Matt Damon

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm back Shepard.

[2] Who are you joined by?

[3] And I'm joined by miniature moosey.

[4] Miniature moose.

[5] Why are you doing the intro today?

[6] Is it Monica Day?

[7] I think it might be.

[8] Yeah, it's Monica Day.

[9] All day, every day.

[10] Matt Damon is here.

[11] Boy, oh, boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy.

[12] What the heck.

[13] Oh, boy.

[14] I hope everyone has a change of slacks.

[15] No one did it play on this unless they got a lot.

[16] a backup pair of unmentionables and slacks.

[17] I hope everyone's smiling from ear to ear throughout the whole thing because I sure did.

[18] I think we both did.

[19] Yeah.

[20] It is really funny to be sitting next to someone in an interview and feeling like you like him 100x because that seems impossible because I adore Matt Damon.

[21] I mean, he is one of my all -time favorite actors.

[22] But I was so overshadowed by your love that I felt I don't even deserve to be here.

[23] Of course you deserve to be here.

[24] Okay.

[25] Well, that's good.

[26] On a scale of 1 to 10, how cool do you think I played it?

[27] A 10.

[28] Oh, thank you.

[29] It was kind of similar to when we talked to Ben Schwartz about you having been in love with him, where he was like, yeah, this is how it was.

[30] And there was this element of like, it's not that way now, just so, you know.

[31] It was very chill and very cool and very rad.

[32] Thank you.

[33] Yeah.

[34] Radical and chill, which is hard fucked up.

[35] Yeah, I was way more energized.

[36] On the inside.

[37] Yes.

[38] It was extreme.

[39] It was full body tingle.

[40] the whole time.

[41] For real?

[42] Yeah.

[43] Oh my God, I'm so jealous.

[44] I think at one point I really did almost pass out.

[45] Really?

[46] At what part?

[47] At one point I was like, oh, I feel like dizzy.

[48] But I think maybe because I like stopped breathing or something because I was listening too hard.

[49] Oh, man. What an experience.

[50] I don't need to tell you any of this, but Matt Damon is an Oscar award winning and Golden Globe award winning actor producer and screenwriter.

[51] His credits include Goodwill hunting, Jason Bourne, the Martian that departed, Ford versus Ferrari, the informant, the Oceans movies, and he has an incredible movie out that I watched prior to the interview called Stillwater.

[52] He's fucking awesome in this movie, Stillwater.

[53] And I watched it with Kristen, and she too was obsessed with it.

[54] She insisted we finished it the next night, which is very unlike her.

[55] It is a great, great movie, Stillwater, so please check that out and enjoy Matt Damon slash Monica Padman episode.

[56] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[57] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[58] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[59] He's an armchair expert.

[60] This is beyond exciting.

[61] I love what you're doing with the place.

[62] I hear that's three and a half years in the making.

[63] Yeah, what do you think so far?

[64] Do you want the name of our contractor?

[65] I couldn't believe when he told me that was three and a half years.

[66] I was like, oh, my fucking God.

[67] Oh, yeah.

[68] We did this in Florida about 15 years ago where I think I lived in Florida for five years, and I think the house was under construction all five years.

[69] And then we just fucking left and went to New York.

[70] Yeah.

[71] That's enough.

[72] The only thing that has made it all tolerable is that I own a house like a thousand feet that way, that I've lived in for 16 years.

[73] Oh, cool.

[74] Okay.

[75] Which now my sister owns.

[76] So we weren't.

[77] and uncomfortable we would just like come over here and we'd have like a picnic and yeah it's gruelingly slow and as you can see we're far from the finish line yeah the whole place is dirt but you just got to see water in the pool which has never been seen by anybody that's today's this is novel fantastic yeah so congratulations you got to see it first swim that's great i have to ask before we get started have you been prepped in any sense has anyone ever told you anything about the show no okay great i got i got i got to i got to get right into it okay okay Monica.

[78] I co -host the show.

[79] That's something to say.

[80] Yes.

[81] This is a two -person operation, Monica Padman from Georgia and myself.

[82] Monica has seen Goodwell hunting.

[83] It would be incomplete to even guess over a thousand times.

[84] Oh, wow.

[85] Way more than that.

[86] Yeah.

[87] And to the level where in school, she would close her eyes, this is my favorite part of it.

[88] She'd close her eyes and watch it frame per frame.

[89] And she could just sit there and watch the whole movie in her mind.

[90] I had it on VHS, I would watch it, and then I would rewind and watch it again.

[91] And then once they came out on DVD and then you guys had a commentary, then I would watch the commentary over and over and over again.

[92] I know a lot of people that are into a lot of things.

[93] I've never met anyone that was as into one thing.

[94] Monica is into Goodwill.

[95] That's awesome to hear, though.

[96] Thanks.

[97] Not to make you so uncomfortable.

[98] No, it doesn't make me uncomfortable.

[99] That's really cool.

[100] I hope I can remember enough about it to answer questions if you have any.

[101] Well, that's what I was thinking is like, what am I going to ask?

[102] Can I guess that she knows way more than you about the movie than you do?

[103] I'm positive of it.

[104] I can't even get my kid to watch it.

[105] Oh, God.

[106] Yeah, it's like a thing.

[107] She's missing out.

[108] Oh, my God, I got to show you one more thing.

[109] I rewatched it last night in prep.

[110] Yeah, it's a big deal.

[111] And every time someone comes in here who's from Boston, the question is, do you know Matt and Ben as an entity?

[112] Have you met Matt and Ben?

[113] Do you know Matt and Ben?

[114] That's a go -to question.

[115] So when people are in the show, they get one of these, right?

[116] So for Monica's birthday, I did you, but the initials for the name are W .H. Will Hunting.

[117] That's right.

[118] So that hangs in her dining room.

[119] And we often record in there, and then we post pictures and people are like, who's W .H?

[120] It looks like Matt Damon, but you guys haven't had Matt Damon on.

[121] Anyway, so this is what you sat down into.

[122] I would want to know.

[123] All right, good.

[124] And I thought maybe you would want to know.

[125] And more will be unraveled as we go.

[126] All right, all right.

[127] She has a tattoo on her back.

[128] No, no, no, not yet, not yet.

[129] Has Ben done the show yet?

[130] No. No, no, no. We have had Casey on, though.

[131] We have it.

[132] Okay, cool.

[133] And we talked about Good Well, Honey, and I want it because we're there already.

[134] Let me just say that I too loved it.

[135] My first movie with a girl I dated for nine years was that movie.

[136] And we sat on the carpet of the movie theater because every seat was taken.

[137] And it was sold out.

[138] And I was like, let's just go.

[139] We'll buy a ticket to whatever.

[140] Transformers.

[141] knows what and then we'll just go in when we did when we sat on the floor and it was a seminal moment in my life that movie and i have a theory that i hit casey with and i kind of want to hit you with it all right well let me first ask you how would you explain its success like what about that movie do you think captivated people i don't know ben and i when we wrote it we always talked about just wanting to let the way it's funny you talk about a vhs we used to talk about it in those terms too He said, if it's just a tape on our mantle, we want to love it.

[142] We kind of stumbled into a very wise strategy, which is just, you know.

[143] Make the movie you want to be in it.

[144] Exactly.

[145] Yeah.

[146] That's a hard lesson to learn.

[147] It is.

[148] And we had a lot of chances to make different versions of it.

[149] Right.

[150] And we didn't do that.

[151] It kind of has the lore of Rocky.

[152] Like, did you remember growing up and learning that Rocky?

[153] Like that Stallone had written Rocky and then they tried to buy it off of him.

[154] Believe me, that's why we were able to do Goodwill Hunting.

[155] Isn't just knowing that story about Stallone?

[156] His journey made ours possible.

[157] Oh, wow.

[158] So, no, did you know you were using it as a North Star?

[159] It was 100 % of North Star, and we used to refer to it.

[160] Because the story we heard was that he was offered.

[161] I heard it was like $35 ,000, which in 1975 or whenever he had a pregnant wife and he was broke.

[162] And we knew where he lived in the same kind of neighborhood in West Hollywood, we were told.

[163] We were pointed out the house that we lived in where Ben was like sleeping on our couch.

[164] because he had had this engagement that had broken off.

[165] And so we were writing kind of in a living room that had all of his shit in it and where he would sleep.

[166] And we knew that Stallone had lived just down the street and that does it all happen?

[167] And had experienced all the same things.

[168] Yeah, yeah.

[169] But basically, studios loved it and they wanted to bite.

[170] And he said, I have to start it.

[171] And they said, no. And they offered him some outrageous sum of money to just let go of the script and not be in it.

[172] And then he took nothing.

[173] And he was broke when he turned down the money.

[174] Wow.

[175] Because I think Ryan O 'Neill was a big movie star, and they wanted Ryan O 'Neill to do it.

[176] Can you imagine if it had happened that way?

[177] Yeah.

[178] Because Ryan O 'Neill was excellent.

[179] Yeah.

[180] It would be such a different movie, though.

[181] And Rocky was, God bless him, too.

[182] Not a vain project.

[183] No, no, no, no. He's playing kind of a dummy who has similarly kind of the heart of gold in these washed up.

[184] You feel so, have you seen Rocky?

[185] No. Oh, my God, really?

[186] Maybe that'll be my new Goodwill Hunter.

[187] You're going to retire Goodwill Hunter.

[188] Yeah.

[189] Well, in your defense, if you're only aware of Rockies 3 through 6, you don't understand the first movie was like a legitimate that was nominated for best movie, or maybe even won.

[190] It was nominated.

[191] I might have won.

[192] I can't remember, but it's just the end when he ain't going to be a rematch, don't want one.

[193] Like, oh, God, it's just like.

[194] And how playfully is with Adrian and their little love affair is so beautiful.

[195] Oh, she's playing and he's dumb.

[196] Yeah.

[197] I think them for real, but it's beautiful, yeah.

[198] It's so good.

[199] Good.

[200] Okay.

[201] Do you want to hear my theory on why the movie was so successful?

[202] Sure.

[203] I think we all feel special and unseen as humans.

[204] We feel like, God, I know I have something special about me. No one's noticing.

[205] We feel lonely and we feel unseen.

[206] And that was like wish fulfillment for all of us.

[207] Like, he is special.

[208] This janitor is so special.

[209] Secret genius.

[210] And he's got this secret power that no one's observing.

[211] and now people are going to observe.

[212] That, to me, is what was so catchy about it.

[213] I've never thought of it in those terms, but that could very much be true.

[214] Something connected.

[215] Well, I was on the outside at that time looking in.

[216] So I lived in L .A. I'm auditioning.

[217] I'm not getting any work.

[218] Brutal, lonely feeling.

[219] And I see this movie and I'm like, now I don't think I'm a genius, but I also think, like, I want to get recognized.

[220] Like, I want this moment to happen for me. Well, that's interesting because actually that would be the context in which we wrote it.

[221] We would have been doing exactly what you were doing.

[222] which is auditioning and not getting anything and feeling like we had something to offer.

[223] And you did.

[224] Like it wasn't arrogance.

[225] That movie was brilliant.

[226] And you did.

[227] You had something.

[228] And yeah, I just think that's the most special encouraging thing about that movie is like, oh, yeah, I think.

[229] That's cool.

[230] Yeah.

[231] I like thinking of it in those terms, actually.

[232] That's a nice way to think of it.

[233] But it would have been born out of the exact same feeling that you know very well.

[234] Uh -huh.

[235] I was terrified in my early 20s that I was going to die because I felt like I was going to die without, like I had something to give.

[236] I had something to give.

[237] Talking about this.

[238] Literally, we interviewed some this morning and I was saying that this person had airplane anxiety and I said, you know, I don't have it because I have no illusion of control.

[239] Like I am a long for the fucking ride.

[240] If it goes down, what am I going to do?

[241] Get up and get involved.

[242] Like I enter going.

[243] Well, you do think you're going to get involved.

[244] Well, I do think that, but that's a side note.

[245] But for years, for 10 years in L .A., when the plane was about to crash, I would think, oh, you fucking loser, man. You didn't do a thing.

[246] Like, you're going to leave and you didn't accomplish one of your goals.

[247] And it was.

[248] so weighty and painful.

[249] Yeah.

[250] Now that you bring it up, I had a terrible fear of flying in my early 20.

[251] And now it's not at all.

[252] Yeah.

[253] Not that I want to go where I want the plane to crash at all, but like, I don't want to die, but when I'm up there, when I think, okay, this is it, we're going down.

[254] I do think, man, I had a good fucking life.

[255] And I'm grateful.

[256] And this is a totally happy success story.

[257] And I'm lucky.

[258] That's exactly how I feel.

[259] The first thought of be about my kids like i don't want to be here for them of course but for my own stuff i don't have any complaints i know i know i get kind of sometimes i get distracted by the notion that we evaluate life by its longevity as opposed to like what happened in the period of time i don't know when paul walker died i was like naturally i was sad that that dude died he was apparently was a nice person on all accounts but at the same time i also was like like i had an incredible life he probably had maybe amounted to five people's lifetimes in this short period of time how do we want to evaluate it you can die early and it can still be a success story i think it can but there's certainly aspects i mean i just remember reading about his daughter and i just was so sad you keep bringing the children up and that's the good thing to remind ourselves of yes i mean i have too as well there's your subjective i look at all the travel i've been able to do and all the things i've seen and by the fact that this job and the era in which i was born and it is a number of lifetimes the way we get to kind of move around the world.

[260] And so in some regards, yes.

[261] And then in other regards, there are those primary relationships that you want to nurture forever.

[262] And you can have a, quote, successful life and be on the plane and not feel happy or that you lived the way you wanted to live.

[263] Like, the success doesn't equal.

[264] Right.

[265] It's like, what are you calling success?

[266] It's going back to that thing about the tape on the mantel piece.

[267] Yes.

[268] Well, let's put it this way.

[269] It is not an equal scale.

[270] so the pleasure of success does not equal the pain of failure for me right like the pain of failing for many many years was ever present and I thought about it all the time I don't walk around hourly going like god damn look at this this is good shit check me out but I did walk around when I was not accomplishing what I was trying to do and it's all I thought about and I was like yeah and I was hyper aware of everyone else that was doing so well like even you I remember watch that movie and going like well great this fucking guy can write like a bandjubes She too, huh?

[271] It's hard to be generous when things aren't going your way.

[272] When you're desperate, yes.

[273] Yeah, and I remember that.

[274] I certainly remember feeling like, oh, the ugliest parts of myself are kind of laid bare when there's a scene in this movie where Adam Driver's character shows me this kind of estate that he's been given by our overlord that I really wanted.

[275] And Ben and I laughed so hard when we...

[276] I'm like, so he just, he gave this thing.

[277] That feeling, and Ben and I, When we were writing it, we were like, so you got the lead in the Scorsese movie.

[278] Oh, well, that's, you know, suddenly we were like 22 -year -old actors going, like, oh, fuck that guy.

[279] How could he?

[280] Yeah.

[281] Why they cast him?

[282] Can you remember what age that switched for you?

[283] Because now I can, no and all my shittiness, I used to spread so many rumors about Vince Vaughn.

[284] I was just so intimidated by his talent and I wanted to be him.

[285] They're like, if I heard any smidge and I would tell anyone I heard, and I'm like, now I think about it, I'm like, what is shithead I was?

[286] But I was just, just jealous and intimidated by his.

[287] skills.

[288] Yeah, yeah.

[289] I became more generous when things started going really well for me, probably.

[290] I think that all the time.

[291] It's easier to be a good person when you're like showered and stuff.

[292] Yeah, yeah.

[293] Yeah, that's right.

[294] Well, it was at Martin Luther King who said your character is tested by who you are in times of adversity.

[295] Right.

[296] I think I was think about that.

[297] There's just really no excuse when you're in these positions to be an asshole.

[298] Like, you really can't.

[299] Yeah, when people tell me that I'm, oh, you're so nice.

[300] I'm like, how could I, you mean, how else would I be?

[301] Like, can you imagine how much energy it would take to be an asshole?

[302] Well, you just said exactly what I've been experiencing for the last few years, which is people will say like, oh, you're really kind or you're generous.

[303] And I think, I'm not.

[304] I'm actually like a greedy little shit pig.

[305] But I've been given so much stuff.

[306] I can actually be generous now.

[307] Like, it's not an accomplishment.

[308] I didn't work on myself to come this way.

[309] I have done no work on myself.

[310] But do you remember, like, was there an accomplishment or was there a movie?

[311] Was there anything where you were finally like, oh, yeah, I'm done with that.

[312] I'm rooting for everyone now, and I'm not scared anymore.

[313] I remember when I did Courage Under Fire, this is a supporting role, but I remember I worked so hard on it, and I had to permanently damage yourself, yeah, perhaps?

[314] Yeah, I mean, I definitely was on, I had to take medication for like a year and a half, and I fucked up my, like, adrenal system.

[315] It was like, I was, I did a number on my body, but it just took a lot of discipline.

[316] And I was really proud of how hard I worked, like, that I did it.

[317] And I looked at the performance, and I was like, that's good.

[318] That's my idea of what is good.

[319] And when the movie came out, I didn't understand about, like, press kits.

[320] I didn't understand that the media was kind of directed to talk about the things the studio wanted them to talk about.

[321] And it was like, Denzel Washington, Meg Ryan, Lou Diamond Phillips.

[322] It was like the big stars in the movie.

[323] Sure.

[324] And so when I started reading reviews of the movie, I wasn't mentioned.

[325] Oh, yeah.

[326] And I remember I was like 25 years old, and I remember thinking, well, I can't do it better than that, so I should probably quit.

[327] Maybe the business is telling me, like, no, man. If I can't get notice.

[328] Yeah.

[329] And then there were, I still remember, a friend from San Francisco sent me the San Francisco Chronicle.

[330] And the reviewer in the San Francisco Chronicle, I don't know if it was still Mick LaSalle.

[331] He was doing it back then, but singled me out and spent the review kind of talking about me. And I remember thinking, well, that someone gets it.

[332] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[333] Someone sees me, right?

[334] Like, to your point about being seen.

[335] Like, I have something and nobody sees it, you know, but it's there.

[336] I believe it's there.

[337] And then when somebody tells you it's there, you know.

[338] Yeah, it's wind in your sales, right?

[339] It, like, kind of can propel you.

[340] Absolutely.

[341] Yeah.

[342] I have to admit something to you, this is so embarrassing, but it's the truth.

[343] So my second movie of my life was this movie, Idiocracy, and I gained 40 pounds for it in, like, three weeks.

[344] So I gained all this weight.

[345] And mind you, I know I'm in a comedy.

[346] I know I'm in a Mike Judge comedy, but I had the most arrogant thought where I was in my trailer.

[347] Again, my second movie, I'm 29 or something, and I've gained all this weight, and I think, you know, you could get nominated.

[348] I mean, they don't nominate people in comedies.

[349] Oh, my God.

[350] But I start having this whole fantasy where I could potentially get nominated for an Academy Award on my second movie because I've gained 40 pounds.

[351] And I think we all have this De Niro thing in her head, like, Raging Bull.

[352] So yes, if I'm you, and I went the other way, which is way harder, know that De Niro didn't Ray Jean Bull, and then no one even comments on it, yeah, that's not supposed to add up that way.

[353] Yeah, well, it's just funny you say that.

[354] Like, Ben and I always tell the story.

[355] There's a movie that came out in the 80s, late 80s, early 90s called Fat Man and Little Boy.

[356] Oh, about the bombs.

[357] About the bomb.

[358] And the story that we heard was that the crew, they had a pool of how many Oscar nominations the movie was going to get.

[359] Oh, my God.

[360] Can you imagine how fucking mortifying that would be?

[361] Oh, my God.

[362] You know, like the prop guy's like, you know, guys, I'm going to say six.

[363] I think only, stop it, Gary.

[364] No, no, just six.

[365] I think we might not get every, we might not get them all.

[366] No, it's going to be 15.

[367] Well, we're sweeping all the tech stuff.

[368] Clearly, we're going to, yeah, exactly, right?

[369] The conversations, like, behind the scenes, and we're like, that's our nightmare, right?

[370] Yeah, yeah.

[371] Of ever being.

[372] So, by the way, good for you for admitting that you had that conversation with the mirror in your trailer.

[373] Well, listen, I can say that because it literally flips.

[374] on a dime which is it's either that or it's what a fraud i am how'd they let me in on this thing i suck i'm the worst person about so right another example of that is every time christin i attend like the academy awards or night before party the week leading up to the thing i am telling myself everyone there is going to look at me and go why did they let this guy in he's like he was unpunked why is he here that's my whole feeling the whole week i'm a piece of shit everyone's going to be embarrassed i'm there still still on the right home home from every one of these events, I'm literally in my head thinking, I might be the most popular guy in Hollywood.

[375] I think I knew everyone there.

[376] I think everyone was excited to see me. I think I was the life of that.

[377] I literally, there's no zone where I'm okay.

[378] But that's your operating zone.

[379] You're at a zero or a 10.

[380] That's an addict brain.

[381] That's what happens.

[382] When you started going to all those parties, what kind of racket was in your head?

[383] Well, the first year, so we went from watching the Oscars on TV to being in the front row.

[384] Receiving one.

[385] Yeah.

[386] it was really like there was absolutely no yeah you're like an athlete recruited out of high school you're like a high school or a year later you're famous movie yeah and those parties in that weekend right before those the two nights before the Oscars or whatever at the time Patrick our agent who we've been with the whole time he now owns WME he's one of the fact of yeah Patrick Whitesill also suspiciously good looking agent can we just yeah Robert Duval told me 30 years ago that I had to fire him because I couldn't have an agent who was better looking than I was He's better looking than every actor he represents.

[387] Oh, you've got to get rid of that guy.

[388] I'm like, Bobby, what do you mean?

[389] He's great.

[390] He's my friend.

[391] Can't have an age.

[392] Better looking than you are.

[393] You're like steak, Matt.

[394] Best steak in the world.

[395] So you've met him.

[396] I did a movie with him a few years back, and I just was like, every time I was around him, I just put record in the tape recorder in my head.

[397] I'm like, I want to remember every word he says.

[398] I worked with him in 93.

[399] We did a movie called Geronimo, and I had lunch with him every day.

[400] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[401] I just loved him.

[402] He was a hero of mine, too, as an actor.

[403] I'll just tell you this.

[404] So before the table read, we meet him.

[405] Again, I'm having, like, imposter syndrome.

[406] I don't belong in this movie.

[407] Well, I meet him.

[408] He's all over the place, man. He's talking about jujitsu and steak and all this stuff.

[409] And I don't know.

[410] It's just a very chaotic kind of first conversation.

[411] And then he sat down for the table read.

[412] And I was like, oh, wow.

[413] I don't know that I've ever worked with someone who a word can't come out of their mouth.

[414] That doesn't sound real.

[415] Like, just another, a whole other gear I've not witnessed.

[416] Yeah, it's like one of the best actors in the world who's now 90.

[417] You know what I mean?

[418] It's like there's just nothing he can say that will ever appear false to you.

[419] You know, it feels so fucking true.

[420] And when he sat down and he started doing that thing, I was like, oh, he can still do that thing at 100%.

[421] Like, he can do that.

[422] So talk about not belonging.

[423] The year of Goodwill Hunting, I was nominated as an actor.

[424] And the other nominees in the category.

[425] And I remember this because we still have the picture.

[426] It was Jack Nicholson, Robert Duvall, Dustin Hoffman, and Peter Fonda.

[427] Oh, my God.

[428] That's probably the biggest nominee group ever.

[429] So we took a picture at the luncheon, and they printed it in the Boston Herald, and my father called me. He was howling laughing.

[430] He goes, it looks like one of those things at Disneyland that you put your head in.

[431] Because I look like a deer in the headlights.

[432] I'm like, what the fuck am I doing in this picture with these guys?

[433] And it made it into the local newspaper.

[434] so we cut it out and framed it.

[435] But also what's, I think, crazy, maybe hard for you to process is now, if that picture happened, that would be normal.

[436] It would be totally normal to have you in a picture with all those people.

[437] Yeah, it's like Matt Damon and it's Daniel being losing.

[438] Well, that's nice.

[439] I still feel like the kidded with his head in the thing.

[440] That's good.

[441] Yeah, it must have looked like the valet ran up to give one of those guys their keys or something?

[442] Yeah.

[443] Like, how did this young kid get in this photo?

[444] Yeah, no, it's really, it's really.

[445] And there's the Boston thing, too, of like, you're not all that, bro.

[446] Oh, I know.

[447] We love taking you down a peg.

[448] I know.

[449] The specificity of the Boston thing is like, oh, yeah, good for you.

[450] Yeah.

[451] Every sentence is basically like, don't think you're hot shit.

[452] Right, yeah, exactly.

[453] Wait, the agent, there was a story.

[454] Oh, right, right.

[455] So you were going to party.

[456] Right, that year of Goodwill Hunting, they didn't do, like, CAA invites you to.

[457] It was like, Ben Affleck and Matt Damon invite you to the CIA party.

[458] Now, meanwhile, so Ben and I are like, we can start.

[459] started calling it our party.

[460] Right, right, right.

[461] Because as far as we were concerned, it was our party.

[462] Like, who's coming to our party?

[463] Meanwhile, there's only three parties, and everyone goes to all of them, right?

[464] So that was a huge one for us.

[465] Like, we're, like, walking in there, and it was every single per...

[466] It was Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise and Sean Penn and fucking Robert De Niro.

[467] We were like, what the fuck?

[468] They're all at our party!

[469] At your party.

[470] But, yeah, so that was a big one.

[471] It must be so much more fun to be sharing the fish out of water experience with someone.

[472] like you basically got to do it with a wife i don't know how people do it by themselves it's so surreal just the getting famous thing is really surreal it really is can i ask what your specific like thing that you were like oh i wasn't anticipating this the relentlessness of it what it took me i think years to realize was that nothing in the world changes right the big things are still the big things Israel and palestine you know everything's the same yeah and intellectually you understand that but your subjective experience is never going to be the same right right it's like somebody rewrote a little bit of code in your subjective experience and so your world is entirely different yeah but the world is exactly the same and it's a real mind fuck and so i was lucky that i was 27 because i had i lived through my 20s slugging it out falling on my face getting rejected a lot yeah living a real life yes and so i had some context for what was having happening to me. Yeah.

[473] And I also had real friendships and a great family and a real foundation that I could lean on.

[474] Yeah.

[475] But I've never felt so fucking unmoored.

[476] It's a real weird thing.

[477] And it's really hard to explain the comprehensiveness of it to somebody to who didn't happen.

[478] And rightly so, there's really like no empathy on the table there.

[479] Like, of course, why would I feel bad?

[480] Or even want to explore how that could be bizarre because you're Matt Damon and Yeah.

[481] Right.

[482] Of course.

[483] You don't, yeah, you certainly don't want to speak.

[484] seem to be complaining about it because it's also something that's for some fucking weird reason coveted in our society so yeah right and because the world is still the world the real intractable problems in the world still take absolute precedence over anything concluding your little subjective experience so you shouldn't cry about it right yeah so you don't well okay so i don't know exactly where you're from i mean i know you're from cambridge but i do know boss and i've worked there i know the vibe there it's not super dissimilar to detroit where i'm from So here was one really weird aspect for me Was all growing up If I sat down at Denny's And then you're a man And I stare at you And you stare back at me And I hold my fucking glare at you You guys are going to the glory hole I wish I'm I telling you were going outside Oh yeah Yeah it was going one of two ways Yes But dudes regularly Dad's left restaurants And fought in the parking lot Where I grew up It was very good You could not stay at someone in the face and then if they stared back and you held it that was a fuck you you you'll look away so i was getting over a lot of like these men just staring at me and then i look at him like what's up right and then they just halt because they're watching tv but i'm looking at a person that was really uncomfortable i'm like i felt like i was getting in a fight all the time wow yeah again it's your subjective experience becomes very different like the world changes in the way the world treats you is different and so all of the normal cues that you're using to reading and understanding don't apply to your life anymore.

[485] So you have to kind of relearn everything.

[486] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[487] And you're like kind of predicting interactions that now have this way different spin to them than all the other versions you've had.

[488] But again, look, we obviously can't complain about it nor would you want to.

[489] We're not complaining.

[490] I think we're observing what it's like.

[491] I feel good about that.

[492] Your experience is still your experience.

[493] Right, no, we're, I guess, explaining the experience.

[494] Yeah.

[495] And we're all prisoners of our fucking subjective experience.

[496] Exactly.

[497] No matter who you are.

[498] Right.

[499] We know what we know.

[500] and we're blind to what we're blind to.

[501] I could see it making someone really paranoid and making their world very, very, very small.

[502] That's a real thing.

[503] That's very, very true in my experience.

[504] And in fact, the people who get famous younger, I've noticed they get pushed into a smaller experience.

[505] I remember the first time I met George Clooney a long time ago, he said, how you doing?

[506] And I was like, I'm okay, man. And he was like, don't let him keep you inside.

[507] Oh, wow.

[508] And when we subsequently work together on Oceans 11, I said, that really was profound and wonderful what you said to me. And he goes, well, I should footnote it.

[509] He said, Paul Newman said it to me when he met me. Oh, wow.

[510] That's a good tip.

[511] It's a great tip.

[512] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[513] Come what may, don't let it.

[514] Yeah, keep living.

[515] Right, right.

[516] Because I have another friend who recently said something I thought was great, which was just say yes.

[517] He goes, you know what's going to happen when you say no. You're going to stay in your house.

[518] So say yes to life.

[519] When someone says, hey, do you want to go do this?

[520] yes I do I'd have no fucking idea what's going to happen but something's going to happen and it's called living your life yeah can I tell you one of the most unforeseen aspects of getting sober that I would have never accounted for was I went on my first vacation sober and within an hour I was like oh my goodness what does one do on vacation because all I would do is like I'd order a drink which would turn into 15 which would turn to me meeting people which would turn in me going somewhere Like, I never had a plan on a vacation.

[521] I was just order a Jack and I, and then the fucking vacation took off.

[522] But as a sober dude, I was like, I don't want to sit by this pool forever.

[523] I don't want to talk to anyone sober.

[524] I don't want to, like, what the fuck am I doing here?

[525] You're with like, you're at someone's house in Jamaica, and you're like, what the fuck?

[526] Who are you?

[527] Yes, it's lovely.

[528] So you've got to kind of force yourself to like to re -engage in that behavior without the other thing.

[529] Right.

[530] Which is like, yeah, let's do it.

[531] I'll probably regret this, but I'll say yes.

[532] Oh, my God.

[533] Kristen was doing press in Cancun, Mexico for a movie, and I went with her.

[534] And during the day she had a driver, I'm like, I heard there's a great restaurant downtown in the heart of Cancun.

[535] So I go with the driver, we're chatting the whole way, very friendly guy.

[536] He's, oh, yes, I've heard of this place.

[537] It's the greatest everyone loves it.

[538] And he said, did you have, have you ever eaten here?

[539] And he said, no, no, no. And I said, well, come in.

[540] Let's eat together.

[541] So we have this lunch together.

[542] It's really lovely.

[543] And then so by the time we leave, we're bros now.

[544] And he says, I'd love to introduce you to my girlfriend.

[545] I'm like, perfect.

[546] So we go to this house, and I meet this woman in the middle of Cancun, and she doesn't know who I am at all, but he's telling her to Google me. So she Googles me. And just by seeing that many images came up, she got excited.

[547] And then can we take a picture?

[548] Yes, there's no really to stand.

[549] Will you sit down and she'll sit on?

[550] Anyways, it's just all kind of like, I just kind of come to, right?

[551] And there's this young woman in a skirt sitting on my lap, and I'm in this little house in Cancun I was like, well, you could write any story based on this photo.

[552] It's very incriminating.

[553] And I got back And I had tell Kristen, like, so look, through this many turns of events, I ended up in a very tiny house with a young woman on my lap and a photo.

[554] And who knows if that gets out?

[555] Another thing to make you paranoid, there might be pictures of you.

[556] Who knows?

[557] In this house holding a woman I never met.

[558] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[559] We've all been there.

[560] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body, sudden fevers and strange rashes.

[561] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[562] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[563] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[564] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[565] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[566] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[567] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[568] What's up, guys?

[569] It's your girl, Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[570] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[571] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[572] And I don't mean just friends.

[573] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[574] The list goes on.

[575] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[576] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[577] Okay, so one brother or two?

[578] One.

[579] And you're younger.

[580] Yeah.

[581] How much younger?

[582] Three years?

[583] Okay, parents got divorced at two.

[584] I was three.

[585] I have a five -year -old older brother.

[586] Okay.

[587] Mom raised you, right?

[588] Yeah.

[589] And my dad was very much there.

[590] But we would go every Tuesday night, every other weekend.

[591] It was one of those.

[592] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[593] And the neighborhood you lived in was it, was it hard scrabble, would we say?

[594] Yeah, it was a blue collar neighborhood.

[595] Yeah, and so, I don't know.

[596] In my blue collar neighborhood, like, manliness was everything.

[597] And I didn't have a dad around going like, you're on track, son.

[598] So I was very drawn to like whatever boys were doing.

[599] I was just insatiable for that male approval.

[600] And I wondered if you experienced any of that.

[601] No, my dad was such a part of our lives that I wasn't seeking that out elsewhere.

[602] Okay.

[603] We played a lot of sports.

[604] I was an artsy kid.

[605] I loved doing theater.

[606] And we lived in kind of a, what we called a co -op house, kind of like a commune.

[607] It was like six families inside?

[608] Yeah.

[609] Yeah.

[610] Yeah.

[611] So it was a triple -decker, but it was like a double -wide triple -decker.

[612] Right, right, right, right.

[613] There were six families instead of three.

[614] It was like the Hot Wheels container you put the cars in.

[615] Exactly.

[616] It turned up.

[617] It's a massive rectangular box of joy.

[618] Kind of a hippie, kind of left.

[619] lefty, but in a real neighborhood, all kinds of people.

[620] And, I mean, it was idyllic in a lot of ways.

[621] It was.

[622] Yeah, really.

[623] It was really wonderful.

[624] And did you think your brother was the coolest guy on the planet?

[625] He was definitely the coolest.

[626] He was actually the coolest guy on the planet.

[627] He actually was.

[628] Yeah.

[629] This is the one guy who was.

[630] Yeah.

[631] And the difference from me, I think, then from you, is the three -year difference.

[632] What that allowed was when I got to high school, he was a senior.

[633] Right.

[634] So I was, like, protected.

[635] Yeah, were you?

[636] Yeah.

[637] It was 3 ,000 kids in that school.

[638] It was a tough school.

[639] Right.

[640] I was a little kid and you were yeah till my junior year oh really yeah the first time i see you in my life is um school ties which i loved right and it's a brandon fraser vehicle sure that's his movie yeah absolutely and then there's this guy this guy is so good looking and he's in such good shape i remember as a boy who you were five years old i'm like look at this fucking body really yes so i assumed you just looked like a gymnast your whole life a gymnast In that movie, you look like a gymnast.

[641] I guess so, yeah, yeah.

[642] Yeah, you got the deltoids and your fucking jack, and laughs, the whole nine.

[643] I haven't seen it in 30 years, man. I would love to sit with you and watch it because I would pause it with a laser pointer, and you are looking as good as a human body can look in that.

[644] Well, I was fucking 20 years old, man. Oh, but, you were doing...

[645] I turned 21 on that movie.

[646] And did you work out a lot?

[647] For the movie, yeah.

[648] For the movie?

[649] For the movie.

[650] So that movie, school ties, I don't know how many times we auditioned, but we must have auditioned 25.

[651] times.

[652] And it was like one of those things.

[653] You get pulled in with groups and you, you know, and Chris O'Donnell's in the movie, Cole Housers in the movie.

[654] Ben and I both tried for Brendan's part.

[655] Everyone tried for Brendan's part.

[656] And then they go, no, maybe you're better for this guy.

[657] Maybe you're better for this guy.

[658] We did screen tests at Paramount.

[659] I'll never forget.

[660] Oh, wow.

[661] It was a big deal.

[662] And then they found Brendan.

[663] That was another one because Chris got sent of a woman before school ties came out.

[664] And so the press packet on school ties was all about Brendan and Chris.

[665] Yeah, of course.

[666] So, again, I'm like, I got overlooked on that way, you know what I mean?

[667] I was like, I remember going like, I'm into this dude.

[668] I really like this dude.

[669] And he's the bad guy, but I'm kind of drawn to him.

[670] Oh, that's good.

[671] When did you, did start with Goodwill for you?

[672] Yeah, I was in eighth grade.

[673] That was my intro.

[674] That was my intro.

[675] But then I went back.

[676] Then I did all.

[677] You did do school times.

[678] Yes.

[679] Because he's great in it and the body's off the charts.

[680] You should know, since you don't listen to the show just so you don't feel uncomfortable.

[681] Dax loves male bodies.

[682] It's not just yours.

[683] Yeah, I have a can.

[684] calendar here with all my favorite male bodies.

[685] Yeah, there's lots of male bodies in there for him.

[686] Again, the whole guy thing and not a dad, like, I thought Schwarzenegger looked great.

[687] Like, oh, that's a great way to look.

[688] We were kind of jaded.

[689] I mean, we were in the first era of people that saw action stars.

[690] They didn't look like humans anymore.

[691] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[692] Probably that you're like, Bronson was killing people and Clint Eastwood.

[693] These are the guys that like rained hell on folks, but they weren't jacked.

[694] No, no, no, no. And then the freakish workout thing of the 80s just yeah in anabolic steroids they really right that that marriage yeah it's a good combo when done in tandem it really yields results we have to add what percentage do you believe in the simulation yes great question oh quite a bit okay yeah yeah because how could you and ben both have been in that movie school time like how could it all well Ben didn't make it Ben didn't make it no he's in it oh he is yeah he's got a small part oh he's one of the six guys okay yeah exactly there's a weird parallel though because I'm now remembering that Ben was also the dickhead in um days and confused so you guys kind of both got in yeah got in playing dickheads yeah yeah and you're both so nice you're nicer than him my friend I'm so much nicer than you are right yeah yeah well Monica's in love with both you like head over heels had posters no is read every interview well my wife in fact she was a Ben fan before we met and her best friend was on my team your team and so we still we still joke about that I'm like, I've always got Eileen.

[695] It's a backup.

[696] If Lucy fucks me over.

[697] Oh, that's great.

[698] It's really fun how us on the outside, like, here's what happened to me. I saw Goodwell Hunting.

[699] I fucking loved it.

[700] The fact that you guys wrote it.

[701] But I don't know, in my head, I made it that you wrote it.

[702] I don't know why.

[703] I just did.

[704] Because I play the smart guy in the movie.

[705] There must be.

[706] That was actually a thing.

[707] In fact, it was actually kind of painful.

[708] SNL at the time did a skit.

[709] And I was doing rounders in New York.

[710] and I was in my rented apartment sitting there and I would watch Saturday Night Live because I loved it.

[711] Yeah.

[712] And I turned it on and there was a skit and all I remember about the skit was like I was writing the whole movie and Ben was like, they played him like a caveman.

[713] Oh, God.

[714] Like just, and he was just sitting there like doing hammer curls and I was like this is, but it was like, it's so deeply offensive.

[715] Right, right.

[716] Sure.

[717] Anyway, anyway.

[718] You're right, that has to be why I thought that.

[719] Just because of the character.

[720] Character was a genius.

[721] And because I was the lead of the movie.

[722] So people were like, oh, well, you must have done everything.

[723] You went to Harvard.

[724] Did he go to Harvard?

[725] No. So that was another element.

[726] I'm like, oh, this guy went to Harvard.

[727] He's a genius.

[728] Right.

[729] And he was a genius in the movie.

[730] And so he wrote the whole thing.

[731] Right.

[732] And the tall guy's getting some of the credit.

[733] Oh, God.

[734] But you were also probably feeling.

[735] Intiminated by Ben.

[736] Intimbing.

[737] Because at least by me, you could say, well, I'm taller than him.

[738] I'm sure I said that at some point when I was jealous of you.

[739] Fucking shrimp.

[740] That was a good actor.

[741] He's a good actor.

[742] Short guy.

[743] Yeah.

[744] Little guy.

[745] Little Maddie Damon?

[746] Yeah, he's a good actor of that kid.

[747] Yeah, he's pretty good.

[748] Little fella.

[749] Was that an issue for him?

[750] Was he like, I want to be the, I mean, maybe that's a question for him, but like maybe I want to be the lead.

[751] You know what I mean?

[752] Like, how did you guys decide this when you're writing?

[753] Literally only because I had started it in a playwriting class.

[754] And so I'd written what ended up being one scene survived from the 40 pages that I brought to Ben.

[755] Like about six pages survived.

[756] survived.

[757] But everything else, we just redid everything.

[758] But I'd come up with the characters, and the characters were like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[759] This is the smart guy, and this is his best friend.

[760] And what we really would have done if we could have was just write a movie about the young guys.

[761] The two guys, yeah.

[762] But we needed to get it made.

[763] Yeah.

[764] So we needed to have a part that attracted a movie star, and that was how we ended up with the therapist.

[765] Yeah.

[766] Are you at a point that you can evaluate the gift?

[767] And you probably have always been this way.

[768] you seem like a generous person, but the Gus Van Sant of it all.

[769] Oh, my God, yeah.

[770] I mean, yeah.

[771] Like, it's just a perfect storm, right?

[772] I mean, you guys are so fresh, and at such a point of view, and it's so earnest and honest to your guys' experience, and then you add in this artist.

[773] Yeah.

[774] I have a bad example.

[775] I was watching Pee Wee Herman adventure with my kids the other day.

[776] They hated it, by the way.

[777] Don't show your children.

[778] If you haven't already.

[779] I was watching, I was like, Tim Burton.

[780] Like, what are the odds that you're Peewee Herman And then the director that gets put on to your thing is young Tim Burton, who's about to be one of the greatest, most creative directors of all time.

[781] There's just some really wonderful sometimes things that happen.

[782] And I would just say Gus Van Sant's part of that, right?

[783] Just like a...

[784] But not only part of that, I mean, it's a director's medium.

[785] I mean, it is Gus's movie.

[786] I mean, we wrote it and we're in it.

[787] But, like, we had a whole kind of ceremonial thing where we literally handed him, you know, because a screenplay is just a blueprint.

[788] It's the drawings for this beautiful house you're building out here.

[789] It's a decade -long building.

[790] This is like Chiops and Pisa.

[791] Exactly.

[792] So it can only be a director's movie.

[793] The Buck has to stop with someone, and so it's Gus's movie.

[794] Yeah, there's a heart that just throughout every single scene that is hard to capture on film that has been done there perfectly.

[795] Yeah, we spent a lot of time with him and working on the script, taking all of his notes, and there was a lot of work in pre -production.

[796] He really knew the movie he was making when he...

[797] Well, I was going to ask you if this is lore, and I promise we're going to stop asking you questions about the first movie you overdid, but it's so impactful for both of us.

[798] I had heard through the grapevine that there was a version of the script where you actually would go to work at NSA and it became kind of an espionagey thing.

[799] That's true.

[800] Yeah, yeah, it was a lot more like kind of Midnight Run, which was another movie that we loved.

[801] Yes.

[802] It had like Beverly Hills cop, like there were guys tailing wheel around.

[803] Yeah.

[804] Yeah, it was, that was the script we sold.

[805] It was a high concept thing.

[806] And we went to Castle Rock, which was great that we did that because Rob Reiner eventually came into one of these meetings and said, what's with this whole NSA thing?

[807] Oh, my God.

[808] And we were like, you know, because that's the, you know, the movie you guys want to make.

[809] Midnight run, Beverly Hills guy.

[810] And he was like, this other stuff is really, I think, the movie.

[811] And so we resisted it at first because we went home.

[812] We took out all of that stuff and we had 60 pages.

[813] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[814] And we were like, what the fuck are we going to do?

[815] Like, yeah.

[816] And that's when we had the whole conversation.

[817] Well, what movie do you want on the mantle?

[818] Because we were like, well, this movie, no one's going to see this one.

[819] Yeah.

[820] But we were like, but this is what we really want to do.

[821] Yeah.

[822] And they're giving us permission to do it.

[823] Well, he probably, Rob identified that the part of the movie that he liked was the part that was your story.

[824] Right.

[825] The rest of it was totally derivative of other movies that we liked, right?

[826] Sure, of course.

[827] That's another weird blessing.

[828] Like, because I got to imagine at that age, if it's not Rob Reiner that says that, you guys might not listen.

[829] Right.

[830] Like what another gift.

[831] Simulation and simulation -y.

[832] Simulation.

[833] You're living in one.

[834] We're living in one.

[835] We're living in one.

[836] You want to hear a crazy idea?

[837] Yes.

[838] So I talked to Demis Asabas a few years ago.

[839] He's the guy who does DeepMind.

[840] The big AI thing?

[841] The big AI thing.

[842] Yeah, yeah.

[843] I had this conversation with him, and I asked him about simulation.

[844] Uh -huh.

[845] And he said, well, it's interesting.

[846] It's an interesting question.

[847] I can tell you that I have built the most complex simulation on planet Earth.

[848] and he goes something's going on I was like whoa oh my god and he started to explain that he found that primitive earth was kind of the best you know about 10 ,000 AI where it was kind of the right number and they kind of form tribes and you'd need opposable thumbs like suddenly you needed all of the same things that kind of we are and he said look if we build simulations to kind of solve our problems right to kind of model things yeah so if this is simulation, then we are the AI.

[849] Yeah.

[850] Right.

[851] Yes.

[852] And he goes, so just imagine if we ever become advanced enough to hack our way out of this.

[853] Here's because what if the creator we're confronted with is more simple than we are.

[854] Which, by the way, will be our future.

[855] We will eventually create things that we don't understand.

[856] It's already probably happened.

[857] It's good stuff.

[858] Good brain melting stuff.

[859] Yeah, we talk about on something we actually did a specifically just simulation episode and it's yeah hard to lock into what when you believe in like either you're real and everyone else around you is sim the current theory we left with is like what if this is one of the 10 million models that are being run to figure out how to deal with climate change.

[860] Like currently wherever this thing was invented they're dealing with climate change so they ran 10 billion models to see if anyone could solve it and we're just one of the models that's trying to solve and it happens for the computer in a second but for us it's this 80 -year ride i started really thinking about it when in 2016 when in the course of a month the cubs won the world series and donald trump was elected yes i was like come on yes this ain't happening this isn't real yeah you know my final piece of proof i've decided where i'll believe wholeheartedly its simulation is i keep watching 60 minutes and they keep interviewing people at mit that seem to have shut down aging they're doing it in mice right they're erasing part of the epigenome that turns off jeans and in doing that they bring them back to their like 20 year old self and they've done it they do it they reversed aging in mice they have it with mice yeah yes so my thing is like if i find out in a few years that i'm going to be living forever that's the time to go like all right guys what were the odds that in 150 000 years of human being here i was born in the year where you could turn your aging off it's funny i had that conversation with my dad before he died because i was like can you imagine the the cruel irony if we are the last two generations.

[861] Like, if you laid out, there's some statistic, like if you laid out playing cards to represent the history of the earth, right?

[862] You would stretch them for like 10 miles, right?

[863] And the decks of cards, one after, you know, playing cards would go for 10 miles, or a mile, whatever it is.

[864] Human beings, human life would represent one piece of the last card that you put down there.

[865] Yeah, there's the geological calendar they do too.

[866] Or it's like if you overlay, say five billion years of history into a 365 day calendar.

[867] That's right.

[868] Humans arrive at 1159 p .m. on December 31st.

[869] Yes, and you're like, oh, okay.

[870] Exactly.

[871] So working with that kind of time scale, what are the odds that we are the generation that understands that aging is going to be reversed but dies before it happens to us?

[872] Yes.

[873] Like, is that epically bad luck?

[874] Yeah, like you're on your deathbed and you're like, you're drifting off And on TV, there's a line of people getting vaccinated for aging.

[875] And you're like, fuck.

[876] Almost made it.

[877] Talk about watching the bus drive away.

[878] You didn't make it.

[879] Oh, that's cruel.

[880] Okay, I'm going to seamlessly apply that to your career by saying, despite these setbacks up until Goodwill Hunting, I don't know that I've observed a career, maybe a handful, that it seems you've chosen right.

[881] Like, I mean, impossible.

[882] Possibly so for the last 20 years, where soon as goodwill hunting happened, you certainly got offered the lead of many things.

[883] And for five times the price you had just made, that's so fucking tempting.

[884] And then yet you're taking more supporting roles.

[885] You're doing all these things that I want to know how you have that kind of foresight.

[886] So, well, in some ways, I got lucky.

[887] Like, before Goodwill Hunting came out, Ben and I each got offered movies.

[888] He got offered Armageddon.

[889] I got offered saving Private Ryan.

[890] We would have done either one.

[891] Right, right.

[892] I mean, I would have happily done Armageddon.

[893] he would have happily done Private Ryan.

[894] But there was something about because I had done The Rainmaker with Coppola.

[895] Yeah.

[896] In one calendar year, I had a Coppola movie, a Spielberg movie, and Goodwill Hunting come out in Gus's movies.

[897] So it was just like fucking lucky.

[898] Yeah, just incredibly lucky.

[899] And then.

[900] But you could have definitely mismanaged that.

[901] Many people have.

[902] And I did.

[903] I made movies that didn't work.

[904] But as long as one out of every three of them kind of worked.

[905] If you got two in the bank, yeah.

[906] Right.

[907] Then you can kind of keep, they let you keep going.

[908] And then I had a lull right before Bourne came out in like 2002 where the phone stopped ringing and it was like, oof.

[909] Can I ask really quick in those moments, what kind of story do you tell about your life?

[910] Are you like, yep, knew that was going to happen?

[911] No, no, actually, by that point, I was like, well, I wrote my way out of obscurity.

[912] I can do it again.

[913] Yeah, I can do it again.

[914] And I'm in a much better spot than I was five years ago.

[915] So I'm okay.

[916] Oh, that's good.

[917] So there was never any panic.

[918] Like, I better take this big shitty movie because I'll never work again if I don't.

[919] Like, I didn't have that feeling.

[920] kind of felt like it's okay it'll suck not to be offered stuff anymore but i can still try to figure something out yeah and hustle but then the born movie that was a huge like it was like an inoculation like where i knew i had another born movie in two years yeah and so i was really free to do whatever that is so nice yeah it's kind of like you had a safety net for 14 years i mean certainly up until 07 2002 to 2007 were the three movies okay we did another one five years ago Right.

[921] And then, I mean, I had the departed in there in that time.

[922] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[923] You know, where it's like you get called from Scorsese.

[924] It's like a dream.

[925] It's pretty bonkers.

[926] Who directed the firstborn?

[927] Doug Lyman.

[928] Yeah, Lyman.

[929] Yeah.

[930] He didn't direct all three.

[931] No, he directed the first one.

[932] And then Paul Greengrass directed the next ones.

[933] I was thinking to be in a franchise, you're in a weird way.

[934] You're kind of like on a TV show.

[935] Because when you're on a TV show, which I was on once for six years, you're in this weird dynamic where every week you have a new guest director coming in.

[936] Sometimes they've seen the show.

[937] sometimes they haven't and they're just lying and you're in this bizarre position where you as the actor probably know the show better than the director does and so there's like the trust is a little harder and i just wonder what it's like to have done the firstborn it's so wildly great in so many ways and successful and then someone else comes in do you feel the sense of like i know what this thing is no you didn't not at all not really no we struggled with the first one we were over budget we were over schedule that's kind of a dug move though yeah yeah he kind of works beautifully in chaos it seems he does i love him and i would work with him again in new york minute i love doug yeah and he's a great director yeah but he's just he does thrive in chaos like he's creatively like that's his jam like he's great like better than anybody i've ever seen yeah yeah i love that in chaos and he gets great stuff because of that yeah but when it came time to do the second one the studio was like they didn't want to go through that again with them and so they started asking about other directors and I saw Bloody Sunday and Paul for a director of that caliber, Doug or Paul or any of those guys, they have to, it's not an assignment where they come in and go like, hey, I'll direct this one.

[938] It's like, this is a year of my life.

[939] It's going to be their movie.

[940] Yeah, absolutely.

[941] Yeah, yeah.

[942] It's what do I want to say with it?

[943] How does it fit into my body of work?

[944] I remember Paul came to Prague and had dinner with me. I was shooting a movie there and he came and that was the first time like I'd sat down with him and I mean, he's a brilliant, brilliant guy and it comes out of journalism and yeah just an incredible guy but those movies were very much pauls okay as you're like building without your full awareness this huge body of work was the driving force like i want to try playing that i want to try playing this or was it i want to work with that director yeah it's the latter yeah the latter that's such a smart way to go my ego was like i want to be a tough guy in a movie i don't care who directs it no i could have done better roles i would have been probably perceived to be a better actor, but I wouldn't be a better actor.

[945] I'm a better actor because I went for the director.

[946] Yeah.

[947] Always.

[948] Yeah.

[949] It's also kind of eagle -less.

[950] Like, I applaud it.

[951] No, it ends up being very rewarding because then he's in Scorsese movies.

[952] It's in Sources movies.

[953] It's like with Kristen, being so generous, the money just keeps coming because she keeps giving it out.

[954] It's a weird.

[955] It's a weird reversal.

[956] For every dollar she makes, she gives two away and then two comes back.

[957] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[958] I don't understand it.

[959] It's wonderful.

[960] I did the episode of House of Lies.

[961] Because you're friends with Cheatel.

[962] Yeah, I'm friends with Don, and we had too much wine one night and started spitballing ideas.

[963] And, like, that show was a really, we couldn't believe we didn't get in more trouble for that.

[964] So we tried to be, like, create the most offensive version of me as we could.

[965] And Don's like, the consultants I'm hiring to, like, get me out of this jam because I'm such a fucking asshole.

[966] And we had so much fun.

[967] But I got to be with, four when they worked together it was so fun and the generosity amongst them like and watching them improvise i didn't understand i'd heard don talk about it but going down and being a part of that and watching that happen like the script was like out the window and it was all about them and they knew exactly what they were doing they were all so good and they're all leaving so much space for each other can we single out josh lawson yeah yeah i love josh what a god yeah infuriatingly funny yeah but i felt like they were like a great band yes no one played the same instrument no they never stepped on each other's toes they left room for each other and they all knew when one person was gonna solo and they were like but together it was like it's just super fun to watch it totally was it totally was and then chiedel gives it this thing that can't any no one can give it yeah they used to call it you know his fucking speeches on that show would be like flipping the pages like four pages and they would call it getting Cheatled.

[968] Like if you, oh, fuck, I got Cheatled this week.

[969] I got like a three and a half page fucking bullshit monologue.

[970] That makes no sense.

[971] That's great.

[972] But that's kind of how oceans felt.

[973] I know you guys weren't improvising, but it really felt so flowy and that you guys were all in your own exact space.

[974] I love that movie.

[975] We were really relaxed because we were used to headlining movies and having all this pressure.

[976] And suddenly it was like, oh, I just come up, I'm going to breeze through this scene.

[977] Yeah, what number were you on the call sheet in that movie?

[978] I was probably three or four.

[979] Yeah, and it had been a while probably.

[980] I mean, there was George and Brad, Julia.

[981] I mean, I was probably four, maybe five.

[982] I don't know.

[983] It's kind of nice, right?

[984] It was great.

[985] And no egos, like, that particular group of people, too, were like, we all realized really quickly that, like, when you got called to set, like, the goal was to get there five minutes early, because if you showed up on time, you were the last person, and it was a standing ovation every time, right?

[986] And you were Mr. Big Time.

[987] Oh, my God, it's all gone to your head.

[988] It's a great working environment.

[989] Sometimes big dogs can neutralize each other in a great way.

[990] But none of those guys are like big dog guys.

[991] They're just not.

[992] Like, I mean, I've done how many movies I've done with George now.

[993] He's directed me a bunch.

[994] And I mean, he's just so nice.

[995] And Brad couldn't be more normal.

[996] Like, I've never seen, like, you talk about the surreality of, like, fame.

[997] I've never seen anybody get it like Brad.

[998] Oh.

[999] Nothing fucking close.

[1000] And Jerry Weintraub, even said it to me i remember we were in london and he was like every generation there's one guy and he was like i was there with elvis i was there with you know sinatra he really had been with all these people and he was like brad's the guy and i've never seen somebody who less put out the vibe of wanting that right i know i know like he couldn't it actually seems impossible when you meet him that it could have happened to him right right in some weird way in some weird way because he's just such a dude a dude just happens to be perfect looking yeah yeah i don't know because i've been very lucky in that regard like i've been afforded kind of more privacy than most people get yeah and i look at people like him been to a certain degree but nobody to the extent that brad i mean i've been in situation lucy and i were in situation with brad in 2004 in monaco where we had to show up for the Grand Prix.

[1001] And if George and Brad and I showed up for the Grand Prix, they were going to put Oceans 12 on the side of the Jaguar car.

[1002] Oh my God.

[1003] And it was one of these Jerry Weintrapp things where apparently it costs like a billion dollars to put signage on these cars because so many people are watching.

[1004] And Jerry calls him up and goes, oh, Jaguar.

[1005] You're going to put oceans 12 on the side of your car.

[1006] And they're like, no, we're not.

[1007] It's 50 million dollars or whatever.

[1008] And he goes, no, the guys are going to show up.

[1009] because by the time I'm done with you every photographer in Europe is going to be in your garage and they're like we're not doing that and he goes then he goes then they're all going to be at Michael Schumachery Ferrari you know you can go fuck yourself and they're like all right and they go but we've already sold the signage where do we put it he goes you got that spot where the jaguar is why don't you this big empty space put it there and they go but that's the jaguar it's an empty space with a jaguar in and he goes by the time I'm done with you everyone's going to know it's a jaguar.

[1010] So anyway, they went for it and they gave us this real estate for free on the side of their car.

[1011] But we had to come in by boat and walk the track for like a quarter mile to get to this garage.

[1012] And I've never, still, to this day, I mean, every premiere, Oscar, anything I've ever been to, I've never seen anything is crazy.

[1013] I mean, it was like being in a tornado and it was all around Brad.

[1014] And, I mean, literally, I think, I've told the story, before because like Lucy and I got armbard like four times by security and we're like no no we're with we're with mr pitt but brad Brad was walking in the middle of this and it was the same summer that Troy came out oh it was like peak pit peak Brad and like when is it not he yeah and he's walking and I remember he had this little lica that he carried and he he was holding it up and like taking pictures over his head of all the crazy people yeah and i looked at him and i was like that dude's pulse is definitely below 50 right like this is not i was like it's a dangerous situation it's a dangerous situation lucy and i weren't married then we were just boyfriend and girlfriend but i like we talked later i was like how fucked up was that and i was like did you see brad and she was like yeah and i'm like this wasn't even top 10 for that guy yeah yeah yeah right right right this doesn't make his memory probably on the death bad he doesn't remember this no i got to tell you really two second funny story so brad Cooper was in a movie.

[1015] I want to say it was like failure to launch or something.

[1016] He was like sixth lead of the movie.

[1017] He brings his cousin from Philadelphia out to take him to the movie premiere.

[1018] He kind of wants a big time.

[1019] And he gets out of the car and he gets on the red carpet.

[1020] And he's like, he's walking down the red carpet.

[1021] All of a sudden, and everyone starts going apeshit.

[1022] And he's like, Brad, Brad, Brad, Brad, Brad, and Cooper starts to respond.

[1023] He's waving.

[1024] He's like pointing at people.

[1025] He keeps looking at his cousin, like, check this shit out.

[1026] The whole fucking crowd knows me. He is on top of the world, and then his cousin's like, fucking Brad Pitt's here.

[1027] He turns around and they're all yelling like from a block away at Brad Pitt.

[1028] My favorite red carpet story was the one Cheatel told me like 20 years ago.

[1029] I think he had done devil in a blue dress.

[1030] Every actor in town knew exactly who he was.

[1031] They're like, this guy's amazing.

[1032] Unreal, yeah.

[1033] But he got out.

[1034] I think he was at the, he went to the Oscars with Bridget.

[1035] And he gets out and he happens to get out.

[1036] Share is right in front of him.

[1037] And then Don and Bridget.

[1038] And then Jack Nicholson comes up behind him.

[1039] And so he goes, this thing erupts into like, Share, Jack, Jack, Jack, Sir, Jack, Sir, Jack.

[1040] I mean, he's like, it's this cacophony.

[1041] And he hears this one voice go, Don Cheadle.

[1042] And he lifts up, like, really hopefully at this person, the guy goes, get out of the way.

[1043] Oh, no. The way Don tells that stuff.

[1044] like the guy's so fucking mad at him like you are fucking out of the way Jesus oh my god that reminds me the first time i ever did letterman the first guest was tom cruise and i was the second guess in the fucking town car pulls up to the unsolvent theater and as i'm about to get out there is barricades and there's probably a thousand people that have come to see tom cruise walk into the thing so as my door opens to the SUV the crowd just gets into a fervor And then I step out, and there was just this collective, like, ah, it's not him.

[1045] Save your film!

[1046] You have a thousand people bummed out that you stepped out of the second before you go on Letterman for your first time.

[1047] It's just like a really unique feeling that's hard to relate to people.

[1048] Oh, my God.

[1049] What do we think we can attribute that in Brad to?

[1050] Like, how does he have that?

[1051] Why?

[1052] What's special?

[1053] I don't know.

[1054] I mean, he's, look, one thing I'll say, I think finally he's getting his due as an actor.

[1055] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1056] I mean, but for years, like, I revered that guy as an actor, and nobody else did.

[1057] It felt like, I don't think people understood how fucking good he was.

[1058] They overlooked his ability.

[1059] They overlooked his ability, because he is also incredible looking, and I remember watching a movie, one of his movies, maybe seven or something with Ben 20 years ago going, like, you can't take your eyes off him.

[1060] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1061] And so there's something about him being beautiful, but interesting, like, fucking Brando was like that, man. You just couldn't take your eyes off.

[1062] Yeah, yeah.

[1063] If he was on screen, you were looking at him.

[1064] Like, some people have a quality where you can watch them walk down a street.

[1065] Right.

[1066] We've watched De Niro walk for probably 20 cumulative minutes in Scorsese movies.

[1067] And I want 40 more.

[1068] Yeah, yeah.

[1069] Like, let me just see this guy walked down the street process what he's seen.

[1070] I'm in.

[1071] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1072] I had one question about oceans.

[1073] what is that experience where you're coming off of all these movies and you're the lead and you're the movie star and then you come in and Brad's going to take the role of like the playboy he's going to take the role of the most charismatic guy in the world and then Clooney's going to take this role too right and then you're going to come in and play more of a nerdy role right was that like a relief or we're like oh it's so weird there'll always be someone kind of ahead of me or there'll be somewhat you know what I'm saying yeah it's a mildly offensive question but no no no no I never kind of fancied myself a movie star you didn't like no i was i always felt like i was a character but you're so good looking too you're too good looking for a character but i'd been in the real world long enough to know that like look there's a difference i don't know i don't i have the image of you getting in the fight on the playground and will hunting first of all you look great you look like you've been in fights i don't know if you have but it yeah you did it basketball court you did it the basketball court what did i say feeling playground which is crazy okay well it's inner city basketball court It's kind of the playground.

[1074] Anyways, let's not get hung up on that.

[1075] Totally look real.

[1076] You look like a dude who can fucking throw right, and you're gorgeous.

[1077] But there's always a Brad Pitt.

[1078] There is, yeah.

[1079] And the quicker you accept that, the happier you'll be.

[1080] I'd seen actors and been in close quarters with actors who wanted to be the thing that they weren't.

[1081] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1082] And that's painful.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] All right.

[1085] One of our favorite movies of yours, which I don't know that was many people's favorites, the informant.

[1086] You are incredible in the informant.

[1087] That is one of my favorite comedies ever made.

[1088] Thanks, man. I'm really proud of it, and it's actually Stephen said that it's one of two movies out of sight being the other that he wouldn't change a frame of.

[1089] Oh, that's awesome.

[1090] That he's done.

[1091] It is so good.

[1092] The way you string out that runner of how much money he stole, I can't believe what a funny joke that is.

[1093] And your delivery, like, I need people to understand comedically what you're doing there because you're so, So sincere every time.

[1094] Every time you tell it, I think that, well, that's the last time I'm going to hear that number.

[1095] That was the actual number that he's told.

[1096] And it keeps getting more and more.

[1097] Guys, guys.

[1098] That's one of my all -time favorite jokes in a movie.

[1099] I mean, it just kept every fucking 12 minutes we found out another number.

[1100] It wouldn't stop.

[1101] The unreliable narrators are really fun.

[1102] Oh, my God.

[1103] But it was also, like, Scott Burns wrote an awesome, like, amazing screenwriter.

[1104] And then Stephen just really was dialed in.

[1105] Like, one of my favorite stories.

[1106] on that movie was there was a day that we shot in the courthouse where he actually stood up and made a speech to the community before his sentencing.

[1107] And we shot what he said.

[1108] And the first thing we did was kind of a wide of me standing up.

[1109] And it was all the actors were sitting in the gallery.

[1110] Like I had to apologize to the town, as Mark Whitaker did.

[1111] And I said it and I got choked up.

[1112] I didn't mean to, but it just happened.

[1113] And Stephen said, cut.

[1114] And he kind of walked over.

[1115] And I sat down at my defense table.

[1116] And he kind of came and sat on the table.

[1117] And he kind of came and sat on the table.

[1118] I kind of took his glass up and goes, no. And I was like, what?

[1119] I was like, fuck you, no. I was like, that shit was real, man. I was like, what are you talking about?

[1120] No, no, no. The scene, in a vacuum, the scene's fine.

[1121] He goes, you're just in the wrong movie.

[1122] And I go, okay, okay.

[1123] That's a hard note to give in here.

[1124] And I said, put me in the right movie.

[1125] And he sat there and he thought about it for about 10 seconds.

[1126] And then he nods and he goes, do it as if it's an awards acceptance speech.

[1127] Oh, baby.

[1128] What a great fucking...

[1129] And I was like, of course.

[1130] Of course.

[1131] This is his big moment.

[1132] Yes.

[1133] Like, fuck how did I not see that?

[1134] He's waiting for America to recognize that he's...

[1135] Yes, yes.

[1136] So it's that whole scene where I'm like, wow.

[1137] You know, like looking at everybody.

[1138] So proud.

[1139] Everybody's here to see this.

[1140] You know what I mean?

[1141] And it's like, but that's great directing, right?

[1142] That's really great directing, right?

[1143] That's really understanding the story you're telling.

[1144] Because as well as I knew that story, as well as I knew that character, I fucked it up.

[1145] I fucked it.

[1146] I mean, I showed up with the wrong angle of attack on the scene.

[1147] I did it as best I could.

[1148] It was good.

[1149] Another director would have been like, ooh, I should just keep that.

[1150] Yeah, yeah.

[1151] But by the way, within this lies the ever -present conflict between an actor and a director, which is the director is looking at the global thing, and the actor's looking at the moment.

[1152] So the moment may be totally truthful to the actor, but it might not be the right piece of the global story that's being told.

[1153] And that's a hard thing for actors to stomach.

[1154] It can be, especially when they have a kind of a virtuosic moment and they go, but that was so...

[1155] And they don't have Soderberg saying...

[1156] Right.

[1157] Like, I don't know if you heard this story.

[1158] I found this to be one of the most fascinating things I ever saw.

[1159] It was an interview during...

[1160] There will be blood press between Paul and Daniel Day Lewis.

[1161] And it's on Charlie Rose.

[1162] I know we're not allowed to say his name anymore, but alas, that's where the interview was.

[1163] And Charlie says, I heard a story that you guys threw out the first week of filming.

[1164] Is that true?

[1165] And you can see both of them don't want to talk about this because they're both...

[1166] They're who they are.

[1167] And they don't want to bastardize the process by sharing it.

[1168] But they do tell the story that they shot the movie for an entire week.

[1169] Paul said to Daniel Day -Lewis, I'd like you to come watch Daly's.

[1170] And Daniel -D -Lewis said, I don't watch Dailies.

[1171] And Paul said, I know you don't, but I'm asking you, too.

[1172] He shows him the full first week of Daly's.

[1173] And then he turns to him and he says, I don't think your character works.

[1174] Wow.

[1175] And I think, where does someone get the confidence to tell Daniel D .Lewis that his interpretation's wrong?

[1176] Because for us, if anyone would know, it would be Daniel D. D. Lewis.

[1177] Except it would be also Poulton Hall.

[1178] It's Thomas Anderson.

[1179] Look, it goes back.

[1180] It's a director's medium.

[1181] But can you imagine telling Daniel Day Lewis like, hey, and you sit through a whole week?

[1182] Yes, I can.

[1183] I can.

[1184] Because that's what you have to do.

[1185] Ben was editing one of his movies, and he showed it to Terrence Malick.

[1186] And Terry said, I'm going to talk to you as if it's surgeon to surgeon, and there's a body on the table right now.

[1187] Nice.

[1188] And that's the way you have to think of it.

[1189] This is not personal.

[1190] It's about what we're doing.

[1191] And when the hood is up on the car and we're fixing it, then it's all fair game.

[1192] Nothing's personal.

[1193] Yeah.

[1194] If you invite me to your premiere, I'm going to hug you and tell you it was the fucking best thing I've ever seen.

[1195] You did it again.

[1196] You know?

[1197] God damn.

[1198] But if you invite me to see a rough cut, you're like, hey, man, I'm snowblind right now.

[1199] I need help.

[1200] I need another set of eyes on this.

[1201] Then that's what you need.

[1202] And that's the respect for what we do.

[1203] I have this conversation with people who ask me to read their script.

[1204] And I say, before I read it, I need to know, do you want?

[1205] me to pat you on the back at the end for accomplishing this?

[1206] Because it is a huge accomplishment.

[1207] Or do you want me to help you make it better?

[1208] I just need to know before I tell you.

[1209] Yeah.

[1210] And that kind of backdoors them into having to say, no, I want notes.

[1211] They don't.

[1212] They just want to hear a great job.

[1213] We never want notes.

[1214] No, no. We're allergic to notes.

[1215] No, no. To be fair, I get the, you did it again.

[1216] But with my group of friends, it's never that easy.

[1217] Was there ever a time when being connected to Ben felt annoying.

[1218] I'm sure at this point you don't feel that, probably, because you guys have had such a long history.

[1219] I agree.

[1220] He keeps bringing him up, and I think for me, this could have been a stumbling block over the years.

[1221] Like, I want my own thing.

[1222] I mean, it's been 40 years.

[1223] I mean, there was a time when I felt such righteous anger around the way he was treated in the press.

[1224] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1225] The way he and Jennifer Lopez were treated in the press 20 years ago or 18 years ago, whenever that was.

[1226] I couldn't believe how different, the perception was versus who he actually was.

[1227] And just the kind of casual way which people kind of dissed him and her.

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] It was just really ugly and really unfair.

[1230] Like, he's one of the smartest people I've ever met in my life.

[1231] I think it would be a question for him if he came and talked to you guys.

[1232] Like, did he feel the need to go, like, be a director on it?

[1233] Like win best picture.

[1234] Do all this stuff that was totally disconnected from me. Right.

[1235] To just go, like, by the way, this is who I am.

[1236] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1237] You know what I mean?

[1238] Like, just by the nature of the job, like we only can work together so often, but so I never felt like I was over -connected to him.

[1239] But I certainly felt like going back to your point about Goodwill Hunting that, too much of the success of that was attributed to me. I mean, if ever there was a 50 -50 job, like writing with him, people would always ask, who wrote what?

[1240] Like, you know, who typed?

[1241] Yeah, it's like, that's the dumbest question.

[1242] Yeah, yeah.

[1243] Like, who typed?

[1244] Yeah, yeah.

[1245] Well, everyone in America can type, so I doubt that's the...

[1246] That's not the thing that...

[1247] The key ingredient to this.

[1248] But the way every line of dialogue, like, having just gone through it again with them, it's like one of us says something, the other iterates on that.

[1249] Wait, you guys just wrote another movie together?

[1250] This movie, The Last Duel, that's going to come out in October.

[1251] We don't even know about that.

[1252] We're here to talk about...

[1253] Stillwater.

[1254] But, wow, you guys wrote it in...

[1255] We wrote with Nicole Hollif Center.

[1256] It's a movie about the last sanctioned duel in medieval France.

[1257] It was a history book we read.

[1258] It's about these two knights, one of whom claimed the other raped his wife.

[1259] And so they fight a duel to the death over this.

[1260] And so we saw it as this story of perspective.

[1261] So Ben and I wrote the male perspectives, and Nicole wrote the female perspective.

[1262] Oh, yeah.

[1263] How cool.

[1264] Yeah, it's really, I think it's going to be really good.

[1265] Who directed it?

[1266] Ridley Scott.

[1267] Oh, my God.

[1268] Oh, I'm so excited.

[1269] Yeah, so excited.

[1270] Wow.

[1271] It's good.

[1272] The trailer just came out yesterday.

[1273] Oh, my God.

[1274] I got to see it.

[1275] Okay, well, I watched Stillwater last night.

[1276] I got to say, I'm so glad I got to see that right before I talked to you because you're completely, I have not seen this version of you as Bill.

[1277] Where I'm from, it's so spot on.

[1278] And it's the tiniest things that are spot on.

[1279] The fact that you wear your fucking sunglasses on top of your hat is just such a wonderful, specific thing.

[1280] I don't know if you're behind that or someone suggested that, but that is such a key ingredient.

[1281] Yeah.

[1282] I hang with mostly dudes who put their sunglasses on their hat.

[1283] I'm into off -roading and I'm at all these things.

[1284] And it's so specific.

[1285] And then I don't know, it must have been in the script, but the frequency with which you say dumbass in the delivery of dumbass, it's just a bullseye.

[1286] It's the arrow going through the arrow that's already in the bullseye.

[1287] It's so fucking every dude that I grew up around.

[1288] Oh, cool.

[1289] You're so fucking good in it.

[1290] It's crazy.

[1291] Thanks, man. It's one of my favorite things I've done.

[1292] Can I suggest or ponder that it's probably also one of the harder things you've done?

[1293] Because I find it to be hardest when you do the least.

[1294] and to have the confidence that the doing the nothing is something huge.

[1295] Yeah, I always believed in that, and I think I believe in it more now.

[1296] There's more, certainly with this role, there's a lot underneath than nothing.

[1297] Yes.

[1298] You know what I mean?

[1299] And that was always the kind of acting that I responded to when you could look at somebody who looked like they were doing nothing and it was pretty fucking far from nothing.

[1300] Paul Newman playing the fucking pinball machine at the beginning of verdict.

[1301] Yeah, it's one of my favorite openings of them.

[1302] Like, how could you play pinball?

[1303] Tell me as much as you.

[1304] Like that whole thing, that tells you everything.

[1305] you need to know about that guy like but it's a special actor that can play pinball and let you know exactly who he is and then go drink up with an egg in it right yeah yeah i know so fucking tasty the accent had you done a southern accent before yeah i mean i've done them for certain different movies i lived down in texas a lot in my 20s just because i ended up working down there in austin i worked in austin i worked in el paso i worked in del rio i worked in alpine there's a very specific texas accent well it changes throughout the state i mean west texas can get pretty severe like down in oklahoma where i went these guys i mean everything came from like that roughneck community like that's a thing that i didn't realize the specificity of that yeah it's a huge industry that no one really is aware of yeah you know what a roughneck is monica it's someone that drills on oil right yeah like um putting the pipe right right oh he was he was uh he's a roughneck guy yeah but these guys like it's a really really really hard job like physically and super dangerous very dangerous and these guys are really proud because if you can do it you can do it and if you can't like I got up on the rig and I was like no fucking way and so this guy is a roughneck and so that meant going down there and talking to those guys and Tom had been down there quite a bit the director and writer and then I went down for a few days with him and rode around with those guys went to the oil rigs I mean they were great they gave us a lot of access like hung out with their families barbecue in the backyard long drives in the car all the detail, like the physicality of it.

[1306] So when I was like, all right, my body needs to look this way.

[1307] Well, your deltoids look awesome.

[1308] You have a couple sleeveless scenes, and I was like, fucking deltoids still on point.

[1309] Yeah, well, those guys are strong, but they're like beefy.

[1310] They're like...

[1311] They're strong.

[1312] They're not ill. They're strong.

[1313] They're real strong.

[1314] Yeah, yeah.

[1315] Cowboys strong.

[1316] Country strong.

[1317] That's right.

[1318] What's a synopsis?

[1319] Okay, so his daughter has been incarcerated in France for a murder.

[1320] It kind of reminded me of the Amanda Knox story.

[1321] That was their inspiration for the idea.

[1322] It's kind of like what Tom was interested in is what happened after all the cameras went away?

[1323] Like what happens to that family?

[1324] And what if the father was a roughneck from Oklahoma and his daughter's in jail in Marseille.

[1325] And what happens with a lot of these roughnecks is you go to the oil fields right out of high school.

[1326] If you don't go to college, you go to the oil fields.

[1327] And when the fields are up, these guys end up with a lot of cash in their pockets.

[1328] And they're 18, 19 years old.

[1329] And a lot of them go down this path of addiction.

[1330] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1331] You almost kill yourself working, then you almost kill yourself partying.

[1332] Exactly, and then you go back to work.

[1333] There's a weird redemptive quality.

[1334] So, like, people who live to live in, like, penance, it's a weird way to, like, live like an animal.

[1335] Because I did this.

[1336] I was a roofer and an alcoholic, and I felt like my penance was getting up at five and doing that thing.

[1337] Uh -huh.

[1338] So that I can continue to fucking be a werewolf at night.

[1339] Right, right, right.

[1340] That's interesting.

[1341] So the idea is that this guy was an absentee father, like, had this baby.

[1342] It just wasn't around.

[1343] So he's, at the beginning of the movie, his daughter's already been in prison for four years, and he's carrying a lot of grief and pain and shame and regret around the ways in which he failed his kid.

[1344] And so that guy goes to visit his daughter, and she says, I have this new piece of information about the real killer.

[1345] So this guy who has no skills, but really wants to help.

[1346] He doesn't speak the language.

[1347] He doesn't understand the culture.

[1348] Like he doesn't really know what's going on around him for most of the time.

[1349] Can I just add this?

[1350] So what's really fun about this movie is it's nearly the opposite of the Martian in that your character in the Martian was very flexible, a great improviser, took on new information, adapted, adapted, adapted.

[1351] This guy goes to France.

[1352] He doesn't learn one thing of French.

[1353] He walks into places just speaking English before he asks if anyone understands what he said.

[1354] He eats at Subway.

[1355] He's the opposite, literally the opposite of the Martian character.

[1356] He is not evolving at all.

[1357] He's just plotting.

[1358] And yet by the end of the movie.

[1359] he's gone on this like incredible journey and he's a very different person than he was at the beginning of the movie but in a very real way the whole time i'm trying to put your character bill into a category in my head and it's almost driving me crazy because i'm looking at him and he looks like my stereotype of a far right winger yeah and even in the movie your french female counterpart, they get drunk and even ask you at one point, did you vote for Trump?

[1360] And then in my mind as a viewer, I'm like, oh, I'm going to get the answer that I've been looking for.

[1361] And then you go, oh, I couldn't vote because I'm a felon.

[1362] And then that topic's over.

[1363] And then you leave that scene and I'm like, they still didn't give it to me. And I like that.

[1364] My reading of that was like he says no and they're kind of relieved and he's like, well, I couldn't vote.

[1365] Like in other words, like what's implicit in that is of course I would have voted for him.

[1366] I talk to those guys, you know, you're talking about politics.

[1367] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1368] They're like, hey, they're in Oklahoma, which is the reddest state in the union.

[1369] And they work in the oil fields.

[1370] Yeah, exactly.

[1371] Like, they're voting red down the ticket no matter what.

[1372] And completely unapologetically.

[1373] And, like, the guys that I talk to view it as a kind of a binary proposition.

[1374] It's like, well, my kids are going to eat.

[1375] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1376] And I just, that's my job.

[1377] And I need somebody to protect my job.

[1378] And that's how they look at it.

[1379] When you talk to those people for character work, do you feel the need to, like, say, but what about kids in cages?

[1380] I mean, do you just feel like, oh, shit, I can't really input my own feelings on this?

[1381] Well, what I'm there to do is to try to understand why the character does what he does, right?

[1382] But I think they were wary.

[1383] They were like, what are you guys doing here?

[1384] Like, you make a movie about roughnex?

[1385] Come on, what are you doing?

[1386] What's the real liberal subtext of this, I'd imagine?

[1387] How are you going to fucking throw us under the bus?

[1388] Exactly, yeah.

[1389] And I think once they realized that, I think Tom let them see the script.

[1390] And they were like, oh, like, this script has got a lot of.

[1391] compassion and a lot of empathy for this guy.

[1392] Yeah.

[1393] And so do we, for that matter.

[1394] And so we're just trying to get it right.

[1395] But look, there were a lot of those jokes.

[1396] Like, this dude came up when I were, we were sitting there, and this guy drove up, and his name was Big John.

[1397] His work was related to the roughnecks because he would bring out equipment to the rig when it went down.

[1398] So he was an important part of making this whole system work.

[1399] And Kenny Baker, the guy who took us around, who was, we named Bill Baker as a nod to Kenny because Kenny was so great and Kenny said oh you got to meet this guy and he said big John come here he goes this here's Matt Dame and he's making a move about the whole business and uh this guy walks over and big John like all these guys are big sure sure sure sure big John's bigger and he walks over and he shakes my hand and he goes I hope I like it more than the last movie you did about the whole business because I had no after Syriana John Krasinski and I wrote Promise Land about fracking and natural gas.

[1400] We started laughing, but it was...

[1401] Oh, that's hilarious.

[1402] And I was like, yeah, I think you're going to like this one more, man. But they were where...

[1403] It was like, what are your intentions here?

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] Well, by the way, very earned to be skeptical.

[1406] Totally.

[1407] And this is what I actually really, really liked about the movie is that I'm always on my soapbox about...

[1408] So we, as a family, go to the sand dunes quite often.

[1409] Everyone there is on the right.

[1410] Every flag on the dune buggy is a Trump flag.

[1411] And what I love about it is you end up gathering around like the swing set where everyone dunes to.

[1412] And everyone's there with their kids.

[1413] Everyone went through like a ton of discomfort and inconvenience to get there, to give their kids this experience.

[1414] And my wife and I'll be sitting there and I just love that.

[1415] I love something that breaks through this us and them thing.

[1416] And what I liked about the movie so much is like, I'm trying to figure out who you are in that sense, in this stupid binary sense.

[1417] sense.

[1418] But far more important, I have a daughter.

[1419] And I'm like, fuck, I hope I would be the man this man's proving to be in this situation.

[1420] Yeah.

[1421] And that is so much more valuable and important than the other reasons I might look at your character.

[1422] Yeah, totally.

[1423] Yeah, that's how I felt like going into this guy, Kenny's home and like seeing his beautiful family and seeing like what a great guy he is.

[1424] Like, yeah, the real deal.

[1425] And the exact same value system that I have about some of the most important things yeah i always leave those trips feeling like we're a lot closer than we're made out to be yeah i totally agree tom was saying i always leave those pissed off at politicians like for stoking those divisions yeah because it works for them the movie also reminded me of one of my favorite movies um in the valley ella did you see that movie i didn't Tommy lee jones he was on a very similar ride that your character was on and just his subtlety and his silence and all those things that you brought to this were very similar Yeah, he's one of my favorites.

[1426] He cast me in 1994 in the first thing he ever directed was a TV movie called The Good Old Boys.

[1427] And he cast me, I was 22, I think, 23, 23.

[1428] That was my first time working with him, and it was amazing.

[1429] And then he was in the last born movie that we did, five or six years.

[1430] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1431] Yeah, my favorite story about Tommy Lee, can I tell you this?

[1432] Oh, please.

[1433] Ben did a movie with him.

[1434] It was a good movie.

[1435] John Wells directed it.

[1436] As Ben said, it was kind of a two -hander, except Tommy Lee had this one.

[1437] one speech that really kind of made a Tommy Lee's movie.

[1438] But he's one of our favorite actors.

[1439] Ben was excited to work.

[1440] Company men was the name of the movie.

[1441] Oh, right.

[1442] And Ben's like, so we're shooting this scene.

[1443] It's like a steady camp shot.

[1444] It's a walk and talk.

[1445] And they're over me onto Tommy Lee.

[1446] And it's like a two -page monologue.

[1447] And so he goes, the first one, Tommy Lee kind of stumbles through, kind of, we're finding the blocking.

[1448] We're finding out.

[1449] Second one, he goes, he stumbles on a few lines, but it's starting to take shape.

[1450] He goes, the third take.

[1451] he goes he was a third of the way through this thing and suddenly I was a director and completely out of the scene just rooting for him and now I'm thinking oh wait we don't even need a reverse we can play this whole thing on him this fucking thing plays in one this is unbelievable and now he's halfway through and he's like fucking go TL you got this and he's like and so finally he makes it all the way to the end and Ben goes I'm like my jaw is on the floor and John Wells says cut and I take a second to catch my breath because I'm about to say to him Tommy Lee that's one of the most incredible things I've ever seen in my life he goes before I can say that Tommy Lee strides away from me walks right up to the director puts his hand out shakes the director's hand and goes I think you're going to like your movie I think you're going to like your movie wow I think he just went home later like totally Total mic drop.

[1452] Oh, that's great.

[1453] Okay.

[1454] You've done S &L a bunch, right?

[1455] Just a couple times.

[1456] Yeah, I've hosted it twice.

[1457] Your monologue about your dad was very sweet.

[1458] Oh, thanks.

[1459] Yeah, it just happened to be like the anniversary of his death, like one day after, I guess.

[1460] Yeah.

[1461] What did he die of?

[1462] Cancer, multiple maloma, which is a blood cancer.

[1463] But it's not leukemia.

[1464] It's kind of a cousin to leukemia.

[1465] You get too many white blood cells in it gets over?

[1466] Yeah, it goes through your bone marrow, and it just, it's not.

[1467] Yeah.

[1468] They've got some things that do a good job, and there's a new car T -cell therapies that are kind of coming online that could be really great.

[1469] How long was that process?

[1470] Eight and a half years.

[1471] Oh, it was.

[1472] Yeah, so for the first probably seven years, I want to say, there were certain things, Velcade, Revellment.

[1473] There were things that worked really well for him, where so he'd get it like an infusion every two weeks, and he'd have kind of one sleepless night, and then he was great.

[1474] Wow.

[1475] And so that was really great.

[1476] He had wonderful care, like a mass general in Boston.

[1477] So my dad called me August 5th.

[1478] I went and looked at this thing on my neck.

[1479] I have lung cancer.

[1480] And then December 31st he died, so four months.

[1481] And in that four month window, I was back in Michigan every other week and taking him to came on, all those things.

[1482] The thing I found hard to manage that I immediately think of when thinking of an eight and a half year process is trying to adjust your expectations all the time.

[1483] like I was like oh he's going downhill like okay this is the final turn and then this weird rebound for two weeks where it's like oh no he's he you know here he's like he ate a steak last night you're like oh we're back so I got to shift my mind now to like what we're going to beat this like that whole seesaw of yeah what am I preparing for I found to be really challenging me too yeah yeah the last year of his life was tough so we moved back to Boston and he was in the hospital every day getting treatments and some nights he'd have to stay and some nights he'd come home and it was a really long drawn out process but we had hope for kind of nine months of that year and then we got him qualified him for this thing and it didn't work that was the weird one was the kind of existentially cruel one was you're gonna die he was 109 pounds which was like he was 109 pounds the last six months of his life and we realized it was because that was the weight of his skin his bones and his organs.

[1484] There was nothing else to lose.

[1485] Wow.

[1486] And he was so weak that the only part of him that worked was his brain was fucking perfect.

[1487] Really?

[1488] It was like he was excruciatingly aware of everything that was happening.

[1489] And that there was no hope.

[1490] And he was a very optimistic guy.

[1491] And I remember him saying at one point, like, it's so strange to have nothing to hope for.

[1492] Yeah.

[1493] The last three months are just waiting, waiting for this inevitable thing.

[1494] And there's nothing else to do in your life.

[1495] You don't have the strength to leave the bed, so you can't go anywhere.

[1496] Even in a wheelchair, I mean, it was so compromised.

[1497] You couldn't even take him somewhere.

[1498] Yeah.

[1499] Say, do you want to see this?

[1500] It was like you couldn't write that.

[1501] It was weird.

[1502] It was so cruel.

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] Thank God my dad had a fentanyl patch, which was a 72 -hour time release thing.

[1505] Those are nice.

[1506] Well, I mean, in opioid, when you actually are in pain, actually goes right to the pain.

[1507] It doesn't, you know.

[1508] Yeah, yeah.

[1509] That's what it's for.

[1510] That's actually what it's for.

[1511] He was totally lucid.

[1512] Like, you would forget that he...

[1513] But if I try to put that fucking thing on...

[1514] Yeah, he'd be like...

[1515] Yeah, he'd be not now.

[1516] Yeah, completely.

[1517] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1518] But it just literally short -circuited his pain.

[1519] He forgot how much pain he was supposed to be in.

[1520] Because the cancer had eaten through his bones, right?

[1521] So if he moved, he was going to snap.

[1522] Yeah.

[1523] I don't know.

[1524] Did you read Grant by chance?

[1525] No. Ulysses S. Grant biography.

[1526] You know, he died of throat cancer in the 1800s.

[1527] Right.

[1528] And when you come to terms with what it used to be like to die of cancer versus like what my dad went through your dad my stepdad it used to be horrific right yes i mean like him coughing up chunks of his body and stuff you know like can't drink water no opiates no that's right that's right though like you know the my dad had pneumonia he must have had pneumonia 12 times in the last few years of his life and they used to refer to that as the great mercy right because that would take you out so the last year that he had which was not a year that i would wish on anybody yeah he wouldn't needed all those opioids.

[1529] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[1530] I have a weird smidgen of gratitude that he didn't have a heart attack because he had heart disease, my dad.

[1531] That could have happened.

[1532] As evil as cancer is, there is something I think amazing about the knowledge that like, hey, anything you got to clean up, now's the time.

[1533] I ended up really appreciating that window where I got to make peace with a lot of stuff.

[1534] And I think a lot of sons don't get to do if their dad just drops dead of a heart its half.

[1535] Funnily enough, my dad was somebody with whom I always was fully at peace.

[1536] Yeah, that's wonderful.

[1537] And so that year was precious in the sense that we had a lot of time together.

[1538] Yeah.

[1539] But I didn't need it for that reason.

[1540] Right.

[1541] I'm lucky to be able to say that when I hope that I'm that kind of dad to my kids.

[1542] Like, there were so many lessons in how he was with us.

[1543] But a lot of the time, it was just sitting around hanging out and shooting the shit with them.

[1544] Yeah, yeah.

[1545] What TV did you guys watch together?

[1546] Well, it was 2017.

[1547] So it was always politics.

[1548] He goes, Jesus, Matthew, I just want to make it.

[1549] I just wish I could make it to see this son of a bitch get his come up and see.

[1550] This guy represents everything that's wrong with this country.

[1551] He goes, he's the flip side to the coin.

[1552] He's selfish.

[1553] He's out for himself.

[1554] He's greedy.

[1555] He's an egomaniac.

[1556] He's a narcissist.

[1557] You know, he just go on.

[1558] My dad, we had a moment where we were watching his shows, because that's what we did when I would visit him.

[1559] And he was super into the show that was either on like showtime or or whatever.

[1560] And it was a Game of Thrones esk show, but it wasn't on HBO, right?

[1561] And he's like, oh, you're not watching whatever the hell the name of the show was.

[1562] So we're watching it together.

[1563] He puts it on.

[1564] And there's a scene where this princess wants to choose a lover, and they line up like 20 men.

[1565] And then by God, Matt, there is a tracking shot that is just on the penises.

[1566] I'm not kidding you.

[1567] So we're starting on one penis, and it's a slow dolly.

[1568] It's just as I'm seeing like, oh, there's testicles, Let me see everything.

[1569] Then on to the next equipment.

[1570] And about five people in, my day, I goes, wait till you see this guy's dick.

[1571] And I'm like, okay, so you've already seen this episode.

[1572] This is like a 90 -second trekking shot of guys' dicks.

[1573] And you're starting to get exciting because a huge one's coming our way.

[1574] And I was like, what are you watching?

[1575] That's amazing.

[1576] Oh, it was incredible.

[1577] And sure enough, they got to that one guy and he had a big old hog and the princess was happy.

[1578] My dad was delighted.

[1579] Fantastic.

[1580] He knows his son.

[1581] I liked it.

[1582] I loved it.

[1583] I loved it.

[1584] I loved it.

[1585] The apple did not fall from...

[1586] What was the name of the show?

[1587] Oh my God, I'm going to have to look it up for the fact checks for anyone who wants to see a long tracking shot of like 12 penises.

[1588] All of them great, but one definitely outshining the rest.

[1589] Well, Matt, you're fucking awesome.

[1590] The only last thing I want to say, well, everyone should be watching your new movie Stillwater, which is incredible.

[1591] And that comes out...

[1592] I think July 30th.

[1593] Yeah.

[1594] And then now, not to trump that, but now we're so excited to find out that you wrote a movie with Ben and then that one's called the last dual the last duel which comes out in october yeah mid -october we're not going to get boring with like the state of movies and all that kind of stuff we're going to skip that the only thing that i have to cover still is because you're not an arm cherry there's like two million listeners that are so wrapped up in monica and i's lives and we're so grateful for it i can't put too fine a point on how much of monica's life has revolved around you and ben i mean i know you have mega fans i just i know you have I have mega fans, but I don't think you can understand the place you occupied in Monica's life.

[1595] That's awesome.

[1596] But look, if it's a positive change, that's the best thing I can hear.

[1597] Of course.

[1598] Yeah.

[1599] It brought me out here.

[1600] It changed my life, really.

[1601] That's awesome.

[1602] One of the cuter stories I've heard about you guys is that she would go camping when she was like 12 with her friend.

[1603] And she'd be really convinced.

[1604] Unfortunately, probably like 15.

[1605] 15.

[1606] Yeah.

[1607] And she'd really convince herself.

[1608] They might be camping here.

[1609] I would think that when I was anywhere, it was like such a fantasy that like I might be in the movie theater, maybe.

[1610] And then I'd like look back and maybe you guys were in the movie theater somehow.

[1611] That's why this is extremely full circle for me to be sitting across from you, having spent so much time in my life putting energy into coming across you.

[1612] So thank you for being here.

[1613] They're very, very, very welcome.

[1614] But I can't, I'm just trying to imagine the scenario in which, like, you guys are camping.

[1615] I come out stretching, oh, in the morning, out of our two -person tent.

[1616] Who's cooking coffee on fire?

[1617] In hell in Georgia.

[1618] In hell in Georgia.

[1619] Well, you know, anything's possible.

[1620] Hey, do you guys have any more bacon?

[1621] Hey, young gal.

[1622] Hey, hey.

[1623] Hey, you're cute.

[1624] So I guess all I'm leading towards is I don't feel nervous about asking this, but if you were not married and you were 33, you'd walk.

[1625] right out the door with her wouldn't you i mean and never look back absolutely yeah no i know i know it's sincere there's no way he wouldn't walk right out this door and then get camping oh that's right it would it would it be it helps to be married to somebody who likes you yeah yes as well as loves you that's although for me that wouldn't work that wouldn't work i'm an endless approval junkie so if you give it all to me i'm bored oh really so my wife is a genius at like laughing at my jokes every like 20th joke it's a science and I applaud her for it because it's not a given she's just on another level is yours a given like do you think your wife's going to approve of what you think and do fuck no right you it's required right yeah I don't know if it's required I mean is this the way my life is yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't mind approval either oh I love it I love it I'm thinking to you at 15 I'm like because I have a 15 year old daughter and and now we're not allowed to say Olivia Wilde's name in our house because she's with Harry Stiles Oh, and that's...

[1626] Mortal enemy now.

[1627] Yeah, and I'm not even like, she's a great director.

[1628] I don't want to hear about it.

[1629] Don't you say her name in my house.

[1630] She is a great director.

[1631] That movie was fantastic.

[1632] I loved it.

[1633] And that was her first movie for her, right?

[1634] I know, that's a real...

[1635] That's a hell of a first movie.

[1636] She's great, but I literally can't say that I'd love to be in her next movie because my daughter...

[1637] Don't say that.

[1638] Well, maybe you could go in as an office.

[1639] operative to break them up right that he could come on set right right she'll come visit on yeah you're gonna have to talk to mom because it might involve you having to woo her away I don't think I have to give you a pass just to solve this I don't think I have those skills oh you underestimate yourself who was your girl who is my girl who is your Matt Damon oh well let me think back in the day you're like 12 to 15 who are you like oh my god if I could kind of remember I could just get 10 minutes with her I could I could seal it she would know she would see how special i am well the 70s was linda carter and charlie's angels and but god when i was a teenager who was it when i was a teenager you're five years oh like lisa bonnet that's dexes really yes that's crazy lisa bonnet on the cosby show was just how about angel heart oh fuck it stop it like i couldn't i couldn't go from that to angel heart i was just like it was too much it was too much i was just like oh my god i had this mix of like i like i love her so much.

[1640] I'm now intimidated.

[1641] I could never please her.

[1642] Look at this creature.

[1643] I would never.

[1644] I wouldn't stand a chance.

[1645] I just was overwhelmed with like fear and lust and love all at the same time.

[1646] Like if I had my shot, I would blow it.

[1647] If I had my shot, I would totally ruin it.

[1648] Well, I'm delighted to find out this Lisa Bonnet thing.

[1649] And of course, we both love Monica too.

[1650] So there's two.

[1651] Look at that.

[1652] Yeah.

[1653] There's so much fun.

[1654] I'm really am flattered you drove all the way out here.

[1655] I know it's a pain in the ass.

[1656] So thanks for coming in person.

[1657] Today they actually drove me. they trusted me to get here for some reason they shun it so they got me a car i was like you know i have a car yeah you know i live here right yeah right i mean i can totally make it to those feelers no sometimes it can't be done right no apparently they think it can't be done so prince harry drove from santa barbara there you go and i was like this we don't deserve this he was like in afghanistan you know what i mean flying a fucking black hawk you're right he's like i can come down nine miles i'm an actor i i yeah well matt such a pleasure thanks so much for doing the show and i want everybody to see stillwater in theaters July 30th.

[1658] I saw it.

[1659] It's fucking awesome.

[1660] He's incredible.

[1661] As always, it's annoying.

[1662] Thank you so much, Matt.

[1663] Thanks, guys.

[1664] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1665] This is the fact check of my life.

[1666] Now, expectations versus experience.

[1667] Let's rate that.

[1668] I did a weird thing where obviously my expectations were at 100, but then I brought them down.

[1669] because I knew that's no one can meet that, that that's silly, that I can't go in feeling that way about him.

[1670] He's not will hunting, you remind yourself.

[1671] Well, it's just not fair to him.

[1672] And we've had that on here so often where we have people on and we have very high expectations.

[1673] And they're amazing, wonderful people, but they can't meet the standard that we put them at.

[1674] So I lowered them extremely.

[1675] And I was like, this is probably like not going to be that.

[1676] interesting and then he was perfect yeah then he was absolutely everything sire relief i wanted him to be well now people will be able to see the pictures of you hugging him it's like seeing a picture of a unicorn being ridden by a leprechaun like there's looks on your faces in those photos that i've just never seen and i've known you for seven years like there's one in particular i want people to in on it's it's you've got your mouth closed it's just post my eyes your eyes sorry you've got your eyes closed he's just kissed you tenderly on top of the head and the look on your face is like maybe when people come out of the river they've been born again like they get dunked and then they come up and then they feel the connection with the lord in a way that i don't know that's how i felt transcendent i really felt born again yeah i felt well and here's a little btia I was coming out of a very dark week.

[1677] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1678] Very dark.

[1679] And I was very upset going in.

[1680] Earlier that day.

[1681] Yes, and I was like, this sucks.

[1682] This sucks that this is happening on this day.

[1683] Physically and mentally, no matter what I do, I will not be able to enjoy this the way I want.

[1684] And be present.

[1685] And be present the way I want.

[1686] And he defied, well, first of all, I'll give you credit here.

[1687] You pulled me aside before the interview and you said, don't let anything that's going on affect this because this is too special and exciting.

[1688] I think I said like think of this as mushrooms.

[1689] You're in charge right now to have an experience.

[1690] Yeah.

[1691] But hard as fuck.

[1692] Very.

[1693] And I truly did not think it was possible when even knowing I was trying to do that.

[1694] Yeah, you can't shake.

[1695] Sometimes when you're like, I know better than anyone.

[1696] Like when I'm in a anger spiral or a sad spiral, like, it just doesn't matter what I'm witnessing.

[1697] I don't care.

[1698] Yeah.

[1699] It's so hard.

[1700] Yeah.

[1701] It was super impressive if you turned it around.

[1702] And a lot of it's him.

[1703] It is him.

[1704] It is him.

[1705] He has changed my mood and life.

[1706] Again.

[1707] So many times in my life and he did it again.

[1708] Yeah.

[1709] And I could not.

[1710] That was the look.

[1711] It's just like, this person is magic to you.

[1712] to me. The thing you said that I loved was the look on your face post hug was like, oh my God, he actually is the person I want him to be in that he recognizes I love him and he's going to take the time and give me what I want.

[1713] He's going to be generous because he's a good person.

[1714] Yeah.

[1715] In that moment, he was giving me a gift that he knew I wanted.

[1716] It wasn't for him to kiss me. me on the head.

[1717] I would argue differently, but yeah.

[1718] Right, but you're wrong.

[1719] He did that for me because he knew and he was sitting across for me and we were talking about it.

[1720] And I felt this in the moment, but also editing back, he was just so kind with his spirit towards me. Like, anytime I said anything, he would really, like, listen and really respond.

[1721] And even if I just, like, said something.

[1722] He'd see you every time.

[1723] He would acknowledge it and not patronizing at all.

[1724] It was just a kind.

[1725] of heart.

[1726] I think he is that type of person.

[1727] He wants you to feel seen and heard.

[1728] Yeah, it was really special.

[1729] But also the look is obviously about him, but it really is not.

[1730] It's about me. It was about the fact that that was happening.

[1731] Yeah.

[1732] I could not believe that the person that I wished was camping.

[1733] Yes.

[1734] And I put so much energy into that moment that it happened.

[1735] Can I say that was my favorite moment of the interview was the camping example?

[1736] Because that really got him.

[1737] He started laughing pretty hard.

[1738] Like, oh, my God, you thought I was.

[1739] Like, that's crazy.

[1740] And what I liked about it was, so this wasn't about me at all.

[1741] This was in service of you.

[1742] But also, here's the tight rope I thought I was walking, which is he doesn't listen to the show.

[1743] So I got to bring him up to speed on the impact you've made on his life, which is hard to do.

[1744] And naturally, he's a movie star, so a lot of people are in love with him.

[1745] So there's nothing really new about hearing that someone's in love with them.

[1746] Yes.

[1747] And so as a guest, I want to leave it at that.

[1748] But I owe the arm cherries.

[1749] The arm cherries know what this moment's all about.

[1750] And so I got to kind of keep touching down on that a little bit.

[1751] Yeah.

[1752] But I don't want to overwhelm him with it.

[1753] Like he is doing a, what are those charity things we do where you hang out with someone who wins?

[1754] Make a wish.

[1755] No, no, no, no, no. Oh, maize.

[1756] That's much sadder.

[1757] Amaze.

[1758] Oh.

[1759] So when we brought up camping and it really got him.

[1760] I was like, here we go.

[1761] Now we're somewhere new.

[1762] This is a new element.

[1763] He's never heard that the people that were in love with him thought he might be camping in Georgia.

[1764] And I was like, okay, here we go.

[1765] This is like, this is good.

[1766] It's really hard in these circumstances, a little bit with Amy, too.

[1767] Polar.

[1768] I mean, again, there is just no other person besides Ben on planet Earth.

[1769] or maybe if the entire cast of friends was sitting here together.

[1770] Right, right.

[1771] That could have that kind of effect on me. Yeah, other than Amy.

[1772] No, no, and Amy was, but it was still different because Ben and Matt, they represented something.

[1773] Mm -hmm.

[1774] They represented this, like, future happiness.

[1775] Yeah.

[1776] For me. Mm -hmm.

[1777] Amy Polar was just an idol.

[1778] Yes.

[1779] It's a different thing, and it sounds maybe the same.

[1780] It's very hard to articulate, which is why knowing this was going to happen, it's like there's just no way to articulate the feeling that he's given me so many times.

[1781] Truly, this escape.

[1782] I think it's how you regulated.

[1783] So, like, I regulated through sex and I regulated through adrenaline -seeking and drugs.

[1784] Yeah.

[1785] But I think when you had moments of, like, I don't belong here, I'm out of sorts.

[1786] Yeah.

[1787] You went to that fantasy and it was very comforting.

[1788] Absolutely.

[1789] So it's kind of like you meeting cocaine for the first time, for me. Yeah, maybe.

[1790] I think all these things that I felt I didn't have that I wanted approval, basically from boys, not men.

[1791] Well, and men, like my friend's dad.

[1792] That's right.

[1793] That's nice you call them your friend.

[1794] Well, my enemy's dad.

[1795] Yes.

[1796] Your subjects.

[1797] My bully.

[1798] Your subjects.

[1799] Yeah, I don't want to talk about that in this episode.

[1800] All right.

[1801] So, especially the boy thing.

[1802] It was not happening in real life, but it didn't matter.

[1803] It didn't matter about the Dairy Queen boy because I was going to meet Matt Damon.

[1804] That's who you wanted to be with.

[1805] So everyone was short of that, so it didn't matter.

[1806] It was a way to make it not matter.

[1807] Yeah, it was very profound.

[1808] One of my favorite parts of the interview was that you guys both were in love with Lisa Bonay.

[1809] That was a highlight for me. I loved that.

[1810] And then he was like talking about how hot she was on the Cosby show.

[1811] And I was like, what about Angel Heart?

[1812] And we both had the same thing, which is like, and we were like intimidating.

[1813] Yeah.

[1814] Like fear.

[1815] Yeah.

[1816] Like that's the human experience.

[1817] It's like total in love and then coupled with fear that I couldn't please this goddess.

[1818] Of course.

[1819] Oh, man. It's amazing we can even get out of bread and bread.

[1820] and brush a brief in the brorning.

[1821] I know.

[1822] Other favorite part for me was how much he kept sticking up for his bro.

[1823] I loved that.

[1824] He was mad people thought that he didn't write it.

[1825] Like me, I'd be like, yeah, yeah.

[1826] Oh, I'm so mad.

[1827] Everyone's giving me the credit.

[1828] I would love it personally.

[1829] Oh, yes.

[1830] Oh, they think I'm the genie.

[1831] I'm a piece of shit.

[1832] That's not true.

[1833] That's not true.

[1834] You've done that with this show with me plenty of times.

[1835] Okay.

[1836] Well, anyways, I really loved how he was still pissed.

[1837] that Ben got the rough treatment during the J -Lo thing.

[1838] I know.

[1839] So I was on Instagram last night.

[1840] For some reason, in my little suggestions thing, was a picture of your boyfriend in Jennifer Lopez.

[1841] That's right.

[1842] On a boat.

[1843] It was her birthday, her 50 -1st or second birthday.

[1844] Of course, I was sad when I saw that picture.

[1845] Okay.

[1846] Okay.

[1847] Even though you just connected with Matt?

[1848] Well, that's even more why.

[1849] Oh, my God.

[1850] The single one.

[1851] I would connect with as well.

[1852] Maybe I would connect with in the same way.

[1853] And he's single.

[1854] You're still doing the campground thing, which I love.

[1855] I won't.

[1856] I'll never stop.

[1857] I want you to be in hospice and think, I wonder if Matt might be a hospice nurse.

[1858] He might come in and administer my stuff.

[1859] Well, of course I've already had bazaic.

[1860] I'm like, is he going to email me?

[1861] Like, I wonder if he'll email and then we'll like have a email relationship.

[1862] Not not like.

[1863] In inappropriate.

[1864] It's just like, we'll be connected now.

[1865] Yeah.

[1866] And, yeah, it's just not going to stop with them.

[1867] What have you requested a picture of your boobs on the email?

[1868] After several, after like two dozen really nice back and forth.

[1869] Wait, is he still married?

[1870] Yeah.

[1871] I can't.

[1872] Okay.

[1873] Okay.

[1874] Well, I'll ask him if his wife says it's okay.

[1875] Okay, ask her, yeah.

[1876] So what's her email?

[1877] Yeah.

[1878] I'll send her a picture of my boobs.

[1879] If she thinks you should have them, she can send it to you.

[1880] I don't want to get him in trouble for asking.

[1881] So first I'd have to say, hey, is your wife cool with this?

[1882] Yeah.

[1883] And then if he said, yeah, she is.

[1884] Yeah.

[1885] Then I would say, okay, great.

[1886] So here's what I'm going to do.

[1887] I'm going to email her and just double check.

[1888] That's great.

[1889] Double check.

[1890] I got the double entendre of the double.

[1891] Oh, my goodness.

[1892] Anyways, what a day.

[1893] What a day.

[1894] Okay, I want to make a correction.

[1895] Okay.

[1896] So you said in school I would close my eyes and I would watch the movie.

[1897] Yeah.

[1898] My eyes weren't closed.

[1899] Oh, they weren't?

[1900] No. Because I can't close my eyes in class.

[1901] That would look, I'd get in trouble.

[1902] My eyes were just fully open and I would just like stare at the board or the teacher.

[1903] Hold on a second, though.

[1904] I used to sleep in class, like go out for the whole class on my desk.

[1905] Michigan Public School.

[1906] Yeah.

[1907] Well, I'm Magnus Cum Laude from.

[1908] Oh, my God.

[1909] The other day we were doing it.

[1910] episode of Momsplaining and Kristen said you were Suma and I was like, that's wrong.

[1911] Are you corrected her?

[1912] Well, no, I didn't correct her.

[1913] Oh, but you were outraged.

[1914] I was outraged.

[1915] I was like, that's really wrong and we got to figure this out.

[1916] That's unethical, yeah.

[1917] I got to figure this out.

[1918] Bree was Suma.

[1919] So was I. I know.

[1920] We know that's established.

[1921] Okay.

[1922] You brought it up, not me. Okay, so.

[1923] You weren't closing your eyes.

[1924] You were watching it.

[1925] Thank you.

[1926] Yeah.

[1927] I was watching with my.

[1928] I'd be more worried about you if I was a teacher.

[1929] If I looked at your wide open eyes and you were fucking disassociated.

[1930] I wonder if, like, that's why I have seizures.

[1931] Oh, my God.

[1932] Wow, so maybe he's to blame for that.

[1933] Well, that just makes me feel closer to him.

[1934] That makes he love my seizures.

[1935] Oh, yeah.

[1936] They're a little mat tremors.

[1937] Would you watch it in real time or a little quicker?

[1938] I would watch scenes.

[1939] I couldn't, I mean, I couldn't really watch the whole movie.

[1940] That's an hour and a half.

[1941] and like, you know, classes like whatever, 45 minutes.

[1942] Maybe even two hours.

[1943] Okay, a couple more little fackies.

[1944] Okay.

[1945] How much was Stallone offered for Rocky?

[1946] Oh, I hope you find this out.

[1947] So at 30 years ago, with just $106 in his bank account, Stallone turned down a $300 ,000 offer.

[1948] There we go.

[1949] The equivalent of $1 million today.

[1950] Okay.

[1951] Well, sorry, that was in 2014.

[1952] Oh, my God.

[1953] So $1 .4 million in 2014 for the rights to Rocky.

[1954] He was determined to make the film he wrote on his term starring himself.

[1955] Yeah.

[1956] So cool.

[1957] It is very cool.

[1958] You know, you got to wonder, like, we tell these stories.

[1959] It's kind of like we had a guess on.

[1960] We were talking about getting over trauma and how we've come to appreciate it.

[1961] But then you really discount the millions of people that trauma destroyed, ruin their fucking life.

[1962] So we know this story about the guy that held out, but we don't necessarily know the 6 ,000 people that turned that down.

[1963] And then they weren't allowed to start in the movie.

[1964] And they had nothing.

[1965] Yeah.

[1966] So it could be falsely encouraging.

[1967] But any encouragement we'll take.

[1968] Yeah, we'll take it.

[1969] That's the American Dream in a nutshell.

[1970] I mean, what percentage of people go from a dirt road to a mansion?

[1971] Very small.

[1972] But because it does happen, we all cling to it.

[1973] Mm -hmm.

[1974] Yeah.

[1975] Okay, Rocky did win Best Picture.

[1976] I mean, I'm sorry, 77.

[1977] We got to watch that.

[1978] And Best actor.

[1979] Best director, best supporting actor, best actress, best screenplay.

[1980] Can this be?

[1981] Fucking sweep.

[1982] Wow.

[1983] It's a great movie.

[1984] We should watch it.

[1985] Okay.

[1986] The Martin Luther King quote that Matt referenced is, The Ultimate Measure of a Man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

[1987] Yeah.

[1988] He's kind of biting on Lincoln, one of Lincoln's quotes that happened a hundred years before.

[1989] Well, maybe he bit on somebody else's.

[1990] Probably.

[1991] But Lincoln's was if you want to know a man's character, give him great.

[1992] power or something like that okay but it's that's the theme of it if you want a test a man's character give him power okay pretty close who's closer matter i percentage wise hmm i didn't write down the exact way he well maybe you should watch without a paddle with your eyes open okay why don't you try that on okay no because you do an indian accent and it's offensive you told me that very short though okay but i haven't watched that because of that Well, actually, that's made up.

[1993] Yeah, you just don't even want to see yet.

[1994] No, I do, but you don't want me to see that part.

[1995] I'm not a very good actor yet.

[1996] I have moments that I'm good, but I also have some moments of them.

[1997] I've seen you in all of the movies that you accept.

[1998] You do think I should watch Employee of the Month.

[1999] That's my best performance of my life.

[2000] No, not.

[2001] Yes, yes.

[2002] That can't be.

[2003] Parenthood, Idiocracy.

[2004] No. Really?

[2005] Well, let me preface it by saying, I don't say a single thing that was written in that.

[2006] script like i came in there was nothing there and i gave it a thousand percent yeah and i think it turned out great it's the thing probably the role i'm proud of so wow well i'm gonna watch it after i watch google hunting with my eyes open maybe god all i ask of you is don't put on employee the month and while you're staring at the screen i think you're watching it you're watching the other movie on your eyeballs that would be so disrespectful just don't watch it if that's gonna be the case.

[2007] Okay, I can promise you that.

[2008] Okay.

[2009] Okay, we there, this is a fact that I really want to know, but I couldn't find, but and I thought we have an in and we should ask, how much does it cost to get signage on a Grand Prix car?

[2010] I don't think he'll know that.

[2011] Really?

[2012] Calling then a Ricardo.

[2013] How much signage?

[2014] Big.

[2015] What a waste of time.

[2016] He actually, I can't send him to him right now.

[2017] He's, he's literally practicing in Budapest.

[2018] They have a race this weekend.

[2019] Too bad?

[2020] You know what?

[2021] Too bad.

[2022] If he wants to be our friend and be a part of this fact check, it's just.

[2023] If people are confused, we're texting Danny Ricardo, who is currently, who is currently at a Formula One race right now, training.

[2024] Budapest.

[2025] And he needs to stop.

[2026] He needs to pull over his car.

[2027] What if he has his phone in his car?

[2028] And it just went off and he's like reading this text as he drives.

[2029] And then he crashes in when they find his phone, it's an image of this.

[2030] Well, he crashes, but he's hurt.

[2031] but not that hurt, and then I'll fly out.

[2032] Oh, and nurse him.

[2033] Yes.

[2034] And he'll cry.

[2035] Oh, wow.

[2036] Help us out for this fact check if you could, period.

[2037] I know you're not busy in Budapest at all, period.

[2038] How much do you think this ocean's 12 signage?

[2039] Signage would have cost, question mark.

[2040] Or even better, comma, how much would it cost today, period, just for one race, question mark?

[2041] Should we commit Spotify?

[2042] Oh.

[2043] To put our name on Daniel Ricardo.

[2044] For Austin.

[2045] Yes.

[2046] Should we talk about the fact that he was on Smartless?

[2047] And I was a little upset by that.

[2048] I don't think you loved it either.

[2049] I don't like that.

[2050] I'm rooting for the guys from Smartless.

[2051] Obviously, they're all friends.

[2052] But I just wanted Danny to be our thing.

[2053] Do they even know about Danny?

[2054] Apparently, I asked him how it went.

[2055] Apparently Bateman knew his shit, which I wouldn't put Bass Bateman.

[2056] But I didn't like that either.

[2057] I wanted to be the one actor.

[2058] They don't really know about Danny like we do.

[2059] They don't understand.

[2060] They haven't endangered Danny's life on a 100 -c -dirt bike out in Santa Clarita.

[2061] If Danny crashes and gets a little hurt, are they going to fly out and nurse him?

[2062] Not a chance.

[2063] Not a chance.

[2064] God.

[2065] Are they going to give him a bath and make sure his generals are super clean in the bath?

[2066] No. What I mean?

[2067] Yes.

[2068] Are they going to be willing to be nude so that he knows they're not going to say.

[2069] steal anything out of his hotel room.

[2070] No. They're not willing to do that.

[2071] Uh -uh.

[2072] Yeah.

[2073] Okay.

[2074] Well, they're not offering nearly the services.

[2075] We are.

[2076] And by we, I mean you.

[2077] Okay.

[2078] So, thanks for giving me that.

[2079] Oh, thank you for giving me that.

[2080] I love Matt Damon.

[2081] Like, love him.

[2082] He's fantastic.

[2083] Well, that was the other thing.

[2084] It was like, of course, we were blinded by this whole thing with me. And then he left and I was like, oh, yeah.

[2085] Also, Matt Damon's a huge movie star.

[2086] Like, that was, that was a huge get.

[2087] Absolutely, absolutely.

[2088] It's easy to forget.

[2089] Yeah.

[2090] Like, it was all about you for me that day.

[2091] He was immaterial.

[2092] And I love him.

[2093] Oh, my God.

[2094] I love him.

[2095] He's so phenomenal.

[2096] I'm just grateful that he exists.

[2097] Me too.

[2098] And he looked great.

[2099] And when I hugged him, I felt his lats and they were really nice.

[2100] They were strong.

[2101] But he can do a lot of pull -ups.

[2102] He had a great hugging ability.

[2103] He did.

[2104] Yeah.

[2105] Fuck.

[2106] I've thought about it a lot of times.

[2107] Oh, tell me. And is it, does it veer into PQ or is it just emotional, like, childhood nurturing?

[2108] No, it's both, of course.

[2109] Oh, the perfect mix.

[2110] A father and a lover.

[2111] That's what you want.

[2112] That's exactly what you want.

[2113] All right, that's it.

[2114] Well, that was great.

[2115] One down, one to go.

[2116] I want them to come on together to promote that movie.

[2117] Me too.

[2118] But I want him singular.

[2119] Well, I want Ben on singular.

[2120] And then I want them to come on together.

[2121] Then we have done all of it.

[2122] Yeah, every permutation.

[2123] All right.

[2124] I love you.

[2125] I love you.

[2126] I'm so happy I was here to witness that.

[2127] God, did that make me happy?

[2128] I think I showed as many people the picture as you do.

[2129] Yeah, I liked that you got a lot of vicarious joy.

[2130] I did, I did.

[2131] I was so happy for you.

[2132] Rob, who do you want us to get in here?

[2133] I'd be Tom York.

[2134] Tom York.

[2135] Okay.

[2136] I mean like Phoebe Waller Bridge would be up there.

[2137] Oh, I want her too.

[2138] But Phoebe can't have the history.

[2139] No, no. I think Jimmy Kimmel was as close to.

[2140] to that kind of history for me. Oh, really?

[2141] It was like a first guess.

[2142] Oh.

[2143] Wow.

[2144] That's my favorite Tom Yarks song.

[2145] Robbie Robby, Robert.

[2146] It is from The Eraser, and it's called The Eraser.

[2147] All right.

[2148] Okay.

[2149] I love you.

[2150] Love you.

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