Jordan Peele

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, Dax Shepherd, joined by Monica Miles.

[1] Hello.

[2] Hello.

[3] Your favorite filmmaker?

[4] Yeah.

[5] I think so.

[6] Yeah.

[7] I love him.

[8] Yes.

[9] In a deep, deep way.

[10] Yeah.

[11] And I really love him, too.

[12] This was a really, really incredible interview.

[13] I felt so connected to Jordan Peel.

[14] It was a treat.

[15] So, Jordan Peel, of course, I mean, he's an Academy Award -winning filmmaker.

[16] He's a comedian.

[17] He's an actor.

[18] He fell in love with him on Keam Peel.

[19] Mad TV, which we talk about a lot.

[20] He also directed the greatest horror movie ever made.

[21] Get Out, Us, Nope.

[22] He's outstanding.

[23] He has a new podcast that he's producing on Spotify called Quiet Part Loud.

[24] It's a scripted podcast that tells a story set in the 90s, but really about present day, topical tasties.

[25] As he always does.

[26] As he always does.

[27] He also has a new movie out right now on.

[28] Netflix, an incredible animated project that he did with one of the greatest living animators called Wendell and Wild.

[29] Yes.

[30] So check out Wendell and Wild and listen to Quiet Part Loud on Spotify.

[31] Please enjoy Jordan Peel.

[32] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[33] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[34] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[35] He's an obtranexswain.

[36] I've been trying to get you since day one.

[37] Do you need a coat?

[38] I can use a couple of coats.

[39] A couple of coats.

[40] I have my comfort -dust hoodie on.

[41] Oh.

[42] Do you have any lucky wardrobe items?

[43] I'm being sincere.

[44] I wouldn't use the word lucky.

[45] I would say a hoodie is a security blanket.

[46] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[47] You have a uniform.

[48] Yeah, but first and foremost, it's like a cozy security thing.

[49] That makes me feel safe.

[50] I like that.

[51] It also always, in a pinch, provides also some decoy.

[52] You can flip that hood up and disappear a little bit.

[53] You can completely disappear.

[54] Yeah.

[55] You can go, who do we have here?

[56] Oh, my God, Jordan.

[57] Welcome to this jump.

[58] Get comfy in there.

[59] I think we're learning we need the longer arm.

[60] This can't come over here.

[61] Oh, yeah, can.

[62] It can reverberate.

[63] It can tremble up front.

[64] Oh, yeah.

[65] Oh, yeah.

[66] Oh, I love this.

[67] Wow.

[68] Something just clicked in.

[69] Like, it all of a sudden, it went.

[70] click and now it feels so good everything's right your hand is perfectly out on the couch so uncomfortable and now I feel like the most comfortable I'm delighted to hear that okay so no lucky wardrobe because I have so a couple lucky pair of underwear as in like you honestly believe it works well so this is what's tricky because I don't believe in any kind of other power out there yet if I know I have something important I go let's just throw those on I had good experience in the And then I just feel, well, I'm giving myself the best shot possible because I'm wearing these me and these.

[71] You are.

[72] You're a believer.

[73] Yeah.

[74] You are a believer.

[75] That's not just a security blanket.

[76] You're like, I don't believe it in shit, but.

[77] Right.

[78] Why push it?

[79] Anyway.

[80] I'm not going to be harmed by it, right?

[81] Yes.

[82] We interview a lot of athletes, and I'm sure you've heard athletes talk about this.

[83] The more micro details they can control prior to the uncontrollable event, the whistleblowing, the game starting.

[84] It gives you this sense of control.

[85] Yes.

[86] Do you have any of that stuff?

[87] Superstition?

[88] Yeah.

[89] I'm not going to move quite past luck yet.

[90] I do feel I have been lucky.

[91] Right.

[92] To a weird point.

[93] Elaborate.

[94] Because I agree.

[95] All of us sitting here.

[96] We are very lucky.

[97] And congratulations, by the way.

[98] Right back at you.

[99] This shows epic.

[100] But I do feel very lucky.

[101] And I feel at many points in my life where things could have gone one way and things could have gone another way.

[102] And I got the fortunate way.

[103] And so I always hold that as something that helps you get through the tough times is to sort of believe in the better side of the fortune.

[104] Yes.

[105] Because you've seen it go that way.

[106] It'll work out because it's been working out.

[107] Don't you think so much of it boils down to like how big of a timeline you're evaluating your life in?

[108] Because if we go hourly, it's a beat down.

[109] It's a struggle.

[110] If we go daily, it seems hard.

[111] We all have these failures throughout this long journey that we've been on, right?

[112] But then if you look at it from the aliens looking at your life and you look at, let's just talk statistically, how many kids raised by single mothers accomplish X, Y, and Z. For me, at least I look at it and I go, oh yeah, there's something really, really lucky happening.

[113] In addition to the hard work and everything else, you look at the whole timeline, it gets a little suspicious.

[114] You look at the whole timeline, you mean as in your whole life?

[115] The whole life, yeah.

[116] Yeah, I mean, it's so weird.

[117] The whole concept.

[118] of perspective and where I am in terms of other people is such a mind fuck, right?

[119] Uh -huh.

[120] And it's one of the reasons I think religions and spirituality sort of end up kind of saying, well, it's all connected in this big energy, which I don't think is fucking wrong.

[121] I don't have a hard theory.

[122] But yeah, man, I don't know where we're going with this.

[123] We just talk.

[124] If this makes you feel better, we don't know.

[125] Yeah, that's just chit -chat.

[126] I will say that this kind of shit, the existential, what the fuck is going on shit is at the core of why I'm obsessed with horror and comedy.

[127] Really?

[128] It's the driving force of it all.

[129] That fear, it's kind of wards off the fear.

[130] Does it ward it off or is it a safe place to act it out?

[131] Yes, that too.

[132] And it's what you were saying.

[133] It's a way to feel and control of my fear.

[134] Yes.

[135] If I can tell the story, if I can tell the joke, if I can elicit these responses, these uncomfortable responses in other people, I am somehow escaping the fear for a while.

[136] And you're demonstrating your effectiveness.

[137] So you're confirming yourself, oh, I do have some say in all this, because I do X, Y, and Z, and it gets me the result I predicted.

[138] That's comforting to have some saying in it all.

[139] Yes.

[140] I remember very strongly that sense of being a kid in bed and afraid of the dark, and my mind just going crazy.

[141] And that is such an uncomfortable sensibility because you're out of control.

[142] And so I think so much of what drives us, is trying to cope with this most uncomfortable of emotions that is fear.

[143] Do you think there's a reason that you were a fearful kid?

[144] Because I was a completely fearful kid as well, and I think it trickled down from my parents.

[145] Remember we had R. L. Stein on.

[146] Goosemump's author.

[147] Oh, yes.

[148] Oh, yes.

[149] Legend.

[150] And he was saying he laughs at horror movies, and he thinks it's funny, and he is not scared of anything.

[151] But in talking about his parents, he was like, oh, my mom was scared of everything.

[152] It was so annoying.

[153] She wouldn't let me do this.

[154] And I was like, oh, well, that's why you're not scared of anything in defiance of that.

[155] Yeah.

[156] I think I have an active imagination to the point where it's hard for me to get through a book without spiraling off into all these kind of directions of trying to write the thing in my head or something.

[157] In a formative age, I think that was part of this basis for that time when those lights go off.

[158] I'm in fucking Babadooktown, you know.

[159] And so, I mean, look, I grew up in the city.

[160] I had a very loving household, loving mother.

[161] My father wasn't in the picture.

[162] And there's always something about that uncertainty and that missing entity that I think there's a haunt to it.

[163] Yeah.

[164] So I had a ton of questions about this because I, too, was raised by a single mother.

[165] I had the benefit and the curse of an older brother.

[166] He was five years older than me. And life was fucking scary.

[167] Like, we left Dad's house at three.

[168] It was a house.

[169] It had a yard.

[170] And then we were in this welfare apartment.

[171] apartment complex with some real crazy folks.

[172] And I remember being in the house, like, where's dad?

[173] Who's going to protect us?

[174] You can hear screaming down the hallway.

[175] Things are flying against the wall.

[176] And you think, is my mom equipped to defend us?

[177] And then I'm looking at my brother.

[178] He's only five years older than me. But I guess at least I had my five -year -old brother, I kind of thought was more powerful than he was.

[179] Your only child?

[180] I was an only child.

[181] Interestingly, there was a kind of a Okay.

[182] A lot of witnesses.

[183] Yeah, yeah.

[184] I grew up in a brownstone right next to a place called the Stratford Arms Hotel that was a building that advertised that it was a home for transients.

[185] Oh, wow.

[186] And so I really did have this cast of characters.

[187] Every time I left my house, this cast of characters that was assorted.

[188] Sure.

[189] And you're a little boy.

[190] I'm a little boy.

[191] And you can't run and get dad.

[192] Look, my mom was badass.

[193] She would come and kick ass if I needed it.

[194] Sure.

[195] Well, she died to pretty.

[196] protect this, but that might happen quickly.

[197] Right.

[198] Let's just say that.

[199] There's like, you should have done anything for us, but there was an anatomical reality to life.

[200] With some of the boogeyman of the Stratford arms in question, yeah.

[201] Could have been a lopsided battle.

[202] That's right.

[203] I was deeply afraid of cockroaches, the water bugs.

[204] And so we had a basement.

[205] So this is another thing.

[206] My mom didn't shy away from like telling me scary stories.

[207] Bloody fingers in the basement is something that it's coming up for the first time in, you know, like 26 years.

[208] What?

[209] fingers in the basement.

[210] She has a lover of Halloween and this kind of thing.

[211] Ding, ding, ding.

[212] But to give her credit, one time, I was in her room, and I saw a roach that was like two inches big.

[213] My worst nightmare of the corner of my eye, and I look over, and then all of a sudden, seven of them emerged.

[214] Oh, gosh.

[215] Came out of formation behind it.

[216] It was coordinated.

[217] I was frozen.

[218] I was frozen.

[219] Like, in those movies, like, I was like, I don't know how much longer I can hold, like, Miles dice in it and T2.

[220] And my mom, speaking of James Cameron references, she busts in like Ripley, got a thing of spray.

[221] I'm not sure.

[222] You know, crushed these motherfuckers.

[223] I'll put them down.

[224] From that point on, my hero, I'll call her to be my fighting buddy.

[225] She's your emergency contact.

[226] Now, okay, I'm going to need something that may annoy you, but I see so many parallels between you and I. Okay, yes.

[227] We're starting with the single mother thing.

[228] Masculinity was a very interesting proposition.

[229] for me, because there wasn't an example of it in front of me, nor was there someone to go, like, you're on the right path, or even let's go get involved in baseball.

[230] None of that was happening.

[231] So I was really relying on my peers, like, what are we doing here?

[232] How am I a guy?

[233] How am I a man?

[234] Oh, my bike off that thing.

[235] Okay, great, I can do that.

[236] I'm curious, how are you defining, trying to become a man?

[237] Where were you looking to get that?

[238] Fucking great question.

[239] A little bit in some friends' dads.

[240] Uh -huh.

[241] But there was a real sense of taking shit into my own hands at a certain point.

[242] And it manifested in me playing hooky.

[243] Me not going to school.

[244] Okay.

[245] And saying I'm going to teach myself a bit about the world.

[246] Oh, this is wonderful.

[247] This is how I believe I sort of went out and searched for my masculinity.

[248] Claimed it.

[249] Claimed my independence, did something I wasn't supposed to do, did something actually dangerous because I'm walking around.

[250] New York City.

[251] What age do we think we're talking?

[252] The first time I did this was third or fourth grade.

[253] Okay, yeah, eight or nine.

[254] Yeah.

[255] And by the way, New York in 1987.

[256] Terrifying thing my kid would do that by like that.

[257] Right.

[258] We'll go back to 1987 as well, because I was in New York in 1987.

[259] It's not the place you're now going on vacation to.

[260] No, but at the same time, it was like, walk to school.

[261] But all in all, I would call this a good experience.

[262] What would you do on your adventures?

[263] Would you give yourself tasks?

[264] No, I would usually walk around for a couple hours and you kind of get nervous enough.

[265] Go back to the house because I was a latchkey kid, you know, like my son, watch some TV or something like that.

[266] Okay, okay.

[267] Man shit.

[268] Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. That's John Wayne stuff right there.

[269] Yeah, yeah.

[270] So I think there's a formative piece of the puzzle that you're asking about was kind of like, I got to give it myself.

[271] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[272] Nobody's going to give this to me. Do you have that?

[273] A thousand percent.

[274] With the added, I did whatever the definition was.

[275] I was so in pursuit of it, the approval, you're on track, you're becoming a man, that it led me to all the cliches, the worst of them.

[276] Fight, fuck, get hammered, all the things that teenage boys define it by, I ran right towards.

[277] Regrettably, I mean, not regrettably because we're sitting here, but I wouldn't want it for my kids.

[278] You had to unlearn a lot of stuff.

[279] You're describing the teenage years of my dreams.

[280] You went that way I ended up in a different When you went to a computer school Oh, okay, so yeah 6th grade through 8th grade I went to the computer school Right Which is a devastating thing Tell me I bring that up It's because I can't imagine dudes Had WD 40 in matches And like burn this thing That's not the crew for that Okay so this is the scariest part of growing up in New York School And I went to public school For my childhood And from 6th through eighth grade, I went to a school called I -S -44, which is a magnet school, which basically means, you know, you have all these schools kind of in one building, different names, and basically they had different, like, inception, the perceived intelligences and privileges of the kids.

[281] I was in the computer school.

[282] Had you shown some great aptitude for computers?

[283] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're just throwing in there.

[284] I wasn't.

[285] I was tossed in the computer.

[286] I don't know how.

[287] I don't know.

[288] They put you in.

[289] I don't remember applying anything.

[290] This kids and I get at he's a fucking great, yeah.

[291] They're like, we're like, we're going to put you in the.

[292] straight nerd school.

[293] He's afraid of cockroaches.

[294] They called it at the computer school.

[295] And by the way, you're right.

[296] This was like 85.

[297] Computer school.

[298] Are you kidding me?

[299] Yeah.

[300] I was tantamount to Lamar from Revenge and the Nerd.

[301] Yeah.

[302] Yeah.

[303] That's a death sentence.

[304] But, you know, look, as you do, I found comedy.

[305] I found love in film.

[306] And so I found my coolness a different way.

[307] But, man, I sure wish I found it the way you're talking about.

[308] That sounds fun.

[309] Although you end up in AA and stuff.

[310] You know, like this, so there's that.

[311] It comes with some racket.

[312] You end up with a lot of surgeries.

[313] Say, hey, all this stuff.

[314] They're fair, fair.

[315] You then go to the Tim Calhoun school.

[316] To the Calhoun School, yeah.

[317] Does it mean you think of Will?

[318] On SNL, he was always, yeah.

[319] Tim.

[320] Brilliant character.

[321] Well, how did the Calhoun School differ?

[322] So the Calhoun School, my high school.

[323] I went to private school for high school.

[324] I got scholarship.

[325] You crushed computer school, obviously.

[326] Yeah.

[327] You're downplaying.

[328] I was a logo master.

[329] I don't know how that happened, but I talked my way into this Calhoun, which was this tighter -knit, progressive, no walls, all conversations, all let's talk about it.

[330] And it clicked for me. And that was still in the city, though, right?

[331] It's still on 81st, on West End.

[332] Okay.

[333] Is it fair to say you loved it?

[334] Culturally, and my ability to sort of locate comrades was quick and good.

[335] I got my little tight -knit group of freaks, and so that was good.

[336] What was your click?

[337] Comedy already?

[338] Yeah, I was the kind of guy, by the way, who could always get along with everybody.

[339] I was a chameleon, good of surviving.

[340] You had to be.

[341] And that's where comedy came in.

[342] And so my friends are very funny.

[343] A couple of them I work with at Monkey Paul Productions to this day.

[344] Not just because of the trust, Jeff Foster, Win Rosenfeld, Ian Cooper.

[345] Oh, my God, it's great.

[346] So I'm still best friends with who I met in sixth grade, Aaron Weekly.

[347] Without him, I can't even experience what is good about the outcome of my life.

[348] I got to be with him.

[349] He and I got to be somewhere.

[350] And we're both like, oh, fuck, yeah.

[351] What's going on now?

[352] We're at the four seasons of Disney World.

[353] You and I are, two dirt road kids.

[354] We're here.

[355] I need him for me to even experience it in some weird way.

[356] I get so much out of staying connected to it.

[357] That's a real phenomenon.

[358] That rings true.

[359] And part of it is because, obviously, with success in this industry, it doesn't, solve the actual whole of your self -esteem.

[360] You've been telling yourself the last 40 years that it would.

[361] Yeah.

[362] And people like you when you're hot.

[363] There's an element of that.

[364] And it's just going to continue to draw you back to those people.

[365] Yes.

[366] And also, I don't know about you.

[367] I have this kind of maybe ego protection, which is the trick is act like you've been there.

[368] That's the saying we've heard.

[369] So it's like you get up invited to this rung in the ladder.

[370] You don't want to be the guy at the fucking whatever award show going, oh my God.

[371] Look at his own.

[372] there, right?

[373] You've got to act like this is your 80th award show you've been on.

[374] It doesn't matter.

[375] Brad Pitt just strolled by.

[376] I'm chill.

[377] And the whole mindset is almost act like you've been there, act like you've been there, act like you've been there.

[378] I've robbed myself of the actual experience because I'm acting like I've been there.

[379] And then Aaron and I get in a situation.

[380] And he's like, how do you have a tour bus?

[381] I'm like, I don't know.

[382] Isn't it nuts?

[383] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[384] And I can enjoy it and actually experience it.

[385] But otherwise, I have this whole act like, Like, I've been there.

[386] Don't expose myself as not belonging here.

[387] Yeah, I mean, that whole imposter syndrome, it's a real thing.

[388] Oh, yeah.

[389] And I almost feel at this point in my comfort zone when I'm acting like I know more than I do.

[390] Yeah, right.

[391] There's such a salesperson aspect to figuring out this whole town and everything.

[392] I'd argue 50 % of a salesperson.

[393] And then the tremendous amount is connection.

[394] I don't know if I ever got anything in my career without somehow knowing somebody to get me the audition or that was in the room or something.

[395] Any audition I've done cold where they don't know me, no one knew what to make of me. So that other piece, knowing people.

[396] You become aware, as I'm sure you are, because I've gotten to direct movies, I've gone into studios and convinced them to give me money, and I both recognize, thank God you're tall.

[397] That's so helpful.

[398] I mean, sincerely, there's studies on it, right?

[399] People trust tall people more.

[400] Bro, if I was tall, I don't even...

[401] You don't even...

[402] You don't even...

[403] You know, Deere, Dino would be washing your underwear if you were tall.

[404] If I was tall right now...

[405] But Key and Peel wouldn't have worked as well if you were all so tall.

[406] You're not at work.

[407] That is the best point.

[408] Yeah, like, what?

[409] Is that show with the two tall...

[410] Does he look?

[411] Right?

[412] There you go.

[413] I have to be honest with myself and think, how many other dudes had a much more creative take than I've ever had on anything?

[414] But they couldn't stand up in front of their classroom.

[415] make a speech.

[416] When the Tim Burton's of the world get through, I'm like, oh, God, it's a miracle.

[417] You got to have so much.

[418] The thing that we've been sort of focusing on over my production company, Monkey Paul Productions, is this thing that when Get Out happened and it had this effect where I felt it helped or at least didn't hurt these other projects that I was into, not even a part of, but around the industry, it helped shit kind of get greenlit, right?

[419] It changed this thing and changed the perception of, who is capable of making what, just a little bit.

[420] By the way, not the only work to do this in this time period.

[421] A lot of people were leading this Renaissance, but it really did help put into the perspective, this thing you're talking about, which is there's different values that different people have walking into rooms in the industry.

[422] It's not fair, but it also robs us of some of the best movies we never got to see.

[423] Absolutely.

[424] The world of academia is helpful for this, right?

[425] You can be a pretty esoteric, terrible people skill person and find refuge for your research and then ultimately the paper speaks for itself.

[426] There's pockets, but in ours, there is so much interpersonal stuff that's going to happen.

[427] There's so many meetings.

[428] There's so many connections, as you say.

[429] There's networking.

[430] There's just being social.

[431] You can't go into your laboratory and just transcend all that.

[432] You can't just be brilliant.

[433] In academia, I think you can potentially.

[434] just be brilliant.

[435] Like, it's a system that somehow has been created where people that can't communicate all that well can go and be brilliant.

[436] Well, they can write it out.

[437] It's a different way.

[438] But how have you seen the perception of you change pre -get -out and post -get -out when you go into rooms?

[439] Is it so night and day?

[440] Yeah.

[441] Well, I have a different job when I go into a room.

[442] Now, if I'm in a room, it's because I'm helping support a project I really believe in.

[443] But the days of auditioning, I don't have to do that anymore because I can make my thing.

[444] The beauty of what Get Out taught me was that, yeah, when everything it says no, I feel like I can go into a room and make something happen.

[445] I have this faith that I can figure it out.

[446] I may not be able to, by the way, but I have this weird faith that I can.

[447] No Monkey Paw is enormously successful.

[448] Aside from the movies that you yourself are writing and directing, you're very effective.

[449] In fact, even when I was reading the list of things, I was like, this is a for real no shit production company like you guys really crushed you know we've learned a lot and had just an amazing growth and an amazing group of hires in the last few years and so now the entity that is monkey paw is something i could not be more proud of because i feel like we're in position to do just you know what everyone would want to do which is make films and television that you want to watch yes yes yes yes yes okay so here's the other parallel i think and again i'm going to be projecting a bit but this is what i think is really similar.

[450] Mad TV for you starts in 2002.

[451] Three.

[452] Punk comes out 2003.

[453] So there's no cachet on Mad TV.

[454] I was a grounding, you were second city.

[455] It's not where you wanted to be.

[456] You wanted to be at SNL.

[457] That's right.

[458] I wanted to be at SNL.

[459] I don't now want to be at MTV.

[460] I did not want to be pranking celebrities.

[461] But this thing comes around before SNL comes around.

[462] They weren't calling me. They other people got to go audition.

[463] I never did.

[464] So I got to eat.

[465] You got to take it.

[466] Yes.

[467] So forget money.

[468] It's stuck cachet for a second.

[469] So I think we started in a very similar rung of the cachet ladder.

[470] Just like bottom of the foot.

[471] Entry.

[472] Toilet.

[473] Yeah, you probably skip that rung if you were climbing a ladder.

[474] Like, you wouldn't start on the very long.

[475] You know, we're punching down.

[476] We're victimizing people who didn't ask for it.

[477] We're bullies on television.

[478] Just bottom barrel.

[479] And so we both had some, I would just say, kind of parallel ups and downs and ebbs and flows and some stagnation and then another peak.

[480] And then it's singularly pursuing.

[481] acting maybe and then that's got its own ride and then for me i had a taste of it with being on the show parenthood but then really now this thing for me is now all of a sudden the new york times wants to talking to me uh i get invited to the fucking conferences with world leaders all of apex cache it's almost like the medium of art caught up to you but we have the same experience and i think interestingly almost along the same timeline so it's 2003 and then for you get -ups, 2017.

[482] This thing starts in 2018.

[483] It's all really nicely mapped.

[484] I like it.

[485] If we charted it.

[486] So what has the cachet journey felt like to you?

[487] Because I have a real take on it.

[488] Okay.

[489] Great question.

[490] Great parallel.

[491] I would say...

[492] You guys are the same.

[493] I'm a Pisces.

[494] I don't know what you're...

[495] But you're February and January.

[496] I feel like we're still...

[497] No, they're very different.

[498] He's a cap -ro - Bustar.

[499] Let's just start us on the amount of time.

[500] I have a burger that's it.

[501] I do.

[502] Okay, so the cachet thing, that's kind of how I describe it.

[503] You get to Mad TV, I felt like I was a sketch comedy artist, artist, as a matter of fact, you know.

[504] Bill Murray waiting to happen.

[505] In Living Color, which to me, by the way, in Living Color was like high art too.

[506] I did too.

[507] But fucking funniest shit of all time.

[508] When Mad TV happened, I was like, you do what you can do with what you're given.

[509] I mean, I would say it was just a real learning experience.

[510] And the brutal part was being part of comedy that I didn't like or agree with or think it was funny.

[511] Right.

[512] But feeling like I had to kind of play that rat race to get ahead.

[513] And let's take one second about that because I agree with you.

[514] I have been in dramas.

[515] I can see the scene written and it's like, well, this certainly isn't how I would act in real life in a drama.

[516] But that's totally palatable.

[517] Being a part of a joke, I just on a cellular level think this is the absolute wrong joke.

[518] It's such a different emotional feeling, isn't it?

[519] It's brutal.

[520] It is the worst nightmare.

[521] And if you're a comedian, you think comedy is a communication.

[522] I felt like, okay, well, these are the steps you need to take to get to a place where you can actually use your voice.

[523] So I worked with amazing actors.

[524] Was Ike on with you?

[525] Ike on there with me. He was one of my all -time best friends.

[526] Boom Chicago guys were in that.

[527] Boom, Chicago.

[528] Yes, is where I met.

[529] Ike.

[530] Originally, and then we're on Mad with him.

[531] Yeah, which is a comedy theater in Amsterdam in Amsterdam.

[532] Jim, you're very familiar.

[533] In support of all of my Matt TV co -stars, the feeling that I'm speaking of seemed mutual.

[534] It was shared.

[535] Because I know.

[536] He's got a very great comedic point.

[537] Oh, my God.

[538] The cast on that show is some of the funniest people of all time.

[539] And by the way, there's a lot of funny shit on it, too.

[540] Yeah.

[541] And so I don't mean to take away all the laughs you've had from that show, and I've had a lot, too.

[542] But having to deliver one soul crusher will stick with you.

[543] It's outweighed to the nine times you scored.

[544] of something you like.

[545] But also that happened on SNL, too.

[546] It just, if you aren't a part of that group, it's like, oh, that would never happen over there.

[547] But it is.

[548] S &L, such an amazing show, but of course you hear this all the time.

[549] That is a brutal culture.

[550] You can't get around the reality that they couldn't do S &L because S &L was there.

[551] So it had to have a different take.

[552] Yeah.

[553] Now, you and I grew up thinking, no, S &L's the take.

[554] Or I did.

[555] Yeah, somewhere between S &L and in Living Color was my dream, which ultimately, by the way, it was kind of where Key & Peel ended up sort of lying in my world, right?

[556] The thing about Mad TV that I didn't like was the mean humor.

[557] I felt like that's how it was trying to set itself apart from SNL.

[558] We can be more irreverent which translated into a meanness that was infectious into the culture in the comedy, I would say.

[559] The people were nice.

[560] They wanted to make good on the mad part of the title.

[561] Mad TV.

[562] And that was another disappointment.

[563] It wasn't connected to the Mad Magazine.

[564] That was how I kind of convinced myself.

[565] Oh, no, no, no. This is high art. This is Alfred E. Nomen's Mad TV.

[566] But it really wasn't.

[567] It really wasn't.

[568] You had that too because you hated that about pumped.

[569] My sense of humor actually is not.

[570] Roasting other people.

[571] That's not my angle.

[572] It's not funny from a 6 -3 dude shitting on people.

[573] Like, I'm more likely to self -debrate.

[574] It's not my angle.

[575] It's never been how my bros and made each other laugh.

[576] No one associates you in that manner for what it's worth, right?

[577] Right, and it was like 20 years ago, and it did take me years to get over that in my own mind.

[578] Okay, so Rob, did that email not come through?

[579] You put it right there.

[580] Oh, we did, it's just way over here.

[581] Okay.

[582] I've been doing a great job without looking at any pieces of paper.

[583] I've got to just pat myself on the back.

[584] Oh, yeah, we've got stuff.

[585] I have a paper, too.

[586] Okay, oh, wow.

[587] Just in case I need it.

[588] The one thing I do love that you did on Mad TV, though, is Morgan Freeman.

[589] I'm just a sucker for a Morgan Freeman impersonation.

[590] Well, now I haven't done that one in a while.

[591] Oh, my God.

[592] It's so good.

[593] Wow.

[594] Hasn't been attempted in a fortnight.

[595] Iron Rusty.

[596] Been many moons.

[597] Oh, my God.

[598] I haven't heard this.

[599] Why is Morgan Freeman so funny to listen to?

[600] I mean, Morgan Freeman, at some point, he became God, right?

[601] Yes, he played him many times.

[602] He's played God many times.

[603] I mean, when that happens, this God.

[604] When you get there in your career, you just become funny at that point.

[605] It's like where Stephen Seagall kind of leveled out as God in his own.

[606] There's nowhere else.

[607] I think we could probably do three, four hours on Steven Segal.

[608] I have a great obsession.

[609] No, I've never met him.

[610] Have you?

[611] No. Okay.

[612] So you have an obsession with Steven Seagal.

[613] This is fun.

[614] Because.

[615] Oh, my God.

[616] I don't know whether to start at the end or the beginning.

[617] Can we really launch into a Stevenson?

[618] Well, I just want to say, above the law was the first one.

[619] I was in.

[620] Who's this guy?

[621] He's got a ponytail hero.

[622] He doesn't look like any of my karate heroes.

[623] There's a whole new take.

[624] This guy's tall.

[625] It was cool.

[626] And a lot of like wrist action.

[627] That was proprietary, right?

[628] Ethnically ambiguous.

[629] You're like, yeah.

[630] Played it all, by the way.

[631] Native American.

[632] No one never had shit to say.

[633] He started talking black.

[634] There's this great YouTube compilation of, he transitioned into he was Native American for a while.

[635] And then he was black.

[636] Then I just, by total happenstance, I'm flicking through the channels, and I learned that he is a goddamn sheriff in Louisiana.

[637] Did you see that show?

[638] Right.

[639] There was a reality show that was Stephen Seagal as a sheriff.

[640] And he's like, a lot of people know me from film and television.

[641] And you're like, what is this voice?

[642] And it turns out he had been a sheriff for decades and a jazz musician.

[643] So the show was either him ticketing people for DUIs or rocking out in a Bourbon Street fucking jazz quartet.

[644] And then, of course, everyone knows.

[645] He's all kinds of martial arts actual master.

[646] And so it just seems like he is on paper the coolest person of all time.

[647] When you're in seventh grade, you're like, let me get this straight.

[648] This guy's a cop, a jazz musician.

[649] Oh, my gosh.

[650] Owned a dojo in Japan was his claim.

[651] It doesn't get better.

[652] And then the story that you hear is that he's fucking asshole.

[653] Yeah, it's very proud of that.

[654] I've never met him.

[655] He may be a great person, but you hear constantly that he's an asshole.

[656] And what do we say the friends we keep?

[657] His best friend is Vladimir Putin.

[658] That's like the last chapter.

[659] If you and I sat down in 86 and tried to draft, let's make the perfect ending.

[660] Let's make him friends with a fucking Russian despot.

[661] What?

[662] No, I mean, it feels like an action movie that was grounded in reality.

[663] Use the deep fake technology to just do people without asking them, you know, have Putin be the enemy of something.

[664] I mean, it's an art installation in his life.

[665] And it's just incredible.

[666] And it's happening in front of our eyes, and we're all missing it.

[667] It's like, no, no, this guy, he's now best friends with Vladimir Putin.

[668] I think there's a lot of like Me Too stuff.

[669] Oh, there's that stuff.

[670] A ton of that, yeah.

[671] Yeah, it's not great.

[672] You know.

[673] All right, we've closed the show on.

[674] All right.

[675] Everyone I want you to check out.

[676] How do we get here?

[677] Because we were talking about being typecast.

[678] That doesn't matter.

[679] Still don't know.

[680] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[681] If you dare.

[682] What's up, guys, this is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[683] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[684] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[685] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[686] And I don't mean just friends.

[687] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[688] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[689] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[690] We've all been there.

[691] internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[692] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[693] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[694] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[695] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[696] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[697] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[698] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[699] We've got to touch down on Key & Peel.

[700] I have to imagine that Key & Peel for you was the first Eureka.

[701] Oh, this feels wonderful regardless of any results.

[702] Yeah.

[703] It felt a lot like having been just held back, knowing what I wanted to do, developing what I wanted to do, and then all of a sudden someone's saying, you can do it.

[704] Yeah.

[705] And that's nine years after Mad TV starts.

[706] Holy shit, yeah.

[707] So it's a ride before you get to be executing the thing you had always hoped you could execute.

[708] Yeah.

[709] It feels like a year, you know, when I think back at that time.

[710] But five of it was on Mad, and then four of it was probably did a couple movies.

[711] started conceiving of monkey paw in the broader terms.

[712] Because Key & Peel is the first monkey paw production.

[713] Yeah.

[714] Even I assumed, oh, post -get -out, he set up a shingle, like, or universal, and that makes sense.

[715] But this predates that.

[716] When you start making a little bit of money, they tell you to incorporate.

[717] You get to make your company.

[718] It's just this cool feeling of like, ooh, I've got a company now.

[719] Yeah.

[720] It feels great.

[721] It feels great.

[722] Type of industry.

[723] And they're basically like, look, it's a thing that goes on your credit card.

[724] Like, don't get ahead of yourself.

[725] But to me, I just bought into the sauce and sort of, you thought you did the same thing.

[726] Guess what mine's named?

[727] What is it?

[728] You want to talk parallels?

[729] Okay.

[730] Primate.

[731] Oh, shit.

[732] See?

[733] Oh, yeah.

[734] That's right.

[735] There is something happening there.

[736] I didn't even put that one together to just this moment.

[737] My corp is primate.

[738] Well, there is something happening, right?

[739] There's like suspicious.

[740] It's very sense.

[741] To come up with our corporation, we're trying to pick up with something that we feel like represents us.

[742] Why monkey pole?

[743] This thing about luck that you started with.

[744] It's the terms of magic that I think are cool to me. Horror magic is the magic of chance.

[745] Because what is the historical, like, what does monkey paw represent?

[746] There's a short story by a guy named W .W. Burroughs is written 1918 or something.

[747] It's this Faustian story, okay?

[748] So there's a trinket that's a monkey paw.

[749] And every time you make a wish, it grants you your wish.

[750] You wish for a million dollars.

[751] Get a knock on the door.

[752] Someone tells you, your son died.

[753] by a trolley accident.

[754] Here's a million dollars.

[755] Oh, wait.

[756] Right?

[757] So it's that notion that once I got what I thought I wanted in Mad TV, it birthed this whole other world of nightmares.

[758] I didn't know what was possible.

[759] This idea of like being up on television telling a joke you didn't believe in.

[760] Yeah, yeah.

[761] So it was just this kind of primal chord that story struck with me. A notion that helps me understand that sometimes it is about how you look at things.

[762] You can find fortune and you can find good fortune.

[763] and where there is bad things as well.

[764] Can I suggest it's a declaration that I'm going to play this game, but I'm in on it.

[765] Yeah.

[766] Which could be a little bit of ego preservation.

[767] I personally do a lot of stuff like this.

[768] Yeah, I'm playing this game, but I know why I'm playing.

[769] That sounds right.

[770] That sounds right.

[771] Like, I'm not being taken advantage of.

[772] That thing you're saying in the beginning about allowing yourself to have your power, allowing yourself to feel in control.

[773] Play hooky.

[774] Well, the downside of it for me, because I do this, pathologically destructively i guess i'm afraid of embarrassment i guess maybe that's the ultimate fear is like i'm going to be humiliated and for me the deepest humiliation would be you caught me believing in myself that's it hurts you caught me believing in myself and then the thing failed and i'm not even embarrassed about the failure as much as you caught me believing in myself that somehow that would be a sin it's very so if i name something monkey paw it almost be like i'm I'm going to play the game, but when it tells me I got it because my kid got hit by a trolley, I want you to know I already knew that was coming.

[775] So you didn't really catch me. That would be my weird warped version.

[776] I'm not suggesting that's yours.

[777] No, but I connect to this.

[778] Do you feel like the times where that's been felt inflicted on you?

[779] Do you feel like you've grown from that?

[780] Yeah.

[781] It happens when you make a movie.

[782] You've done three movies, right?

[783] I've done three movies that I've directed.

[784] And you had counting what you wrote.

[785] So it's a similar thing.

[786] You're right it.

[787] You star in it.

[788] The opening weekend means more to you than it would if you're just an actor in it.

[789] With all four of those, yes, yes, absolutely.

[790] Because it really can be the end of opportunity.

[791] These things are enormous.

[792] They feel enormous.

[793] That's the objective reality.

[794] But then for me, there's the vanity and the ego preservation, which is, if I'm walking around town going, it tested 94, this thing's going to crush.

[795] And then it doesn't, that's another level for me of embarrassment and shame.

[796] And in preventing that outcome, I never let myself believe in any one of the year.

[797] things.

[798] And the last go around, I was like, you know what, I'm going to fucking blindly believe in it.

[799] And if it doesn't work out, don't work.

[800] Because I want to.

[801] I want to enjoy that.

[802] Yes.

[803] I don't want to protect myself.

[804] I want to have faith in myself.

[805] That feels good.

[806] Yes.

[807] And what if it is it?

[808] And I missed it.

[809] You know, I'm going to just be surprised.

[810] Do you want to be like, I'm fucking know.

[811] It's good.

[812] I want to have that experience.

[813] Yes.

[814] There's so much mental.

[815] Man, so much.

[816] I did so much live comedy in the beginning of my career.

[817] I look at it as an era that helped teach me to fail.

[818] It still didn't quite protect me for how painful some of these failures have been, but I feel like I'm past my largest failure.

[819] Right.

[820] Even if I have a bigger failure, I feel like I'm past the one that will hurt me the most.

[821] Yes.

[822] Okay, great.

[823] And this is virtually exactly where I wanted to go.

[824] So on this cachet ladder, I feel with deep gratitude, I think I'm actually post all of it.

[825] Yes, good.

[826] And I wonder if you feel post it.

[827] Yeah, you know, I mean, I think the thing that I'm always trying to engage the conversation with myself is this idea of the ego monster.

[828] Because when something doesn't go your way or you don't get your credit or your love or your thing, you know, there's that really dark physical feeling that happens.

[829] that you really have to work at.

[830] Yeah.

[831] You have to just kind of remind yourself to be able to exist without fearing that your existence is in jeopardy.

[832] But so much of the way that we, I'm assuming, have gotten to this position is this protective zone that has served us in a lot of ways, but has also kind of prevented us from other creative things that hopefully we can do.

[833] Lots of wounds, but never defeated.

[834] Yeah.

[835] Yeah.

[836] I've said from the very beginning of entering this game, looking at people who really do make it, it's above all an endurance thing.

[837] I think we could both agree on others who have it.

[838] Chris Rock is a great example.

[839] He doesn't have to do a comedy special for nine years, and he will be sitting all nine years going, I have a POV that when I want to turn it on, it'll be there.

[840] It'll be what it is, and everyone will know.

[841] I'm not in a hurry.

[842] The verdict's in for life.

[843] I'm Chris fucking Rock.

[844] I'm Chappelle.

[845] People achieve that.

[846] And I see that you have.

[847] And I would hope that you feel that.

[848] Thank you.

[849] You might direct 25 other great movies, but it'll just be more icing on the cake.

[850] You did it.

[851] Get out, you come out with this movie.

[852] I don't see horror movies.

[853] I go see that movie.

[854] I'm talking about that movie.

[855] It's impossible.

[856] I mean, that was the stepping stone, I think.

[857] But for a voice, such a singular voice, you know what you're getting, you go see something of yours and it is of such a high caliber always and it is so safe we talk about that with certain actors like matt damon like you go and you you feel safe when you go like they're not going to fuck with you it's not going to be bad they have such a perspective and point of view you communicated what's in jordan's brain and we received it so that's what i mean that's the accomplishment and that's something that's permanent i don't know that if you had stopped me eight years ago at points in my career, I still hadn't done it.

[858] I hadn't really let you inside here.

[859] It feels like you're moving towards truth.

[860] I feel like truth works.

[861] I think truth works even more than lies, which really, really, really do work.

[862] But truth.

[863] Truth resonates in this crazy way because it's actually harder to get at a lot of times.

[864] For instance, in my career, I feel like when people are seeing me do jokes, I don't believe in, they can tell.

[865] And I'm less funny.

[866] I feel like when people see me telling jokes that I do believe in it, I write, then they can tell.

[867] And all of a sudden, I'm getting the truth.

[868] I'm not pretending to be a different type of comedian or something.

[869] And then when I start actually telling my stories and actually putting my truth, then they really, really, really hear me. And I feel like that's probably what your breakthrough has to do with as well as people understanding who you are in a realer way.

[870] It took me a long time to figure out how to articulate it and get the opportunity to articulate it and all that.

[871] It seems like as with you as well.

[872] Well, the podcast realm, and by the way, we're just sort of dipping our toe into it in Monkey Paul with this quiet part loud thing.

[873] I listened to the first episode.

[874] It's super cool, super scary, and it really kind of has engaged me with what's possible in the audio space more.

[875] What are you seen as the appealing part?

[876] With this quiet part loud thing, it's directed by Mimi O'Donnell, stars Tracy Letts.

[877] And it is, first of all, just an amazingly precision point.

[878] It's a topical horror story.

[879] It's a horror story that feels like it needs to be told through this meeting because it's about sound.

[880] It's a disc jockey who, in the wake of 9 -11, is quick to call these four boys or three boys that disappear terrorists in a part of a cell.

[881] Yes, that's the starting point, like a Rush Limbaugh sort of right -wing guy, this sort of pre -Trumpian politics example of this hate that's that has kind of always been festering in this country.

[882] in a way, waiting to be unleashed.

[883] So the connection that this character just brilliantly portrayed by the great Tracy Letts, of course, encounters an entity that is truly terrifying and ultimately uses sound as part of its methodology of possession and whatnot.

[884] And so besides the plot mechanic that's in here, with horror, we often say what you don't see can be scarier than what you can see.

[885] And so this idea of letting people's imaginations do a bit more of the work is really appealing i feel like podcast is this weird space between film and books books you're limited to literally reading symbols on a page this you're limited there's no smell there's no sight it's just what you're hearing and i do think it forces you to imagine what you and i look like talking right now yep generally it's heard with headphones so you're isolating your other senses there's this weird intimacy that exists here Yeah.

[886] There's no distractions.

[887] People always want us to do video, and I'm like, no, no. I don't want you reading your t -shirt right now, your Candy Man T -shirt.

[888] That's not what I want people to be doing.

[889] I don't want them to be evaluating you and I have gray in our beards.

[890] Like, yeah, I know.

[891] It's just there.

[892] There's no distraction.

[893] Does that appeal to you about the space?

[894] I've been listening to this one in my car.

[895] Armchair.

[896] Quiet part loud.

[897] Okay, I was going to say, like, oh, I'm really excited for a second.

[898] Like I said, this is like my first podcast.

[899] Oh, I know.

[900] I knew you're a hard man to get.

[901] Or just to say that my first one listening to is this one that we created.

[902] Ever.

[903] Ever.

[904] Wow.

[905] I'm new to the podcast world.

[906] Do you have a pen?

[907] I'm going to throw you a pen.

[908] You're going to give me some stuff.

[909] Give them our top ten episodes.

[910] This is why I'm telling you.

[911] No. I'm way behind the curve.

[912] There's one you must put at the front.

[913] Okay, here we go.

[914] You must start the original doctor death.

[915] If you like horror, well, not if you like horror.

[916] You like horror.

[917] This is a real life medical horror.

[918] Yes.

[919] It'll blow your mind.

[920] They made a television adaptation.

[921] Don't worry about that.

[922] Don't worry about that.

[923] Listen to that podcast.

[924] It's the best one I've ever heard.

[925] Kristen and I started it.

[926] Within the first four minutes of Kristen and I listening to in the car, my heart rate is up.

[927] It's true crime.

[928] It's a surgeon who has no business operating on people's spinal columns.

[929] Oh, my God.

[930] It goes from there.

[931] And it is alarming.

[932] It's incredible.

[933] For you, Cyril.

[934] Yeah.

[935] But one thing I was going to say about podcasts and why it probably is great for a horror one, People are in their bathroom with their headphones in.

[936] You know, they're doing dishes.

[937] They're in their home, doing the most intimate things.

[938] So I can imagine if something scary is happening, it feels extra scary because you're not in a movie theater where you're safe in a room where you know what's going on.

[939] Something could happen at any moment.

[940] That imagination thing you're talking about, you can take it to this other level.

[941] And when you start hearing, say, sound effects of some gore happening.

[942] Whether or not you know exactly what's happening, you fill in the blanks.

[943] Yeah, yeah.

[944] You know, with your scariest thing, which is better than my scariest thing.

[945] Yeah.

[946] You know, so obviously I'm very late to the curfier, but I can see how the old radio plays fascinated and the magic of even, you know, you think about the first storytelling, looking at the stars, the campfire, that a different kind of magic comes through when the limitations are off.

[947] We were just interviewing Tom Hanks, and he made this great point, which is we've now maxed out the tech.

[948] So his example was you can drain Lake Michigan and fill it with cuckoo clocks.

[949] That's an option on the table if you're directing the movie.

[950] And now that we can do every single thing, what really counts, because the creative box you're working in is limitless.

[951] So now, weirdly, it's coming back down to what's truthful, what's simple, what's compelling, what's essential story.

[952] Yeah, it's a holiday.

[953] If you can imagine it, you can make it be seen, but that doesn't mean that there's anything there.

[954] Yeah.

[955] I tend to think that performances are the most essential thing you need for a good movie.

[956] You know, if all the craft pieces of the puzzle, if everything else is great but the performances aren't good, then you're in trouble.

[957] But if the performances are good and the rest of it sucks, even in a weak script, eke out a good movie.

[958] That's kind of at least what I like to tell them my actors.

[959] No. Yeah.

[960] Have you ever seen Idiocracy?

[961] Oh yeah.

[962] Their budget wasn't there to do the future.

[963] Right.

[964] It's not there.

[965] But they pulled the fuck off.

[966] It doesn't matter.

[967] Yeah.

[968] It looks like shit.

[969] Doesn't look futuristic.

[970] One of the funniest, man. Yeah, it has the other thing.

[971] I had one thing I wanted to ask you when we were talking about your cachet.

[972] I do wonder if you feel maybe it's unfair at this point because you did get out and then everyone made you the person.

[973] You're the face.

[974] You're the voice of exposing racial injustice in this world of humor.

[975] And you became a larger -than -life perspective, I think.

[976] And sometimes I wonder, is it fair?

[977] Can Jordan just go do a Western sci -fi movie and not have everyone look into it of what does it mean?

[978] What is this?

[979] And what is you trying to tell us?

[980] That's a lot of pressure.

[981] And can you just do something regular like a white counterpart might be able to?

[982] I tend not to think of it in terms of a powerlessness or something.

[983] I think part of it is because from early on, my creative notion has been, if there's a box, you bust it open.

[984] If there's a box, you break it.

[985] So I guess boxes don't scare me in that way.

[986] They provide something for me to do.

[987] Yeah.

[988] And so I'm subject to the same rules of, I have to make.

[989] make things that are worthy of people's attention.

[990] I want to honor the kind of the contract you've made.

[991] Yeah.

[992] If I fail, I deserve what they say in a way.

[993] That's what that conversation is.

[994] But part of, I think, the journey that we shared, Dax, which is this slow, slow journey to where we've gotten.

[995] And I do think in a lot of ways, when you see somebody get them real overnight oats.

[996] You know what I mean?

[997] Where you really don't have a sense of how to deal with being recognized or a sense of how to be loved or all this stuff.

[998] See your name on the internet.

[999] The slow burn is the right most healthy way, I think.

[1000] And it's kind of helped me get to this position where I'm like, you know what, I have to be able to brush off the critiques.

[1001] Take it with a grain of salt.

[1002] You got the big wish.

[1003] It's going to come with this.

[1004] You knew it was going to come with this.

[1005] What I have felt, and I love that you asked that question because I have been feeling concern and love from people who have been saying things like this, who are aware of the pressure that must be.

[1006] It's the Tarantino Pulp Fiction thing.

[1007] Right.

[1008] As much as I would kill to have directed Pulp Fiction, I also don't want to be on the backside of Pulp Fiction.

[1009] That's right.

[1010] But I mean even more for a minority.

[1011] I feel this sometimes.

[1012] Do I have to be always the person who's arguing with you about a racial debate or something?

[1013] That's my job because I'm a minority and I have to be that person.

[1014] And sometimes it's like, I don't really want to be that person today.

[1015] That's right.

[1016] you're picking up on some directionality of how these movies have gone, where out of Get Out of Get Out, people thought that all of my films were going to be about race.

[1017] You know, and then so us, I think I was able, through showing a different type of story, show them it's not exactly like that.

[1018] Yeah.

[1019] The movie's not divorced from race because you can't do that.

[1020] There's no world where that happens, but the plot isn't that.

[1021] Right.

[1022] And so those boxes give me these little opportunities.

[1023] And then with Nope, I could sort of focus on something that's about aliens and siblings and exploitation in Hollywood.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] So what's so funny is I had a similar thought when thinking about what to ask you about.

[1026] Mine with the other way.

[1027] So I guess you could say the novel thing I did on here, which led to some success, is talk about all of my addiction, my having been molested, all these things that make me up.

[1028] I think that was rare for an actor to come on and say that seemed to be appealing.

[1029] Then I got in my head, you got to stop talking about this.

[1030] They heard it.

[1031] You're going to the well.

[1032] Now it seems exploitative or...

[1033] Like a go -to.

[1034] Yeah, like there's a voice telling me to now move past it.

[1035] And so my thought was actually opposite.

[1036] Like if I'm you, I direct Get Out, I might want to do 12 more movies about race.

[1037] It ain't going away.

[1038] You didn't fix it with this movie.

[1039] Everything that frustrated you in 2016 is still on the table.

[1040] I am always grateful that Chappelle's never taken off the race glasses.

[1041] It's all about race for him.

[1042] I actually love that he's that way.

[1043] And I actually find it to be courageous that the voice in his head doesn't say, when are you going to shut the fuck up about it?

[1044] So I actually thought more, if I'm you, maybe I want to keep doing it.

[1045] And I don't want to be labeled on original or uncreative or un -evolving.

[1046] Guess what?

[1047] I might think about this until I'm dead.

[1048] You're right, and my career has been pretty obsessed with race, to be honest.

[1049] How could it not be if you're one of 12 % in a country that's run by, you know?

[1050] I have to say, one of the things that Mad TV and Key and Peel helped me do was really attacked that topic from so many different vantage points, so many different ideas.

[1051] And so I don't disagree with you.

[1052] The next time I have a statement that I feel is as truthful about race, as good.

[1053] get out.

[1054] I will fucking make that move.

[1055] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1056] I'm not, yeah, not even afraid.

[1057] Good.

[1058] You wouldn't feel any self -consciousness of, oh, God, they're saying I'm going back.

[1059] I wouldn't.

[1060] I would jump at it.

[1061] Okay, cool.

[1062] But I feel a little bit of the pressure of the high bar with that, right?

[1063] Like, you know, like 4 .5 million versus 255.

[1064] Yes.

[1065] And I think it's one that the repeat viewing on it also kind of continues to unfold, even for myself as the creator and as I hear people experience it.

[1066] Part of the thing that is so hard about in the moment accessing really valid commentary about race for me is the world, it's just changing very fast right now.

[1067] It's a mess.

[1068] It's a fucking shit show, obviously.

[1069] But we sort of have to get our bearings a bit here before me, myself, knows what the fuck to say.

[1070] Yeah.

[1071] That's a great point.

[1072] It's evolving so quickly.

[1073] The moment you have a take on something, you blink, and now we're at a different stage of it.

[1074] You can't go shoot something for a couple of years.

[1075] Right, you can't find purchase.

[1076] The cliff is changing.

[1077] That is a unique aspect.

[1078] Okay, so Scorsese had De Niro.

[1079] I don't know.

[1080] I've never heard him say this.

[1081] Of course, I'm on the outside going.

[1082] De Niro is who Scorsese just feels like he is inside.

[1083] He knows how to write him.

[1084] He knows how to shoot him.

[1085] This guy somehow represents Scorsese's.

[1086] Avatar.

[1087] Scorsese wishes he was Robert De Niro.

[1088] Yes.

[1089] But also, Scorsese made Robert De Niro.

[1090] Yes.

[1091] It's a partnership.

[1092] Scorsese wished he was Robert De Niro before he was Martin Scorsese.

[1093] Yes.

[1094] And when you hear De Niro talking in real life, God bless him, love him, he's the best.

[1095] He's not the characters from the Scorsese movies.

[1096] No, he's not.

[1097] That's Scorsese working through De Niro.

[1098] It's a partnership.

[1099] Yes.

[1100] So, I'm fascinated by the Daniel Kalu.

[1101] of it all.

[1102] Here's my observation.

[1103] You give this guy no dialogue.

[1104] This guy doesn't get to talk, which tells me a lot of things.

[1105] One is, you trust this motherfucker.

[1106] He's like De Niro.

[1107] Just film his face.

[1108] Be patient.

[1109] It's all right there.

[1110] I don't need to tell you what he's thinking.

[1111] That's right.

[1112] Okay, so that in itself is radical.

[1113] Thank you.

[1114] I thought that was a special character and a special performance as well.

[1115] It was conceived with this idea that even with saying much, you have a soul there that is all of our brother in a way, and that we could fall in love with him for being a total foil to this sort of talkative character.

[1116] Can I say it's aspirational on a self -actualizing path in that he can be loved by just existing?

[1117] It's wonderful that you're connecting that character in that way, because I mean, I think of all the characters in Nope as aspects of myself and how they're connected to really a lot of this stuff we're talking about the sort of wounds of the industry and this kind of thing.

[1118] And part of the wound that is this industry is this idea.

[1119] I think of it as exploitation, which is to use somebody or something and leave it less valuable than when you got it.

[1120] And when it happens in this industry of the spectacle here, what happens when you wound people, this cycle of selling your own trauma?

[1121] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1122] So that's kind of where that Jupe character emerged.

[1123] from this idea of me here many years later.

[1124] You could have been that kid who grew up and had the theme park.

[1125] That's right.

[1126] I do have that theme park.

[1127] I am selling this crazy show.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] You could have also participated in the chimp's demise.

[1130] Yes, absolutely.

[1131] I mean, like I said, I think all these characters are me. And the chimp is your dream reaction.

[1132] Gordy is something, by the way, that came to me in a dream.

[1133] Many years ago, is there's a tweet that someone unearthed recently, and I didn't realize it was like part of the fuel for, no. But this tweet I said, I had a nightmare where this chimp attacked some people and came and ran to me and I woke up crying.

[1134] And so I do think that there's connection to that trained animal.

[1135] I'm most identified with the chimp in the movie.

[1136] I think a lot of people do.

[1137] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1138] Also because sitcoms personify that bullshit like everything's okay, you know, that scenario.

[1139] So the idea that Gordy would tear that fucking place apart, I think, was weirdly cathart.

[1140] Arctic for a lot of people.

[1141] Yeah.

[1142] To me, it represented.

[1143] So, yeah, I grew up watching Leave it to Beaver.

[1144] I'm single mother.

[1145] We're the trash of my neighborhood.

[1146] And I want to go in to leave it to Beaver and beat the fuck out everyone.

[1147] Wally, the Beaver.

[1148] Fuck these people.

[1149] I want to tell the mom to fuck off and the day to suck a dick.

[1150] Like, I want to destroy that.

[1151] It's all a facade.

[1152] And it's the one that I'm feeling less than in comparison to.

[1153] I want to go silver back on that set.

[1154] Yes.

[1155] And go, this man you're ruining this with this lie you're telling everyone yeah something about that i knew that that would resonate for a lot of people you know some of the scariest shit i've ever put on film shooting under the couch just kind of a sliver of perspective and yet i think people are still kind of team gorty it's weird i don't know um this is what horror is about is sort of accessing these repressions that we have so that they don't get out other ways Okay, but is it safe to say Daniel's your De Niro?

[1156] Yes, that's safe to say.

[1157] I was selling that to him early on and get out when we were shooting that.

[1158] I realized, okay, this is the real fucking deal.

[1159] So I was already kind of pumping him with this.

[1160] We're going to do a 20 of these.

[1161] You ever seen the contracts from the 50s?

[1162] I'm going to assign you to a 12 -fitchard D's going on.

[1163] Because he can communicate so much through silence, it made me wonder if you hate talking and some side of you wants everyone to shut the fuck up and just exist and stop broadcasting.

[1164] Yes.

[1165] So part of my duality is this Emerald OJ duality.

[1166] I've always been the shy kid growing up.

[1167] I was funny, but no one ever knew I would be a performer until I was 11 or something, and then all of a sudden I hit that thing.

[1168] And I've always thought of myself as an OJ.

[1169] I don't particularly like attention.

[1170] We're talking about OJ, the football player.

[1171] Either.

[1172] No, I had the O .J., Daniel Kalalia's character.

[1173] Oh, my God.

[1174] I was so confused.

[1175] I'm like, oh, I got you because he was making himself safe for America and he had transcended.

[1176] My fault for naming that fucking character, RJ.

[1177] I'm trying to like, I'm trying to get what you're saying.

[1178] I'm like, yeah, I guess I see.

[1179] He, like, transcended both.

[1180] He was quiet.

[1181] I have to rewind and listen to it.

[1182] I'm now with that context and know what I. All right, I'll start over again.

[1183] Okay, Kiki and Daniel.

[1184] Kiki plays Emerald.

[1185] Daniel plays OJ.

[1186] Okay, right.

[1187] And those are like the two's different size of my personality.

[1188] I got you, the sister and the brother.

[1189] OJ, he's the part of me that does not need to be seen.

[1190] I love to sit in my room and watch TV alone, and that's fine.

[1191] An Emerald is somehow this other weird part of me that is so validated by the love of the crowd.

[1192] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1193] And I don't know quite where that came from, except I don't know.

[1194] No one knows that around, so you got to think.

[1195] There's something about existing in this big way.

[1196] Well, as a part of skipping school, I'm going for that walk, you're like, what is it about?

[1197] Well, I guess it'll be about commanding the attention of a room I'm in.

[1198] That's part of it.

[1199] Yeah.

[1200] You're filling in the blanks.

[1201] For anyone whose parent decides to leave, you're saying, hey, you missed out.

[1202] Oh, that's nice.

[1203] Yes.

[1204] You missed out.

[1205] You nailed it.

[1206] You could add a front row secret to this show.

[1207] And I did this anyway.

[1208] Yeah.

[1209] And I didn't need you and all this.

[1210] It's easy when you put it in these terms to see the recipe of shit that keeps me pushing.

[1211] And it's this perpetuity of these two.

[1212] Well, by the way, it's almost evident in OJ's storyline that when you don't talk, people will underestimate you.

[1213] They'll treat you less than.

[1214] They'll make you expendable.

[1215] So the part of you that knows, I got to be the other thing because this is the road of the quiet guy.

[1216] Yeah.

[1217] In many ways, he sacrifices himself to become the spectacle.

[1218] at the end of the movie.

[1219] That's the character who is not expected and not meant to be that.

[1220] There's no way to do what they need to do without his life changing into something probably not natural to him.

[1221] Yeah, yeah.

[1222] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1223] Okay, Wendell and Wilde.

[1224] Then send me a link.

[1225] I watched the trailer as many times as I could.

[1226] I had no idea who...

[1227] Directed it.

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] Henry Selleck, Nightmare, Christmas.

[1230] Coraline.

[1231] James and the Giant Peach.

[1232] The dude, I mean, such a modern genius.

[1233] Can I just tell you how stupid I am?

[1234] I thought Tim Burton directed the nightmare before Christmas until I looked up Henry.

[1235] A lot of people did.

[1236] So that's just one of the popular misconceptions.

[1237] Tim Burton came up with the characters, perhaps the story.

[1238] Henry directed the film.

[1239] Yes.

[1240] And it's so, so novel.

[1241] It was such an icon.

[1242] True classic, the way it referenced the holiday claymation tradition of our youth, of our youth.

[1243] So cool.

[1244] And so Henry, then, you know, of course, he went out to do James and the Giant Peach, Coraline, Breakthrough, and Horror Animation.

[1245] And so I was a huge fan, and he approached many years ago.

[1246] Before Get Out was what I like.

[1247] That's right.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] And so he was interested in Keegan and I to play these demons.

[1250] I couldn't have known how big a fan I was, but, you know, I said, look, I have to be more part of this than just a voice.

[1251] I really want to help in any way.

[1252] And so from that point forward, I was kind of producing and helping him with the script.

[1253] To his credit, he had a really wonderful, whimsical sort of role, Dolean vision.

[1254] I basically got to help guide this into a piece that I would have loved when I was a kid.

[1255] Yeah, so it's scary.

[1256] Yeah, it's a scary.

[1257] It's definitely in the tradition of like Coralime.

[1258] Kids can take horror.

[1259] We were telling them to rush the shooters.

[1260] So they can take a Grimm's fairy tale for fun of a say yes yes yes yeah yeah reminds me really quickly I was in this movie's a thorough there was these test audiences they do the focus group afterwards the moms were complaining it's too scary for kids the questioner would go what part was it that he was afraid of Michael what was the thing oh I liked it when the thing the kids were phrasing it I liked it and the moms were saying he was too scared and it was and I was like well there's some disconnecting that the thing yeah they like it yeah I don't know The whole rating system feels a little bit obsolete, both with the internet and what our kids are actually watching and streaming and everything.

[1261] Who knows?

[1262] Exactly.

[1263] My kids are turning on something.

[1264] It takes me, like, until we find out, it's not for them.

[1265] That's when I find out.

[1266] But what is the storyline of it?

[1267] So the storyline is a girl who's orphaned.

[1268] Many years later, comes back after being tossed in and out of Juvie and ends up coming back to the town of Russ Bank, which is this.

[1269] really sort of beautifully grounded, diverse town, snowy, kind of rusty wonderland of a town.

[1270] She ends up summoning these characters, played by Keegan and I, Wendland Wilde, who are demons, her personal demons.

[1271] Her parents die in a car accident?

[1272] That's right.

[1273] Yeah, that's right.

[1274] So she summons us to conjure and to bring her parents back from the dead.

[1275] Okay.

[1276] So once again, there's an orphan thing.

[1277] There's a Faustian bargain.

[1278] Yeah.

[1279] It's all very monkeypox.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] So cool.

[1282] And so I guess that was going to be my last question for you, and you've been so gracious.

[1283] I'm so glad you came.

[1284] Thank you, man. Yeah, great meeting you.

[1285] I got curious about your allocation of time.

[1286] So I was thinking about Monkey Pond.

[1287] And I just want people to recognize beyond the things that you've done.

[1288] You also produce Candyman, Black Klansman, Wendy and Wilde, which we're talking about today, the last OG, Weird City, Lorena, the Twilight Zone, Hunters, Lovecraft Country.

[1289] Like, this is a for real no shit engine.

[1290] obviously you have to be wise about your attention what part of the process are you most apt to join is it in pitching is it in developing is it in production is it in editing is it in testing is it in promotion where is it do you wait and find out where there's a soft spot well how do you determine it do you have ones that you're more gifted at there are ones you don't want to fuck with how do you do it in terms of the aspect of running the company yeah like because there's so many elements you personally you could bring your brain trust in and help, what part of that process are you most likely to lend it to?

[1291] I've been obviously dealing with this right now in a big way.

[1292] The first part of the answer is that I was smart in the beginning when it looked like there was heat.

[1293] It was very important for me to be able to develop a company that could carry the mission and the creative energy of Monkey Paul while I was making films.

[1294] Yes.

[1295] Because, you know, I wanted to be a producer and a director and then, you know, when Get Out happened, should I didn't know the directing?

[1296] was going to go that well.

[1297] Yeah, right, right, right.

[1298] And that really is the best way for me to lead my companies to kind of keep making these movies.

[1299] And so how I do it is I'll make a movie.

[1300] And then in between, I will do everything in all I can to help support all these projects in my company.

[1301] Now, I'm lucky enough, and we've done just great work.

[1302] The company has so much talent right now.

[1303] My creators, my execs, they're bringing me things that make me feel like I get to be the audience.

[1304] So they're hearing the pitches.

[1305] You're not hearing a bunch of random pitches, I'm imagining.

[1306] No. My company is coming to me and saying, okay, we got this one.

[1307] All right, right, right.

[1308] Ready to show you this.

[1309] And then they show it to me, and they've just been showing me some really golden, developed things with just some amazing talent.

[1310] So then it becomes about, okay, so what's the plan?

[1311] How do we do this?

[1312] Is there any reason the packaging for it isn't glossy enough or viable enough or whatever?

[1313] And then when it comes to promoting things, I can sort of come out.

[1314] and say, by the way, Monkey Paul, that means Jordan Peel approved.

[1315] Like, yes, my shit.

[1316] But it's sort of important that I've got a lopsided credit, you know.

[1317] Oh, yeah.

[1318] So it's important that I don't kind of go around and go, oh, hey, put a giant, you know, lobster in that one, man. And then I leave because that lobster will be in there.

[1319] And I'll be like, I said what?

[1320] Okay.

[1321] No, but yeah, you have to be kind of smart about it.

[1322] But the beauty is we've grown to this point where I'm so damn impressed by the company.

[1323] I have to imagine, you motherfuckers went out and got this thing that's this good and took it to this point, and now I get to be involved at this stage?

[1324] Yes.

[1325] That is such a good feeling, and it's a feeling that goes back to these moments when I was in my low, 2005, which probably wasn't that low anyway.

[1326] You had a car.

[1327] I knew the people who are producing are the ones who are dictating the comedy here.

[1328] Yeah.

[1329] And so that's kind of where I have to be.

[1330] I want to get my voice after all of that to be at this situation where you can realize that one of your favorite projects in the world is in your company.

[1331] It's something you're doing.

[1332] Yeah, that's great.

[1333] That's radical.

[1334] I'm so happy for you.

[1335] Thank you.

[1336] Okay.

[1337] What we learned is we're identical.

[1338] We're twins.

[1339] I also had a crush on Chelsea at some point.

[1340] Well, who hasn't?

[1341] That's probably true.

[1342] That's not a very defining character.

[1343] It's very, it's quite common.

[1344] I get that all the time.

[1345] What a fox.

[1346] Bill and I, the science guy, hit on her in front of me once.

[1347] Oh, wow.

[1348] This was 10 years ago.

[1349] Were you flattered or threatened?

[1350] A little, a Columet.

[1351] I knew I had a good story for a podcast someday.

[1352] There you go.

[1353] But, no, it was pretty funny.

[1354] We've had him on.

[1355] I don't know.

[1356] He has an energy.

[1357] It's possible that I'm slandering him, and he wasn't doing that.

[1358] No. Let's chalk it up to my insecurity.

[1359] I'm trying to think in front of me. It happens nonstop.

[1360] To my wife, like all of a sudden, she got a package and a letter from Bono.

[1361] I'm like, what's this guy mailed?

[1362] What's his angle?

[1363] What are you fucking talking about?

[1364] She's got something from the mail for Bono.

[1365] It's with her without you.

[1366] It's a beautiful day, but not as beautiful as you.

[1367] Love Bono.

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] It is.

[1370] It's funny.

[1371] There's something about the older guy that's kind of threatening.

[1372] Bill Nye.

[1373] He might threaten me. I mean, that guy knows way more about science than we do.

[1374] You know he's a freak too.

[1375] Oh, he is.

[1376] Everyone knows.

[1377] It would be exploding in bad.

[1378] The science people are the freaks.

[1379] All right.

[1380] Well, this has been an absolute pleasure.

[1381] I want everybody.

[1382] I'm going to be watching it with my kids.

[1383] Wendell and Wilde on Netflix, which will be out right now when you're hearing this.

[1384] And then check out on Spotify.

[1385] Ding, ding, ding.

[1386] Quiet part loud.

[1387] Interesting scripted horror, political.

[1388] everything podcast.

[1389] It's so cool.

[1390] You love it.

[1391] I love it.

[1392] Although as we've learned, you have nothing to compare it.

[1393] It's true.

[1394] So this is, you know, I have just my imagination, but if this is your only podcast, yes, and you're looking to branch out.

[1395] There it go.

[1396] This would be the one.

[1397] Please check out Quiet Part Loud.

[1398] Such a pleasure.

[1399] I'm so glad.

[1400] We've been wanting you forever.

[1401] It was everything I'd hoped it would be.

[1402] And I wish you well on all things.

[1403] Thank you.

[1404] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my My soulmate Monica Padman.

[1405] Okay, so I'm sorry because sometimes life happens.

[1406] Sometimes life intervenes.

[1407] Best laid plans, you know?

[1408] This was my plan.

[1409] I got the episode this morning.

[1410] Great.

[1411] I had to be here at 9 to record ads with Liz.

[1412] Oh, I missed that whole thing.

[1413] You were here recording at 9 a .m.?

[1414] Yes.

[1415] Oh, wow.

[1416] So I did that.

[1417] So I was allotting 9 .30 to 11.

[1418] to listen for facts.

[1419] Right.

[1420] 20 minute leeway.

[1421] I'm out there, I start.

[1422] I have my headphones in.

[1423] I'm about 16 minutes in.

[1424] Mm -hmm.

[1425] And then the kids, well, Delta comes out.

[1426] She's first on the scene.

[1427] Yeah.

[1428] She looks really cute.

[1429] Okay.

[1430] Was any reason in particular or just natural?

[1431] Yeah.

[1432] Really cute shorts and a sweater.

[1433] Really?

[1434] A lacklectic dresser.

[1435] She'll just throw anything.

[1436] She has great style.

[1437] Well, yeah, she does.

[1438] Okay, great.

[1439] I think she is very...

[1440] She's getting lucky.

[1441] I mean, I don't think it's intentional.

[1442] She's just like throwing the most mixed matched items together.

[1443] I think it's just a testament to her.

[1444] It's not.

[1445] Style is an expression of your insides.

[1446] Uh -huh.

[1447] So if you're doing that accurately, you'll look good.

[1448] That makes sense.

[1449] She'll have like cheetah print shorts on.

[1450] Yeah.

[1451] And an old silk.

[1452] Michigan baseball jacket.

[1453] I love that.

[1454] Right.

[1455] Something completely incongruous with that.

[1456] That's good style, though.

[1457] Like, I don't want to alienate anyone.

[1458] Right.

[1459] But that's like looking and putting things together that might not go, but then do end up going.

[1460] Yeah.

[1461] This is fashion.

[1462] I feel like this is, I'm a little liberal with the things I put together.

[1463] Uh -huh.

[1464] Yeah.

[1465] A little dash of hip -hop.

[1466] Then that's not that.

[1467] What is this?

[1468] You do a mix.

[1469] I'm a mix.

[1470] And I do a mix, too.

[1471] Yeah.

[1472] Well, you're full -fledged.

[1473] Like, you're going to a fashion shoot every day I see you.

[1474] Not today.

[1475] No, today you fucking phoned it right in.

[1476] But that's good for the holidays.

[1477] Stuffy season.

[1478] I'm allowed to wear whatever I want.

[1479] I do it all.

[1480] You do it all.

[1481] So anyway, she came outside with her hands outstretched to hug me. Uh -huh.

[1482] So, you know, hugged her for a long time.

[1483] Yeah, we chatted, chit -chatted.

[1484] What was the topics?

[1485] Oh, so many.

[1486] Okay.

[1487] I forget all.

[1488] Drawing she had made.

[1489] Did she show you her little mix of characters she was giving away this morning?

[1490] No. Okay.

[1491] She got all these little, there's no through line.

[1492] There's like all these little creatures she's drawn.

[1493] Some of them are just big eyeballs.

[1494] Oh, yeah.

[1495] She told me she was working on eyes.

[1496] Yeah.

[1497] So one creature is just like an eyeball with legs and arms.

[1498] It's really cute.

[1499] Yeah, that was the one I picked.

[1500] Oh, I want that.

[1501] Oh, shit.

[1502] I didn't mean to.

[1503] Anyway, so we were chit -chatting and we're outside, it's sunny, it's a great environment, soaking in the vitamin D. They're putting grass down.

[1504] That's exciting.

[1505] The grass had not arrived yet.

[1506] Okay.

[1507] But there are a lot of people outside working on the yard.

[1508] And at one point she looked over and she said, I'm going to, I want to offer them some water.

[1509] I said that's so nice.

[1510] You're the nicest.

[1511] Again, you're just kind of born like good, some people.

[1512] I don't know.

[1513] I don't know.

[1514] I mean, she might be born good, but that's obviously passed down from Kristen.

[1515] Well, I just think it's that those two are identical and that's how their brains work.

[1516] Like, she goes to Target and her first thought is like, I got to buy Evie something.

[1517] I got to buy Lincoln something.

[1518] I know.

[1519] I think it's interesting that you think that's just because their brains, not because of what was nurtured.

[1520] Well, I only say that because that's not Lincoln's impulse.

[1521] She does not go to Target and think of who she needs to buy shit for.

[1522] Yeah.

[1523] And she doesn't think I need to go give everyone waters.

[1524] Just like I don't think of it.

[1525] say it i go oh duh that's what i should do right i just don't think of it yeah i don't know i still think nurture as well yeah yeah i'm it's a combo i'm sure yeah i'm not dying on this hill what do i know this is my guess i don't know anything yeah there's these things like this whole thing with the piano like oh duh right she's genetically christen she has and i now see i think you could get lofty about kids practicing i actually think it's part of an ism which is great which is when she's practicing the piano, her brain has the mathematics of what the song should sound like, as does Kristen's.

[1526] Like yours and I is a little different.

[1527] And for her, it's almost like an OCD thing.

[1528] Like she knows the pitch.

[1529] She knows the sound.

[1530] And she's just obsessively has to get the pattern right.

[1531] And it's like Kristen mimicking things when she's watching TV.

[1532] She has to be able to make that sound to repeat it.

[1533] And now I'm seeing, oh, so Delta is practicing nonstop.

[1534] but it's really because it's so discomforting to her for the notes to not be right.

[1535] And she can hear it so crystal clear in her head just as a gift.

[1536] And so she just over and over and over again wants to replicate the sound she has in her head.

[1537] Yeah.

[1538] It's just a very genetic, I don't know, I've just witnessed the same process happened with Kristen.

[1539] And none of us have encouraged her to practice.

[1540] None of us have been.

[1541] There's nothing being said.

[1542] She's just totally self -starting on this compulsory.

[1543] Yeah, it's interesting, though, because I wonder if it's related to a musical brain or related to, because we were just talking about this before we started recording, she's memorizing how to do it.

[1544] Mm -hmm.

[1545] Yeah.

[1546] She's memorizing, I put a finger on this and then this and this.

[1547] It's not C, A, B, it's coming from memory.

[1548] Well, no. Have you watched her consult her?

[1549] She's not reading musical notes, but she has the clef.

[1550] And it's written.

[1551] Yeah, I know.

[1552] And then it's marked on the...

[1553] And she references it, which shocks me. Like, when she was playing for me the other night, she gets to a part and she can't, she tries like nine times to get the right note.

[1554] Yeah.

[1555] And then she'll go to the page.

[1556] Yeah.

[1557] And then come back and play it.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] I guess so far, the way she's learning, the way she's being taught, it's not the way I was taught piano at all.

[1560] Right.

[1561] Like, it was trying to cite read and jump around.

[1562] And like, I couldn't do that.

[1563] But I wonder when I was watching her do it, I was like, I wonder if I had been taught that way because that to me feels like a different part of the brain.

[1564] To me, it seems really correct to what they've done, which is the guy came and taught her three songs she already knows.

[1565] So to empower her to be able to play a song that she only has in her head.

[1566] Yeah.

[1567] And to make that fun and give you a sense of competency and effectiveness.

[1568] What a way to start, as opposed to starting with this thing that's like not.

[1569] rewarding it's not like you play a song at the end of learning the sheet music right for a while you're not going to be able to let's get you having fun being able to play these songs that are in your head and then we'll learn along the way it seems better i think so yeah well we'll verdicts still out obviously anyways well and also because like when they teach you or used to teach you or maybe just the type of teacher who knows it's like the way you place your hands it's very technical Yeah, there's a big physical component.

[1570] Yeah, like, you can't, like, just be using your fingers to plunk around, but she was doing that.

[1571] Yeah.

[1572] Which I think is a way to get you in to then be able to do this other.

[1573] Also, her hands are way too small to do it any other way.

[1574] That's what I tell her.

[1575] I said, you know, today's the hardest it'll ever be for you to play piano.

[1576] It's going to be easier tomorrow.

[1577] Your hands are going to be just a micron bigger.

[1578] And as they get bigger, it's going to be easier and easier.

[1579] teeny tiny.

[1580] So this is the hardest it'll be.

[1581] And look how much you.

[1582] You're enjoying it.

[1583] Any of facts.

[1584] Well, no. So she came outside and then Lincoln came outside.

[1585] And then I thought, it's not going to happen.

[1586] I'm just going to spend time with them.

[1587] So we just hung out.

[1588] Well, if I have my choice between you being well -equipped with facts or the three of you having a wonderful day together, I've certainly picked the latter.

[1589] Yeah.

[1590] A couple times I put my headphones in my ear and then I thought about saying, you know, I have to finish this.

[1591] But then I didn't, I didn't want to.

[1592] Yeah, good for you.

[1593] I mean, yeah.

[1594] It is the holidays.

[1595] It's not that.

[1596] I just felt.

[1597] I'm just trying to build in some more.

[1598] Scared?

[1599] I just help you, like, build your case even more.

[1600] No, that's bad.

[1601] That would be me being like, I don't need to work.

[1602] It wasn't that.

[1603] No, I mean, it's the holiday.

[1604] It's the time to be with.

[1605] little ones and be present.

[1606] It's the holidays.

[1607] Oh, okay.

[1608] That's, you know, they're not in school.

[1609] Exactly.

[1610] I don't really get to spend that kind of time with them anymore unless I'm taking them to like a store.

[1611] I have to take them to stores to get their love.

[1612] Spend money now on them.

[1613] Yeah.

[1614] Yeah.

[1615] So it was a rare opportunity and I took it.

[1616] School's got a rich hand.

[1617] I think it's cool for them.

[1618] Like, can we go to paper source?

[1619] I was like, yes.

[1620] Yeah, I had a quote rich uncle, but he never took me shopping.

[1621] Oh, really?

[1622] Mm -hmm.

[1623] Yeah.

[1624] I like, taking them shopping.

[1625] Anyway, and then the grass started arriving.

[1626] Then we all got very interested in the grass.

[1627] Yeah.

[1628] It's a very visually stimulating act.

[1629] Because they're just, they do it so fast, right?

[1630] I know.

[1631] You're watching it transform.

[1632] It's very cool.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] Anyway, so I don't have any facts is all to say, and I'm sorry to you, and I'm sorry to the listeners.

[1635] My guess is there aren't going to be that many in this to begin with.

[1636] Okay.

[1637] Very personal stories.

[1638] No. No big factual claims that I remember.

[1639] Correct.

[1640] I'd like to start by saying that was one of my favorite interviews of the year.

[1641] It was really lovely.

[1642] It was.

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] Yeah, I like him so.

[1645] I mean, I've always liked him.

[1646] I've been a huge fan.

[1647] We've been trying to get him forever.

[1648] Yeah.

[1649] And he lived up.

[1650] Yeah.

[1651] I like when there's a real life moment that happens where trust is gained and things are shared.

[1652] Yeah.

[1653] It's very special.

[1654] Yeah.

[1655] Doesn't happen every time.

[1656] I don't know what time.

[1657] One in eight it happens where you leave and you think, oh, it's like we were in group therapy together.

[1658] And that was that feeling from this one.

[1659] Yeah.

[1660] Yeah, he got just very open and trusting and lovely.

[1661] Yeah.

[1662] And I felt very honored and privileged to be a part of having his trust.

[1663] Yes.

[1664] Yeah.

[1665] That's a great feeling.

[1666] It is.

[1667] Okay.

[1668] Enough about him.

[1669] I watched Stutz last night.

[1670] What did you think?

[1671] I think it's incredible.

[1672] It's incredible.

[1673] So Stutz is the documentary that Jonah Hill made about his therapist.

[1674] So I became aware of Stutz because Mark Maren had interviewed four or five people that all referenced Stutz.

[1675] Most importantly, Hank Azaria, who does an perfect impersonation of Phil Stutz.

[1676] And so in Hank Azaria's episode, he's saying what Phil would say to him and go, oh, my, Jesus Christ.

[1677] Listen, if a friend was telling you this story, you'd want to fucking kill yourself.

[1678] He did that when he was on here?

[1679] No, no, when he was on Mark Marin.

[1680] Oh, got it.

[1681] We also had hang on.

[1682] So I thought you meant here.

[1683] Yeah, no, no, he, he on Marin did an impersonation of Stutz.

[1684] And it was so funny and interesting that Marin decided to interview Phil Stutz about eight, nine years ago, maybe 10 years ago.

[1685] And I listened to that episode, and that's by far my favorite episode I've ever.

[1686] heard of Mark Marin because Phil's so incredible in a totally different side of him not at all what this Jonah doc was we didn't even learn in the Jonah doc but you know he was working in the for real hardcore 60s mental asylums in New York like he was dealing with criminals psychopathy everything like he was in the trenches yeah before he was in this private program because we're having him on dangles Easter egg so I was crazy interested in Phil so I was crazy interested in Phil that's prior to Jonah making this documentary.

[1687] Yeah.

[1688] And then, and it is funny because I happened to be in a situation where I'd put it on somewhere and other people were like, oh my God, why do you make a, uh, I saw some cynicism about it.

[1689] Okay.

[1690] Like, why do you make a doc about his therapist?

[1691] Like, they were implying it was self -indulgent or something.

[1692] But then I had to back them up and go, no, no, this guy, Phil is like a legendary human who's like, deserves a documentary.

[1693] Like, forget Joan.

[1694] get Jonah out of it.

[1695] But, of course, thank God Jonah's involved in it because it's such an intimate.

[1696] It's so personal and therapy is personal.

[1697] I'm so impressed with Jonah's willingness to go full, what do they call that?

[1698] Open the kimono.

[1699] Open kimono.

[1700] Open, yeah.

[1701] Full open kimono.

[1702] So impressive.

[1703] Yeah.

[1704] I mean, he is talking about stuff that he is deeply embarrassed and ashamed by.

[1705] Yeah, it's beautiful.

[1706] That's even, it's really incredible for finding the belief that that version of themselves is actually the most attractive.

[1707] And it is.

[1708] Yeah.

[1709] I think everyone should watch it.

[1710] It's hard.

[1711] I feel like it's a hard movie to talk about because you put yourself there.

[1712] And so you get taken on the ride.

[1713] Talk about getting sucked into something.

[1714] Like, yes, you feel like you're in those.

[1715] Like the editing was beautiful.

[1716] The pauses, the space.

[1717] Yeah.

[1718] The tension building, the awkwardness, all those things were left in.

[1719] And it's really powerful.

[1720] It's trippy.

[1721] Did you find that it was trippy?

[1722] Like when they're chasing down an emotion between the two of them and they're chasing down the reality of what they're experiencing, you can watch them choose to not lie in that moment or choose to not redirect.

[1723] Yeah.

[1724] You're going down the tunnel with them.

[1725] Yeah.

[1726] And then in them doing that, it opens up yet a new dynamic between them.

[1727] And he's having Jonah close his eyes.

[1728] Were you closing your eyes and letting him guide you?

[1729] I wanted to rewatch and do that.

[1730] Yeah.

[1731] But I wanted to see, I wanted to see what was happening.

[1732] I did it.

[1733] Mm -hmm.

[1734] And I got to say in general, I'm not really a great candidate for that kind of stuff.

[1735] I put it in the hypnotism category.

[1736] I'm not very susceptible.

[1737] My guard's up too much.

[1738] I don't trust somebody to take my brain on a walk.

[1739] I think why the pitch I'd make for people, the reason they should watch it is, I think psychology is, in general, a bit too abstract for most people.

[1740] I find it abstract a lot of times.

[1741] It doesn't feel action -oriented enough.

[1742] I think me too coming from AA, which is like, here are 12 steps, start working them in order, make this list, apologize to these people, say this prayer.

[1743] Therapy's a little bit like, what?

[1744] We're just going to chat, and one day I'm going to feel relief from all this, you know?

[1745] So Phil's particular approach is very, very action -oriented.

[1746] It's very concrete and literal and steps and tools.

[1747] Yeah.

[1748] And they're really powerful.

[1749] Very.

[1750] I thought of you several times while watching it.

[1751] What part?

[1752] There were just some things about your shadow and confronting your shadow and nurturing your shadow.

[1753] yeah what your shadow says to you yes i guess i was hoping in my most wishful thinking like oh i i have a hunch and i hope this is really talking to monica right now yeah for sure i mean everything that he said did he breaks down kind of the psyche and what's holding you down and how you're looking at yourself and how to approach those things to aid you instead of pull you apart.

[1754] But also, one thing that I really liked about it is, I guess, one of his tenants is just that life has three things and you're not getting around it.

[1755] You are not getting around pain, uncertainty, and...

[1756] Nonstop work.

[1757] Constant work.

[1758] Constant work.

[1759] Yeah.

[1760] Yeah.

[1761] Pain uncertainty and constant work.

[1762] Yes.

[1763] That's reality.

[1764] I also loved his message about the voice is telling you you can't.

[1765] It's telling you it's impossible and that one's only, oh, that's the part I was actually really thinking of you, but it was right before that.

[1766] But one can only move forward.

[1767] Forget that you're going to fail.

[1768] Forget that it's not perfect.

[1769] Forget that all those things, you're either arrested by that and move nowhere, or you just valiantly keep stepping forward one foot in front or the other, and you move through all that uncertainty.

[1770] And you thought of me in that way for relationships, you mean?

[1771] Yeah.

[1772] Like there was a part where he said, he's talking about the pyramid, right?

[1773] He lays out this pyramid, and it's great.

[1774] And there's three strata of the pyramid.

[1775] The most important one is your relationship with your body.

[1776] And that's the thing that you should first get in touch with, and that will have miraculous effects on you right away.

[1777] So that's your exercise, your diet, your relationship with your body.

[1778] The next one is relationship with people.

[1779] And he's talking about the power of that people pull you back into yourself, that you start fading away as you get older and you start separating.

[1780] He said depression is that.

[1781] It's like, you're not ending relationships.

[1782] He said, I want to point out, you're not ending, you're not severing relationships.

[1783] But they're just getting further away from you on the horizon.

[1784] Yeah.

[1785] And that the act of being with people has a power that is more important than whether you want to go to lunch with the person.

[1786] Like, that was the example he used.

[1787] Like, you don't want to go to lunch with this person.

[1788] Forget that person.

[1789] Yeah.

[1790] It's for you to get pulled back into community and culture and society and connection.

[1791] Yeah.

[1792] And then the final tip of the pyramid is your relationship with yourself.

[1793] Yes.

[1794] So I was just thinking about that imperfect options are better than no options, you know?

[1795] Oh, you mean romantically?

[1796] Yeah.

[1797] And, you know, and, you know, and, you know, it could even be friendship -wise, but yeah, romantically.

[1798] Yeah, for sure.

[1799] No, I mean, I thought that, too, I juxtapose that onto those relationships.

[1800] But I also, in general, feel I have very strong and many relationships with people, not romantic ones, obviously, but I am in kind of constant connection with people.

[1801] You are, for sure.

[1802] So in some ways, I think that makes it.

[1803] can make it harder for me to want a romantic relationship.

[1804] Yeah, because you're not lonely.

[1805] I don't need one for the connection.

[1806] I have a ton of connection in my life.

[1807] So that part's not lacking.

[1808] Other pieces are lacking that are.

[1809] But again, you don't have any insecurities surrounding becoming friends with people.

[1810] You're very confident.

[1811] Your shadow's never in the same room with you when you're considering asking someone to go get drinks.

[1812] That's another female.

[1813] Yeah, yeah.

[1814] But your shadow is like enormous as soon as it's going to be with the opposite sex.

[1815] And then the shadow is going to say a lot of stuff that makes a lot of sense.

[1816] Yeah.

[1817] The shadow's smart.

[1818] It's you.

[1819] Yeah.

[1820] So it's going to make a compelling, interesting argument for why you're right to not try.

[1821] No, for sure.

[1822] I think that's all accurate.

[1823] I just don't think on the pyramid, it's not romantic relationships.

[1824] It's relationships with people.

[1825] So I do think my - But it's goals.

[1826] The overarching goal is to not be driven by your shadow.

[1827] Oh, yeah.

[1828] To nurture your shadow and stop listening to your shadow.

[1829] Yeah.

[1830] And so I'm just saying the place I see shadow in your life make itself most present is romantically.

[1831] So that's the thing, of course, I'm thinking of.

[1832] Yeah.

[1833] Yeah.

[1834] I have to rewatch it.

[1835] I definitely want to rewatch it.

[1836] I want to rewatch it, too.

[1837] And.

[1838] Maybe I'll with my eyes open this time.

[1839] Although it was so euphoric to go.

[1840] Yeah, I think it's good to do, like, follow his lead.

[1841] I like him a lot.

[1842] I really like that, yeah.

[1843] And you know what's so funny, it's like so obvious, too, because the version of Jonah that he was winning Academy Awards and trying to heal everything with that, I've known him since before he was in 40 -year -old Virgin.

[1844] So I've seen all the versions of him.

[1845] And without question, the most beautiful, appealing, attractive...

[1846] A hundred percent.

[1847] Is the one he literally was most afraid to show.

[1848] Yeah.

[1849] It was so...

[1850] It was crazy when I was watching it because he was being so vulnerable and, you know, he was showing an image of him from a long time ago that he is most ashamed to present to the world.

[1851] Yeah.

[1852] And, and I was just, I was like, he's so attractive.

[1853] Not the 15 year old, but like, I mean, because a 15 year old shouldn't be attractive.

[1854] But the whole thing, everything about what he was saying, I was just like, this person is so magnetic in a piece.

[1855] healing and you're drawn into that person and he wouldn't be that person if he hadn't had all of the stuff before it yeah so I liked that um do you want to date him after that I don't think he's single I mean just but did you feel yourself thinking like oh I would like to date him um yes yeah he seems like a person that I mean I don't know him yes I think he's um I think you need a lot going on in a partner and i'm trying to i'm trying to dismantle that i think that too and i've thought that for a long time but i'm trying to change that narrative but of course when i watched that i was like oh my god i'm so attracted to this guy is complicated yeah yeah but i because i like thinkers sometimes i think that comes with that but it doesn't have to no yeah there's some great thinkers that don't have a lot of yeah i don't know um okay um easter egg we have a new shirt coming out we have a sweat shirt coming out pretty soon seasonal seasonal or once a year drop yep limited edition hopefully we're going to try yeah we're going to try it's happening okay uh limited edition.

[1856] What do they call it the reality force field or whatever?

[1857] It was Elon and all them have Steve Jobs.

[1858] I don't know.

[1859] It's that.

[1860] They call like the virtual reality bubble or something.

[1861] It's that Steve Jobs lived in a bubble of his own reality.

[1862] And then everyone just had to get in the bubble.

[1863] It's like a thing they say about some of these tech visionaries.

[1864] They have to, they have a different reality and they have to get people to buy into the reality to execute this impossible thing.

[1865] so we're we're joining your reality bubble yeah but it's a hand drawing it's a it's a new it's a new drawing it's a new drawing by dax yeah on the sweatshirt limited edition and i was scared you suggested all the elements and i was like i don't think i can pull that off but your belief in me i didn't listen to my shadow i listened to my beam of light monica padman and um i give it a give it a seven out of ten it's pretty it's a ten it's so good anyway so be ready to jump on that because these things do sell out pretty quick also this one there's a million dollars yeah exactly so just get ready save up uh also i think today's monday i think my gift guide starts dropping today oh you just paint yourself into a corner i love it two corners two corners you got to deliver these shirts and you got to have a gift guide i don't see why the shirts are you going to put the shirt on the gift guide is a real opportunity for vertical integration because you have too much integrity i don't have i'm not worried about these sweatshirts they're going to go very quick okay and then people will be mad that they're like sold out yep it's a great thing to do it like angers most people yeah it makes a few people happy that's the sweet spot like the taylor swift tickets my god it's contian um anyway so be ready for that be ready for my gift guide be ready for christmas It's like knocking at your back door.

[1866] It is.

[1867] We're close Thanksgiving.

[1868] At this point, all you've seen over the last three days is Christmas commercials.

[1869] You're noticing there's lights up.

[1870] If you drive by my house, you'll see some decorative colored lights.

[1871] Yeah, it's time for music, all that good old.

[1872] Eggnog, gang six pounds, snuggles, fires, coitus.

[1873] Fun.

[1874] Tis the season.

[1875] Tis, tis, tis.

[1876] Well, I love you.

[1877] Love you.

[1878] And I loved Jordan Peel.

[1879] Me too.

[1880] What a sweet, genuine, talented person.

[1881] Yeah.

[1882] He has all the things.

[1883] He has all things.

[1884] You marry him too.

[1885] I'll marry him all.

[1886] Yeah.

[1887] Line him up.

[1888] Love you.

[1889] Love you.

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