S2 E7: Somebody I Love is So Sick

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and could be triggering to some.

[11] Please use discretion when listening.

[12] On a personal note, sadly, this past Saturday, my father -in -law, Papa, passed away suddenly.

[13] He was the only real dad I've ever had, and his impact, both on myself and those who I love dearly, will go on forever.

[14] My father -in -law was a dog trainer, and yesterday my favorite dog of his Maya passed away and went to go be with Papa.

[15] I want to dedicate this episode to both of them.

[16] They always made me feel loved, safe, and cared for.

[17] Thank you.

[18] In an article written by John Snook, executive director of the Treatment Advocacy Center, that he wrote for Variety in Rolling Stone for a special series entitled American Injustice, which is linked in the show notes, of course.

[19] He writes, An estimated 8 .3 million adults in the United States have a severe mental illness.

[20] At any given time, 3 .9 million go untreated.

[21] With medication and other support services, those with severe mental illness are no more dangerous than anyone else, capable of leading happy and productive lives.

[22] Without treatment, their prospects worsen.

[23] Yet the odds are stacked against these individuals.

[24] Our health care system actively denies them care, and we criminalize the symptoms of their diseases.

[25] When someone has a heart attack, an ambulance takes them to an emergency room.

[26] When someone is in the depths of psychosis, however, police are called and frequently cart that person off to jail.

[27] Without treatment, those with severe mental illness experience a host of negative consequences.

[28] Many take their own lives.

[29] Others face a shortened lifespan due to much increased risk of other chronic health conditions.

[30] Ultimately, those with severe mental illness die on average 25 years earlier than their peers.

[31] Others are lost to the streets.

[32] Conservative estimates suggest that one quarter of the homeless population suffers from a severe mental illness.

[33] In 2017, that amounted to 138, 435 individuals on a single night.

[34] Although common arrests for so -called quality of life crimes like loitering and public urination, behaviors that are triggered by illness, not criminal intent.

[35] As a result, incarceration has become the norm for those with severe mental illness.

[36] 40 % of them are incarcerated at some point in their lives.

[37] 2 million are booked into jails each year.

[38] The Treatment Advocacy Center estimates that 383 ,000 individuals with severe mental illnesses were incarcerated in 2016, although many belonged in hospitals instead.

[39] But jails are the worst place to provide mental health treatment.

[40] Would -be patients are isolated.

[41] They deteriorate, are victimized, and receive inadequate care.

[42] Their symptoms result in additional offenses and time behind bars.

[43] A 2018 national investigation revealed that since 2010, more than 400 people with mental illness have died in our nation's jails.

[44] According to the National Institute of Mental Health, mental illnesses are common in the United States, affecting tens of millions of people each year.

[45] Estimates suggest that only half of the people with mental illness receive treatment.

[46] Nearly one in five U .S. adults live with a mental illness, 46 .6 million in 2017.

[47] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is, something was wrong.

[48] mental health is so it's such a problem in the United States right now people can't get help and that I remember when she was really sick and saying that she didn't want to live anymore and I tried to call around to get her counseling and you can't I couldn't I couldn't find anywhere that would talk to her or take her and I've experienced that problem too with this exact thing because when I found out that she did not have cancer, I reached out to my health insurance and I said, hey, I'd like to get an appointment with a counselor.

[49] And I had seen a counselor previously dealing with, you know, my friend is dying thing.

[50] So I made a phone call and they said, oh, well, he doesn't have any appointments for six weeks.

[51] And I said, lady, you know, my, I just found out my best friend has been baking cancer for four years and that she has fictitious disorder.

[52] And I'm crying and they're like, well, we don't have any appointments.

[53] I was furious and I'm sure I yelled and said some nice, very nice things.

[54] And then I sat down and I wrote a letter to my doctor and I said, I just want you to know what's going on.

[55] This is what happened.

[56] You know, Sylvia does not have cancer.

[57] She has been cutting herself open, sewing herself back up.

[58] She never had cancer.

[59] And we just found out.

[60] And I tried to call to get an appointment to come talk to you and I can't.

[61] And I'm in terrible, I don't know what to do.

[62] I'm terribly upset.

[63] And I just thought you should know.

[64] I thought you should know that I can't get in to see you because your office won't let me. And they won't even get a message to you to tell you that there is a problem and a crisis.

[65] And I just thought you should know that.

[66] and I sealed it and I put private and personal on it.

[67] I addressed it to his office with attention to him.

[68] And four days later, he got his mail and he opened it.

[69] He called me right away and he got me in within 24 hours.

[70] You know, she did not feel good and she was sick and she was sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[71] And although she really never had cancer, you have to keep in mind that she was making herself extremely ill. She was sick.

[72] She was physically sick and mentally sick.

[73] She was taking medication to make herself sick.

[74] So although she didn't have what we thought, she still was extremely ill and she looked terrible.

[75] And so when you come over and see this person and she's, you know, I don't feel like I can go on anymore.

[76] I don't feel like I can live anymore, which is totally normal for someone who has cancer and who has no hair and who is vomiting and diarrhea.

[77] you know, 24 -7 is dehydrated and can't hardly walk and can't get out of bed and can't take care of their children.

[78] That is mentally taxing.

[79] And I remember sitting there and pulling out our health care card.

[80] And I remember even calling the different places that are in town that have inpatient, they were all full.

[81] That was the problem.

[82] It wasn't that they wouldn't, you know, her insurance wouldn't be taken.

[83] They're all full.

[84] And what you might not know is even if you go to the emergency room and say you want to harm yourself and you want to be 51 -50 all that does is they now and this has been in the last few years is all they do is they find a place a facility that has an empty bed and they put you on a 72 -hour hold and they basically put you in a room with things that you cannot harm yourself with so you cannot have shoe strings you cannot have you know all these different things but you don't get any counseling in those 72 hours It's not like you get 5150ed and they take you to a place that has a bed for you and you're going to get help within those 72 hours.

[85] No, they just keep you safe for 72 hours and then they set you up with counseling or a program or an outpatient or an inpatient program.

[86] But you don't get to talk to somebody, which is the misconception.

[87] I would think if I thought I was losing my mind and drove to the emergency room and asked to be 5150ed, I would think I would get to talk to a counselor.

[88] that is not the case.

[89] The whole healthcare system with mental health is so completely broken.

[90] And let's face it, when you're having a crisis and you're a person that is having an issue and a trauma, you wait to call for help until you can't take it anymore, until you can't deal with it anymore, until you feel broken and that you're going to snap and have and break.

[91] And then it takes six weeks to get in to see somebody.

[92] And that is the standard of care.

[93] Yeah, my doctor got my letter.

[94] How many people do you know that think to write their doctor a personal letter, a market, private personal, and then have their doctor call them?

[95] That was a random thought that happened to me that worked, thank goodness.

[96] And it was so, so helpful to get to talk to him because he is the one that told me, you cannot rationalize irrational behavior so in your rational head right now you are trying to find rational answers as to what happened and why it happened there are no rational answers because she is unrational her behavior is unrational it's not normal thinking so normal people are not going to understand that so you need to give yourself a break take a breath and know that you're not to figure this out.

[97] And that was so helpful.

[98] One day, one hour of counseling after the initial trauma was invaluable to me and to know that it's so hard to get and it shouldn't be.

[99] I went to her house and she was so sick and so like the under her eyes was like so dark and she could barely walk and I took her to the emergency room and she told them I was there in the emergency room in the bay with her and she told the nurse I have cancer I have ovarian cancer and I'm taking I'm in chemo I am taking you know these meds and she rattled off beds they refused to treat her and I remember being so confused, why are they not going to give her any medication, any pain medication, any anything?

[100] And I believe they said we can give you fluids, but that's it.

[101] You'll have to follow up with your regular doctor.

[102] Well, they had to have had, because that's where she went a lot of times, they had to have her medical record.

[103] They had to know that she did not have cancer, but I didn't know that.

[104] So in my view, I said, well, maybe they think you're, you know, a drug seeker.

[105] And so they're not going to give you any muds because, you know, you need to follow up with your cancer doctor tomorrow.

[106] But you should at least get fluids.

[107] And she literally, no, I went out of here.

[108] And I remember her peeling the, you know, the leads that are taped on you off.

[109] And I, she was like, no, we're going to get out of here.

[110] And I was like, no, you need, like, you need medical help.

[111] And I feel so embarrassed now because I know.

[112] and when I was helping her out and she couldn't even hardly walk and her arms are on my neck and I'm dragging my dying friend out of the emergency room and we're passing by the nurses and the doctor station, I looked at them and I go, you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself.

[113] You should just be ashamed.

[114] You are not helping someone who is dying of cancer.

[115] You're not giving her medical attention.

[116] You should be ashamed of yourself.

[117] This could be your mother, your daughter, you know, whatever.

[118] You should be ashamed.

[119] now I know they knew but I didn't know and then I took her home and then she said she told me that later that her husband took her to a different hospital and she got help with that she had a seizure while waiting for treatment and that her heart actually stopped during this time where she was wait like her husband took her to a different hospital where she could get care and and that during that process that her heart stopped beating and how you know horrible the other hospital was for not helping her and how she almost died from it and that her heart stopped and it was this huge thing and I was so mad you know at that other place like look at what they did and you know and things like this happened but I at the time I thought it was you know I'm mad at the doctors at that hospital but the reality is is that they have had to have known.

[120] But then why when you know something like that's going on, is there no reporting at that?

[121] Is there no follow -up on that?

[122] Or I guess if there was, I wouldn't know, because she certainly wouldn't have told us.

[123] There was like no electronic medical records at that time or very limited.

[124] So, but even if they did know, like you said, they couldn't say anything because of HIPAA laws.

[125] Like that's, they would be breaking a law because that's her personal medical information.

[126] You're not a family member.

[127] You're not like her sole care provider.

[128] And so, you know, there are laws in place that protect that.

[129] And unfortunately, I think this is one of the few times where that sort of sucks.

[130] And it could cost them their job.

[131] So I've been reading the DSM and trying to understand more about, you know, the different categories of mental disorders and personality disorders and all sorts of things to help me better understand this story.

[132] And one of the things that I am having, I guess, trouble with, understanding, and I don't know that I'll ever find the answer to it necessarily, is that she had these obvious symptoms of fictitious disorder and, like, making herself sick.

[133] She did also have a lot of malingering behaviors.

[134] that often looks to like secondary gains aside just like making yourself feel like with fictitious disorder you're feeling ill and that's a conscious process but your gain is really medical attention and the sort of sympathy of others however a lot of times it sounds like she wasn't even actually getting the medical attention she was doing it herself so I struggle with doing the research on what exactly is this?

[135] What are the gains?

[136] Like, was she a sociopath?

[137] Did she feel guilt?

[138] Was she a narcissist?

[139] Was she, she was brilliant?

[140] Which psychopaths and narcissist are usually pretty gosh darn smart.

[141] What was she?

[142] Like, what mental ailment did she have?

[143] So I'm with you.

[144] I went, I researched, and I'm still so confused on what exactly she had because we don't really know where the truth lies.

[145] She also received lots of secondary gains.

[146] In my eyes, they were not huge.

[147] She did not get a house.

[148] But I mean, she got like care packages and meals and I'm sure people gave her stuff all the time because she was bald and sick and did she feel guilty for that?

[149] Did she feel guilty after she was found out?

[150] She never wrote me a letter explaining except for that very first day that said, you know, I've come to find out I don't have cancer and then I have fictitious disorder and then I never had cancer and I want you to know I did believe I was getting all those surgeries but she never I never saw any remorse from her.

[151] She just showed a little bit of remorse, you know, with the doctor, with the letter she sent him.

[152] There seemed to be some kind of remorse there.

[153] But again, it's that hypersexuality and that men were always in the forefront for her.

[154] Like she always put men first, her husbands, her boyfriends.

[155] They all went ahead of her children and her friends and her family.

[156] So that, I think, as part of her mental illness.

[157] But I still, I'm with you.

[158] I don't know what exactly could, I mean, and she could have multiple things.

[159] Let's face it, she had to have had multiple things, but trying to understand them, it's easier if it was just Munchausen and she's hurting herself for the attention.

[160] But it really wasn't just that.

[161] And it really wasn't just the fictitious disorder.

[162] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[163] She had been under the influence that she left him there.

[164] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[165] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[166] What happens next?

[167] Depends on who you ask.

[168] Was it a crime of passion?

[169] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[170] This was clearly an intentional act.

[171] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[172] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[173] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[174] Everyone had an opinion.

[175] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[176] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[177] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[178] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[179] Join Wondery Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcast, or Spotify.

[180] I'm Dan Tiberggy.

[181] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[182] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[183] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[184] She's like, I can't.

[185] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[186] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[187] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[188] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[189] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[190] Yeah, yeah, well, yeah.

[191] No, it's hysteria.

[192] It's all in your head.

[193] It's not physical.

[194] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[195] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[196] Or is it something else entirely?

[197] Something's wrong here.

[198] Something's not right.

[199] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[200] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[201] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[202] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[203] I think that we need to hold people accountable that do this, not vendettively or viciously, but when you know something like this has happened and through my own listening to the news and research, I find that it happens with nurses sometimes on my research.

[204] It seems like I've heard a lot of stories.

[205] I don't believe these people should be able to be practicing medicine.

[206] And I think that we have to hold people accountable for their actions.

[207] that do this.

[208] How is that, what does that look like?

[209] I guess it would depend on the person and the situation, but I feel like you can't have these people taking care of other people and doing things with other people and absolute mind control and manipulation that happens to make these things happen.

[210] And I think that, you know, there has to be something we can do.

[211] I felt like, gosh, you know, I was really trying to, with the nursing board and stuff.

[212] And like, what I called social services for the children and they did not care social services did not care at all and i'm like do you understand what i'm telling you that she told her children she was dying for four years and she caught herself open and sold herself back up and she has her children like how can you guys not they did nothing because they didn't have proof no they didn't even investigate they didn't even And so the system's broken there.

[213] I just consumed all of my thoughts and energy, just trying to understand, you know, how someone could do this to other people.

[214] And then, you know, eventually you just realize, you know, I'm never going to understand.

[215] There's not one person that exists that knows all of the truth except for Sylvia.

[216] I mean, thinking about it, you know, so much over the years, I just had to learn that I can't take it.

[217] personally what happened to me. She was mentally ill and it had nothing, you know, really to do with me all these lies and stuff and that I just, I couldn't take it as a personal attack on me what happened and just know that she was sick and it's something that happened and I just had to move on.

[218] How has this experience changed you?

[219] I definitely don't let people in as much, which I think is good.

[220] I still probably try to take care of people a little too much, but I, that's my nature.

[221] That's who I am.

[222] So that's just the way it is.

[223] But I do, I think that I learned a big lesson and I learned not to put anybody ahead of my own family.

[224] And I learned that people lie and that even the sweetest person that you think, the sweetest person on the planet, they can lie and deceive and steal and rob and cheat and, you know, that's the thing.

[225] It's, I mean, she was the sweetest young woman and beautiful and nice and kind.

[226] She was never mean to me. She was never, she never had a mean word to say, you know, how you sometimes bicker with friends.

[227] Never, nothing, never a mean word to me, nothing.

[228] Had no clue.

[229] I had no idea this was.

[230] going on.

[231] I had no signs this was going on.

[232] Nobody did.

[233] I was thinking about some of the other aspects of this and the fallout after we found out about Sylvia and telling people and explaining to people what happened and the guilt I felt for dragging my coworkers into this and dragging my family into this and my friends into this.

[234] I know, it wasn't my fault that this happened and that you know my friend had you know fictitious disorder and munchausen and I know that isn't my fault I do know that on a on a level but I really pulled in my co -workers to help so like I led the troops I was come on you guys everybody get on the meal train come on you guys let's help move because I believe in the you know it takes a village mentality and it takes a village to raise our children and a community and like if you know someone's painting their house you go and you help them because you are hopeful that someone will come and help you so that's just always been my way of things and I really did suck the people into helping and my family I sacrificed my own family and I you know had them helping me buy things do things you know helping going over there and the guilt I felt that I did all that and then I sucked all those people in and you know I did have the thought why didn't I see this why didn't I know why, how could I not know that these things were not real?

[235] How could, how did I not see this for four years?

[236] And then I also, at the exact same moment, had solace knowing that she went to a counselor and that the counselor didn't see it.

[237] And they are, that is their job.

[238] So that was helpful that I had that person, you know, that I knew that they believed her too and that we all believed her.

[239] I mean, everybody believed her.

[240] Nobody doubted her, but I still had really bad guilt.

[241] The damage I did to my child by dragging my child through that four years with me, thick in it, and I made her help me. Like, no, you're going to help me. Do these dishes.

[242] Do this, run this vacuum.

[243] Or, no, now you have to help me at home because we were over there.

[244] So we have to, you know.

[245] And my, you know, my sweet child has such a huge heart.

[246] And she loved Sylvia.

[247] She loved those children.

[248] And I put my daughter in that situation.

[249] My mom's my best friend.

[250] So it's just hard to see someone you love go through such heartbreak and loss.

[251] Because if you think about it, even though she didn't necessarily pass away with us, I mean, that's what happened though.

[252] She was no longer in her life abruptly.

[253] We had to grieve it on her own.

[254] Yeah.

[255] When things get so dark and twisty with the whole situation that happened, it's like, well, was there a funeral?

[256] Then you're like second -guessing everything in your head.

[257] And so it's like, oh, okay, well, if I was there, and maybe in my head I could process it more as, okay, yeah, this is validated.

[258] You know, I have some closure now.

[259] I know this has happened, so now I can move on and grieve.

[260] I felt like I was really close with them.

[261] I mean, I wish at least the kids could have kept in contact, not only just with me, but, like, again, with, like, everybody from the hospital, all of us kids, like, we were there together.

[262] We did Easters together.

[263] We did events at the hospital together.

[264] And it's, like, oh, and it's like, okay, well, this is also an abrupt loss for you.

[265] So not only have you lost one person, you've lost the entire family.

[266] You and my mom are both in paths, so we feel what other people feel.

[267] And then somebody I love is so sick.

[268] There's nothing I can do to fix that, though, or really to help the diagnosis that she said.

[269] was bad so it's like I have nothing I can do to help but you know almost take the pain your feeling and then put it on myself and like it's hard for us too on top of us we have autoimmune diseases so like it makes us more tired where we have way more chronic fatigue I feel like we're more our moods are more elevated it's it's a traumatic experience at the end of the day afterwards and that's hard the horrible grief when I found out my friend was you know had cancer and was dying and then I had horrible grief, you know, when I found out that she wasn't dying and that she was mentally ill. That was the whole death in itself to me. That was the death of my friendship and I never saw her again.

[270] And then I had the whole grief thing again when she did die and the whole, there's never going to be answers.

[271] And so that was three, I had three different sessions of grief to go through.

[272] And they were all horrible and they were all traumatic and it was the same person in three grief cycles.

[273] What made you want to tell your story?

[274] I always wanted to be able to tell it in my own voice and I didn't want somebody else changing my words or my feelings by editing.

[275] And so I think it was too soon before now because I wasn't in a good place with it and that would be something I want to share that like I am in a good place now and I am okay with it now.

[276] It was a terrible thing that happened to me and sometimes it feels unbelievable, but I am over it.

[277] I did learn from it and I haven't moved on from it.

[278] And that people that are in the thick of that when that happens to you, you can recover, you can move on.

[279] It's a lesson, you know, there are some people out there that will do and say anything.

[280] And, you know, I feel really sorry for her ex -husband and I feel sorry that I doubted him and thought he was a douchebag.

[281] I'm not sure he was a douchebag.

[282] He may have been, but I don't think so.

[283] I think that we were all told things to keep us in our box.

[284] It's hard to summarize how I feel about this story.

[285] At first, it was so easy for me to hate Sylvia, especially after hearing the things she had done to her children.

[286] Over time and through deeper understanding, I began to feel complete pity for her simultaneously.

[287] If you are mentally ill enough to be cutting and sewing yourself up while emotionally abusing your children, you're probably either evil or psychologically unwell.

[288] And yet as much as I empathize and sympathize that Sylvia was mentally unwell, I still feel utter heartbreak and anger for her children.

[289] To hear her daughter on that video talk show clip was unreal levels of sadness.

[290] And then there's tea and her family and all of their own heartache and trauma.

[291] I've only known her for a few months, but I can tell you that she's an incredible person.

[292] Just yesterday I had to put our family dog down, Maya, only a few days after my father -in -law, Papa, just died.

[293] And she helped me find an organization that would come put Maya down in a peaceful way.

[294] A few months ago, she offered help when we had another personal family issue to deal with, and she completely saved us.

[295] She's just one of those weird freak of nature humans that give a genuine fuck about other people, so much so that despite herself being sick, with multiple autoimmune diseases, She took care of her sick coworker and friend for years out of the goodness of her heart.

[296] And even after this took place, she went back to school to better understand psychology and mental health.

[297] She's gone to therapy and chooses now to use her story to help other people.

[298] And though I am devastated that any of this actually took place in real life, and that T went through this trauma, and that Sylvia's kids went through this trauma, and that Sylvia went through this trauma, and everybody else who was affected in the wake of this horrible thing.

[299] I'm so thankful that I got to tell this story, and I'm very thankful that I got to know tea.

[300] And like life, there are so many unknowns that will forever go unanswered.

[301] Was Sylvia lying sociopath or a mentally unwell person with fictitious disorder abusing medications?

[302] Is she both?

[303] Can you be both?

[304] No, seriously, I'm asking.

[305] I don't know.

[306] Can you let me know?

[307] Sadly, I desire to believe that Sylvia passed away due to years of abuse she put her body through instead of the thought that she killed herself and let her young daughter be the one to find her dead body.

[308] We will never know.

[309] A lot of people loved Sylvia and simultaneously she left a massive amount of emotional damage and destruction for those that loved her.

[310] There are some answers we simply cannot find and I'm working on figuring out how to accept these kinds of unknowns.

[311] Learning to accept what cannot be changed and it fucking blows.

[312] you think you know me you don't know me well at all you think you know me you don't know me well thank you to tea kurt sarah and jen for participating in this series tea and i will be recording a q and a episode soon if you have a question you can send it via email Instagram or by calling or texting 1 .323379 -5678.

[313] Thank you so much.

[314] Something Was Wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[315] All of the music by Gladrags.

[316] Hear their album Wonder Under on iTunes.

[317] Follow the hashtag Something Was Wrong Pod on Instagram.

[318] You can now purchase something was wrong merch at sww .w. threadless .com.

[319] The books referenced on this show can be found linked in the show notes.

[320] If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 safe.

[321] That's 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[322] Thank you.

[323] If you'd like to help support the show, please consider leaving a five -star review on iTunes and sharing the book.

[324] podcast with your family and friends and neighbor and garbage man and gynecologist and record producer and ex -boyfriend no don't do that um yeah just like everyone you know that'd be cool thank you love you bye if you like something was wrong you can listen early and ad free right now by by by joining Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[325] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music.

[326] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

[327] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[328] I'm Sachi Cole.

[329] And I'm Sarah Hagey.

[330] And we're the host of Scam Fluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

[331] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[332] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[333] To the infamous scams of real housewife stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[334] Follow scam influencers on the Wendry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[335] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.