know, it's all messy.

[1090] It's all messy and awkward.

[1091] Here's a provocative question, because I have a, I do.

[1092] have friends who got gift cards during that time from their white neighbors and like, Vimbo deposit.

[1093] I swear to God.

[1094] Oh, boy.

[1095] So to throw it back to you, though, like, what if Joy, what if her response had been an invoice?

[1096] Like really, seriously, what if her response had been like, send it to me, I'll figure it out?

[1097] Or just like, send it to me. Well, if she said send it to me, I'll figure it out.

[1098] I would have trusted her to do that.

[1099] Okay.

[1100] Send it to her, no. She was on a TV show.

[1101] She was fine.

[1102] Fuck that.

[1103] No, I want to help somebody.

[1104] She's doing fine.

[1105] Would she be making twice as much if she was white?

[1106] Yes.

[1107] But is she making enough money that I don't have to help her?

[1108] Yes.

[1109] Oh, that's a whole not.

[1110] You guys have another hour and a half?

[1111] Yeah, exactly.

[1112] But it was a substantial amount of money.

[1113] It's not like I called to Lib Quali and said, hey, I'm going to donate $20.

[1114] Where should I do it?

[1115] No, this was $100 ,000.

[1116] I wanted to make sure it fucking went somewhere that really messed.

[1117] Yeah, I wasn't like, hey, I want you to know I'm a good person and I'm going to donate $20.

[1118] It was like, no, we said we're going to donate a substantial amount.

[1119] I want to make sure it goes to the right place.

[1120] Why, I mean, because these are real things.

[1121] I got a text from someone in the book who's interviewed in the book who said, a mutual friend of ours reached out and asked me, where should I send some money?

[1122] Same situation.

[1123] And she was doing so to share the annoyance with me of the additional labor being at of her to act as a donation consultant.

[1124] Like, all this work is work, you know, and it gets compounded by that sort of transference of labor, basically.

[1125] Like, Dax, you know how to, like, I don't know, man, you're smart as shit.

[1126] Look what you've done in your life.

[1127] You know how to figure something out.

[1128] I'm not a Black Lives Matter activist, and TILB is.

[1129] So, like, if you're going to upgrade your car, you better text me. I'm going to tell you what Supercharger is good.

[1130] I'm going to tell you which ones the bearings are good or bad.

[1131] That's my shit.

[1132] He's a fucking activist.

[1133] Yeah, I'm going to ask him.

[1134] Yes, I could dedicate the next week of my life to figure out which one actually gets the most amount of money that's not corrupted by some fucking 30 -year -old premise of how to help black people.

[1135] Or he could call the dude that literally was on the ground in Ferguson and say, hey, where do I send this money?

[1136] That is an important distinction is that he's an activist because the person who I'm referring to is a CEO.

[1137] She's not an activist.

[1138] She has a lot of shit going on.

[1139] And also, while we're here, I am not an activist.

[1140] I'm a writer.

[1141] So I don't want those problems thrown at me either.

[1142] I just want that to be clear.

[1143] Okay.

[1144] All right, good.

[1145] So we won't ask you.

[1146] But since then, we've had many activists on.

[1147] We know where to take money.

[1148] We've learned a bunch about.

[1149] And that's part of what we're doing is just like, yeah, everyone do their own work and, like, listen to people talk and make your own decision instead of just like running to the only black person you know and asking them all the questions.

[1150] questions.

[1151] Yeah.

[1152] Well, you're awesome.

[1153] I really want people to read black magic.

[1154] I think the people that you got to talk to and the stories they tell.

[1155] And again, I don't think this is just for black people to get their groove back.

[1156] I think this transcends.

[1157] And this is a lot about knowing who you are, loving who you are, leading with who you are.

[1158] Would you say that's fair?

[1159] No, I love that.

[1160] Let's be frank here.

[1161] Like most of your listeners are white, right?

[1162] The majority, yeah.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] So if you have a black friend, a black colleague, a black babysitter, a black whatever, there's a bunch of stuff that person is afraid to say to you and they should be.

[1166] And they shouldn't say it.

[1167] I don't think they should say it.

[1168] It's probably in this book.

[1169] That would be my way to sell it.

[1170] Yeah.

[1171] Well, the one thing I liked about Chelsea Handler's special she did was she was like, this isn't their problem.

[1172] This is our problem.

[1173] Like we got to talk about that you're a little nervous.

[1174] You didn't like it?

[1175] No, I mean, it's both of our problem, but we can't fix it.

[1176] It's our problem to fix.

[1177] That's what I guess she was saying, which I agree with.

[1178] So, yeah, like the stupidest stuff that's now, thank God finally getting attention, like, hey, don't touch black people's hair.

[1179] Let's just let's not do that.

[1180] Sadly, that has to be told to people.

[1181] So guess what?

[1182] There's a million other things like don't touch black people's hair that you're not in a consensual coitus relationship with.

[1183] Still ask.

[1184] Yeah, I know.

[1185] That was the first thing that Joy said to me. me she said you can do whatever don't fucking touch my hair i was like good good heads up oh dope so yes this is also for everyone these are the things that they're afraid to say and it's valuable and i'm glad you did it thank you i appreciate this time man thank you yeah it was really really fun i hope you it was fun this is my serious voice now but it was really fun and you there's no way you repeated everything you've already said i know for sure we got new shit out of you i'm positive i didn't say any I did this thing for my hometown, like a bookstore in D .C. last night.

[1186] Not my hometown from Snow Spring.

[1187] But my mom was like, just one.

[1188] She's like, can you just not say the F word?

[1189] Your grandma's going to be listening.

[1190] And then later she was like, oh, you're going to wear your nose ring?

[1191] And can you just choose one cursing or nose ring?

[1192] Tell her that is anathetical.

[1193] That's literally the book.

[1194] I know, right?

[1195] I'm trying to sell books, mom.

[1196] All right.

[1197] Well, Chad, I hope we talk to you again, man. Be it on the TV show you sell or another.

[1198] book you write or whatever it is.

[1199] Oh, I got a podcast coming.

[1200] Can I say that?

[1201] Yes.

[1202] Yes.

[1203] I can't even say who the distributor is quite yet.

[1204] I can't even really say the title.

[1205] What I will say, though, is it is provocative and sexy and a lot of black people are going to be involved.

[1206] My co -producer is Amanda Cowper, who's a field producer on the Seth Meyer show, and it's going to be so tight.

[1207] I hope you all will follow me at Chad Sand and just like me, please.

[1208] Wait, you're, we already do.

[1209] We already do.

[1210] That part's done.

[1211] moving on now to making you a hugely successful in the podcast space.

[1212] So, at Chad Sand, not Sanders, Sand.

[1213] At Chad Sand.

[1214] Yeah, that's right.

[1215] Yeah, there's a gay porn star who is named Chad Sanders, who has all the properties already.

[1216] He's very successful.

[1217] Good for him.

[1218] Yeah, he's a beast.

[1219] I want to see his work.

[1220] I do want to see his work.

[1221] And that's at IG or that's Twitter or that's everywhere.

[1222] That's Instagram.

[1223] I'm at Chad Sand.

[1224] And on Twitter, I'm at Chad underscore Sand.

[1225] And again, stay off Twitter if you want to feel good about yourself.

[1226] I'm going to.

[1227] Okay.

[1228] All right.

[1229] This is a great conversation, man. I'll talk to you again.

[1230] Thanks, y 'all.

[1231] Bye -bye.

[1232] Later.

[1233] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1234] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[1235] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.