#1988 - James Reed

[0] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

[1] The Joe Rogan Experience.

[2] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[3] How are you, sir?

[4] That's going on, man. What incredible piece of work you put together.

[5] I mean, that was, I'm so impressed, and I loved it so much.

[6] I mean, I don't even know where to begin.

[7] Well, I'm very pleased you liked it.

[8] You tell me, where do you want to begin?

[9] Where did it?

[10] How did it start?

[11] Like, how long did it take, first of all, to get embedded to the point where they allowed you to be around them like that?

[12] Okay, so, I mean...

[13] We should tell her, but it's a chimp empire.

[14] It's chimp empire, yeah.

[15] So a four -part series chronic chronicling this unusual period in the Ngogo chimpanzees lives, right?

[16] So we are very, very lucky.

[17] Basically, there's a scientific project out there.

[18] there that's been working and go -go for almost 30 years now.

[19] So scientists, when they first arrived, the chimpanzees were not habituated to humans at all.

[20] So they kind of came knowing there was a big group of chimps out there, but they didn't know anything about how many they were or who they were.

[21] And they had to go through this process of habituation, which basically means sort of following them around and getting them used to humans observing them.

[22] So in those early days, the chimps would just run off.

[23] They'd have total fear for humans.

[24] So they weren't even able to see them, let alone study them.

[25] But they gradually overcame that fear and to the point where the scientists can just arrive with their notebooks and gently follow them around kind of within the group every day.

[26] So after years of doing that, it makes it possible for a film crew to come in and kind of literally walk in there footsteps so so that that process of actually being accepted into the chimpanzees group was sort of we had this we had this previous scientific project that enabled us to do that and in terms of for the for the series um we had like 400 filming days we knew that we wanted to be sort of observing them from in detail and from sort of within the group and yeah we were We were able to do that with a great crew, lightweight equipment, and sort of followed them around constantly for about 400 days.

[27] Wow.

[28] I mean, the footage you guys acquired, it's really amazing.

[29] I've never seen anything like it.

[30] It's like a chimp was carrying around a camera.

[31] I mean, was there any moment where they interacted with you guys, where you thought, like, maybe you were threatened or in danger?

[32] you know there's if you're filming lines or something from a from a sort of safari vehicle you film them with a with a long lens and you're kind of spying on them from a distance so they they might sort of clock that you're in a car from a long way away but you're you're observing them and you're you're kind of not part of it you're you're looking in from the outside with chimps partly because of the habitat they live in right it's it's a dense rainforest so if you were 50 meters away you can't see anything so you need to be close to the chimps to observe and film them and and also wouldn't be a good idea to try and creep around and hide from them they they wouldn't like that so you sort of you you peacefully gently kind of make your presence known and they sort of they acknowledge you when you turn up they certainly sort of checking you out but then they go about their daily business and it is It's incredible how little interaction they have and how little that they sort of ever, ever even come close to interacting with you.

[33] Wow.

[34] But what about if you have food or something that they want?

[35] Do they get curious about things like that?

[36] You know, they're very careful there, and that the scientists for years have sort of made sure that, you know, the strict rules that you can't take, you take food in, but it's in concealed content.

[37] you don't eat in front of the chimps.

[38] That's exactly the sort of thing that could cause a situation if there was some association with food or something that you had that they wanted.

[39] So that's really carefully managed.

[40] And they don't associate you with food and they just treat you as a sort of passive observer.

[41] Having said that, you know, you're right in there and, you know, they could be just sitting around peacefully sort of playing or grooming each other or they could be doing something quite aggressive and they could be fighting or they could be patrolling for another group or hunting and then even though none of it is sort of targeted at you they are behaving in in a way that can be quite intimidating around you was what was I mean I think the most disturbing thing to me with chimps is well there's two things one that they murder each other but two the hunting of the monkeys watching them hunt and kill and eat monkeys is so weird for i mean i think was david attenborough the first one to capture that on film i don't know whether he was the first one actually i think jane goodall back in the day when she was doing the gum well she still has the gombe chimpsite but i think she and maybe a Nat Geo team I think they sort of documented it for the first time and at that point nobody knew this this happened and then I think on a David Attenborough project it was documented as well but in Ngogo you know they're the biggest group ever known and they are very strong and powerful group and there's a lot of males and it is often the males that are involved in the hunting and they have taken hunting monkeys to a to another level was that what is that like to witness live because primates eating primates I don't know why but it's just it it doesn't feel right visceral reactions I think yeah it feels you know because you kind of group you group primates together yeah and we're sort of separate in a way that's how how you think of them anyway.

[42] And I think also you spend so much, you know, if you're interested in chimps or you spend time around them, you can't, you're constantly making connections between you and them.

[43] So you're feeling even though it's kind of a one way thing, you're feeling those similarities all the time.

[44] And then you, but then you see how they behave to other primates and it's quite, it's shocking.

[45] You can't believe that as sophisticated as they are and how connected you feel to them you know they they they don't feel that sort of level of compassion or empathy for other primates at all and they are yeah they they hunt them regularly yeah how many did you witness them kill it was it was quite a lot i mean you know we've it's a completely sort of true authentic story that we documented so so everything in there is is what happened and in the order that it happened.

[46] But obviously, we were there for 400 days, so there's quite a lot of things that we filmed that didn't make it in.

[47] Now, we didn't keep anything back that we thought was relevant to the story, but there are sometimes other examples or other hunts.

[48] Hunts is a really good example.

[49] You know, we didn't put in the series every time they hunted a monkey because it would be a lot of hunting monkeys.

[50] We saw it quite a lot.

[51] You know, I remember on the second, and shoot but it was the first time the new camera crew had come out and I was with one of the camera women Lauren and she was really experienced women in filming in hostile and remote locations but it never filmed chimps before and wasn't really used to the environment and on our first day out they hunted a big black and white colobus monkey and you know I mean it's everything that goes along with it it's the sort of the cooperation the the teamwork um you know there's a tension in in the air when you know that they're going to hunt they've decided to hunt but it's not on yet and they're sort of moving around the forest trying to get in a in a position where they can successfully catch this monkey but then once they go for it and then they're just chasing it and it and it's chaos and you know they they are organized in a way they know exactly what they're doing but you're sort of running around after it and you quite often don't know don't know exactly what's happening where's the monkey where are the chimps and she she was just like where am i like what what have i got myself into but she was absolutely amazing because she sort of you know held the shots and a lot of what she filmed that day is is in the series actually but i don't know the energy when you're there and you're watching it the energy of the whole thing takes over and you know maybe this isn't a good thing but i think when you have seen it quite a few times and you accept it as part of the the natural relationship between these two species you do become slightly desensitized to it and yeah i remember first time i saw it being being very shocked but once you've seen it quite a lot and you know it's a natural part of their lives you you don't you don't feel the same way about it actually is that their preferred food do you think well they they're mainly fruit eaters ripe fruit specialists so you know their territory is is filled with fruiting trees and those trees fruit at different times and at different cycles and they have this incredible knowledge of of all the trees that are in their territory and and they have a good idea about when they're going to come into fruit as well.

[52] So they're always moving around this vast territory and sort of checking out what's in fruit and what isn't.

[53] And they'll know that something's not quite right yet, but that'll stay there and they'll come back and they'll feed off that tree in the days immediately after.

[54] So that's really, that's, they have to survive, they depend on fruit.

[55] monkeys seem to provide a sort of a different purpose in the chimpanzee community they're definitely valuable from a nutritional point of view but there seems to be other things going on as to why they hunt and you know I'm going to use some of the wrong terms here that scientists probably wouldn't wouldn't support but they do seem to enjoy it It does seem to provide some sort of cooperative function.

[56] You know, it's not sport, but at the same time, you know, it's not purely for survival.

[57] It's the something else there.

[58] And I think in, you know, when you watch them share meat after they've hunted a monkey, that's when some of its sort of function becomes clear, because who catches the monkey and then who, who, gets a share of that becomes a really political business and and and that feels you know from from our perspective watching it that suddenly it all sort of fell into place a little bit because who gets meet and who doesn't has a sort of um it's very political yeah it seemed like that in the documentary where would in particularly uh when the female with the baby got some and the one male that didn't get very upset and attacked her yeah that's that that's a kind of a classic example of it or yeah you know they're all there trying to get a piece of meat because they want to but um it it risks upsetting other chimps because there's only so much meat there's only so much a lot of chimps yeah and there's sort of the strongest alliances are being sort of served in that situation so sometimes you know chimps get a scrap here or there in that particular instant she she made it away away with quite big share of the monkey and i think you know i wasn't there filming that particular moment but i remember the the crew saying when they came back it did feel like that that's trouble actually good good for you for getting a share but actually that's you're going to get into trouble somehow but because, you know, whether she was aware that there was somebody who's, you know, a high -ranking male was being excluded at the same time.

[59] So there was this tension between the males and then this was further complicated by a female getting a share and then he just blew his lid.

[60] It's just so fascinating to watch the communication and just the politics that are involved and all the negotiations.

[61] and the way they treat each other.

[62] Was that surprising to you that it was so complex?

[63] Yes.

[64] I mean, I've worked with chimps before.

[65] You know, I'm not a chimps scientist.

[66] You know, I'm not an expert in that sense.

[67] But I have, you know, I've done a film myself a few years earlier on the Ngogo Chimps.

[68] And I also worked on another one years previously.

[69] so some of that I knew and in part that was why we made the series that we knew there was going to be this level of complexity but we'd never and I don't think anyone has ever committed that much sort of filming resource and dedication to that intense of a period so we sort of seemed to be able to record it at a level of detail that I hadn't seen before and I don't think anybody else has and that so that did surprise us yeah and it surprised me personally it's the sense of awareness like you know as far as we know that there's quite limited vocal communication with chimps you know they make sort of they make food grunts which tells other chimps that they're enjoying some food they make pant grunts which are a sort of oh oh oh this this noise that they make to each other which is a signal of submission and they have various calls but as far as we know there's there's not a huge amount of complexity in that there's not there's not a lot of language but the amazing thing is that there seems to be some other level of communication going on that they somehow know what each other are about to do or in some circumstances they don't and they're surprised and it causes conflict.

[70] But I think about particularly when you watch chimps go on patrol, right?

[71] They patrol their borders, the borders of their territory.

[72] And they do that in silence.

[73] And they do that for a reason because they don't want anybody outside their territory to know where they are.

[74] But how to coordinate that when they're not making any noise to each other at all.

[75] They're looking at each other.

[76] and they appear to be reading each other's intentions and they kind of know without anybody saying anything that we're going on patrol now.

[77] This is it.

[78] That was very fascinating.

[79] Yeah.

[80] Because I was trying to figure it out myself.

[81] Like, how are they coordinating this?

[82] Like, how do they know?

[83] You know, they, and I have endless conversations with the scientists at At and Go -go about that.

[84] and um you know they're stumped as well because there aren't really any there aren't really any signals that this is about to happen and you know they'll be lying around or grooming or doing something completely um disconnected and then one chimp will we'll we'll get up and just start walking off in the direction of the border and and then the others will join and then as they start moving closer to the border that just the amount they vocalise just goes down and down and down to the point of being completely silent and yet it's a mystery that there must be something going on there and and often you know maybe it's associated with specific individual chimps who the other chimps know that those guys are patrol leaders you know years ago in the early days when the scientists were first there there was a chimp called Ellington and he was the patrol leader when Ngogo was one big group he never showed any real interest in the dominance hierarchy so he never made a play to be alpha didn't really seem that bothered he was a high -ranking male but he was not engaged in that internal dominant struggle at all really but of all the patrols that they witnessed there Ellington was the one who was present for the most and quite often leading them so he seemed to have this this attraction to that behaviour or this this ability or desire to go and patrol their borders more than other chimps and maybe in some ways that explains the lack of communication that they're more, that it's actually the very fact of Ellington getting up and moving off for no apparent reason does communicate to the other chimps, okay, we're going to go on patrol now.

[85] And, you know, the sort of modern version of Ellington who was around during our filming period is a chimpanzee called Rollins, who similarly has never shown any real interest to make.

[86] it to the alpha position while whilst all the other males are sort of you know jostling for a position there and you get the you get the feeling that ultimately they all want to be on that top spot and they'll just get as high as they can rollins doesn't seem to doesn't seem to have that desire or certainly it doesn't it doesn't appear so but he is the patrol leader he's he's always out there in front and taking the western group on on patrols and and they do it a lot, and it's very often him.

[87] And what was interesting was that his younger brother, who really is just an adolescent, Chimp, Damien, he was just kind of coming of age or just come of age when we started filming for Chimp Empire, and he really grew into that role during our filming period.

[88] He became Rowlands' sort of second in command during that period.

[89] And they were so, I mean, they look very similar anyway.

[90] They're very different ages, actually.

[91] They've got the same father, different mother, very different ages, but they look the same.

[92] But they don't, they don't know that they're brothers.

[93] But for some reason, they have this extremely close connection and both appear to have a real desire to engage in this territorial behavior.

[94] It's so wild to watch because there's centuries.

[95] there's ones that are on the lookout they they hold a particular post and there's no communication it's like i mean there doesn't appear to be i mean this is the thing like like i i've often asked about how how is this functioning you know you don't like say other parts of their lives that they're making vocalizations and signals that even though you don't understand what they are you can you can start to see patterns like the food grunts for instance you know that's a That's a very, it's a unique sound, and they make it when they're enjoying food.

[96] And then the rest of chimps gather and they enjoy the same food.

[97] So there's a clear way to observe that and to try and understand what it means.

[98] But patrols are, yeah, they've, you know, we know a lot about them through the scientists at Ngo and through observing them ourselves, but there are mysterious elements to it.

[99] that nobody understands.

[100] Do you think it's taught behavior?

[101] Like the main ones had to learn this out of necessity and then everybody else sort of observed this behavior and recognize the importance of it?

[102] I think that's a good point because we were thinking about that a bit.

[103] When we were there, so Bergel, this young Jim, who was just sort of coming of age, he started attending patrols so he's young he's only 10 years old but he's an orphan so he'll always hung out with older males anyway and during our filming period he just really started becoming a more frequent attendee of these these patrols now they're dangerous and and most younger chimps won't won't do that but yeah you wonder whether that that's where it kind of starts that you're sort of you're just you're mimicking the the chimpanzees that you want to you want to be friends with and you want to be like and you know that like this is just something you see them do so so you so you do it with them and and if you do it regularly enough exactly that they may be just you know you don't need to communicate that much you know you all know each other extremely well.

[104] You know by the way you're walking and the direction you're heading and who's there, what it is you're doing.

[105] And yeah, so maybe there's just a lot of that.

[106] Did you wonder if somehow or another there's some sort of telepathy?

[107] I mean, some sort of communication that we don't understand where it's fermones or something?

[108] Personally, I wondered all sorts of those things.

[109] you know, what, what is it?

[110] There is, is there some other signal?

[111] You know, I mean, until there's proof for that, it's just pure speculation, but there's a gap in the understanding there from a scientific point of view.

[112] And, you know, like I say, if they were here today, the scientist from Ngogo, they would be saying the same thing, that we don't know exactly how those patrols are instigated.

[113] and how the chimps involved know that they're on patrol.

[114] We do not know that.

[115] So, you know, that, it leaves your imagination to run wild a little bit.

[116] Certainly the way that, I mean, I think telepathy is maybe a bit strong, but I mean, who knows?

[117] We don't know that it's not happening.

[118] I imagine the personal point of view, there seems to be quite a lot of sort of signaling.

[119] through eye movement.

[120] Again, this isn't supported by the scientific data necessarily, but they're very sensitive to where each other are looking, or at least they appear to be.

[121] And I remember one chimp, he's sadly died, although he leaves a lot of, he leaves a lot of offspring at Ngogo.

[122] but there was a chimp that featured in a film I made a few years ago, Attengogun, his name was Pinser.

[123] And when I first saw shots of Pinser, I felt this like something different about this chimp.

[124] And I don't know what it is.

[125] And in hindsight, I can't really believe that I couldn't spot it, but there was something just seemed very human about him.

[126] I was sort of looking more closely.

[127] and I realized Pinser had sort of completely white sclera like you and I right so you know when I look over like that you know exactly you know exactly where I'm looking and that's a very it's an important part of human cooperation we follow each other's gaze and therefore you know what it is I'm interested in or maybe what I'm about to do but in chimps I was I was reading about around it after I saw this chimp pincer with his with his white scleral whites of the eyes and officially chimps don't have this characteristic they're they're they're supposed to all have like brown um where we have whites of the eyes they have brown so the difference in color between the iris and here is is is less similar so there we are this is that one yeah okay i mean that's i mean it's a good one that that that's not even the best sort of picture of pincer and obviously you can see a bit of discoloration like you know they look like quite unhealthy whites of the eyes there but he has a very defined difference between his iris and whites of the eyes so with pincer even at a distance you can see where he's looking that may not seem like much but in a species where we don't fully understand their communication or they appear to be doing things without any vocalizations.

[128] I wondered, like, you know, how come Pins has got this and what impact does it have?

[129] I talk to, you know, there are other examples, oh, actually, and there is, there was a chimpa in Gombe, I think he was called Mr. Wurzel, who had a very good example of whites of the eyes as well.

[130] But we started looking into it at Ngogo, and I started talking to the scientists about it.

[131] And they were like, well, yeah, Pencer does have whites of the eyes.

[132] We've, you know, we've never really thought about it that much.

[133] And it's not that they didn't notice, but as filmmakers with our lenses and things, we're actually getting, we're often looking at the chimps in a level of detail that the scientists don't see every day.

[134] So in a way, we're sort of providing them with some sort of visual data that was of interest.

[135] And actually they did a proper study on it at Ngo and tried to find how many chimps at Ngo had this sort of whites of the eyes.

[136] And they found, I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was quite a reasonable percentage of it.

[137] You know, Pins is a great example, but had some version of that.

[138] They don't know why this is, but in my sort of excited sort of way I was thinking, Well, here's the biggest group of chimps ever known.

[139] They cooperate on levels that you don't see regularly in other chimpanzee groups.

[140] You know, they're on these territorial boundary patrols all the time.

[141] They hunt all the time.

[142] They're very successful on a cooperative level, and they appear to be doing these things in silence.

[143] What role do these whites of the eyes play?

[144] And, you know, anecdotally, the scientist is kind of a group.

[145] read that there was, you know, there's a possibility that it does play some role.

[146] Like I say, you know, they're scientists, you know, so it's different.

[147] They need the data to support that.

[148] But there was, you know, what's interesting about Pinser is that even though he never, he never made it to the top either, but he fathered a huge number of offspring and he was always there on these cooperative behaviours so he's if there's a hunt going on pincers around so this was like I say this is just it was just my hypothesis from a non -scientific point of view but I thought he played a sort of disproportionate role in sort of behaviours but again it's just it's an area they know an absolute ton about the chimps and gogo it is incredible from behaviour genetics everything they've studied that group of chimps very thoroughly but there is still a lot they don't know so this whites of the eyes characteristic this is a very unusual characteristic it's very unusual genetic variation it is I mean does do his offspring have this that that's exactly what the scientists wanted to know because obviously for it to be of like evolutionary benefit it needs to persist.

[149] His offspring don't actually, not in a way that, you know, if every kid that Pinsa had sort of came out with these eyes, you would suddenly think well, well, he is a little mutation that is, he's been reproductively successful and this could help and it could actually change.

[150] But no, they didn't find that actually.

[151] So, you know, for instance, Rollins, who's the patrol leader in the West, that's Pince's son.

[152] And he doesn't have that.

[153] He's got incredible eyes, actually.

[154] They're very piercing, but he doesn't have the same eyes.

[155] How common is that variation?

[156] I really, we just, I say we because the scientist generously made me an author on the paper.

[157] And I think, you know, I didn't do any of the real science work on it at all.

[158] but I think because of the conversations we were having, it sort of inspired that that particular study.

[159] I think they found that there was, again, don't quote me on the numbers, but something in the order of sort of 13 individuals at Ngogo.

[160] So a non -trivial percentage, that sounds very sciencey, but it means that, like, you know, it was a significant percentage, enough to take note of and that's as far as the study's got.

[161] They don't really understand the impact of that if it has any impact at all.

[162] You know, it could just be random variation.

[163] And because Ngogo is such a huge group, you know, that you would expect to see more variety and more incidences of of things that occur on low levels so they still really don't understand the role of that but it was interesting me on two levels like I thought it was fascinating because it made me just wonder about what's going on behind those eyes and but also as a human you just engage with Pinser in this you know it's like suddenly there's a part of his face that feels a lot more familiar I remember one of the scientists there who was their years ago when I was there, Kevin Potts.

[164] And like I say, they'd say different things around the fire at night as to what they'd say in the scientific papers.

[165] I remember Kevin going, I'm totally with you on Pinsa.

[166] And he said, honestly, some days I'll be out of there following Pinter around and he's just sitting there close to me. And I just think, any minute he's going to sit, just turn around and say, what are you doing, Kevin?

[167] And like, he was there.

[168] there is yeah i mean look at those eyes that's wild he's so unusual he was remarkable i mean that yeah that's kevin langa grabber the um one of the scientists from angogo that yeah i mean everybody loved pincers and everybody was very very engaged with him but even at a distance you see you can see what what's he thinking what is he about to do um and you have to wonder like that that it makes us think that so are the other chimps reading anything from that was there any correlation between chimps that have that characteristic and specific roles they play in the tribe um well i mean as we said it's you know it's a small portion of them and very little sort of they've done no specific study on it, but Pinsa was the best example.

[169] He appeared to be more involved in the cooperative behaviours than your average chimp.

[170] You know, that's what, you know, the scientist and Gogo was saying, you know, when there's a hunt pincers there, you know, when there's a patrol, he's there.

[171] So he seemed, but chimps without white sclera would be doing that as well.

[172] The interesting thing about Pinser was how many offspring he had.

[173] You know, he never, he was actually a low -ranking male his whole life, and he had the same number of offspring as the alpha male at the time.

[174] So here's an alpha male that's sort of dedicated his entire life to knocking off other guys on his weight of the top, and all the stress associated with being an alpha male that can go -go.

[175] And actually, you know, ultimately it's all about having kids and he had fewer kids than pincer who had just hung out at number 18 number 19 you know shine away from fights but was very successful but those things could be completely unrelated because pincer was also fascinating in that like he had a different sort of strategy with females as well he was he spent a lot of time with females um in ways that some of the higher ranking males didn't so they would you know wait until the female they wouldn't really spend much time with the females concentrate on their male relationships and then when the male the females were in a reproductive state in eestress then they'd go all right okay now it's time and use their position to gain access to her whereas pincer played the more sort of girlfriend type game he'd spend a lot of time with females even when they weren't reproductively in that state so it wasn't for immediate benefits but he spent a lot of time he put the hours in and and yeah the the the Ugandan field trackers they used to love pincers and they used to describe these different female chimps as pincers girlfriends and pincers wives depending on how much time he spent with them but spent a lot of time with females so you know is there anything to do with the whites of the eyes.

[176] He was just a fascinating chimp and he did things in a bit of a different way to what your average male chimp is expected to do.

[177] It's so interesting that he has that characteristic and then he also exhibits behavior that's slightly more human and clever.

[178] I totally agree.

[179] You're encouraging me in laser ways in which the scientists are below.

[180] There's no proof for that, James.

[181] There's no proof for that.

[182] I'm with Joe now, so we can go down there.

[183] But, yeah, I mean, I, that's, I've been, you can get really fascinated and carried away with those things.

[184] And the thing is, there's loads, we just simply don't understand about it.

[185] So all of that is possible.

[186] But, yeah, in scientific world, you need that proof, that data to support it.

[187] But, like I said, privately everybody adored Pinser and was fascinated by him.

[188] And new is something different.

[189] Well, I appreciate the intellectual discipline and not like separating it that way and saying there is no real scientific evidence.

[190] But my goodness is it's so fascinating.

[191] The whole thing was incredible.

[192] I mean, I feel like I learned more watching those chimps from your documentary than anything.

[193] And I've been obsessed with chimps like if you see with a skull and everything.

[194] My whole life, I think they're so interesting.

[195] They're so close to us.

[196] I mean, and you know, at one point, time we were sort of in the same group of hominids and something happened to us and they sort of remain the same and it's just yeah that I think out of all the animals that human beings have ever studied none of them are as fascinating as chimpanzees there's just because of our direct connection to them our close relation to them I I totally agree I mean you know some people love animals because they're different in different ways and some people don't like chimps because there very similar in some ways that are really good and in some ways which are quite dark you know there are lots of similarities um you know there are important differences as as well and i think you know that is what makes them so fascinating if they were if they were really really similar then you know it'll be too similar and it's sort of the the intrigue is sort of where that where is where does that similarity end and the differences begin and i think that's a very sort of personal experience watching chimps i think that's why people find it so cool as well as you you relate to different qualities in them as a species or different individuals and i hope that's kind of what we i hope that's what we did for chimp empire because we we try to pick a real range of perspectives and because they are complex creatures they are all different and you know you can say chimpanzees are like this or chimpanzees are like that or a chimpanzee of this age does this or that and and some of those generalisms are true and and are useful but that sort of individual variation that difference in personality from chimp to chimp that really affects what happens to them and and what they do and and who they have relationships with that's that's what's really fascinating and I think is as a human just yeah you you gravitate towards different qualities and different chimped characters no I think you did a fantastic job of highlighting that and it's it's so it's so compelling it's so interesting and so I mean what is it like to be embedded with this tribe for so long and then go back to regular civilization is there like a bit of an adjustment period well like we were there as a team we were there for about 400 days so that's a huge totally amissed the team members or human team members swapped in and out so the camera crew which was made up of four people usually two on each group they do sort of between six six weeks and two months at a time, and then they'd come out and leave the forest, leave Uganda, come back home, get their lives in order, you know, have some rest.

[197] And then they'd come out for another two months when the second team was finished.

[198] And we sort of tag teamed the camera crews.

[199] I, you know, I was not out nearly as often as the camera crew.

[200] So I personally would go out at the start of the shoots and help set up with the camera teams.

[201] and introduce them to what we were trying to do and the characters we were following and how we wanted to film them.

[202] At the same time, it's a real sort of observational documentary.

[203] So my role in it was to try and give them a good sense of the overall approach that we were taking, the dedication that we wanted to film specific characters day after day after day and that you know only after filming them in that sort of level of commitment are we going to really get a sense of who they are and and that involves filming chimps you know when they're not doing stuff that's very interesting and i remember early days um gus who's one of my favorite chimps the anti -social adolescent um he i just thought he was going to be an interesting character from the start, but the camera team who were sort of tasked with sort of following him, you know, for miles and hours and hours during the day, they were coming back at the start and going, you know, I don't know about this guest guy, he doesn't do a lot, and he's off on his own, and, you know, and they'd be hearing all this like commotion over this other part of the forest, and as a camera person, it's like, I'm filming the guy doesn't do anything.

[204] Where's Jackson?

[205] I can hear Jackson kicking it off, and, you know, they're jealous of the people who had the more sort of immediately exciting targets.

[206] But that was what we had to do to bring that diversity of characters to life is that some characters won't do a lot on a day -to -day basis.

[207] But then when they do, you're fully invested in them and you're with them.

[208] And it was his inactivity that was kind of Gus's story, actually.

[209] He was often on his own, which meant he wasn't doing a lot because he's just him and the trees.

[210] But then when he came out of that sort of isolation and tried to groom someone desperately trying to make a friend, you were with him.

[211] You know, you're like, oh, this guy's, he's coming to the group.

[212] Maybe he's going to, maybe someone's going to groom him back.

[213] So it was, yeah, it was important to follow that, that range of characters.

[214] But it was being, being sort of immersed for that long.

[215] You know, it's an incredible experience.

[216] And I think that for everybody involved in it, that was part of.

[217] it.

[218] You're living, you literally live within the Ngogo Chimpanzee territory because the scientific study has a camp.

[219] So like this small like island in the middle of the Ngogo territory.

[220] So there, you know, it's completely pristine rainforest in every direction, but there's a little clearing and it's been there for decades and there's a selection of sort of tents and little log cabins, very low impact.

[221] and small, but that's where the scientists and the Ugandan field trackers stay every year when they go out there.

[222] And we stayed there.

[223] But being immersed in it, even at night time, you know, where you can hear the sounds of the forest and you know the chimps are out there sleeping, not that far from you, that really helps with engaging in their lives, actually.

[224] Had we been able to sort of like nip in and out and stay in a hotel outside, you know, everybody wanted, you you miss the comforts a lot, you know.

[225] And when you do get out, you love it.

[226] But it was an important part of the process to be properly immersed and to live in the forest and it just, it helped you sort of feel what they feel a little bit.

[227] I would imagine that the coordination of filming and then the editing process of trying to piece together a narrative is incredibly complex and difficult because you have 400 days of footage that you want to boil down to four shows.

[228] It is very difficult.

[229] And I think, you know, we couldn't know, we had ambitions for it, but we couldn't know how successful we were going to be at it.

[230] You know, I mean, we managed to film a lot more than I ever expected.

[231] So the schedule and the technical.

[232] work flow, you know, batteries charging, how you offload all the footage each day, the dailies.

[233] All of that stuff was sort of based on an assumption that we wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't have the level of access that we actually had.

[234] And the team was so good.

[235] And the cameras that evolved quite a lot since I was filming chimps even a few years previously.

[236] So we got an enormous amount of footage.

[237] You know, it's also just working with the team of scientists who just totally believed in it and enabled us to get that level of access, helped us predict what was going to happen, where they were going to go.

[238] So we were just, yeah, we filmed a lot more than I ever expected.

[239] And yeah, condensing that down and simplifying it into a four -part series was a huge challenge.

[240] Like said, from the beginning, we were totally disciplined about certain things.

[241] You know, however it turned, we were going to tell the story that unfolded over that 18 months.

[242] You know, we, there's not the option to make things up or create stories that didn't happen.

[243] and so we were you know our the challenge was going to be well well what don't what do we not use basically so we filmed a lot more than we ever needed and we did that in terms of range of characters as well there were there are whole character storylines that we filmed that didn't make it in so that's where we were that's where our editing process in our sort of the creative approach to it was that we're going to be able to make these really dramatic and accessible stories by a mission, but it's what we don't have in.

[244] But that process is sort of like a sculpting process.

[245] You sort of come back with a hundred hours worth of footage off one shoot and we did six shoots.

[246] And then you sort of go through that and just gradually sculpt it down to, to the characters and the moments in those character stories that you feel are the most interesting or reflect what really happened.

[247] Now, what is that process like?

[248] Well, first of all, you said you have these camps.

[249] Is there electricity in these camps?

[250] No, so, no, nothing.

[251] So how are you recharging batteries?

[252] So a combination of solar and generators.

[253] So we had a couple of generators that we would stick on.

[254] for sitting little hour slots during the day and that would cover downloading the footage when it came back and also charging batteries and radios as well so we had a few electrical needs that the you know the scientists didn't have and weren't set up for so there were some things we needed to do yet we had two generators we tried to use them as infrequently as possible because even though they were quiet for a generator but you still you don't want to be chugging away and using up fuel in a sort of low impact situation there.

[255] But we did need a bit of power.

[256] But we're always able to, you know, offload cards and charge batteries and then we're ready for the next day.

[257] And then you have to do it again and again and again.

[258] I would imagine that at the end of the day, there probably has to be a very complex system of organizing what you got and defining it.

[259] Yeah.

[260] And then, I mean, you have so much footage to be able to go over that and try to piece together a storyline and to know on what cards and on what hard drives you have what data.

[261] Because you're not uploading it anywhere, correct?

[262] Do you not have internet access?

[263] No, no, no, so it's all there.

[264] This is quite technical stuff.

[265] If you're interested in that, I can get in.

[266] Yeah, yeah, please, please.

[267] So, yeah, and we went through loads of sort of working out how we're going to, how do we make sense of this?

[268] Did you coordinate this in advance before the expedition began?

[269] Yeah, huge amount of work beforehand on all sorts of things.

[270] So all the camera, we tested out a ton of cameras.

[271] So there's lots of things on the technical camera side that we had to, and that involved going to local forests in the UK.

[272] This is in terms of capabilities.

[273] Low light capability and weight and ease of use.

[274] because yeah not to get distracted by that I'll come back to all the logging and things but the camera side there's a scientist who was one of the first guys out at Goga called David Watts he's a yeah he's a professor at Yale he's a very big deal very eminent scientist but he chose for his own personal interest to carry around a little camcorder since when not from David when he was there, but very early from when he first went to see the chimps in the early 90s.

[275] He carried around a tiny little palm camcorder mini DV tapes or something at the time.

[276] And he's had various versions over the years as they've got a bit more modern, but you know something is about 400 grams that you could just stick in his backpack with a bottle of water.

[277] Over the years he's filmed things that no film crew has ever managed to get.

[278] Now he films them like a sign.

[279] It's video data for him.

[280] You know, he's not filming it for, you know, it's not a 4K Netflix production.

[281] But he's just filmed moments in their lives that have just been impossible for film crews, carrying enormous equipment, very heavy tripods, so they're stable in the forest, giant long lenses.

[282] You know, traditionally, film crews have only really managed to capture small parts of their lives.

[283] Whereas David was filming these.

[284] incredible things regularly just felt like he had this this amazing access and I remember thinking like if we can find some sweet some version of that where we have the same level of access that David has but with cameras with new technology that that will deliver for a sort of 4K Netflix production you know so in there in the end I mean if I had the camera on the table now you'll be like well that doesn't look very small and it was you know in the camera crew be like well they were quite heavy actually and you had to carry them around in backpacks but they were they were significantly lighter and easier to use than than things that would normally be used on those sorts of shoes so that made an enormous difference and I think that but in a way that's related to this huge volume of footage so we sort of came up with this fantastic setup with the cameras but it allowed these camera people who were fit as well and just like super keen to just film all sorts of things that we we didn't expect to get.

[285] Then we have this huge challenge where we've got volumes of footage that you know often with things that you kind of you know you might film a grooming scene for sort of two hours and then in the end you only want to use a few shots of it.

[286] You know you're still representing what happened there but you've got this huge volume of stuff to cut out.

[287] So yeah long months before we ever went there we're trying to work out how are we going to organize this stuff and we need to organize it like when it's fresh because we need to know who's in that shot we can't just end up in the edit with like 300 hours of like who's that chimp again oh i think that's carder right you know you just can't do any of that stuff so i imagine like i imagine reality series do do a similar thing actually this sort of observational docs where you're just filming a ton of people all the time or CCTV style stuff but for us we yeah we needed to straight away back up the footage and then assess what we had and every single shot needs to be logged with which chimps are in that shot what are they doing what are the conditions and then there's all the data about that's built into it that says when it was and and and even in some case GPS information so all of that went into every single shot.

[288] So at the end of it, we've got this enormous library and this cool bit of software where you can go, I'm pretty sure I know the story beats that we've recorded with Gus, but let's just type in Gus and bring up every shot of Gus that we got over the year.

[289] And it would go, and then that's Gus, everything that we've got of Gus.

[290] And so, you know, we had to, once we knew the characters that we wanted to be viewing.

[291] this story through we we were able to sort of concentrate on them and and sort of build out of the narrative that we that we filmed there um yeah built built their storylines in in in parallel to the storylines with the group now that there's cell phones that are capable of 4k and you know you're talking about how this one scientist was able to get access with this little very small camcorder.

[292] Was there any thought of using cell phones?

[293] Because they're so small now and the cameras are so good.

[294] They are and they are really good.

[295] In the forest they are less good actually because it's a real low light situation.

[296] So that's, you know, and you don't have the ability with, with cell.

[297] You can, you can zoom in on most phones, can't you?

[298] But the quality goes right down.

[299] And it's a digital zoom, so you're not using as much of the sensor.

[300] So although they are extremely impressive, and when you're in a situation with loads of light, the images look, you know, you can blow them up on a screen like that, and they look good.

[301] But they don't actually compare to sort of professional cameras in that type of situation.

[302] But when you're talking about this one scientist that had this very tiny camera and all the incredible footage that he was able to get, I would imagine that with cell phones today, particularly with these, there's various add -on lenses that you can, little cases that you could put on a small cell phone.

[303] You know what?

[304] It wasn't, I don't think about it a lot or because of the assumptions at the time was that it still wasn't going to be quiet enough.

[305] But I agree.

[306] I mean, I think there's, you know, you'd certainly, they would be recording at a level that you wouldn't have been able to before.

[307] I still think we, Our compromise was to try and get the highest quality possible whilst getting that access.

[308] So like I say, if I actually got the camera out now, you'd be going like, that looks like a pretty big deal.

[309] You know, it's bigger than these cameras, for instance.

[310] But it was still relatively small compared to most sort of nature show set -ups.

[311] So when you're filming, you film for 400 days, like how long is that?

[312] editing process so we went through like a huge pre -editing process which is what I was talking about earlier going from that right this is everything that we've shot reducing it right down to you know the the best bits and the most relevant scenes that we'd filmed and you know Gus is quite a good example we would you know film them for hours not not doing very much and looking and like you struggling socially and like you know so there's you don't actually need to make that point and to share that experience with the viewer you only actually need a small amount of that so there's a phase of it where you sort of just reduce it down to everything that you think the boil it right down this was the story that we recorded in its most representative chunks um and that really helps you get it right down to a manageable level and then And then looking at that and thinking, okay, well, how's this going, how are we going to divide up these, this, this, this narrative across four episodes.

[313] And there's obviously that's where we had quite a lot of choice, you know, it's a, the story unfolded in, in a particular way.

[314] But we, we could choose when to introduce the different groups and we could choose how much to experience.

[315] certain parts of the story and then how much to sort of compress times during that narrative that we recorded.

[316] So there are quite a lot of creative choices there.

[317] Like I say, the overall the series at the end, that that's what happened.

[318] But there's a whole load of bits that we sort of compressed because you didn't necessarily need to see this period between that and that.

[319] And it and it wasn't it wasn't relevant for the story but yeah editing so a lot of work done before the edit because you can't you know you couldn't have expected any editors to come in and just go well you know there's the rushes make us a good opening show will you um so loads of work done before the editors got on board um but then yeah four different editors about 20 weeks per episode wow yeah so what's that like five months or something but you know that that sounds like a really long time and it is but you you have to be in a position to share a cut with in this case Netflix about halfway through that process so actually you know you know putting together a show that really that really works and and illustrates the story that you've captured in a dramatic way.

[320] Yeah, it takes quite a lot of work.

[321] And that needs to be, that needs to be representative of where you're going by the time you first show it.

[322] I would imagine that's one of the biggest challenges of this whole piece, this whole series.

[323] Yeah, I mean, Phil, lots of different challenges along the way.

[324] And in some ways, like each time you knock off one of the challenges, you know, you feel a bit more relaxed about it.

[325] I personally, I love being in the edit.

[326] That's sort of my happy place.

[327] I mean, I like being in the field.

[328] I used to like it more when I was younger and fitter, actually.

[329] It's getting harder.

[330] I mean, it's not like I'm an old man or anything, but like the camera crews are younger and fitter than I am.

[331] And lighter.

[332] But the edit is, you know, that's, I love that part of the process.

[333] and, you know, you can really, things can be, you know, you can edit shows in a lot of different ways and the sort of style and tone and the music and things.

[334] A lot of the sort of, a lot of the overall feel of the series starts to come to life.

[335] So, and I think we, we are fantastic editor Sam Rogers who I've worked with a few times before and he was, he did the first episode.

[336] and he did a really, really good job.

[337] Great instincts for it.

[338] And we were very well prepared.

[339] And we, you know, initially we didn't do any sort of narration on it because we wanted to sort of do a test of like, how much are you going to just engage with these chimps and not be told what's happening or what might be about to happen or what that means?

[340] Let's just do it without any commentary at all to start with.

[341] and it was a fantastic exercise because then we showed Sarah at Netflix that that first cut and everyone loved it and you could follow it and you were just like you were right in there and you know in a way I sort of in some ways I missed that first version because it was kind of it was an odd experience just sort of like no just we are just going to be following the chimps and the edit and the music and the sound is going to sort of tell us what's happening here you might have liked that because it was a very sort of just direct experience with the chimps have you thought about releasing a different version that doesn't have narration um that seems like you have so much footage and i mean i would imagine that it's just more people watching yeah i mean i don't know i mean in the end because we've got mahercial o 'allee and and i just loved that part of the process as well so i think in in the end And, you know, I thought it was a great exercise, but actually, you know, we wanted it to reach a broad audience.

[342] We did want another layer of thought process there and some interpretation.

[343] And, you know, mehishel did a fantastic job.

[344] And I think that, you know, yeah, there are other voices we could have had on it that I may have sort of regretted and it might have taken something away from.

[345] from that.

[346] And I think that that was, yeah, for me, that sort of confirmed that, yeah, we looked out with Mahisha and he was fantastic because it gave it something else.

[347] It gave it an extra sort of conceptual layer that I think really, really helps.

[348] But certainly makes it more relatable to humans.

[349] It does.

[350] Yeah.

[351] And it makes it easier to follow along, especially someone is not like completely fascinated with just observing chimp behavior with no narration yeah and the thing is is what you can't like stylistically um there's whole sections that you could follow actually without any narration but then that becomes quite an unusual experience if you're just like you go like 20 minutes without hearing a word and then and then mehershala pops up because there actually you need some you need to know something here about what's at stake you know and that's often how we sort of tried to shape the the narration was sort of on a need to know basis um you know I think we you know because the voice really worked we sort of decide to use it a little bit more but our initial approach was well I think it's certain situations you know for instance Gus going to groom Abrams or whatever you need to know what's at stake there you need to know that he doesn't he doesn't actually have any grooming partners and that this is you know this sort of opportunity with a chimp like abrams could could change his situation and you could you know partly you could follow that visually but i think it really it helped sort of really solidifying some of those thoughts you have so much footage and four shows has there been thought about expanding this and doing more episodes I mean I think it would be hard because we sort of because the series covers the sort of the true chronology of events so all all the sort of real drama real things that happened throughout that period you know, represented in the series.

[352] So quite a lot of the footage that we didn't use are just sort of other examples of the same thing that we didn't, you know, less descriptive versions of, you know, or repeated behaviours and things.

[353] So there wasn't a lot of things that you sort of feel, ooh, there's a whole other show in there.

[354] And also there weren't things that, you know, how the series concludes.

[355] That was really at the end of our final shoot.

[356] So the footage that we have is sort of supporting material for everything that's sort of out there.

[357] But, I mean, you know, the story still continues in Gogo.

[358] You know, things are still going on there and still changing.

[359] Do you get updates?

[360] Yeah.

[361] So we, I mean, we're pretty close to all the scientists there and have been for years.

[362] you know we're friends and stay in touch um i'm seeing one of them tonight actually who lives in austin um but they they are often texting things that are happening now that they know would be interested in now has there been thought about doing another series um because this has obviously been very successful well you know i think i mean it's hard to say you know it's only been a few weeks so it's hard to say how how successful it is yet because Netflix doesn't tell you they're crafty with that yeah it's obviously anecdotally from people that I know I mean so many people recommended it before I watched it I got so many text messages like you must watch this this is right up your alley so many people told me about it well I think I think because of your interest there you might get a bit of a bias on the sort of like overall conversation on it maybe i don't know i mean i'm i'm assuming um because people know you're in the chimps i think yeah i mean i read i read the twitter feed each day i can't resist or refresh that see what people are saying about it and really um yeah i'm really excited about the feedback um you should be but i don't know yeah whether it's going to get bigger or bigger or who knows i mean i personally and the whole team who are involved in it, you just kind of fall in love with that place and the people who work there and all the chimps.

[363] You know, whether we're filming or not, you kind of just, you want to find out what's happening and what's happening in Gogo.

[364] Because you're following that story whether you film it or not.

[365] And I think we'll always be on a sort of like, you know, we want to find out.

[366] Is Abraham's in charge?

[367] You know, yeah, there's things that have happening that were constantly being updated about.

[368] I think we'd love to go into a second season, but I think that's, you know.

[369] Quite an undertaking.

[370] It's a huge undertaking, but I think we learnt so much on the first one that, I mean, you know, a lot of the pain about how to do it, we sort of, it would be a much easier thing second time around.

[371] But it also seems like one of the most unusual situations where there has been, these embedded scientists in this area for 30 years.

[372] And these chimps are so accustomed to it.

[373] I mean, it's like to try to reestablish that somewhere else.

[374] Yeah.

[375] And this is a very unusual group of chimpanzees too, right?

[376] It is.

[377] I mean, there are other chimpanzee sites, several other chimpanzee sites around Africa where they have a similar, you know, the chimps are habituated, long -term scientific projects.

[378] You know, Jane Goodall being the perfect example.

[379] You know, here project has been there long before the guys were studying Ngogo.

[380] So that's much longer term.

[381] You know, there's study sites in Thai in the Ivory Coast and Fongoli.

[382] You know, there's many of them.

[383] What's unique about Ngogo is as well as having that level of access and data and sort of, so you just have so much information about the chimps, but there's also just a ton of chimps.

[384] and they are quite unique in that the Ngogo territory is surrounded by forest in every direction whereas at other sites often chimpanzee habitats or bordered by farmland or human settlements of some kind so they're quite sort of that it's a little wild pocket in amongst an area that is less wild at and go go and i think this is unique for study sites of chimps they have it's wild in every direction outside of there so that does impact their their behavior and their sort of group dynamics because the edge of their territory is not like some land they can't go on it's land they can take because it belongs to other chimps and so and you know whether you whether you enjoy watching that aspect of chimpanzee behavior or not there's a there's another layer to what to what happens at go -go um you know loads of other chimpanzee sites would they they have different things that they do you know for instance in in in in fongoli in senegal they use spears to hunt bush babies you know there's sort of there's in every little in every different chimpanzee site there's like an associated unique behavior or culture.

[385] Scientists wouldn't call it culture, but a simple way of looking at it, there's different, like, sort of things that they do that are separate and different to other chimpanzees.

[386] So you've observed chimpanzees that use spears?

[387] There are, yeah.

[388] I haven't observed any of them at all.

[389] It's not, I've never been there or filmed that, But yes, they use sticks.

[390] But do they sharpen these sticks?

[391] You know what?

[392] I don't know.

[393] And my partner, Rosie, actually made a film about those chimps.

[394] We're quite chimpy in our household.

[395] And she'll be able to answer that better.

[396] But I know that they use spears, and I think they make spears.

[397] So I don't know whether they sharpen them, but they certainly strip them down so that they are like.

[398] spear.

[399] Wow.

[400] And they jab in holes for bush babies.

[401] What is a bush baby?

[402] It's like a little nocturnal primate.

[403] They're very, they're very cute.

[404] Oh boy.

[405] How conflicted is that?

[406] I mean, it just watch them tear the monkeys apart with their hands.

[407] I know.

[408] But having them use weapons and spear them.

[409] Yeah.

[410] Well, I mean, chimpanzees, you know, use tools since Jane, well, Jane Good, I mean, they've used tools probably for thousands of thousands of years, we don't know, but, you know, Jane Goodall discovered that many years ago.

[411] So making, not just using tools, but making tools.

[412] Wow.

[413] It's quite cool, isn't it?

[414] That is so cool.

[415] Interestingly, the Ngogo Chimps, they do occasionally use a tool for something or other, but they're not.

[416] Like in West Africa In the ivory coast The chimpanzees there use big rocks to crack nuts And they use sticks to fish for ants And same thing in Gombay And like say in Fongoli They use spears for bush babies So tool use is quite a big thing for chimps generally Around Africa But at Ngogo They're not big tool users and it's interesting they maybe you've just never you know tools are a solution to a problem for the chimps that identify that they need something and that tool will help get it and it feels that in GoGo that actually they're not they've not really had that need and because of the fruit and because of the prevalence of monkeys maybe it's such a rich environment loads of fruit they've just they've hammed the monkeys there um i remember yeah john matani one of the scientists saying um yeah engogo they don't you know they don't use a lot of tools they cooperate on really interesting levels like that's the thing that feels that is the identifying um or the defining quality of the ngogo group it's their sheer popular the the population size they're just a massive group um and maybe as a function of that, there's levels of cooperative behavior there, that they achieve those getting the things that they want through cooperation rather than to all youth.

[417] When you're observing them hunting after monkeys, is there speculation that there's two things going on, that they're hunting the monkeys for food, but also that they're preventing the monkeys from eating the fruit?

[418] because they must be in competition with the monkeys for these prized resources because of course the monkeys eat fruit as well they do I don't think that's a that's a thing but you might I think the overriding things they're just like hunting the monkeys because the thing is that that does exist with other with other animals rather with predators I think that coyotes one of the reasons why they target cats is not just for food but the cats are also predators.

[419] You know what I don't know?

[420] And I don't think I've ever really asked that specifically to the scientists there.

[421] But I'm guessing that there's so much fruit around that, you know, those sorts of things might be driven by like a scarcity of food.

[422] So therefore, like, you know, take out your competitor for that food.

[423] and I think what they probably say was that it's such a rich environment and actually they just seem to love hunting monkeys which is a shame you know and is it a shame I don't know I don't know well it's hard you know I feel I've been desensitized to it a little bit so you know obviously don't go yes they've got that monkey you know but but you accept it and you you, yeah, you don't, I think if you're following the Ngogo chimps, you're sort of, like, on some level, you're kind of with them, really, and therefore, you know, you're not, you're not, like I said, you're not rooting for them, you know, you don't really want them to do that, but you totally accept that they do.

[424] But, you know, in previous years, the, there used to be a lot more monkeys there.

[425] So the, the chims are actually having, a probably negative, a probably negative impact on the numbers of the monkeys.

[426] But is this just, they have a very specific territory.

[427] Yeah.

[428] And this is just in their territory?

[429] Yeah.

[430] They're having a big impact.

[431] So is there a prevalence of monkeys outside of their territory?

[432] And do they ever go outside of their territory specifically to try to target monkeys?

[433] I know that they go to areas of their territory or areas at the edge of their territory where they know there are more monkeys still because yeah one time monkeys were much more common within their territory you know they'd avoid the chimps or whatever but there was a known there were known groups of monkeys there and and now there are less because they're so effective hunting them yeah there's a there's one of the images of this torso of a monkey and they're just eating it and it's it's so weird because there's just something that's just so uniquely disturbing about watching a primate eat a primate.

[434] I know.

[435] Yeah, see, it's like, it is what they do.

[436] It is.

[437] Yeah, you, unfortunately, if you follow chimps and a lot of chimp groups do that, in fact, everywhere where you find chimps and monkeys in the same place, it happens, I think.

[438] um yeah it is part of what they do do you find yourself rooting for the monkey to get away or do you find yourself rooting for the chimp to get the monkey i mean because you you kind of want to capture the the actual successful hunt i don't know not not necessarily actually no no and i think that you know particularly the type of thing that we were doing it wasn't sort of you know we want that behavior you know we weren't out to get behavior sequences we just wanted to film what happened and in and in a way them attempting to hunt something and failing is is also an interesting story does it happen often where they attempt to hunt monkeys and the monkeys get away it does it does happen yeah not not very often most of the time they're successful yes I think so and you do I mean having said I was I'm a bit desensitized to it I think you know that what the natural thing is you're seeing a much bigger around animal go after a much smaller animal so in almost everybody there's there's an underdog there and there's you know you kind of you are on some level thinking come if you just get out to that skinny tree there get out of that skinny branch they won't follow you there you know because that's the that's the challenge on the monkeys try and get out right on the tips of the branches which are you know they won't they won't hold the chimps white so that's the safe bit but then but then it's quite a precarious position because where do you go from there you're just kind of delaying things really because they know exactly where you are it's hard because the you know those monkeys are they're complex creatures as well yeah and i think you know if we were we were focusing on them a lot we'd start to engage with them as individuals and you know it would it would feel different and it's important to remember that but you know the purpose of this see a theories was we wanted to experience what it was like to be in and go go chimpanzee.

[439] From their perspective, monkeys are food.

[440] Did you observe noticeable patterns in how they hunt or strategies of how they hunt these monkeys?

[441] No, not, I mean, not really other than, like I said, there are sort of stages to it where, you know, it's not, they'll just suddenly start hunting.

[442] There'll be a process where one of the chimps might hear some monkeys or they might have gone looking for them in a particular area and there's different stages where they kind of know there's monkeys in the area and they're sort of feeling their way around and maybe they've heard a call and they're sort of making their way gradually over there.

[443] and then when they identify an opportunity right okay there's a group of monkeys here and they're up in that tree and then they can often be very quiet a bit like being on patrol at that point where you know they're just kind of getting as close as they can and in positions where they can be most effective without making any noise and without scaring anything off um And then generally it takes just one chip to just go for it.

[444] And then the chase is on.

[445] So there's no element of surprise or anything.

[446] It's just it's a rush.

[447] And they're trying to corner the monkey or monkeys in positions in the trees where they can get to them.

[448] One of the things that they observed in the David Attenborough capturing of this sort of behavior was that they will sort of ambush them.

[449] they will set up traps yeah you know there's i think a lot of people sort of have different opinions about this and i think probably every hunt is different and i think sometimes you might observe those things and then in your mind get a sense that oh this is how they must do it because during that hunt he was over there and he was over there and they appeared to do that in my experience there didn't seem to be that sort of pattern of behaviour it was it was not it was not as organised as that actually when it came to to those parts of the hunt also it's a very difficult thing to observe and to film so you really having said we're getting amazing details of their lives but there were some activities that they do like a hunt I mean you're looking through windows in the canopy and just like you see a chimp leg it across there and over there and then suddenly someone's got the monkey and making sense of that you know I think scientifically it's really hard but from filmmaking point of view you're capturing moments and you can piece together what's happened there but there's definitely things that haven't that you haven't seen they've gone on behind trees or leaves or so I think it's hard to kind of know exactly how they do it is there any concern while you're doing this that you're interfering in some sort of a way or that you're going to upset them that you're getting in the way of the hunt or getting in the way of their natural behaviors it's a it's a constant consideration like how you know the worst thing we could possibly do is to go in there and try and observe the sort of real world of the Ngogo chimpanzees and then find ourselves having an impact on that being sort of participating in it so that's not that's no longer the real world of the chimpanzees that's the world of the Ngogo chimps when they're sort of distracted or impacted by human observers so that you know that would be that would just ruin the whole point of it so it's a constant consideration weirdly and it does I don't really have an explanation for it and I've not really heard one that works for me that oddly apart from sort of acknowledging you they just don't seem to be impacted by your presence at all they pretty much ignore you and like chimpanzees are so like spatially aware like they they live in this three -dimensional forest work world where they can just go from tree to tree, horizontal, vertical, they just, they're very aware of everything that's around them.

[450] You would assume in these chaotic moments that, you know, you might get in one's way or run into you, and it never happens.

[451] And it's as if, but then again, you never see a chimpanzee run into a tree either.

[452] You know, they, they know where everything is.

[453] And for some bizarre reason, they're totally accepting of this sort of passive presence in the forest these strange bipedal creatures that sort of follow and are close and sort of within observing them and it's not like they you know they acknowledge you they know you're not just like I said earlier you're not spying on them you're you're kind of part of it but they're not interested in you it's strange like until you're there and you're in it's it's sort of an impossible thing to describe and it's a very difficult thing to understand until you're actually right there.

[454] And I think when, you know, when something's kicking off and there's a lot of like excitement and chaos within the group, if you haven't experienced that before, it's intimidating and you can't quite believe that you're not somehow going to get swept up in it.

[455] But you don't at all.

[456] And they, you know, there's been decades of this happening uh and go go where they're just they accept this sort of passive presence in the forest i mean it must be so weird you're there when they get up you know and you follow them around all day and you know when they take a shirt when they're making friends with somebody when they're doing anything that they're doing you know and you're just you're there but they they appear not to mind at all and it doesn't appear to impact their behaviour at all.

[457] That's so fascinating how close do they get to the photographers the humans the camera people like so you know there are strict rules that can go go and anywhere working with chimpanzees because we're so similar they're susceptible and vulnerable to sort of human infections so even things that don't really bother us like a cough if we had a cough or a cold that would be quite dangerous to transmit to was this during COVID that you filmed all this you know we started it was just after lockdown but we had sort of we were prepared to do it before COVID kicked in then COVID happened and the whole world shut down and then we got out there as soon as we could afterwards when things were starting to open up you know because Uganda wouldn't let any flights in for a long time but as soon as they did we went out there and we had to be tested regularly for COVID people were worried about what would happen if a chip got COVID right naturally very worried but actually in place already there was were you know you have to wear masks you can't go closer than seven meters you you have you know if you're not feeling well or or anything like that you mustn't go and see the chimps.

[458] And that's important because, yeah, chimps, a common cold can be lethal to chimps.

[459] So, yeah, so for that reason, you have to stay seven meters away from them in the forest.

[460] That's not much.

[461] It's not, no. I mean, they say seven meters is an absolute bare minimum.

[462] They encourage you to about 10 meters.

[463] I think it's just 20 feet.

[464] Yeah, it's not a lot.

[465] So how far is that?

[466] Nothing that's across this room.

[467] Yeah.

[468] No, it's about the length of this room.

[469] That's wild.

[470] Is about the distance you should be.

[471] And you make considered effort to make sure that's the case.

[472] However, you know, like I said, the chimps don't know that rule.

[473] So you can do whatever you can to maintain that distance.

[474] and you know if they come a little closer or come to sit down sort of you know within that seven metres you move back slowly but you don't you know it's not advisable to sort of jump out of the way or you know you take your opportunity and you slowly um get that distance between you back so but yeah doesn't feel like a lot at all particularly if there are chimps in in every direction and because the go -go group's so big it can be a lot.

[475] You can be in the middle of quite an amazing thing.

[476] I like it, you know, I mean, and I know, the exciting, or some of the most dramatic parts of chimpanzee life in Go -Go, you know, is the patrolling and a lot of the slightly more aggressive elements.

[477] But most of the chimps day is spent doing things that are just really enjoyable to be around.

[478] You know, when they're watching chimps groom is one of the most sort of, like, relaxing.

[479] Like, you're, I mean, it looks so relaxing.

[480] It's kind of like, it has quite a soporific effect on you.

[481] Like, if you're in amongst a group of chimps, and they're all sort of gently grooming each other, you feel very sleepy.

[482] It's quite odd, just watching it.

[483] It just looks so, you know, it's very gentle.

[484] You know, these huge males who are capable of, all sorts of things very tenderly sort of groom each other or younger members of the group or the females and like it really it looks so gentle they're just going finally going through each of the hairs and just really checking where there's anything worth coming out and they just they often sort of fall asleep or look very relaxed and those moments are kind of amazing actually because you sort of like they really make you relaxed and then there's a few kids will be playing around sort of, you know, they're not interested in long grooming sessions.

[485] So they're just tumbling around in the trees and things.

[486] And that's the majority of chimp life, actually.

[487] And what's so interesting about them because it's such a far cry and such huge difference between the more aggressive side of chimpanzees.

[488] But, yeah, that's what makes them so fascinating.

[489] That situation, they can be like that in the morning and you can feel like you've just stumbled into this sort of paradise situation.

[490] Everything's so delicate and it's so tender and playful.

[491] But then by, you know, come the afternoon, you know, they've got a job to do at the border and it's a completely different atmosphere.

[492] And it's tense and same thing.

[493] Your sort of heart rate is raised and, you know, you kind of, your state is determined a lot by what the chimps are doing.

[494] the the grooming aspect of their relationships is very unusual it's very unique and very very fascinating to watch because like they they sit there and they allow each other to do this but there's also this social hierarchy aspect of it and are they looking for bugs are they looking what are they looking for they are yes so there's like a there is a real practical function.

[495] They're looking for ticks or other sort of like external parasites I don't know what the other things are but there are you know they're big hairy creatures and in the forest things get stuck in there and ticks in particular and we you know we as humans going through the forest you've got to be really careful with ticks as well so yeah they are looking for specific things but then if you watch what they're doing and how they do it and particularly with our real sort of close -up lenses you can see in great detail you know you can see the hairs parting and exactly what they're going for um i don't know it feels like yes that's an important part of it but actually the the purpose they're kind of stroking each other and how long you do it for um and then when you turn around and and do it back all those things feel like they're much greater social value then so you know there's partly a cleaning each other keeping each other healthy that's definitely important and I think you know they have to do it for that reason but there's so many other layers to that the relationship building and the yeah so when you're interacting with these chimps is there ever a moment where the chimp tries to engage with the humans?

[496] No, but, you know, there are occasionally individual, like I say, they're all individuals.

[497] So saying anything about the chimps do this or they don't do that, like, you know, we're really generalising.

[498] There are occasionally individual chimps who, even if they don't, you know, they're not a threat to you, they are showing a level of interest that is.

[499] different to others and there's a chimp called rich burgle the chimp who's one of who's one of our focal characters in the west and he's always been very comfortable near human because usually the chimps like they they have that a little bit of like a tiny bit of residual fear of humans and i think that's what makes them quite comfortable of that distance as well like that Like, they're okay if you come there, but they actually don't want to be any closer.

[500] They, that seven to ten meter rule suits them to generally.

[501] That's a comfortable distance, but, you know, I don't want you.

[502] It's as if the chimps, like, they don't really want you coming sitting next to them.

[503] That's not okay.

[504] So, and I don't know whether that's just like what they like or whether they're used to it because over the years that that is the distance that scientists have kept.

[505] or whatever.

[506] But you do get some chimps that decide to come closer.

[507] Yeah, and Rich Bergel is one of those chimps.

[508] He orphaned at a young age, very well habituated, no fear of humans whatsoever.

[509] You know, he's never made contact, but I think everybody who works with him would say you know he's the one that will come and sit a little closer and or we'll walk towards you and then at the very last minute veer off and he's just kind of curious in a way that um that the others aren't now when the chimps are on patrol that's a uniquely intense and aggressive moment and it's so wild to watch to see them these hulking chimpanzees move through the forest in coordination when you're there with that and you're very close to these violent encounters with the other chimps is there any concern there that you could get caught up in this sort of violent frenzy and maybe be in danger of being attacked or you know the the there isn't actually and that that I mean the what let me let me let me what rephrase that, I would say on a personal level, of course, right?

[510] You know, you come, you hear about these things happening, you know it's a possibility will be there when it happens and when it's filmed.

[511] So we ask exactly the same question.

[512] So this is, you know, I've been through the exact same process as you are now and have this conversation with the scientists like, are we going to be safe?

[513] Right.

[514] You know, is it safe for us to where should we be or where should we not be if this happens when we're there?

[515] So totally, we had exactly the same.

[516] questions and we just didn't know and we were reassured by the scientists you know you'll you'll be amazed like if you see those things they will happen but they will ignore you and their only warning was that definitely don't get too close you know the because the level of excitement um around the chimps during these encounters you know if there's ever a time when they could accidentally come very close to you or suddenly see you and get a bit of a fright you know they wouldn't want they wouldn't want to take that sort of a risk with us so they did they did we were warned you know keep a respectful distance from that but amazingly and there's a little um a little behind the scenes clip that we've sort of released on on youtube now and you can see that during during the bit the biggest encounter that we filmed.

[517] The camera people were sort of like in it and around it and sort of at one stage sort of like accidentally between the two groups as they were sort of standing off.

[518] And, you know, that the certain way, I mean the chimps move so fast and they organise, reorganise, separate or whatever.

[519] So you can try and be in the perfect position, but then that perfect position could quickly become, where you don't want to be because of where the chimps have gone.

[520] So through no fault of their own, you know, there are times when they're sort of, they're in there, sort of, it's a bit like being a war reporter or something.

[521] But weirdly, you know, they're so focused on what it is they're doing and have no interest in sort of involving or redirecting their aggression to the humans.

[522] at all i think you know because of you know there are some quite high profile and sort of like pretty tragic sort of human chimp interactions aren't there in gogo no no i mean sort of like things that have happened at zoos or yes or whatever and i think that it i think it does give a sort of an an unusual impression of what chimps are like in the wild, they have all that sort of capability.

[523] And more so, you know, the Ngogo chimps, there's so many of them.

[524] And they are engaged in these sort of violent competitions with other groups.

[525] That's a very real thing.

[526] And it can get serious.

[527] But their relationship with people is just completely different.

[528] to a relationship chimps might have with people in captivity or if they've been kept as pets or something.

[529] Yeah, it's just, it's not, I totally get it and those are exactly the sort of things I wanted to know before I stepped in and go -go.

[530] Well, I mean, you know, for sure.

[531] You need to know.

[532] But amazingly, when you've been there around it, and even once you've just been on a single patrol with them actually and they are exhilarating when you go on patrol with inco go -chimps it's it's amazing they are taking you on a journey to the edge of their border and they're fully committed and they're coordinated and we don't seem to care that you're following and they're allowing you to sort of be there that's amazing yeah it it's an incredible experience actually it's real adrenaline yeah there they are look at that this was my favorite part just watching the moving coordination and just wondering like what how do they know like what are they doing almost seems like they're gesturing in some ways like that chimp with the one hand oh so this is the behind the scenes but yeah exactly you know gestures quite often the in a in our fall oh hands all over each other yeah that that's undeniable these sort of reassuring yeah gestures they they know they're they're in this like tense situation they're nervous I think that you can read into that they're sort of telling each other that like, I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm here.

[533] That physical contact is just, you know, it's just reassuring each other that we're in this together.

[534] It's you and me. And when violence does break out, what is that experience like?

[535] I mean, when you're seeing chimp -on -chimp violence from several feet away, I mean, That has to be wild.

[536] I don't, like I said, we, I mean, I don't really want to give away any spoilers for the series because some of these things are sort of like major plot points in the series.

[537] I don't think it matters.

[538] I know what you're saying.

[539] I appreciate your artistic sentiment.

[540] It doesn't matter.

[541] But it's so good.

[542] It's so good that even if you say what happens and people get to see it, it's so good.

[543] I mean, and I would say that like I said, I often personally, well, I wasn't there for many of the things that happen.

[544] but I was some and I have been there previously in GoGo where certain things have happened it's hard I think that is chimp -on -chimp violence is a lot harder to watch than the chimpon monkey violence for me personally and whether I'm there myself or whether I'm seeing it recorded later on And I think there's a, there's kind of a sadness to that, personally.

[545] Quite often it's because in truth, it gets more serious if the chimps outnumber them significantly.

[546] So when chimps are kind of equal -sized groups, when they come into contact, they're usually less violent situations.

[547] Because there's too much danger.

[548] there's too much danger too much at stake it's kind of it's a bit bravado they run at each other a few times but if there's enough chimps on either side you can pretty much know that in this immediate situation no one's going to get badly hurt they get badly hit when they're outnumbered and obviously that on a human level just no one likes seeing that sort of thing you know there's there's just yeah that that that it's just horrible and and it you know unfortunately we've all sort of seen that personally or clips of that in humans and it's the most uncomfortable horrible stuff you know it really makes you horrible um so yeah all of that stuff is very hard to watch was sorry well and i'll say even you know interestingly like say we the scientist certain go -go we know them really well now and we've worked with them for a long time so you know we share things and they share stories that on a more personal level with us um but they are obviously better than we or a view would be at detaching themselves you know this is just what happens they're there to observe and try and understand it's not an emotional thing but even even they who have been there for many years.

[549] And I think particularly because they've been there for many years, sometimes you see an act of violence on a chimp that you've known and been following around for ages.

[550] They may not care about you, but you really care about them.

[551] And it's sad.

[552] Yeah, it's very sad.

[553] During the filming, at least on the show, there's one instance of chimpanzees killing another chimp.

[554] Was there more of that?

[555] you're blowing all this I'm not I'm not okay you think it's a spoiler but I'm telling you it's just it's so complex it's so fascinating and so good yeah I don't okay good no no no it's fine I don't know it's you for me so I know it doesn't really matter it doesn't not I don't know it's so good it doesn't matter okay yes okay so that happens was it only one time while you were there well now yes no the well there's another thing in the series we're not going to talk about okay like because that really is a spoiler but um yes couple of occasions whilst we were there and that is how i mean does it is it conflicted do you almost have this like feeling that you intervene and protect the chimp or I think yeah everybody who's been around those feelings are you you wish it wouldn't happen right you don't want this to conclude in the way that you think it might but again I think I totally understand what why you're asking but I think once once you've been around them enough and you and you have to have this commitment to, and it's part of the same point that you're asking earlier about that impact on their lives.

[556] You want zero impact on their lives or minimal, right?

[557] You don't want any negative impact.

[558] You actually can't make too much of a positive impact either.

[559] You know, also it just wouldn't be practical.

[560] It's not safe, you know.

[561] You know, what could you do?

[562] Shout and make a noise and try and disturb them.

[563] just enough for a moment the chimp could get away and you know possibly but I think that it wouldn't be you know it wouldn't be ethical right to do it these are it is natural behaviour I mean that's my take on it from what I've seen at Ert Ngogo that these this is part of their natural behavior they are competitive and they're territorial and those you know those behaviors have served them well in in the past so you can't as much as it's not from a human observer point of view that same thing taking that same situation out there's something you observed in the street all those natural sort of tendency desires to intervene and stop something you know they're there for good reason um but you You know, this is the entire sort of the entire scientific project, our commitment as filmmakers to observe, but not interfere.

[564] I mean, that's all part of the same thing.

[565] You couldn't, if you stepped out of that role in any circumstance, you've crossed a line in a really odd way.

[566] But so, and in a way that sort of helps with what you're feeling when you see or observe those things because well you know there's absolutely nothing you can do about this right I mean of course ethically you really can't intervene but it's still it's sort of I mean what an amazing experience for you as a human being to have gone through this it's just such a rare rare insight into these animals and these incredibly unique creatures and their behavior it's just you must feel so fortunate just to have to experience just as a human being, just as a life experience to take that in.

[567] I really do.

[568] Yeah, I really do.

[569] I mean, this, you know, I've been very lucky in lots of bits of my job that I've done over the years.

[570] I think that, you know, it's a great job.

[571] It's very hard work, a lot harder than probably what people appreciate.

[572] But extremely lucky on loads of things, I do feel with the Ngogo Chimps in particular, like you say, as a human being from an existential sort of point of view there's like so I'm so fortunate and not really not many people get to see that and they are our closest relatives and they are fascinating because of the connections we have with them they're also fascinating because they're different and they're all individuals and it's a chance to just you kind of feel a part of something that has you know brought that important knowledge and information um to people yeah so i feel personally very fortunate yeah how do you top that um um i mean are you always trying to top your work because i mean what you've done is so extraordinary i i watched it and at the end of it i was like how do you beat that you know i mean you aren't always, I mean, you are always trying to make something better than you did before, on a personal and professional level, you want, you know, you want to do really cool stuff that people like, and so, yeah, I'm always thinking about what, what could be, you know, what could move things on.

[573] I think making a series about the Ngogo Chimps is quite hard because they feel, they aren't for all the reason we just said they are our closest relatives they are the biggest group in terms of sort of story and character which i think is probably you know i mean you're a chimpner and you love like all bits of it and you're fascinated on levels that a lot of people maybe don't appreciate so i think you you get the whole whole thing but i think what um Potentially what the broader audience is sort of, you know, really responding to is the characters and the stories.

[574] You know, there are the real chimpanzee characters that you can follow through the whole series.

[575] And that is hard, certainly harder to do with other animal species.

[576] You know, there's so much going on there in terms of individual variation.

[577] And, you know, chim psychology.

[578] you know you're always just wondering what are they thinking what are they going to do what's he making of that what does she want now you know they invite that level of intrigue and that depth and a depth of character the genuinely different characters who all kind of want quite different things and that as a sort of storyteller in the natural world is quite a unique opportunity so yeah I don't know actually I'll just rest for a while do you have another project lined up I mean we finished working on chimpenpa quite a long time ago so it's been over a well about a year or something we finished the edit so I am working on other stuff already I can't talk about it I understand that I would imagine if I was Netflix if I was one of the CEOs, I would be in immediate conversation with you about season two.

[579] I think, I think you're very wise.

[580] And I mean, I think we have, we have talked about it with the, the commissioner, Sarah Edelson, who, you know, she loves the series and was behind it from day one.

[581] Shout out to Sarah.

[582] Yeah, shout out Sarah.

[583] And she, we've talked about it.

[584] We talked about it even before we started, actually.

[585] because I think, you know, and she could see the potential, actually, that, you know, that this isn't a, this is a, you know, it's a window of time into the Ngogo group, but they don't stop having interesting stories just because we stopped filming them.

[586] So we sort of knew there was that potential, and there is a kind of a conversation that's sort of bubbling away.

[587] But, you know, I think waiting, I think it is the sensible thing to wait, let this series you know have its impact whatever that will be I like I said I personally love to do it and I think the whole team would be like we can't stop now you know can we because it's still happening at Ngogo that's okay the story for the series is finished but the Ngogo story continues and we've learned so much and all that at the same time there is an argument for saying you know it feels quite definitive and you know people would worry about what we don't want to do is just rehash the same sort of narratives yeah yeah it wouldn't be the same thing because all the chimps get older and new characters want different things and you know and that story happened in that time so everything that happened there won't happen again but still there some you know the experience of watching season one is is it's partly you're following that story but you're also being introduced to the Ngogo Chims and like you're learning about what they do and how they do it, how they relate to each other so there's a lot of that experience which if you did a season two you in a way it would be great because you would jump straight into a story and not have to have as much exposition about the groups but yeah don't know Do you think it should be another one?

[588] Yes.

[589] Yeah, without that, I would watch it.

[590] When an alpha controls the group, how long generally is their reign?

[591] And what happens to them when they get pushed out?

[592] So that's, interestingly, that's different in different chimp groups across Africa.

[593] But at Ngogo, I think like six, seven years is the, the average, like, good tenure.

[594] There have been chimps who have taken the alpha position, but have not done it very well, and have been out after a year.

[595] There's one chimp there, Bartok, who was in charge for 10 years, but he was very successful alpha and very politically astute.

[596] So I think the average at Ngogo is sort of six or seven years.

[597] yeah and that's quite a long it's fascinating because it it's similar to presidential reigns yeah yeah exactly yeah it is interesting i wonder you know it's like the peak of their prime and their control it's like they have a term limit it is interesting because regardless of age as well so it doesn't really feel like yeah there is an there is like at and go go there's there's an average sort of expectancy of alpha ship and i think that's yeah six or seven years and that's why we knew that jackson at the start of um when we were filming we knew that he was entering a period where things could get tricky for him because he'd been in charge for about six years um and it is very interesting that that tends to be the term And the longer the study goes on for, the more interesting those things become.

[598] Because I think in the early days, when they were first observing the chimps, they were like, okay, well, he was in charge for three years.

[599] He was in charge for seven.

[600] And, you know, there didn't seem to be any pattern.

[601] So it was all sort of, well, you're just at the top until someone knocks you off.

[602] But it does seem interesting that they don't see them lasting that much longer.

[603] You know, they expect them not to stay there for much longer.

[604] Is there any evidence that they learn from the chimps that are successful and they mimic this sort of political behavior and sort of like social awareness of keeping everybody happy and sort of like governing and, you know, in a sort of an effective, sort of harmonious way?

[605] Well, whether they see other chimps doing well through that.

[606] I don't know.

[607] I think that's a I think that's a good question.

[608] I don't know the answer to that actually.

[609] I mean, there's certainly, there's leaders in, they adopt different strategies individually and definitely the ones that are better at managing their political relationships and their allies, they stay in power longer and they have an easier time of it.

[610] like Bartok I mean these are chimps that passed long before this series but you would be you'd be interested in it Bartok is a small guy I mean always looked big when he was Alpha because they tend to sort of they just hold themselves differently so they puff their hair out it's called Pilo erect when they stick all that their hair goes on and it literally gives them a different silhouette a different body shape and so when you are Alpha you tend to look bigger anyway but even when he was like that he didn't look as big as the other chimps he was a relatively small chimp but he was the longest serving alpha they've ever had at Ngogo so he was the most successful leader there and it was right at a time when Ngogo was still one massive group so he probably was leader at the time when the group was biggest for the longest period and he was also the smallest guy they've ever had in charge and the They put all that down to he was extremely good at keeping his relationships going with all the other big males.

[611] So all the big guys that could threaten him, he was grooming them all the time, keeping them happy.

[612] Wow.

[613] And what happens to them when they get overthrown?

[614] Did they just assume a lesser position?

[615] They do.

[616] I mean, they, at and go -go, they tend to everything is okay.

[617] after that like they they might get beaten up badly in the overthrow um they might get a bit injured there but it's they've no it's never been lethal at and go go whereas at other sites i've heard the alphas have been killed who and you know they've been they've been killed in in the transfer of power that's never interestingly that's never happened at and go go they you know the incoming that could well be a big fight and some minor injuries but then that's it and there's a new dominance hierarchy established and as long as the outgoing alpha is submitting to the incoming one in the formal way the pank grunt whenever he comes by then that's just okay we've sorted this out we now know like he's on top and the other chimps know and but what happens then is they they can sometimes retain a sort of high position in the hierarchy like miles for instance who's Jackson's giant friend he was alpha for quite a brief period and then I can't remember who was after and then I think could have been Jackson actually you took it off miles miles remains high up there in number two and number three spot he's always remained powerful but some of them you know Bartok I think just after he left the alpha position he just began the trajectory down the hierarchy and just retired he was out of it not competing anymore I'm old I'm done they just accept a new position yeah and they just they really drop down all the way down the hierarchy they're no longer competing in that the higher levels of the dominance hierarchy.

[618] They retire from that.

[619] Are you aware of Robert Sapolsky's work with baboons?

[620] No. Sapolsky spent a lot of time embedded with baboons, and one of the things that he observed that's incredibly unusual, is there was a group of baboons that was eating food that was in garbage, that was from, I believe it was a resort.

[621] And these particularly ruthless alphas who would have first access to all this kind of food, they got poisoned because they ate this bad food and they wound up dying and it completely changed the way they behave with each other.

[622] The ruthless alphas died and all of a sudden it became this sort of utopian civilization amongst baboons where they didn't exhibit any of that barbaric behavior and they were much more kind to each other.

[623] That I didn't know.

[624] That is fascinating and that just shows that the outsized impact some individuals can have on on the overall sort of culture of a group right much like humans yeah yeah and i think the same thing has happened at gogo and lots of different levels like the the the central group ran by jackson there's a lot of competition there's there's not as much play it's all quite quite harsh existence and then the Western group who are much smaller in number they spend much more time playing and socialising and the females in that group have a have a nicer time they get beaten up a lot less often and that doesn't sound like a very nice thing as a positive that oh and the females don't get beaten up as much and like that's a good thing unfortunately in chimpanzee society that just does happen you know and it's not just i mean chimps beat each other up it's a bit of life and the females get um get a part of that as well but interestingly females seem to to love being in in the west and there's quite a lot of incoming feelings into the western group incoming incoming females into the western group so they've got small number of males but a huge number of females and females have left the central group and gone to the west and they play a lot now how did they make transitions from one to the other like if there's a the west group like how does another chimpanzee become embedded in that group well it only it couldn't as a male chimpanzee you can't do that no they're just any male chimpanzee frenzy sort of going over it to the other side would just be met with extreme hostility.

[625] Females, it's part of the sort of natural cycle.

[626] When females reach sexual maturity, they leave the group where they were born.

[627] And it's to, you know, lots of animals do that.

[628] Is it to encourage genetic diversity?

[629] Yeah, exactly.

[630] So same, you know, you see that in quite.

[631] quite a lot of different animal species.

[632] And they do that, you know, 10, 11, whatever, maybe a few years later, but at some point around that period, they will make that change.

[633] And they arrive at a completely different group.

[634] They travel across the forest and they sort of hang around on the edges of that new group and just gradually get accepted in.

[635] but, you know, chimpanzee communities accept females arriving from other groups.

[636] Do other females challenge that?

[637] Do they...

[638] They do.

[639] They generally get a very hard time when they first come to the group, actually.

[640] Partly because the males are all very interested, and, you know, this is, it's a purely positive thing for a new female to arrive at the group.

[641] but the females that are there already will often be quite hostile to that new female for quite a long period of time it's I think you know during our series our filming period one of the females that we knew well left the group where where she was and you sort of you worry about them because it's inevitable that they're going from a place where they know everybody and they're treated relatively well and you know it's their sort of family and social group and then they're traveling across to a group where everybody is sort of hostile but the local females in particular and that might last a while as well um so for the first couple of years even it could be yeah it could be you know quite a nervous anxious existence you're very but yet they're compelled to do it yeah wow yeah now when when they do this to do they ever go back and forth not that i know of no so they they quit that group they join another group and that's where they stay yes wow yeah as far as i know yeah that's it that's the new life in the new group but the interesting thing now in go -go because there's the the former giant and go -go group is now central group and western group so in a way this is going to make transferring as a as an adolescent female a much easier thing to do because they're going to be some of them will transfer from central group to the western group where they know everybody actually because until a few years ago they were part of the same group so that um that's different to before so when the females from the central group go to the western group they know people already or they know excuse me they know chimpanzees already they'll know some of them yeah i mean it's been a it's been a few years um how many it was 2018 oh fairly when when when they finally really split and what was the cause of the split So, I mean, a number of different things that kind of go back quite a few years.

[642] I mean, the sheer size of the group, you know, had never been documented anywhere.

[643] The Ngogo, the numbers of chimpanzees in the Ngogo, the original Ngogo group, are more than twice the size of the next biggest group.

[644] So it was a bit of a mystery how they were holding together anyway.

[645] And also whether they would hold together forever.

[646] Can they really just keep on growing and maintaining, staying as one group?

[647] Bearing in mind, there's still the same sort of social structure.

[648] So you still have a single alpha male.

[649] But the group is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

[650] Even back when I was there in like 2015 previously, so this was before they split.

[651] but at that point I remember Kevin Langergraber one of the scientists that was there at the time he was explaining that actually the Ngogo community is a bit different like they are one group but they have these little subgroups like neighbourhoods within the territory and so they're already describing some of these neighbourhoods as the Easterners and the Westerners and stuff.

[652] They were part of the same group and they the males would patrol the territory together they're on the same team but they hung out in different areas and it was quite you know they'd really have an association with that area that was much stronger and they did think that that was the beginning of sort of okay well we're sort of spending less time with them when we see them we'll groom and it'll be fine but we're gradually spending less time with each other.

[653] And that was sort of the beginning, I think, of these sort of divisions.

[654] And then, I don't know, big, big fights, particularly between Jackson and the other, the what became, the leading Western males.

[655] Yeah, big, big fights there.

[656] I think, contributed to this sort of growing divide.

[657] And then there just came a point in 2018 where the scientists were saying, you know what, they're their properly separate groups.

[658] Now, this is it.

[659] Do any of the females from the Western group go to the central group when they reach sexual maturity?

[660] I don't think that's happened yet.

[661] No. But I think they will expect, I mean, this is all, this is all new because 2018, yeah, I mean, this is the whole thing about this series, which I feel like, you know, asking me, well, I feel, felt lucky.

[662] I mean, I'm very lucky just spent time with the Ngogo Chimps, but at this period is, is fascinating because, you know, brilliant for filming and the potential for interesting story to unfold was, was right there from the start.

[663] but it's also it's scientifically it's unknown territory and the you know we worked with I keep name checking people but it's also reminding me the different roles that they sort of played John Matarney who's one of the main scientists there he was really the one who sort of highlighted when this happened sort of how unique this was going to be and I remember think oh this is amazing uh god what this new thing has happened at ngogo but he was saying well look it course it is fast it's a fascinating thing to happen but now we have two groups that are both completely habituated to human presence and their rivals and so as scientists we can be there and study what happens between these two groups and as filmmakers too you have access to this sort of being on this the two different sides of this chimpanzee rivalry and with equal access.

[664] Now that never happened before because usually chimpanzee groups, the habituated group, the ones that scientists have got used to human presence, you can study them and film them very closely, but the wild chimps, the truly wild, not used to people ones, you can't get close to them as a scientist or as a filmmaker.

[665] You know they're out there.

[666] You can hear them, but you can't get close to them.

[667] So the split presented this fascinating situation scientifically, but also this really unique filming opportunity.

[668] We can literally be embedded in these two different groups.

[669] And nobody knows what's going to happen over the next year or two.

[670] and but we know it's going to be interesting and we know there's sort of there's a new situation here that that yeah anything could happen that sounds like a pitch for season two to me it does because there's so much that could happen yeah there is and honestly yeah it does sound like I want to pitch for season two it is fascinating what's happening there at the minute you would find that personally fascinating oh i'm sure i do i mean just watching it i find it personally fascinating listen uh i just think you did a fantastic job and you should be very proud of it and it's uh as a person who is very fortunate enough to be alive when this is airing on netflix it's it's uh it's really groundbreaking stuff and i i i mean until i understood until i knew the i mean we we kind of watched some of the behind -the -scenes footage but I had no idea how long it took to get these chimps accustomed to the scientists and the camera people being there.

[671] It's just so unique.

[672] Yeah.

[673] That's, you can't underestimate that.

[674] I know it sounds like I'm sort of trying to share credit with them for it, but you just, you cannot underestimate how valuable that is.

[675] Like, that's true of it, almost any well I'll say vast majority of cool things you see captured on film with with animals is okay the film crew did a great job but usually that was because there were years and years and years of sort of scientific work beforehand that even just enabled you to get in a position where you could see it but also to understand it and what was happening and it's so you feel it with the Ngogo Chimps we just felt it from the beginning you feel it every day like all the things that you're wondering about things that amazed me at the start like those are possible because of a like decades of work and decades of tracking and following these chimpanzees in the most responsible way as well so this what would be a sort of fragile relationship between humans our closest relatives all the things that's amazing about it because of what they did over the decades there and everything that we knew about every one of those chimps we were able to study their back before we even went out we could study their backstories like for over 200 chimps detailed information about every chimp when they were born who their relationships were with certain events in their lives any trauma that they'd had who they liked who they didn't like it we've got a proper sense of who each individual Chimp was and all that you know that's just that's all the scientists providing that so yeah I'm not just giving them a shout because I feel like they just it's just if you're actually interested in understanding how that works like that we slid in on the back of that that is how this sort of project works with the access to the chimpanzees but it actually is the access to the scientific project and the Ugandan field track as you do it.

[676] And they've just, you know, they've done it for 30 years.

[677] And then, you know, fortunately, they said to us something really interesting happening and they supported us doing it.

[678] Well, I mean, so fortunate and so unique.

[679] And I remember the first time seeing the very first episode just blown away.

[680] like how how did they do this how they get so close i mean it's like are they using drones i was like do they have camera traps everywhere like how are they doing this it's just so incredible and just so fascinating so unique and congratulations that that means a lot thanks very much oh my pleasure and thank you very much for being here i really really appreciate it and can't recommend it enough chimp air empire chimp empire is on uh netflix right now there's four parts they're all amazing.

[681] You guys nailed it.

[682] It's incredible and I really, really hope you continue to do it.

[683] I really hope you have season two.

[684] I really appreciate it and thanks for having me. My pleasure.

[685] My pleasure.

[686] Do you have social media you want to tell people about?

[687] I don't really, no I'm not big on social media.

[688] Good for you.

[689] Good for you.

[690] Congratulations.

[691] No, not really.

[692] I'll just give my personal email.

[693] Don't do that.

[694] Don't do that.

[695] Unless I mean there's something that someone contribute i don't i don't have any personal uh social media presence whatsoever but there's um i mean there is actually like the the the ingogo chimpanzee project have a facebook page okay and and they sort of yeah and they're very good they kind of they get the things that the people from from the public will be interested in they post things about what's happening at uh at And at Ngogo.

[696] So people who are genuinely interested in what's happening with the Ngogo Chimps, there's a Facebook page.

[697] Okay.

[698] So we'll send it to there.

[699] Thank you very much.

[700] Really, really appreciate it.

[701] Thank you.

[702] Thank you.

[703] Cheers.

[704] Bye, everybody.