Sophia Bush

[0] Hello, everybody.

[1] Welcome to armchair expert.

[2] I'm Dax Shepard.

[3] I'm joined with Monica Padman.

[4] Hi.

[5] Hi.

[6] Today we have Sophia Bush.

[7] You probably fell in love with her on one tree hill and then carried that straight on over to Chicago PD.

[8] And now she's in the attic.

[9] Talk about life on planet Earth.

[10] So please enjoy Sophia Bush.

[11] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[12] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[13] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[14] The last one we were listening to is when you guys interviewed Ike Barron Holtz.

[15] Oh my God, how funny is.

[16] And the end of the episode takes like such a weird turn.

[17] Which part?

[18] You got into talking about like having an uncontrollable erection because of a scooter you found in your garage.

[19] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 12.

[20] And I was like, this isn't where I thought that this hour was going to go at all, but I'm here for it.

[21] Monica.

[22] There's an anomalous number of Olympians who seem to get aroused during the medal ceremony because there's emotions.

[23] There's pictures.

[24] That word is so intense.

[25] I like it.

[26] It's kind of an automontapia.

[27] Engorged.

[28] There's something about it that sounds like what it is.

[29] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[30] It gives me the little, like, in the back of the teeth where I'm like, oh, yeah, that one I can't.

[31] Yeah.

[32] I have a few of those words.

[33] For me, panties is one.

[34] I can't stand the word.

[35] I hate that word.

[36] Even though you use it sometimes.

[37] Well, I use it for men.

[38] I always call male panties, male panties.

[39] You've also said panty dropper.

[40] I know, I have said that.

[41] I do use the word panty dropper occasionally.

[42] And I'm almost always saying it ironically.

[43] Like, I'll say, like, we're going to the sand dunes tomorrow.

[44] And my sand car does wheelies.

[45] I'll say like, oh, that thing, if I do a wheelie, that's a panty dropper.

[46] Now, I'm very in on the joke.

[47] No girl on Planet Earth cares if I do a wheelie.

[48] Yes.

[49] And in my mind, I've convinced myself that it is some kind of an aphrodisiac when it's just not.

[50] I mean, for a small sector.

[51] Sure.

[52] I would say it's a small sector.

[53] It's a niche market, if you will.

[54] Do you suffer from that at all?

[55] Have you ever, like, really been convinced your boyfriend?

[56] Like, he loves that I cook, you know, Sunday dinner or whatever.

[57] And come to find out he was just getting through it.

[58] I don't know.

[59] I think I'm at the point where I'm pretty willing to look at my own shit.

[60] Because everybody has it.

[61] Like, everybody has things about them that are probably a lot.

[62] I make no mistakes that the things that might be frustrating about me to a partner are frustrating.

[63] Okay.

[64] You know, nobody likes that I am so hyper focused on the news that I take my phone everywhere.

[65] I read, I'm reading news articles while doing other things that you think would need focus, but I can't stop.

[66] Is that why you fell down?

[67] Actually, the irony is that.

[68] A backstory.

[69] Let me just bring everyone up to speed.

[70] You arrived and you had a limp, you had a visible limp, and you're in quite a bit of pain, and that's because you had an accident.

[71] Oh, yeah.

[72] I took such a spill at all.

[73] And the irony is that I wasn't doing anything.

[74] I had this little jacket over one arm and my bag over the other.

[75] I had my phone in the hand that had the jacket sort of over the arm, but it wasn't open.

[76] Okay.

[77] And I had an iced tea in my right hand.

[78] Go on.

[79] And I was walking out of the house saying goodbye to Jenny, my best friend who lives with me. And I was like, okay, I'll see you.

[80] And I just, when I tell you that I ate shit, it was like I took a step with my right foot.

[81] It went across my body to the left, like I was doing a high kick, but I wasn't.

[82] And I fell in such a way that I landed on my right knee.

[83] I landed, my right elbow went into a box that was on the floor, which is now fully collapsed and crushed.

[84] Because all of my weight fell onto it also.

[85] But I managed to not spill the ice D. But a very happy accident was that there was a collapsible box in your landing zone, which is for people not on the inside of showbiz.

[86] That is what stuntmen are jumping off buildings into and jumping cars into.

[87] It's a big pile of boxes.

[88] That box probably saved my elbow and this interview.

[89] Yeah.

[90] You know, it does make me think of one of the funniest injuries I've ever heard is my buddy Tim Lovsted, who used to be a cashier at Vaughns.

[91] He was just standing there ringing people up and out of nowhere.

[92] He was like, oh, and blew his ACL, just standing still, ringing up groceries.

[93] It just snapped.

[94] but blue in ACL.

[95] He's like, it couldn't have been a more embarrassing.

[96] He was like standing, he was talking to somebody, he was ringing shit up, and then he was collapsed on the ground, screaming, and nothing had happened.

[97] That's a bummer of a way.

[98] You want to be like throwing a football at the Super Bowl.

[99] You want your injury to be kind of sexy, so you have a story.

[100] Yes, and again, and this will be the last time I hijack your interview.

[101] My best friend, Aaron Weekly, I called in this radio station and won him a trip to, Tiger's fantasy camp in Florida, Tigers, you know, the baseball team.

[102] And he got down there and the speech at the beginning was, listen to everybody, we want you to start slow and then back it down from there.

[103] Because everyone at fantasy camp is in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, and they're going to play with real -life tigers.

[104] And sure enough, Aaron said he saw like three or four guys blow ACLs, just running to second base.

[105] You know, they haven't probably sprinted in 20 years, but they're there and they're excited and they have the uniform on it.

[106] Well, you have the adrenaline so you don't realize your body is screaming no while your little inner child brain is screaming yes.

[107] Yes.

[108] You said he saw a guy rounding second and just he just collapsed dead, you know, not dead.

[109] No, no, no, no, no, no, yeah.

[110] The story took a turn.

[111] I thought we were really good.

[112] They lost three guys at fantasy camp is where the story's going down.

[113] Now, something interesting that I learned about you today and I want to know if this is one of these things because as actors we sometimes end up putting things, I mean, granted, this is a long time ago where you put stuff skills.

[114] Remember that part of your biography?

[115] No. Your resume.

[116] Yeah.

[117] On the back of a headshot, you'd like, I can pirouette or I do gymnastics.

[118] It was always like your old like been around the block manager, your first manager who was like, you've been to a dance class, you're a ballerina.

[119] And you're like, well, it feels like a stretch.

[120] Okay.

[121] You're so right.

[122] My mind was just littered with lies.

[123] I could fence.

[124] I had like combat training.

[125] I'm in five plays I never was in.

[126] But it said that you do your own stunt.

[127] driving.

[128] I do.

[129] That I do.

[130] That you do.

[131] And where did that begin?

[132] I don't know what it is because I'm not particularly a fan of watching car races.

[133] It bores me. But something about loving, and maybe it was the romantic idea of car racing really got me into as I started being a working actor and seeing how the stunt department's all worked into wanting to do that.

[134] And I had this badass stunt coordinator named Mike Owens on this movie I shot out in Texas and New Mexico who's the guy like you know I want to say he coordinated the driving on the Italian job like he does really hardcore shit right and you know had choppers coming in to do stunts and all kinds I was just like like the my little inner tomb boy was like this is the coolest shit ever yeah and so I started asking to learn stuff from Mike and then worked on a cop show in Chicago what do you mean work you're not still working on that no I quit my job Oh, bro.

[135] You did?

[136] You did?

[137] I'll tell you all about it.

[138] Oh, my goodness.

[139] But I was working on this show, and my stunt coordinator was like, oh, you're like actually a really good driver.

[140] He sort of took a notice of how excited I get about all that stuff, and then he started letting me do more and more of the things, like we were doing near misses and 70 -mile -an -hour chases with, you know, the blacked -out SUV that has the crane camera on and all.

[141] And they were just like, okay, so you're on the stunt team, great.

[142] And then an actor who I adore, who wasn't trying to be funny, but is very comedic who was on that show with me, who shall remain nameless because he'll be very angry if anyone knows that he did it, got into an accident on set, literally going five miles an hour.

[143] And I was like, bro, I'm doing like stunt sequences with near misses with six stunt drivers.

[144] And you had to pull into a parking lot and you couldn't do that.

[145] So then they put the kibosh on any of us driving anymore.

[146] And I was like, the highlight of this job for me is driving and doing all of this.

[147] So slowly, but surely, Tom would be like, don't tell anybody, we're going to let you do a take.

[148] So you grew up in Pasadena, which is very weird to me. Well, I grew up.

[149] Oh, oh.

[150] Like, L .A. proper.

[151] Like, my parents' first house was on 5th Street right off Sweetser.

[152] Oh, okay.

[153] Like, that's Hollywood, right?

[154] Is that Hollywood?

[155] I mean, I guess, like.

[156] Or Midwilshire, do they call that now?

[157] Midwishor, maybe.

[158] Like, it was just very cute, generic little.

[159] World War II.

[160] bungalows?

[161] Yeah, like sort of 1930s, cute tiny houses.

[162] And I remember I had this neighbor Lillian who lived across the street who was this old woman who was retired and she made dollhouse furniture.

[163] Oh, wow.

[164] She was fascinating and I would hang with her and her daughter collected vintage clothes and she wound up starting this very wildly successful, like store that then became the place that lends collectible vintage to movies and, you know, super, super famous people.

[165] And both parents were into photography in one way or another?

[166] Yeah, my dad's a photographer.

[167] And did mom run a studio of some type?

[168] He ran his studio for a while.

[169] So when they met, my parents met because they lived in the same apartment building in Midwilshire, right off LaBraya and sixth.

[170] And my mom had this giant Doberman named Bouncer.

[171] And Bouncer would always try to bite my dad.

[172] Okay.

[173] And Bouncer was like the most wildly well -behaved dog.

[174] you could say anything to him and he would listen to you and he would always growl and nip at my dad and my mom was like, I'm so sorry he doesn't have a problem with anybody.

[175] I don't know why he doesn't like you and I think Bouncer was like, get out of here, man. He knew, Bouncer knew he was going to be replaced by your father.

[176] But the irony is that my mother didn't.

[177] My mother grew up like super Italian family in Jersey and she's like, you know, I moved to L .A. She's like, here's this photographer wearing tight pants.

[178] He flips his hair.

[179] I just figured he was gay.

[180] I figured we were going to be friends.

[181] She was like the female karate kid.

[182] Isn't that the story of karate kid?

[183] New Jersey, Italians moved to the valley and all hell breaks.

[184] Yeah, the munch.

[185] Yeah, so my mom, like, thought my dad just was being nice.

[186] And my dad was like, I was in love with you.

[187] Oh, wow.

[188] You and Bella are so similar.

[189] I was just thinking that.

[190] Yeah.

[191] I was literally just thinking that.

[192] In preparation of talking to you, you and Kristen are friends.

[193] You've been friends for, I don't know, a decade now or something, a long time.

[194] Your wife's a bad out.

[195] And you guys are pretty damn similar.

[196] I don't want to take anything away from your originality or hers, but I will say you seem to be almost carbon copies of one another.

[197] I love that.

[198] People say that, and here's what's interesting, is like, Bell's one of those people that I've known and I see you guys at stuff, and so many of those things we have to go to are so weird.

[199] And like, when I see you guys in a room, I'm like, yes, other sane people I can hide in the corner with.

[200] But I don't get to really hang with her Because I never really am here And so she's one of those people Who I'm like, We are friends who never see each other Right But like from a distance We're always slow clapping each other's stuff And whatever And as someone who's in the eye of her storm I can tell you It's no comment on her desire To be friends with you I don't know that she has 30 seconds To add to anything She's just quadruple booked All day every day And that's just Yep And there's something I think when you work in the world, the way that we do is women who also have all the other things that ladies are saddled with.

[201] It's like you just, you know, there seems to be this, I don't know, just like this assumption that we're meant to do everything and be everywhere and service everything and support all the things.

[202] And it feels like a lot.

[203] And I can't imagine, you know, you guys have a family.

[204] Like I get overwhelmed having dogs, which might also be because I'm single so I don't have somebody splitting responsibilities with me. sure but it's it's a it feels like you need a houseboy like me you need someone that's there like you know just managing shit cool but i want to i want to ask you do you so you're very very philanthropic if people don't know that you're involved in 87 different charities and movements and all kinds of things and you it sounds like you feel like you're answering a call that you're expected to answer no oh okay so it's not that your woman is the motivating force behind all that activity, or is it?

[205] What do you mean by that?

[206] Well, you said as women were expected to go and...

[207] Well, I think we're just expected to be all things for all people all of the time.

[208] Okay.

[209] So as a woman, and I noticed this because, as we're talking about our group of friends, we have an incredible community that is really invested in each other and supportive of each other and willing to have big, deep conversations and shows up for each other.

[210] So there's a lot of analysis of the world that happens around the dinner table and that happens in real time in workspaces and whatever.

[211] And it's just in the minutia, you know, when we think about macroaggressions to microaggressions, for example, that women are on the receiving end of, a man who in our kind of workplace stands up and says like, this is unacceptable, the way this is going, whatever, example X, stands up for the coworkers and the crew.

[212] People go, oh, he's, he's really, he's a stupendous badass, you know, and he's very firm.

[213] I hear that men are very firm.

[214] And women, when we do that, get called bitches.

[215] People make flippant jokes about, like, are you on your period?

[216] We get called difficult.

[217] And what we're on the receiving end of is different.

[218] We're supposed to go in and be the star of a show and everyone's favorite person.

[219] and unbelievably, you know, nice to bend over backwards for everybody in the room to the point that your own spine breaks.

[220] And if you complain that your back is broken, you're an asshole.

[221] And so the - Well, now I'm going to suggest something very provocative that I'll regret.

[222] But I'm just now hearing you say that and I want to think all of it through.

[223] So that's 100 % true.

[224] I completely agree with you.

[225] And I've been on shows where there is a powerful dynamic woman who's not afraid to speak up.

[226] And then I've heard people call her that.

[227] And that's true.

[228] I totally agree with you.

[229] But don't you think somewhere in this recipe is also the fact that you would care that people would call you a bitch?

[230] Because a guy would go, no, no, no, this is a total waste of time.

[231] We're not doing this.

[232] No one will go home on time.

[233] We're going to do this, right?

[234] And now I've been that person.

[235] And I actually think, well, some people are going to think I'm a dick.

[236] And then I go, that's okay.

[237] I'm okay.

[238] I can live with like, do you think maybe there's also a secondary layer where we men are maybe in, of course, societally, I don't think biologically, maybe we're a little less codependent in that way, that we're not as concerned if people are saying that.

[239] Sure, I see what you're saying.

[240] And then to raise it another point further, if I may. Sure.

[241] One of the things I think is interesting about that is whether you're codependent or not, I mean, you go back into sort of psychology and as many of us have, when you've invested deeply in your own mental health, you understand, like, was I a child who formed insecure or secure attachments?

[242] What was my home life like?

[243] What trauma do I carry?

[244] That, to me, speaks more clinically to whether or not you operate as a codependent person.

[245] But what I think the difference is, is you as a man, and I'm guessing here, but it's a theory, if someone on set says, you know, he's really a dick, you're like, yeah, I don't care.

[246] I know I'm doing the right thing.

[247] For me as a woman, if somebody says, well, she's really a bitch, I also don't care.

[248] I'm going to do the right thing.

[249] I'm going to say to my producers, for example, when we're shooting in below freezing temperatures and six of our PAs have pneumonia and they don't care, I'm going to raise hell about it.

[250] And I have and I never will not do that.

[251] Right.

[252] But the difference is men are societally sort of idolized for strength and for being dicks and for being bossy.

[253] But if women are bossy, they're shrews, they're cunts, they're horrible.

[254] Nobody wants to be around them.

[255] Why won't they just kiss the ring?

[256] There's a different set of ramifications and a different kind of follow -up set of effect for women who are quote -unquote difficult.

[257] And that's more what I think is hard, is that it might be the same feedback in the moment, but it accrues for us in a different way because women's bullishness is, put into a negative bucket, whereas men's bullishness is put into a bucket that has to do with strength.

[258] And you've seen so many actors in our business, male actors, get away with, like, terrible behavior for decades.

[259] And people say, well, you know, but he's just so talented.

[260] But a woman makes one very public screw up, and she's like blacklisted forever.

[261] I think the market neutralizes that aspect.

[262] Because there are tons of actresses that are absolutely hellacious to be around and they're super talented and people go see their product and they just keep getting hired.

[263] I think if you're, if people consume your product in this business, you're going to be allowed to work.

[264] Yeah.

[265] Until the second you have a hiccup and then you're out, which you see, I'm sure you've been doing this long enough and I've been doing it long enough where it's like I've, I've been in the horse race next to a lot of dudes and some of them were dicks and some of them were nice.

[266] And we've all had some humbling moments.

[267] I've been lucky enough to being given second chances and so on and so forth.

[268] I think largely because I'm fun to be around on a set.

[269] But the guys that were infamous dicks, they're out.

[270] Like the second they stumble, it's see you later.

[271] Yeah.

[272] Well, and I think it's great that there's something that holds you accountable.

[273] There has to be.

[274] But I just, I just, I know.

[275] know what it is to sit in my communities of women and see that there are just, it's like there's more boxes next to your name than if you're a man in a lot of circumstances.

[276] And by the way, that's not me saying that life is not difficult as a man or our industry is not difficult as a man or that men don't face unfair circumstances all of the time.

[277] Of course you do.

[278] So I'm pointing this out brilliantly on Twitter, which is a great way to describe white privilege because I'm not always...

[279] I was just going to bring up a white privilege example.

[280] I'm not always in love with how it's rolled out as a concept.

[281] A great way to describe white privilege is your life will be very difficult, but your skin color won't be one of the reasons your life's difficult.

[282] Exactly.

[283] And so your life as a man will be very difficult, but being a man likely won't be the cause of those difficulties.

[284] Which I think is a great...

[285] For me, I don't know why.

[286] That seems like a very non -triggering way to phrase it.

[287] Yeah, and I just had that conversation.

[288] I have had like this very amazing out -of -body experience last week.

[289] And I got to speak at the Institute of Politics at Harvard, which was like, it was the coolest.

[290] And I spoke with one of my dear friends who is an activist and like just one of the most inspiring women on the planet, Brittany Packnet.

[291] You should follow her on all social media if you want to know about sort of justice, racial justice, intersectionality.

[292] She's a legend.

[293] And Simone Sanders, who is a commentator on CNN a lot.

[294] And it was a very important conversation we got to have.

[295] have, and I really was honored to be in the room with those two women, and then past the conversation we were having as women, the conversation we were having about race, to be a white woman really sitting and conversing with two black women who I adore, idolized, respect, and I'm consistently just so impressed with, and I learned so much from, and to sit and talk about what allyship looks like.

[296] And for me to be able to say to the women who look like me in the room, guys, I'm not saying your life isn't hard and the men who look like me in the room.

[297] That isn't it.

[298] That doesn't mean you haven't gone to your tragedy trauma.

[299] There were some guys that looked like you.

[300] There were some guys who looked, you know, long hair.

[301] But you know, tragedy, trauma, hardship, all of those things are very real.

[302] Your life can be inexplicably and wildly hard, but your race is not one of the things adding to your hardship.

[303] Hardship is hardship.

[304] But you start, again, having these extra boxes that can be ticked when you are a person of color, when you are a woman.

[305] And the irony that people who are so afraid or who are operating in scarcity mentality, as I think we've all been consciously and subconsciously taught to do in the world, so everyone thinks they don't have enough, won't have enough, whatever the manifestation of that is, is that people say, you know, like, I want to know.

[306] know where my white privilege card is, show it to me. And I'm like, that's not, I'm not saying you haven't had it hard.

[307] What I'm saying is that the complexity that makes things harder for others is something you should have sympathy toward.

[308] And very often I feel like we're mad at the wrong people, you know, there are some things I think should supersede, quote, politics, red issue, blue issue, whatever, which I think is all bullshit America is much more purple than it is anything.

[309] I totally agree with you.

[310] How long did you live in Midwelshire before moving to just south of San Semi?

[311] We moved up there when I was eight.

[312] Eight?

[313] Yeah.

[314] And it was a tiny little town.

[315] Yeah, there were like 5 ,000 people there when I was.

[316] And was dad taking photographs there?

[317] Is that why you went?

[318] No. So we'd started taking little road trips as a family when I was a kid, and we'd drive up to California coast, and my parents would find some cute, weird seaside motel.

[319] We'd stay for the weekend.

[320] And I just always loved nature.

[321] I loved being outside so much.

[322] And my parents really fell in love with Cambria on a vacation up there.

[323] We would go up there all the time because, you know, it's like a three and a half hour drive from L .A. Yeah.

[324] We could go up on a Friday night and come home on a Sunday night.

[325] You know, my dad's career was going well.

[326] And the very notion of the American dream, they realized that in this small town, they might actually be able to find, like, a cute little vacation spot.

[327] They started looking around and finally when they were able to swing it, they did.

[328] Did he continue to work there as a photographer?

[329] Well, so what they did because they really liked the idea of me having this sort of like small town horseback riding on farms life is my dad started splitting time.

[330] And he'd, you know, work in L .A. for four days and come be with us for three days and then work in L .A. for three days and come be with us for four days.

[331] And it was like charming at first and then it was really exhausting for them.

[332] Yeah, yeah.

[333] That sounds rough.

[334] It's just hard.

[335] And you tell yourself, oh, I'm doing this for my family so they can have this idea like childhood.

[336] But then at the same time, like, what is important about childhood is just being with your family, probably.

[337] So we moved back to L .A. and my parents decided that they wanted me to go to this all -girls school in Pasadena called Westridge School for Girls.

[338] I remember this.

[339] I threw a connipion fit because I was such a tomboy.

[340] I was always out playing with the boys and, like, like digging things up and I just couldn't fathom that I was going to have to go to school with all of these girls.

[341] And I had great girl friends growing up.

[342] But I think also my family dynamic, like my closest sort of cousins are a boy my age, a boy or you're younger than me, and then a girl who's three years older than me. And we're all still the best of friends as adults.

[343] But as kids, we were like the three musketeers.

[344] And she, Jenna, was like, She was like the homecoming queen, like, who hated us, who thought we were just so annoying.

[345] Uh -huh.

[346] So I think I had this, you know, your little kid brain makes the connections with the limited amount of information it has access to.

[347] And I was like, girls are so pretty and scary and I don't get it.

[348] And the dudes, the dudes and I, like, this is what's fun.

[349] You got to figure it out, yeah.

[350] Yeah.

[351] Yeah.

[352] And so I really was so upset about this.

[353] And it wound up being awesome.

[354] You loved it.

[355] you come you came to enjoy being surrounded by women totally especially as they weren't women yeah as i got older just the change that happens to your life your psyche your body all of it to not have any pressure around men male attention uh -huh any of it i mean i went to school every day with nothing to do but learn yeah it was really special i went with a buddy who went to an all -boys school and I went like as a guest one day to be in his class.

[356] Yeah.

[357] And I was like, oh, the guys don't brush their hair.

[358] They're like a mess.

[359] No one's trying to look good.

[360] No one's really showing off for any girls.

[361] It was very, yeah, it was incredibly different from my co -ed high school watching what dudes were farting in class.

[362] No one cared.

[363] I was like, oh, my God, these guys would never get a date if they were acting this way.

[364] Yeah.

[365] Do you think in retrospect, you're glad that you went to an all -girl school?

[366] There's more gratitude on the scale.

[367] than not.

[368] But on the flip side, I will never forget the first time I was in like a truly terrible relationship.

[369] It took me so much longer to figure it out and to get out of it than it should have because I'd never been lied to before.

[370] I believed what a person, I mean, girls have little things, but no one was competing for a boy's attention.

[371] What were we lying to each other about?

[372] Certainly some of the girls in my high school were like mean girlish.

[373] like it took me a long time post -college to realize that somebody I'd been friends with forever was like actually just not nice.

[374] And when I finally sorted it out, my mom was like, welcome to the party.

[375] Yeah, yeah.

[376] I've hated that girl since you were 12.

[377] You know, like, she sucked.

[378] She was mean to you.

[379] And I was just like, oh my God.

[380] But that's a different thing than like manipulation lying, whatever.

[381] I'd never gone through the thing where like in high school, you're like, you have a boyfriend and you hold hands and you go steady.

[382] And then a week later, you find out he's been kissing like, Jane, you're like, I never did any of that.

[383] So I took so much at face value, I think because of a naivete that was born out of no experience.

[384] Did you like boys?

[385] Did you want a boyfriend?

[386] Were you upset there were no boys in your school?

[387] I wasn't upset about it.

[388] We had like schools that we would do dances with and whatever.

[389] I still had great guy friends through high school.

[390] Did you have boyfriends in high school?

[391] I did.

[392] My high school sweetheart was my best friend from camp since I was nine.

[393] Oh, really?

[394] Yeah.

[395] He's like still the best dude.

[396] Like one of my favorite people on the planet.

[397] So he didn't kiss anyone or lie to you.

[398] No. He was like a super.

[399] So maybe really you just made the mistake of dating a nice guy first.

[400] Maybe.

[401] Total mistake mistake.

[402] Big big mistake.

[403] And what I was like dating a nice guy.

[404] No, but I mean it.

[405] I just think my only relationship experience was with a really nice person.

[406] And relationships like you, you know, when you go to an all -girls school, you see like your boyfriend maybe on a Wednesday night for a movie and you go have dinner at his parents' house on a Saturday.

[407] You don't make out in the hallway and getting on the bus.

[408] There's no daily dynamic to be a part of in the same way.

[409] So I do think it probably stunted my emotional growth in those types of relationships.

[410] Right.

[411] You know, you catch up.

[412] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[413] We've all been there.

[414] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains.

[415] debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[416] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[417] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[418] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[419] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[420] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[421] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[422] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[423] What's up, guys?

[424] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[425] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[426] And I don't mean just friends.

[427] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[428] The list goes on.

[429] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[430] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[431] You're basically dating in the workplace when you're in high school.

[432] Yeah?

[433] Because, yeah.

[434] Yeah, you're like seeing each other in between classes and stuff.

[435] Oh, that's interesting.

[436] Yeah, and it's interesting because now that I would be helping pick for my own girls what I would want them to get.

[437] Right.

[438] I'd probably want them to get a good education, but it's very tricky.

[439] I got to measure like, what is important in life?

[440] It's a very short trip.

[441] It's over in a blink.

[442] Right.

[443] Am I going to be really glad that I read Lolita, or am I going to be, like, loving that I went swimming with my girlfriend after school?

[444] I don't know.

[445] I'm not sure what's important.

[446] I mean, I would say probably both.

[447] Yeah, ideally both.

[448] It doesn't affect you, you know?

[449] Yeah.

[450] I really, I will never not be grateful for my high school, English teacher who changed my perception of the world through literature and my communications teacher and my political science teacher in college.

[451] I mean, game -changing educators in my life.

[452] Also, I hated chemistry.

[453] And I was like, I'm never going to fucking need to know how to do any of this.

[454] Yeah, that's the most dangerous thing when it occurs to you.

[455] I'm never going to do trigonometry in my life.

[456] I won't pick a career.

[457] I'm never.

[458] I need this.

[459] I know it.

[460] I'm sorry.

[461] It's the worst thing you can realize.

[462] Like, yeah, there were hours I wish that I'd been, like, dicking around having a good time in high school instead of in that class.

[463] But there's classes that changed my whole life.

[464] And I think that's the point, you know, it's actually something that I've talked to Bell about is this notion that, you know, with our platforms and our job and this sort of megaphone we've been given, that part of the reason that we try to highlight a lot of really badass causes to people who are curious about philanthropy is because there's no way that every.

[465] every person who follows her or me or you on Instagram is all going to give a shit about the same thing.

[466] Sure.

[467] But imagine if we highlight 10 super cool things, ways to get active involved, sponsor a school, sponsor a teacher, work on the environment.

[468] Some of that is going to get to everybody.

[469] You know, there will always be somebody who responds to one of those things.

[470] And so then you can really help to offer resources to people.

[471] And I kind of think that that's what it must be like to be, you know, obviously much more difficult, hello.

[472] Like, let's not act like this is a true comparison.

[473] I'm clarifying for you.

[474] But, you know, I think about that for teachers, that there's teachers who know that five of 20 students don't care about their class.

[475] But the 15 who do, they might be the kind of teacher who changes their life.

[476] Well, we had a really great dude that was just in here that books on the counter, Todd Rose, who wrote this book, Dark Horse.

[477] And he studies at Harvard Education and how basically the whole system is really suffering from the fact that we design the curriculum for second grade reading.

[478] And then when you get there, when you've designed things for the average or the median educational level or reading level for a certain age group, weirdly it doesn't benefit anyone.

[479] So it's like virtually when they do the statistical analysis, half the classes above the second grade reading level that they've said was average.

[480] And then half is below.

[481] So it's really servicing nobody.

[482] It's leaving almost everyone out.

[483] Wow.

[484] And that the education itself has to be variable, which exists now with technology.

[485] So you can be teaching a classroom of 22 kids on iPads.

[486] The iPads themselves can evaluate the kid's actual retention, all this stuff, and then curtail the curriculum to their level.

[487] Oh, that's really interesting.

[488] And so it's like we have these solutions.

[489] A lot of them are a lot different than I think traditionally how we think the problem is, you know.

[490] Right.

[491] But how do you go from, you go to USC and you major in journalism?

[492] Is that accurate?

[493] Yeah, I went for the BFA acting program.

[494] Oh, okay.

[495] Because I always wanted to be a doctor.

[496] I was like dead set on being a pediatric heart surgeon.

[497] I was like, I was the weird kid who would do, you know, dissections in science class and ask Mr. Holman if I could stay after during lunch to like do the rest.

[498] I was like, I need to understand how every part of the body of XYZ thing works.

[499] And I really thought med school was it.

[500] I think it's a little bit of like a kid.

[501] of an immigrant mentality where it's like you're a doctor, you're a lawyer.

[502] Those are your options.

[503] You're going to go to college.

[504] You're going to like make the family happy, whatever.

[505] And I had an arts requirement in school in this awesome all -girls school that I went to.

[506] There were two years of arts requirements.

[507] And every semester you had to do a different kind of art. And I put the playoff till last because I had this friend, Betsy, who I'm still friends with from middle school.

[508] She is the raddest, funniest, like coolest chick.

[509] Well, you got to live up to a name like Betsy.

[510] You have to.

[511] Yeah, you can't just be named Betsy.

[512] And, like, you know, tall with, like, fire engine red hair, like, she's just a big personality.

[513] And she was a really passionate musical theater kid.

[514] And so in my little brain, it was, like, that, the, like, singing in the show tunes and that, like, that was theater.

[515] And I was like, whoa, that's a lot.

[516] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[517] Like, I'm obsessed with you.

[518] You're not Shirley Temple.

[519] But, like, I don't think that's for me. I'm, like, a nerdy science kid.

[520] And then the play requirement came.

[521] and she and I got to do a play together and it was like the most fun because you're hanging out with your best friend after school doing rehearsal.

[522] But the thing that hit me was that it was the living version of every one of my favorite books from an English class.

[523] That storytelling could be alive.

[524] And in real time, I was seeing the emotional response that it could create in a person, the catharsis, the humor.

[525] And I was like, oh, this is really, Really cool.

[526] What you just described your interest in it is so deep and beautiful and something I definitely see like a 30 -year -old professor appreciating about the power of the medium.

[527] But I am also going, no, you were a 16 -year -old girl at some point.

[528] You didn't want to be Melissa Milano or anything?

[529] I was like a very nerdy child.

[530] Okay.

[531] I don't know if it like, like really.

[532] I wanted to be a pediatric heart surgeon.

[533] It didn't say like I want to be a doctor.

[534] Right.

[535] I was always really into meaning as a kid.

[536] My parents didn't really understand it.

[537] You know, I'll never forget when, like, I got the National Geographic Six cassette box set about the world, and I watched the tape on the Amazon rainforest.

[538] Literally so many times I burned the tape through on the VHS player.

[539] Yeah.

[540] And I would sob when I would hear or, like, read a paper and see that the rainforest was being cut down.

[541] And my parents were like, what is the matter with you?

[542] Sure.

[543] Like, you're seven.

[544] Yeah, this is just how Kristen is.

[545] It was.

[546] I was a weird kid.

[547] But did you like TV shows?

[548] Did you like movies?

[549] Did you have...

[550] A little bit.

[551] Did you like bands?

[552] Did you like Backstreet Boys?

[553] I used to wake up.

[554] No, I was into like Paula Abdul and Nirvana and Prince.

[555] I grew up listening to Motown with my mom and my dad was like an Eagles fan.

[556] Yeah, I don't know.

[557] There was something about the power of it, but I thought it was a hobby.

[558] So I started doing theater through high school.

[559] And then my senior.

[560] year in high school.

[561] I told my parents I didn't want to go to medical school.

[562] I wanted to go to a theater conservatory.

[563] I'm like, they were just like, fuck.

[564] You know, and I found out my mom, it's kind of weird since your dad's a photographer.

[565] Right, but my mom looked at my dad and was like, this is your fault.

[566] You made your fucking hobby into your career and now she thinks she can do it too.

[567] Yeah, yeah.

[568] You know, they were totally petrified and my dad was like, Maureen, give her a year.

[569] Like, she's going to go, she's going to be so bored, give her a year.

[570] And so a year into being in the theater school, when I was like, this is really not for me, whatever this is, I'm not.

[571] into it.

[572] I did drop out of the BFA program.

[573] I transferred into the journalism school and my parents were like, here we go.

[574] And I was like, no, I just think that knowing what's actually going on in the world will make me a much better and more communicative storyteller.

[575] And they were like, fuck.

[576] So, yeah, I doubled down on it.

[577] But it was interesting that studying journalism and political science and everything in the communication school, it did.

[578] I really felt like it made me better at storytelling and relating to people.

[579] Well, how did you end up on a TV show?

[580] Because you got on one tree hill young, right?

[581] You were 20, 21?

[582] How old were you?

[583] I had been 21 for two whole weeks.

[584] Oh, really?

[585] And had you been in stuff before that show?

[586] Yeah, I worked on, I did an arc on the first season of NipTuck, which was super cool.

[587] Oh, wow.

[588] Wait, who were you?

[589] I loved NipTock.

[590] So Kate Mara and I had this whole thing together.

[591] Jolie Richardson, oh my God, I'm blanking on the name of the actor who played her husband.

[592] This is so embarrassing.

[593] They were a couple on the show, and they had a son, and the son was, like, super in love with this red -headed girl who was Kate Mara, but Kate Mara was in love with her best friend, who was me. Oh, yes, very Ryan Murphy.

[594] Yeah, we had this, like, whole thing, and we were, like, three high school kids who thought it, like, might be fun to, like, try to hook up, and then I realized she has a, in love with me, and he's freaking out.

[595] And we have, like, a sit -down, basically, with all three of our sets of parents.

[596] Oh, boy.

[597] To talk about the fact that we got caught, like.

[598] Was your first on -screen kiss with a woman?

[599] No, but that was my first on -screen kiss with a woman And so it's like a very fun point of like whenever I'm celebrating pride I'm just like been super proud to be an ally for as long as I've been on TV But yeah, Kate and I became friends and I've stayed friends And she's the coolest chick on the planet But I'd done this HBO movie with Rale Yoda before that That was really fun and I did like a couple of really bad independent movies Which we've done But yeah, we I booked the job in North Carolina to go do One Tree Hill and I almost didn't take it because I was like but I'm gonna miss my senior year of college like I only get one and my advisor Annie in the journalism school at USC Annenberg was like are you out of your mind you can come back to college anytime you want it doesn't matter with you like you go and you do this this is what you want to do and you know who would have known that it would be on for what felt like ever was it nine years Nine years.

[600] And were you on all nine years?

[601] I was.

[602] And were you excited to move to North Carolina or nervous or both?

[603] I mean, all of it.

[604] You know, the idea of uprooting felt really weird, but also really exciting.

[605] Yeah, because that's normally the age you'd be at a college generally in a foreign land, but you were in L .A. Were you in Charlotte?

[606] We were in Wilmington.

[607] Oh, okay.

[608] And yeah, it felt scary and fun.

[609] And we all also, to the point I was making, like, we didn't know the show was going to be on for almost a decade.

[610] I think we all would have done things very differently if we had.

[611] had but you know hindsight like what things would you have done like we would have all been smart and like invested in real estate oh sure sure yeah bought a place all sorts of things like would you just rent places or we just stay at hotels what would you do we mostly rented places and i have a little bit of like ADD and i felt very locked into this place that was really little so i would like move around all the time i'd like live by the beach live downtown go to the beach go to the middle of town go back downtown go back to the beach like i just was so stir crazy there i don't know know if you've been through this, I would imagine you have because I feel like as a tactic they like to use, but TV bosses love to tell you that, like, you're on the bubble, your shows just one step away from getting canceled.

[612] They want you to feel like you're expendable all the time.

[613] Oh, all six years of parenthood, they said we weren't coming back, all six years.

[614] Exactly.

[615] So like, regardless of the fact that you're on one of like the biggest hit shows, they tell you that you should be grateful to have a job, never ask for a raise, and you're probably going to get fired tomorrow.

[616] So you're living in this constant state of panic.

[617] So, you know, we always thought, like, well, this is it.

[618] And then we'd get picked up again.

[619] Yeah.

[620] You know, and you just never.

[621] Because it was a hit, right?

[622] Yes, but they loved to tell us it wasn't.

[623] And it was huge.

[624] Those on the CW?

[625] Yeah.

[626] And still, by the way.

[627] Right.

[628] Still has this.

[629] I joke with people.

[630] I'm like, I am Matthew McConaughey and dazed and confused because I keep getting older, but the girls stay the same age.

[631] Uh -huh.

[632] Like high school girls, college girls.

[633] They still love the show.

[634] Waves of it.

[635] And it's so crazy.

[636] The best comparison to me, there's this great English musician, Craig David, and he was like, yeah, I'm finally, I'm at the point in my career now where fans that are our age tell me that their 16 -year -old kids are like, you know, like, hey, mom, dad, I found this great guy.

[637] His name's Craig David.

[638] And they're like, when I was your age, I was dancing in clubs to Craig David music, like, sit down.

[639] You know, but like some of the kids don't even realize that it's not new.

[640] Well, you're lucky, though.

[641] Can I just say that the opposite for me is the case where I run into full -fledged adults, like 30 -year -old men who are like, dude without a paddle was my favorite movie in sixth grade.

[642] And I'm like, oh, my God, that was your favorite movie in sixth grade.

[643] I'm so much older than I thought.

[644] Oh, that's so cute.

[645] Yeah, I promise you the opposite isn't necessarily more comforting to see like a dude with grandkids tell you he loved you when he was a kid.

[646] I actually really am obsessed with when grandparents want to talk to me about, like, high school, age character storylines.

[647] I had like some 70 -year -old to be like, you know, I started watching with my granddaughter, and I just thought it was so great that you decided to get into, they're so cute, and I'm like, you're my favorite fan I've ever had.

[648] Now, it was all young people, right?

[649] And how many cast members were there of you guys?

[650] Oh, my God.

[651] There were a lot of us.

[652] I mean, there was sort of like a core five, you will.

[653] And then a whole, because we were in high school.

[654] So there was a whole periphery of great characters, and some came and went over the years, and some stayed the long haul.

[655] And you guys are all 20, 21, somewhere in there, right?

[656] You're all young.

[657] And then you're all getting famous overnight, right?

[658] Yes, but it was different for us because we were away and we were in a very small town.

[659] I would think that would make it worse.

[660] No, because aren't you more exciting in a small town than you are in L .A.?

[661] Yes and no. I mean, yeah, for sort of like stranger danger, like people running up to you.

[662] and grabbing you on the street, which happens to me still, and I think I'm never going to get over.

[663] It's very scary.

[664] That's we're weirder in a small town, but we didn't have the experience that, like, the kids from the OC or the kids from gossip girl had, where we were being, like, chased around by paparazzi, getting invited to crazy events, going to crazy parties.

[665] We didn't do any of that.

[666] Or New York.

[667] We just, like, went to work at 4 a .m. and left at 8 p .m. and, like, you know.

[668] We went to, like, the cops.

[669] copper penny.

[670] It's like a great bar in downtown Wilmington and we'd like have beers and go home.

[671] Oh, this sounds very normal.

[672] I like this.

[673] Now, we're being so young, I got to imagine 21 year olds in general aren't going to be crazy benevolent with sharing.

[674] Isn't there, was there, was there a bit of like controversy over who, yeah, competition, who's, who's more famous, who, that kind of stuff was it like, did it get dicey?

[675] So it seems like a lot to give.

[676] Honestly, not in the way I think it could I think there was a little bit of that that more came from insensitivity on our like grown -up producers' parts.

[677] Like there's certain things that should probably be reserved for private one -on -one conversations with actors and like shouldn't be announced in front of everyone because it doesn't feel good to hear that like someone's testing through the roof.

[678] You know, like that's not a, it doesn't feel great to be like, cool, now I'm getting, you know, like, looked at or whatever.

[679] They didn't do a great job with some of that, but for the most part, that wasn't really an issue with us.

[680] What sort of came to light later was like, and I don't know if you saw, you know, the whole thing that happened last fall or not, but all of us girls were the first cast to, like, write a cast letter about this sort of predatory environment on a set.

[681] Ah.

[682] And so what was interesting for us was that we found out later, in addition to just, like, being a total piece.

[683] of shit.

[684] There was this thing going around where you know everyone loved to talk about the Friends cast about their renegotiation.

[685] Oh, right.

[686] And how they all did it as a team.

[687] This hit show and they were all the best of friends and they renegotiated together and whatever.

[688] So forget the fact that when Friends was on there were like five TV channels and they got 23 million viewers a week.

[689] Like none of us could pay for that now.

[690] You could like be doing like crazy sacrifices to the devil if you believe in that shit and you'd still never have 23 million right but like the the impossibility of it just makes me laugh anyway but there was this sort of thing that I heard from a lot of people back then that was like oh yeah all the bosses were like you got to get in the middle like don't let your cast get too tight like and then they'll fuck you over right it was like a whole thing sure so we found out later that our boss really liked to talk a lot of shit that wasn't true to each of us about the other And what we realize now, sort of as a cast, being closer than ever, is there were times when, like, things were perfectly copacetic and whatever on set.

[691] But we all really sort of had our own groups of friends.

[692] We didn't spend as much social time together after a while as we did in the beginning.

[693] And luckily, we sort of got to the bottom of that.

[694] And we were like, oh, watch us now.

[695] Like, we're going to hang out all the time.

[696] So we were able to undo that.

[697] But even when we weren't, like, you know, party of five.

[698] right there was there wasn't like animosity there wasn't oh that's good there was just more of a like you do your thing i'll do my thing you know you found love with one of your co -stars you got married to one of them do are we really going to discuss this one i had i just learned this yesterday the reason that i don't talk about it a is because everyone's been 21 and stupid but if you're in our job for some reason people want to talk to you about like when you're fully fledged adults who've done really amazing shit with your lives they want to talk to you about the dumb thing you did in college, basically, which doesn't make sense to me. Because, like, in any other realm, if a CEO is, like, having a meeting, no one's going to ask about, like, the time they went to a kegger in college.

[699] Well, can I really quickly be super clear with you why I asked?

[700] Yeah, no, because you just learned a thing.

[701] Well, more than that, I can't learn anything from your victory.

[702] If you win an Emmy, and I'm in America, I can't relate to that.

[703] I'm not going to win an Emmy.

[704] I can relate to making a mistake and getting married and getting out of that and then be shame -ridden by that.

[705] I'm wondering like, fuck, I'm still in that spot.

[706] How do you grow out of that?

[707] What are the tools you use?

[708] Like, your victories don't teach me anything.

[709] Absolutely.

[710] But what's complex about this issue for me is that the person who I was 21 and stupid with is also an actor.

[711] And I got asked about this on a radio show back in the summer.

[712] And I talked about my experience.

[713] I said, like, you know, when you're a kid and you realize you're making a mistake and you feel pressured and all this stuff.

[714] And I talked about this.

[715] Only from my perspective.

[716] I don't speak my ex's name.

[717] I don't like, I'm not talking about anybody else's experience but my own.

[718] Yes.

[719] And what it was blown up into and what it was made into.

[720] Oh, sure.

[721] I'm very trepidious.

[722] Oh, for sure.

[723] About speaking about it because, and again, the irony is that, you know, it was made into this story that everybody serviced for his opinion, but and not for mine.

[724] All I'm doing is talking about my experience.

[725] And can I just tell you, I have zero interest in him.

[726] I don't even know his name.

[727] No, totally.

[728] I have zero interest in him.

[729] I have zero interest in the gossip that happened.

[730] I don't know what happened.

[731] And by the way, all I'm ever interested in is what your side of the street was and how you cleaned up and changed your side of the street.

[732] Because I don't even know who the guy is.

[733] I don't know if he murdered someone.

[734] Even if he murdered someone, there's nothing for you to fix about that.

[735] You can't change another person, but you need to do some things to ensure that you're never going to end up marrying a murderer.

[736] And that's what's of interest to me. So I had a girlfriend of nine years who I still love.

[737] She's the most wonderful person in the world.

[738] And the first year and a half we were broken up, I could have listed to you everything she did wrong in that relationship and why she caused the breakup.

[739] But then when all that dissipated and I was no longer hurt and angry, I started going, oh, I really fucked up here.

[740] I fucked up there.

[741] That's the only thing that's relevant because I'm not in charge of changing her for the rest of her life.

[742] So she has great relationships going forward.

[743] I'm in charge of changing Dax.

[744] Yes.

[745] And in making sure that I'm very honest and objective about what I, what role I played in it.

[746] Yeah.

[747] So I'm only interested in your role.

[748] You already kind of hit on it a little bit, which is you probably didn't have a bunch of relationships in high school that you would have maybe normally had.

[749] No, not at all.

[750] So you didn't learn to look for red flags, it sounds like.

[751] Yeah.

[752] And there was some level.

[753] Maybe also, if you're really critical, it's like maybe you believed in some romantic notion that you bought into.

[754] Yeah.

[755] I think I was a reeling.

[756] naive kid.

[757] And I think, and maybe it is that story of change.

[758] Maybe it's like some weird morphing of that like American dream idea that you can like come somewhere and you can start over and you can make something of yourself.

[759] And there's, there's romance in that.

[760] Sure.

[761] And I think there's romance in that in a relationship.

[762] So often what's motivating you to like somebody is your own insecurity.

[763] So this person is somehow alleviating an insecurity of yours.

[764] Now whether it is, again, I don't even know this person.

[765] Let's say this dude had a leather jacket and wrote a Harley and it was a bad boy and you have an insecurity, but I'm a fucking nerd.

[766] People don't really like me. Now here's this guy who's kind of validating me who is all those other things.

[767] And that's what I'm saying that's your side of the street.

[768] Sure.

[769] And I'm sure a lot of those kinds of feelings were at play.

[770] Like, yeah, being like a super nerdy kid and suddenly like you're on TV and all this stuff is happening and like, you know, one of the cool people you work with thinks you're awesome.

[771] Like, there's really base brain stuff there.

[772] Of course.

[773] I think that for me, it took me a long time to do the kind of inventory you're talking about in the after effect.

[774] Yeah.

[775] And I continued to be in a place of work with my ex.

[776] Well, it's a great distraction, too.

[777] There was no space to self -reflect.

[778] There was like, this is my integrity.

[779] This is my job.

[780] I will not falter for one second or one minute ever on this set.

[781] I will be the most fucking professional person anyone has ever seen.

[782] This all happened within the filming of the nine years.

[783] Were the producers shitting a brick?

[784] Like what's going to happen to this show now?

[785] We have a divorce couple.

[786] No, they were actually really deeply inappropriate to both of us.

[787] Oh, they were.

[788] Like threatening?

[789] They ran like, no, they ran like TV ads about it.

[790] Oh, my God.

[791] It was really ugly.

[792] Oh, my God.

[793] They made practice of taking advantage of people's personal lives.

[794] And not just for me. for my ex, for other actors on the show who would share, like, as you do when you get close to people, deeply personal things that were happening in their lives, and they would wind up in storylines.

[795] They would, like, it wasn't okay.

[796] Right.

[797] It just, like, wasn't okay.

[798] Yeah, very opportunistic.

[799] It was opportunistic and ugly, and, like, when you run a show, you're like a parent.

[800] You're supposed to protect your flock, and it was the opposite of that.

[801] And I imagine that was hard for him as well.

[802] You know, it was a very ugly situation on their part.

[803] I think they kind of lived for the drama.

[804] Right.

[805] Because they felt like it was good for the ratings.

[806] Yeah.

[807] And I think for me...

[808] Was it good for the ratings?

[809] I don't know.

[810] I wasn't paying attention to it.

[811] You know, there was like no social media.

[812] We didn't have smartphones.

[813] Isn't that?

[814] So you weren't like Googling the ratings for your show on your phone.

[815] Also, that is a little bit of a blessing, right?

[816] Because going through, I've had a lot of people on here who've had like public breakups.

[817] Yeah.

[818] And yeah, the fact that people have a, you know, they have a direct line to you now.

[819] Yeah, it's ugly.

[820] It really compounds all.

[821] those things like my mom was on here in my first step dad was physically abusive and i said to her it's so boggling to most people i would imagine you're a super strong woman how on earth would you've stayed with this person and she goes you know my shame of failing a second time was so strong that literally that's what it was like if i had isolated the shame of that failure yeah was so huge and it's so funny because we all feel that sense of like that that's such a mortal failing yet it's ubiquitous and almost the norm is for that to happen to all of us yet we we individually assume that we're somehow our transgressions worse than any other or something it's well and what I think about having done that inventory similarly I would imagine to your mom is I go oh isn't it interesting though that the shame in maybe failing again might be the thing that keeps making you fulfill the pattern of putting up with something you don't deserve.

[822] Well, because you want to get it right, right?

[823] Like, you want to try it again.

[824] Yeah, but like you're not doing it right because you're playing out an old pattern.

[825] And the work that it really takes to undo some of that stuff and to look at how you do things and why you do things.

[826] And, you know, after a first hurt or whatever, how that pain, that fear, that humiliation, whatever it was you were going through all of them morph into these motivators, these like pain points that are calling for attention, but you don't realize what attention they're calling for.

[827] So you continue to feed them with versions of the thing that hurt you.

[828] Sure.

[829] That has been a really interesting sort of exploration for me. Yeah.

[830] Well, also I think too, we've talked about that a bunch here, which is like familiarity is a dicey thing.

[831] And the hardest thing to do, and it's like the, the, the thing thing in AA that is so hard for people to embrace, which is this notion of contrary action, right?

[832] Which is like almost as an experiment, do opposite of everything that comes natural to you or feels right to you.

[833] Because at a certain point in your life, if you look at your life and you don't like the pattern it's in, you have to admit to yourself that your instincts aren't great and that the choices you want to make seem to be repeating themselves.

[834] So you actually have to make choices to do things that don't feel natural to you that aren't appealing and that's so bizarre but then if you have the willingness to do that and then you end up looking at the results if you can get through it you'll find like oh my goodness this thing's probably better for me stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare so I just did this thing that I think you would love.

[835] I've been really fortunate.

[836] I have this buddy named Miles who lives in Nashville and we've known each other for almost 10 years.

[837] And for 10 years, I've been learning about the work that he does at this place called OnSight.

[838] It's a retreat center.

[839] They do work with autistic kids.

[840] They do work with trauma recovery and people dealing with addiction.

[841] And in my head, I guess I always thought like, oh, when you go through something like totally crazy, you go there.

[842] And in the years of our friendship, I've learned about some of their programming and I've been so fascinated by it.

[843] And he finally was like, well, why don't you just come check it out?

[844] And I was like, yeah, but I mean, I don't, I don't have, like, addiction.

[845] I don't know, I'm okay.

[846] Like, I've had some trauma, but like, I don't know what my trauma really is in comparison.

[847] Sure.

[848] Because I play the comparison game where I don't have a right to trauma because other people have been traumatized worse.

[849] Right.

[850] Kind of thing.

[851] And he was like, I think he was kind of like, that's cute.

[852] Mm -hmm.

[853] And so we wound up as just sort of like a community uplift experience.

[854] We curated a group of 22 of our buds.

[855] Mm -hmm.

[856] And we went out to on -site and did programming.

[857] And for a little data nerd like me, the lectures in the morning and at night with learning about aces, learning about trauma wiring, learning about when you have a missed pattern in the development, in your childhood development, in your family, your brain misses wiring in certain ways.

[858] And they literally don't exist until you rewire it.

[859] Yeah, you don't form those synapses.

[860] You know, yes.

[861] So all of these really interesting things where you go, oh.

[862] Oh.

[863] So the things I witnessed, the things that hurt me, turn into this, I missed this.

[864] No wonder I keep repeating this thing.

[865] And, you know, there's that adage that life will make you repeat a lesson until you learn it.

[866] And you get that, like, theoretically, but you don't get in.

[867] And so I went to onsite and I unpacked so much of this stuff.

[868] And I realized that as I was thinking, I was like, be in a tough.

[869] guy doing the thing showing up at work i programmed myself to tolerate the intolerable and part of the big break for me in saying no i don't necessarily know what it is but i know that what's happening is not good for me and everything has to change that was a big cutoff point when i quit my job i was like i was like i got a it has to stop everything stops oh wow And I quit because what I've learned, I've been so programmed to be a good girl and to be a workhorse and to be a tugboat that I have always prioritized tugging the ship for the crew, for the show, for the group, ahead of my own health.

[870] My body would react to something that I was like, that's not a big deal.

[871] It's not great, but it's not a big deal.

[872] The reality was that my body was like falling apart because I was really, really unhappy.

[873] From the outside, here's what I know.

[874] I know that you're on that show.

[875] From the outside, I saw that you promoted the show a ton, like on your Instagram and stuff.

[876] It appeared to me that you loved being on that show.

[877] There were aspects of it that I loved.

[878] Were you in Chicago?

[879] Yeah.

[880] That's rough, right?

[881] That was really hard.

[882] Again, not because we don't love Chicago, but it's just not your home.

[883] It's not your home.

[884] And there's a thing that happens, and I think the reason that sets can be hard for people.

[885] And, like, you know, every actor we know is, like, dated somebody they've worked.

[886] worked with, like, hello, literally everybody.

[887] You're so insulated.

[888] The hours are so crazy.

[889] You have nobody else to hang out with.

[890] It's like summer camp that never ends.

[891] But instead of, like, gallivanting in the woods all day, you're, like, working 16 hours a day.

[892] And for us, our writers were here in L .A., and they were like, the snow looks so cool on camera.

[893] And we were like, it's literally 30 degrees below zero.

[894] Right.

[895] So it's 62 degrees below freezing.

[896] And you're going to say we have to keep working outside like people were sick all the time it was really just physically hard hard but the culture protected it and the culture said this is just what it is and get the job done and do the job and do the things and there were a lot of people there who I really loved but it was not okay but I internalized and sort of like inhabited that role of like pull the tugboat to the point that it was like, well, just because I'm unhappy or I'm being mistreated or I'm being abused at work, I'm not going to fuck up this job for all these people.

[897] And what about my camera guy whose two daughters I love and like this is how he pays their rent?

[898] You know, what about it becomes such a big thing because there is this.

[899] By the way, I know you deny it being.

[900] codependent earlier in this conversation, but that sounds very codependent.

[901] Totally.

[902] No, I'm not saying I'm not.

[903] I'm just saying like, but you know, there is a thing.

[904] And by the way, when your bosses tell you that if you raise a ruckus, you'll cost everyone their job.

[905] Sure, sure.

[906] Yeah.

[907] It was also convoluted with the fact that there were great aspects of it.

[908] And I did get to stunt drive and go on ride -alongs and train and do all these things that were really fulfilling.

[909] So this thing that's sort of great for you is also really bad for you.

[910] and how do you know what to do?

[911] So my body, while I can make those mental arguments all day, my body was like...

[912] We'll take you out of this.

[913] We'll make this decision for you.

[914] Yeah.

[915] How do you get out of that?

[916] Because you clearly have a seven -year contract.

[917] That's whatever all of us have to sign to start.

[918] And you were five years in?

[919] I was four years in.

[920] Four years in.

[921] So how do you get out of it?

[922] You call your agent and you got to get me out of this?

[923] No. Actually, when I finally started talking to my agents and my attorneys about what was going on there, They were like, how could you not have come to us sooner?

[924] What happened was I sat my two bosses down.

[925] And I said it was after the table read for the first episode of season four.

[926] And they already knew what was going on.

[927] But I was like, this is how not okay it is.

[928] And if things haven't drastically changed between last year and this year, I'm warning you now so you don't have the argument of saying she was like, a hysterical female or was emotional or cried.

[929] I'm going to tell you now, I'm going to give you until the end of the season.

[930] and if it isn't different, I'm leaving.

[931] So it's not even like two weeks notice.

[932] Right.

[933] You have 23 episodes of notice.

[934] To figure it out.

[935] To figure it out.

[936] When I started rattling off the list of what had been happening on set and was literally told to stop by my boss, because this is all shit I got to call HR about and I really don't want to deal with this anymore.

[937] And I was like, okay, so I'm making the right decision.

[938] I have to go.

[939] Right.

[940] Said, there's no way they're going to let you go.

[941] Like, you can kick and scream.

[942] They're not going to let you go.

[943] Yeah.

[944] And I just said, okay, so you can put me in the, the position of going quietly of my own accord, or you can put me in the position of suing the network to get me out of my deal, and I'll write an op -ed for the New York Times and tell them why.

[945] I was like, balls of fucking steel at this point.

[946] So I take a lot, and then when I'm done, I'm done like it's nuclear.

[947] Right.

[948] We finally found something you and I share.

[949] Hey, brother.

[950] Generally, the first time you hear, I have a problem, I'm holding two Maltov cocktails.

[951] Exactly.

[952] Exactly.

[953] And I will say, like, moments when I'm so grateful that there are amazing women and amazing men in the room, Jen Selke was still the head of the network.

[954] And when this finally got up the flagpole to her, and I found out for four years it had been hidden from her, which was also unacceptable, she called me and was just like, talk to me, tell me, I don't need to talk to any, an attorney, what's going on?

[955] Because then it was like, it's done.

[956] You can have, like, of course, we're so sad.

[957] But of course, you want to go, go.

[958] We would never try to make you stay.

[959] Yeah.

[960] And that I really appreciated.

[961] Were you fearful during this whole thing like, well, I'm pretty much sealing my fate.

[962] I'll never get hired on a TV show again because I've left.

[963] I think I'm too bullishly optimistic, even in my like raging against the dying of the light every day, to think that that could be it.

[964] Because to me, I work really hard.

[965] I know I have a good reputation.

[966] I know that I can be a little too political for people.

[967] And to anyone that offends, I apologize.

[968] but also I don't know how else to be.

[969] Sure.

[970] I am not a difficult person to work with.

[971] I know that nearing the end of my tenure there, I was probably difficult to be around because I was in so much pain.

[972] And I felt so ignored.

[973] I said to one of my coworkers who, you know, checked in with me and was like, how are you feeling?

[974] And I said, you know, I finally came to terms with the fact that I feel like I was standing butt naked, bruised and bleeding, in the middle of Times Square, screaming at the top of my lungs and not a single person stopped to ask if they could help me. Mm -hmm.

[975] That was hard.

[976] Mm -hmm.

[977] But I wasn't worried that I'd never get another job again by any means.

[978] Oh, that's good.

[979] Because to me, staying was like certain death.

[980] Mm -hmm.

[981] Like, I wasn't going to make it out of there.

[982] Right.

[983] So then the decision becomes much easier.

[984] Yeah.

[985] Yeah.

[986] So now to be like my jerky AA self, I will just say, there's a really clear parallel to someone who's been with an abusive boyfriend twice.

[987] So you've had nine years of work experience, no, 13 years of work experience that are a bit of a pattern.

[988] Sure.

[989] So how are you going forward can not end up in a third situation?

[990] What I do want to clarify is that our experience on One Tree Hill was unpleasant, but our boss, who was a bad dude, lived in L .A. Uh -huh.

[991] So 80 % of the time, we were on set loving our experience and each other.

[992] And then he would come to town and it would be like, watch out for fucking Hansi McCansy over there.

[993] And like, and then we'd find out about like text messages he was sending girls and like, you know, there was a lot that was inappropriate, but it wasn't all the time.

[994] Sure.

[995] And the weird thing is and the sad thing is we still had like nice memories with the guy.

[996] Yeah, sure.

[997] Some days where you'd be like, there's the guy I know.

[998] knew and then he'd be gross again and you'd be like god damn it you know it wasn't it wasn't the same that's the part no one really wants to talk about or acknowledge is that all of us are so multifaceted yes we would love it it would be so easy and convenient if we could put human beings into a box of good and evil but no everyone's got a little little dose of evil they got you know hopefully a lot more dose of good and it's just all very that's what makes it so nuanced challenging and yeah if you're a young actress, just a quick heads -up.

[999] The creator of a show probably doesn't need your phone number.

[1000] Yeah, email.

[1001] He doesn't need to text message you.

[1002] He can go through someone else just as a quick.

[1003] That's a good.

[1004] As a rule of comedy.

[1005] Yeah, emails are fine.

[1006] Especially if you're day playing on a show, you probably don't need telephone communication with a creator.

[1007] Exactly.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] Yikes.

[1010] That's an excellent piece of guys.

[1011] Thank you.

[1012] Just going forward.

[1013] That's kind of allies, gentlemen.

[1014] But, you know, so I do want to clarify that they were very different experience.

[1015] One was like a guy who we were like, oh, God, he's back.

[1016] And one was a consistent onslaught barrage of abusive behavior.

[1017] And, you know, you start to lose your way when someone assaults you in a room full of people.

[1018] And everyone literally looks away, looks at the floor, looks at the ceiling.

[1019] And you're the one woman in the room.

[1020] And every man who's twice your size doesn't do something, you go, oh, that wasn't worth defending.

[1021] I'm not worth defending.

[1022] Mm -hmm.

[1023] Well, what's also challenging is there's all kinds of systems that are successful.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] And it's really, I feel like it gets doubly hard to challenge something that produces the desired result.

[1026] Yeah.

[1027] It's kind of like being on a football team that never loses, but you cheat.

[1028] Yeah.

[1029] And you go, well, I guess that's what we do.

[1030] Like, I guess that's how you get this result.

[1031] And to your point about someone who you say, I like 96 % of them and 4 % of them is a doozy, this is like, well, I like, we've not.

[1032] 96 % of this project is going great.

[1033] And we understand that 4 % is really a dumpster fire.

[1034] Yeah.

[1035] But 96 % is awesome.

[1036] Yeah.

[1037] So we'll let it go.

[1038] Sure.

[1039] But when you're the person on the receiving end of 100 % of that 4 % fire, it's untenable.

[1040] Sure.

[1041] I love that word, by the way.

[1042] I love it too.

[1043] Untenable.

[1044] Isn't it good?

[1045] That and unflappable.

[1046] They're in all my historical fiction.

[1047] They use that word a lot.

[1048] Okay.

[1049] untenable, yeah.

[1050] Untenable is a good one.

[1051] It's great.

[1052] And yeah, I realized.

[1053] that I didn't have to put this sort of Sisyphian task of pushing this endless boulder up.

[1054] You just hit Monica's favorite word.

[1055] You just went back to back.

[1056] Oh my God, did I just zing you both?

[1057] Good couple sentences.

[1058] Wait a second.

[1059] I made a joke on your Instagram recently.

[1060] You called out like some stupid tabloid.

[1061] You know they have those like Monday meetings at tabloids.

[1062] And they're like, let's come up for the story.

[1063] And you called out.

[1064] That we're having like a super sexy.

[1065] Yeah, yeah.

[1066] You and K. Bell are like auditioning people for threesome or something.

[1067] And I was like, oh, so our podcast.

[1068] interviews a podcast.

[1069] It's cool.

[1070] It's fine.

[1071] I'll still come.

[1072] I just like I wanted to make a joke because I thought it was so funny.

[1073] So I feel like the three of us just had like an intellectual threesome.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] You can tell people that you sort of did it.

[1076] Yeah.

[1077] There you go.

[1078] I feel really like, well, no. And you know my - he was going to say engorge.

[1079] And I was like, please don't do it.

[1080] You know my pattern and you know what I'm attracted to, which is actually pleasing someone.

[1081] So as much as you just gave me my favorite word and you gave Monica's, I'm more upset.

[1082] that I haven't given you your favorite word.

[1083] That's, to me, that's where the real satisfaction and the ego inflating would come from as if I had hit a word for you that you loved.

[1084] All right.

[1085] I'll let you know.

[1086] And so for the last year and change since I left, my weekly therapy is non -negotiable.

[1087] Mm -hmm.

[1088] Good.

[1089] And to really start unpacking trauma and to go through the experiential therapy that actually starts rewiring your brain, I don't turn to the things that are the sort of hole fillers for me that I didn't even realize really were because I could say like I'm not traditionally addicted to anything.

[1090] So I wasn't paying attention to things that were kind of addictive behaviors.

[1091] And it all has sort of lost its mth for me because I'm like, oh, I'm not trying to fill a bottomless hole.

[1092] I mother that version of myself now.

[1093] And I, because every version of me that's in me is actually solely my responsibility.

[1094] Yes.

[1095] And the 8 year old and the 12 year old and the 21 year old were always looking for someone to not wound me the way the person I loved the most in the world wounded me at that stage.

[1096] And I don't need anybody to not wound me anymore.

[1097] I don't wound myself.

[1098] Right.

[1099] Most important thing to recognize is like all those things are explanations to why you're here.

[1100] Yeah.

[1101] But there's only one human being that gets you to where you want to be.

[1102] It's not everyone else.

[1103] It's just you.

[1104] You are completely responsible to feel the way you want to feel.

[1105] It's your job.

[1106] It's no one else's.

[1107] No one's going to make you feel a certain way.

[1108] No one's going to heal you.

[1109] No one's going to do anything.

[1110] You've got to do all that.

[1111] All of it.

[1112] And I think it's really, that's something a lot of us understand intellectually.

[1113] But this society does not teach us those tools.

[1114] No. We clearly teach our kids to read in school.

[1115] The fact that there's not a course on how to communicate in a relationship and state your needs.

[1116] Or by the way, just empathy, education curriculum, we're really missing some big dots here.

[1117] And so I had to go back and relearn some of that, which made cerebral sense to me, but didn't have emotional practice.

[1118] And so much of our patterning comes from our wiring.

[1119] And so we do the same thing every day and we don't even realize it.

[1120] So you have to like, it's like, it's like, fixing a car engine.

[1121] Like you got to pop the hood.

[1122] You got to take the engine out, take all the wires apart, put new lines in.

[1123] And then you do it.

[1124] And you're like, oh, my car runs like game muster.

[1125] Son of a bitch is putting out 600 horse at the wheel.

[1126] Look what happened.

[1127] Do you know what you're going to do next?

[1128] Are you going to try to act?

[1129] What are you doing?

[1130] So what was really a highlight for me, and I think made the leaving less scary.

[1131] Because to your point, I probably would have a couple months after I quit my job, been like, oh, fuck, what did I do?

[1132] But I got a call from one of my idols in the TV industry, like an executive at a studio who is just like such a badass Dana Walden, who runs 20th century.

[1133] And was like, I hear through the Gravevine, you're quitting your job, you want to produce and act.

[1134] We want your voice here.

[1135] Oh my God.

[1136] And I was like, what?

[1137] Yeah.

[1138] Okay.

[1139] So I went into a production sort of umbrella over there.

[1140] And I got connected with this incredible writer named David White.

[1141] And he had this script about a woman who works at the NSA.

[1142] And I was like, oh, hello there.

[1143] So the show is this beautiful amalgamation of all the things I care about in the world, of technology, innovation, patriotism.

[1144] It really looks at things from all sides.

[1145] And we're going to shoot the pilot in like five weeks.

[1146] Oh, cool.

[1147] I'm so excited.

[1148] It's been so great, A, to have so many more divisions of a project to put my brain power into.

[1149] Sure, yeah.

[1150] Because.

[1151] Well, that sense of ownership is really rewarding.

[1152] The sense of ownership.

[1153] And also, I'm a person who has ideas about everything.

[1154] I'm a nerd.

[1155] And feel ownership and be a woman at that table and know that I get to set a tone on my set and make sure that any actor or crew member who comes through there, has the most rewarding and fulfilling and fun experience.

[1156] What was the name of it?

[1157] It's called surveillance.

[1158] Today it's called surveillance.

[1159] Yes.

[1160] That's true.

[1161] I've shot so many things.

[1162] I'd say almost half the things I've shot ended up having a different title when they came out.

[1163] Yeah, I shot this really terrible independent movie when I was in college.

[1164] And the title was actually something like sweet and collegiate and what they changed it to.

[1165] And I know I will not tell you because I don't want you to.

[1166] Was it called muff diver?

[1167] No, it was not more close.

[1168] They changed it to a title that literally made it sound like a low -key porn.

[1169] I mean, you know, I'm going to have to find it.

[1170] I'm going to have to.

[1171] I'll talk to you about it when people aren't listening, but like, it's not one of my things people need to go back and watch.

[1172] You have 187 episodes of One Tree Hill you can watch.

[1173] That's true.

[1174] Just please watch anything but the bad indie movie.

[1175] But Muff Diver.

[1176] I can't wait to find out the name of, yeah, Muff Diver.

[1177] Well, Sophie, you're a good, you're a wonderful human being like my wife.

[1178] If you're a better person than me, thank God, there's people like you on the planet.

[1179] And I hope the pilot turns out great.

[1180] And I hope you get to, yeah, be the person setting the tone.

[1181] It's all very fun.

[1182] And then when it's a huge success, you'll come back and we'll promote that.

[1183] Okay.

[1184] All right.

[1185] Let's do this.

[1186] Bye, Sophia.

[1187] Hello?

[1188] Cecilia.

[1189] Oh, hi.

[1190] Oh, hi.

[1191] Oh, hi.

[1192] Oh, hi.

[1193] Sorry, I have this five -year -old son.

[1194] oh sure we suffer from the we suffer from the same condition oh my gosh right oh my gosh i'm so excited to talk to you guys we're excited to talk to you um is your son in uh did he start kindergarten this year no he just missed the cutoff by like a couple of weeks but um if he had you know if he hadn't we probably would just to hold him back anyway because like i think that's what people are doing now anyway yeah there seems to be like an arms race with this uh my prediction is that in 20 years people start kindergarten when they're like 13 oh my god i know but anyway no but we're actually in the process of setting them up for next year so like it's like competitive or something yeah yeah yeah well you did you listen to dr wendy mogul on the show yes i did oh my gosh and i have a background in psychology and um like uh let's see art therapy and i with children so that you know all that stuff is just so fascinating to me I can't decide what I like more of the experts on experts or you know the celebrities you don't have to pick yeah we're gonna we'll give you both of them I was at your Brooklyn show oh oh oh I liked that yeah but I didn't I didn't have a good enough seat so you couldn't see my sign oh my sign said I love it when Dax mispronounce his words well then you you must be happy often because I mispronounce like every fifth word yeah And then, Dax, I'm, my husband and I met you when you came to New York for Brothers Justice, however, was that, like, eight years ago.

[1195] Oh, my God, probably even more.

[1196] The screening we had?

[1197] Yes.

[1198] And, like, we got to, like, talk to you and hug you.

[1199] And it was really cool.

[1200] Like, I think that's when my crush on you started, actually.

[1201] Oh, this is wonderful.

[1202] Wow.

[1203] We have history.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] But I was so, I was so upset.

[1206] After the Brooklyn show, I wanted to meet Monica because I was like.

[1207] oh my gosh, you know.

[1208] Oh, I would have loved that.

[1209] I know, but my husband was tired and it was late.

[1210] We had a long day.

[1211] So whatever.

[1212] Husbands.

[1213] You know, husbands.

[1214] Well, you can't live with them and you can't kill them.

[1215] That's what they say.

[1216] Right, right.

[1217] Well, listen, we really, really appreciate your generosity.

[1218] And of course, we would like to pay your generosity forward.

[1219] And is there a foundation or a charity that you believe in that we could forward your money to?

[1220] So have you heard of modest needs?

[1221] No, tell us about modest needs.

[1222] We can find it at modus needs .org.

[1223] It helps prevent people from falling into a cycle of poverty when they just need like a financial boost falling on hard times.

[1224] It could be a single mom needing a car repair.

[1225] It could be an unexpected injury or illness that's left someone unable to pay their rent.

[1226] Anyway, these people go to this website and the people have been vetted and the money that you donate goes directly to pay the electric company or the auto repair um you know yeah and i think what people might not understand about this issue right is that sometimes well they say i've read statistics like of what percentage of americans are basically one paycheck away from falling into poverty and how it can be a self -perpetuating so you know if you can't make that car repair now you lose your job and now are the burden on everyone gets infinitely higher.

[1227] It's a good investment, yeah?

[1228] Yes, yes.

[1229] And, you know, it's just really cool.

[1230] You can go in there and search, and you can see which ones are running out soon.

[1231] You're like, oh, my gosh, this personally is one week to raise this much money.

[1232] Yeah.

[1233] And, you know, you can swoop in and save the day for some people.

[1234] Well, that's fantastic.

[1235] We'll be happy to send your money there.

[1236] We thank you so much for donating to us.

[1237] And again, I would implore you to clone Monica.

[1238] Her DNA is on the mug.

[1239] everyone needs a Monica one of us you'll get one of us when you take it to the lab it'll be a surprise could even be could even be a mashup between us like a six foot three six foot three Monica well Cecilia thank you so much all right love you guys thank you guys thanks cecilia and now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my soulmate monica padman rolling on a Fact check and we're going to check facts rolling on a fact check too.

[1240] That was just Wobby Wob who said rolling on fact check.

[1241] And that came out.

[1242] Yeah.

[1243] So, Fia.

[1244] So, Fia.

[1245] All right.

[1246] So she was talking about her stunt coordinator that got her into doing stunts.

[1247] and his name is Michael Owen.

[1248] And she was like, I think he maybe did stunts on the Italian job.

[1249] He did stunts on the Italian job.

[1250] And you know what else he did stunts on?

[1251] Chips.

[1252] Correct.

[1253] He did.

[1254] He did.

[1255] I thought that was funny when I saw that.

[1256] That is funny.

[1257] What's his name?

[1258] Michael Owen.

[1259] Michael Owen.

[1260] Huh.

[1261] Huh.

[1262] I'm going to have to ask Castro who he was.

[1263] Yeah.

[1264] He did stunts on chips.

[1265] I mean, I knew my motorcycle.

[1266] team really well for obvious reasons.

[1267] Sure.

[1268] But I might, I don't know if I got everyone's name in these like broader, bigger scenes with people running and falling downstairs and stuff.

[1269] Yeah.

[1270] You know?

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] Well, he was in your movie.

[1273] That's great.

[1274] Mm -hmm.

[1275] And I was just noting, his name is Michael Owen, which is very hard because you want to say Michael Owens.

[1276] It's like O 'Reilly's and crystals.

[1277] And Kmart's?

[1278] It's very hard.

[1279] Yeah.

[1280] And Burger Kings.

[1281] It's very hard to not put an ass on Owen.

[1282] Should we invite people into this thing that's going on with you and I in Burger King?

[1283] Sure.

[1284] So it turns out we discovered about three months ago that Monica and I in our youth loved that Burger King chicken sandwich.

[1285] That's a rectangle.

[1286] Yeah, it's a rectangle.

[1287] And I always got mine with extra mayonnaise.

[1288] Did you get heavy mayonnaise on yours?

[1289] I got mayonnaise and ketchup.

[1290] Ooh.

[1291] Yeah.

[1292] It made such a taste.

[1293] I can taste it at my mouth right now.

[1294] Me too.

[1295] I always got extra mayonnaise and it was thick.

[1296] It was almost as thick as the chicken rectangle itself.

[1297] And their mayonnaise, when warm, is very special.

[1298] It's very oily.

[1299] It's really good.

[1300] So we figured this out a few months ago.

[1301] And then on my ride to the attic from Netflix, there is a Burger King.

[1302] And I almost pulled in like five times to get us.

[1303] those rectangles, but then we've since decided, is it better in our memory?

[1304] Is it going to let us down?

[1305] Yeah, I'm worried about that.

[1306] If we aged out of that tasty rectangle.

[1307] I think we might have.

[1308] So we can't really decide if we should do it or not do it.

[1309] That's the question.

[1310] And maybe we need to post a survey and just be guided by the better wisdom of the collective genius of armcherrys.

[1311] Yeah.

[1312] I want to add something else.

[1313] Okay.

[1314] I got my first personalized license plate.

[1315] Oh, yeah.

[1316] I've never gotten a personalized license plate.

[1317] Generally, I hate them.

[1318] But I wanted the, in California, you can order these black, they're retro plates and they're black with yellow writing.

[1319] And my Lincoln Continental, the theme is black and gold.

[1320] So I needed to get a black and yellow license plate to match.

[1321] Yeah.

[1322] And then I thought, well, shit, if I'm going to order that, maybe it's time to go vanity plate.

[1323] And then I threw up.

[1324] But then when I got over it, I thought only if I can think of the very perfect vanity plate.

[1325] And Monica, do you know what I'm getting?

[1326] I do.

[1327] Arm cherry.

[1328] I know.

[1329] My new vanity plate is going to say arm cherry on my Lincoln.

[1330] I'm so excited.

[1331] Yeah.

[1332] Should we say how you're spelling it?

[1333] How are you doing it?

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] A -R -M -C -H -R -Y.

[1336] In case you're on the street, you see it.

[1337] It's either Monica or I. If the Lincoln isn't an indicator or a - enough that it's you.

[1338] Yeah, yeah, with the enormous gold wheels on it.

[1339] It's so obnoxious in the best way.

[1340] It's a flashy car.

[1341] It is.

[1342] It's opulent and ostentatious.

[1343] And rare.

[1344] And rare and rarefied.

[1345] Can I add one more thing before we get into Sophia?

[1346] Sure.

[1347] You can add a million things.

[1348] Because I've been meaning to bring this up, but I didn't know when or how.

[1349] But then I kind of came up when I did Chris Hardwick's podcast this week.

[1350] And I was thinking, oh, I would like to share that on our podcast.

[1351] And what happened was I had a share.

[1352] at my A .A. meeting that I didn't think a ton about.

[1353] But then the following week, someone in their share brought up that it had really resonated with them.

[1354] And then a couple other people really agreed with that.

[1355] And then I started thinking, well, huh, if that kind of resonated with these gentlemen, maybe I should share it.

[1356] And it's just very simple and stupid.

[1357] It is occasionally I have a conversation with myself where I, it's always while beating myself up, which is my great hobby.

[1358] sure my main hobby is really being mean to myself kind of yelling at myself inside my mind about how I'm failing in all these ways and I'm a piece of shit and occasionally when I'm in one of these spirals I think to myself would you ever talk to a stranger the way you're talking to yourself would you ever if you knew a guy in a A and he came up to you and he said I did X, Y and Z some indiscretion would I say yeah that's because you're a fucking piece of shit.

[1359] in a terrible person.

[1360] I would never do that to somebody.

[1361] I would never treat a stranger the way I treat myself.

[1362] Right.

[1363] So I try to have this new program where it's like, minimally I should treat myself as nice as I would treat a stranger.

[1364] Yeah.

[1365] I deserve that.

[1366] Yeah.

[1367] That's a good motto.

[1368] It's helped a bit.

[1369] Good.

[1370] Yeah.

[1371] So I don't know.

[1372] Just a tip if you're hard on yourself to think about treating yourself the way you treat other people.

[1373] I like that.

[1374] This is kind of a reverse because normally you're supposed to say treat other.

[1375] as you'd want to be treated.

[1376] But I'm asking you to treat yourself the way you treat others.

[1377] I guess it depends on how you treat others.

[1378] That's true.

[1379] Yeah.

[1380] If you're raping and murdering them, still go ahead and rape and murder yourself.

[1381] Yeah, you should be.

[1382] Yeah, so I think it still holds.

[1383] Oh, okay, okay.

[1384] Yeah, it could self -regulate.

[1385] That's true.

[1386] Yeah, I think that's great.

[1387] My only thought on that is, I'd definitely, think no one should be beating themselves up.

[1388] I don't think that's helpful.

[1389] But as you said to me yesterday, that, I think you used the word miserable, but that sometimes it takes feeling those ways to change and to be critical of yourself in a way that's helpful, which you're not going to be critical of a stranger because you don't care.

[1390] There's no investment.

[1391] Well, no, because you could be truly invested in a friendship where you want to help someone work through the thing that they're dealing with and you want to provide a constructive suggestion that could be a pathway out of that behavior or a suggestion of how to prevent it from happening again but all those things would be done from a constructive pragmatic point of view it wouldn't be in a shaming self -hatred way or a hatred way you know it shouldn't be no the shame in the in the um yeah You're just this shaming that we give ourselves is maybe a little rough.

[1392] Yeah, I agree.

[1393] Yeah.

[1394] But the thing I was saying to you, and this is something that's, again, common, this isn't my thought, which is I think a lot of us in AA feel very fortunate that the thing we had was so, the stakes were so high that literally death was an option if we didn't change.

[1395] I think it's just so hard to change as a human being.

[1396] It's, I think it's the hardest thing you can do is like change at your core who you are.

[1397] And I'm sympathetic to people who the only results of their character defects or their bad habits is just generalized discomfort.

[1398] Because most people can tolerate generalized discomfort and they can maybe tolerate it their whole life.

[1399] Yeah.

[1400] But you really can't tolerate a condition that'll kill you and kills many of your peers without really fundamental change.

[1401] and it ends up being a weird thing I'm grateful for that I had such a life -threatening thing that could have changed me because I don't know what else would have.

[1402] Yeah, that's true.

[1403] Okay.

[1404] Oh, she was looking for a actor in her brain.

[1405] She was talking about nip tuck, and she said Jolie Richardson's husband on the show, and that is John Hensley.

[1406] Now, I guess I don't know for sure that it's John.

[1407] Hensley because I never watched NipTuck.

[1408] So I had to go on IMDB and look at the character name and match the last name.

[1409] Right.

[1410] So I assume that it's John Hensley because Julie Richardson played Julie McNamara and John Hensley played Matt McNamara.

[1411] Now they could be brother and sister.

[1412] I don't know.

[1413] I don't watch NipTuck.

[1414] I did and I believe that's their character names.

[1415] Okay, great.

[1416] I love NipTuck.

[1417] I never watched it.

[1418] I wonder if it would hold up, but it was one of the first cable shows that was naughty, naughty, naughty.

[1419] Yeah, Ryan Murphy.

[1420] Yep, Brian Murphy.

[1421] Ryan Murphy.

[1422] Man. He's a productive son of a gun.

[1423] He really is.

[1424] We should get him on here.

[1425] Okay.

[1426] I'm curious.

[1427] All right.

[1428] So she said two of our favorite words back to back.

[1429] She said untenable.

[1430] Uh -huh.

[1431] And then Sisyphinean.

[1432] Oh, Sisyphysian.

[1433] I say, I say Sisyfisian because I think it makes the most sense and also helps people know what it means.

[1434] Because his name was Sisyphus?

[1435] Mm -hmm.

[1436] Uh -huh.

[1437] But the actual word is not Sisyphian.

[1438] It's Sisyphian.

[1439] Oh, that's too hard for me. It's hard to say, and it makes less sense than mine.

[1440] And 96 % of the people that you say that word, too, don't know what it means, so there's no way they would correct you.

[1441] If we're just playing a numbers game, just keep rolling with it.

[1442] And I like it.

[1443] I mean, I hate to to know a fact and ignore it.

[1444] I don't like that.

[1445] Uh -huh.

[1446] The implications of that.

[1447] But I don't think anyone is harmed by hearing the word mispronounced, although some people act like it's, you know, sacrilege.

[1448] I know.

[1449] Or a great offense.

[1450] I know.

[1451] Those people should not hang out with me. Oh, yeah.

[1452] Speaking of that.

[1453] Oh, great transition.

[1454] Yeah.

[1455] A lot of people noted in Debbie's episode that you pronounce sauna in a very strange way.

[1456] Sauna.

[1457] Exactly.

[1458] And I also noted that, but for some reason, I got taken off of my fact check and I forgot to say it.

[1459] Uh -huh.

[1460] Because Randy Hammond of my girlfriend in seventh and eighth grade, oh, I love Randy Hammond.

[1461] She's so cute.

[1462] So fun.

[1463] She's a great track athlete.

[1464] We were both high jumpers and we go to track meets together and we had high jump.

[1465] Cute.

[1466] And her stepfather was Swedish.

[1467] And they had a soundest.

[1468] in the basement, and they called it a sauna.

[1469] Yeah.

[1470] Prior to that, I had called it a sauna.

[1471] Sure, like the rest of us.

[1472] Yeah, but I do believe the Swedes, the Norwegians, the Finnish, these people who love their saunas, and I do believe invented the sauna.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] They call it a sauna.

[1475] And so I'm just, you know, I'm just trying to be respectful to the creators of the product.

[1476] I kind of like it.

[1477] It's fun, right?

[1478] It wakes you up.

[1479] Well, it woke me up big time, because I didn't know what you were.

[1480] were saying.

[1481] And then you said it a couple more times by the end, I understood.

[1482] Right.

[1483] It's like if someone was telling you about going to the park and sitting at a picking nick table and they said peeking nick, you would just be so much more interested in their story and hoping that they would keep saying peeking nick table in a picking nick basket and a peeking nick blanket.

[1484] Yeah.

[1485] For me, I would love it.

[1486] Yeah.

[1487] So, you know, I guess you're welcome if you're out there randy hamina still still using the words you taught me yeah yeah she really made an impact she's so pretty just just beautiful and she was always blue ribboning in that high jump and she wasn't inordinately tall either this bitch had hops i bet she had um elite muscle mass like me oh there's no question she had that elite muscle mass i've told you too about her mom was so beautiful i was very in love with her mom too at like 14 years old And I'd go over to see Randy and I would talk to her mother in the kitchen about appliances for sometimes up over an hour.

[1488] Appliances.

[1489] Yeah, I was very into appliances when I was, well, I still am very into it.

[1490] I've always been into appliances.

[1491] I'm not concerned that you were into them.

[1492] It's a little strange that.

[1493] No, a mother who's decorating a kitchen or picking out appliances for a kitchen.

[1494] You don't think she should be hip to them?

[1495] I don't think to talk about appliances for an hour with a 14 -year -old boy is, is.

[1496] They lived in the country and, you know.

[1497] Is she wearing a robe?

[1498] I wish.

[1499] Oh, do I wish.

[1500] I just, yeah, I had a crush on her mom as well.

[1501] And anyways, I would talk to her about appliances all the time or anything I could think of to talk to her about.

[1502] They didn't get a lot of FaceTime with the dad.

[1503] Well, I did go one time to a restaurant with them as a whole family to the Boneyard, barbecue restaurant.

[1504] Oh.

[1505] Yeah.

[1506] That's the end of that story?

[1507] I just got really sad that I'm starting to forget the names of some of the roads in my hometown, you know.

[1508] It's right by Northwestern Highway and another.

[1509] Orchard Lake Road is on Orchard Lake Road.

[1510] That was starting to scare me. I know.

[1511] You started to get really upset over there.

[1512] I was.

[1513] I got emotional.

[1514] Boneyard on Orchard Lake Road.

[1515] I went with the ham on us.

[1516] I hope she doesn't feel violated by any of the stuff I just said.

[1517] Does it all seem positive?

[1518] Well, that you fucked her mom?

[1519] No, no, no, no. I didn't have any contact physically with the mom.

[1520] I just thought she was really pretty and nice.

[1521] And I loved talking to her about ranges and refrigerators and trash compactors.

[1522] And her boobs.

[1523] No, no, no, no, no. Don't try to sully this.

[1524] Very innocent.

[1525] Okay.

[1526] Okay, I got to talk about something.

[1527] She said that she did a movie that had a very normal name.

[1528] and then it turned into that she said sounded like a porn name.

[1529] Okay.

[1530] So then I've looked through her IMDB and I don't know what she's talking about.

[1531] What she thinks sounds like a porn name.

[1532] I think, this is what I think.

[1533] I think she thinks learning curves.

[1534] Learning curves?

[1535] Yeah.

[1536] Yeah, that's creepy.

[1537] You do.

[1538] Don't put an ass at the end of it.

[1539] Learning curve is a thing.

[1540] Learning curves.

[1541] A learning curve.

[1542] Like Michael owns.

[1543] Curves is now the shape of a body.

[1544] Curves are a specific thing.

[1545] It's what a female has with that hourglass shape.

[1546] Not exactly.

[1547] Curvy.

[1548] Volumptuists.

[1549] That's right.

[1550] You know the word that always boggles me is buxomie.

[1551] What the fuck is that word?

[1552] Buxamee with an X in it.

[1553] And do you say buxominy?

[1554] I've never said it.

[1555] Yeah, because it's intimidating, right?

[1556] What does it mean?

[1557] It means big boobs.

[1558] Yeah, she was very buxamy.

[1559] It's like a, it's like a PG word way to say someone's got.

[1560] Fat naturals.

[1561] Well, I don't like any of these phrases.

[1562] I told you that.

[1563] I don't like fat nachies.

[1564] I know you know.

[1565] I love it.

[1566] I know you love it because...

[1567] Fat naturals.

[1568] Did I say that or did I go straight to fat nachies?

[1569] Because that I thought was what was triggering you.

[1570] No, I don't like the fat portion.

[1571] No, think of it as P -H -A -T.

[1572] No, that's not what it means.

[1573] That's not what it means.

[1574] You know, that's not what it means.

[1575] Who would know what it means?

[1576] it means the person who introduced you to it or the person who heard it you think that's the same person okay but i'm the i'm the one who told you well you didn't make it up fat nachies i did not make it up so two other friends of mine introduced me to it and i loved it fat naturals yeah and you really think that the intent of that word fat is p h a t yes i can tell you regardless of what you think about that the two gentlemen that introduced me to the term and then me too, it is a great compliment.

[1577] I know that it's a compliment.

[1578] I'm not saying that you don't think it's a compliment, but you know that the word fat in that phrase is not referring to P -H -A -T.

[1579] It is.

[1580] Like if you were to say, oh, she had this just big fat ass and fat tities, that is, you're saying you are in.

[1581] You're excited by that.

[1582] I know.

[1583] We're talking about two different things.

[1584] I'm not saying you aren't excited, but you're talking about actual fat.

[1585] Well, literally, I think that's what's in titties.

[1586] Exactly.

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] You are talking about fat.

[1589] So how could that be derogatory?

[1590] Because nobody wants to be associated with anything FAT.

[1591] Oh, contraire, mon frere.

[1592] Remember when Joy was in here and she said she was completely insecure in her neighborhood, in the Bronx, that she didn't have a fat ass, that that was very much desired.

[1593] Okay.

[1594] If someone said you have a fat dick, I'm in.

[1595] Thank you.

[1596] That's great.

[1597] You want someone to say.

[1598] I don't think that someone's saying my penis has a beer belly attached to it.

[1599] Okay.

[1600] Well, I don't like it.

[1601] Okay.

[1602] Well, I will never, ever describe your breasts as fat naturals.

[1603] Great.

[1604] But at gunpoint, forced to describe, who has the keys?

[1605] Monica does.

[1606] Who's Monica?

[1607] She, my friend, what does she look like?

[1608] And then by gunpoint, they forced me to describe exactly what you look like.

[1609] What do you want me to say?

[1610] I guess Buxamee.

[1611] Buccemi.

[1612] Bucumee?

[1613] I guess.

[1614] Okay.

[1615] 4 -11, Buximmy.

[1616] Pussy boots, eyes.

[1617] Doesn't it be Buximus?

[1618] Maximus?

[1619] Buximus maximus?

[1620] If you were a ruler in Greece.

[1621] They would have called you Buximus Maximus.

[1622] But and also, just for the record, if I asked to describe you, I would go on and on about your intellect and your great personality and how responsible and competent you are.

[1623] It'd be a long time before I got to your faturals.

[1624] I think it would be third.

[1625] So this is also interesting because I don't have that body issue.

[1626] Which one?

[1627] Feeling like, yes.

[1628] Yes.

[1629] No. I don't have that at all.

[1630] No, not at all.

[1631] So you've been blessed with a great metabolism and moderation and eating.

[1632] I have a small frame and...

[1633] But you don't have to be like bonkers about your diet in order to stay in the shape you're in.

[1634] Correct.

[1635] Yeah, which is great.

[1636] Yeah, but it's just interesting because that's not an...

[1637] It's a privilege for sure.

[1638] Yeah.

[1639] But it is not an issue that I have, but I still am triggered by that.

[1640] Interesting.

[1641] Yeah.

[1642] So to me, that's how, that's like how embedded it is in society that girls should be skinny.

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] Oh, so I think it was learning curves.

[1645] Learning curves, for sure.

[1646] And what was learning curves about?

[1647] Brad, an art student hoping to win a prestigious fellowship, finds his life and career turned upside down when he falls for a faculty member at his college.

[1648] You would love this movie because it's about a professor and student love affair.

[1649] I would love it.

[1650] I'm going to watch it over the holiday.

[1651] Okay, I just have one last test for you.

[1652] You don't like the term fat naturals.

[1653] Correct.

[1654] But let's just say that you intercepted a message from your professor on a piece of paper.

[1655] Eric Covington.

[1656] Eric was forced to describe you to another professor.

[1657] Okay.

[1658] And he added fat naturals into that description.

[1659] Would you not be excited that he was just aware of your fatchleness?

[1660] He would never use that phrase.

[1661] I know he wouldn't.

[1662] Of course not.

[1663] And he wouldn't be sliding a piece of paper than the other professor to describe you.

[1664] I'm just saying you become aware of the fact that Eric Primstein or Covington.

[1665] Covington.

[1666] Oh, no. This is Gene Cordell all over again.

[1667] Well, by the way, Covington, I should remember because that was previous to Meundies.

[1668] Covington was my panty of choice.

[1669] And that's back when I wore a boxer panty, an old -fashioned boxer -pany.

[1670] And you can only get covies.

[1671] I called them covies instead of Covington's.

[1672] You could only get me covies at Sears.

[1673] Sears?

[1674] It's one of the most blue -collar things in my life at that time was that I'd have to go down to Sears to get a three -pack of covings.

[1675] Wow.

[1676] Yeah.

[1677] And I'd wear them into the ground in those covies.

[1678] Well, I wonder if he comes from, if it's his family.

[1679] If he's aired at the Covington Panty fortune?

[1680] Mm -hmm.

[1681] I wouldn't be surprised.

[1682] No, he's so regal.

[1683] Mr. Covey?

[1684] I called him Eric.

[1685] You did?

[1686] He told us to.

[1687] You were trying.

[1688] He was young and hot.

[1689] What's the most brazen signal you sent him?

[1690] I wrote him an email.

[1691] Oh, good.

[1692] Here we go.

[1693] Oh, my God, yes.

[1694] Yes, yes.

[1695] I did not see this coming.

[1696] It was not sexual or anything.

[1697] You'll see.

[1698] You tell me the email.

[1699] I'll tell you how sexual it was.

[1700] I don't remember.

[1701] It was on my, I don't have it anymore.

[1702] Thank God.

[1703] Was it an email just telling him like how much he changed your life and stuff?

[1704] It was.

[1705] Yeah.

[1706] Can you?

[1707] Not that he changed my life.

[1708] Can you remember any of it?

[1709] You know, I used to do that.

[1710] I used to like really have a pattern of doing that with people.

[1711] Like telling them how much they impacted you?

[1712] Yes, via the written word.

[1713] Would you be a little buzzed when you'd write these emails?

[1714] Never.

[1715] No, no, no. No, no. No, I was just like waiting.

[1716] to send him that.

[1717] Oh, my God.

[1718] I'm waiting for the response.

[1719] How did he respond?

[1720] He was probably so nervous.

[1721] This semester has been so eye -opening and I thank you for broadening my horizons.

[1722] Something like that.

[1723] Did you say anything like you have a real special.

[1724] And then I signed off Monica.

[1725] Fat -Natchy's Padman.

[1726] But did you say, did you, I have to imagine you said something like you really have a special gift I probably did say something like that.

[1727] Right.

[1728] And then what was his response?

[1729] You must remember that word for a word.

[1730] Weirdly, I don't.

[1731] I should be emotional about that.

[1732] Like, you were emotional about the street you couldn't remember.

[1733] I can't remember what he said.

[1734] I remember being happy with it.

[1735] In my head, I feel, well, it was the end of the year.

[1736] I probably said something like, I know you don't know me. There's no way you know me. But I'm in this period and whatever.

[1737] And then I think he responded in a way that let me know that he did know me. Yeah, he did.

[1738] And then I liked that.

[1739] What if you had written to him, Dr. Covington, I often go through three MeCoveys during one of your lectures.

[1740] I should have.

[1741] I run through me Covey's faster.

[1742] Bigness opportunity.

[1743] All right.

[1744] Well, I love you.

[1745] I'm jealous of Mr. Covington.

[1746] And I hope everyone has a great holiday season this year.

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