'The Interview': Vince Vaughn Turned This Interview Into Self-Help

[0] From the New York Times, this is the interview.

[1] I'm David Marquesi.

[2] One of the great things about my job is that I get to talk with people whose work I love.

[3] But as much as I love that, the even greater thing about my job is when those people and what they want to talk about surprise me. It doesn't happen often.

[4] It did happen with Vince Vaughn.

[5] The Vince Vaughn in my head is the charismatic guys guy from all those raunchy comedies of the early 2000s, old school, dodgeball, wedding crashers.

[6] And of course, we can't forget swingers.

[7] I'd argue there's a whole generation of men who basically tried to steal Vaughn's Neo Rat Pack vibe from that movie.

[8] Since those films, really after the R -rated comedies that Vaughn made his name with kind of lost their cultural mojo, he's turned his focus more to dramatic work, like the second season of True Detective and his more recent performances in the brutal crime films of director S. Craig Zoller.

[9] And as good as Vaughn was with that kind of material, I just never connected those moody anti -heroes to the guy playing them.

[10] So ahead of our interview, I made what is perhaps the common journalist mistake of expecting to talk with the guy from those comedies, the sarcastic, quick -witted, basically lighthearted Vince Vaughn.

[11] And that's also partly because his newest role, as a wise -ass former detective in the Apple TV Plus series, Bad Monkey, felt to me like an intentional update of his comedy persona.

[12] But what I was expecting from Vaughn wasn't what I got.

[13] Instead, I got something more challenging and more earnest, which is to say I got a surprise.

[14] Here's my conversation with Vince Vaughn.

[15] I want to ask you about Bad Monkey.

[16] So this, to my mind, would fit, like, within the R -rated comedy kind of world.

[17] And my understanding is that Hollywood doesn't really know what to do with R -rated comedies anymore.

[18] Why do you think that they've become harder for Hollywood to crack with audiences?

[19] When you talk about the R -comodies in Hollywood, I feel like there's always these set of rules that get handed down like they come in stone.

[20] that the executives follow.

[21] Generationally, they change, but their goal is not to get fired in my mind's eye, that they can defend why they greenlit something.

[22] And everyone's looking for the answer.

[23] Who doesn't want to be an expert or be right?

[24] So I think that they've outthought themselves.

[25] And the R comedies, which took off, was really the studio saying to young people that were funny, go ahead.

[26] They didn't micromanage.

[27] Like, we were on the sets changing lines and trying to make each other laugh.

[28] And I think it's not done as well by committee.

[29] It's good to get a group of people and kind of let them go and play.

[30] And I think they started managing everything too much and trying to control it all.

[31] I think an undercurrent to that answer is that the studios or the powers at B got timid.

[32] And the question that is raised for me, based on what you said, is how much of that timidity...

[33] is also the result of a changed cultural context.

[34] Like, do you think the culture has changed such that the kinds of movies that were your bread and butter for a while there are just not in vogue anymore or the studios don't quite feel comfortable making those kinds of comedies?

[35] Not at all.

[36] I mean, they're still culturally in vogue.

[37] I mean, look at the stand -up comics.

[38] Why is the audience gravitating to those comics that are challenging with the things that they're doing and funny?

[39] How does that square the ratings and the numbers and the things that are said?

[40] How does that square?

[41] You know, you have people that are there that are open to these ideas and having fun and pushing the envelope and people are watching it.

[42] So that would answer the question.

[43] for anybody that there's an appetite and people enjoy it and that there's the people got timid is the right answer.

[44] And the people that got timid knew better.

[45] It wasn't like they felt righteous like this was somehow wrong.

[46] It's just the pressures of the moment.

[47] They were already in the door working.

[48] What do you mean by the pressures of the moment?

[49] The culture didn't change.

[50] You know, human beings are the same now.

[51] Human nature as when the myths were written.

[52] There's no difference.

[53] And part of going and having stories and storytelling and songs, you know, to explore these ideas and allow those feelings, certain feelings or emotions to come to the forefront are super important, actually, because they exist in all of us.

[54] You know, like the Shell Silverstein song, Boy Name Sue, that Johnny Cash made famous, the want to kill your parent because of something they did younger with a name, you know, is something that could exist inside people.

[55] I don't know that we have to boycott that song because Shell Silverstein or Johnny Cash are encouraging the murdering of parents for mistakes.

[56] It's an insane thought process.

[57] But, I mean, it's a simple concept.

[58] But I don't know that boy named Sue was ever out of vogue.

[59] I think there might have been people who were overthinking it or having an ego of such that they could control the world.

[60] Also, just to be clear, I don't think anybody's trying to cancel a boy named Sue, but sort of the thing you're dancing around is a little bit like sort of the cancel culture impulse.

[61] And so do you think that there are stories and ideas that are not getting told that you think should be getting told?

[62] No, I'm not dancing around it.

[63] I think, and I don't think there was ever a canceling.

[64] I think there was a moment of certain people feeling like they could be the judge and jury of what is a story or what's too far.

[65] You know, that's, I think sometimes that in their attempt to cancel stuff, they made it bigger.

[66] It's a crazy thing as human beings to think that my ideas are the best.

[67] And if I can just force people to do what I believe in the world will be great.

[68] And I think the place for stories for campfires and always were people who went out into the woods and came back and challenged us with these ideas and these things.

[69] And I think that that's important.

[70] But yeah, I don't need someone to take a book off the shelf.

[71] I think I should be allowed to choose what I read and what I don't read.

[72] And I also think...

[73] That's part of the journey is exploring these things.

[74] And if we take away the ability for people to dive into and embrace these feelings and concepts, it's not our place to do so.

[75] What's an example of something that you saw or read that challenged you and opened up your mind or opened up your range of thought?

[76] Yeah.

[77] I mean, I remember it started with literature.

[78] I read books a lot younger.

[79] What stuff?

[80] The Body by Stephen King.

[81] But the one by Stephen King that really blew me away was rage.

[82] That's the one about...

[83] That's the school shooter.

[84] Yes, exactly.

[85] Exactly.

[86] I read it when I was a freshman in high school, but it was about a kid who was disenfranchised.

[87] And takes his class hostage.

[88] He takes his class hostage.

[89] And it was like the breakfast club.

[90] but like a darker R -rated version because he kind of holds the class hostage after shooting the teacher.

[91] And he sort of says, you know, we were friends younger.

[92] And now you don't even look at me in the hallway, the captain of the team, the kid that's kind of the outsider, the cheerleader, this girl.

[93] And he sort of goes in this short story and is sort of challenging these social dynamics that have occurred once kids get to high school.

[94] And I thought it was a really powerful story.

[95] And I was of the age where these things were actually happening.

[96] And so how did it change you?

[97] It just gave me perspective on in the same way that like sometimes someone in a different avenue is hurting and not what they seem to you.

[98] You know, it's one of the great things about the John Hughes movies, which I think was lost on the movies, the teenage movies that came after him.

[99] In the John Hughes movies, if you use Breakfast Club as an example, they all arc and transform to realize that they're complete human beings.

[100] They're not just the jock or not just the homecoming queen or the weird girl or the geek.

[101] And the reason those endure, I don't think they've ever gone out of vogue.

[102] I think all of those movies still play.

[103] And I think they play for everybody.

[104] I think they play for all people from wherever they're from because I think that they're investigating and exploring in a comedic way, there are truth, which is that, you know, sometimes we fall into a group because of our experiences or our circumstances.

[105] Sometimes we're afraid of others and, you know, people are hurting and protecting themselves.

[106] But in truth, there's more of a shared experience.

[107] and more in common than not.

[108] I think, you know, your argument is that people are still seeing those movies because they have themes that continue to resonate.

[109] Even though we might think the culture is changing, there are sort of verities in those films that resonate with people.

[110] I guess I'm not having an argument.

[111] It's not an argument.

[112] It's more so an observation of reality that in that movie, those characters from other backgrounds find...

[113] a moment of acceptance and perspective on each other.

[114] But they start very opposed.

[115] So it's less of an argument and it's more of saying...

[116] The purpose of songs and music or any of this stuff, really, and it's the place to do it in.

[117] It's a place to express yourself and to give over to emotions and feelings or a journey of life.

[118] So it's less of an argument, truly, and more of a response to the line of what we're talking about, which is nothing has changed except you have a bunch of dumb people, who think that they are somehow more righteous than their neighbor who are going to impose through force that it's somehow bad to explore human beings that are in the extremes.

[119] And this is sort of a heavier question.

[120] But I was thinking about that period, I would say like basically from old school maybe to couples retreat.

[121] When it was just, stuff was really connecting.

[122] It seemed like one after another.

[123] And in that time, you did a couple films with Owen Wilson.

[124] Yes.

[125] So at the time, your career was really going gangbusters.

[126] He was really struggling personally.

[127] And I know you guys were friends.

[128] And there was a suicide attempt.

[129] to be having the personal success while your pal is sort of at a low ebb, like, does that teach you something or show you something about like the meaninglessness of success?

[130] Well, I adore, and I think he's not only super funny and smart, but he's very empathetic.

[131] But as far as success, it depends on your definition of it.

[132] I never saw success as the results.

[133] If you feel like you were engaged and you did your best and you feel good about it, sometimes the results aren't there, but you feel good because you got better.

[134] And sometimes you could get results, but you weren't really growing.

[135] And I say this to you, like, as a parent looking at kids, you know, whether they're trying to cut their food, they're not going to get a result of a smooth, you know, cutting of food at five.

[136] But if they're trying their hardest and you encourage them and they make mistakes and they feel and you're telling them you did great because you really, you know, I saw you holding your fork and you lined your knife up, you were successful today.

[137] What a great job.

[138] I want you to get more personal, though.

[139] Give me something tangible.

[140] Okay.

[141] Pick any area you want.

[142] I'll pick two.

[143] Okay.

[144] So first, let's start with filmmaking.

[145] Like, what's something that you, you know, you weren't good at, and then you tried it and the results were not good, and then you got better at.

[146] Okay.

[147] I would say everything, like every aspect of it, acting on camera, learning to really just talk to the person as if there wasn't cameras there, memorizing dialogue.

[148] Now it's very easy for me, but when I started, it was hard.

[149] I think it is, for all actors, it's the process because it's the only way we do learn.

[150] And the second example I was looking for is in your life, what's something that you weren't good at that you've improved at?

[151] Everything again.

[152] Oh, don't say everything again.

[153] Kill it me. Well, no. Well, I can pick any aspect of it.

[154] There's a pick one.

[155] Pick one and burrow into that baby.

[156] Okay.

[157] Something in my personal life I felt that I wasn't good at.

[158] Yeah.

[159] God, there's just, I just, my mind goes to just, there's not an area I was good at.

[160] Yeah.

[161] Giving a speech publicly was scary to me. I was nervous to, if I had to stand up and share something, or something as simple as letting a girl know that I liked her.

[162] Rejection.

[163] My point is, You have to take the focus off yourself, evaluating yourself negatively.

[164] You have to then say, find in it.

[165] Why is it worth it to do this?

[166] Like, how do I take those things that are a challenge and use those to get better to make them a strength?

[167] And I got to get started and it's okay if it goes bad or it doesn't go well.

[168] I can't cheat the process of trying.

[169] If I'm somehow being less personal or feeling you, I'm not aware of how.

[170] I guess, yeah, I guess I was just, in a way, both the personal and professional examples felt general rather than specific.

[171] I'll give you one then from a professional point of view of, so in swingers when we were shooting and we got cameras, the idea was to just talk and to improvise and not feel so precious.

[172] And I learned that if you had one camera on both of you, and a master shot, or if you had two cameras set up at the time, we could make it conversational and step on each other as long as we were listening.

[173] And I didn't really understand that until we made that movie.

[174] Yeah, yeah.

[175] Wait, you know what I was looking at?

[176] I was reading old magazine cover stories of you.

[177] Yes.

[178] Wait, this is look, I'll even show you.

[179] This is Details Magazine.

[180] Yes.

[181] 2001 smoldering on the front there.

[182] If you say so.

[183] The GQ, look at that one.

[184] Yeah.

[185] That's very Brando, the cover there, right?

[186] I guess.

[187] And then there's, I'll spare you, the other details magazine cover in 1997.

[188] But the...

[189] What is it?

[190] Put it out.

[191] Oh, no, it just, I don't know.

[192] You really want to...

[193] Okay, there you go.

[194] There's 1997 details.

[195] Going back and reading those is interesting because the picture that they paint of you is like a...

[196] you know, rabble -rouser, uh, guy's guy.

[197] You know, I think every one of those stories involves a scene at a bar where you and the writer are drinking or something like that.

[198] And, uh, it was interesting to me because I thought, are they unable to separate Vince Fawn, the guy from the kind of characters, or basically from the swingers character?

[199] Or is that how you were at that time?

[200] Yeah.

[201] You know, I think I had a lot of sides to myself.

[202] I was definitely a guy that enjoyed going out with friends, and we would definitely go out to bars.

[203] But, you know, I was also an actor who loved to read and watch things.

[204] And, you know, there's a lot of sides.

[205] So to your point, you might be right that the writer's picking to meet me at a location and...

[206] They're selling a magazine.

[207] And so, you know, they're saying, hey, let's meet here or do this.

[208] You know, a lot of times they would say, we're going to pick a location or a place, but have it be a bar or a restaurant.

[209] So there's that.

[210] But, yeah, I mean, I definitely had sides of me. I think I've had a very unique life.

[211] I had a lot of very extreme experiences that I think just gave me perspectives and worlds that, We're very unique.

[212] Can you share one of those with me?

[213] What was one of those extreme?

[214] My grandparents, both sides were just from different extreme backgrounds.

[215] And then my one grandfather was an Italian immigrant from Naples, who I think only went to school till he was eight.

[216] And he owned like a small carnival park.

[217] He was a jeweler.

[218] He was a pawn shop broker.

[219] He wasn't around my mom very much.

[220] My mom was raised by a single mom.

[221] She supported all the kids by herself, no money and had a beauty salon.

[222] And then my dad's father, Vaughn, which has been in America from the beginning, he was a sharecropper and a steel worker and had a 100 -acre farm.

[223] And then his wife was Lebanese, Christian Lebanese.

[224] My dad was the first to go to college and his family.

[225] and worked really hard.

[226] And then I kind of ascended from like, you know, growing up, you know, in apartments and then ended up in an upper class suburb with a really good public education, starting when I was eight.

[227] So I just had a lot of exposure to very different things and very different perspectives of people and different worldviews.

[228] And so I think I was shaped by all of that.

[229] And I think, you know, going back to the Breakfast Club, If we may, you're talking about an archetype that they're presenting.

[230] That's a side of me, but it's not the whole story.

[231] So I just always had these different kinds of interest, you know?

[232] How do you think your sort of the extremes of your background might have influenced your politics?

[233] Are you libertarian?

[234] I guess the tapes, yes.

[235] I definitely am a believer more in allowing individuals to make choices.

[236] Yeah.

[237] So like I think that drugs should be legal.

[238] And I think people should have guns.

[239] So I kind of, for people making choices, empowering that.

[240] But inform my politics and so much that I realized that you had different camps and cultures that people from that camp would feel strong about.

[241] Like the hippies would get high and say, we're not hurting anyone.

[242] What's the big deal?

[243] And then the hunters would say, you know, we have these guns and, you know, we have a right to defend ourselves.

[244] And what's the big deal?

[245] And they were kind of the same.

[246] Well, both guns and weed are not exactly the same.

[247] Well, I'll tell you why I think it is the same.

[248] The fear is if someone gets high that they're going to do something or could hurt people, where sometimes they just go to bed.

[249] They're not really, you know, you know what I mean?

[250] It's not like they're going out.

[251] And the fear with if someone has a gun, they might hurt somebody.

[252] But sometimes they're just hunting and, you know, using it and shooting and they're not.

[253] They never do.

[254] And so what I realized is is that we're so shaped by our environments and where we're from.

[255] I think even in parenting, like sometimes people parent the way their parents did.

[256] Or in a reaction to it.

[257] Well, I find it to be more complicated than that.

[258] Yeah, in a reaction, but I find it complicated.

[259] I'll finish the political thing because I think you're interested.

[260] I'll go to the other.

[261] I'd rather say let people make their choices and they can make different choices and have the consequences of their choices.

[262] Right.

[263] Does politics come up in Hollywood?

[264] I mean, I think there's an idea.

[265] Maybe it's a straw man, but like a criticism of it would be that it's sort of overly woke or too concerned about political correctness.

[266] Do you feel like that's something that you've ever actually experienced or have come up against it or witnessed?

[267] Oh, for sure there has been.

[268] Yeah.

[269] So what would that be?

[270] Yeah.

[271] I don't know if I could tie it to politics.

[272] I mean, it's so fucking boring.

[273] But yes, anyone into censorship...

[274] Or banning stuff is, I don't know, and it's never been anything I think is cool.

[275] I mean, I loved hearing when I was a kid how exciting that NWA came out and that they weren't trying to fit on a radio or guns and roses or, you know, raging against the machine.

[276] I like stuff that was provocative and challenging and committed to a point of view.

[277] That's rock and roll.

[278] That's comedy.

[279] That's art. I think the politics stuff is, you know, it's important.

[280] You should pay attention.

[281] You should hear different ideas.

[282] I don't know anyone that feels the same at 60 that did at 20.

[283] You don't think so?

[284] No, fuck no. Fuck, no. There's no way.

[285] But there's lifetime.

[286] I hate to bring about to politics, but there's lifetime Republican voters as lifetime Democrat voters.

[287] You know, there's people's religious beliefs.

[288] I think I don't know that those really ebb and flow that widely over the course of someone's lifetime.

[289] Who the fuck doesn't go through life and one year after the year say, fuck, I was on the wrong course?

[290] Or I thought I had it figured out, but now I didn't know anything.

[291] I just think it's crazy.

[292] What are you wrong about?

[293] You know, if I am wrong about stuff, I'm not aware of it because I try to reflect on process and evolve it.

[294] You know, I find, and I know that I'm not 100 % right, but I do know that it doesn't come from not thinking about it and trying to course correct.

[295] So I've never come out of any project or interpersonal relationship or ideas on something and not evolved.

[296] Right.

[297] Vince, I think we're getting the nudge from your publicist.

[298] Do you have time for one or two more?

[299] Yeah, I do.

[300] I have time, Lauren.

[301] I feel like we're just got somewhere good and now we're ending.

[302] But that's why I get to talk to you again on Monday.

[303] Yeah, go ahead.

[304] You know, when I was looking back through your IMDB credits, I saw that, you know, really the last few years, you know, aside from popping up on as Freddie Funkhouser on Curb Your Enthusiasm, you really...

[305] haven't been around that much.

[306] Why is that?

[307] Did you want to take a break?

[308] Were you feeling burned out or just doing other things?

[309] Well, you know, it's funny.

[310] I actually have three things in the can.

[311] Like we shot Bad Monkey a while ago, and then there was the strike.

[312] And so the release date is later than what was intended, because I shot this a little while ago.

[313] And then I have two movies in the can.

[314] I just, I did a movie called Nona's.

[315] And again, then was pushed with the strike.

[316] And then same with, I just did a movie with Al Pacino and Simon Rex, Kate Morrow, who's terrific, called Easy's Wall.

[317] So I actually have quite a few things completed.

[318] But I definitely got more selective, I think, in being a parent and enjoying that process.

[319] I really was more picky.

[320] And I also wanted to do things, again, than I felt were...

[321] things that I hadn't done in recent time.

[322] For me, it's like you want to ride every ride at the amusement park.

[323] You want to try different things and get out of, it's fun kind of when your feet can't touch the bottom of the ocean.

[324] You're a little over your ski.

[325] So you want to try to grow.

[326] You want to put yourself in situations maybe where you haven't done something before.

[327] What rides are still left?

[328] Oh, you know, I think there's always, you know, different things to, depending on where you're at, to get engaged in.

[329] And also other sides of it, you know, directing, producing, different budgets.

[330] And then also, you know, for me, really being a parent has just been such a joy.

[331] Do you have kids?

[332] Two, yeah.

[333] How old?

[334] Seven and nine, two girls.

[335] Oh, wow.

[336] Yeah, man. You get it.

[337] I have a 13 -year -old and a 10 -year -old, boy and girl.

[338] Oh, there you go.

[339] How has that changed you?

[340] How has fatherhood changed me?

[341] You know, gosh, I feel weird saying this stuff when we're sort of at the end of the clock.

[342] We got time.

[343] I can push it.

[344] I got time.

[345] I got nowhere to go.

[346] I'm fine.

[347] Also, there's nothing that the listeners are going to be more interested in hearing in an interview with Vince Vaughn than how fatherhood changed the interviewer guy.

[348] Than yourself, but it is.

[349] But it is a conversation, right?

[350] This is a conversation.

[351] So I don't feel like it changed me in any fundamental ways.

[352] Interesting.

[353] If anything, it foregrounded thoughts and feelings that were already there.

[354] I felt very ready and comfortable as a father.

[355] There are other things in my life that changed me in fundamental ways much more than Fatherhood.

[356] What about you?

[357] Well, let me ask you this to that point.

[358] Yeah.

[359] And being a teacher and someone who's kind of guiding someone, do you feel that your process or approach has changed as time has gone on?

[360] Yeah, yes, but I think in basically in ways this makes me sound like a Colts, like Spock -like person, and this is not how I mean it.

[361] People love Spock, by the way, very popular character.

[362] You can't have Captain Kirk without Spock, so please continue.

[363] Also, you're going to have to answer these questions, too.

[364] I will.

[365] I don't know.

[366] I feel like the differences in this regard have had mostly to do with...

[367] having to understand, like, where my kids are cognitively at the time I'm trying to teach them a given lesson.

[368] So the best example of this would be my mom just passed away and, like, thinking about how to sort of bring my children into that reality.

[369] Like, how do a nine -year -old and a seven -year -old...

[370] process what it means to have grandma not around anymore.

[371] It's been different for the nine -year -old and the seven -year -old because they're just at different places emotionally and cognitively.

[372] So I've had to be aware of that.

[373] But that's really more trying to respond to where they are and less about like, oh, I have some new theory of teaching or parenting.

[374] Sorry to hear about the passing of your mom.

[375] That's never easy.

[376] I appreciate that.

[377] And that's hard.

[378] Yeah.

[379] I think what you're saying is right.

[380] I guess for me, the way I interpret it, because I would feel similar to you, except I'll tell you, is having a daughter first, you realize how far behind boys are.

[381] It's like, you know, my daughter would sit and listen, and your son's trying to, you know, put a fork in an electrical outlet.

[382] You know, it's like just very, very different.

[383] But yes.

[384] And how did fatherhood change you?

[385] I think it's why I was able to define success even more so, you know, understanding how to motivate a kid to keep trying and also allow them to be who they are.

[386] Like, you know, you want a kid to be productive and do stuff that's going to build self -esteem, but they don't have to do all things in all areas, you know?

[387] So I don't know that I've changed as far as like, oh, I was cold and callous and now I've learned to love.

[388] I think it's just made me...

[389] more empathetic, more patient, maybe have more tools at encouraging, just because the nature of the job.

[390] Yeah.

[391] Could you encourage me?

[392] What area would you like encouragement in?

[393] You seem pretty self -assured, which is a good thing.

[394] Is there an area you feel like you need encouragement?

[395] Yeah.

[396] I feel like there were places we could have gotten to in this interview that I'm hoping we'd get to in the second interview, that I could have pushed you on harder, that I was not...

[397] I was chickening out a little bit.

[398] Well, don't chicken out.

[399] Go ahead and you can ask what you want.

[400] But I would say to you, my thought for you to reflect it would be...

[401] Where you think on your own personal journey, being a caretaker for the kids and being there for them, where you think that you might have had shifts in either how you saw yourself or how you saw the world?

[402] That's yourself.

[403] That would ask you to reflect on that.

[404] That's my homework.

[405] I'm going to reflect on that.

[406] Just part of our ongoing conversation is where do you think potentially you have shifted perspectives from that experience?

[407] Okay, so I'm, before we reconvene next week, nothing says flying off the shelf like parenting skills.

[408] Are you kidding me?

[409] That stuff does ganglusters.

[410] Deeply wrong about that.

[411] But Vince, I'll talk to you in a couple of days.

[412] I am going to go think about these things.

[413] Good.

[414] And thank you for taking all the time.

[415] I appreciate it.

[416] My pleasure, brother.

[417] Great to speak to you.

[418] I'll talk to you soon.

[419] Coming up, I stopped chickening out and ask Vince Vaughn my real questions.

[420] Hello?

[421] Hey, it's David.

[422] Hey, buddy.

[423] How are you?

[424] I'm doing good.

[425] How are you?

[426] Doing great, thanks.

[427] Good.

[428] So, Vince, I feel like we got so much to talk about this time.

[429] So I had said to you towards the end of our first conversation that I felt like I chickened out a couple times.

[430] So I want to go back to some of the questions that I felt like in the moment I soft peddled.

[431] Okay.

[432] Okay.

[433] So the first one is I had asked you about whether it was difficult for your career to be going like gangbusters at the same time Owen Wilson was struggling personally.

[434] And, you know, and you gave an answer that was all about how one defines success.

[435] But I...

[436] And I'm not asking for gossip about Owen Wilson or anything private about him.

[437] I'm just trying to understand what the emotional dynamics of that moment were for you.

[438] Like, as a human, was it difficult to wrap your head around the experience of doing so well while a friend was struggling?

[439] Yeah, I just think it's a strange thing to ask somebody.

[440] Yeah, I just was, you know, I love Owen.

[441] I think he's super talented.

[442] It's really not my place to comment or speculate on, you know, whatever was going on with him.

[443] Yeah.

[444] You know, other than I think he's terrific.

[445] And then as I, as you were saying, you know, as my career was going with success or whatever, I was really, you know, honest when I said, I really define success the only way that I think you can, which is, by, you know, attempting your best approach or attempt to whatever you're doing.

[446] You want to know the real reason I was asking that question?

[447] Yeah, please, please.

[448] It was, you know, about five years ago, I lost my best friend to suicide, and everything was going great for me. But there was a part of me that always wondered if I was somehow not seeing what was going on with him because things were sort of going so well for me. And I wondered if there was, you know, if I could have had a different perspective on that moment.

[449] I think I would have, I would say that's really where the, sort of human, on the most base human level.

[450] I think that's a common feeling anytime you lose somebody in life, even if it's, you know, something that happens by accident.

[451] Did I spend enough time?

[452] Was I connected?

[453] I mean, I don't ever think that that's not, you know, part of the process of going through any sort of, in your case, actually losing your friend.

[454] But I would also say to you that you're not usually that, you know, powerful or to be able to come in and fix everybody's stuff all the time.

[455] Yeah.

[456] You know, like there's a sense of self, I think, that feels like, oh, if I could have done all of these things, I could have made that person different.

[457] I think, you know, parents go through that as we were talking and you were sort of suggesting that, you know, you've kind of been consistent that you haven't learned as much from it.

[458] But I think as parents, you do realize one thing I can say I've learned is that sometimes people have to go through their experiences.

[459] Some kids are going to take more reps at, you know, listening or...

[460] you know, other functional skills is, you know, we're limited, I think, in the ability to change others.

[461] Yeah.

[462] And, you know, you, I want to go back to the parenting thing.

[463] You know, that was my reflection assignment, and I did reflect on that, but I want to go back to it in a little bit.

[464] Sure.

[465] But before then, you know, you had brought up that Stephen King novel rage as sort of being formative for you, which is about a school shooter type.

[466] Yes.

[467] Yes.

[468] And you had also...

[469] talked with me, and you've talked elsewhere about sort of being a Second Amendment guy, you know, saying people should have access to guns.

[470] And, you know, King himself has advocated for more gun control.

[471] And I think he actually let that book go out of print because he was worried about its negative influence.

[472] But America already has way more guns than any other similarly developed country and also more gun violence.

[473] Like, that's just the cost of doing business in American society.

[474] Like, help me understand your logic for why...

[475] There shouldn't be more.

[476] You know, it's interesting.

[477] I don't see other actors who say they believe in gun control getting asked it every time they do an interview.

[478] So there's certainly that somehow becomes a, you know, a focal point.

[479] But I think if you're someone who, like you said, you can't get your mind around it.

[480] It's, it's, I don't know if I'll satisfy your, your, your concept with it.

[481] But the basic idea, it's just a DNA concept that the individual is free and has a right to protect themselves.

[482] You get asked that a lot.

[483] I try and ask questions that people don't get asked a lot.

[484] No, I think there's a consistency with it.

[485] You know, I think people, you know, going back to stuff that you said earlier, I think you kind of answer it with this.

[486] It's like that becomes a focal point for anybody who dares to not go with whatever the group think of the moment is.

[487] I want to go back and now to the homework assignment, the additional reflection, right?

[488] So the question was, you know, how has fatherhood shifted my perspective?

[489] Yes.

[490] And...

[491] I think I came up with two answers that I'm going to tell you.

[492] Okay.

[493] So the first answer is I really think that having kids, so corny, it's almost hard to say out loud, but it showed me that my capacity for love was deeper than I had previously understood it to be.

[494] And that's my first answer.

[495] How would you define love?

[496] Okay.

[497] Oh, gosh, that's a great question.

[498] It's like an intense feeling of connection and desire for the other's well -being.

[499] Sounds pretty good, right?

[500] Yeah, I think it's something that never ends.

[501] I think we keep evolving and trying to reflect on these things.

[502] What is love, you know?

[503] It's an ongoing exploration as people.

[504] And I think having that in your life, you know, obviously helps you connect in so many different ways to so many different things and opening you up and realizing sometimes that, you know, there's things that we hold more dear than just our own lives.

[505] We're fully in the men's group portion of the discussion.

[506] But the other, the other...

[507] No, I think it's for all people.

[508] You know, I think to love something that much, I mean, country, God...

[509] your children, a spouse, a friendship, you know, all those things is sort of that connection to love.

[510] It's so powerful.

[511] And I think when you love something that strongly, you're able to forgive things as well.

[512] And that the second answer that I came up with?

[513] Yes.

[514] Was that...

[515] I think it made me think more deeply about what I actually wanted from life.

[516] Because, you know, when my kids were really little, like, you know, toddlers and younger, I was really unhappy with the job I had at the time and the work I was doing.

[517] And I was just bringing it home every day, like moping around, you know.

[518] And then I thought, I do not want my kids to grow up with...

[519] a grouchy dad who's irritated and sullen because of the work that he's doing.

[520] And so I did then consciously think, I have to change this situation.

[521] And I did.

[522] So that's the other big change.

[523] But I really respect you for that.

[524] And I do think that that's something that the kids bring a mirror to and reflect.

[525] It's also like those kids are looking at you and you realize one of the biggest ways they're going to learn.

[526] It's not our speech in the car to and from school, but by actions, by what you do.

[527] Yeah.

[528] Do you think having the children...

[529] Why are you so interested in questions about fatherhood?

[530] Well, just I'm interested in what you're sharing.

[531] I think you're being genuine.

[532] And so I was curious, how did having kids affect your process with dealing with the loss of someone?

[533] Oh, I don't know if I would connect the kids to it.

[534] The things I would say about that is, you know, it's, you know, losing my best friend.

[535] And then I had mentioned, you know, losing my mom.

[536] Like, you actually realize, you know, you don't get to live forever.

[537] You know, I can be outside in a way now and see the hydrangeas in front of my house.

[538] and appreciate how beautiful they are because I know that people who I love will never get to have that appreciation ever again.

[539] So it just makes sort of the daily going about of my life more beautiful and meaningful in a way that I just didn't have those feelings before.

[540] And I don't, and maybe that extends to kids a little bit and sort of there's little things that they do that I sort of appreciate in the moment.

[541] Like, you know, the...

[542] you know, to know that my mom is not going to see these little things that my kids do that I take such pleasure in and that she would also have taken pleasure in.

[543] It makes those little things even more profound and moving than I think they would have otherwise been.

[544] I think that's beautiful.

[545] I think, and I think it's painful and it's hard, but those are the gifts that come out of it.

[546] And I don't know that it would be so hard if you didn't love and care so much is what makes it so hard.

[547] This is easily the weirdest celebrity interview of all time now.

[548] It's a bad monkey starring Vince Vaughn, premiering this month on Apple TV.

[549] I don't know.

[550] It feels like a genuine conversation and reflection, and you're sharing stuff, you know, that I've been through too, which is, you know, loss and life.

[551] I mean, isn't that ultimately what we're exploring through song and stories and...

[552] You know, sometimes we have to go through these things to get to get to the other side.

[553] There's a journey.

[554] It's not, we don't always start at the place of enlightenment.

[555] Vince, thank you very much for taking all the time to talk with me and to answer the questions.

[556] My man, I appreciate you.

[557] Take care.

[558] That's Vince Vaughn.

[559] Bad Monkey starts streaming on Apple TV Plus on August 14th.

[560] If you are having thoughts of suicide, call or text 988 to reach the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline or go to speakingofsuicide .com slash resources for a list of additional resources.

[561] This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly.

[562] It was edited by Annabelle Bacon.

[563] Mixing by Dan Powell and Afim Shapiro.

[564] Original music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, and Marion Lozano.

[565] Photography by Devin Yalkin.

[566] Our senior Booker is Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orm.

[567] Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

[568] Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik.

[569] If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the interview wherever you get your podcasts.

[570] And to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes .com slash the interview.

[571] Email us anytime at the interview at nytimes .com.

[572] Next week, my co -host Lulu Garcia Navarro speaks with Republican Senator James Lankford.

[573] I have folks that will tell me when President Trump was president, okay, he's the boss.

[574] And I would say, no, he's not.

[575] He's a co -equal branch.

[576] I don't work for the president.

[577] I work for the people of Oklahoma.

[578] I'm David Marquesi, and this is the interview from The New York Times.